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Author Topic: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa  (Read 298555 times)

digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #13680 on: January 19, 2022, 10:10:40 pm »

Really? Biden is "greenlighting" the invasion? Please.
"If an idiot were to tell you the same story every day for a year, you would end by believing it." -Horace Mann
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LesPalenik

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #13681 on: January 20, 2022, 04:11:30 am »

Really? Biden is "greenlighting" the invasion? Please.

According to CNN, "greenlighting" was the term used by "shocked" Ukrainian officials after hearing Biden's speech. It reminds me of Chamberlain's appeasement solution in 1938. Hopefully it won't come to that.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2022/01/19/ukraine-reax-biden-presser-lead-chance-vpx.cnn
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #13682 on: January 20, 2022, 07:44:43 am »

According to CNN, "greenlighting" was the term used by "shocked" Ukrainian officials after hearing Biden's speech. It reminds me of Chamberlain's appeasement solution in 1938. Hopefully it won't come to that.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2022/01/19/ukraine-reax-biden-presser-lead-chance-vpx.cnn
Biden also acknowledged that NATO countries are divided on what to do.  My guess that is because of the gas pipeline to Russia that many NATO countries now depend on.  That need is cooling off opposition by those countries to Russia,  This is why Trump and presidents before him were against the German-Russian pipeline deal.  Biden OK'd the pipeline, another mistake.  This is going to encourage others to test America not only the Russians. Maybe China can just steal a bit of Taiwan too.

On the other hand, I question whether we should be the ones leading anyway.  Why isn't Europe taking the lead?  It's in their back yard.  Don't they care about the Russians?  Why does America have to be the policeman every time?  We're broke.  We've bled enough for Europe.

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #13683 on: January 20, 2022, 07:48:48 am »

Does Canada allow non-citizens to vote? No.  Yet in NYC, they're going to allow non-citizens to vote.  This is what the Democrats in Congress want to do across the entire country in all elections, not just local like in NYC - to secure complete power in all future elections. This is why Biden opened up the southern border.  To let in people who will vote for the democrats to secure their power.   You Canadians don't do that so why do you want us to do it? In fact, your rules are more restrictive than what republicans want to do to secure fair elections here.  You require voters to be pre-registered.  The Democrats want open elections where you just show up and vote.  You'll also be able to send ballots in after the election day, everything to finagle the vote. You want America to do what you Canadians won't do.

Noncitizens’ Right to Vote Becomes Law in New York City
Starting next year, 800,000 legal permanent residents will be eligible to vote in municipal elections.

Mayor Eric Adams, setting aside prior misgivings, allowed a bill to become law on Sunday that would grant more than 800,000 noncitizens the right to vote in municipal elections.

“I believe that New Yorkers should have a say in their government, which is why I have and will continue to support this important legislation,” the mayor said in a statement.

“I look forward to bringing millions more into the democratic process,” he added.

The measure applies to legal residents, including those with green cards, and so-called Dreamers who were brought to the country illegally as children but were allowed to remain under a federal program known as DACA. Although the City Council approved the bill last month, New York law provides the mayor the opportunity to veto it within 30 days. Without any action, the bill passes into law automatically, as happened with this measure.

Because of the new law, an estimated 808,000 adults will be eligible to vote beginning Jan. 9, 2023, according to the City Council. They will be able to vote in primary and general elections for citywide contests, like those for mayor and public advocate, as well as in local races, like those for City Council and borough presidents. The law does not allow noncitizens to vote in state or federal elections.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/09/nyregion/noncitizens-nyc-voting-rights.html

Who Can Vote in Canadian Elections?
To vote in a Canadian federal election, you must be a Canadian citizen and be 18 or older on election day.

The names of most eligible voters in Canada will appear on the National Register of Electors. This is a database of basic information drawn from various federal and provincial sources, including the Canada Revenue Agency, provinces' and territories' motor vehicle registries, and the Citizenship and Immigration Canada department.

The National Register of Electors is used to prepare the preliminary list of electors for Canadian federal elections. If you want to vote in Canada and you're not on the list, you have to get on the list or be able to demonstrate your eligibility through other qualifying documentation.

https://www.thoughtco.com/who-can-vote-in-canadian-elections-510183

So far as I know, non-citizens have to pay taxes. In a sense that gives them some right to decide how those taxes are spent, doesn't it?

In another response on this thread, you asked an important question, "Who owns the country?". Good question. If someone has been living in it for x years, works, pay taxes, don't they "own" it to some extent, assuming we even know what the concept of "owning a country" means. Some people in the USA would say that the country is white and Christian, does that make any sense? When did it cease to be owned by the aboriginals who were living here when Europeans showed up?
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #13684 on: January 20, 2022, 07:53:43 am »

...
On the other hand, I question whether we should be the ones leading anyway.  Why isn't Europe taking the lead?  ...

Maybe they are. But maybe you don't like what they have decided to do. I hate to remind you, but it was Trump who was buddies with Putin and took his word over his own intelligence agencies.

It seems to me that you are attributing a lot of behaviour based on a pipeline. You may be right. It would be interesting to count up all the places on earth that have been screwed over because of some other country's resource interests.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #13685 on: January 20, 2022, 08:15:23 am »

The Democrats attempt to do away with the filibuster failed.  It's a blessing in disguise for them as well.  What goes around comes around.  If they did away with it, someday they'll be on the losing end of a vote when they wish they had the filibuster rule to be there and protect them.  You think they would have learned from when they did away with it for selections of federal justices.  Taking the lead, Republicans did away with it then in response to jam through Supreme Court justices selected by republicans. 

This design to end the filibuster is due to Democrat Senate Leader Schumer worried about losing his position if the Senate flips.  He's desperate to get the voting rights law passed to finagle the vote and keep the Senate democratic. The argument about voting rights is just a fig leaf to cover their real intentions.

Voting bill collapses, Democrats unable to change filibuster
https://apnews.com/article/voting-rights-joe-biden-kyrsten-sinema-elections-voting-f6c2cfd9f79a1658c2998f3b7b14588d

https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/04/politics/harry-reid-legacy-filibuster/index.html

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #13686 on: January 20, 2022, 08:20:25 am »

So far as I know, non-citizens have to pay taxes. In a sense that gives them some right to decide how those taxes are spent, doesn't it?

In another response on this thread, you asked an important question, "Who owns the country?". Good question. If someone has been living in it for x years, works, pay taxes, don't they "own" it to some extent, assuming we even know what the concept of "owning a country" means. Some people in the USA would say that the country is white and Christian, does that make any sense? When did it cease to be owned by the aboriginals who were living here when Europeans showed up?
Canadians have the good sense not to give non-citizens the right to vote.  If it's good enough for you, then it should be good enough for us. How can you argue that we should do something that you're not willing to do in your own country? 

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #13687 on: January 20, 2022, 08:31:40 am »

Maybe they are. But maybe you don't like what they have decided to do. I hate to remind you, but it was Trump who was buddies with Putin and took his word over his own intelligence agencies.

It seems to me that you are attributing a lot of behaviour based on a pipeline. You may be right. It would be interesting to count up all the places on earth that have been screwed over because of some other country's resource interests.
Your comment regarding Trump is a strawman and has nothing to do with this issue.  The fact is he was the one who told Germany not to do the Nord Stream 2 pipeline, that it would weaken them in dealing with the Russians. .  So here we are, barely months from Biden approving it that it's become the issue we warned about.  The question is, if Europeans aren't interested in stopping Russia, why should we take the lead?  It's their backyard.  Let them live with decision and their pipeline and work it out themselves.  Apparently, Germany cares more about gas than they do about Ukrainians. 

Canada is going to get dragged into this as a NATO country.  Do you want to risk Canadian lives battling Russian tanks when the key European countries could care less?

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #13688 on: January 20, 2022, 10:03:24 am »

Canadians have the good sense not to give non-citizens the right to vote.  If it's good enough for you, then it should be good enough for us. How can you argue that we should do something that you're not willing to do in your own country?

Stop "leading the witness", I made no such claim. I'm asking a question about how to approach the topic and suggesting that it may not be as simple as you'd like to think.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #13689 on: January 20, 2022, 10:14:11 am »

Stop "leading the witness", I made no such claim. I'm asking a question about how to approach the topic and suggesting that it may not be as simple as you'd like to think.
I'm not leading the witness.   I'm just asking why what's good for Canadians isn't good for Americans?   You don't let non-citizens vote.  Why should we allow them to vote in our country? It's a question of loyalty, I feel.  Would you want me to vote in your country? :)

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #13690 on: January 20, 2022, 10:15:06 am »

Your comment regarding Trump is a strawman and has nothing to do with this issue.  The fact is he was the one who told Germany not to do the Nord Stream 2 pipeline, that it would weaken them in dealing with the Russians. .  So here we are, barely months from Biden approving it that it's become the issue we warned about.  The question is, if Europeans aren't interested in stopping Russia, why should we take the lead?  It's their backyard.  Let them live with decision and their pipeline and work it out themselves.  Apparently, Germany cares more about gas than they do about Ukrainians. 

Canada is going to get dragged into this as a NATO country.  Do you want to risk Canadian lives battling Russian tanks when the key European countries could care less?

First, your statement that "European countries could care less" is simple-minded nonsense. Nobody, especially Canada is going to go to war against Russia if the Europeans don't themselves. Honestly, how do you dream this "bar talk" up?

And I don't understand what you mean by Biden approving the pipeline? What does the US have to do with what Europe negotiates with Russia?

But there's another aspect here. As bad as we think/know Russia is, the fact that some countries still want to deal with them, to your displeasure, might mean that they might not view the USA as benign a friend as much as they used to. Don't you think that Trump had something to do with that change? If I may say so, you seem to argue from the point of view that everything that goes on in the world should be to the benefit of the US and anything that isn't is bad by definition. Even you should realize that US foreign involvement has not always been benign or beneficial to other participants. At this point, you're probably going to bring up WW2 again, but that was close to a century ago now and a lot has happened since then.

Maybe some countries don't trust the US as much as you think they should? Why would that be.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #13691 on: January 20, 2022, 10:18:15 am »

I'm not leading the witness.   I'm just asking why what's good for Canadians isn't good for Americans?   You don't let non-citizens vote.  Why should we allow them to vote in our country? It's a question of loyalty, I feel.  Would you want me to vote in your country? :)

I'm out and I regret taking part.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #13692 on: January 20, 2022, 10:35:04 am »

First, your statement that "European countries could care less" is simple-minded nonsense. Nobody, especially Canada is going to go to war against Russia if the Europeans don't themselves. Honestly, how do you dream this "bar talk" up?

And I don't understand what you mean by Biden approving the pipeline? What does the US have to do with what Europe negotiates with Russia?

But there's another aspect here. As bad as we think/know Russia is, the fact that some countries still want to deal with them, to your displeasure, might mean that they might not view the USA as benign a friend as much as they used to. Don't you think that Trump had something to do with that change? If I may say so, you seem to argue from the point of view that everything that goes on in the world should be to the benefit of the US and anything that isn't is bad by definition. Even you should realize that US foreign involvement has not always been benign or beneficial to other participants. At this point, you're probably going to bring up WW2 again, but that was close to a century ago now and a lot has happened since then.

Maybe some countries don't trust the US as much as you think they should? Why would that be.
NATO is a security organization of common defense interests, not just America's.  It was formed to defend Europe against Russian (Soviet) influence, communism, and expansion into the west.   Maybe it's time has passed. 

In the meanwhile, the issue with the pipeline is a NATO not just an American problem.  Germany making a deal with Russia put NATO in a bad situation in trying to negotiate security arrangements and stopping possible Russian invasion into Ukraine.  The pipeline weakens NATO's strength and resolve.  That's why America was concerned about the pipeline in the first place.  So because of it, we now can't take a united front against Russia trying to impose it's will on the Ukraine, possibly invading as it did the Crimea.  Germany might be pressing NATO to not go so far because they don't want to risk a natural gas cutoff especially in the middle of winter heating season.  That could encourage Russia to move since it will feel we won't do anything fearing their cutoff of the natural gas.

My feelings are if Russia grabs some Ukrainian territory, we should let Germany and the rest of Europe figure out how to deal with it.  It's their problem especially if they want to place trade over security.  In that sense, you're right it's none of America's business.

Peter McLennan

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #13693 on: January 20, 2022, 10:38:12 am »

I'm out and I regret taking part.

It is pointless.

At first it was at least entertaining.  No longer.  It’s disappointing and disillusioning.

Oh, and depressing.  Did I mention depressing?  There are millions of them.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2022, 10:45:17 am by Peter McLennan »
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PeterAit

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #13694 on: January 20, 2022, 10:50:57 am »

the reason is little election fraud now is because we have rules that it's criminal to do certain things. The Democrats in Congress want to do away with those rules to make finagling legal. That's the problem.

Well, you are right in that the election rules we have had for ages have been successful at preventing any non-trivial fraud. No one is proposing to do away with them.  What the GOP wants is to add new rules and procedures with the blatantly obvious purpose of reducing the votes of likely Dem supporters. The voting rights bill currently stalled in Congress is just that, a rights bill, that will prevent the states from enacting such things. But the GOP senators are in lock-step against it.
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Peter

"You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts" -- D.P. Moynihan

PeterAit

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #13695 on: January 20, 2022, 11:04:39 am »

Biden also acknowledged that NATO countries are divided on what to do.  My guess that is because of the gas pipeline to Russia that many NATO countries now depend on.  That need is cooling off opposition by those countries to Russia,  This is why Trump and presidents before him were against the German-Russian pipeline deal.  Biden OK'd the pipeline, another mistake.  This is going to encourage others to test America not only the Russians. Maybe China can just steal a bit of Taiwan too.


You should not scold Germany and other European countries for trying to "go green" and then complain that their dependence on Russian natural gas is a big problem.
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Peter

"You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts" -- D.P. Moynihan

PeterAit

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #13696 on: January 20, 2022, 11:26:50 am »

I'm not leading the witness.   I'm just asking why what's good for Canadians isn't good for Americans?   

Cool! Awesome! Alan is in favor of socialized medicine!!
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Peter

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digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #13697 on: January 20, 2022, 12:14:28 pm »

Well, you are right in that the election rules we have had for ages have been successful at preventing any non-trivial fraud. No one is proposing to do away with them.  What the GOP wants is to add new rules and procedures with the blatantly obvious purpose of reducing the votes of likely Dem supporters. The voting rights bill currently stalled in Congress is just that, a rights bill, that will prevent the states from enacting such things. But the GOP senators are in lock-step against it.
Trying to explain the facts of what the GOP is trying to do, to a GOP'er with a closed mind to facts is as you'll see (or have seen) pointless. This isn't the mindset you may hope it is:
When the Facts Change, I Change My Mind. What Do You Do, Sir?” John Maynard Keynes
The answer: continue to jerk the knee and post here.  :-\
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #13698 on: January 20, 2022, 02:13:36 pm »

Here's some mildly good news that's a few days old now. Maybe not all Republicans are insane after all, https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/18/politics/trump-administration-officials-against-former-boss-2022/index.html, as some seem to be working to rid themselves of the anti-democratic legacy of the previous kleptocracy. :)
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #13699 on: January 20, 2022, 02:38:17 pm »

Here's some mildly good news that's a few days old now. Maybe not all Republicans are insane after all, https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/18/politics/trump-administration-officials-against-former-boss-2022/index.html, as some seem to be working to rid themselves of the anti-democratic legacy of the previous kleptocracy. :)


Here's some more moderately good news:  "The Message in the Polls: Trump's Done" 

Consider the source: Ann Coulter!

https://townhall.com/columnists/anncoulter/2022/01/19/the-message-in-the-polls-trumps-done-n2602080
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