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Author Topic: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa  (Read 425583 times)

faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9020 on: March 15, 2021, 01:43:12 pm »

In a local election a year ago a few miles from where I live I  New Jersey, 19% of the mail-in votes were fraudulent..  Some of the Democrat candidates were illegally harvesting votes.  Fortunately, an alert mailman noticed a problem and brought it to the attention of the Postal police and it was investigated.  The election was declared null and void and three or four people were charged with election law crimes.

This argument against mail-in ballots suffers from two related logical fallacies: the logical fallacy of hasty generalization and the logical fallacy of anecdotal evidence. Essentially, it is inferring the general from the specific. Alan also misstates, and omits to state, the facts of the particular incident in New Jersey, but since we argued about it for days before the election, I am not going to rehash it now.

There are very big issues with mail-in votes. While my wife and I voted by mail in, we requested the ballot. That's fine and I agree that would be an acceptable way of voting.  But here's the problem.  What happened during the election, ballots were mailed to everyone who was still listed on a local voting roll whether they moved or were dead.  That attracts fraud as millions of ballots are circulating without proper recipients. These ar often left near mailboxes in apartment buildings form anyone to pick up to complete and mail back in.   Also, Democrats want no ID for voting.  That's silly and just attracts more fraud.  What modern country today do you vote without showing proper identification?

So Alan says he is okay with the way New Jersey did it in 2020. That is how it was done in 41 out of 50 states in 2020. Here are the 9 states and the District of Columbia that sent ballots out to everyone on the voter rolls. The last 5 asterisked states conduct their election by mail in ballot only, and were doing so even before 2020.

Vermont 66/31
Nevada 50/47
District of Columbia 92/5
California 64/34
New Jersey 57/41
*Colorado 55/42
*Hawaii 64/34
*Utah 38/58
*Washington 58/39
*Oregon 56/40

The numbers following the states' name represent Democrat/Republican vote percentages. As you can see, except for Nevada, the victory margins were huge by American standards. Trump legally contested the results in Nevada and could not establish any fraud. Indeed, Trump couldn't establish fraud anywhere. Of course he didn't allege fraud in any of the states he won. Apparently fraud in those states was okay.

Voting "reform" is not solely about mail-in ballots. There are a number of other issues, which are well summarized in the link below.

"Thus far this year, thirty-three states have introduced, prefiled, or carried over 165 bills to restrict voting access. These proposals primarily seek to: (1) limit mail voting access; (2) impose stricter voter ID requirements; (3) slash voter registration opportunities; and (4) enable more aggressive voter roll purges. These bills are an unmistakable response to the unfounded and dangerous lies about fraud that followed the 2020 election."

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/voting-laws-roundup-february-2021

As Stacey Abrahms said of the bills to restrict voting introduced in Georgia, this is "Jim Crow in a suit and tie".

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/stacey-abrams-restrict-voting_n_604eb121c5b6cf72d0976ece
« Last Edit: March 15, 2021, 02:02:18 pm by faberryman »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9021 on: March 15, 2021, 02:09:23 pm »

This argument against mail-in ballots suffers from two related logical fallacies: the logical fallacy of hasty generalization and the logical fallacy of anecdotal evidence. Essentially, it is inferring the general from the specific. Alan also misstates, and omits to state, the facts of the particular incident in New Jersey, but since we argued about it for days before the election, I am not going to rehash it now.

So Alan says he is okay with the way New Jersey did it in 2020. That is how it was done in 41 out of 50 states in 2020. Here are the 9 states and the District of Columbia that sent ballots out to everyone on the voter rolls. The last 5 asterisked states conduct their election by mail in ballot only, and were doing so even before 2020.

Vermont 66/31
Nevada 50/47
District of Columbia 92/5
California 64/34
New Jersey 57/41
*Colorado 55/42
*Hawaii 64/34
*Utah 38/58
*Washington 58/39
*Oregon 56/40

The numbers following the states' name represent Democrat/Republican vote percentages. As you can see, except for Nevada, the victory margins were huge by American standards. Trump legally contested the results in Nevada and could not establish any fraud. Indeed, Trump couldn't establish fraud anywhere. Of course he didn't allege fraud in any of the states he won. Apparently fraud in those states was okay.

Voting "reform" is not solely about mail-in ballots. There are a number of other issues, which are well summarized in the link below.

"Thus far this year, thirty-three states have introduced, prefiled, or carried over 165 bills to restrict voting access. These proposals primarily seek to: (1) limit mail voting access; (2) impose stricter voter ID requirements; (3) slash voter registration opportunities; and (4) enable more aggressive voter roll purges. These bills are an unmistakable response to the unfounded and dangerous lies about fraud that followed the 2020 election."

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/voting-laws-roundup-february-2021

As Stacey Abrahms said of the bills to restrict voting introduced in Georgia, this is "Jim Crow in a suit and tie".

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/stacey-abrams-restrict-voting_n_604eb121c5b6cf72d0976ece
I didn't say I agree with NJ sending ballots out to everyone on the polling lists.  You misread my post. I only agree with the process where the voter requests a mail-in ballot.  I also feel that some sort of photo ID should be required for in-person voting.  Frankly, I don't know what NJ requires for this.  But it should be a standard in all states.

faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9022 on: March 15, 2021, 02:18:58 pm »

I didn't say I agree with NJ sending ballots out to everyone on the polling lists.  You misread my post. I only agree with the process where the voter requests a mail-in ballot.  I also feel that some sort of photo ID should be required for in-person voting.  Frankly, I don't know what NJ requires for this.  But it should be a standard in all states.

My mistake. I did not notice that New Jersey was on the list of states who sent out ballots to all voters. You did say you were okay with sending out mail-in ballots only to voters who request them as is the case in the other 41 states.

The current NJ statewide voter application requires the following forms of identification:

"Registrants who are submitting this form by mail and are registering to vote for the first time: If you do not supply any of the information required by section 7 [NJ Driver’s License Number or MVC Non-driver ID Number], or the information you provide cannot be verified, you will be asked to provide a COPY of a current and valid photo ID, or a document with your name and current address on it to avoid having to provide identification at the polling place.

https://www.state.nj.us/state/elections/assets/pdf/forms-voter-registration/68-voter-registration-english.pdf

As of 2019, the following are acceptable forms of identification in New Jersey. The link to 2020 list in the article leads you elsewhere, so this list may have changed.

New Jersey driver's license
Military or other government ID
Student or job ID
Store membership card
United States Passport,
Bank statement
Car registration
Government check or document
Non-photo NJ driver's license
Rent receipt
Sample Ballot
Utility bill
Any other official document

https://ballotpedia.org/Voter_ID_in_New_Jersey

Someone in a nursing home might have difficulty in supplying one of the listed forms of identification.

By the way, Trump challenged the New Jersey mail-in ballot scheme before the election citing the voter fraud incident Alan referred to. The judge dismissed the case saying that the chance of fraud was too speculative.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/new-jersey-judge-throws-out-trump-campaign-mail-in-ballot-lawsuit
« Last Edit: March 15, 2021, 03:15:06 pm by faberryman »
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faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9023 on: March 15, 2021, 03:20:39 pm »

Breaking news. Brian Sicknick is the Capitol Police officer who died.

Two men arrested and charged for assaulting Capitol Police Officer Brian Sicknick

https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/15/politics/brian-sicknick-capitol-riot-charges/index.html
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9024 on: March 15, 2021, 03:21:31 pm »

My mistake. I did not notice that New Jersey was on the list of states who sent out ballots to all voters. You did say you were okay with sending out mail-in ballots only to voters who request them as is the case in the other 41 states.

The current NJ statewide voter application requires the following forms of identification:

"Registrants who are submitting this form by mail and are registering to vote for the first time: If you do not supply any of the information required by section 7 [NJ Driver’s License Number or MVC Non-driver ID Number], or the information you provide cannot be verified, you will be asked to provide a COPY of a current and valid photo ID, or a document with your name and current address on it to avoid having to provide identification at the polling place.

https://www.state.nj.us/state/elections/assets/pdf/forms-voter-registration/68-voter-registration-english.pdf

As of 2019, the following are acceptable forms of identification in New Jersey. The link to 2020 list in the article leads you elsewhere, so this list may have changed.

New Jersey driver's license
Military or other government ID
Student or job ID
Store membership card
United States Passport,
Bank statement
Car registration
Government check or document
Non-photo NJ driver's license
Rent receipt
Sample Ballot
Utility bill
Any other official document

https://ballotpedia.org/Voter_ID_in_New_Jersey

Someone in a nursing home might have difficulty in supplying one of the listed forms of identification.

By the way, Trump challenged the New Jersey mail-in ballot scheme before the election citing the voter fraud incident Alan referred to. The judge dismissed the case saying that the chance of fraud was too speculative.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/new-jersey-judge-throws-out-trump-campaign-mail-in-ballot-lawsuit

I can't imagine someone who lives in a nursing home is voting for the first time.  If they are, at let's say 80 years old, I can't imagine they're interested in voting after eight decades.  everyone else who has voted before can automatically request a mail-in ballot by mail.  If I recall correctly, I got a request from the state without my requesting it asking if I want to vote by mail.  I didn't even have to request the form.  So would a person in a nursing home.  If a nursing home resident doesn't have a family member to help them with this, the nursing homes have people who will.  You're creating a situation that doesn't exist. 

faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9025 on: March 15, 2021, 03:28:24 pm »

I can't imagine someone who lives in a nursing home is voting for the first time.  If they are, at let's say 80 years old, I can't imagine they're interested in voting after eight decades.  everyone else who has voted before can automatically request a mail-in ballot by mail.  If I recall correctly, I got a request from the state without my requesting it asking if I want to vote by mail.  I didn't even have to request the form.  So would a person in a nursing home.  If a nursing home resident doesn't have a family member to help them with this, the nursing homes have people who will.  You're creating a situation that doesn't exist.

I believe you moved your mother-in-law from a nursing home in New York to a nursing home in New Jersey when you moved to New Jersey.  How were you able to get her registered to vote in New Jersey?
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9026 on: March 15, 2021, 03:33:11 pm »

Breaking news. Brian Sicknick is the Capitol Police officer who died.

Two men arrested and charged for assaulting Capitol Police Officer Brian Sicknick

https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/15/politics/brian-sicknick-capitol-riot-charges/index.html
It sounds like the officer was sprayed with pepper spray which normally causes eyes to tear and makes it difficult to breath like bear spray.  The office died much later not at the capitol and I haven't read anything that has associated the spray with his death.  These two were not charged with murder.  In fact, I don't believe Sicknick has been found to be murdered.  They don't know what caused his death. The original cause being headlined in the phony press was that he was hit with a fire extinguisher.  The investigation has shown that never happened. 

During the BLM riots last summer, cops were continually sprayed with pepper spray and they spray the people.  This happens all the time at riots including the rioter throwing tear gas back at the cops as well as spraying them.  There seems to be a double standard with these things.  I'm not saying they shouldn't be prosecuted for assaulting a cop.  They should.  But it would be nice for you to use the same standards with whoever is using these tactics.

digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9027 on: March 15, 2021, 03:36:24 pm »

It sounds like the officer was sprayed with pepper spray which normally causes eyes to tear and makes it difficult to breath like bear spray.  The office died much later not at the capitol and I haven't read anything that has associated the spray with his death. 
Assumptions and of course, Alan didn't read.  ;)
There is an autopsy report/results yet to be released. But since we don't have all the facts, it's expected that Alan would make something up based on his misinformation about this topic.   
Quote
During the BLM riots last summer, cops were continually sprayed with pepper spray and they spray the people.
And how many of those cops died?
Alan doesn't know.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2021, 03:41:09 pm by digitaldog »
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faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9028 on: March 15, 2021, 03:36:39 pm »

During the BLM riots last summer, cops were continually sprayed with pepper spray and they spray the people.  This happens all the time at riots including the rioter throwing tear gas back at the cops as well as spraying them.  There seems to be a double standard with these things.  I'm not saying they shouldn't be prosecuted for assaulting a cop.  They should.  But it would be nice for you to use the same standards with whoever is using these tactics.

I reported a news story without comment. I have no idea how you concluded "it would be nice for you to use the same standards with whoever is using these tactics." Perhaps you could explain.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2021, 03:41:44 pm by faberryman »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9029 on: March 15, 2021, 03:41:41 pm »

I believe you moved your mother-in-law from a nursing home in New York to a nursing home in New Jersey when you moved to New Jersey.  How were you able to get her registered to vote in New Jersey?
I don't know.  My wife handled it. But I know my mother-in-law has all kinds of ID.  Being on Social Security, she gets government checks which are acceptable as an ID according to your list above.  She also gets letters from the federal government and has bank statements.  People who live in nursing homes have to pay with checks.  So they all have banking accounts which also are acceptable.  The nursing home gives her rent bills, another acceptable document.  In today's society, you'd have to live under a rock to not be able to come up with some form of identity of where you live and who you are.  Trying to eliminate the ID process is just the path democrats want to stuff the ballot boxes like what happened near me last year.  It does not engender trust in the election process.

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9030 on: March 15, 2021, 03:43:40 pm »

I reported a news story without comment. I have no idea how you concluded "it would be nice for you to use the same standards with whoever is using these tactics." Perhaps you could explain.
I don't recall you posting an article during the BLM riots of rioters spraying cops.  Why did you choose to do that now?

digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9031 on: March 15, 2021, 03:47:19 pm »

The office died much later not at the capitol and I haven't read anything that has associated the spray with his death.
The day after the storming, anonymous Capitol police officers told The New York Times that Sicknick sustained his injuries by being struck by a fire extinguisher while physically engaging with protesters. He died at 9:30 pm on January 7. The day after the storming. The medical examiner's report has not been publicly released yet.
And Alan will not read this either.
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faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9032 on: March 15, 2021, 03:53:52 pm »

I don't recall you posting an article during the BLM riots of rioters spraying cops.  Why did you choose to do that now?

I posted the article without comment because I thought it is an item of general interest which showed up in my newsfeed this morning. Please explain how you concluded by my doing so that "it would be nice for you to use the same standards with whoever is using these tactics."

The office died much later not at the capitol and I haven't read anything that has associated the spray with his death.


Perhaps you ought to keep up with the news better.  Here is just one of the articles about bear spray possibly being responsible for Officer Sicknick's death.

"The FBI’s latest theory is that the 42-year-old Sicknick suffered a stroke after inhaling an aerosol-based “bear spray” during the riot, according to recent reports that authorities refuse to confirm."

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/mar/3/brian-sicknick-us-capitol-police-officer-cause-dea/

« Last Edit: March 15, 2021, 04:02:45 pm by faberryman »
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digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9033 on: March 15, 2021, 03:56:34 pm »

I posted the article without comment because I thought it is an item of general interest which showed up in my newsfeed this morning. Please explain how you concluded by my doing so that "it would be nice for you to use the same standards with whoever is using these tactics."
Concluded? Not part of his posting agenda.
Pivot and distract back to Cuomo I'll bet.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9034 on: March 15, 2021, 04:00:46 pm »

I posted the article without comment because I thought it is an item of general interest which showed up in my newsfeed this morning. Please explain how you concluded by my doing so that "it would be nice for you to use the same standards with whoever is using these tactics."
Do you think that the BLM marchers should be prosecuted for spraying cops with pepper spray?  Do you know if any have been?  What have been their penalties?  Maybe you can Google it.  I'm going to get an ice cream cone.

faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9035 on: March 15, 2021, 04:06:45 pm »

Do you think that the BLM marchers should be prosecuted for spraying cops with pepper spray?

If a protester injures a police officer by any means he should be charged and prosecuted.

Do you know if any have been? What have been their penalties?

I know generally that protesters have been arrested and charged with assaulting police officers. I do not recall reading a story in my newsfeed about a protester being charged with assaulting a police officer with pepper spray, but you might be able to find one if you googled it. I do not recall reading a story in my newsfeed about a protester being convicted of assaulting a police officer with pepper spray, but you might be able to find one if you googled it. Unless a story is in my newsfeed, I generally don't post it.

Maybe you can Google it.  I'm going to get an ice cream cone.

If those are topics you are interested in perhaps you can google them yourself after you get back from eating an ice cream cone.

Since you have now dodged my question twice, I will repeat it a third time:

Please explain how you concluded by my posting without comment an article about two men having been arrested for bear spaying Officer Sicknick that "it would be nice for you to use the same standards with whoever is using these tactics."
« Last Edit: March 15, 2021, 07:14:14 pm by faberryman »
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digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9036 on: March 15, 2021, 04:22:44 pm »

New poll shows 30% of White male Trump supporters refuse to take a Covid-19 vaccine.
It may quiet down in the bear pit?

You know the good part about all those executions in Texas? Fewer Texans. -George Carlin
And White Trump supporters, unfortunately all those they infect.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9037 on: March 15, 2021, 05:02:35 pm »

Good news for those who don't like masks.

digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9038 on: March 15, 2021, 05:04:14 pm »

Good news for those who don't like masks.
You mean (durning a pandemic where more than half a million Americans have died) utter morons?
Comedy and photography, don't give up your day job sir.
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PeterAit

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #9039 on: March 15, 2021, 05:37:42 pm »

My AK BS meter just shot to 11 (it's gauged from 0-10).
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan

What AK says is, in broad outline, true. But he omits a couple of important things. First, the election was done entirely by mail, so of course they sent ballots to all registered voters. Second, the outcome shows that measures already in place are very good at detecting this kind of fraud. Just as they did during a 2018 congressional race here in NC when a GOP operative was caught harvesting ballots and the election was nullified. And note this: if the fraudsters cannot even successfully rig a minor municipal election, what's the chance of them rigging a big election? Zero.
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