Poll

Who do you think will be sworn in as President on Jan. 21?

Biden
- 14 (66.7%)
Trump
- 7 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Voting closed: November 02, 2020, 06:25:59 pm


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Author Topic: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)  (Read 110486 times)

faberryman

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2500 on: October 17, 2020, 03:11:24 pm »

Refute the facts if you can.

I didn't know there were any facts yet. A few people have said some stuff, but that's about it. You can't believe everything you read.

For example, just because someone said there was a Trump pee-pee tape, doesn't mean there actually was a Trump pee-pee tape. I never believed there was a Trump pee-pee tape. Too far-fetched. But it was sort of funny in an adolescent kind of way. I'm glad the Senate Intelligence Committee never corroborated the Trump pee-pee tape. Can you imagine having to actually watch the Trump pee-pee tape played during nationally televised hearings? It wouldn't have been the Senate's finest hour. I hope the Senate doesn't corroborate the Hunter Biden sex tapes, the ones where he abuses underage Chinese girls. I don't want to watch those either.

So I am just going to take a wait and see attitude. My initial reaction is that the story is too far-fetched to be believable. But we'll just have to see.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2020, 06:18:11 pm by faberryman »
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Craig Lamson

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2501 on: October 17, 2020, 03:15:51 pm »

If any of this was the least bit true don't you think Attorney General Barr would have been visiting the FBI and demanded that this be given top priority?

How do you know they have not?  "Unnamed sources" say the Feds are investigating the emails to see if they are part of a disinformation program.  When asked they had no comment, saying they don't comment on ongoing investigations.

So whats your excuse now?

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If you want to continue to believe in fairy tales go ahead.  Rudy Giuliani has been discredited so many times that I have lost count.


The Washington Post has fact checked what we know to date:  https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/10/14/hunter-bidens-alleged-laptop-an-explainer/

Columnist David Ignatius has a piece on this in today's paper:  https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-truth-behind-the-hunter-biden-non-scandal/2020/10/16/798210bc-0fd1-11eb-8074-0e943a91bf08_story.html

So the Ministry of Truth has spoken and Alan has decided its all a Fairy Tale.  That speaks volumes.

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You can call fake news and I can too.  Unless you have a good response to the question I ask, this conversation is over.

As I said in an eariler post, I don't know if this story is true or not.  But its quite telling that the Left has pulled out all the stops to try and bury and discredit the story without much investigation. 

Its going to take people with intellectual honesty to work through the current facts and what may be coming to find the truth.  The current tactic of shooting the messanger is also quite a tell.   That intellectual honestly is almost completely lacking in the Left on this issue.

Disengage if thats your perogative.

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Manoli

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2502 on: October 17, 2020, 03:18:36 pm »

I thought that nut job conspiracy hoax creator's name sounded familiar...

Thanks for the heads-up.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2503 on: October 17, 2020, 03:19:02 pm »

If I’m to align myself with your and Alan’s interpretation of the status quo, then I’m to believe that the FBI (and by association the CIA) are incompetent / politically motivated / corrupt - any one or all three. Not exactly within the competence bounds of the press.

Given that this all stems from a ‘Giuliani got suckered’ foot-in-mouth moment, I’d tend to believe the US Intelligence services - as and when they report on what, so far, is a non-issue. Prima facie it seems the NY Post and Giuliani have a lot more to answer for than Joe Biden’s son.

It has been proven that the FBI is less that honest and incompetent. And they are politically motivated. 

Actually the Intelligence Community has not offered any assessment of these emails yet so what exactly are you believing?

 
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Craig Lamson

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2504 on: October 17, 2020, 03:21:44 pm »

There are facts?

Many.  You should look. You seem to have plenty of time to google.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2505 on: October 17, 2020, 03:24:45 pm »

why should anyone be covering a “scandal” that literally amounts to “Presidential Candidate’s idiot kid was lobbyist.”

How about Democratic Presidential Candidate may have been accepting cash for access.

Would that warrant coverage?
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Craig Lamson

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2506 on: October 17, 2020, 03:38:47 pm »

Dear Lord, If Adam Shiff says its the Russians it must be true!

The Left is sooo smart!

Byron York

On CNN, Intelligence Committee chair Adam Schiff says New York Post Hunter Biden story 'comes from the Kremlin.' Anchor seems to agree. Would be more persuasive if they provided evidence that 1) story is false, and 2) it 'comes from the Kremlin.'

https://twitter.com/ByronYork/status/1317432785070706688/photo/1
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TechTalk

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2507 on: October 17, 2020, 03:39:13 pm »

Trump "may have been" the super-secret head of the Mafia's Five Families in New York or an astronaut on a Russian space mission to spy on the United States.

Would that warrant coverage?

Meh... probably not. Probably would need verification and vetting first.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2508 on: October 17, 2020, 03:52:10 pm »

Trump "may have been" the super-secret head of the Mafia's Five Families in New York or an astronaut on a Russian space mission to spy on the United States.

Would that warrant coverage?

Meh... probably not. Probably would need verification and vetting first.

From the Left, yes that would warrant coverage and days of it.  All you need is a couple of "unnamed sources". Its SOP.

When it comes to Biden,  we do have two corraborating emails but who's counting.  Keep trying Wilfred, maybe you can keep googling and find the facvts.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2509 on: October 17, 2020, 03:57:23 pm »

The point I was making was you were ready to accept everything bad about Trump but are willing to give Biden a pass for similar type of evidence. 
Let me clarify for you pretty simply.  I was not a Clinton supporter and thought when the email stuff surfaced that she would have a difficult time winning.  When Wiener's laptop ended up having all the emails on it because of Huma Abedine's stupidity that sealed it.  I never had any faith at all in the Steele dossier and the Hunter Biden stuff is even weaker as the Steele piece did have some truthful points in it.  I don't give anybody a pass and never have.  I will not vote for serial liars ever.

Is this clear enough?
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2510 on: October 17, 2020, 03:59:11 pm »

Disengage if thats your perogative.
Yup, that's what I will do.  Delusions are not my cup of tea.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2511 on: October 17, 2020, 04:01:42 pm »

Yup, that's what I will do.  Delusions are not my cup of tea.

How about intellectual honesty?
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TechTalk

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2512 on: October 17, 2020, 04:08:00 pm »

I wonder if the polling for Trump and other Republicans would be better if they didn't spend so much time running against Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, Hunter Biden, the FBI, U.S. National Intelligence Agencies, scientists, and journalists; while at the same time playing footsie with militia groups, retweeting hoaxes and conspiracies (just a retweet, I take no responsibility for what it says), peddling disinformation from known Russian Intelligence agents, praising Vladimir Putin, denying responsibility and finger pointing for any problem, and making ridiculous extravagant claims and instead focused on presenting solutions to problems that ordinary Americans face in their daily lives.
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James Clark

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2513 on: October 17, 2020, 04:14:52 pm »

I wonder if the polling for Trump and other Republicans would be better if they didn't spend so much time running against Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, Hunter Biden, the FBI, U.S. National Intelligence Agencies, scientists, and journalists; while at the same time playing footsie with militia groups, retweeting hoaxes and conspiracies (just a retweet, I take no responsibility for what it says), peddling disinformation from known Russian Intelligence agents, praising Vladimir Putin, denying responsibility and finger pointing for any problem, and making ridiculous extravagant claims and instead focused on presenting solutions to problems that ordinary Americans face in their daily lives.

They do. They're going to build a wall to keep out murders and rapists Mexicans, and there's been a health care plan that will be revealed in two weeks for four years now.  (I hear they're also saving protections for people with preexisting conditions by trying to invalidate protections for people with preexisting conditions, but I have to confess that I find that one a little confusing.)
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Craig Lamson

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2514 on: October 17, 2020, 04:17:19 pm »

I wonder if the polling for Trump and other Republicans would be better if they didn't spend so much time running against Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, Hunter Biden, the FBI, U.S. National Intelligence Agencies, scientists, and journalists; while at the same time playing footsie with militia groups, retweeting hoaxes and conspiracies (just a retweet, I take no responsibility for what it says), peddling disinformation from known Russian Intelligence agents, praising Vladimir Putin, denying responsibility and finger pointing for any problem, and making ridiculous extravagant claims and instead focused on presenting solutions to problems that ordinary Americans face in their daily lives.

Why wonder? The only poll that matters ends on Nov 3, or sometime thereafter depending on what crazy state you live in.

Either Trump or Biden wins.   Regardless my life goes on and I'll just have to make the best of what comes.

And if Trump wins I'll even promise not to gloat.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2020, 04:26:42 pm by Craig Lamson »
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TechTalk

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2515 on: October 17, 2020, 04:22:08 pm »

Videos show training for alleged governor kidnapping plot

"Videos show militia members, including Brandon M. Caserta, allegedly training for Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer kidnapping plot used as exhibits during hearing in federal court at Gerald R. Ford Federal Building in Grand Rapids. (Courtesy of U.S. Attorney's office)"

Video is 2-minutes long

https://www.youtube.com/Videos show training for alleged governor kidnapping plot

From story below...

https://www.mlive.com/news/2020/10/released-photos-and-videos-offer-look-at-training-weaponry-in-alleged-gov-whitmer-kidnapping-plot
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John Camp

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2516 on: October 17, 2020, 04:37:26 pm »

As a serious and devoted anti-Trumper, but pretty much a centrist in politics, I'm still worried that Trump will win the election and do even further damage to America. So, I've been watching the Economist model on a daily basis (because it's a rational and fairly non-partisan magazine) and I've noticed that there is very little movement in the model's projections for electoral college totals and for voting totals. With a little more than two weeks to go before the election, this has the effect of making me a bit less nervous, because by this time in 2016, Trump was beginning to close the gap with Hillary. No such movement right now. I'm most interested in Florida because a number of political commentators have asserted that Trump can't win without Florida -- and that he was running behind in Florida, and the gap is not closing, but seems even to be opening a bit. A good sign. But I'm still nervous.
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James Clark

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2517 on: October 17, 2020, 04:51:43 pm »

How about Democratic Presidential Candidate may have been accepting cash for access.

Would that warrant coverage?

Sure.  Are you talking about the "Set aside 10% for the big guy" stuff?  Hasn't Biden already released his tax records? We'd know if he had any shady outside income or cashflow from unexplainable LLCs wouldn't we? Does he have any business or foreign financial entanglements now?  Again, easy to check I think.
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TechTalk

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2518 on: October 17, 2020, 04:55:31 pm »

Associated Press - Biden email episode illustrates risk to Trump from Giuliani

https://apnews.com/article/election-2020/Biden email episode illustrates risk to Trump from Giuliani

WASHINGTON (AP) — A New York tabloid’s puzzling account about how it acquired emails purportedly from Joe Biden’s son has raised some red flags. One of the biggest involves the source of the emails: Rudy Giuliani.

Giuliani has traveled abroad looking for dirt on the Bidens, developing relationships with shadowy figures, including a Ukrainian lawmaker who U.S. officials have described as a Russian agent and part of a broader Russian effort to denigrate the Democratic presidential nominee.

Yet Giuliani says foreign sources didn’t provide the Hunter Biden emails. He says a laptop containing the emails and intimate photos was simply abandoned in a Delaware repair shop and the shop owner reached out to Giuliani’s lawyer.

That hasn’t stopped the FBI from investigating whether the emails are part of a foreign influence operation. The emails have surfaced as U.S. officials have been warning that Russia, which backed Trump’s 2016 campaign through hacking of Democratic emails and a covert social media campaign, is interfering again this year. The latest episode with Giuliani underscores the risk he poses to a White House that spent years confronted by a federal investigation into whether Trump associates had coordinated with Russia.

The Washington Post reported Thursday that intelligence agencies had warned the White House last year that Giuliani was the target of a Russian influence operation. The newspaper, citing four former officials, said that assessment was based on information including intercepted communications showing Giuliani had been in contact with people tied to Russian intelligence.

The newspaper said national security adviser Robert O’Brien had warned Trump that information Giuliani brought back from Ukraine should be considered contaminated by Russia, but that Trump brushed off the warning.

Far from distancing himself from Giuliani, Trump has made the purported Hunter Biden emails one of his main talking points in the final weeks of the campaign as he tries to disparage his Democratic rival.

The Trump-friendly New York Post began publishing stories about the emails Wednesday, saying it had obtained them from the former New York mayor. The newspaper said the emails of Hunter Biden, a California resident, were found in a laptop that had been dropped off for service at a Delaware repair shop by an unidentified man who never picked it up. They said the shop owner turned it over to the FBI, but also made a copy of the hard drive and provided that to Giuliani’s lawyer.

But the report that intelligence agencies have been concerned about Giuliani is hardly surprising.

Andrii Derkach, the Ukrainian parliamentarian who is one of Giuliani’s principal contacts, was mentioned in an August intelligence assessment that described a concerted Russian effort to disparage Biden. A Treasury Department sanction announcement from last month characterized Derkach as an “active Russian agent for over a decade.”

Derkach in recent months has leaked recordings of calls Biden had as vice president with Ukraine’s then-leader, audio the Biden campaign contends is heavily edited. Despite his own administration’s warnings on Derkach, Trump has promoted those recordings on Twitter.

Giuliani has not been shy about discussing his foreign contacts, including with Derkach. In December, Derkach posted on his Facebook page photos of him and Giuliani meeting in Kyiv.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2519 on: October 17, 2020, 05:07:07 pm »

Sure.  Are you talking about the "Set aside 10% for the big guy" stuff?  Hasn't Biden already released his tax records? We'd know if he had any shady outside income or cashflow from unexplainable LLCs wouldn't we? Does he have any business or foreign financial entanglements now?  Again, easy to check I think.

Would we? Do you think if he was taking cash like this it would show up on his 1040? 

I don’t know if this is true or not.  What I do know is the media sure as hell does not want to find out and they want to make sure the story has no legs.  Don’t you think it might be a good thing to check it out?

But the bigger point is it appears pretty hypocritical to me given the last  four years of media ( and other) Trump bashing



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