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Who do you think will be sworn in as President on Jan. 21?

Biden
- 14 (66.7%)
Trump
- 7 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Voting closed: November 02, 2020, 06:25:59 pm


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Author Topic: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)  (Read 102999 times)

TechTalk

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2220 on: October 13, 2020, 07:00:31 pm »

Thanks for filling me in on that. I guess the moral of the story is better late than never.

Always happy to share information with you and to read your posts. Now, someone should let Kimberly Guilfoyle, Don Junior's girlfriend, know that Puerto Ricans are U.S. citizens. When she spoke shouted at the Republican National Convention, she said that she was a a "first-generation American" with her mother coming from Puerto Rico and her father “also an immigrant” from Ireland.

https://www.click2houston.com/decision-2020/2020/08/25/kimberly-guilfoyle-says-shes-a-1st-generation-american-during-rnc-speech/
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faberryman

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2221 on: October 13, 2020, 07:06:25 pm »

Always happy to share information with you and to read your posts. Now, someone should let Kimberly Guilfoyle, Don Junior's girlfriend, know that Puerto Ricans are U.S. citizens. When she spoke shouted at the Republican National Convention, she said that she was a a "first-generation American" with her mother coming from Puerto Rico and her father “also an immigrant” from Ireland.

She sounds even dumber now than she did on Fox News "The Five". I use to watch that show sometimes before Trump came on the scene. The years have not been kind to her. Her performance at the convention is inexplicable. I initially thought she was doing one of those big mouth frog jokes. Turns out she wasn't.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2020, 11:13:15 am by faberryman »
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Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2222 on: October 13, 2020, 08:57:29 pm »

Looks like Biden agrees with me regarding how packing the court will cause the Supreme Court to lose respect.  Of course, it's election season.  So who knows what he really thinks?

Joe Biden says he's 'not a fan' of 'court packing' as SCOTUS hearings continue
The candidate has been dodging whether he would try to add justices.

"President Roosevelt clearly had the right to send to the United States Senate and the United States Congress a proposal to pack the court. It was totally within his right to do that. He violated no law. He was legalistically, absolutely correct," Biden, said during a Judiciary Committee hearing in 1983.

"But it was a bonehead idea. It was a terrible, terrible mistake to make. And it put in question, if for an entire decade, the independence of the most-significant body … in this country, the Supreme Court of the United States of America."

Throughout the 2020 Democratic Primary, Biden also expressed his opposition to court packing.

"No, I’m not prepared to go on and try to pack the court, because we’ll live to rue that day," Biden told the Iowa Starting Line in July of 2019.

"I would not get into court packing. We had three justices. Next time around, we lose control, they add three justices. We begin to lose any credibility the court has at all," Biden also said during the Democratic primary debate in October last year.

[/b]
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/joe-biden-fan-court-packing-scotus-hearings-continue/story?id=73585081

kers

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2223 on: October 14, 2020, 06:25:04 am »

Seems to me what really is, is a problem is a supreme court that does not represent the feelings of the people that make the nation.
If it is now 6-3 conservative and if the population is 3-6 liberal than there is a problem.
It can lead to unrest and make legislation coming to a standstill.

Trump already has done harm to cancel many long term agreements made by Presidents in the past, like the Iran and the climate agreement.
Also this makes the US not going anywhere if its point of view change180 degrees every 4 years and it makes the US an unreliable partner internationally.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2020, 10:26:28 am by kers »
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2224 on: October 14, 2020, 10:01:26 am »

Nobody talks about the "trade deficit" anymore, do they? It might be good to remind ourselves of all that "winning the trade war" talk from 2-3 years ago, as if there was an actual trade war before Trump invented one, https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/06/trump-trade-deficit-426805.

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chez

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2225 on: October 14, 2020, 10:44:42 am »

Nobody talks about the "trade deficit" anymore, do they? It might be good to remind ourselves of all that "winning the trade war" talk from 2-3 years ago, as if there was an actual trade war before Trump invented one, https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/06/trump-trade-deficit-426805.

Yep, and you do 't hear much about the wall or coal miners either...both failures as well. In fact, what has Trump actually come through on from all the promises he made when making promises was easy?
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Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2226 on: October 14, 2020, 10:46:51 am »

Seems to me what really is a problem is a supreme court that does not represent the feelings of the people that make the nation.
If it is now 6-3 conservative and if the population is 3-6 liberal than there is a problem.
It can lead to unrest and make legislation coming to a standstill.

Trump already has done harm to cancel many long term agreements made by Presidents in the past, like the Iran and the climate agreement.
Also this makes the US not going anywhere if its point of view change180 degrees every 4 years and it makes the US an unreliable partner internationally.
You raised two issues that are not related.  Regarding the first, the Supreme Court does not represent the people's feelings.  They are not an elected body that changes every two or four years.  It's purpose is to interpret our written Constitution independent of polls and elections and people's passions.  It decides if laws and actions of the government are constitutional and not whether they are desirable by the citizens.  It often turns out that more people are opposed to their decisions than not. We accept that because we've given the court respect and hope that their decisions are made independent of politics based on what the constitution says and means. The Court is not elected by the people to democratically carry out the people's wishes.  Instead, the Congress and President do that.  That's what elections are about.

Foreign affairs is mainly a different issue.  Treaties with foreign countries should be codified by our Senate as required by our constitution.  Obama made the Iran and Paris deals without the Senate's consent because the Senate would not approve it.  Our constitution requires Senate approval to prevent Presidents from acting unilaterally in foreign affairs.  They could get us into wars that Congress is supposed to approve.  It prevents them from acting dictatorially.  So presidential actions without Senate approval, can be reversed by subsequent presidents.  Had Obama gotten Senate approval, Trump would have had to respect the treaties.  Other countries know our Senate is required to codified agreements.  But they were playing fast and cute as well hoping the deal would hold without its approval.  Where it counts, where has American been unreliable?  If anything, European NATO countries have not held their promise in financial support.  Yet we are still in Europe defending it against the Russians and keeping peace among European nations.   Our relationships with our Asian partners like Japan, Australia, and PI and Taiwan and South Korea are even stronger today as Trump increased naval presence in the Pacific and South China Sea.  The real issue is many countries are used to feckless presidents who they pushed around.  Now they are dealing with a tough president who is more concerned about American interests and cares little if you hate him for it.  Smart Americans see that as an advantage to our country.  Nothing personal.   

Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2227 on: October 14, 2020, 10:50:59 am »

Yep, and you do 't hear much about the wall or coal miners either...both failures as well. In fact, what has Trump actually come through on from all the promises he made when making promises was easy?
Before Covid, we had a booming economy with the lowest unemployment rates in history, even for minority groups.

chez

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2228 on: October 14, 2020, 10:58:34 am »

Before Covid, we had a booming economy with the lowest unemployment rates in history, even for minority groups.

So did the rest of the world...so what.
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Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2229 on: October 14, 2020, 11:08:40 am »

So did the rest of the world...so what.
When a president does a good job with the economy, people usually reward him with re-election. With Covid, he's facing an uphill battle.  He has to convince enough people that he can do it again or he will lose the election.

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2230 on: October 14, 2020, 11:24:53 am »

Seems to me what really is, is a problem is a supreme court that does not represent the feelings of the people that make the nation.
If it is now 6-3 conservative and if the population is 3-6 liberal than there is a problem.
It can lead to unrest and make legislation coming to a standstill.
The real problem is that Congress is very sloppy in drafting legislation.  It they did their job correctly the Supreme Court would not be an issue.  The Courts become a problem because certain things don't get addressed by Congress.  If you look at three landmark decisions: Brown v Board of Education, Roe v Wade, and Oberkfell v Hodges; the Court acted because of a legislative vacuum.  Now some would posit that this was incorrect of the court to do so but in a gridlocked legislative scenario it is the only way things that society wants get done.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2231 on: October 14, 2020, 11:26:34 am »

Before Covid, we had a booming economy with the lowest unemployment rates in history, even for minority groups.
Yet when you look at the economic growth curve that the Fed publishes, there was a slight decrease in the slope from the Obama years. 
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Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2232 on: October 14, 2020, 11:33:20 am »

The real problem is that Congress is very sloppy in drafting legislation.  It they did their job correctly the Supreme Court would not be an issue.  The Courts become a problem because certain things don't get addressed by Congress.  If you look at three landmark decisions: Brown v Board of Education, Roe v Wade, and Oberkfell v Hodges; the Court acted because of a legislative vacuum.  Now some would posit that this was incorrect of the court to do so but in a gridlocked legislative scenario it is the only way things that society wants get done.
It's not the job of the court to correct deficiencies of government. Otherwise, they become the legislators legislating from the bench.  If the congress and the president are doing a lousy job, then people vote them out in elections. I don't want to have 9 (or 13 :) ) unelected people telling me how I should live. That's not democracy.

Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2233 on: October 14, 2020, 11:35:17 am »

Yet when you look at the economic growth curve that the Fed publishes, there was a slight decrease in the slope from the Obama years. 
Obama isn't running.  No one really believes Biden can do a better job.  That's the issue.

kers

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2234 on: October 14, 2020, 11:39:18 am »

You raised two issues that are not related.  Regarding the first, the Supreme Court does not represent the people's feelings.  They are not an elected body that changes every two or four years.  It's purpose is to interpret our written Constitution independent of polls and elections and people's passions.  It decides if laws and actions of the government are constitutional and not whether they are desirable by the citizens.  It often turns out that more people are opposed to their decisions than not. We accept that because we've given the court respect and hope that their decisions are made independent of politics based on what the constitution says and means. The Court is not elected by the people to democratically carry out the people's wishes.  Instead, the Congress and President do that.  That's what elections are about.
If that would be true it was not such a fuzz for democrats/ republicans to choose those judges; And you know it.

Foreign affairs is mainly a different issue.  Treaties with foreign countries should be codified by our Senate as required by our constitution.  Obama made the Iran and Paris deals without the Senate's consent because the Senate would not approve it.  Our constitution requires Senate approval to prevent Presidents from acting unilaterally in foreign affairs.  They could get us into wars that Congress is supposed to approve.  It prevents them from acting dictatorially.  So presidential actions without Senate approval, can be reversed by subsequent presidents.  Had Obama gotten Senate approval, Trump would have had to respect the treaties.  Other countries know our Senate is required to codified agreements.  But they were playing fast and cute as well hoping the deal would hold without its approval.  Where it counts, where has American been unreliable?  If anything, European NATO countries have not held their promise in financial support.  Yet we are still in Europe defending it against the Russians and keeping peace among European nations.   Our relationships with our Asian partners like Japan, Australia, and PI and Taiwan and South Korea are even stronger today as Trump increased naval presence in the Pacific and South China Sea.  The real issue is many countries are used to feckless presidents who they pushed around.  Now they are dealing with a tough president who is more concerned about American interests and cares little if you hate him for it.  Smart Americans see that as an advantage to our country.  Nothing personal.
Probably you are right about the Iran deal; but you obviously did not mention the Climate treaty; 
The NATO countries do not spend enough as they should - fair; but this is far from unreliable; and the US is in Europe also to protect their own interests - as they do all over the world.


about influence and economy

Our relationships with our Asian partners like Japan, Australia, and PI and Taiwan and South Korea are even stronger today as Trump increased naval presence in the Pacific and South China Sea
The US lost economic influence;
Just in office he pulled out of the TTP ; countries worked on that for years.
The result is that the Asian countries had to make their own trade deal without the US, now with China as largest menber (RCEP)
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/12/what-is-rcep-asia-pacific-trade-deal-slated-to-be-worlds-largest-fta.html


Now they are dealing with a tough president who is more concerned about American interests and cares little if you hate him for it.  Smart Americans see that as an advantage to our country.  Nothing personal.
He is even "immune"- he can face his rally audience without any fear from covid, unlike the audience ; he does not even protect his most loyal supporters (smart Americans).
Instead: he puts them at serious risk getting infected while telling them not to fear covid. Staying alive is an American interest- however ...

When a president does a good job with the economy, people usually reward him with re-election. With Covid, he's facing an uphill battle.  He has to convince enough people that he can do it again or he will lose the election.
Trump started with a good running economy left by Obama ;
and read the article that Robert Roaldi just linked:
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/06/trump-trade-deficit-426805.

As for Covid:  Trump's lack of a plan ( that should have been followed by decisive action ) has made the problem much worse and is responsible for many avoidable deaths.
(nothing personal)
« Last Edit: October 14, 2020, 11:51:00 am by kers »
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2235 on: October 14, 2020, 11:42:58 am »

It's not the job of the court to correct deficiencies of government. Otherwise, they become the legislators legislating from the bench.  If the congress and the president are doing a lousy job, then people vote them out in elections. I don't want to have 9 (or 13 :) ) unelected people telling me how I should live. That's not democracy.
You do realize that we do not live in a democracy; The Constitution never mentions this.  Sometimes the courts need to intervene as in Brown v Board of Education, otherwise we would still be following Plessy v Ferguson with separate but "equal" schools. 
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Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2236 on: October 14, 2020, 12:03:26 pm »

If that would be true it was not such a fuzz for democrats/ republicans to choose those judges; And you know it.
Probably you are right about the Iran deal; but you obviously did not mention the Climate treaty; 
The NATO countries do not spend enough as they should - fair; but this is far from unreliable; and the US is in Europe also to protect their own interests - as they do all over the world.


about influence and economy
The US lost economic influence;
Just in office he pulled out of the TTP ; countries worked on that for years.
The result is that the Asian countries had to make their own trade deal without the US, now with China as largest menber (RCEP)
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/11/12/what-is-rcep-asia-pacific-trade-deal-slated-to-be-worlds-largest-fta.html

He is even "immune"- he can face his rally audience without any fear from covid, unlike the audience ; he does not even protect his most loyal supporters (smart Americans).
Instead: he puts them at serious risk getting infected while telling them not to fear covid. Staying alive is an American interest- however ...
Trump started with a good running economy left by Obama ;
and read the article that Robert Roaldi just linked:
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/06/trump-trade-deficit-426805.

As for Covid:  Trump's lack of a plan ( that should have been followed by decisive action ) has made the problem much worse and is responsible for many avoidable deaths.
(nothing personal)
I don't know what a fuzz is.

I did mention the climate deal.  I said Iran and Paris.  Paris is the climate deal. (Paris Accord). It didn't have Senate approval either.

Everything else you said has nothing to do with my post.

PeterAit

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2237 on: October 14, 2020, 12:13:41 pm »

Looks like Biden agrees with me regarding how packing the court will cause the Supreme Court to lose respect.  Of course, it's election season.  So who knows what he really thinks?

Joe Biden says he's 'not a fan' of 'court packing' as SCOTUS hearings continue
The candidate has been dodging whether he would try to add justices.

"President Roosevelt clearly had the right to send to the United States Senate and the United States Congress a proposal to pack the court. It was totally within his right to do that. He violated no law. He was legalistically, absolutely correct," Biden, said during a Judiciary Committee hearing in 1983.

"But it was a bonehead idea. It was a terrible, terrible mistake to make. And it put in question, if for an entire decade, the independence of the most-significant body … in this country, the Supreme Court of the United States of America."

Throughout the 2020 Democratic Primary, Biden also expressed his opposition to court packing.

"No, I’m not prepared to go on and try to pack the court, because we’ll live to rue that day," Biden told the Iowa Starting Line in July of 2019.

"I would not get into court packing. We had three justices. Next time around, we lose control, they add three justices. We begin to lose any credibility the court has at all," Biden also said during the Democratic primary debate in October last year.

[/b]
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/joe-biden-fan-court-packing-scotus-hearings-continue/story?id=73585081

They shouldn't use the term "packing" as it implies a specific political motive--which was the case with FDR, and is of course the case right now. Court expansion is a better term, and I have read more than one persuasive argument that the entire federal court system, SCOTUS down, needs expansion simply because there are not enough justices/judges to deal with the expanding population.
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Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2238 on: October 14, 2020, 12:16:16 pm »

You do realize that we do not live in a democracy; The Constitution never mentions this.  Sometimes the courts need to intervene as in Brown v Board of Education, otherwise we would still be following Plessy v Ferguson with separate but "equal" schools. 
Yes I know we live in a representative democracy, a federal republic.  But you know what I meant.  No one votes for the Justices and their positions are protected for life.  It's not their job to legislate from the bench. That why we vote for congressmen and Senators and Presidents. They are the ones who represent our desires for how we should be governed and live. Also, courts are not intervening if they decide things based on the constitution.  That's their job.  It's only when they decide on their personal preferences over what the constitution says.  Then they've lost their way.  Power has gone to their heads.  That's when people start to disrespect them.  That's when we start fighting about the judicial philosophy thinking that they'll support laws that we like rather than ruling independently based on the constitution. Both sides are doing this.  It's adding to the disrespect.

Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2239 on: October 14, 2020, 12:22:49 pm »

They shouldn't use the term "packing" as it implies a specific political motive--which was the case with FDR, and is of course the case right now. Court expansion is a better term, and I have read more than one persuasive argument that the entire federal court system, SCOTUS down, needs expansion simply because there are not enough justices/judges to deal with the expanding population.
Court expansion is court packing.  It's like saying someone passed away rather than they're dead. 9 justices can handle the Supreme COurt as well as 13.  Increasing it by 4 is packing, call it what you like.

Now, the lower Federal Courts have hundreds of judges to hear federal cases.  They are in districts around the country. I'm not familiar with the statistics.  But I'm sure they have been expanded over the years as the country has grown.  The Supreme COurt has had the same number or 9 for around 150 years without any baleful effect. 
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