Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa

[Alan Klein]

Quality is in the eye of the beholder. Tesla appeals to people who like the minimalistic look, quick acceleration and farting sounds.
Nowadays, I like cars with comfy seats, ease of getting in and out, big trunk and a good overall visibility.

Me too. 

[Robert Roaldi]

All manufacturers have had recalls.

The price of EVs, as with most consumer goods, is primarily determined by production volumes. Not too long ago, people were claiming that "full-frame" sensor cameras would never be mainstream. The price of the Nissan Leaf has dropped by $7000 for the 2022 model year. Canadian prices of full EVs are all in the mid $40,000 range, as was Nissan Leaf up to now. We'll start seeing more and more of this kind of price dropping, just a matter of time. My limited reading of the warranties suggests that the batteries are being guaranteed for 8 years. The electrical side of hybrids and plug-in hybrids are also being guaranteed for 8 years. The Toyota Prius has an extremely good rep for reliability. Up till recently, the decision to go electric was based partly personal values, I would guess, but more and more the pros/cons of e-power will just be another factor to take into account. That is, they are no longer a novelty, in N.A. anyway, I think they had already reached that status elsewhere in the world. They will be good for some, less so for others, like everything else.

I think there should be a market for very inexpensive small EVs, $10,000 to $15,000, with very limited range, say 100-150 km per charge, for use as urban grocery-getters for people who no not need a car for all their daily uses. This usage doesn't fit everyone, but it doesn't have to.

[James Clark]

All manufacturers have had recalls.

The price of EVs, as with most consumer goods, is primarily determined by production volumes. Not too long ago, people were claiming that "full-frame" sensor cameras would never be mainstream. The price of the Nissan Leaf has dropped by $7000 for the 2022 model year. Canadian prices of full EVs are all in the mid $40,000 range, as was Nissan Leaf up to now. We'll start seeing more and more of this kind of price dropping, just a matter of time. My limited reading of the warranties suggests that the batteries are being guaranteed for 8 years. The electrical side of hybrids and plug-in hybrids are also being guaranteed for 8 years. The Toyota Prius has an extremely good rep for reliability. Up till recently, the decision to go electric was based partly personal values, I would guess, but more and more the pros/cons of e-power will just be another factor to take into account. That is, they are no longer a novelty, in N.A. anyway, I think they had already reached that status elsewhere in the world. They will be good for some, less so for others, like everything else.

I think there should be a market for very inexpensive small EVs, $10,000 to $15,000, with very limited range, say 100-150 km per charge, for use as urban grocery-getters for people who no not need a car for all their daily uses. This usage doesn't fit everyone, but it doesn't have to.

We have a Mini SE - full electric, gets about 100 miles (160km) of around-town driving on a full charge.  It's more than enough for what we need as a second car, even here in Texas where things are largely spread out.  Maybe in a sense that's better, actually, since we're probably either staying within 30 miles of home, or traveling to the next city over (San Antonio, about 75 miles each way, or Houston 160 each way) in which case we use the dino juice.

[Alan Klein]

All manufacturers have had recalls.

The price of EVs, as with most consumer goods, is primarily determined by production volumes. Not too long ago, people were claiming that "full-frame" sensor cameras would never be mainstream. The price of the Nissan Leaf has dropped by $7000 for the 2022 model year. Canadian prices of full EVs are all in the mid $40,000 range, as was Nissan Leaf up to now. We'll start seeing more and more of this kind of price dropping, just a matter of time. My limited reading of the warranties suggests that the batteries are being guaranteed for 8 years. The electrical side of hybrids and plug-in hybrids are also being guaranteed for 8 years. The Toyota Prius has an extremely good rep for reliability. Up till recently, the decision to go electric was based partly personal values, I would guess, but more and more the pros/cons of e-power will just be another factor to take into account. That is, they are no longer a novelty, in N.A. anyway, I think they had already reached that status elsewhere in the world. They will be good for some, less so for others, like everything else.

I think there should be a market for very inexpensive small EVs, $10,000 to $15,000, with very limited range, say 100-150 km per charge, for use as urban grocery-getters for people who no not need a car for all their daily uses. This usage doesn't fit everyone, but it doesn't have to.

8-year guarantee doesn't help much as I believe you have to replace the battery at ten years which costs a lot.  That brings down the resale price.

I drove a Prius on and off that belonged to the NYC government which I worked for.  It was great in city traffic, fun to drive, and allowed me to park everywhere at no cost because it had NYC government plates. But it had few "classy" features such as your find in a gasoline-powered car of the same cost. 

Is anyone making a $10K-$15K EV?  An EV bicycle maybe?

[LesPalenik]

Is anyone making a $10K-$15K EV?  An EV bicycle maybe?

In China, they make several cheap EVs under $15K. They also make 2-seater trikes under $4,000.
The Hong Guang Mini EV is the most succesful model selling for $4,500USD. The manufacturer doesn't make any profit on the car, but gets a substantial credit to make the manufacturing viable.

The Hong Guang Mini EV is being built as part of a joint venture with US car giant General Motors (GM).
Last month sales of the budget electric car in China were around double those of Tesla, which was questioned this month over safety issues there.
While the $4,500 Hong Guang Mini is the most popular model, there is an upgraded one with air conditioning for just over $5,000. The cars are being marketed as "the people's commuting tool".

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56178802

[Alan Klein]

In China, they make several cheap EVs under $15K. They also make 2-seater trikes under $4,000.
The Hong Guang Mini EV is the most succesful model selling for $4,500USD. The manufacturer doesn't make any profit on the car, but gets a substantial credit to make the manufacturing viable.



https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56178802

Looks like it has the quality of a Yugo.  Honestly, would you buy a Chinese car costing $4500?   

[LesPalenik]

Looks like it has the quality of a Yugo.  Honestly, would you buy a Chinese car costing $4500?   

I would have to test drive it first. For that money, I would buy a small 3 or 4 wheel vehicle and use it for getting groceries and driving to the doctor and barber. Wouldn't work for going on dates.
 

[Alan Klein]

I would have to test drive it first. For that money, I would buy a small 3 or 4 wheel vehicle and use it for getting groceries and driving to the doctor and barber. Wouldn't work for going on dates.
 

My wife would make me drive it and she'd keep the real car for herself to drive.  I'd rather stop getting haircuts.

[PeterAit]

Musk reminds me of Howard Hughes. Eccentric and a little nuts.

And a monstrous ego.

[LesPalenik]

More importantly,

- Entrepreneurial Spirit
- Passion for Innovation
- Positive Energy
- Strategic Direction
- High IQ
- Personal Integrity/Influence
- Incredible Accomplishments (Paypal, Tesla, Spacex, Neuralink, Boring Company, Starlink)

[TechTalk]

All admirable characteristics, none of which provides immunity to criticism. There are many people who I admire for their accomplishments; but for whom, I also have some criticism.

Allowing one's ego to run out of control can result in saying things which range from silly to harmful. This is particularly true when he has ventured outside of his areas of expertise and ventured into giving medical advice. Just one example is linked below which discusses his medical ventilator statements. A subject in which he lacks training, experience, and knowledge; but about which he felt compelled to render public statements.

You may not want watch the entire video, so I set this to skip the opening commentary. You may not want to watch it at all. The last 4-1/2 minutes some people should watch, as it touches on the topic of scientific uncertainty in medicine.

https://youtu.be/The Great Ventilator Fiasco of COVID19

[LesPalenik]

Allowing one's ego to run out of control can result in saying things which range from silly to harmful. This is particularly true when he has ventured outside of his areas of expertise and ventured into giving medical advice.

Trump had even greater ego, dispensed a lot of harmful medical advice and he is still on the loose.

[TechTalk]

I completely agree with you.

[TechTalk]

I would have to test drive it first. For that money, I would buy a small 3 or 4 wheel vehicle and use it for getting groceries and driving to the doctor and barber. Wouldn't work for going on dates.

The Citroën AMI electric is unique in a typical Citroën kind of way. In France anyone age 14 or above can drive it on the streets as it is classified as a quadricycle. It sells for about €6,000 or can be rented on a monthly basis cheap! It's also available thru car share services.

The front and rear body panels are identical; the only difference being the lights installed. The two doors are also identical, which means they open in different directions depending on which side of the car they're mounted. It's city driving only with a top speed of 28 mph and a range of 43 miles. It's gradually spreading outside of France and nearby countries as a general purpose and practical urban electric vehicle.

There are lots of videos, articles, and reviews online. They seem mostly very positive about it being what it is designed to be and doing it cleverly. Here's a brief overview video from Engadget.

https://www.youtube.com/Citroen Ami: An adorable ultra-compact EV

The most comfortable car I've ever ridden in is a classic Citroën DS. Their current e-C4 gets consistently great reviews for design, styling, and comfort. Unfortunately, they've been out of the North American market for decades.

[chez]

Looks like it has the quality of a Yugo.  Honestly, would you buy a Chinese car costing $4500?   

So if they raised the price to $45,000...you'd be a buyer?

[Manoli]

The most comfortable car I've ever ridden in is a classic Citroën DS.

A unique car and I suspect the only one that could also travel on 3 wheels. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7AijogHtRc).
Not to forget that other long deceased marvel, the Citroen 2CV - the only car that was impossible to ‘roll’ other than travelling at full speed in reverse then flinging it in the sharpest full-lock turn possible! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTE4Y_mDM50)

[LesPalenik]

The Citroën AMI electric is unique in a typical Citroën kind of way. In France anyone age 14 or above can drive it on the streets as it is classified as a quadricycle. It sells for about €6,000 or can be rented on a monthly basis cheap! It's also available thru car share services.

The front and rear body panels are identical; the only difference being the lights installed. The two doors are also identical, which means they open in different directions depending on which side of the car they're mounted. It's city driving only with a top speed of 28 mph and a range of 43 miles. It's gradually spreading outside of France and nearby countries as a general purpose and practical urban electric vehicle.

There are lots of videos, articles, and reviews online. They seem mostly very positive about it being what it is designed to be and doing it cleverly. Here's a brief overview video from Engadget.

https://www.youtube.com/Citroen Ami: An adorable ultra-compact EV

The most comfortable car I've ever ridden in is a classic Citroën DS. Their current e-C4 gets consistently great reviews for design, styling, and comfort. Unfortunately, they've been out of the North American market for decades.

Cute car. Great that Citroen plans to bring it to North America.
I always liked Citroen for their innovative designs. And as you say, they are also very comfortable. I drove the DS model for short time in the 70's, and also the 2CV which took me through half of Europe. At that time, I paid less than a third of the price of AMI for a second hand 2CV, which had twice as many horses, and with a tail wind it reached 100kmh.

[Robert Roaldi]

An interesting lead photo in this BBC article about immigrant children being held in detention in Texas, https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-56595930.

[Robert Roaldi]

All admirable characteristics, none of which provides immunity to criticism. There are many people who I admire for their accomplishments; but for whom, I also have some criticism.

Allowing one's ego to run out of control can result in saying things which range from silly to harmful. This is particularly true when he has ventured outside of his areas of expertise and ventured into giving medical advice. Just one example is linked below which discusses his medical ventilator statements. A subject in which he lacks training, experience, and knowledge; but about which he felt compelled to render public statements.

Too true. Successful people are successful at the things they are successful at, if that isn't too much of a platitude. There's no reason to assume they are good at other things. Now it might turn out that they are good at some other things, but the onus is on them to prove that. Hero worship serves no purpose.

[Robert Roaldi]

Turns out the Arizona vote wasn't rigged, https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/573894-the-memo-trumps-arizona-embarrassment-sharpens-questions-for-gop. Gosh.