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Author Topic: mamiya and phase  (Read 66205 times)

amsp

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« Reply #100 on: November 14, 2007, 07:03:17 pm »

"The new camera system will be based on the Mamiya lens mount" Besides, if it's forward compatible it's backwards compatible.

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No where does it say that the new lenses will be back compatible, only current AFD lenses will mount the new body.

"Previous lenses will be able to be fitted."

So we have no assurance that these leaf shutter lenses will work on current AFD(II) bodies. Correct? Enlighten me if I am wrong here.
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bradleygibson

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« Reply #101 on: November 14, 2007, 07:42:31 pm »

Has anyone heard if it will be 645 or 6x6 or something else?
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pss

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« Reply #102 on: November 14, 2007, 07:46:23 pm »

i just love the fact that they will make a hassV lens adapter.....

maybe i am dense, but i still don't understand if this will have a new DB mount (if my mamiya mount P30 will fit on it)....that way it still fits the 645 the RZ and the new one....i am less worried about the lenses fitting on RZ or 645, i use different lenses for each camera anyway....

this should really give hass something to think about....i feel a little bad for the Hy6....
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amsp

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« Reply #103 on: November 14, 2007, 07:49:32 pm »

I think that would be very uncharacteristic of Mamiya really. If they wanted to force people to buy a new camera with a new set of lenses they would have waited with the release of the 28mm and new zoom and made it incompatible with the AFD. JMHO.

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See I disagree. If we all haven't learned yet with all this gear over the years, is that if it doesn't explicitly say so, I wouldn't just assume.

The new camera may use the same physical mount but could easily have more contacts for the additional requirements of full leaf shutter operation. Why not. If so, then that would not be backward compatible. That's all I'm trying to say as far as what has been presented.
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BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #104 on: November 14, 2007, 08:25:35 pm »

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Mamiya + Phase, open system?  Sounds like goodnight H3 closed system to me.  Great news.

Quentin
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That's indeed a good news, but you've got to wonder who is going to manufacture back for this new camera besides Phaseone.

My guess is that Leaf and Sinar probably won't, this leaves only Hassy. They probably should make their back available for the Mamiya, but will they?

Cheers,
Bernard

eronald

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« Reply #105 on: November 14, 2007, 09:22:56 pm »

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That's indeed a good news, but you've got to wonder who is going to manufacture back for this new camera besides Phaseone.

My guess is that Leaf and Sinar probably won't, this leaves only Hassy. They probably should make their back available for the Mamiya, but will they?

Cheers,
Bernard
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Mamiya can be relied upon to supply a cheap  back . At least one cheaper than the Phase model

Edmund
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pss

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« Reply #106 on: November 14, 2007, 09:39:47 pm »

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That's indeed a good news, but you've got to wonder who is going to manufacture back for this new camera besides Phaseone.

My guess is that Leaf and Sinar probably won't, this leaves only Hassy. They probably should make their back available for the Mamiya, but will they?

Cheers,
Bernard
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if sinar and leaf now only make backs for the Hy6/afi, they might as well close down right now....this is IMO where hass went wrong....people want to have the option to choose a camera and a back....i don't think someone who really wants a leaf back can be forced to get the afi with it....either way..like michael says phase has 50-70% of the DB market..with hass coming in aggressively, where does that leave sinar and leaf? they have to give their customers options....which is great for everybody....
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pprdigital

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« Reply #107 on: November 14, 2007, 10:33:36 pm »

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if sinar and leaf now only make backs for the Hy6/afi, they might as well close down right now....this is IMO where hass went wrong....people want to have the option to choose a camera and a back....i don't think someone who really wants a leaf back can be forced to get the afi with it....either way..like michael says phase has 50-70% of the DB market..with hass coming in aggressively, where does that leave sinar and leaf? they have to give their customers options....which is great for everybody....

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I am all for Phase One staying in business, and the same for Mamiya. A competitive market is a strong market.

My bias may be showing, but that said, I have a different opinion here. This whole notion of open is a joke. I predict in 3 to 5 years, there will be no more digital backs period. There is no question that an integrated solution is a superior solution - whether it comes from Leaf, Sinar, Hasselblad, or Phase One. Phase One simply got outbid or outmaneuvered and they're playing catch up. This whole "open" notion is very temporary. Again - open to what? Other than Mamiya, open to what? Great, Mamiya (oh, oops, forgot, and Phase!) give you open systems so you have choice. To do what? To put what on it?

The winner in the future is the company who overall has the BEST solution and sells and supports it the most effectively. 5 years from now, a company proclaiming how "open" they are will have absolutely no advantage in the market place. Phase One has no choice but to extoll the virtues of "open" because they have no advanced integration. And the idea of Phase One historically being so pro-open is ridiculous. Let's see, can you use Capture One with a Leaf back? Um, no. Can you put a Phase One back on a Contax 645 and then also a Hasselblad H2? Um, no. So much for "openness".

I believe this "openness" is inherently temporary and is a mirage.

Also, if Michael has stated that Phase One has 50%-70% market share, he's been treated to too many cocktails with the Vikings. Those figures are complete BS.

Steve Hendrix
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« Last Edit: November 14, 2007, 11:01:31 pm by pprdigital »
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j.miller

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« Reply #108 on: November 14, 2007, 10:48:28 pm »

Considering PhaseOne has indicated that Hasselblad C-Series lenses will be an option (via an adapter), that would almost certainly require that the camera be 645 or smaller. The flange focal distance of Hasselblad C-Series lenses would only allow them to be adapted (adapted not mounted) to a format with a shorter flange focal distance, and still keep infinity focus. PhaseOne has also indicated that they will be using the same lens mount as the Mamiya 645 system, which would also rule out the possibility of it being a larger-than-645 format.

Regards,

Jordan Miller

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Has anyone heard if it will be 645 or 6x6 or something else?
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« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 11:11:27 am by j.miller »
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Mort54

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« Reply #109 on: November 14, 2007, 10:57:29 pm »

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Phase One took the wrong road and now they have to slap their label on some new Mamiya camera
Steve, I think you're right regarding the whole "open" claim, but regarding the source of the new camera, I believe Michael reported that it was designed by Phase One, with help from Mamiya. Even if there is some marketing speak in that statement, it hardly sounds like Phase One is simply going to be slapping their label on a new Mamiya camera.
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pprdigital

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« Reply #110 on: November 14, 2007, 11:01:03 pm »

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Steve, I think you're right regarding the whole "open" claim, but regarding the source of the new camera, I believe Michael reported that it was designed by Phase One, with help from Mamiya. Even if there is some marketing speak in that statement, it hardly sounds like Phase One is simply going to be slapping their label on a new Mamiya camera.
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That is quite possible and I could be wrong there. In fact, I hovered over that sentence for a bit, unsure of why, and now I know. I don't have enough information for that sentence to work (not that I really meant it literally).

I've edited that post.

Steve Hendrix
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« Last Edit: November 14, 2007, 11:01:55 pm by pprdigital »
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Mort54

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« Reply #111 on: November 14, 2007, 11:02:45 pm »

Regarding the leaf shutter lenses for the new camera, isn't it possible that this is just via the V adapter? The Hassy V lenses are leaf shutter lenses, so by providing a V adapter, you get leaf shutter lenses. I'm hoping it's more than this, but .....
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John Camp

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« Reply #112 on: November 14, 2007, 11:05:30 pm »

I agree with Steve Hendrix on the future development of these systems -- Phase and Mamiya each had to do *something*. Mamiya had come up somewhat short and somewhat late with their MF solution (not that it's bad, but it's not exactly cutting edge, either), and in the game of musical-cameras, the other camera systems had been taken and Phase was out there alone. Their conjunction was almost inevitable.

But they waited so late, and the urgency to do something is now so great (before people get locked into Hassy or Hy6 lens/body solutions), that what they've come up with is a kind of temporary, hybrid solution.

It gives Phase a good camera body and lenses, and Mamiya access to arguably the best back, now. But five years from now, when they come out with the NEXT camera, I'd be willing it's a lot more integrated -- and a lot more closed. They are, essentially, all evolving toward something that will look like the H3D.

In the past, the biggest MF players were Hassy and Mamiya, which had slightly different markets. I  wouldn't be surprised to see the market split the same way (based on price and perceived quality differences) with the Hy6 system becoming the Contax-like third player.

I also have to say that I would not be suprised to see one of these companies bought out by the other, or a merger. I can't see Phase going along with a split system, only to allow Mamiya, five years down the road and with its own high-end solution, tellling them to take a hike. Phase would then, truly, be out of luck. I have to believe that there's some long-term, very tight contractural relationship here, that will not allow that to happen.

Speaking of "out of luck," the company with the Contax rights...

JC
« Last Edit: November 14, 2007, 11:08:31 pm by John Camp »
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bradleygibson

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« Reply #113 on: November 14, 2007, 11:20:49 pm »

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Considering PhaseOne has indicated that Hasselblad C-Series lenses will be an option (via an adapter), that would almost certainly require that the camera be 645 or smaller.
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I'm not sure why you say that providing Hassy C-series compatibility would almost certainly require 645 or smaller.  Since these Hassy lenses cover a 6x6 image circle, they could be used up to that size, provided the adapter is designed correctly.

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PhaseOne has also indicated that they will be using the same lens mount as the Mamiya 645 system, which would also rule out the possibility of it being a larger-than-645 format.
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I haven't heard that the lens mount will be the same--if you are referring to Michael's report, he stated that the new mount will be *based on* the Mamiya lens mount.  This wording and the report of adapters being available for existing Mamiya lenses leads me to believe the mount won't be the same (perhaps just a change to eliminate any mechanical linkages, or perhaps the new camera will be something other than 645 or 6x7?)

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The flange focal distance of Hasselblad C-Series lenses would only allow them to be adapted (adapted not mounted) to a format with a shorter flange focal distance, and still keep infinity focus. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152941\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm not sure what you mean by adapted but not mounted (what would one do with the lens if not mounting it?), but the Hasselblad C series flange distance is 74.9mm.  By comparison, Mamiya 645 is 63.3mm.  So, if Mamiya wants to offer compatibility with C-series lenses, on a mount no longer than the 645's flange distance (else 645 lenses will require additional optics to mount on the new camera) the adapter must be 11.6mm thick.  That is plenty of room to build a good, solid adapter.

So I don't have any information on the format of the new camera, but it does seem that they are being careful in their wording thus far, and it seems to be at least technically possible to create a larger than 645 platform.

I'm just wondering if they've decided to do so or not...

-Brad
« Last Edit: November 14, 2007, 11:26:44 pm by bradleygibson »
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rethmeier

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« Reply #114 on: November 14, 2007, 11:27:58 pm »

I believe that Sinar will be always making DB with different adapters.
There will be always people that shoot with tilt-shift cameras etc.

Regarding Phase and Mamiya, they should mimmic the Hy6 concept.
I.O.W A smaller RZ with a rotating back.

Cheers,

WR.
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Mort54

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« Reply #115 on: November 14, 2007, 11:28:06 pm »

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.....what they've come up with is a kind of temporary, hybrid solution.
That's quite an interesting statement, considering we know next to NOTHING about this new camera :-)

From what information do you conclude that the new camera will be a temporary, hybrid solution? If it indeed was designed by Phase One, as Michael asserts, I suspect they've been working on it for quite some time. After all, Michael reported they struck an initial agreement last November. I seriously doubt the two parties got together last November and started from scratch. More likely both parties got together last November and compared notes on what they've been working on for the past few years, and concluded they would be stronger working together.

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It gives Phase a good camera body and lenses, and Mamiya access to arguably the best back, now.
I'm not sure what you mean by it gives Phase a good camera body - if Phase designed it, then they aren't really being given anything. Yes, they are getting Mamiya's mount, technology know-how, and manufacturing resources, but it appears they gave themselves the body.

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They are, essentially, all evolving toward something that will look like the H3D.
I don't think anybody is evolving toward something that will look like the H3D. I suspect they're all evolving toward something that looks like a high end DSLR, except with a bigger sensor. The H3D isn't the first instance of a highly integrated system by a long shot.
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bradleygibson

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« Reply #116 on: November 14, 2007, 11:47:55 pm »

I must say that I have to disagree with the "closed systems are the only way" sentiments expressed by some on this board recently.

Please understand that I don't have a Hasselblad H system and am not coming from the perspective of a customer who feels like he has been abandoned (although I can empathize with those who feel that way).

I feel that Hasselblad (and Jenoptik's) closed strategy is a viable and reasonable approach to business, as long as they are clear with their customers about who can play and who can't.  Sinar has been (mostly) clear and up-front about this.  Hasselblad clearly surprised many with their recent moves with the H3 locking out other backs, and their HCD lenses not functioning on H1's and H2's.  I think surprising your customers and potential customers in this way is not a good long-term business plan, and Hassy knows this.

Going forward, I think (and hope) we'll see a lot less of this, but I believe Hasselblad does intend to follow a more Canon/Nikon model for upgrades going forward (by providing a minimal trade-in value for older systems, they are encouraging buyers to sell on their own to upgrade to the latest bodies).  It remains to be seen if a new, higher-resolution back will require upgrading the camera as well, or if it will be made available to any previous generations.  It would be nice if Hasselblad would clarify this one way or another for all of us.

Regardless, as I have stated, I feel this is a fine and even reasonable business model, provided it is made clear up front.  But I do not feel that this is the only way to be profitable in the MFDB market.  It's just one way, and there are others.  I suspect, if Phase and Mamiya do things right, we will see that demonstrated in the not too distant future.  I do wish them luck, because personally, I prefer choice to the convenience of a closed package.

Some have cited the superiority of integrated offerings, but again, I question this.  There were many reports of lock-ups in the early H systems, even with all Hasselblad components.  Every new system has its growing pains, integrated or not.  And once the teething pains are over, a well-designed open system can function every bit as effectively, efficiently and reliably as a closed one.

So, I'll get off my soapbox now, I just wanted to express the sentiment that just because an approach is working for some it doesn't mean there's not another way.  Just the interest in this thread in such a short time is some indication that there is more than a little interest in Phase/Mamiya's plan.  I hope they are also successful, so that the medium format marketplace is a vibrant, competitive industry with us, the photographers benefiting.

Best regards,
Brad
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godtfred

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« Reply #117 on: November 15, 2007, 02:11:42 am »

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like michael says phase has 50-70% of the DB market..
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I can not believe these numbers based on my own experience here in Norway. There is at least a hassy HxD system for every Phase/Leaf/Sinar/Mamiya shooter I come across. Then again, Norway is not the entire world  

-axel
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mcfoto

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« Reply #118 on: November 15, 2007, 02:47:04 am »

Hi
They say an open system, which means not closed. If true don't you think that Leaf, Sinar & Mamiya will build backs for this new system. Leaf & Sinar have everything to gain sell more backs. Depends on price if the new Mamiya/Phase body is less expensive there will be an advantage here. One thing we have to take into account that the MAC group in the US is the agent for Mamiya & also the agent for Leaf. Now I would think that Leaf will build backs for this new mount if it is an open system. These are early days & we don't know the full details yet. If Mamiya can still build affordable lenses & bodies that will be there advantage. I still believe in an open system.
Thanks Denis
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Dustbak

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« Reply #119 on: November 15, 2007, 02:50:09 am »

Now, the integrated superior solution comes in again. I have heard that so many times now.

Can anyone give a couple of reasons why this should be superior over an 'open solution' that provides 3rd parties with developer tools?

I have never heard one good sincere reason why an integrated solution is better.

I can give more than one reason why I believe an open solution is superior and leads to better products.

Better for us, photographers that is!
« Last Edit: November 15, 2007, 02:52:55 am by Dustbak »
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