Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa

[Alan Klein]

I'm hoping that this may give rise to more pleasant rest stops on highways in the future, since people may be at them a little longer. Seems like an opportunity. Every rest stop I've ever been to just made me want to leave as soon as possible. Why can't I drink my coffee and eat my pastry in a nice comfy chair instead of a plastic sciatic nerve crusher. Why is the public aesthetic to be ugly and uncomfortable instead of being pleasant and restful.

It reminds me of a trip I took to Finland a few decades ago. I needed to exchange currency and dropped into a bank in downtown Helsinki early in the morning. Both the teller and I were seated in nice comfortable chairs, something new to me that made so much sense. Not a difficult concept, really. You can just sense the Calvinist roots in the way we live though. Somehow, we all sort of feel as if making life more pleasant for employees is wrong and will lead to sloth and inefficiency. The mindset lingers: work is "work", it's not supposed to be pleasant!

I get a chuckle when I think about things like this because we keep being told that we live in a service economy. That must be Newspeak, up is down, black is white. Service? Really, where?

I agree.  When I was a kid, the rest stops were nice.  Marriot started the Hot Shoppes where all the servers wore nice uniforms, the places were clean and they served you like in a restaurant.  Today, many have dirty bathrooms and cold coffee you have to pour yourself. 

[Alan Klein]

Nothing wrong with either the driver or the car. Really nothing "wrong" with the charging station except that it wasn't designed to be very fast. The comment in the video was with regard to the 50 kW fast-charge stations from Circuit électrique as shown in the video, not the faster charge stations to be found elsewhere or that will become more common over time.

"Most of the chargers that were on convenient routes to my destinations were only 50 kW fast-chargers. If the IONIQ 5 was at 10%, it would take over an hour to charge back up to 80 on one of those."

The difference in your video is the higher wattage charging station. As your video also shows, the charge rate will decrease as the battery charge level increases due to internal resistance building up in the battery. This is normal with current EV battery and charging technology.

As a side note: Neither a Tesla nor Hyundai will force you to stand in the cold Canadian air while charging.  That's just a case of exaggerating and embellishing a story for a reaction and attention.

You can sit inside the comfort of your car, go have a cup of coffee, or grab lunch at McDonald's as shown in one of the other videos. Actually, dining in comfort while charging the car was a pretty common theme in the IONIQ 5 road trip videos, which makes more sense than standing outside for no reason and freezing.

Wouldn't keeping the heater going whie charging just extend the long charge time even more?

[Alan Klein]

Not just American. With the possible exception of Montreal that has very good public transit, Canadian cities have evolved the same way.

In general we should be more concerned about this that we are. In the inter-city realm, train service is not very good and when Greyhound ceased operating (in Canada) during Covid, it left a lot of people who didn't own cars stranded. At the same time, smaller more affordable cars were jettisoned, and to complete the perfect storm there are long waits for new cars at the moment (8 to 12 months for a Corolla Hybrid). In Canada, EV models all cost more than $40,000 and we have effectively outlawed cheaper smaller limited-speed urban EV alternatives that are available elsewhere in the world.

Someone above described the very high $60,000 CAN price of a specific EV model, but whenever I try to find parking at my grocery store I'm surrounded by huge pick-up trucks that all cost $60,000 and up. And I can tell by how spotless they are that these are personal family transport, not commercial vehicles. And I keep seeing videos about large EV trucks whose prices are greater than $100,000, which used to be exotic car territory.

The average age for a car used to be around 7 years in the USA.  It's up to around 12 years.  People just can't afford new cars.  I bought my 2012 when the 3 years lease ran out and just bought my 2019 car when it's lease ran out.  I probably would have leased a new car for the 2019, but the prices are exorbitant, way over MSRP.  As it is my 2019 is probably worth $7,000 more than I paid for it per my lease because used prices have gone up even more than new car prices.  The whole market is distorted.

[digitaldog]

Wouldn't keeping the heater going whie charging just extend the long charge time even more?

Warning: Troll bait.

Asinine troll bait.
Importing timeline:

Not sure whether that US or Canadian $60k?

He stated that the car he tested was the fully-loaded $60,000 model.  ($US$46,000)

Evidence of a new level of asinine writings. 

[Robert Roaldi]

No offense but he sounds like an idiot. In every EV I know about, you can sit in the car while charging, run the heat or AC as needed, listen to the radio, and watch movies on the car's screen streamed from your phone.

It may be a mistake to rely on Alan's interpretation of what was said in the video. Just saying. The reviewer was pretty down to earth and if he made mention of freezing at the charging station, I suspect he was being tongue-in-cheek.

OTOH, you must realize that it's a tradition here in Canada to stand around in the freezing cold and complain about it.

[digitaldog]

It may be a mistake to rely on Alan's interpretation of what was said in the video.

Not limited to just one video.... 

[Alan Klein]

It may be a mistake to rely on Alan's interpretation of what was said in the video. Just saying. The reviewer was pretty down to earth and if he made mention of freezing at the charging station, I suspect he was being tongue-in-cheek.

OTOH, you must realize that it's a tradition here in Canada to stand around in the freezing cold and complain about it.

I didn't misinterpret anything. Anyone could watch the video and will make the same determination.

[digitaldog]

Anyone could watch the video and will make the same determination.

Anyone not paying attention and/or not able to comprehend (grasp mentally; understand) English yes.
The rest here, no.

[LesPalenik]

Wouldn't keeping the heater going whie charging just extend the long charge time even more?

Yes, slightly. But why suffer needlessly?
BTW, if you preheat the battery, the charging will be more efficient.

[LesPalenik]

The average age for a car used to be around 7 years in the USA.  It's up to around 12 years.  People just can't afford new cars.  I bought my 2012 when the 3 years lease ran out and just bought my 2019 car when it's lease ran out.  I probably would have leased a new car for the 2019, but the prices are exorbitant, way over MSRP.  As it is my 2019 is probably worth $7,000 more than I paid for it per my lease because used prices have gone up even more than new car prices.  The whole market is distorted.

It looks like (at least in some US states) the tide is turning. With the record wave of car repossessions, the dealer and auctions car lots are filling fast. Recently, I watched a video from Las Vegas where the repo operators are building new large car lots to manage the inflows of repossessed cars. This will have a strong effect on the prices of used cars.

[Alan Klein]

It looks like (at least in some US states) the tide is turning. With the record wave of car repossessions, the dealer and auctions car lots are filling fast. Recently, I watched a video from Las Vegas where the repo operators are building new large car lots to manage the inflows of repossessed cars. This will have a strong effect on the prices of used cars.

That's what happens in a recession. As people can afford things less, supply and inventories go up and the prices go down.  Of course, inflation pushes them up first.  Then companies lay people off because they're producing less as sales drop. The more people are laid off and repo increases lowering prices even more.   Meanwhile, the Fed is still printing raising prices even more as the currency devalues.  All this is stagflation.  Just like the 1970s. Less productivity, fewer workers, a recession, yet higher prices. 

Yesterday I paid $97 to fill up my sedan, more than double what I piad a year or so ago.  It takes high test.  I think I'll have to check out EVs.

[digitaldog]

It takes high test.

That explains it. 

[TechTalk]

It may be a mistake to rely on Alan's interpretation of what was said in the video. Just saying. The reviewer was pretty down to earth and if he made mention of freezing at the charging station, I suspect he was being tongue-in-cheek.

The reviewer didn't mention freezing at the charging station because it didn't happen. Typically, the car was charged during meals or overnight at the hotel and interspersed with an occasional shorter top up and break from driving during the long road trip with friends.

Then you have the misrepresentation regarding what the reviewer said about using and charging the car which he decided to buy. What the reviewer says is: "This is still fairly new tech and it's going to take a little bit while longer to work out all the kinks. But, you know what? Unless you're the kind of person that travels like 400 kilometers a day for work, that's almost never going to be an issue for you; because if you install a fairly cheap Level 2 charging station at home, your car will be fully charged and ready to go every single day."

This discussion of daily use for work gets misinterpreted as: "he said that it wouldn't be used for long trips but rather used locally only so he could always charge it overnight at home". Yeah... the reviewer never said "it wouldn't be used for long trips", only that it could be an issue to drive it 400 kilometers every day for work. Just like he never said his car would be "used locally only so he could always charge it overnight at home". None of that was said or even implied. The daily use for work context was simply eliminated to create a twisted narrative and inaccurate quote.

Yeah. Just the usual seeing what you want to see and hearing what you want to hear. At the end of the two road trip videos, which preceded the review, he said: "My overall thoughts were very positive. It was a joy to drive on my road trip, despite the charging issues that we encountered due to the Canadian charging infrastructure."

[TechTalk]

No offense but he sounds like an idiot.

See above.

In every EV I know about, you can sit in the car while charging, run the heat or AC as needed, listen to the radio, and watch movies on the car's screen streamed from your phone.

Of course... and relative to the energy capacity required to propel all of that weight down a highway for long periods, using the climate control makes barely any difference in the battery charging time.

[LesPalenik]

He stated that the car he tested was the fully-loaded $60,000 model.  ($US$46,000)

According to the latest JD Power report, the average price of EV from a year earlier is now $54,000 (up 22%) and average price of ICE car is $44,000 (up 14%).
Rivian's CEO RJ Scaringe said that "We are in a world where it almost seems like (limitless) in terms of willingness to pay".
Mercedes has announced that they will stop production of their lower priced A and B class cars and concentrate on more expensive models.
So with new EV truck prices over $100K, this will leave many less fortunate people riding bicycles or waiting for the cheap China imports.

[Alan Klein]

Yes, slightly. But why suffer needlessly?
BTW, if you preheat the battery, the charging will be more efficient.

Here's a comparison between the 2022 Hyundai Ioniq 5 and the Tesla Model 3.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I81Uelgw7b8

[TechTalk]

According to the latest JD Power report, the average price of EV from a year earlier is now $54,000 (up 22%) and average price of ICE car is $44,000 (up 14%)...

...So with new EV truck prices over $100K, this will leave many less fortunate people riding bicycles or waiting for the cheap China imports.

The 2023 Chevy Bolt has a current starting MSRP of $26,595 which is a reduction of $5,900 from previous models. The Hyundai IONIQ 5 SE Standard Range starts at $39,950 and qualifies for a U.S. $7,500 Federal Tax Credit. The Kia EV 6 has a starting MSRP of $40,900 and also qualifies for the $7,500 Federal Tax Credit.

So, there are alternatives to "people riding bicycles or waiting for the cheap China imports".

[Alan Klein]

The 2023 Chevy Bolt has a current starting MSRP of $26,595 which is a reduction of $5,900 from previous models. The Hyundai IONIQ 5 SE Standard Range starts at $39,950 and qualifies for a U.S. $7,500 Federal Tax Credit. The Kia EV 6 has a starting MSRP of $40,900 and also qualifies for the $7,500 Federal Tax Credit.

So, there are alternatives to "people riding bicycles or waiting for the cheap China imports".

The Bolt isn't much better than an electric bike with an umbrella. 

[digitaldog]

The Bolt isn't much better than an electric bike with an umbrella. 

This is from someone who presumably has never driven a Bolt or an electric bike.
This is from someone who never lets a nearly complete assumption of a subject get in the way of having a strong opinion about it.

[Alan Klein]

Here's a comparison between the 2022 Hyundai Ioniq 5 and the Tesla Model 3.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I81Uelgw7b8

To me the Tesla looks like a cheap $16K Toyota Carolla with a big battery.  Tiny car. Looks cheap.  It has fewer knobs and gages than the Ioniq 5 which I think makes the car more unsafe as your eyes distract more than on the Ioniq and typical ICE cars.  The manufacturer saves a lot of money using the screen.  But like a camera today that is all menus and few knobs, it's less ergonomically efficient and comfortable to operate.

The Ioniq 5 looks more like a typical ICE car, larger, more stylish, etc.  Telsa has to up its style game as other manufacturers come out with EVs that have more style and class.  One issue they pointed out the Ioniq has no rear wiper so the window clogs up with fog and snow.  The Tesla 3 on the other hand doesn;t seem to have a seal on the front light and looks flooded. (1:43)  Maybe Nikon can teach them how to seal things.

Of course, its hard to tell driving performance, suspension, sound system quality, fit and finish, etc.  These guys are not expert car reviewers.