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Author Topic: Rhe RED Med format  (Read 82093 times)

DesW

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« Reply #100 on: November 15, 2008, 04:57:52 pm »

Quote from: gwhitf
One question I have: How much longer will Print really hang on? Because for web or cell phone, the Canon is like shooting 8x10 film for a postage stamp size. Massive overkill. But for print, there's still something nice about knowing you've got all kinds of headroom in a P45 file. The 1ds3 is still a tad iffy, when there's a lot of retouch involved. If I was Phase and Hassie, I'd be praying for long lives for the magazine industry.
I look at so much of media on the web and TV now. Very rarely even see a magazine any more. I walked into a Borders Bookstore last week, and saw a shrink wrapped thick magazine, with lush CMYK printing and nice paper, and I thought to myself, "My God, that magazine should cost a hundred dollars to produce, (compared to Web)". I just don't have high hopes for magazines -- too much production and distribution costs, just to read about Britney or Nicole.
.

Hi, Yes in Australia the  largest publisher of magazines is already feeling the pinch

Des


ASX / MEDIA RELEASE
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
27 OCTOBER 2008
UPDATE ON PBL MEDIA
SYDNEY: Consolidated Media Holdings Limited (CMH) (ASX: CMJ) announces
today that, further to its ASX announcement of 23 October 2008, the CMH Board has
resolved that CMH does not intend to contribute any further funding to PBL Media.
Accordingly, any additional capital contribution to PBL Media by its major shareholder Red
Earth Holdings B.V. an entity owned by funds advised by CVC Asia Pacific and CVC Capital
Partners (CVC) will dilute CMH’s shareholding.
Mr James Packer and Mr John Alexander, and their alternates Mr Chris Anderson and Mr
Martin Dalgleish, have resigned today with immediate effect from the PBL Media group’s
boards – PBL Media Holdings Pty Limited, PBL Media Finance Holdings Pty Limited and
PBL Media Group Limited. CMH no longer has any board representatives on the boards of
the PBL Media group.
Change to accounting treatment of PBL Media
As CMH no longer has significant influence over its investment in PBL Media, the CMH
Board has resolved to change the manner in which it accounts for PBL Media.
CMH shall cease equity accounting for its 25 per cent ordinary shareholding in PBL Media.
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jjj

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« Reply #101 on: November 15, 2008, 08:37:33 pm »

Quote from: gwhitf
Would it really affect my business if filmmakers had the capability to shoot high quality stills?
Remember film and the stills photographer also using 35mm film at same time? Though stills 35mm is slightly bigger BTW.
Quote
If I'm an advertising photographer, and Ad Agency A is doing a campaign that involves both print, web, and TV, then would the agency just pulls the stills off the Red Camera from the film crew? They might.
In order to save money in the wrong place yes, that will happen.


Quote from: E_Edwards
As those in the know have remarked, the procedure to create a single still advertising image is completely different from producing a video clip. I think by and large it will be kept separate. The moving image is very forgiving. Still images require perfection in one frame.  In most cases this kind of perfection is not obtained by "grabbing a frame"
And is why on film sets there is always a stills photographer to do the stills images for 3 reasons.
Firstly, better quality as a low shutter speed and movement does not make for sharp images. It may look OK whilst moving, but once frozen, not so hot. Using higher shutter speeds whilst filming won't help, as that doesn't look nice for moving imagery.
Secondly when I do film stills, I rearange the actors, set up shots that haven't even been filmed in order to tell the story of film or scene in a single frame. This allows better composition and also composition for inclusion of graphics. Plus a film is a series of edited together shots and so for stills you often need to conflate those elements in a way that makes sense as a single shot.
However for advertising, that is probably less relevent as graphics will often be part of shoot and individual shots in the normally short sequnce will tend to be more striking.
Finally vertical shots! Film's not so good there as eveyrthing is set up for horizontal shooting and cropping frame grabs makes for even poorer quality.
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billy

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« Reply #102 on: November 16, 2008, 01:01:39 am »

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PeterA

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« Reply #103 on: November 16, 2008, 02:14:13 am »

Still shooters are going to be gone within 10 years if they are stars and much sooner if they are not. The 645 and 617 chips will prove the paradigm shift as the technology delivers mind blowing HD capability. Like traditional photography - without the burden of analogue design hassles ( mirrors etc)  - view camera movements are a mere lego step away with these new systems - every aspect of film and photography will be challenged and won over by this technology. I think working pros have about a year to get their act together - after which anyone not on top of the convergence technology will be struggling firstly from lacking the flexibility to deliver to clients what they want and secondly from being left behind in the creativity stakes.

Each year thousands of tech savy graduates are pumped out from film and photography schools - none of these people are burdened by the facts of history - all of them wish to use the best technology they can to find a voice and express themselves. Personally,  I am fortunate not having to 'earn' a living shooting and can just shoot for personal satisfaction and the occasional editorial type ad for the fun of it. If I had to earn a living as a photographer, I would already be skilling up or preparing to exit.

I am already saving for the 617 version of this tech - in landscape/street/environmental/wildlife/documentary shooting scenarios this tech will chew up and spit out any competition from day one.

The MFD back makers as of two weeks ago all have the clock ticking now. Of course people will scoff at these opinions - vested interests have an interest in putting down serious challengers. I am looking forward to following developments in this area over teh next 2 years - what fun!
« Last Edit: November 16, 2008, 02:15:39 am by PeterA »
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Dustbak

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« Reply #104 on: November 16, 2008, 02:52:33 am »

In 1995 I worked for a company that specialized in digital transactional services (amongst others eCash, eg. digital money). At that stage being young and inexperienced we believed there would be no cash money anymore within 10 to 15 years (cash does cost around 1-2% GNP in most countries hence big financial incentives).

Now, I still am a firm believer that cash will disappear eventually but I found fundamental things like this take much longer to change than one that can see the future is willing to believe.

Since 1995 the world has seen many tech savvy ecomerce graduates but many I have met don't have a clue

Yes, there will be a convergence but a what pace? I don't know and I think nobody does. I am convinced it will take longer than many expect. I am preparing myself for it as well because I believe it is also a nice addition but with what will I start. More likely the 5DMkII than a Red but who knows. There will always be a need for image material no matter how it has been created.
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bcooter

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« Reply #105 on: November 16, 2008, 03:41:37 am »

Quote from: PeterA
Each year thousands of tech savy graduates are pumped out from film and photography schools - none of these people are burdened by the facts of history -


of the assistants I hire worldwide, few if any are fond of video.   they studied to be still photographers, that is their goal, for most their passion.

I really thought it would be the opposite, given they have grown up with video games and an lcd in every room, car and hand, but few have a desire to be a video director or shoot motion.

in fact, most haven't really fallen in love with digital and prefer to shoot their old rzs and film cameras given the money or opportunity.  yes they all shoot with a 5d or a d something, but given their choice for personal work, they use film.

regardless, technology will make parallel productions available, though it will be the paying clients that either drive video into the realm of print or not.  by the time these assistants become full fledged working photographers, or image makers they may be shooting motion, whether they prefer it or not.

right now I doubt seriously if gucchi, h+m, macy's ,wallmart are all ditiching print advertising and in-store and putting up 6 ft. lcd screens and only web based material, but many retailers and manufacturers are selling more and more on the web and a lot of brick and mortar stores have moved their previous catalog money to the web.

as primarily a still photographer, obviously I am biased toward stills as I find something captivating in a still image I don't see in motion.   I was shooting in the streets of Hong Kong last week and saw a beautiful print campaign in a store window of a high end district.  it caught my attention first for the beauty of the imagery, but secondly it moved as it was linticular printing.  it actually moved in a more dramatic way than that james bond red display in times square.   I thought how cool, but then again it was more gimmick than substance as the images were strong whether they moved or not.

it is interesting that regardless of where I work or what I am hired to do, the main goal is to produce something visually interesting.  last night I had a long talk over dinner with an art director about moving imagery and he agreed that the same disciplines for still imagery do not necessarily apply to motion.   most still photographers reels have the look of stills.  beautifully crafted but they kind of have the story line of do you like my photograph, hold it, I'll move in a little closer for you to see it better.

successful motion, film or video really needs a story line.  james bond turning his head is kind of cool, but not really that impressive given it could have been shot with a dslr at 8fps and let's be honest, is anyone going to stand in the middle of times square and watch a 30 second spot?  they might watch a 4 second video but even that is asking a lot of someone on their way to work.

a lot of this falls into the area of gimmick and the advertising world loves gimmicks so he conversion from still to motion might come faster than most of us believe or want.  

what I find most interesting about all of this is how the lighting companies especially profoto have been slow to adopt hmi's and continuous sources into their lines.  from time to time I rent profoto hmis which are now officially off the market and would buy them in a minute if I could find them, but you would think given the annoucement of the 5dII and the Red there would be hmi's coming out to market daily.

I believe you will see more continuous sources soon.

to me what this really does signify, especailly the red annoucement is medium format better find a way to get their base iso settings higher, whether they go to cmos sensors or not.

if not medium format will continue to be a high light source, or still life based photography tool.

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Khun_K

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« Reply #106 on: November 16, 2008, 05:03:06 am »

Quote from: Dustbak
In 1995 I worked for a company that specialized in digital transactional services (amongst others eCash, eg. digital money). At that stage being young and inexperienced we believed there would be no cash money anymore within 10 to 15 years (cash does cost around 1-2% GNP in most countries hence big financial incentives).

Now, I still am a firm believer that cash will disappear eventually but I found fundamental things like this take much longer to change than one that can see the future is willing to believe.

Since 1995 the world has seen many tech savvy ecomerce graduates but many I have met don't have a clue

Yes, there will be a convergence but a what pace? I don't know and I think nobody does. I am convinced it will take longer than many expect. I am preparing myself for it as well because I believe it is also a nice addition but with what will I start. More likely the 5DMkII than a Red but who knows. There will always be a need for image material no matter how it has been created.
To me all the new technology is welcome.  It really depend on the creative individual or team to be inspired and make use of such new technology, and if not, it will be replaced eventually by a more effective ones.  The price of Red camera to me is really competitive, because primary they are to compare to the cinematographic equipment, not compares to stills.  what Red offer to me, is the ability to be able to also shoot still, not that they are made for still and be able to shoot motions. It is a completely different camera and type of production.  Compare to the ARRI cam and the Panavision, they are indeed inexpensive and affordable, not to mention those bloody expensive cine lenses goes around them, and we shall see a newer type of media arise by embracing the RED, a very good news for those independent film and motion picture makers.
In commercial advertising, the RED is a really new tool and the production company does not need to run the motion and later the stills for the print AD, they can probably just do that in one go, not all of them, but I think there will be a lot of them.  
On the other hand, I think we ought to thank RED for their approach to announce what they are bringing to the market so at least for professionals who shoot still have time to react and  perhaps adjust.  While we are questioning RED being making such a move and advance announcement for the product to be released in 12-19 months time in negative thinking is really beyond understanding, I cannot stop wondering if we will all be happier when RED announce the cameras, and able to take order for delivery in 3 months??
With the world quickly merged to be a much smaller community, what mattered is not really what still professional photographers want, but rather the consumer, and the generations to come to accept and expect, if we cannot adapt, then we will have the problem, not the consumer.  
In reality, I really cannot understand why having a motion picture camera that can shoot high resolution still picture will be a negative news. Yes, they will be more expensive and the production cost will also be higher, HMI versus studio flash and so on, so people who are using medium format digital will still have advantage over it on cost.  Just like the motion flash file replace some movie presentations, so the still photography is also challenging the motion picture world.
We have seen many good things happened in the industries from those well managed, highly innovative mind and well funded company to become success over short period of time because they can inspire the bigger consumer base and become success, RED is likely to be one of them.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2008, 05:11:52 am by Khun_K »
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Carsten W

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« Reply #107 on: November 16, 2008, 05:38:24 am »

I wonder how a Red DSLR setup will handle. I don't see any concessions to still photographers on their camera, ie. all the buttons which make still photography easier, like ISO, Exp Comp, etc. I have zero experience with movie cameras though. Do they even have shutter speed buttons, or is everything through a menu?
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amsp

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« Reply #108 on: November 16, 2008, 07:24:47 am »

Some people's predictions in this thread reminds me of when they said computers would make paper extinct, or that photography would make paintings obsolete.
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Morgan_Moore

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« Reply #109 on: November 16, 2008, 07:29:38 am »

Quote from: carstenw
I wonder how a Red DSLR setup will handle. I don't see any concessions to still photographers on their camera, ie. all the buttons which make still photography easier, like ISO, Exp Comp, etc. I have zero experience with movie cameras though. Do they even have shutter speed buttons, or is everything through a menu?

It shoots raw - has a fixed ISO

(like MFDBs actually ? )

Exposure comp ect are not there on proper cameras like the FM2 and left unused by me on cameras like the D3

The fact that Red unlike any other vid cams has minimal controls is great

The only parameters  in any camera still or moving are ISO, Shuter speed , FPS, aperture and position of focus ring - I dont see the need for more controls than that - I like electronic help positioning my focus ring thie only thing missing from an FM2 !

many video cameras dont allow you to control these parameters independently unlike RED

-------

Im loving that QoS poster - I wonder if DC stayed still or they morphed a head onto a still (being the first frame of the RED sequence) - that sort of thing is the future and RED is there to do it

S
« Last Edit: November 16, 2008, 07:33:44 am by Morgan_Moore »
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #110 on: November 16, 2008, 07:56:48 am »

Quote from: amsp
Some people's predictions in this thread reminds me of when they said computers would make paper extinct, or that photography would make paintings obsolete.

Exactly. Some are getting really carried away. Credit cards didn't make cash extinct. Cell phones didn't kill off land lines. TV didn't kill off radio. etc
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gwhitf

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« Reply #111 on: November 16, 2008, 09:21:24 am »

Quote from: bcooter
to me what this really does signify, especailly the red annoucement is medium format better find a way to get their base iso settings higher, whether they go to cmos sensors or not.

The exciting thing about this CMOS thing with Red is: If this guy can do a large sensor with CMOS, then for sure Canon can.

We have been hearing for years from the MF reps: CCD is so expensive and to make anything larger than almost-645 is exhorbitant. If that is true, and they seemed to have topped out at ASA 400 with a CCD, then I'm saying, maybe CCD has run its course, and it's time for CMOS to take over.

I just hope that, inside of Canon and Nikon engineering departments, there are some hungry engineers that are saying, "If this JJ guy can do a big CMOS, then we can do it BETTER". Maybe now, it's time for a true MF Canon and/or Nikon, with a full-featured camera body, and we can let these Rube Goldberg designs fall by the wayside.
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Kumar

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« Reply #112 on: November 16, 2008, 09:37:47 am »

Quote from: gwhitf
I just hope that, inside of Canon and Nikon engineering departments, there are some hungry engineers that are saying, "If this JJ guy can do a big CMOS, then we can do it BETTER". Maybe now, it's time for a true MF Canon and/or Nikon, with a full-featured camera body, and we can let these Rube Goldberg designs fall by the wayside.

What if the Nikon press conference on the 20th shows something like RED?

Kumar
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bcooter

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« Reply #113 on: November 16, 2008, 09:50:10 am »

Quote from: gwhitf
The exciting thing about this CMOS thing with Red is: If this guy can do a large sensor with CMOS, then for sure Canon can.

We have been hearing for years from the MF reps: CCD is so expensive and to make anything larger than almost-645 is exhorbitant. If that is true, and they seemed to have topped out at ASA 400 with a CCD, then I'm saying, maybe CCD has run its course, and it's time for CMOS to take over.

I just hope that, inside of Canon and Nikon engineering departments, there are some hungry engineers that are saying, "If this JJ guy can do a big CMOS, then we can do it BETTER". Maybe now, it's time for a true MF Canon and/or Nikon, with a full-featured camera body, and we can let these Rube Goldberg designs fall by the wayside.


the red and all other cameras that produce stills are different in the fact the red seems to be a movie camera that will shoot stills where the d90 and 5dII are still cameras that shoot movies.

medium format on the other hand just shoots stills.   period.

what I find most interesting about the red isn't the technology but the fact that in just  a few years they are building a complete line of cameras, basically from a clean sheet.

they have somehow foregone the natural tendencies to do things the way that were done before, with optical viewfinders, 3 ccd sensors, dealer networks, alliances with established companys, presidents, vice presidents, distributors and  reps in every market in the world, etc. etc.

in other words a clean sheet not only in engineering but in sales and support and have stepped out of the frankencamera mold to build something specifically designed for digital.

the upside to all of this is I doubt if canon or nikon is going to set on their hands and watch red claim a complete market of professional video cameras or hybrids that do both stills and video.

I also doubt if medium format is prepared to change their whole system to meet that challange.

our resident medium format hall monitor has made it clear that the computers did not end printed paper, television did not end radio, credit cards did not end cash etc. etc. and in this one instance I agree with him, though he left out the fact that computers have and will continue to marginalize print and traditional broadcast and these combination cameras will probably marginalize print advertising even further.

so with that in mind, when you take the price of the $30,000 red vs. the $30,000 medium format still camera, which one will you plan on investing in for the future?

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gwhitf

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« Reply #114 on: November 16, 2008, 10:56:51 am »

Quote from: bcooter
so with that in mind, when you take the price of the $30,000 red vs. the $30,000 medium format still camera, which one will you plan on investing in for the future?

"Uh, Bob, if it's about actual Return On Investment, I'll choose Door Number Two, which is two 5DII's, (main and backup), and three prime L Canon lenses, which brings me to about $8,500, and I'd use the other $21,500 for Testing, and for Promotion, and an efficient, well-designed website."
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rainer_v

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« Reply #115 on: November 16, 2008, 10:59:44 am »

Quote from: bcooter
so with that in mind, when you take the price of the $30,000 red vs. the $30,000 medium format still camera, which one will you plan on investing in for the future?

if u ask me i`d vote for the medium format 30.000$(€) investment, but i am in a specific market which has nearly nothing in common with fashion or "normal" product advertisement needs.
i still cant see e.g. for architecture how a red could replace mf in the hi-end sector of this. not much sense to add here moving images although for sure some people will do it as some people make a living from 360 quicktime shots.
i wonder if architecture, art and maybe a part of studio product shootings (as cars) will remain the only domain for medium format, but it cant feed probably all existing mf companies.
its the question if  in the probably decreasing mf market  will remain enough people to hold alive one, two or three of the existing mf companies.
i could imagine that in fashion the mf market will be shreddered in the next 2 - 5 years,- but....  fashion doesnt means the whole world of photography ( thanks   ) so lets see how the things will go on. there are still   the half of architecture photographers in europe ( at least ! )  working with 4x5" film, they still are alive and active and will change to digital in the next few years as i believe. hard to say how big the mf market increase will be from these people who are in the jump to go digital, it could turn out that these are not so less people.
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jing q

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« Reply #116 on: November 16, 2008, 12:58:05 pm »

actually why is it that people assume fashion is about a model moving around and a photographer snapping away? seems like such a cliche...
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witz

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« Reply #117 on: November 16, 2008, 01:30:45 pm »

It wouldn't be inaccurate to assume that I couldn't exactly not say that it is or isn't almost partially incorrect.
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E_Edwards

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« Reply #118 on: November 16, 2008, 02:18:34 pm »

One thing I would really, really like to know is what proportion of medium format backs is sold to still life, architectural, fashion, portrait, advertising or
wedding photographers.

If, for instance, it turns out that the majority of users are studio still life photographers, then the present format is not too good for the purpose, or it could be much better. Ditto for architectural photographers, they are always posting with solutions to adapt to their requirements.

Fashion?  By what I hear, there are problems with not high enough ISO, or portability, practicality, speed, etc.

Today's cameras are probably a compromise to satisfy every specialisation and I think they do reasonably well. I just cannot help thinking that if it was that easy to design and produce something offering all the features that we want, someone would've done it to gain market share and destroy the competition. I think the main problem facing medium format backs is advances in sensor design. Aren't these back makers at the mercy of Kodak and Dalsa? I think progress is likely to come quicker from brands that make their own sensors tailored to the photographic industry.





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pss

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« Reply #119 on: November 16, 2008, 02:35:12 pm »

Quote from: foto-z
Exactly. Some are getting really carried away. Credit cards didn't make cash extinct. Cell phones didn't kill off land lines. TV didn't kill off radio. etc


actually a LOT less paper is used today and almost all advertising/signage used to be done by painters....

and cell phones ARE killing off landlines....TV completely killed radio.....yes it is still around but a niche product hussling to pick up the crumbs of corporate adbudgets....

but that really isn't the point...the point is can MF afford to loose any segment of the market to anyone....and the answer is no....

that bond poster is amazing...

i am loking forward to the 5dII so i can get into the swing of things regarding video and will take a look at what RED will have to offer in a year or two....

but let's not forget that canon and sony OWN the home and professional video market so far....but being huge companies they probably never had 2 departments talk and try to put that FF sensor in a HD body....once they figure that out (and RED will definitely light a fire) they will dominate the market just like they do now.....and maybe leave the "pro" tools to RED and such....i still don't see room for phase or leaf in there.....hass will always sell cameras the leica way (the old dentist thing...) and sinar does a lot of other things....
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