Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: meierruedi on November 13, 2007, 10:07:25 am

Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: meierruedi on November 13, 2007, 10:07:25 am
http://www.mamiya.co.jp/news_eng_20071113.html (http://www.mamiya.co.jp/news_eng_20071113.html)
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Graham Mitchell on November 13, 2007, 10:11:48 am
I assume this means a whole new line of leaf shutter lenses? Bold move.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: amsp on November 13, 2007, 10:40:29 am
The photography gods are listening after all!  Can't wait to see the things to come.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Dustbak on November 13, 2007, 11:04:45 am
'The first new camera system will be introduced in q1 2008. '

That doesn't say leaf shutter system perse but it is promising. It does say they are developing something new.

I wonder what 'will be introduced' actually means? Will it be available than (or shortly after) or is it a paper introduction?
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: amsp on November 13, 2007, 11:08:15 am
Quote
'The first new camera system will be introduced in q1 2008. '

That doesn't say leaf shutter system perse but it is promising. It does say they are developing something new.

I wonder what 'will be introduced' actually means? Will it be available than (or shortly after) or is it a paper introduction?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152440\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The impression I've had from previous P1 hints are that they are launching a new camera Q1. And I think a faster flash sync in camera or in the form of leaf shutter lenses is a pretty safe bet since this is the only thing really lacking in the AFD
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: jimgolden on November 13, 2007, 11:13:26 am
wow, that might kill some ZD mojo...or not

uh, wait a sec...Q1 2008 is like 3-4 months from now, so they may have a new camera system by
then?
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Photomangreg on November 13, 2007, 11:15:30 am
I can't imagine this will be anything we will see soon, look how long it has taken the Hy6 to materialize, and the ZD, etc.  And since it sounds like this is in reaction to Hassy ending the H2, it's not like it's something they have been working on for a long time if it's just being announced now.  Phase is notorious for announcing things well in advance of it actually shipping.

Time will tell....
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: amsp on November 13, 2007, 11:21:35 am
Quote
I can't imagine this will be anything we will see soon, look how long it has taken the Hy6 to materialize, and the ZD, etc.  And since it sounds like this is in reaction to Hassy ending the H2, it's not like it's something they have been working on for a long time if it's just being announced now.  Phase is notorious for announcing things well in advance of it actually shipping.

Time will tell....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152447\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

On the contrary, seeing that Mamiya released the AFDII quite some time ago I think they've been tinkering away on a new design since then. I'm not even sure it's such a big deal really, just some improved AF and faster flash sync and there you go, AFDIII  Anything else would just be a plus in my book. I also think both companies realize that they can't drag their feet here if the want to compete with the Hy6 and H3DII.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Morgan_Moore on November 13, 2007, 12:06:15 pm
Quote
On the contrary, seeing that Mamiya released the AFDII quite some time ago I think they've been tinkering away on a new design since then. I'm not even sure it's such a big deal really, just some improved AF and faster flash sync and there you go, AFDIII  Anything else would just be a plus in my book. I also think both companies realize that they can't drag their feet here if the want to compete with the Hy6 and H3DII.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152450\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

if they have leaf shutters, backward lens compatability and multipoint focus it will be a winner.

technically i beleive it is hard to get flash synch up without leaf shutters - too much curtain to move too fast

S
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: John Camp on November 13, 2007, 12:27:23 pm
Very interesting. I've always had a soft spot for Mamiya - I used an RZ for years. This will be particularly attractive if Mamiya maintains its traditional market position of being cheaper, piece-for-piece, than the German-based models, while keeping performanced in the same class. Maye time for the prices of MF to start drifting down...?

JC
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: mcrepsej on November 13, 2007, 12:41:33 pm
Quote
I can't imagine this will be anything we will see soon, look how long it has taken the Hy6 to materialize, and the ZD, etc.  And since it sounds like this is in reaction to Hassy ending the H2, it's not like it's something they have been working on for a long time if it's just being announced now.  Phase is notorious for announcing things well in advance of it actually shipping.

Time will tell....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152447\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

..........but did you know that PhaseOne did develope 35% of the electronics to H1 for Hasy???

McRepsej
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: TechTalk on November 13, 2007, 12:51:32 pm
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..........but did you know that PhaseOne did develope 35% of the electronics to H1 for Hasy???

McRepsej
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152470\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No. Did you know that in reality, it was a company in Sweden?
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: hubell on November 13, 2007, 02:30:04 pm
Quote
http://www.mamiya.co.jp/news_eng_20071113.html (http://www.mamiya.co.jp/news_eng_20071113.html)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152425\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think the President of Phase One gets my vote for the Hypocrite of the Year Award. When PDN interviewed him last month about the announced "strategic relationship" with Microsoft and asked him about what products to expect, here is what he had to say: "For competitive reasons, we do not comment on future product plans." He should amend that statement to read as follows: "For competitive reasons, we do not comment on future product plans, unless we need to in order to try to slow the inroads into our market share by potential buyers of Hasselblad H3Ds and Hy6s, in which case we will announce products today that we intend to "introduce" next year and let potential customers guess/fantasize in chat rooms about what that product will be and when it will actually ship."
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Dustbak on November 13, 2007, 02:47:48 pm
Which is not too different from most other players in this field I guess?

I can mention numerous things that have been announced by any given party that took a very long time to materialize or even never showed up.

Nothing new here.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: canmiya on November 13, 2007, 02:52:40 pm
Quote
I think the President of Phase One gets my vote for the Hypocrite of the Year Award. When PDN interviewed him last month about the announced "strategic relationship" with Microsoft and asked him about what products to expect, here is what he had to say: "For competitive reasons, we do not comment on future product plans." He should amend that statement to read as follows: "For competitive reasons, we do not comment on future product plans, unless we need to in order to try to slow the inroads into our market share by potential buyers of Hasselblad H3Ds and Hy6s, in which case we will announce products today that we intend to "introduce" next year and let potential customers guess/fantasize in chat rooms about what that product will be and when it will actually ship."
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152488\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i'm not sure i follow...was the question and his answer specific to the microsoft alliance or to broader activity?  the hy6 has been on the horizon for quite some time, and basically hasselblad let the market know what its plans were when the hd3 was introduced and the new lens was not compatible with the older h models.  if phase and mamiya are going to introduce a new camera in the first quarter of 08, they just didn't start working together on it  two weeks ago....as for making announcements and letting people fantasize about them, isn't that the norm?  look at the hy6/leaf afi, canon 1ds3, nikons d300, and the d3 just to name  few...
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: amsp on November 13, 2007, 02:54:47 pm
Quote
I think the President of Phase One gets my vote for the Hypocrite of the Year Award. When PDN interviewed him last month about the announced "strategic relationship" with Microsoft and asked him about what products to expect, here is what he had to say: "For competitive reasons, we do not comment on future product plans." He should amend that statement to read as follows: "For competitive reasons, we do not comment on future product plans, unless we need to in order to try to slow the inroads into our market share by potential buyers of Hasselblad H3Ds and Hy6s, in which case we will announce products today that we intend to "introduce" next year and let potential customers guess/fantasize in chat rooms about what that product will be and when it will actually ship."
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152488\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I love how you complain in another post on how people who don't use hasselblad bitch about their pressreleases and here you are doing the same thing  
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: JDG on November 13, 2007, 03:01:39 pm
Quote
I think the President of Phase One gets my vote for the Hypocrite of the Year Award. When PDN interviewed him last month about the announced "strategic relationship" with Microsoft and asked him about what products to expect, here is what he had to say: "For competitive reasons, we do not comment on future product plans." He should amend that statement to read as follows: "For competitive reasons, we do not comment on future product plans, unless we need to in order to try to slow the inroads into our market share by potential buyers of Hasselblad H3Ds and Hy6s, in which case we will announce products today that we intend to "introduce" next year and let potential customers guess/fantasize in chat rooms about what that product will be and when it will actually ship."
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152488\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Yes this seems quite a bit harsh, after all it would be poor business relations for him to talk about products that are coming, especially with other companies, without first releasing an official press release.  

Phase One has been saying for quite some time that they believed the MFDB market should be open and that they disagreed with Hasselblad's decision to close off the H series.  It is refreshing to see this new camera system will be in line with their rhetoric.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Snook on November 13, 2007, 03:08:11 pm
Well I went with a P30  just now after much debating between it and the Aptus 22.
I will be getting the P30 in 2 weeks.
The press release ,whether accurate or not , did help me lean towards the Phase since I am with Mamiya anyways.
Now hopefully they will get their act together and come out with a higher syncing body or some AF leafshutter lens!!!
Snook
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: tom_l on November 13, 2007, 03:55:28 pm
Hmm, my guess: we will probably see a re-branded Mamiya, maybe with some of the above mentionned features and a P30(+) back for a great competitive price. Maybe they will call it ZDII, ZDsMarkII, ZDx or another confusing name;-)))

tom
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: condit79 on November 13, 2007, 04:58:33 pm
or what about a "mamiya 1".  Hopefully it'll be better than pepsi one.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: jpjespersen on November 13, 2007, 05:32:16 pm
I'm going with    
"Mamiya Infinity"    ..Infinite Options, Infinite Creativiity.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: hubell on November 13, 2007, 05:37:55 pm
Quote
...as for making announcements and letting people fantasize about them, isn't that the norm?  look at the hy6/leaf afi, canon 1ds3, nikons d300, and the d3 just to name  few...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152493\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The differences are really obvious. Hasselblad provides detailed product announcements abut the H3D and the H3DII and immediately starts shipping the products. Canon and Nikon announce new products with very detailed specifications and they start shipping within a few months. Even Sinar showed a protoptype when they announced the Hy6 and provided details about the product. These were all real products. What Phase has done with its "announcement" is altogether different. They said they would "introduce" a camera in Q1 2008. Not one single detail as to what it will be. Will it be the greatest thing since sliced bread or just an AFDII with a Phase back painted the same color. No indication if the "introduction" will be a model made of balsa wood or a real camera that is shipping.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: david o on November 13, 2007, 05:51:52 pm
Quote
The differences are really obvious. Hasselblad provides detailed product announcements abut the H3D and the H3DII and immediately starts shipping the products. Canon and Nikon announce new products with very detailed specifications and they start shipping within a few months. Even Sinar showed a protoptype when they announced the Hy6 and provided details about the product. These were all real products. What Phase has done with its "announcement" is altogether different. They said they would "introduce" a camera in Q1 2008. Not one single detail as to what it will be. Will it be the greatest thing since sliced bread or just an AFDII with a Phase back painted the same color. No indication if the "introduction" will be a model made of balsa wood or a real camera that is shipping.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152544\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

At least it's not a rumor. Phase and Mam work together... And sure it may help Phase to stop a potential panic about the future of phase...
and it says they will "introduce" not reveal...
so it won't take long to know about spec.
Keep your wallet safe it won't take long for you to fire it.
 
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: amsp on November 13, 2007, 06:16:25 pm
Quote
The differences are really obvious. Hasselblad provides detailed product announcements abut the H3D and the H3DII and immediately starts shipping the products. Canon and Nikon announce new products with very detailed specifications and they start shipping within a few months. Even Sinar showed a protoptype when they announced the Hy6 and provided details about the product. These were all real products. What Phase has done with its "announcement" is altogether different. They said they would "introduce" a camera in Q1 2008. Not one single detail as to what it will be. Will it be the greatest thing since sliced bread or just an AFDII with a Phase back painted the same color. No indication if the "introduction" will be a model made of balsa wood or a real camera that is shipping.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152544\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Again, why do you even care, since you shoot H3D anyway? And your ramblings are starting to sound pretty silly. First of all the phase back is already the same color  and works without a glitch with the current AFD. Second, I hardly think Mamiya's R&D has been sitting on their hands since the launch of the AFDII, my guess is they already had something in the works when they started talking to P1 about a collaboration. And this was surely quite some time ago if they are making it public now, since it takes time to work out the legal stuff. And now they are probably putting the finishing touches on it together. So, I think a balsa wood model is probably out of the question here  
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: david o on November 13, 2007, 06:23:19 pm
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balsa wood model
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152559\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think it'll be even more 'green'... they will launch the Schott Towell model with auto clean lenses.

is blad ready for such improvment?
 
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: samuel_js on November 13, 2007, 06:27:59 pm
Guys, this new product is well known already but obviously not by the overall community, yet... But we'll know very soon. They will introduce it in 2008, but my understanding is that the new whatever is as good as finished.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: pss on November 13, 2007, 06:40:27 pm
Quote
The differences are really obvious. Hasselblad provides detailed product announcements abut the H3D and the H3DII and immediately starts shipping the products. Canon and Nikon announce new products with very detailed specifications and they start shipping within a few months. Even Sinar showed a protoptype when they announced the Hy6 and provided details about the product. These were all real products. What Phase has done with its "announcement" is altogether different. They said they would "introduce" a camera in Q1 2008. Not one single detail as to what it will be. Will it be the greatest thing since sliced bread or just an AFDII with a Phase back painted the same color. No indication if the "introduction" will be a model made of balsa wood or a real camera that is shipping.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152544\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

why do you care? aren't you happy with your H? or will only hasselblad domination do for you? if the phase C1v4 announcement/release date is any indication this won't be out before Q1 09....but seriously the afdII is long in the tooth and i don't see the problem with slapping shutters into lenses....mamiya has done that plenty of times before and IMO they only stopped for cost reasons....now with hass and Hy6 prices where they are mamiya does not really have to worry about that anymore.....either way good to see competition....
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: hubell on November 13, 2007, 06:51:46 pm
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Again, why do you even care, since you shoot H3D anyway? [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152559\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I really don't care on any sort of emotional level. I just have a thing about hypocritical corporate behavior. You seem eager to to embrace it by cranking up the fantasy feature machine, which is just what was intended by Phase. Go for it. It's not illegal.
I do believe that it would be in everyone's best interests if Phase/Mamiya jointly develop a truly new, exceptional camera. However,  no actual camera with a shipping date has been announced at this point, and Phase's press release is, to me, cynically timed to coincide with the shipping of Hy6 cameras into the marketplace.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: david o on November 13, 2007, 06:56:30 pm
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I really don't care on any sort of emotional level. I just have a thing about hypocritical corporate behavior
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152572\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Let's say your right and then let us know your thought  about blad saying they stopped the h2 because of cost of RD...
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: rsmphoto on November 13, 2007, 06:59:53 pm
You have to love the selection cheerleading teams on this site.  There definitely is an entertainment level that exists on LL not unlike talk radio here in the states.

We should ALL be celebrating the simple fact that competition is even more alive and well with this announcement... which means that every MFDB mfr. will be working even harder to continue to improve their particular product, to continue to innovate, to compete for our dollars, euros, pounds, whatever. I say great, each and everyone of us, as photographers, benefit from product evolution such as this. I don't use Phase - probably never will - I like my system just fine, but I couldn't be more pleased to see that they have finally found a way to compete on the same playing field as the other MFDB mfrs.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: amsp on November 13, 2007, 07:02:57 pm
Quote
I really don't care on any sort of emotional level. I just have a thing about hypocritical corporate behavior. You seem eager to to embrace it by cranking up the fantasy feature machine, which is just what was intended by Phase. Go for it. It's not illegal.
I do believe that it would be in everyone's best interests if Phase/Mamiya jointly develop a truly new, exceptional camera. However,  no actual camera with a shipping date has been announced at this point, and Phase's press release is, to me, cynically timed to coincide with the shipping of Hy6 cameras into the marketplace.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152572\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
 I can't belive you use the word "hypocritical" about Phase considering Hasselblad's twists and turns lately. H2 anyone? Also, fantasy? What's so fantastical about expecting some basic improvements on the few things now slightly lacking? Seems like logic to me. And I don't think it's cynical by a company letting their customers know that they are not being idle in the face of competition, it's just good business.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: hubell on November 13, 2007, 07:04:01 pm
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why do you care? aren't you happy with your H? or will only hasselblad domination do for you? to worry about that anymore.....either way good to see competition....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152568\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This has nothing to do with what camera I shoot. My observations stand on their own, right or wrong. I just cannot recall seeing a company in this market issue a press release about a forthcoming camera with zero details about its specs and no projected shipping date. It's an announcement that there will be an announcement in Q1 2008.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: hubell on November 13, 2007, 07:07:04 pm
Quote
Let's say your right and then let us know your thought  about blad saying they stopped the h2 because of cost of RD...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152575\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I would not call that hypocritical. Disingenuous fits better. [G]
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: canmiya on November 13, 2007, 07:10:47 pm
Quote
The differences are really obvious. Hasselblad provides detailed product announcements abut the H3D and the H3DII and immediately starts shipping the products. Canon and Nikon announce new products with very detailed specifications and they start shipping within a few months. Even Sinar showed a protoptype when they announced the Hy6 and provided details about the product. These were all real products. What Phase has done with its "announcement" is altogether different. They said they would "introduce" a camera in Q1 2008. Not one single detail as to what it will be. Will it be the greatest thing since sliced bread or just an AFDII with a Phase back painted the same color. No indication if the "introduction" will be a model made of balsa wood or a real camera that is shipping.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152544\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
well, phase does have a partner here so a decision about what to release and when is not a unilateral one.  why is the fact that they have taken a different route from some of the other companies so bothersome?  are you suggesting that the route they have taken  makes their effort any less real than another company's?
quite frankly, i find the announcement an exciting and welcomed development.  
perhaps i'm in the minority, but i worry about the pricing of  several of the new products about to hit the market.  there is a huge gap  between the top end of the mfdigital market and the dslr style market.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: david o on November 13, 2007, 07:15:43 pm
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I would not call that hypocritical. Disingenuous fits better. [G]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152582\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
P1/Mam announcement has nothing to do with hypocrisy... Optimist at large...  
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: rueyloon on November 13, 2007, 09:01:09 pm
I would like to hazard a guess at what the new camera will be like.

as in with the Hy6, it is probably built around an existing body, so I'll vote for the RB or the RZ with the film part removed and some digital blings added on.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: John.Murray on November 13, 2007, 09:22:22 pm
hmmmm . . . .

I wonder what this will do for current ZD system pricing?
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Henry Goh on November 13, 2007, 09:29:03 pm
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hmmmm . . . .

I wonder what this will do for current ZD system pricing?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152610\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

going to be lowered or scraped totally....which is probably why some have immediately started to sell their brand new ZD backs...
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Graham Mitchell on November 13, 2007, 09:32:59 pm
I don't know what the excitement is all about. I doubt very much that this will be based on an RZ67 because it is way oversized, uses bellows focusing, the crop factor is too high, etc. It would be a niche product at best.

And if it's based on the 645AFD (which I suspect) then the improvement will be incremental at best. This is still a rather compromised platform.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: pss on November 13, 2007, 10:06:14 pm
Quote
I don't know what the excitement is all about. I doubt very much that this will be based on an RZ67 because it is way oversized, uses bellows focusing, the crop factor is too high, etc. It would be a niche product at best.

And if it's based on the 645AFD (which I suspect) then the improvement will be incremental at best. This is still a rather compromised platform.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152612\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

i did not even think about the RZ option! that would be the best! drop the winder lever/motor (not needed if not shooting film) trim the size down, keep the bellows focus, keep the lenses compatibel...should not be that hard....
mamiya has the advantage of not having to cram everything into one body....this is where IMO the hass (and the Hy6) are wrong....sometimes one needs a WLF with rotating back and sometimes a DSLR style smaller shooter....mamiya has them both, all they need to do is make adjustments to both and keep the lenses going....minimum R&D....no need to compete with hass on features and hyper focus, if someone wants that they alraedy bought a H anyway.....

update the RZ and come out with a couple of shutter lenses for the 645.....the latter is easily doable until Q1 08....they used to build them for the 645 pro!

whatever they will do it will be great for MF to have some competition...
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: SeanBK on November 13, 2007, 10:35:34 pm
I agree that why all the commotion, as 3 weeks back Phase One introduced that they will throw in Mamiya 645 AFD with purchase of P+ back, plus they will give great deals on lenses. So they probably will tweak the camera to function just for Phase One backs. As it has been said before, nothing but conventional vaporware from Phase, so market is frozen for next 6-9 months, while they garner free publicity in L-L forum. Hey, if it has worked all these times in past for them, then try & try again.  
   If it is not broken then why fix it, i.e being honorable in their promos. Sorry, I know it sounds harsh, but really it is the truth. No specs, no delivered by date (in past they never met a delivery date, it is still approx date Q1-'08). You might call Merry Christmas, I call "Bah Humbug", give me detailed specs, delivery date - Day & Month. Then I can say it IS an announcement!!!
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Henry Goh on November 13, 2007, 11:04:25 pm
Quote
I don't know what the excitement is all about. I doubt very much that this will be based on an RZ67 because it is way oversized, uses bellows focusing, the crop factor is too high, etc. It would be a niche product at best.

And if it's based on the 645AFD (which I suspect) then the improvement will be incremental at best. This is still a rather compromised platform.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152612\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

How about a ZD II using P30 / P45 + sensor and board?  That way, Mamiya can offer a dedicated digital platform to the partnership which would make it competitive to Hasselblad H3D II.  If this happens and is priced correctly, I think there is going to be a quite a few happy people.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Anders_HK on November 14, 2007, 01:30:59 am
Quote
How about a ZD II using P30 / P45 + sensor and board?  That way, Mamiya can offer a dedicated digital platform to the partnership which would make it competitive to Hasselblad H3D II.  If this happens and is priced correctly, I think there is going to be a quite a few happy people.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152620\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Yes with free complimentary upgrade for all current ZD oweners  

Rgds
Anders
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: jpjespersen on November 14, 2007, 02:04:53 am
Quote
How about a ZD II using P30 / P45 + sensor and board? That way, Mamiya can offer a dedicated digital platform to the partnership which would make it..
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152620\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


This is a great announcement, I just hope that its not closed system  I definitely like the freedom of owning a digital back that can be detached and put on various camera's.  .  I have faith.
This alliance will also hopefully solve the mamiya zd noise issues.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: mcfoto on November 14, 2007, 02:44:43 am
Hi
Yes Phase putting there know how into the ZDII camera. The camera is built ,it works but with a 3 inch screen, great buffer, 1 hour exposure .......etc.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: heinrichvoelkel on November 14, 2007, 03:02:41 am
Quote
Hi
Yes Phase putting there know how into the ZDII camera. The camera is built ,it works but with a 3 inch screen, great buffer, 1 hour exposure .......etc.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152648\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Wow,    ....   pricewise any funded info or some guesses.....!?


And what is hiding behind your etc.??? I'm curious....
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: jpjespersen on November 14, 2007, 03:03:37 am
Patience
Quote
Wow,    ....   pricewise any funded info or some guesses.....!?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152650\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: mcrepsej on November 14, 2007, 03:15:30 am
Quote
No. Did you know that in reality, it was a company in Sweden?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152475\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

........Hasy is based in Göteborg, Sweden and with a danish manager (and as I knew working from the old Imacon office in Copenhagen, Denmark) and PhaseOne based i Copenhagen.........and I'm a Dane.........so yes.    

McRepsej

Mamiya RZ IID and PhaseOne P45+....the best tool today  
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: heinrichvoelkel on November 14, 2007, 03:19:47 am
Quote
Patience
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152651\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I never felt this nervousness I have with digital today, when in the old days Kodak or Fuji or Agfa announced a new film....hmmm?! Good or bad, I don't know....?!
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: TechTalk on November 14, 2007, 03:38:59 am
Quote
........Hasy is based in Göteborg, Sweden and with a danish manager (and as I knew working from the old Imacon office in Copenhagen, Denmark) and PhaseOne based i Copenhagen.........and I'm a Dane.........so yes.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152653\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I have no idea what you're trying to say with your last post. But if it is some how related to the nonsense that you posted reagrding Phase One designing the electronics in the H1, It is lost on me.

For anyone that cares, Teleca Systems in Sweden supplied the electronics, camera software and communications interface for the H1–not Phase One.

Sorry to divert the thread. I just hate seeing peoples fantasies posted on web forums to be picked up and repeated by others.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: samuel_js on November 14, 2007, 04:43:23 am
Quote
I have no idea what you're trying to say with your last post. But if it is some how related to the nonsense that you posted reagrding Phase One designing the electronics in the H1, It is lost on me.

For anyone that cares, Teleca Systems in Sweden supplied the electronics, camera software and communications interface for the H1–not Phase One.

Sorry to divert the thread. I just hate seeing peoples fantasies posted on web forums to be picked up and repeated by others.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152657\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

So you're saying that P1 has nothing to do with the design of the H1?
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: heinrichvoelkel on November 14, 2007, 04:47:43 am
Quote
So you're saying that P1 has nothing to do with the design of the H1?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152659\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


wouldn't that be the perfect moment to start a new thread at the camera electronics forum....?!
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: michael on November 14, 2007, 05:14:44 am
Phase One has been working with Mamiya on this since last November. This was discussed at their dealer meeting at Photokina.

I interviewd the CEO of Phase One yesterday and will have lots more details in a few days as soon as I have a chance to write it up.

There will be leaf shutter lenses.

Michael


Quote
I can't imagine this will be anything we will see soon, look how long it has taken the Hy6 to materialize, and the ZD, etc.  And since it sounds like this is in reaction to Hassy ending the H2, it's not like it's something they have been working on for a long time if it's just being announced now.  Phase is notorious for announcing things well in advance of it actually shipping.

Time will tell....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152447\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: david o on November 14, 2007, 05:19:31 am
Quote
Phase One has been working with Mamiya on this since last November. This was discussed at their dealer meeting at Photokina.

I interviewd the CEO of Phase One yesterday and will have lots more details in a few days as soon as I have a chance to write it up.

There will be leaf shutter lenses.

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152664\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

 you have one hour to write it down before I collapse  
(nothing emotional it's just late on my part of the world)
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: amsp on November 14, 2007, 07:13:58 am
Oh happy days!  Now I don't have to buy a rz67 or that beige monstrosity hasselblad calls a camera

Quote
There will be leaf shutter lenses.

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152664\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Snook on November 14, 2007, 09:05:26 am
Leaf shuter lens.... wooooohoooo
That would be a godsend...:+}
PLEASE PLEASE MAMIYA!!!!  
Hopefully for the 645..:+}
Would it be cheaper to have a body that syncs faster or is that too difficult.. Seems like changing the body would almost be better, that way people could use the same lens they have now, Less profit for Mmaiya maybe in the long run tht way??
Well anything will be appreciated!!!
Snook
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: canmiya on November 14, 2007, 09:18:50 am
Quote
Phase One has been working with Mamiya on this since last November. This was discussed at their dealer meeting at Photokina.

I interviewd the CEO of Phase One yesterday and will have lots more details in a few days as soon as I have a chance to write it up.

There will be leaf shutter lenses.

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152664\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
thanks so much for posting this. the dealer i use here in ny told me the two companies were working together last year.   i did not feel comfortable posting this as the information, although from a trustworthy source was still second hand.  
perhaps this will silence the critics who have suggested or accused phase of sitting back and doing nothing while the other players have been advancing.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: amsp on November 14, 2007, 09:24:43 am
Quote
Leaf shuter lens.... wooooohoooo
That would be a godsend...:+}
PLEASE PLEASE MAMIYA!!!!  
Hopefully for the 645..:+}
Would it be cheaper to have a body that syncs faster or is that too difficult.. Seems like changing the body would almost be better, that way people could use the same lens they have now, Less profit for Mmaiya maybe in the long run tht way??
Well anything will be appreciated!!!
Snook
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152693\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Do you actually read the posts? Michael already confirmed they will make leaf shutter lenses. And of course it's for the 645 series, all the rz67 lenses have leaf shutter already. And no, making the shutter in the body move that fast doesn't seem to be technically possible, so it's not a greed thing.

If there is one thing I wish for that hasn't been discussed it's a tilt/shift lens or adapter, now that would be a thorn in hasselblad's ass
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Snook on November 14, 2007, 09:26:45 am
I must say it did help my decision to buy the P30 over the Aptus 22.. I was battling it for a while and I made the order for the P30... to go with the AFDII.
I sure hope they come up with some great new products together.. To tell you the truth I never like Hassleblad and they might have thought they were going to be a Monopoly but I guess that has changed!! For the better for US.
Snook
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: lance_schad on November 14, 2007, 09:28:04 am
Well this is very good news for those that are on the fence to what type of digital back / mount that they would like to go with or upgrade to.

Since Phase One has made it official that they will be working with Mamiya in coming out with a new platform that will use new and existing lenses people can feel confident in using the Mamiya 645AFD mount.

I have been suggesting to the people I have been speaking to that are looking to make the move purchase the Mamiya 645AFD mount and then if they have an existing RZ system, upgrade their body to the new ProIID model and use the adapter plate to use the Mamiya 645AFD back on both systems. So they will have a portable one and then a studio/faster flash sync system as well.
Also lenses for the 645FAD are plentiful out in the used market at great prices (for now) so photographers can put a nice kit together for a low cost. This in conjunction with all the promos that Phase One has with bundling either a free Mamiya 645FAFD body(P20+,P21+), Mamiya 645AFD Kit(P30+,P25+)or Mamiya 645AFD kit +28mm lens (P45+) demonstrates their commitment to the 645AFD mount.

Oh yeah you can also use this back with the Flexadapter, so you can have three-camera choices from one digital back.



Lance Schad
Capture Integration -MIAMI
lance@captureintegration.com
305-394-3196


**I am back, just started with CI working out of their Miami location.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Snook on November 14, 2007, 11:56:28 am
What adapter plate and how much do they run$$,
I just bought a P30 and have a AFDII.. there is a plate I can use to use it on the RZII as well or are you asking that they make one in the future.
Thanks for the info.
Snook
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: david o on November 14, 2007, 12:09:37 pm
Snook you should check ZDII adapter (http://http://www.mamiya.com/mamiya-zd-back-accessories-adapter-for-rz67-pro-iid.html)
and go thru Mamiya.com you may find lot of accessories...
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: lance_schad on November 14, 2007, 12:19:18 pm
Quote
That link doesn't work correctly, here it is:

Mamiya RZ Pro IID adapter (http://www.mamiya.com/mamiya-zd-back-accessories-adapter-for-rz67-pro-iid.html)

B&H page for the adapter (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/502724-REG/Mamiya_212_107_RZ_Digital_Back_Adapter.html)
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=152747\")


The Phase One Part Number is 70994 Mamiya RZ ProIID Adapter for Phase One Backs with Mamiya 645AFD fitting including view screens.  List Price is $1250.00

Remember this only works with the Mamiya RZ PRO IID body.


Eco-Digital has one listed on their site that is RZ67 to 645AFD. [a href=\"http://eco-digital.com/products/index.html]http://eco-digital.com/products/index.html[/url]
Not sure how it works, but I am sure you will need to use cables with it.

Lance Schad
Capture Integration -MIAMI
lance@captureintegration.com
305-394-3196
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: amsp on November 14, 2007, 12:21:32 pm
Quote
What adapter plate and how much do they run$$,
I just bought a P30 and have a AFDII.. there is a plate I can use to use it on the RZII as well or are you asking that they make one in the future.
Thanks for the info.
Snook
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152742\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Your understanding of the english language obviously isn't very good, which would indeed explain many of your weird posts. "I wish for" and "would be" both indicate that it is something that is not currently available and that I would like them to produce it. Again, I'm talking about the 645, since it already exists for the rz67.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: jpjespersen on November 14, 2007, 12:56:34 pm
There are tilt shift lenses made for Mamiya 645.  I just purchased a Hartblei 45mm Super Rotator tilt shift.  Its a really cool lens.
Quote
If there is one thing I wish for that hasn't been discussed it's a tilt/shift lens or adapter, now that would be a thorn in hasselblad's ass
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152702\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: amsp on November 14, 2007, 12:58:37 pm
I know, I meant a mamiya one, with better optics than the russian hartblei.

Quote
There are tilt shift lenses made for Mamiya 645.  I just purchased a Hartblei 45mm Super Rotator tilt shift.  Its a really cool lens.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152762\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: jpjespersen on November 14, 2007, 01:05:37 pm
I believe that its a Ukrainian manufacturer.
Quote
I know, I meant a mamiya one, with better optics than the russian hartblei.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152763\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: vgogolak on November 14, 2007, 01:17:23 pm
Lance,
If someone wanted to add a back, and has Contax and Hassey glass, what adapters are available for the Mamiya body for those lenses?

also what adapte for Mamiya glass on contax (Yes I know the M is 63.5 and the C is 64 mm, but Zork has don it even for infinity focus, no?)

Victor
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: digitalcameraman on November 14, 2007, 01:57:15 pm
Quote
What adapter plate and how much do they run$$,
I just bought a P30 and have a AFDII.. there is a plate I can use to use it on the RZII as well or are you asking that they make one in the future.
Thanks for the info.
Snook
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152742\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



Eric:

Mamiya RZ Digital Back Adapter for Mamiya RZ67 Pro IID Camera  
Mfr# 212-107 • B&H# MAADB67  
Price: $ 629.95
 
This adapter works fine with the Phase One backs. I have used it many times since the RZDII hit the market with P45, P30 and P21 . Enjoy the new image quality you are about discover. Once you go medium format you never go back.

Mamiya also has great ground glass with markings for all the different cameras. You can use these instead of a plastic mask on the RZIID body



Chris Snipes
President
Image Production
www.imageproduction.com

Phase One Test Studio Florida
New and Used Phase One Camera backs
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Snook on November 14, 2007, 03:24:21 pm
Thanks to most of you for the great information...
amsp, what is your porlbem(sp)? English is my first Language considering I was born in the USA..  
What happens is I am in the studio shooting and I am writing really fast...
Is that written well enough for you?
I hope so.  
Thanks Chris for the info..
I guess I am a part of your family some how now being that I am getting the P30 soon...:+}
Sorry for maybe another stupid question, but since they are differnt formats is the crop more on the 6X7 b/c it is a bigger format than the 645?
Thanks again...
Snook
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: david o on November 14, 2007, 03:30:20 pm
Quote
Thanks to most of you for the great information...
amsb, what is your problem? English is my first Language considering I was born in the USA..  
What happens is I am in the studio shooting and I am writing really fast...
Is that written well enough for you?
I hope so.  
Thanks Chris for the info..
I guess I am a part of your family some how now being that I am getting the P30 soon...:+}
Sorry for maybe another stupid question, but since they are differnt formats is the crop more on the 6X7 b/c it is a bigger format than the 645?
Thanks again...
Snook
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152796\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

 
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: amsp on November 14, 2007, 04:07:39 pm
I really didn't mean to be an ass or anything, I could care less where you are born, it's just that reading your posts I get the impression you either don't understand what's written or you just don't bother reading other people's posts and answers to your questions very carefully. I guess it's the latter then. Again, no actual offense meant.


Quote
Thanks to most of you for the great information...
amsp, what is your porlbem(sp)? English is my first Language considering I was born in the USA..  
What happens is I am in the studio shooting and I am writing really fast...
Is that written well enough for you?
I hope so.  
Thanks Chris for the info..
I guess I am a part of your family some how now being that I am getting the P30 soon...:+}
Sorry for maybe another stupid question, but since they are differnt formats is the crop more on the 6X7 b/c it is a bigger format than the 645?
Thanks again...
Snook
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152796\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: mcfoto on November 14, 2007, 04:14:17 pm
Hi
Sorry for any confusion but a ZDII is my wish. I really like the camera because it is so light weight. When I mean built the ZD camera already exists. To make a ZDII they would have to put a 3" screen, 33-39 sensor, Phase One know how, capture one software, higher iso, better noise..etc. I think it is possible & if they could keep the price down that would be a bonus. I also hope any future camera bodies are open or any new lenses will work with the current AFD body series. I still like renting the Aptus 22. With the current market position I think Phase & Mamiya had to do this & I wish them the best of luck. I also hope that Phase One & Mamiya personal read this form to hear what the working photographers are saying. It is the best of both worlds Phase One a leading digital back maker & Mamiya an experienced MF camera manufacturer.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Morgan_Moore on November 14, 2007, 04:15:35 pm
Quote
another stupid question, but since they are differnt formats is the crop more on the 6X7 b/c it is a bigger format than the 645?

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152796\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

An 80 on a 67 is the same as an 80 on a 645

Just an 80 is quite wide on a 67 and normal on a 645 because 67 is bigger than 645

If that makes sense.

So on a 67 with a p30 you use about half of the viewfinder wheras about 80% of a 645 viewfinder

(people will chime in with the exact amounts no doubt)

SO that is a bigger crop as a % of the whole view but using an 80 on a 645 or an 80 on a 67 will render the same image on the chip

S
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: david o on November 14, 2007, 04:20:12 pm
a little more detail now online...
phase CEO interview (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/hitched.shtml)
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: amsp on November 14, 2007, 04:20:56 pm
I've never been a fan of the ZD concept myself, I like the modularity and flexibility of a digital back, but I still think it might be a good thing to have in the product lineup. Especially as a budget alternative.

Quote
Hi
Sorry for any confusion but a ZDII is my wish. I really like the camera because it is so light weight. When I mean built the ZD camera already exists. To make a ZDII they would have to put a 3" screen, 33-39 sensor, Phase One know how, capture one software, higher iso, better noise..etc. I think it is possible & if they could keep the price down that would be a bonus. I also hope any future camera bodies are open or any new lenses will work with the current AFD body series. I still like renting the Aptus 22. With the current market position I think Phase & Mamiya had to do this & I wish them the best of luck. I also hope that Phase One & Mamiya personal read this form to hear what the working photographers are saying. It is the best of both worlds Phase One a leading digital back maker & Mamiya an experienced MF camera manufacturer.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152814\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Snook on November 14, 2007, 04:24:11 pm
Thanks Morgan, that is what I thought but was not sure...
And amsp we are talking Camera talk not the English language...
By the way I think more than half the people here are probably from a foreign country..
So you'll get that every once in a while...
You still threw me off on the Would be will be whatever you were babbling about.
But do not worry, It takes a lot to offend me...  
Snook
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: amsp on November 14, 2007, 04:27:42 pm
Crap! Why are they changing the mount on the new camera? I was hoping to use my current back with the new camera.. typical. Oh well, at least there's the new lenses.

Quote
a little more detail now online...
phase CEO interview (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/hitched.shtml)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152816\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: amsp on November 14, 2007, 04:30:33 pm
Yeah, that was some really advanced english right there, sorry for confusing you  Oh, and by the way, I'm a "foreigner" too

Quote
Thanks Morgan, that is what I thought but was not sure...
And amsp we are talking Camera talk not the English language...
By the way I think more than half the people here are probably from a foreign country..
So you'll get that every once in a while...
You still threw me off on the Would be will be whatever you were babbling about.
But do not worry, It takes a lot to offend me...  
Snook
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152820\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: david o on November 14, 2007, 04:32:27 pm
where do you see that they change the mount
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: amsp on November 14, 2007, 04:41:33 pm
Maybe I misunderstood, but I read the following as talk of a mount change: "The current existing range of Phase One backs will be made available for the new system", and "other lens and digital back makers will be able to design and sell compatible products, so it will not be a closed system."


Quote
where do you see that they change the mount
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152827\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Graham Mitchell on November 14, 2007, 04:44:56 pm
Quote
Since Phase One has made it official that they will be working with Mamiya in coming out with a new platform that will use new and existing lenses people can feel confident in using the Mamiya 645AFD mount.

Maybe I missed something but I didn't see where Phase announced that the new camera would use the 645AFD mount, so no-one should feel confident yet.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: amsp on November 14, 2007, 04:46:19 pm
I hope I'm wrong, maybe Michael can clarify this?
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Graham Mitchell on November 14, 2007, 04:46:34 pm
Quote
If there is one thing I wish for that hasn't been discussed it's a tilt/shift lens or adapter, now that would be a thorn in hasselblad's ass
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152702\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Rollei has had it for years, and now the Hy6 has it too.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: ixpressraf on November 14, 2007, 04:46:43 pm
From Micheals interview :
Hasselblad

        H3D camera with various back options. No backs other than those from Hasselblad can work on an H3 camera. No third party lenses. H1 and H2 discontinued.



Hasselblad does not only offer backs for its own H3 platform, but also for almost every other camera on the market except for the Hy6/Afi. The range CF and CF multishot offers great possibilities for those using more then one camera platform. I often switch between Hassieh, TC with V mount, digiflex, mamiya RZ and Fuji GX680. So it is only fair to mention that the hasselblad backs are not only for the H3 Camera.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: david o on November 14, 2007, 04:49:15 pm
Quote
Maybe I missed something but I didn't see where Phase announced that the new camera would use the 645AFD mount, so no-one should feel confident yet.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152833\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
you're right but it says "The new camera system will be based on the Mamiya lens mount." Which one though...
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: amsp on November 14, 2007, 04:52:07 pm
You're talking about the lens mount, I'm talking about the DB mount.

Quote
you're right but it says "The new camera system will be based on the Mamiya lens mount." Which one though...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152839\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: david o on November 14, 2007, 04:56:25 pm
Quote
You're talking about the lens mount, I'm talking about the DB mount.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152842\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I know but again nothing about new DB mount... could be though. Ask Michael.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: michael on November 14, 2007, 04:57:23 pm
Good point. I've added this to the report.

Michael


Quote
From Micheals interview :
Hasselblad

        H3D camera with various back options. No backs other than those from Hasselblad can work on an H3 camera. No third party lenses. H1 and H2 discontinued.



Hasselblad does not only offer backs for its own H3 platform, but also for almost every other camera on the market except for the Hy6/Afi. The range CF and CF multishot offers great possibilities for those using more then one camera platform. I often switch between Hassieh, TC with V mount, digiflex, mamiya RZ and Fuji GX680. So it is only fair to mention that the hasselblad backs are not only for the H3 Camera.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152837\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: amsp on November 14, 2007, 05:01:11 pm
So Michael, could you clarify if we are indeed talking about a new back mount? Thanks.

Quote
Good point. I've added this to the report.

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152845\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: michael on November 14, 2007, 05:27:00 pm
My understanding is, yes, the new camera will have a new mount.

Michael
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Quentin on November 14, 2007, 05:30:53 pm
Mamiya + Phase, open system?  Sounds like goodnight H3 closed system to me.  Great news.

Quentin
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: amsp on November 14, 2007, 05:35:36 pm
Thanks, that's too bad. If the camera is a big step up from the AFD I hope at least the "nominal fee" of changing mount is reasonable.

Quote
My understanding is, yes, the new camera will have a new mount.

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152851\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: amsp on November 14, 2007, 05:38:26 pm
The lens mount will still be the same, let's not confuse the two. You will be able to use the new lenses on your old AFD, but you won't be able to mount your current back on the new cam. Still sucks though, agreed.

Quote
Mamiya should be clubbed to death if it is not going to continue the AFD MSC mount that it's had since what 2001. Great way to lock out every AFD mount owner from the new system. Open system my butt.

I would love to have the chance to use new leaf shutter lenses on my current AFD with Aptus 22 but if the mount is incompatible, then my feelings toward Mamiya will certainly go sour. No cheap mount change for Leaf backs at all.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152856\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Quentin on November 14, 2007, 05:43:06 pm
I'm getting confused.  A quote from the interview reads

"The new camera system will be based on the Mamiya lens mount. Previous lenses will be able to be fitted. A new line of AF lenses will be made available"

It might be that a new mount would add some additional connectivity or features, but old lenses could still be fitted and used.  What is not clear is if current AF lenbses would still be AF with the "new" mount.

Quentin
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: david o on November 14, 2007, 06:22:24 pm
Quote
My understanding is, yes, the new camera will have a new mount.

Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152851\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Michael,
call the CEO back...
 
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Mort54 on November 14, 2007, 06:27:25 pm
Quote
My main frustration is that current AFD mount digital backs will simply not be usable with the new camera.
According to Michael's interview, they say anyone who bought a back in the last 12 months, or who have the 3 year warranty, get a free mount change, and that only a nominal fee would be charged for backs falling outside of this criteria. Of course, that does mean you can't use the converted back on your existing Mamiya body anymore, but most of the cost is in the lenses, so maybe that's OK.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Mort54 on November 14, 2007, 06:29:43 pm
Quote
I have a Leaf Aptus back, so no reasonable mount change as far as cost.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152872\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
OK, I see your point. My bad.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: amsp on November 14, 2007, 06:40:52 pm
Again, the current AFD will be able to use the new leaf shutter lenses. I don't get all this confusion.

Quote
My main frustration is that current AFD mount digital backs will simply not be usable with the new camera. That pisses me off. Sure I am very pleased with the quality I am getting and that won't change, but I knew from the start I would need the option of higher sync which while the RZ is still viable, how nice it would be that this new camera would take the place as the best of both, small and with leaf shutters, instead of the much larger RZ body.

Oh well.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152867\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: samuel_js on November 14, 2007, 06:46:34 pm
I don't see the problem. The camera is an open system so there will be adapters for current non-P1 backs. I see this decision normal because if you make the camera with Mamiya mount, anyone making a DB compatible will be making it compatible with the new P1 camera and Mamiya AFD automatically, and this could be to just give too much compatibility.
 As Michael said, this camera is a P1 design so is normal that P1 wants their own mount. And the reason is not economical , because P1 owners (who purchased within 12 months) will get free back swap, and the rest of owners for a nominal fee. And their are closing none! Eventually, Mamiya will make a new back with the new mount and offer swaps like P1.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: amsp on November 14, 2007, 07:03:17 pm
"The new camera system will be based on the Mamiya lens mount" Besides, if it's forward compatible it's backwards compatible.

Quote
No where does it say that the new lenses will be back compatible, only current AFD lenses will mount the new body.

"Previous lenses will be able to be fitted."

So we have no assurance that these leaf shutter lenses will work on current AFD(II) bodies. Correct? Enlighten me if I am wrong here.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152883\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: bradleygibson on November 14, 2007, 07:42:31 pm
Has anyone heard if it will be 645 or 6x6 or something else?
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: pss on November 14, 2007, 07:46:23 pm
i just love the fact that they will make a hassV lens adapter.....

maybe i am dense, but i still don't understand if this will have a new DB mount (if my mamiya mount P30 will fit on it)....that way it still fits the 645 the RZ and the new one....i am less worried about the lenses fitting on RZ or 645, i use different lenses for each camera anyway....

this should really give hass something to think about....i feel a little bad for the Hy6....
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: amsp on November 14, 2007, 07:49:32 pm
I think that would be very uncharacteristic of Mamiya really. If they wanted to force people to buy a new camera with a new set of lenses they would have waited with the release of the 28mm and new zoom and made it incompatible with the AFD. JMHO.

Quote
See I disagree. If we all haven't learned yet with all this gear over the years, is that if it doesn't explicitly say so, I wouldn't just assume.

The new camera may use the same physical mount but could easily have more contacts for the additional requirements of full leaf shutter operation. Why not. If so, then that would not be backward compatible. That's all I'm trying to say as far as what has been presented.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152892\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 14, 2007, 08:25:35 pm
Quote
Mamiya + Phase, open system?  Sounds like goodnight H3 closed system to me.  Great news.

Quentin
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152854\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That's indeed a good news, but you've got to wonder who is going to manufacture back for this new camera besides Phaseone.

My guess is that Leaf and Sinar probably won't, this leaves only Hassy. They probably should make their back available for the Mamiya, but will they?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: eronald on November 14, 2007, 09:22:56 pm
Quote
That's indeed a good news, but you've got to wonder who is going to manufacture back for this new camera besides Phaseone.

My guess is that Leaf and Sinar probably won't, this leaves only Hassy. They probably should make their back available for the Mamiya, but will they?

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152912\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Mamiya can be relied upon to supply a cheap  back . At least one cheaper than the Phase model

Edmund
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: pss on November 14, 2007, 09:39:47 pm
Quote
That's indeed a good news, but you've got to wonder who is going to manufacture back for this new camera besides Phaseone.

My guess is that Leaf and Sinar probably won't, this leaves only Hassy. They probably should make their back available for the Mamiya, but will they?

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152912\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

if sinar and leaf now only make backs for the Hy6/afi, they might as well close down right now....this is IMO where hass went wrong....people want to have the option to choose a camera and a back....i don't think someone who really wants a leaf back can be forced to get the afi with it....either way..like michael says phase has 50-70% of the DB market..with hass coming in aggressively, where does that leave sinar and leaf? they have to give their customers options....which is great for everybody....
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: pprdigital on November 14, 2007, 10:33:36 pm
Quote
if sinar and leaf now only make backs for the Hy6/afi, they might as well close down right now....this is IMO where hass went wrong....people want to have the option to choose a camera and a back....i don't think someone who really wants a leaf back can be forced to get the afi with it....either way..like michael says phase has 50-70% of the DB market..with hass coming in aggressively, where does that leave sinar and leaf? they have to give their customers options....which is great for everybody....

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152925\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


I am all for Phase One staying in business, and the same for Mamiya. A competitive market is a strong market.

My bias may be showing, but that said, I have a different opinion here. This whole notion of open is a joke. I predict in 3 to 5 years, there will be no more digital backs period. There is no question that an integrated solution is a superior solution - whether it comes from Leaf, Sinar, Hasselblad, or Phase One. Phase One simply got outbid or outmaneuvered and they're playing catch up. This whole "open" notion is very temporary. Again - open to what? Other than Mamiya, open to what? Great, Mamiya (oh, oops, forgot, and Phase!) give you open systems so you have choice. To do what? To put what on it?

The winner in the future is the company who overall has the BEST solution and sells and supports it the most effectively. 5 years from now, a company proclaiming how "open" they are will have absolutely no advantage in the market place. Phase One has no choice but to extoll the virtues of "open" because they have no advanced integration. And the idea of Phase One historically being so pro-open is ridiculous. Let's see, can you use Capture One with a Leaf back? Um, no. Can you put a Phase One back on a Contax 645 and then also a Hasselblad H2? Um, no. So much for "openness".

I believe this "openness" is inherently temporary and is a mirage.

Also, if Michael has stated that Phase One has 50%-70% market share, he's been treated to too many cocktails with the Vikings. Those figures are complete BS.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: j.miller on November 14, 2007, 10:48:28 pm
Considering PhaseOne has indicated that Hasselblad C-Series lenses will be an option (via an adapter), that would almost certainly require that the camera be 645 or smaller. The flange focal distance of Hasselblad C-Series lenses would only allow them to be adapted (adapted not mounted) to a format with a shorter flange focal distance, and still keep infinity focus. PhaseOne has also indicated that they will be using the same lens mount as the Mamiya 645 system, which would also rule out the possibility of it being a larger-than-645 format.

Regards,

Jordan Miller

Quote
Has anyone heard if it will be 645 or 6x6 or something else?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152897\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Mort54 on November 14, 2007, 10:57:29 pm
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Phase One took the wrong road and now they have to slap their label on some new Mamiya camera
Steve, I think you're right regarding the whole "open" claim, but regarding the source of the new camera, I believe Michael reported that it was designed by Phase One, with help from Mamiya. Even if there is some marketing speak in that statement, it hardly sounds like Phase One is simply going to be slapping their label on a new Mamiya camera.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: pprdigital on November 14, 2007, 11:01:03 pm
Quote
Steve, I think you're right regarding the whole "open" claim, but regarding the source of the new camera, I believe Michael reported that it was designed by Phase One, with help from Mamiya. Even if there is some marketing speak in that statement, it hardly sounds like Phase One is simply going to be slapping their label on a new Mamiya camera.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152943\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

That is quite possible and I could be wrong there. In fact, I hovered over that sentence for a bit, unsure of why, and now I know. I don't have enough information for that sentence to work (not that I really meant it literally).

I've edited that post.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Mort54 on November 14, 2007, 11:02:45 pm
Regarding the leaf shutter lenses for the new camera, isn't it possible that this is just via the V adapter? The Hassy V lenses are leaf shutter lenses, so by providing a V adapter, you get leaf shutter lenses. I'm hoping it's more than this, but .....
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: John Camp on November 14, 2007, 11:05:30 pm
I agree with Steve Hendrix on the future development of these systems -- Phase and Mamiya each had to do *something*. Mamiya had come up somewhat short and somewhat late with their MF solution (not that it's bad, but it's not exactly cutting edge, either), and in the game of musical-cameras, the other camera systems had been taken and Phase was out there alone. Their conjunction was almost inevitable.

But they waited so late, and the urgency to do something is now so great (before people get locked into Hassy or Hy6 lens/body solutions), that what they've come up with is a kind of temporary, hybrid solution.

It gives Phase a good camera body and lenses, and Mamiya access to arguably the best back, now. But five years from now, when they come out with the NEXT camera, I'd be willing it's a lot more integrated -- and a lot more closed. They are, essentially, all evolving toward something that will look like the H3D.

In the past, the biggest MF players were Hassy and Mamiya, which had slightly different markets. I  wouldn't be surprised to see the market split the same way (based on price and perceived quality differences) with the Hy6 system becoming the Contax-like third player.

I also have to say that I would not be suprised to see one of these companies bought out by the other, or a merger. I can't see Phase going along with a split system, only to allow Mamiya, five years down the road and with its own high-end solution, tellling them to take a hike. Phase would then, truly, be out of luck. I have to believe that there's some long-term, very tight contractural relationship here, that will not allow that to happen.

Speaking of "out of luck," the company with the Contax rights...

JC
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: bradleygibson on November 14, 2007, 11:20:49 pm
Quote
Considering PhaseOne has indicated that Hasselblad C-Series lenses will be an option (via an adapter), that would almost certainly require that the camera be 645 or smaller.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152941\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm not sure why you say that providing Hassy C-series compatibility would almost certainly require 645 or smaller.  Since these Hassy lenses cover a 6x6 image circle, they could be used up to that size, provided the adapter is designed correctly.

Quote
PhaseOne has also indicated that they will be using the same lens mount as the Mamiya 645 system, which would also rule out the possibility of it being a larger-than-645 format.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152941\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I haven't heard that the lens mount will be the same--if you are referring to Michael's report, he stated that the new mount will be *based on* the Mamiya lens mount.  This wording and the report of adapters being available for existing Mamiya lenses leads me to believe the mount won't be the same (perhaps just a change to eliminate any mechanical linkages, or perhaps the new camera will be something other than 645 or 6x7?)

Quote
The flange focal distance of Hasselblad C-Series lenses would only allow them to be adapted (adapted not mounted) to a format with a shorter flange focal distance, and still keep infinity focus. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152941\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm not sure what you mean by adapted but not mounted (what would one do with the lens if not mounting it?), but the Hasselblad C series flange distance is 74.9mm.  By comparison, Mamiya 645 is 63.3mm.  So, if Mamiya wants to offer compatibility with C-series lenses, on a mount no longer than the 645's flange distance (else 645 lenses will require additional optics to mount on the new camera) the adapter must be 11.6mm thick.  That is plenty of room to build a good, solid adapter.

So I don't have any information on the format of the new camera, but it does seem that they are being careful in their wording thus far, and it seems to be at least technically possible to create a larger than 645 platform.

I'm just wondering if they've decided to do so or not...

-Brad
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: rethmeier on November 14, 2007, 11:27:58 pm
I believe that Sinar will be always making DB with different adapters.
There will be always people that shoot with tilt-shift cameras etc.

Regarding Phase and Mamiya, they should mimmic the Hy6 concept.
I.O.W A smaller RZ with a rotating back.

Cheers,

WR.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Mort54 on November 14, 2007, 11:28:06 pm
Quote
.....what they've come up with is a kind of temporary, hybrid solution.
That's quite an interesting statement, considering we know next to NOTHING about this new camera :-)

From what information do you conclude that the new camera will be a temporary, hybrid solution? If it indeed was designed by Phase One, as Michael asserts, I suspect they've been working on it for quite some time. After all, Michael reported they struck an initial agreement last November. I seriously doubt the two parties got together last November and started from scratch. More likely both parties got together last November and compared notes on what they've been working on for the past few years, and concluded they would be stronger working together.

Quote
It gives Phase a good camera body and lenses, and Mamiya access to arguably the best back, now.
I'm not sure what you mean by it gives Phase a good camera body - if Phase designed it, then they aren't really being given anything. Yes, they are getting Mamiya's mount, technology know-how, and manufacturing resources, but it appears they gave themselves the body.

Quote
They are, essentially, all evolving toward something that will look like the H3D.
I don't think anybody is evolving toward something that will look like the H3D. I suspect they're all evolving toward something that looks like a high end DSLR, except with a bigger sensor. The H3D isn't the first instance of a highly integrated system by a long shot.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: bradleygibson on November 14, 2007, 11:47:55 pm
I must say that I have to disagree with the "closed systems are the only way" sentiments expressed by some on this board recently.

Please understand that I don't have a Hasselblad H system and am not coming from the perspective of a customer who feels like he has been abandoned (although I can empathize with those who feel that way).

I feel that Hasselblad (and Jenoptik's) closed strategy is a viable and reasonable approach to business, as long as they are clear with their customers about who can play and who can't.  Sinar has been (mostly) clear and up-front about this.  Hasselblad clearly surprised many with their recent moves with the H3 locking out other backs, and their HCD lenses not functioning on H1's and H2's.  I think surprising your customers and potential customers in this way is not a good long-term business plan, and Hassy knows this.

Going forward, I think (and hope) we'll see a lot less of this, but I believe Hasselblad does intend to follow a more Canon/Nikon model for upgrades going forward (by providing a minimal trade-in value for older systems, they are encouraging buyers to sell on their own to upgrade to the latest bodies).  It remains to be seen if a new, higher-resolution back will require upgrading the camera as well, or if it will be made available to any previous generations.  It would be nice if Hasselblad would clarify this one way or another for all of us.

Regardless, as I have stated, I feel this is a fine and even reasonable business model, provided it is made clear up front.  But I do not feel that this is the only way to be profitable in the MFDB market.  It's just one way, and there are others.  I suspect, if Phase and Mamiya do things right, we will see that demonstrated in the not too distant future.  I do wish them luck, because personally, I prefer choice to the convenience of a closed package.

Some have cited the superiority of integrated offerings, but again, I question this.  There were many reports of lock-ups in the early H systems, even with all Hasselblad components.  Every new system has its growing pains, integrated or not.  And once the teething pains are over, a well-designed open system can function every bit as effectively, efficiently and reliably as a closed one.

So, I'll get off my soapbox now, I just wanted to express the sentiment that just because an approach is working for some it doesn't mean there's not another way.  Just the interest in this thread in such a short time is some indication that there is more than a little interest in Phase/Mamiya's plan.  I hope they are also successful, so that the medium format marketplace is a vibrant, competitive industry with us, the photographers benefiting.

Best regards,
Brad
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: godtfred on November 15, 2007, 02:11:42 am
Quote
like michael says phase has 50-70% of the DB market..
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152925\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I can not believe these numbers based on my own experience here in Norway. There is at least a hassy HxD system for every Phase/Leaf/Sinar/Mamiya shooter I come across. Then again, Norway is not the entire world  

-axel
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: mcfoto on November 15, 2007, 02:47:04 am
Hi
They say an open system, which means not closed. If true don't you think that Leaf, Sinar & Mamiya will build backs for this new system. Leaf & Sinar have everything to gain sell more backs. Depends on price if the new Mamiya/Phase body is less expensive there will be an advantage here. One thing we have to take into account that the MAC group in the US is the agent for Mamiya & also the agent for Leaf. Now I would think that Leaf will build backs for this new mount if it is an open system. These are early days & we don't know the full details yet. If Mamiya can still build affordable lenses & bodies that will be there advantage. I still believe in an open system.
Thanks Denis
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Dustbak on November 15, 2007, 02:50:09 am
Now, the integrated superior solution comes in again. I have heard that so many times now.

Can anyone give a couple of reasons why this should be superior over an 'open solution' that provides 3rd parties with developer tools?

I have never heard one good sincere reason why an integrated solution is better.

I can give more than one reason why I believe an open solution is superior and leads to better products.

Better for us, photographers that is!
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: pss on November 15, 2007, 02:52:50 am
i really wonder why the idea of the "integrated system" is supposed to be the future? canon and nikon are integrated systems and so is the H3D but i personally never liked the 35m/SLR shooting "style" so why does everybody seem to think that this is where everything will go? if it does, canon or nikon will mop the floor with hasselblad!

this is not about open or closed (i agree with steve, there is no such thing anyway, well at least there is no really open, but there is an attempt at really closed) ...this is about having options...

i really don't see myself spending the rest of my shooting days looking into a DSLR finder....i actually prefer rangefinders to SLR finders....i want the option to use a SLR,  WLF and a "large format,T/S camera...and preferably all with one back which i will probably upgrade every couple of years....i don't want to have a different digital workflow for every different shoot....having one back guarantees that....

nobody will ever make the one body that does it all...because if it is the size of a leica it will be too small for some things and if it is the size of a RZ it will be too heavy to carry around!...just like you won't go pick up your lumber in a ferrari...
so i don't see why it has to be ONE package....

also: i love apple...i think they just do amazing things....love their hardware, love their software....that does not mean that aperture is the best solution.....i really don't see how it will ever be possible for one company to have the best bodies, lenses, backs and software...sorry, don't believe that will ever happen....i love my phase back, but C1 is on its way out and i don't ever see it coming back, compared to LR....that's the way it goes.....will this new phase camera be the best camera ever? seriously doubt it, but if it gives me a 3rd, more contemporary option to the 645 and the RZ, i will definitely get one....

also: the 3 year 24hr thing (like sinar with the Hy6) really sounds great....

anyway i am hoping it will be a mini RZ, which i am pretty sure it won't be....oh well...
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Dustbak on November 15, 2007, 02:54:37 am
Before Thierry chimes in  I thought it was 5 year garantuee.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 15, 2007, 03:50:00 am
Quote
i really wonder why the idea of the "integrated system" is supposed to be the future? canon and nikon are integrated systems and so is the H3D but i personally never liked the 35m/SLR shooting "style" so why does everybody seem to think that this is where everything will go? if it does, canon or nikon will mop the floor with hasselblad!

this is not about open or closed (i agree with steve, there is no such thing anyway, well at least there is no really open, but there is an attempt at really closed) ...this is about having options...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152986\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well, there are real advantages to an integrated solution.

- Having a single vendor to deal with in case of problem is a huge plus,
- It is much easier to optimize the image path accross lenses, sensors and software designed by a single company,
- You can discount some elements knowing that money will come from another source
- ...

Why did I buy a high end Denon DVD player together with my Denon AV amp? Because that DVD player was a good performer, but also because I knew I could connect them with a single network cable in pure direct digital mode. There might have been a slighly better DVD player from another brand, but I selected mine because of the benefits of an integrated system.

The same goes with cameras.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Quentin on November 15, 2007, 04:11:58 am
So much negativity.  A new system, with old Mamiya lenses capable of being used, free upgrade to recent Phase purchasers, open system.  If it was any more compatable, it would not be new.  Short of coming to your apartment and serenading you, I don't honestly see how much more a new camera system could offer current users looking for a viable upgrade path  Of course the full product details are not yet available, but I doubt Phase and Mamiya, with their combined and complimentary experience, would design a dog.  It souds like it nshould be a winner.  

Price remains an issue.  Phase One are not exactly cheap, and Mamiya have always offered good value kit.  How will that circle be squared?

Quentin
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Dustbak on November 15, 2007, 04:23:15 am
Quote
Well, there are real advantages to an integrated solution.

- Having a single vendor to deal with in case of problem is a huge plus,
- It is much easier to optimize the image path accross lenses, sensors and software designed by a single company,
- You can discount some elements knowing that money will come from another source
- ...

Why did I buy a high end Denon DVD player together with my Denon AV amp? Because that DVD player was a good performer, but also because I knew I could connect them with a single network cable in pure direct digital mode. There might have been a slighly better DVD player from another brand, but I selected mine because of the benefits of an integrated system.

The same goes with cameras.

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152993\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Why would dealing with one single vendor be a plus? If I don't like the vendor I have no alternatives!

There is no reason why optimisation would be easier. The same spec's that are floating internally can be supllied to 3rd parties for development. In my experience companies that tend to do everything by themselves get sloppy with documentation which doesn't help the process. There is also a lesser incentive to perform. You cut-off all other forms of development that might be done by other parties.

Do you really believe you will get a discount, when you can only buy from one party?

Not sure why you come up with audio. Maybe you should have a look at Windows. Do you want all your software being made by MS only? Count to think of it MS has a very large 3rd party developer programme with MSDN. They supply you with all sorts of stuff & every form of help you might be asking for, naturally at a a price.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: amsp on November 15, 2007, 06:03:21 am
I think there is way too much negative speculation and reading into the choice of words in Michael's interview. Remember these are not straight from the horse's mouth so to speak. I think both Mamiya and P1 know that their strength in competing with the other companies would be compatibility, not remaking hasselblad's mistake of closing out their entire current customer base. I think the new camera will use the current AFD lens mount, period, and maybe even the change of back interface was a misunderstanding. Whichever it is, I prefer not panicking just yet.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Graham Mitchell on November 15, 2007, 06:55:42 am
Quote
i want the option to use a SLR,  WLF and a "large format,T/S camera...and preferably all with one back

+1

And this makes sensor cleaning much easier too.

And I don't want to throw away a camera body every time I upgrade a sensor.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Graham Mitchell on November 15, 2007, 06:58:44 am
Quote
Why did I buy a high end Denon DVD player together with my Denon AV amp?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152993\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Actually, high-end audio is an excellent example of using components from different specialist companies together to build the best system. I don't think I've ever seen a true high end system all made by the one manufacturer.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: godtfred on November 15, 2007, 07:03:14 am
Quote
Actually, high-end audio is an excellent example of using components from different specialist companies together to build the best system. I don't think I've ever seen a true high end system all made by the one manufacturer.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153016\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Exellent example.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: ynp on November 15, 2007, 08:27:47 am
Very interesting announcement and I like the part about the openness of the system.

Somebody on the P1 User Forum claimed that :>>both the lens mount and the DB mount will remain unchanged from the AFD II, so your investment is secure. The new Phase One camera will be an open system>> http://forum.phaseone.com/viewtopic.php?t=4435 (http://forum.phaseone.com/viewtopic.php?t=4435).
I am not sure how reliable is the poster on the P1 forum.

I have no investment in Mamiya, but a pro who I share my studio with is upgrading her Mamiya version of the P20 and she is supposed to get her 30+ in December through a "grey import channel" to save some money on import duties. Shall I advice her to cancel her order and go through an official dealers to get an access to new deals ( like a free camera etc.)?

BTW. There is a funny rumour here in Russia that Leica will be building a new generation of R  AF lenses for " bigger that 24 x 36 sensor". Maybe Leica is the mysterious European lens manufacturer mentioned in the thread? Or they meant the Zeiss V series lenses?

Yevgeny
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: amsp on November 15, 2007, 12:04:09 pm
It has now been confirmed people, nothing changes, not the back mount and not the lens mount. Full compatibility! Oh yes
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: espressogeek on November 15, 2007, 01:10:26 pm
So does anything think that phase will add  zd support to C1?
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: jing q on November 15, 2007, 01:38:33 pm
Quote
It has now been confirmed people, nothing changes, not the back mount and not the lens mount. Full compatibility! Oh yes
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153093\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

that means I can use my leaf with it!woohooo
all that's needed is just leaf shutter lenses...*can't wait!*
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on November 15, 2007, 10:02:31 pm
This was posted at the PhaseOne owners forum by a Phase One Staff called Eric... and confirmed by Ulf Liljegren, also from PhaseOne.

"I am happy to confirm that both the lens mount and the DB mount will remain unchanged from the AFD II, so your investment is secure. The new Phase One camera will be an open system.
Regards,
Eric"

I asked Ulf


--ME:Interesting that you say "The new Phase One camera"

The camera is not Mamiya but Phase One with Mamiya mount?

Of course this is a rhetorical question... unless you want to elaborate...

--ULF: The camera is a collaboration between Phase One and Mamiya.
_________________
Kind Regards
Ulf Liljegren
Phase One

So the camera may or may not be a Phase One or Mamiya but a "colaboration".

If it is built like my P 25 it will be all metal, as minimalistic as Mamiya, robust and energy efficient.

It is interesting to see all the players in terms of what they sell.

Hasselblad --- Name and marketing / some design / digital back /
Fujifilm -- some design of camera / camera and lens manufacturing / no back
Rollei -- some design of camera / no back
Sinar -- some design of camera / digital backs for at least 2 systems
Leaf --  some design of camera / digital backs for at least 2 systems ?
Phase-- some design of camera / digital backs
Mamiya -- one camera system design and manufacture / some design of new system with Phase /manufacture of Phase camera / design and manufacture of optics for the 2 systems / digital back
Kodak and Delsa -- sensor manufacturing


Who do you think has more business in MF ?
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Graham Mitchell on November 15, 2007, 11:13:58 pm
Quote
It is interesting to see all the players in terms of what they sell....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153226\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

But this 'table' is not correct, and is meaningless.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: mcfoto on November 15, 2007, 11:33:42 pm
Hi
I just read the Phase One form & 2 Phase staff confirmed that the DB mount will be the same. So it is a new body that will accept leaf shutter lenses or will the leaf shutter lenses work on the AFDII?  Sounds good to me & I am very happy with the AFDII body. If it is a body for the new leaf shutter lenses plus the others, then I will upgrade my AFD body. This is a true win win situation.
Thanks Denis
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: John_Black on November 15, 2007, 11:37:28 pm
With a 1/125 sync on the AFD II, how would you reap the benefits of a leaf shutter?  I'm guessing the AFD shutter would still be opening by the time the leaf shutter had gone through its complete cycle.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Graham Mitchell on November 15, 2007, 11:39:45 pm
Quote
With a 1/125 sync on the AFD II, how would you reap the benefits of a leaf shutter?  I'm guessing the AFD shutter would still be opening by the time the leaf shutter had gone through its complete cycle.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153241\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I assume the focal plane shutter would stay open for as long as a leaf shutter lens is attached, effectively eliminating it from the camera.

People are dreaming if they think the existing bodies will handle new leaf shutter lenses.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: mcfoto on November 16, 2007, 01:33:20 am
Hi
Here is a press release from Mamiya USA.

http://www.mamiya.com/news-events-press-releases.html (http://www.mamiya.com/news-events-press-releases.html)
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: david o on November 16, 2007, 01:36:43 am
Quote
Hi
Here is a press release from Mamiya USA.

http://www.mamiya.com/news-events-press-releases.html (http://www.mamiya.com/news-events-press-releases.html)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153251\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

"develop unique digital camera solutions in the coming years, including new feature combinations not in the market today"

I would love to read your imagination on that...
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Morgan_Moore on November 16, 2007, 02:13:04 am
Just a thought on 'open' platforms

I am a fan of 'open' and was pretty p'ssed off to be closed out of the blad lenses

BUT

I think the future of DBs will require a lot more information 'talk' between the chip and the camera

eg 'tuning of lenses' to a specific back body combo

live view stuff

AF stuff

etc

All seem to require information to be passed from the chip to the camera

But surely the current AFD comunication protocols are too limiting to ensure future competitiveness

There is also 'lens' correction posibbly including shift and tilt information which needs more info than the current protocol cameras give to the chip  I would suspect

It seems like they need a new kind of camera/back OS for this talk to happen - it should of course be 'open' because then third parties (like DXO) will be able to come to the party with thier special skillsets

S
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: paul_jones on November 16, 2007, 03:02:33 am
Quote
Hi
I just read the Phase One form & 2 Phase staff confirmed that the DB mount will be the same. So it is a new body that will accept leaf shutter lenses or will the leaf shutter lenses work on the AFDII?  Sounds good to me & I am very happy with the AFDII body. If it is a body for the new leaf shutter lenses plus the others, then I will upgrade my AFD body. This is a true win win situation.
Thanks Denis
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153239\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


the old mamiya pro required you shoot with the focal plane shutter at a 30th to work. using a leaf shutter with a focal plane shutter requires quite a process, trigger the shutter, leaf shutter closes, focal plane opens, leaf shutter opens, makes the exposure, leaf shutter closes, focal plane closes, leaf shutter opens for viewing.
i doubt it could work with exising bodies, as it would need either a mechanical triiger on the body like the old pros, or some decent power from the body to power a motor on the lens to do this.
it would be far easier to design the function into the new camera body.

i hope this camera turns out good, i use to be a fan of mamiya in the film days. but i really dislike the afd.

paul
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: samuel_js on November 16, 2007, 03:29:13 am
Quote
the old mamiya pro required you shoot with the focal plane shutter at a 30th to work. using a leaf shutter with a focal plane shutter requires quite a process, trigger the shutter, leaf shutter closes, focal plane opens, leaf shutter opens, makes the exposure, leaf shutter closes, focal plane closes, leaf shutter opens for viewing.
i doubt it could work with exising bodies, as it would need either a mechanical triiger on the body like the old pros, or some decent power from the body to power a motor on the lens to do this.
it would be far easier to design the function into the new camera body.

i hope this camera turns out good, i use to be a fan of mamiya in the film days. but i really dislike the afd.

paul
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153261\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Or the camera will recognize the lens and open/deactivate the fp shutter if the attached lens has leaf shutter. Or maybe a personal function in the camera, because some lenses may not have electronical connectors.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: godtfred on November 16, 2007, 04:36:02 am
Quote
With a 1/125 sync on the AFD II, how would you reap the benefits of a leaf shutter?  I'm guessing the AFD shutter would still be opening by the time the leaf shutter had gone through its complete cycle.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153241\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The solution to this is as simple as letting the camera open the curtain shutter slightly ahead of the leaf shutter. Were talking a very short time, and "almost" not noticeable by the user. (I believe this is how the H and V series function with their help shutters in the rear of the camera? Or do these actually have a 1/800 (1/500) top speed?)

Having both could actually be a big plus, using the existing mamiya lenses and a curtain shutter at the rear, you could get 1/4000 as a top speed for sports and similar. When needing to use flash, pop on a leaf shutter lens, the camera has connectors that recognise this and automatically open the curtain slightly ahead of the leaf shutter, and closes it again slightly later. The backs don't have enough speed yet for the limitation to be in the camera, and the performance would be more than enough for outdoor flash shooters.

-axel
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: hvk on November 16, 2007, 06:56:53 am
Quote
The solution to this is as simple as letting the camera open the curtain shutter slightly ahead of the leaf shutter.

On the 645 AF/AFD, the shutter disappears when the back is removed (for protection).

Is there a reason for not doing the same when the body detects a lens with a leaf shutter is mounted?

/Henrik
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: godtfred on November 16, 2007, 07:09:43 am
Quote
On the 645 AF/AFD, the shutter disappears when the back is removed (for protection).

Is there a reason for not doing the same when the body detects a lens with a leaf shutter is mounted?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153293\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
There might be some trouble with the photosites of the back being hit by light all the time before the actual exposure is being made...

-axel
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: amsp on November 16, 2007, 07:51:53 am
Quote
I assume the focal plane shutter would stay open for as long as a leaf shutter lens is attached, effectively eliminating it from the camera.

People are dreaming if they think the existing bodies will handle new leaf shutter lenses.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153242\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Why wouldn't they work on the AFD? Care to elaborate?
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Graham Mitchell on November 16, 2007, 08:16:09 am
Quote
There might be some trouble with the photosites of the back being hit by light all the time before the actual exposure is being made...

-axel
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153296\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

But that wouldn't happen because the mirror is down.

If the focal plane shutter is fired for every shot as well as the leaf shutter, then you lose one of the advantages of the leaf shutter, which is much lower shutter vibration.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: godtfred on November 16, 2007, 09:03:17 am
Quote
But that wouldn't happen because the mirror is down.

If the focal plane shutter is fired for every shot as well as the leaf shutter, then you lose one of the advantages of the leaf shutter, which is much lower shutter vibration.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153301\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Agreed, but then why have the "help shutter" in the H and V series cameras?
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: thsinar on November 16, 2007, 09:42:13 am
Dear Leonardo,

I cannot refrain from jumping in here!

Sinar - some design of camera?! Do you actually know what Sinar has been making those last 60 years, since 1948? Actually designing all cameras sold under its name and all the related accessories, including assembling and adjusting it.

I guess your description of Sinar was just a mistake.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Sinar -- some design of camera / digital backs for at least 2 systems

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153226\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: JDG on November 16, 2007, 09:43:17 am
Quote
But that wouldn't happen because the mirror is down.

If the focal plane shutter is fired for every shot as well as the leaf shutter, then you lose one of the advantages of the leaf shutter, which is much lower shutter vibration.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153301\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Majority of "shutter" vibration actually comes from the mirror, which in a Hasselblad is quite violent.  The affect of two shutters would likely be minimal.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Graham Mitchell on November 16, 2007, 09:56:51 am
Quote
Majority of "shutter" vibration actually comes from the mirror, which in a Hasselblad is quite violent.  The affect of two shutters would likely be minimal.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153316\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

True, but the difference between a focal plane shutter and a leaf shutter in MLU mode is significant.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on November 16, 2007, 10:11:42 am
Thierry,

I made the chart just as an example of a possible way to compare all the players in the Digital MF and the new roles they are playing.

Is Sinar manufacturing the Hy6? Is Sinar designing and manufacturing all lenses that go in to that system? I know Sinar cameras, I used a 4x5 in the film era and couldn't  ask for anything better than that, but now things are different, and I don't say that Sinar will be a small player in the new era (practically medium format and large format have merged in to a larger-than-ff-35mm format that is very closely chased by the Mark 3's) but some companies will collaborate in the design of some systems, manufacture other components and market others.

So my very imperfect attempt to analysis was that, to see which is making what. So may be you can help me to do this ... or we move on to better discussion ideas.

By the way, is Sinar going to have digital backs for this new open system announced by Phase/Mamiya?



Quote
Dear Leonardo,

I cannot refrain from jumping in here!

Sinar - some design of camera?! Do you actually know what Sinar has been making those last 60 years, since 1948? Actually designing all cameras sold under its name and all the related accessories, including assembling and adjusting it.

I guess your description of Sinar was just a mistake.

Thanks and best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153315\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Graham Mitchell on November 16, 2007, 10:29:38 am
If I remember correctly from the Jenoptik press release, Sinar, Jenoptik and Leaf all had input into the design of the Hy6.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: thsinar on November 16, 2007, 10:37:08 am
No harm, I just wanted to correct: you might how quickly such posts become the truth for some.

Sinar did not design lenses: I did not say this, simply ALL cameras and accessories related to it. As for lenses, we do mount/assemble and adjust it.

Actually yes, and as said by Graham in his post above, Sinar had some words to say, as well as the other players, concerning the Sinar Hy6.

You must be kidding for the Mamiya/PO camera/system?! Let it come to the market first.

Best regards,
Thierry

Quote
Thierry,

I made the chart just as an example of a possible way to compare all the players in the Digital MF and the new roles they are playing.

Is Sinar manufacturing the Hy6? Is Sinar designing and manufacturing all lenses that go in to that system? I know Sinar cameras, I used a 4x5 in the film era and couldn't  ask for anything better than that, but now things are different, and I don't say that Sinar will be a small player in the new era (practically medium format and large format have merged in to a larger-than-ff-35mm format that is very closely chased by the Mark 3's) but some companies will collaborate in the design of some systems, manufacture other components and market others.

So my very imperfect attempt to analysis was that, to see which is making what. So may be you can help me to do this ... or we move on to better discussion ideas.

By the way, is Sinar going to have digital backs for this new open system announced by Phase/Mamiya?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153325\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: jing q on November 16, 2007, 12:29:15 pm
Quote
I assume the focal plane shutter would stay open for as long as a leaf shutter lens is attached, effectively eliminating it from the camera.

People are dreaming if they think the existing bodies will handle new leaf shutter lenses.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153242\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

uh yes the focal plane shutter will stay open but the leaf shutter would have shut already since it'll be at a higher speed than the focal plane shutter, and the mirror goes down.
I don't see how this is a problem when the inside of the camera is a dark chamber once the leaf shutter closes. They might have to make some adjustments to allow the focal plane shutter to open up earlier or to just open up when a leaf shutter lens is attached but it's no big deal...

If you have experience with the Nikon D70 in the past (which used a CCD chip I believe?Correct me if I'm wrong), you could sync up to 1/2000 of a second. So why can't the back be the one that determines the exposure?

If they could tweak the firmware to allow this on the AFDII that'll be great.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: John_Black on November 16, 2007, 01:02:43 pm
With a "live-view" arrangement in the forthcoming camera I can see how leaf lenses would work, but I doubts about the AFD II.  Mirror goes up before leaf lens does its business?  That's some serious precision timing, plus major black out times in the view finder.  The signal to the strobes needs to be carefully timed, so the leaf lens would need electronic feedback into the camera so tell the camera CPU to send the signal to flash socket.  On top of this, with mirror-up how does AF function?  I'm with Graham on this one, the new camera will probably have a nice execution, but I'm skeptical when it comes to the AFD II family.

I know I'm in the minority on this one, but I hope to see a ZD II camera w/ the 3" LCD screen, faster throughputs & image review and a Phase P25+ or P30+ sensor.  For how I shoot the integrated ZD camera is easier to travel with and manage.  I would also love to see some type multi-point AF focus system.  Even 5 points would be a huge improvement.  And who are these new European lenses?  Did Zeiss sign up, or maybe Leica?  Imagine if it turned out to be Zeiss - that's like the Contax 645AF re-invented assuming the lenses are auto-focus.  

I've been flip-flopping on whether to buy a MF set-up for the past 12 months, so at this point waiting another 6 months is no big deal.  I just hope 6 months doesn't turn into 9, then 12, then 18...
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: BJL on November 16, 2007, 02:49:32 pm
Mamiya has a few leaf shutter lenses already for its 645 bodies. There are no AF ones yet, but I would guess that the 645AF bodies already work with those manual focus leaf shutter lenses.

So there could easily enough be compatibility of new leaf shutter lenses in Mamiya 645AF mount with existing Mamiya 645 format bodies.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: jing q on November 16, 2007, 02:50:51 pm
Quote
With a "live-view" arrangement in the forthcoming camera I can see how leaf lenses would work, but I doubts about the AFD II.  Mirror goes up before leaf lens does its business?  That's some serious precision timing, plus major black out times in the view finder. 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153364\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

you mean like the RZ?
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Nick-T on November 16, 2007, 03:14:02 pm
Quote
if sinar and leaf now only make backs for the Hy6/afi, they might as well close down right now....this is IMO where hass went wrong....people want to have the option to choose a camera and a back....i don't think someone who really wants a leaf back can be forced to get the afi with it....either way..like michael says phase has 50-70% of the DB market..with hass coming in aggressively, where does that leave sinar and leaf? they have to give their customers options....which is great for everybody....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=152925\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You claim "This is where Hasselblad went wrong"

I think this is where Hasselblad went RIGHT, despite all the carping on this forum I believe Hasselblad's sales have never been better and I think they are close to overtaking Phase in sales volume.

Nick-T
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Anthony R on November 16, 2007, 03:17:00 pm
Quote
.......r and I think they are close to overtaking Phase in sales volume.

Nick-T
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153389\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

So untrue it hardly deserves a response, but oh well...
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: John_Black on November 16, 2007, 04:07:19 pm
Quote
you mean like the RZ?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153386\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

"Live View" like the new Canon's, Nikon's and some of medium format backs.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: hubell on November 16, 2007, 04:10:35 pm
Quote
So untrue it hardly deserves a response, but oh well...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153390\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

In a way, whether Nick is right or wrong is really beside the point. Those announcing with such conviction that Hasselblad has made a "mistake" in its approach with the H3D or "cut off its nose to spite its face" have no idea what they are talking about. Why? Because they have not seen Hasselblad's sales and profitability numbers and future projections for the H3D compared to where those numbers were in prior years and would likely be in future years without the H3D. Yes, they have alienated a part of their customer base, which is unfortunate, but what is the size of that group(who were not going to buy Hasselblad backs anyway even if you practically gave them away to them---completely closed minds) compared to what I believe is a far larger potential market of customers who prefer a fully integrated system. In short, the jury is out here and the future will tell us of the wisdom of Hasselblad's approach.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Mort54 on November 16, 2007, 05:07:09 pm
Quote
And who are these new European lenses?  Did Zeiss sign up, or maybe Leica? 
I'm not sure I read anywhere that these would be new European lenses. They could be existing lenses. From Michael's interview, there is supposed to be a Hassy V adapter. That gives Phase access to all the old Hassy V lenses, which are European and Leaf Shutter. I hope I'm wrong, but I wonder if all the talk of leaf shutters and European lenses in nothing more than what you get when you provide a Hassy V lens adapter - you get all those old (but good) Hassy lenses.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: jpjespersen on November 16, 2007, 05:25:17 pm
http://forum.phaseone.com/viewtopic.php?t=4449 (http://forum.phaseone.com/viewtopic.php?t=4449)
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on November 16, 2007, 05:35:55 pm
That is an interesting point wright there. How is the MF DB pie today? I think that when I got my Phase, about a year ago it was something like 75% Phase, and the dominant body was the Hasselblad...

Is this information Googleable?


Quote
So untrue it hardly deserves a response, but oh well...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153390\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: canmiya on November 16, 2007, 05:37:13 pm
Quote
I'm not sure I read anywhere that these would be new European lenses. They could be existing lenses. From Michael's interview, there is supposed to be a Hassy V adapter. That gives Phase access to all the old Hassy V lenses, which are European and Leaf Shutter. I hope I'm wrong, but I wonder if all the talk of leaf shutters and European lenses in nothing more than what you get when you provide a Hassy V lens adapter - you get all those old (but good) Hassy lenses.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=153412\")


from MR's telephone interview with phase one ceo:
"The new camera system will be based on the Mamiya lens mount and back mount. Previous lenses will be able to be fitted. A new line of AF lenses will be made available. Some will be made by Mamiya, some by other lens manufacturers, including some from Europe. There will be leaf shutter lenses available as well for high flash sync speeds.
the entire essay:
[a href=\"http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/hitched.shtml]http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/hitched.shtml[/url]
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Mort54 on November 16, 2007, 05:56:35 pm
Quote
from MR's telephone interview with phase one ceo:
"The new camera system will be based on the Mamiya lens mount and back mount. Previous lenses will be able to be fitted. A new line of AF lenses will be made available. Some will be made by Mamiya, some by other lens manufacturers, including some from Europe. There will be leaf shutter lenses available as well for high flash sync speeds.
OK, that does indicate new Euro lenses, assuming there wasn't any confusion during the interview. I guess we'll find out for sure in due time.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: pprdigital on November 16, 2007, 09:29:30 pm
Quote
You claim "This is where Hasselblad went wrong"

I think this is where Hasselblad went RIGHT, despite all the carping on this forum I believe Hasselblad's sales have never been better and I think they are close to overtaking Phase in sales volume.

Nick-T
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153389\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



Quote
So untrue it hardly deserves a response, but oh well...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153390\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

On the contrary, this is indeed true.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Morgan_Moore on November 17, 2007, 01:17:08 am
It is no suprise to me that blad have probably sprung into the lead

Phase got a great market share as the first decent untethered back

Recent confusion will have hit Phase

The actual position will be confirmed after the release of this camera surely

S
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: John_Black on November 17, 2007, 04:47:22 am
I'm all for Mamiya and Phase joining forces, however, if the partnership ends up raising prices on the Mamiya side and everything is priced the same as Hassy, Leaf, Sinar, etc., then I don't think this new partnership will change the market much.  With the ZD back Mamiya opened the door to a decent quality back at an affordable price.  I'd like to see Mamiya continue in this direction with better backs in the future (better LCD, better throughputs, etc.)  

If Phase lists a P25+ for $19k and Mamiya lists their ZD for $7k, then I see some potential issues.  Granted, Phase's list price isn't reality, but it's still much more than a ZD.  Since Mamiya will presumably get their back technology from Phase, then I think the days of $7k backs may be numbered...  Another big advantage has been Mamiya's relatively inexpensive lenses (at least on the used market).  If all their new lenses are going to follow in the recent trend of $3k & $4k, then their relative price advantage (compared to the Rollei, Schnieder & Hass HC) is gone too.

I'm not worried about the technical aspects of the partnership since both sides have good pedigree.  It's the pricing that will make or break it.  And if they price too high and Hassy keeps up with their aggressive pricing, then Hassy will end up being the winner.  A 21 MP 1Ds3 is a viable option too, along with a Nikon D3X (presumably).  And in another 3 years those will be 24-27 MP dSLRs, and that's getting really close to P30+ territory.  Mamiya opened the door with ZD, now it's up to Phase to put a nice bow on it and turn the market upside with a ZD II back for $6999.  Bundle that with the AFD II kit for $9999 - and then lets re-do the digital back pole in 12 months and see how those percentages shake out
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: mcfoto on November 17, 2007, 05:39:06 am
Hi
With this working partnership there will be shared HW & SW when you read the Mamiya USA press release. Now that should lead to the ZD being supported by Capture One? If they do release the ZDII why not keep the price the same. The camera has been built.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Anders_HK on November 17, 2007, 07:28:38 am
Quote
I'm all for Mamiya and Phase joining forces, however, if the partnership ends up raising prices on the Mamiya side and everything is priced the same as Hassy, Leaf, Sinar, etc., then I don't think this new partnership will change the market much.  With the ZD back Mamiya opened the door to a decent quality back at an affordable price.  I'd like to see Mamiya continue in this direction with better backs in the future (better LCD, better throughputs, etc.) 

If Phase lists a P25+ for $19k and Mamiya lists their ZD for $7k, then I see some potential issues.  Granted, Phase's list price isn't reality, but it's still much more than a ZD.  Since Mamiya will presumably get their back technology from Phase, then I think the days of $7k backs may be numbered...  Another big advantage has been Mamiya's relatively inexpensive lenses (at least on the used market).  If all their new lenses are going to follow in the recent trend of $3k & $4k, then their relative price advantage (compared to the Rollei, Schnieder & Hass HC) is gone too.

I'm not worried about the technical aspects of the partnership since both sides have good pedigree.  It's the pricing that will make or break it.  And if they price too high and Hassy keeps up with their aggressive pricing, then Hassy will end up being the winner.  A 21 MP 1Ds3 is a viable option too, along with a Nikon D3X (presumably).  And in another 3 years those will be 24-27 MP dSLRs, and that's getting really close to P30+ territory.  Mamiya opened the door with ZD, now it's up to Phase to put a nice bow on it and turn the market upside with a ZD II back for $6999.  Bundle that with the AFD II kit for $9999 - and then lets re-do the digital back pole in 12 months and see how those percentages shake out
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John,

Very very good words .

Regards
Anders
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Graham Mitchell on November 17, 2007, 08:57:50 am
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Mamiya opened the door with ZD, now it's up to Phase to put a nice bow on it and turn the market upside with a ZD II back for $6999.

The problem with this idea is that I believe the ZD was being sold off basically at cost price, to try and offload stock before the already outdated ZDs became unsellable dinosaurs. I don't think these prices are possible for a profitable business and the volumes we are talking here.

The big issue is the price of the sensor. I got a price from Kodak on a 22MP sensor a while ago and even in quantity the price was around $5K, iirc, so you can easily imagine that a ZD costs $6K+ to build.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: jonstewart on November 17, 2007, 11:15:57 am
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And in another 3 years those will be 24-27 MP dSLRs, and that's getting really close to P30+ territory.
 
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Agree with the rest, but really can't see this happening unless there is a very significant shift in materials technology.

Sure, you can have 24-27Mpixel from a ff 35mm sensor, but the necessary smaller photosite size is likely to have some impact on final image quality.

The other problem of course is the ability to make glass to deliver the resolution required. Canon's current marketing whizz of removing wasted space between photosites, while maintaining photosite size, with more sites on a ff sensor, just compounds the resolution issue for the glass, methinks.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Anders_HK on November 17, 2007, 11:51:03 am
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The problem with this idea is that I believe the ZD was being sold off basically at cost price, to try and offload stock before the already outdated ZDs became unsellable dinosaurs. I don't think these prices are possible for a profitable business and the volumes we are talking here.

The big issue is the price of the sensor. I got a price from Kodak on a 22MP sensor a while ago and even in quantity the price was around $5K, iirc, so you can easily imagine that a ZD costs $6K+ to build.
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Perhaps Dalsa is cheaper? For sure the price has attracted also people like me to digital medium format who else would not have considered it. Perhaps continued and upgraded affordable Mamiya digital backs can be beneficial to both Mamiya and Phase since it attracts customers and some may later upgrade to Phase.

Regards
Anders
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Anthony R on November 17, 2007, 01:16:12 pm
Please show me. I live and work in the hardly arguable photographic capital of the world. What doesn't live here, comes through here on a regular basis from the rest of this country, western Europe and beyond.

I see more Leaf and Phase than anything else. I would say that in the last year or so I have been seeing more Phase than in the past and would guesstimate that it is around 50/50 Phase - Leaf. No others in the professional market that I have seen, and I have seen a lot. One could even go to all the rental outfits in NY and see what they carry and/or query the prepress and retouching boutiques.

I do see a lot of H1s, H2s, etc.

If you have different information I would like to see it.



l
Quote
On the contrary, this is indeed true.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153438\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Wim van Velzen on November 17, 2007, 01:53:13 pm
I would guess than here in the Netherlands, Hasselblad are the best sold DBs. Lots of regional differences around the world, I suppose.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: pprdigital on November 17, 2007, 03:27:18 pm
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Please show me. I live and work in the hardly arguable photographic capital of the world. What doesn't live here, comes through here on a regular basis from the rest of this country, western Europe and beyond.

I see more Leaf and Phase than anything else. I would say that in the last year or so I have been seeing more Phase than in the past and would guesstimate that it is around 50/50 Phase - Leaf. No others in the professional market that I have seen, and I have seen a lot. One could even go to all the rental outfits in NY and see what they carry and/or query the prepress and retouching boutiques.

I do see a lot of H1s, H2s, etc.

If you have different information I would like to see it.
l
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153637\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

My information is not from looking around and seeing who is using what. My information is from sources who are familiar with the volume of sensor purchases from the two manufacturers that supply them.

We don't have to turn this into a he said she said thing. I'm not going to argue about who has what market share. I'm just stating that I am confident of the numbers and that 1) looking around one city, and 2) considering one market does not tell the most accurate story.

I don't have a problem if this claim goes un-believed, and it doesn't need to be debated. I can understand being in a major photographic market and not seeing much Hasselblad and coming to that conclusion. But if someone gets slammed because they are stating something I know to be true, I'll defend their claim.

Steve Hendrix
www.ppratlanta.com/digital.php
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: John_Black on November 17, 2007, 04:48:55 pm
Graham - How or why Mamiya came up with their $7k ZD doesn't really matter.  When it comes to marketing one thing is consistent regardless of the product, industry, customer, etc - once you've put a price out there, raising it, stepping back or reducing what is delivered always meets with fierce resistance.  The marketplace doesn't tolerate price increases very well.  Especially technology related segments.  You can try to raise price and justify it with value propositions, cloud the discussions by altering scope of work, and even more so with various incentives.  But the crux of all this, once that price point in out there - it's out there and rescinding is all but impossible.  

I'm not professional and no money comes from my photography - unfortunately it's a one way street.  There are professionals such as yourself who can justify different investments, but that's a smaller market.  We've read posts here were the number of medium of format bodies and backs sold are measured in the 1000's per year.  Canon, Nikon, et al measure their sales volume in the 10,000's and 100,000's.  If I were Phase & Mamiya, do I want scrape and claw to hang onto a diminishing market?  Or, do I want to open new markets?  The answer is obvious - new markets.  Expand the base.  We're already seeing this - Hassy is putting the refurb'd H3D-22 kits out there for $13k'ish; Mamiya got our attention with a $7k back.  The Hy6 is getting fanfare, but not from the guys like me with their 1Ds2.  A $20k or $30k kit that's will lose 1/2 its value in 2-3 years...   Not only does it cost a small fortune to get on aboard, but once you do, all you've bought is a rapidly depreciating asset which tends to need even more money in the future (ie lenses, etc).  Granted, a Mamiya ZD back depreciates too - but I'd rather have 50% depreciation on a $7k investment compared to $20k.

dSLRs are knocking at the 22 MP door.  The 22 MP back market is being eroded by $12-$13k refurb'd back/body combo's.  The days of the 22 MP as a high-end back are numbered.  I see a convergence of medium format and dSLRs at the 22 MP point.  For the 22 MP sensor makers all the development costs have long been written off.  The equipment is there to produce them and little ongoing development is needed to keep them current.  So what's left is the variable costs to produce the sensors & backs and associated channel costs and selling expenses.  So again, do you try to do business as usual and hang on to the existing market?  Or, repackage the hardware and go after new segments?  Phase should embrace the $7k ZD.  Make it better, make it more obtainable.  Where does that leave Hassy and the Hy6 guys?  They'll be chasing that shrinking market who can afford the more expensive equipment.  

I agree with the earlier poster who said pixel quality of the 1Ds3 and alike are diminishing.  More pixels crammed into the same space can only go so far.  Point well taken and I don't want to go there.  To me the Mamiya/Phase is a business development exercise.  In contrast the Hy6 group didn't come up with a cheaper solution appealing to a broader segment.  I think their strategy is even more niche oriented - at least the pricing is.  The Hy6 is pretty specialized camera with some pretty expensive bits.  Phase will still have it's P30+ and P45+ for the professionals and those willing to spend some extra money.  So they can duke it out with Hass, Sinar, Leaf, etc., in those segments.  For the most part in those areas it will be business as usual.

It's the 22 MP segment where Phase and Mamiya can really turn the medium format industry upside down.  The ZD camera (not the back) is the product that can challenge and steal money away from Canon and Nikon.  This goes back the pixel quality (larger photosites), Mamiya and Phase can push the glam button and tell us how medium format gives a distinctive look that a small, inferior negative (ie the Canon FF sensor) simply can't match, plus medium format is series pro gear (the perception) and not a little girly 1.6x dSLR.  If Mamiya and Phase can spin their products as cross overs, give Canon and Nikon a fight at the $8k-$10k, then they (Mamiya & Phase) can be a huge disruptor.  Can Hassy and Hy6 group even compete at the price point?  They may not even want to.  Meanwhile Phase can flood the market with $7k ZD II backs in the Contax, H2 and other mounts.  That puts even more downward price pressure on the other players.  And coup de gras - Phase and Leica partner with Leica and offer some dSLR products.  This is a tricky fit, but the goal would be to even further blur the line between going with Canon and Nikon.  If it works, you're strangling the competition above you in the high end markets, meanwhile you're attacking Canon and Nikon and laying the ground work to expand market share.  Maybe I had too much coffee today   The Leica bit is pretty far out there

So I think this all comes down to pricing and reaching new markets with more attractive price points that enthusiasts such as myself can handle.  Hobbyists and enthusiasts clearly out number the pro's, so they would be my target market.  Being one of those guys, I'm probably a bit biased
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on November 17, 2007, 06:32:39 pm
"Canon, Nikon, et al measure their sales volume in the 10,000's and 100,000's." the Canon/Nikon may be an average $2k and MF $15 to $20k?

The consumer market is getting flooded with 6 to 10 megapixel cameras. Is that going to affect the Canon Nikon market? no because 6 mp in a Coolpix is not the same as 6 mp in my S2. Same thing with the 22 MP of the Mk3. This are pixels produced by sensels half the size of my P 25, it would be like a car with half the displacement using an enormous turbo charger to catch up with the cars in the next formula, if the two have same performance then we are in the metaphysical world.

Medium format has, in practical terms, merged with Large Format. I don't see how this new "larger format" would disappear because of the Mk3. Also you cannot mount a Mk3 on a view camera (I mean, not mount it in a satisfying way, the mirror gets in the way of wide angular lenses etc).

Mamiya used to have an entire line of MF systems: The RB, RZ, the 7, the 6 a single lens reflex with interchangeable optics, the 645 PRO and the 645 AF. They will probably not go away just because  of Hasselblad. Now they have a solid working relation with a major back company, (Mamiya was acquired by a company that some describe as "the Google of Japan" that can provide the most needed software help --but with Phase I don't see much more need-)

To say that, in the past year, Mamiya was distracted is probably an understatement, the ZD camera/back experiment almost killed them. I don't know what happened to Phase, but Hasselblad has a very aggressive marketing operation going on, so that probably counts too.

Things will definitively get interesting in Q1-08. Major clash of H6y, H3 and the new camera -- I suggest for a nickname PHASE 2 System, or P2 -- so, we can only sit and wait ...
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Quentin on November 17, 2007, 06:59:29 pm
Can someone remind me what the next step is likely to be beyond (if that is the right word) the 39mp P45+ and similar?  Is there an even higher pixel count for MF on the immediate horizon?  I ask because there seems to be a sense that 22mp is fronteir where "35mm" sensor cameras and medium format meet, at least in terms of pixel count.  What happens if the MF baseline rises to 39 or more MP?  And if it does, what do Canon and Nikon do - try and keep up, or focus on the market the smaller format was intended for, before we went all wide eyed about "medium format quality" from 35mm format cameras.

Quentin
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: amsp on November 17, 2007, 07:31:55 pm
Honestly, how much more do we really need? I'm not even sure I need more than the 22MP in my P25. If anything I would rather see improved performance like higher/better ISO, dynamic range, etc, than more MP.

Quote
Can someone remind me what the next step is likely to be beyond (if that is the right word) the 39mp P45+ and similar?  Is there an even higher pixel count for MF on the immediate horizon?  I ask because there seems to be a sense that 22mp is fronteir where "35mm" sensor cameras and medium format meet, at least in terms of pixel count.  What happens if the MF baseline rises to 39 or more MP?  And if it does, what do Canon and Nikon do - try and keep up, or focus on the market the smaller format was intended for, before we went all wide eyed about "medium format quality" from 35mm format cameras.

Quentin
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Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: bradleygibson on November 17, 2007, 07:50:03 pm
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Honestly, how much more do we really need? I'm not even sure I need more than the 22MP in my P25. If anything I would rather see improved performance like higher/better ISO, dynamic range, etc, than more MP.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153694\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I'd be quite satisfied with a 56mm square sensor at 5 microns. (That's ~125Mp)

(Under $50K, please).

I know, I'll be waiting a while...
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: MarkWelsh on November 17, 2007, 07:59:33 pm
Much of the 'MF magic' was quietly being delivered by the Leica digital module some time ago. It's hard to avoid the conclusion that the wow-factor luring Canon 1 Series users towards MF backs with similar pixel counts has at least something to do with weaker/non-existent AA filters. If you set a DMR capture alongside a ZD capture and a 1Ds II capture, the Canon image immediately appears to lack the 3D quality delivered by the other two.

It's been interesting to see how a 'hot-rodded' 5D performs without the AA filter; I'd really like to see Canon offer some AA options on the Mark III. And I'd like to see a 16-22MP 36mm Leica-tuned chip thrown into the mix before sacrificing the convenience, speed, power and flexibility of the latest generation of 35mm DSLRs.

I'm fundamentally skeptical about the utility of 39MP cameras. A really nice 22MP image is sufficient for 95% of imaginable applications. Stitching and shifting whittle the remainder down to maybe 1% . . . I mean, how big does the print have to be before the extra 17MP makes a meaningful difference? 5ft? 10ft? Naturally, this fact won't stop cameras being sold, and lusted after, on the basis of pixel counts – even though most readers of this forum would prefer to see improvements in dynamic range, shooting speed, accurate AF, high ISO performance and even image stabilisation. Otherwise we'd all be shooting with G9s.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on November 17, 2007, 08:14:13 pm
I don't need an upgrade, or more of anything than the P25/afd that I have since I shoot artwork for galleries. I also maxed up my credit card to get the back, so I will be paying for some time to come.

On the other side, I think that when they invented the automobile someone said that we did not need to go faster than 50km/h or something like that? and that we would actually get sick if we went faster.

Computers are always are getting faster, memory cheaper, so I'm not opposed to have a 39mp upgrade in the future, after all, the standard for high end art reproduction used to be an 8x10 transparency.

The fact that most photographers would be happy with a 63MB file doesn't mean that others could not use a bit --or much -- more than that. Aplications like: table top, food, product, landscape, fashion, museums, and others come to mind. All the users of large format AND medium format.

We also want a place for our own where no Nikon or Canon could ever get to us, is that a bad thing to ask?
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: thsinar on November 17, 2007, 11:54:43 pm
You are right, Graham: have tried to explain this since ages, but nobody believed it.

Quote
The problem with this idea is that I believe the ZD was being sold off basically at cost price, to try and offload stock before the already outdated ZDs became unsellable dinosaurs. I don't think these prices are possible for a profitable business and the volumes we are talking here.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153560\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The costs are even higher than your figure.

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The big issue is the price of the sensor. I got a price from Kodak on a 22MP sensor a while ago and even in quantity the price was around $5K, iirc, so you can easily imagine that a ZD costs $6K+ to build.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153560\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Best regards,
Thierry
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Henry Goh on November 18, 2007, 01:38:35 am
As end users, if a manufacturer is willing to sell a new back at a loss, I don't see any problem buying into it.  Their commercial reason is not going to affect the back's performance so long as the product is properly made and comes with warranty.  After all, those other brands selling backs at much higher prices are not completely problem-free are they?  It is a question of choice and every time someone buys a product there is always an element of risk involved anyway.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Dustbak on November 18, 2007, 03:57:10 am
Not sure whether I need more than 39Mp. I don't at this moment. I like to have it because downsizing is one of the best(fastest) ways to mask post processing flaws (basically means you can get away with working sloppier/faster).

I would wish for:

Multishot in one shot. eg. Foveon-like sensors.
Better ISO performance & smaller increments in ISO (on some cameras I can only adjust aperture & shutterspeed in full stops)
Longer exposure times (I don't own Phase)
In-back free-size Raw crop.

Other than that, there are not that many things I can currently think of. Sure, you could wish for all sorts of things to make it come closer to the top-end DSLR's but I for one wish backs don't go there. For me working with MFDB's is different if I want the DSLR experience I take the DSLR with me.

I would definitely want a quad-core MBP with 16Gb of memory and 1Tb of storage. I like working on my MBP because I can take it with me instead of sitting in my cold studio behind the studio machine. Has anyone ever tried to make a pano from 39Mp files? My MBP with 3Gb, 2.2, etc. comes to a grinding halt if I stitch more than 6 images  
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Frank Doorhof on November 18, 2007, 04:49:11 am
It depends on a few things.

For ME 22MP-31MP is more than enough for commercial work.

HOWEVER.
Since MP's are going up you can do some fun stuff.
I love for example to make pictures on the street, with the 22MP back I can zoom in and see all kinds of small detail I missed while walking there, with the 5D the small details are to say the least a bit more foggy.

So for that I love more MP's.

What I find more important ?
More dynamic range (always a good thing).
Better higher ISO so I can leave the 5D at home on holiday.
Faster AF mode, the mode now is perfect for nailing focus but sometimes you need a bit more speed.

But because people seem to think in MP's only as you can see now on for example DPR where the 1DsIII is already called a MF killer because it has the same MP count  the guys from marketing will probarbly win from the engineers and they want more MP's...... I'm afraid.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Dustbak on November 18, 2007, 04:55:58 am
Yeah, I don't know why people are so into more MP's. My 16MP multishot back (in multishot mode) makes mince-meat from my CF39 IQ-wise.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: hubell on November 18, 2007, 02:07:54 pm
Quote
The problem with this idea is that I believe the ZD was being sold off basically at cost price, to try and offload stock before the already outdated ZDs became unsellable dinosaurs. I don't think these prices are possible for a profitable business and the volumes we are talking here.

The big issue is the price of the sensor. I got a price from Kodak on a 22MP sensor a while ago and even in quantity the price was around $5K, iirc, so you can easily imagine that a ZD costs $6K+ to build.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153560\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


The scope of this "joint venture" between Mamiya and Phase is quite complex to decipher from a business standpoint. Both companies have a mandate to produce a profit from their sales. If Phase is going to provide its know how for a ZDII, the price has to go up because there are two companies that need a profit from the product, not just Mamiya. Moreover, what incentive does Phase have to help Mamiya produce really first  class versions of the ZD and the ZD back at low price points, when such products would likeky cannibalize the higher margin products that Phase manufactures like the P series?
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Mort54 on November 18, 2007, 02:26:25 pm
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Has anyone ever tried to make a pano from 39Mp files? My MBP with 3Gb, 2.2, etc. comes to a grinding halt if I stitch more than 6 images.
I routinely stich up to four 39 MP files on a Mac Pro with 4 GB of RAM, and I've gone as high as five (tho that's pretty rare). It remains pretty snappy throughout the process. Laptops have considerably slower front side busses, and much slower hard drives, than the typical desktop machine however. Plus you're doing six images vs my four or five.

For the other poster who asked who needs more than 22 MP. All I can say is 39 isn't enough, at least not for landscapes :-)
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: vgogolak on November 18, 2007, 02:57:59 pm
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Yeah, I don't know why people are so into more MP's. My 16MP multishot back (in multishot mode) makes mince-meat from my CF39 IQ-wise.
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I can sort of belive that, but love to see an example
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: uaiomex on November 18, 2007, 03:07:08 pm
I just read somewhere that the human eye has around 120,000,000 different light receptors inside.
So maybe, a 120 megapixel sensor is all we need to match human vision.

Eduardo


Quote
I routinely stich up to four 39 MP files on a Mac Pro with 4 GB of RAM, and I've gone as high as five (tho that's pretty rare). It remains pretty snappy throughout the process. Laptops have considerably slower front side busses, and much slower hard drives, than the typical desktop machine however. Plus you're doing six images vs my four or five.

For the other poster who asked who needs more than 22 MP. All I can say is 39 isn't enough, at least not for landscapes :-)
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Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Dustbak on November 18, 2007, 03:28:54 pm
Quote
I can sort of belive that, but love to see an example
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It is late over here but I will try to setup a comparison between my 384 in 4shot against my Cf39 this week. I will take the same subject/camera/lens/etc to be able to really see who makes mince-meat out of who.

I'll post the results in a new thread. If I forget and you really do want to see this comparison feel free to PM & remind me.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: jpjespersen on November 18, 2007, 03:34:49 pm
Quote
Has anyone ever tried to make a pano from 39Mp files? My MBP with 3Gb, 2.2, etc. comes to a grinding halt if I stitch more than 6 images 
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=153776\")
This is a panorama with p45+ of about 4 shots overlapping.  The exposure was over 2 minutes for each shot.  Did it on my older G5 dual 2ghz with 4gb of ram.
[a href=\"http://jpjespersen.blogspot.com/2007/11/just-discovered-this-detail.html]http://jpjespersen.blogspot.com/2007/11/ju...his-detail.html[/url]
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Graham Mitchell on November 18, 2007, 05:00:34 pm
Quote
The scope of this "joint venture" between Mamiya and Phase is quite complex to decipher from a business standpoint. Both companies have a mandate to produce a profit from their sales. If Phase is going to provide its know how for a ZDII, the price has to go up because there are two companies that need a profit from the product, not just Mamiya. Moreover, what incentive does Phase have to help Mamiya produce really first  class versions of the ZD and the ZD back at low price points, when such products would likeky cannibalize the higher margin products that Phase manufactures like the P series?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=153889\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I agree. I have to assume that Mamiya has dropped out of the back business to concentrate on the cameras and lenses. Phase can help keep the platform alive in return for supplying the backs. The partnership could keep both alive, and there is probably a contract to that effect.

However, the ZD prices are totally unrealistic for the near future, imho. We already know the price of Phase backs.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: mcfoto on November 18, 2007, 06:11:37 pm
Hi
I have heard from the Mamiya/Phase agent here that the Capture One will support the ZD. This most likely will happen next year. I will have to purchase the C1 software when this happens. Very good news plus it will work with my Canon to. I still would like to see Phase working on a new ZDII with Mamiya, make it an entry level into MFD.
Thanks Denis
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Leonardo Barreto on November 18, 2007, 07:28:26 pm
I don't see why Mamiya should abandon the digital back, probably the opposite will happen. It seams that the problem with the first generation was with software and the company that purchased Mamiya is a software firm. Someone at Mamiya told me at last months fair in NY, that "they offered to do all the programing for them".

I think that Phase One was probably the partner in need here. They have no other platform ! you can't sell backs that attach to no camera, so Mamiya probably said: I will give you half a camera if you give me half a digital back.

This way the "Phase 2 645" camera is going to eat at the 645 AFD -- that will continue to be a Mamiya system -- and the ZD back will also eat at Phase One digital back share of the market.

The new generation of the ZD back may be more atractive than ever, and, remember that Japanese firms are known for long term developing strategies.

Only by being able to shoot with C1 (now C1 4) on the ZD makes it very interesting indeed.



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Hi
I have heard from the Mamiya/Phase agent here that the Capture One will support the ZD. This most likely will happen next year. I will have to purchase the C1 software when this happens. Very good news plus it will work with my Canon to. I still would like to see Phase working on a new ZDII with Mamiya, make it an entry level into MFD.
Thanks Denis
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Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: vjbelle on November 19, 2007, 08:32:40 am
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Has anyone ever tried to make a pano from 39Mp files? My MBP with 3Gb, 2.2, etc. comes to a grinding halt if I stitch more than 6 images 
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I have stitched 15 images (all shot with my p45) on my MBP SR 2.4 with 4Gb ram and it never missed a beat.  Granted it took a little while but all in all fairly fast.  I also switched out my hard drive for a new fast 7200 200GB Toshiba - there was a noticeable speed improvement.  

Victor
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Dustbak on November 19, 2007, 08:47:00 am
My MBP is an older version that is apparently somewhat slower, I do have a 100GB 7200RPM drive in it. (maybe I am too impatient as well). I see I mentioned 3Gb, it has 2Gb! Which is the max for this model I believe.

Ah... well my wife is in need for a new laptop so as soon as quadcore MBP's hit the market I will give my wife a present  
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: BJL on November 19, 2007, 03:06:48 pm
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The big issue is the price of the sensor. I got a price from Kodak on a 22MP sensor a while ago and even in quantity the price was around $5K, iirc, so you can easily imagine that a ZD costs $6K+ to build.
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I think you could be right. One story I remember was that Mamiya committed to purchasing a rather large number of sensors in order to get a good price: it might be then that with the 22MP sensors already payed for, Mamiya is now selling at a profit compared to the alternative throwing away the sensors, but at too low a price to be feasible when new sensors must be purchased for a newer model. Using your numbers, if Mamiya has already payed the $5000 sensor cost, they are $2000 better off making a product that costs an additional $6,000 to make beyond sensor cost and selling it for $8,000, but this would overall simply be reducing the loss from $5,000 per sensor if written off to $3,000 per sensor.
Title: mamiya and phase
Post by: Graham Mitchell on November 19, 2007, 06:08:10 pm
I dug up the email from a year ago. These are prices for the KAF-22000CE

50 pieces - $14,900 each
100 pieces - $12,425 each
500 pieces - $5,245 each
1000 pieces - $4,222 each