Hy6 vs H3D - Buyer's eval process

[godtfred]

sinar is the onliest which offer ( in the 54h ) 16 shot back. no competitor here... so no number 1. or 2.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99712\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I believe the current Hasselblad CF-22 offers 16 shot (as well as 4 and 1.) Or at least the specs say so on HB's webpage.

With 22 mpix on both the sinar and the hb, id say its a close tie, but with a screen and battery for untethered shooting, the hb takes a small lead...  

-axel

[med007]

Well I really got the Sinar Guys pissed at me !

My statements are based on experience working with files from different backs.

Please provide the files for us to examine. Just pick out matched files from which you made you strong opinions.

You want us to think that there is just a little difference between the backs and the difference comes down to raw converter and workflow.

This is simply not true – there is major difference between backs !

Of course all backs are different, as are all photographers and their esthetics, experience, judgement and technical needs to satisfy their clients!

What ruler do you expect Michael Reichman to take out of his pocket by which he might rank these various backs?

The only ruler he has is quite expert and based on decades of hard work and insight to his own needs! Micheal is always upfront about the products he writes about based on his own idiomatic requirements and purposes. That he is often ahead of the curve is true but does not provide some universal translation of his take on backs to everyone's needs. Michael does not hold himself out to be a National Bureau of Standards to be used in some argument by a troll.

Also MR needs no encouragent from you to test backs. There's no other publisher I know of who has written more on the backs available. His job, however, is to share with us his experience in choosing the cameras for his own work, not your work!

If you are so sure about your product, I would encourage you to give Michael an e75, and have him test it up against his P45 - but I guess you don’t dare after all !

That is downright rude. I am offended that you would berate someone who devotes his best efforts to sharing what he does know with people he does not necessarily know and may never actually meet.

If you are indeed a professional, then you must realize that etiquete has been left behind. I'm ony writing to make the record complete and allow you the gap in which to place an apology.

If you have valid data on the quality of files that were so convincing to precipitate your ranking of backs, then make them available. Otherwise, the argument you have put up collapses, no matter what camera MR tests.

Asher Kelman

Open Photography Forums

[thsinar]

If you are indeed a professional, then you must realize that etiquete has been left behind. I'm ony writing to make the record complete and allow you the gap in which to place an apology.

If you have valid data on the quality of files that were so convincing to precipitate your ranking of backs, then make them available. Otherwise, the argument you have put up collapses, no matter what camera MR tests.

Asher Kelman

Open Photography Forums
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99796\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks Asher, for this very well-said comment. I can only agree with your judgement, although I was not expecting as much as an apology for what has been said: some decent respect of the work and of the persons involved would already put everything in another light.

One has to respect persons as persons at the very first, to get respected in return. That's what life has thought me. And in this, all the people posting here have to be respected, no matter which camera or back brand they are using.

It further "scares" away from posting many others who don't want to get "slapped" this way: an example was this morning, when somebody (not a Sinar user) wrote to me directly, telling me that he was on the way to post and ask a question when he read this non-sense. So he wrote and asked me directly. This should not be the case: leave this forum what it is, a sharing place of knowledge and experience, no matter which gear or equipment your are using, and more importantly, respect of each other is asked.

Best to all,
Thierry

[godtfred]

In my opinion (ad I am not alone since it also reflects market share):
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99746\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think this is about to change...

For people like myself, who looked at phase/hass/leaf when purchasing, phase and possibly leaf looked like the sh** before, but now hasselblad has played catch up with both cutting edge technology and a strong marketing campaign (not so succsessful to people who already own MFDB systems, as we all know with the 48mm FF thing... but to first time buyers)

A dealer I use tells me he usually sold Phase systems at a high ratio to HB, but now big local customers and rental houses are coming in and ordering up to 5 H3D's in a go... something is certainly happening. And today a poster on this very forum says he went to a Diesel shoot, where there was a handful of people shooting with the H2D... (btw, a system that is discounted at many dealers, and with the small upgrade fee of 1000 euros, may be a viable way into a H3D system. I have'nt checked the figures though   )

Also with Phase not having a clear strategy as to deal with manufacturers who are closing their systems to outside back producers, it might cut into their market share for existing customers (?)

-axel

[godtfred]

+1

(And I think it is about time Sinar looked at raising your salary, because you are a real asset to them by being on this forum (and others?) Being clear and outspoken about certainties, and also sharing on things that are not so certain. Thumbs up    )

Dear Toby,

As a serious "tester" you are certainly not without knowing that any such comments and quality comparisons are useless and of no value. I can prove you the contrary any time, and the opposite of the contrary any time too! Let alone that by speaking one can prove anything, from any type and any brand of digital back.

Make use of the back the correct way and you will get files with astonishing quality, from Phase, Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar digital backs.

I am a Sinar employee, and as such cannot let this statement without reaction. But I can say also, that as a serious photographer with 28 years of experience with large format and film, then the jump and the experience with digital since the begin of the nineties, I won't even dare to say that my competitors are producing rubbish quality, simply because it would not be fair and true. I have great respect of any competitor, as much for the name as for the quality produced by all of us with MFDB.

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99747\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[Toby1014]

Thanks Asher, for this very well-said comment. I can only agree with your judgement, although I was not expecting as much as an apology for what has been said: some decent respect of the work and of the persons involved would already put everything in another light.

One has to respect persons as persons at the very first, to get respected in return. That's what life has thought me. And in this, all the people posting here have to be respected, no matter which camera or back brand they are using.

It further "scares" away from posting many others who don't want to get "slapped" this way: an example was this morning, when somebody (not a Sinar user) wrote to me directly, telling me that he was on the way to post and ask a question when he read this non-sense. So he wrote and asked me directly. This should not be the case: leave this forum what it is, a sharing place of knowledge and experience, no matter which gear or equipment your are using, and more importantly, respect of each other is asked.

Best to all,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99797\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Wow a lot of hostility here.

You should all have in mind that I first reacted to a 100% crop by Graham and his e22 back and pointed out the different artifacts (exactly the same artifacts as I encounter with e22 and e75).

Then there were all the excuses like working on a pc and bad raw developer.

I am making my statement that there is a larger difference between MFD backs than between MF camera systems and therefore you should chose your back before you chose a camera system.

And you should test different backs before buying.

Dear Thierry I am happy that you think that members and back owners on this forum are testing different backs in real life production – then after all my statement on image quality and market share should not be too far off.

You could easily prove me wrong (and I will eat my words) if you would let Michael test an e75 back up against LEAF, Hasselblad or Phase. If as you stated did all the test and you believe in your product this should be no problem. My guess is that it will never happened and I wonder why all these words and no action.

Regarding Mr. Griffith he surely deserves all the credit, and he will make amazing images with any camera back or film.

This thread was about Hy6 vs. H3D and I my opinion the backs on these cameras matters more than the lenses in front.

Toby

[rainer_v]

Wow a lot of hostility here.

You should all have in mind that I first reacted to a 100% crop by Graham and his e22 back and pointed out the different artifacts (exactly the same artifacts as I encounter with e22 and e75).

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99803\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

but you dont respect his answers.
i dont have any specific "sinar" artefacts with my e22 or with my e75.

again:
why you dont tell us who you are?

[thsinar]

Wow a lot of hostility here.

You should all have in mind that I first reacted to a 100% crop by Graham and his e22 back and pointed out the different artifacts (exactly the same artifacts as I encounter with e22 and e75).

Then there were all the excuses like working on a pc and bad raw developer.

I am making my statement that there is a larger difference between MFD backs than between MF camera systems and therefore you should chose your back before you chose a camera system.

And you should test different backs before buying.

Dear Thierry I am happy that you think that members and back owners on this forum are testing different backs in real life production – then after all my statement on image quality and market share should not be too far off.

You could easily prove me wrong (and I will eat my words) if you would let Michael test an e75 back up against LEAF, Hasselblad or Phase. If as you stated did all the test and you believe in your product this should be no problem. My guess is that it will never happened and I wonder why all these words and no action.

Regarding Mr. Griffith he surely deserves all the credit, and he will make amazing images with any camera back or film.

This thread was about Hy6 vs. H3D and I my opinion the backs on these cameras matters more than the lenses in front.

Toby
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99803\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Dear Toby,

you are persisting: we are all asking for your identity and credits or images, or webpage to give any kind of respect to your comments. And first of all we are asking for your respect.

What you say in this post is nothing more, nothing new, and you have said the same x-times already, with the same words in any of your other posts, since the begining. And you have got full answers to all your points, even before asking: Foto-Z had clearly explained at the begin of his first post not to look on quality like noise or artifacts. Why are you picking this out, if you don't have any particular agenda.

Yes again, photographers are testing backs before investing! As for market share: you might be right. Put it in another perspective and go and check which companies have made profits and which one have lost money, since the begin of the digital age. There are some official financial company reports available in "Scandinavia", year after year. Go and have a look and your comment of market share will get another light.

e75 tests: I have no "suggestion" to get from you and won't fall in this game. Our backs are at disposal for such tests (already said) and we have proven it in other occasions. We do not need your "advice" to do so and are ready to speak with anybody when contacted and asked. Your guess that it won't happen is provocative and an insult, nothing more.

Tread "Hy6 vs H3D": did you really read Ethan's first post? Certainly not, otherwise you would have noticed that it was not only question in it about a camera platform, but that it was about a system (camera + back)!

Dear Toby, in case you haven't noticed it yet: I won't let myself and a company get insulted this way. I have a reputation of speaking frankly and honestly, and I shall do the same here, no matter who or what you are, or which company your represent here.

Best regards,
Thierry

[Robin Casady]

Wow a lot of hostility here.

People here are asking you for some references to give credibility to your comments. You mostly ignore such requests and just repeat your claims. If you have spent time on forums you should understand why you are getting the responses you get. As people have pointed out, there is much about your posts that seem troll-like.

1. You claim great experience, yet refuse to back it up with examples of your work or other specific references.

2. You refuse to reveal your identity, and don't give any reason why.

3. You have only just recently joined this forum so no one here knows you well enough to evaluate your comments.

These characteristics would get you painted as a troll most forums.

No, there is no such thing as a good troll. On a fourm one must have credibility for one's value judgements to be useful. You have not done anything to build your credibility, yet your posts contain controversial value judgements (your ranking of various backs).

Until you make some effort to gain credibility, many here will just treat you as a troll with an ulterior motive. Credibility must be earned. You cannot expect it when you are, anonymous, and have no history of making useful posts here. To be taken seriously, people here have to know something about you. The only way to do that while being anonymous is to slowly build a history of helpful posts. Don't start out with non-substantiated value judgements.

You your specific claim of editing work from many photographers using many different MFDB's, without knowing who these photographers are and what their work is like, we can give this claim little credibility. It could be that the quality of work you see has more to do with the skills of the photographers, than it does with the hardware they use. We have no way of knowing, therefore can give little value to your claims.

Regards,
Robin Casady
http://www.robincasady.com

[Toby1014]

People here are asking you for some references to give credibility to your comments. You mostly ignore such requests and just repeat your claims. If you have spent time on forums you should understand why you are getting the responses you get. As people have pointed out, there is much about your posts that seem troll-like.

1. You claim great experience, yet refuse to back it up with examples of your work or other specific references.

2. You refuse to reveal your identity, and don't give any reason why.

3. You have only just recently joined this forum so no one here knows you well enough to evaluate your comments.

These characteristics would get you painted as a troll most forums.

No, there is no such thing as a good troll. On a fourm one must have credibility for one's value judgements to be useful. You have not done anything to build your credibility, yet your posts contain controversial value judgements (your ranking of various backs).

Until you make some effort to gain credibility, many here will just treat you as a troll with an ulterior motive. Credibility must be earned. You cannot expect it when you are, anonymous, and have no history of making useful posts here. To be taken seriously, people here have to know something about you. The only way to do that while being anonymous is to slowly build a history of helpful posts. Don't start out with non-substantiated value judgements.

You your specific claim of editing work from many photographers using many different MFDB's, without knowing who these photographers are and what their work is like, we can give this claim little credibility. It could be that the quality of work you see has more to do with the skills of the photographers, than it does with the hardware they use. We have no way of knowing, therefore can give little value to your claims.

Regards,
Robin Casady
http://www.robincasady.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99807\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ok I get it.

Since I can’t reveal my name or post any of my photographers images her on this forum, I will throw in the towel and delete my profile.

Consider me as a troll popping up from a box saying the stuff people don’t want to hear: There are major differences between backs, consensus on this site is that there is very little differences depending on the photographers skill. Do not believe this but see for your self.

I do hope that photographers reading this post go out and test different backs, and when they also experience the difference - think of me as a good troll.

I apologies to Thierry, my comments was never meant as a vendetta against Sinar, best of luck to you and to your company.

Toby

[thsinar]

I apologies to Thierry, my comments was never meant as a vendetta against Sinar, best of luck to you and to your company.

Toby
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99810\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Apolgies accepted: thanks Toby to understand than one cannot speak with this tone, nowhere and to nobody.

The best to you as well,
Thierry

[med007]

Ok I get it.

Since I can’t reveal my name or post any of my photographers images her on this forum, I will throw in the towel and delete my profile.

Consider me as a troll popping up from a box saying the stuff people don’t want to hear: There are major differences between backs, consensus on this site is that there is very little differences depending on the photographers skill. Do not believe this but see for your self.

I do hope that photographers reading this post go out and test different backs, and when they also experience the difference - think of me as a good troll.

I apologies to Thierry, my comments was never meant as a vendetta against Sinar, best of luck to you and to your company.

Toby
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I cannot fathom why one cannot use one's own name if what one is saying is the truth and one is not escaping from the Mafia, a stalker or the like.  Decent representatives of of honest companies give their true identity if requested.

I do understand not using anyone elses files. Still you did apologize and that is appreciated.
If you could get over the ranking of things, introduce yourself, then we can leave this matter and return to the backs themselves.

                                                         ******

It must be that lens-back-systems are important for some work. For sure with Canon DSLR's the 50mm 1.4 has birefringence issues with the CMOS semsor but works perfectly with film.

Leica wide angle lenses function fine on film but them the angle is to sharp for the Kodak CCD at the field edges.

Systems built from scratch take into account the factors which are otherwise fudged or have to be ignored.

Hasselblad has decided to build in to each camera the profiles for each lens at each aperture so as to correct system imperfections.

Ideally, this should not be necessary. Lenses and backs should be designed from the outset together. For the Hasselblad system, they admit their system has many flaws and correct them in software.

The Hy6 system likely will benefit from similar software post procesing based on lens-sensor characteristics, either from the consortium of Hy6 supporters or else from 3rd party after market software companies.

Ultimately "the total system" is what counts.

Asher Kelman

[a href=\"http://www.openphotographyforums.com]Open Photography forums[/url]

[yaya]

Strange,

Reading through this thread, it reminds me of a certain thread on the old RG forum, from about 11 months ago. That thread, along with a few others, eventually lead to the explosion and the fall of RG.

Anyone who was reading RG at that time, will remember that during Focus On Imaging 2006, I publically challenged the other 3 competitors to run a side-by-side test, with UK's photographers as the judges.
Like Thierry, I am employed by one of the manufacturers (Leaf) and have a strong loyalty to it (and of course an agenda).

So my agenda for this year's Focus (25-28 Feb, NEC Birmingham see http://www.focus-on-imaging.co.uk/) is to challenge everybody again! Anyone accepting it, be it a manufacturer, a dealer or an end user.
Let the public choose the camera platform/s, choose the subject and let's get on with it!!!

My bet is that just like last year, the silent will be deafening...but I'm willing to be surprised:-)

----------
One of the photographic magazines ran a side-by-side test recently, which will be published within a few weeks. 2 competitors have chickened out (their reasons/ excuses are their problem I guess) and from the 2 that were left, 1 won the test, mostly for handling and image quality.
This can mean everything or nothing as it surely doesn't cover everybody's needs or expectations.
----------
I encourage any photographer who is looking to buy into the MFDB world, to make any effort needed for testing all the solutions that are relevant for his/ her work, from handling, to image quality, to workflow, output quality in real print and to cost/ value.
Test them in YOUR environment, in YOUR conditions and if possible, side-by-side on your chosen platform/s.

Only then you'll be able to determine which one might be the best for you.
----------
I second everything that has been said about Tim Griffith, regardless of the kit used the man produces imagery that many other architechture photographers try to immitate, not to mention copying his website's design. Enough said.
----------

Best to all from snowy London

Yair

[span style=\'font-size:7pt;line-height:100%\']Yair Shahar | Regional Manager | Leaf EMEA |
mob: +44 77 8992 8199 | [email protected] | www.leaf-photography.com
Leaf, part of Kodak's Graphic Communications Group
[/span]

[robert zimmerman]

...There are major differences between backs, consensus on this site is that there is very little differences depending on the photographers skill. Do not believe this but see for your self.

I do hope that photographers reading this post go out and test different backs, and when they also experience the difference - think of me as a good troll...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99810\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think most people on this forum agree on this point, the backs are different and even more important, the software is very, very different. the results can be the same depending on your experience and controll of the software and in conjunction with post production - which all of the files from all of the db's need.

I would also argue that the most important factor in the choice of a digital system should be made on  what's in front of the camera and what's behind the camera, not what's in the middle. Lenses and file/software are really the crucial factors. The body is important, but I'd compromise there first. If making Leaf software 10x faster meant I had to use it on a Bronica, i'd seriously think about it.  

It's very nice that people share "raw" files from different backs, but there are so many variables, and so many different ways of working, I don't really see the point. If you don't try the different systems in your own shooting sinerio and work on your own files with the software, your asking for trouble.

As far as the decision between the Hy6 and the HD3 are concerned...again, an intelligent choice can only be made by using both systems and processing hundreds of files with both softwares -
anyone buying an early bird Hy6 on specs is nuts IMO.

[Ethan Schoonover]

Wow... what a thread/bar-fight/informative article/mosh-pit. Here's where I'm at now:

• Lining up appointments with the dealers (as was the case when the thread started)
• Putting the Leaf AFi on the short list with Sinar and H. Leaning more towards the Hy6/AFi over the H.
• Thinking back to the arguments that I grew up with in the midwest: chevy/ford
• Thinking that no matter what I chose, no matter my reasons, I'll upset 1/3 of the forum members, please 1/3 and the other 1/3 won't care either way...

Regarding the issue of anonymity/real-identity: there is an excellent article on A List Apart about this explaining why anonymity in forums can lead to very poor behavior. I'd say the de facto, community enforced policy of "real identity" on these forums is a very good thing.

Personally, no matter what gear each one of us uses, I value the input, experience and time that the you all share. I try to keep in mind that we're all sitting in this virtual studio together and will do my best to be straight talking yet polite, as I'd be if we were face to face.

[thsinar]

Strange,

Like Thierry, I am employed by one of the manufacturers (Leaf) and have a strong loyalty to it (and of course an agenda).

So my agenda for this year's Focus (25-28 Feb, NEC Birmingham see http://www.focus-on-imaging.co.uk/) is to challenge everybody again! Anyone accepting it, be it a manufacturer, a dealer or an end user.
Let the public choose the camera platform/s, choose the subject and let's get on with it!!!

My bet is that just like last year, the silent will be deafening...but I'm willing to be surprised:-)

Yair

[span style=\'font-size:7pt;line-height:100%\']Yair Shahar | Regional Manager | Leaf EMEA |
mob: +44 77 8992 8199 | [email protected] | www.leaf-photography.com
Leaf, part of Kodak's Graphic Communications Group
[/span]
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99815\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

hi Yair,

well, you shall be surprised! I am not silent and can say that we would accept your challenge under certain conditions of fairness, organisation and impartiality. However, it is not my decision and I shall forward this to the respective person.

I don't know if Sinar was one f the 2 having refused the side-by-side test last year, since I am not covering the UK, but let me tell you a little story I have experienced in HK/China: 2 years ago we have been invited by a back manufacturer the same way you do it now, to do a side-by-side test, with all the manufacturers, which I accepted in a first step. It was organized together with a famous local photo magazine which had the right to publish the results of this shootout. It turned out that we were explained that the testing would have to be run and made by the representative of one of the contender, the same contender who asked me to participate. So I and under my responsbility refused to participate at such a circus. And obviously, the tests results printed later and with the 2 other manufacturers of backs showed exactly what was the purpose of the whole game. Strangely enough, Sinar was placed in 4th position, not to say last! I will not disclose here the name of this back manufacturer, if asked.

So let me be a bit skeptical at first, concerning such tests: if all the conditions of impartiality and fairness are met, then I can have no objection to such: each manufacturer (or his local distributor) handles the shooting with its own back, on the absolutely same setup (camera, lens, f-stop, exp. time, lighting, subject, etc ...) and delivers the finished file at the end to a neutral panel of "judges" (your proposal to take the public is tempting). But before that, one should also know the criteria of quality which will be judged. It si a difficult task and If you can guaranty that, then nobody can say no.

You know, we have been also winner of such tests: but have the real conditions of impartiality and equal treatment been offered to all? I honestly don't know.

Why don't you take contact officially with Sinar or its representaive in the UK: I think they would be willing to at least speak about such a good idea.

If not possible in the UK, I am myself ready to organize the same side-by-side shooting in my region (Asia - Pacific) at any time: Australia for example? Would you support me the same way I am supporting your idea in the UK?: we have even the same distributor in this country, which would make things so much easier. Would be nice

Good luck and have a nice snowy day in London!
From the hot Bangkok,
Thierry

[Andrew W]

Ethan:

Congrats on getting your thread back. Wow, it was hijacked half way around the world.

BTW, good luck on your search. Sounds like you are making progress.

[yaya]

See this is why I'm trying to do it in a more spontaneous way: No magazines, no "panels".
Let the photographer/s handle the kit, with us reps/ dealers as advisors, giving basic guidance and making sure that it's being used properly and of course answering any questions as we go.
My idea is not to have it all written in an article with winners or loosers, simply because I doubt there is a writer/ reviewer that is capable of handling it.
(No magazine will ever have the bandwidth or willingness to do a thorough and comprehansive test, since there are many other "political" aspects involved. Trust me I've been trying to convince them for years).
It is more for allowing a neutral ground, in wich potential buyers (or anyone else) have a chance to lay their hands on the various backs and take the same pictures on the same platforms (of their choice).
At the end we can just burn DVDs with RAW files and free copies of all the different SW so photographers/ buyers can walk away with something to sit and peep away.

I'll be happy if someone from Sinar UK or CH contacts me to arrange it, same goes for Phase and Hasselblad of course.
I'll also check with my colleagues in AP about doing something in Australia

Thierry, whatever the outcome is, your company should be thankful to you for your contribution to this forum, as its members I'm sure are.

Yair

hi Yair,

well, you shall be surprised! I am not silent and can say that we would accept your challenge under certain conditions of fairness, organisation and impartiality. However, it is not my decision and I shall forward this to the respective person.

I don't know if Sinar was one f the 2 having refused the side-by-side test last year, since I am not covering the UK, but let me tell you a little story I have experienced in HK/China: 2 years ago we have been invited by a back manufacturer the same way you do it now, to do a side-by-side test, with all the manufacturers, which I accepted in a first step. It was organized together with a famous local photo magazine which had the right to publish the results of this shootout. It turned out that we were explained that the testing would have to be run and made by the representative of one of the contender, the same contender who asked me to participate. So I and under my responsbility refused to participate at such a circus. And obviously, the tests results printed later and with the 2 other manufacturers of backs showed exactly what was the purpose of the whole game. Strangely enough, Sinar was placed in 4th position, not to say last! I will not disclose here the name of this back manufacturer, if asked.

So let me be a bit skeptical at first, concerning such tests: if all the conditions of impartiality and fairness are met, then I can have no objection to such: each manufacturer (or his local distributor) handles the shooting with its own back, on the absolutely same setup (camera, lens, f-stop, exp. time, lighting, subject, etc ...) and delivers the finished file at the end to a neutral panel of "judges" (your proposal to take the public is tempting). But before that, one should also know the criteria of quality which will be judged. It si a difficult task and If you can guaranty that, then nobody can say no.

You know, we have been also winner of such tests: but have the real conditions of impartiality and equal treatment been offered to all? I honestly don't know.

Why don't you take contact officially with Sinar or its representaive in the UK: I think they would be willing to at least speak about such a good idea.

If not possible in the UK, I am myself ready to organize the same side-by-side shooting in my region (Asia - Pacific) at any time: Australia for example? Would you support me the same way I am supporting your idea in the UK?: we have even the same distributor in this country, which would make things so much easier. Would be nice

Good luck and have a nice snowy day in London!
From the hot Bangkok,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99818\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

[peterhorsley]

certain conditions of fairness, organisation and impartiality.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99818\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

And to be really useful to consumers make it more than a test of pixel peeping.

My suggested contest rules would be:
1. Use a live model wearing knitted and synthetic clothing
2. Same camera body, lens and aperture and tethered computer for all shots.
3. 3 minutes shooting tethered with studio flash.
4. 3 minutes shooting un-tethered with studio flash
5. 3 minutes shooting untethered with modeling lights only (high ISO test)
6. Deliver all images shot as finished (1000px long) jpgs and select 3 RAW and process to best quality 15mins after end of shoot as files and printed (16 x 20) proof sheet.

Scoring
1 point for each finished jpg.
2 points for each finished RAW.
-10 points for each camera/back stopage while shooting
-10 points for each computer stopage during shooting

Judge (an Art Director) to rate images (jpgs as a group, RAWs individually) out of 10 (each) for:
noise
tonality (skin, highlights, shadows etc)
colour fidelity
colour artifacts
resolution
moire (10=none 0=some)
overall 'look'

Add up ratings and multiply by total points for final score.

Video and post on LL.

Cheers

Peter

[thsinar]

And to be really useful to consumers make it more than a test of pixel peeping.

My suggested contest rules would be:
1. Use a live model wearing knitted and synthetic clothing
2. Same camera body, lens and aperture and tethered computer for all shots.
3. 3 minutes shooting tethered with studio flash.
4. 3 minutes shooting un-tethered with studio flash
5. 3 minutes shooting untethered with modeling lights only (high ISO test)
6. Deliver all images shot as finished (1000px long) jpgs and select 3 RAW and process to best quality 15mins after end of shoot as files and printed (16 x 20) proof sheet.

Scoring
1 point for each finished jpg.
2 points for each finished RAW.
-10 points for each camera/back stopage while shooting
-10 points for each computer stopage during shooting

Judge (an Art Director) to rate images (jpgs as a group, RAWs individually) out of 10 (each) for:
noise
tonality (skin, highlights, shadows etc)
colour fidelity
colour artifacts
resolution
moire (10=none 0=some)
overall 'look'

Add up ratings and multiply by total points for final score.

Video and post on LL.

Cheers

Peter
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99825\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Peter,

Thanks for your proposal.

sounds good and perfect, however, we have here already the first little problem:

You would then only test for a specific field and get a back winner for this specific task.

Much diffferent can be the test conditions and therefore the results if one shots sceneries; landscapes; architecure, or then stil life in Studio, or then Macros like jewelery, car photography, etc ...., when it needs shifts, tilts/swings....
Centerfold effects, color casts with shifts, high-light recovery in harsh light conditions, etc ... would not be covered and tested.

I don't want to be negative about such a test, but one has to take in account all issues in digital photography.

I would like the idea of a test involving all parameters and conditions, in all particular photographic fields, and then compare the different parts of this test.

Sounds difficult, but why not!

Let's see and think about it.

Thierry