Poll

Who do you think will be sworn in as President on Jan. 21?

Biden
- 14 (66.7%)
Trump
- 7 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Voting closed: November 02, 2020, 06:25:59 pm


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Author Topic: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)  (Read 110589 times)

James Clark

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1660 on: September 24, 2020, 10:28:08 am »



No, Craig is 100% right in this case.  All the filing said was that they believe there is sufficient reason to launch an investigation into allegations of fraud.   That's not nothing, but it's critically different from an indictment.

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PeterAit

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1661 on: September 24, 2020, 10:35:29 am »

"Our allies no longer trust or respect us, and our enemies no longer fear us,"

[Trump has] "failed to meet challenges large or small."

Now, who said these things? The Biden campaign? Hillary Clinton? Bernie Sanders? Nope--it was a group of some 500 retired admirals, generals and past diplomats and national security people in an open letter endorsing Biden.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/more-200-retired-generals-admirals-endorse-biden-including-some-who-n1240842

Let's see the Trumpkins here weasel their way around this!

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faberryman

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1662 on: September 24, 2020, 10:37:28 am »

No, Craig is 100% right in this case.  All the filing said was that they believe there is sufficient reason to launch an investigation into allegations of fraud.   That's not nothing, but it's critically different from an indictment.

I didn't make it up.  It's in the news article.[/i]
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Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1663 on: September 24, 2020, 10:38:50 am »

In the interests of saving time, Alan K is about to write that the timing of this is political, to which I would have responded, "Is there a time when indicting the sitting President would NOT have been political? Alan would then respond with something about Biden's son or about Obama.

(Just having some fun while we wait for the vaccine.  :)  )


Thanks for saving me the time.

James Clark

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1664 on: September 24, 2020, 10:40:55 am »



Oh.  I see what you're doing.  Cute, but probably not helpful.  :)
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faberryman

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1665 on: September 24, 2020, 10:42:09 am »

Oh.  I see what you're doing.  Cute, but probably not helpful.  :)

I posted a link to the article for the reader to view.  Let them make up their own minds.   I think the readers are big enough to to understand my points.  If they can't, or don;t believe me, then I provide the links to the articles where they can read the original sources. What could be more honest and fairer than that?

This is what the forum has become. Anybody can post the most absurd bullshit imaginable. Other members scamper around correcting it. The guy then denies it is bullshit. Other members link to articles disproving it. The guy then deflects or says it is his opinion and he doesn't have to prove it. Back and forth, on and on. Being an optimist, I think it will get better. Instead it gets worse. What a colossal waste of time for everyone. Except for the troller. He is getting exactly what he wants: attention, and lots of it. Bereft of any photographic content, this is all that is left of LuLa. One more victim of the pandemic.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2020, 11:11:33 am by faberryman »
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Peter McLennan

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1666 on: September 24, 2020, 10:52:00 am »

In the interests of saving time...

(Just having some fun while we wait for the vaccine.  :)  )

Excellent.  Maybe we need some kind of shorthand. :)

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Craig Lamson

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1667 on: September 24, 2020, 11:13:28 am »

This is what the forum has become. Anybody can post the most absurd bullshit imaginable. Other members scamper around correcting it. The guy then denies it. Other members link to articles disproving it. The guy then deflects or says it is his opinion and he doesn't have to prove it. Back and forth, on and on. Being an optimist, I think it will get better. Instead it gets worse. What a colossal waste of time for everyone. Except for the troller. He is getting exactly what he wants: attention. Bereft of any photographic content, this is all that is left of LuLa. One more victim of the pandemic.

Na it’s just what most forums do.  It’s a feature not a bug. I don’t suspect anyone here has any chance of changing any minds. Its talk, formerly had at bars and bowling alleys, now with the added benefit of Google or Duck Duck Go.  Go with the flow.
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Peter McLennan

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1668 on: September 24, 2020, 11:29:05 am »

This is what the forum has become. Anybody can post the most absurd bullshit imaginable. Other members scamper around correcting it. The guy then denies it is bullshit. Other members link to articles disproving it. The guy then deflects or says it is his opinion and he doesn't have to prove it. Back and forth, on and on. Being an optimist, I think it will get better. Instead it gets worse. What a colossal waste of time for everyone. Except for the troller. He is getting exactly what he wants: attention, and lots of it. Bereft of any photographic content, this is all that is left of LuLa. One more victim of the pandemic.

Well said and absolutely accurate.

I'm tempted to draw a parallel with CB radio, back in the 70s.  At first it was hailed as a great unifier, enabling free, person-to-person communications for everyone.  In a couple of years it had degenerated into cacophony.

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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1669 on: September 24, 2020, 01:12:26 pm »

As the moderator Jeremy,  you particularly should stay out of it. It's inappropriate and petty.

When I think I need your advice, Alan, I shall not hesitate to ask for it. Until then, I regard it as an essential part of a moderator's duty to point out those who post uncorroborated thoughts as dogmatic facts and who then slither when challenged on their veracity. You are the main culprit, and you offend repeatedly.

Jeremy
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faberryman

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1670 on: September 24, 2020, 02:18:31 pm »

It should be interesting to watch this unfold, particularly during the discovery phase, when Trump will have to produce documents and submit to depositions.

Mary Trump Sues President and Family, Claiming Fraud of Millions

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/24/politics/mary-trump-lawsuit/index.html

If you subscribe to the NYT, this article addresses the subject more fully.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/24/nyregion/mary-trump-suing-trump-family.html

If I were Mary Trump, I would keep a close eye on my water bottles.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2020, 02:48:59 pm by faberryman »
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Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1671 on: September 24, 2020, 03:26:04 pm »

When I think I need your advice, Alan, I shall not hesitate to ask for it. Until then, I regard it as an essential part of a moderator's duty to point out those who post uncorroborated thoughts as dogmatic facts and who then slither when challenged on their veracity. You are the main culprit, and you offend repeatedly.

Jeremy
My statements regarding facts are presented as such and corroborated with links if they are handy.   My opinions are opinions just like everyone else that do not require corroboration.  Neither does anyone else's.  If I say Canon is better than Nikon, I don't have to prove it.  To hold my opinion to some higher standard than others is bias on your part.  I didn't see you telling FBerryman that his claim that Trump was indicted was a lie even according to the article he linked too.  Why aren't you complaining about his lies?

Peter McLennan

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1672 on: September 24, 2020, 03:32:20 pm »

...I regard it as an essential part of a moderator's duty to point out those who post uncorroborated thoughts as dogmatic facts and who then slither when challenged on their veracity...

Jeremy

Thank you, Jeremy, for even attempting what we have for so long failed to do.

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Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1673 on: September 24, 2020, 03:35:07 pm »

Goldhammer was right.  When the moderator starts taking sides and insulting the posters, it's time to go.

Manoli

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1674 on: September 24, 2020, 03:44:38 pm »

Goldhammer was right.  When the moderator starts taking sides and insulting the posters, it's time to go.

Let’s see if you manage to keep your word this time.
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Manoli

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1675 on: September 24, 2020, 03:53:50 pm »

My statements regarding facts are presented as such and corroborated with links if they are handy.   My opinions are opinions just like everyone else that do not require corroboration.  Neither does anyone else's.  If I say Canon is better than Nikon, I don't have to prove it.  To hold my opinion to some higher standard than others is bias on your part.  I didn't see you telling FBerryman that his claim that Trump was indicted was a lie even according to the article he linked too.  Why aren't you complaining about his lies?

Er, no.
when you state ‘violence is 90 % ... ‘ its not an opinion.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1676 on: September 24, 2020, 04:27:14 pm »

Are Americans predisposed to authoritarianism?  An interesting study https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/09/23/trump-america-authoritarianism-420681 presents some results of surveys along with a discussion of results.
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LesPalenik

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1677 on: September 24, 2020, 04:36:30 pm »

Are Americans predisposed to authoritarianism?  An interesting study https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/09/23/trump-america-authoritarianism-420681 presents some results of surveys along with a discussion of results.

Authoritarianism like Venezuela under Maduro or Philippines under Duverte?
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TechTalk

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1678 on: September 24, 2020, 05:21:22 pm »

Are Americans predisposed to authoritarianism?  An interesting study https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/09/23/trump-america-authoritarianism-420681 presents some results of surveys along with a discussion of results.

Thank you for the link to this interesting article. I have copied a few portions from it below.

The political path to galvanize American authoritarianism is also well worn and documented. First, purveyors of the paranoid style conjure an “other.” Second, this other is described as different from mainstream Americans, and identified as a clear and present threat to majoritarian values and traditions. Third, the paranoid leader stokes fear that a hidden conspiracy to undermine mainstream values is afoot and alleges that the other is behind it—activating American authoritarians. Finally, in its most virulent manifestation, growing fear of the other is manipulated to rationalize actions that violate fundamental values, norms, laws and constitutional protections guaranteed to all Americans.

Let me be clear: Our fellow Americans, including our authoritarian neighbors, are not the enemy. The enemies of democracy are self-interested men and women who exploit fear to secure and expand their power. Fear activates the reservoir of intolerance that resides across ideological and partisan divides. And it dupes some of us into demanding uniformity over diversity, denigrating our neighbors, and turning our back on the very motto inscribed on the Great Seal of our Republic in 1782: e pluribus unum.

Personally, we need to stop othering each other. No more schoolyard labeling of one another as “libtard,” “snowflake,” or “deplorable.” No more reveling in the drawing of differences between us and them. There is no “enemy within” except the self-interested misleaders who exacerbate our problems. The real enemy is ignorance, disinformation and the lure of simple authoritarian answers to complex problems.

In 1950, taking McCarthyism head on while others demurred, Republican Senator Margaret Chase Smith delivered a more pointed articulation of these principles in her “Declaration of Conscience.” She said: “It is high time that we stopped thinking politically as Republicans and Democrats about elections and started thinking patriotically as Americans about national security based on individual freedoms. It is high time that we all stopped being tools and victims of totalitarian techniques that, if continued here unchecked, will surely end what we have come to cherish as the American way of life.”
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Respice, adspice, prospice - Look to the past, the present, the future

BernardLanguillier

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #1679 on: September 24, 2020, 05:23:20 pm »

Go with the flow.

Good advice.

Perhaps you coud apply to yourself and advise your President to do the same?

Translated in political terms it would mean respect the will of all Americans, respect the letter and the spirit of the constitution,... and another long list of things decent and ethical leaders do, but that Trump doesn’t.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=In1_c6xJVZE

Regards,
Bernard
« Last Edit: September 24, 2020, 10:32:17 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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