Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa

[digitaldog]

We have spent two days whittling down your number of nursing home deaths directly caused Cuomo's order from 13,000 to now you don't know.
You waste everyone's time with your false facts and logical fallacies.

Yes, we were better off when many of us where on his ignore list.
And yes, he's provided fiction that he can't prove and will always believe no matter how we try to get proof of concept. He's a bottomless hole of CWOBaT (colossal waste of bandwidth and time).
He can't change his mind and we can't convince him, but that's not my goal.
He can't provide facts to backup much of what he states, many have clearly shown this posting agenda.
He can't stop posting assumptions, making generalizations and speaking for others.
And 'we' end up on 'his' ignore list?

[LesPalenik]

Undercounting of covid deaths is happening everywhere, but more in the areas with primarily Trump support.

Some of these excess deaths are likely due to factors that were exacerbated by the pandemic, such as overdoses and suicide in response to isolation and economic hardship, or subpar health care in an overrun system. But researchers believe many are Covid-19 deaths that go uncounted. Overall, the true Covid-19 death toll is 44% higher than official figures, according to the study, which has been submitted to PLOS Medicine.

The researchers found that unattributed Covid-19 deaths were significantly higher in rural areas than urban; in the South compared to other regions; and in areas with lower levels of education. All these factors tend to correlate with support for Trump.

https://www.statnews.com/2021/01/25/undercounting-covid-19-deaths-greatest-in-pro-trump-areas-analysis-shows/

[digitaldog]

Well that was quick. Trumps attorneys had about three hours and 15 minutes, didn’t do as poorly as earlier this week. Their audience of one is probably quite happy. And those Republican senators needing an excuse to let Trump off the hook have some weak ammo at their disposal. The outcome will probably be no surprise to many who have been following this “trial”.

[faberryman]

Well that was quick. Trumps attorneys had about three hours and 15 minutes, didn’t do as poorly as earlier this week. Their audience of one is probably quite happy. And those Republican senators needing an excuse to let Trump off the hook have some weak ammo at their disposal. The outcome will probably be no surprise to many who have been following this “trial”.

Well, they didn't have that much they could say. I hope no one has any questions. Let them vote and get it over with. Then we can get on with the coverage of Trump stiffing them for their fees.

Update:

Senators are asking questions. Obviously, they slept through the presentations of both sides. I can answer the questions and I had the sound off half the time. Good grief.

Not to mention I have come to the conclusion that the variegated brown marble is ugly and the carpet looks like it came out of a Motel 6.

Updated update:

Still asking questions. Some of these are set-ups like this one for Trump's lawyers: "Isn't it true that Trump is completely innocent?" That one was from a Republican. Then a Democrat asks this question of the House Managers: "Isn't it true that Trump incited the insurrection?" Fortunately, they only get five minutes for their answer. It's already dinner time there so maybe we are getting close to the end. Yesterday, they were going to give the senators half an hour for dinner. I guess they were going to bring in some box lunches or something because you can't get from the senate chambers to the cafeteria and back in half an hour. Can you imagine how long it would take a hundred senators to go through the line where they have six choices for dessert? Fortunately, they ended early. I am sort of curious what sort of party favor they were going to put in the box lunches.

And then I was thinking we might want to setup a GoFundMe page so we can raise money and buy these guys some decent ties. Schumer had one on yesterday that was light purple and army green. It was double ugly. You see ties like that in airport gift shops where they are three for $10. Gad. (I hope everyone noticed there that I called out a Democrat's tie.)

[Alan Klein]

Where did you get your figure of "thousands"? I have no idea how many patients the order affected, so you are mistaken when you say I admitted it was thousands. Might be, might not be. I thought most people in that age group died in the hospital, especially in those early days when the doctors didn't have experience threating them. So of those in that age group that did survive, how many were discharged from the hospital while still contagious? And of that group how many were then admitted to nursing homes?  And how many nursing home deaths can be attributed to that group of contagious COVID survivors discharged from the hospital, and not to another resident, healthcare worker or visitor?

Please see my comments above. And again, where did you get your figure of "enormous, certainly in the thousands"? Surely you are relying on some data and not just pulling a number out of the air?

I have said several times that it was an error for Cuomo to have ordered nursing homes to accept COVID patients from hospitals who were still contagious. The order was in effect between March 25, 2020 and May 10, 2020, so we are looking at a finite time period.

We have spent two days whittling down your number of nursing home deaths caused Cuomo's order from 13,000 to now you don't know.

You waste everyone's time with your false facts and logical fallacies.

Your constant charges of calling me a liar are getting old, Frank. Lay off the personal attacks or our conversation ends.  If you have data that contradicts my points or rebuts errors I may have made, or you disagree with my opinions, certainly you should present them.  But implying that I'm a liar is unacceptable. Same goes for Andrew.

Here are the figures that support my previous posts.


AP: Over 9,000 virus patients sent into NY nursing homes
NEW YORK (AP) — More than 9,000 recovering coronavirus patients in New York state were released from hospitals into nursing homes early in the pandemic under a controversial directive that was scrapped amid criticism it accelerated outbreaks, according to new records obtained by The Associated Press.

The new number of 9,056 recovering patients sent to hundreds of nursing homes is more than 40% higher than what the state health department previously released. And it raises new questions as to whether a March 25 directive from Gov. Andrew Cuomo’s administration helped spread sickness and death among residents, a charge the state disputes.

“The lack of transparency and the meting out of bits of important data has undermined our ability to both recognize the scope and severity of what’s going on” and address it, said Richard Mollot, the executive director of the Long Term Care Community Coalition, a residents advocacy group.

The new figures come as the Cuomo administration has been forced in recent weeks to acknowledge i t has been underreporting the overall number of COVID-19 deaths among long-term care residents. It is now nearly 15,000 up from the 8,500 previously disclosed.


https://apnews.com/article/new-york-andrew-cuomo-us-news-coronavirus-pandemic-nursing-homes-512cae0abb55a55f375b3192f2cdd6b5

[faberryman]

Your constant charges of calling me a liar are getting old, Frank. Lay off the personal attacks or our conversation ends.  If you have data that contradicts my points or rebuts errors I may have made, or you disagree with my opinions, certainly you should present them.  But implying that I'm a liar is unacceptable. Same goes for Andrew.

I have never called you a liar. That is another false fact.

If you post false facts, I will point out that they are false facts. If you don't like being told you post false facts, don't post false facts. It is entirely within your control. The same goes for your arguments. If you use logical fallacies in your arguments, I will point out that they are logical fallacies. If you don't like being told you are using logical fallacies in your arguments, don't use logical fallacies in your arguments. Again, it is entirely within your control.

It doesn’t matter to me one way or the other whether you put me on ignore or not. That is entirely your decision.

[digitaldog]

Nobody here ever called you a liar Alan. Never! Further you cannot prove anyone did call you a liar. Just like Donald Trump playing the victim.
You are making stuff up out of thin air; nothing new here.
The last data from an outside reference that you provided here, also proves that you’re making stuff up out of thin air. Again.

[digitaldog]

AP: Over 9,000 virus patients sent into NY nursing homes
NEW YORK (AP) — More than 9,000 recovering coronavirus patients in New York state were released from hospitals into nursing homes early in the pandemic under a controversial directive that was scrapped amid criticism it accelerated outbreaks, according to new records obtained by The Associated Press.

What's 'released early' mean?

Further, what is the number of Americans that have been hospitalized with Covid-19 and how many were sent home/released (early or otherwise once early is defined)?
Further still, anyone paying attention to this pandemic will know, many hospitals were overwhelmed with so many sick from Covid-19 that doctors had to make decisions on who gets a bed or ventilator, etc, and which patients couldn't. Let's say we have a New Yorker, 76 years old (let's name him Fallon) who is making a recovery from Covid-19. He isn't on death's bed. Now a 26 year old pregnant woman comes into that hospital with a severe risk of death for her and her baby. Let her die or send Fallon back to his nursing home (note what that home is called)?

But this is all moot. Did NY send 9000 (or as Alan incorrectly implied 13000) home early? If they did, it doesn't have anything to do with what Alan incorrectly assumed, misunderstood then posted here, still without a lick of proof!

Democrat gov Cuomo of  NY created a situation where 13000 old people died of Covid because of his directives.

 
A lie? No. One as to know they are lying; Alan doesn't know what he's posting about above; it's a massive misunderstanding initially. Now he's just doing his best to ignore the facts, facts that others have provided, facts HE has provided but either still doesn't understand or can't accept. It is why he is often asked after posting something from an outside reference: "did you actually read this?"  I suppose it takes some talent to be a decent liar (Trump is about the best around at least in terms of volume over time). No, Alan isn't a liar; he is just very confused about the facts. About Cuomo, print resolution, updates to software, the list goes on and on. That he can't accept facts (like Trump), that may not be as egregious as a liar, but it is still a very sad and consistent behavior.

At least a number of members here have attempted to provide him the fact (checks). He'll likely put them back on the ignore list. Then he can post misunderstandings without correction which seems to end up being a form of posting masturbation but the guy needs a good hobby.

It is impossible to puncture the unreality bubble surrounding a fact denier. We can only attempt to sway those with open minds to facts. 

[Alan Klein]

I have never called you a liar. That is another false fact.

If you post false facts, I will point out that they are false facts. If you don't like being told you post false facts, don't post false facts. It is entirely within your control. The same goes for your arguments. If you use logical fallacies in your arguments, I will point out that they are logical fallacies. If you don't like being told you are using logical fallacies in your arguments, don't use logical fallacies in your arguments. Again, it is entirely within your control.

It doesn’t matter to me in the least if you put me on ignore. That is entirely your decision.

Nobody here ever called you a liar Alan. Never! Further you cannot prove anyone did call you a liar. Just like Donald Trump playing the victim.
You are making stuff up out of thin air; nothing new here.
The last data from an outside reference that you provided here, also proves that you’re making stuff up out of thin air. Again.

Accusing me of posting "false facts" is calling me a liar.  Stop playing word games.  You too Andrew.  If you feel the facts in an article I posted present different views in your mind, say it.  Then present articles or facts that refute it.  Personal attacks aren't acceptable.

[digitaldog]

Accusing me of posting "false facts" is calling me a liar.

No it isn't. Where did I accuse you of posting false facts or called you a liar?
No, even writing you posted  "false facts" isn't the same as calling you a liar; I've explained the difference and again, you didn't read or understand what was written. You don't know what you don't know. But that you are so confused between the differences of saying you have misunderstandings (again, about many subjects outlined minutes ago) and telling a lie, further illustrates your confusion. People only get mad and defensive about topics when they know they're guilty.
How many outside these forums called you a liar in the past, and hence, when people simply point out you're wrong, you assume they are also calling you liar? This is at least the 2nd time you've accused two different people of calling you a liar when you can't provide a single example of anyone doing so on these forums. And further IF someone called you a liar, you'd have grounds to complain to the moderator. That didn't happen (or the moderator, new or old didn't take you seriously which isn't a surprise). 

If you feel the facts in an article I posted present different views in your mind, say it.

I did. Multiple times. But like the articles you've provided, you either don't read or don't comprehend what's written; members here or the articles!

Personal attacks aren't acceptable.

PROVING someone is wrong isn't a personal attack. Again, if it were, you'd have grounds to complain for moderation. You're simply wrong. Is must be a new concept/behavior you just discovered.
Are all original prints 300dpi, is LR 5 to LR upgrades free, did Democrat gov Cuomo of  NY created a situation where 13000 old people died of Covid because of his directives? ALL those ideas are wrong. All those ideas came from you. What do we owe to people who are guilty of being wrong?

[digitaldog]

More good news:

Steven Roth, founder of Vornado Realty Trust, is considering withholding cash flow from two buildings former President Trump has a 30 percent stake in, according to a source familiar with the matter, and Trump may be forced to sell at a discount.

Video:
https://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/video/trump-s-most-profitable-real-estate-assets-at-risk-100960838001

[Alan Klein]

No it isn't. Where did I accuse you of posting false facts or called you a liar?
No, even writing you posted  "false facts" isn't the same as calling you a liar; I've explained the difference and again, you didn't read or understand what was written. You don't know what you don't know. But that you are so confused between the differences of saying you have misunderstandings (again, about many subjects outlined minutes ago) and telling a lie, further illustrates your confusion. People only get mad and defensive about topics when they know they're guilty.
How many outside these forums called you a liar in the past, and hence, when people simply point out you're wrong, you assume they are also calling you liar? This is at least the 2nd time you've accused two different people of calling you a liar when you can't provide a single example of anyone doing so on these forums. And further IF someone called you a liar, you'd have grounds to complain to the moderator. That didn't happen (or the moderator, new or old didn't take you seriously which isn't a surprise).  ;)I did. Multiple times. But like the articles you've provided, you either don't read or don't comprehend what's written; members here or the articles! PROVING someone is wrong isn't a personal attack. Again, if it were, you'd have grounds to complain for moderation. You're simply wrong. Is this a new concept for you?
Are all original prints 300dpi, is LR 5 to LR upgrades free, did Democrat gov Cuomo of  NY created a situation where 13000 old people died of Covid because of his directives? ALL those ideas are wrong. All those ideas came from you. What do we owe to people who are guilty of being wrong?

You haven't presented one iota of controvertible proof that Cuomo didn't lie about the figures or what he did sending sick people home to infect others.  Your arguments are just tiresome and are just scaring loads of people away from this forum and others.  But it's your haranguing and personal insults and put-downs of everyone you address that are never-ending and the main problem here and on other sites as well.   

[digitaldog]

You haven't presented one iota of controvertible proof that Cuomo didn't lie about the figures or what he did sending sick people home to infect others.  Your arguments are just tiresome and are just scaring loads of people away from this forum and others.  But it's your haranguing and personal insults and put-downs of everyone you address that are never-ending and the main problem here and on other sites as well.

I don't have to present anything other than showing your misunderstanding of what is factual and dismissing what you wrote that no one, anywhere, has stated"

Democrat gov Cuomo of  NY created a situation where 13000 old people died of Covid because of his directives. 

You are writing fiction. You must prove the above is true and you have not nor can you. THE BURDEN OF PROOF OF WHAT YOU WROTE IS ON YOU!. Not me.
I never stated Cuomo lied or didn't. You as usual are moving the goal posts even suggesting that I did. It has nothing to do with the above fiction you wrote and can't prove. Full stop, end of story. This is simply another sign of your desperation. The absurd is the last refuge of a pundit without an argument.

BTW; no doubt.

[faberryman]

Accusing me of posting "false facts" is calling me a liar.

You are mistaken.

[jeremyrh]

Alan - consider for a moment what would happen if Cuomo, or whoever, woke up one morning and said "I'm sick of people badmouthing me on Lula, I'm gonna sue Klein".  What would your defence be?  How much of what you write could you have a chance of proving in a court of law, even in principle?

[Alan Klein]

Alan - consider for a moment what would happen if Cuomo, or whoever, woke up one morning and said "I'm sick of people badmouthing me on Lula, I'm gonna sue Klein".  What would your defence be?  How much of what you write could you have a chance of proving in a court of law, even in principle?

What would you do if Trump sued you?  He could also stop you from golfing at his Scottish courses.  In any case, Cuomo would have to get past thousands of New Yorkers who lost their family members in nursing homes because of his directive and want to see him thrown out of office, or worse.

In any case, just so you know, in the US unlike in England possibly, it's not slander for repeating what was is already reported in the paper. Nor can you be sued for giving your opinion about famous people.  Politicians are always being called crooks.  In any case, by the time this is over, Cuomo's going to have a lot more problems than what's been said in LuLa.

[jeremyrh]

What would you do if Trump sued you?  He could also stop you from golfing at his Scottish courses.  In any case, Cuomo would have to get past thousands of New Yorkers who lost their family members in nursing homes because of his directive and want to see him thrown out of office, or worse.

In any case, just so you know, in the US unlike in England possibly, it's not slander for repeating what was is already reported in the paper. Nor can you be sued for giving your opinion about famous people.  Politicians are always being called crooks.  In any case, by the time this is over, Cuomo's going to have a lot more problems than what's been said in LuLa.

That's not the point, Alan, of course no-one is going to be suing anyone. The point was to suggest to you that you go through the mental exercise of looking at what you write and asking yourself honestly what part of it actually stands scrutiny, and what is just your prejudices dressed up as argument. Try it.

[digitaldog]

What would you do if Trump sued you?  He could also stop you from golfing at his Scottish courses.

No! He would very likely lose. In an actual court of law, something you are unable to provide is required; evidence and facts.

[Alan Klein]

That's not the point, Alan, of course no-one is going to be suing anyone. The point was to suggest to you that you go through the mental exercise of looking at what you write and asking yourself honestly what part of it actually stands scrutiny, and what is just your prejudices dressed up as argument. Try it.

Cuomo directed that sick old people in hospitals be sent back to their homes in nursing and assisted living facilities where they spread Covid.  Many died.  He then hid the numbers who died by under tallying by 50%.  Both these facts have been reported.  His own Attorney General, a Democrat, did the study that reported the 50%. He admitted to both of these although he claimed he sent sick people home because the federal government told him too and the 50% error had no nefarious intent.  No one of consequence any longer supports his claims.

The only question is just how many died.  It's difficult to measure.  It seems upwards of 15,000 died in these facilities. However, how do you know which patient went home spread the disease and to how many residents?  Maybe studies will get to better estimates.  But the fact is thousands of aged people in the facilities died as a result of his directive.  Many here are just quibbling over the exact amount of deaths and ignoring the main issues of Cuomo's incompetence and attempted coverup. What's really disgraceful is how easily the media was fooled, even giving him an Emmy for his public conferences regarding Covid in NY State.  Well, now that I think of it, his performance probably deserved an Emmy.  After all, he fooled so many people who should have known better.  But the media's anti-Trump bias refused to see that Cuomo was the culprit in this disaster, not the president. 

[jeremyrh]

That's not the point, Alan, of course no-one is going to be suing anyone. The point was to suggest to you that you go through the mental exercise of looking at what you write and asking yourself honestly what part of it actually stands scrutiny, and what is just your prejudices dressed up as argument. Try it.

Cuomo directed that sick old people in hospitals be sent back to their homes in nursing and assisted living facilities where they spread Covid.  Many died.  He then hid the numbers who died by under tallying by 50%.  Both these facts have been reported.  His own Attorney General, a Democrat, did the study that reported the 50%. He admitted to both of these although he claimed he sent sick people home because the federal government told him too and the 50% error had no nefarious intent.  No one of consequence any longer supports his claims.

The only question is just how many died.  It's difficult to measure.  It seems upwards of 15,000 died in these facilities. However, how do you know which patient went home spread the disease and to how many residents?  Maybe studies will get to better estimates.  But the fact is thousands of aged people in the facilities died as a result of his directive.  Many here are just quibbling over the exact amount of deaths and ignoring the main issues of Cuomo's incompetence and attempted coverup. What's really disgraceful is how easily the media was fooled, even giving him an Emmy for his public conferences regarding Covid in NY State.  Well, now that I think of it, his performance probably deserved an Emmy.  After all, he fooled so many people who should have known better.  But the media's anti-Trump bias refused to see that Cuomo was the culprit in this disaster, not the president.

Well, i tried, I gave you a chance.  So my only possible conclusion is that you are irredeemable and there is no point in engaging with you. Despite Josh's plea, you haven't changed, so that's it.