Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa

[digitaldog]

Rather than commenting on my evaluation techniques, why don't you address the issue he complained about when it takes over an hour to charge the battery from 10 to 80% while he had to stand in the cold Canadian air?  Why would anyone spend $60,000 on a car and be faced with that kind of torture?

To perhaps a few newcomers to the discussion here, a necessary translation of the above:

"Rather than point out all the multiple misunderstandings I had with regard to this video, and rather than single me out (no need for me to assume as I often do on so many subjects, I know you are addressing me in your comments as the person who posted such egregious interpretations of the video I didn't pay attention to), why don't you agree with me".

[TechTalk]

This is a review of the Ioniq5 in winter conditions in eastern Canada. Someone was asking about winter performance of EVs a couple of days ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJiIjEpky54

It's worth noting that after driving 4,000 km in Canadian winter weather and reviewing all of the positive and negative aspects of the car from his perspective, he bought one. Like everything else in life, there are pluses and minuses and personal priorities to consider. Clearly, he decided that this car meets his needs.

[digitaldog]

It's worth noting that after driving 4,000 km in Canadian winter weather and reviewing all of the positive and negative aspects of the car from his perspective, he bought one. Like everything else in life, there are pluses and minuses and personal priorities to consider. Clearly, he decided that this car meets his needs.

Why would anyone spend $60,000 on a car and be faced with that kind of torture?
Oh wait... That's just another BS opinion on a video misunderstood.

[TechTalk]

Well, just to be clear for those that didn't watch the video... He clearly stated that the prices were in Canadian dollars. So, the price range the reviewer stated is $45,000 CAD (Canadian dollars) which is about $34,900 USD (U.S. dollars) to $60,000 CAD or about $46,549 USD according to the Google machine.

[digitaldog]

Well, just to be clear for those that didn't watch the video... He clearly stated that the prices were in Canadian dollars. So, the price range the reviewer stated is $45,000 CAD (Canadian dollars) which is about $34,900 USD (U.S. dollars) to $60,000 CAD or about $46,549 USD according to the Google machine.

Indeed, clear to anyone paying a lick of attention. Cleary one wasn't.

And this will make you know who's head explode; the 46K and change doesn't count the tax credit. The Ioniq 5 meets the Clean Air Act and other requirements necessary for it to earn a potential Federal EV tax credit of up to $7,500 in rebates for the purchase.

An Ioniq SE with dual motors and all-wheel drive (AWD) begins at $47,140. SEL starts at $45,900 (RWD) or $49,400 (AWD). The top trim, Limited, begins at $50,600 with RWD or $54,500 with AWD. All versions of the 2022 Ioniq 5 are eligible for a federal tax credit of $7,500.

[TechTalk]

Indeed, clear to anyone paying a lick of attention. Cleary one wasn't.

And this will make you know who's head explode; the 46K and change doesn't count the tax credit. The Ioniq 5 meets the Clean Air Act and other requirements necessary for it to earn a potential Federal EV tax credit of up to $7,500 in rebates for the purchase.

An Ioniq SE with dual motors and all-wheel drive (AWD) begins at $47,140. SEL starts at $45,900 (RWD) or $49,400 (AWD). The top trim, Limited, begins at $50,600 with RWD or $54,500 with AWD. All versions of the 2022 Ioniq 5 are eligible for a federal tax credit of $7,500.

Nice! The future of transportation is electric and the future of energy is renewable. Even if it weren't necessary for self preservation due to a warming planet, the need to move away from a resource that took millions of years to produce and which is being used up at an exponentially more rapid rate should be pretty obvious.

https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/petroleum

There are huge quantities of petroleum found under Earth’s surface and in tar pits that bubble to the surface. Petroleum even exists far below the deepest wells that are developed to extract it.

However, petroleum, like coal and natural gas, is a non-renewable source of energy. It took millions of years for it to form, and when it is extracted and consumed, there is no way for us to replace it.

Oil supplies will run out. Eventually, the world will reach “peak oil,” or its highest production level. Some experts predict peak oil could come as soon as 2050. Finding alternatives to petroleum is crucial to global energy use, and is the focus of many industries.

[LesPalenik]

Rather than commenting on my evaluation techniques, why don't you address the issue he complained about when it takes over an hour to charge the battery from 10 to 80% while he had to stand in the cold Canadian air?  Why would anyone spend $60,000 on a car and be faced with that kind of torture?

here is a simple calculator to compare the fuel savings for ICE cars and EVs.
https://www.chargevc.org/ev-calculator/

In addition to the fuel savings, EV is cheaper in maintenance and it will retain also higher resale value.

There is something wrong with that car, charging station or the driver if it takes an hour to charge from 10% to 80%.
Here is a youtube Tesla Model 3 report charging at -7C from 10% to 80% in 37 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwesJPGHIOE

[digitaldog]

here is a simple calculator to compare the fuel savings for ICE cars and EVs.
https://www.chargevc.org/ev-calculator/

Nice, useful.
But do you expect the fellow you replied to, to view or view and understand?
No need to answer. Pretty obvious what comes next....

[Robert Roaldi]

An informative, if somewhat long, pair of videos.  They demonstrate that, while the vehicle is ready for long distance Canadian Winter use, the charging infrastructure isn’t.  Sitting and waiting for slow charging in a parking lot in inclement weather is not acceptable.  Waiting in line for this procedure is even less so.  Charging needs to be as efficient and quick as filling up with gas....

I'm hoping that this may give rise to more pleasant rest stops on highways in the future, since people may be at them a little longer. Seems like an opportunity. Every rest stop I've ever been to just made me want to leave as soon as possible. Why can't I drink my coffee and eat my pastry in a nice comfy chair instead of a plastic sciatic nerve crusher. Why is the public aesthetic to be ugly and uncomfortable instead of being pleasant and restful.

It reminds me of a trip I took to Finland a few decades ago. I needed to exchange currency and dropped into a bank in downtown Helsinki early in the morning. Both the teller and I were seated in nice comfortable chairs, something new to me that made so much sense. Not a difficult concept, really. You can just sense the Calvinist roots in the way we live though. Somehow, we all sort of feel as if making life more pleasant for employees is wrong and will lead to sloth and inefficiency. The mindset lingers: work is "work", it's not supposed to be pleasant!

I get a chuckle when I think about things like this because we keep being told that we live in a service economy. That must be Newspeak, up is down, black is white. Service? Really, where?

[TechTalk]

...There is something wrong with that car, charging station or the driver if it takes an hour to charge from 10% to 80%.
Here is a youtube Tesla Model 3 report charging at -7C from 10% to 80% in 37 minutes...

Nothing wrong with either the driver or the car. Really nothing "wrong" with the charging station except that it wasn't designed to be very fast. The comment in the video was with regard to the 50 kW fast-charge stations from Circuit électrique as shown in the video, not the faster charge stations to be found elsewhere or that will become more common over time.

"Most of the chargers that were on convenient routes to my destinations were only 50 kW fast-chargers. If the IONIQ 5 was at 10%, it would take over an hour to charge back up to 80 on one of those."

The difference in your video is the higher wattage charging station. As your video also shows, the charge rate will decrease as the battery charge level increases due to internal resistance building up in the battery. This is normal with current EV battery and charging technology.

As a side note: Neither a Tesla nor Hyundai will force you to stand in the cold Canadian air while charging.  That's just a case of exaggerating and embellishing a story for a reaction and attention.

You can sit inside the comfort of your car, go have a cup of coffee, or grab lunch at McDonald's as shown in one of the other videos. Actually, dining in comfort while charging the car was a pretty common theme in the IONIQ 5 road trip videos, which makes more sense than standing outside for no reason and freezing.

[TechTalk]

An informative, if somewhat long, pair of videos.  They demonstrate that, while the vehicle is ready for long distance Canadian Winter use, the charging infrastructure isn’t.

Absolutely true and something sure to improve over time. It took a good deal of time to create the current infrastructure that supports the oil burners on the road. It's a shame that as that infrastructure was created, public transportation infrastructure was destroyed and then ignored — at least in the U.S.

[Peter McLennan]

Rather than commenting on my evaluation techniques, why don't you address the issue he complained about when it takes over an hour to charge the battery from 10 to 80% while he had to …

I already did.

[Robert Roaldi]

Thanks for the video links. His most recent video is also worth watching. It's an interesting take on American urban transit planning or lack of it.

https://www.youtube.com/America Always Gets This Wrong (when building transit)

Not just American. With the possible exception of Montreal that has very good public transit, Canadian cities have evolved the same way.

In general we should be more concerned about this that we are. In the inter-city realm, train service is not very good and when Greyhound ceased operating (in Canada) during Covid, it left a lot of people who didn't own cars stranded. At the same time, smaller more affordable cars were jettisoned, and to complete the perfect storm there are long waits for new cars at the moment (8 to 12 months for a Corolla Hybrid). In Canada, EV models all cost more than $40,000 and we have effectively outlawed cheaper smaller limited-speed urban EV alternatives that are available elsewhere in the world.

Someone above described the very high $60,000 CAN price of a specific EV model, but whenever I try to find parking at my grocery store I'm surrounded by huge pick-up trucks that all cost $60,000 and up. And I can tell by how spotless they are that these are personal family transport, not commercial vehicles. And I keep seeing videos about large EV trucks whose prices are greater than $100,000, which used to be exotic car territory.

[Robert Roaldi]

In the original Freakonomics book, a controversial claim was made that the then drop in crime in the US was due to an increase in abortions after Roe vs Wade. Is the United States about to run that experiment in reverse?

[PeterAit]

Rather than commenting on my evaluation techniques, why don't you address the issue he complained about when it takes over an hour to charge the battery from 10 to 80% while he had to stand in the cold Canadian air?  Why would anyone spend $60,000 on a car and be faced with that kind of torture?

No offense but he sounds like an idiot. In every EV I know about, you can sit in the car while charging, run the heat or AC as needed, listen to the radio, and watch movies on the car's screen streamed from your phone.

[digitaldog]

No offense but he sounds like an idiot. In every EV I know about, you can sit in the car while charging, run the heat or AC as needed, listen to the radio, and watch movies on the car's screen streamed from your phone.

More evidence Alan didn't pay any attention to the video; the guy in the video showed how he camped in the back and how one can disable power to much of the car but keep its heat/cooling operating while doing so.
So it's kind of clear who the idiot is. Why would anyone here be faced with that kind of torture? 

[Alan Klein]

It's worth noting that after driving 4,000 km in Canadian winter weather and reviewing all of the positive and negative aspects of the car from his perspective, he bought one. Like everything else in life, there are pluses and minuses and personal priorities to consider. Clearly, he decided that this car meets his needs.

Yes but he said that it wouldn't be used for long trips but rather used locally only so he could always charge it overnight at home.  That's pretty much what I said,  that an EV would be good as a second car for local use keeping an ICE vehicle for the longer trips.   

[Alan Klein]

Well, just to be clear for those that didn't watch the video... He clearly stated that the prices were in Canadian dollars. So, the price range the reviewer stated is $45,000 CAD (Canadian dollars) which is about $34,900 USD (U.S. dollars) to $60,000 CAD or about $46,549 USD according to the Google machine.

He stated that the car he tested was the fully-loaded $60,000 model.  ($US$46,000) 

[Alan Klein]

Nice! The future of transportation is electric and the future of energy is renewable. Even if it weren't necessary for self preservation due to a warming planet, the need to move away from a resource that took millions of years to produce and which is being used up at an exponentially more rapid rate should be pretty obvious.

https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/petroleum

There are huge quantities of petroleum found under Earth’s surface and in tar pits that bubble to the surface. Petroleum even exists far below the deepest wells that are developed to extract it.

However, petroleum, like coal and natural gas, is a non-renewable source of energy. It took millions of years for it to form, and when it is extracted and consumed, there is no way for us to replace it.

Oil supplies will run out. Eventually, the world will reach “peak oil,” or its highest production level. Some experts predict peak oil could come as soon as 2050. Finding alternatives to petroleum is crucial to global energy use, and is the focus of many industries.

I don't think it's fair that poorer taxpayers should subsidize richer ones when they purchase a vehicle.  Also, since manufacturers know the buyer is getting a discount, they raise their prices higher than supply and demand would dictate and just make extra profits for themselves.  But for the rebate, they would have to lower their prices. 

[Alan Klein]

here is a simple calculator to compare the fuel savings for ICE cars and EVs.
https://www.chargevc.org/ev-calculator/

In addition to the fuel savings, EV is cheaper in maintenance and it will retain also higher resale value.

There is something wrong with that car, charging station or the driver if it takes an hour to charge from 10% to 80%.
Here is a youtube Tesla Model 3 report charging at -7C from 10% to 80% in 37 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwesJPGHIOE

Les, I recall that the tester said that the charging stations he had to use were not the best giving only 50 or 75 outputs.  So that may account for the longer charge times.  But that's part of the problem today.  The chargers are not up to snuff.  I think it's going to take a few years for them to be available everywhere and work at maximum charge.  For longer-distance users of EVs, it's a turnoff currently.