Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa

[TechTalk]

The Western civilization won't collapse although American democracy may. A grown-up man is acting like a spoiled 5 year old. Sadly, he has some fans who support such a behaviour.

How will American democracy collapse? We listened to Hillary Clinton complain for four years how she was robbed of the presidency yet we're all still here.

Hillary Clinton concession speech:

Last night, I congratulated Donald Trump and offered to work with him on behalf of our country. I hope that he will be a successful president for all Americans. This is not the outcome we wanted or we worked so hard for and I’m sorry that we did not win this election for the values we share and the vision we hold for our country.

I know how disappointed you feel because I feel it too, and so do tens of millions of Americans who invested their hopes and dreams in this effort. This is painful and it will be for a long time, but I want you to remember this. Our campaign was never about one person or even one election, it was about the country we love and about building an America that’s hopeful, inclusive and big-hearted.

We have seen that our nation is more deeply divided than we thought. But I still believe in America and I always will. And if you do, then we must accept this result and then look to the future. Donald Trump is going to be our president. We owe him an open mind and the chance to lead.

Our constitutional democracy enshrines the peaceful transfer of power and we don’t just respect that, we cherish it. It also enshrines other things; the rule of law, the principle that we are all equal in rights and dignity, freedom of worship and expression. We respect and cherish these values too and we must defend them.


Donald Trump Today:

if Mike Pence does the right thing, we win the election. All he has to do. This is from the number one or certainly one of the top constitutional lawyers in our country. He has the absolute right to do it. We’re supposed to protect our country, support our country, support our constitution, and protect our constitution. States want to revote. The States got defrauded. They were given false information. They voted on it. Now they want to recertify. They want it back. All Vice-President Pence has to do is send it back to the States to re-certify, and we become president, and you are the happiest people.

...then we’re stuck with a president who lost the election by a lot, and we have to live with that for four more years. We’re just not going to let that happen.

They talk about our elections. You know what the world says about us now? They said we don’t have free and fair elections and you know what else? We don’t have a free and fair press.

Our media is not free. It’s not fair. It suppresses thought. It suppresses speech, and it’s become the enemy of the people. It’s become the enemy of the people. It’s the biggest problem we have in this country.

We’re going to have to fight much harder and Mike Pence is going to have to come through for us. If he doesn’t, that will be a sad day for our country because you’re sworn to uphold our constitution. Now it is up to Congress to confront this egregious assault on our democracy. After this, we’re going to walk down and I’ll be there with you. We’re going to walk down... We’re going walk down to the Capitol, and we’re going to cheer on our brave senators, and congressmen and women. We’re probably not going to be cheering so much for some of them because you’ll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength, and you have to be strong.

As you know the media is constantly asserted the outrageous lie that there was no evidence of widespread fraud. You ever see these people? “While there is no evidence of fraud…” Oh, really? Well, I’m going to read you pages. I hope you don’t get bored listening to it. Promise? Don’t get bored listening to it, all those hundreds of thousands of people back there.  Move them up, please... The American people do not believe the corrupt fake news anymore. They have ruined their reputation.

Look, I’m not happy with the Supreme Court. They love to rule against me. I picked three people. I fought like hell for them... We got him through. And you know what? They couldn’t give a damn. They couldn’t give a damn. Let them rule the right way, but it almost seems that they’re all going out of their way to hurt all of us, and to hurt our country. To hurt our country.

You will have a president who lost all of these states, or you will have a president to put it another way, who was voted on by a bunch of stupid people who lost all of these things. You will have an illegitimate president, that’s what you’ll have. And we can’t let that happen.

And they don’t realize that that’s going to be the end of the Republican party as we know it, but it’s never going to be the end of us, never. Let them get out. Let the weak ones get out. This is a time for strength. They also want to indoctrinate your children in school by teaching them things that aren’t so. They want to indoctrinate your children. It’s all part of the comprehensive assault on our democracy and the American people to finally standing up and saying, “No.” This crowd is again a testament to it...

And we got to get rid of the weak congresspeople, the ones that aren’t any good, the Liz Cheneys of the world, we got to get rid of them. We got to get rid of them...

So when you hear, when you hear, “While there is no evidence to prove any wrongdoing,” this is the most fraudulent thing anybody’s… This is a criminal enterprise.

They said, “It’s not American to challenge the election.” This is the most corrupt election in the history, maybe of the world... In fact, it’s so egregious, it’s so bad, that a lot of people don’t even believe it. It’s so crazy that people don’t even believe it. It can’t be true. So they don’t believe it. This is not just a matter of domestic politics, this is a matter of national security...

If we allow this group of people to illegally take over our country, because it’s illegal when the votes are illegal, when the way they got there is illegal, when the States that vote are given false and fraudulent information...

“Something’s wrong here. Something’s really wrong. Can’t have happened.” And we fight. We fight like Hell and if you don’t fight like Hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore...

So we’re going to, we’re going to walk down Pennsylvania Avenue, I love Pennsylvania Avenue, and we’re going to the Capitol and we’re going to try and give… The Democrats are hopeless. They’re never voting for anything, not even one vote. But we’re going to try and give our Republicans, the weak ones, because the strong ones don’t need any of our help, we’re going to try and give them the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country. So let’s walk down Pennsylvania Avenue.

[TechTalk]

, but throw it out there anyway. What's your point?

Again, what's your point if you don't offer any context?

That's not context, that's assertions and jumping to conclusions. Who was this woman, what did she do, who was the attacker(s), what was the attacker(s) doing? Don't jump to conclusions if you don't have or don't tell all context that's crucial to forming a balanced opinion. But then again, this thread is full of baloney so nothing new here.

The article says among other things: "More information on the shooting was not immediately available and a police spokesperson said additional details will come later." But jump to conclusions anyway, right?

Apologize for what? Cautioning against jumping to conclusions?

If so, why post your comment in the first place?

At what point do you begin just barking at the moon?

[Chris Kern]

The guards at the Capitol handled it very well. The amount of casualties is low, could have been much worse.

Indeed.  Their primary responsibility during an incident of civil disorder within their limited jurisdiction, such as today's, is to protect the members of Congress, which they did.  My impression, as a longtime resident of Washington, is that unlike some of the other agencies that share responsibility for law enforcement in the "monumental core" of the city, the Capitol Police are not trained to disperse a violent mob.

The local Washington police are now fully deployed on the Capitol campus.  They have been reinforced by (1) state police from the adjoining states of Maryland and Virginia, (2) agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, (3) law enforcement officers of several other, less-well-known federal agencies, and (4) the District of Columbia National Guard—a well-trained military force of civilians (the D.C. equivalent of a "state militia") that is associated with the U.S. Army.

Apropos of which, I was reminded while watching the live TV coverage today of the night of September 11, 2001.  My office was three blocks from the Capitol Building.  Around 10 p.m., I picked up my brother, who also worked downtown, and we drove back to my house in the northwest quadrant of the city.  That was the first time since I arrived in Washington during 1971 that I had ever seen troops in the streets in a non-ceremonial role.  Hopefully, once we're finally rid of Trump it will be another 30 years before they need to be called in again.

[faberryman]

If so, why post your comment in the first place?

As I mentioned, the fact that a woman was shot and killed in the US Capitol is not an everyday occurrence and is therefore newsworthy.

I don't know why you are so agitated about my post. Do you normally get so agitated when you read about newsworthy events? I once knew a guy who got so agitated watching the news, he had to seek professional help.

[LesPalenik]

I am very sorry to report that stupidity is not the sole purview of the Americans. I just received the following email from a friend:
(Thornhill is a borough on the northern flank of Toronto and Yonge Street is a main thoroughfare through Toronto and a few other towns north of it):

My friend lives in Thornhill and she drove on Yonge Street to go to the grocery store and inadvertently got into a convoy of about 20 “Stop the Steal” Trump supporters! Cars with signs and lights flashing!

[TechTalk]

But then again, this thread is full of baloney so nothing new here.

Baloney and cheese. And you serve up some of the biggest and thickest slices seen here.

[BernardLanguillier]

If so, why post your comment in the first place?

I share your views Frans.

The fact that Trump supporters stormed the congress to try to steal an election that the leader they blindly follow obviously lost is ten order of magnitudes more news worthy than the death of one person that may have resulted from their actions.

One death compared to the tens of thousands directly caused by Trump’s handling of the pandemic. It’s unfortunately negligible by the sad standards Trump has set. For those still debating the negative influence he had on his supporters covidwise, what happened today is indeed a clear proof that his supporters do believe what he says and act accordingly.

The storming of the Capitol is history book material.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Alan Klein]

Indeed.  Their primary responsibility during an incident of civil disorder within their limited jurisdiction, such as today's, is to protect the members of Congress, which they did.  My impression, as a longtime resident of Washington, is that unlike some of the other agencies that share responsibility for law enforcement in the "monumental core" of the city, the Capitol Police are not trained to disperse a violent mob.

The local Washington police are now fully deployed on the Capitol campus.  They have been reinforced by (1) state police from the adjoining states of Maryland and Virginia, (2) agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, (3) law enforcement officers of several other, less-well-known federal agencies, and (4) the District of Columbia National Guard—a well-trained military force of civilians (the D.C. equivalent of a "state militia") that is associated with the U.S. Army.

Apropos of which, I was reminded while watching the live TV coverage today of the night of September 11, 2001.  My office was three blocks from the Capitol Building.  Around 10 p.m., I picked up my brother, who also worked downtown, and we drove back to my house in the northwest quadrant of the city.  That was the first time since I arrived in Washington during 1971 that I had ever seen troops in the streets in a non-ceremonial role.  Hopefully, once we're finally rid of Trump it will be another 30 years before they need to be called in again.

Why was there inadequate policing at the Capitol that thugs were allowed to break in?  Everyone knew there was going to be a demonstration today.  I'm not excusing the thugs.  They're thugs and went too far.  But the police did not do a good job as you said, at least not initially. Someone dropped the ball. 

[Alan Klein]

Hillary Clinton concession speech:

Last night, I congratulated Donald Trump and offered to work with him on behalf of our country. I hope that he will be a successful president for all Americans. This is not the outcome we wanted or we worked so hard for and I’m sorry that we did not win this election for the values we share and the vision we hold for our country.

I know how disappointed you feel because I feel it too, and so do tens of millions of Americans who invested their hopes and dreams in this effort. This is painful and it will be for a long time, but I want you to remember this. Our campaign was never about one person or even one election, it was about the country we love and about building an America that’s hopeful, inclusive and big-hearted.

We have seen that our nation is more deeply divided than we thought. But I still believe in America and I always will. And if you do, then we must accept this result and then look to the future. Donald Trump is going to be our president. We owe him an open mind and the chance to lead.

Our constitutional democracy enshrines the peaceful transfer of power and we don’t just respect that, we cherish it. It also enshrines other things; the rule of law, the principle that we are all equal in rights and dignity, freedom of worship and expression. We respect and cherish these values too and we must defend them.


Donald Trump Today:

if Mike Pence does the right thing, we win the election. All he has to do. This is from the number one or certainly one of the top constitutional lawyers in our country. He has the absolute right to do it. We’re supposed to protect our country, support our country, support our constitution, and protect our constitution. States want to revote. The States got defrauded. They were given false information. They voted on it. Now they want to recertify. They want it back. All Vice-President Pence has to do is send it back to the States to re-certify, and we become president, and you are the happiest people.

...then we’re stuck with a president who lost the election by a lot, and we have to live with that for four more years. We’re just not going to let that happen.

They talk about our elections. You know what the world says about us now? They said we don’t have free and fair elections and you know what else? We don’t have a free and fair press.

Our media is not free. It’s not fair. It suppresses thought. It suppresses speech, and it’s become the enemy of the people. It’s become the enemy of the people. It’s the biggest problem we have in this country.

We’re going to have to fight much harder and Mike Pence is going to have to come through for us. If he doesn’t, that will be a sad day for our country because you’re sworn to uphold our constitution. Now it is up to Congress to confront this egregious assault on our democracy. After this, we’re going to walk down and I’ll be there with you. We’re going to walk down... We’re going walk down to the Capitol, and we’re going to cheer on our brave senators, and congressmen and women. We’re probably not going to be cheering so much for some of them because you’ll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength, and you have to be strong.

As you know the media is constantly asserted the outrageous lie that there was no evidence of widespread fraud. You ever see these people? “While there is no evidence of fraud…” Oh, really? Well, I’m going to read you pages. I hope you don’t get bored listening to it. Promise? Don’t get bored listening to it, all those hundreds of thousands of people back there.  Move them up, please... The American people do not believe the corrupt fake news anymore. They have ruined their reputation.

Look, I’m not happy with the Supreme Court. They love to rule against me. I picked three people. I fought like hell for them... We got him through. And you know what? They couldn’t give a damn. They couldn’t give a damn. Let them rule the right way, but it almost seems that they’re all going out of their way to hurt all of us, and to hurt our country. To hurt our country.

You will have a president who lost all of these states, or you will have a president to put it another way, who was voted on by a bunch of stupid people who lost all of these things. You will have an illegitimate president, that’s what you’ll have. And we can’t let that happen.

And they don’t realize that that’s going to be the end of the Republican party as we know it, but it’s never going to be the end of us, never. Let them get out. Let the weak ones get out. This is a time for strength. They also want to indoctrinate your children in school by teaching them things that aren’t so. They want to indoctrinate your children. It’s all part of the comprehensive assault on our democracy and the American people to finally standing up and saying, “No.” This crowd is again a testament to it...

And we got to get rid of the weak congresspeople, the ones that aren’t any good, the Liz Cheneys of the world, we got to get rid of them. We got to get rid of them...

So when you hear, when you hear, “While there is no evidence to prove any wrongdoing,” this is the most fraudulent thing anybody’s… This is a criminal enterprise.

They said, “It’s not American to challenge the election.” This is the most corrupt election in the history, maybe of the world... In fact, it’s so egregious, it’s so bad, that a lot of people don’t even believe it. It’s so crazy that people don’t even believe it. It can’t be true. So they don’t believe it. This is not just a matter of domestic politics, this is a matter of national security...

If we allow this group of people to illegally take over our country, because it’s illegal when the votes are illegal, when the way they got there is illegal, when the States that vote are given false and fraudulent information...

“Something’s wrong here. Something’s really wrong. Can’t have happened.” And we fight. We fight like Hell and if you don’t fight like Hell, you’re not going to have a country anymore...

So we’re going to, we’re going to walk down Pennsylvania Avenue, I love Pennsylvania Avenue, and we’re going to the Capitol and we’re going to try and give… The Democrats are hopeless. They’re never voting for anything, not even one vote. But we’re going to try and give our Republicans, the weak ones, because the strong ones don’t need any of our help, we’re going to try and give them the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country. So let’s walk down Pennsylvania Avenue.

What a long apology for Hillary. Everyone knows she said she complained she "wuz robbed" for four years after the election.

[Alan Klein]

I am very sorry to report that stupidity is not the sole purview of the Americans. I just received the following email from a friend:
(Thornhill is a borough on the northern flank of Toronto and Yonge Street is a main thoroughfare through Toronto and a few other towns north of it):

My friend lives in Thornhill and she drove on Yonge Street to go to the grocery store and inadvertently got into a convoy of about 20 “Stop the Steal” Trump supporters! Cars with signs and lights flashing!

Did they break into your capitol?

[faberryman]

What a long apology for Hillary. Everyone knows she said she complained she "wuz robbed" for four years after the election.

And she stole the White House china.

[Alan Klein]

Apparently, there's an anti-democratic streak in the Democratic party too.  They also complained how the election was stolen - by the Republicans when they won in 2000, 2004, and 2016.  Of course, when Democrats do it, it's all constitutional and normal procedure. Democratic to its core.  It's only sedition  and anti democratic when Republicans do it.  What hypocrisy.

Democrats Have Been Shameless About Your Presidential Vote Too
After the 2000, 2004 and 2016 elections, they objected to counting electoral totals.

Some excerpts: "In January 2005, in the wake of Mr. Bush’s re-election, Democrats were more aggressive. Senator Barbara Boxer of California joined Representative Stephanie Tubbs Jones of Ohio to lodge a formal objection to Ohio’s electoral votes. The objection compelled Congress to spend two hours in debate, even though Mr. Bush won Ohio by more than 118,000 votes.

Representative Barbara Lee of California claimed that “the Democratic process was thwarted.” Representative Jerrold Nadler of New York said that the right to vote was “stolen.” Ms. Waters objected too, dedicating her objection to the documentary filmmaker Michael Moore, whose 2004 movie “Fahrenheit 9/11” painted a dark (and at times factually debatable) picture of the Bush presidency.

The motion failed, but not before 31 members of the House, and Ms. Boxer in the Senate, voted to reject Ohio’s electoral votes — effectively voting to disenfranchise the people of Ohio in the Electoral College."
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/06/opinion/democrat-republican-electoral-votes.html

[Robert Roaldi]

Apparently, there's an anti-democratic streak in the Democratic party too.  They also complained how the election was stolen - by the Republicans when they won in 2000, 2004, and 2016.  Of course, when Democrats do it, it's all constitutional and normal procedure. Democratic to its core.  It's only sedition  and anti democratic when Republicans do it.  What hypocrisy.

Democrats Have Been Shameless About Your Presidential Vote Too
After the 2000, 2004 and 2016 elections, they objected to counting electoral totals.

Some excerpts: "In January 2005, in the wake of Mr. Bush’s re-election, Democrats were more aggressive. Senator Barbara Boxer of California joined Representative Stephanie Tubbs Jones of Ohio to lodge a formal objection to Ohio’s electoral votes. The objection compelled Congress to spend two hours in debate, even though Mr. Bush won Ohio by more than 118,000 votes.

Representative Barbara Lee of California claimed that “the Democratic process was thwarted.” Representative Jerrold Nadler of New York said that the right to vote was “stolen.” Ms. Waters objected too, dedicating her objection to the documentary filmmaker Michael Moore, whose 2004 movie “Fahrenheit 9/11” painted a dark (and at times factually debatable) picture of the Bush presidency.

The motion failed, but not before 31 members of the House, and Ms. Boxer in the Senate, voted to reject Ohio’s electoral votes — effectively voting to disenfranchise the people of Ohio in the Electoral College."
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/06/opinion/democrat-republican-electoral-votes.html

The most ineffective deflection attempt ever.

[Robert Roaldi]

And the clan backpedals.

"Ivanka, Eric, and Don Jr. Are in Furious Damage Control Mode Following Capitol Hill Siege"

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/01/trump-children-capitol-hill-damage-control/amp.

[Robert Roaldi]

What a long apology for Hillary. Everyone knows she said she complained she "wuz robbed" for four years after the election.

You may have missed another point there.

[TechTalk]

What a long apology for Hillary. Everyone knows she said she complained she "wuz robbed" for four years after the election.

Actually, the post had only a short excerpt from Hillary Clinton's concession speech. The vast majority of my post consists of excerpts from the President's remarks today for whom you have served as an apologist.

Remarks made to a mob that he had invited with : "I hope the Democrats, and even more importantly, the weak and ineffective RINO section of the Republican Party, are looking at the thousands of people pouring into D.C. They won’t stand for a landslide election victory to be stolen." and "Big protest in D.C. on January 6th. Be there, will be wild!" Remarks made just before supporters from that mob—who are traitors to their country—stormed and raided our Capitol.

Your response shows where your focus lies. It lies with an utter and complete blindness to anything that conflicts with your narrow ideological view of the world and a willingness to ignore, distract from, minimize, excuse, or justify the words and deeds of a president unworthy of the title.

[LesPalenik]

Did they break into your capitol?

They were stupid, but not that stupid. The capitol is 400km away from Toronto.

[Alan Klein]

Actually, the post had only a short excerpt from Hillary Clinton's concession speech. The vast majority of my post consists of excerpts from the President's remarks today for whom you have served as an apologist.

Remarks made to a mob that he had invited with : "I hope the Democrats, and even more importantly, the weak and ineffective RINO section of the Republican Party, are looking at the thousands of people pouring into D.C. They won’t stand for a landslide election victory to be stolen." and "Big protest in D.C. on January 6th. Be there, will be wild!" Remarks made just before supporters from that mob—who are traitors to their country—stormed and raided our Capitol.

Your response shows where your focus lies. It lies with an utter and complete blindness to anything that conflicts with your narrow ideological view of the world and a willingness to ignore, distract from, minimize, excuse, or justify the words and deeds of a president unworthy of the title.

Your post responded to my post about Hillary.  So that was my counter to yours.  Regarding the rest of your post, read my post #5331 about how democrats screamed how republicans stole elections from them and actually rejected the Republican electors from Ohio.  It seems like both sides "wuz robbed".   Did you complain when democrats did this?

[LesPalenik]

What a long apology for Hillary. Everyone knows she said she complained she "wuz robbed" for four years after the election.

But she was right about the deplorables.

[Alan Klein]

They were stupid, but not that stupid. The capitol is 400km away from Toronto.

Well, you got to be pretty stupid if you're a Canadian and rioting about an American election.