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Author Topic: mamiya and phase  (Read 66201 times)

Morgan_Moore

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mamiya and phase
« Reply #140 on: November 16, 2007, 02:13:04 am »

Just a thought on 'open' platforms

I am a fan of 'open' and was pretty p'ssed off to be closed out of the blad lenses

BUT

I think the future of DBs will require a lot more information 'talk' between the chip and the camera

eg 'tuning of lenses' to a specific back body combo

live view stuff

AF stuff

etc

All seem to require information to be passed from the chip to the camera

But surely the current AFD comunication protocols are too limiting to ensure future competitiveness

There is also 'lens' correction posibbly including shift and tilt information which needs more info than the current protocol cameras give to the chip  I would suspect

It seems like they need a new kind of camera/back OS for this talk to happen - it should of course be 'open' because then third parties (like DXO) will be able to come to the party with thier special skillsets

S
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 02:16:51 am by Morgan_Moore »
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paul_jones

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« Reply #141 on: November 16, 2007, 03:02:33 am »

Quote
Hi
I just read the Phase One form & 2 Phase staff confirmed that the DB mount will be the same. So it is a new body that will accept leaf shutter lenses or will the leaf shutter lenses work on the AFDII?  Sounds good to me & I am very happy with the AFDII body. If it is a body for the new leaf shutter lenses plus the others, then I will upgrade my AFD body. This is a true win win situation.
Thanks Denis
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the old mamiya pro required you shoot with the focal plane shutter at a 30th to work. using a leaf shutter with a focal plane shutter requires quite a process, trigger the shutter, leaf shutter closes, focal plane opens, leaf shutter opens, makes the exposure, leaf shutter closes, focal plane closes, leaf shutter opens for viewing.
i doubt it could work with exising bodies, as it would need either a mechanical triiger on the body like the old pros, or some decent power from the body to power a motor on the lens to do this.
it would be far easier to design the function into the new camera body.

i hope this camera turns out good, i use to be a fan of mamiya in the film days. but i really dislike the afd.

paul
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samuel_js

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mamiya and phase
« Reply #142 on: November 16, 2007, 03:29:13 am »

Quote
the old mamiya pro required you shoot with the focal plane shutter at a 30th to work. using a leaf shutter with a focal plane shutter requires quite a process, trigger the shutter, leaf shutter closes, focal plane opens, leaf shutter opens, makes the exposure, leaf shutter closes, focal plane closes, leaf shutter opens for viewing.
i doubt it could work with exising bodies, as it would need either a mechanical triiger on the body like the old pros, or some decent power from the body to power a motor on the lens to do this.
it would be far easier to design the function into the new camera body.

i hope this camera turns out good, i use to be a fan of mamiya in the film days. but i really dislike the afd.

paul
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153261\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Or the camera will recognize the lens and open/deactivate the fp shutter if the attached lens has leaf shutter. Or maybe a personal function in the camera, because some lenses may not have electronical connectors.
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godtfred

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« Reply #143 on: November 16, 2007, 04:36:02 am »

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With a 1/125 sync on the AFD II, how would you reap the benefits of a leaf shutter? I'm guessing the AFD shutter would still be opening by the time the leaf shutter had gone through its complete cycle.
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The solution to this is as simple as letting the camera open the curtain shutter slightly ahead of the leaf shutter. Were talking a very short time, and "almost" not noticeable by the user. (I believe this is how the H and V series function with their help shutters in the rear of the camera? Or do these actually have a 1/800 (1/500) top speed?)

Having both could actually be a big plus, using the existing mamiya lenses and a curtain shutter at the rear, you could get 1/4000 as a top speed for sports and similar. When needing to use flash, pop on a leaf shutter lens, the camera has connectors that recognise this and automatically open the curtain slightly ahead of the leaf shutter, and closes it again slightly later. The backs don't have enough speed yet for the limitation to be in the camera, and the performance would be more than enough for outdoor flash shooters.

-axel
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 04:43:20 am by godtfred »
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hvk

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« Reply #144 on: November 16, 2007, 06:56:53 am »

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The solution to this is as simple as letting the camera open the curtain shutter slightly ahead of the leaf shutter.

On the 645 AF/AFD, the shutter disappears when the back is removed (for protection).

Is there a reason for not doing the same when the body detects a lens with a leaf shutter is mounted?

/Henrik
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godtfred

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« Reply #145 on: November 16, 2007, 07:09:43 am »

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On the 645 AF/AFD, the shutter disappears when the back is removed (for protection).

Is there a reason for not doing the same when the body detects a lens with a leaf shutter is mounted?
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There might be some trouble with the photosites of the back being hit by light all the time before the actual exposure is being made...

-axel
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Axel Bauer
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amsp

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« Reply #146 on: November 16, 2007, 07:51:53 am »

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I assume the focal plane shutter would stay open for as long as a leaf shutter lens is attached, effectively eliminating it from the camera.

People are dreaming if they think the existing bodies will handle new leaf shutter lenses.
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Why wouldn't they work on the AFD? Care to elaborate?
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #147 on: November 16, 2007, 08:16:09 am »

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There might be some trouble with the photosites of the back being hit by light all the time before the actual exposure is being made...

-axel
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But that wouldn't happen because the mirror is down.

If the focal plane shutter is fired for every shot as well as the leaf shutter, then you lose one of the advantages of the leaf shutter, which is much lower shutter vibration.
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godtfred

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« Reply #148 on: November 16, 2007, 09:03:17 am »

Quote
But that wouldn't happen because the mirror is down.

If the focal plane shutter is fired for every shot as well as the leaf shutter, then you lose one of the advantages of the leaf shutter, which is much lower shutter vibration.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153301\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Agreed, but then why have the "help shutter" in the H and V series cameras?
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thsinar

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« Reply #149 on: November 16, 2007, 09:42:13 am »

Dear Leonardo,

I cannot refrain from jumping in here!

Sinar - some design of camera?! Do you actually know what Sinar has been making those last 60 years, since 1948? Actually designing all cameras sold under its name and all the related accessories, including assembling and adjusting it.

I guess your description of Sinar was just a mistake.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Sinar -- some design of camera / digital backs for at least 2 systems

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Thierry Hagenauer
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JDG

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« Reply #150 on: November 16, 2007, 09:43:17 am »

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But that wouldn't happen because the mirror is down.

If the focal plane shutter is fired for every shot as well as the leaf shutter, then you lose one of the advantages of the leaf shutter, which is much lower shutter vibration.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153301\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Majority of "shutter" vibration actually comes from the mirror, which in a Hasselblad is quite violent.  The affect of two shutters would likely be minimal.
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #151 on: November 16, 2007, 09:56:51 am »

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Majority of "shutter" vibration actually comes from the mirror, which in a Hasselblad is quite violent.  The affect of two shutters would likely be minimal.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153316\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

True, but the difference between a focal plane shutter and a leaf shutter in MLU mode is significant.
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Leonardo Barreto

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« Reply #152 on: November 16, 2007, 10:11:42 am »

Thierry,

I made the chart just as an example of a possible way to compare all the players in the Digital MF and the new roles they are playing.

Is Sinar manufacturing the Hy6? Is Sinar designing and manufacturing all lenses that go in to that system? I know Sinar cameras, I used a 4x5 in the film era and couldn't  ask for anything better than that, but now things are different, and I don't say that Sinar will be a small player in the new era (practically medium format and large format have merged in to a larger-than-ff-35mm format that is very closely chased by the Mark 3's) but some companies will collaborate in the design of some systems, manufacture other components and market others.

So my very imperfect attempt to analysis was that, to see which is making what. So may be you can help me to do this ... or we move on to better discussion ideas.

By the way, is Sinar going to have digital backs for this new open system announced by Phase/Mamiya?



Quote
Dear Leonardo,

I cannot refrain from jumping in here!

Sinar - some design of camera?! Do you actually know what Sinar has been making those last 60 years, since 1948? Actually designing all cameras sold under its name and all the related accessories, including assembling and adjusting it.

I guess your description of Sinar was just a mistake.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153315\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 10:13:00 am by Leonardo Barreto »
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #153 on: November 16, 2007, 10:29:38 am »

If I remember correctly from the Jenoptik press release, Sinar, Jenoptik and Leaf all had input into the design of the Hy6.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 10:30:31 am by foto-z »
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thsinar

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« Reply #154 on: November 16, 2007, 10:37:08 am »

No harm, I just wanted to correct: you might how quickly such posts become the truth for some.

Sinar did not design lenses: I did not say this, simply ALL cameras and accessories related to it. As for lenses, we do mount/assemble and adjust it.

Actually yes, and as said by Graham in his post above, Sinar had some words to say, as well as the other players, concerning the Sinar Hy6.

You must be kidding for the Mamiya/PO camera/system?! Let it come to the market first.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Thierry,

I made the chart just as an example of a possible way to compare all the players in the Digital MF and the new roles they are playing.

Is Sinar manufacturing the Hy6? Is Sinar designing and manufacturing all lenses that go in to that system? I know Sinar cameras, I used a 4x5 in the film era and couldn't ask for anything better than that, but now things are different, and I don't say that Sinar will be a small player in the new era (practically medium format and large format have merged in to a larger-than-ff-35mm format that is very closely chased by the Mark 3's) but some companies will collaborate in the design of some systems, manufacture other components and market others.

So my very imperfect attempt to analysis was that, to see which is making what. So may be you can help me to do this ... or we move on to better discussion ideas.

By the way, is Sinar going to have digital backs for this new open system announced by Phase/Mamiya?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153325\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
« Last Edit: November 16, 2007, 10:39:43 am by thsinar »
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Thierry Hagenauer
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jing q

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« Reply #155 on: November 16, 2007, 12:29:15 pm »

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I assume the focal plane shutter would stay open for as long as a leaf shutter lens is attached, effectively eliminating it from the camera.

People are dreaming if they think the existing bodies will handle new leaf shutter lenses.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153242\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

uh yes the focal plane shutter will stay open but the leaf shutter would have shut already since it'll be at a higher speed than the focal plane shutter, and the mirror goes down.
I don't see how this is a problem when the inside of the camera is a dark chamber once the leaf shutter closes. They might have to make some adjustments to allow the focal plane shutter to open up earlier or to just open up when a leaf shutter lens is attached but it's no big deal...

If you have experience with the Nikon D70 in the past (which used a CCD chip I believe?Correct me if I'm wrong), you could sync up to 1/2000 of a second. So why can't the back be the one that determines the exposure?

If they could tweak the firmware to allow this on the AFDII that'll be great.
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John_Black

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« Reply #156 on: November 16, 2007, 01:02:43 pm »

With a "live-view" arrangement in the forthcoming camera I can see how leaf lenses would work, but I doubts about the AFD II.  Mirror goes up before leaf lens does its business?  That's some serious precision timing, plus major black out times in the view finder.  The signal to the strobes needs to be carefully timed, so the leaf lens would need electronic feedback into the camera so tell the camera CPU to send the signal to flash socket.  On top of this, with mirror-up how does AF function?  I'm with Graham on this one, the new camera will probably have a nice execution, but I'm skeptical when it comes to the AFD II family.

I know I'm in the minority on this one, but I hope to see a ZD II camera w/ the 3" LCD screen, faster throughputs & image review and a Phase P25+ or P30+ sensor.  For how I shoot the integrated ZD camera is easier to travel with and manage.  I would also love to see some type multi-point AF focus system.  Even 5 points would be a huge improvement.  And who are these new European lenses?  Did Zeiss sign up, or maybe Leica?  Imagine if it turned out to be Zeiss - that's like the Contax 645AF re-invented assuming the lenses are auto-focus.  

I've been flip-flopping on whether to buy a MF set-up for the past 12 months, so at this point waiting another 6 months is no big deal.  I just hope 6 months doesn't turn into 9, then 12, then 18...
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BJL

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« Reply #157 on: November 16, 2007, 02:49:32 pm »

Mamiya has a few leaf shutter lenses already for its 645 bodies. There are no AF ones yet, but I would guess that the 645AF bodies already work with those manual focus leaf shutter lenses.

So there could easily enough be compatibility of new leaf shutter lenses in Mamiya 645AF mount with existing Mamiya 645 format bodies.
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jing q

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« Reply #158 on: November 16, 2007, 02:50:51 pm »

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With a "live-view" arrangement in the forthcoming camera I can see how leaf lenses would work, but I doubts about the AFD II.  Mirror goes up before leaf lens does its business?  That's some serious precision timing, plus major black out times in the view finder. 
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you mean like the RZ?
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Nick-T

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« Reply #159 on: November 16, 2007, 03:14:02 pm »

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if sinar and leaf now only make backs for the Hy6/afi, they might as well close down right now....this is IMO where hass went wrong....people want to have the option to choose a camera and a back....i don't think someone who really wants a leaf back can be forced to get the afi with it....either way..like michael says phase has 50-70% of the DB market..with hass coming in aggressively, where does that leave sinar and leaf? they have to give their customers options....which is great for everybody....
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You claim "This is where Hasselblad went wrong"

I think this is where Hasselblad went RIGHT, despite all the carping on this forum I believe Hasselblad's sales have never been better and I think they are close to overtaking Phase in sales volume.

Nick-T
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