Topic: Hy6 vs H3D - Buyer's eval process (Read 99259 times)

rainer_v · « **Reply #60 on:** February 07, 2007, 05:35:21 pm »

but toby, i just saw that you have made 4 posts at all here in LL, and you dont use your real name.
i would be interested who YOU are,- tim i already know.
you have a webpage? or a real-life name?
if so.... maybe you could introduce yourself a little bit and show some of YOUR work or of YOUR reputations, what you think about that?

Toby1014 · « **Reply #61 on:** February 07, 2007, 05:53:46 pm »

Quote

i agree in testing the backs, i disagree in the file quality order you make. so my 1:1 comparisons i have done show the opposite than yours in case of sinar and leaf, i usually dont do other things than architecture and with the last 22mp generation of backs the miss of color shifts has been my 1. reason to go for the dalsa sensor, after that i thought if go with leaf or with sinar,- i have collected much experience with kodak sensorsbefore ( which have not changed their design in this aspect ) to know what it means a.e. to stitch images which are corrected with inverted files as the lcc workflow provides.

ofcourse tim griffith is a very good photographer and i like his work, but what the hell you want to say with your statement?.....
about awards: i dont have won any award ,- at first because i never have sent in any work to any photo price or competition ( i am not saying that i would have won if i would have participated, i dont have any idea about )..... but i have to tell you also that i shoot with sinar backs and i do huge projects for several very famous clients.... projects i have shot have won many awards and prices in every of the last years, my clients have been used herefor the photos i have made,- with 4x5", canons 1ds and kodak slr cameras, with roundshot film cameras, and with 22+33mp backs ( from sinar ).
further you can be sure that tim griffith would win his awards also if he would use sinar backs, or imacon or leaf backs or 4x5" film ( or whatever ).....
its usually the photographer who makes great photos,- not his back.

i disagree also about the lenses:
a well corrected (nearly ) symmetric lense as the sinar/ rodenstock 35HR is for my work an absolute other thing than a bad corrected unsymmetric wideangle than a.e. the mamiya 35mm which gets unsharp 20mm away from the center if not stopped down very much and shows 2 or 3% of moustache form distortion, aside from clear visible green-magenta CA at the edges. i would prefere by far to work with that lense with ANY 17mp chip ( although they are to little,- but just to give you an example ) than to use ANY of the 30,33 or 39mp backs together with a bad lense.
but again: whats for me a bad lense ( distortion,- unsharp edges ) might be for other purposes absolute ok, whats a good lense for my work ( symmetric lenses , probably with a copal shutter .... ) will be simply unusuable for fashion shots, independent which back you put behind the lense.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99719\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Rainer, I can see you are a very skilled architectural photographer – but you were the one mentioning the Sinar-Dalsa solution for architectural work. My Statement with Mr. Tim Griffith is that other good architectural photographers chose Phase-Kodak and makes wonderful work.

I really don’t rally for one specific back brand (as you do) but just state that it is a common mistake on this forum to think that there is little difference in image quality between backs.

If all backs performed more or less the same, then why does Hasselblad not have a higher marked share with their very good H3D and 28mm option ? I think there are more Phase and Leaf back on Hasselblad cameras than Hasselblad backs !

To all photographers: As photo editor I do see a lot of (RAW) files from different backs – and I can tell you that there is a bigger difference in image quality than you would imagine. (As a reference point for 35mm users: I think there is very little difference between Nikon D2X and Canon 5D)

Go and test for your self, don’t believe my ranking or Rainers comments but see for your self.

Carl, I am happy that you are in love with your e22, no time for you to be unfaithful with other backs yet.

Carl Glover · « **Reply #62 on:** February 07, 2007, 06:03:54 pm »

Quote

Carl, I am happy that you are in love with your e22, no time for you to be unfaithful with other backs yet.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99727\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

But I am unfaithful. I got rid of a Phase/Hasselblad combination.

Graham Mitchell · « **Reply #63 on:** February 07, 2007, 06:06:44 pm »

Quote

but toby, i just saw that you have made 4 posts at all here in LL, and you dont use your real name.
i would be interested who YOU are,- tim i already know.
you have a webpage? or a real-life name?
if so.... maybe you could introduce yourself a little bit and show some of YOUR work or of YOUR reputations, what you think about that?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I wouldn't hold your breathe. Seems like a classic '[a href=\"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll]Internet Troll[/url]' to me.

rainer_v · « **Reply #64 on:** February 07, 2007, 06:07:03 pm »

Quote

Rainer, I can see you are a very skilled architectural photographer – but you were the one mentioning the Sinar-Dalsa solution for architectural work. My Statement with Mr. Tim Griffith is that other good architectural photographers chose Phase-Kodak and makes wonderful work.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99727\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

ofcourse there are differences between the backs, i never said the opposite.
i think the differences even are big,- esp. in terms of workflow, drawbacks and system integration.

not so big in terms of final image quality in skilled hands,- but the workflow to reach the final image might be very different and very time consumptive in one case or much more easy in another. this counts a lot if you work professional.

but as i said before,- a skilled photographer will deliver great results with any of the existing backs. and i tell you that the file quality in my shots will not vary visible if i use different backs for my photos, at least not in a way that this would become visible for any editor ,- if i dont tell him how i made the shots.

Toby1014 · « **Reply #65 on:** February 07, 2007, 06:24:11 pm »

Quote

I wouldn't hold your breathe. Seems like a classic 'Internet Troll' to me.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99735\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Running low on arguments Graham, doesn’t seem like you when you are promoting the Hy6 and e22.

I guess you ran your image through Sinar Capture Shop and still got the same result.

BTW there are good and bad trolls – I am a good one trying to help new MFD photographers to make their own test and decide for them self, not promoting a special brand of back. Witch kind of troll are you ?

Toby1014 · « **Reply #66 on:** February 07, 2007, 06:39:22 pm »

Quote

But I am unfaithful. I got rid of a Phase/Hasselblad combination.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99732\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

You know - love can make you do crazy things

Enjoy

rainer_v · « **Reply #67 on:** February 07, 2007, 06:45:18 pm »

Quote

Running low on arguments Graham, doesn’t seem like you when you are promoting the Hy6 and e22.

I guess you ran your image through Sinar Capture Shop and still got the same result.

BTW there are good and bad trolls – I am a good one trying to help new MFD photographers to make their own test and decide for them self, not promoting a special brand of back. Witch kind of troll are you ?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99738\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

didnt you started your ( first post in LL?) comments telling that there is a clear winner ( phase ) amd a clear looser ( sinar ) in terms of image quality?

i already have asked you for your name, or website, or anything which could give little bit transparency to your person and of your skills, as most people are giving here.
its not very usefull to use namedropping here for replacing your own name.
than telling how "good" and how neutral you share your great experience.
and telling really strange PR-bs about lenses and backs.

i share my experience too ( as you state that you do it ), but i dont do it anonymous and i think i really know what about i speak from my own experience. do you?

thsinar · « **Reply #68 on:** February 07, 2007, 07:03:27 pm »

Quote

Thierry,

As we all know Sinar and Rollei have formed an alliance. Can we hope that we will be able to use Rollei MF lenses on a P3 ? I am hearing that X-Act 2 was discontinued and an adaptation of Rollei lens adapter and a (new) lens control may be logical. I understand that CMV lenses are better then my 6008 glass, just wanted to utilize my lens collection and save some money .
Thanks,
Yevgeny
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99670\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Dear Yevgeny,

First of all, the Rollei X-Act 2 has not been discontinued and is available from all Sinar disribtors worldwide.

Future developments with and adaption of Rollei lenses to the Sinar system: such has not been decided yet, and therefore I can't say much about it at this stage.

Best regards,
Thierry

Toby1014 · « **Reply #69 on:** February 07, 2007, 07:10:02 pm »

Quote

didnt you started your ( first post in LL?) comments telling that there is a clear winner ( phase ) amd a clear looser ( sinar ) in terms of image quality?

i already have asked you for your name, or website, or anything which could give little bit transparency to your person and of your skills, as most people are giving here.
its not very usefull to use namedropping here for replacing your own name.
than telling how "good" and how neutral you share your great experience.
and telling really strange PR-bs about lenses and backs.

i share my experience too ( as you state that you do it ), but i dont do it anonymous and i think i really know what about i speak from my own experience. do you?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99743\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

In my opinion (ad I am not alone since it also reflects market share):

Clear winner: Phase or Leaf
So so but ok: Hasselblad
4th place: Sinar

BUT I also state that every photographer should be testing for them self and not believe you or me.

There are a lot of anonymous contributors on this forum; there are also dealers and factory reps (with their own agenda), and serious photographers like you (with or without an agenda)

thsinar · « **Reply #70 on:** February 07, 2007, 07:21:56 pm »

Quote

Hi Graham

As a photo editor I am use to dealing with files from a lot of different MFD backs

What I see in your 100% file crop and pointed out is quite common seen on e22 and e75 Sinar backs. So I wish you the best of luck with other RAW development options.

In my opinion

Leaf and Phase rocks
Hasselblad so so
Sinar comes in as no. 4

And to Ethan – you should first try out different backs and decide witch one you like, then choose a camera system, not the other way around.

You will be surprised how different the 4 brands of backs perform.

In my opinion a Leaf or Phase back on a Hasselblad / Mamiya / Contax system will easily outperform a Sinar back on a Hy6 even with Schneider lenses…..

Good luck with your choice – but very important TEST for you self before buying.

Toby
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99701\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Dear Toby,

As a serious "tester" you are certainly not without knowing that any such comments and quality comparisons are useless and of no value. I can prove you the contrary any time, and the opposite of the contrary any time too! Let alone that by speaking one can prove anything, from any type and any brand of digital back.

Make use of the back the correct way and you will get files with astonishing quality, from Phase, Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar digital backs.

I am a Sinar employee, and as such cannot let this statement without reaction. But I can say also, that as a serious photographer with 28 years of experience with large format and film, then the jump and the experience with digital since the begin of the nineties, I won't even dare to say that my competitors are producing rubbish quality, simply because it would not be fair and true. I have great respect of any competitor, as much for the name as for the quality produced by all of us with MFDB.

Best regards,
Thierry

rethmeier · « **Reply #71 on:** February 07, 2007, 07:27:23 pm »

Well said Thierry!

Keep up the good work!

Regards,

Willem.

rainer_v · « **Reply #72 on:** February 07, 2007, 07:27:26 pm »

Quote

In my opinion (ad I am not alone since it also reflects market share):

Clear winner: Phase or Leaf
So so but ok: Hasselblad
4th place: Sinar

BUT I also state that every photographer should be testing for them self and not believe you or me.

There are a lot of anonymous contributors on this forum; there are also dealers and factory reps (with their own agenda), and serious photographers like you (with or without an agenda)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99746\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

are you some missleaded phase employe?
why you dont answer my questions for your background?

maybe graham is right and you are just a simple "troll".

Graham Mitchell · « **Reply #73 on:** February 07, 2007, 07:30:56 pm »

According to some, McDonalds is the best food you can buy and Toyota makes the best cars. The market shares prove it!

Now let's return to an objective comparison of the systems in question.

thsinar · « **Reply #74 on:** February 07, 2007, 07:33:05 pm »

Quote

Well Rainer I will have to disagree here.

There seem to be a common mistake on this forum, that all backs deliver more or less the same quality files (when you get to know the software well) and that the real different is the Camera and lenses used. (And in workflow).

I strongly recommend all photographers who want to get into MFD photography to test and try out different backs and decide for your self.

You will be surprised by the difference in file quality between a Hasselblad 39 back and a Phase P45 back (same sensor) on a side by side shoot with the same camera and lens. This is also the case between Leaf A75 and Sinar e75.

The difference in my opinion is much larger than the difference in lens quality from Schneider glass to Hasselblad/Fuji to Contax to Mamyia glass.

Regarding Architectural photography – Here is a award winning photographer who is shooting with Phase One back

My two cents: Get the back you want first then go for a camera system.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Dear Toby,

there are as well "Award Winning" photograhers with Sinar, and even in "Fashion/Beauty", like e.g.:

[a href=\"http://www.sarahsilver.com/]http://www.sarahsilver.com/[/url]

&

http://www.justincooper.net/ (in reconstruction currently)

Like there are "Award Winning" photograhers with Leaf or with Hasselblad.

Who are you for making such statements?

Best regards,
Thierry

Toby1014 · « **Reply #75 on:** February 07, 2007, 07:56:49 pm »

Quote

Dear Toby,

there are as well "Award Winning" photograhers with Sinar, and even in "Fashion/Beauty", like e.g.:

http://www.sarahsilver.com/

&

http://www.justincooper.net/ (in reconstruction currently)

Like there are "Award Winning" photograhers with Leaf or with Hasselblad.

Who are you for making such statements?

Best regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99751\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well I really got the Sinar Guys pissed at me !

My statements are based on experience working with files from different backs.

And I am sorry that Sinar in my opinion does not deliver same quality files as Leaf or Phase. I understand you have to react due to your position at Sinar.

Well you can write that my opinion is not valid, but I am just suggesting that photographers test different backs before buying into a MFD system.

You want us to think that there is just a little difference between the backs and the difference comes down to raw converter and workflow.

This is simply not true – there is major difference between backs !

If you are so sure about your product, I would encourage you to give Michael an e75, and have him test it up against his P45 - but I guess you don’t dare after all !

Toby

Toby1014 · « **Reply #76 on:** February 07, 2007, 08:01:34 pm »

Quote

According to some, McDonalds is the best food you can buy and Toyota makes the best cars. The market shares prove it!

Now let's return to an objective comparison of the systems in question.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99750\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

"Objective Comparison" ??

The only way is to try the back out for your self !

I wonder why all of you Sinar guys are so reluctant

thsinar · « **Reply #77 on:** February 07, 2007, 08:55:33 pm »

Quote

Well I really got the Sinar Guys pissed at me !

My statements are based on experience working with files from different backs.

And I am sorry that Sinar in my opinion does not deliver same quality files as Leaf or Phase. I understand you have to react due to your position at Sinar.

Well you can write that my opinion is not valid, but I am just suggesting that photographers test different backs before buying into a MFD system.

You want us to think that there is just a little difference between the backs and the difference comes down to raw converter and workflow.

This is simply not true – there is major difference between backs !

If you are so sure about your product, I would encourage you to give Michael an e75, and have him test it up against his P45 - but I guess you don’t dare after all !

Toby
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99757\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Again Toby,

make your identity public, publish your credits and your real agenda. You are a member since yesterday and start to criticize and denigrate a brand (being it Sinar or any other does not matter) with the obvious reasons and purposes to only denigrate.

There are no facts and no serious points and arguments in your posts, which makes it aq kind of strange, not only for Sinar users on this forum, but also to all other respectable photographers.

Sinar is not afraid to make any side-by-side test, and many have been made already. And let me tell you that they do not even coincide with your own conclusions.

We are of course ready and anytime to organize such a testing: all one has to do is to get in touch with our PR Dpt. at Sinar Switzerland and contact our Mr. Lorenz Koch (lorenz.koch@sinar.ch).

Now, it is also my guess that all the members and back owners here on this Forum have not only tested the backs before making a choice and purchase decision, but they most probably have even run some real-life productions before doing so (at least so is my experience with most of our customers): I would expect so from any serious photographer investing (not only buying) in such equipment.

As for my own agenda here, if you are asking me: I am here with my real name, with my management's knowledge and agreement though not asked to do so. Yes, I am a Sinar employee and proud to be, but yes too, I am also a photographer with some little experience with my 28 years dealing with cameras and more recently digital backs. And by dealing I do not only mean to "get files from others" and judge then judge them, but also by handling and shooting with the tools itself and even by teaching in worshops and seminars since 17 years now and worldwide. By saying this I do not intend to profile myself or being pretending, but it simply gives me the necessary assurance to stand behind my posts on this forum.

This being said, it is my opinion that it makes no further sense to argue with each other here. You can contact me anytime offline and at my direct email address (thierry.hagenauer@sinar.ch) to discuss, if your intention is a serious discussion.

All the best to you,
Thierry

Camdavidson · « **Reply #78 on:** February 07, 2007, 09:07:46 pm »

Quote

i agree in testing the backs, i disagree in the file quality order you make. so my 1:1 comparisons i have done show the opposite than yours in case of sinar and leaf, i usually dont do other things than architecture and with the last 22mp generation of backs the miss of color shifts has been my 1. reason to go for the dalsa sensor, after that i thought if go with leaf or with sinar,- i have collected much experience with kodak sensorsbefore ( which have not changed their design in this aspect ) to know what it means a.e. to stitch images which are corrected with inverted files as the lcc workflow provides.

ofcourse tim griffith is a very good photographer and i like his work, but what the hell you want to say with your statement?.....
about awards: i dont have won any award ,- at first because i never have sent in any work to any photo price or competition ( i am not saying that i would have won if i would have participated, i dont have any idea about )..... but i have to tell you also that i shoot with sinar backs and i do huge projects for several very famous clients.... projects i have shot have won many awards and prices in every of the last years, my clients have been used herefor the photos i have made,- with 4x5", canons 1ds and kodak slr cameras, with roundshot film cameras, and with 22+33mp backs ( from sinar ).
further you can be sure that tim griffith would win his awards also if he would use sinar backs, or imacon or leaf backs or 4x5" film ( or whatever ).....
its usually the photographer who makes great photos,- not his back.

i disagree also about the lenses:
a well corrected (nearly ) symmetric lense as the sinar/ rodenstock 35HR is for my work an absolute other thing than a bad corrected unsymmetric wideangle than a.e. the mamiya 35mm which gets unsharp 20mm away from the center if not stopped down very much and shows 2 or 3% of moustache form distortion, aside from clear visible green-magenta CA at the edges. i would prefere by far to work with the rodenstock lense with ANY 17mp chip ( although the chips have been too little- so i would have to use a 28HR or 24xl,- but i just want to give an example ) than to use ANY of the 30,33 or 39mp backs together with the bad lense.
but again: whats for me a bad lense ( distortion,- unsharp edges ) might be for other purposes absolute ok, whats a good lense for my work ( symmetric lenses , probably with a copal shutter .... ) will be simply unusuable for fashion shots, independent which back you put behind the lense.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=99719\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Tim Griffith is a kicking photographer - a great Australian shooter who has an amazing sense of composition and a well designed web site. ( a site that seems to have "inspired" a few other photographers. I've seen one that looks pretty much like it came from the same code or designer)

He has the typical Aussie personality, deserves the awards he has won and frankly, could shoot with anything including a toy camera and come up with killer images.

You choose the best tool for the job as you see fit. Tim uses a P45 - it is the best tool for how he works. Others use the Aptus. Some use the Sinar. Others the Imacon/Hassy backs.

In the end, the images are what is most important.

med007 · « **Reply #79 on:** February 07, 2007, 10:14:36 pm »

Quote

Running low on arguments Graham, doesn’t seem like you when you are promoting the Hy6 and e22.

I guess you ran your image through Sinar Capture Shop and still got the same result.

BTW there are good and bad trolls – I am a good one trying to help new MFD photographers to make their own test and decide for them self, not promoting a special brand of back. Witch kind of troll are you ?
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Good Trolls?

This conversation is why I believe one should disclose one's real name. Then you have your reputation at stake! A person's statements must be seen in the context of their professionalism.

I have personally been so impressed with Rainer's work that I flew to Munich to meet him. His opinion on photography is worth paying attention to.

I use Rainer, not to single him out, (I just happen to know him) as he is merely representative of all like photographers who have dedicated themselves to excellence in what they choose to photograph.

More, they know in depth the technical details of competing systems because they tested them for their unique practical and esthetic needs Their choices are driven by rationalism, the factors needed to achieve the photographic quality he/she requires to deliver to the client.

They don't hide behind pseudonyms. They are known. Their decisions aren't spasms of choice based on the buzz or on what some guru reports testing the camera for a weekend. Rather each lens is considered based on its behavior with the sensor. Many factors beyond geometry and contrast such as the imaging materials with uniformity like the steel and aluminum of modern buildings or whatever is important to them and many other such issues which can make (or detract from) the final image.

Add to this they often have developed an insightful investigatory approach to lens and sensor choice.

In his particular case, I happen to know that his other personal work is especially ephemeral.
There's so much more that goes into the professional choice of equipment, that to argue based on the images that come over your desk is, to my mind, a stretch.

You might say I like this photographer's work with this camera, but how can one rank these backs and lenses without having the in depth experience? That really is hubris.

One can talk about one's own needs, own experience and own preferences, not rank complex instruments used by different photographers with different needs and values used under disparate conditions.

There are no good trolls, BTW, not while they are still breathing!

Asher Kelman

[a href=\"http://www.openphotographyforums.com]Open Photography Forums[/url]

Author Topic: Hy6 vs H3D - Buyer's eval process (Read 99259 times)