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Author Topic: Rhe RED Med format  (Read 78104 times)

Carsten W

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« Reply #140 on: November 17, 2008, 11:55:55 am »

Quote from: foto-z
Not everything is as it appears...

You mean, GM will somehow magically survive?  
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TMARK

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« Reply #141 on: November 17, 2008, 12:32:55 pm »

Quote from: foto-z
Not everything is as it appears...

Oh, OK.  You are speaking as in Lacanian terms, yes yes?  Perhaps our friend Schoepenhauer?  Die Welt als Will und Vorstellung?
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stevephoto

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« Reply #142 on: November 17, 2008, 12:37:14 pm »

Quote from: carstenw
You mean, GM will somehow magically survive?  

GM can survive, at least in some form, just the shareholders/bondholders who would take a hit

a car company is valuable to an economy and more importantly a government, does have the ability to churn billions when its on a roll and has valuable assets, apart from its management of course!

i would rather be the head of GM phoning the US president for help, than a medium format camera manufacturer calling his local bank manager, or relying on friendly investment from a potentially unfriendly investor!

when camera equipment does cost so much and does equate to a large percentage of photographer's annual earnings and where the photographer is seeking to amortise that expense against unknown earnings in the future, it probably is right for them to at least take a view of any company's viability going forward
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bcooter

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« Reply #143 on: November 18, 2008, 12:02:24 am »

Quote from: foto-z
Not everything is as it appears...


this is probably true, especially in medium format, due to the lack of transparency in the information the buyers receive.

case in point.  is sinar's new relationship with leaf mean that all or part or any of the sinar line will be discontinued.  

an answer to this probably shouldn't matter much to a buyer until you get to the point of writing a $30,000 or more check for the camera, then ongoing support and most importantly development of your system is important.

photokina is a great example of this.  can anyone read the announcements from this show and base their present and future buying decisions.   will phase have leica lenses for the mamiya, will the lecia s2 tether to 4.5.2 or .3 or .4.   since the red announcement, will any medium format camera offer video as an option.

medium format has a history of getting 90% there and then going on to the next new product, leaving their customers with the option of workarounds or spending more money to continue to upgrade.

so yes, not everything is as it appears, but where do you go to get the actual facts, before your spend the money.

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AndreNapier

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« Reply #144 on: November 18, 2008, 12:51:48 am »

Quote from: Imaginara
In some of the dresses and outfits i've had to shoot, moving is the LAST thing the model will be doing

When shooting a composed image of a model for advertising with product placement and using wide angle lens like 35HC, one inch  of movement of a model accounts for a difference between great shot and total crap. Different tools for different jobs. It is and always will be this way. I see a long life for DB's,  at least as long as the generation of the older photogs  who will not pick up DSLR .
« Last Edit: November 18, 2008, 01:09:22 am by AndreNapier »
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thsinar

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« Reply #145 on: November 18, 2008, 05:13:48 am »

bcooter,

I don't know who told you this, or where you did read it, but I wish to firmly deny this comment or claim:

Sinar is discontinuing nothing.

I have been telling this the very same day of the partnership announcement during Photokina, and it was pretty clear from our side, with an OFFICIAL disclaimer from Sinar directly.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote from: bcooter
case in point.  is sinar's new relationship with leaf mean that all or part or any of the sinar line will be discontinued.
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Thierry Hagenauer
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bcooter

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« Reply #146 on: November 18, 2008, 02:15:59 pm »

Quote from: thsinar
bcooter,

I don't know who told you this, or where you did read it, but I wish to firmly deny this comment or claim:

Sinar is discontinuing nothing.

I have been telling this the very same day of the partnership announcement during Photokina, and it was pretty clear from our side, with an OFFICIAL disclaimer from Sinar directly.

Best regards,
Thierry


my post wasn't specific only to sinar, it was directed to the digital camera market and most specifically to medium format.

be realistic, there is not one manufacturer that hasn't announced something that is not yet in the dealers or at least in the market in full working order.  lenses, software, new cameras, backs, accessories and associations.

phase made public an association with mamiya a year or so before anything was actually presented, much less sold, your own company has your newest 31mpx back shown at the last two photo trade shows, photo plus and photokina and still is working out the bugs.

your company made a joint announcement with leaf, but the specifics are still forthcoming.

that seems to be the norm with medium format and though the dslr makers have had their own set of issues, they seem to be much quicker and more complete from announcement to delivery than medium format.  there probably is some kind of lesson to be learned from that.

on this site there is a phase/schneider user with a system that doesn't work.  the phase rep says it's schneider's problem, but regardless of who's at fault,  there is at least one user out there that spent $30,000 for a camera, pushed the button and it doesn't work.

saying that doesn't mean phase is a bad company, or mistakes can't happen but do you see the point in why so many photographers are really concerned about their medium format purchases.

theirry, for you any mention of sinar seems to bring out a quick response, but step back for a moment and put yourself in the buyers position and while your doing this, look at why by all accounts sinar's sales are below the other three makers of medium format.

it's almost funny that the red announcement brings out so much intense scrutiny by loyalist of other brands.   red, making a two year prior press release is no different than what medium format has done for it's history.

maybe two or three years ago $30,000 was an easy investment for a photographer to make, but in today's changing business climate and the fact that everyone seems to be adding some form of video or motion device to their still cameras, investing $30,000 makes most of us think about waiting until we see how things shake out.

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gwhitf

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« Reply #147 on: November 18, 2008, 02:18:25 pm »

Quote from: bcooter
maybe two or three years ago $30,000 was an easy investment for a photographer to make, but in today's changing business climate and the fact that everyone seems to be adding some form of video or motion device to their still cameras, investing $30,000 makes most of us think about waiting until we see how things shake out.

http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2008/11/17/...rm-has-arrived/
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bcooter

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« Reply #148 on: November 18, 2008, 02:58:08 pm »

Quote from: gwhitf
http://blog.vincentlaforet.com/2008/11/17/...rm-has-arrived/



if you boil vincent's blog down to just a few sentences it would say, don't anticipate anything and be prepared to offer your client more.

I find it interesting that so many people on this thread are so opposed to a fast fps still or video camera (if video is the correct word).

today we finished shooting a project and on the ride to the next location I mentioned to the art director about a new still camera that will shoot 40 or 50 fps.

he said wow, we would never miss a movement or expression.   if I had mentioned this two years ago he probably would have said, hell, who wants to edit 40 fps.

the art director, just like us, has more pressure than ever to deliver that one decisive, incredible moment and whether we get there by skill, luck or talent or equipment it is important to him and his client that we get the shot.

tonight we we reviewed today's shoot the art director mentioned how great it would be if some of the scenes were in motion and could be used for video playback.  he saw value in that and even though his agency and the company they represent has no specific media plan for moving imagery for this project, they sure as heck would love to have it, especially if it could be shot continuous with the stills.

that's what I think the red will offer and maybe even the canon 5dII.

more value for the money, more bang for the buck.

what I don't understand is the resistance.  nobody is going to make a still photographer have motion camera capabiltiies, but I think all of should be aware that very soon, few still photographers won't have some type of camera in their kit that will allow motion or at least the assurance of almost always capturing the moment.

it's surely worth thinking about.

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hubell

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« Reply #149 on: November 18, 2008, 03:48:43 pm »

Quote from: bcooter
today we finished shooting a project and on the ride to the next location I mentioned to the art director about a new still camera that will shoot 40 or 50 fps.

he said wow, we would never miss a movement or expression.   if I had mentioned this two years ago he probably would have said, hell, who wants to edit 40 fps.

the art director, just like us, has more pressure than ever to deliver that one decisive, incredible moment and whether we get there by skill, luck or talent or equipment it is important to him and his client that we get the shot.

tonight we we reviewed today's shoot the art director mentioned how great it would be if some of the scenes were in motion and could be used for video playback.  he saw value in that and even though his agency and the company they represent has no specific media plan for moving imagery for this project, they sure as heck would love to have it, especially if it could be shot continuous with the stills.

that's what I think the red will offer and maybe even the canon 5dII.

more value for the money, more bang for the buck.

what I don't understand is the resistance.  nobody is going to make a still photographer have motion camera capabiltiies, but I think all of should be aware that very soon, few still photographers won't have some type of camera in their kit that will allow motion or at least the assurance of almost always capturing the moment.

it's surely worth thinking about.

Sounds quite stressful to me. [G] Thirty minutes of shooting a model at 40 FPS comes out to 48,000 frames to choose from in deciding what frame best captures what you want. I take maybe 30 shots of a group of trees that are standing still over a 30 minute period and it takes me days to figure out which of the 30 I like best, or that I really don't like any of them very much.

Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #150 on: November 18, 2008, 04:30:43 pm »

Quote from: hcubell
Sounds quite stressful to me. [G] Thirty minutes of shooting a model at 40 FPS comes out to 48,000 frames to choose from in deciding what frame best captures what you want.

Yep, it's amazing that the same people who write endlessly about needing faster workflows are the same ones dying to sort through tens of thousands of frames. No thanks!
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Carsten W

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« Reply #151 on: November 18, 2008, 04:53:23 pm »

Quote from: hcubell
Sounds quite stressful to me. [G] Thirty minutes of shooting a model at 40 FPS comes out to 48,000 frames to choose from in deciding what frame best captures what you want. I take maybe 30 shots of a group of trees that are standing still over a 30 minute period and it takes me days to figure out which of the 30 I like best, or that I really don't like any of them very much.

I don't think that this is what anyone is suggesting, and in fact, someone has already refuted it. It is not about filming a whole session, just about squirting out sequences where before a single frame would be shot. You might make 3-5 second bursts of a particular movement, and then stop again.

As you and Graham point out, there will be more frames to sort through, even if it isn't 48000. I don't think that the same still photography tools which are in use now could feasibly do the job. There would be a need for new tools, more in line with Final Cut Pro combined with Capture One, or something like that. Some way of scrubbing fast through a sequence, back and forth, until the best moment has been isolated, and then stepping through the last few shots to get the best one. If the machines are fast, it could work.

I can see where a certain type of customer might find that attractive, but it is not clear to me what proportion of the current market would be interested in/demand such a workflow though, or the short animations coming out of it.
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samuel_js

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« Reply #152 on: November 18, 2008, 05:04:19 pm »

Quote from: bcooter
he said wow, we would never miss a movement or expression.   if I had mentioned this two years ago he probably would have said, hell, who wants to edit 40 fps.

the art director, just like us, has more pressure than ever to deliver that one decisive, incredible moment and whether we get there by skill, luck or talent or equipment it is important to him and his client that we get the shot.

I can see why people want to add video to complete different productions but suggesting that video cameras can replace photo cameras is insane.
If you want something able to "capture the moment" put the money in a good photographer instead. End of story.
If you think a video camera is the solution you're totally wrong.
Just my opinion...

« Last Edit: November 18, 2008, 05:10:35 pm by samuel_js »
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Tim Lüdin

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« Reply #153 on: November 18, 2008, 05:36:11 pm »

Quote from: foto-z
Yep, it's amazing that the same people who write endlessly about needing faster workflows are the same ones dying to sort through tens of thousands of frames. No thanks!

You guys just dont wanna get it?! It reminds me of the old film versus digital discussions. You all know how it turned out.
With a RED epic you will have the total freedom of shooting what you want/need on a high-end level.
I'm a DP and photographer and I'm totaly stoked about the idea about filming an ad and also take some stills in
the same setup only a few seconds after filming. Or the other way around with the same tool.
Nobody is going to look throug millions of frames, that's total bull. You will shoot only the stuff you need at the time. I have done that before with my RED one.
It's like working with MF. Your shooting style is very precise. Only a few seconds here and there. Exactly like in the filmbusiness. No time and money for fooling around and shooting tons of footage.
 
From the moment you decide to shot some stills with a RED, the talent has to act like on a photoshoot.
If you want some film sequences, the talent brings some more motion in to play. Very easy for them.

In the last weeks I have been on many sets where we had to shoot motion and still on the same day, in the same sets with
the same talents. Ads that will end up on  the web, tv, movietheaters and end up as big printcampagnes.
An Epic will save the producers money and give them total flexebility.
As I wrote it earlier, the big ad agencys here in switzerland already smelled the cookie.
They are talking about it already and Switzerland is not LA.

I work in both worlds and I think that things will change faster than you can say what...
Nothing to be afraid of. Just more possebilities and I love that.

Tim





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Morgan_Moore

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« Reply #154 on: November 18, 2008, 06:11:56 pm »

Quote from: Tim Lüdin
You guys just dont wanna get it?! It reminds me of the old film versus digital discussions. You all know how it turned out.
With a RED epic you will have the total freedom of shooting what you want/need on a high-end level.
I'm a DP and photographer and I'm totaly stoked about the idea about filming an ad and also take some stills in
the same setup only a few seconds after filming. Or the other way around with the same tool.
Nobody is going to look throug millions of frames, that's total bull. You will shoot only the stuff you need at the time. I have done that before with my RED one.
It's like working with MF. Your shooting style is very precise. Only a few seconds here and there. Exactly like in the filmbusiness. No time and money for fooling around and shooting tons of footage.
 
From the moment you decide to shot some stills with a RED, the talent has to act like on a photoshoot.
If you want some film sequences, the talent brings some more motion in to play. Very easy for them.

In the last weeks I have been on many sets where we had to shoot motion and still on the same day, in the same sets with
the same talents. Ads that will end up on  the web, tv, movietheaters and end up as big printcampagnes.
An Epic will save the producers money and give them total flexebility.
As I wrote it earlier, the big ad agencys here in switzerland already smelled the cookie.
They are talking about it already and Switzerland is not LA.

I work in both worlds and I think that things will change faster than you can say what...
Nothing to be afraid of. Just more possebilities and I love that.

Tim

Absolutley.

Its just efficiency - my whole line on this economy thing is not that I will cut rates but will embrace technology to bring the client more

Like the nikon D3 - the ISO cuts lighting and tripod time (I dont use one) and therefor means I can shoot more per day - great for the client

At the moment (and for a while) budget requires me to use two tools D3 EX1, but that will change.. I would swap em for a red (if it had AF ! )



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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #155 on: November 18, 2008, 06:14:22 pm »

Quote from: Tim Lüdin
You guys just dont wanna get it?! It reminds me of the old film versus digital discussions. You all know how it turned out.

It's nothing like digital and film. Maybe you just don't get it, or maybe your needs just happen to coincide with what Red offers. As I keep saying, Red looks great for video but not as a still camera.

- I want an optical viewfinder. Anything else is a joke.
- I want a smaller lighter camera, not MUCH bigger and heavier like Red
- I want less time spent on workflow and archiving, not more
- I need a camera which can work with flash (apparently Red needs continuous light)
- Red is more expensive than even today's MF digital cameras, never mind what we will have in 2 years
- the ISO range, image quality, and range of shutter speeds are as yet unknown

What's hard to understand about that?

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Morgan_Moore

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« Reply #156 on: November 18, 2008, 06:16:38 pm »

Quote from: carstenw
it is not clear to me what proportion of the current market would be interested in  .... the short animations coming out of it.

A soon as one fashion house website puts a dress picture in thier online catalogue where you mouse over and the model spins or continues down the catwalk everyone will want it - my guess

same with products

S
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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

Morgan_Moore

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« Reply #157 on: November 18, 2008, 06:22:19 pm »

Quote from: foto-z
It's nothing like digital and film. Maybe you just don't get it, or maybe your needs just happen to coincide with what Red offers. As I keep saying, Red looks great for video but not as a still camera.

- I want an optical viewfinder. Anything else is a joke.
- I want a smaller lighter camera, not MUCH bigger and heavier like Red
- I want less time spent on workflow and archiving, not more
- I need a camera which can work with flash (apparently Red needs continuous light)
- Red is more expensive than even today's MF digital cameras, never mind what we will have in 2 years
- the ISO range, image quality, and range of shutter speeds are as yet unknown

What's hard to understand about that?

Mr Z

All of those things are problems of first generation of the technology - you have legitimate reservations and requirements

Maybe you were on here in 1999 saying 'digital sounds cool but  1.4mp doesnt cut it - my clients want a 50mb scan'

indeed that was a valid statement but the next generations of the technology did deliver - the 1dsmk5 or D4x will be the show stopper not the RED

The red reminds me of the early Digital backs  - remember them - insane money -  thethered only - workflow hell - crop sensors - 25ISO - but a great image could be extracted by those on  'the bleeding edge'

S
« Last Edit: November 18, 2008, 06:26:53 pm by Morgan_Moore »
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #158 on: November 18, 2008, 06:23:04 pm »

Quote from: Morgan_Moore
A soon as one fashion house website puts a dress picture in thier online catalogue where you mouse over and the model spins or continues down the catwalk everyone will want it - my guess

same with products

S

Seems like serious overkill for web use. You can already take a still from 1080p and you have all you need for a webpage.
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #159 on: November 18, 2008, 06:26:40 pm »

Quote from: Morgan_Moore
Mr Z

All of those things are problems of first generation of the technology - you have legitimate reservations and requirements

Maybe you were on here in 1999 saying 'digital sounds cool but  1.4mp doesnt cut it - my clients want a 50mb scan'

indeed that was a valid statement but the next generations of the technology did deliver - the 1dsmk5 or D4x will be the show stopper not the RED

S

All true, so why are some people here getting so excited about these Red models killing off medium format digital? Just crazy.
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