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bcooter

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« Reply #120 on: November 16, 2008, 02:40:10 pm »

Quote from: gwhitf
"Uh, Bob, if it's about actual Return On Investment, I'll choose Door Number Two, which is two 5DII's, (main and backup), and three prime L Canon lenses, which brings me to about $8,500, and I'd use the other $21,500 for Testing, and for Promotion, and an efficient, well-designed website."


yes curtain #3 is probably the most selected and that's where Bob usually keeps the big prize, the unmentionable c word (canon).

of course when I said $30,000 I was just talking about the digital back, not really including the lenses, learning curve or beta testing investment, so for a lot of uses make that $40,000 to $55,000, depending on the euro, the new worldwide standard for currency calculations in the world of medium format.

the red entering the medium format world in quarter whatever 2010 probably won't change much today, but money and time spent today can alter a career.

whether you have selected curtain 3, or gone for that big ticket item behind curtain 1, it would probably be a good idea to invest $3,500 for the 5dII and also add a copy of "final cut pro for the beginner" to the list.


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pss

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« Reply #121 on: November 16, 2008, 03:59:53 pm »

Quote from: bcooter
yes curtain #3 is probably the most selected and that's where Bob usually keeps the big prize, the unmentionable c word (canon).

of course when I said $30,000 I was just talking about the digital back, not really including the lenses, learning curve or beta testing investment, so for a lot of uses make that $40,000 to $55,000, depending on the euro, the new worldwide standard for currency calculations in the world of medium format.

the red entering the medium format world in quarter whatever 2010 probably won't change much today, but money and time spent today can alter a career.

whether you have selected curtain 3, or gone for that big ticket item behind curtain 1, it would probably be a good idea to invest $3,500 for the 5dII and also add a copy of "final cut pro for the beginner" to the list.


i agree..the 5DII seems to be the must buy item, for the HD learning factor alone...

but the advantage the RED has of course is that i don't have to do either or....i can just shoot and decide later what i will use for still and what for motion....but i think it will only be a matter of time before canon figures that out as well...if they haven't done so already....

i guess canon could really spoil the fun and make all their announcements for the next 2 years now as well....."and the 2DsmkII will have a 32x40mm sensor 16bit 25-100000 asa (we are only 2 stops away from it now!) 14stops DR.....60FPS.....available fall/winter 2010...projected price 8000$"....
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Murray Fredericks

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« Reply #122 on: November 16, 2008, 04:57:01 pm »

I think there is no doubt that such a system has the power to grab a huge swathe of the market - assuming it can deliver the quality of a top MFBD system. That is a big ask, however. Look at the passion that is inspired on this forum whenever a comparison of DSLR and MFDB quality is raised. There is a high standard in the delivery of a still image to live up to. I would assume the tolerances of a video dedicated system would be nowhere near as strict as that for a still system?? Lately I have been trying to lift a still frame out of an HD video for a film poster shot and it is just not up to scratch.

Also, the talk of being able to shoot a video and still at the same time on the 1 system is unrealistic. Both are different mediums and the frame is constructed with different priorities. A still image has to tell the story in 1 frame and the video tells it in a sequence of frames. To assume you can get both at the same time with one operator and one system implies a massive compromise on one of the outputs - and that would  be the still in most cases.

You could probably get 'a result' in both media each time, but not a great result in both media every time. To setup  a video and then try to find a still image within that video would probably be akin to having your assistant shoot snaps or the client shoot with a compact while you do the 'real' work and hope that they get something 'useable' on a shoot.

I am looking foward to the red system because I shoot video as well as film, but my sense is that there will still be a 'video' shoot then a 'still' shoot where both are required to be good. If they are done on the same system that is something time will tell, but they will not be done in the same 'take'.

Murray




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jjj

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« Reply #123 on: November 16, 2008, 05:30:22 pm »

Quote from: Morgan_Moore
Im loving that QoS poster
Quote from: pss
that bond poster is amazing...
I thought it was really creepy. More like an ad from some sort of horror movie.





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jjj

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« Reply #124 on: November 16, 2008, 05:36:31 pm »

Quote from: Murray Fredericks
Also, the talk of being able to shoot a video and still at the same time on the 1 system is unrealistic. Both are different mediums and the frame is constructed with different priorities. A still image has to tell the story in 1 frame and the video tells it in a sequence of frames. To assume you can get both at the same time with one operator and one system implies a massive compromise on one of the outputs - and that would  be the still in most cases.

You could probably get 'a result' in both media each time, but not a great result in both media every time. To setup  a video and then try to find a still image within that video would probably be akin to having your assistant shoot snaps or the client shoot with a compact while you do the 'real' work and hope that they get something 'useable' on a shoot.

I am looking foward to the red system because I shoot video as well as film, but my sense is that there will still be a 'video' shoot then a 'still' shoot where both are required to be good. If they are done on the same system that is something time will tell, but they will not be done in the same 'take'.
And is one reason why on a movie set, the stills photography takes pictures after filming a scene has finished.
I don't like to shoot during takes anyway, as your positioning is wrong and either your camera makes a distracting noise or you use a blimp that has the ergonomics of a brick.
But I believe you can shoot silently with the 5DII, which will ironically mean lots of sales to film stills photographers.
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TMARK

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« Reply #125 on: November 16, 2008, 05:39:08 pm »

Quote from: rainer_v
if u ask me i`d vote for the medium format 30.000$() investment, but i am in a specific market which has nearly nothing in common with fashion or "normal" product advertisement needs.
i still cant see e.g. for architecture how a red could replace mf in the hi-end sector of this. not much sense to add here moving images although for sure some people will do it as some people make a living from 360 quicktime shots.
i wonder if architecture, art and maybe a part of studio product shootings (as cars) will remain the only domain for medium format, but it cant feed probably all existing mf companies.
its the question if  in the probably decreasing mf market  will remain enough people to hold alive one, two or three of the existing mf companies.
i could imagine that in fashion the mf market will be shreddered in the next 2 - 5 years,- but....  fashion doesnt means the whole world of photography ( thanks   ) so lets see how the things will go on. there are still   the half of architecture photographers in europe ( at least ! )  working with 4x5" film, they still are alive and active and will change to digital in the next few years as i believe. hard to say how big the mf market increase will be from these people who are in the jump to go digital, it could turn out that these are not so less people.

I think you are correct.  Which is why I think Sinar will survive.  They can stay established in the stills market that will (probably) always need traditional movements.
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jjj

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« Reply #126 on: November 16, 2008, 05:39:52 pm »

Quote from: Murray Fredericks
I would assume the tolerances of a video dedicated system would be nowhere near as strict as that for a still system??
If you mean a system designed for processing video, the opposite is the case.
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TMARK

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« Reply #127 on: November 16, 2008, 05:56:35 pm »

Quote from: E_Edwards
One thing I would really, really like to know is what proportion of medium format backs is sold to still life, architectural, fashion, portrait, advertising or
wedding photographers.

If, for instance, it turns out that the majority of users are studio still life photographers, then the present format is not too good for the purpose, or it could be much better. Ditto for architectural photographers, they are always posting with solutions to adapt to their requirements.

Fashion?  By what I hear, there are problems with not high enough ISO, or portability, practicality, speed, etc.

Today's cameras are probably a compromise to satisfy every specialisation and I think they do reasonably well. I just cannot help thinking that if it was that easy to design and produce something offering all the features that we want, someone would've done it to gain market share and destroy the competition. I think the main problem facing medium format backs is advances in sensor design. Aren't these back makers at the mercy of Kodak and Dalsa? I think progress is likely to come quicker from brands that make their own sensors tailored to the photographic industry.

I think one of the big roadblocks faced by the MFDB makers is their corporate culture, much more so than their being tethered to Dalsa and Kodak's spy satellite based chips.  Even the fact that they are still tethered to Kodak and Dalsa is a sign of their failure to get their own fabs going or to cultivate other suppliers.
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jing q

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« Reply #128 on: November 16, 2008, 10:05:34 pm »

Quote from: TMARK
I think one of the big roadblocks faced by the MFDB makers is their corporate culture, much more so than their being tethered to Dalsa and Kodak's spy satellite based chips.  Even the fact that they are still tethered to Kodak and Dalsa is a sign of their failure to get their own fabs going or to cultivate other suppliers.

good point: aren't there other chip manufacturers???
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AndreNapier

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« Reply #129 on: November 17, 2008, 12:28:44 am »

Quote from: PeterA
Still shooters are going to be gone within 10 years if they are stars and much sooner if they are not. The 645 and 617 chips will prove the paradigm shift as the technology delivers mind blowing HD capability. Like traditional photography - without the burden of analogue design hassles ( mirrors etc)  - view camera movements are a mere lego step away with these new systems - every aspect of film and photography will be challenged and won over by this technology. I think working pros have about a year to get their act together - after which anyone not on top of the convergence technology will be struggling firstly from lacking the flexibility to deliver to clients what they want and secondly from being left behind in the creativity stakes.

Each year thousands of tech savy graduates are pumped out from film and photography schools - none of these people are burdened by the facts of history - all of them wish to use the best technology they can to find a voice and express themselves. Personally,  I am fortunate not having to 'earn' a living shooting and can just shoot for personal satisfaction and the occasional editorial type ad for the fun of it. If I had to earn a living as a photographer, I would already be skilling up or preparing to exit.

I am already preparing a profession change. I will be teaching videographers how to take pictures.
The idea of grabbing a great frame from a motion image is just plain silly to me.
Anybody who understand the complexity of the process of taking PRODUCT SELLING IMAGE must find  all the predictions humorous. Only those who shoot thousands of frames on their DSLR in hope to find a keeper may be incline to believe it.  Let see, during two hours session 50 frames a second/ 3000 frames a minute/ 360,000 in two hours - there must be something good there, right? Go edit.
If you don't film all two hours you still going to miss that one frame. That is besides all others aspects that separate stills from motion.
http://AndreNapier.com
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lecter

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« Reply #130 on: November 17, 2008, 01:19:10 am »

It's amazing how the RED announcement of virtual-ware has aroused the passions of many.

It goes to show that the MF Manufacturers need to waken up, or they may be the dinosaurs they are accused of being.

Hassy with their stupid "Go Proprietory" ideas must be sweating a little.

Let's hope innovation is addictive.

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Morgan_Moore

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« Reply #131 on: November 17, 2008, 01:26:41 am »

Quote from: AndreNapier
The idea of grabbing a great frame from a motion image is just plain silly to me.

Anybody who understand the complexity of the process of taking PRODUCT SELLING IMAGE must find  all the predictions humorous. Only those who shoot thousands of frames on their DSLR in hope to find a keeper may be incline to believe it.  Let see, during two hours session 50 frames a second/ 3000 frames a minute/ 360,000 in two hours - there must be something good there, right? Go edit.
If you don't film all two hours you still going to miss that one frame. That is besides all others aspects that separate stills from motion.
http://AndreNapier.com

You are missing the point

the method will be..

Set up you still shot and roll - like the bond poster

Basically you shoot miniclips going for a great still on frame one, say for a model you used to go for 36 Frames in that dress you will now shoot 36 Clips

So you have

- a still shot

- a cut in for a film

- a web animation where the still shot displays and 'on mouse over' something happens like the modelspins round round you see the back of the dress

I shoot beer for a local client

Have been practicing the usual  still composition/lighting  (white background/backlit) - but the bubbles move in the glass - I know which I'd put on my website

S

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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

AndreNapier

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« Reply #132 on: November 17, 2008, 04:00:59 am »

Quote from: Morgan_Moore
You are missing the point

the method will be..

Set up you still shot and roll - like the bond poster

Basically you shoot miniclips going for a great still on frame one, say for a model you used to go for 36 Frames in that dress you will now shoot 36 Clips

So you have

- a still shot

- a cut in for a film

- a web animation where the still shot displays and 'on mouse over' something happens like the modelspins round round you see the back of the dress

I shoot beer for a local client

Have been practicing the usual  still composition/lighting  (white background/backlit) - but the bubbles move in the glass - I know which I'd put on my website

S

Morgan,
Now I got it. Since still photography is so complicated no videgrapher will become a great photog instead we will eliminate their useless and simple profession.
Took me a while but I have it now. So now back to Youtube since I have to watch some instructional video on how to shoot some great motion clips.
Andre.
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stevephoto

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« Reply #133 on: November 17, 2008, 06:21:36 am »

Quote from: AndreNapier
Morgan,
Now I got it. Since still photography is so complicated no videgrapher will become a great photog instead we will eliminate their useless and simple profession.
Took me a while but I have it now. So now back to Youtube since I have to watch some instructional video on how to shoot some great motion clips.
Andre.

On a business level, it is not normally considered good business for a company to talk about a product to be released some way into the future, unless it might indicate promotion for new investment funds for that company, and in some cases those funds might then be channeled to fund current liquidty issues.

If equipment makes it easier to come up with acceptable ( to the client ) middle to lower range work, the charge for that work will have a lot of downward pressure, but the top creative level will always be the top regardless of equipment since it's the person's creative and communication skill set and ultimately their own brand (not the equipment) that is being paid for by the client.

Anyone who thinks equipment will alter their opportunity for success, they  should go into equipment sales or hire. If however they see new creative opportunities to further enhance their current status, thats a whole different ball game.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2008, 11:19:35 am by stevephoto »
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Graeme Nattress

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« Reply #134 on: November 17, 2008, 07:41:11 am »

Stevephoto, if you look into the background and owner of RED, you'll see why pre-announcements are not for the reasons you mention.

AndreNapier, having motion at the same quality as stills on the camera, is not about allowing you to shoot for a long time at a high fps so you can go and later cherry pick that one frame that works. Now I'm sure someone will do that, but that's not the intention. There are many other uses to a photographer for the high fps abilities, especially on the larger frame sizes where medium and large format digital cameras are currently a bit slower than 35mm DSLRs. The capabilities we're talking about now mean you'll be able to shoot RAW and not worry about a buffer filling up. You'll just be able to shoot as much as fast as you want, and not stop until your card or drive is full. I can think of many creative uses of high fps that don't include picking a frame to use. Even if someone does shoot like mad to get just one good frame, does it really matter how they get that one great image if indeed it is the image that counts?

Graeme
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Morgan_Moore

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« Reply #135 on: November 17, 2008, 08:08:32 am »

Quote from: AndreNapier
Morgan,
Now I got it. Since still photography is so complicated no videgrapher will become a great photog instead we will eliminate their useless and simple profession.
Took me a while but I have it now. So now back to Youtube since I have to watch some instructional video on how to shoot some great motion clips.
Andre.

I dont know if you are joking !

There will be stills photographers who provide motion to and stills photographers that dont provide motion - IMO the ones that dont could be at risk from the ones that do

At the simplest level if I were a client who'd paid for location/model Id at least want a bit of motion squeezed off around the stills shoot

I thinkthis new trade is different from videography - we are talking seconds of footage not minutes or hours provided by 'moving stills photographers' (!)

Vimeo is good for footage - less 'babys first crawl' than youtube

S


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stevephoto

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« Reply #136 on: November 17, 2008, 08:29:28 am »

Quote from: Graeme Nattress
Stevephoto, if you look into the background and owner of RED, you'll see why pre-announcements are not for the reasons you mention.

AndreNapier, having motion at the same quality as stills on the camera, is not about allowing you to shoot for a long time at a high fps so you can go and later cherry pick that one frame that works. Now I'm sure someone will do that, but that's not the intention. There are many other uses to a photographer for the high fps abilities, especially on the larger frame sizes where medium and large format digital cameras are currently a bit slower than 35mm DSLRs. The capabilities we're talking about now mean you'll be able to shoot RAW and not worry about a buffer filling up. You'll just be able to shoot as much as fast as you want, and not stop until your card or drive is full. I can think of many creative uses of high fps that don't include picking a frame to use. Even if someone does shoot like mad to get just one good frame, does it really matter how they get that one great image if indeed it is the image that counts?

Graeme

my comment was a general one, and not specific to any company

specifically as unless you are the financial director of a company, or have access to the specific cash flow details of a company, and the quality of the sales book, it is impossible to accurately access the viability of any company going forward

i would say though that all business people and businesses are under new paradigm shift due to the current reversion to standard business practices that we  are currently at the beginning of, and that reversion will take quite some years to reach stabilisation, we therefore have to be careful of the basis on which we make current judgements.
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TMARK

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« Reply #137 on: November 17, 2008, 10:20:15 am »

Quote from: stevephoto
my comment was a general one, and not specific to any company

specifically as unless you are the financial director of a company, or have access to the specific cash flow details of a company, and the quality of the sales book, it is impossible to accurately access the viability of any company going forward

i would say though that all business people and businesses are under new paradigm shift due to the current reversion to standard business practices that we  are currently at the beginning of, and that reversion will take quite some years to reach stabilisation, we therefore have to be careful of the basis on which we make current judgements.

I have more faith in Red staying in business than I do of the back makers, or GM for that matter. Only Blad seems to have their act together.
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Imaginara

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« Reply #138 on: November 17, 2008, 10:46:30 am »

Quote from: jing q
actually why is it that people assume fashion is about a model moving around and a photographer snapping away? seems like such a cliche...

In some of the dresses and outfits i've had to shoot, moving is the LAST thing the model will be doing

And as a few already pointed out, predicting the death of film photography.. and even still photography is just stupid. I personally predict that we 10 years from now will still be bickering about if the next technology will kill the old one. And guess what, i bet people are still shooting and developing film then.

Its all nice to have new technology to come in and stir things up, but lets keep the predictions out of it. None of us knows the future and considering the stability of the financial market, i think any predictions on who will be surviving in 10 years is just daft.

Lets go out and shoot stuff instead. (With cameras mind you!)
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #139 on: November 17, 2008, 11:18:59 am »

Quote from: TMARK
I have more faith in Red staying in business than I do of the back makers, or GM for that matter. Only Blad seems to have their act together.

Not everything is as it appears...
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