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Author Topic: Hy6 vs H3D - Buyer's eval process  (Read 96735 times)

Graham Mitchell

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Hy6 vs H3D - Buyer's eval process
« Reply #40 on: February 07, 2007, 04:11:39 am »

Sam/Morgan, you want a view camera with movements AND you want to use it handheld? That doesn't make much sense to me.

Anyway, here's an image of the Rollei X-ACT.

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Morgan_Moore

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Hy6 vs H3D - Buyer's eval process
« Reply #41 on: February 07, 2007, 04:14:35 am »

Quote
The rumoured shift/tilt lens from blad could be a killer if they get the DAC function in FlexColor to function with it. Two main dealers I have spoken to confirm it as being around the corner, but Hasselblad is as always silent on future releases. This piece of glass could also be an ace up their sleeve, if they get it right that is....

-axel
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99611\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

If is is a 47 and work with the 1.7 converter it will be cover many bases interior and product
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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

Graham Mitchell

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Hy6 vs H3D - Buyer's eval process
« Reply #42 on: February 07, 2007, 04:15:44 am »

Quote
The rumoured shift/tilt lens from blad could be a killer if they get the DAC function in FlexColor to function with it. Two main dealers I have spoken to confirm it as being around the corner, but Hasselblad is as always silent on future releases. This piece of glass could also be an ace up their sleeve, if they get it right that is....

Sounds interesting, but there is already a T/S lens for the Rollei/Hy6

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Morgan_Moore

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Hy6 vs H3D - Buyer's eval process
« Reply #43 on: February 07, 2007, 04:23:15 am »

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Sam/Morgan, you want a view camera with movements AND you want to use it handheld? That doesn't make much sense to me.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99612\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Why not.

I understand tilt is hard to do off a tripod

But I use my 28 pc with my SLRn no worries

People use 24s and 80s on their SLRs all the time

Once you get into using a bit of rise it feels so restrictuve without it - even for portraits

Fixed lense photography is only half of the game IMO

The HY6 could have had a 'killer' 15mm of rise/fall with all existing lenses

I also want mega wide and I dont think the HY6 can progress in that diection

Have to do some work now ...

p.s what is that lens has it been mentioned before is it still made serviced available?

SMM
« Last Edit: February 07, 2007, 04:27:41 am by Morgan_Moore »
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Sam Morgan Moore Bristol UK

thsinar

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Hy6 vs H3D - Buyer's eval process
« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2007, 06:18:14 am »

To all making this tread so interesting,

My godness! This is a lot of work ahead for us, to get everybody satisfied, but what a fantastic task for all of us at Sinar.

Be sure that our R&D team is more than often holding cameras with their own hands and running shootings by their own, to get the "feeling" of a photographer. We use to run  even LF Worshops for our new employees joining the company, to give them a sense of this particular field of photography.

Be sure also that all your comments/wishes and even dreams are duly forwarded to the right persons.

The question thereafter is the technical feasibility (often feasible) and the commercial feasibility. For the last point one has to consider many factors: human ressources, other projects running, timeframe, costs and last but not least, returns and possibilities to sell it to cover all the costs at the very least, and the necessary marketing involved to get a chance.

Here and as an example, a project like developping a new camera with movements, based on older models, costs alone a few 1000 hours manpower and some 1 million Euros +++. I do not speak about the costs of a MF camera which should have it all, satisfying any need of everybody.

As said your wishes have been forwarded. In french we are used to say "Qui vivra verra!"

All the best to all,
Thierry
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Thierry Hagenauer
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Graham Mitchell

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Hy6 vs H3D - Buyer's eval process
« Reply #45 on: February 07, 2007, 08:43:49 am »

I really love these Rollei lenses. Here's my first test of the 1.4x teleconverter on the 180mm f2.8 lens, at f2.8, taken today in -10'C. By the way, I am using a terrible RAW converter to see my pics quickly without a Mac, so don't judge noise and colour.

quick test shot:
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hubell

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« Reply #46 on: February 07, 2007, 09:03:59 am »

Quote
&
hi Billy, hi hcubell,

About the new AFD lenses which will be available for the Hy6: it will be possible to buy (order) them when available. Certain types, like the digital version of the existing ones certainly first, then the 35mm and the Macro 120mm. There is no time table for the last 2 models.

Thanks to all,
Thierry
Sinar AG Switzerland
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99528\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Your earlier post said that the new 35mm and 120 macro lenses would be available in September(2007, I assumed). Is there no actual promised delivery date?

thsinar

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Hy6 vs H3D - Buyer's eval process
« Reply #47 on: February 07, 2007, 09:09:45 am »

Quote
Your earlier post said that the new 35mm and 120 macro lenses would be available in September(2007, I assumed). Is there no actual promised delivery date?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99637\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

hi,

sorry if I have explained myself the wrong way: 2.8/80; 2.8/50; 4/150; 2.8/180 & 4.6/60-140 AFD's are planed for September '07, the 35mm to follow, and then the 120 Macro. I have no other or more precise timing for the time being.

Best regards,
Thierry
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Thierry Hagenauer
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Toby1014

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« Reply #48 on: February 07, 2007, 11:33:45 am »

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I really love these Rollei lenses. Here's my first test of the 1.4x teleconverter on the 180mm f2.8 lens, at f2.8, taken today in -10'C. By the way, I am using a terrible RAW converter to see my pics quickly without a Mac, so don't judge noise and colour.

100% crop:

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99635\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Very Interesting 100% crop Graham, I have a few questions for you:

Tell me what are all these small white spots ?

Are highlights are blown in the white sweater ?

In the top right side of the image I see a strange pattern in the blacks ?

Is this color moiré on the bottom right ?

I hope this is your RAW converter and not the Sinar eMotion back  
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ynp

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Hy6 vs H3D - Buyer's eval process
« Reply #49 on: February 07, 2007, 12:31:35 pm »

Quote
To all making this tread so interesting,

My godness! This is a lot of work ahead for us, to get everybody satisfied, but what a fantastic task for all of us at Sinar.

All the best to all,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99617\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thierry,

As we all know Sinar and Rollei have formed an alliance. Can we hope that we will be able to use Rollei MF lenses on a P3 ? I am hearing that X-Act 2 was discontinued and an adaptation of Rollei lens adapter and a (new) lens control may be logical. I understand that CMV lenses are better then my 6008 glass, just wanted to utilize my lens collection and save some money .
Thanks,
Yevgeny
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #50 on: February 07, 2007, 12:44:07 pm »

Quote
Very Interesting 100% crop Graham, I have a few questions for you:

Tell me what are all these small white spots ?

Are highlights are blown in the white sweater ?

In the top right side of the image I see a strange pattern in the blacks ?

Is this color moiré on the bottom right ?

I hope this is your RAW converter and not the Sinar eMotion back   
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99656\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Toby, I prefaced that post with the following comment: "I am using a terrible RAW converter to see my pics quickly without a Mac, so don't judge noise and colour."

I don't know how to make it more clear. I am using a 'hack' to quickly process my files on my PC. It does a terrible job compared to Capture Shop on a Mac. For one thing it reduces the image to something like 6-bit from 16-bit! I just use it to preview files at full res, and then process them properly when I get access to a Mac. I am working on getting a Mac of my own.

Btw, those white spots are highlights on tiny drops of water.

These files are clearly no indication of the Sinarback quality. When I have time I will post the difference and you will sigh with relief
« Last Edit: February 07, 2007, 12:47:05 pm by foto-z »
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rainer_v

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« Reply #51 on: February 07, 2007, 01:13:18 pm »

what raw converter you use? can he read the files on a pc from the back?
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rainer viertlböck
architecture photograp

Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #52 on: February 07, 2007, 01:20:07 pm »

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what raw converter you use? can he read the files on a pc from the back?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99679\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

On the PC, I use DCRaw. It is command line based, so I use a GUI called RawDrop as the user interface. It's all free to download but I can't recommend it for the eMotion backs. There seems to be some problems with the implementation.
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Toby1014

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« Reply #53 on: February 07, 2007, 03:40:12 pm »

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On the PC, I use DCRaw. It is command line based, so I use a GUI called RawDrop as the user interface. It's all free to download but I can't recommend it for the eMotion backs. There seems to be some problems with the implementation.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99682\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Hi Graham

As a photo editor I am use to dealing with files from a lot of different MFD backs

What I see in your 100% file crop and pointed out is quite common seen on e22 and e75 Sinar backs. So I wish you the best of luck with other RAW development options.

In my opinion

Leaf and Phase rocks
Hasselblad so so
Sinar comes in as no. 4

And to Ethan – you should first try out different backs and decide witch one you like, then choose a camera system, not the other way around.

You will be surprised how different the 4 brands of backs perform.

In my opinion a Leaf or Phase back on a Hasselblad / Mamiya / Contax system will easily outperform a Sinar back on a Hy6 even with Schneider lenses…..

Good luck with your choice – but very important TEST for you self before buying.

Toby
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rainer_v

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« Reply #54 on: February 07, 2007, 04:12:45 pm »

Quote
Hi Graham

As a photo editor I am use to dealing with files from a lot of different MFD backs

What I see in your 100% file crop and pointed out is quite common seen on e22 and e75 Sinar backs. So I wish you the best of luck with other RAW development options.

In my opinion

Leaf and Phase rocks
Hasselblad so so
Sinar comes in as no. 4



And to Ethan – you should first try out different backs and decide witch one you like, then choose a camera system, not the other way around.

You will be surprised how different the 4 brands of backs perform.

In my opinion a Leaf or Phase back on a Hasselblad / Mamiya / Contax system will easily outperform a Sinar back on a Hy6 even with Schneider lenses…..

Good luck with your choice – but very important TEST for you self before buying.

Toby
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99701\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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rainer viertlböck
architecture photograp

Carl Glover

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Hy6 vs H3D - Buyer's eval process
« Reply #55 on: February 07, 2007, 04:19:55 pm »

Toby1014 is right. It's good to test before buying.

That's why I now have 3 Rollei 6008 bodies, 9 Rollei lenses and an eMotion 22.

For me, better than the others.

They produce very nice images for LP covers by the way...


Carl

rainer_v

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« Reply #56 on: February 07, 2007, 04:25:36 pm »

Quote
Hi Graham

As a photo editor I am use to dealing with files from a lot of different MFD backs

What I see in your 100% file crop and pointed out is quite common seen on e22 and e75 Sinar backs. So I wish you the best of luck with other RAW development options.

In my opinion

Leaf and Phase rocks
Hasselblad so so
Sinar comes in as no. 4

And to Ethan – you should first try out different backs and decide witch one you like, then choose a camera system, not the other way around.

You will be surprised how different the 4 brands of backs perform.

In my opinion a Leaf or Phase back on a Hasselblad / Mamiya / Contax system will easily outperform a Sinar back on a Hy6 even with Schneider lenses…..

Good luck with your choice – but very important TEST for you self before buying.

Toby
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99701\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

my comparisions showd more the opposite........


i.m.o. there is no general rule and you simply cant make a hundred meter race between the different backs cause there is no winner or looser......

at first phase and imacon backs deliver a closed match for sharing the same sensors ( maybee different with the announced new phase chips...). for many purposes ( a.e. fashion work ) they are great backs. which of them you might prefer will come down very much to the software and how good you know to use it, sure not for Resolution differences.....
no problems with long exposures with the kodak sensor,- the dalsa is hardly exceeding 30 - 50 seconds exp. time.


for architecture or any shift or scheimpflug camera  i would prefer leaf or sinar with dalsa sensors,- although the differece in some way s reduced cause the 33 dalsa chip is not longer so forgiving for different light entrys with shifted lenses. but the shifts are still much milder than the kodak chips are showing.
here sinar would be my 1. choice, simply cause leaf hasnt found a real solution of some drawbacks with the 33mp sensor.
resolutionwise leaf and sinar will be very very close, so in terms of noise for using the same sensors. big difference is the workflow and how "mature" the actual chips of them are.

that you would say a phase back would outresolve a sinar back " even with schneider lenses " i would put in the category unqualified comment. cant say anything other about statements as that.


there remains a third category:
multishot backs. here are imacon and sinar the onliest who offer that. both will be great in 4 shot mode. sinar is the onliest which offer ( in the 54h ) 16 shot back. no competitor here... so no number 1. or 2.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2007, 04:26:52 pm by rehnniar »
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rainer viertlböck
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Toby1014

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« Reply #57 on: February 07, 2007, 04:59:11 pm »

Quote
my comparisions showd more the opposite........
i.m.o. there is no general rule and you simply cant make a hundred meter race between the different backs cause there is no winner or looser......

at first phase and imacon backs deliver a closed match for sharing the same sensors ( maybee different with the announced new phase chips...). for many purposes ( a.e. fashion work ) they are great backs. which of them you might prefer will come down very much to the software and how good you know to use it, sure not for Resolution differences.....
no problems with long exposures with the kodak sensor,- the dalsa is hardly exceeding 30 - 50 seconds exp. time.
for architecture or any shift or scheimpflug camera  i would prefer leaf or sinar with dalsa sensors,- although the differece in some way s reduced cause the 33 dalsa chip is not longer so forgiving for different light entrys with shifted lenses. but the shifts are still much milder than the kodak chips are showing.
here sinar would be my 1. choice, simply cause leaf hasnt found a real solution of some drawbacks with the 33mp sensor.
resolutionwise leaf and sinar will be very very close, so in terms of noise for using the same sensors. big difference is the workflow and how "mature" the actual chips of them are.

that you would say a phase back would outresolve a sinar back " even with schneider lenses " i would put in the category unqualified comment. cant say anything other about statements as that.
there remains a third category:
multishot backs. here are imacon and sinar the onliest who offer that. both will be great in 4 shot mode. sinar is the onliest which offer ( in the 54h ) 16 shot back. no competitor here... so no number 1. or 2.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Well Rainer I will have to disagree here.

There seem to be a common mistake on this forum, that all backs deliver more or less the same quality files (when you get to know the software well) and that the real different is the Camera and lenses used. (And in workflow).

I strongly recommend all photographers who want to get into MFD photography to test and try out different backs and decide for your self.

You will be surprised by the difference in file quality between a Hasselblad 39 back and a Phase P45 back (same sensor) on a side by side shoot with the same camera and lens. This is also the case between Leaf A75 and Sinar e75.

The difference in my opinion is much larger than the difference in lens quality from Schneider glass to Hasselblad/Fuji to Contax to Mamyia glass.

Regarding Architectural photography – [a href=\"http://www.timgriffith.com/]Here[/url] is a award winning photographer who is shooting with Phase One back

My two cents: Get the back you want first then go for a camera system.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2007, 05:02:12 pm by Toby1014 »
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rainer_v

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« Reply #58 on: February 07, 2007, 05:15:59 pm »

Quote
Regarding Architectural photography – Here is a award winning photographer who is shooting with Phase One back

My two cents: Get the back you want first then go for a camera system.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99714\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

i agree in testing the backs, i disagree in the file quality order you make. so my 1:1 comparisons i have done show the opposite than yours in case of sinar and leaf, i usually dont do other things than architecture and with the last 22mp generation of backs the miss of color shifts has been my 1. reason to go for the dalsa sensor, after that i thought if go with leaf or with sinar,-  i have collected much experience with kodak sensorsbefore ( which have not changed their design in this aspect ) to know what it means a.e. to stitch images which are corrected with inverted files as the lcc workflow provides.

ofcourse tim griffith is a very good photographer and i like his work, but what the hell you want to say with your statement?.....
about awards: i dont have won any award ,- at first because i never have sent in any work to any photo price or competition ( i am not saying that i would have won if i would have participated, i dont have any idea about )..... but i have to tell you also that i shoot with sinar backs and i do huge projects for several very famous clients....  projects i have shot have won many awards and prices in every of the last years, my clients have been used herefor the photos i have made,- with 4x5", canons 1ds and kodak slr cameras, with roundshot film cameras, and with 22+33mp backs ( from sinar ).
further you can be sure that tim griffith would win his awards also if he would use sinar backs, or imacon or leaf backs or 4x5" film ( or whatever ).....
its usually the photographer who makes great photos,- not his back.

i disagree also about the lenses:
a well corrected (nearly ) symmetric lense as the sinar/ rodenstock 35HR is for my work an absolute other thing than a bad corrected unsymmetric wideangle than a.e.  the mamiya 35mm which gets unsharp 20mm away from the center if not stopped down very much and shows 2 or 3% of moustache form distortion, aside from clear visible green-magenta CA at the edges. i would prefere by far to work with the rodenstock lense with ANY 17mp chip ( although the chips have been  too little- so i would have to use a 28HR or 24xl,- but i just want to give an example ) than to use ANY of the 30,33 or 39mp backs together with the bad lense.
but again: whats for me a bad lense ( distortion,- unsharp edges ) might be for other purposes absolute ok, whats a good lense for my work ( symmetric lenses , probably with a copal shutter .... ) will be simply unusuable for fashion shots, independent which back you put behind the lense.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2007, 05:53:03 pm by rehnniar »
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rainer viertlböck
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Carl Glover

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« Reply #59 on: February 07, 2007, 05:17:03 pm »

I agree Toby. That's why I've got a Sinar.
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