Poll

Who do you think will be sworn in as President on Jan. 21?

Biden
- 14 (66.7%)
Trump
- 7 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Voting closed: November 02, 2020, 06:25:59 pm


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Author Topic: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)  (Read 110491 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2880 on: October 23, 2020, 07:15:26 pm »

So exactly which Arab states have been in a shooting war with Israel and don't currently have a peace treaty with them.
I believe Iraq, Lebanon and Syria, maybe others.  But it's not only peace treaties with former combatants.  It's diplomatic relations that are being established with countries such as Sudan, the UAR, etc. who have been hostile to them.  Additionally, Israel has been given a hard time with trade by many western nations.  If Arab countries and Israel have diplomatic and trade relations, these things go away which is good for everyone.  Turkey, although not Arab, officially has no relations with Israel.  However, we know that both countries work together on security arrangements.  If major Arab countries start making deals with Israel, Turkey too might make the relations public.  I'm sure you'd want to see conflicts in the ME end, wouldn't you?

TechTalk

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2881 on: October 23, 2020, 07:20:27 pm »

Also from Fox News National Reporter Jacqui Heinrich twitter feed regarding Hunter Biden laptop emails...

FBI indicates it IS investigating POSSIBILITY of foreign interference on Hunter Biden laptop: “nothing to add” to Ratcliffe’s claim that it’s NOT Russian disinfo, adding if actionable intel develops, FBI *may* inform Homeland Security Cmte

Democratic official with knowledge of intelligence committee discussions tells me:

"The FBI will not confirm exactly what they are investigating – adding that this may relate to the ongoing investigation around Rudy Giuliani that has been recently reported...

...However, members of the intelligence committee have learned that the FBI is indeed investigating the provenance of the emails and whether it is part of a foreign disinformation operation – which the FBI would investigate whether or not the emails are real...

..The FBI’s handling of John Paul Mac Isaac indicates he is a target of the investigation, rather than a witness. Mac Isaac stated that he met with the FBI once or twice, then the FBI stopped talking to him...

...There is bipartisan skepticism surrounding Ratcliffe’s statement on Sunday, and this democratic source says they believe Ratcliffe was trying to state that the FBI has not confirmed that this is disinformation, as Adam Schiff suggested...

...However, Ratcliffe went too far in trying to provide political cover in support of the President, which is an inappropriate action for a DNI.

Ratcliffe is showing inexperience with intelligence by saying that the lack of intel proves there is no involvement...

...Folks within the FBI who are looking into this matter very much suspect, but do not know for sure, if foreign powers are at play...

...This source adds, members of both parties within the senate intelligence committee are skeptical of the idea that we would know definitively, at this time, the matter is not part of a foreign intel op - because has all the hallmarks of a potential foreign intel op...

... Regarding the FBI’s statement that they have “nothing to add” to Ratcliffe’s statement: They understand this to mean FBI has nothing to add about *available actionable intelligence* at this time, but the investigation is ongoing – not understand it as affirming Ratcliffe.

Finally - per my talks with sources tonight - Big bipartisan takeaway verified by Republican & Dem sides: as of now, investigators have revealed no evidence showing that this is a Russian disinfo campaign – but the investigation is ongoing, and it has not been ruled out. END.

https://twitter.com/JacquiHeinrich/FBI indicates it IS investigating POSSIBILITY of foreign interference on Hunter Biden laptop
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JoeKitchen

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2882 on: October 23, 2020, 07:22:07 pm »

A little more regarding Tony Bobulinski. Poor Tony is not in a happy place financially at the moment. 10 days ago, a U.S. District Court gave a company (unrelated to his failed business venture with Hunter which never got off the ground) called China Branding Group Limited a right to attach order which gives them authorization to seize Tony's property and assets for a little over $649,000 due in unpaid court ordered payment from an earlier lawsuit over a business venture.

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/17390317/40/china-branding-group-limited-v-tony-bobulinski/

In that lawsuit Bobulinski claimed he was due money back on his investment, but the court disagreed. He appealed and not only didn't get his investment money back but ended up owing a significant sum to the company. The appeals court had some major problems with Bobulinski's evidence which primarily consisted of text messages and his personal recollection of conversations with his business partner Adam Roseman. It appears that Bobulinski didn't do any of the normal due diligence in seeking legal counsel regarding his investment and relationship with the company.

The parallels between that case and his business dealing with Hunter Biden is that in both cases he felt that he was due something which he didn't get and that both Chinese ventures went bankrupt. With Hunter, Bobulinski appears to be upset that Hunter had other business interests in China to which he wasn't a party and the venture that he was part of failed to materialize as he was unable to get the neccessary funding from CEFC China Energy to fund the start-up.

As a side note... Jacqui Heinrich, National Reporter for Fox News and part of their Democracy 2020 reporting team, put out a tweet on Bobulinski's evidence.

"I completed searching all of Tony Bobulinski’s emails. They establish:
• the “Chairman” is China.
• NO ROLE for Joe Biden in emails/docs
• Tony Bobulinski states himself there are NO OTHER MEMBERS besides Hunter Biden, Jim Biden, Rob Walker, James Gillar, and Bobulinski"

https://twitter.com/JacquiHeinrich/status/Tony Bobulinski’s emails

Ad Hominem much? 

So instead of attacking the information, which has not yet been denied by anyone in the Biden campaign, attack the messenger on a personal basis. 
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Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2883 on: October 23, 2020, 07:25:28 pm »

A little more regarding Tony Bobulinski. Poor Tony is not in a happy place financially at the moment. 10 days ago, a U.S. District Court gave a company (unrelated to his failed business venture with Hunter which never got off the ground) called China Branding Group Limited a right to attach order which gives them authorization to seize Tony's property and assets for a little over $649,000 due in unpaid court ordered payment from an earlier lawsuit over a business venture.

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/17390317/40/china-branding-group-limited-v-tony-bobulinski/

In that lawsuit Bobulinski claimed he was due money back on his investment, but the court disagreed. He appealed and not only didn't get his investment money back but ended up owing a significant sum to the company. The appeals court had some major problems with Bobulinski's evidence which primarily consisted of text messages and his personal recollection of conversations with his business partner Adam Roseman. It appears that Bobulinski didn't do any of the normal due diligence in seeking legal counsel regarding his investment and relationship with the company.

The parallels between that case and his business dealing with Hunter Biden is that in both cases he felt that he was due something which he didn't get and that both Chinese ventures went bankrupt. With Hunter, Bobulinski appears to be upset that Hunter had other business interests in China to which he wasn't a party and the venture that he was part of failed to materialize as he was unable to get the neccessary funding from CEFC China Energy to fund the start-up.

As a side note... Jacqui Heinrich, National Reporter for Fox News and part of their Democracy 2020 reporting team, put out a tweet on Bobulinski's evidence.

"I completed searching all of Tony Bobulinski’s emails. They establish:
• the “Chairman” is China.
• NO ROLE for Joe Biden in emails/docs
• Tony Bobulinski states himself there are NO OTHER MEMBERS besides Hunter Biden, Jim Biden, Rob Walker, James Gillar, and Bobulinski"

https://twitter.com/JacquiHeinrich/status/Tony Bobulinski’s emails

But the issue is Hunter used his father, Air Force 2 and the office of the VP to advance his son's business interests.  VP Biden met with these officials advancing his son;s business interests.  Your Bubbi... points just confirms there was a business deal even if Joe Biden wasn't a listed member of the deal. For a guy who complained about how Eric and Don Jr used Donald's position as president for their business interests, you seem to shrug your shoulders and lose interest with this Biden deal.  You seem to have different standards depending on whose ox is being gored.

Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2884 on: October 23, 2020, 07:27:49 pm »

Look up the straw man fallacy, quote the definition, and explain how anything I have said is a straw man.
You changed the subject and didn't address my points.  Call it what you want.

John Camp

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2885 on: October 23, 2020, 07:31:14 pm »

Ad Hominem much? 

So instead of attacking the information, which has not yet been denied by anyone in the Biden campaign, attack the messenger on a personal basis.

You need to look up the meaning of ad hominem -- but wait, I think that's been said earlier in this thread. An Ad Hominem attack would say that the evidence doesn't count because Bobu is an asshole. Whether or not he's an asshole doesn't go directly to the question of whether he's credible. (That's only valid in the case of Giuliani.) However, pointing out Boba's other business failures, including reliance on "text messages" as proof, discounted by the court, does go to the credibility of the man.

I would think the Biden campaign people would need access to the evidence before they deny it, and nobody has suggested they have that.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2886 on: October 23, 2020, 07:31:32 pm »

But the issue is Hunter used his father, Air Force 2 and the office of the VP to advance his son's business interests.  VP Biden met with these officials advancing his son;s business interests.  Your Bubbi... points just confirms there was a business deal even if Joe Biden wasn't a listed member of the deal. For a guy who complained about how Eric and Don Jr used Donald's position as president for their business interests, you seem to shrug your shoulders and lose interest with this Biden deal.  You seem to have different standards depending on whose ox is being gored.

For some who did a "no malarkey" tour, he sure is knee deep in it now. 
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Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2887 on: October 23, 2020, 07:32:51 pm »

Also from Fox News National Reporter Jacqui Heinrich twitter feed regarding Hunter Biden laptop emails...

FBI indicates it IS investigating POSSIBILITY of foreign interference on Hunter Biden laptop: “nothing to add” to Ratcliffe’s claim that it’s NOT Russian disinfo, adding if actionable intel develops, FBI *may* inform Homeland Security Cmte

Democratic official with knowledge of intelligence committee discussions tells me:

"The FBI will not confirm exactly what they are investigating – adding that this may relate to the ongoing investigation around Rudy Giuliani that has been recently reported...

...However, members of the intelligence committee have learned that the FBI is indeed investigating the provenance of the emails and whether it is part of a foreign disinformation operation – which the FBI would investigate whether or not the emails are real...

..The FBI’s handling of John Paul Mac Isaac indicates he is a target of the investigation, rather than a witness. Mac Isaac stated that he met with the FBI once or twice, then the FBI stopped talking to him...

...There is bipartisan skepticism surrounding Ratcliffe’s statement on Sunday, and this democratic source says they believe Ratcliffe was trying to state that the FBI has not confirmed that this is disinformation, as Adam Schiff suggested...

...However, Ratcliffe went too far in trying to provide political cover in support of the President, which is an inappropriate action for a DNI.

Ratcliffe is showing inexperience with intelligence by saying that the lack of intel proves there is no involvement...

...Folks within the FBI who are looking into this matter very much suspect, but do not know for sure, if foreign powers are at play...

...This source adds, members of both parties within the senate intelligence committee are skeptical of the idea that we would know definitively, at this time, the matter is not part of a foreign intel op - because has all the hallmarks of a potential foreign intel op...

... Regarding the FBI’s statement that they have “nothing to add” to Ratcliffe’s statement: They understand this to mean FBI has nothing to add about *available actionable intelligence* at this time, but the investigation is ongoing – not understand it as affirming Ratcliffe.

Finally - per my talks with sources tonight - Big bipartisan takeaway verified by Republican & Dem sides: as of now, investigators have revealed no evidence showing that this is a Russian disinfo campaign – but the investigation is ongoing, and it has not been ruled out. END.

https://twitter.com/JacquiHeinrich/FBI indicates it IS investigating POSSIBILITY of foreign interference on Hunter Biden laptop

Well, if the Russians didn't do it, maybe Trump hired British spy Steele of Clinton dossier fame to fabricate the emails on a MI6 laptop. 

John Camp

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2888 on: October 23, 2020, 07:33:29 pm »

But the issue is Hunter used his father, Air Force 2 and the office of the VP to advance his son's business interests. VP Biden met with these officials advancing his son;s business interests. Your Bubbi... points just confirms there was a business deal even if Joe Biden wasn't a listed member of the deal. For a guy who complained about how Eric and Don Jr used Donald's position as president for their business interests, you seem to shrug your shoulders and lose interest with this Biden deal.  You seem to have different standards depending on whose ox is being gored.

Really? I'd like to read the article that says this. Unless you wrote the article, which case I don't need to see it.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2889 on: October 23, 2020, 07:34:20 pm »

You need to look up the meaning of ad hominem -- but wait, I think that's been said earlier in this thread. An Ad Hominem attack would say that the evidence doesn't count because Bobu is an asshole. Whether or not he's an asshole doesn't go directly to the question of whether he's credible. (That's only valid in the case of Giuliani.) However, pointing out Boba's other business failures, including reliance on "text messages" as proof, discounted by the court, does go to the credibility of the man.

I would think the Biden campaign people would need access to the evidence before they deny it, and nobody has suggested they have that.

Ad Hominem: (of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.  As in directing attention to personal information (not necessarily that he is an asshole) instead of towards the argument. 

Although Ad Hominem could be calling someone an asshole or a horrible person, it is much broader then that. 

You are using an Ad Hominem argument as a distraction, and not arguing with relevant information. 
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Craig Lamson

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2890 on: October 23, 2020, 07:39:44 pm »

A little more regarding Tony Bobulinski. Poor Tony is not in a happy place financially at the moment. 10 days ago, a U.S. District Court gave a company (unrelated to his failed business venture with Hunter which never got off the ground) called China Branding Group Limited a right to attach order which gives them authorization to seize Tony's property and assets for a little over $649,000 due in unpaid court ordered payment from an earlier lawsuit over a business venture.

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/17390317/40/china-branding-group-limited-v-tony-bobulinski/

In that lawsuit Bobulinski claimed he was due money back on his investment, but the court disagreed. He appealed and not only didn't get his investment money back but ended up owing a significant sum to the company. The appeals court had some major problems with Bobulinski's evidence which primarily consisted of text messages and his personal recollection of conversations with his business partner Adam Roseman. It appears that Bobulinski didn't do any of the normal due diligence in seeking legal counsel regarding his investment and relationship with the company.

The parallels between that case and his business dealing with Hunter Biden is that in both cases he felt that he was due something which he didn't get and that both Chinese ventures went bankrupt. With Hunter, Bobulinski appears to be upset that Hunter had other business interests in China to which he wasn't a party and the venture that he was part of failed to materialize as he was unable to get the neccessary funding from CEFC China Energy to fund the start-up.

As a side note... Jacqui Heinrich, National Reporter for Fox News and part of their Democracy 2020 reporting team, put out a tweet on Bobulinski's evidence.

"I completed searching all of Tony Bobulinski’s emails. They establish:
• the “Chairman” is China.
• NO ROLE for Joe Biden in emails/docs
• Tony Bobulinski states himself there are NO OTHER MEMBERS besides Hunter Biden, Jim Biden, Rob Walker, James Gillar, and Bobulinski"

https://twitter.com/JacquiHeinrich/status/Tony Bobulinski’s emails

Nothing new in that little piece Wilfred.  The lawsuit is well known.  Lawsuits happen all the time.


Now the emails.  What emails?   Emails from Hunter Biden computer?  Emails from Bobulinski’s devices?  Without that context that tweet is pretty much a nothing burger.

« Last Edit: October 23, 2020, 07:42:57 pm by Craig Lamson »
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Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2891 on: October 23, 2020, 07:52:29 pm »

Really? I'd like to read the article that says this. Unless you wrote the article, which case I don't need to see it.
I found this.  There's also a picture of Hunter and his wife with Joe Biden getting off AF2 in China.  Hunter should have taken a commercial PanAM and met the banker when his father wasn't there.  Classic influence peddling.

What is known about Hunter's dealings in China?
In 2013, Hunter flew aboard Air Force Two with his father, who was then vice-president, on an official visit to Beijing, where the younger Biden met investment banker Jonathan Li.

Hunter told the New Yorker he just met Mr Li for "a cup of coffee", but 12 days after the trip a private equity fund, BHR Partners, was approved by the Chinese authorities. Mr Li was chief executive and Hunter was a board member. He would hold a 10% stake.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-54553132

TechTalk

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2892 on: October 23, 2020, 08:05:05 pm »

Ad Hominem much? 

So instead of attacking the information, which has not yet been denied by anyone in the Biden campaign, attack the messenger on a personal basis. 

If that's how you see it. That's up to you.

It appears that the history, potential financial or other motives, timing, and credibility of someone making assertions and accusations isn't important to you. That's up to you too.

I didn't "attack" Bobulinski or his "information". I simply pointed out that all of his personal property and assets are subject to Federal Court ordered seizure as of 10 days ago and the circumstances behind it. I also linked to reporting from a Fox News reporter regarding the "evidence" that he has provided.

So far, although there has been a great deal of excitement from Trump and right-wing media that Hunter Biden's personal life and business dealings would somehow create an election problem for Joe Biden, there has yet to be any evidence that Hunter Biden's business dealings were illegal in any way. Two Republican lead Senate investigations came up with a determination that they were "awkward", but awkward is some distance from illegal the last time I looked at a map. And nowhere has there been any evidence that Joe Biden did anything except carry out official U.S. policy as Vice-President as he was directed and which in the case of Ukraine had bipartisan support in addition to that of our allies in the EU. But, I have no doubt that the smear campaign will continue unabated and will be eagerly consumed and parroted by some and that any and all "information" that doesn't fit their narrative will be ignored, dismissed, or even attacked with a how-dare-you attitude.
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TechTalk

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2893 on: October 23, 2020, 08:10:23 pm »

For a guy who complained about how Eric and Don Jr used Donald's position as president for their business interests

You're making a completely false allegation toward me. I don't know that I've ever mentioned Eric or Don Jr. and I damn sure know that I've never "complained about how Eric and Don Jr used Donald's position as president for their business interests".
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Craig Lamson

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2894 on: October 23, 2020, 08:19:41 pm »

I found this.  There's also a picture of Hunter and his wife with Joe Biden getting off AF2 in China.  Hunter should have taken a commercial PanAM and met the banker when his father wasn't there.  Classic influence peddling.

What is known about Hunter's dealings in China?
In 2013, Hunter flew aboard Air Force Two with his father, who was then vice-president, on an official visit to Beijing, where the younger Biden met investment banker Jonathan Li.

Hunter told the New Yorker he just met Mr Li for "a cup of coffee", but 12 days after the trip a private equity fund, BHR Partners, was approved by the Chinese authorities. Mr Li was chief executive and Hunter was a board member. He would hold a 10% stake.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-54553132

Hunter Biden flew on  411 times to 29  countries with SS

https://www.judicialwatch.org/press-releases/hunter-biden-flights/
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faberryman

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2895 on: October 23, 2020, 08:20:25 pm »

Well, if the Russians didn't do it, maybe Trump hired British spy Steele of Clinton dossier fame to fabricate the emails on a MI6 laptop.

Good point. I guess that's possible. It's at least as credible as some of the other stuff.
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faberryman

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2896 on: October 23, 2020, 08:24:16 pm »

I beleieve Iraq, Lebanon and Syria, maybe others.  But it's not only peace treaties with former combatants.  It's diplomatic relations that are being established with countries such as Sudan, the UAR, etc. who have been hostile to them.  Additionally, Israel has been given a hard time with trade by many western nations.  If Arab countries and Israel have diplomatic and trade relations, these things go away which is good for everyone.  Turkey, although not Arab, officially has no relations with Israel.  However, we know that both countries work together on security arrangements.  If major Arab countries start making deals with Israel, Turkey too might make the relations public.  I'm sure you'd want to see conflicts in the ME end, wouldn't you?

A guy once told me that if your aunt had balls she'd be your uncle. I frequently think about that when I read posts like these.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2020, 08:37:56 pm by faberryman »
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Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2897 on: October 23, 2020, 08:28:02 pm »

You're making a completely false allegation toward me. I don't know that I've ever mentioned Eric or Don Jr. and I damn sure know that I've never "complained about how Eric and Don Jr used Donald's position as president for their business interests".
I'm sorry that I accused you.  But the charges against them have been constant here in the forums and I thought you were one of them.  It seems people complained about Trump businesses which were all privately developed before he even entered politics.  But they care little about Biden and his son's activities while Biden held public office for over forty years.  The doubled standard is obscene. Again, I'm glad you're not one of them and apologize for accusing you.

Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2898 on: October 23, 2020, 08:31:23 pm »

Hunter Biden flew on  411 times to 29  countries with SS

https://www.judicialwatch.org/press-releases/hunter-biden-flights/
Gee I wonder if Joe and Hunter ever talked business during all those flights on AF2?

Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2899 on: October 23, 2020, 08:35:42 pm »

Hunter Biden flew on  411 times to 29  countries with SS

https://www.judicialwatch.org/press-releases/hunter-biden-flights/
From the article:

NBC reporter Josh Lederman, who was one of four reporters on the December 2013 trip, noted in an October 2, 2019 report that, “What wasn’t known then was that as he accompanied his father to China, Hunter Biden was forming a Chinese private equity fund that associates said at the time was planning to raise big money, including from China.”

During the last year and a half of the Obama administration, Hunter Biden served on the board of Ukrainian energy firm Burisma Holdings while his father was heading up Ukraine policy. Judicial Watch is seeking records through six lawsuits and dozens of FOIA requests related to Hunter Biden’s dealings with the Ukrainian Burisma Holdings and the Chinese BHR Partners.
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