Luminous Landscape Forum

The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: Jeremy Roussak on November 04, 2020, 04:11:12 am

Title: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on November 04, 2020, 04:11:12 am
It's 4th November. From now, this thread is the only place at The Luminous Landscape in which political discussion (including discussion of climate change) is permitted: see here (https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=136535.0) for more information.

Those who enter this thread do so at their own risk. I may read it myself, or I may look merely at complaints submitted to the moderators by outraged members who have strayed into it, accidentally or otherwise. I have closed down political discussion here because it was occupying too much of my time; if this thread intrudes similarly, it will not survive.

Jeremy
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 04, 2020, 05:10:19 am
Nice choice of title  ;)
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 04, 2020, 07:19:35 am
Slobodan, that's a nice shot of the fearless bare-back rider. They both look well fed and muscular.
Would you have also a shot of Trump on a bull? Well, actually considering his "victory speech", they should strap him to Elon Musk's rocket and send him towards some black hole.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 04, 2020, 08:46:42 am
Les, would this make you happy?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 04, 2020, 09:19:32 am
Yes, that will do.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: RSL on November 04, 2020, 09:28:43 am
Jeremy, is that going to include climate politics too? The climate thread pretends to deal with climate, but the whole climate argument is driven by politics.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 04, 2020, 10:31:13 am
Jeremy, is that going to include climate politics too? The climate thread pretends to deal with climate, but the whole climate argument is driven by politics.

From now, this thread is the only place at The Luminous Landscape in which political discussion (including discussion of climate change) is permitted...

That is how I interpret Jeremy's post. Nobody ever discussed the science because nobody was qualified to do so. They just told you what they read on the internet which confirmed what they wanted to believe. Then, for example, Alan would chime in and tell me my conclusions about the polar bears' march to extinction were bogus because I didn't count the bears' declining population on my fingers and toes, but had used an algorithm or projection or something. Meanwhile, anybody with any sense was in the darkroom, and so escaped the inanity of the discussion.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on November 04, 2020, 10:43:35 am
Bears are nice and in risk of extinction due to climate change. They do not deserve to be ill-treated by featuring in the title of the thread.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 04, 2020, 10:50:32 am
So I went to bed pretty early last night because at the top of each hour the anchor guy would come on and say, in an authoritative voice, that in the states whose polls had just closed, the race was too early to call. I figured that was going to go on for a while, and the final results were going to take a few days, and, well, I was reading this pretty interesting book, and thought that reading would be more enjoyable than watching nothing happen on TV. So I woke up this morning, reached over and picked up my iPad, and read that Trump had declared it was all over and he, frankly, had won. I have included a link to his victory speech. So I extend my hearty congratulations to all Trump supporters. He was not my first choice, but I'll hope for the best. Then I remembered that sometimes Trump exaggerates, and makes aspirational statements, so I'll guess I'll just have to watch the news tonight to see if there are any new developments. Who knows, Trump may be right. If he has won, there sure are going to be a lot of disappointed lawyers out there who won't be buying themselves a new Mercedes for Christmas.

Trump calls to halt vote counting, prematurely declares victory

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imaYlHjhzEY

Try to ignore all the CNN commentary, particularly from Don Lemon, if that is Don Lemon, because I don't watch CNN and may be mistaken, but just listen to Trump's victory speech a minute or so in. Or just hit mute or until Trump starts talking.

All right, I admit it, I turned on the TV. They were showing a close up of this guy with coke bottle glasses and bloodshot eyes looking at a hanging chad, and I got the willies and turned it off. That was more than enough until this evening.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 04, 2020, 11:21:11 am
I can't remember if Trump actually said that they were getting ready to win this election and that they did win this election or maybe I was just having a bad dream.
Anyway, when I woke up, it looked more like Biden won the election. Oh yeah, Trump also said that his goal was to ensure the integrity for the good of nation. That might start to be happening very soon now.
 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 04, 2020, 11:26:17 am
I can't remember if Trump actually said that they were getting ready to win this election and that they did win this election or maybe I was just having a bad dream.
Anyway, when I woke up, it looked more like Biden won the election. Oh yeah, Trump also said that his goal was to ensure the integrity for the good of nation. That might start to be happening very soon now.

Well we don't really know who won the election just yet, but watching a 180k or so vote drop in the middle of the night is a bit strange. And whats with NV stopping all vote counting for 24 hours?  People in Vegas need to be at home and in bed by 10:30 pm or what? 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 04, 2020, 11:40:25 am
Well we don't really know who won the election just yet, but watching a 180k or so vote drop in the middle of the night is a bit strange.
Nothing strange about the vote changing as more ballots, in this case, absentee/mail in from a majority of one side, being counted and added.
This wouldn't be as large an 'issue' IF all states had the same rules in terms of when (and how) to count ballots from mail-in and absentee. Do examine the facts this year in terms of how many more votes came in this way instead of just yesterday.
Oh, and don't forget the military where in some states, their mail in votes can be received up to 10 days after November 3rd. Unless you really feel all those patriots are losers and suckers, their votes too, deserve to be counted.
We all need to take a deep breath and let all the votes be counted, just as done in the past. Nothing new here. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: John Camp on November 04, 2020, 11:54:56 am
I'm doing the chicken dance -- it's not a pretty sight -- and hoping I'm not premature.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 04, 2020, 12:01:20 pm
Nothing strange about the vote changing as more ballots, in this case, absentee/mail in from a majority of one side, being counted and added.... 

I do not vouch for the veracity of this Facebook post, and I am fully aware it might be a fake news, doctored, etc., but it shows an interesting point, if true: all the new ballots, 100% of them, went to Biden.

Again, this particular one might be fake, but it shows actually how to check results, i.e., by comparing tallying at various point in time:

https://www.facebook.com/soyouwantthetruthabout/photos/a.102244818268331/144911760668303/?type=3

Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 04, 2020, 12:16:58 pm
So I went to bed pretty early last night because at the top of each hour the anchor guy would come on and say, in an authoritative voice, that in the states whose polls had just closed, the race was too early to call. I figured that was going to go on for a while, and the final results were going to take a few days, and, well, I was reading this pretty interesting book, and thought that reading would be more enjoyable than watching nothing happen on TV. So I woke up this morning, reached over and picked up my iPad, and read that Trump had declared it was all over and he, frankly, had won. I have included a link to his victory speech. So I extend my hearty congratulations to all Trump supporters. He was not my first choice, but I'll hope for the best. Then I remembered that sometimes Trump exaggerates, and makes aspirational statements, so I'll guess I'll just have to watch the news tonight to see if there are any new developments. Who knows, Trump may be right. If he has won, there sure are going to be a lot of disappointed lawyers out there who won't be buying themselves a new Mercedes for Christmas.

Trump calls to halt vote counting, prematurely declares victory

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imaYlHjhzEY

Try to ignore all the CNN commentary, particularly from Don Lemon, if that is Don Lemon, because I don't watch CNN and may be mistaken, but just listen to Trump's victory speech a minute or so in. Or just hit mute or until Trump starts talking.

All right, I admit it, I turned on the TV. They were showing a close up of this guy with coke bottle glasses and bloodshot eyes looking at a hanging chad, and I got the willies and turned it off. That was more than enough until this evening.

One positive note of the election being held yesterday, my email inbox is looking much better today.  No more fevered requests for a check or credit card number...
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on November 04, 2020, 12:32:18 pm
I'm doing the chicken dance -- it's not a pretty sight -- and hoping I'm not premature.

I think it is premature. Trump is ahead in the States that are not decided yet and that hold a lot of the remaining electoral votes, like Georgia, Pensilvania, and North Carolina.

Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 04, 2020, 12:37:36 pm
One positive note of the election being held yesterday, my email inbox is looking much better today.  No more fevered requests for a check or credit card numner...

I made a donation a couple of months ago, and was getting email six or eight times a day, so I checked the box asking them to stop sending me emails, and they stopped for a while, but then they started up again in earnest two or three weeks ago. That's one reason that I never tried my hand at politics; I hate begging people for stuff, and hate worse being beholden. One year I drew the short straw and had to run the United Way campaign at the office, and I was on the board of directors for the opera for quite a while, and so I had to submit to the humiliation of begging people for money. I remember one year I bought my daughter's entire allotment of Girl Scout cookies and gave them away at the office so she wouldn't have to go through the ordeal. I think this attitude arose in my youth when my school decided it wanted to buy a swing set or something, and thought it would be a good idea to have all of the students go around their neighborhood and sell Ice Grip, which came in a plastic bottle and looked suspiciously like sand, and you put it behind your tires to get better traction on snow and ice. The thing was it hadn't snowed in six or eight years. I couldn't look at myself in the mirror for weeks it was so traumatic.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 04, 2020, 12:54:32 pm
I do not vouch for the veracity of this Facebook post, and I am fully aware it might be a fake news, doctored, etc., but it shows an interesting point, if true: all the new ballots, 100% of them, went to Biden.

Again, this particular one might be fake, but it shows actually how to check results, i.e., by comparing tallying at various point in time:

https://www.facebook.com/soyouwantthetruthabout/photos/a.102244818268331/144911760668303/?type=3

So I looked at those charts you posted, and wondered why if the Biden folks were going to cheat, why didn't they cheat enough to put him in first place?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 04, 2020, 01:05:50 pm
So I looked at those charts you posted, and wondered why if the Biden folks were going to cheat, why didn't they cheat enough to put him in first place?

Step by step. He is now.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: John Camp on November 04, 2020, 01:23:16 pm
Step by step. He is now.

I also looked at the site  you posted, and would note that the first related website that they refer you to is run by "Red Pill Fairy."
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 04, 2020, 01:34:31 pm
Step by step. He is now.

So they did it incrementally so it didn't look suspicious? What masterminds. Glad you caught them red-handed. Who or what is the Red Pill Fairy?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: John Camp on November 04, 2020, 01:43:37 pm
I think it is premature. Trump is ahead in the States that are not decided yet and that hold a lot of the remaining electoral votes, like Georgia, Pensilvania, and North Carolina.

Those states don't count. The only states that count now are Arizona, Michigan, Wisconsin, Nevada and the single-electoral district in Nebraska. Biden leads in all of those.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 04, 2020, 02:00:50 pm
It looks like Fox News can walk and chew gum at the same time. At the same time they are covering the election, they have found time to cover this important story:

Lori Loughlin is a 'wreck' during first few days in prison

https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/lori-loughlin-prison-first-days-wreck-source

At least Fox News is covering it. All the commie/lib media have swept it under the rug.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: William Walker on November 04, 2020, 02:11:32 pm
I do not vouch for the veracity of this Facebook post, and I am fully aware it might be a fake news, doctored, etc., but it shows an interesting point, if true: all the new ballots, 100% of them, went to Biden.

Again, this particular one might be fake, but it shows actually how to check results, i.e., by comparing tallying at various point in time:

https://www.facebook.com/soyouwantthetruthabout/photos/a.102244818268331/144911760668303/?type=3

This is from the guy who originated the info.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 04, 2020, 02:28:17 pm
This is from the guy who originated the info.

Is he other than some random guy on the internet that likes to do Excel charts?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 04, 2020, 02:32:48 pm
Since things are slow around here today, I’ll answer my own question about the Red Pill Fairy:

https://www.patreon.com/redpillfairy

Maybe there are more than one. This is the first one that popped up on Google.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on November 04, 2020, 03:24:59 pm
Adios amigos!  It's been a good run and LuLa is now past history for me.  Those of you who know me know how to contact me and those of you who don't care for my politics can shade a tear or maybe even laugh.  It's been a good run but the photography stuff here is not current any longer.  I'm still hanging out at Kevin's site.

See you all at the Last Chance Saloon some day.  Until then, take some good pictures.

Alan
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 04, 2020, 03:33:42 pm
I have been thinking about polling. I admit upfront that I don't really know how it works except that the pollster calls up a bunch of people, asks them questions, and tallies up the responses.  I was wondering how they handle someone like me who, when a pollster calls, immediately hangs up no matter whether the poll is about politics or potato chips. I guess they just cross me off the list, and keep calling until the reach the bottom of the list. That kind of takes out of the equation a certain kind of person. The question is is a hanger-upper more likely to vote for Trump or Biden, or for sour cream or barbeque chips.  Maybe polls erroneously showed Biden leading Trump in certain jurisdictions because Biden voters were less likely to hang up on the pollster than Trump voters, or, as has been suggested before, Trump voters lied and said they were voting for Biden because they didn't want to admit the were voting for Trump. I guess this would be more prevalent in political polls. Who is going to lie about what kind of potato chips they prefer? So how do you account for the hanger-uppers, if at all? You can't really poll the hanger-uppers because they hang up.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 04, 2020, 03:54:59 pm
Anybody know why the country as a whole is roughly 50/50? Doesn't that strike anyone as odd? The Coke/Pepsi split is 42/31 for example.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 04, 2020, 04:00:06 pm
I do not vouch for the veracity of this Facebook post, and I am fully aware it might be a fake news, doctored, etc., but it shows an interesting point, if true: all the new ballots, 100% of them, went to Biden.

Again, this particular one might be fake, but it shows actually how to check results, i.e., by comparing tallying at various point in time:

So I looked at those charts you posted, and wondered why if the Biden folks were going to cheat, why didn't they cheat enough to put him in first place?

Step by step. He is now.

There is no mystery about this. No cheating. There is no 100% Biden vote dump story here. It isn't fake news, doctored, etc. It was a simple and obvious mistake by a human being doing data entry that was corrected very quickly. Naturally, that didn't prevent the false and frenzied claims of fraud from circulating thru social media.

Before putting stuff like this out on social media or posting it online (even with disclaimers), people should use their common sense, take a deep breath, and research what actually happened. But, that's not going to happen and so it becomes a reader beware scenario.

A couple of facts to consider before anyone gets over their skis on this "story" on social media.

- The "story" was based on a couple of screenshots of a media website called Decision Desk Headquarters (DDHQ) and not official reporting of verified vote totals from the Michigan Secretary of State's office.

- While entering an update to the vote tally for Shiawassee County in Michigan, someone accidentally added a zero on the end of Biden's vote tally for that county. A worker entered "153,710" when it was actually "15,371". The total population of Shiawassee County is only about 70,000 people. It was an obvious error in data entry which was momentarily displayed on Decision Desk Headquarters website before being corrected very quickly. But... not before someone made screen shots of the error and made up a narrative to go with the pictures.

https://twitter.com/ariehkovler/DDHQ Error  (https://twitter.com/ariehkovler/status/1324035122816012291)

https://twitter.com/DecisionDeskHQ/Data Entry Correction (https://twitter.com/DecisionDeskHQ/status/1324059542343294976)

https://heavy.com/news/fact-check-biden-ballots-michigan/ (https://heavy.com/news/fact-check-biden-ballots-michigan/)
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 04, 2020, 04:09:32 pm
The way these elections are handled is worse than I could ever imagine.

It’s no better than what we see in small dictatorships in central America or in Africa. Claim victory before the voice of electors are counted? Really??? Keeping power against the will of citizens is the very definition of what a dictator is.

I asked here two months ago what people would do if Trump behaved this way. And I was told he would never do such a thing. That I was too anti-Trump.. yeah... right...

Looking at the big picture, strategists in China are looking at their rival in disbelief, how could America go down so fast? How can a President which such disdain for the spirit of the constitution and the rule of law be in contest for re-election?

What example does that give for the youth in the country and the world?

Whoever wins isn’t relevant.

Trump is of course the main culprit. But this isn’t just a person. It’s all those who support him knowing by now full well that he is a cheater and a thief. All these supporters who have been saying with utmost clarity that their fear is so uncontrollable that they prefer a dictator than someone who is going to unite the country.

In my view what these supporters have been saying above all is that they don’t want to be Americans anymore. Because America is a Democracy and the voice of the citizens are all counted to pick the President.

Regards,
Bernard
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 04, 2020, 04:21:48 pm
I asked here two months ago what people would do if Trump behaved this way. And I was told he would never do such a thing. That I was too anti-Trump.. yeah... right...

What? Trump is following the script that everyone expected, I dare say even his supporters. There is no shock or surprise. Let the officials tally up the uncounted votes and see how everything shakes out. Then we will have some recounts and litigation in some jurisdictions, and plenty of demagoguery, and the vote may change or not, and we will move on with whomever is declared the winner. Half the people are going to be happy and half the people are going to be disappointed regardless of who is elected. This is not the end of democracy as we know it. What is your primary source for US political news anyway? Way over dramatic.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 04, 2020, 04:28:43 pm
What? Trump is following the script that everyone expected, I dare say even his supporters. There is no shock or surprise. Let the officials tally up the uncounted votes and see how everything shakes out. Then we will have some recounts and litigation in some jurisdictions, and the vote may change or not, and we will move on. This is not the end of democracy as we know it. What is your primary source for US political news anyway?

Amen Brother.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 04, 2020, 04:31:22 pm
What? Trump is following the script that everyone expected, I dare say even his supporters. There is no shock or surprise. Let the officials tally up the uncounted votes and see how everything shakes out. Then we will have some recounts and litigation in some jurisdictions, and the vote may change or not, and we will move on. This is not the end of democracy as we know it. What is your primary source for US political news anyway?

My viewpoint or information source has nothing to do with it.

You just admitted that I am right that Trump behaves as expected and as his supporters knew he was going to behave, which is as a dictator ignoring the will of Americans.

My point is that Americans willing to give up on their freedom don’t deserve to be Americans.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 04, 2020, 04:44:50 pm
You just admitted that I am right that Trump behaves as expected and as his supporters knew he was going to behave, which is as a dictator ignoring the will of Americans.

He isn't ignoring the will of the people. Hell, the election isn't even over. Millions of votes are yet to be counted. He is just shooting his mouth off. Everyone knows that. If he loses and won't leave the White House, federal law enforcement will go in with a swat team, cuff him and drag his ass out. You way under estimate us.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 04, 2020, 04:50:59 pm
He isn't ignoring the will of the people. Hell, the election isn't even over. Millions of votes are yet to be counted. He is just shooting his mouth off. Everyone knows that. If he loses and won't leave the White House, federal law enforcement will go in with a swat team, cuff him and drag his ass out. You way under estimate us.

I sincerely hope you are right.

But I have heard way too many times « you shouldn’t listen to what Trump says ». Because, as his very supporters say, « we like him because he does what he says ».

The sad reality is that many of them are ok with him to stay in power even if he looses.

And every single one of them should consider applying for North Korean citizenship because they don’t deserve better.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 04, 2020, 04:57:09 pm
The sad reality is that many of them are ok with him to stay in power even if he looses.

And pray tell, how did you arrive at this conclusion? How many is "many"? You have been reading way too many articles from wherever you read articles.  What nonsense.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: John Camp on November 04, 2020, 05:14:22 pm
And pray tell, how did you arrive at this conclusion? How many is many? What nonsense.

I think Bernard might be right.

I don't know if you read The Online Photographer, Mike Johnston's blog which is one of the most intelligent photography blogs on the net, but on Sunday, he wrote a piece about the upcoming election and dealt with what he saw as the major problems with Donald Trump. Mike doesn't deal with politics on his blog, and this was a stark exception, and he didn't allow comments on the piece, but the thing he wrote was really educational. And, it suggests why Bernard may be right -- that people who suffer from narcissistic personality disorder, like Trump, often attract large numbers of people who need a narcissist to tell them what to do and what to think. In other words, they suffer from a related disorder, and that's what gives power to authoritarian leaders down through the ages: they need a messiah.

https://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2020/11/sunday-support-group-vote.html
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 04, 2020, 05:15:48 pm
And pray tell, how did you arrive at this conclusion? How many is "many"? You have been reading way too many articles from wherever you read articles.  What nonsense.

I don’t know how many there are.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: PeterAit on November 04, 2020, 05:35:43 pm
It's 4th November. From now, this thread is the only place at The Luminous Landscape in which political discussion (including discussion of climate change) is permitted: see here (https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=136535.0) for more information.

Those who enter this thread do so at their own risk. I may read it myself, or I may look merely at complaints submitted to the moderators by outraged members who have strayed into it, accidentally or otherwise. I have closed down political discussion here because it was occupying too much of my time; if this thread intrudes similarly, it will not survive.

Jeremy

Perhaps a wise move. But I must point out that climate change IS NOT POLITICS. It's science, and science does no care what you believe.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 04, 2020, 05:56:14 pm
I think Bernard might be right.

I don't know if you read The Online Photographer, Mike Johnston's blog which is one of the most intelligent photography blogs on the net, but on Sunday, he wrote a piece about the upcoming election and dealt with what he saw as the major problems with Donald Trump. Mike doesn't deal with politics on his blog, and this was a stark exception, and he didn't allow comments on the piece, but the thing he wrote was really educational. And, it suggests why Bernard may be right -- that people who suffer from narcissistic personality disorder, like Trump, often attract large numbers of people who need a narcissist to tell them what to do and what to think. In other words, they suffer from a related disorder, and that's what gives power to authoritarian leaders down through the ages: they need a messiah.

Yeah, I read his blog, less so now than before, because it is not really a photography blog any longer.  He writes about his diet, his addiction, his eye surgery, his trees falling down, his interest in audio equipment, his passion for playing pool, etc., so it is a real mixed bag. He seems like a nice enough guy, and I am sure I would have a good time spending an afternoon sitting on his front porch and talking with him, but I can't say I would seek out his advice on anything I can think of, not even about photography.  His post about narcissistic personality disorder mostly mirrors what I have read, but no new insights jumped out at me, not that I am an expert, so I don't know what it brings to the conversation. But for people who might not have read about it before, it could be a helpful introductory primer. Nothing wrong with that.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 04, 2020, 06:06:01 pm
What? Trump is following the script that everyone expected, I dare say even his supporters. There is no shock or surprise.

No surprise. But it is still shocking to see and hear a President of the United States working so hard to undermine democracy.

Let the officials tally up the uncounted votes and see how everything shakes out.

Hopefully that will happen without interference. It's shocking that citizens have to hope for that.

This is not the end of democracy as we know it.

You're probably right. I hope so. But, we may soon see Trump, his toadies in Congress, Barr, and his hardcore cult members stomping all over—if not crossing— the line between democracy and authoritarianism.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 04, 2020, 06:18:27 pm
Latest Trump tweets...

"We have claimed, for Electoral Vote purposes, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania (which won’t allow legal observers) the State of Georgia, and the State of North Carolina, each one of which has a BIG Trump lead. Additionally, we hereby claim the State of Michigan if, in fact, there was a large number of secretly dumped ballots as has been widely reported!"

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/We have claimed, for Electoral Vote purposes (https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1324108200141082624)

And so it begins...
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 04, 2020, 06:21:30 pm
Latest Trump tweets...

"We have claimed, for Electoral Vote purposes, the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania (which won’t allow legal observers) the State of Georgia, and the State of North Carolina, each one of which has a BIG Trump lead. Additionally, we hereby claim the State of Michigan if, in fact, there was a large number of secretly dumped ballots as has been widely reported!"

And so it begins...

Nothing unexpected there. The commie/lib media have called Biden the winner in Michigan. I don't know if Fox News has too. The other three states may be counting for a couple of days. Everyone would do well to take a deep breath and relax. Maybe turn off the TV and read your camera manual or something.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 04, 2020, 06:53:22 pm
Trump has dispatched Rudy Giuliani to Philadelphia. Sounds like the kiss of death to me. Biden can win without Pennsylvania.

Giuliani ‘en route’ to Philadelphia with Trump legal team as ballot battle ramps up

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/giuliani-en-route-to-philadelphia-with-trump-legal-team-as-ballot-battle-ramps-up

Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 04, 2020, 07:00:54 pm
I hope Giuliani is the lead attorney for that legal team. He's proven himself to be a big league bungler.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 04, 2020, 07:38:10 pm
I hope Giuliani is the lead attorney for that legal team. He's proven himself to be a big league bungler.

I am sure Team Trump has an election law expert out of one in the big firms in Philadelphia, who, aided by his colleagues in the litigation group, will be leading the effort. Pennsylvania is as good a place as any to send Giuliani to get him out of the way. It is a short drive from New York. I am dead certain Giuliani is not the one who will be arguing the case before the judge.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 04, 2020, 07:40:22 pm
The Associated Press is the gold standard for calling races with a very conservative approach to their methodology. PBS and NPR use AP results for calling races.

For online updates on election results, I like NPR's website. They have a "Margins" display that visually shows movement for each State as vote tallies are updated. Really nicely done.

https://apps.npr.org/elections20-interactive/#/president (https://apps.npr.org/elections20-interactive/#/president)

For political nerds, Cook Political Reports website shows interesting additional data for each State showing the margin shifts and raw vote shifts as compared to 2016.

https://cookpolitical.com/2020-national-popular-vote-tracker (https://cookpolitical.com/2020-national-popular-vote-tracker?)
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 04, 2020, 07:42:19 pm
The commie/lib media

CNN is a commie media?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 04, 2020, 08:04:54 pm
CNN is a commie media?

Some people around here think so. I am not among them. I use the term jokingly to humor them.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 04, 2020, 08:16:08 pm
Perhaps a wise move. But I must point out that climate change IS NOT POLITICS. It's science, and science does no care what you believe.

Right! And when it gets too hot, we all notice.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Robert Roaldi on November 04, 2020, 10:14:55 pm
But I must point out that climate change IS NOT POLITICS. It's science, and science does no care what you believe.

Just so, but the very next sentence in any discussion is what to do next and that's political so I see Jeremy's point. We've had threads on the topic before, they degenerate quickly so best leave them dead. Or people could just go re-read them!  :)

Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on November 05, 2020, 04:00:05 am
Those states don't count. The only states that count now are Arizona, Michigan, Wisconsin, Nevada and the single-electoral district in Nebraska. Biden leads in all of those.

They counted at the time according to the news I read in Portugal:) This morning looks like the tide is turning and indeed the states you mention may be decisive. Biden has 264 delegates (winning Michigan and Wisconsin, after Arizona) and Trump 214. Nevada has 6 delegates and Biden is ahead by a narrow margin there.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on November 05, 2020, 04:05:42 am
I think Bernard might be right.

I don't know if you read The Online Photographer, Mike Johnston's blog which is one of the most intelligent photography blogs on the net, but on Sunday, he wrote a piece about the upcoming election and dealt with what he saw as the major problems with Donald Trump. Mike doesn't deal with politics on his blog, and this was a stark exception, and he didn't allow comments on the piece, but the thing he wrote was really educational. And, it suggests why Bernard may be right -- that people who suffer from narcissistic personality disorder, like Trump, often attract large numbers of people who need a narcissist to tell them what to do and what to think. In other words, they suffer from a related disorder, and that's what gives power to authoritarian leaders down through the ages: they need a messiah.

https://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2020/11/sunday-support-group-vote.html

I read that one too, quite interesting. Maybe that was what Trump ment when he talked about "herd mentality" instead of "herd immunity"...
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 05, 2020, 07:40:21 am
They counted at the time according to the news I read in Portugal:) This morning looks like the tide is turning and indeed the states you mention may be decisive. Biden has 264 delegates (winning Michigan and Wisconsin, after Arizona) and Trump 214. Nevada has 6 delegates and Biden is ahead by a narrow margin there.

Arizona is not final just yet and Biden holds a decent lead, they are still counting.  Its really Trumps last firewall unless he somehow wins Nevada but thats a long shot, but possible.  Trump takes either and its all Pennsylvania.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 05, 2020, 09:32:27 am
I did something I rarely do. I went over to take a look at Trump's Twitter feed because he his been MIA since his 2:00 am meltdown the other night. I don't know how to copy a tweet and post it here, so I'll just quote it:

"STOP THE COUNT!"

Is this a cry of pain? Is he like a child who skins his knee and asks his mommy to please make it stop hurting? He must be delusional. Nobody is going to stop counting the ballots. This is not some third world dictatorship. Nobody is going to stop counting until the last vote has been tallied. Then if Trump wants to challenge them or a force a recount or whatever, have at it. Maybe he will ultimately prevail. Fine. But stop the count? No way.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Robert Roaldi on November 05, 2020, 09:47:53 am
I did something I rarely do. I went over to take a look at Trump's Twitter feed because he his been MIA since his 2:00 am meltdown the other night. I don't know how to copy a tweet and post it here, so I'll just quote it:

"STOP THE COUNT!"

Is this a cry of pain? Is he like a child who skins his knee and asks his mommy to please make it stop hurting? He must be delusional. Nobody is going to stop counting the ballots. This is not some third world dictatorship. Nobody is going to stop counting until the last vote has been tallied. Then if Trump wants to challenge them or a force a recount or whatever, have at it. Maybe he will ultimately prevail. Fine. But stop the count? No way.

Well, as you've pointed out many times he doesn't seem to have a filter. Be interesting to see how many voters agree with that sentiment though, although you'd think that counting all the votes would pretty much be sacred. I hope so anyway.

Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 05, 2020, 09:48:32 am
I did something I rarely do. I went over to take a look at Trump's Twitter feed because he his been MIA since his 2:00 am meltdown the other night. I don't know how to copy a tweet and post it here, so I'll just quote it:

"STOP THE COUNT!"

Is this a cry of pain? Is he like a child who skins his knee and asks his mommy to please make it stop hurting? He must be delusional. Nobody is going to stop counting the ballots. This is not some third world dictatorship. Nobody is going to stop counting until the last vote has been tallied. Then if Trump wants to challenge them or a force a recount or whatever, have at it. Maybe he will ultimately prevail. Fine. But stop the count? No way.

There are some reported instances where poll watchers from the Rep side were being denied access and I suspect that is what he was talking about. Im not sure, or trying to prevent votes being counted in a time frame in excess of the time allowed by state election law as in Pennsylvania. 

I want him to explore every legal avenue to fight for his votes. Then when those options or a path to victory are exhausted, to concede. Time will tell if that will happen.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 05, 2020, 10:46:39 am
There are some reported instances where poll watchers from the Rep side were being denied access and I suspect that is what he was talking about. Im not sure, or trying to prevent votes being counted in a time frame in excess of the time allowed by state election law as in Pennsylvania. 

I want him to explore every legal avenue to fight for his votes. Then when those options or a path to victory are exhausted, to concede. Time will tell if that will happen.

I think it was one poll watcher who was initially denied entrance but was later admitted. It occurred in Philadelphia, and is why they dispatched Giuliani, for better or worse, up there. I think the issue was whether a poll watcher could go to any vote counting place or had to go the the place he was officially assigned, and the delay in admitting him was caused by getting clarification on what the rule was. At least that is what I read yesterday. Maybe something happened later, or the reporter got the story wrong, or I am misinformed. Of course one incident is one incident too many. I have no problem with Trump exploring every legal avenue available to him.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 05, 2020, 11:08:46 am
I think it was one poll watcher who was initially denied entrance but was later admitted. It occurred in Philadelphia, and is why they dispatched Giuliani, for better or worse, up there. I think the issue was whether a poll watcher could go to any vote counting place or had to go the the place he was officially assigned, and the delay in admitting him was caused by getting clarification on what the rule was. At least that is what I read yesterday. Maybe something happened later, or the reporter got the story wrong, or I am misinformed. Of course one incident is one incident too many. I have no problem with Trump exploring every legal avenue available to him.

There was a big issue on Detroit as well, lots of stories about it some conflicting.  I do like the story of the white van, a Crhysler 300 and a Ferarri all arriving at Cobo Hall ( I know its the old term, but I'm old) at 4 am and unloading boxes of ballots.  I have see video of a guy unloading the white van but no idea what he was was unloading, could have been sacks of McDonalds for all I know.

Just like the state by state pandemic response, we have the same issues at play in elections.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 05, 2020, 11:09:21 am
I read that one too, quite interesting. Maybe that was what Trump ment when he talked about "herd mentality" instead of "herd immunity"...
It's explained clearly here  ;D
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 05, 2020, 12:24:45 pm
I hope you don't mind me changing the subject for just one post, but I wanted to share this link with you. I have been thinking that maybe a photography trip would be a good thing, and I was thinking about going out to Yellowstone. My wife and son took a trip out there a couple of years ago, and really enjoyed themselves. So I thought that might be just the spot until I read this, courtesy of Fox News:

Yellowstone visitor banned for cooking chickens in thermal hot spring

https://www.foxnews.com/great-outdoors/yellowstone-visitor-banned-cooking-chickens-thermal-geyser

Now I am going to have to take a stove, and won't have room in my backpack for my 210mm lens.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 05, 2020, 12:27:57 pm
Trump files new lawsuits. Lawyers are smiling.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 05, 2020, 12:33:58 pm
Trump files new lawsuits. Lawyers are smiling.

Those lawsuits could bankrupt him.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 05, 2020, 12:43:16 pm
Those lawsuits could bankrupt him.
For the 7th time (at least Trump businesses).
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 05, 2020, 12:53:52 pm
Yellowstone visitor banned for cooking chickens in thermal hot spring

https://www.foxnews.com/great-outdoors/yellowstone-visitor-banned-cooking-chickens-thermal-geyser

That was really stupid. Everybody knows that you can cook there only locally shot waterfowl.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 05, 2020, 12:58:54 pm
From Trumps Tweeter feed:

"Big legal win in Pennsylvania!"

As I understand it, the poll watchers on both sides who were 30 feet from the ballot counters are now 6 feet away. It doesn't reduce the number of ballots counted or change the votes on the ballots themselves. I certainly don't have any problem with the holding.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 05, 2020, 01:36:31 pm
Those lawsuits could bankrupt him.

I would assume the funds comes from the RNC
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 05, 2020, 02:13:36 pm
I would assume the funds comes from the RNC

I said it in jest, but since you mentioned RNC, Trump has already used a good chunk of their money on his lawyers.

Quote
Trump has spent nearly $60 million of campaign money on legal bills. Candidates need good lawyering, of course, but this number far outstrips other campaigns’ tabs because the president has drawn on political fundraising to foot the bill for his litigiousness, to pay attorneys to represent him in investigations by House Democrats and Special Counsel Robert Mueller, and to pay for the defense of aides who have been swept into legal inquiries in his various scandals.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/09/how-donald-trump-blew-1-billion-fundraising-lead/616156/
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: John Camp on November 05, 2020, 03:20:04 pm
Nothing unexpected there. The commie/lib media have called Biden the winner in Michigan. I don't know if Fox News has too. The other three states may be counting for a couple of days. Everyone would do well to take a deep breath and relax. Maybe turn off the TV and read your camera manual or something.

Wait! My camera has a manual?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 05, 2020, 03:36:37 pm
Wait! My camera has a manual?

I am sure I have my camera manual somewhere. As I remember, it was the size of a pad of post-it notes, and if you read it one way it is in English, and if you read it the other way it is in some other language, perhaps Spanish or Japanese or something. Although I am pretty sure I read the whole thing once, about four or five years ago, I wouldn't swear to it. Of course, it is completely out of date, because there have been half a dozen firmware updates. But even reading an out-of-date camera manual in a language you do not speak is probably more productive than watching the election returns on TV. Your watching the coverage on TV doesn't make anything go faster, but you knew that.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JoeKitchen on November 05, 2020, 04:04:15 pm
Not going to lie, I did not think FL could out do PA on anything. 

Welp, it seems like FL has the best damn counters in the world. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 05, 2020, 04:13:05 pm
Not going to lie, I did not think FL could out do PA on anything. 

Welp, it seems like FL has the best damn counters in the world.

What is the rationale for not starting to count the mail-in ballots until election day?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JoeKitchen on November 05, 2020, 04:16:08 pm
What is the rationale for not starting to count the mail-in ballots until election day?

I have no clue. 

My best guess, Republicans felt doing so would allow Dems to ballot harvest to make up the difference.  No reason you can't tabulate the vote while keeping the count secret until polls close. 

What is this, 1788?  Well, we all knew Washington was a shoo in, so is it 1796? 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 05, 2020, 04:20:15 pm
I think I saw that Pennsylvania may be able to finish counting the mail-in ballots tonight. I'll believe it when I see it. I am glad they got the poll watcher distance thing squared away. One less thing to litigate later.

Anyone notice that new COVID cases went over 100,000 yesterday. Deaths at 1,116. Haven't seen the demographic data.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JoeKitchen on November 05, 2020, 04:32:40 pm
Not going to lie though, regardless of who gets the big prize, I am pretty happy about the results. 

It is almost certainly the case Republicans will have a 52 seat majority in the Senate, and I was not expecting them to pick up seats in the House.  This will be the first time since 1887 that a Dem would be sworn in without his party controlling congress.  This means the entire Biden agenda is dead on arrival.  No tax hikes or a public option or a Green New Deal or increase in regulations or destroying Charter Schools or crazy marxists in cabinet positions.  Warren and Sanders can kiss their administration posts good bye.  Then, regardless of who won, I was certain (and still am) the SCOTUS would bring down a reckoning on executive orders given the brand new make-up.  No ruling by a pen and phone anymore. 

To perform damage control from Thomas, Roberts will more then likely become a consistent conservative vote so he can decide who writes the opinion. 

Republicans won big in state races in many district Dems just assumed would be theirs forever, meaning they will be in charge of the redistricting next year, cementing another 10 years. 

Progressivism is dead!  Need proof, exit polling shows an increase in support of Trump and Republicans under every demographic groups except White males after a relentless mantra of Republicans = racists for four years.  Fortunately for us, the left does not seem to want to give up on that losing message.  Conservatives are not only talking about policy, but now starting to discuss culture.  And, the real prize, CA voted down bringing back affirmative action. 

Last, and who knows if this will happen, but given the looses in the House, Pelosi may be voted out of her speakership.  That would be the icing on the cake. 

So, perhaps a fully ineffectual old grandpa President Biden may not be a bad thing. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JoeKitchen on November 05, 2020, 04:35:11 pm
I think I saw that Pennsylvania may be able to finish counting the mail-in ballots tonight. I'll believe it when I see it. I am glad they got the poll watcher distance thing squared away. One less thing to litigate later.

Anyone notice that new COVID cases went over 100,000 yesterday. Deaths at 1,116. Haven't seen the demographic data.

It's amazing, I have not see a single headline on Covid since Monday night.  It's almost like the entire media suddenly decided it was no longer an issue, weird. 

I'm guessing the schools will be re-opening soon too. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 05, 2020, 04:35:44 pm
What is the rationale for not starting to count the mail-in ballots until election day?
IMHO, none. But each state and their legislation makes their own decisions. In a way, that independence is a states and their county's strengh. We need to be patient and respect these decisions and just allow each and every vote be counted. The time this takes is moot. Counting each vote is a fundamental foundation of our democracy.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 05, 2020, 04:41:01 pm
It's amazing, I have not see a single headline on Covid since Monday night. 
Maybe you need to look elsewhere or harder. Three examples, many more are easy to find:
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 05, 2020, 05:21:29 pm
Yeah, we gotta get past the election and get a leader in the USA to address:

The United States reported its highest number of new coronavirus infections in a single day -- 102,831 on Wednesday, according to data from Johns Hopkins University.
And it's not just due to more testing. New cases have increased 21% over the past week, according to Johns Hopkins.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 05, 2020, 05:24:52 pm
118,204 new cases and 1,125 deaths on November 5 in USA. As Trump keeps telling his gullible fans, he is rounding the corner on the virus.
Meanwhile, Trump's vote leads in Georgia and Pennsylvania are steadily shrinking. On Friday, the leads might be on Biden's side.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 05, 2020, 05:30:46 pm
I'm guessing the schools will be re-opening soon too.

Has your governor or education secretary indicated that? You mentioned charter schools in another post. Do you have children?

Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: John Camp on November 05, 2020, 06:36:03 pm
<,snip> 

It is almost certainly the case Republicans will have a 52 seat majority in the Senate, and I was not expecting them to pick up seats in the House.  This will be the first time since 1887 that a Dem would be sworn in without his party controlling congress.  This means the entire Biden agenda is dead on arrival.  No tax hikes or a public option or a Green New Deal or increase in regulations or destroying Charter Schools or crazy marxists in cabinet positions.  Warren and Sanders can kiss their administration posts good bye.  Then, regardless of who won, I was certain (and still am) the SCOTUS would bring down a reckoning on executive orders given the brand new make-up.  No ruling by a pen and phone anymore. 

Republicans won big in state races in many district Dems just assumed would be theirs forever, meaning they will be in charge of the redistricting next year, cementing another 10 years. 

Progressivism is dead!  Need proof, exit polling shows an increase in support of Trump and Republicans under every demographic groups except White males after a relentless mantra of Republicans = racists for four years.  Fortunately for us, the left does not seem to want to give up on that losing message.  Conservatives are not only talking about policy, but now starting to discuss culture.  And, the real prize, CA voted down bringing back affirmative action. 

Last, and who knows if this will happen, but given the looses in the House, Pelosi may be voted out of her speakership.  That would be the icing on the cake. 


The losses in the House are not a result of Republicans doing better, but the Democrats having done so well four years ago -- what happened, is that the Republicans took back seats that should never have been won by Democrats. Here in New Mexico, a very conservative Congresswoman who lost her seat to a Democrat two years ago, won it back, in a conservative district. As expected.

The Democratic agenda isn't exactly dead -- remember, Trump has been running things for two years with a Democratic House, and he still did a lot of (horrific) things. Biden can run things the same way, but, probably better, because he's a lot smarter and much more tuned in to the Deep State. So those things that the President can do on his own, which is a lot, will still be done. What I don't think we will see is a huge stimulus bill, which means a lot of Americans are going to be seriously hurting, and probably means a Democratic Senate in two years, under President Harris. (I'm going with my wife, who doesn't believe that Biden will make it for four years.) I agree that there won't be any big tax hike. I also think that Biden will get most of his cabinet appointments through the Senate, because money talks and bullshit walks -- and if you're a Republican looking at the money dished out by the Administration, they're not likely to be too happy to vote against the guy who administrates the bucks.

Pelosi will be removed from her speakership only when her lifeless body is rolled out of the House. Even then, there may be a question.

Whether the Senate stays Republican will be determined by Georgia in January.


 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 05, 2020, 06:40:05 pm
Whether the Senate stays Republican will be determined by Georgia in January.
Exactly, and this is new too:
 Runoff Senate elections in Georgia could determine balance of the Senate
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/georgia-senate-runoff-elections-perdue-ossoff-leoffler-warnock-balance-of-power/
It ain't over till all the votes get counted (as they should).
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 05, 2020, 07:05:11 pm
Man I just listened to part of Trumps speach and I can firmly tell my US friends...if I was a citizen of your country...I'd be red faced and ashamed of my leader. What a bunch of BS dribbling from his mouth...embarrassing.

He's a rat trapped in a corner with his buddies jumping ship. Hope the Republican Party is above all this and grab the a-home by his collar and throw him into the streets.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 05, 2020, 07:09:19 pm
Man I just listened to part of Trumps speach and I can firmly tell my US friends...if I was a citizen of your country...I'd be red faced and ashamed of my leader. What a bunch of BS dribbling from his mouth...embarrassing.

He's a rat trapped in a corner with his buddies jumping ship. Hope the Republican Party is above all this and grab the a-home by his collar and throw him into the streets.
Shocking, sad, expected. Yes, red faced and worse. He is an insane rat.  :'(
It IS time for the Republican party to grow a pair and make this stop for the good of the USA.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JoeKitchen on November 05, 2020, 07:31:56 pm
Man I just listened to part of Trumps speach and I can firmly tell my US friends...if I was a citizen of your country...I'd be red faced and ashamed of my leader. What a bunch of BS dribbling from his mouth...embarrassing.



Please explain to me how any of this is new? 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 05, 2020, 07:42:11 pm
Please explain to me how any of this is new?

Perhaps he doesn't see and hear it every day as we do, and so is surprised by the behavior.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 05, 2020, 07:44:49 pm
Please explain to me how any of this is new?

Nothing new, just thought the guy had some balls and would leave with his head high. Instead I envision the Republican Party booting him out...Trump being dragged out of the White House in January...all on live TV around the world.

What I have my popcorn ready for is Trump as a civilian still needing to account for his rape charges and his tax evasion. Love to see the rat squeal as the screws slowly turn tighter. Maybe they can cleanup Al Capone's cell at Alcarteaz for Trump.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 05, 2020, 07:46:18 pm
Perhaps he doesn't see and hear it every day as we do, and so is surprised by the behavior.

Oh I see enough...I question how anyone here on LuLu could ever support this idiot.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JoeKitchen on November 05, 2020, 07:49:49 pm
The losses in the House are not a result of Republicans doing better, but the Democrats having done so well four years ago -- what happened, is that the Republicans took back seats that should never have been won by Democrats. Here in New Mexico, a very conservative Congresswoman who lost her seat to a Democrat two years ago, won it back, in a conservative district. As expected.

The Democratic agenda isn't exactly dead -- remember, Trump has been running things for two years with a Democratic House, and he still did a lot of (horrific) things. Biden can run things the same way, but, probably better, because he's a lot smarter and much more tuned in to the Deep State. So those things that the President can do on his own, which is a lot, will still be done. What I don't think we will see is a huge stimulus bill, which means a lot of Americans are going to be seriously hurting, and probably means a Democratic Senate in two years, under President Harris. (I'm going with my wife, who doesn't believe that Biden will make it for four years.) I agree that there won't be any big tax hike. I also think that Biden will get most of his cabinet appointments through the Senate, because money talks and bullshit walks -- and if you're a Republican looking at the money dished out by the Administration, they're not likely to be too happy to vote against the guy who administrates the bucks.

Pelosi will be removed from her speakership only when her lifeless body is rolled out of the House. Even then, there may be a question.

Whether the Senate stays Republican will be determined by Georgia in January.

Please, stop John.  Biden smarter?  Who are you trying to convince, me or you?  Biden graduated in the half that makes the upper half possible. 

This is not to say Trump is an Einstein, but Biden smart.   ;D ;D ;D  The only reason Biden lasted so long is because he in the senator of a very small state without any competition.  If he was in a, even just slightly, larger state, he would have been primaried decades ago. But anyway ...

This is how I think it is going to work out.  Perdue will keep his seat and I feel pretty confident so will Louffler.  Biden will then come in as the first Dem since 1888 without a majority in both houses.  His agenda will be finished, but he will at first fall right back into being a total partisan. 

Let's face, the man who invented borking and told black churches that Romney (the most vanilla politician in history) was going to enslave them again is no great uniter.  He is not going to try and work with McConnell and will instead work with Schumer.  Unfortunately Schumer is fearful of a primary contest with AOC, so he is going to go far left.  Pelosi will probably keep her speakership, but I doubt she will learn any lessons and will continue to lead from the left.  Meanwhile though, it is starting to show, breaks are forming in the Dem party, creating a similar devision as the Tea Party did for the Republicans in 2010. 

However, unlike in 2010, they will not have a opposing president they can hide the devision behind.  It will be out in the open for the country to see, and will keep them and Biden from getting anything done.  Meanwhile, the loudest voices in the party will continue to insist all republicans are racists and push identifiy politics (you are already seeing this, apparently Cubans are not latinos, but white nationalists now) even though this was obviously rejected by minorities. 

Then 2022 will come along, and with the advantage the Senate Republicans have insofar as who is defending their seats, the republicans will increase their majority.  I would also predict the house will also be lost, especially given the fact that the state republicans will have control over the redistricting next year. 

Maybe by 2024 the Dems will have given up on identity politics, but I think Harris will end being the nominee.  Nobody likes Harris; she will be easy to defeat. 

I am just think of who the republicans should run in 2024.  Kristi Noem maybe.  I am also partial to Crenshaw, because lets face it, there ain't nothing more bad ass then an ex-Navy seal president with an eye-patch. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 05, 2020, 07:55:13 pm
Man I just listened to part of Trumps speach and I can firmly tell my US friends...if I was a citizen of your country...I'd be red faced and ashamed of my leader. What a bunch of BS dribbling from his mouth...embarrassing.

He's a rat trapped in a corner with his buddies jumping ship. Hope the Republican Party is above all this and grab the a-home by his collar and throw him into the streets.

If he’s got a case, let him make it. If he can’t it’s over and ... then...he can concede. 

Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 05, 2020, 07:56:22 pm
I am glad you have everything all figured out. You might want to run that off and tape it to your refrigerator door. Check it periodically to see how you are doing.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 05, 2020, 07:58:58 pm
Wonder if Biden needed to pay someone to take his SATs. Trump did. Smart...
How's Bidens bone spurs?  :D :
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 05, 2020, 07:59:46 pm
If he’s got a case, let him make it. If he can’t it’s over and ... then...he can concede.

I wouldn't hold my breath on that concession thing.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 05, 2020, 07:59:55 pm
If he’s got a case, let him make it. If he can’t it’s over and ... then...he can concede.

Right...but do your homework with some proof before going on nationwide ( worldwide ) TV and make your accusations. You just look like an idiot spouting at the mouth without anything to back it up.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JoeKitchen on November 05, 2020, 08:15:47 pm
Wonder if Biden needed to pay someone to take his SATs. Trump did. Smart...
How's Bidens bone spurs?  :D :

You know that story has been discredited, well the SAT one. 

Now insofar as the Vietnam war, were you a supporter of the war?  Do you think we should have been in it?  Because I find it intellectually disingenuous for someone who does not think we should have fought in it, especially knowing and probably supporting the 1000s of defectors who did so to avoid the war, criticizing someone who tried to get out of it as well. 

But anyway, Biden also sought and received multiple draft deferments. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JoeKitchen on November 05, 2020, 08:18:47 pm
I am glad you have everything all figured out. You might want to run that off and tape it to your refrigerator door. Check it periodically to see how you are doing.

I try my best.

But all one needs to do is observed the severe depression amongst Dems right now.  They are not happy by any stretch, which they should be, since it was just about getting rid of Trump, right?  ???

The Dems made a major miscalculation in that they thought this election would be like 2018.  People would vote against Trump by voting against Republicans.  But since Trump was on the ballot, they could actually vote against him, and then they did not have the reason to vote against republicans.  There are reports of many split ballots; people voting for Biden and then red down the ballot. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 05, 2020, 08:19:15 pm
Earlier today I described Trump's big win in the Pennsylvania courts:

Quote
As I understand it, the poll watchers on both sides who were 30 feet from the ballot counters are now 6 feet away. It doesn't reduce the number of ballots counted or change the votes on the ballots themselves. I certainly don't have any problem with the holding.

The Pennsylvania Attorney General just described the judge's decision. Turns out the poll watchers weren't 30 feet away; they were 10 feet away. So now they are 6 feet away. So 4 feet closer. I wonder what the legal fees were to achieve that victory. But Trump had every right to bring the case; no question about it.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 05, 2020, 08:19:50 pm
Here is his case: No evidence of wide spread voter fraud. He had a commission created a few years ago to find it (cause he was so sure about it in 2016 but won), it folded because again, no evidence.
Here is his case:
1. Mail in voting is bad and fraudulent; unless the vote is for Trump (he and wife of course voted by mail this year).
2. If in the states he is ahead, keep counting all the votes.
3. If in the states he is behind, stop counting the votes. All those votes (for Biden) are fraudulent.
4. States that allow votes to be collected after election day (and some do), are fraud despite its the law. But in his mind, the losers and suckers in the military who vote by mail in states that allow this, they don't count.
It is absurd and any American who actually buys into this nonsense needs to study how the history of our elections for 240 years has been conducted.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 05, 2020, 08:25:05 pm
I wouldn't hold my breath on that concession thing.

I have no idea what he will do, but I hope he goes out with dignity. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 05, 2020, 08:27:39 pm
Here is his case: No evidence of wide spread voter fraud. He had a commission created a few years ago to find it (cause he was so sure about it in 2016 but won), it folded because again, no evidence.
Here is his case:
1. Mail in voting is bad and fraudulent; unless the vote is for Trump (he and wife of course voted by mail this year).
2. If in the states he is ahead, keep counting all the votes.
3. If in the states he is behind, stop counting the votes. All those votes (for Biden) are fraudulent.
4. States that allow votes to be collected after election day (and some do), are fraud despite its the law. But in his mind, the losers and suckers in the military who vote by mail in states that allow this, they don't count.
It is absurd and any American who actually buys into this nonsense needs to study how the history of our elections for 240 years has been conducted.

I’m simply amazed you have all of this inside information from the Trump team.  Oh wait, it’s nothing but bluster on your part.  Got it.  Please keep up the amazing work.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 05, 2020, 08:30:46 pm
I’m simply amazed you have all of this inside information from the Trump team.  Oh wait, it’s nothing but bluster on your part.  Got it.  Please keep up the amazing work.
No inside information; Trump has said it in plain sight for months.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Rt6nCZRKChE
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 05, 2020, 08:30:52 pm
Right...but do your homework with some proof before going on nationwide ( worldwide ) TV and make your accusations. You just look like an idiot spouting at the mouth without anything to back it up.

Again, you have no idea what evidence he has and nor do I.  I suspect once the counting is complete he will proceed.  Until then we wait and see.  Clearly you must have the ability wait and see what happens.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 05, 2020, 08:32:01 pm
I have no idea what he will do, but I hope he goes out with dignity.
What has he done with dignity?
Albert Einstein- "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different result”
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 05, 2020, 08:34:06 pm
Again, you have no idea what evidence he has and nor do I.  I suspect once the counting is complete he will proceed.  Until then we wait and see.  Clearly you must have the ability wait and see what happens.
Yes, I've seen what HAS happened. It is easy once you open your eyes.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 05, 2020, 08:35:12 pm
But all one needs to do is observed the severe depression amongst Dems right now.  They are not happy by any stretch, which they should be, since it was just about getting rid of Trump, right?  ???

Out of the roughly 73,500,000 people who voted for Biden, exactly how many have you observed with severe depression?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 05, 2020, 08:44:42 pm
Yes, I've seen what HAS happened. It is easy once you open your eyes.

I have seen what has happened as well and in my opinion it’s been an amazing 3.5 years   Take away the virus and we would not be having this conversation   Trump has every right to object and take legal action if he chooses.  You have a problem with this?  After all you side spent 3 years trying to undo an election. 

Why not just sit down, take a deep breath and see what happens as the final vote count and any legal action takes place.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 05, 2020, 08:47:17 pm
What has he done with dignity?
Albert Einstein- "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different result”

That’s a good question.  I’m sure I could find some examples if I decided to try.   Let’s be clear here.  I would prefer Trump  to President Harris any day, but I don’t believe Trump will win,  and I haven’t for a few weeks now. But he has his rights and I expect him to fight for them. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 05, 2020, 08:53:37 pm
Take away the virus and we would not be having this conversation 
We would, but the way he handled the virus (and of course you'll disagree) was awful.
Think about this with an ounce of critical thinking: the US has 4 percent of the worlds population and about 23% of the worlds deaths from Covid. Now look at how say Canada did. Same virus over the entire planet. Now he's the head of the US and we've lost 230 thousand Americans. Remember when he said (after about 13 infections): it's going to disappear and "we have this under control" and recently (a massive lie)" it's rounding the corner" (to examine how many Americans got infected this week). A massive lie. Even after he knew and admitted to Woodword, how deadly it was. And let's not forget, just this month, how many rallies he held, breaking state and local laws for the gathering large groups (this from the law and order president?), exposing those who for whatever reason, love him, to the the virus. Deliberate malpractice.
But I'm not trying to convince you, that's not possible nor useful.
Yes, we'll see what happens, you can (try to) come back here and tell us all the proof he provides and how well his cases go in court. Like the last time he setup a commission on voter fraud.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 05, 2020, 08:54:37 pm
I’m sure I could find some examples if I decided to try. 
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan
You sir, have none. Enough said, Adiós.

Quote
That’s a good question.
"When someone says, That's a good question. You can be sure it's a lot better than the answer you're going to get". -Source Unknown
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 05, 2020, 09:09:57 pm
You know that story has been discredited, well the SAT one.

I don't know how you would prove it, short of the hired test taker confessing, and even then Trump would just say the guy was lying. I don't know how you would disprove it at all. Maybe that's why you said discredit. I think someone guessed some guy took the test, and that guy denied it. Lying, not lying? Maybe they guessed wrong and it was someone else. Who knows? Who cares?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 05, 2020, 09:10:50 pm
We would, but the way he handled the virus (and of course you'll disagree) was awful.
Think about this with an ounce of critical thinking: the US has 4 percent of the worlds population and about 23% of the worlds deaths from Covid. Now look at how say Canada did. Same virus over the entire planet. Now he's the head of the US and we've lost 230 thousand Americans. Remember when he said (after about 13 infections): it's going to disappear and "we have this under control" and recently (a massive lie)" it's rounding the corner" (to examine how many Americans got infected this week). A massive lie. Even after he knew and admitted to Woodword, how deadly it was. And let's not forget, just this month, how many rallies he held, breaking state and local laws for the gathering large groups (this from the law and order president?), exposing those who for whatever reason, love him, to the the virus. Deliberate malpractice.
But I'm not trying to convince you, that's not possible nor useful.
Yes, we'll see what happens, you can (try to) come back here and tell us all the proof he provides and how well his cases go in court. Like the last time he setup a commission on voter fraud.

Much like the issues we have with differing voting rules from state by state because of States Rights, the same situation exists with COVID. 

Over the last few months I’ve laid out my case as to why the US is performing as it is.  I’m not going to repeat it now as it would not change your mind nor would it be helpful.  You believe COVID was poorly handled by Trump I believe Biden will make the overall situation worse, even though like Trump, there is little his position will allow him to do.

Yes Trump was present at a number of large and peaceful protests all over the country.  Nothing really different than the large and  “mostly” peaceful protests that occurred all over the country this year. 


Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 05, 2020, 09:11:59 pm
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan
You sir, have none. Enough said, Adiós.
"When someone says, That's a good question. You can be sure it's a lot better than the answer you're going to get". -Source Unknown

Bye bye Andrew. SOP
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Robert Roaldi on November 05, 2020, 09:19:28 pm
I didn't listen to Trump's speech nor could I muster the energy to read the entire article I saw about the speech, but it sounded like he was calling into question the electoral process. Isn't that kind of a serious charge? The thing to consider is, would he be saying that if he had won? I mean, if the electoral process was really flawed, then it would be flawed regardless of who won, wouldn't it? It makes no sense that it be flawed if Biden wins but is perfectly ok if Trump wins. Who would accept that argument as credible?

I see that there are already headlines (https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/524663-mulvaney-says-he-absolutely-expects-trump-to-run-again-in-2024-if-he-loses (https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/524663-mulvaney-says-he-absolutely-expects-trump-to-run-again-in-2024-if-he-loses)) about Trump running in 2024, but I didn't read past the headline because I don't care. There was another headline about Don Jr. tearing a strip out of 2024 hopefuls about something (https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/524708-trump-jr-calls-out-2024-gop-hopefuls-for-lack-of-action-amid-vote-counting (https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/524708-trump-jr-calls-out-2024-gop-hopefuls-for-lack-of-action-amid-vote-counting). I didn't read that one either because I care even less about that. My point is that the US electoral system is one hell of an industry. This election period isn't over yet, and they're already out there marketing the next one.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 05, 2020, 09:23:00 pm
Much like the issues we have with differing voting rules from state by state because of States Rights, the same situation exists with COVID. 
With that 'logic' if I can be so kind, we don't need Trump or anyone in the Federal Government. And it's another lame excuse of Trump for not doing his job, lack of leadership. He doesn't give a shit about any state that isn't in his column, as we are seeing tonight (if it's a state where he's ahead, they are great, if not, they are democratic cheaters).
You have zero excuses to shield Trump from not doing his job, based on the population of this country and the number of dead, compared to the rest of the world. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 05, 2020, 09:23:57 pm
I didn't listen to Trump's speech nor could I muster the energy to read the entire article I saw about the speech, but it sounded like he was calling into question the electoral process. Isn't that kind of a serious charge? The thing to consider is, would he be saying that if he had won? I mean, if the electoral process was really flawed, then it would be flawed regardless of who won, wouldn't it? It makes no sense that it be flawed if Biden wins but is perfectly ok if Trump wins. Who would accept that argument as credible?

I see that there are already headlines (https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/524663-mulvaney-says-he-absolutely-expects-trump-to-run-again-in-2024-if-he-loses (https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/524663-mulvaney-says-he-absolutely-expects-trump-to-run-again-in-2024-if-he-loses)) about Trump running in 2024, but I didn't read past the headline because I don't care. There was another headline about Don Jr. tearing a strip out of 2024 hopefuls about something (https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/524708-trump-jr-calls-out-2024-gop-hopefuls-for-lack-of-action-amid-vote-counting (https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/524708-trump-jr-calls-out-2024-gop-hopefuls-for-lack-of-action-amid-vote-counting). I didn't read that one either because I care even less about that. My point is that the US electoral system is one hell of an industry. This election period isn't over yet, and they're already out there marketing the next one.

I wonder if Trump will be out of jail by 2024.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 05, 2020, 09:25:30 pm
I didn't listen to Trump's speech nor could I muster the energy to read the entire article I saw about the speech, but it sounded like he was calling into question the electoral process.
Exactly.
Quote
Isn't that kind of a serious charge?
We'll see if the republican leaders feel that way or not. Some Americans think it's very serious.
Quote
The thing to consider is, would he be saying that if he had won? I mean, if the electoral process was really flawed, then it would be flawed regardless of who won, wouldn't it?
Again, exactly. It's rigged if and only if he loses but not if he wins. He actually said that; no one has to make it up or misinterpret what he actually said.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 05, 2020, 09:36:45 pm
With that 'logic' if I can be so kind, we don't need Trump or anyone in the Federal Government. And it's another lame excuse of Trump for not doing his job, lack of leadership. He doesn't give a shit about any state that isn't in his column, as we are seeing tonight (if it's a state where he's ahead, they are great, if not, they are democratic cheaters).
You have zero excuses to shield Trump from not doing his job, based on the population of this country and the number of dead, compared to the rest of the world.

Wow, back again?  The logic is solid because that’s how our system works, like it or not.  This ground has been covered over and over again Andrew, and if you missed it and are not up to speed on the conversations on this forum, that’s your problem, not mine. 

Yea, Trump didn’t “give a shit “ about NY and CA when this pandemic started.  Sheesh.

Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: James Clark on November 05, 2020, 10:46:25 pm
So here’s where we are. Conservative batshit radio guy Mark Levin is openly advocating for the PA legislature to disregard the state’s lawfully established method for selecting electors and submit a Trump-supporting slate instead, and Trump Jr is retweeting it. Meanwhile, without offering evidence, the Trumpiest people (think Cruz, Jim Jordan, Lindsey Graham) are going all in on this fraud thing and essentially calling the election illegitimate.  If this starts getting traction, we’ve got problems.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 05, 2020, 10:50:59 pm
What you report is so off the charts it's insulting to batshit.  ;)
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: James Clark on November 05, 2020, 10:53:38 pm
What you report is so off the charts it's insulting to batshit.  ;)

You’re right, of course.   Especially after bats have had such a bad year and all, what with COVID and stuff. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 05, 2020, 11:00:41 pm
This is IMHO a good yet sad summary of what we heard today:

For the first time in modern American history an incumbent has insisted that the apparent results of a presidential election should be discounted. He has done so on the basis of inchoate feelings rather than the sort of hard evidence that would be admissible in any court. For all that, it is hard to escape the feeling that roughly half of the country agrees with him.
—Matthew Walther
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: James Clark on November 05, 2020, 11:13:54 pm
Yeah :(.  To clarify my earlier comment before some yahoo chimes in, it’s correct that the Constitution gives state legislatures the power to decide how electors are chosen.  In PA as per their legislature it’s been the law since the 30s that electors are chosen by the people via the vote.  Only question is whether Levin is treasonous, or merely stupid.

That said, I don’t think half the country agrees. I even doubt anywhere near half of Trump supporters agree, but my concern is that the loud voices are pushing it...
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: James Clark on November 06, 2020, 12:06:19 am
And Gingrich is on Hannity saying Barr should go arrest poll workers in PA.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 06, 2020, 04:30:55 am
Sometimes, humor best describes the reality. Or, as the Russian saying goes: “In every joke, there is a bit of a joke.”
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on November 06, 2020, 04:42:30 am
Please explain to me how any of this is new?

It is new, from the perspective of the president lying without any shame during the presidential election process and vote counting process.

Itis new, from the perspective of several TVs, including Fox, interrupting the broadcast of such a sad performance.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on November 06, 2020, 04:48:35 am
I have no idea what he will do, but I hope he goes out with dignity.

Dignity is a personality trait he never had. He will go away doing a Calimero number, pretending to be a victim of fraud.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on November 06, 2020, 04:50:20 am
Again, you have no idea what evidence he has and nor do I.  I suspect once the counting is complete he will proceed.  Until then we wait and see.  Clearly you must have the ability wait and see what happens.

Well, Trump should have that ability too, right? Thus far, he keeps making bold statements, but zero evidence.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on November 06, 2020, 04:52:22 am
I have seen what has happened as well and in my opinion it’s been an amazing 3.5 years   Take away the virus and we would not be having this conversation   Trump has every right to object and take legal action if he chooses.  You have a problem with this?  After all you side spent 3 years trying to undo an election. 

Why not just sit down, take a deep breath and see what happens as the final vote count and any legal action takes place.

You mean the Chinese virus?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JoeKitchen on November 06, 2020, 07:01:50 am
Out of the roughly 73,500,000 people who voted for Biden, exactly how many have you observed with severe depression?

The entirety of the central wing of the Dems. 

Dem caucus erupts as members say party's leftward drift hurt moderates in election (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/dem-caucus-clash-too-progressive)

Biden may have won, but the Dems lost big time.  Any time you lose an election year ending in "0" it's bad since your opposing party will control the re-districting.  The Dems lost at least 8 seats in the house (something I did not think was going to happen) and many of the states. 

Minorities turned out in record for Trump, meaning the days of identity politics is over and great threatens Dems control.  Dems rely on minorities and blacks for power; the black vote has been consistently growing in support of Republicans since Romney ran. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JoeKitchen on November 06, 2020, 07:03:04 am
I don't know how you would prove it, short of the hired test taker confessing, and even then Trump would just say the guy was lying. I don't know how you would disprove it at all. Maybe that's why you said discredit. I think someone guessed some guy took the test, and that guy denied it. Lying, not lying? Maybe they guessed wrong and it was someone else. Who knows? Who cares?

The supposed test taker the Dems claim did it was not in the same grade as Trump and they did not meet until college. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 08:46:27 am
So here’s where we are. Conservative batshit radio guy Mark Levin is openly advocating for the PA legislature to disregard the state’s lawfully established method for selecting electors and submit a Trump-supporting slate instead, and Trump Jr is retweeting it. Meanwhile, without offering evidence, the Trumpiest people (think Cruz, Jim Jordan, Lindsey Graham) are going all in on this fraud thing and essentially calling the election illegitimate.  If this starts getting traction, we’ve got problems.

Now that Georgia is gone for Trump I believe that any PA gambit is worthless.  The election is over, except for the recounts which will happen I think and nothing will change.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 08:49:20 am
And Gingrich is on Hannity saying Barr should go arrest poll workers in PA.

Election bosses in PA were worthless and the judges who made new election law were worthlessas well.  Some of the actions might be ciminal. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 08:50:03 am
You mean the Chinese virus?

Yep...
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 08:51:29 am
Well, Trump should have that ability too, right? Thus far, he keeps making bold statements, but zero evidence.

If he has evidence he will produce it and files caases or not and this will end.  We wait and see. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 08:58:34 am
It is new, from the perspective of the president lying without any shame during the presidential election process and vote counting process.

Itis new, from the perspective of several TVs, including Fox, interrupting the broadcast of such a sad performance.

We have never had an election quite like this in modern history with election laws being made seemingly on the fly by the courts and in many instances contrary to the election laws passed by the state legislatures.  Not to mention some states simply flooding their states with unrequested ballots.  Like it or not that IS an invitation to voter fraud.  It remains to be seen if it actually happened but finding it is really difficult.

I wonder what the state of the country would be if the tables were flipped right now?  There is a reason Americans cities boarded up their windows  prior to this election and it was not becase of Trump voters.  Heck Hillary was still claiming just a week or so ago that Trunp beat her by fraud. 

Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Manoli on November 06, 2020, 09:01:44 am
Trump: We're hearing stories that are horror stories. ... We think there is going to be a lot of litigation because we have so much evidence and so much proof.'

At least seven television networks including ABC, CBS, NBC and MSNBC, cut away from Trump's White House address Of his main complaints, that counting spilled over past Election Day, is meritless. No presidential election has had all the votes counted the same day, and there is no law or even expectation that that should be the case. The surge in mailed ballots and the high turnout have made the process slower than usual in some, but not all, cases.

The right-wing Heritage Foundation, after examining 36 years of mail-in ballots, found only 1,285 cases of voter fraud - out of nearly two billion votes cast, a rate of .0000007 percent.  I'm told that's about the same probability as being hit by an asteroid.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 06, 2020, 09:18:08 am
The entirety of the central wing of the Dems. 

Dem caucus erupts as members say party's leftward drift hurt moderates in election (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/dem-caucus-clash-too-progressive)

From your link:

"Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee Chair Cheri Bustos, D-Ill., said she and others were "furious.""

I don't know how much you know about severe depression, but people who suffer from severe depression are mentally and physically incapable of being furious. A caucus of severely depressed individuals is incapable of erupting. The article describes people that are mad not sad.

The rest of your post is just noise. Don't read an article and just blurt out the first thought that pops into your head. Slow down and think before you post.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 09:22:44 am
Trump: We're hearing stories that are horror stories. ... We think there is going to be a lot of litigation because we have so much evidence and so much proof.'

At least seven television networks including ABC, CBS, NBC and MSNBC, cut away from Trump's White House address Of his main complaints, that counting spilled over past Election Day, is meritless. No presidential election has had all the votes counted the same day, and there is no law or even expectation that that should be the case. The surge in mailed ballots and the high turnout have made the process slower than usual in some, but not all, cases.

The right-wing Heritage Foundation, after examining 36 years of mail-in ballots, found only 1,285 cases of voter fraud - out of nearly two billion votes cast, a rate of .0000007 percent.  I'm told that's about the same probability as being hit by an asteroid.

And amazingly Florida finished its count with minimal fuss and the vast majority did not take days and days.  Did fraud take place this time around?  I'm sure some did and it will never be found.  We have video evidence of votes begin sold in Minnesota.  Postal employees saying they will provide handfuls of ballots etc.  Ballots and ballot  requests found in the trash, vote counting without party monitors. Lasws being made by judges instead of the legislature.  All of this is vote fraud, at least in my book.

Did this change the election?  Perhaps, but enough to change the result substantially?  That I dont know, and we may never know.  Sometimes people cheat. 

Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 09:38:25 am
Trump: We're hearing stories that are horror stories. ... We think there is going to be a lot of litigation because we have so much evidence and so much proof.'


The right-wing Heritage Foundation, after examining 36 years of mail-in ballots, found only 1,285 cases of voter fraud - out of nearly two billion votes cast, a rate of .0000007 percent.  I'm told that's about the same probability as being hit by an asteroid.
After four years it should be evident that providing facts, science and data you are not going to convince the other side that Trump is once again lying. As for the so-called ”China virus”, critical thinkers simply need to examine the number of deaths versus population of both China and the United States to see which country is doing a better job protecting it's citizens. For one side in this argument, critical thinking facts, science and data are simply to be ignored and never Trump.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 09:43:29 am
After four years it should be evident that providing facts, science and data you are not going to convince the other side that Trump is once again lying. As for the so-called ”China virus”, critical thinkers simply need to examine the number of deaths versus population of both China and the United States to see which country is doing a better job protecting it's citizens. For one side in this argument, critical thinking facts, science and data are simply to be ignored and never Trump.

Well we now know all we need to know about Andrew. Compare China to the US?  Critical thinking?  Not even close.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 06, 2020, 09:45:01 am
The supposed test taker the Dems claim did it was not in the same grade as Trump and they did not meet until college.

Right. They obviously guessed the wrong person. :)
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 10:03:33 am
Well we now know all we need to know about Andrew. Compare China to the US?  Critical thinking?  Not even close.
“Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”
― Aldous Huxley
And you have ignored them. Again.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 06, 2020, 10:04:29 am
And amazingly Florida finished its count with minimal fuss and the vast majority did not take days and days.

The legislatures in Florida and many other states had the foresight to allow mail-in ballots to be counted before election day. Other state legislatures, with both Republican and Democratic majorities, had their heads up their asses. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: James Clark on November 06, 2020, 10:10:34 am
The legislatures in Florida and many other states had the foresight to allow mail-in ballots to be counted before election day. Other state legislatures, with both Republican and Democratic majorities, had their heads up their asses.

Yes, this is exactly why you saw many states with large Biden leads that then reversed as day-of counts came in.  You didn't see Biden's people screaming about "fraud" when Ohio flipped after a substantial early Biden lead, for example.  And it's not like this exact scenario wasn't talked about extensively.  Anyone paying attention *knew* that mail-in ballots were going to favor Biden, and day of was going o favor Trump.  There's no mystery, and no conspiracy here.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on November 06, 2020, 10:11:21 am
We have never had an election quite like this in modern history with election laws being made seemingly on the fly by the courts and in many instances contrary to the election laws passed by the state legislatures.  Not to mention some states simply flooding their states with unrequested ballots.  Like it or not that IS an invitation to voter fraud.  It remains to be seen if it actually happened but finding it is really difficult.

I wonder what the state of the country would be if the tables were flipped right now?  There is a reason Americans cities boarded up their windows  prior to this election and it was not becase of Trump voters.  Heck Hillary was still claiming just a week or so ago that Trunp beat her by fraud.

Let me see if i understand correctly:

Step 1 - this election is a fraud, says Trump, before the election started.
Step 2 - I have won, says Trump, based on incomplete counting.
Step 3 - we have a lot of evidence they are stealing the win from us, says Trump, once he starts losing. No evidence is presented.

Next steps he will no doubt resort to courts in the hope of dragging the final declaration. He has every right to do so. What he has no right to do is to lie blatantly before, during and after the election, and inciting violence.

Biden is already ahead in Pensylvania.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 06, 2020, 10:19:48 am
As I have been following election coverage, I have noted that Team Trump is losing all of the litigation they have instituted so far, the exception being one suit in Pennsylvania where the judge allowed poll watchers to move from 10 feet to 6 feet from the vote counters to better observe the vote counters open the envelopes, remove and flatten the ballots, and insert the ballots in the counting machine. Have I missed something?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 10:21:31 am
“Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”
― Aldous Huxley
And you have ignored them. Again.

No Andrew I have ignored nothing.  You want to compare a country who locked their residents into their apartments to a free country where citizens have rights. You want to call that "critical thinking"? LOL!
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 10:22:13 am
The legislatures in Florida and many other states had the foresight to allow mail-in ballots to be counted before election day. Other state legislatures, with both Republican and Democratic majorities, had their heads up their asses.

Yes they did.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 10:24:51 am
As I have been following election coverage, I have noted that Team Trump is losing all of the litigation they have instituted so far, the exception being one suit in Pennsylvania where the judge allowed poll watchers to move from 10 feet to 6 feet from the vote counters to better observe the vote counters open the envelopes, remove and flatten the ballots, and insert the ballots in the counting machine. Have I missed something?

They lost that one too.  Nothing surprising given the local nature of the rulings. 

Here is an interesting article on how the "machine" may work.

‘American Hustle’: Party Insiders Tell The True Story Of How Philadelphia Elections Work


https://thefederalist.com/2020/11/06/american-hustle-party-insiders-tell-the-true-story-of-how-philadelphia-elections-work/
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Chris Kern on November 06, 2020, 10:25:53 am
Trump: We're hearing stories that are horror stories. ... We think there is going to be a lot of litigation because we have so much evidence and so much proof.'

At least seven television networks including ABC, CBS, NBC and MSNBC, cut away from Trump's White House address . . .

Which was a questionable call.  Was Trump lying about having evidence of fraud?  Either that or he is delusional: either—or both—would be consistent with his past behavior.  Were his claims baseless, irresponsible, and incendiary?  Sure, but what else is new?  Could they have emboldened some of his crazier supporters to engage in criminal behavior?  Maybe, but dealing with that is an issue for law enforcement, not journalists.  He is the presidential candidate of one of the two major U.S. political parties and the incumbent president.  When he has these televised public meltdowns, the public deserves to be exposed to them.  Hopefully, people will see them for what they are, but the proper role of the news media is to provide context and report factual inaccuracies, not to protect the public from witnessing angry outbursts by their elected officials.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 10:29:27 am
Let me see if i understand correctly:

Step 1 - this election is a fraud, says Trump, before the election started.
Step 2 - I have won, says Trump, based on incomplete counting.
Step 3 - we have a lot of evidence they are stealing the win from us, says Trump, once he starts losing. No evidence is presented.

Next steps he will no doubt resort to courts in the hope of dragging the final declaration. He has every right to do so. What he has no right to do is to lie blatantly before, during and after the election, and inciting violence.

Biden is already ahead in Pensylvania.

He has every right to say anything he wants to say in regards to this election.  This is America.  Last I looked he has not suggested anyone resort to violence.  If I'm wrong I'm sure you can show me why I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 10:34:14 am
No Andrew I have ignored nothing.  You want to compare a country who locked their residents into their apartments to a free country where citizens have rights.
Yes! And the difference:
Population of China, 1.4 billion, less than 5K dead.
Or population of Canada: 38 million, deaths 10K.
Population of US 328 million, deaths, 235K

Same virus. Same humans. Different degree of leadership or lack thereof.
I'm not pointing out the facts to suggest you can change your mind or accept facts. It is impossible to puncture the unreality bubble surrounding a fact denier. We can only attempt to sway those with open minds. Open to facts, science and critical thinking. As you keep posting, you express a failure for all of that.  :P
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Robert Roaldi on November 06, 2020, 10:38:49 am
He has every right to say anything he wants to say in regards to this election.  This is America.  Last I looked he has not suggested anyone resort to violence.  If I'm wrong I'm sure you can show me why I'm wrong.

Does he have the right to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theatre?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 10:39:40 am
Does he have the right to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theatre?
After actually setting it?  :D
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 10:41:09 am
Does he have the right to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theatre?

Read my post carefully.  "in regards to the election"

Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 10:48:06 am
Yes! And the difference:
Population of China, 1.4 billion, less than 5K dead.
Or population of Canada: 38 million, deaths 10K.
Population of US 328 million, deaths, 235K

Same virus. Same humans. Different degree of leadership or lack thereof.
I'm not pointing out the facts to suggest you can change your mind or accept facts. It is impossible to puncture the unreality bubble surrounding a fact denier. We can only attempt to sway those with open minds. Open to facts, science and critical thinking. As you keep posting, you express a failure for all of that.  :P

So now, cornered, you try and move the goal posts. Why am I not suprised.

More examples of your "critical thinking" skills again Andrew?  Yes. a very different degree of leadership.  China has little to no respect for the rights of its citizens and literally locked then inside their apartments.  The US respects the constitutional rights of its citizens and they are defended by the courts.  Thats not a comparison you can make.

There is no "critical thinking" here Andrew.  Perhaps you might be better served by sticking to the viewing of color swatches.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 10:50:31 am
Perhaps you might be better served by sticking to the viewing of color swatches.
The absurd is the last refuge of a pundit without an argument.Without absurdity, we would have no one to laugh at. Thank you for your contributions.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: James Clark on November 06, 2020, 10:50:46 am
They lost that one too.  Nothing surprising given the local nature of the rulings. 

Here is an interesting article on how the "machine" may work.

‘American Hustle’: Party Insiders Tell The True Story Of How Philadelphia Elections Work


https://thefederalist.com/2020/11/06/american-hustle-party-insiders-tell-the-true-story-of-how-philadelphia-elections-work/

PA judge that told Trump's lawyers to GTFO was a Bush appointee, FWIW. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Peter McLennan on November 06, 2020, 10:53:28 am
An independent election fraud investigation should be relatively easy to implement. It's been done before, why not do it again?

Let a bi-partisan committee arrange for an inquiry and let the various parties produce evidence to prove or disprove their claims in court .

Isn't this the American way?



Oh, wait.  Sorry.  A useless waste of time.  The <insert usual suspects here> will claim the investigation itself was fraudulent and nothing will change.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Peter McLennan on November 06, 2020, 10:55:25 am
The absurd is the last refuge of a pundit without an argument.Without absurdity, we would have no one to laugh at. Thank you for your contributions.

And his condescending insults.  We all benefit from them.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: James Clark on November 06, 2020, 10:56:28 am
Which was a questionable call.  Was Trump lying about having evidence of fraud?  Either that or he is delusional: either—or both—would be consistent with his past behavior.  Were his claims baseless, irresponsible, and incendiary?  Sure, but what else is new?  Could they have emboldened some of his crazier supporters to engage in criminal behavior?  Maybe, but dealing with that is an issue for law enforcement, not journalists.  He is the presidential candidate of one of the two major U.S. political parties and the incumbent president.  When he has these televised public meltdowns, the public deserves to be exposed to them.  Hopefully, people will see them for what they are, but the proper role of the news media is to provide context and report factual inaccuracies, not to protect the public from witnessing angry outbursts by their elected officials.

I admire the ethical journalist in you, and while I largely and generally agree, isn't there a point where it becomes irresponsible to air things that *both* cause harm to to the community AND are wholly without evidence?   For example, if Joe Biden is eventually certified as president, and he begins to make speeches about how drug companies have a secret vaccine their not releasing because of embedded FDA Trump supporters, is it REALLY ok to keep broadcasting that as people get more and more desperate? 

Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 10:59:23 am
The absurd is the last refuge of a pundit without an argument.Without absurdity, we would have no one to laugh at. Thank you for your contributions.

Well it appears you are far better suited to viewing color swatches that dealing with the problems in your logic and "critical thinking" skills.    Once more the digital dog SOP.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 06, 2020, 11:00:33 am
So now, cornered, you try and move the goal posts. Why am I not suprised.

More examples of your "critical thinking" skills again Andrew?  Yes. a very different degree of leadership.  China has little to no respect for the rights of its citizens and literally locked then inside their apartments.  The US respects the constitutional rights of its citizens and they are defended by the courts.  Thats not a comparison you can make.

There is no "critical thinking" here Andrew.  Perhaps you might be better served by sticking to the viewing of color swatches.

Ah...but you conveniently forgot to say anything about Canadian handling of the virus...which has the same citizen freedoms as the US...but a much different leadership.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 11:00:46 am
An independent election fraud investigation should be relatively easy to implement. It's been done before, why not do it again?

Let a bi-partisan committee arrange for an inquiry and let the various parties produce evidence to prove or disprove their claims in court .

Isn't this the American way?



Oh, wait.  Sorry.  A useless waste of time.  The <insert usual suspects here> will claim the investigation itself was fraudulent and nothing will change.

No the American way to to file lawsuits and take the matter to court. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: armand on November 06, 2020, 11:01:08 am
I would have posted this in the humor section but I don't want it deleted.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on November 06, 2020, 11:01:28 am
He has every right to say anything he wants to say in regards to this election.  This is America.  Last I looked he has not suggested anyone resort to violence.  If I'm wrong I'm sure you can show me why I'm wrong.

He is not in a talk show anymore, he is the POTUS, he should act responsibly at least on this occasion. Making fraud accusations, talking about stealing the election from him, and not providing any evidence, don't you think that attitude may lead to violence in the street from his supporters?

A few weeks ago he said to an extremist group to "be ready". He has been playing out this story for weeks in anticipation of defeat, blaming others has been his constant attitude towards lack of success.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 11:04:25 am
Ah...but you conveniently forgot to say anything about Canadian handling of the virus...which has the same citizen freedoms as the US...but a much different leadership.

We have done that..endlessly.  It's not about "leadership" but rather the people and their unwillingness to forsake their freedoms, at least in my opinion. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Manoli on November 06, 2020, 11:06:46 am
Which was a questionable call.  Was Trump lying about having evidence of fraud?  Either that or he is delusional: either—or both—would be consistent with his past behavior.  Were his claims baseless, irresponsible, and incendiary?  Sure, but what else is new?  Could they have emboldened some of his crazier supporters to engage in criminal behavior?  Maybe, but dealing with that is an issue for law enforcement, not journalists.  He is the presidential candidate of one of the two major U.S. political parties and the incumbent president. When he has these televised public meltdowns, the public deserves to be exposed to them.  Hopefully, people will see them for what they are, but the proper role of the news media is to provide context and report factual inaccuracies, not to protect the public from witnessing angry outbursts by their elected officials.

Just to be clear, the clips I saw from some channels didn't simply cut transmission but reduced the Trump address to a window (and not a small one) but the anchors did 'appear' in parallel, in a seperate window, to flag the unstubstantiated and defamatory remarks to their viewers.

It's a fine line. Had they not interjected they could later be accused of furthering and abetting the propaganda. What they did, IMO, was the correct action - they didn't limit the address or deny coverage but flagged the broadcast - as you say to 'provide context and report factual inaccuracies'.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 11:08:17 am
He is not in a talk show anymore, he is the POTUS, he should act responsibly at least on this occasion. Making fraud accusations, talking about stealing the election from him, and not providing any evidence, don't you think that attitude may lead to violence in the street from his supporters?

A few weeks ago he said to an extremist group to "be ready". He has been playing out this story for weeks in anticipation of defeat, blaming others has been his constant attitude towards lack of success.

Wait, you said he was inciting violence, now its "may" lead to violence? 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: James Clark on November 06, 2020, 11:14:39 am
It's not about "leadership" but rather the people and their unwillingness to forsake their freedoms, at least in my opinion.

I think you're correct, sort of,  but I think you're mistaking Canadians' and (Western) Europeans' respect for a differing view of the social contract for a "willingness to forsake their freedoms."   
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 11:15:42 am
Interesting.

Just heard a news report on TV that the State of Georgia says it has not seen evidence yet of widespread vote fraud it had found cases of fraud and will begin the investigation. Saying lots of smaller cases do add up.

I've not been able to confirm this on the web.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Peter McLennan on November 06, 2020, 11:16:44 am
We have done that..endlessly.  It's not about "leadership" but rather the people and their unwillingness to forsake their freedoms, at least in my opinion.

I’m a Canadian.  Your opinion is wrong.

Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 11:18:52 am
I think you're correct, sort of,  but I think you're mistaking Canadians' and (Western) Europeans' respect for a differing view of the social contract for a "willingness to forsake their freedoms."

I don't know, we are seeing un uprising in the cases of Europeans protesting to take back their freedoms. :) 

In any case the difference appears to be semantic
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 11:19:33 am
I’m a Canadian.  Your opinion is wrong.

I'm an American, your opinion is wrong.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 11:24:41 am
Ah...but you conveniently forgot to say anything about Canadian handling of the virus...which has the same citizen freedoms as the US...but a much different leadership.
Of course he conveniently forgot. Those facts poke massive holes in his non-critical thinking and lack of data when posting. All he's got is insult. It is refreshing that at least some here see through his convenient memory loss or understanding of facts. The unreality bubble is thick with this one. ;)
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 06, 2020, 11:28:08 am
We have done that..endlessly.  It's not about "leadership" but rather the people and their unwillingness to forsake their freedoms, at least in my opinion.

Sorry, but you are wrong. People here in Canada are also upset about the lockdowns and processes put in place to fight the virus...but they understand the need because of the consistent message from all levels of leadership including the medical experts. Compare that to the US which message is all over the map with Trump making everything an election issue.

Your view that somehow Americans care more about their freedom than Canadians is a ignorant view as you don't know much about Canadians.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 11:29:06 am
Of course he conveniently forgot. Those facts poke massive holes in his non-critical thinking and lack of data when posting. All he's got is insult. It is refreshing that at least some here see through his convenient memory loss or understanding of facts. The unreality bubble is thick with this one. ;)

No Andrew I addresed it at the beginning of my post. You got caught and you attempted to wiggle your way out of it by moving the goalposts.  You added in Canada because your US-China gambit was a failure. Why not just admit it.


Again you mihgt wnt to stick to color charts.

Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Chris Kern on November 06, 2020, 11:29:57 am
Does he have the right to yell "Fire!" in a crowded theatre?

In the United States, speech that creates a "clear and present danger" of illegal action may create criminal or civil liability.

Quote
The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theatre and causing a panic. It does not even protect a man from an injunction against uttering words that may have all the effect of force. . . .  The question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent. It is a question of proximity and degree.

Schenck v. United States, 1919 (citations omitted)

. . . isn't there a point where it becomes irresponsible to air things that *both* cause harm to to the community AND are wholly without evidence?

Where elected officials or other public figures (e.g., political candidates) are involved, I think the news media should be extremely cautious about deciding not to report what they say—even in situations where their speech may not be constitutionally protected.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 11:33:00 am
Again you mihgt wnt to stick to color charts.
Evidence:
All humans are are stupid, but the smarter ones at least have a handle on their own innorance” John Cleese
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on November 06, 2020, 11:35:51 am
Wait, you said he was inciting violence, now its "may" lead to violence?

When Trump incites/encourages/stirs up/whips up his supporters by continuingly claiming he was a vicitm of fraud, etc, that may lead to said supporters resorting to violence.

Cause and consequence.

If I incite someone to do a certain action, that person may do it.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 11:38:40 am
In the United States, speech that creates a "clear and present danger" of illegal action may create criminal or civil liability.

Where elected officials or other public figures (e.g., political candidates) are involved, I think the news media should be extremely cautious about deciding not to report what they say—even in situations where their speech may not be constitutionally protected.
Important distinction to free speech that some outside the US probably understand better than many inside: As Linda Holmes of NPR wrote in 2010 "The First Amendment doesn't guarantee that speaking your mind will have no economic consequences. Because the free in that concept means free from government interference,not free from consequences."
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 11:39:56 am
Sorry, but you are wrong. People here in Canada are also upset about the lockdowns and processes put in place to fight the virus...but they understand the need because of the consistent message from all levels of leadership including the medical experts. Compare that to the US which message is all over the map with Trump making everything an election issue.

Your view that somehow Americans care more about their freedom than Canadians is a ignorant view as you don't know much about Canadians.

Well lets test your theory.  If its leadership then we could assume that most American Democrats would be taking the advice from Fauci and others who have had a mostly uninterupted and consistant message to the American people.  They are not listening to Trump.  If thats the case they why did the US experience such a huge surge in cases in the 15-25 or so age range?  They were most likely NOT listening to Trump. They simply were doing what they wanted to do.  Which was live their lives.

Perhaps Canadians are more willing to be lead around by government. Who knows.  Its is pretty clear a very large subset of Americans are not.  Call it what you will.  Not willing to give up their freedoms, differing view of the "social contract"..whatever floats your boat. 

One last question Chez. how many times do we need to rehash thhis argument?

Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on November 06, 2020, 11:41:32 am
Interesting.

Just heard a news report on TV that the State of Georgia says it has not seen evidence yet of widespread vote fraud it had found cases of fraud and will begin the investigation. Saying lots of smaller cases do add up.

I've not been able to confirm this on the web.

I just read here in a Portuguese newspaper that in Georgia when the difference is smaller than 0.5 the candidate that loses has the right to demand a recount.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 11:42:52 am
When Trump incites/encourages/stirs up/whips up his supporters by continuingly claiming he was a vicitm of fraud, etc, that may lead to said supporters resorting to violence.

Cause and consequence.

If I incite someone to do a certain action, that person may do it.

Ah, it "may" lead.  Again where has he suggested his supporters commit violence?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 11:44:20 am
Evidence:
All humans are are stupid, but the smarter ones at least have a handle on their own innorance” John Cleese

Can't counter the arguments, then point out typing errors. Great work Andrew.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 11:48:21 am
I just read here in a Portuguese newspaper that in Georgia when the difference is smaller than 0.5 the candidate that loses has the right to demand a recount.

Georgia has just announced there will be a recount.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 06, 2020, 11:59:03 am
We have done that..endlessly.  It's not about "leadership" but rather the people and their unwillingness to forsake their freedoms, at least in my opinion.

Yeah, but masks are like seat belts and motorcycle helmets, a de minimus intrusion on personal liberty. Of course we have a long history of rugged individualism and civil disobedience, so it is not a surprise that some people chafe under the yoke of the mask. My position is that if you don't want to wear a mask, and are prepared to accept the consequences, don't wear one. Just don't try to convince me you are acting rationally.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 12:02:16 pm
Yeah, but masks are like seat belts and motorcycle helmets, a de minimus intrusion on personal liberty. Of course we have a long history of rugged individualism and civil disobedience, so it is not a surprise that some people chafe under the yoke of the mask. My position is that if you don't want to wear a mask, and are prepared to accept the consequences, don't wear one. Just don't try to convince me you are acting rationally.

I don't disagree, and my position has been consistant from day one.  I hate wearing masks, I always wear a mask.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 06, 2020, 12:03:36 pm
Georgia has just announced there will be a recount.

It is pretty close there, so I don't have a problem with that. They are also going to have to have run-offs for both Senate seats, so we won't know who has the majority in the Senate for a while.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 12:06:12 pm
It is pretty close there, so I don't have a problem with that. They are also going to have to have a run-off for both Senate seats, so we won't know who has the majority in the Senate for a while.

Who knows if there will be a runoff for one of them...need the recount first.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 06, 2020, 12:09:47 pm
Well lets test your theory.  If its leadership then we could assume that most American Democrats would be taking the advice from Fauci and others who have had a mostly uninterupted and consistant message to the American people.  They are not listening to Trump.  If thats the case they why did the US experience such a huge surge in cases in the 15-25 or so age range?  They were most likely NOT listening to Trump. They simply were doing what they wanted to do.  Which was live their lives.

They probably weren't listening to Trump or Fauci, or their governor or mayor or parents. More than a few in the 15-25 age group think they are immortal and make errors of judgment. Thinking is an acquired skill.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on November 06, 2020, 12:10:09 pm
Ah, it "may" lead.  Again where has he suggested his supporters commit violence?

I am sure you can understand cause and consequence.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: John Camp on November 06, 2020, 12:10:33 pm
One question about talk of "freedoms" is...what freedoms are we really talking about? New Mexico has had ups and downs in business shutdowns, but things are functioning at some level and some provisions are being made for people forced out of work.The provisions would be stronger if the Republicans in the Senate would pass another support bill. (Conservatives complain about the national debt, but the national debt was at about the same percentage levels vis-a-vis the GDP after World War II, and we came back from that nicely enough.) The biggest "freedom" complaints I see from the Trump people are the arguments about whether we should wear masks. The requirement that people wear masks during a pandemic is a restriction on freedom? You can go where you want (while wearing a mask) you can fly (while wearing a mask, as long as you're not actually sick) you can say anything you want while wearing a mask, and, in Arizona, rally outside the vote-counting place while carrying your locked-and-loaded black rifle while wearing a mask. So is the big restriction on "freedom" is that you have to wear a mask during a pandemic? Give me a break.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 06, 2020, 12:13:52 pm
Well lets test your theory.  If its leadership then we could assume that most American Democrats would be taking the advice from Fauci and others who have had a mostly uninterupted and consistant message to the American people.  They are not listening to Trump.  If thats the case they why did the US experience such a huge surge in cases in the 15-25 or so age range?  They were most likely NOT listening to Trump. They simply were doing what they wanted to do.  Which was live their lives.

Perhaps Canadians are more willing to be lead around by government. Who knows.  Its is pretty clear a very large subset of Americans are not.  Call it what you will.  Not willing to give up their freedoms, differing view of the "social contract"..whatever floats your boat. 

One last question Chez. how many times do we need to rehash thhis argument?

As long as you keep implying Canadians and Europeans are just sheep that follow their leaders without doing their own thinking. Again I ask you, how much do you know about Canadians...how much time have you spent here in Canada talking with Canadians. Seems to me you are talking from ignorance.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 12:18:17 pm
Yeah, but masks are like seat belts and motorcycle helmets, a de minimus intrusion on personal liberty. Of course we have a long history of rugged individualism and civil disobedience, so it is not a surprise that some people chafe under the yoke of the mask. My position is that if you don't want to wear a mask, and are prepared to accept the consequences, don't wear one. Just don't try to convince me you are acting rationally.
The issue is this; If you wear a seatbelt, you protect yourself from flying through the windshield. When you wear a mask, you are not protecting yourself, you are protecting others. It's why for over a hundred years, surgery staff wear a mask when operating (anyone in doubt ever have surgery and would be just fine without them wearing a mask?).
When I wear a mask, I protect YOU. When you wear a mask, you protect ME; major difference. Had such a fact sunk into Trump's head, he could have been a hero and instead, our country is massively sick instead. He could have used his powers of persuasion to get his people to wear masks, he did the opposite and made it political while like a few well know posters here, ignoring science. A mask should never be political. Just like it isn't political to stop at red lights; it's a really smart thing to do.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 06, 2020, 12:19:05 pm
Who knows if there will be a runoff for one of them...need the recount first.

Are they recounting the Senate races too?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 12:21:33 pm
Can't counter the arguments, then point out typing errors. Great work Andrew.
It is great work on two counts; sloppy typing errors, sloppy errors in logic, utter lack of accepting the facts and science; between the US and China, between the US and Canada with respect to this virus. Can't counter the arguments? Pot calling kettle black (and white, and gray) all while having no idea about the kettle at all.
Rule on holes; when you're deep inside one, stop digging. I understand you can't.  :o
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 12:23:14 pm
I am sure you can understand cause and consequence.
The history suggests, you shouldn't be too sure of that....  ;D The reply backing that up is coming, wait for it, wait for it....
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 06, 2020, 12:25:06 pm
of A mask should never be political.

Yeah, but it is, so you just have to accept that fact and factor it into the equation.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Frans Waterlander on November 06, 2020, 12:28:12 pm
Evidence:
All humans are are stupid, but the smarter ones at least have a handle on their own innorance” John Cleese
Never noticed John Cleese stuttering!
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: MattBurt on November 06, 2020, 12:28:37 pm
You know that story has been discredited, well the SAT one. 


The guy's widow says it couldn't have happened because he always did the right thing.
Giving her the benefit of the doubt, I guess Trump must have hired someone else.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 12:30:32 pm
I am sure you can understand cause and consequence.

I sure can.  You said he WAS inciting violence.  Now you say he MAY BE inciting violence.  I'm sure you can understand the difference.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Robert Roaldi on November 06, 2020, 12:34:59 pm
In the United States, speech that creates a "clear and present danger" of illegal action may create criminal or civil liability.

Where elected officials or other public figures (e.g., political candidates) are involved, I think the news media should be extremely cautious about deciding not to report what they say—even in situations where their speech may not be constitutionally protected.

I do have a lot of sympathy for that point of view. Always good to shine a light on things. If a politician wants to make a fool of himself in public, why should anyone stop him. But Trump has come pretty close to crossing some line a few times. I am thinking of when he vilified Mexicans. Was that really so far from vilifying Jews, for instance? Would people have been as ok with that, I wonder.

It's easy to construct a scenario where a situation could lead to real trouble. If it weren't for the various medical authorities who called into question Trump's views on handling Covid, if they were muzzled for instance, or instantly fired for not toeing the party line, and many more people get sick and died, is that a "clear and present" danger?  I have no idea. I have no trouble with such officials speaking their minds, a country is not a Corporation whose President is the CEO, he does get or does he deserve the last work. Politicians are just some folks we hire to do a job, after all, nothing sacred about them. Who says he can't be contradicted in the open by his own staff? Luckily, that has happened, more or less. So there was a case where he spoke gibberish often but saner voices were also heard. In the long run, better to have heard what he had to say, no matter how ignorant. It's just  a bit bad for the country if people choose to believe the gibberish. But I guess people are free to act against their own best interests.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 06, 2020, 12:35:51 pm
I sure can.  You said he WAS inciting violence.  Now you say he MAY BE inciting violence.  I'm sure you can understand the difference.

Just talking about these semantics in WAS inciting or MAY BE inciting in the context of the president says it all.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 12:36:16 pm
As long as you keep implying Canadians and Europeans are just sheep that follow their leaders without doing their own thinking. Again I ask you, how much do you know about Canadians...how much time have you spent here in Canada talking with Canadians. Seems to me you are talking from ignorance.

We can see the differences between Canada and the US in respect to Covid requirements.  Call it whatever you want, I really dont care what "name" you give it.  Far more Americans are willing to say screw it when it comes to the govenment telling them how to live with Covid restrictions.  Thats just a fact.  If you think thats because Canadians are sheep, thats your call.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 12:37:12 pm
Just talking about these semantics in WAS inciting or MAY BE inciting in the context of the president says it all.

So tell us Chez, what exactly does it say?  It was in the context of what Paulo said, not the President.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: MattBurt on November 06, 2020, 12:39:57 pm
Evidence:
All humans are are stupid, but the smarter ones at least have a handle on their own innorance” John Cleese

Reminds me of a favorite quote:

“The fundamental cause of the trouble in the modern world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.”—Bertrand Russell
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 06, 2020, 12:40:18 pm
We can see the differences between Canada and the US in respect to Covid requirements.  Call it whatever you want, I really dont care what "name" you give it.  Far more Americans are willing to say screw it when it comes to the govenment telling them how to live with Covid restrictions.  Thats just a fact.  If you think thats because Canadians are sheep, thats your call.

But what you don't get, parts of the government are telling the Americans to screw it. Other parts are telling them to wear masks. That's the point...zero consistent leadership and the American sheeple follow what their party leaders tell them...we've seen this over and over.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 06, 2020, 12:42:35 pm
So tell us Chez, what exactly does it say?  It was in the context of what Paulo said, not the President.

But Paulo was referring to the president when he said it. Like I already said, it says a lot when we are discussing if the president did incite violence or maybe incited violence.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 12:42:49 pm
Never noticed John Cleese stuttering!
Nor has anyone noticed his camera sensor over heat.  ;)
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 12:52:39 pm
Far more Americans are willing to say screw it when it comes to the govenment telling them how to live with Covid restrictions. 
No, they are dying instead. Understandable you still can't connect those dots.
As a great republican once said:
 "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln
At this point in the thread, there's no doubt.

As a very poor republican who can't tell the truth about Covid-19 said:

When: Friday, February 7, and Wednesday, February 19
The claim: The coronavirus would weaken “when we get into April, in the warmer weather—that has a very negative effect on that, and that type of a virus.”
When: Thursday, February 27
The claim: The outbreak would be temporary: “It’s going to disappear. One day, it’s like a miracle—it will disappear.”
When: Multiple times
The claim: "If the economic shutdown continues, deaths by suicide “definitely would be in far greater numbers than the numbers that we’re talking about” for COVID-19 deaths.
When: Multiple times
The claim: “Coronavirus numbers are looking MUCH better, going down almost everywhere,” and cases are “coming way down.”
When: Wednesday, June 17
The claim: The pandemic is “fading away. It’s going to fade away.”
When: Thursday, July 2
The claim: The pandemic is “getting under control.”
When: Saturday, July 4
The claim: “99%” of COVID-19 cases are “totally harmless.”
When: Monday, July 6
The claim: “We now have the lowest Fatality (Mortality) Rate in the World.”
When: Multiple times
The claim: Children are “virtually immune” to COVID-19.
When: Thursday, August 27
The claim: The U.S. has “among the lowest case-fatality rates of any major country anywhere in the world.
When: Multiple times
The claim: America is “rounding the corner” and “rounding the final turn” of the pandemic.".

How do you know when Trump is lies about the Pandemic? His mouth moves.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 06, 2020, 01:04:57 pm
IWhere elected officials or other public figures (e.g., political candidates) are involved, I think the news media should be extremely cautious about deciding not to report what they say—even in situations where their speech may not be constitutionally protected.

I am of a mixed mind about that. The networks never break in on their regular channels unless it is of the magnitude of 9/11. So covering him when he speaks has already been relegated to cable. Obviously soap operas are more important than what the president has to say. So it is a really short putt to not covering him on cable either. Really, two hour press conferences on the coronavirus. Anybody religiously watch those? If he says something important, just run the clip on the six o'clock news. We rarely need to know what he is saying while he is saying it. He's already tweeting non-stop, so if you are hanging on his every word, just follow his Twitter feed.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Peter McLennan on November 06, 2020, 01:06:36 pm
I'm an American, your opinion is wrong.

I didn’t voice an opinion.  I stated a fact.

Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 01:10:29 pm
But what you don't get, parts of the government are telling the Americans to screw it. Other parts are telling them to wear masks. That's the point...zero consistent leadership and the American sheeple follow what their party leaders tell them...we've seen this over and over.

Leadership has nothing to do with it.  Its personal preference.  If what you said was true, I am a Republican, then why am I in favor of wearing masks?  Why are young adults who are overwhelmingly Democrat not wearing mask and not social distancing.



Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 01:11:55 pm
I didn’t voice an opinion.  I stated a fact.

No you voiced an opinion. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 01:12:21 pm
I didn’t voice an opinion.  I stated a fact.
You're dealing with a fact denier. That is a fact. The arguments are silly, like having the freedom not to wear a mask. No American has the freedom to infect others with a contagious deadly disease just like they don't have the freedom to scream "Fire" in a crowed theater nor do they have the freedom to speed though red lights or shoot anyone they want on 5th Avenue. Because Trump really does believe he can shoot someone there, the sycophants believe it apples to him and others. In such a mindset, facts have long ago disappeared. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 01:14:45 pm
Leadership has nothing to do with it.  Its personal preference.  I
My preference is to shot you on 5th avenue or not stop at any red lights there or elsewhere.
Really, you don't seem to understand leadership or the laws (mandates) and cause and effect.
Your leader decided not to obey local laws and hold massive rallies allowing his clan to infect each other with Covid-19 and perhaps the flu. While mocking masks and science. That's not leadership, just the opposite.
I don’t know if you are purposely trying not to understand this, or if you are really struggling with it. Seems the later.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 01:25:24 pm
You're dealing with a fact denier. That is a fact. The arguments are silly, like having the freedom not to wear a mask. No American has the freedom to infect others with a contagious deadly disease just like they don't have the freedom to scream "Fire" in a crowed theater nor do they have the freedom to speed though red lights or shoot anyone they want on 5th Avenue. Because Trump really does believe he can shoot someone there, the sycophants believe it apples to him and others. In such a mindset, facts have long ago disappeared.

Actually they DO have those freedoms.  They CAN shout fire in a crowded theater, they can speed through an intersection, they can choose to not wear a mask and infect others or shoot someone on 5th Ave.  And then they can also face the consequences.

We have laws that regulate these actions but it does not STOP people for doing them. It only punishes those who are found guilty.



Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 06, 2020, 01:25:54 pm
My preference is to shot you on 5th avenue or not stop at any red lights there or elsewhere.
Really, you don't seem to understand leadership or the laws (mandates) and cause and effect.
Your leader decided not to obey local laws and hold massive rallies allowing his clan to infect each other with Covid-19 and perhaps the flu. While mocking masks and science. That's not leadership, just the opposite.
I don’t know if you are purposely trying not to understand this, or if you are really struggling with it. Seems the later.

I think Craig understands...but he's been sheepled by the Trump aura and anything bad said about Trump is fake news. Blindly follow the fool playing the flute right off the cliff.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 06, 2020, 01:29:31 pm
I thought this was pretty hilarious.

Eric Trump touts line to report voter fraud — but no one answers the phone

https://nypost.com/2020/11/06/eric-trump-touts-voter-fraud-line-but-no-one-answers-the-phone/

Hey Joe, I linked to an article from the New York Post.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 01:34:10 pm
My preference is to shot you on 5th avenue or not stop at any red lights there or elsewhere.
Really, you don't seem to understand leadership or the laws (mandates) and cause and effect.
Your leader decided not to obey local laws and hold massive rallies allowing his clan to infect each other with Covid-19 and perhaps the flu. While mocking masks and science. That's not leadership, just the opposite.
I don’t know if you are purposely trying not to understand this, or if you are really struggling with it. Seems the later.


You are free to do any of those things.  You may also get caught, tried and convicted. 

Did you get all upset and crazy about mass gatherings while the BLM and Anfifa went crazy in our streets.  We were told over and over again this is simply their first amendment right to assemble and protest.  How is that any different that a Trump rally?  No one forced any anyone to attend a Trump event.  People made a choice.  Funny how freedom works. I seem to remember that every person at the Trump events was given a mask.  Funny eh?  Everyone made a personal choice to attend and to wear a mask or not.

I'm really happy to know that even in potential defeat Donald J Trump has infected you so deeply.   
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 01:36:20 pm
We have laws that regulate these actions but it does not STOP people for doing them. It only punishes those who are found guilty.
Trump and many of his followers, guilty. And he's suffering the consequences, he's going to lose. Then as a private citizen, without the aid of his personal Attorney General (Barr), he may end up in jail.
But you can't seem to pay attention to the lies from Trump on Covid-197 or the facts: October 22 as seen below for 'the leader": "We are rounding the turn (corner)" (on the pandemic).
On that day, we had 74 thousand infections. Yesterday, an all time high for us and ANY country: 121 thousand infections.
So Craig, are we rounding the corner: Yes or No? Simple question, are you capable of answering it?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 01:36:25 pm
I think Craig understands...but he's been sheepled by the Trump aura and anything bad said about Trump is fake news. Blindly follow the fool playing the flute right off the cliff.

Oh yes I understand that the dog got it all wrong. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 01:38:56 pm
Did you get all upset and crazy about mass gatherings while the BLM and Anfifa went crazy in our streets.
Crazy and upset for peacefull protesting? No. Crazy and upset for crimes such as looting and burning property etc? Yes.
That's the difference between us.
If my answers frighten you then you should cease asking scary questions.”
― Quentin Tarantino, Pulp Fiction
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 01:39:11 pm
Trump and many of his followers, guilty. And he's suffering the consequences, he's going to lose. Then as a private citizen, without the aid of his personal Attorney General (Barr), he may end up in jail.
But you can't seem to pay attention to the lies from Trump on Covid-27 or the facts: October 22: "We are rounding the corner" (on the pandemic).
On that day, we had 74 thousand infections. Yesterday, an all time high for us and ANY country: 121 thousand.
So Craig, are we rounding the corner: Yes or No? Simple question, are you capable of answering it?


You are correct Trump is and will be dealing consequences of his actions. 

No I don't think we are but like Trump that just my opinion.   
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 01:41:52 pm
Crazy and upset for peacefull protesting? No. Crazy and upset for crimes such as looting and burning property etc? Yes.
That's the difference between us.
If my answers frighten you then you should cease asking scary questions.”
― Quentin Tarantino, Pulp Fiction

You want to try that again? 

You missed the point.  Bad when Trump and his fans gather...Good when BLM does.  Which one is it dog?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 01:43:16 pm
No I don't think we are but like Trump that just my opinion.
No, it's actually a fact; we are not.
Leadership, telling lies? Like over 20K of them.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 01:47:34 pm
You want to try that again? 
You missed the point.
Nope.
One group largely wore masks. One group largely didn't while mocking mask use and science. One group needed to be there to have THEIR voices heard, the other didn't; it was simply to massage Trump's need for 'love'. One group was always outside, one group was sometimes inside. One group to protest, one group to feed Trump's ego. As a leader, Trump could have stopped both, certainly the rallies as super spreaders, but he didn't. Again, you utterly missed the concept of a leader and his/her effects on people. You are consistent in that role.  :'(
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 06, 2020, 02:00:59 pm
Actually they DO have those freedoms.  They CAN shout fire in a crowded theater, they can speed through an intersection, they can choose to not wear a mask and infect others or shoot someone on 5th Ave.  And then they can also face the consequences.

We have laws that regulate these actions but it does not STOP people for doing them. It only punishes those who are found guilty.

So how come that Trump was not punished for organizing so many not essential mass gatherings and causing thousands infections?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 06, 2020, 02:01:38 pm
I remember ages ago when it was revealed that Nancy Reagan was consulting an astrologer and then trying to convince her husband, the president, to do or not do stuff based on the alignment of the stars, or whatever. I think that the president has the right to choose his advisers, but at the same time expect more of a president than to take the advice of an astrologer. That's pretty much how I feel with respect to Trump's handling of COVID. I ask myself why would a president consult with a radiologist about herd immunity. But of course that is his prerogative, and if I don't like it, I can vote for someone else the next time around, and while I am waiting on election day to arrive I can call him an idiot anywhere I want. Seems pretty straightforward.

About opinions, I think that everyone has a right to his opinion, but it does not follow that everyone's opinion is right.  All opinions are not created equal. Sure, all opinions are equal as to your favorite color, but not as to whether the Earth is flat or not, or the moon is made of green cheese or not.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 02:07:01 pm
So how come that Trump was not punished for organizing so many not essential mass gatherings and causing thousands infections?
Ask Bill Barr  ;D
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Peter McLennan on November 06, 2020, 02:12:04 pm
In his speech tonight, Biden should offer to donate residual Democrat campaign funds to the Republicans' voter fraud litigation.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Manoli on November 06, 2020, 02:30:57 pm
You are free to do any of those things.  You may also get caught, tried and convicted.     

Craig, come on surely you can see the fallacy here.
No, you are not free to shoot, murder, rob or run red lights ...
That it’s prohibited by law means NO, YOU ARE NOT FREE.

or, to put it as someone posted previously,
“Your freedom ends where it infringes mine” *

(*)
... infringes includes ‘endangering my life’
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 02:45:09 pm
Craig, come on surely you can see the fallacy here.
No, you are not free to shoot, murder, rob or run red lights ...
That it’s prohibited by law means NO, YOU ARE NOT FREE.

or, to put it as someone posted previously,
“Your freedom ends where it infringes mine” *

(*)
... infringes includes ‘endangering my life’

You are free to do all of those things or at least try.  The law does not stop you, it only punishes. 
Ask a murder victims family if the law stopped the killer from commiting the act.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 02:49:25 pm
Nope.
One group largely wore masks. One group largely didn't while mocking mask use and science. One group needed to be there to have THEIR voices heard, the other didn't; it was simply to massage Trump's need for 'love'. One group was always outside, one group was sometimes inside. One group to protest, one group to feed Trump's ego. As a leader, Trump could have stopped both, certainly the rallies as super spreaders, but he didn't. Again, you utterly missed the concept of a leader and his/her effects on people. You are consistent in that role.  :'(

So now you are the arbiter of who gets to have their voices heard and who does not or who has the right of assemnbly and who does not?  My oh my, I guess for the digtial dog only some people have rights.

You utterly miss the concept of freedom.  Why am I not surprised.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: kers on November 06, 2020, 02:50:14 pm
You are free to do all of those things or at least try.  The law does not stop you, it only punishes. 
Ask a murder victims family if the law stopped the killer from commiting the act.
I am more interested in how to stop a president from telling lies, ( day after day... )

https://apnews.com/article/trump-fabricates-election-corruption-6f505533b323acc33350e0cebf937aa6

Maybe by not electing him..
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 03:03:44 pm
No, it's actually a fact; we are not.
Leadership, telling lies? Like over 20K of them.

Lets  review shall we?

You asked, based on a single metric...the number of new cases...if we are "turning the corner" on the virus.

So I'll ask you...

1.  Are the positive test results to hospital cases rates falling since the start of the pandemic?
2.  Are the hospitilization rates to intensive care case rates falling since the start of the pandemic?
3.  Are the use of ventilators in intensive care cases falling since the start of the pandimic?
4.  Are doctors providing better treatment options since the start of the pandemic?
5.  Are there better therapeutic treatments available or soon to be available since the start of the pandemic?
6   Are vaccines closer to being available since the start of the pandemic?
7.  Are death rates from Covid lower now since the start of the pandemic?

So tell us Andrew, whats the answer to those questions?

If even some of those are true, perhaps Trumps opinion that we are "turning the corner" on the virus just might be correct or at least he has some justification for his comments.

.





Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 03:04:17 pm
I am more interested in how to stop a president from telling lies, ( day after day... )

https://apnews.com/article/trump-fabricates-election-corruption-6f505533b323acc33350e0cebf937aa6

Maybe by not electing him..

Now you have Biden who also likes to lie. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 03:06:12 pm
So how come that Trump was not punished for organizing so many not essential mass gatherings and causing thousands infections?

Freedom of speach and assembly. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 06, 2020, 03:08:17 pm
Freedom of speach and assembly.

At the cost of a quarter of million lives?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 03:18:42 pm
So now you are the arbiter of who gets to have their voices heard and who does not or who has the right of assemnbly and who does not? 
Voices vs. A voice. Again, you've ignored the connected dots.
I understand you can't separate the voice of the people from the voice of Trump.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 03:21:02 pm
At the cost of a quarter of million lives?
Are you serious?  You want to blame freedom of speach and assembly for all the Covid deaths in the US? 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 03:25:08 pm
Voices vs. A voice. Again, you've ignored the connected dots.
I understand you can't separate the voice of the people from the voice of Trump.


You didn't connect the dots, you simply decided what voices could be heard and those who could not. Thats not up to you.

But I understand that you are in a box now and are looking for the way out.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 03:25:31 pm
Lets  review shall we?

You asked, based on a single metric...the number of new cases...if we are "turning the corner" on the virus.

So I'll ask you...

1.  Are the positive test results to hospital cases rates falling since the start of the pandemic?
2.  Are the hospitilization rates to intensive care case rates falling since the start of the pandemic?
3.  Are the use of ventilators in intensive care cases falling since the start of the pandimic?
4.  Are doctors providing better treatment options since the start of the pandemic?
5.  Are there better therapeutic treatments available or soon to be available since the start of the pandemic?
6   Are vaccines closer to being available since the start of the pandemic?
7.  Are death rates from Covid lower now since the start of the pandemic?

So tell us Andrew, whats the answer to those questions?

If even some of those are true, perhaps Trumps opinion that we are "turning the corner" on the virus just might be correct or at least he has some justification for his comments.

No. Rates change and testing increases of course. Mr. Trump lies, saying more testing equals more cases; it's like suggesting if we stop testing for cancer, there will be less cancer. It's rubbish.
No.
Doesn't matter; number of cases, hospitalizations and deaths have gone up. And will continue to.
Yes, unlike Trump, doctors learn, adapt and use facts to do better.
Yes, same as above. Got nothing to do with Trump.
There are no vaccines yet. They are still in testing. Oh, and Trump told us we'd have one or more by a 'special day' (November 3rd), another lie.
The last question makes little sense, we are seeing higher number of deaths since the beginning of the pandemic overall. And it's not over. In fact, it's getting worse, despite the lies you also believe are just opinions (we are rounding the corner). WE ARE NOT.
I'm sorry the facts have ruined your life. I'm more sorry the deliberate malpractice of the current administration has produced a country with 230 thousand dead, the leader of the world in both infections and death. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 03:26:38 pm
But I understand that you are in a box now and are looking for the way out.
Again, pot calling kettle black. It's probably why so few here are taking you seriously.
Critical thinking, acceptance of facts and science; it's not a flower that grows well in your garden.
Keep digging.  ;D
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 06, 2020, 03:37:23 pm
Freedom of speach and assembly.

Or state and local law enforcement didn't cite him and his supporters, because they don't cite anyone.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 04:03:27 pm

No. Rates change and testing increases of course. Mr. Trump lies, saying more testing equals more cases; it's like suggesting if we stop testing for cancer, there will be less cancer. It's rubbish.

So which is it? The rate has not changed or it has.  Its a simple question.  What was the positive test rate to hospitalization rate in May compared to now?  Is it up or down?  A simple question you failed to answer.

Quote
No.

Ok, show us the numbers please

Quote
Doesn't matter; number of cases, hospitalizations and deaths have gone up. And will continue to.

Of course it matters.  Are sick patients more or less likely to need vents to try and stay alive?

Quote
Yes, unlike Trump, doctors learn, adapt and use facts to do better

This has nothing to do with Trump and no one said it did, but thanks for admitting in this case at least we are doing better.
 
Quote
Yes, same as above. Got nothing to do with Trump.


You were not asked if Trump played a part in getting therapeutics to market, but now that you mention it how can you discount his hand helping the process along?

Quote
There are no vaccines yet. They are still in testing. Oh, and Trump told us we'd have one or more by a 'special day' (November 3rd), another lie.


You are like a broken record skipping on the intro...But you failed to answer the question.  Are we closer to having a vaccine now that when the virus started?  How hard of a question was that? A simple yes or now will do.

Quote
The last question makes little sense, we are seeing higher number of deaths since the beginning of the pandemic overall. And it's not over. In fact, it's getting worse, despite the lies you also believe are just opinions (we are rounding the corner). WE ARE NOT.

Its really a simple question but I forget who I was questioning.  How many people who test positive and did not die, compared to the number of people who tested positive and died at the start of the pandemic?  But lets also look at your answer.  Higher numbers of deaths overall since the start of the pandemic. 
  Deaths from what?  We are talking about Covid.  Deaths per week have fallen and not risen since the peak back in the spring.

Quote

I'm sorry the facts have ruined your life. I'm more sorry the deliberate malpractice of the current administration has produced a country with 230 thousand dead, the leader of the world in both infections and death. 


You are a hoot when you get testy Andrew.  Last I looked my life is doing just fine, clealry not ruined. You don't like what Trump did but your new choice for President, based on his own words and the words of his surrogates early in the pandemic would not have done any better. The fact is we don't know if any leader whould have had better luck in the USA.   

Clearly Trump has reasons he can use to use if he wants to justify his opinion that we are "rounding the corner".

We treat patients with the virus better now.
We have better drugs and more are on the way. 
Vaccines have been fast tracked and are nearing the finish line. 
Less people who test positive go to the hospital. 
We put fewer sick people on vents. 
More sick people recover.
Less people who test positive die. 
More people should have immunity.

Yes we still have a bunch of people getting the virus, not only here but worldwide.  Its not over. But wwe might have turned that corner, when you consider where we started.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 04:06:18 pm
Again, pot calling kettle black. It's probably why so few here are taking you seriously.
Critical thinking, acceptance of facts and science; it's not a flower that grows well in your garden.
Keep digging.  ;D

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. 

What a poor attempt at deflection from the fact you decided you had the power to decide who can speak and who can't in America.  Some people might call that bigotry.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 06, 2020, 04:10:11 pm
Sean Hannity wants a do-over election in Pennsylvania.

Sean Hannity Says Unprecedented 'Do Over' in Pennsylvania Election Could Undo Alleged Voter Fraud

https://www.newsweek.com/sean-hannity-says-unprecedented-do-over-pennsylvania-election-could-undo-alleged-voter-fraud-1545368

So if Biden prevails, what is Sean Hannity going to be doing after January 20, 2021?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 04:11:54 pm
Sean Hannity wants a do-over election in Pennsylvania.

Sean Hannity Says Unprecedented 'Do Over' in Pennsylvania Election Could Undo Alleged Voter Fraud

https://www.newsweek.com/sean-hannity-says-unprecedented-do-over-pennsylvania-election-could-undo-alleged-voter-fraud-1545368

So if Biden prevails, what is Sean Hannity going to be doing after January 20, 2021?

Biden and Harris will provide Hannity plenty of material to work with.  The bigger question is what will CNN and MSNBC be doing? :)
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 06, 2020, 04:18:52 pm
The bigger question is what will CNN and MSNBC be doing? :)

They found some way to fill up the hours with Obama, so they should do okay with Biden.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 04:34:31 pm
So which is it? The rate has not changed or it has.  Its a simple question.  What was the positive test rate to hospitalization rate in May compared to now?  Is it up or down?
Simple; everything is UP. And going up as the current administration follows it's usual course of doing as little as possible, blaming the states and making up lies:
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 06, 2020, 04:39:07 pm
Biden and Harris will provide Hannity plenty of material to work with.  The bigger question is what will CNN and MSNBC be doing? :)

Bigger question is what will Trump be doing from behind bars where he has nothing to tweet? His audience will be gone. No one will be paying attention to his stupidity. I think he'll implode.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 04:41:10 pm
Some people might call that bigotry.
Here's a better example from president bone spur:
There were good people on both sides.
And a few more, but hardly close to the full number of similar bigotry:
Tremendous infectious disease is pouring across the border,”  “The United States has become a dumping ground for Mexico and, in fact, for many other parts of the world.”
People from Haiti “all have AIDS”
Why are we having all these people from shithole countries come here?”
calling the disease “the Chinese virus,” (like you sir).
There is so much more, that you should have an excellent idea of bigotry from the guy who will soon be leaving the White House.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 04:43:28 pm
Simple; everything is UP. And going up as the current administration follows it's usual course of doing as little as possible, blaming the states and making up lies:

This is a simple question you still have not or don't want to answer.

Yes, cases are UP.  That's not the question.

1. Of the positive cases at the peak of the pandemic back in the spring, what percentage of them required hospitalization?

2. Of the positive cases now, what percentage of them required hospitalization?

Do you think its possible for you to actully answer this?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 04:47:47 pm
Here's a better example from president bone spur:
There were good people on both sides.
And a few more, but hardly close to the full number of similar bigotry:
Tremendous infectious disease is pouring across the border,”  “The United States has become a dumping ground for Mexico and, in fact, for many other parts of the world.”
People from Haiti “all have AIDS”
Why are we having all these people from shithole countries come here?”
calling the disease “the Chinese virus,” (like you sir).
There is so much more, that you should have an excellent idea of bigotry from the guy who will soon be leaving the White House.

Deflection again Andrew.  I'm are talking about YOU not Trump. 

This is right up there with your 'did they even make it to high school" remark. A trend is forming.




Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 04:49:00 pm
Bigger question is what will Trump be doing from behind bars where he has nothing to tweet? His audience will be gone. No one will be paying attention to his stupidity. I think he'll implode.

He just might surprise you. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 04:55:42 pm
This one is fun....

Rod Blagojevich: Dems Stealing Elections a ‘Time-Honored Tradition

https://www.breitbart.com/clips/2020/11/06/rod-blagojevich-dems-stealing-elections-a-time-honored-tradition/

Blagojevich told Newsmax TV’s “John Bachman Now” that Democratic stronghold cities changing vote counts overnight, and controlling polling places is a “time-honored tradition.” He went on to say that Democrats “stealing the presidency” is “incredibly dangerous to our democracy.”
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 04:55:56 pm
This is a simple question you still have not or don't want to answer.
Yes, cases are UP.  That's not the question.
Cases are up far more than anywhere else on the planet. Connect those dots. It's due to a massive lack of leadership at the top (where the buck used to stop).
Again, the virus is the same on the entire planet. Yet in the US, with 4 percent of the worlds population, over 20% have died. You now know the population of Canada and China, yes two vastly different countries and you now know the number of dead. So either Trump at the top is a failure or the majority of the dead Americans are stupid and died proportionally at a massively higher number than elsewhere. Why is that Craig? Are Americans and/or those leading the country just practicing malpractice? Because the numbers which are factual, speak for themselves.

Quote
1. Of the positive cases at the peak of the pandemic back in the spring, what percentage of them required hospitalization?
It doesn't really matter. We are far worse off now than then when we knew less about the virus. 1000 Americans a day on average dead.
Quote
2. Of the positive cases now, what percentage of them required hospitalization?
It doesn't really matter. We are far worse off now than then when we knew less about the virus. 1000 Americans a day on average dead. Over 100,000 infections per day last week alone.
Quote
Do you think its possible for you to actully answer this?
Lack of leadership is a big one. Because again, the virus, the humans are no different in Canada or China. The leadership IS. And the intelligence of the people who listen to the leaders. Again, Trump could have had his followers follow CDC guidance, he didn't. He could have listened to experts, he didn't. He could have actually stopped travel from China which he really didn't do by a long shot but it's the one thing he's so proud of saying he did early. You do realize that isn't' what happened.

We lead the world in sickness and death from Covid-19, that's a simple fact. Either as a country we are filled with idiots (I believe that's somewhat true) or our leaders are idiots (I believe that's mostly true) but you simply cannot deny the number of our population and the number of sick and dead let alone those who haven't fully recovered and may be scarred with disease for the rest of their life. Make America Great again? With that accomplishment; rubbish.

You will never, never admit that either a lot of Americans, or their leaders are to blame for this. You will never admit that the people in say Canada and their leaders didn't make the same mistakes. It's pointless trying to provide facts that clearly illustrate the truth. WHY should we continue? Ask all the silly questions you want. You simply cannot answer why the US is in such an awful state in this pandemic nor why we lead in infections and death worldwide.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 06, 2020, 05:02:56 pm
He just might surprise you.

I don't think so. Someone who has such a big ego as Trump that needs to be constantly stroked...right when he falls from the lime light, he disintegrates. He will be old news...a blimp many people would like to forget. There will be law suits coming after him...maybe he'll seek asylum in China or North Korea...or maybe Putin will take in this lost puppy when he ends up on Putin's doorstep.   
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 06, 2020, 05:15:38 pm
Anybody remember Steve Bannon? The last time we saw him, he was being arrested on a yacht in the North Atlantic and ferried into NYC for arraignment on charges of defrauding investors in a scheme to build some sections of wall on private property down near the border. So he made five million dollar bail, and largely disappeared from view, except for a cameo in the Hunter Biden laptop saga. Well, yesterday or the day before yesterday he got on Twitter and tweeted that Dr. Fauci and others should be beheaded. So now his lawyers in the criminal case say they would just as soon Bannon get new lawyers, which is saying something because a billable hour is a billable hour and lawyers, like most everyone, like to make money, particularly after a slow year like 2020.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/06/steve-bannon-lawyers-seek-to-withdraw-after-fauci-beheading-comment.html

Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 05:26:17 pm
Cases are up far more than anywhere else on the planet. Connect those dots. It's due to a massive lack of leadership at the top (where the buck used to stop).
Again, the virus is the same on the entire planet. Yet in the US, with 4 percent of the worlds population, over 20% have died. You now know the population of Canada and China, yes two vastly different countries and you now know the number of dead. So either Trump at the top is a failure or the majority of the dead Americans are stupid and died proportionally at a massively higher number than elsewhere. Why is that Craig? Are Americans and/or those leading the country just practicing malpractice? Because the numbers which are factual, speak for themselves.
It doesn't really matter. We are far worse off now than then when we knew less about the virus. 1000 Americans a day on average dead. It doesn't really matter. We are far worse off now than then when we knew less about the virus. 1000 Americans a day on average dead. Over 100,000 infections per day last week alone. Lack of leadership is a big one. Because again, the virus, the humans are no different in Canada or China. The leadership IS. And the intelligence of the people who listen to the leaders. Again, Trump could have had his followers follow CDC guidance, he didn't. He could have listened to experts, he didn't. He could have actually stopped travel from China which he really didn't do by a long shot but it's the one thing he's so proud of saying he did early. You do realize that isn't' what happened.

We lead the world in sickness and death from Covid-19, that's simple a fact. Either as a country we are filled with idiots (I believe that's somewhat true) or our leaders are idiots (I believe that's mostly true) but you simply cannot deny the number of our population and the number of sick and dead let alone those who haven't fully recovered and may be scarred with disease for the rest of their life. Make America Great again? With that accomplishment; rubbish.


Yes we have a lot of cases and a lot of death,  Many things to fault the the vast majority in my opinion (as I have stated many times) is the way our people have decided to live with this pandemic.  Short of locking people up they will do what they want to do.  You may not like it, quite frankly I don't either since I'm in a risk group but thats reality. I do not believe Trump ( or slowjoe ) could have changed the outcome.  We are not China and we are not Canada. 

We are not worse off now that at the begining of the Pandemic. Yes raw cases are up but hospitalizations as a percentage of positive cases is down.  Death rates are down in comparison to hospitilatizations as are the need for vents.  These are facts you don't seem to want to discuss because they do not favor you. I suspect that is why you keep trying to deflect from the tough questions.

Quote
You will never, never admit that either a lot of Americans, or their leaders are to blame for this. You will never admit that the people in say Canada and their leaders didn't make the same mistakes. It's pointless trying to provide facts that clearly illustrate the truth. WHY should we continue? Ask all the silly questions you want. You simply cannot answer why the US is in such an awful state in this pandemic nor why we lead in infections and death worldwide.

Can you read and comprehend Andrew?  Where are you getting this utter bullcrap?  I've made myself very clear. I place the bulk of the blame on the American people or at least a subset of them.  I think our system Federalism and States Rights sets us apart from other counties and has a share of the blame and yes Trump does too.  You seem to think Trump could have changed peoples behavior?  I don't think it would have mattered. Fauci and his band of merry men and woman were given ample time to explain to the country what they though needed to happen.  Govenors of their respective States developed their plan and passed them along to their citizens.  NO ONE  was restricted from hearing from any of these people. 

In the end its the PEOPLE who decide how to proceed, for good or bad. 





Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 05:29:03 pm
I don't think so. Someone who has such a big ego as Trump that needs to be constantly stroked...right when he falls from the lime light, he disintegrates. He will be old news...a blimp many people would like to forget. There will be law suits coming after him...maybe he'll seek asylum in China or North Korea...or maybe Putin will take in this lost puppy when he ends up on Putin's doorstep.

Most ex presidents fade away after they leave the White House. Thats a featue not a bug.   I suspect he will have more than enough issues to keep him busy for the next few years. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 06, 2020, 05:32:56 pm
This one is fun....

Rod Blagojevich: Dems Stealing Elections a ‘Time-Honored Tradition

https://www.breitbart.com/clips/2020/11/06/rod-blagojevich-dems-stealing-elections-a-time-honored-tradition/

Blagojevich told Newsmax TV’s “John Bachman Now” that Democratic stronghold cities changing vote counts overnight, and controlling polling places is a “time-honored tradition.” He went on to say that Democrats “stealing the presidency” is “incredibly dangerous to our democracy.”

Are you seriously quoting Breibart as a credible source of information?

For the sake of smooth communication may I kindly ask you not to forget to use smileys when you joke?

Thank you.

Now... a few pages away I was told that Trump wasn’t seriously thinking about stealing the election. That his declaration of victory was Trump being Trump, that if he ever really did his Republican voters would stop him.

5 law suits later we see Craig posting this kind of crap.

And we understand that not only are some Trump voters fine with him stealing the elections. They want him to.

Who is their pathetic attempt to disguise this as a defensive move going to convince besides themselves?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 06, 2020, 05:39:38 pm
Are you seriously quoting Breibart as a credible source of information?

I'm not sure that Breitbart is the issue so much as Blagojevich.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 06, 2020, 05:40:54 pm
Most ex presidents fade away after they leave the White House. Thats a featue not a bug.   I suspect he will have more than enough issues to keep him busy for the next few years.

Yep...prosecutors are going to be up Trump's butt for years.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 05:45:58 pm
I'm not sure that Breitbart is the issue so much as Blagojevich.

Did anyone actually notice this part of my post?

"This one is fun...."

Bernard I understand, he is clueless.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 06, 2020, 05:51:03 pm
Did anyone actually notice this part of my post?

"This one is fun...."

Bernard I understand, he is clueless.

Apologies if I misunderstood you Craig.

Your previous 1,000 posts may have contributed. ;)

Glad to know you don’t think that Democrats have done anything fraudulous.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 06, 2020, 05:52:08 pm
It seems like a lifetime ago that Trump supporters were having boat rallies. Well, they have not been forgotten. A writer at Vanity Fair had this to say:

"And what of Trump’s favorite and best children, that is, the boats? Yes, boats and boat people? The ones he invested his hopes and dreams into? Well, the boat people did not come through, not in the way he wanted. Of the five states with the highest boat ownership, Florida, California, Michigan, Minnesota, and Wisconsin, he lost four of them. That one must hurt."

https://www.vanityfair.com/style/2020/11/trumps-children-cant-believe-their-dad-is-this-despised

I don't think Trump owns a boat. He used to have a yacht named Trump Princess, which may or may not have been a reference to Ivanka, but had to sell it as a result of one of his bankruptcies in the 1990s.

In other news, my hometown is looking forward to the arrival of our first Whataburger coming this spring.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 06:03:43 pm
It seems like a lifetime ago that Trump supporters were having boat rallies. Well, they have not been forgotten. A writer at Vanity Fair had this to say:

"And what of Trump’s favorite and best children, that is, the boats? Yes, boats and boat people? The ones he invested his hopes and dreams into? Well, the boat people did not come through, not in the way he wanted. Of the five states with the highest boat ownership, Florida, California, Michigan, Minnesota, and Wisconsin, he lost four of them. That one must hurt."

https://www.vanityfair.com/style/2020/11/trumps-children-cant-believe-their-dad-is-this-despised

I don't think Trump owns a boat. He used to have a yacht named Trump Princess, which may or may not have been a reference to Ivanka, but had to sell it as a result of one of his bankruptcies in the 1990s.

In other news, my hometown is looking forward to the arrival of our first Whataburger coming this spring.

I think the Trump boat people did come through.  What was he down 17 in one poll.

Off the top of my head I think he got 220k more vote in WI than 16.  Just not enough to overcome the dem cheating. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 06, 2020, 06:06:54 pm
I think the Trump boat people did come through.  What was he down 17 in one poll.

Off the top of my head I think he got 220k more vote in WI than 16.  Just not enough to overcome the dem cheating.

Maybe. I don't know the percentage of boat owners who voted for Trump. Is boat ownership a demographic? It might be. I just thought it was kind of interesting that someone thought to make a note of it.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: MattBurt on November 06, 2020, 06:08:12 pm
Seems like if dems were cheating they would have performed better in the Senate and House races.
Also, there would be more than vague accusations and maybe some evidence.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 06, 2020, 06:29:46 pm
Are you serious?  You want to blame freedom of speach and assembly for all the Covid deaths in the US?

It's very likely that most of the infections and consequently deaths occurred due to groups of people getting close together. Some just for a barbeque, others to listen to the big leader.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: James Clark on November 06, 2020, 06:39:48 pm
In other news, my hometown is looking forward to the arrival of our first Whataburger coming this spring.

Prepare to be mildly impressed.  But the spicy ketchup IS pretty tasty.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 06:40:18 pm
It's very likely that most of the infections and consequently deaths occurred due to groups of people getting close together. Some just for a barbeque, others to listen to the big leader.
He'd like to think of himself as a big leader, but all indications are, he's compensating, even if we dismiss the size of his hands.  ;)
As for the silly comment that doesn't have a lick of proof behind it with respect to overcome the dem cheating, a few in the GOP are growing a pair and asking questions:

Sen. Ben Sasse (R-Neb.). "If the president’s legal team has real evidence, they need to present it immediately to both the public and the courts. In the meantime, all legal votes need to be counted."

Yes, immediately and real are key here.

Mitch is being Mitch, stating the obvious that many (most?) Dems agree with:
"Here’s how this must work in our great country: Every legal vote should be counted."

And the count continues. It's only 'the leader' who thinks votes for him should be counted, those against are illegal. And we still have zero proof of that of course. Putin would be proud of his prodigy.

Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 06:40:55 pm
It's very likely that most of the infections and consequently deaths occurred due to groups of people getting close together. Some just for a barbeque, others to listen to the big leader.

One study I read said the places most covid positive claimed visiting were big box stores and restaurants  prior to testing positive .  It was from some State, I just don't remenber which one.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 06, 2020, 06:42:22 pm
I would assume the funds comes from the RNC

Now, RNC needs more money for new legal fights.

Quote
“They want $60 million,” said a Republican donor who received solicitations from the campaign and the Republican National Committee (RNC).

Two other sources said the campaign wanted as much as $100 million for the joint fundraising committee it maintains with the RNC, a sign of the scale of legal fight the campaign expects to mount.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-funding-exclusive/exclusive-republicans-seeking-to-raise-at-least-60-million-to-fund-trump-legal-challenges-sources-idUSKBN27M2R0?il=0
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 06:45:14 pm
It was from some State, I just don't remenber which one.
Maybe you can remember of this one?
https://www.statnews.com/2020/10/16/trump-campaign-rallies-leave-a-trail-of-community-outbreaks/

The president has repeatedly held these gatherings not only in defiance of public health guidelines, but seemingly to spite them: downplaying the threat of the virus, eschewing basic public health principles such as wearing face coverings and packing his supporters shoulder to shoulder for political optics. Several early campaign events were indoors, such as in Tulsa, where there was a reported surge in cases afterwards. Former presidential candidate Herman Cain, who was co-chair of Black Voices for Trump and who attended the Tulsa rally without wearing a mask, tested positive for Covid-19 two days after the rally and died less than two weeks later.

More examples of his 'leadership' on Covid-19.

Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 06, 2020, 06:52:57 pm
One study I read said the places most covid positive claimed visiting were big box stores and restaurants  prior to testing positive .  It was from some State, I just don't remenber which one.

That seems to be reasonable. More people probably go to big box stores and restaurants than to Trump rallies. I stay away from big box stores and restaurants. There are people there.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 07:01:49 pm
Something fishy must have happened...

Valencia County has long streak of picking president

https://www.krqe.com/news/politics-government/elections/valencia-county-has-long-streak-of-picking-president/

NEW MEXICO (KRQE) – The nation’s eyes are on key battleground states like Pennsylvania and Florida but it turns out one New Mexico county holds the longest streak for picking the president. The answer to who will win in the 2020 presidential election may be found in Valencia County. Voters there have voted for the winner since 1952.

PRESIDENT
Valencia County
Candidate                           Votes   Percent
DONALD TRUMP Republican
                                        17,245   54.0%
JOSEPH BIDEN Democrat
                                        14,051   44.0%
Updated: 2 minutes ago
100% reporting
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 07:03:23 pm
More bad news for Trump who got infected with Covid-19 cause he is handling the virus so well.

COVID-19 can invade testicles, University of Miami researchers find. What can this mean?
November 06, 2020 05:28 PM
COVID-19 can invade tissues in the testicles in some men who are infected with the novel coronavirus, according to a new study by a team of University of Miami Miller School of Medicine researchers.
The UM study was published Tuesday in The World Journal of Men’s Health.


Or maybe it will not affect him at all. ;)
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 07:10:45 pm
Something fishy must have happened...
Nope, and as a NM resident since 94, I'm happy to report our state has been blue for awhile. Since 1992, we've only gone red once (for Bush, who in retrospect to Trump, I actually rather miss  ;D ). 
Quote
The answer to who will win in the 2020 presidential election may be found in Valencia County. Voters there have voted for the winner since 1952.
We've been voting for presidents since 1912.
Valencia County got smarter like much of the rest of the state this year?
And you'd be smart to examine how it's changed since 1952: The county, which was formerly much larger in area, lost almost 81 percent of its territory in 1981, upon the creation of Cibola County.
Nothing fishy, facts....
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 07:19:39 pm
Nope, and as a NM resident since 94, I'm happy to report our state has been blue for awhile. Since 1992, we've only gone red once (for Bush, who in retrospect to Trump, I actually rather miss  ;D ).  We've been voting for presidents since 1912.
Valencia County got smarter like much of the rest of the state this year?
And you'd be smart to examine how it's changed since 1952: The county, which was formerly much larger in area, lost almost 81 percent of its territory in 1981, upon the creation of Cibola County.
Nothing fishy, facts....

Fact is that the county voted for the eventual president since 1952....something changed. It might not have been Valencia which voted 54 Trump to 44 Biden.  So they got smarter?  roflmao!
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 07:24:07 pm
Fact is that the county voted for the eventual president since 1952....something changed.
YES something changed; nearly 4 years with the worst President in modern times.
Currently the facts; Biden has 4 million more votes than Trump. Yeah; something changed. Thankfully.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 07:31:10 pm
YES something changed; nearly 4 years with the worst President in modern times.
Currently the facts; Biden has 4 million more votes than Trump. Yeah; something changed. Thankfully.

Worst?  Really? How did your 401K do prior to the china virus? Your business? Your property values?  Economy in you area? 

I was really happy on all counts, plus the added bonus of three SCOTUS seats and 300 Federal judges.  Not to mention some decent new trade deals.  Then of course YMMV....

I sure hope you are ready financially for the pain Biden and company wants to bring your way.  BTW, most of those 4 million votes are from California alone and of course its a meaningless metric. 

Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 07:48:55 pm
401K and property values are meaningless to the 230 thousand dead.
I'd be happy to make $400,000 a year or more and pay additional tax.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 06, 2020, 07:50:02 pm
1.  Are the positive test results to hospital cases rates falling since the start of the pandemic?
2.  Are the hospitilization rates to intensive care case rates falling since the start of the pandemic?
3.  Are the use of ventilators in intensive care cases falling since the start of the pandimic?
4.  Are doctors providing better treatment options since the start of the pandemic?
5.  Are there better therapeutic treatments available or soon to be available since the start of the pandemic?
6   Are vaccines closer to being available since the start of the pandemic?
7.  Are death rates from Covid lower now since the start of the pandemic?

Infection and death rates in USA are not falling. The numbers for the last 3 days are as follows:
Nov5 - 105,554   1,200
Nov6 - 123,718   1,154
Nov7 - 128,314   1,205   132,540   1,248

The numbers in Canada are also on a rise, but nothing compared to USA.

Stay at home and keep your mask on.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 08:00:04 pm
Infection and death rates in USA are not falling. The numbers for the last 3 days are as follows:
Nov5 - 105,554   1,200
Nov6 - 123,718   1,154
Nov7 - 128,314   1,205

The numbers in Canada are also on a rise, but nothing compared to USA.

Stay at home and keep your mask on.

I never said infection rates and death rates are falling.   
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 08:04:05 pm
401K and property values are meaningless to the 230 thousand dead.
I'd be happy to make $400,000 a year or more and pay additional tax.

Perhaps we are lucky it’s only 230K. 

You think people are going to pay more taxes if you make over 400k?  If the Trump tax cuts get reversed, a whole boatload of people who own businesses and make less than 400k will pay higher taxes, I know I’m one of them.   Are you a pass through business?  If so, you will,too.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 08:05:35 pm
Infection and death rates in USA are not falling. The numbers for the last 3 days are as follows:
Nov5 - 105,554   1,200
Nov6 - 123,718   1,154
Nov7 - 128,314   1,205

The numbers in Canada are also on a rise, but nothing compared to USA.

Stay at home and keep your mask on.
Yeah, USA is tops in a very bad way.
Staying home/masks: amen!
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 08:07:42 pm
Perhaps we are lucky it’s only 230K. 

You think people are going to pay more taxes if you make over 400k?  If the Trump tax cuts get reversed, a whole boatload of people who own businesses and make less than 400k will pay higher taxes, I know I’m one of them.   Are you a pass through business?  If so, you will,too.
Unlucky from deliberate malpractice from the current government.
I have no problem if taxes go up; none. Unlike Trump who paid next to nothing recently.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 08:17:42 pm
Unlucky from deliberate malpractice from the current government.
I have no problem if taxes go up; none. Unlike Trump who paid next to nothing recently.

Well we will never know will we ?  Your opinion on Deliberate and malpractice are duly noted as opinion.

It I remember correctly the NYT stated Trump prepaid over 5 Million in Taxes for the years in question.

And if you are somebody happy to see taxes go up have you forgiven your your Federal tax deductions in the last few years, or ever?  If not your claim appears to be empty rhetoric.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 08:33:09 pm
It I remember correctly the NYT stated Trump prepaid over 5 Million in Taxes for the years in question.
Your memory is faulty:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/29/us/trump-750-taxes.html
Trump Paid $750 in Federal Income Taxes in 2017. Here’s the Math.
I'm happy to see taxes go up if well spent. My taxes ending up in Trump's pocket, not at all:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/danalexander/2020/09/11/trumps-businesses-raked-in-19-billion-of-revenue-during-his-first-three-years-in-office/?sh=5393b3c51e13
Trump’s Businesses Raked In $1.9 Billion Of Revenue During His First Three Years In Office
https://www.npr.org/2019/08/26/754485105/a-look-at-president-trumps-history-of-profiting-off-his-presidency
A Look At President Trump's History Of Profiting Off His Presidency
And no, I don't expect you'll read or accept that he's lined his tiny pockets with yours and my hard earned tax dollars.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Chris Kern on November 06, 2020, 08:34:20 pm
And the count continues. It's only 'the leader' who thinks votes for him should be counted, those against are illegal. And we still have zero proof of that of course. Putin would be proud of his prodigy.

Lumpy Trumptweet sat on The Wall.
Lumpy Trumptweet had a great fall.
All Putin's hackers and Rudy's con men
Cannot hoist Trumptweet back up there again.

(Apologies to the Digital Dog for the digital doggerel.)
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 08:38:05 pm
Your memory is faulty:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/29/us/trump-750-taxes.html
Trump Paid $750 in Federal Income Taxes in 2017. Here’s the Math.
I'm happy to see taxes go up if well spent. My taxes ending up in Trump's pocket, not at all:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/danalexander/2020/09/11/trumps-businesses-raked-in-19-billion-of-revenue-during-his-first-three-years-in-office/?sh=5393b3c51e13
Trump’s Businesses Raked In $1.9 Billion Of Revenue During His First Three Years In Office
https://www.npr.org/2019/08/26/754485105/a-look-at-president-trumps-history-of-profiting-off-his-presidency
A Look At President Trump's History Of Profiting Off His Presidency
And no, I don't expect you'll read or accept that he's lined his tiny pockets with yours and my hard earned tax dollars.

Read NYT article.  You might actually learn something, but my opinion is that’s a long shot
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 08:45:46 pm
Read NYT article.
I did read it; the facts you have ignored again: Trump paid $750 in taxes in 2017 just as I started.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 08:55:54 pm
I did read it; the facts you have ignored again: Trump paid $750 in taxes in 2017 just as I started.

No, actually he paid over  7 million

Let the NYT explain it to you.

The math behind the $750 tax filing

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/29/us/trump-750-taxes.html

But tax laws gave him one more line on which to reduce the A.M.T. Mr. Trump had $22.7 million in General Business Credit, much of it carried forward from prior years, that he could apply. The credit is a smorgasbord of tax incentives and givebacks to business owners, and in Mr. Trump’s case they ranged from credits of $322,926 for Social Security and Medicare taxes paid on employee tips to at least $1.5 million related to rehabilitating the Old Post Office in Washington.

The business credit cannot be used to get a refund; it can only be applied against taxes owed. Mr. Trump had more than enough to cancel out his $7,435,857 tax bill. But on the Form 3800 for the General Business Credit, his accountants subtracted $750 from his allowable credit. Why they did that is not clear. But the result was a total federal income tax liability of $750.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 09:02:15 pm
Lost again:
But the result was a total federal income tax liability of $750.
It is rude to silence a fool, and cruelty to let him go on. 

Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Robert Roaldi on November 06, 2020, 09:05:42 pm
Anybody remember Steve Bannon? The last time we saw him, he was being arrested on a yacht in the North Atlantic and ferried into NYC for arraignment on charges of defrauding investors in a scheme to build some sections of wall on private property down near the border. So he made five million dollar bail, and largely disappeared from view, except for a cameo in the Hunter Biden laptop saga. Well, yesterday or the day before yesterday he got on Twitter and tweeted that Dr. Fauci and others should be beheaded. So now his lawyers in the criminal case say they would just as soon Bannon get new lawyers, which is saying something because a billable hour is a billable hour and lawyers, like most everyone, like to make money, particularly after a slow year like 2020.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/06/steve-bannon-lawyers-seek-to-withdraw-after-fauci-beheading-comment.html

I get political differences, they are normal. But what did Fauci do to anyone to deserve beheading? Over the top doesn't begin to cover it. How can it that terrible a thing to disagree with Trump? People disagree with sitting Presidents all the time, don't they, why is Trump sacred to so many people, makes no sense to me. This is all cult-like behaviour though, isn't it, irrational, impervious to facts, violence (virtual at least) towards "outsiders", glorifying a leader figure, etc.

I tried watching the Errol Morris interview with Bannon a few months ago, American Dharma, but I didn't make it to the end. Bannon just isn't interesting enough. Good interview about the film here btw, https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/11/5/20943437/errol-morris-interview-steve-bannon-american-dharma (https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/11/5/20943437/errol-morris-interview-steve-bannon-american-dharma).
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 09:07:02 pm
I did read it; the facts you have ignored again: Trump paid $750 in taxes in 2017 just as I started.

Oh, from the NYT piece,

Prepayment of 5 million in taxes by Trump..

Here’s a screencap from the actual NYT report:



Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 09:12:01 pm
https://www.businessinsider.com/personal-finance/how-tax-code-allowed-president-trump-taxes-2020-9
President Donald Trump paid only $750 in federal income tax in 2016 and the same amount in 2017. The report goes on to say he paid no federal income tax at all in 10 of the previous 15 years.

How is that possible? How could a man worth more than $2 billion (according to some sources) pay so little in taxes for so many years?

Well, one answer is to lose money. A lot of money.

He is good at doing that indeed!
He paid what I said he paid! I never said it was illegal. He is a weezel.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 09:13:01 pm
Lost again:
But the result was a total federal income tax liability of $750.
It is rude to silence a fool, and cruelty to let him go on.

No, he paid his 7million tax liability...from the AMT, with a tax credit which is his money but can only be used to pay a TAX DEBT.  Which he paid. 

Yes, you are looking really foolish and by no means do I want to stop you from continuing. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 09:17:21 pm
https://www.businessinsider.com/personal-finance/how-tax-code-allowed-president-trump-taxes-2020-9
President Donald Trump paid only $750 in federal income tax in 2016 and the same amount in 2017. The report goes on to say he paid no federal income tax at all in 10 of the previous 15 years.

How is that possible? How could a man worth more than $2 billion (according to some sources) pay so little in taxes for so many years?

Well, one answer is to lose money. A lot of money.

He is good at doing that indeed!
He paid what I said he paid! I never said it was illegal. He is a weezel.

No, he paid 7 plus million, as Alternative Minimum Tax which cannot be reduced by business losses.  He paid his tax, all except for $750 with his General  Business Credit.  He paid over 7 million in taxes.

Quit digging Andrew, you have nothing left to stand on. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Frans Waterlander on November 06, 2020, 09:52:18 pm
https://www.businessinsider.com/personal-finance/how-tax-code-allowed-president-trump-taxes-2020-9
President Donald Trump paid only $750 in federal income tax in 2016 and the same amount in 2017. The report goes on to say he paid no federal income tax at all in 10 of the previous 15 years.

How is that possible? How could a man worth more than $2 billion (according to some sources) pay so little in taxes for so many years?

Well, one answer is to lose money. A lot of money.

He is good at doing that indeed!
He paid what I said he paid! I never said it was illegal. He is a weezel.
A weezel? Quote from the linked article: "...the tax code that's working as intended". Using the tax code as intended makes you a weasel? Explain that, if you will. Oh, never mind: severe case of TDS!
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: John Camp on November 06, 2020, 09:59:12 pm
A weezel? Quote from the linked article: "...the tax code that's working as intended". Using the tax code as intended makes you a weasel? Explain that, if you will. Oh, never mind: severe case of TDS!

A ferret with emphysema. Which is a pretty good description of Trump, IMHO.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 06, 2020, 09:59:30 pm
No, he paid 7 plus million, as Alternative Minimum Tax which cannot be reduced by business losses.  He paid his tax, all except for $750 with his General  Business Credit.  He paid over 7 million in taxes.

I haven’t really been following Trump’s taxes, but remember that he and the IRS have been fighting over some big credit he claimed 10-15 years ago. Is the credit he took in 2016 a carry-over credit from the credit in dispute?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 10:02:41 pm
A weezel?
Try the ”google machine” Frans.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 06, 2020, 10:33:17 pm
I haven’t really been following Trump’s taxes, but remember that he and the IRS have been fighting over some big credit he claimed 10-15 years ago. Is the credit he took in 2016 a carry-over credit from the credit in dispute?

No I don’t believe so.

But for Andrews edification...

Let’s say you  work your taxes and find your bottom line tax due is $5000.  This is after all your business and personal deductions.

You have a estimated tax payment credit of $4250.

Your $5000 tax due is now reduced to $750 by applying your credit

$750 is listed as your underpayment

Your bottom line tax due is $750


So did you only pay $750 in taxes for that year or did you actually pay $5000?

Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 10:34:52 pm
A weezel? Quote from the linked article: "...the tax code that's working as intended". Using the tax code as intended makes you a weasel? Explain that, if you will. Oh, never mind: severe case of TDS!
Wouldn't your ”valuable” time be more constructively spent on a new hobby; perhaps photography?  ;D Still waiting on seeing an image you made, (sorry, too much to ask), how about a photograph you've taken. This is still a web site/forums dedicated to photography. Noise of any kind, from a lack of sensor heat IS acceptable.
Goota go, the next president of the United States is about to speak. Get snapping.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 06, 2020, 11:16:44 pm
When it rains, it pours; Trumps chief of staff Mark (I don't need no stinkin mask) Meadows has Coronavirus.
Who is writing the Trump show? Cliffhanger ending.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 07, 2020, 10:15:42 am
Now, RNC needs more money for new legal fights.

I read about this yesterday. Apparently, 50-60% of each dollar donated to the legal fund is being used to pay down campaign debt. The Trump campaign must has really burned through that billion dollars. Let's say Biden spent an equal amount. That's two billion dollars. Somebody is getting rich.

Speaking of rich, Brad Parscale, Trump's former campaign manager, who you may remember was taken into custody one night a couple of weeks ago, for being drunk, waving a gun around, and depending on who you believe, threatening suicide, threatening his wife, or pretending he was at a Jimmy Buffett concert*, appeared in court trying to prevent his psychiatric records being released to the prosecution who wanted to review them in an action to take his eleven guns away for a year. Only the best people.

* This is not a joke. This is how his lawyer characterized his behavior on the night in question at the hearing.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 07, 2020, 10:23:11 am
No, he paid 7 plus million, as Alternative Minimum Tax which cannot be reduced by business losses.  He paid his tax, all except for $750 with his General  Business Credit.  He paid over 7 million in taxes.

Let's say he paid seven million in taxes and that was the legal amount he owed. Is seven million a fair tax for his income? I don't find fault for taking all legal deductions and credits, but it seems like maybe a few revisions to the tax code would be in order.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 07, 2020, 11:32:15 am
The ”fat lady” has sung; Trumps soon to be unemployed.
New Attorney General of the USA? Hillary could lock him up IF the ”Trump show” ends well.  ;D
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Jim Pascoe on November 07, 2020, 11:57:15 am
Biden to be the next President of the USA!!

It's now reported on the BBC so it must be true.  I've not been on the forum for a few weeks so missed out on all the locked threads etc.  The world can now breathe a collective sigh of relief that the US has a president that can at last be taken seriously again, and take it's place once more as a nation to be respected.

Yesterday Trump was reported as being very unhappy that he was not getting more moral support from Republican leaders.  Well they'll quite rightly now desert him like rats from a sinking ship.  It's the 50% of the US electorate who voted for him that I feel sorry for.  A good number of them will have been lured by Trump's ridiculous lies and empty promises. 

We went for a lovely 27 mile cycle through the New Forest today.  It was mild for November (15 C) and the autumn trees looked beautiful.  Arriving home to hear the US election news has ended the day on a really high note.  I feel I can sleep more soundly now, and that' in spite of our own Covid and Brexit problems.

Best wishes to you all in the US - Democrats and Republicans.

Jim

Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: stamper on November 07, 2020, 12:01:50 pm
The world is now a safer place.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 07, 2020, 12:08:33 pm
The world is now a safer place.
Hold on. Trump can do massive amount of damage until January. I predict he will:
Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: KLaban on November 07, 2020, 12:39:14 pm
Here in the UK The BBC, The Telegraph, The Gaurdian and The Times all project Biden as the next President of the USA.

Congratulations America!
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: MattBurt on November 07, 2020, 12:43:16 pm
Whew, what a relief.
His message of unity is inspiring. He has a long uphill battle ahead but I'm really happy to see the tone changing already.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 07, 2020, 12:48:32 pm
The world is now a safer place.

Also less agitated. However, Trump is still not believing it.

Quote
Trump, who has made repeated claims of electoral fraud without providing proof, immediately accused Biden of “rushing to falsely pose as the winner.”
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 07, 2020, 12:54:16 pm
Here in the UK The BBC, The Telegraph, The Gaurdian and The Times all project Biden as the next President of the USA.

Congratulations America!

Great news! Hopefully, soon we'll be able to cross the border and Visit America Again.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 07, 2020, 12:59:18 pm
It seems to me that if you were going to fight this election to the bitter end, you might want to be meeting with your advisors and lawyers and working on crafting a strategic plan, rather than being on the golf course undoubtedly cheating your way around eighteen holes, and tweeting "I WON THIS ELECTION, BY A LOT!". And can anyone explain why Giuliani and friends are announcing their upcoming legal efforts at a landscaping business in an industrial section of Philadelphia? Seems pretty whackadoodle to me.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 07, 2020, 01:02:12 pm
It seems to me that if you were going to fight this election to the bitter end, you might want to meet with you advisors and lawyers and work on crafting a strategic plan, rather than being on the golf course undoubtedly cheating your way around eighteen holes. And can anyone explain why Giuliani and friends are announcing their legal efforts underway and to come at a landscaping business in an industrial section of Philadelphia?

Could be that this is their last opportunity to charge more billable hours.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Chairman Bill on November 07, 2020, 01:24:52 pm
Well done, USA; you've stepped back from fascism.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: William Walker on November 07, 2020, 01:39:34 pm
Well done America!

I certainly hope that you can start to heal your divisions...
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on November 07, 2020, 01:48:33 pm
Hold on. Trump can do massive amount of damage until January. I predict he will:
Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

I agree, the "scorched earth" danger looms.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 07, 2020, 02:31:12 pm
Let's say he paid seven million in taxes and that was the legal amount he owed. Is seven million a fair tax for his income? I don't find fault for taking all legal deductions and credits, but it seems like maybe a few revisions to the tax code would be in order.

What is a "fair tax"?  If you comply with the tax laws its fair.  Congress can pass laws to change the tax code if they want.  Its on their table.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 07, 2020, 02:33:44 pm
The world is now a safer place.

Seriously?

How many wars did Trump start?  How many new peace deals are happening?

I'm simply curious why Trump made the world more dangerous than what Biden may bring?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 07, 2020, 02:35:26 pm
It seems to me that if you were going to fight this election to the bitter end, you might want to be meeting with your advisors and lawyers and working on crafting a strategic plan, rather than being on the golf course undoubtedly cheating your way around eighteen holes, and tweeting "I WON THIS ELECTION, BY A LOT!". And can anyone explain why Giuliani and friends are announcing their upcoming legal efforts at a landscaping business in an industrial section of Philadelphia? Seems pretty whackadoodle to me.

Last I heard telephones and zoom were still working after the press called the election for Biden.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 07, 2020, 02:49:16 pm
Well done America!

I certainly hope that you can start to heal your divisions...

Amazing, the left has called Trump voters everything in the book and now you want us to just say oh well, lets all play nice now?

Anyone who thinks thats happening must be shooting heroin in Oregons new drug pleasure dome. Or maybe its LSD...
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: John Camp on November 07, 2020, 02:50:44 pm
Hold on. Trump can do massive amount of damage until January. I predict he will:
Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

You know, I don't think he can. All those people around him who have jobs that they're about to lose, know that clinging to Trump isn't going to do their subsequent careers any good. The Postmaster General, for example, is probably going to have to leave the country after the postal service slow-walked tens of thousands of mail-in votes. I think the model for this is Rudy Giuliani, who virtually everyone sees as an obsequious, lying, shitheel. I mean, who'll even let him in the house? The Republicans in Congress know that they're going to have to live with what he does next, and so will try to mute anything too offensive. As I see it, what will happen now is that Trump may do his bull-in-a-china shop act, but as for any real impact, I don't see it, outside, perhaps, a few dozen undeserved pardons for the criminals who surround him. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 07, 2020, 02:51:05 pm
Seriously?

How many wars did Trump start?  How many new peace deals are happening?

I'm simply curious why Trump made the world more dangerous than what Biden may bring?

Just off the press - Spiegel, Germany

Quote
The US election has been decided. Joe Biden wins, a terrible time is finally coming to an end. This is a great opportunity for the country and the whole world if the new president seizes it.

Most world leaders share a similar sentiment.

Quote
CANADIAN PRIME MINISTER JUSTIN TRUDEAU
“On behalf of the Government of Canada, I congratulate Joe Biden and Kamala Harris on their election as the next President and Vice President of the United States of America. Canada and the United States enjoy an extraordinary relationship – one that is unique on the world stage.”
“I look forward to working with President-elect Biden, Vice President-elect Harris, their administration, and the United States Congress as we tackle the world’s greatest challenges together.”

GERMAN CHANCELLOR ANGELA MERKEL
“I look forward to future cooperation with President Biden. Our transatlantic friendship is irreplaceable if we are to master the great challenges of our time.”

BRITISH PRIME MINISTER BORIS JOHNSON
“Congratulations to Joe Biden on his election as President of the United States and to Kamala Harris on her historic achievement.
“The U.S. is our most important ally and I look forward to working closely together on our shared priorities, from climate change to trade and security.”

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-global-leaders-factbox/global-leaders-react-to-joe-bidens-election-win-idUSKBN27N0OZ
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 07, 2020, 02:51:29 pm
A great American tragedy!

After hundreds of years of being the beacon of the free world, America has finally succumbed to communism. Expect purges to begin soon. The Bartender-in-Chief is already compiling lists of Trump supporters who will soon be stripped of their livelihood. Guns will be confiscated, police decimated, we left defenseless against our communist overlords. I weep today for the real America.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 07, 2020, 02:58:47 pm
What is a "fair tax"?  If you comply with the tax laws its fair.  Congress can pass laws to change the tax code if they want.  Its on their table.

I guess that is what needs to be determined...did Trump comply with the tax laws?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 07, 2020, 02:59:56 pm
Seriously?

How many wars did Trump start?  How many new peace deals are happening?

I'm simply curious why Trump made the world more dangerous than what Biden may bring?

Don't need to look outside the states...look at the unrest internally since Trump has been in office.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 07, 2020, 03:02:43 pm
A great American tragedy!

After hundreds of years of being the beacon of the free world, America has finally succumbed to communism. Expect purges to begin soon. The Bartender-in-Chief is already compiling lists of Trump supporters who will soon be stripped of their livelihood. Guns will be confiscated, police decimated, we left defenseless against our communist overlords. I weep today for the real America.

Communism? Joe Biden? Really? With a probable Republican majority in the Senate? Aren't Republicans saying that a Biden legislative agenda is DOA?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 07, 2020, 03:30:05 pm
Communism? Joe Biden? Really?
Really no; rubbish yes.
Meanwhile, the Commander-in-chief is making a mockery of our democratic system of voting. The hypocrisy of suggesting Biden is a communist while Trump rants with no proof of widespread voting fraud, all while snuggles with guys like Putin and Kim (to name only two) simply shows the depth of the unreality bubble some wear around themselves.   
Ignore them, we've won.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 07, 2020, 04:04:50 pm
Just off the press - Spiegel, Germany

Most world leaders share a similar sentiment.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-global-leaders-factbox/global-leaders-react-to-joe-bidens-election-win-idUSKBN27N0OZ

What do you expect them to say? 

In any case you failed to answer a simply question, Why is the world a safer place?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 07, 2020, 04:08:03 pm
I guess that is what needs to be determined...did Trump comply with the tax laws?

Thats the domain of the IRS in regards to Federal taxes and the Tax department of the State of New York for State taxes.  Both already have all of Trumps Tax information, and they have it every year.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 07, 2020, 04:09:12 pm
Last I heard telephones and zoom were still working after the press called the election for Biden.

I guess I am showing my age. It didn't strike me as optimal. I guess Rudy has it all under control.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 07, 2020, 04:09:55 pm
Don't need to look outside the states...look at the unrest internally since Trump has been in office.

Why, because the libs have gone apeshit crazy because was elected?  Maybe its time to return the favor?  Who knows.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 07, 2020, 04:13:37 pm
I guess I am showing my age. It didn't strike me as optimal. I guess Rudy has it all under control.

We really don't know what is happening and I suspect Trump and his team want it that way until the suits are files.  Rudy is the a mouthpiece, he will not be handling the lawyering.

I have no doubts Trump will lose his cases.  I suspect he does too.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 07, 2020, 04:14:50 pm
Really no; rubbish yes.
Meanwhile, the Commander-in-chief is making a mockery of our democratic system of voting. The hypocrisy of suggesting Biden is a communist while Trump rants with no proof of widespread voting fraud, all while snuggles with guys like Putin and Kim (to name only two) simply shows the depth of the unreality bubble some wear around themselves.   
Ignore them, we've won.

Yea, now it your turn to fail.  I can't wait to watch.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 07, 2020, 04:16:44 pm
Leadership and the lack of it:
Trump (inauguration):
"This American carnage stops right here and stops right now,”

Biden today:
“I am honored and humbled by the trust the American people have placed in me and in Vice President-elect Harris. In the face of unprecedented obstacles, a record number of Americans voted. Proving once again, that democracy beats deep in the heart of America. With the campaign over, it’s time to put the anger and the harsh rhetoric behind us and come together as a nation. It’s time for America to unite. And to heal.
We are the United States of America. And there’s nothing we can’t do, if we do it together.”

All America's can now pick which way to move forward.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 07, 2020, 04:23:06 pm
Leadership and the lack of it:
Trump (inauguration):
"This American carnage stops right here and stops right now,”

Biden today:
“I am honored and humbled by the trust the American people have placed in me and in Vice President-elect Harris. In the face of unprecedented obstacles, a record number of Americans voted. Proving once again, that democracy beats deep in the heart of America. With the campaign over, it’s time to put the anger and the harsh rhetoric behind us and come together as a nation. It’s time for America to unite. And to heal.
We are the United States of America. And there’s nothing we can’t do, if we do it together.”

All America's can now pick which way to move forward.

And they will, you can count on it.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 07, 2020, 04:25:34 pm
Why, because the libs have gone apeshit crazy because was elected?  Maybe its time to return the favor?  Who knows.

Slow down...take a deep breath.

Personally it's refreshing to see the people dancing in the streets all over the US today compared to the riots and militia carrying guns in the streets we've seen over the last few months.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 07, 2020, 04:30:30 pm
Slow down...take a deep breath.

Personally it's refreshing to see the people dancing in the streets all over the US today compared to the riots and militia carrying guns in the streets we've seen over the last few months.

Those are most likely the same people who protested and caused the riots in the last few months. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 07, 2020, 04:32:07 pm
Those are most likely the same people who protested and caused the riots in the last few months.

I highly doubt that. Didn't see a single gun in the crowd.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 07, 2020, 04:34:50 pm
I highly doubt that. Didn't see a single gun in the crowd.

Oh thats really funny!  You don't watch much US tv do you? Or you watch the wrong channels.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 07, 2020, 04:36:54 pm
What do you expect them to say? 

You are right, they would have said something similar even if Trump won. But with Biden, at least they didn't have to lie.

Quote
In any case you failed to answer a simply question, Why is the world a safer place?

For one thing, there will be fewer people running around with a high blood pressure. I already feel safer and more relaxed.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 07, 2020, 04:37:56 pm
Slow down...take a deep breath.

Personally it's refreshing to see the people dancing in the streets all over the US today compared to the riots and militia carrying guns in the streets we've seen over the last few months.
Indeed. And seeing this example of a leader who comes across as a nice, decent and compassionate human. So refreshing and worth dancing to.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 07, 2020, 04:38:41 pm
Worst?  Really? How did your 401K do prior to the china virus? Your business? Your property values?  Economy in you area? 

Among the many objections you have always carefully avoided answering is that of the role of the President has a leader and commander in chief.

In the actual US, not in your version of the country, the President is expected to lead in case of crisis and to take responsibility for his actions.

The very wording « China virus » is essentially un-American.

Compare the death toll in the US to that of its closest economic rivals: Germany, China, Japan, Korea. The US is between 3 and 100 times higher. Including countries with much stronger ties to China who kept their borders open for months.

Trump’s response to the virus killed the US economy, not the virus.

I can agree with you that Trump, when he starts with a booming economy left by Obama, and if he doesn’t face any challenge requiring leadership and decisiveness, can probably have good economic results. But a Democrat building on the heritage of Obama would have done just as well without making gifts to the super rich.

Trump killed the economy and that’s why the Fortune magazine had already said, long before the virus « why Trump is bad for business », they knew that a good business environment is one where stability and sound policies are in place, based on facts, listening to the latest science, fighting for unity and not racial division,... everything Trump wasn’t.

Btw, my opinion remains that you, as a very vocal an unconditional supporter
of Trump, shares à responsibility in everything that went wrong as a result of his presidency.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 07, 2020, 04:42:41 pm
The very wording « China virus » is essentially un-American.

I am no supporter of Trump, but I have to ask you, as a Belgian if I am not mistaken, why you think you are the arbiter of what is American or un-American?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 07, 2020, 04:44:25 pm
We really don't know what is happening and I suspect Trump and his team want it that way until the suits are files.  Rudy is the a mouthpiece, he will not be handling the lawyering.

I have no doubts Trump will lose his cases.  I suspect he does too.

In addition, Trump will be busy fighting all new suits and accusations that will pop up after he loses the presidential immunity.

Quote
Since taking office in January 2017, President Donald Trump has been besieged by civil lawsuits and criminal investigations of his inner circle.
With Democrat Joe Biden capturing the presidency on Saturday, according to all major U.S. television networks, Trump’s legal woes are likely to deepen because in January he will lose the protections the U.S. legal system affords to a sitting president, former prosecutors said.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-trump-probes-explainer/explainer-citizen-trump-will-face-legal-woes-idUSKBN27N0SS?il=0
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 07, 2020, 04:48:25 pm
Oh thats really funny!  You don't watch much US tv do you? Or you watch the wrong channels.

You watch the wrong channels Craig.

A close friend leaves in Seattle and his experience was totally different from what Fox portrayed.

There were certainly some initial violent reactions, unacceptable for sure. But:
- nobody knows who perpetrated the most violent acts, actual protesters or Trump milices attempting to make protesters look violent. Your guess is as good as mine but looking at the way Trump tried to steal the elections it seems highly possible that he orchestrated violence to blame democrats. I am sure you’d agree with me that this possibility cannot be ruled out
- Fox and right winged media (a tiny minority) clearly emphasized some isolated events to spread fear among their viewers

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 07, 2020, 04:54:04 pm
I am no supporter of Trump, but I have to ask you, as a Belgian if I am not mistaken, why you think you are the arbiter of what is American or un-American?

Oh I am not, but I am a fan of America. I have always been. And I believe that I am entitled to an opinion of what is American vs what’s not, right?

I have visited the country, have many American friends and I believe I have a fair understanding of American values and history.

And most certainly, leading and taking responsibility appear to be two central and essential characteristics of the American culture, in particular among Republicans, that I have a lot of respect and admiration for. They are tightly connected to entrepreneurship.

So I believe that many Americans would agree that blaming one’s failures on others isn’t American.

And we all know that « china virus » used by Trump didn’t only mean « virus originated from China » but meant « not my fault ».



Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 07, 2020, 04:54:36 pm
You watch the wrong channels Craig.

A close friend leaves in Seattle and his experience was totally different from what Fox portrayed.

There were certainly some initial violent reactions, unacceptable for sure. But:
- nobody knows who perpetrated the most violent acts, actual protesters or Trump milices attempting to make protesters look violent. Your guess is as good as mine but looking at the way Trump tried to steal the elections it seems highly possible that he orchestrated violence to blame democrats. I am sure you’d agree with me that this possibility cannot be ruled out
- Fox and right winged media (a tiny minority) clearly emphasized some isolated events to spread fear among their viewers

Cheers,
Bernard

How much US TV do you watch every day?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 07, 2020, 04:54:46 pm
I am no supporter of Trump, but I have to ask you, as a Belgian if I am not mistaken, why you think you are the arbiter of what is American or un-American?
I am an American and agree it's un-American bordering on racist. I'm not alone as an American:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/03/20/coronavirus-trump-chinese-virus/%3foutputType=amp

“It’s racist and it creates xenophobia,” Harvey Dong, a lecturer in Asian American and Asian diaspora studies with the University of California at Berkeley, told The Post. “It’s a very dangerous situation.”

Scores of Asian Americans nationwide have already reported being targeted in verbal and physical attacks linked to coronavirus fears.


Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Chairman Bill on November 07, 2020, 04:57:40 pm
A great American tragedy!

After hundreds of years of being the beacon of the free world, America has finally succumbed to communism. Expect purges to begin soon. The Bartender-in-Chief is already compiling lists of Trump supporters who will soon be stripped of their livelihood. Guns will be confiscated, police decimated, we left defenseless against our communist overlords. I weep today for the real America.

I do so love satire.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 07, 2020, 04:58:57 pm
So I believe that many Americans would agree that blaming one’s failures on others isn’t American.

I believe a propensity to blame others for one's own failures or not is not a national characteristic but a personal characteristic. How do Belgians feel about a person blaming others for his own failures?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: John Camp on November 07, 2020, 05:02:20 pm
A great American tragedy!

After hundreds of years of being the beacon of the free world, America has finally succumbed to communism. Expect purges to begin soon. The Bartender-in-Chief is already compiling lists of Trump supporters who will soon be stripped of their livelihood. Guns will be confiscated, police decimated, we left defenseless against our communist overlords. I weep today for the real America.

Okay, Slobo finally jumped the shark.  :o
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 07, 2020, 05:04:23 pm
Okay, Slobo finally jumped the shark.  :o

I am kind of wondering if he has got his daughter on the next flight out to Serbia.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 07, 2020, 05:09:02 pm
Oh thats really funny!  You don't watch much US tv do you? Or you watch the wrong channels.

I watch Mash, Gilligan's Island and Green Acres everyday if possible. I miss WKRP in Cincinnati terribly since it was taken off my channel package. These all come in on American channels.

Now...are you glued to that truthful FOX news daily...hourly...getting the real scoop on things.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Peter McLennan on November 07, 2020, 05:12:42 pm
Okay, Slobo finally jumped the shark.  :o

Yea, now it your turn to fail.  I can't wait to watch.

Jumped the shark indeed. 

Unlike Lamson, who apparently can't wait to witness failure in his own country.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 07, 2020, 05:20:07 pm
How much US TV do you watch every day?

If he doesn't watch US TV, he isn't missing much.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 07, 2020, 05:20:30 pm
I believe a propensity to blame others for one's own failures or not is not a national characteristic but a personal characteristic. How do Belgians feel about a person blaming others for his own failures?

I happen to think that countries (and companies also btw) are not all identical. They feature a thing called culture. This culture is shaped over centuries by various aspects including the natural environment, religion, past leaders (political, artistic, sports,...),...

There are certainly important personal differences also and one is only influenced by his cultural environment.

So to answer your question I do believe that there is, unfortunately, in Belgium an overall tendency to be jalous of the success of others and to blame lack of luck for one’s failures. Not everyone falls for it obviously.

And I believe, from thousands of touch points, that taking responsibility is part of the American cultural tool kit. Again especially among people describing themselves as Republicans, which as we know clearly has nothing to do with Trumpism.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 07, 2020, 05:26:25 pm
Jumped the shark indeed. 

Unlike Lamson, who apparently can't wait to witness failure in his own country.

No I can't wait to witness the failure of the Harris presidency's agenda. I hope America survives if god forbid she is suscessful.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 07, 2020, 05:28:20 pm
I watch Mash, Gilligan's Island and Green Acres everyday if possible. I miss WKRP in Cincinnati terribly since it was taken off my channel package. These all come in on American channels.

Now...are you glued to that truthful FOX news daily...hourly...getting the real scoop on things.


Well that programing seems to fit you very well.
No I don't watch much cable or network news  I prefer to read, But I do like to watch Martha and Tucker if I have time.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 07, 2020, 05:28:27 pm
No I can't wait to witness the failure of the Harris presidency's agenda. I hope America survives if god forbid she is suscessful.

What do you dislike the most about her?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 07, 2020, 05:41:10 pm
Minneapolis Star Tribune - November 7, 2020

'Boogaloo Bois' face new charges for possessing machine guns, silencers

https://www.startribune.com/boogaloo-bois-face-new-charges-for-possessing-machine-guns-silencers (https://www.startribune.com/boogaloo-bois-face-new-charges-for-possessing-machine-guns-silencers/572996292/)

"In a related indictment, another Boogaloo member, 26-year-old Ivan Harrison Hunter, is accused of firing an AK-47-style rifle 13 times into the burning Minneapolis Third Precinct headquarters while people were inside the building. Hunter is the self-professed leader of the South Texas Boogaloos Bois and traveled to Minneapolis to take part in the riots. Hunter was in contact with another member of the group that night who is charged with killing two law enforcement officers in California, according to federal court documents.

The week of the riots, prosecutors say, Solomon roamed residential neighborhoods in Minneapolis openly carrying a firearm. He and Teeter told a witness in the case they possessed more guns and substantial quantities of ammunition, according to court documents. They and other Boogaloo members “discussed committing acts of violence against police officers and other targets in furtherance of the Boojahideen’s stated goal of overthrowing the government and replacing its police forces,” the witness told the FBI."

* Just one example of an opportunist wanting to either cause or participate in mayhem. Whether it's an ideological extremest, pyromaniac, or random mentally disturbed individual makes little difference to those anxious to assign blame in furtherance of their own narrative.

Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 07, 2020, 05:43:09 pm
What do you dislike the most about her?

Cheers,
Bernard

I didn't like how she attacked Biden in the first Democratic debate. It was very mean and totally unnecessary. And she can't even act convincingly.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 07, 2020, 05:48:54 pm
And I believe, from thousands of touch points, that taking responsibility is part of the American cultural tool kit. Again especially among people describing themselves as Republicans, which as we know clearly has nothing to do with Trumpism.

Well, I have no idea what your thousands of touchpoints are, so I have no idea of whether your assessment of the character of Americans and Republicans is well founded, but you are certainly entitled to your opinions.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 07, 2020, 05:54:56 pm

Well that programing seems to fit you very well.
No I don't watch much cable or network news  I prefer to read, But I do like to watch Martha and Tucker if I have time.

There's more intelligence in the programming I watch than there is watching Chetos do his temper tantrums.

So you get all your info from the internet culture...that must be all true.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 07, 2020, 05:56:16 pm
Minneapolis Star Tribune - November 7, 2020

'Boogaloo Bois' face new charges for possessing machine guns, silencers

https://www.startribune.com/boogaloo-bois-face-new-charges-for-possessing-machine-guns-silencers (https://www.startribune.com/boogaloo-bois-face-new-charges-for-possessing-machine-guns-silencers/572996292/)

"In a related indictment, another Boogaloo member, 26-year-old Ivan Harrison Hunter, is accused of firing an AK-47-style rifle 13 times into the burning Minneapolis Third Precinct headquarters while people were inside the building. Hunter is the self-professed leader of the South Texas Boogaloos Bois and traveled to Minneapolis to take part in the riots. Hunter was in contact with another member of the group that night who is charged with killing two law enforcement officers in California, according to federal court documents.

The week of the riots, prosecutors say, Solomon roamed residential neighborhoods in Minneapolis openly carrying a firearm. He and Teeter told a witness in the case they possessed more guns and substantial quantities of ammunition, according to court documents. They and other Boogaloo members “discussed committing acts of violence against police officers and other targets in furtherance of the Boojahideen’s stated goal of overthrowing the government and replacing its police forces,” the witness told the FBI."

* Just one example of an opportunist wanting to either cause or participate in mayhem. Whether it's an ideological extremest, pyromaniac, or random mentally disturbed individual makes little difference to those anxious to assign blame in furtherance of their own narrative.

Good old Trump boys.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 07, 2020, 05:57:08 pm
I didn't like how she attacked Biden in the first Democratic debate. It was very mean and totally unnecessary. And she can't even act convincingly.

And how do you feel Trump behaved during his first debate with Biden?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 07, 2020, 05:57:34 pm
Well, I have no idea what your thousands of touchpoints are, so I have no idea of whether your assessment of the character of Americans and Republicans is well founded, but you are certainly entitled to your opinions.

How would you define it?

What does it mean for you to be an American and a Republican?

What are the values you consider essential?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 07, 2020, 06:02:12 pm
I am kind of wondering if he has got his daughter on the next flight out to Serbia.

She is coming in December, for a visit. It is too early to pull her out for good. It took Venezuela 10 years to get where it is now, under socialism. My daughter is graduating college next year. If she can't find a job because of her father's social media posts, which is part of Biden agenda, bringing her here might be a possibility, unless America becomes great again under Cruz or Cranshaw presidency.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 07, 2020, 06:04:20 pm
And how do you feel Trump behaved during his first debate with Biden?
”They” don't portray him as baby Trump for nothing.
(https://mspmag.com/downloads/46959/download/babytrumpballoon.jpg?cb=77b826a7f01007a65c89ff7e92ee8594&w=1280&h=)
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 07, 2020, 06:05:17 pm
Communism? Joe Biden? Really? With a probable Republican majority in the Senate?...

Senate majority is not given, yet. There are two run-offs in January. If both turn to Democrats, they'll have the majority.

As for Biden, the senile fool is totally irrelevant for the communist agenda of the radical left that will actually lead "his" administration. Harris administration, really.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 07, 2020, 06:07:38 pm
How would you define it?

What does it mean for you to be an American and a Republican?

What are the values you consider essential?

I am an American because I happened to be born and raised in America. I am neither a Republican nor a Democrat. I have a personal code of conduct which probably isn't a whole lot different than most people wherever they may live. I am very skeptical of generalizations.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 07, 2020, 06:20:52 pm
After hundreds of years of being the beacon of the free world, America has finally succumbed to communism. Expect purges to begin soon. The Bartender-in-Chief is already compiling lists of Trump supporters who will soon be stripped of their livelihood. Guns will be confiscated, police decimated, we left defenseless against our communist overlords. I weep today for the real America.

As for Biden, the senile fool is totally irrelevant for the communist agenda of the radical left that will actually lead "his" administration. Harris administration, really.

America has finally succumbed to communism? Purges? Defenseless against our communist overlords? The real America?

You are swimming at such a distance to the extreme right and deep end of the ideological pool that it appears you're in danger of drowning in it.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 07, 2020, 06:23:06 pm
There's more intelligence in the programming I watch than there is watching Chetos do his temper tantrums.

So you get all your info from the internet culture...that must be all true.

I get my news from a plethora of sources online, many of them mainstream.  I prefer to listen to both sides.  Can you say the same?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 07, 2020, 06:23:40 pm
I am an American because I happened to be born and raised in America. I am neither a Republican nor a Democrat. I have a personal code of conduct which probably isn't a whole lot different than most people wherever they may live. I am skeptical of generalizations.

I am skeptical of generalizations too.

But saying that there are overall differences isn’t the same thing as saying that everyone fits in the same mold.

I have spent half of my life in Europe and half in Japan. I can tell you that the « average » behavior of Japanese isn’t the same as the average behavior in Belgium. That is again different from the average behavior in France that I know a bit too.

This isn’t to say that one is better than the other, but the existence of important differences is a fact that is beyond doubt.

And these differences of behavior result from different cultural background themselves connected to values.

I assume you may already have read it, but if you not you may find this book interesting: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_in_America

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 07, 2020, 06:25:37 pm
Good old Trump boys.

So what’s the ratio of these so called Trump boys to the crazy looting left?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 07, 2020, 06:27:44 pm
I get my news from a plethora of sources online, many of them mainstream.  I prefer to listen to both sides.

Listening and understanding are not the same thing.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 07, 2020, 06:31:09 pm
So what’s the ratio of these so called Trump boys to the crazy looting left?

Looting is a short term act of criminal opportunism and greed. Looting is not a political movement with long term goals.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 07, 2020, 06:37:27 pm
So what’s the ratio of these so called Trump boys to the crazy looting left?

How do you explain that this supposed crazy looting left (please show me data about the actual identity of the looters) has been most active under Trump? In particular a few months before an election where Trump decided to position himself as the President of law are order?

You do not envision the possibility that the looting is the result of his strategy and not the opposite? Yes, I am saying that Trump and the overall Trump eco-system, including the mindset of hatred he has been spreading, at least triggered it, and probably had a direct implication in it.

But if you were right that the essence of Democrats is looting - they are just looters, it’s in their blood - how come this didn’t occur in 8 years of Obama leadership?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 07, 2020, 06:45:28 pm
... But if you were right that the essence of Democrats is looting - they are just looters, it’s in their blood - how come this didn’t occur in 8 years of Obama leadership?...

You are kidding, right? Or you are just that uninformed?

The BLM started in the Obama era. Execution of police officers in cold blood as well. Burning cities down too.

Seriously, are you serious?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 07, 2020, 06:46:04 pm
I assume you may already have read it, but if you not you may find this book interesting: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_in_America

Yes, I read it 40-50 years ago. Perhaps I should re-read it. I am currently reading Balzac's The Human Comedy. When I finish, I guess I'll know all about the French today.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 07, 2020, 06:49:33 pm
As for Biden, the senile fool is totally irrelevant for the communist agenda of the radical left that will actually lead "his" administration. Harris administration, really.

You know Slobodan your points would be a lot more convincing if you left out the irrational part.

I am aware that Trump has been dramatically lowering the standards, but Biden isn’t senile.

I agree that Harris will be a powerful vice-President but this isn’t a secret.

A majority of Americans voted her in right?

But Harris isn’t a communist more than Obama was. They are both overall still right of the average European views.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 07, 2020, 06:49:43 pm
Listening and understanding are not the same thing.

Oh I understand Hortise.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 07, 2020, 06:51:21 pm
Looting is a short term act of criminal opportunism and greed. Looting is not a political movement with long term goals.

So that’s what those masked folks dressed all in black are doing is say Portland?  No long term political goals?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: John Camp on November 07, 2020, 06:55:31 pm
Serbia has universal health care. F**kin' commies.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 07, 2020, 06:57:51 pm
Yes, I read it 40-50 years ago. Perhaps I should re-read it. I am currently reading Balzac's The Human Comedy. When I finish, I guess I'll know all about the French today.


Lol 😀

Things obviously changed but this isn’t the point as you understood very well.

Balzac will tell you quite a good deal of things about the French culture, although it wasn’t as broad an attempt to study France and was done from inside. Some of it still is very relevant as we speak.

And at a meta level is seems to sustain the proposition that there is relevance in considering general/dominant country/regions « personalities » such as what I see as an essentially American thing « taking responsibility ».

Sorry, the sail boat is waiting and so is my American instructor. Have a great evening!

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 07, 2020, 07:02:15 pm
Looting is a short term act of criminal opportunism and greed. Looting is not a political movement with long term goals.

So that’s what those masked folks dressed all in black are doing is say Portland?  No long term political goals?

Looting is an opportunistic act of criminal theft. Perhaps you could enlighten everyone with the differences in political philosophy among those that engage in looting, burglary, and robbery.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 07, 2020, 07:07:25 pm
Oh I understand Hortise.

Understanding and projecting are not the same thing.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 07, 2020, 07:10:22 pm
Looting is an opportunistic act of criminal theft. Perhaps you could enlighten everyone with the differences in political philosophy among those that engage in looting, burglary, and robbery.

Exactly why must looting be optimistic?  Why can’t it be part and parcel with general rioting to further a political cause?  Like hey guys let’s go firebomb the courthouse and then we can smash the windows at Starbucks.  That will show the world what we think of the evil Trump administration AND those evil corporations.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 07, 2020, 07:11:00 pm
Understanding and projecting are not the same thing.

Thats funny, Lenny.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 07, 2020, 07:21:36 pm
Exactly why must looting be optimistic [opportunistic]?  Why can’t it be part and parcel with general rioting to further a political cause?

In what way does stealing a TV set during a riot further a political cause? Perhaps you have evidence of the ratio of looted televisions which are taken home and tuned to Fox News as compared to MSNBC. Are they being fenced to raise funds for a cause?

adjective: opportunistic: exploiting chances offered by immediate circumstances without reference to a general plan or moral principle.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 07, 2020, 07:24:22 pm
Looting is an opportunistic act of criminal theft. Perhaps you could enlighten everyone with the differences in political philosophy among those that engage in looting, burglary, and robbery.
Not going to happen. Easy to see his posting agenda is to ask rhetorical questions and largely ignore answers backed with facts. This discussion of looting is a strawman; it's not political as you point out and no one on either side condones the act. One side suggests again, without proof, it justifies armed violence by those who don't know what an actual Militia are.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 07, 2020, 07:26:48 pm
I have spent half of my life in Europe and half in Japan. I can tell you that the « average » behavior of Japanese isn’t the same as the average behavior in Belgium. That is again different from the average behavior in France that I know a bit too.

I think I would have a difficult time describing an average American, and assigning to this mythical beast average thoughts and behaviors. It is a pretty big country and there is a lot of diversity. The fact that roughly half of Americans voted for Trump and roughly half of Americans voted for Biden makes the task even more difficult for me. But I am no expert. Perhaps you are in a better position to make these judgments.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 07, 2020, 07:32:21 pm
Looters, seriously?
Forbes:
The purported leader of the violent Proud Boys group said Saturday that the group was “rolling out” and that the “standby order has been rescinded.”
​
Trump notably told the Proud Boys to “stand back and stand by” when asked to denounce his violent supporters during the first presidential debate.
​
Other supporters on far-right websites suggested a violent response after Biden’s victory, parroting the president’s claims of widespread fraud, which he has provided no evidence to back up.



EVERY American should hope nothing comes from this.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 07, 2020, 07:33:31 pm
In what way does stealing a TV set during a riot further a political cause? Perhaps you have evidence of the ratio of looted televisions which are taken home and tuned to Fox News as compared to MSNBC. Are they being fenced to raise funds for a cause?

Perhaps it’s  a form of protest against the man.  Perhaps it’s a way to assure more media coverage to the cause. Maybe cause as we hear today is racial equality.  How can one be racially equal when the rich white folks have all the big screen TVs and the poor, downtrodden minorities are denied?

Lots of possible reasons and of course some may just want a free TV. The point is you can’t issue a blanket statement like Willard did. But then again that’s kind of how Willard rolls.

There are quite a few articles on the web talking about the political aspects of looting.  Perhaps another data point would be helpful for you.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 07, 2020, 07:36:04 pm
Looters, seriously?
Forbes:
The purported leader of the violent Proud Boys group said Saturday that the group was “rolling out” and that the “standby order has been rescinded.”
​
Trump notably told the Proud Boys to “stand back and stand by” when asked to denounce his violent supporters during the first presidential debate.
​
Other supporters on far-right websites suggested a violent response after Biden’s victory, parroting the president’s claims of widespread fraud, which he has provided no evidence to back up.



EVERY American should hope nothing comes from this.

Now wait a second here.  We as a nation have endured violent attacks from the left for months.  Perhaps the resistance has changed sides. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 07, 2020, 07:38:14 pm
Not going to happen. Easy to see his posting agenda is to ask rhetorical questions and largely ignore answers backed with facts. This discussion of looting is a strawman; it's not political as you point out and no one on either side condones the act. One side suggests again, without proof, it justifies armed violence by those who don't know what an actual Militia are.

Well then Andrew perhaps you can supply the facts that’s how the looting is not political.  I’ll be all on hearing your response.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 07, 2020, 07:39:29 pm
Maybe cause as we hear today is racial equality.  How can one be racially equal when the rich white folks have all the big screen TVs and the poor, downtrodden minorities are denied?

Uh-huh. I see where you're coming from now.

I'm finished with this topic.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 07, 2020, 07:43:45 pm
Uh-huh. I see where you're coming from now.
Dog whistle?  ;)
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 07, 2020, 07:47:51 pm
It's not the kind of barking to which I'm going to listen. I've heard it before and I do understand.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 07, 2020, 07:48:32 pm
Serbia has universal health care. F**kin' commies.

That's right, John, remnants of the communist era. But you are my friend, so I wouldn't want you to end up hospitalized here, in case you ever decide to visit me (you would be welcome, of course). 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 07, 2020, 07:49:52 pm
Uh-huh. I see where you're coming from now.

I'm finished with this topic.

Yea if I were you I’d move along too. 

But before you go, maybe check out the article in the Atlantic about looters after GeorgevFloyd, or maybe even the Chicago BLM who defended looting as Reparations.

Oh no, those can’t be possible.  Willard says looting is just criminal and opportunistic.  And Willard knows everything.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 07, 2020, 07:50:54 pm
Dog whistle?  ;)

What? Someone calling you?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 07, 2020, 07:51:34 pm
It's not the kind of barking to which I'm going to listen. I've heard it before and I do understand.

Why listen when you are wrong.  Perfect .
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 07, 2020, 07:57:13 pm
It's not the kind of barking to which I'm going to listen. I've heard it before and I do understand.
+1 It's simply a posting agenda begging for attention.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-_Fav3iPTE0
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 07, 2020, 08:00:50 pm
I get my news from a plethora of sources online, many of them mainstream.  I prefer to listen to both sides.  Can you say the same?

I listen to feeds from world wide including the CBC in Canada and the BBC in Britian. I can't stand the American us against them new casting. Maybe you should look outside your country to get a more rounded view of reality.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Peter McLennan on November 07, 2020, 08:01:32 pm
Why listen when you are wrong.  Perfect .

This from a guy who doesn't understand the difference between "opportunistic" and "optimistic". 

And, who, after several months, still hasn't fixed the battery in his device that he claims keeps causing spelling errors and endless typos.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 07, 2020, 08:03:38 pm
So what’s the ratio of these so called Trump boys to the crazy looting left?

Please tell me? I have no idea...and really don't care. Both sides are idiots in my books.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 07, 2020, 08:05:15 pm
America has finally succumbed to communism? Purges?...

https://thepostmillennial.com/new-blacklist-of-trump-sycophants-inspired-by-aoc-being-compiled?fbclid=IwAR21UEwlVhpB34_Jn3aCTns_kBdpvsvkWvGzLijOK84z0C883zwt8ynYys8

The Bartender-in-Chief:

Quote
"Is anyone archiving these Trump sycophants for when they try to downplay or deny their complicity in the future? I foresee decent probability of many deleted Tweets, writings, photos in the future," the US representative tweeted Friday afternoon.

To which an Obama staffer responds:

Quote
"Yes, we are," answered former Obama administration staffer Michael Simon, citing the Trump Accountability Project. "Every Administration staffer, campaign staffer, bundler, lawyer who represented them — everyone."

And finally, what is going happen to the "infidels":

Quote
... never serve in office, join a corporate board, find a faculty position or be accepted into 'polite' society." She threatened, "We have a list."

These are preparations for Stalinist purges. Perhaps MccArthyism 2.0, though I am much less familiar with that part of history. Stalin would send them to Gulags, but the modern American equivalent is stripping people of their livelihood.


Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 07, 2020, 08:06:26 pm
So that’s what those masked folks dressed all in black are doing is say Portland?  No long term political goals?

Who are these masked men? Do you know?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 07, 2020, 08:08:01 pm
In what way does stealing a TV set during a riot further a political cause? Perhaps you have evidence of the ratio of looted televisions which are taken home and tuned to Fox News as compared to MSNBC. Are they being fenced to raise funds for a cause?

adjective: opportunistic: exploiting chances offered by immediate circumstances without reference to a general plan or moral principle.

Yeh...like the looting that happens after a hurricane goes through...all to make a political point.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 07, 2020, 08:09:53 pm
Not to leave Chairman Mao jealous of Stalin's newly found influence:
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 07, 2020, 08:11:34 pm
That's right, John, remnants of the communist era. But you are my friend, so I wouldn't want you to end up hospitalized here, in case you ever decide to visit me (you would be welcome, of course).

And yet you continue to live in Commi Serbia when your beloved America needs you. Why?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 07, 2020, 08:14:14 pm
And yet you continue to live in Commi Serbia when your beloved America needs you. Why?

As I explained several times, I think even to you for the same question, personal financial reasons. Just like most of about million Americans who retire abroad.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 07, 2020, 08:14:38 pm
This from a guy who doesn't understand the difference between "opportunistic" and "optimistic". 

And, who, after several months, still hasn't fixed the battery in his device that he claims keeps causing spelling errors and endless typos.

I don’t proof read.  I am not a writer or a typist.  My posts are what the are.  If you don’t like what you see, please feel free to just run along.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 07, 2020, 08:21:36 pm
Who are these masked men? Do you know?

Well some of them tell us they are Antifa or BLM.  Do you think it’s all Proud Boys?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 07, 2020, 08:25:16 pm
Yeh...like the looting that happens after a hurricane goes through...all to make a political point.

Not all  looting is political.  Not all looting is just criminal opportunity.

However in Tech Talks world its all just criminals looking for a quick score. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 07, 2020, 08:27:33 pm
Yeh...like the looting that happens after a hurricane goes through...all to make a political point.
Good point! For me, at a time in LA, the riots. They didn't give a crap about George H. W. Bush.
Anyway, time to hear what the next president has to say.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 07, 2020, 08:38:06 pm
As I explained several times, I think even to you for the same question, personal financial reasons. Just like most of about million Americans who retire abroad.

So America the great...and you can't afford to retire there? Pity. You've worked your whole life with dreams about retirement in Serbia...that's the American Dream?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 07, 2020, 08:39:34 pm
Well some of them tell us they are Antifa or BLM.  Do you think it’s all Proud Boys?

How do you this? I have no idea their affiliation...they are just idiots.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 07, 2020, 09:00:10 pm
How do you this? I have no idea their affiliation...they are just idiots.

Watch the news. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 07, 2020, 09:10:34 pm
Watch the news.

Yeh...that's were I want to go to get the truth. You know better...I hope.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 07, 2020, 09:14:14 pm
So America the great...and you can't afford to retire there? Pity. You've worked your whole life with dreams about retirement in Serbia...that's the American Dream?

What my personal and professional situation has to do with the election, or how great America is? But if you need to know, I only worked 10 years in the USA. As I mentioned, about one million Americans choose to retire abroad.  Just like many north Europeans retire in Southern Europe. I’ve been actually surprised by a thriving expat community in Serbia. Digital nomads, entrepreneurs, teachers, etc., all find it here more pleasurable and cheaper than in their home countries. The other day I met a Dutch guy, teaching here. Should I draw a conclusion similar to yours that Holland is not a great country?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 07, 2020, 09:17:23 pm
Senate majority is not given, yet. There are two run-offs in January. If both turn to Democrats, they'll have the majority.

As for Biden, the senile fool is totally irrelevant for the communist agenda of the radical left that will actually lead "his" administration. Harris administration, really.

And thats the whole point. I believe Biden is simply the clean, old white guy placeholder for the real agenda when Harris takes over. I give it less than a year, maybe less if they take the Senate.  Then the far left wing takes over.

When that happens America as we now know it ends forever, IMO.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 07, 2020, 09:17:41 pm
That's right, John, remnants of the communist era. But you are my friend, so I wouldn't want you to end up hospitalized here, in case you ever decide to visit me (you would be welcome, of course).

Interestingly, Jordan Peterson went to Belgrade for a treatment to get weaned off from the benzodiazepine. Canadian and US medical clinics couldn't help.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 07, 2020, 09:21:28 pm
Yeh...that's were I want to go to get the truth. You know better...I hope.

When a guy stands there, with his mask down, Antifa tattoo on his neck and he tells you he is Antifa 100 %, do you  think he's a right wing plant?  What about when his sister says yea, he's Antifa?

This is right out of the news.  Research it.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 07, 2020, 09:22:33 pm
Yeh...that's were I want to go to get the truth. You know better...I hope.

So where is the truth to be found Chez? Really I would like to know.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 07, 2020, 09:34:33 pm
Interestingly, Jordan Peterson went to Belgrade for a treatment to get weaned off from the benzodiazepine. Canadian and US medical clinics couldn't help.

Yes, we have the antidote. I think the scientific term is šljivovica.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 07, 2020, 09:51:37 pm
What my personal and professional situation has to do with the election, or how great America is? But if you need to know, I only worked 10 years in the USA. As I mentioned, about one million Americans choose to retire abroad.  Just like many north Europeans retire in Southern Europe. I’ve been actually surprised by a thriving expat community in Serbia. Digital nomads, entrepreneurs, teachers, etc., all find it here more pleasurable and cheaper than in their home countries. The other day I met a Dutch guy, teaching here. Should I draw a conclusion similar to yours that Holland is not a great country?

No idea about Holland, but I retired here in Canada with a great pension and health care. Pity one has to go elsewhere from where they worked in order to be able to retire. Yeh...lets make America great again...people feeling great these last 4 years.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 07, 2020, 09:53:30 pm
And thats the whole point. I believe Biden is simply the clean, old white guy placeholder for the real agenda when Harris takes over. I give it less than a year, maybe less if they take the Senate.  Then the far left wing takes over.

When that happens America as we now know it ends forever, IMO.

Well if America as we know it from last month...I think many want that garbage thrown out. Virus out of control, economy out of control, people rioting in the streets...what's not to love.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 07, 2020, 09:57:10 pm
When a guy stands there, with his mask down, Antifa tattoo on his neck and he tells you he is Antifa 100 %, do you  think he's a right wing plant?  What about when his sister says yea, he's Antifa?

This is right out of the news.  Research it.

And what about the dozens storming buildings in fatigues with their guns slung across their chests...or how about those planning on abducting a governor. And how about Trump encouraging this behaviour.

Craig...how the hell can you straight faced defend Trumo and his goon squad...really that's America?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 07, 2020, 09:58:47 pm
So where is the truth to be found Chez? Really I would like to know.

Outside the US where everything...and I mean everything is either for republican or democrats. Open your mind and look outside for a more realistic view.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Robert Roaldi on November 07, 2020, 10:05:24 pm
There was a really interesting podcast interview on NPR's Fresh Air recently with Jack Goldsmith (former legal counsel to George W. Bush's White House), co-author of "After Trump: Reconstructing The Presidency," https://www.npr.org/2020/11/05/931718840/future-presidents-should-be-held-more-accountable-after-trump-author-says (https://www.npr.org/2020/11/05/931718840/future-presidents-should-be-held-more-accountable-after-trump-author-says).

Short blurb from opening statement, "Goldsmith points out, President Trump has said that Article 2 of the Constitution gives him the right to do whatever he wants. In doing what he's wanted to, Trump has attacked norms comprehensively and frequently and disregarded them openly. The new book spells out the norms Trump has broken and the weaknesses in accountability that have allowed him to do so. The book recommends reforms that will hold future presidents more accountable."





Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Robert Roaldi on November 07, 2020, 10:12:01 pm
I just wanted to thank the contributors warning us about the coming commie apocalypse in the last few pages. It reminded me a lot of the shrill nonsense from campus revolutionaries at McGill in the mid-1970s. My advice to you is to switch to decaf. I had a good laugh.

And as I often say after an election, the people have spoken.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 07, 2020, 10:13:00 pm
In the last 4 days, the new infections in USA were coming at record numbers at around 120,000 a day and deaths at around 1,200 a day. 
Seeing the huge Pro-Biden and Pro-Trump weekend crowds, body on body and often without masks, I shudder to think about the next week infections and deaths. The numbers could easily double in the next days (and with so many infected people, they could then double again). How stupid can people get before they smarten up?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Robert Roaldi on November 07, 2020, 10:14:21 pm
How stupid can people get before they smarten up?

Stupid never sleeps.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Robert Roaldi on November 07, 2020, 10:28:48 pm
It seems to me that if you were going to fight this election to the bitter end, you might want to be meeting with your advisors and lawyers and working on crafting a strategic plan, rather than being on the golf course undoubtedly cheating your way around eighteen holes, and tweeting "I WON THIS ELECTION, BY A LOT!". And can anyone explain why Giuliani and friends are announcing their upcoming legal efforts at a landscaping business in an industrial section of Philadelphia? Seems pretty whackadoodle to me.

When I heard that he was playing golf today, I thought "Perfect." I predict a lot of Republican party strategist infighting in the coming months and years. I suspect that a lot of the adults who left the party in the last 5 years might want back in. There may be a reckoning.

But that's just the politicians, basically who cares about them. Let's see if anyone turns their attention to actually improving things for US citizens for a change, instead of ramping them up to shoot at each other.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 07, 2020, 10:31:11 pm
In the last 4 days, the new infections in USA were coming at record numbers at around 120,000 a day and deaths at around 1,200 a day. 
Seeing the huge Pro-Biden and Pro-Trump weekend crowds, body on body and often without masks, I shudder to think about the next week infections and deaths. The numbers could easily double in the next days (and with so many infected people, they could then double again). How stupid can people get before they smarten up?

Most people need to be hit on their heads before things sink in. How many times have you heard someone say after they beet lung cancer "I'll never smoke again". It's like they never knew until they looked death directly in their eyes that smoking leads to cancer.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 07, 2020, 10:35:03 pm
Well if America as we know it from last month...I think many want that garbage thrown out. Virus out of control, economy out of control, people rioting in the streets...what's not to love.

The economy is doing pretty well considering. Better than many other countries including Canada at least for the second quarter.  I've not seen a third quarter comparison.

Riots can be stopped if there is a will and there is no will in the cities and states where they are happening.

Yes the virus is still with us and we have lots of cases.  Its still a virus that has an around a 99 percentage recovery rate overall. 

Just wait.  Lockdowns are coming and thats not a good thing for America.  Heck they are talking aboutt wanting people to wear masks at home.  That's going to be a sure winner from the Biden camp.

I love America, warts and all, and its the warts that makes us special.  President come and go, policy changes and often it changes back again.  Hopefully we survive Biden.  We had an amazing run under Trump.  I think Biden will destroy it all.  Can you say Great Reset?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 07, 2020, 10:41:10 pm
Yes, Trump was playing golf today.

The excursion marked Trump’s 209th day golfing since becoming president, according to CBS News White House correspondent Mark Knoller — 104 more than Barack Obama, Trump’s predecessor whom he excoriated for golfing.

Remember Trump telling us, an early deception; ” I'm not going to have time to go play golf." --Donald J. Trump, August, 2016.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 07, 2020, 10:43:42 pm
In the last 4 days, the new infections in USA were coming at record numbers at around 120,000 a day and deaths at around 1,200 a day. 
Seeing the huge Pro-Biden and Pro-Trump weekend crowds, body on body and often without masks, I shudder to think about the next week infections and deaths. The numbers could easily double in the next days (and with so many infected people, they could then double again). How stupid can people get before they smarten up?

For the vast majority of people I believe the thinking is if I get sick, I get over it and I go on.  I don't think most Americans will accept more lockdowns or stay at home orders.  At least around here the world looks pretty much like it did pre-covid.  You couldn't tell by looking at the traffic and the parking lots at stores and restaurants.

My neighbor, aged 56 got covid a few weeks ago.  7 days at home, minimal symptoms and then back to work.  No one else in the family got it.  He says screw it, its not a big deal and I'm glad I've got it past me.  I'm not that bold, but many people are.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 07, 2020, 10:45:39 pm
Yes, Trump was playing golf today.

The excursion marked Trump’s 209th day golfing since becoming president, according to CBS News White House correspondent Mark Knoller — 104 more than Barack Obama, Trump’s predecessor whom he excoriated for golfing.

Remember Trump telling us, an early deception; ” I'm not going to have time to go play golf." --Donald J. Trump, August, 2016.

Yea well Trump has owns a few golf courses and has living quarters there.  Obama not so much. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 07, 2020, 10:46:38 pm
The economy is doing pretty well considering. Better than many other countries including Canada at least for the second quarter.  I've not seen a third quarter comparison.

Riots can be stopped if there is a will and there is no will in the cities and states where they are happening.

Yes the virus is still with us and we have lots of cases.  Its still a virus that has an around a 99 percentage recovery rate overall. 

Just wait.  Lockdowns are coming and thats not a good thing for America.  Heck they are talking aboutt wanting people to wear masks at home.  That's going to be a sure winner from the Biden camp.

I love America, warts and all, and its the warts that makes us special.  President come and go, policy changes and often it changes back again.  Hopefully we survive Biden.  We had an amazing run under Trump.  I think Biden will destroy it all.  Can you say Great Reset?

You call it amazing, I call it a disaster. You really think the stock market was the result of anything Trump did? The market was on fire when Trump took office, the entire world economies were all ticking. Trump had little to do with anything. His take back manufacturing from Chi a totally flopped. The trade difference between China and US has increased by 25% since a Trump took over...so much for bringing back that manufacturing. North Korea played Trump for a fool. Their leader paraded around before his meeting with Trump, looking like a king. North Korea just tested a new long range missile...yeh puppy Trump is really tough. And let's not get into Russia where Putin had Trump sitting on his lap.

What exactly has Trump accomplished these part 4 years? He couldn't even build the f'ing wall.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 07, 2020, 10:48:39 pm
Yea well Trump has owns a few golf courses and has living quarters there.  Obama not so much.

You'll defend Chetos to the end.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 07, 2020, 10:55:02 pm
You call it amazing, I call it a disaster. You really think the stock market was the result of anything Trump did? The market was on fire when Trump took office, the entire world economies were all ticking. Trump had little to do with anything. His take back manufacturing from Chi a totally flopped. The trade difference between China and US has increased by 25% since a Trump took over...so much for bringing back that manufacturing. North Korea played Trump for a fool. Their leader paraded around before his meeting with Trump, looking like a king. North Korea just tested a new long range missile...yeh puppy Trump is really tough. And let's not get into Russia where Putin had Trump sitting on his lap.

What exactly has Trump accomplished these part 4 years? He couldn't even build the f'ing wall.

Wow, are we living in the same world?  Well you see it your way and I and my IRA will see it another.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 07, 2020, 10:56:57 pm
You'll defend Chetos to the end.


Actually I will. 

I really dont care if he plays golf or not, Did you take any days off each week when you worked?  Is a president entitled to days off, or at least days with less duties?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 07, 2020, 11:00:28 pm
You'll defend Chetos to the end.
He also, as expected, utterly missed the hypocrisy and lie from Trump about golfing to attack Obama.
It will be great to see how much larger Bidens crowd size and ratings will be on January 20th; Trump will bust a gut over that. ;D
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 07, 2020, 11:10:51 pm
He also, as expected, utterly missed the hypocrisy and lie from Trump about golfing to attack Obama.
It will be great to see how much larger Bidens crowd size and ratings will be on January 20th; Trump will bust a gut over that. ;D

I really don't care how much Trump played golf or what he said about Obama.

What? Biden is going to hold a huge gathering with all the covid?  Would that be a bit hypocritical?

What I do find amusing is how much Trump lives rent free in your head.  Your old man won, and Trump is going away but still all you can do is attack him.  It must really suck for you to have this much hatred burning inside of you.  Maybe you should let it go.

The prospects of the next four years look interesting from one standpoint.  I and 70 million others now get to pick apart every stupid thing Biden does and then we got to watch guys like you try and defend.  Shoe is on the other foot now!



Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 07, 2020, 11:38:54 pm
No idea about Holland, but I retired here in Canada with a great pension and health care. Pity one has to go elsewhere from where they worked in order to be able to retire. Yeh...lets make America great again...people feeling great these last 4 years.

You are very fortunate in your situation. There are many seniors in Canada, both male and female, living on a basic CPP and Old Age pension, able to afford only a room or a crummy basement apartment, or living with a relative, and no car. Typically they don't have a supplementary health insurance and if they fall ill, and need a paid physiotherapist at $100/hr, that's often out of their reach.

Quote
Only 15 to 20 per cent of middle-income Canadians retiring without an employer pension plan have saved anywhere near enough for retirement, according to a new study from the Broadbent Institute. These people, now aged 55 to 64, face a dramatic drop in their standard of living in retirement, and many will spend their senior years in poverty, the think-tank says, basing its findings on Statistics Canada figures.

About 47 per cent of Canadians currently have no employer pension, and even fewer younger workers have employer pensions. That means the number of seniors who slip into poverty will worsen in the decades ahead. Canadians within 10 years of retirement are supposed to be at their peak savings years, socking away money for retirement. But Shillington found the median value of retirement assets of Canadians age 55 to 64 is just over $3,000.

They'll get the CPP/QPP and OAS/GIS in most cases, which brings them to an average of $15,970Cdn annually for singles and $25,746Cdn for couples. Half have less than year of savings
But they are meant to supplement that income from their own savings or other resources. As things stand now, half have savings that represent less than one year's worth of the resources they need to supplement OAS/GIS and CPP/QPP, the study found.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/retirement-savings-broadbent-institute-1.3450084
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 07, 2020, 11:40:43 pm
When I heard that he was playing golf today, I thought "Perfect." I predict a lot of Republican party strategist infighting in the coming months and years. I suspect that a lot of the adults who left the party in the last 5 years might want back in. There may be a reckoning.

Well, that's one venue where he can still cheat.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Jim Pascoe on November 08, 2020, 02:14:03 am
Yea, now it your turn to fail.  I can't wait to watch.

Surely this is exactly the problem that needs to be avoided.  Trump destroyed himself, at least Biden will attempt to speak for all Americans.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 08, 2020, 03:37:18 am
The economy is doing pretty well considering. Better than many other countries including Canada at least for the second quarter.  I've not seen a third quarter comparison.

Riots can be stopped if there is a will and there is no will in the cities and states where they are happening.

Yes the virus is still with us and we have lots of cases.  Its still a virus that has an around a 99 percentage recovery rate overall. 

Just wait.  Lockdowns are coming and thats not a good thing for America.  Heck they are talking aboutt wanting people to wear masks at home.  That's going to be a sure winner from the Biden camp.

I love America, warts and all, and its the warts that makes us special.  President come and go, policy changes and often it changes back again.  Hopefully we survive Biden.  We had an amazing run under Trump.  I think Biden will destroy it all.  Can you say Great Reset?

Such an amazing run under Trump...
- 240,000 people dead, at least half of them the direct consequence of Trump’s approach to the pandemic
- an economic situation far worse that it could have had things been managed competently
- a country more divided than it ever was
- a Presidential function and institutions more devalued than ever before
- alliances at their worst ever
- relationship with the worst tyrans on earth at their best ever
- the concept of truth itself attacked to the core
- ...

Impressive really.

Perhaps things were good for you. But you are at least making it very clear that age hasn’t brought wisdom to you. The wisdom to think about what’s good for your grand children and for other children around.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 08, 2020, 06:29:48 am
You are very fortunate in your situation. There are many seniors in Canada, both male and female, living on a basic CPP and Old Age pension, able to afford only a room or a crummy basement apartment, or living with a relative, and no car. Typically they don't have a supplementary health insurance and if they fall ill, and need a paid physiotherapist at $100/hr, that's often out of their reach.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/retirement-savings-broadbent-institute-1.3450084

Les,

Thanks for bringing a dose of reality into this otherwise jubilant exuberance.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 08, 2020, 06:33:33 am
I think only Saddam Hussein had a better turnout, plus 99% votes for him:

Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 08, 2020, 08:10:30 am
Surely this is exactly the problem that needs to be avoided.  Trump destroyed himself, at least Biden will attempt to speak for all Americans.

The left and the media did its best to destroy Trump and his supporters and I hope we become the resistance now. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 08, 2020, 08:21:30 am
Quote
Quote from: Jim Pascoe on Today at 02:14:03 am
Surely this is exactly the problem that needs to be avoided.  Trump destroyed himself, at least Biden will attempt to speak for all Americans.

Quote
The left and the media did its best to destroy Trump and his supporters and I hope we become the resistance now.

There is some truth in both statements. Indeed, the left, middle and the media did its best to destroy Trump, and he also contributed to his demise himself. As to forming a resistance now, that would be very unfortunate and ill-advised.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Robert Roaldi on November 08, 2020, 08:21:43 am
Les,

Thanks for bringing a dose of reality into this otherwise jubilant exuberance.

The Canadian Old Age Security and employee-contributed CPP were NEVER intended to be full sole support for people in retirement. They were not introduced that way and have never been promoted that way. All the wording in the legislation and on current web sites and anywhere you care to look including financial advisors, etc., stress that for a comfortable retirement people should seek ways to set aside their own funds for their old age. The OAS and CPP were meant from the start to be a system of last resort so that the most destitute have some chance of living out their lives at some minimum level. It happens that today in expensive urban areas, people living on only those pensions are going to have a very hard time of it, mainly because of high rents. My mother-in-law managed to live on her pensions and her husband's death benefits fairly well in a small town in the Maritimes. She managed to actually save some money out of her modest pension income. Had she lived in Toronto, that would be impossible. I don't know why these systems are characterized as cradle-to-grave government nanny state domination over people's lives, they have NEVER been that, but myths are hard to dislodge. It reminds me of the way that Canadian Health is characterized by some, including on these forums. It always makes me think that some lobby group is at work trying to sell something to someone. Don't fall for the propaganda, do your own research, as they say.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 08, 2020, 08:43:53 am
The fact is that there is a great disparity in the living standard of Canadian seniors. Retired policemen, firemen and teachers have rather generous pensions whereas some other occupations and self-employed contractors or many ex-business operators have limited pensions or retirement savings. Add to it unfortunate incidents such as divorce or two, or a serious illness, and those circumstances can wipe out any savings. As Robert mentioned, rents in the cities are very high ($2,000 average rent for 1 bdrm apt in Toronto) and often more expensive than an average senior pension.  I know several people in their seventies who are forced to work to supplement their pensions.   
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 08, 2020, 08:47:41 am
There is some truth in both statements. Indeed, the left, middle and the media did its best to destroy Trump, and he also contributed to his demise himself. As to forming a resistance now, that would be very unfortunate and ill-advised.

They didn't just try and destroy Trump, they tried to destroy his supporters as well.  It continues still today.

Why would resistance be ill advised?  The Biden, or shall we say the Left agenda runs counter to many of the things people on the right hold dear.  Why should we not resist?  The left just spend 4 years fighting the right and now you think we should just surrender? 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Robert Roaldi on November 08, 2020, 08:58:03 am
The fact is that there is a great disparity in the living standard of Canadian seniors. Retired policemen, firemen and teachers have rather generous pensions whereas some other occupations and self-employed contractors or many ex-business operators have limited pensions or retirement savings. Add to it unfortunate incidents such as divorce or two, or a serious illness, and those circumstances can wipe out any savings. As Robert mentioned, rents in the cities are very high ($2,000 average rent for 1 bdrm apt in Toronto) and often more expensive than an average senior pension.  I know several people in their seventies who are forced to work to supplement their pensions.

That's exactly right, I know several people in that same boat. Those fortunate enough to have worked in professions that had set up good retirement plans for them didn't have to worry about doing all that planning themselves. Others have no choice but to do it themselves. We are responsible for our own financial lives. It is awful and sometimes tragic how little education we receive about these things in our early working lives. We should have these things drummed into our heads that very first week on our first job. I didn't seriously start thinking about setting funds aside till I was in my early 1940s, and I got a bit lucky. There are a lot of resources at people's disposal, and even more so today online, but they require that people actively seek them out.

Life's assaults like bad divorces or other bad luck can be devastating. I hate to think what life will be like for today's so-called gig-economy "employee/contractors" as they age without stability. And we did all this to ourselves, eyes wide open.

Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 08, 2020, 09:10:28 am
The fact is that there is a great disparity in the living standard of Canadian seniors. Retired policemen, firemen and teachers have rather generous pensions whereas some other occupations and self-employed contractors or many ex-business operators have limited pensions or retirement savings. Add to it unfortunate incidents such as divorce or two, or a serious illness, and those circumstances can wipe out any savings. As Robert mentioned, rents in the cities are very high ($2,000 average rent for 1 bdrm apt in Toronto) and often more expensive than an average senior pension.  I know several people in their seventies who are forced to work to supplement their pensions.

No one is forcing people to retire in Toronto or Vancouver where the cost of living is very high. There are many other places in Canada where rents are much more affordable and if one's income cannot support a $2,000 / month rent, they need to move to a place they can afford. I live in a beautiful part of the country where vacationers flock to and there are 1 bedroom apartments available for $600 / month.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 08, 2020, 09:11:05 am
Well, that's one venue where he can still cheat.
Indeed, he's know for cheating at golf too:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/golf.com/lifestyle/celebrities/how-why-president-trump-cheats-golf-playing-tiger-woods/amp/

Trump doesn’t just cheat at golf. He cheats like a three-card Monte dealer. He throws it, boots it, and moves it. He lies about his lies. He fudges and foozles and fluffs. At Winged Foot, where Trump is a member, the caddies got so used to seeing him kick his ball back onto the fairway they came up with a nickname for him: “Pele.”

Another example of his ”Leadership” skills where his sycophants can't connect the factual dots. They will tell us ”we don't care” as long as we get tax cuts and our 401s are good.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: armand on November 08, 2020, 09:39:18 am
I think only Saddam Hussein had a better turnout, plus 99% votes for him:

I don’t think you/owner of that drawing knows what impossibility means. It also conveniently forgets that practically half of those “impossible” numbers were made up of Trump voters, or just the Biden’s votes were “impossible”?
 I know though that you know that. This is just sore loser attitude dripping down from the top. But don’t worry, there are 3 more months for Trump to prove its worth through the worst phase of the pandemic. Unfortunately probably the focus will be on not accepting the results instead of actual leadership.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 08, 2020, 10:21:05 am
Indeed, he's know for cheating at golf too:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/golf.com/lifestyle/celebrities/how-why-president-trump-cheats-golf-playing-tiger-woods/amp/

"To say “Donald Trump cheats” is like saying “Michael Phelps swims.”"

So, I have been searching the web for an explanation of why Rudy Giuliani held a press conference on Trump's upcoming legal maneuvers at a landscaping business in an industrial section of Philadelphia, with a porn store on one side and a cremation center on the other, and have come up empty handed. I guess not even Trump can come up with a lie big enough to explain it, and that's saying something.

Trump tweeted this yesterday afternoon, following the networks calling the election for Biden:

"I WON THIS ELECTION, BY A LOT!"

We'll just have to see what happens Monday morning when Team Trump starts filing more lawsuits.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Manoli on November 08, 2020, 10:44:33 am
Way to go, boys, way to go!

Is it possible that the Trump/Giuliani stand up comedy routine manage to book the Four Seasons for their grand finale electoral fraud presser and it turns out be the Four Seasons Total Landscaping parking lot,  between a dildo store and a crematorium ?  You couldn't make it up.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50578764018_8451d53aee_o.jpg)
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 08, 2020, 10:56:25 am
No one is forcing people to retire in Toronto or Vancouver where the cost of living is very high. There are many other places in Canada where rents are much more affordable and if one's income cannot support a $2,000 / month rent, they need to move to a place they can afford. I live in a beautiful part of the country where vacationers flock to and there are 1 bedroom apartments available for $600 / month.

Where is it? Kelowna or Vancouver island?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 08, 2020, 11:06:55 am
Where is it? Kelowna or Vancouver island?

Salmon Arm.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 08, 2020, 11:15:54 am
A flawless explanation of Trump's plans moving ahead.
And how well you can depend on his word (on Golf and other stuff)  ;) .
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 08, 2020, 11:21:12 am
A flawless explanation of Trump's plans moving ahead.
And how well you can depend on his word (on Golf and other stuff)  ;) .

He continues to live rent free in your head.....
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 08, 2020, 11:21:25 am
Salmon Arm seems like a nice place to retire. Maybe also safe from the virus.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 08, 2020, 11:24:42 am
Way to go, boys, way to go!

Is it possible that the Trump/Giuliani stand up comedy routine manage to book the Four Seasons for their grand finale electoral fraud presser and it turns out be the Four Seasons Total Landscaping parking lot,  between a dildo store and a crematorium ?  You couldn't make it up.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50578764018_8451d53aee_o.jpg)

I can't imagine there are a lot of places in that city willing to allow the Trump team to host a presser saying the city cheated in the election. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 08, 2020, 11:39:56 am
I can't imagine there are a lot of places in that city willing to allow the Trump team to host a presser saying the city cheated in the election.

Money talks. I'm sure there could have been better places given enough money involved.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 08, 2020, 11:42:20 am
Salmon Arm seems like a nice place to retire. Maybe also safe from the virus.

Great place to retire...I've been here for 25 years, had a great job with a local company. Yes, very little Covid activity here.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 08, 2020, 11:43:38 am
Trump lives rent free in your head.

He continues to live rent free in your head.....

He continues to live rent fact free in your head...
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 08, 2020, 11:45:45 am
He continues to live rent fact free in your head...

Thats the best the Tech Talk come up with?  Sheesh.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 08, 2020, 11:47:11 am
Money talks. I'm sure there could have been better places given enough money involved.

Maybe...or not.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 08, 2020, 11:50:08 am
Biden is simply the clean, old white guy

Uh-huh.

when Harris takes over... America as we now know it ends forever, IMO.

Uh-huh. You're making your point of view clearer all the time.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 08, 2020, 11:57:06 am
Trump is going away but still all you can do is attack him.  It must really suck for you to have this much hatred burning inside of you.

Disgust and hatred are not the same thing.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 08, 2020, 12:02:13 pm
Maybe...or not.

Why not? You don't think if money was thrown out...there would be no takers better than some industrial park?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 08, 2020, 12:17:22 pm
I think only Saddam Hussein had a better turnout, plus 99% votes for him:

You can have conspiratorial fun or look for actual facts. Your choice.

https://www.channel3000.com/no-wisconsin-voter-turnout-wasnt-improbably-high-heres-the-facts-about-turnout-calculations/ (https://www.channel3000.com/no-wisconsin-voter-turnout-wasnt-improbably-high-heres-the-facts-about-turnout-calculations/)

No, Wisconsin voter turnout wasn’t ‘improbably high.’ Here’s the facts about turnout calculations

"In the wake of former Vice President Joe Biden’s win in Wisconsin by about 23,000 votes according to unofficial totals, theories have been flying from social media influencers that involve miscalculations of turnout or comparisons of turnout rates that aren’t equal. Frequently located outside Wisconsin and picking up traction within the state on Twitter and Facebook, accounts posting about “improbably high” turnout or theories of “more votes than registrations” lack both context and facts.

According to unofficial results, Wisconsinites cast more votes than in any other presidential election. Turnout, however, remained at a rate on par with many past presidential elections in the past two decades. Voters turned out in high numbers in red and blue counties alike, with many rural counties–as is common–turning out numbers at 80% of the voting age population or higher. But claims that the state had reached an improbable voting turnout based on past elections, with the accompanying implications of fraud, are false.

Much of the confusion can be traced to the use of different voter turnout equations. Clerks around the state will at times use voter registrations as the denominator for measuring turnout, a number that is essentially always smaller than the actual number of the voting age population in a municipality or county. The Wisconsin Elections Commission doesn’t use that denominator–and neither do many election officials.

Instead, the WEC measures turnout using the voting age population metric as defined by the Wisconsin Demographic Services Center, a division of the Department of Administration. That denominator has been used for all statewide turnout estimates, which range from 57% (1996) to 72.9% (2004), the current highest turnout when measured by population rate.

Unofficial results indicate a 72.67% voter turnout for Tuesday’s Wisconsin election statewide, the second-highest in the state and a far cry from the misleading social media claims citing a much higher and very misleading turnout number as an implication of suspicious activity."

Or... https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/11/05/fact-check-wisconsin-voter-turnout-line-past-elections (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/11/05/fact-check-wisconsin-voter-turnout-line-past-elections/6176028002/)
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 08, 2020, 12:26:27 pm
What I do find amusing is how much Trump lives rent free in your head.  Your old man won, and Trump is going away but still all you can do is attack him.  It must really suck for you to have this much hatred burning inside of you.  Maybe you should let it go.

Trump going away? Someone needs to bring him up to speed on that. He tweeted again this morning:

"“We believe these people are thieves. The big city machines are corrupt. This was a stolen election. Best pollster in Britain wrote this morning that this clearly was a stolen election, that it’s impossible to imagine that Biden outran Obama in some of these states."

We are going to have to put up with him until January 20, 2021, so don't expect us to remain silent as he spews out more of his lies and nonsense. Don't worry, you'll have your turn beginning on inauguration day. You could even start now if you want. You'll get no complaint from me. Have at it.

Just checked Fox News, Breitbart, and Infowars. Nary a mention of Hunter Biden's laptop or Bobulinski. So I guess the right wing media has got nothing, and it is off to the next conspiracy: massive voter fraud.

News Alert: Trump is back out cheating on the golf course this afternoon. But as Craig pointed out, Trump still has his phone, so the chaos is under control.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Robert Roaldi on November 08, 2020, 12:56:55 pm
Trump going away? Someone needs to bring him up to speed on that. He tweeted again this morning:

"“We believe these people are thieves. The big city machines are corrupt. This was a stolen election. Best pollster in Britain wrote this morning that this clearly was a stolen election, that it’s impossible to imagine that Biden outran Obama in some of these states."


So much for a dignified exit.

Those "corrupt big machines" don't really work all that well, it seems, or this show would have been wrapped up a few days ago.

Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 08, 2020, 01:04:26 pm
Just checked Fox News, Breitbart, and Infowars. Nary a mention of Hunter Biden's laptop or Bobulinski. So I guess the right wing media has got nothing.

First, Rudy Giuliani set out to expose Joe Biden's dealings in Ukraine. A shocking tale of carrying out the bipartisan policy of the U.S. Government and its allies.

Then the ace attorney set out to expose Joe Biden as a senile criminal mastermind of an international financial conspiracy with his brother and son.

But now he's moved on to exposing the vast fraud that is the U.S. democratic election process. So, I think that's where all the chatter will be focused now.

At least we've moved on from what Giuliani was about to expose in the Borat movie. That's a relief!
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 08, 2020, 01:04:52 pm
Trump going away? Someone needs to bring him up to speed on that. He tweeted again this morning:

"“We believe these people are thieves. The big city machines are corrupt. This was a stolen election. Best pollster in Britain wrote this morning that this clearly was a stolen election, that it’s impossible to imagine that Biden outran Obama in some of these states."

That's what also Russian press reported, so it could be true.

Quote
“US President Donald Trump said that every vote that came in after Election Day will not be counted,” reported Sputnik, an English-language Russian government web site, after Trump tweeted “Stop the count,” Thursday morning.

“Trump calls results ‘big WIN’ & accuses opponents of ‘trying to STEAL’ election, gets ‘misleading’ label from Twitter,” said RT, another Russian media operation, on Wednesday.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/russians-have-no-need-spread-misinformation-trump-his-allies-are-n1246653
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 08, 2020, 01:08:32 pm
At least we've moved on from what Giuliani was about to expose in the Borat movie. That's a relief!

He will always be Rudy "Hand Down His Pants" Giuliani to me.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 08, 2020, 01:19:23 pm
Example of actual Republican leadership, just now from the only former living Republican President:
George W. Bush congratulated President-elect Joe Biden in a phone call Sunday:
"Though we have political differences, I know Joe Biden to be a good man, who has won his opportunity to lead and unify our country,"  "The President-elect reiterated that while he ran as a Democrat, he will govern for all Americans. I offered him the same thing I offered Presidents Trump and Obama: my prayers for his success, and my pledge to help in any way I can." 

Meanwhile, on Planet Trump (soon to implode in a galaxy far, far away):
As of Sunday afternoon, Trump has refused to concede, tweeting a host of unproven claims about voter fraud without offering any evidence and wrongly insisting that he had won the election; another of his thousands of lies while in office. His attorneys have filed lawsuits in several states, so far without any success.

Man, what a difference in character; I actually miss George W.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Manoli on November 08, 2020, 01:24:57 pm
Man, what a difference in character; I actually miss George W.

Yes.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Manoli on November 08, 2020, 01:27:18 pm
and now this ...
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 08, 2020, 01:30:48 pm
Example of actual Republican leadership, just now from the only former living Republican President:
George W. Bush congratulated President-elect Joe Biden in a phone call Sunday:
"Though we have political differences, I know Joe Biden to be a good man, who has won his opportunity to lead and unify our country,"  "The President-elect reiterated that while he ran as a Democrat, he will govern for all Americans. I offered him the same thing I offered Presidents Trump and Obama: my prayers for his success, and my pledge to help in any way I can." 

Meanwhile, on Planet Trump (soon to implode in a galaxy far, far away):
As of Sunday afternoon, Trump has refused to concede, tweeting a host of unproven claims about voter fraud without offering any evidence and wrongly insisting that he had won the election; another of his thousands of lies while in office. His attorneys have filed lawsuits in several states, so far without any success.

Man, what a difference in character; I actually miss George W.

Thanks. Interesting that you should post that. I was just thinking last night that it would be a great thing for George W. Bush to do. Whatever differences with his policies people may have held, his human decency has been sorely missed in The White House these past four years.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 08, 2020, 01:35:15 pm
and now this ...

Nothing new there. That's just a rehash from Wednesday. Only the date has changed.

And I had this moment of epiphany: Now Trump has no chance for a Nobel peace prize. Bwahahahaha...
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 08, 2020, 01:45:11 pm
Uh-huh.

Uh-huh. You're making your point of view clearer all the time.

I'm an open book when to comes to my views about this election.  Perhaps you are just a wee bit slow on the uptake.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 08, 2020, 01:46:43 pm
Disgust and hatred are not the same thing.

Really? Is that what we are seeing?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 08, 2020, 01:51:05 pm
Trump going away? Someone needs to bring him up to speed on that. He tweeted again this morning:

"“We believe these people are thieves. The big city machines are corrupt. This was a stolen election. Best pollster in Britain wrote this morning that this clearly was a stolen election, that it’s impossible to imagine that Biden outran Obama in some of these states."

We are going to have to put up with him until January 20, 2021, so don't expect us to remain silent as he spews out more of his lies and nonsense. Don't worry, you'll have your turn beginning on inauguration day. You could even start now if you want. You'll get no complaint from me. Have at it.

Just checked Fox News, Breitbart, and Infowars. Nary a mention of Hunter Biden's laptop or Bobulinski. So I guess the right wing media has got nothing, and it is off to the next conspiracy: massive voter fraud.

News Alert: Trump is back out cheating on the golf course this afternoon. But as Craig pointed out, Trump still has his phone, so the chaos is under control.

Yep he stays until the 20th of Jan and then you will be free of him, unless some stange twist of fate brings him back to office.  I'm not holding my breath or counting any chickens.

There will be plenty of time to work over old Joe if he makes it to office.  Anyone making odds that he's gone before the 20th?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Chris Kern on November 08, 2020, 01:54:53 pm
George W. Bush congratulated President-elect Joe Biden in a phone call Sunday. . . .

Meanwhile, on Planet Trump (soon to implode in a galaxy far, far away):
As of Sunday afternoon, Trump has refused to concede, tweeting a host of unproven claims about voter fraud without offering any evidence and wrongly insisting that he had won the election . . .

Man, what a difference in character; I actually miss George W.

Bush, like Biden, represents the "old normal."
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 08, 2020, 01:55:54 pm
and now this ...
So Sunday morning, Trump plays golf (cheating?). Biden goes to church.
Monday: Trump files lawsuits that go no where, Trump will watch hours of TV and tweet. Biden announces he will name a group of leading scientists and experts as transition advisers to help take the Biden-Harris COVID plan.

More examples of real leadership and the real lack thereof. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 08, 2020, 02:03:19 pm
And I had this moment of epiphany: Now Trump has no chance for a Nobel peace prize. Bwahahahaha...
He might make a fake Nobel peace price and hang them in his golf courses just as he did with fake Time Man of the Year covers. He said he'd win the Noble peace price, his spelling issues and comprehension issues are seen from some of his followers too.  ;D
When you or your followers are so deep in an unreality bubble, the facts are all 'fake news' and the fake stuff (like voter fraud) are their alternative facts. As we see here, it's just impossible to puncture some people's unreality bubble.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: MattBurt on November 08, 2020, 03:26:29 pm
Hearing intelligent kind and coherent words from the president elect was beautiful yesterday. He didn't even say tremendous once!
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 08, 2020, 03:36:31 pm
Hearing intelligent kind and coherent words from the president elect was beautiful yesterday. He didn't even say tremendous once!
Or 'bigly', 'Big-league'' or 'covfefe' :D
These must be his code words to QAnon supporters in the magical country of "Nambia."
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 08, 2020, 04:23:17 pm
This is just hilarious. Trump tweeted earlier today:

"Best pollster in Britain wrote this morning that this clearly was a stolen election, that it’s impossible to imagine that Biden outran Obama in some of these states."

Turns out the best pollster in Britain is a fraud.

Trump Clings to ‘Best Pollster’ Accused of Faking PhD

https://www.thedailybeast.com/patrick-basham-trumps-best-pollster-accused-of-faking-cambridge-phd

Tremendous. Just tremendous.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 08, 2020, 04:29:50 pm
Nothing new there. That's just a rehash from Wednesday. Only the date has changed.

And I had this moment of epiphany: Now Trump has no chance for a Nobel peace prize. Bwahahahaha...

Not to despair - Trump still qualifies for the Guinness Greatest Liar Prize.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 08, 2020, 04:35:32 pm
Hearing intelligent kind and coherent words from the president elect ...

Coherent words coming from Biden!? That's really, really, rich. Or the meds that good.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 08, 2020, 05:15:01 pm
You can have conspiratorial fun or look for actual facts....

Clerks around the state will at times use voter registrations as the denominator for measuring turnout...

Fair enough.

But the blame is on the clerks, not conspiracy theorists. They used what was given to them (by the clerks).
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 08, 2020, 05:35:11 pm
They didn't just try and destroy Trump, they tried to destroy his supporters as well.  It continues still today.

Why would resistance be ill advised?  The Biden, or shall we say the Left agenda runs counter to many of the things people on the right hold dear.  Why should we not resist?  The left just spend 4 years fighting the right and now you think we should just surrender?

The question is who is “we”.

You belong to a tiny minority of extremists that in no way represents the bulk of people who voted against Biden in 2020. A large majority will quickly realize that painting Biden as a socialist was more Trump lies and that they are much better off with a competent President that cares about American people well being.

It seems you haven’t understood yet that a large majority of Americans was antigonized by Trump, not the opposite.

And the media was totally right to put you, Craig and a bunch of hardcore supporters, in the same bag as Trump himself because everything awful Trump did and said is on you also.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 08, 2020, 05:37:35 pm
Yep he stays until the 20th of Jan and then you will be free of him, unless some stange twist of fate brings him back to office.  I'm not holding my breath or counting any chickens.

There will be plenty of time to work over old Joe if he makes it to office.  Anyone making odds that he's gone before the 20th?

And how exactly would that happen?

Regards,
Bernard
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 08, 2020, 05:54:18 pm
Coherent words coming from Biden!? That's really, really, rich. Or the meds that good.

Actually, his speeches are getting better and better. Could be because of wearing the mask. Or his speech writers got better than Trump's.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 08, 2020, 06:04:56 pm
Actually, his speeches are getting better and better. Could be because of wearing the mask. Or his speech writers got better than Trump's.
Trumps speeches don't suck. But you can tell the second he goes off script and the language is typical Trump Gobbledygook.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 08, 2020, 06:21:11 pm
And how exactly would that happen?

Is that a call to murder?

Calm down. It would happen if Trump prevails in his lawsuits and recounts.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 08, 2020, 06:25:37 pm
Calm down. It would happen if Trump prevails in his lawsuits and recounts.

That isn't how Craig's post read but I sure hope your interpretation is the right one.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 08, 2020, 06:28:35 pm
You belong to a tiny minority of extremists that in no way represents the bulk of people who voted against Biden in 2020. A large majority will quickly realize that painting Biden as a socialist was more Trump lies and that they are much better off with a competent President that cares about American people well being.

It seems you haven’t understood yet that a large majority of Americans was antigonized by Trump, not the opposite.

And the media was totally right to put you, Craig and a bunch of hardcore supporters, in the same bag as Trump himself because everything awful Trump did and said is on you also.

I disagree with most if not all of Craig's political positions, but this is sheer nonsense from start to finish. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 08, 2020, 06:29:46 pm
That isn't how Craig's post read but I sure hope your interpretation is the right one.

You mean how you read Craig's post, not how Craig's post read.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 08, 2020, 06:42:17 pm
You mean how you read Craig's post, not how Craig's post read.

You probably mean that you read it differently, which I understand.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 08, 2020, 06:50:12 pm
I disagree with most if not all of Craig's political positions, but this is sheer nonsense from start to finish. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

I could of course be wrong, but:
- it seems clear that many people who voted for Trump are far from being supporters, they just think that Biden is a worse option
- their opinion was most probably strongly influenced by Trump's campaign. Strangely, although many agree that Trump lies all the time, they seem to lend some truth to what he has been saying about Biden, in particular being a socialist. Since we know he isn't one, there is a high probability that many voters will realize soon enough that Biden is actually going to try to be the President of all Americans. Of course I do understand that in some families/areas people will never vote Democrat even if the Republican candidate were the Devil itself and told them not to vote for him,
- there was certainly a negative bias against Trump from the beginning in main stream media, but he could have turned that easily had he been a good President and accepted the role of the press in a Democracy. Instead he choose to antagonize them, as well as all the American who were not supporters of his
- and my opinion remains that, beyond a certain point, in particular since the covid19 started, those who continued to support trump against all odds carry a responsibility in the easily avoidable tens of thousands of extra covid casualties resulting from Trump's approach to governance. I also happen to think that the Germans who put Hitler in office had a responsibility for the Holocaust. At least I am consistent. Probably because I believe in democracy and think that voting is an important act.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 08, 2020, 07:17:22 pm
those who continued to support trump against all odds carry a responsibility in the easily avoidable tens of thousands of extra covid casualties resulting from Trump's approach to governance. I also happen to think that the Germans who put Hitler in office had a responsibility for the Holocaust. At least I am consistent. Probably because I believe in democracy and think that voting is an important act.

Cheers,
Bernard

Absolutely correct. Trump and the other villain couldn't have done all the damage without the silent approval of their supporters what gave them the apparent legitimacy.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 08, 2020, 07:35:11 pm
Different kind of statistics have been revealed today. Alcohol sales soared 68% on Election Day, with Democratic states buying the most.

Quote
According to boozy delivery app Drizly, Tuesday’s election saw a massive jump in sales through its platform, to the tune of a 68% increase over the previous four Tuesdays.
Major cities in particular saw large jumps in sales, with orders coming in 133% higher in Washington D.C. than the four previous Tuesdays, 110% higher in New York City, 55% higher in Chicago, and 34% higher in Los Angeles. While the 2020 election has certainly been polarizing for the nation, Drizly says it wasn’t completely out of the ordinary as far as sales go. The company says that the 2016 election also saw an increase in sales of 69% compared to the four previous Tuesdays.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/alcohol-sales-up-68-percent-election-day-2020-drizly-210808804.html
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 08, 2020, 07:39:14 pm
Different kind of statistics have been revealed today. Alcohol sales soared 68% on Election Day, with Democratic states buying the most.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/alcohol-sales-up-68-percent-election-day-2020-drizly-210808804.html
How about recreational marijuana?  ;D
Biden should make that easier hopefully!
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 08, 2020, 08:29:29 pm
You guys probably all knew this study already, but it's a good read and may explain many of the perceptions that have resulted in Trump loosing by a smaller margin than expected, and that now result in some Trump voters thinking that the world is about to end.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/359/6380/1146

cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JoeKitchen on November 08, 2020, 10:19:51 pm
Seriously, some people here need to get a life or ... a hobby, like wine making. 

I have not looked at this site in three days and this topic some home added 20 pages to it. 

As I tell my assistants, you're not an alcoholic, just an enthusiasts, if you make it yourself.  I thank God I don't have the room for a still.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 09, 2020, 07:29:08 am
...some Trump voters thinking that the world is about to end.

Not "about to," but starting a descent.

Note that the USSR ended only after 70+ years.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 09, 2020, 07:31:46 am
Absolutely correct. Trump and the other villain couldn't have done all the damage without the silent approval of their supporters what gave them the apparent legitimacy.

Absolutely! Simple solution: gulags for them. The Bartender-in-Chief has already been compiling the list.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 09, 2020, 07:34:40 am
I disagree with most if not all of Craig's political positions, but this is sheer nonsense from start to finish. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

I disagree with many of your post in the past (and probably future), but this one I agree with.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 09, 2020, 07:38:10 am
... hose who continued to support trump against all odds carry a responsibility...

[like]

... the Germans who put Hitler in office had a responsibility for the Holocaust...

And the Godwin's Law Award for 2020* goes to... Bernard!

*Just when you thought 2020 can not get any worse
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JoeKitchen on November 09, 2020, 08:05:58 am
The question is who is “we”.

You belong to a tiny minority of extremists that in no way represents the bulk of people who voted against Biden in 2020. A large majority will quickly realize that painting Biden as a socialist was more Trump lies and that they are much better off with a competent President that cares about American people well being.

It seems you haven’t understood yet that a large majority of Americans was antigonized by Trump, not the opposite.

And the media was totally right to put you, Craig and a bunch of hardcore supporters, in the same bag as Trump himself because everything awful Trump did and said is on you also.

Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard, you really are the most arrogant person I know of along with being a control freak who thinks he can tell others what to do. 

Thank God you're not in power anywhere.  It is people like you who become tyrants. 

FYI, I really cant think of a single thing Trump did that was awful.  We got tax cuts, lower regulations, energy independent for the first time in my life (Biden will destroy that), we abandoned the single worse foreign policy in the history of my country, aka the Iran Nuclear deal, etc., etc.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 09, 2020, 09:15:49 am
Seriously, some people here need to get a life or ... a hobby, like wine making. 

I have not looked at this site in three days and this topic some home added 20 pages to it. 
As Harry S Truman one said “if you can’t take the heat get out of the kitchenJoe”  ;D
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 09, 2020, 09:50:03 am
You guys probably all knew this study already, but it's a good read and may explain many of the perceptions that have resulted in Trump loosing by a smaller margin than expected, and that now result in some Trump voters thinking that the world is about to end.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/359/6380/1146

I read the article. By what leaps of logic have you arrived at the conclusion that because false news appears to travel faster than true news on Twitter, "some Trump voters [think] that the world is about to end"? And how many is "some"?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on November 09, 2020, 10:52:04 am
One of the most nefarious results of the Trump administration was the polarization of society in USA, as witnessed in these threads. I hope the time comes when people can behave in a civilized way, and use common sense.

Unfortunately, Trump may be gone, but trumpism is here to stay. To have 70 million people voting for him is a significant result, and shows that a great part of the USA believes his "script" and narrative, however far from reality it may actually be.

Hopefully, he will come to his senses and promote an efficient transition.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 09, 2020, 10:56:38 am
FYI, I really cant think of a single thing Trump did that was awful.  We got tax cuts, lower regulations, energy independent for the first time in my life (Biden will destroy that), we abandoned the single worse foreign policy in the history of my country, aka the Iran Nuclear deal, etc., etc.

I can think of many awful things Trump did. Just in the Covid pandemic he did plenty of stupid, and even criminal mistakes and rushed actions which killed people and damaged economy.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 09, 2020, 11:13:31 am
I can think of many awful things Trump did. Just in the Covid pandemic he did plenty of stupid, and even criminal mistakes and rushed actions which killed people and damaged economy.

For example?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 09, 2020, 11:18:15 am
One of the most nefarious results of the Trump administration was the polarization of society in USA...

By the same token, it could be argued that the polarization started with Obama, and Trump was simply an answer to that. Remember, BLM, ISIS, burning down cities, executing police officers in cold blood, etc. all started under Obama.

There are studies, however, from the University of Chicago, for instance, that argue America is not more divided than in the past, just that people have shorter memory and availability bias to more recent news.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on November 09, 2020, 11:37:41 am
For example?

Allowing political rallies where people were present without the required measures to mitigate against the spread of the virus. That sort of attitude may lead to unnecessary deaths.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 09, 2020, 11:43:06 am
Allowing political rallies where people were present without the required measures to mitigate against the spread of the virus. That sort of attitude may lead to unnecessary deaths.

You mean like those celebratory gatherings across the USA for Biden the last couple of days? Or 100 days of uninterrupted protests, looting, and rioting?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 09, 2020, 11:50:23 am
For example?
Utter lack of leadership to promote Mask usage, just the opposite, ignoring the science of mask use, making it political. That ALONE is an example of how not to lead in a pandemic. The results based on the number of people infected and dead in the US are clear outside the unreality bubble of alternative fact believers.
Trump is now suggested more ralies to boast his ego while infecting others in a bubble without masks or protection. More deliberate malpractice, and lack of leadership.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 09, 2020, 11:51:20 am
Unfortunately, Trump may be gone, but trumpism is here to stay. To have 70 million people voting for him is a significant result, and shows that a great part of the USA believes his "script" and narrative, however far from reality it may actually be.

It will be interesting to see how many of his 70,000,000 supporters will continue to embrace Trumpism, however that may be defined, without Trump. To ask a very Trumpian question, what did they get out of the deal? Can they get they same from someone other than Trump?

Have any of you ever attended an old fashioned Baptist revival? My experience is that the preacher can be very persuasive, and tap into your emotions, and when he calls you to come down to the front of the stage to dedicate your life to Jesus Christ, many flood forward. Most of them shake it off in a week or so and return to normal. At least that is my experience. Will it be the same with Trump supporters?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 09, 2020, 12:00:09 pm
... Can they get they same from someone other than Trump?...

Cruz, Cranshaw, Haley, for instance.

I am more than happy to get rid of the billionaire jerk, while retaining his policy goals in broad terms.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 09, 2020, 12:09:36 pm
Cruz, Cranshaw, Haley, for instance.

I am more than happy to get rid of the billionaire jerk, while retaining his policy goals in broad terms.

I don't know about Cruz. He nearly lost his seat to Beto. And that was before he grew his COVID beard. Now he looks pretty creepy. Don't know much about Cranshaw. I had to look him up. Haley is a poor public speaker. Did you listen to her read her speeches from a notebook at the UN? Talk about droning on. None of them seem charismatic enough. You say you are happy to get rid of a billionaire jerk. Isn't that what a lot of his supporters want? Maybe not the billionaire part, but the jerk part? It seemed to me from listening to his supporters being interviewed that was what they liked best about him. Maybe I should say unconventional rather than jerk, but since you said jerk, it seemed fair to use it.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 09, 2020, 12:27:16 pm
I guess that is what needs to be determined...did Trump comply with the tax laws?

Now that he will soon be unemployed and no protection from investigation and possible prosecution, we'll hopefully soon find out:

Prosecutors are seeking eight years of Trump's taxes and other financial documents as part of the grand jury investigation. Trump, who has called the investigation a "political prosecution," sued to shield his tax records, instigating a protracted legal battle that has reached the Supreme Court. "He’s very vulnerable to prosecution," said Jimmy Gurule, a former Justice Department official in the George H.W. Bush administration, referring to Vance's investigation, which is seeking Trump's tax returns and other financial documents. "I think the threat is very real and very substantial."
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 09, 2020, 12:55:51 pm
Would anybody expect anything different from Rudy Giuliani?

Man featured at Giuliani press conference is a convicted sex offender

https://www.politico.com/states/new-jersey/story/2020/11/09/man-featured-at-giuliani-press-conference-is-a-sex-offender-1335241

He may have a perfectly valid claim of voter fraud; however, Rudy said he had 50 people lined up to testify, so why pick this guy?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Robert Roaldi on November 09, 2020, 01:01:36 pm
Now that he will soon be unemployed and no protection from investigation and possible prosecution, we'll hopefully soon find out:

Prosecutors are seeking eight years of Trump's taxes and other financial documents as part of the grand jury investigation. Trump, who has called the investigation a "political prosecution," sued to shield his tax records, instigating a protracted legal battle that has reached the Supreme Court. "He’s very vulnerable to prosecution," said Jimmy Gurule, a former Justice Department official in the George H.W. Bush administration, referring to Vance's investigation, which is seeking Trump's tax returns and other financial documents. "I think the threat is very real and very substantial."

Might he be open to other kinds of lawsuits as well, I can't help but wonder. He called a few people insulting names on public forums during his time. Insulting other politicians seems to be ok now, more or less, but when he calls non-political employees of the government, I'm thinking of guys like Fauci and others, in public forums where they can't defend themselves, is that really ok? Shouldn't that be open to redress in the time-honoured American method, the 10 year long lawsuit? At one point, Fauci had to have body guards because of death threats, maybe that was true of others, I wonder if a lawsuit blaming Trump for some of that could work.

I suspect that most people would be happy to just those things slide, especially if they're near retirement, but for others who still have careers to build, doesn't seem right that some clown with immunity from prosecution can just libel them like that.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Robert Roaldi on November 09, 2020, 01:03:28 pm
Would anybody expect anything different from Rudy Giuliani?

Man featured at Giuliani press conference is a convicted sex offender

https://www.politico.com/states/new-jersey/story/2020/11/09/man-featured-at-giuliani-press-conference-is-a-sex-offender-1335241

He may have a perfectly valid claim of voter fraud; however, Rudy said he had 50 people lined up to testify, so why pick this guy?

Just one eff-up after another, this Rudy. Might be a good time to retire from public life.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: MattBurt on November 09, 2020, 01:18:12 pm
Just one eff-up after another, this Rudy. Might be a good time to retire from public life.

Somehow this ties in perfectly with the dildo shop next door.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: armand on November 09, 2020, 01:25:34 pm
It will be interesting to see how many of his 70,000,000 supporters will continue to embrace Trumpism, however that may be defined, without Trump. To ask a very Trumpian question, what did they get out of the deal? Can they get they same from someone other than Trump?

Have any of you ever attended an old fashioned Baptist revival? My experience is that the preacher can be very persuasive, and tap into your emotions, and when he calls you to come down to the front of the stage to dedicate your life to Jesus Christ, many flood forward. Most of them shake it off in a week or so and return to normal. At least that is my experience. Will it be the same with Trump supporters?

I just stumbled across this article that talks about it: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/11/trump-proved-authoritarians-can-get-elected-america/617023/?utm_source=share&utm_campaign=share
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JoeKitchen on November 09, 2020, 02:31:07 pm
One of the most nefarious results of the Trump administration was the polarization of society in USA, as witnessed in these threads.

Ahhhh ... no.  That was Obama in 2012.

Now Trump did nothing to fix it, fo rsure, but Obama became an incredibly divisive president 2012 after it was evident his recession respose was a total failure. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JoeKitchen on November 09, 2020, 02:36:34 pm
I just stumbled across this article that talks about it: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/11/trump-proved-authoritarians-can-get-elected-america/617023/?utm_source=share&utm_campaign=share

Please tell me what Trump did that was authoritarian? 

Last I checked he did not have reporters arrested, like Obama, he did not overuse executive orders, like Obama, he never started a war without congressional approval, like Obama.  I could go on.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 09, 2020, 02:50:50 pm
Please tell me what Trump did that was authoritarian? 
Easy, but will you accept it?
One example, Trump telling the world, the FREE press was the enemy of the people.
Need a few dozen more? Easy to provide. But again, would you accept them? If you can't accept, the President of the United States telling us the press is the enemy of the people, it's pointless to attempt to provide other as egregious examples.   
Authoritarians want to lock up their opponents;  and where did we hear the chant "Lock them up"?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 09, 2020, 02:59:54 pm
Ben Carson gets Covid-19 possibly from the Chief of Staff.  Days after other top Trump administration officials were also found to be infected. Like Meadows, Carson was at an Election Day watch party in the White House Tuesday, though it wasn't immediately clear if that might be where he became infected or who else will get infected but to assume anyone was wearing a mask is iffy at best. That's how the current administration rolls.

Trump fires the Defense Secretary Mark Esper via tweet (in a lame duck session), in between watching TV while the U.S. became the first nation in the world to reach 10 million confirmed coronavirus cases. It took just 10 days to go from 9 million to 10 million cases (Make America Sick again).
72 days of chaos to follow from "The Trump Show". And many sick and dead. Wear your masks kids!
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Alan Klein on November 09, 2020, 03:15:34 pm
Pfizer announces 90% effective vaccine.   Stock market soars.  Did they have this information a week ago before the election but didn't release it?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 09, 2020, 03:17:53 pm
Pfizer announces 90% effective vaccine....

Fantastic! A 90% effective vaccine for a 99.9% IN-effective virus  ;)
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 09, 2020, 03:18:45 pm
... Trump telling...

Words.

Not deeds.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 09, 2020, 03:26:31 pm
Pfizer announces 90% effective vaccine.   Stock market soars.  Did they have this information a week ago before the election but didn't release it?

Trump must have had that information, because he has been saying for the last two weeks that he has rounded the virus. Since then the virus rounded up quite a few of his troups. 

If you book a Carnival cruise now, you'll get a free Covid vaccine after boarding the ship. On another note, AMZN sank today. Does that have anything to do with virus or Trump?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 09, 2020, 03:30:14 pm
Pfizer announces 90% effective vaccine.   Stock market soars.  Did they have this information a week ago before the election but didn't release it?
According to Pfizer and the independent body that made the report about the vaccine: NO!
Yet some will report these facts as ”Fake news”. It is not.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 09, 2020, 03:30:46 pm
Pfizer announces 90% effective vaccine.   Stock market soars.  Did they have this information a week ago before the election but didn't release it?

How gaslighting goes:
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Robert Roaldi on November 09, 2020, 03:32:10 pm
Ahhhh ... no.  That was Obama in 2012.

Funny, I don't remember that.

Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 09, 2020, 03:35:40 pm
Please tell me what Trump did that was authoritarian? 
Another example. 24 times, without proof, Trump calling those treasonous: a crime you don't lock people up, you put them to death:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.axios.com/trump-treason-russia-investigation-new-york-times-e1660029-c73c-4809-8bd5-8988f1ed4fda.html
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 09, 2020, 03:45:00 pm
Words.
Not deeds.
Indeed, your words don't carry much weight, the President of the United States does. Do look up the concept and origin of the Bully pulpit.
Words (from a President) do matter. It's another example of WHY the US is in such an awful position with Covid-19, and why so many think wearing a mask is political statement. They ignore science and facts because of words that affect deeds. Such deeds are one reason why, with 4% of the worlds population, the US has over 20% of the deaths and the highest infection rate of Covid-19 on the entire planet Earth. On Planet Trump, I suppose not so much but I don't live on that planet.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 09, 2020, 03:47:54 pm
... the US has over 20% of the deaths and the highest infection rate of Covid-19 on the entire planet Earth...

Not on a per-capita basis.

As for words, even if from the President, they matter only to snowflakes. For the rest of us, sticks and stones...
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Robert Roaldi on November 09, 2020, 03:49:21 pm
Not on a per-capita basis.

As for words, even if from the President, they matter only to snowflakes. For the rest of us, sticks and stones...

So why are so afraid of Biden's or AOC's words?     :)
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 09, 2020, 03:53:59 pm
So why are so afraid of Biden's or AOC's words?     :)

Totally not afraid of Biden's words... still trying to decipher them. Not sure even he knows what he is saying or trying to say.

As for AOC, these are not just words, the lists already exist (deed)... wait till the list becomes actionable and people start loosing jobs or promotions based on that. Besides, we do not have to wait at all... the cancel culture has been alive and very active for quite some time.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 09, 2020, 03:55:35 pm
Breaking news:
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 09, 2020, 03:58:31 pm
That is clearly one of The Babylon Bee's poorer efforts.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: MattBurt on November 09, 2020, 04:00:11 pm
Interesting how Pfizer is clarifying that although it is a part of the Warm Speed program, it did not accept any assistance from the US government.
Kind of undermines the admin's attempt to take some credit for it.
Pence breaks silence to take credit for Pfizer vaccine - and drugs company immediately denies Trump involved (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election-2020/mike-pence-covid-vaacine-pfizer-b1719698.html)
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 09, 2020, 04:01:38 pm
Not on a per-capita basis.
You must be kidding from a planet far, far away.
Do tell us what country has the highest number of infected humans on the planet called Earth, not planet Trump please.
Here is a visual as of today of deaths sir and cases. The virus is the same in each country. It doesn't affect political parties or other kinds of people differently, but the US is winning by a mile in the race to be the most infected. Those are the facts on this planet.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 09, 2020, 04:06:12 pm
Interesting how Pfizer is clarifying that although it is a part of the Warm Speed program, it did not accept any assistance from the US government.
Kind of undermines the admin's attempt to take some credit for it.
Pence breaks silence to take credit for Pfizer vaccine - and drugs company immediately denies Trump involved (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election-2020/mike-pence-covid-vaacine-pfizer-b1719698.html)

Who cares who claims credit for the vaccine development?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: BobShaw on November 09, 2020, 04:06:22 pm
Not on a per-capita basis (... the US has over 20% of the deaths and the highest infection rate of Covid-19 on the entire planet Earth...)


That makes it even worse!
The entire planet has 7.8 billion people with a death rate of 162 / million.
US has 300 million with a death rate of 736 / million.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 09, 2020, 04:06:47 pm
Interesting how Pfizer is clarifying that although it is a part of the Warm Speed program, it did not accept any assistance from the US government.
And now Pfizer makes it clear:
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 09, 2020, 04:09:16 pm
That makes it even worse!
The entire planet has 7.8 billion people with a death rate of 162 / million.
US has 300 million with a death rate of 736 / million.
Only on Planet Earth. On the planet the comment came from, no one dies of Covid-19. Or if they do get it, they are all flown by helicopter to Walter Reed where a staff of dozens of doctors give them experimental drugs.  :'(
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: MattBurt on November 09, 2020, 04:18:30 pm
Who cares who claims credit for the vaccine development?

I guess I do when those claims are unfounded and made by people in positions of authority.
Also the people who should be credited apparently care.

But I am indeed thrilled to hear about the vaccine. This will hopefully be the thing that makes it ok to return to normal-ish life.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 09, 2020, 04:21:43 pm
Not on a per-capita basis.

Here we go again. The old "we are not the worst" defense.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 09, 2020, 04:28:06 pm
I guess I do when those claims are unfounded and made by people in positions of authority.
Also the people who should be credited apparently care.

Trump is going to claim credit for it whether deserved or not. Trump supporters will give Trump credit whether deserved or not. It's baked in.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: MattBurt on November 09, 2020, 04:29:33 pm
Trump is going to claim credit for it whether deserved or not. Trump supporters will give Trump credit whether deserved or not. It's baked in.

True. I don't want to care but I'd be lying if I said I didn't.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 09, 2020, 04:31:24 pm
More good news (Can anyone in Trump World say otherwise?):

When President-elect Joe Biden moves into the White House in January, he will bring his two German shepherds, Champ and Major — the latter becoming the first shelter pet to reside there.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 09, 2020, 04:37:08 pm
You must be kidding...

Do you even know what per-capita means?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 09, 2020, 04:40:08 pm
Do you even know what per-capita means?
Do you even know how to read the actual data provided?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 09, 2020, 04:43:05 pm
Do you even know how to read the actual data provided?

I am much better qualified than you to read it. The data you provided is NOT per-capita.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 09, 2020, 04:47:10 pm
Interesting how Pfizer is clarifying that although it is a part of the Warm Speed program, it did not accept any assistance from the US government.
Kind of undermines the admin's attempt to take some credit for it.
Pence breaks silence to take credit for Pfizer vaccine - and drugs company immediately denies Trump involved (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election-2020/mike-pence-covid-vaacine-pfizer-b1719698.html)

That is how spin doctors work.

Who here thinks that when a government places an order for 600 million doses it does not constitute an incentive for research and production in itself???

(Bold mine)

Quote
Pfizer later clarified that they were considered “part” of Warp Speed, because the US government had placed an order for a potential vaccine. But they received no funding for its development, unlike their rivals.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 09, 2020, 04:59:39 pm
I am much better qualified than you to read it. The data you provided is NOT per-capita.
Doesn't matter. The US has done a terrible job and the deaths and infection rates make this clear to those outside the unreality bubble.
Fact: try dismissing them. USA 4% worlds population. Death rate from Covid-19, over 20% of World population. Explain why and explain how we have done such a great job here. Already provided population of China vs. US vs. Canada and their death rate. The USA had done a horrid job.
But you are ok with that? White, non college educated?  :)
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: armand on November 09, 2020, 05:04:26 pm
That is how spin doctors work.

Who here thinks that when a government places an order for 600 million doses it does not constitute an incentive for research and production in itself???

(Bold mine)

That order is valid IF they come up with the vaccine. The other companies got money to develop it. It basically just gives some provision that they would have a buyer which doesn't mean much with the current status, anybody with a working vaccine will have a buyer. That's because nobody can produce enough doses in such a short course. And 600 million doesn't compensate for the 2 billion that Pfizer said that it invested.

Also, before people go too far, this is just an early report. That 90% is unknown what it actually means, it's not independently reviewed. Does it prevent entirely, only the severe forms, does it work for immunosuppressed, and so on. As for side effects, there is no way you can entirely identify them in such a short course.

As for the virus being 99,9% benign, that's just the same idiocy that Trumplets are parroting over and over. It's missing the forest from the trees. Do some good and volunteer taking care of some of these "nonexistent" people and maybe you'll change your mind.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 09, 2020, 05:11:15 pm
That 90% is unknown what it actually means, it's not independently reviewed.
That and, no one yet knows how long it remains effective. We have a long way to go here. And once it's approved, if approved and we have all the data, it's going to first responders and the most in need, meaning the vast population will have to wait awhile, and that means taking seriously, social distancing and wearing masks etc. That's the population who don't listen to the Anti-Vaxxers and will actually take it.
We have a long way to go.  :'(
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Ray on November 09, 2020, 05:50:00 pm
Doesn't matter. The US has done a terrible job and the deaths and infection rates make this clear to those outside the unreality bubble.
Fact: try dismissing them. USA 4% worlds population. Death rate from Covid-19, over 20% of World population. Explain why and explain how we have done such a great job here. Already provided population of China vs. US vs. Canada and their death rate. The USA had done a horrid job.
But you are ok with that? White, non college educated?  :)

When comparing Covid-19 death rates per country it's a bit ridiculous to ignore the per capita rate.

US Covid-19 death rates are very bad but certainly not the worst in the world, per capita.

According to the following site, the US is the 11th worst. Belgium has the highest per capita death rate, at 1,136.79 per million. Both Spain and the UK have a higher death rate per capita than the US. Sweden, which has received a lot of criticism for not enforcing lock-downs, has a lower per capita death rate than the US, at 585.49 compared the 720.78 for the US.

It seems Australia is still 'The Lucky Country'. We have only 35.76 Covid deaths per million. However, New Zealand is even better at only 5.08 per million. China's Covid death rate is remarkably good at only 3.39 per million.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 09, 2020, 05:52:24 pm
This is a good look for the Trump campaign.

Trump advisor Kimberly Guilfoyle reportedly offered to give a lap dance to the person who donated the most money at a campaign fundraiser

https://www.businessinsider.com/kimberly-guilfoyle-reportedly-offered-lap-dance-trump-campaign-fundraiser-2020-11
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 09, 2020, 05:53:23 pm
When comparing Covid-19 death rates per country it's a bit ridiculous to ignore the per capita rate.

US Covid-19 death rates are very bad but certainly not the worst in the world, per capita.

According to the following site, the US is the 11th worst.

USA! USA! USA!
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Manoli on November 09, 2020, 05:56:47 pm
Quote
VP Pence tweets: HUGE NEWS: Thanks to the public-private partnership forged by President @realDonaldTrump, @pfizer announced its Coronavirus Vaccine trial is EFFECTIVE ...

Pfizer didn’t receive any funding from Operation Warp Speed for the development, clinical trial and manufacturing of the Coronavirus Vaccine. Rather, its partner, BioNTech SE, has received money, from the German government.

BioNTech is credited for contributing the messenger RNA technology, which prompts the body to make a key protein from the virus, creating an immune response. The biotechnology company already had a history of working with Pfizer on influenza vaccines, and in March they clinched a deal to co-develop a shot to prevent against Covid-19 at research sites both in the U.S. and Germany. The two companies began human testing of the vaccine in April, before the existence of Operation Warp Speed.

Berlin gave the German company $445 million in an agreement in September to help accelerate the vaccine by building out manufacturing and development capacity in its home market.

The US precommitted to pay $1.95 billion for 100 million doses of Pfizer's vaccine once it was approved.  Pfizer are right to emphasise that they did not receive government funding, because they were exposed to all the costs and risk of vaccine development.

source: Bloomberg
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 09, 2020, 06:12:47 pm
According to the following site, the US is the 11th worst.
Which considering the US resources etc, pretty butt awful.
I don't recall saying the US was the worst in the world did I?
11th in the world, is Trump working to move the number higher or lower? And those who listen to him (don't wear masks, mock those that do, make it political, don't listen to experts on epidemiology and instead promise to fire them). Again, the leadership in the US, in terms of handling the virus is 'only' the 11th worst in the world, despite our resources is a good metric? No.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 09, 2020, 06:13:31 pm
... Belgium has the highest per capita death rate, at 1,136.79 per million....

Just waiting for our resident Belgian to blame it on Trump.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 09, 2020, 06:15:31 pm
Fox News has begun abandoning Trump. Anchor Neil Cavuto cut away from Kayleigh McEnany's press conference this afternoon when she began asserting claims of voter fraud without proof. You would have thought it was MSNBC or CNN.

“Whoa, whoa, whoa. I just think we have to be very clear: she's charging the other side as welcoming fraud and illegal voting, unless she has more details to back that up, I can't in good countenance continue to show you this," Cavuto said."

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election-2020/kayleigh-mcenany-press-conference-today-fox-news-trump-b1720003.html

I am not planning on watching Tucker Carlson, Sean Hannity, and Laura Ingraham tonight, but it would be interesting to see if they are all Trump, all the time, or inching ever so carefully away from him.

Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 09, 2020, 06:16:43 pm
Anyone who doesn't understand what a huge government order means for a company has no clue how companies operate.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 09, 2020, 06:19:23 pm
And the hits keep on coming:
Trump adviser overseeing campaign legal challenges gets coronavirus.
Man, what's with this Trump guy?: COVID COVID COVID  :D
What comes around, goes around. Mostly these days, in the White House.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Manoli on November 09, 2020, 06:22:51 pm
That and, no one yet knows how long it remains effective. We have a long way to go here.

A very long way to go. It’s not a simple jab. It’s administered in two injections, three weeks apart and you’ll need 15 minutes recovery time after each one.  Won’t even go into the difficulties of keeping it at the impossibly low temperatures needed.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Robert Roaldi on November 09, 2020, 06:30:50 pm
This is a good look for the Trump campaign.

Trump advisor Kimberly Guilfoyle reportedly offered to give a lap dance to the person who donated the most money at a campaign fundraiser

https://www.businessinsider.com/kimberly-guilfoyle-reportedly-offered-lap-dance-trump-campaign-fundraiser-2020-11


PAAARTY!   But she could easily just have been goofing off for a laugh.

She's the girlfiend of Don Jr., the photo caption says. I can't remember, is it Don Jr. or Eric who's interested in the 2024 GOP ticket? I can't see either of them pulling off what their dad managed. Seems like a one-shot kind of thing to me.

I find family-based politics annoying. Happens in Canada a lot too. If people liked the monarchy, they should just have kept it instead of severing themselves from UK. At least their Queen still manages to exude some kind of decorum, if not dignity.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 09, 2020, 06:54:04 pm
She's the girlfiend of Don Jr., the photo caption says. I can't remember, is it Don Jr. or Eric who's interested in the 2024 GOP ticket? I can't see either of them pulling off what their dad managed. Seems like a one-shot kind of thing to me.

It is Don Jr. who has hinted at running for something. Apparently he has been quite the hit for Trump surrogate events, particularly out West. He is a big game "hunter" and is well known for killing an elephant chased off a game reserve by his guide in a jeep, and then cutting off its tail for a trophy. I read that somewhere. It is the kind of thing that is so unbelievable it must be true. I have seen a photo of him with a big knife in one hand and an elephant tail in the other. Not sure what you do decor-wise with an elephant's tail. And is it really hunting when you shoot an elephant with a high powered rifle with a telescopic scope? How can you miss? What's next? Grenade launchers? Mortars? Eric is the nitwit son who has been losing money hand over fist for the Trump Organization while dear old dad has been manning the White House.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 09, 2020, 06:58:41 pm
Not on a per-capita basis.

As for words, even if from the President, they matter only to snowflakes. For the rest of us, sticks and stones...

But surely the US with all it's wealth and medical knowledge should not be compared to other nations that lack such resources.

I just looked at Cornavirus update and sorted by deaths / 1M pop and the USA sits in 10th place with countries like Brazil, Peru, Spain, Chile, Bolivia having a higher rate. Is that where the USA sits as far as "status" in the world...along side Bolivia and Chile?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 09, 2020, 07:00:40 pm
Interesting how Pfizer is clarifying that although it is a part of the Warm Speed program, it did not accept any assistance from the US government.
Kind of undermines the admin's attempt to take some credit for it.
Pence breaks silence to take credit for Pfizer vaccine - and drugs company immediately denies Trump involved (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election-2020/mike-pence-covid-vaacine-pfizer-b1719698.html)

Yep...and it all makes sense why Pfizer waited until after the election to release their findings...Trump no doubt would have taken all the credit for the vaccine.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 09, 2020, 07:02:44 pm
Here we go again. The old "we are not the worst" defense.

Yeh...we are in the race to the bottom with Chile and Bolivia.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 09, 2020, 07:04:31 pm
Yep...and it all makes sense why Pfizer waited until after the election to release their findings...Trump no doubt would have taken all the credit for the vaccine.
If only he took away any credit for injecting bleach or Hydroxychloroquine, this report today:

Hydroxychloroquine doesn't help patients hospitalized with respiratory illness from Covid-19, according to research published Monday in the Journal of the American Medical Association.
It's the latest of several studies to find the antimalarial drug does not work on Covid-19, despite President Donald Trump's promotion of the drug.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JV on November 09, 2020, 07:08:54 pm
he did not overuse executive orders, like Obama

Trump issued more executive orders than Obama.  He is averaging 47.6 per year versus 34.6  for Obama
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 09, 2020, 07:23:00 pm
Bernard, you really are the most arrogant person I know of along with being a control freak who thinks he can tell others what to do. 

Thank God you're not in power anywhere.  It is people like you who become tyrants. 

You must of course be right, but how can you tell from the post you quoted?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 09, 2020, 07:29:42 pm
Just waiting for our resident Belgian to blame it on Trump.

I won't.

Belgian authorities did a terrible job and they have a new government since then, as they should.

Note that the interim gov did nothing else wrong, that was enough to wipe them out and absolutely everyone agrees that them being fired was the right thing to do.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 09, 2020, 07:31:24 pm
Yeh...we are in the race to the bottom with Chile and Bolivia.

I am not sure how you calculate per capita. Do you add today's newborns to the pile every day?  I'm pretty sure the are more than 1200 newborns to offset the 1200 COVID deaths every day. So maybe our stats are constantly improving. There's something Trump can take credit for. Procreation.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 09, 2020, 07:32:42 pm
Trump issued more executive orders than Obama.  He is averaging 47.6 per year versus 34.6  for Obama
Yup!
It wasn’t too long ago that Donald Trump derided presidential executive orders as “power grabs” and a “basic disaster.”
Back in 2012, Trump had tweeted: “Why Is @BarackObama constantly issuing executive orders that are major power grabs of authority?”
Like playing too much golf, consistent Trump hypocrisy.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-executive-orders-barack-obama-president-powers-a9163431.html
Trump signs more executive orders in first three years than Obama despite calling them 'power grabs'

Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 09, 2020, 07:36:00 pm
PAAARTY!   But she could easily just have been goofing off for a laugh.

Maybe she thought she was at a fraternity party or something. Isn't she like 40?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 09, 2020, 07:39:47 pm
It will be interesting to see how many of his 70,000,000 supporters will continue to embrace Trumpism, however that may be defined, without Trump. To ask a very Trumpian question, what did they get out of the deal? Can they get they same from someone other than Trump?

Have any of you ever attended an old fashioned Baptist revival? My experience is that the preacher can be very persuasive, and tap into your emotions, and when he calls you to come down to the front of the stage to dedicate your life to Jesus Christ, many flood forward. Most of them shake it off in a week or so and return to normal. At least that is my experience. Will it be the same with Trump supporters?

We shall see. Although you seemed to strongly disagree with my statements 2 pages before that many Trump voters would soon realize that Biden isn't this bad and would therefore not oppose him strongly, it would appear you changed your mind?

I agree with you... and disagree also in part. :)

I agree that many of them aren't deeply into Trumpism, but at the same time I feel that Trumpism has infected the whole society, regardless of voting intentions. I believe that many people who voted for Biden are infected, I believe that the whole world is infected.

What they are infected by is all the implicit fondations of Trumpism... including relativsm of the worse kind (everything is the same as long as it fits my agenda), the weakening of truth, weakening of the belief that the scientific method is the best we have to establish knowledge, weakening of the respect for woman, of the respect for institutions,...

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 09, 2020, 07:51:43 pm
We shall see. Although you seemed to strongly disagree with my statements 2 pages before that many Trump voters would soon realize that Biden isn't this bad and would therefore not oppose him strongly, it would appear you changed your mind?

I don't know how you arrived at that conclusion. I did not make a statement. I asked a question.

I agree with you... and disagree also in part. :)

I don't know how you can agree or disagree with me. I did not make a statement. I asked a question.

I agree that many of them aren't deeply into Trumpism, but at the same time I feel that Trumpism has infected the whole society, regardless of voting intentions. I believe that many people who voted for Biden are infected, I believe that the whole world is infected.

I don't know who you are agreeing with. Certainly not me. I made no statement to that effect.

What they are infected by is all the implicit fondations of Trumpism... including relativsm of the worse kind (everything is the same as long as it fits my agenda), the weakening of truth, weakening of the belief that the scientific method is the best we have to establish knowledge, weakening of the respect for woman, of the respect for institutions,...

You certainly seem to know a lot about 70,000,000 Americans.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 09, 2020, 08:13:12 pm
I wonder if the Danes got the minks from China?

Israelis may be infected with new coronavirus strain from Denmark minks

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/israelis-may-be-infected-with-new-coronavirus-strain-from-denmark-minks-648513
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 09, 2020, 08:17:46 pm
Looks like Barr is entering the frey.

AG Barr authorizes DOJ probe of allegations of ‘voting irregularities’ in 2020 election

https://nypost.com/2020/11/09/barr-authorizes-probe-of-allegations-of-voting-irregularities-in-election/

As is usual, this is an information free article from the New York Post.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Chris Kern on November 09, 2020, 08:18:59 pm
Pfizer announces 90% effective vaccine. . . .

Welcome back!  We've all felt deprived of your trenchant commentary on events of the day.  While you were away, you missed some important developments: Trump won the election.  Then Biden stole it.  Trump responded with his usual equanimity.  The United States turned the corner on COVID-19.  The stock market plummeted on news that Trump will no longer be in office after January 20.  Heads of government all over the world commiserated with Trump, and told him how grateful they were for his exemplary leadership.  Except for Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping—but they are widely reported by certain social media (you know which ones) to be closet Biden supporters.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 09, 2020, 08:33:05 pm
I don't know how you arrived at that conclusion. I did not make a statement. I asked a question.

I don't know how you can agree or disagree with me. I did not make a statement. I asked a question.

I don't know who you are agreeing with. Certainly not me. I made no statement to that effect.

When someone tells you A, and you answer well, it could be -A, I have seen cases where -A is happening. I wonder if -A is going to happen.

You do understand that, even if you phrase your answer as a question, you convey a strong message that you believe about the possibility that -A could happen instead of the proposed A, right? If not I am not sure to understand why you bothered writing about -A in the first place. Perhaps you could explain?

This feels like a pretty universal way to converse among logical adults. I mean adults not having been infected by Trumpism (supporters or not). ;)

Regardless, sorry if I did misunderstand your post, please just understand my answer as being relative to -A.

You certainly seem to know a lot about 70,000,000 Americans.

I see that we are still not past the point where you don't agree that an external view about America could be relevant. I hope that the many academicians in the world who study systems from outside won't have their feelings hurt.

Please do at least acknowledge that I mostly did not comment only about 70 million Americans, I did comment mostly about 380 million Americans since the very meaning of my post was that Trumpism's influence isn't stopping at Trump supporters. I also took the liberty to comment about 6 billion citizens outside the US. I know... crazy... how do I dare to have such opinions. ;) The only conforting thing, I guess, is that hunderds of books have been written about the influence of Trump. I have only read a few of them. They pretty much all seem to agree. I fear that you may not consider any recommendation from me as relevant, but for others who may be more open minded, I recommend Ken Wilber's "Trump and a Post-Truth World".

Is your opinion different?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 09, 2020, 08:46:42 pm
When someone tells you A, and you answer well, it could be -A, I have seen cases where -A is happening. I wonder if -A is going to happen.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

You do understand that, even if you phrase your answer as a question, you convey a strong message that you believe about the possibility that -A could happen instead of the proposed A, right? If not I am not sure to understand why you bothered writing about -A in the first place. Perhaps you could explain?

You are just reading things into the questions I asked.

Regardless, sorry if I did misunderstand your post, please just understand my answer relative to -A.

Again, I have no idea what you are talking about.

I see that we are still not past the point where you don't agree that an external view about America could be relevant.

They may be relevant if they are well founded.

I hope that none of the many academicians in the world who study systems from outside won't have their feelings hurt.

Are you an academician who studies systems from the outside?

Please do at least acknowledge that I mostly did not comment only about 70 million Americans, I did comment mostly about 380 million Americans since the very meaning of my post was that Trumpism's influence isn't stopping at Trump supporters. I also took the liberty to comment about 6 billion citizens outside the US. I know... crazy... how do I dare to have such opinions. ;)

There are only 330 million Americans. You are free to hold whatever opinions you wish.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 09, 2020, 08:51:12 pm
Looks like Barr is entering the frey.
AG Barr authorizes DOJ probe of allegations of ‘voting irregularities’ in 2020 election
Let them probe. What is still missing is any evidence of wide spread irregularities, certainly anything at a scale which would alter the results thus far.
What's alarming is a huge delay, both in moving the new administration forward (they getting zero cooperation from the current admin), or far worse, disputes over electoral votes: a state legislature has the authority under the Constitution to appoint the state’s electors, regardless of the status of the popular vote. That could be Trump's game plan and one that would be awful for the country.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 09, 2020, 08:52:16 pm
I have no idea what you are talking about.

You are just reading things into the questions I asked.

So you don't understand, but then you understand?

There are only 330 million Americans. You are free to hold whatever opinions you wish.

OK, I see it's a bit hard to have an adult conversation with you.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Robert Roaldi on November 09, 2020, 09:43:56 pm
Maybe she thought she was at a fraternity party or something. Isn't she like 40?

Isn't 40 the new 20?

Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Alan Klein on November 09, 2020, 09:58:02 pm
Welcome back!  We've all felt deprived of your trenchant commentary on events of the day.  While you were away, you missed some important developments: Trump won the election.  Then Biden stole it.  Trump responded with his usual equanimity.  The United States turned the corner on COVID-19.  The stock market plummeted on news that Trump will no longer be in office after January 20.  Heads of government all over the world commiserated with Trump, and told him how grateful they were for his exemplary leadership.  Except for Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping—but they are widely reported by certain social media (you know which ones) to be closet Biden supporters.
Thanks. Nice to be back.    I was very busy helping to count the vote in Philadelphia.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Robert Roaldi on November 09, 2020, 10:03:07 pm
Let them probe. What is still missing is any evidence of wide spread irregularities, certainly anything at a scale which would alter the results thus far.
What's alarming is a huge delay, both in moving the new administration forward (they getting zero cooperation from the current admin), or far worse, disputes over electoral votes: a state legislature has the authority under the Constitution to appoint the state’s electors, regardless of the status of the popular vote. That could be Trump's game plan and one that would be awful for the country.

This is a podcast interview from NPR's Fresh Air with Barton Gellman of The Atlantic https://www.npr.org/2020/11/04/931322781/atlantic-writer-says-current-election-is-a-stress-test-of-american-democracy (https://www.npr.org/2020/11/04/931322781/atlantic-writer-says-current-election-is-a-stress-test-of-american-democracy).

A couple of paragraphs from the intro blurb to the podcast

<<<<<
"He updated that story earlier this week in an article titled "How Trump Could Attempt A Coup" about the legal strategies of the Trump and Biden teams to win in the courts if the election is contested. Gellman writes, (reading) our electoral system was not built to withstand a sustained assault on its legitimacy.

Gellman is a staff writer at The Atlantic. He wrote extensively about the expansion of executive power during the George W. Bush administration and is the author of a book about the Cheney vice presidency called "Angler." He's also the author of "Dark Mirror: Edward Snowden And The American Surveillance State."
>>>>



He addresses many of the methods that are open to Trump to try and circumvent the vote, what strategies they might use, and what the counter strategies might be. I listened to it during a long car ride. I was a bit shocked to hear all the ways that voters' wishes could be thwarted in a country that makes high claims to democracy. The tactics he described would be right at home in the kind of "third-world dictatorial shit hole" that existed in 1952. Shouldn't the actual vote count mean something?

Maybe we're just misunderstanding Trump. He's used to being a CEO and CEO's don't get outvoted or even disagreed with. Maybe he didn't completely realize that he could lose the election and that losing means he has to go away now. I see that he replaced the Secretary of Defense this morning, via Twitter of course. Very classy. The timing is odd to say the least. The new guy won't have finished moving in his favourite plants when Biden's appointee will show up with his own pots.


Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 10, 2020, 06:57:20 am
OK, I see it's a bit hard to have an adult conversation with you.

Can't stand to be corrected, eh? Not surprising.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Manoli on November 10, 2020, 07:22:35 am
Brief profile and story behind the Turkish-German scientists, founders of Biontech, and the vaccine.

Quote
Until last year Biontech, founded in 2008 and based in Mainz, was best known for building personalised cancer “vaccines” out of messenger RNA (mRNA), which carries genetic instructions for cells. Essentially, the vaccines prompt the body to mobilise against cancer the way it would against a virus.

Fortunately for mankind, this strategy would also be theoretically quite handy against the coronavirus.

In January Dr Sahin read an article in The Lancet about an outbreak of a novel infectious disease in Wuhan. He instantly spotted the danger. “Experts experienced with previous outbreaks said this will come and go,” he told the Financial Times months later. “I said, ‘No, this time it is different.’ ”

Within days of the pandemic’s arrival in Germany, Dr Tureci, Dr Sahin and their colleagues began adapting their technology to Covid-19. Biontech was placed on a “war footing” for what was known internally as the “speed of light” project because of the intense time pressure it was under.

Pfizer, an American pharmaceutical company, soon piled in with funding and the company’s share price tripled over the course of the summer. This increased the couple’s fortune to roughly €2.4 billion (£2.16 billion) by September, according to the Welt am Sonntag newspaper, which ranked the couple at 85th on its national rich list. Their young company is now worth more than €20 billion, making it more valuable than Porsche and Deutsche Bank.

Biontech’s mRNA-based approach is technically ambitious compared with the methods of other groups including the Oxford team, who have taken the more tried-and-tested path of adapting a virus that already exists in nature.

The manufacturing process, in which the mRNA is bundled into a microscopic blob of fat, is well suited to mass production and the company has said that it aims to have 100 million doses waiting to go by the end of the year. But the colossal scales involved are uncharted territory for the technique.

If the experiment pays off, it will not just be good news in the battle against coronavirus, as well as a vindication and a fabulously lucrative payday — on paper at least — for the scientists. It will also be proof of a concept for a promising new way of warding off a whole menagerie of diseases from HIV to melanoma through the body’s own fortifications.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 10, 2020, 07:37:39 am
Can't stand to be corrected, eh? Not surprising.

It's more that you are behaving like my 8 years old daughter. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 10, 2020, 07:48:17 am
It's more that you are behaving like my 8 years old daughter. ;)

What, challenging your authority?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Alan Klein on November 10, 2020, 07:55:18 am
We shall see. Although you seemed to strongly disagree with my statements 2 pages before that many Trump voters would soon realize that Biden isn't this bad and would therefore not oppose him strongly, it would appear you changed your mind?

I agree with you... and disagree also in part. :)

I agree that many of them aren't deeply into Trumpism, but at the same time I feel that Trumpism has infected the whole society, regardless of voting intentions. I believe that many people who voted for Biden are infected, I believe that the whole world is infected.

What they are infected by is all the implicit fondations of Trumpism... including relativsm of the worse kind (everything is the same as long as it fits my agenda), the weakening of truth, weakening of the belief that the scientific method is the best we have to establish knowledge, weakening of the respect for woman, of the respect for institutions,...

Cheers,
Bernard

I disagree with your derision of almost half the American people.  Over 70 million people voted for Trump at  47 1/2% which is a larger percent than 4 years ago at 46%  While many maybe most didn't like his antics, they still felt he accomplished a lot of good things for America and was the better candidate.  I wish Biden a lot of success.  If he can get the country back on track and keep the peace as Trump did over the last four years,  America and the world will be better off.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 10, 2020, 08:04:00 am
Did Team Trump file any new lawsuits yesterday? Didn't see any. Read something about it taking them until the end of the week to get organized. So maybe Trump meant next Monday.

There was a hearing yesterday on a previously filed suit in Arizona. Apparently it involves 180 ballots. Trump is trailing by 15,000 votes. Baby steps, I guess. Next hearing is on Wednesday when they will actually have to offer up some evidence instead of just waving their hands in the air.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/laurieroberts/2020/11/09/trumps-claim-fraud-arizona-amounts-most-180-votes/6229791002/

Meanwhile, Trump is quibbling with Pfizer over who should get credit for Pfizer's progress on developing a vaccine. No word yet on whether Trump will accept a certificate of participation or continue his demand for a trophy. Mike Pence seems to be angling for a trophy too.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: kers on November 10, 2020, 08:35:36 am
It seems China and Russia are not too happy with Biden, not to mention North korea.
I can imagine: instead of dealing with Trump only now they have to deal again with a group of experts headed by a president.
Less easy to manipulate.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: jeremyrh on November 10, 2020, 08:39:22 am
Did Team Trump file any new lawsuits yesterday?

Really, Frank - who gives a stuff about Trump any more?  He lost and will soon be gone, whether to Mar a Lago or Rikers Island. His refusal to do what is the right thing for the country and ensure a smooth transition is just a final illustration of the sort of man he is.

Fin.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 10, 2020, 08:51:05 am
What, challenging your authority?

Another beautiful example. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 10, 2020, 08:58:54 am
I disagree with your derision of almost half the American people.  Over 70 million people voted for Trump at  47 1/2% which is a larger percent than 4 years ago at 46%  While many maybe most didn't like his antics, they still felt he accomplished a lot of good things for America and was the better candidate.  I wish Biden a lot of success.  If he can get the country back on track and keep the peace as Trump did over the last four years,  America and the world will be better off.

How is what I am writing derision of half the American people (you need to agree with the other poster about the numbers btw ;))?

You understand that Trumpism has nothing to do with a majority of Trump voters right (whether they voted for Trump of against Biden btw)?

What is referred to as Trumpism has been discussed at length and is pretty much everything about Trump that even his supporters dislike. The constant lies, the sexism, the racism, the unethical sexual behaviours, the rejection of science, the decision making ignoring facts,...

Or are you aligned with him on these also?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Manoli on November 10, 2020, 09:05:35 am
Meanwhile, Trump is quibbling with Pfizer over who should get credit for Pfizer's progress on developing a vaccine. No word yet on whether Trump will accept a certificate of participation or continue his demand for a trophy. Mike Pence seems to be angling for a trophy too.

I'm guessing there's more than a small dose of well needed levity in that post!

The $1.95 billion in the Pfizer agreement will only be paid out when the government takes delivery of the vaccines - after the FDA grants Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) or product approval. Whether the funds will be used to ramp up manufacturing of the vaccine is, at this juncture, a moot point.

The Pfizer/Biontech vaccine is expected to hit a major safety milestone—monitoring 50% of patients for two months after their second dose for side effects - in late November. If final efficacy data are similar to this early, non-peer-reviewed release, the vaccine could well be the first to be authorised by the FDA .
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on November 10, 2020, 09:22:45 am
... What is referred to as Trumpism has been discussed at length and is pretty much everything about Trump that even his supporters dislike. The constant lies, the sexism, the racism, the unethical sexual behaviours, the rejection of science, the decision making ignoring facts,...
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 10, 2020, 09:41:50 am
I'm guessing there's more than a small dose of well needed levity in that post!

I'm doing my best. I was going to add that when I was coaching my son's T-ball team an eternity ago, I had planned to run off on the computer some certificates for the boys at the end of the season using a new Microsoft program whose name I have long forgotten.  Well, when I casually mentioned my plan to one of the moms, she was horrified, and immediately took up a collection from the other moms to buy their sons trophies. Did I mention this was T-ball. That is the memory which springs from the depths of my so-called mind when I read that Trump and Pence wanted credit for Pfizer's progress on a vaccine. Why do I think Trump got a trophy when he stopped pooping his pants? Did you notice I gave Trump the benefit of the the doubt there?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Robert Roaldi on November 10, 2020, 10:16:02 am
Why do I think Trump got a trophy when he stopped pooping his pants?

Aw man, there's an image I didn't need.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 10, 2020, 10:29:46 am
Aw man, there's an image I didn't need.

Focus on the trophy, the trophy.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 10, 2020, 10:33:02 am
What is referred to as Trumpism has been discussed at length and is pretty much everything about Trump that even his supporters dislike. The constant lies, the sexism, the racism, the unethical sexual behaviours, the rejection of science, the decision making ignoring facts,...

From whence did you derive your definition of Trumpism?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Alan Klein on November 10, 2020, 11:31:21 am
Did Team Trump file any new lawsuits yesterday? Didn't see any. Read something about it taking them until the end of the week to get organized. So maybe Trump meant next Monday.

There was a hearing yesterday on a previously filed suit in Arizona. Apparently it involves 180 ballots. Trump is trailing by 15,000 votes. Baby steps, I guess. Next hearing is on Wednesday when they will actually have to offer up some evidence instead of just waving their hands in the air.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/opinion/op-ed/laurieroberts/2020/11/09/trumps-claim-fraud-arizona-amounts-most-180-votes/6229791002/

Meanwhile, Trump is quibbling with Pfizer over who should get credit for Pfizer's progress on developing a vaccine. No word yet on whether Trump will accept a certificate of participation or continue his demand for a trophy. Mike Pence seems to be angling for a trophy too.
When the vaccine works, hopefully, Biden and the Democrats will take credit for it and the distribution that Trump set up.  They'll claim they cured the world.  After all, it happened on their watch.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 10, 2020, 11:35:35 am
When the vaccine works, hopefully, Biden and the Democrats will take credit for it and the distribution that Trump set up.  They'll claim they cured the world.  After all, it happened on their watch.

Turn about is fair play. And I believe Biden's team is concerned about the vaccine being distributed under Trump's plan, and his task force is working on version 2.0.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on November 10, 2020, 11:38:50 am
When the vaccine works, hopefully, Biden and the Democrats will take credit for it and the distribution that Trump set up.  They'll claim they cured the world.  After all, it happened on their watch.

I think Biden is a better and more honest human being than Trump. So he will not do that.

Meanwhile, the transition process is the most difficult in 90 years, thanks to Trump not wanting to follow the normal procedure. Not surprising, given his cult of personality of himself.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on November 10, 2020, 11:42:58 am


Bernard forgot the following: incompetent, ignorant, narcisistic, and caboutin (presumed, pretentious, arrogant).

Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 10, 2020, 11:48:49 am
When the vaccine works, hopefully, Biden and the Democrats will take credit for it and the distribution that Trump set up.  They'll claim they cured the world.  After all, it happened on their watch.

Let's get this straight, it is the scientists at Pfiser and many other research facilities that should have the credit...not any politician, especially one that has put down research experts time and again. 

Maybe Trump should instead take responsibility for the weak response to Covid resulting in hundreds of thousands dead.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Alan Klein on November 10, 2020, 11:52:53 am
How is what I am writing derision of half the American people (you need to agree with the other poster about the numbers btw ;))?

You understand that Trumpism has nothing to do with a majority of Trump voters right (whether they voted for Trump of against Biden btw)?

What is referred to as Trumpism has been discussed at length and is pretty much everything about Trump that even his supporters dislike. The constant lies, the sexism, the racism, the unethical sexual behaviours, the rejection of science, the decision making ignoring facts,...

Or are you aligned with him on these also?

Cheers,
Bernard

You did it again.  You doubled down on implying Trump voters of all sorts of terrible things that aren't true.  Maybe we should be drawn and quartered as the Socialist OEC wants to do.  I think she would send us all away to a gulag.  Or worse. This is what is scary about the left. They could justify eliminating those who think differently then them "for the better good". 
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/09/aoc-cancel-worked-for-trump-435293
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Alan Klein on November 10, 2020, 11:58:50 am
Turn about is fair play. And I believe Biden's team is concerned about the vaccine being distributed under Trump's plan, and his task force is working on version 2.0.
Then it's fair play for Trump to take credit for where it is now, that a vaccine was developed two to fours years earlier than otherwise, and that the distribution was set up ready to go. Of course, the biased media has lied about this.  Even Pfizer may be in on it releasing the data a week after the election.  Do you think someone in the Biden camp winked and nodded at the Pfizer CEO to hold his news until after the election?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 10, 2020, 12:06:46 pm
Then it's fair play for Trump to take credit for where it is now, that a vaccine was developed two to fours years earlier than otherwise, and that the distribution was set up ready to go. Of course, the biased media has lied about this.  Even Pfizer may be in on it releasing the data a week after the election.  Do you think someone in the Biden camp winked and nodded at the Pfizer CEO to hold his news until after the election?

To credit Trump for the vaccine is bordering on the ridiculous. The world would be a better place if he stuck to playing golf and watching Foxnews. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JoeKitchen on November 10, 2020, 12:08:12 pm
Easy, but will you accept it?
One example, Trump telling the world, the FREE press was the enemy of the people.
Need a few dozen more? Easy to provide. But again, would you accept them? If you can't accept, the President of the United States telling us the press is the enemy of the people, it's pointless to attempt to provide other as egregious examples.   
Authoritarians want to lock up their opponents;  and where did we hear the chant "Lock them up"?

Calling fake news fake news is not authoritarian, you're just stating a fact. 

Insofar as calling for locking up your opponents, he did not do it.  It's called politics. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 10, 2020, 12:08:20 pm
Trump has been busy on Twitter this morning:

"Republicans, don’t let Andrew McCabe continue to get away with totally criminal activity. What he did should never be allowed to happen to our Country again. FIGHT FOR JUSTICE!"

McCabe was fired in January 2018 the day before his pension vested. Who says Trump can't hold a grudge?

"Highly Respected Ken Starr: “Pennsylvania’s three-day extension of the mail-in ballot deadline is a Constitutional Travesty.” Legal scholars agree!"

Biden is ahead in Pennsylvania by around 45,000 votes. This tweet relates to approximately 7800 ballots which were received in the three day period following election day. They are not included in the totals reported, and will make no difference in the vote count.

"BALLOT COUNTING ABUSE!"

Sort of vague don't you think.

"WATCH FOR MASSIVE BALLOT COUNTING ABUSE AND, JUST LIKE THE EARLY VACCINE, REMEMBER I TOLD YOU SO!"

We have been watching for a week and haven't seen much if anything.

"WE WILL WIN!"

Trump is in major denial.

"WE ARE MAKING BIG PROGRESS. RESULTS START TO COME IN NEXT WEEK. MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!"

So far, he's got virtually nothing.

"“Only because of President Trump, we are going to have a Vaccine by the end of the year.”  Ronny Jackson, Texas Congressman-Elect"

Ronny Jackson is the idiot White House physician who claimed with a few changes in diet Trump could live until he was 200. He also gave Trump an extra inch in height so he would register below the obese level on his BMI score. Jackson was subsequently nominated by Trump and then withdrawn for the head of the VA. Then he was fired for handing out pills to White House staff. By some miracle he was just elected to the House Of Representatives for a district in Texas.

"“President Trump told us for some time we would be getting a Vaccine by the end of the year and people laughed at him, and here we are with Pfizer getting FDA approval by the end of this month. He was right.” @MariaBartiromo"

This is a tweet of a quote from a Fox News anchor who apparently hasn't gotten the memo.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 10, 2020, 12:11:19 pm
Maybe we should be drawn and quartered as the Socialist OEC wants to do.

What is the OEC?

Otis Elevator Company? Offshore Energy Center? Oregon Environmental Council?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OEC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OEC)
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JoeKitchen on November 10, 2020, 12:13:09 pm
Funny, I don't remember that.

The country felt more unified then ever before in 2008, then Obama 2.0 decided to use identity politics for re-election.  This is what divided the country.  You seriously have to be blind to not see that a guy that broke up the country into nothing but groups (like white vs. blacks vs latinos vs. asians vs. rich vs. poor) and pitted them against each other did not divide the country. 

Obama was not a unifier, just Biden, the proud inventor of Borking, probably his only real accomplishment in his career, wont be either. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 10, 2020, 12:13:55 pm
Maybe we should be drawn and quartered as the Socialist OEC wants to do.

So who exactly is "Socialist OEC"?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 10, 2020, 12:14:37 pm
Calling fake news fake news is not authoritarian, you're just stating a fact. 

Insofar as calling for locking up your opponents, he did not do it.  It's called politics.

And statements like this are called ideologically induced historical blindness.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: kers on November 10, 2020, 12:15:04 pm
Then it's fair play for Trump to take credit for where it is now, that a vaccine was developed two to fours years earlier than otherwise, and that the distribution was set up ready to go. Of course, the biased media has lied about this.  Even Pfizer may be in on it releasing the data a week after the election.  Do you think someone in the Biden camp winked and nodded at the Pfizer CEO to hold his news until after the election?
Not everything is a political choice or a left conspiracy against poor loser Trump... ( and he just got less votes, it is a simple as that, it is called election)
It takes time to develop a SAFE vaccine.
If anyone gets credit it will be the manufacturer, not Trump or any other person that likes to be credited.
Many governments push the making of a vaccine, because fortunately most of them did not think Covid would go away by itself, miraculously.
Then the vaccin is still in a test fase; better a well tested vaccin than one with bad side effects, maybe even worse than covid.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 10, 2020, 12:15:21 pm
Then it's fair play for Trump to take credit for where it is now, that a vaccine was developed two to fours years earlier than otherwise, and that the distribution was set up ready to go. Of course, the biased media has lied about this.  Even Pfizer may be in on it releasing the data a week after the election.  Do you think someone in the Biden camp winked and nodded at the Pfizer CEO to hold his news until after the election?

More conspiracy theories. I guess I need to forward this to Alex Jones over at Infowars. It may take a while for him to get to it. He and a few of his friends are currently driving back to NYC from Arizona in some Chrysler minivans in what they are calling the "Stop the Steal Caravan". Perhaps they couldn't afford the flight back, or didn't want to wear masks on the plane, or something.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JoeKitchen on November 10, 2020, 12:15:54 pm
And statements like this are called ideologically induced historical blindness.

So, do you have any real examples? 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Manoli on November 10, 2020, 12:18:57 pm
Then it's fair play for Trump to take credit for where it is now, that a vaccine was developed two to fours years earlier than otherwise, and that the distribution was set up ready to go. Of course, the biased media has lied about this.  Even Pfizer may be in on it releasing the data a week after the election.  Do you think someone in the Biden camp winked and nodded at the Pfizer CEO to hold his news until after the election?

You're at it again.
More conspiracy theories.

In the spirit of the punctilious, let me point out that the the monoclonal antibody drug that Trump claimed so 'miraculously' saved him, Regeneron, was discovered by a Greek-American - the CSO and co-founder of Regeneron (the company) George Yancopoulos. Likewise the CEO and Chairman of Pfizer, Albert Boula - another Greek.

Alexander Fleming discovered Penicillin.
I doubt anyone cares, let alone knows, who was the Prime Minister of the day..
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 10, 2020, 12:19:42 pm
So who exactly is "Socialist OEC"?

He might have meant OPEC.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 10, 2020, 12:27:52 pm
The country felt more unified then ever before in 2008...

I don't seem to remember the country being united at the end of George W. Bush's term. I think that was the time of the financial collapse and general opposition to the continuing war in Irag. But hey, if you have fond memories, don’t let me burst your bubble.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 10, 2020, 12:28:55 pm
When the vaccine works, hopefully, Biden and the Democrats will take credit for it and the distribution that Trump set up.  They'll claim they cured the world.  After all, it happened on their watch.
All they need to take credit for, if it works out, is getting stupid Americans to wear a mask when outside, wash their hands, social distance. That's going to HAVE to happen between now and when (IF, big if) 300 million American's all get two shots of the vaccine (so 600 million doses). Thanks to Trump not only making fun of his own CDC guidelines over and over again, he's gone on record against vaccines. Let's see him step up, IF while in office, and get his first dose of the Vaccine to show Americans it's safe and he did such a great job getting it made.
Hold your breath while waiting for that happening Alan.   ;D
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JoeKitchen on November 10, 2020, 12:29:31 pm
You know, it really is amazing.  I thought a Trump defeat would break up the Republican party and unify the left.  Well golly, just the opposite happened. 

First, lets state the obvious, Biden is not the winner here.  As my brother (far left wing democratic operative) candidly told me last night, McConnell is the real winner of this race.  I know some of you have high hopes for GA, but no republican has ever lost a run off in GA for any position.  Plus, we only need to win one of the races, and Warnock has now been connected to Fidel Castro, plus he wont answer if he will pack the court.  Schumer is certainly not helping your hopes either. 

So I am predicting McConnell will stay majority leader, and that, along with the now "McConnell Court," will pretty much make Biden completely inert. 

Next, Republicans are fully unified and actually grew some balls, which is what Trump's real legacy will be.  Democrats, though, are now heading into a full out civil war while Pelosi refuses to denounce socialism when asked in press conferences.  It is going to be beautiful to watch.  At least when we went through this 2010, we had Obama to hid the unrest behind.  But this is going to be fully on display. 

And part of the reason is because it is obvious many lefties have been so broken by Trump, they are incapable of being fixed.  Look at Bernard over the past few days.  You would think he would be happy, but no. 

But the real reason the party will not be able to do this is because Biden (the only person who advised against the Bin Ladin raid) is more feckless then Obama.  Truly unifying the country would require Biden to turn to his left flank and tell them to knock it off.  He does not have the balls to do that. 

Division and break down of the Dems, along with McConnell and the court driving them insane, means Republicans have all of the momentum, especially considering our uptick in support from minorities. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 10, 2020, 12:31:12 pm
Calling fake news fake news is not authoritarian, you're just stating a fact. 
Yes, I'm stating facts.
"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." --Mark Twain
Like Trump's call of massive vote fraud, you too have provided zero proof. Easier to simply stick your head in the sand and call facts "fake news".
Quote
Insofar as calling for locking up your opponents, he did not do it.  It's called politics.
Like so many of Trump's followers, you don't believe his words carry weight when he says something irresponsible; he's just kidding.
Like that  other follower, do look up The Bully Pulpit.   
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JoeKitchen on November 10, 2020, 12:31:55 pm
I don't seem to remember the country being united at the end of George W. Bush's term. I think that was the time of the financial collapse and general opposition to the continuing war in Irag.

I was talking specifically about race.  1st quarter of 2009 had the most positive results ever from racial relation surveys.  It steadily dropped after that an took a nose dive in 2012. 

Now, as I stated before, Trump did nothing to improve this, but he was not the cause of it. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 10, 2020, 12:34:52 pm
So, do you have any real examples?

Every authoritarian regime in modern history starts by whipping up the populace with claims that the press is controlled by [insert relevant targeted group here] and can't be trusted, only the authoritarian can be trusted to tell the truth to the people.

Every authoritarian regime in modern history starts by whipping up the populace with claims that their opponents are criminals and/or treasonous and working against the people's best interest and the authoritarian threatens to lock them away or execute them for their treason.

The purpose of the rhetoric is to provide one or more targets on which to focus the fears, unhappiness, distrust, and concerns of the populace in order to gain power.

Want to borrow some books?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JoeKitchen on November 10, 2020, 12:35:04 pm
Yes, I'm stating facts.
"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please." --Mark Twain
Like Trump's call of massive vote fraud, you too have provided zero proof. Easier to simply stick your head in the sand and call facts "fake news".

Once again, I asked you for some specific real life things Trump did that makes him an authoritarian. 

Would you care to try again?  I dont care about rhetoric, but something tangible. 

I dont think you can name any, since you guys on the left have reaching at straws the last 4 years.  My favorite is when the left called him an authoritarian for this past year while at the same time complaining that he did not have the federal government take more authority over the states.   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 10, 2020, 12:35:49 pm
So, do you have any real examples?
Examples like previous ones you'll ignore or call 'fake news'?
Why ask? Answers based upon fact, data will fall on a pair of deaf ears.
The unreality bubble is very thick with this one.  ;D
Quote
Once again, I asked you for some specific real life things Trump did that makes him an authoritarian. 
Would you care to try again?  I dont care about rhetoric, but something tangible. 
CWOBaT (colossal waste of bandwidth and time).
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JoeKitchen on November 10, 2020, 12:38:32 pm
Every authoritarian regime in modern history starts by whipping up the populace with claims that the press is controlled by [insert relevant targeted group here] and can't be trusted, only the authoritarian can be trusted to tell the truth to the people.

Every authoritarian regime in modern history starts by whipping up the populace with claims that their opponents are criminals and/or treasonous and working against the peoples best interest and the authoritarian threatens to lock them away or execute them for their treason.

The purpose of the rhetoric is to provide one or more targets on which to focus the fears, unhappiness, distrust, and concerns of the populace in order to gain power.

Want to borrow some books?

Sound like how Dems talk about right wing news sources and their opponents, including Biden. 

You guys have been throwing this shit at us for decades, like calling someone a racist over a policy difference.  We, on the right, have had enough and plan on throwing it right back at you.  Get use to it, because your side has shown itself to be fully without grace. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JoeKitchen on November 10, 2020, 12:39:54 pm
Examples like previous ones you'll ignore or call 'fake news'?
Why ask? Answers based upon fact, data will fall on a pair of deaf ears.
The unreality bubble is very thick with this one.  ;DCWOBaT (colossal waste of bandwidth and time).

And yet again, nothing tangible. 

Would you like to try again?  Come on, if he was such an authoritarian, it should be ease to actually point to one real life thing he did instead living in your own fantasy. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 10, 2020, 12:41:00 pm
Sound like how Dems talk about right wing news sources and their opponents, including Biden. 

You guys have been throwing this shit at us for decades, like calling someone a racist over a policy difference.  We, on the right, have had enough and plan on throwing it right back at you.  Get use to it, because your side has shown itself to be fully without grace.

So, do you have any real examples?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 10, 2020, 12:43:04 pm
You guys have been throwing this shit at us for decades, like calling someone a racist over a policy difference.
So Trump's policy is siding with White Supremacists (good people on both sides), calling countries filled with people of color 'shithole countries'  telling congresswomen of color to "go back to where they came from", refusing to denounce white supremacists at the presidential debate?
Those are example's bud; straight from Trump.
Thanks for that  'data point' from Planet Trump.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on November 10, 2020, 12:43:19 pm
You know, it really is amazing.  I thought a Trump defeat would break up the Republican party and unify the left.  Well golly, just the opposite happened. 

First, lets state the obvious, Biden is not the winner here.  As my brother (far left wing democratic operative) candidly told me last night, McConnell is the real winner of this race.  I know some of you have high hopes for GA, but no republican has ever lost a run off in GA for any position.  Plus, we only need to win one of the races, and Warnock has now been connected to Fidel Castro, plus he wont answer if he will pack the court.  Schumer is certainly not helping your hopes either. 

So I am predicting McConnell will stay majority leader, and that, along with the now "McConnell Court," will pretty much make Biden completely inert. 

Next, Republicans are fully unified and actually grew some balls, which is what Trump real legacy will be.  Democrats, though, are now heading into a full out civil war while Pelosi refuses to denounce socialism when asked in press conferences.  It is going to be beautiful to watch.  At least when we went through this 2010, we had Obama to hid the unrest behind.  But this is going to be fully on display. 

And part of the reason is because it is obvious many lefties have been so broken by Trump, they are incapable of being fix.  Look at Bernard over the past few days.  You would think he would be happy, but no. 

But the real reason the party will not be able to do this is because Biden (the only person who advised against the Bin Ladin raid) is more feckless then Obama.  Truly unifying the country would require Biden to turn to his left flank and tell them to knock it off.  He does not have the balls to do that. 

Division and break down of the Dems, along with McConnell and the court driving them insane, means Republicans have all of the momentum, especially considering our uptick in support from minorities.

While you are at it, why don't you tell cheetos that he lost? And ask him to vacate the premises. It would be sad, albeit in line with his narcisistic trait, to watch a former president being dragged out of the house. I bet he is a big fan of calimero.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on November 10, 2020, 12:46:21 pm
Trump has been busy on Twitter this morning:

"Republicans, don’t let Andrew McCabe continue to get away with totally criminal activity. What he did should never be allowed to happen to our Country again. FIGHT FOR JUSTICE!"

McCabe was fired in January 2018 the day before his pension vested. Who says Trump can't hold a grudge?

"Highly Respected Ken Starr: “Pennsylvania’s three-day extension of the mail-in ballot deadline is a Constitutional Travesty.” Legal scholars agree!"

Biden is ahead in Pennsylvania by around 45,000 votes. This tweet relates to approximately 7800 ballots which were received in the three day period following election day. They are not included in the totals reported, and will make no difference in the vote count.

"BALLOT COUNTING ABUSE!"

Sort of vague don't you think.

"WATCH FOR MASSIVE BALLOT COUNTING ABUSE AND, JUST LIKE THE EARLY VACCINE, REMEMBER I TOLD YOU SO!"

We have been watching for a week and haven't seen much if anything.

"WE WILL WIN!"

Trump is in major denial.

"WE ARE MAKING BIG PROGRESS. RESULTS START TO COME IN NEXT WEEK. MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!"

So far, he's got virtually nothing.

"“Only because of President Trump, we are going to have a Vaccine by the end of the year.”  Ronny Jackson, Texas Congressman-Elect"

Ronny Jackson is the idiot White House physician who claimed with a few changes in diet Trump could live until he was 200. He also gave Trump an extra inch in height so he would register below the obese level on his BMI score. Jackson was subsequently nominated by Trump and then withdrawn for the head of the VA. Then he was fired for handing out pills to White House staff. By some miracle he was just elected to the House Of Representatives for a district in Texas.

"“President Trump told us for some time we would be getting a Vaccine by the end of the year and people laughed at him, and here we are with Pfizer getting FDA approval by the end of this month. He was right.” @MariaBartiromo"

This is a tweet of a quote from a Fox News anchor who apparently hasn't gotten the memo.

It's good to see him go,but his comical antics will be missed. Or, he will keep us entertained from outside of the house? Maybe he will hire someone to write his memoirs? Should be fun. I hope cheetos continues to provide some fun, but now without doing any harm.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JoeKitchen on November 10, 2020, 12:48:09 pm
So, do you have any real examples?

Like Obama spying on reporters he did not like and having them arrested? 

Like Obama having the IRS target conservative groups. 

Like Obama having his justice department put Dinesh D'souza in jail over some frivolous campaign contribution charge that pretty much everyone does not even have charges brought against them for just because Dinesh made a documentary critical of Obama.  Talk about hating on journalists. 

Like Obama and Biden going after Flynn with the Logan Act, something no one has even been prosecuted on.  FYI, John Kerry has been openly breaking the Logan Act over the last 4 years. 

Yes, I do have actual tangible examples. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JoeKitchen on November 10, 2020, 12:49:29 pm
While you are at it, why don't you tell cheetos that he lost? And ask him to vacate the premises. It would be sad, albeit in line with his narcisistic trait, to watch a former president being dragged out of the house. I bet he is a big fan of calimero.

He is President until January 20th.  Insofar as him fighting the results in court, Al Gore showed us in 2000 that this is fully within his rights. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Alan Klein on November 10, 2020, 12:50:27 pm
Not everything is a political choice or a left conspiracy against poor loser Trump... ( and he just got less votes, it is a simple as that, it is called election)
It takes time to develop a SAFE vaccine.
If anyone gets credit it will be the manufacturer, not Trump or any other person that likes to be credited.
Many governments push the making of a vaccine, because fortunately most of them did not think Covid would go away by itself, miraculously.
Then the vaccin is still in a test fase; better a well tested vaccin than one with bad side effects, maybe even worse than covid.

Trump argued we would get a vaccine this year.  He pushed the manufacturers and offered them financial reward.  He set up distribution through our armed force to move it expeditiously when ready.  He was right while the fake news media downplayed his claim. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Alan Klein on November 10, 2020, 12:52:03 pm
More conspiracy theories. I guess I need to forward this to Alex Jones over at Infowars. It may take a while for him to get to it. He and a few of his friends are currently driving back to NYC from Arizona in some Chrysler minivans in what they are calling the "Stop the Steal Caravan". Perhaps they couldn't afford the flight back, or didn't want to wear masks on the plane, or something.
Too convenient it came out a week after the election.  Pfizer sat on it, whatever the reasons.  Maybe they just didn't want to seem like they were playing favorites.  Whatever. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JoeKitchen on November 10, 2020, 12:53:57 pm
So Trump's policy is siding with White Supremacists (good people on both sides), calling countries filled with people of color 'shithole countries'  telling congresswomen of color to "go back to where they came from", refusing to denounce white supremacists at the presidential debate?
Those are example's bud; straight from Trump.
Thanks for that  'data point' from Planet Trump.

LOL, man, you really need to give up on fantasy.  First, read the full text, Trump did not call White Supremacists good people.  He specifically said in the same sentence that he was not talking about White Supremacists.  He also denounced them during the debate, and after the debate, and before the debate.  I actually remember Biden refusing to even acknowledge Antifa existing, let along denounce their violence. 

Second, I dont know about you, but Haiti is not on my short list of countries to visit. 

But once again, any real actual examples of something he did.  I keep on asking, but you keep on dodging.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 10, 2020, 12:54:27 pm
He set up distribution through our armed force to move it expeditiously when ready.

The current plan is to use normal vaccine distribution channels. It is unlikely the military will be used. So no Humvees in front of CVS.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 10, 2020, 12:56:11 pm
He is President until January 20th.  Insofar as him fighting the results in court, Al Gore showed us in 2000 that this is fully within his rights.

I've got no problem with the lawsuits. He is current 0-10 as of last Friday.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Alan Klein on November 10, 2020, 12:57:52 pm
You did it again.  You doubled down on implying Trump voters of all sorts of terrible things that aren't true.  Maybe we should be drawn and quartered as the Socialist OEC wants to do.  I think she would send us all away to a gulag.  Or worse. This is what is scary about the left. They could justify eliminating those who think differently then them "for the better good". 
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/09/aoc-cancel-worked-for-trump-435293
OK. OK.  I meant AOC.  Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. If anyone had looked at the link, they would have seen that.  Obviously you're not curious about the point only making fun of people like you do with Trump.  Curiously, you ignore Biden's.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 10, 2020, 12:59:29 pm
LOL, man, you really need to give up on fantasy.
Pot calling kettle black.
Next we'll hear from Joe's Kitchen in the unreality bubble is: Trump rarely (never?) lies.
"I've told more truth than George Washington". Almost as absurd as what he said he did for "his blacks" compared to Abraham Lincoln.
"I never encourage deceit, and falsehood, especially if you have got a bad memory, is the worst enemy a fellow can have. The fact is truth is your truest friend, no matter what the circumstances are"-Abraham Lincoln
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 10, 2020, 12:59:48 pm
Like Obama spying on reporters he did not like and having them arrested? 

Like Obama having the IRS target conservative groups. 

Like Obama having his justice department put Dinesh D'souza in jail over some frivolous campaign contribution charge that pretty much everyone does not even have charges brought against them for just because Dinesh made a documentary critical of Obama.  Talk about hating on journalists. 

Like Obama and Biden going after Flynn with the Logan Act, something no one has even been prosecuted on.  FYI, John Kerry has been openly breaking the Logan Act over the last 4 years. 

Yes, I do have actual tangible examples.

Still after Obama? You're fighting the last war, my friend.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 10, 2020, 01:00:13 pm
OK. OK.  I meant AOC.  Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. If anyone had looked at the link, they would have seen that.  Obviously you're not curious about the point only making fun of people like you do with Trump.  Curiously, you ignore Biden's.
You've provided ample evince who to ignore :P.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 10, 2020, 01:01:04 pm
OK. OK.  I meant AOC.  Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. If anyone had looked at the link, they would have seen that.  Obviously you're not curious about the point only making fun of people like you do with Trump.  Curiously, you ignore Biden's.

Biden's what?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 10, 2020, 01:02:15 pm
Too convenient it came out a week after the election.  Pfizer sat on it, whatever the reasons.  Maybe they just didn't want to seem like they were playing favorites.  Whatever.

Well it seems to go against what you are saying that Trump gave pfizer billions to develop the vaccine...and then pfizer sat on the results until after the election. Seems to me pfizer wanted Chetos out of the white house.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 10, 2020, 01:02:25 pm
I thought a Trump defeat would break up the Republican party... Well golly, just the opposite happened. 

https://www.npr.org/2020/11/09/933182112/republican-georgia-senators-call-on-republican-state-election-chief-to-resign (https://www.npr.org/2020/11/09/933182112/republican-georgia-senators-call-on-republican-state-election-chief-to-resign)

Georgia's Republican U.S. Senators Call On GOP State Election Chief To Resign

"Georgia's two Republican U.S. senators are calling on the state's top election official — also a Republican — to resign Monday after alleging "too many failures in Georgia elections this year" but without mentioning specifics to support their claims."
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Alan Klein on November 10, 2020, 01:03:43 pm
All they need to take credit for, if it works out, is getting stupid Americans to wear a mask when outside, wash their hands, social distance. That's going to HAVE to happen between now and when (IF, big if) 300 million American's all get two shots of the vaccine (so 600 million doses). Thanks to Trump not only making fun of his own CDC guidelines over and over again, he's gone on record against vaccines. Let's see him step up, IF while in office, and get his first dose of the Vaccine to show Americans it's safe and he did such a great job getting it made.
Hold your breath while waiting for that happening Alan.   ;D
Trump had the virus and has antibodies.  He doesn't need the vaccine.  He always supported the vaccine pushing his claim it would be developed this year.  You're totally wrong on this. 

I'm curious why you're still here.  You wanted to shut down the Coffee Corner and get back to photography. Not that I'm chasing you away, but I'm curious what happened to change your mind?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 10, 2020, 01:04:04 pm
Like Obama having his justice department put Dinesh D'souza in jail over some frivolous campaign contribution charge that pretty much everyone does not even have charges brought against them for just because Dinesh made a documentary critical of Obama.  Talk about hating on journalists.
Frivolous, hilarious  D'Souza himself actually pleaded guilty in federal court to one felony charge of using a "straw donor" to make an illegal campaign contribution to a 2012 United States Senate.
Trump to follow his path, but never pleading Guilty.  :P
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Alan Klein on November 10, 2020, 01:05:08 pm
He is President until January 20th.  Insofar as him fighting the results in court, Al Gore showed us in 2000 that this is fully within his rights. 
But Gore was a Democrat.  They're allowed. :)
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JoeKitchen on November 10, 2020, 01:06:12 pm
Pot calling kettle black.
Next we'll hear from Joe's Kitchen in the unreality bubble is: Trump rarely (never?) lies.
"I've told more truth than George Washington". Almost as absurd as what he said he did for "his blacks" compared to Abraham Lincoln.
"I never encourage deceit, and falsehood, especially if you have got a bad memory, is the worst enemy a fellow can have. The fact is truth is your truest friend, no matter what the circumstances are"-Abraham Lincoln
 
Let me just remind you what subject we are on, because it seems like you are easily distracted. 

Name me one tangible action Trump did that was authoritarian.  You so far have not named anything, and instead are trying to his rhetoric as examples, which are not tangible.

When someone says "show me the money!," they are not talking about Monopoly money, but actual greenbacks.  Just one tangible action please. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 10, 2020, 01:07:38 pm
Trump had the virus and has antibodies.  He doesn't need the vaccine. 
You don't know that, but you can make up stuff you don't know about. There is NO scientific proof getting the virus always produces antibodies in all cases and even if it does, there's no data on how long it will last. Further, Trump could still get the vaccine to show it's not harmful to his followers; he is unlikely to do so.
You ever get the flu? Does that mean once you do, you're immune? I understand you probably need to examine the answers and facts about the flu and Covid-19, please do so before posting assumptions based on lack of understanding.
Here, I'll help you a little, as in the past, you've had difficulties using "The Google Machine":

Common question
Do people who have recovered from the coronavirus disease develop immunity?

While individuals who have recovered from SARS-CoV-2 infection might develop some protective immunity, the duration and extent of such immunity are not known. Oct 5, 2020

Yet you think it's known; you're again not.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JoeKitchen on November 10, 2020, 01:10:37 pm
Frivolous, hilarious  D'Souza himself actually pleaded guilty in federal court to one felony charge of using a "straw donor" to make an illegal campaign contribution to a 2012 United States Senate.
Trump to follow his path, but never pleading Guilty.  :P

LOL

You seem to be pretty ignorant to how the justice department works when they go after someone.  D'Souza was targeted and he pleaded guilty because he was threatened with a litany of other trumped up charges. 

Anyway, just to be sure here, you claim to be on the right side while insisting Trump should go to jail after using Trump's rhetoric of jailing his opponents as an example of authoritarianism? 

Sounds like under your own rules, you're quite authoritarian and seem to want Biden to be as well.   ;)
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 10, 2020, 01:11:03 pm
  Name me one tangible action Trump did that was authoritarian. 
Gave several, you can't accept them. As predicted. Why keep asking people to provide anything you'll outright ignore and dismiss? Just stop asking. It's pointless and as you continue to prove A posting agenda of CWOBaT.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Alan Klein on November 10, 2020, 01:11:25 pm
The current plan is to use normal vaccine distribution channels. It is unlikely the military will be used. So no Humvees in front of CVS.
OK, the CDC has been working on the plan.  But the CDC is in the executive branch under the President's' control.  Their plan is his plan and responsibility.  If it's successful, he should get the credit.  If it fails, he should get the blame.  Of course, now that Biden will be president, he'll take the credit.  And blame Trump if it doesn't work.  That's what his former boss Obama did.  For seven years he blamed President Bush for his problems. :)
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/imz-managers/downloads/COVID-19-Vaccination-Program-Interim_Playbook.pdf
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JoeKitchen on November 10, 2020, 01:12:21 pm
Gave several, you can't accept them. As predicted. Why keep asking people to provide anything you'll outright ignore and dismiss? Just stop asking. It's pointless and as you continue to prove A posting agenda of CWOBaT.

You actually gave none, not one tangible example. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 10, 2020, 01:12:57 pm
LOL
You seem to be pretty ignorant to how the justice department works when they go after someone.  D'Souza was targeted and he pleaded guilty because he was threatened with a litany of other trumped up charges.
He pleaded guilty, there was evidence he was guilty and he served what he was due; that's how justice works in this country (well prior to Barr). 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JoeKitchen on November 10, 2020, 01:14:58 pm
He pleaded guilty, there was evidence he was guilty and he served what he was due; that's how justice works in this country (well prior to Barr).

Obama targeted him because of a movie critical of Obama.  They looked for something he did wrong and used the full weight of the government against him. He was targeted by Obama, an actual authoritarian. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 10, 2020, 01:15:35 pm
OK, the CDC has been working on the plan.  But the CDC is in the executive branch under the President's' control.  Their plan is his plan and responsibility.
Right, like how many times has Trump done stuff that goes totally against CDC guidelines? Too many to list but they exist.
This is just like the vote (If it's for Trump it's legal, if it's for Biden it's illegal): If the CDC does something that's good, Trump gets credit (and he should to some degree). If the CDC recommends something and he doesn't follow it, he should get blamed (yet he doesn't by his minions).
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Alan Klein on November 10, 2020, 01:16:55 pm
You don't know that, but you can make up stuff you don't know about. There is NO scientific proof getting the virus always produces antibodies in all cases and even if it does, there's no data on how long it will last. Further, Trump could still get the vaccine to show it's not harmful to his followers; he is unlikely to do so.
You ever get the flu? Does that mean once you do, you're immune? I understand you probably need to examine the answers and facts about the flu and Covid-19, please do so before posting assumptions based on lack of understanding.
Here, I'll help you a little, as in the past, you've had difficulties using "The Google Machine":

Common question
Do people who have recovered from the coronavirus disease develop immunity?

While individuals who have recovered from SARS-CoV-2 infection might develop some protective immunity, the duration and extent of such immunity are not known. Oct 5, 2020

Yet you think it's known; you're again not.
Can't you debate without insulting people?  Have a nice day.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 10, 2020, 01:17:10 pm
Obama targeted him because of a movie critical of Obama. 
That's what Obama told you right? Rubbish. In spades. You're really not to be taken seriously and by and large, are not. Adiós.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 10, 2020, 01:18:10 pm
Can't you debate without insulting people?  Have a nice day.
You feel insulted for making up stuff and passing it off, then being caught making up stuff and passing it off?
I'm sorry the facts have ruined your day.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JoeKitchen on November 10, 2020, 01:22:52 pm
That's what Obama told you right? Rubbish. In spades. You're really not to be taken seriously and by and large, are not. Adiós.

LOL.  Seriously, I am sitting here with a smile on my face.  You guys are suppose to be joyous, but Trump really did break you.  He broke you down to nothing, and now you are pissed conservatives are still going to be conservatives after this (lets face it) amazing election for my side. 

I really think deep down you know you guys know your era is ending, and that is why you are so upset. 

BTW, Obama did target him. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 10, 2020, 01:25:05 pm
Trump had the virus and has antibodies.  He doesn't need the vaccine. 
Before you leave the forums and facts behind, maybe you'll examine this, and recognize Trump and all his staff infected CAN get Covid-19 again:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30783-0/fulltext
In The Lancet Infectious Diseases, Richard L Tillett and colleagues describe the first confirmed case of SARS-CoV-2 reinfection in the USA.2 A 25-year-old man from the US state of Nevada, who had no known immune disorders, had PCR-confirmed SARS-CoV-2 infection in April, 2020

This case report adds to rapidly growing evidence of COVID-19 reinfection, in which viral genomic sequences were used to confirm infections by distinct isolates of SARS-CoV-2.

So, should we listen to Alan Klein above or maybe, maybe pay a bit more attention to "The Lancet" as I can't find any peer reviewed data there from Alan Klein. Those using critical thinking can now make up their own minds.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 10, 2020, 01:41:57 pm
So who exactly is "Socialist OEC"?

I thin Alan means AOC...
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 10, 2020, 01:50:25 pm
LOL.  Seriously, I am sitting here with a smile on my face.  You guys are suppose to be joyous, but Trump really did break you.  He broke you down to nothing, and now you are pissed conservatives are still going to be conservatives after this (lets face it) amazing election for my side. 

I really think deep down you know you guys know your era is ending, and that is why you are so upset. 

BTW, Obama did target him.

Trump continues to live rent free in the digitaldogs head.  I think Trump might be building a golf course and a hotel in there.

It really is amazing though, seeing this outpouring of Trump hate given that it appears their guy will actually win.  I was expecting them to wax poetic about the wonderful things in Biden's Covid plan that will make American such a better (have you read his plan?  Its really something!) place. Or his other plans to "build back better" 
 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 10, 2020, 01:55:12 pm
Frivolous, hilarious  D'Souza himself actually pleaded guilty in federal court to one felony charge of using a "straw donor" to make an illegal campaign contribution to a 2012 United States Senate.

What ever happened to old D'Souza anyway? He was a Fox News darling there for awhile, along with Sebastian Gorka. I guess they just faded off into irrelevance.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 10, 2020, 01:58:19 pm
Trump continues to live rent free in the digitaldogs head.  I think Trump might be building a golf course and a hotel in there.

Well, we got Joe ragging on Obama today, and last week Alan was bitching and moaning about Hilary stealing the White House china 20 years ago.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 10, 2020, 02:01:43 pm
Well, we got Joe ragging on Obama today, and last week Alan was bitching and moaning about Hilary stealing the China 20 years ago.

Its not quite as non stop as the Trump bashing but you have a point.  But hey lets go positive!  Don't you just love Joe Biden! :)
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JoeKitchen on November 10, 2020, 02:01:53 pm
What ever happened to old D'Souza anyway? He was a Fox News darling there for awhile, along with Sebastian Gorka. I guess they just faded off into irrelevance.

He is currently producing and directing a feature film.  Not a documentary or a work of non-fiction, but an actual piece of entertainment.  (I am sure you will find a joke here somehow.) 

I think this another area the country is going to see a big change in, Hollywood loosing part of it's dominance in the culture.  Along with D'Souza, The Daily Wire is getting into movie production, along with a couple of other conservative groups.  Four years ago this would have been impossible since Hollywood owned the distribution chains, but now distribution is extremely open. 

I see good things in the future for conservatism when it comes to culture. 


PS: Not only that, but conservatives are fighting back from being censored.  Initially Amazon refused to have "What Killed Michael Brown," by Shelby Steele, run on their platform.  Then there was backlash from the Wall Street Journal and Amazon reversed course.  Similar things happened with "Uncle Tom," by Larry Elder.  Both great documentaries. 

Steele actually brought up the issue of public housing and bad it is for the black community.  He talked about the infamous Pruitt–Igoe public housing in St Louis.  Prior to the project, the historically black neighborhood was filled with single family homes with a higher rate of ownership then neighboring white communities with only a slightly lower value.  The government, in building the project, destroyed all the equity in the neighborhood and set the entire community back. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 10, 2020, 02:04:11 pm
What ever happened to old D'Souza anyway? He was a Fox News darling there for awhile, along with Sebastian Gorka. I guess they just faded off into irrelevance.

He still has spots on Fox.  He was on last night I think.  I  turned them off after Tucker but I think I saw a banner that said he was going to be on.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 10, 2020, 02:05:02 pm
Its not quite as non stop as the Trump bashing but you have a point.  But hey lets go positive!  Don't you just love Joe Biden! :)

I voted against Trump, so I am not all that vested in Biden. I hope good things will happen under his watch. If they don't, we'll just have to find someone better next time around.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 10, 2020, 02:08:07 pm
I see good things in the future for conservatism when it comes to culture.

What did you have in mind?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 10, 2020, 02:08:17 pm
Like Obama spying on reporters he did not like and having them arrested? 

Like Obama having the IRS target conservative groups. 

Like Obama having his justice department put Dinesh D'souza in jail over some frivolous campaign contribution charge that pretty much everyone does not even have charges brought against them for just because Dinesh made a documentary critical of Obama.  Talk about hating on journalists. 

Like Obama and Biden going after Flynn with the Logan Act, something no one has even been prosecuted on.  FYI, John Kerry has been openly breaking the Logan Act over the last 4 years. 

Yes, I do have actual tangible examples.

"Like Obama spying on reporters he did not like and having them arrested?"

Reporter James Rosen was investigated—as part of a national security investigation—for his contacts with Stephen Jin-Woo Kim. Stephen Jin-Woo Kim is a former State Department contractor who pleaded guilty to a felony count of disclosing classified information to Fox News reporter James Rosen. Prosecutors charged that Kim's actions indirectly alerted North Korea to what U.S. intelligence officials "knew or did not know about its military capabilities and preparedness."

The claim that James Rosen was spied on because Obama didn't like him is fake news, not fact. When was James Rosen arrested? He wasn't... more fake news.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Jin-Woo_Kim (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Jin-Woo_Kim)

"Like Obama having the IRS target conservative groups."

This is a persistent right-wing myth. The IRS was looking into the misuse of 501(c)(4) tax exempt charitable status as a front for political activity. The investigation by the IRS did NOT "target conservative groups" it targeted political groups both progressive and conservative. It was just the conservative groups that played victim and repeated the false claim over and over ad nauseam that they were the sole victims of a travesty.

"The Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration reviewed a decade of IRS handling of political organizations. It found that scores of liberal groups were subject to the same heavy scrutiny that conservative groups faced. This merely certified what had been perfectly clear all along. Within months of the “targeting scandal” breaking, evidence was already available to show that the IRS was giving political activists on the left the same treatment as those on the right. (The New York Times reported on this as early as June 2013.) Subsequent hearings turned up no evidence Obama had ordered the IRS to target conservatives because the IRS did not in fact target conservatives."

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/10/debunked-irs-scandal-shows-theres-no-sane-wing-of-the-gop (https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/10/debunked-irs-scandal-shows-theres-no-sane-wing-of-the-gop.html)

"Like Obama having his justice department put Dinesh D'souza in jail over some frivolous campaign contribution charge that pretty much everyone does"

In 2014, D'Souza pleaded guilty in federal court to one felony charge of using a "straw donor" to make an illegal campaign contribution to a 2012 United States Senate campaign. He was sentenced to eight months in a halfway house near his home in San Diego, five years' probation, and a $30,000 fine. In 2018, D'Souza was issued a pardon by President Donald Trump.

Using a straw man to funnel political contributions is NOT "some frivolous campaign contribution" or something "that pretty much everyone does". That's more fake news. It's not something "that pretty much everyone does" because it's a federal crime that does get prosecuted.

Avoiding Straw Donor Issues
By Brendan Parets on September 11, 2020

"While federal campaign finance enforcement priorities can and do shift, prosecutions of “conduit contributions” or “straw donors” have remained steady over the years.  Unlike most of federal campaign finance law, the law around straw donors is stable and well developed, and straw donor prosecutions tend to be straightforward."

https://www.insidepoliticallaw.com/2020/09/11/avoiding-straw-donor-issues/ (https://www.insidepoliticallaw.com/2020/09/11/avoiding-straw-donor-issues/)

"Like Obama and Biden going after Flynn with the Logan Act, something no one has even been prosecuted on."

It was the Trump DOJ that prosecuted Flynn when he pled guilty to lying to the FBI, something that many people have been prosecuted for over many decades.

"Yes, I do have actual tangible examples."

Really?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 10, 2020, 02:11:40 pm
The current plan is to use normal vaccine distribution channels. It is unlikely the military will be used. So no Humvees in front of CVS.

Thats sad, I like Humvees...
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 10, 2020, 02:23:11 pm
Trump continues to live rent free in the digitaldogs head.  I think Trump might be building a golf course and a hotel in there.

It really is amazing though, seeing this outpouring of Trump hate given that it appears their guy will actually win.  I was expecting them to wax poetic about the wonderful things in Biden's Covid plan that will make American such a better (have you read his plan?  Its really something!) place. Or his other plans to "build back better"

Trump who?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 10, 2020, 02:24:28 pm
He still has spots on Fox.  He was on last night I think.  I  turned them off after Tucker but I think I saw a banner that said he was going to be on.

And I thought you said you got your news reading. Gotcha.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 10, 2020, 02:33:02 pm
Trump lives rent free in your head.

He continues to live rent free in your head.....

Trump continues to live rent free in the digitaldogs head.

Is this just repetitious use of an idiom or are you attempting hypnosis?

As for me, I've been charging Trump rent. He hasn't paid yet; but he has a reputation for not paying his bills.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Alan Klein on November 10, 2020, 02:37:30 pm
Trump continues to live rent free in the digitaldogs head.  I think Trump might be building a golf course and a hotel in there.

It really is amazing though, seeing this outpouring of Trump hate given that it appears their guy will actually win.  I was expecting them to wax poetic about the wonderful things in Biden's Covid plan that will make American such a better (have you read his plan?  Its really something!) place. Or his other plans to "build back better" 
 
I'm willing to give Biden a chance. After all he will be our president and his success is our success.  Hopefully his policies won't be too weird.  A Republican senate will push more compromise and less unilaterally legislation.  It will stop packing the court and making states out of Washington DC and Puerto Rico, something I think Biden really doesn't want to do anyway. 

One of the problems with the anti-Trump craziness is that it hurt America.  We had an opportunity to develop better relations with Russia at a time when we could use them as a counterweight to China, and blew it because of the political charges of Russian collusion.  It forced Trump's hand to be tougher than he should have been with them to show that there wasn't collusion.  Meanwhile, Russia is now having military exercises with China. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: William Walker on November 10, 2020, 02:48:48 pm
I'm willing to give Biden a chance. After all he will be our president and his success is our success.  Hopefully his policies won't be too weird.

Alan, I am sure you expressing that sentiment is why Mrs Klein loves you.... ;)

On a serious note, I certainly hope there are a lot more folks out there with your attitude.

Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Alan Klein on November 10, 2020, 02:51:46 pm
Alan, I am sure you expressing that sentiment is why Mrs Klein loves you.... ;)

On a serious note, I certainly hope there are a lot more folks out there with your attitude.


Oh sure.  There's no BDS only TDS. Most republicans are just normal folks.  :)
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 10, 2020, 03:11:51 pm
Oh sure.  There's no BDS only TDS. Most republicans are just normal folks.  :)

Well, with the slight exception of Biden being senile and also an international criminal mastermind of unheard of proportion—seeing that as a Vice-President with no independent political power, he was able to corral the bipartisan support of the entire U.S. Government, the entire EU western alliance, and global financial institutions into supporting a corrupt and nefarious plan to protect his son from a nonexistent prosecution. Except for that... yeah.

* Oh... and his plan to turn the U.S. into a gray dreary socialist commie hellhole. Almost forgot that.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 10, 2020, 03:18:14 pm
And I thought you said you got your news reading. Gotcha.

Tucker is opinion and not news, and I already stated I watch Tucker.  Nice try though.


...
No I don't watch much cable or network news  I prefer to read, But I do like to watch Martha and Tucker if I have time.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 10, 2020, 03:19:50 pm
Is this just repetitious use of an idiom or are you attempting hypnosis?

As for me, I've been charging Trump rent. He hasn't paid yet; but he has a reputation for not paying his bills.

It just fits so well, why change. 

As for you.  I'm not sure Trump would find the space suitable.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Alan Klein on November 10, 2020, 03:28:54 pm
Well, with the slight exception of Biden being senile and also an international criminal mastermind of unheard of proportion—seeing that as a Vice-President with no independent political power, he was able to corral the bipartisan support of the entire U.S. Government, the entire EU western alliance, and global financial institutions into supporting a corrupt and nefarious plan to protect his son from a nonexistent prosecution. Except for that... yeah.

* Oh... and his plan to turn the U.S. into a gray dreary socialist commie hellhole. Almost forgot that.
You're confusing me with the deplorables. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 10, 2020, 03:30:08 pm
It just fits so well, why change. 

As for you.  I'm not sure Trump would find the space suitable.

Not enough gold paint, no fake Time Man of the Year covers or fake masterpiece paintings (that are claimed to be the originals) hanging on the wall, too many facts and too few obvious lies and fantasies; you might be right. But really, I think he just enjoys skipping out on payments due.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 10, 2020, 03:31:20 pm
You're confusing me with the deplorables.

Nah... I'm just remembering the baseless assertions of you and others.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 10, 2020, 03:34:31 pm
Is Pompeo looking to get into real estate?

Pompeo promises ‘smooth transition to second Trump administration’ as world leaders congratulate Biden

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/10/pompeo-smooth-transition-second-trump-administration-435754
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Alan Klein on November 10, 2020, 03:36:56 pm
Nah... I'm just remembering the baseless assertions of you and others.
Nothing baseless about what I said.  Just won't matter anymore since he'll be president and the FBI and DOJ reports to him unlike while Trump was president when they reported to the media. :) 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 10, 2020, 03:38:12 pm
Not enough gold paint, no fake Time Man of the Year covers or fake masterpiece paintings (that are claimed to be the originals) hanging on the wall, too many facts and too few obvious lies and fantasies; you might be right. But really, I think he just enjoys skipping out on payments due.

Maybe. Or some might say it could be the vacuous nature of some liberal viewpoints that make the space uninhabitable.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 10, 2020, 03:46:04 pm
In COVID related news, it looks like the school system in the next county over is having to go virtual. Too many teachers have tested positive or are in quarantine to conduct on site classes. It is unlikely the school district has enough computers and hotspots to loan out to the underprivileged, so I guess they won't be able to keep up. Hopefully, it will be only two weeks or so when enough teachers exit quarantine.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 10, 2020, 03:48:53 pm
Nothing baseless about what I said.  Just won't matter anymore since he'll be president and the FBI and DOJ reports to him unlike while Trump was president when they reported to the media. :)

Well, that would be Trump's fault. He hired them, he can fire them. Only the best people.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 10, 2020, 03:50:26 pm
In COVID related news, it looks like the school system in the next county over is having to go virtual. Too many teachers have tested positive or are in quarantine to conduct on site classes. It is unlikely the school district has enough computers and hotspots to loan out to the underprivileged, so I guess they won't be able to keep up.

What state?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 10, 2020, 03:58:36 pm
Maybe. Or some might say it could be the vacuous nature of some liberal viewpoints that make the space uninhabitable.

Whatever makes you feel most comfortable.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Frans Waterlander on November 10, 2020, 03:58:47 pm
That's what Obama told you right? Rubbish. In spades. You're really not to be taken seriously and by and large, are not. Adiós.
You were one of the few people congratulating Jeremy Roussak with his decision to curtail political talk on the LuLa forum, yet you are one of the most active on this forum with your usual personal attacks and bile. Way to go, Andrew!
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 10, 2020, 04:15:42 pm
You were one of the few people congratulating Jeremy Roussak with his decision to curtail political talk on the LuLa forum, yet you are one of the most active on this forum with your usual personal attacks and bile. Way to go, Andrew!
"It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it". -Joseph Joube
We can move away from political talk Frans; how are you getting along showing us some of your snapshots? Or the sensor heat that causes so much data loss? Display Flicker still causing headaches, or the Adobe Elements Print bug or database bug?
Way to go, Frans!
I'd keep congratulating Jeremy Roussak even more if ALL such political discussions disappeared. Then no, you'd not hear from me about politics but I'd still be asking you the questions I asked just now, above.  :o
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: James Clark on November 10, 2020, 04:17:33 pm
Anyone have any thoughts on why Trump would be removing DoD leadership right after he lost an election and moves out in 10 weeks?  Or why Pompeo is talking about a "smooth transition to a second Trump administration?"  Or why Georgia's very Trumpy senators are publicly calling for the (Republican) Sec State to resign because he won't go along with the "election fraud" nonsense?

Are we allowed to be concerned yet?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Frans Waterlander on November 10, 2020, 04:20:02 pm
"It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it". -Joseph Joube
We can move away from political talk Frans; how are you getting along showing us some of your snapshots? Or the sensor heat that causes so much data loss? Display Flicker still causing headaches, or the Adobe Elements Print bug or database bug?
Way to go, Frans!
I'd keep congratulating Jeremy Roussak even more if ALL such political discussions disappeared. Then no, you'd not hear from me about politics but I'd still be asking you the questions I asked just now, above.  :o
Yep, no change, still in attack mode.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 10, 2020, 04:24:32 pm
Yep, no change, still in attack mode.

Anything to add to the discussion or are you just going to bicker with Andrew?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Frans Waterlander on November 10, 2020, 04:26:13 pm
Anything to add to the discussion or are you just going to bicker with Andrew?
Is there anything else you can do with him? Didn't know.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 10, 2020, 04:28:45 pm
Yep, no change, still in attack mode.
Yup, still off topic, no pic's to show.
Didn't know.
We agree about that!
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 10, 2020, 04:31:23 pm
people voted for Trump at  47 1/2% which is a larger percent than 4 years ago at 46%

Your ability to ignore your past statements and reverse course on a dime is something else. You're in a league of your own! Now you want to look at the national popular vote for comparative analysis of election results in different years?

When I made a post, in the previous political thread, that compared the national popular vote to electoral votes in 2008, 2012, and 2016; you vociferously objected to comparing or even considering the national popular vote. To quote, you said...

"You conveniently left out the most important statistic. Donald Trump 58%  Hillary Clinton 42% - electoral votes for president 2016." ... "That's deceptive. You never listed the electoral percentage totals. This is the accurate way it should have been shown: Final Election Day Result: Clinton 43% / 232 Electoral Votes — Trump 57% / 306 Electoral Votes". (Note... don't blame me for the inconsistency of the percentages from one statement to another, I'm just quoting you.)

So... to use your previous "logic", assuming the present lead in the various States remains as it is currently, Biden will net 306 electoral votes to Trump's 232. In other words, following your previously insistent "accurate way"—people voted for Trump in 2020 at 43% which is a much lower percentage than 4 years ago at 57%.

Using your previous logic and insistence that the "accurate way" to look at election results was to compare electoral vote, Trump lost 14% of his previous vote total; a very large drop.

You said it was Biden that constantly changed his positions. Perhaps it was just the way that you changed your way of looking at them.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Frans Waterlander on November 10, 2020, 04:32:58 pm
Yup, still off topic, no pic's to show. We agree about that!
I don't think you want me to get on the topic of politics since you couldn't handle that.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 10, 2020, 04:40:58 pm
I don't think you want me to get on the topic of politics since you couldn't handle that.

Oh my! What confidence and bravado! That attitude isn't helping Trump right now, but let's see how you fare.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Frans Waterlander on November 10, 2020, 04:43:25 pm
Oh my! What confidence and bravado! That attitude isn't helping Trump right now, but let's see how you fare.
You couldn't handle it; don't be a masochist!
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 10, 2020, 04:49:36 pm
You couldn't handle it; don't be a masochist!

What I'm having a problem handling right now is your posts...bye...bye.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 10, 2020, 04:50:17 pm
Your ability to ignore your past statements and reverse course on a dime is something else. You're in a league of your own! Now you want to look at the national popular vote for comparative analysis of election results in different years?

When I made a post, in the previous political thread, that compared the national popular vote to electoral votes in 2008, 2012, and 2016; you vociferously objected to comparing or even considering the national popular vote. To quote, you said...

"You conveniently left out the most important statistic. Donald Trump 58%  Hillary Clinton 42% - electoral votes for president 2016." ... "That's deceptive. You never listed the electoral percentage totals. This is the accurate way it should have been shown: Final Election Day Result: Clinton 43% / 232 Electoral Votes — Trump 57% / 306 Electoral Votes". (Note... don't blame me for the inconsistency of the percentages from one statement to another, I'm just quoting you.)

So... to use your previous "logic", assuming the present lead in the various States remains as it is currently, Biden will net 306 electoral votes to Trump's 232. In other words, following your previously insistent "accurate way"—people voted for Trump in 2020 at 43% which is a much lower percentage than 4 years ago at 57%.

Using your previous logic and insistence that the "accurate way" to look at election results was to compare electoral vote, Trump lost 14% of his previous vote total; a very large drop.

You said it was Biden that constantly changed his positions. Perhaps it was just the way that you changed your way of looking at them.

Come on Alan...let's hear what you have to say about your quick turn about face.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 10, 2020, 04:56:48 pm
I don't think you want me to get on the topic of politics since you couldn't handle that.
Speaking of what you can’t handle; the difference between us is I can make and take pictures, and get paid to do either. At the same time I can discuss politics on this forum. Seems you’re not able to do either.
Are there any of your photographs to be found in your self published book of fiction Frans?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 10, 2020, 05:01:50 pm
Anyone have any thoughts on why Trump would be removing DoD leadership right after he lost an election and moves out in 10 weeks?  Or why Pompeo is talking about a "smooth transition to a second Trump administration?"  Or why Georgia's very Trumpy senators are publicly calling for the (Republican) Sec State to resign because he won't go along with the "election fraud" nonsense?

Are we allowed to be concerned yet?

Sure. I became concerned when Barr issued an unprecedented memo to Department of Justice attorneys to begin ballot fraud investigations before the count was finished and certified and the Director of the Election Crimes Branch of the Department of Justice resigned his position immediately afterward. He has been an attorney for the Public Integrity Section, Criminal Division of the DOJ for 28-years and the Director of Election Crimes Branch for the past 10-years.

https://www.axios.com/barr-voter-fraud-investigation-doj-official-resigns (https://www.axios.com/barr-voter-fraud-investigation-doj-official-resigns-402d05f4-f913-48bc-a0fa-503159216543.html)

https://www.npr.org/2020/11/10/head-of-doj-s-election-crimes-unit-steps-down-after-barr-oks-election-inquiries (https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-2020-election-results/2020/11/10/933395215/head-of-doj-s-election-crimes-unit-steps-down-after-barr-oks-election-inquiries)
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 10, 2020, 05:04:39 pm
You couldn't handle it; don't be a masochist!

So, you're into that kind of thing. Well, live and let live.

Got anything else?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: James Clark on November 10, 2020, 05:13:08 pm
Sure. I became concerned when Barr issued an unprecedented memo to Department of Justice attorneys to begin ballot fraud investigations before the count was finished and certified and the Director of the Election Crimes Branch of the Department of Justice resigned his position immediately afterward. He has been an attorney for the Public Integrity Section, Criminal Division of the DOJ for 28-years and the director of Election Crimes Branch for the past 10-years.

https://www.axios.com/barr-voter-fraud-investigation-doj-official-resigns (https://www.axios.com/barr-voter-fraud-investigation-doj-official-resigns-402d05f4-f913-48bc-a0fa-503159216543.html)

https://www.npr.org/2020/11/10/head-of-doj-s-election-crimes-unit-steps-down-after-barr-oks-election-inquiries (https://www.npr.org/sections/live-updates-2020-election-results/2020/11/10/933395215/head-of-doj-s-election-crimes-unit-steps-down-after-barr-oks-election-inquiries)

Oh, I'm not worried about THAT.  I've been assured that, despite elections being among the very most "state level" functions there are, there's no authoritarianism at work here.  In the same vein, it makes perfect sense that the historically nonpartisan Bill Barr DoJ should publicly step in to take over for "biased" state level officials (like the aforementioned GA SecState (R) )
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 10, 2020, 05:18:35 pm
You did it again.  You doubled down on implying Trump voters of all sorts of terrible things that aren't true.  Maybe we should be drawn and quartered as the Socialist OEC wants to do.  I think she would send us all away to a gulag.  Or worse. This is what is scary about the left. They could justify eliminating those who think differently then them "for the better good". 
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/09/aoc-cancel-worked-for-trump-435293

Am I asking you a question that you decided not to answer.

If it means that you support these aspects of Trump that I called Trumpism (lies, sexism,...), then yes you are indeed a terrible person. Because every single of the things I wrote about Trump is true beyond doubt.

Your call.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: John Camp on November 10, 2020, 06:26:10 pm
Anyone have any thoughts on why Trump would be removing DoD leadership right after he lost an election and moves out in 10 weeks?  Or why Pompeo is talking about a "smooth transition to a second Trump administration?"  Or why Georgia's very Trumpy senators are publicly calling for the (Republican) Sec State to resign because he won't go along with the "election fraud" nonsense?

Are we allowed to be concerned yet?

I'm confident that Biden will be inaugurated on Jan. 20, if there IS a Jan. 20. You have to remember that we're dealing with a current president who is, and has been for some time, mentally ill. A number of prominent Republicans are still sucking up to him because they're attracted by his Trump's goofy base, but that will go away. What I'm really worried about is conflicts possibly generated by Trump's orders that nobody wants to follow. What if he should order a military attack on Iran or China? What would the military do, especially if Biden and the Congress objected to it? Could they slow walk it for ten weeks? Don't know. I really think Biden will be President on Jan. 20, but a lot of weird shit could happen between now and then.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JoeKitchen on November 10, 2020, 06:36:55 pm
Am I asking you a question that you decided not to answer.

If it means that you support these aspects of Trump that I called Trumpism (lies, sexism,...), then yes you are indeed a terrible person. Because every single of the things I wrote about Trump is true beyond doubt.

Your call.

Cheers,
Bernard

LOL  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

This makes me laugh at you so hard.  The result of this election is, "we dont like Trump's personality but love his policies."  Have fun over the next four years completely alienating the public. 

God I have nevered enjoyed an election result so much. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 10, 2020, 06:42:03 pm
I'm confident that Biden will be inaugurated on Jan. 20, if there IS a Jan. 20. You have to remember that we're dealing with a current president who is, and has been for some time, mentally ill. A number of prominent Republicans are still sucking up to him because they're attracted by his Trump's goofy base, but that will go away. What I'm really worried about is conflicts possibly generated by Trump's orders that nobody wants to follow. What if he should order a military attack on Iran or China? What would the military do, especially if Biden and the Congress objected to it? Could they slow walk it for ten weeks? Don't know. I really think Biden will be President on Jan. 20, but a lot of weird shit could happen between now and then.

It's a near certainty that Trump will accelerate the sowing of as much division between citizens as possible and work even harder to undermine confidence in American democracy through false assertions and encouraging distrust in the necessary institutions upon which democracy relies. Authoritarian governments around the world that want to undermine the ideals of democracy and the United States will take pleasure in that.

It will certainly be a stress test for democracy in the United States, but I agree with you. I think the country can handle the obvious and petty machinations of a sociopathic narcissist like Trump and get thru this battered but intact.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 10, 2020, 06:54:43 pm
I don't think you want me to get on the topic of politics since you couldn't handle that.

I hate to be the one to point out the obvious, but the topic of this thread is politics. Did you wander in by mistake? Do you need some assistance figuring out where you are?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 10, 2020, 07:02:12 pm
The result of this election is, "we dont like Trump's personality but love his policies."

The result of this election is that a majority of Americans prefer Joe Biden as their President and have rejected Donald Trump's show. He's been canceled due to bad ratings.

God I have nevered enjoyed an election result so much.

I certainly hope the people of this country can deliver many more that are similar to it for you to enjoy in the years to come.

Have fun over the next four years completely alienating the public. 

You too. That won't be as easy with Trump out of office; although he could retain the title of Commader-in-Tweets as a consolation prize.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: kers on November 10, 2020, 07:28:03 pm
APnews has to spend more and more pages factchecking the unelected president.
https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-ap-fact-check-donald-trump-business-virus-outbreak-108077c4b716db604ee49b42c6d64af0

Mr T and his monthly refreshed group of well chosen yaeh-sayers are really unbelievable! ( but true!)
Pompeo says ‘there will be a smooth transition to a second Trump administration’
( yes, if he wins in 2024, thanks to Biden)


 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 10, 2020, 07:31:29 pm
It is exactly one week after the US election and both the infections (over 133,000) and deaths (over 1,300) are steadily rising. The increase in the Covid cases correlates clearly with increased human contacts during mass gatherings around the election date (pre-election rallies, voting attendance, celebrations and protests). The spread of the virus with the added new virus carriers could get much worse this coming week.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 10, 2020, 07:56:37 pm
It is exactly one week after the US election and both the infections (over 133,000) and deaths (over 1,300) are steadily rising. The increase in the Covid cases correlates clearly with increased human contacts during mass gatherings around the election date (pre-election rallies, voting attendance, celebrations and protests). The spread of the virus with the added new virus carriers could get much worse this coming week.

Don’t worry. President Elect Joe aBiden has a great plan. /s
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 10, 2020, 07:57:45 pm
It is exactly one week after the US election and both the infections (over 133,000) and deaths (over 1,300) are steadily rising. The increase in the Covid cases correlates clearly with increased human contacts during mass gatherings around the election date (pre-election rallies, voting attendance, celebrations and protests). The spread of the virus with the added new virus carriers could get much worse this coming week.

And yet not a thing from the president. What an ass.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 10, 2020, 07:59:38 pm
Don’t worry. President Elect Joe aBiden has a great plan. /s

By the time Biden gets the authority, another 50,000 or more will die all the while Chetos plays more rounds of golf. What a guy.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: kers on November 10, 2020, 08:02:52 pm
Don’t worry. President Elect Joe aBiden has a great plan. /s
To have a plan is already something new.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 10, 2020, 08:08:48 pm
USPS employee who claimed mail-in ballot tampering in PA recants allegations

A United States Postal Service worker who made claims of mail-in ballot tampering in Pennsylvania — which Senator Lindsey Graham called for investigation into — recanted his allegations Monday.

The USPS employee, identified as Richard Hopkins, signed a sworn affidavit alleging ballot tampering and fraud. In the affidavit, the postal worker alleged that postal supervisory officials hatched a plan to backdate ballots mailed after the election.

The Oversight Committee said Hopkins was interviewed by investigators Friday and Monday recanted the allegations without saying why he signed a false affidavit. There is no word if Hopkins will face perjury charges.

https://www.wbtw.com/usps-employee-who-claimed-mail-in-ballot-tampering-in-pa-recants-allegations (https://www.wbtw.com/news/elections/usps-employee-who-claimed-mail-in-ballot-tampering-in-pa-recants-allegations/)

“Here are the facts: Richard Hopkins is a USPS employee in Erie, Pa. He signed a sworn affidavit with allegations of ballot tampering/fraud and went public through Project Veritas. USPS IG began investigating last week,” the committee explained. “USPS IG investigators informed Committee staff today that they interviewed Hopkins on Friday, but that Hopkins recanted his allegations yesterday and did not explain why he signed a false affidavit.”

https://twitter.com/OversightDems/whistleblower completely RECANTED his allegations (https://twitter.com/OversightDems/status/1326289047933816836)

"He signed a sworn affidavit with allegations of ballot tampering/fraud and went public through Project Veritas." No surprise that Project Veritas was involved in this fraud.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: James Clark on November 10, 2020, 08:09:26 pm
To have a plan is already something new.

Seriously.  Even just encouraging mask wearing would be an immediate improvement.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: James Clark on November 10, 2020, 08:11:46 pm


https://twitter.com/OversightDems/whistleblower completely RECANTED his allegations (https://twitter.com/OversightDems/status/1326289047933816836)

"He signed a sworn affidavit with allegations of ballot tampering/fraud and went public through Project Veritas." No surprise that Project Veritas was involved in this fraud.

Maybe they can get Jacob Wohl to corroborate the next Serious Allegation.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: James Clark on November 10, 2020, 08:16:59 pm
I'm confident that Biden will be inaugurated on Jan. 20, if there IS a Jan. 20. You have to remember that we're dealing with a current president who is, and has been for some time, mentally ill. A number of prominent Republicans are still sucking up to him because they're attracted by his Trump's goofy base, but that will go away.

This is the part that worries me.  The more they dig in, the harder it is to untie it all, and even when they do, the damage may be done.   There's a larger conversation around this, but for the past x years, as the Republicans get crazier and crazier, they keep moving closer and closer not just to disagreeing with policy, but denying that democrats ("liberals") have the right to govern even when they win elections.  Now, despite a clear and convincing win, they're arguing not just that Trump has a right to litigate fraud (he does), but that the *outcome of the election is illegitimate because of fraud.*  Which they're literally just making up.  And some not insignificant portion of Trump voters believe that.  It's tragic.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 10, 2020, 08:23:57 pm
Don’t worry. President Elect Joe aBiden has a great plan. /s

Correct! He is not a president yet, but already he has a better plan than Trump.
How do you feel listening to Trump now for 2 weeks than he has rounded the virus? Could he be possibly lying? Or is it an early onset of dementia?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 10, 2020, 08:34:44 pm
To have a plan is already something new.

The plan is available to read here...  https://buildbackbetter.com/priorities/covid-19/ (https://buildbackbetter.com/priorities/covid-19/)

And reported on here...  https://www.livescience.com/biden-harris-coronavirus-plans (https://www.livescience.com/biden-harris-coronavirus-plans.html)

I haven't read any criticism of anything specific in the plan here, just generic sneering. It seems to follow both science and common sense.

There really isn't anything new regarding the general public health approach to limiting the spread of infectious disease that hasn't been known and practiced for decades; whether it's Tuberculosis, Syphilis, Ebola, or Covid-19. To be effective in limiting spread requires rapid local testing, isolation of those exposed or infected, and rapid contact tracing. It also requires effective leadership in instructing the public how to avoid becoming infected or spreading the disease to others; whether that's condoms for STDs or masks and social distancing for airborne viruses.

If you want to contain the spread of a disease locally and avoid widespread restrictions, that's been the approach. The longer testing takes; the longer the disease spreads and the more difficult contact tracing becomes. The more difficult and time consuming testing and tracing are the faster it spirals beyond any local control of isolating the infected and exposed. It's common sense and common public health practice.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: James Clark on November 10, 2020, 08:39:57 pm
Don’t worry. President Elect Joe aBiden has a great plan. /s

He's going to do COVID very big.  It's going to be a great plan, and we can see it in 2 weeks! 

That used to be good enough for you.. what changed?  ;)
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 10, 2020, 08:40:47 pm
And some not insignificant portion of Trump voters believe that.  It's tragic.

And potentially dangerous as the disease of lies and fraudulent accusations spreads injuring democracy, if not people, in the process.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 10, 2020, 08:42:25 pm
Seriously.  Even just encouraging mask wearing would be an immediate improvement.
And, even Trump's CDC has updated its recommendations today in that respect.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/10/world/covid-cdc-guidelines-masks.html
“Experimental and epidemiological data support community masking to reduce the spread” of the virus, the C.D.C. said in a document that details scientific evidence supporting mask use. “Individual benefit increases with increasing community mask use,”
More people he can fire.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 10, 2020, 08:44:43 pm
LOL  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

This makes me laugh at you so hard.  The result of this election is, "we dont like Trump's personality but love his policies."  Have fun over the next four years completely alienating the public. 

That's where you really need to clarify your position Joe.

You have never ever explained clearly why you support Trump besides what you see as favorable economic results and him being on the Republican lists.

Perhaps we could all benefit for you casting some light on exactly how you feel about Trumpism? What aspects you think are acceptable, what aspects aren't for you.

He has lost, that won't make a difference anymore. There is no more risk that an admission of issues could have a negative impact on an election.

Contrary to what you seem to think, I am not pro Biden (I am just anti-Trump for reasons I have explained at length), but I'll list the aspects I find unclear/un-appealing about him:
- He is too old to be a President
- He is not left winged enough for my taste
- He is reliable but boring compared to an Obama for instance who had a remarkle wit

Are you interested in sharing what you like/dislike about Trump?

Cheers,
Bernard

Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 10, 2020, 08:48:18 pm
Seriously.  Even just encouraging mask wearing would be an immediate improvement.

The Biden plan will also "Immediately restore the White House National Security Council Directorate for Global Health Security and Biodefense, originally established by the Obama-Biden administration." That National Security Council group was eliminated by Trump in yet another stable genius move. Trump doesn't need experts with experience when he thinks that his intuition is always right.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 10, 2020, 09:02:21 pm
To have a plan is already something new.

So have you read it?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 10, 2020, 09:09:40 pm
If you've read it, let's hear your critique.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 10, 2020, 09:12:15 pm
Seriously.  Even just encouraging mask wearing would be an immediate improvement.

33 States have a mask mandate.  Pretty much every business has a mask mandate.  Public indoor spaces have madk mandates.  Transportation has mask mandates. Saying you need to wear a mask will continue to fall deaf on the ears who don’t want to abide.

More statements or mandates that have no teeth will change nothing IMO.

I’m a mask guy, but if you look mask mandate states are not spared from increasing COVID cases.   Looks pretty similar In Europe. 

I’m my opinion a mask mandate changes very little if anything.  And for the most part that’s the biggest part of Biden’s plan. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 10, 2020, 09:14:51 pm
I’m my opinion a mask mandate changes very little if anything. And for the most part that’s the biggest part of Biden’s plan.

For anyone that has read the plan, that's clearly nonsense.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 10, 2020, 09:16:32 pm
If you've read it, let's hear your critique.

It’s far better if everyone actually read it themselves and actually saw the words as written.  What get a critique when you can read it,

The Biden Plan.   Feel free to donate.

https://joebiden.com/covid-plan/
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: James Clark on November 10, 2020, 09:17:05 pm
33 States have a mask mandate.  Pretty much every business has a mask mandate.  Public indoor spaces have madk mandates.  Transportation has mask mandates. Saying you need to wear a mask will continue to fall deaf on the ears who don’t want to abide.

More statements or mandates that have no teeth will change nothing IMO.

I’m a mask guy, but if you look mask mandate states are not spared from increasing COVID cases.   Looks pretty similar In Europe. 

I’m my opinion a mask mandate changes very little if anything.

I tend to agree with you here in general, but I don't think it's really arguable that having the president encourage, vs. discourage, mask use is a positive, right?   

And for the most part that’s the biggest part of Biden’s plan.

Not sure I agree here...
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 10, 2020, 09:17:38 pm
For anyone that has read the plan, that's clearly nonsense.

No, it’s not. Read the plan
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 10, 2020, 09:18:09 pm
33 States have a mask mandate.  Pretty much every business has a mask mandate.  Public indoor spaces have madk mandates.  Transportation has mask mandates. Saying you need to wear a mask will continue to fall deaf on the ears who don’t want to abide.

More statements or mandates that have no teeth will change nothing IMO.

I’m a mask guy, but if you look mask mandate states are not spared from increasing COVID cases.   Looks pretty similar In Europe. 

I’m my opinion a mask mandate changes very little if anything.  And for the most part that’s the biggest part of Biden’s plan.

Masks appear to have benefits in some situations, not in all.

The most efficient measure seems to be very regular usage of alcohol to keep hands clean.

If hands are not kept clean then masks have more value because their reduce the occasions when one may bring an infected hand to his/her face.

This is of course on top of keeping social proximity under control.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 10, 2020, 09:22:24 pm
I tend to agree with you here in general, but I don't think it's really arguable that having the president encourage, vs. discourage, mask use is a positive, right?   

Not sure I agree here...

I don’t think it makes a bit of difference what the a President says or does not say in regards to masks. Absent an enforcement mechanism, people will do what they want. 

Biden is offering very little to stop the spread, because he can’t.  Unless you want to consider lockdowns, and his wanting to hire 100k unemployed people to “fight  the virus”.

The rest is nothing really different to than the current state of affairs.

He still is at the mercy of the States.  They hold the power.  Biden can’t change that. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 10, 2020, 09:25:27 pm
It’s far better if everyone actually read it themselves and actually saw the words as written.  What get a critique when you can read it,

The Biden Plan.   Feel free to donate.

https://joebiden.com/covid-plan/

Time to catch-up and read what's current. Here it is again.

Biden Covid-19 Plan:  https://buildbackbetter.com/priorities/covid-19/ (https://buildbackbetter.com/priorities/covid-19/)

Recent Reporting:  https://www.livescience.com/biden-harris-coronavirus-plans (https://www.livescience.com/biden-harris-coronavirus-plans.html)

Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 10, 2020, 09:26:59 pm
The Biden plan will also "Immediately restore the White House National Security Council Directorate for Global Health Security and Biodefense, originally established by the Obama-Biden administration." That National Security Council group was eliminated by Trump in yet another stable genius move. Trump doesn't need experts with experience when he thinks that his intuition is always right.

It was moved, not eliminated. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 10, 2020, 09:28:17 pm
Maybe they can get Jacob Wohl to corroborate the next Serious Allegation.

Fake news.  They have the guy an tape saying he did not recant.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: James Clark on November 10, 2020, 09:29:40 pm
I don’t think it makes a bit of difference what the a President says or does not say in regards to masks. Absent an enforcement mechanism, people will do what they want. 

You're honestly telling me that if, from the start, Donald Trump had publicly worn a mask and told all his supporters to wear a mask because it was the right thing to do to protect our neighbors and our communities, that you believe there wouldn't have been any difference in how things progressed?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 10, 2020, 09:29:51 pm
I don’t think it makes a bit of difference what the a President says or does not say in regards to masks. Absent an enforcement mechanism, people will do what they want. 



Wrong. Strong leadership from all levels of government have a huge impact on people's habits. Look at how we've changed our views towards throwing garbage out of our cars, wearing seat belts, smoking... Without strong leadership, these habits would not have changed. Trump going against wearing masks has a huge negative impact on the people.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: James Clark on November 10, 2020, 09:31:26 pm
Fake news.  They have the guy an tape saying he did not recant.

That's not what the USPS IG is telling to Congress. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 10, 2020, 09:32:00 pm
You're honestly telling me that if, from the start, Donald Trump had publicly worn a mask and told all his supporters to wear a mask because it was the right thing to do to protect our neighbors and our communities, that you believe there wouldn't have been any difference in how things progressed?

Yeh...why do corporations pay big bucks to athletes to promote them drinking coke or using a certain brand of sneakers...because people are influenced big time by those in authority.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 10, 2020, 09:32:10 pm
You're honestly telling me that if, from the start, Donald Trump had publicly worn a mask and told all his supporters to wear a mask because it was the right thing to do to protect our neighbors and our communities, that you believe there wouldn't have been any difference in how things progressed?

Absolutely.  It’s not just Trump  supporters we are talking about here.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 10, 2020, 09:33:38 pm
Absolutely.  It’s not just Trump  supporters we are talking about here.

It doesn't matter what supporters. Do you think only the Bull's fans flock out to buy Air Jordon shoes.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 10, 2020, 09:34:46 pm
Absolutely.  It’s not just Trump  supporters we are talking about here.

Craig,

This is another one of your messages where it's really hard to think that you are answering in good faith.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 10, 2020, 09:34:50 pm
That's not what the USPS IG is telling to Congress.

Postal worker says he did not recant.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/11/10/post_office_whistleblower_to_washington_post_i_did_not_recant_my_statement_about_ballot_tampering.html#!
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Robert Roaldi on November 10, 2020, 09:35:26 pm
There have been a few more resignations at the Pentagon, https://thehill.com/policy/defense/525389-pentagon-sees-flurry-of-new-resignations (https://thehill.com/policy/defense/525389-pentagon-sees-flurry-of-new-resignations), so that's going well.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 10, 2020, 09:35:54 pm
Wrong. Strong leadership from all levels of government have a huge impact on people's habits. Look at how we've changed our views towards throwing garbage out of our cars, wearing seat belts, smoking... Without strong leadership, these habits would not have changed. Trump going against wearing masks has a huge negative impact on the people.

It depends on the people.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Robert Roaldi on November 10, 2020, 09:37:18 pm
Is Pompeo looking to get into real estate?

Pompeo promises ‘smooth transition to second Trump administration’ as world leaders congratulate Biden

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/10/pompeo-smooth-transition-second-trump-administration-435754

Maybe there's a contest on to see who is weirder, Pompano or Giuliani. My money's on Rudy, he's got a great head start.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 10, 2020, 09:38:14 pm
It doesn't matter what supporters. Do you think only the Bull's fans flock out to buy Air Jordon shoes.

It simply depends on how pliable people are.  If they are not pliable they won’t comply.  We have a lot of people here in both parties who are not pliable.

But again how many times are we going to continue to,plow this same ground?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 10, 2020, 09:42:39 pm
Yeh...why do corporations pay big bucks to athletes to promote them drinking coke or using a certain brand of sneakers...because people are influenced big time by those in authority.

So that’s why all of those spring breakers in the US decided to say the heck with masks and social distancing?  Because they are mostly likely liberal and they listened to Trump?  Really you want us to they gave a dang about what Trump did or did not say?

And since I’m a Trump supporter why did I decide I wanted to wear a mask?  In your world I would not be wearing one.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 10, 2020, 09:51:54 pm
The Biden plan will also "Immediately restore the White House National Security Council Directorate for Global Health Security and Biodefense, originally established by the Obama-Biden administration." That National Security Council group was eliminated by Trump in yet another stable genius move. Trump doesn't need experts with experience when he thinks that his intuition is always right.

It was moved, not eliminated.

Reading is fundamental. "That National Security Council group was eliminated"; I wrote that because that National Security Council group was indeed eliminated. There is no more National Security Council Directorate for Global Health Security and Biodefense.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/ (https://www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/)

"The National Security Council (NSC) is the President's principal forum for considering national security and foreign policy matters with his senior national security advisors and cabinet officials. The NSC is chaired by the President. Its regular attendees (both statutory and non-statutory) are the Vice President, the Secretary of State, the Secretary of the Treasury, the Secretary of Defense, and the Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs. The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff is the statutory military advisor to the Council, and the Director of National Intelligence is the intelligence advisor. The Chief of Staff to the President, Counsel to the President, and the Legal Advisor to the NSC are invited to attend any NSC meeting. The Attorney General and the Director of the Office of Management and Budget are invited to attend meetings pertaining to their responsibilities. The heads of other executive departments and agencies, as well as other senior officials, are invited to attend meetings of the NSC when appropriate."

In short, having a seat and a voice at The National Security Council matters, quite a lot in fact. Not having a seat at the National Security Council table matters; it amounts to a reduction in that security priority and reduces direct access to the President.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 10, 2020, 10:00:44 pm
It depends on the people.

Really. I never see anyone without seatbelts nor do I see many throwing garbage out of their cars. Strong leadership does amazing things...both good and bad as we've seen these past 4 years.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 10, 2020, 10:04:38 pm
Reading is fundamental. "That National Security Council group was eliminated"; I wrote that because that National Security Council group was indeed eliminated. There is no more National Security Council Directorate for Global Health Security and Biodefense.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/ (https://www.whitehouse.gov/nsc/)

"The National Security Council (NSC) is the President's principal forum for considering national security and foreign policy matters with his senior national security advisors and cabinet officials. The NSC is chaired by the President. Its regular attendees (both statutory and non-statutory) are the Vice President, the Secretary of State, the Secretary of the Treasury, the Secretary of Defense, and the Assistant to the President for National Security Affairs. The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff is the statutory military advisor to the Council, and the Director of National Intelligence is the intelligence advisor. The Chief of Staff to the President, Counsel to the President, and the Legal Advisor to the NSC are invited to attend any NSC meeting. The Attorney General and the Director of the Office of Management and Budget are invited to attend meetings pertaining to their responsibilities. The heads of other executive departments and agencies, as well as other senior officials, are invited to attend meetings of the NSC when appropriate."

In short, having a seat and a voice at The National Security Council matters, quite a lot in fact. Not having a seat at the National Security Council table matters; it amounts to a reduction in that security priority and reduces direct access to the President.

They pandemic response team was moved.  Period.  Sorry but that’s just the fact. 

One quote that describes the process:

One such move at the NSC was to create the counterproliferation and biodefense directorate, which was the result of consolidating three directorates into one, given the obvious overlap between arms control and nonproliferation, weapons of mass destruction terrorism, and global health and biodefense. It is this reorganization that critics have misconstrued or intentionally misrepresented. If anything, the combined directorate was stronger because related expertise could be commingled.


https://www.outsidethebeltway.com/nsc-pandemic-office-wasnt-shuttered-just-consolidated/
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 10, 2020, 10:05:46 pm
It simply depends on how pliable people are.  If they are not pliable they won’t comply.  We have a lot of people here in both parties who are not pliable.

But again how many times are we going to continue to,plow this same ground?

Yeh it's getting a little tiring hearing you defend Chetos right to the end. I'm sure you are smarter than that. I believe you know how effective strong leadership is with many cases throughout the years showing how influential leadership is.

I just think you've been backed into a corner and rather than agreeing that if Trump lead from the beginning with the accepted practices of wearing masks, keeping distances and washing hands, the USA would have faired much better than where they are today...you just repeat your nonsense with nothing that backs it up.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 10, 2020, 10:07:25 pm
So that’s why all of those spring breakers in the US decided to say the heck with masks and social distancing?  Because they are mostly likely liberal and they listened to Trump?  Really you want us to they gave a dang about what Trump did or did not say?

And since I’m a Trump supporter why did I decide I wanted to wear a mask?  In your world I would not be wearing one.

See my previous post. Obviously you have nothing concrete to say on this subject...so bye.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: LesPalenik on November 10, 2020, 10:07:43 pm
33 States have a mask mandate.  Pretty much every business has a mask mandate.  Public indoor spaces have madk mandates.  Transportation has mask mandates. Saying you need to wear a mask will continue to fall deaf on the ears who don’t want to abide.
More statements or mandates that have no teeth will change nothing IMO.
I’m a mask guy, but if you look mask mandate states are not spared from increasing COVID cases.   Looks pretty similar In Europe. 
I’m my opinion a mask mandate changes very little if anything.  And for the most part that’s the biggest part of Biden’s plan.

Many people are so dumb that they have to be told to wear a mask. Some even believe all the Trump lies.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 10, 2020, 10:14:54 pm
Fake news.  They have the guy an tape saying he did not recant.

Postal worker says he did not recant.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/11/10/post_office_whistleblower_to_washington_post_i_did_not_recant_my_statement_about_ballot_tampering.html#!

That's not what the USPS IG is telling to Congress. 

Did you look at Craig's link? He's got Larry @Larry64364562 telling Jack Posobiec (the alt-right conspiracy giant) with a video of some guy talking who could be the USPS whistleblower. And backed up by James O'Keefe of Project Veritas fame!  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Posobiec (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Posobiec)

What have you got? Just the Congressional House Oversight Committee and Investigators from The Inspector General's Office who interviewed the USPS worker and report that he recanted. I mean... who are you going to believe here?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 10, 2020, 10:15:30 pm
Yeh it's getting a little tiring hearing you defend Chetos right to the end. I'm sure you are smarter than that. I believe you know how effective strong leadership is with many cases throughout the years showing how influential leadership is.

I just think you've been backed into a corner and rather than agreeing that if Trump lead from the beginning with the accepted practices of wearing masks, keeping distances and washing hands, the USA would have faired much better than where they are today...you just repeat your nonsense with nothing that backs it up.

If you don’t like it, then run along.  No one has a gun to your head.



Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 10, 2020, 10:17:37 pm
If you don’t like it, then run along.  No one has a gun to your head.

Craig, I'll do one better. You are hidden.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 10, 2020, 10:19:44 pm
Did you look at Craig's link? He's got Larry @Larry64364562 telling Jack Posobiec (the alt-right conspiracy giant) with a video of some guy talking who could be the USPS whistleblower. And backed up by James O'Keefe of Project Veritas fame!  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Posobiec (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Posobiec)

What have you got? Just the Congressional House Oversight Committee and Investigators from The Inspector General's Office who interviewed the USPS worker and report that he recanted. I mean... who are you going to believe here?

Please show us the actual words of the IG.  Surely you have that, right?  If that’s not the guy and the video is false, prove it.  Trying to shoot the messenger is a pretty poor attempt , even for you.

A quote from one of the many articles...

Asked for confirmation, a spokesman for the U.S. Postal Service Office of Inspector General told the Washington Examiner the department does not comment on "ongoing matters."
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 10, 2020, 10:38:36 pm
From the United States House Committee on Oversight...  https://twitter.com/OversightDems/whistleblower completely RECANTED his allegations after being questioned by investigators, according to IG (https://twitter.com/OversightDems/status/1326289047933816836)

Time will tell who has better information from the IG Inspectors, Jack Posobiec and James O'Keefe or Congress. I hate to seem skeptical of the dynamic duo of Posobiec and O'Keefe, but one should consider the source of these things and well...
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 11, 2020, 12:11:25 am
They pandemic response team was moved.  Period.  Sorry but that’s just the fact. 

One quote that describes the process:

One such move at the NSC was to create the counterproliferation and biodefense directorate, which was the result of consolidating three directorates into one, given the obvious overlap between arms control and nonproliferation, weapons of mass destruction terrorism, and global health and biodefense. It is this reorganization that critics have misconstrued or intentionally misrepresented. If anything, the combined directorate was stronger because related expertise could be commingled.


https://www.outsidethebeltway.com/nsc-pandemic-office-wasnt-shuttered-just-consolidated/

No need to be sorry. You didn't decide to eliminate the senior administration level status of Global Health Security within the NSC. It was—and still is—a controversial decision which eliminated the position of a senior level director at NSC focused on tracking and coordinating response to pandemic threats and merging it from its own lane into a group which covers arms control and nonproliferation. It is diluted by losing its individual direction, senior level connection and voice, and having to compete for attention with other security concerns within a consolidated group sharing a lane.

Homeland Security Today - May 11, 2018

"The top White House official responsible for leading the U.S. response in the event of a deadly pandemic has left the administration, and the global health security team he oversaw has been disbanded under a reorganization by national security adviser John Bolton.

The abrupt departure of Rear Adm. Timothy Ziemer from the National Security Council means no senior administration official is now focused solely on global health security. Ziemer’s departure, along with the breakup of his team, comes at a time when many experts say the country is already underprepared for the increasing risks of a pandemic or bioterrorism attack.

Ziemer’s last day was Tuesday, the same day a new Ebola outbreak was declared in Congo. He is not being replaced.

Pandemic preparedness and global health security are issues that require government-wide responses, experts say, as well as the leadership of a high-ranking official within the White House who is assigned only this role."

https://www.hstoday.us/subject-matter-areas/emergency-preparedness/top-white-house-official-charge-of-pandemic-response-exits-abruptly (https://www.hstoday.us/subject-matter-areas/emergency-preparedness/top-white-house-official-charge-of-pandemic-response-exits-abruptly/)

Just Security - March 16, 2020

"The organizational structure that is left after a concerted effort to “streamline” reveals what you actually care about. Bolton’s chosen approach to NSC “streamlining” involved decapitating and diluting the White House’s focus on pandemic threats. He eliminated the Senior Director position entirely, closed the biodefense directorate, and spread the remaining staff across other parts of the NSC. That’s the opposite of streamlining. Instead of giving the issue a distinct institutional presence, expertise, and voice in the policy process, Bolton’s reorganization left it fragmented across other directorates that were focused on other higher priorities.

Bolton’s organizational choices meant the NSC didn’t have a cohesive team able to elevate pandemic readiness expertise directly to senior leaders. Instead, the NSC had director-level subject-matter experts scattered around with limited influence and little ability to reach decision-makers. These people were highly capable and impressive, but their influence was diluted by the new structure. This can cost lives in a crisis. As Cameron wrote, “In a health security crisis, speed is essential. When this new coronavirus emerged, there was no clear White House-led structure to oversee our response, and we lost valuable time.”

https://www.justsecurity.org/69197/lessons-ignored-john-boltons-bogus-defense-of-streamlining-away-our-bio-readiness/ (https://www.justsecurity.org/69197/lessons-ignored-john-boltons-bogus-defense-of-streamlining-away-our-bio-readiness/)

https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/09/28/the-next-pandemic-will-be-arriving-shortly-global-health-infectious-avian-flu-ebola-zoonotic-diseases-trump (https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/09/28/the-next-pandemic-will-be-arriving-shortly-global-health-infectious-avian-flu-ebola-zoonotic-diseases-trump/)

https://www.politico.com/2020/03/12/america-national-security-viral-threat (https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/12/america-national-security-viral-threat-126574)
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 11, 2020, 02:25:27 am
We have pretty much beaten this mask mandate thing to death. I haven’t seen anyone except Joe say there are any downsides to a mask mandate. We have seat belt and motorcycle helmet laws. Sure, there are people who don’t follow them. Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have them. The anti seat belt and motorcycle helmet guys always say they don’t save lives and point to articles on the internet to support their position. So what. Masks aren’t a panacea. Just one tool in the toolkit. Scientists seem to think they help. Of course, some guys say we shouldn’t listen to the scientists because the have been wrong before. So what. Wear a mask, don’t wear a mask. Your choice. Wash your hands, don’t wash your hands. Your choice.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 11, 2020, 06:18:08 am
No need to be sorry. You didn't decide to eliminate the senior administration level status of Global Health Security within the NSC. It was—and still is—a controversial decision which eliminated the position of a senior level director at NSC focused on tracking and coordinating response to pandemic threats and merging it from its own lane into a group which covers arms control and nonproliferation. It is diluted by losing its individual direction, senior level connection and voice, and having to compete for attention with other security concerns within a consolidated group sharing a lane.

Homeland Security Today - May 11, 2018

"The top White House official responsible for leading the U.S. response in the event of a deadly pandemic has left the administration, and the global health security team he oversaw has been disbanded under a reorganization by national security adviser John Bolton.

The abrupt departure of Rear Adm. Timothy Ziemer from the National Security Council means no senior administration official is now focused solely on global health security. Ziemer’s departure, along with the breakup of his team, comes at a time when many experts say the country is already underprepared for the increasing risks of a pandemic or bioterrorism attack.

Ziemer’s last day was Tuesday, the same day a new Ebola outbreak was declared in Congo. He is not being replaced.

Pandemic preparedness and global health security are issues that require government-wide responses, experts say, as well as the leadership of a high-ranking official within the White House who is assigned only this role."

https://www.hstoday.us/subject-matter-areas/emergency-preparedness/top-white-house-official-charge-of-pandemic-response-exits-abruptly (https://www.hstoday.us/subject-matter-areas/emergency-preparedness/top-white-house-official-charge-of-pandemic-response-exits-abruptly/)

Just Security - March 16, 2020

"The organizational structure that is left after a concerted effort to “streamline” reveals what you actually care about. Bolton’s chosen approach to NSC “streamlining” involved decapitating and diluting the White House’s focus on pandemic threats. He eliminated the Senior Director position entirely, closed the biodefense directorate, and spread the remaining staff across other parts of the NSC. That’s the opposite of streamlining. Instead of giving the issue a distinct institutional presence, expertise, and voice in the policy process, Bolton’s reorganization left it fragmented across other directorates that were focused on other higher priorities.

Bolton’s organizational choices meant the NSC didn’t have a cohesive team able to elevate pandemic readiness expertise directly to senior leaders. Instead, the NSC had director-level subject-matter experts scattered around with limited influence and little ability to reach decision-makers. These people were highly capable and impressive, but their influence was diluted by the new structure. This can cost lives in a crisis. As Cameron wrote, “In a health security crisis, speed is essential. When this new coronavirus emerged, there was no clear White House-led structure to oversee our response, and we lost valuable time.”

https://www.justsecurity.org/69197/lessons-ignored-john-boltons-bogus-defense-of-streamlining-away-our-bio-readiness/ (https://www.justsecurity.org/69197/lessons-ignored-john-boltons-bogus-defense-of-streamlining-away-our-bio-readiness/)

https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/09/28/the-next-pandemic-will-be-arriving-shortly-global-health-infectious-avian-flu-ebola-zoonotic-diseases-trump (https://foreignpolicy.com/2018/09/28/the-next-pandemic-will-be-arriving-shortly-global-health-infectious-avian-flu-ebola-zoonotic-diseases-trump/)

https://www.politico.com/2020/03/12/america-national-security-viral-threat (https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/12/america-national-security-viral-threat-126574)

We can play dueling quotes forever as that your stock in trade but the fact remains they got moved and absorbed in to another group.  You can argue it was as effective as before ( of course we will never really know) but it does not change the fact the group was consolidated within another group.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 11, 2020, 06:22:14 am
From the United States House Committee on Oversight...  https://twitter.com/OversightDems/whistleblower completely RECANTED his allegations after being questioned by investigators, according to IG (https://twitter.com/OversightDems/status/1326289047933816836)

Time will tell who has better information from the IG Inspectors, Jack Posobiec and James O'Keefe or Congress. I hate to seem skeptical of the dynamic duo of Posobiec and O'Keefe, but one should consider the source of these things and well...

Yes time will tell.  At least they were talking to the whistleblower.  Can you quote one to tne "real" news sources that talked to the whistleblower for his side of the story, or even tried? 

More video, and the claim the whistleblower tried to contact the press and they dissewd him..
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/11/breaking-project-veritas-releases-shocking-recordings-federal-agents-trying-intimidate-usps-whistleblower-recanting-election-fraud-claim/
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 11, 2020, 06:53:01 am
Maybe there's a contest on to see who is weirder, Pompano or Giuliani. My money's on Rudy, he's got a great head start.

Rudy is clearly the weirder. He's whackadoodle. Pompeo is sane, an ass kisser, but sane. He got his aides to walk his dog.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 11, 2020, 07:07:07 am
About that postal service guy recanting or not. No need to decide whether he did or didn't. Wait and see. No need to take up sides 30 seconds after something does or doesn't happen. It is interesting to see what media different individuals go to for news though. So go straight for the conspiracy theory sites.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JoeKitchen on November 11, 2020, 07:21:59 am
That's where you really need to clarify your position Joe.

You have never ever explained clearly why you support Trump besides what you see as favorable economic results and him being on the Republican lists.

Perhaps we could all benefit for you casting some light on exactly how you feel about Trumpism? What aspects you think are acceptable, what aspects aren't for you.

He has lost, that won't make a difference anymore. There is no more risk that an admission of issues could have a negative impact on an election.

Contrary to what you seem to think, I am not pro Biden (I am just anti-Trump for reasons I have explained at length), but I'll list the aspects I find unclear/un-appealing about him:
- He is too old to be a President
- He is not left winged enough for my taste
- He is reliable but boring compared to an Obama for instance who had a remarkle wit

Are you interested in sharing what you like/dislike about Trump?

Cheers,
Bernard

Sure Bernard, just for you. 

Positives
economic policies
deregulation
expansion of fracking permits which gave us energy independence for the first time in my life
his staunch defense of federalism (especially during the last year when he could have expanded the federal government easily but did not), even if it was unintentional
his judiciary picks including the three new Justices on the court
His foreign policy, all of it, especially getting out of the Iran Nuclear Deal
As an outsider non-politician, him not being bound to some sort of ethics in respecting all government institutions to the point of not questioning if they continue to serve a purpose.  For example, his question about whether NATO still serves a purpose since the USSR is no more or he pulling out of the WHO after it became obvious they are a shill for China.  Another, moving the embassy in Israel, something all republican presidents promised but never did. 

Negatives
Being an ass on twitter
Not realizing that, although he is great at branding, he sucks at communications and refusing to rely on his professionals
Giving too much into the religious right
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: kers on November 11, 2020, 07:24:46 am
What I understand is what Trump needs to win is to find evidence of organized large scale fraud for the benefit of Biden in a couple of independant states.
An organized fraud that until now never took place in election history, and as some people has said:
They were more alert than ususal to signal fraud since Trump was already talking about upcoming fraud the last couple of months.
So it is highly improbable that large scale fraud has occurred also since there were no spontaneous indications in any state that somehing had gone wrong.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Alan Klein on November 11, 2020, 07:37:42 am
Your ability to ignore your past statements and reverse course on a dime is something else. You're in a league of your own! Now you want to look at the national popular vote for comparative analysis of election results in different years?

When I made a post, in the previous political thread, that compared the national popular vote to electoral votes in 2008, 2012, and 2016; you vociferously objected to comparing or even considering the national popular vote. To quote, you said...

"You conveniently left out the most important statistic. Donald Trump 58%  Hillary Clinton 42% - electoral votes for president 2016." ... "That's deceptive. You never listed the electoral percentage totals. This is the accurate way it should have been shown: Final Election Day Result: Clinton 43% / 232 Electoral Votes — Trump 57% / 306 Electoral Votes". (Note... don't blame me for the inconsistency of the percentages from one statement to another, I'm just quoting you.)

So... to use your previous "logic", assuming the present lead in the various States remains as it is currently, Biden will net 306 electoral votes to Trump's 232. In other words, following your previously insistent "accurate way"—people voted for Trump in 2020 at 43% which is a much lower percentage than 4 years ago at 57%.

Using your previous logic and insistence that the "accurate way" to look at election results was to compare electoral vote, Trump lost 14% of his previous vote total; a very large drop.

You said it was Biden that constantly changed his positions. Perhaps it was just the way that you changed your way of looking at them.
My post had nothing to do with electoral count.   I was only pointing out that despite 5 years of attacks on Trump including impeachment, collusion,  Russia, treason, etc.  Trump increased the percent of people who voted for him. Why? Did the public ignore the media's claims? Were they crying wolf too much? Was Biden a weak candidate?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: kers on November 11, 2020, 07:50:59 am
My post had nothing to do with electoral count.   I was only pointing out that despite 5 years of attacks on Trump including impeachment, collusion,  Russia, treason, etc.  Trump increased the percent of people who voted for him. Why? Did the public ignore the media's claims? Were they crying wolf too much? Was Biden a weak candidate?
Biden a weak candidate -? more people than ever voted for Biden - 4 million more than trump.(74 vs 70 million votes)
So if you think Trump did well, Biden did terrific.

PS Trump does not concede but he only plays golf while covide surges at its top.- Biden already has replaced him as a working president.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JV on November 11, 2020, 07:54:22 am
Trump increased the percent of people who voted for him. Why? Did the public ignore the media's claims? Were they crying wolf too much? Was Biden a weak candidate?

The Libertarian Party and the Green Party together took 4.35% of the votes in 2016.  That is why Trump's and also Biden's (compared to Clinton) percentage increased.

Whatever you think of Biden he did get more than 50% of the votes, a record number of votes, he will most likely flip 5 states and he is currently leading the popular vote with 4.8 million votes. 

Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Alan Klein on November 11, 2020, 07:57:54 am
It's a near certainty that Trump will accelerate the sowing of as much division between citizens as possible and work even harder to undermine confidence in American democracy through false assertions and encouraging distrust in the necessary institutions upon which democracy relies. Authoritarian governments around the world that want to undermine the ideals of democracy and the United States will take pleasure in that.

It will certainly be a stress test for democracy in the United States, but I agree with you. I think the country can handle the obvious and petty machinations of a sociopathic narcissist like Trump and get thru this battered but intact.
How is this worse than the Gore chad issue during the 2000 election that had to go to the Supreme Court to get resolved? We didn't know who the president elect was for around 39 days. Four years ago there were also demands for recounts but not from Trump. Also,  Hillary Clinton tried to get Trump electors to change their votes to her.  These things happen and are perfectly legal if worrisome and frustrating to the winning side.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Alan Klein on November 11, 2020, 08:02:38 am
Being able to challenge election results in a court of law is what a democracy is all about. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Alan Klein on November 11, 2020, 08:06:59 am
It is exactly one week after the US election and both the infections (over 133,000) and deaths (over 1,300) are steadily rising. The increase in the Covid cases correlates clearly with increased human contacts during mass gatherings around the election date (pre-election rallies, voting attendance, celebrations and protests). The spread of the virus with the added new virus carriers could get much worse this coming week.
Pretty soon we won't need a vaccine. 🤔
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Alan Klein on November 11, 2020, 08:15:06 am
The plan is available to read here...  https://buildbackbetter.com/priorities/covid-19/ (https://buildbackbetter.com/priorities/covid-19/)

And reported on here...  https://www.livescience.com/biden-harris-coronavirus-plans (https://www.livescience.com/biden-harris-coronavirus-plans.html)

I haven't read any criticism of anything specific in the plan here, just generic sneering. It seems to follow both science and common sense.

There really isn't anything new regarding the general public health approach to limiting the spread of infectious disease that hasn't been known and practiced for decades; whether it's Tuberculosis, Syphilis, Ebola, or Covid-19. To be effective in limiting spread requires rapid local testing, isolation of those exposed or infected, and rapid contact tracing. It also requires effective leadership in instructing the public how to avoid becoming infected or spreading the disease to others; whether that's condoms for STDs or masks and social distancing for airborne viruses.

If you want to contain the spread of a disease locally and avoid widespread restrictions, that's been the approach. The longer testing takes; the longer the disease spreads and the more difficult contact tracing becomes. The more difficult and time consuming testing and tracing are the faster it spirals beyond any local control of isolating the infected and exposed. It's common sense and common public health practice.
Biden's economic plan will bankrupt America. It's Socialist.  He wants to redistribute the wealth of the country.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Alan Klein on November 11, 2020, 08:23:25 am
Wrong. Strong leadership from all levels of government have a huge impact on people's habits. Look at how we've changed our views towards throwing garbage out of our cars, wearing seat belts, smoking... Without strong leadership, these habits would not have changed. Trump going against wearing masks has a huge negative impact on the people.
Then why is it just as bad or worse in many other countries that have a strong central government unlike in America where each of the 50 states decide mask and shutdown provisions?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JoeKitchen on November 11, 2020, 08:24:21 am

Back to the mask debate, I have asked repeatably for people here to show me the data that shows masks do something.  Not opinion pieces, and I do'nt give a rat's ass if the opinion piece is written by a doctor, but I want to see actual data. 

So far the two studies I have looked at where the data is available, there is no correlation between wearing masks and stopping the spread. A near equal percentage of persons in both the experiment group and control group wore masks, which implies there is no correlation to wearing a mask to keep from getting it. 

Now these studies do show that the ways in which you increase your chances of catching is if a close family member has it or if you dine out. 

So, once again, if masks actually do something, show me the data, because so far I have seen no data set that supports this notion. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: jeremyrh on November 11, 2020, 08:36:34 am
Being able to challenge election results in a court of law is what a democracy is all about.

I'm sure Putin agrees with you. His opponents often end up in court.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: James Clark on November 11, 2020, 08:37:16 am
Back to the mask debate, I have asked repeatably for people here to show me the data that shows masks do something.  Not opinion pieces, and I do'nt give a rat's ass if the opinion piece is written by a doctor, but I want to see actual data. 

So far the two studies I have looked at where the data is available, there is no correlation between wearing masks and stopping the spread. A near equal percentage of persons in both the experiment group and control group wore masks, which implies there is no correlation to wearing a mask to keep from getting it. 

Now these studies do show that the ways in which you increase your chances of catching is if a close family member has it or if you dine out. 

So, once again, if masks actually do something, show me the data, because so far I have seen no data set that supports this notion.

Nature, Sept. 24 (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-72798-7). It also addresses previous studies showing that physical barriers capture particulates.

Quote
These observations directly demonstrate that wearing of surgical masks or KN95 respirators, even without fit-testing, substantially reduce the number of particles emitted from breathing, talking, and coughing. While the efficacy of cloth and paper masks is not as clear and confounded by shedding of mask fibers, the observations indicate it is likely that they provide some reductions in emitted expiratory particles, in particular the larger particles (> 0.5 μm). We have not directly measured virus emission; nonetheless, our results strongly imply that mask wearing will reduce emission of virus-laden aerosols and droplets associated with expiratory activities, unless appreciable shedding of viable viruses on mask fibers occurs. The majority of the particles emitted were in the aerosol range (< 5 μm). As inertial impaction should increase as particle size increases, it seems likely that the emission reductions observed here provide a lower bound for the reduction of particles in the droplet range (> 5 μm). Our observations are consistent with suggestions that mask wearing can help in mitigating pandemics associated with respiratory disease. Our results highlight the importance of regular changing of disposable masks and washing of homemade masks, and suggests that special care must be taken when removing and cleaning the masks.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Alan Klein on November 11, 2020, 08:38:00 am
So that’s why all of those spring breakers in the US decided to say the heck with masks and social distancing?  Because they are mostly likely liberal and they listened to Trump?  Really you want us to they gave a dang about what Trump did or did not say?

And since I’m a Trump supporter why did I decide I wanted to wear a mask?  In your world I would not be wearing one.
I'm a Teump supporter too.  Yet I wear a mask. I don't listen to Trump about masks.  I'm not crazy.   In any case, governors make the rules.   Everyone forgets that Trump originally said he was going to make the rules.  All the governors told him to shut up.  He's not in charge.  They are. My governor of New Jersey just changed the rules again about restaurants.  No eating after 10pm. Another dumb rule like the virus only comes out at night like a vampire.  And you wonder why wer have such high rates.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JoeKitchen on November 11, 2020, 08:46:22 am
In other news, and this I find to be both amusing and scary at the same time, Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel is now heading up Biden C-19 team. 

If you are wondering why this is scary, well a few years back Ezekiel Emanuel penned a whole article in which he argued people should not live past 75. 

Why I Hope to Die at 75 (https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/10/why-i-hope-to-die-at-75/379329/)

According to him, 75 is the best age to die at and it would be a net positive for society if we just let those over 75 whom "... are no longer remembered as vibrant and engaged but as feeble, ineffectual, even pathetic" (just think of Joe Biden) just die without trying to save them.  We should instead save those resources for younger more vibrant persons. 

He even went so far as to write if you're over 75 "... Flu shots are out. Certainly if there were to be a flu pandemic, a younger person who has yet to live a complete life ought to get the vaccine or any antiviral drugs."

So, Biden just hired someone to oversee a task force for a virus that kills mainly people over 75 who once argued that during a pandemic people over 75 should not get a vaccine because they already lead a complete life.  This is kind of a conflict of interest, don't you think? 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Alan Klein on November 11, 2020, 08:56:49 am
What I understand is what Trump needs to win is to find evidence of organized large scale fraud for the benefit of Biden in a couple of independant states.
An organized fraud that until now never took place in election history, and as some people has said:
They were more alert than ususal to signal fraud since Trump was already talking about upcoming fraud the last couple of months.
So it is highly improbable that large scale fraud has occurred also since there were no spontaneous indications in any state that somehing had gone wrong.
Democrat Senator Kennedy won the presidency by election fraud in 1960. Democrat Mayor Daily packed the Chicago ballot boxes for him winning the state of Illinois and the electoral vote. You really need to stick to European politics.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 11, 2020, 09:06:43 am
Democrat Senator Kennedy won the presidency by election fraud in 1960. Democrat Mayor Daily packed the Chicago ballot boxes for him winning the state of Illinois and the electoral vote. You really need to stick to European politics.

Ain't American democracy great!
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: kers on November 11, 2020, 09:07:48 am
Democrat Senator Kennedy won the presidency by election fraud in 1960. Democrat Mayor Daily packed the Chicago ballot boxes for him winning the state of Illinois and the electoral vote. You really need to stick to European politics.
https://www.constitutioncenter.org/blog/the-drama-behind-president-kennedys-1960-election-win/
You ended up with the wrong conclusion ...
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Alan Klein on November 11, 2020, 09:08:31 am
The Libertarian Party and the Green Party together took 4.35% of the votes in 2016.  That is why Trump's and also Biden's (compared to Clinton) percentage increased.

Whatever you think of Biden he did get more than 50% of the votes, a record number of votes, he will most likely flip 5 states and he is currently leading the popular vote with 4.8 million votes. 


OK, so take off the third party votes.  Then you'd have Biden and Trump where Hillary and Trump were four years ago.  Also about 48% and 46%. Nothing changed much with Trump supporters with all the bad press over 4 years. Don't you find that interesting?  What does that mean?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JV on November 11, 2020, 09:13:48 am
Biden's economic plan will bankrupt America. It's Socialist. 

I guess that is why Obama/Biden created more jobs than Trump as well? 

And they had 3.1% economic growth in 2015 which Trump didn't match either despite promises of 4, 5, and maybe even 6%...
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Alan Klein on November 11, 2020, 09:15:25 am
In other news, and this I find to be both amusing and scary at the same time, Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel is now heading up Biden C-19 team. 

If you are wondering why this is scary, well a few years back Ezekiel Emanuel penned a whole article in which he argued people should not live past 75. 

Why I Hope to Die at 75 (https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/10/why-i-hope-to-die-at-75/379329/)

According to him, 75 is the best age to die at and it would be a net positive for society if we just let those over 75 whom "... are no longer remembered as vibrant and engaged but as feeble, ineffectual, even pathetic" (just think of Joe Biden) just die without trying to save them.  We should instead save those resources for younger more vibrant persons. 

He even went so far as to write if you're over 75 "... Flu shots are out. Certainly if there were to be a flu pandemic, a younger person who has yet to live a complete life ought to get the vaccine or any antiviral drugs."

So, Biden just hired someone to oversee a task force for a virus that kills mainly people over 75 who once argued that during a pandemic people over 75 should not get a vaccine because they already lead a complete life.  This is kind of a conflict of interest, don't you think? 
I'm 75.😏
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JoeKitchen on November 11, 2020, 09:17:16 am
Nature, Sept. 24 (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-72798-7). It also addresses previous studies showing that physical barriers capture particulates.

Nice try, but this study looks at partial emissions only.  You may think this helps, but you really need to conduct real life studies to see if it does.  It could be that C-19 is so contagious, even removing 90% of partials from a person's breath will have no effect. 

As an analogy, if you were to wear a run of the mill respirator to protect yourself from a VX Nerve Agent would it remove most of the particles from the air you breath in?  Yes.  Would it save you?  No, because it is so deadly it would not matter.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JoeKitchen on November 11, 2020, 09:18:14 am
Democrat Senator Kennedy won the presidency by election fraud in 1960. Democrat Mayor Daily packed the Chicago ballot boxes for him winning the state of Illinois and the electoral vote. You really need to stick to European politics.

Dont forget about LBJ.  He won his primary through voter fraud. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Alan Klein on November 11, 2020, 09:25:50 am
https://www.constitutioncenter.org/blog/the-drama-behind-president-kennedys-1960-election-win/
You ended up with the wrong conclusion ...
the article you quoted did not draw a substantive conclusion either way. The fact is Kennedy won Illinois by 9000 votes.    Certainly a lot less dead people Mayor Daley assembled on any other election occasion.   
😑
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Alan Klein on November 11, 2020, 09:29:21 am
The expression at the time was,  "The Democrats stole it fair and square. "
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: JV on November 11, 2020, 09:30:03 am
OK, so take off the third party votes.  Then you'd have Biden and Trump where Hillary and Trump were four years ago.  Also about 48% and 46%. Nothing changed much with Trump supporters with all the bad press over 4 years. Don't you find that interesting?  What does that mean?

In my opinion it just illustrates that incumbency is a pretty big advantage in US Politics.  It is really hard to defeat an incumbent President. 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Alan Klein on November 11, 2020, 09:33:29 am
I guess that is why Obama/Biden created more jobs than Trump as well? 

And they had 3.1% economic growth in 2015 which Trump didn't match either despite promises of 4, 5, and maybe even 6%...
Biden's move very far to the left to satisfy the AOC's. And the EOC's. 😂
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Alan Klein on November 11, 2020, 09:36:01 am
Dont forget about LBJ.  He won his primary through voter fraud. 
Worse,  his lies escalated the Vietnam War.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 11, 2020, 10:08:32 am
Back to the mask debate, I have asked repeatably for people here to show me the data that shows masks do something.  Not opinion pieces, and I do'nt give a rat's ass if the opinion piece is written by a doctor, but I want to see actual data. 

So far the two studies I have looked at where the data is available, there is no correlation between wearing masks and stopping the spread. A near equal percentage of persons in both the experiment group and control group wore masks, which implies there is no correlation to wearing a mask to keep from getting it. 

Now these studies do show that the ways in which you increase your chances of catching is if a close family member has it or if you dine out. 

So, once again, if masks actually do something, show me the data, because so far I have seen no data set that supports this notion.

You have done what you consider adequate research on the internet, the arbiter of all truth in our society, and have determined masks don't help. Fine. Don't wear one. Why do you keep bleating on and on about it?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: James Clark on November 11, 2020, 10:18:43 am
You have done what you consider adequate research on the internet, the arbiter of truth in our society, and have determined masks don't help. Fine. Don't wear one. Why do you keep bleating on and on about it?

Because TEH LIBS are trying to take away his freedumbs or something.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 11, 2020, 10:44:04 am
So, Biden just hired someone to oversee a task force for a virus that kills mainly people over 75 who once argued that during a pandemic people over 75 should not get a vaccine because they already lead a complete life.

I think you should re-read the article more carefully.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Robert Roaldi on November 11, 2020, 11:04:12 am
We have pretty much beaten this mask mandate thing to death. I haven’t seen anyone except Joe say there are any downsides to a mask mandate. We have seat belt and motorcycle helmet laws. Sure, there are people who don’t follow them. Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have them. The anti seat belt and motorcycle helmet guys always say they don’t save lives and point to articles on the internet to support their position. So what. Masks aren’t a panacea. Just one tool in the toolkit. Scientists seem to think they help. Of course, some guys say we shouldn’t listen to the scientists because the have been wrong before. So what. Wear a mask, don’t wear a mask. Your choice. Wash your hands, don’t wash your hands. Your choice.

I saw a photo taken at an anti-mask demonstration in Montreal (I think) a few weeks ago in which just behind the main subjects was a guy holding up a sign that said, "Oxygen is important." A pretty anodyne kind of protest sign, I thought, it is true of course, strictly speaking, but I assume he meant that wearing masks is an issue because they block oxygen intake. I never did the google search to try to find stories of paint shop employees or wood-workers or surgical teams passing out from oxygen deprivation, even though they all wear masks for hours on end.

Then a Far Side Gary Larson-esque cartoon idea occurred to me: an operating room scene where just after the anaesthetic knocks out the patient, the surgical team members whip off their masks to party.

Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 11, 2020, 11:07:21 am
How is this worse than the Gore chad issue during the 2000 election that had to go to the Supreme Court to get resolved?

At least we knew in 2000 there was actually an issue, instead of a lot of hand waving about massive voter fraud.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: James Clark on November 11, 2020, 11:10:29 am
At least we knew in 2000 there was actually an issue, instead of a lot of hand waving about massive voter fraud.

It really ought to be "massive voter fraud" or, alternatively, MASSIVE VOTER FRAUD!!!
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Robert Roaldi on November 11, 2020, 11:10:35 am
Biden's economic plan will bankrupt America. It's Socialist.  He wants to redistribute the wealth of the country.

Well, if Obama's 8 years, and Clinton's 8 years and Carter's time and JFK's time, didn't bankrupt the country, not sure why you're worried now. I mean, judging by any objective measure, the country did ok, especially the 1%.

I think you may be exaggerating. Btw, why did you capitalize "Socialist"? 

I also don't know what you mean by redistributing the wealth of the country. Wealth has been steadily redistributing to the 1% for decades now, is that what you mean?

Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: John Camp on November 11, 2020, 11:28:11 am
My post had nothing to do with electoral count.   I was only pointing out that despite 5 years of attacks on Trump including impeachment, collusion,  Russia, treason, etc.  Trump increased the percent of people who voted for him. Why? Did the public ignore the media's claims? Were they crying wolf too much? Was Biden a weak candidate?

Because Trump is a gifted con man.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Robert Roaldi on November 11, 2020, 11:33:31 am
Remember back in the day when this kind of second-rate sh*t show only occurred in what we used to call "third world shit holes", https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/11/trump-fraud-claims-gop-435884 (https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/11/trump-fraud-claims-gop-435884). Is this another consequence of globalization?   :)
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: James Clark on November 11, 2020, 11:53:37 am
Remember back in the day when this kind of second-rate sh*t show only occurred in what we used to call "third world shit holes", https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/11/trump-fraud-claims-gop-435884 (https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/11/trump-fraud-claims-gop-435884). Is this another consequence of globalization?   :)

Semi-related, according to Bill Kristol (https://twitter.com/BillKristol/status/1326530952487702528) (traditional conservative, anti-Trump), "...A sign of the loyalty-oath atmosphere now at DOD: When Jim Anderson was fired yesterday as Acting Under Secretary for Policy, he was given a "clap-out" as he left the building. The WH called to request names of any political appointees who joined in so they could be fired."

Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: chez on November 11, 2020, 11:58:37 am
Remember back in the day when this kind of second-rate sh*t show only occurred in what we used to call "third world shit holes", https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/11/trump-fraud-claims-gop-435884 (https://www.politico.com/news/2020/11/11/trump-fraud-claims-gop-435884). Is this another consequence of globalization?   :)

Nope, just conman and narcissists run those "sh*t hole countries" and here in the USA...we'll never mind.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Robert Roaldi on November 11, 2020, 12:00:51 pm
Semi-related, according to Bill Kristol (https://twitter.com/BillKristol/status/1326530952487702528) (traditional conservative, anti-Trump), "...A sign of the loyalty-oath atmosphere now at DOD: When Jim Anderson was fired yesterday as Acting Under Secretary for Policy, he was given a "clap-out" as he left the building. The WH called to request names of any political appointees who joined in so they could be fired."

Classy bunch.  How does an adult professional even find the time to dream up nonsense like that?

But who knows, it might turn out to be a badge of honour to be fired by these twerps. Can you imagine the kind of sycophantic swamp rat that would end up working in these jobs if that was allowed to continue for a few years. Might as well bring back monarchist rule.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on November 11, 2020, 12:03:52 pm
Back to the mask debate, I have asked repeatably for people here to show me the data that shows masks do something.  Not opinion pieces, and I do'nt give a rat's ass if the opinion piece is written by a doctor, but I want to see actual data. 

So far the two studies I have looked at where the data is available, there is no correlation between wearing masks and stopping the spread. A near equal percentage of persons in both the experiment group and control group wore masks, which implies there is no correlation to wearing a mask to keep from getting it. 

Now these studies do show that the ways in which you increase your chances of catching is if a close family member has it or if you dine out. 

So, once again, if masks actually do something, show me the data, because so far I have seen no data set that supports this notion.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30352-0/fulltext
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 11, 2020, 12:08:44 pm
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS2213-2600(20)30352-0/fulltext

Joe's exhaustive research comprised of reading two articles on the internet has convinced him that wearing masks is not helpful in deterring transmission of COVID. There is little to be gained by trying to convince him otherwise.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: kers on November 11, 2020, 12:09:33 pm
about wearing a mask;
This photo is from 1918- Spanish Flew
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Alan Klein on November 11, 2020, 12:18:03 pm
I saw a photo taken at an anti-mask demonstration in Montreal (I think) a few weeks ago in which just behind the main subjects was a guy holding up a sign that said, "Oxygen is important." A pretty anodyne kind of protest sign, I thought, it is true of course, strictly speaking, but I assume he meant that wearing masks is an issue because they block oxygen intake. I never did the google search to try to find stories of paint shop employees or wood-workers or surgical teams passing out from oxygen deprivation, even though they all wear masks for hours on end.

Then a Far Side Gary Larson-esque cartoon idea occurred to me: an operating room scene where just after the anaesthetic knocks out the patient, the surgical team members whip off their masks to party.


I find that our KN-95 masks clog up my nose and I find it hard to breathe after twenty minutes or so.  Then my nose runs and I have to blow it so I can breathe.  It's very annoying,  I could try clothe type masks.  But they're not as good, supposedly.  You shouldn't assume everyone is like you.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Alan Klein on November 11, 2020, 12:24:54 pm
At least we knew in 2000 there was actually an issue, instead of a lot of hand waving about massive voter fraud.
There was no issue.  It was an excuse.  Gore only wanted a recount in the PAlm, Dade and Broward counties of Florida which are overwhelmingly Democratic.  He actually conceded.  But then changed his mind after other Democrats told him he should try to change the result.  So he went for it.  He hired the best lawyers, election and constitutional, in the nation.  He caused massive confusion, much worse than what's happening now.  But certainly he had a right to try because it was close.  Well Trump's entitled to.  That's what the courts are for.   
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: William Walker on November 11, 2020, 12:25:52 pm
In other news, and this I find to be both amusing and scary at the same time, Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel is now heading up Biden C-19 team. 

If you are wondering why this is scary, well a few years back Ezekiel Emanuel penned a whole article in which he argued people should not live past 75. 

Why I Hope to Die at 75 (https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/10/why-i-hope-to-die-at-75/379329/)

According to him, 75 is the best age to die at and it would be a net positive for society if we just let those over 75 whom "... are no longer remembered as vibrant and engaged but as feeble, ineffectual, even pathetic" (just think of Joe Biden) just die without trying to save them.  We should instead save those resources for younger more vibrant persons. 

He even went so far as to write if you're over 75 "... Flu shots are out. Certainly if there were to be a flu pandemic, a younger person who has yet to live a complete life ought to get the vaccine or any antiviral drugs."

So, Biden just hired someone to oversee a task force for a virus that kills mainly people over 75 who once argued that during a pandemic people over 75 should not get a vaccine because they already lead a complete life.  This is kind of a conflict of interest, don't you think?

Thanks for the link Joe, I really enjoyed the article and would encourage all the other "old bullets" on this forum to read it.
My wife has received new instructions!
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 11, 2020, 12:41:06 pm
About that postal service guy recanting or not. No need to decide whether he did or didn't. Wait and see. No need to take up sides 30 seconds after something does or doesn't happen. It is interesting to see what media different individuals go to for news though. So go straight for the conspiracy theory sites.

Heres the problem with news. The "real"media is not being real these days.  In this instance, why would any outlet NOT ask the guy directly, or at least try?  Instead we get the same basic report from all the real media based on a tweet and a couple of "unnamed sources".  We heard them all tell us a few weeks ago they could not report a word about the laptop because they could not "verify" the material.  Yet here they have the headline they want so they don't really worry about verification, and even diss the main actor when he tries to talk to them. 

Its a shame we have to look outside the "real" media to see if something else might be going on.  They have proventhey are no longer trustworthy, at least in my eyes.  The problem is conspiracies do exist.  And sometimes its the people you are supposed to trust.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Alan Klein on November 11, 2020, 12:44:14 pm
Well, if Obama's 8 years, and Clinton's 8 years and Carter's time and JFK's time, didn't bankrupt the country, not sure why you're worried now. I mean, judging by any objective measure, the country did ok, especially the 1%.

I think you may be exaggerating. Btw, why did you capitalize "Socialist"? 

I also don't know what you mean by redistributing the wealth of the country. Wealth has been steadily redistributing to the 1% for decades now, is that what you mean?


Redistribution is bad regardless of who gets it.  Crony Capitalism is bad as well.  Most of the money printing is going to the wealthy now in asset appreciation which will change when the economy sinks and the markets sink as well.   But also to everyone else. That's wrong.  But we shouldn't redistribute it to anyone.  Trump printed as much as any socialist around.  He's no better.  Never said he was.  But Biden's bought into to it from AOC and other Socialists. He'll print til the cows home home.  The only thing holding it back a little would be a Republican Senate.  But they're not much better.

By the way, all this printing and deficit spending is breaking the country.  That's one of he reasons why there is such a huge gap between wealthy and poor.  Money has been devalued so people's wages aren't worth anything anymore.  Taxes have gone up to pay for more government spending.  So people have less net income.  Wives have had to go to work to support the household where before the husband was able to feed the family on his one salary. 

The country's debt has more than doubled since Obama took over.  This chart ends last year at 2019.  The Debt is now 130% of the GDP.  That means taxes go up and business and jobs go down to try to pay it back.  But there's no incentive to pay it back.  Biden will continue printing as Trump did, probably worse.  Your salary and my pension won't be worth squat.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Alan Klein on November 11, 2020, 12:46:50 pm
Because Trump is a gifted con man.
Well, aren't all politicians?  :)
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 11, 2020, 12:47:33 pm
Semi-related, according to Bill Kristol (https://twitter.com/BillKristol/status/1326530952487702528) (traditional conservative, anti-Trump), "...A sign of the loyalty-oath atmosphere now at DOD: When Jim Anderson was fired yesterday as Acting Under Secretary for Policy, he was given a "clap-out" as he left the building. The WH called to request names of any political appointees who joined in so they could be fired."

Payback can be a bitch.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: digitaldog on November 11, 2020, 12:48:52 pm
This idea, that there is no data to show masks "do something" is idiotic. Masks have been worn in hospitals and elsewhere for well over 100 years, of course they do something useful as protection to others. Only those deep inside the unreality bubble of alternative facts would suggest they don't do anything and make them political. They might as well ask for 'facts' that the Earth is round and the sun revolves around it, that gravity exists. When provided actual facts and data, overwhelming accepted by many experts (and they are not), they will push back and deny these facts. The same folks, reading the National Enquirer or some bogus web site, believe father Cruz aided in the JFK assassination, Clinton is a pedophile and Democrats eat babies.

Yet some believe climate change and Covid-19 and masks are a hoax. Pathetic ignorance. 

There is more than enough evidence from scientists and others that masks do something quite useful, they are damn helpful in preventing the infectious spread from Covid-19 and other airborne disease. NO ONE said they are 100% perfection toward protection. Even if some are a mere 20% effective, that's 20% better than no mask. Dismissing mask wearing due to ignorance and inability to accept what they do is simply a sign of trollish stupidity and an agenda of posting to a result of CWOBaT (colossal waste of bandwidth and time). They might as well ask for proof of Gravity and then as their confirmation bias must, they will not  accept the science and data provided. Don't feed trolls, then when they don't get the attention they desire, they will disappear. Some are asking questions expecting data along with opinions. Some are asking questions that no amount of data will provide anything but push back and a lack of acceptance of fact. The Earth IS flat inside their unreality bubble.

There's no data that suggests massive voter fraud that would alter the difference in the votes from last week. A new Politico-Morning Consult poll found that the number of Republicans who now say they don’t believe the 2020 election was free and fair has doubled since the election, moving from 35 percent before the election to 70 percent today. Absurd. Worse is the absurdity that masks do nothing or don't protect those wearing them. Such attitudes are best summed up with this reflection:

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.” Martin Luther King

The idiotic idea that a mask is political and not useful is very dangerous. To those who are around those who refuse to wear them. It's as dangerous as those who tell us they refuse to stop at red lights because doing so affects their personal freedom. Absurd. Dangerous ignorance and conscientious stupidity. You can't fix stupid. Don't try, ignore.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Alan Klein on November 11, 2020, 12:48:55 pm
Semi-related, according to Bill Kristol (https://twitter.com/BillKristol/status/1326530952487702528) (traditional conservative, anti-Trump), "...A sign of the loyalty-oath atmosphere now at DOD: When Jim Anderson was fired yesterday as Acting Under Secretary for Policy, he was given a "clap-out" as he left the building. The WH called to request names of any political appointees who joined in so they could be fired."


WMD Neocon Kristol got us into the Iraq War which Trump opposed.  I wouldn't use him to support my theories.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Alan Klein on November 11, 2020, 12:51:55 pm
about wearing a mask;
This photo is from 1918- Spanish Flew
People didn't want to wear masks then either.  A cop shot one of them.  There's also objections today in Europe.  Who's fault is that?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: James Clark on November 11, 2020, 12:54:38 pm
Payback can be a bitch.

 ;D Nothing says "America First" like purging the institutional knowledge of everyone at DoD that's not a total knob-gobbling sychophant.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Craig Lamson on November 11, 2020, 01:07:52 pm
;D Nothing says "America First" like purging the institutional knowledge of everyone at DoD that's not a total knob-gobbling sychophant.

They are political appointees that are in question.  Fair game and should the election hold for Biden they are gone anyway.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Chris Kern on November 11, 2020, 01:08:01 pm
I find that our KN-95 masks clog up my nose and I find it hard to breathe after twenty minutes or so. . . .

Respirator face masks (U.S. N95 standard, Chinese KN95 standard, European FFP2 standard), when fitted properly with no gaps around the edges, do indeed make breathing more difficult.  There's no way around that: the point of this style of mask is to protect the wearer from large virus droplets and small ones (aerosols), which requires very fine filtration.

It's much easier to breathe through surgical and cloth face masks, which fit more loosely and provide less airflow resistance.  However these are principally designed to protect other people in the presence of the wearer from pathogens that the wearer may be spreading.  When both an infected person and an uninfected person wear this type of mask, the risk to the uninfected person is significantly reduced.  Moreover, the latest guidance from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/masking-science-sars-cov2.html) reports that an uninfected person may indeed receive at least some protection just from wearing this type of mask:

Quote
Experimental and epidemiological data support community masking to reduce the spread of SARS-CoV-2. The prevention benefit of masking is derived from the combination of source control and personal protection for the mask wearer. The relationship between source control and personal protection is likely complementary and possibly synergistic, so that individual benefit increases with increasing community mask use

So it appears that when everybody in your vicinity is wearing a face mask, your risk of infection is relatively low and you can (pun intended) breathe more easily even if you're only wearing a surgical or cloth face mask.  However, if there is a possibility you may be in close proximity to an infected person who isn't wearing a mask, a respirator provides a much high level of protection while making breathing more difficult.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Robert Roaldi on November 11, 2020, 01:12:34 pm
I find that our KN-95 masks clog up my nose and I find it hard to breathe after twenty minutes or so.  Then my nose runs and I have to blow it so I can breathe.  It's very annoying,  I could try clothe type masks.  But they're not as good, supposedly.  You shouldn't assume everyone is like you.

When did I say that everyone is like me?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Alan Klein on November 11, 2020, 02:01:16 pm
Respirator face masks (U.S. N95 standard, Chinese KN95 standard, European FFP2 standard), when fitted properly with no gaps around the edges, do indeed make breathing more difficult.  There's no way around that: the point of this style of mask is to protect the wearer from large virus droplets and small ones (aerosols), which requires very fine filtration.

It's much easier to breathe through surgical and cloth face masks, which fit more loosely and provide less airflow resistance.  However these are principally designed to protect other people in the presence of the wearer from pathogens that the wearer may be spreading.  When both an infected person and an uninfected person wear this type of mask, the risk to the uninfected person is significantly reduced.  Moreover, the latest guidance from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/masking-science-sars-cov2.html) reports that an uninfected person may indeed receive at least some protection just from wearing this type of mask:

So it appears that when everybody in your vicinity is wearing a face mask, your risk of infection is relatively low and you can (pun intended) breathe more easily even if you're only wearing a surgical or cloth face mask.  However, if there is a possibility you may be in close proximity to an infected person who isn't wearing a mask, a respirator provides a much high level of protection while making breathing more difficult.
The KN95's I have from China do not have a built in respirator.  But they do fit pretty tight.  I bought them directly from China through a camera distributor when the Covid got bad in the early Spring.  Years ago when I was in construction I tried a N95 mask.  I think from 3M corporation. It was impossible for me to use and I threw them out.  I got more air breathing underwater.

I feel the KN95 masks provide better protection from getting infected for me.  So I try to tolerate the breathing.  Basically I use it for short periods like getting a gas fill up, or a Big Mac at a drive through.  I'm running out so will have to switch to cloth soon.  I have a couple of types.  One came with replaceable paper-type filters that slip in and out on the inside of the mask.  I have no idea how much better protection they provide.  Does anyone know? 
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Chris Kern on November 11, 2020, 02:02:45 pm
Anecdotally, passengers on some European airline flights are being asked to remove N95 type masks and were offered the 'blue' surgical masks instead - specifically, as you say, because though the N95 masks protect the wearer, they do little to stop the spread of aerosols should the wearer him/herself be infected.

Assuming the airline or airport personnel know what they are doing, they presumably only are requesting that passengers not wear special-purpose N95 masks with plastic exhaust valves, sold here in the States in home improvement stores as "dust masks."  The one-way valves make exhaling easier and reduce fogging of eyeglasses or industrial goggles; they release unfiltered air into the wearer's environment.  But the N95, KN95, and FFP2 masks without these valves that are sold for protection against the coronavirus don't have exhaust valves and they filter air in both directions.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: James Clark on November 11, 2020, 02:19:20 pm
They are political appointees that are in question.  Fair game and should the election hold for Biden they are gone anyway.

Why do it though?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Manoli on November 11, 2020, 02:48:36 pm
Assuming the airline or airport personnel know what they are doing, they presumably only are requesting that passengers not wear special-purpose N95 masks with plastic exhaust valves, sold here in the States in home improvement stores as "dust masks."  The one-way valves make exhaling easier and reduce fogging of eyeglasses or industrial goggles; they release unfiltered air into the wearer's environment.  But the N95, KN95, and FFP2 masks without these valves that are sold for protection against the coronavirus don't have exhaust valves and they filter air in both directions.

Well, without going into the subtleties of examining each N95 mask (its a decision by the airlines not the personnel) I'm guessing that the decision is /was based on 'keep it simple'. In both the instances I witnessed, it presented no problem as the passengers were offered, free-of-charge, the 'blue 'surgical' masks. All harmonious and polite.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: John Camp on November 11, 2020, 03:22:08 pm
In other news, and this I find to be both amusing and scary at the same time, Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel is now heading up Biden C-19 team. 

If you are wondering why this is scary, well a few years back Ezekiel Emanuel penned a whole article in which he argued people should not live past 75. 

Why I Hope to Die at 75 (https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/10/why-i-hope-to-die-at-75/379329/)

According to him, 75 is the best age to die at and it would be a net positive for society if we just let those over 75 whom "... are no longer remembered as vibrant and engaged but as feeble, ineffectual, even pathetic" (just think of Joe Biden) just die without trying to save them.  We should instead save those resources for younger more vibrant persons. 

He even went so far as to write if you're over 75 "... Flu shots are out. Certainly if there were to be a flu pandemic, a younger person who has yet to live a complete life ought to get the vaccine or any antiviral drugs."

So, Biden just hired someone to oversee a task force for a virus that kills mainly people over 75 who once argued that during a pandemic people over 75 should not get a vaccine because they already lead a complete life.  This is kind of a conflict of interest, don't you think?

Not everybody that Biden hires is going to be smart. That's a stupid article, which makes an assumption -- that everybody hits the wall around 75, which is absurd. There was at least one well-known Wall Street finance guy who was still driving to work when he was 101. I don't know how long he lasted, but why should be lose 25 years of productive life while some 25-year-old junkie gets a pass? And why would Emmanuel assume that we have to ration vaccine? We make millions of doses of flu vaccine annually, and Pfizer says it should be able to produce 1.3 billion doses of vaccine next year. In fact, when I read the article, I sort of assumed that Emmanuel was looking for controversy or maybe just a paycheck. If I were Biden, this kind of thinking would disqualify a candidate for any serious medically related post, not for thinking it, but just for the ammunition it gives to the cranks.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: John Camp on November 11, 2020, 03:26:42 pm
Assuming the airline or airport personnel know what they are doing, they presumably only are requesting that passengers not wear special-purpose N95 masks with plastic exhaust valves, sold here in the States in home improvement stores as "dust masks."  The one-way valves make exhaling easier and reduce fogging of eyeglasses or industrial goggles; they release unfiltered air into the wearer's environment.  But the N95, KN95, and FFP2 masks without these valves that are sold for protection against the coronavirus don't have exhaust valves and they filter air in both directions.

I actually have some of those 3M N95s with valves, that I bought a couple years ago at Home Depot. I'm wondering if they would be as effective as a barrier against exhale infection (that is, me spreading the virus should I become infected) if I put a piece of masking tape over the valve?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: faberryman on November 11, 2020, 03:38:03 pm
Not everybody that Biden hires is going to be smart. That's a stupid article, which makes an assumption -- that everybody hits the wall around 75, which is absurd. There was at least one well-known Wall Street finance guy who was still driving to work when he was 101. I don't know how long he lasted, but why should be lose 25 years of productive life while some 25-year-old junkie gets a pass? And why would Emmanuel assume that we have to ration vaccine? We make millions of doses of flu vaccine annually, and Pfizer says it should be able to produce 1.3 billion doses of vaccine next year. In fact, when I read the article, I sort of assumed that Emmanuel was looking for controversy or maybe just a paycheck. If I were Biden, this kind of thinking would disqualify a candidate for any serious medically related post, not for thinking it, but just for the ammunition it gives to the cranks.

Did you actually read the article?
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: Chris Kern on November 11, 2020, 03:42:06 pm
I actually have some of those 3M N95s with valves, that I bought a couple years ago at Home Depot. I'm wondering if they would be as effective as a barrier against exhale infection (that is, me spreading the virus should I become infected) if I put a piece of masking tape over the valve?

Any answer I could offer would be purely speculative.
Title: Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
Post by: TechTalk on November 11, 2020, 04:00:15 pm
About that postal service guy recanting or not. No need to decide whether he did or didn't. Wait and