US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)

Biden

14 (66.7%)

Trump

7 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Voting closed: November 02, 2020, 06:25:59 pm

[faberryman]

Your response to my post that Pelosi is playing political games and hurting Americans out of work is to call Trump a liar.  Your response is pathological.

The thing is even if I posted a pathological response, that doesn't mean Trump is not a pathological liar. Remember me posting about ad hominen attacks and whataboutism. They are logical fallacies.

[Alan Klein]

How did Biden get us into Iraq?  Was not this a decision by the Bush II administration? 

I seem to recall that our constitution makes congress responsible for going to war.  Biden approved and signed off on it as senator.  As chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee when the authorization vote was cast to go to war, Biden was at the forefront of the debate about what course to pursue with Iraq. See the picture of him on the right watching President Bush signing off on the congressional bill authorizing military action against Iraq. 
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/12/us/politics/joe-biden-iraq-war.html

[Robert Roaldi]

I seem to recall that our constitution makes congress responsible for going to war. 

That's not really observed much though.

[JoeKitchen]

I remember from my physics course in high school this law that said for each action there is an equal and opposite reaction. The thing is that in these discussions, when your write a really effervescent post about one of Trump's accomplishments, I am likely to write an equally anti-effervescent response. Of course, your response to my response is even more effervescent, and my response to your response to my response is even more anti-effervescent. Eventually, we are both cranked up to about eleven, and exasperated, you tell me I have TDS. The thing is I don't have an acronym to call you, so the whole process is unfair. Perhaps if you checked your enthusiasm initially, I wouldn't ultimately have TDS, and we would all get along better. So basically what I am saying is that it is all your fault. The remedy is that when you write about one of Trump's accomplishments, pretend it is one of Biden's accomplishments. That way you can show some restraint, and everything will go more smoothly. And you might even find I agreed with you occasionally. I'd probably be willing to give Trump some blue ribbons, if you weren't always asking for eight foot trophies. Just an idea.

That's a hard task you're asking, pretending Biden has accomplishments. 

47 years in DC and I cant think of any, well maybe the crime bill. 

[faberryman]

Oh and and the bobble guy gave lots of money to Dems.

That explains why Trump invited bobblehead to the debate last night.

[Robert Roaldi]

Of course not! 

I am also not saying a $15 minimum wage during a pandemic while stating we may need to shut down your business is a good idea either, unlike Biden.

Well, you lost me then.

The policy proposal about a minimum wage is at least something that can be discussed.

Threatening to not provide emergency funds to districts that don't vote for you is a pretty repulsive and profoundly stupid idea.

I could not make the connection between the two.

[Alan Klein]

Did you look at the COVID-19 infection level yesterday?  Second highest day of the pandemic!  You also should watch the documentary on Hulu, 'Totally Under Control' for a good view of how well the President handled this.  It has nothing to do with lockdowns other than to keep the hospitals open.  ICU beds in parts of Wisconsin and ND are at capacity right now.  this could have turned out differently had President Trump forcefully embrace the prudent public health measures.  Lockdowns were just a stopgap measure.

Old farts like you and me can wear our masks and stay isolated and let the young folks get on with their lives if they choose and feed their families.

[TechTalk]

Despite the frenzied excitement in some rightwing media circles and their audience, I wouldn't get overly excited about Tony Bobulinski. This article in Politico gives a decent overview of the situation.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/23/Trump's sideshow fizzles out

Excerpts Below

"One of the hallmarks of the Trump era has been his penchant for pushing fringe characters peddling dubious stories into the center ring of our political circus. In the past he has been an effective ringmaster. Whether it’s retweeting conspiracy theorists (that guy who recently alleged Osama bin Laden was still alive), elevating people who believe drinking water is tainted with Prozac that is causing shrimp to commit suicide (Alex Jones), or putting fringe GOP operatives banished from presidential politics on the payroll (Roger Stone), Trump has often delighted — and benefited politically — from turning the sideshow into the main show."

"But so far the Bobulinski allegations seem like bubkes. At 10:47, minutes after the debate ended, the Wall Street Journal, part of the same media empire as Fox News and the Post, reported, “Text messages and emails related to the venture that were provided to the Journal by Mr. Bobulinski, mainly from the spring and summer of 2017, don’t show either Hunter Biden or James Biden” — the former vice president’s brother — “discussing a role for Joe Biden in the venture.”

"Even if Bobulinski is telling the truth, that Joe Biden knew about the China enterprise, it’s not clear what the scandal is — he was a private citizen at the time and not yet running for president. Trump has elevated an unsubstantiated assertion that Biden had knowledge about his son’s legal and failed business venture to a “crime” for which he “should be in jail.” To put in context how absurd this allegation is, one of the first things George W. Bush did after he left the White House was deliver a paid speech in China. Somehow he remains at large."

"Similarly, the Hunter bombshell has so far been defused because Trump’s exaggerations and over-the-top allegations bear no resemblance to the available facts."

"It makes you wonder what Trump could have accomplished this year against Biden if he had focused on what’s front and center to voters and didn’t get so distracted and preoccupied by the sideshow."

[Alan Klein]

I certainly would not be promoting it, but would at least acknowledge the importance of them as game changing. 

But you guys with TDS are so anti-Trump you cant see the forest for the trees.  You cant give him a win, which he clearly deserves here.  I would have given Obama or Biden that win if they even accomplished half of what Trump has in the Middle East. 

You're spitting into the wind.  Hell would have to freeze over before they'll give Trump credit for anything.  I don't understand why they're so bitter?

[Alan Klein]

We can bring it back.  Boblewhats his name was asked by the FBI for an interview today.  Scuttlebutt is they are using Hunters laptop in a money laundering investigation.

Oh and and the bobble guy gave lots of money to Dems. 

Joe might have been right, he didn't take a cent from any country, perhaps Hunter did, he was the bagman. 

Well, if Biden wins, he could pardon his son.

[Alan Klein]

Maybe the elephant in the room as it regards the Middle East is oil.  We are not held hostage by their oil any longer.

That's a great point.  The 1973 oil crisis was set off by the Israeli Arab war at that time.  It caused major disruption of economies throughout the western world including the US when the Arab oil countries flexed their muscles and shut down a lot of oil to the world to pressure Israel and their western supporters. But the Arabs would not have been able to do it if America was oil independent.  Now, they've lost that power.  However, if Biden wins and shuts down oil here in he US as he's promised, it will bolster the Arabs against us and put our economies at risk again.  Wars could break out again there. 

[Alan Klein]

The thing is even if I posted a pathological response, that doesn't mean Trump is not a pathological liar. Remember me posting about ad hominen attacks and whataboutism. They are logical fallacies.

You've created a straw man.  We're talking about Pelosi hurting Americans.

[faberryman]

To argue it's meaningless is crazy. For 70 years, there have been four wars between Arabs and Jews.

For clarity, would you specify which Arab states were in on the shooting. UAE?. Bahrain? Sudan?   

The world suffered through the oil crisis of 1973.  I'm sure you remember the long lines of cars lining up for gasoline on alternate days of the week due to shortages.  The world always held their breath that another war would break out and drag the world into it.

I remember the oil crisis of 1973. I wasn't all that happy about having to wait in line for gas, or being able to buy it only on certain days*, and I really wasn't all that happy that I had to pay dollars instead of cents for a gallon of the stuff, but I adapted to it kind of like how I have adapted to wearing a mask. I was never holding my "breath that another war would break out and drag the world into it." I view that as being alarmist, and I try to avoid that. I generally get worked up when things are likely, not just possible. Kind of like I am not all that worried that an asteroid is going to hit the earth before election day as predicted by Neil deGrasse Tyson, who is normally thought of as a pretty credible guy, although occasionally he will slip off into the deep end without his floaties, just as I am not worried about all the stuff Pat Robertson says is going to happen will happen, because nothing he says ever does. I mean some or all of it may happen, but there is not a whole lot I can do about it either way.

* Just so you young folks don't think us old guys were dolts, there were ways around this. As I recall, if you had a license plate ending in an even number you could buy gas MWF. If your license plate ended in an odd number, you could buy gas TTS.  So what you did was to head on down to the DMV and tell them your license plates fell off and you needed to buy a new set, and you kept doing that until you had both even numbered and odd numbered plates. That way you could buy gas any day you wanted just by changing your plates. I was too cheap to buy extra plates, so I just got my gas on the appointed day. The reason I mention this is that if people were dicking around with their license plates, they probably weren't worried all that much about WWIII, but I would concede that maybe a few people were.

[Alan Klein]

That's not really observed much though.

The constitution was observed with Bush in Iraq.  Congress approved military action giving Bush the legal and constitutional authority to go to war.  And Biden was in charge of the Senate committee that authorized it. He can't slither away from his responsibility as he's tried.

[faberryman]

You're spitting into the wind.  Hell would have to freeze over before they'll give Trump credit for anything.  I don't understand why they're so bitter?

I really take offense at all the lying.

[Alan Klein]

For clarity, would you specify which Arab states were in on the shooting. UAE?. Bahrain? Sudan?   

I remember the oil crisis of 1973. I wasn't all that happy about having to wait in line for gas, or being unable to buy it only on certain days, and I really wasn't all that happy that I had to pay dollars instead of cents for a gallon of the stuff, but I adapted to it kind of like how I have adapted to wearing a mask. I was never holding my "breath that another war would break out and drag the world into it." I view that as being alarmist, and I try to avoid that. I generally get worked up when things are likely, not just possible. Kind of like I am not all that worried that an asteroid is going to hit the earth before election day as predicted by Neil deGrasse Tyson, just as I am not worried about all the stuff Pat Robertson say is going to happen happens. I mean some or all of it may happen, but there is not a whole lot I can do about it either way.

You forgot Jordan and Egypt fought with Israel a number of times.  Of course, they already have peace treaties with Israel for 27 years.  Now they're adding three more Arab states who were sworn enemies of Israel if not former combatants with the help of the Trump administration.  The rest of the Arab world is turning to the future. Most people see that as a good thing even if you pan it. Next year, regardless of who wins the presidency, you'll see the Saudi's do it as well. The only big state that may delay is Syria.  But they're a basket case and have more things to worry about than Palestinians and Israelis.

[MattBurt]

I really take offense at all the lying.

The lying is huge but then stuff like self-dealing from his nonprofit, which is literally stealing money from charities takes it to another level.

[faberryman]

You forgot Jordan and Egypt fought with Israel a number of times.  Of course, they already have peace treaties with Israel for 27 years. 

So exactly which Arab states have been in a shooting war with Israel and don't currently have a peace treaty with them.

[TechTalk]

A little more regarding Tony Bobulinski. Poor Tony is not in a happy place financially at the moment. 10 days ago, a U.S. District Court gave a company (unrelated to his failed business venture with Hunter which never got off the ground) called China Branding Group Limited a right to attach order which gives them authorization to seize Tony's property and assets for a little over $649,000 due in unpaid court ordered payment from an earlier lawsuit over a business venture.

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/17390317/40/china-branding-group-limited-v-tony-bobulinski/

In that lawsuit Bobulinski claimed he was due money back on his investment, but the court disagreed. He appealed and not only didn't get his investment money back but ended up owing a significant sum to the company. The appeals court had some major problems with Bobulinski's evidence which primarily consisted of text messages and his personal recollection of conversations with his business partner Adam Roseman. It appears that Bobulinski didn't do any of the normal due diligence in seeking legal counsel regarding his investment and relationship with the company.

The parallels between that case and his business dealing with Hunter Biden is that in both cases he felt that he was due something which he didn't get and that both Chinese ventures went bankrupt. With Hunter, Bobulinski appears to be upset that Hunter had other business interests in China to which he wasn't a party and the venture that he was part of failed to materialize as he was unable to get the neccessary funding from CEFC China Energy to fund the start-up.

As a side note... Jacqui Heinrich, National Reporter for Fox News and part of their Democracy 2020 reporting team, put out a tweet on Bobulinski's evidence.

"I completed searching all of Tony Bobulinski’s emails. They establish:
• the “Chairman” is China.
• NO ROLE for Joe Biden in emails/docs
• Tony Bobulinski states himself there are NO OTHER MEMBERS besides Hunter Biden, Jim Biden, Rob Walker, James Gillar, and Bobulinski"

https://twitter.com/JacquiHeinrich/status/Tony Bobulinski’s emails

[faberryman]

You've created a straw man.  We're talking about Pelosi hurting Americans.

Look up the straw man fallacy, quote the definition, and explain how anything I have said is a straw man.