Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa

[faberryman]

Your post makes no sense.  I think you ought to re-read all my posts about this.

Sounds like you think Bezos made the wrong decision.

I don't know why you are so bent out of shape about it. Maybe by not giving Amazon $3 billion in tax incentives, they'll be more likely to pay your pension.

[Alan Klein]

She was just recently elected re-elected as a first-time second term congresswoman. She was re-elected with a vote percentage of 72% a few months ago. It appears the voters in her district overwhelmingly support her.

As a response to a lengthy article, to which I provided a link, detailing the multiple reasons for Amazon's decision, your reply seems very narrowly focused.

Amazon selected NYC after months or years of exploring many cities.  It was politics that changed their mind after they already announce publicly that they were choosing NYC.  There were high fives from the mayor and governor and everyone else in NYC except AOC and a few spoilsports trying to make a name for themselves. From your article:

A member of the team that led Amazon’s search for the location of its new second headquarters says the company knew that it might encounter some local resistance to its plans to locate part of the project in Long Island City, Queens. But when that opposition proved to be more strident than expected, it helped Amazon resolve a dilemma it had been wrestling with for months: how to hire 50,000 tech workers all at once.

“That was part of the original decision to split the second headquarters among New York and [Northern Virginia],” said Brian Huseman, Amazon’s vice president for public policy.

The response in Virginia was much different from New York’s — what little opposition there is has been low key.

“We received a really warm welcome from the community,” Huseman said.

Rather than continuing to battle with New York, the company quickly decided to drop its plans to hire 25,000 people there.

[TechTalk]

Amazon selected NYC after months or years of exploring many cities.  It was politics that changed their mind after they already announce publicly that they were choosing NYC.  There were high fives from the mayor and governor and everyone else in NYC except AOC and a few spoilsports trying to make a name for themselves. From your article:

A member of the team that led Amazon’s search for the location of its new second headquarters says the company knew that it might encounter some local resistance to its plans to locate part of the project in Long Island City, Queens. But when that opposition proved to be more strident than expected, it helped Amazon resolve a dilemma it had been wrestling with for months: how to hire 50,000 tech workers all at once.

“That was part of the original decision to split the second headquarters among New York and [Northern Virginia],” said Brian Huseman, Amazon’s vice president for public policy....

Well at least you read the part of the article that satisfied you. It continues...

"But the biggest motivator for Amazon: a state committed to developing a technology talent pipeline for the future. Virginia is the Top State for Business in 2019, and it offers the best workforce in the nation, according to the CNBC study, with the nation’s largest concentration of science, technology, engineering and math employees."

“It turns out that tech talent was the biggest driving factor for us,” Huseman said. “Both tech talent on day one, but also tech talent in the future.”

But the deciding factor for Crystal city may well have been the bid’s emphasis on education. It was apparently the only bid that included a college campus right next door — Virginia Tech University was offering to build a so-called “Innovation Campus” in nearby Alexandria.

Amazon was pretty much sold.

“Many locations had current tech talent,” Huseman said. “What was unique about Virginia was its commitment to developing that long-term talent pipeline and closing the skills gap.”

The company still plans to limit its hiring in Virginia to 25,000 employees over 10 years. The other 25,000 that had been planned for New York will be spread among the company’s 17 existing tech hubs — a more manageable process.

“There’s a lot of great tech talent around the country, and we have existing presence in many of those locations,” Huseman said.

[faberryman]

The government doesn't design things they need.  rather they define capabilities and standards and leave the design and execution to the private companies.

I wonder if that is true in all cases? Probably not.

For example, in the case of the SR-71 Blackbird spy plane.  They defined the elevation and speed they wanted the plane to fly to avoid getting shot down.  Then they left it to industry to design the plane and cameras to get the job done.  Of course, in the case of NASA, they had a more hands-on approach, especially testing.  When I worked as a crypto tech for the USAF, all the manuals were titled NSA National Security Agency, the spy agency.  But when I delved into the manuals, I found out all the crypto equipment was manufactured by private companies.

This is an example of the logical fallacy of composition, informally referred to as the fallacy of hasty generalization.

[Peter McLennan]

Yes the probes were below the lander but they were PART of the lander and the second they contacted the surface, they were on the surface of the moon.  Power or no power.

Sorry but you have it wrong, again.

Nope.  Dragging the undercarriage along the runway does not constitute a landing.

[TechTalk]

I wonder if that is true in all cases? Probably not.

Unless one believes that decades of NASA engineers were just window dressing, with the actual work done somewhere else by someone else—definitely not.

Per Boeing: "the Saturn V was designed under the direction of Wernher von Braun at the Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabama"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Space_Flight_Center

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_Propulsion_Laboratory

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ames_Research_Center

Just to name a few out of MANY...

https://www.nasa.gov/about/sites/index

Including the Michoud Assembly Facility

https://www.nasa.gov/centers/marshall/michoud/Assembly

For more than half a century, NASA’s Michoud Assembly Facility in New Orleans has been the agency’s “rocket factory,” the nation’s premiere site for manufacturing and assembly of large-scale space structures and systems. The government-owned manufacturing facility is one of the largest in the world, 829-total acres, with 43 acres of manufacturing space under one roof -- a space large enough to contain more than 31 professional football fields. Michoud, managed by NASA’s Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabama, includes several areas within its facility that are used by commercial firms or NASA contractors.

Today, Michoud is manufacturing and assembling some of the largest parts of NASA’s Space Launch System (SLS)—the world’s most powerful rocket that will send the Orion spacecraft, astronauts and supplies on bold exploration missions to the Moon and beyond.

[Alan Klein]

Well at least you read the part of the article that satisfied you. It continues...

"But the biggest motivator for Amazon: a state committed to developing a technology talent pipeline for the future. Virginia is the Top State for Business in 2019, and it offers the best workforce in the nation, according to the CNBC study, with the nation’s largest concentration of science, technology, engineering and math employees."

“It turns out that tech talent was the biggest driving factor for us,” Huseman said. “Both tech talent on day one, but also tech talent in the future.”

But the deciding factor for Crystal city may well have been the bid’s emphasis on education. It was apparently the only bid that included a college campus right next door — Virginia Tech University was offering to build a so-called “Innovation Campus” in nearby Alexandria.

Amazon was pretty much sold.

“Many locations had current tech talent,” Huseman said. “What was unique about Virginia was its commitment to developing that long-term talent pipeline and closing the skills gap.”

The company still plans to limit its hiring in Virginia to 25,000 employees over 10 years. The other 25,000 that had been planned for New York will be spread among the company’s 17 existing tech hubs — a more manageable process.

“There’s a lot of great tech talent around the country, and we have existing presence in many of those locations,” Huseman said.[/i]

They liked Virginia and NYC but they already made the announcement about NYC.  It's not like they never decided.  They decided for NYC.  25,000 jobs slated for NYC. They made the announcement.  It was set.  The mayor and governor and Amazon were high fiving it.  Then, they changed their minds because of the negative politics after their decision from AOC and a few others.  The 25, 000 jobs slated to NY did not go to Virginia.  They went elsewhere. Read the bolded sentence in your own post.   

[Alan Klein]

Here's from the 2019 article from the NY Times about the pullout from the deal. The headquarters was split between Virginia and NYC. They canceled the NYC portion.  It was AOC and the left and a few other politicians that destroyed the plan.  Politically she won.  But economically, she hurt the city.

Amazon on Thursday canceled its plans to build an expansive corporate campus in New York City after facing an unexpectedly fierce backlash from lawmakers, progressive activists and union leaders, who contended that a tech giant did not deserve nearly $3 billion in government incentives.

The decision was an abrupt turnabout by Amazon after a much-publicized search for a second headquarters, which had ended with its announcement in November that it would open two new sites — one in Queens, with more than 25,000 jobs, and another in Virginia.

Amazon’s retreat was a blow to Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo and Mayor Bill de Blasio, damaging their effort to further diversify the city’s economy by making it an inviting location for the technology industry.

The agreement to lure Amazon to Long Island City, Queens, had stirred intense debate in New York about the use of public subsidies to entice wealthy companies, the rising cost of living in gentrifying neighborhoods, and the city’s very identity.

“A number of state and local politicians have made it clear that they oppose our presence and will not work with us to build the type of relationships that are required to go forward,” Amazon said in a statement.

The company made its decision late Wednesday, after growing increasingly concerned that the backlash in New York showed no sign of abating and was tarnishing its image beyond the city, according to two people with knowledge of the discussions inside the company.

In recent days, Mr. de Blasio had tried to reach Jeff Bezos, Amazon’s chief executive, according to one official. But Mr. Bezos did not speak with him, nor with Mr. Cuomo.

The company’s decision was at least a short-term win for insurgent progressive politicians led by Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, whose upset victory last year occurred in the western corner of Queens where Amazon had planned its site.

Her race galvanized the party’s left flank, which mobilized against the deal, helped swing New York’s Legislature into Democratic hands, and struck fear in the hearts of some local politicians.

On Thursday, Ms. Ocasio-Cortez seemed to revel in Amazon’s decision, writing on Twitter that “anything is possible.”[/i]
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/14/nyregion/amazon-hq2-queens.html

[Alan Klein]

Well, at least he has acknowledged it wasn't only AOC who objected to the plan.

I have re-read TechTalk's posts and I can't find where he asserted that the "25,000 jobs slated for NY " went to Virginia, so I am not sure what your point is here.

Tech tried to make it seem that they picked Virginia over NYC because they had a better labor pool.  But they made a final decision to split the headquarters knowing all that and then changed their mind and canceled the agreement only after the politics made it impossible for them.  In any case, the 25,000 jobs slated for NYC didn't go to Virginia.  They went elsewhere.  So Tech's claim is moot.  It has nothing to do with their decision. 

[faberryman]

Tech tried to make it seem that they picked Virginia over NYC because they had a better labor pool.  But they made a final decision to split the headquarters knowing all that and then changed their mind and canceled the agreement only after the politics made it impossible for them.  In any case, the 25,000 jobs slated for NYC didn't go to Virginia.  They went elsewhere.  So Tech's claim is moot.  It has nothing to do with their decision.

I disagree with your reading of the quotes about jobs and the labor pool and the decision-making process, but am not interested in discussing it further.

[TechTalk]

They liked Virginia and NYC but they already made the announcement about NYC.  It's not like they never decided.  They decided for NYC.  25,000 jobs slated for NYC. They made the announcement.  It was set.  The mayor and governor and Amazon were high fiving it.  Then, they changed their minds because of the negative politics after their decision from AOC and a few others.  The 25, 000 jobs slated to NY did not go to Virginia.  They went elsewhere. Read the bolded sentence in your own post.   

I did. You might try reading the parts that I underlined. Amazon made an initial decision to locate 25,000 tech jobs in NYC and changed their minds. Political opposition was part of the decision to re-evaluate, but not the only one. AOC opposed the multibillion dollar NYC tax incentive, but the article makes clear that tax incentives were not the motivating factor in their decision. Virginia's tax incentive was far less at $750 million. A pipeline of tech talent was key.

They decided it was a "more manageable process" to have one large HQ in Virginia and distribute the remainder to "the company’s 17 existing tech hubs". Seems like a logical choice as it is no doubt easier to collect the needed talent in several locations than in just one. The tech talent they seek can be added a thousand or two or three thousand in each of several regions more quickly from a broader geographic base by expanding existing facilities. Though not mentioned in the article, some tech talent might be reluctant to move to NYC or far from family and friends. Sounds like a sound business decision on their part.

I know that you're itching to make it an entirely political matter and to blame AOC, but it's more complex than that. She no doubt played a role in the political portion with her tax incentive objection, but that's only one act in the play and she was only one actor out of an entire cast of characters.

Sorry if it's more complicated than you would like to make it.

[TechTalk]

Tech tried to make it seem that they picked Virginia over NYC because they had a better labor pool.  But they made a final decision to split the headquarters knowing all that and then changed their mind and canceled the agreement only after the politics made it impossible for them.  In any case, the 25,000 jobs slated for NYC didn't go to Virginia.  They went elsewhere.  So Tech's claim is moot.  It has nothing to do with their decision.

I wasn't trying to do anything other than bring your attention to the fact that there was more to Amazon's decision than one lone congresswoman and politics.

I don't have a claim to make moot because I don't have any claim, other than you have become fond of the word moot lately. Oh, and what I just said above... that there were multiple factors that drove Amazon's decision making process and it involved more than politics.

[TechTalk]

I disagree with your reading of the quotes about jobs and the labor pool and the decision-making process, but am not interested in discussing it further.

Yeah... I think I'm done with it too.

[Robert Roaldi]

Tech tried to make it seem that they picked Virginia over NYC because they had a better labor pool.  But they made a final decision to split the headquarters knowing all that and then changed their mind and canceled the agreement only after the politics made it impossible for them.  In any case, the 25,000 jobs slated for NYC didn't go to Virginia.  They went elsewhere.  So Tech's claim is moot.  It has nothing to do with their decision.

I thought that you believed it's a mistake to let governments pick winners and losers. So governments should never give tax breaks/incentives/holidays/deals to anybody.

Anyway, I don't understand your problem. If Amazon decided to not build in NY, that just means they built somewhere else. That other place, it's American too, and the people working in that place are Americans. So what's the problem. Why are you trying to create friction between two areas of the same country? What purpose does that serve?

[Robert Roaldi]

Internecine strife is bad enough but when donors get confused, that could spell trouble, https://thehill.com/business-a-lobbying/business-a-lobbying/539514-trump-mcconnell-rift-impacts-gop-donors.

That's the mark of a great leader, the mess they leave behind.

[John Camp]

I may be remembering this incorrectly, but I don't believe that the "tax incentives" were money out of NY's pocket -- they were tax reductions that Amazon would have received had they located their headquarters there. NY would not have paid the company anything, but they wouldn't have hit the company as hard with taxes as they might have without the reduction agreement. Overall, it meant a very large tax loss for New York -- the income taxes that would have been paid by 25,000 workers. (Although I suppose many of those workers already had jobs of some kind.) Again, I may be remembering this incorrectly, but when "unions" are included among the objectors to the Amazon plan, that might be overstating it -- some unions might have had a problem, but I seem to remember that some other unions were extremely upset by the loss of the jobs that the Amazon campus would have created.

[TechTalk]

Actually... One final post on the subject with comments that I intended to make earlier...

I worked in the area Amazon wanted to move to for forty years in Long Island City in Queens, just over the East River from mid-town Manhattan.  There are many poor people and low-income projects there, mostly minority.  It would have been a boon for the very kind of constituents that AOC represents.  She's a dodo bird.

In addition to the objection to the tax incentive, the impact on current residents was another concern expressed by AOC and other politicians. They are indeed her constituents which she was elected to represent. The concern was how many of the relatively poor residents would actually benefit from new tech employment opportunities versus the impact on existing housing and increases in the cost to the residents already living there. There was a legitimate question about massive new building and new employees coming from outside the area displacing current housing and the impact on housing costs.

It appears the constituents she represents were not unhappy based on her election results after the decision was made. She attended a community meeting with constituents after Amazon's decision to explain her concerns and answer questions. One the concerns she expressed and shared by some residents was how much of what Amazon proposed wound be an investment benefitting the existing community as opposed to replacing the existing community.

After Amazon canceled the Queens HQ2 project, they signed a lease for a huge million square foot warehouse in Queens near the site of the canceled HQ2. It may prove to be more beneficial to the residents that already live there than the HQ2 project.

https://www.amny.com/news/amazon-signs-lease-for-massive-warehouse-in-queens

Amazon signed a lease for a massive 1-million-square-foot warehouse in Maspeth, not far from where the e-commerce giant had planned to build its HQ2 campus in Long Island City.

The facility is currently under construction at 55-15 Grand Ave., which was home to the old Cascades Containerboard factory.

“We are excited to increase our investment in the New York City area with a new delivery station that will provide fast and efficient deliveries and create hundreds of job opportunities for the talented local workforce,” an Amazon spokesperson said.

While the new delivery station won’t bring 25,000 jobs that Amazon vowed to create at the scuttled HQ2 campus along Anable Basin, the Maspeth facility will offer entrepreneurs the opportunity to build their own business delivering Amazon packages, as well as independent contractors the flexibility to be their own boss and create their own schedule delivering for Amazon Flex.

Screw NY.  They moved their plans for a new headquarters to another city, I think Atlanta. 

No. They decided on what they called a more manageable plan expanding seventeen existing tech hubs.

[TechTalk]

I may be remembering this incorrectly, but I don't believe that the "tax incentives" were money out of NY's pocket -- they were tax reductions that Amazon would have received had they located their headquarters there. NY would not have paid the company anything, but they wouldn't have hit the company as hard with taxes as they might have without the reduction agreement. Overall, it meant a very large tax loss for New York -- the income taxes that would have been paid by 25,000 workers. (Although I suppose many of those workers already had jobs of some kind.) Again, I may be remembering this incorrectly, but when "unions" are included among the objectors to the Amazon plan, that might be overstating it -- some unions might have had a problem, but I seem to remember that some other unions were extremely upset by the loss of the jobs that the Amazon campus would have created.

Amazon’s HQ2 deal with New York, explained

https://ny.curbed.com/2018/11/16/amazon-hq2-nyc-queens-long-island-city-explained

The agreement comes with a number of incentives: Specifically, Amazon will receive $897 million from the city’s Relocation and Employment Assistance Program (REAP) and $386 million from the Industrial & Commercial Abatement Program (ICAP). It will receive an additional $505 million in a capital grant and $1.2 billion in “Excelsior” credits if its job creation goals are met. That brings the total amount of public funds granted to $2.988 billion—in other words, the city and state will pay Amazon $48,000 per job.

[JoeKitchen]

She was just recently elected as a first-time congresswoman.  She blew apart a good deal for NY and New Yorkers right out of the gate all for political reasons.  She's a lightweight when it comes to business and the economy.  Of course, the biased left-wing press is in love with her so she can do no wrong.

Dont worry Alan, AOC's career is probably coming to an end soon. 

NY is loosing two seats in redistricting, meaning at least two people are getting drawn out of their district.  For NY state Dems, AOC is first on the list.  She has actively worked against and snubbed the Democratic party in a lot of behind the scenes stuff normal people don't see but really angers fellow politicians.  She is a close second to Cuomo in terms of hatred by her state party.   

As they say, dont piss where you sleep.  Yet she has been spraying it like a fire hose.   

[TechTalk]

Dont worry Alan, AOC's career is probably coming to an end soon. 

NY is loosing two seats in redistricting, meaning at least two people are getting drawn out of their district.  For NY state Dems, AOC is first on the list.  She has actively worked against and snubbed the Democratic party in a lot of behind the scenes stuff normal people don't see but really angers fellow politicians.  She is a close second to Cuomo in terms of hatred by her state party.   

As they say, dont piss where you sleep.  Yet she has been spraying it like a fire hose.   

She is a relative novice in politics, but has shown herself to be a pretty formidable opponent in her first two campaigns. She's also young and may improve her political skills as they mature. Time will tell.

As the say, don't count your chickens before they hatch. Not as colorful as your expression, but it will do.