Poll

Who do you think will be sworn in as President on Jan. 21?

Biden
- 14 (66.7%)
Trump
- 7 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Voting closed: November 02, 2020, 06:25:59 pm


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Author Topic: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)  (Read 103008 times)

MattBurt

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2200 on: October 12, 2020, 03:13:47 pm »

By the way, Matt, is that the only negative thing you can say about my post?  So I suppose you now agree with everything I was saying regarding everything Biden believed in 2012 and that he's changed his policy position?  You didn't say anything about that point.

No that means I don't think you have any evidence to support your claims.
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TechTalk

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2201 on: October 12, 2020, 05:01:52 pm »

Joe Biden was Vice-President from January 2009 thru January 2017. The role of any Vice-President is to privately offer the President their opinions and advice and to publicly support the President's policies. A Vice-President can advise on policy, but does not decide policy.

President Obama not only welcomed a variety of differing and dissenting opinions, he encouraged them. It has been well documented and widely reported that Biden privately presented Obama with a strong dissent to the advice of military leaders for surging a large number of troops into Afghanistan in an attempt to restructure the country. Ultimately, Obama did not take Biden's advice and surged first 20,000 and then an additional 30,000 troops into Afghanistan until there were about 100,000 US troops there. In policy meetings and discussions, Biden was a constant thorn in the side of Obama's military advisors and consistently argued that it would not achieve the goals that were promised; that there was no winnable war in the region for the US; and that the focus should be on counterterrorism efforts. He was ultimately proven right.

The policy approach to Afghanistan, and more broadly in Iraq and Syria, that Biden proposed then privately, and since then publicly, was a narrowly focused mission of counterterrorism with enough specialized forces on the ground to monitor and combat, with the assistance of local fighters, any terrorist organizations like Al-Qaeda or ISIS. He vocally opposed, then and now, the ideas that large numbers of US troops were necessary or that we were capable of reforming or remaking the region to our liking. He also opposed then, and opposes now, bringing US forces on the ground down to zero as he believes that we need eyes and ears and forces on the ground to enable the US to maintain our own security against potential threats.

While Biden throughout his career has shown that he is willing and able to admit to, and learn from, mistakes and errors in judgement and a willingness to change his mind based on past experience and new information, his position in this area has been fairly consistent for over a decade. As a Senator, he opposed the troop surge in Iraq in 2007 by Bush and argued for retaining residual forces there in 2011 as Obama's VP. None of this is a secret. Since leaving office as VP, numerous books, opinion pieces, and news articles by people inside and outside of the Obama administration have reported his positions and advice to the President in addition to his own public statements.

Biden has had plenty of critics on this position over the years from the left and right, and from within and outside of the Obama administration. Open debate and criticism is healthy in a democracy. It's also quite easy to fabricate false or misleading narratives that obscure the truth. The truth is that Biden has for years opposed large numbers of troops and troop surges regardless of who was President. He was a dissident voice in the Obama administration for troop surges in Afghanistan and withdrawing from Iraq without a residual force remaining for security. He opposes Trump's plan to bring troop levels down to zero and that is consistent with his long standing positions.

It is also true that the Taliban want all US forces out of Afghanistan and eagerly support Trump for his statements that he intends to remove all US forces quickly. It's not a smear to report that fact. It's called journalism.
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faberryman

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2202 on: October 12, 2020, 06:20:55 pm »

Eric "Vaccine" Trump needs to work on his event vetting:

"Eric Trump cancels event at Michigan gun shop after former employee is linked to domestic terror plot against governor"

https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/local/2020/10/12/eric-trump-cancels-event-at-michigan-gun-shop-after-former-employee-is-linked-to-domestic-terror-plot-against-governor/

I thought Don Jr. is the gun guy anyway.
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Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2203 on: October 12, 2020, 06:52:13 pm »

Joe Biden was Vice-President from January 2009 thru January 2017. The role of any Vice-President is to privately offer the President their opinions and advice and to publicly support the President's policies. A Vice-President can advise on policy, but does not decide policy.

President Obama not only welcomed a variety of differing and dissenting opinions, he encouraged them. It has been well documented and widely reported that Biden privately presented Obama with a strong dissent to the advice of military leaders for surging a large number of troops into Afghanistan in an attempt to restructure the country. Ultimately, Obama did not take Biden's advice and surged first 20,000 and then an additional 30,000 troops into Afghanistan until there were about 100,000 US troops there. In policy meetings and discussions, Biden was a constant thorn in the side of Obama's military advisors and consistently argued that it would not achieve the goals that were promised; that there was no winnable war in the region for the US; and that the focus should be on counterterrorism efforts. He was ultimately proven right.

The policy approach to Afghanistan, and more broadly in Iraq and Syria, that Biden proposed then privately, and since then publicly, was a narrowly focused mission of counterterrorism with enough specialized forces on the ground to monitor and combat, with the assistance of local fighters, any terrorist organizations like Al-Qaeda or ISIS. He vocally opposed, then and now, the ideas that large numbers of US troops were necessary or that we were capable of reforming or remaking the region to our liking. He also opposed then, and opposes now, bringing US forces on the ground down to zero as he believes that we need eyes and ears and forces on the ground to enable the US to maintain our own security against potential threats.

While Biden throughout his career has shown that he is willing and able to admit to, and learn from, mistakes and errors in judgement and a willingness to change his mind based on past experience and new information, his position in this area has been fairly consistent for over a decade. As a Senator, he opposed the troop surge in Iraq in 2007 by Bush and argued for retaining residual forces there in 2011 as Obama's VP. None of this is a secret. Since leaving office as VP, numerous books, opinion pieces, and news articles by people inside and outside of the Obama administration have reported his positions and advice to the President in addition to his own public statements.

Biden has had plenty of critics on this position over the years from the left and right, and from within and outside of the Obama administration. Open debate and criticism is healthy in a democracy. It's also quite easy to fabricate false or misleading narratives that obscure the truth. The truth is that Biden has for years opposed large numbers of troops and troop surges regardless of who was President. He was a dissident voice in the Obama administration for troop surges in Afghanistan and withdrawing from Iraq without a residual force remaining for security. He opposes Trump's plan to bring troop levels down to zero and that is consistent with his long standing positions.

It is also true that the Taliban want all US forces out of Afghanistan and eagerly support Trump for his statements that he intends to remove all US forces quickly. It's not a smear to report that fact. It's called journalism.
These don't sound like your words.  Did you copy them from somewhere?  If so, it would be appropriate to credit the original writer and provide a link. 

TechTalk

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2204 on: October 12, 2020, 07:11:15 pm »

They are my own words and my own thoughts expressed my own way. Of course, I didn't just make up from my imagination or random passing thoughts what Joe Biden's policy history has been. That was distilled from reading numerous articles and watching a variety of interviews over time.

I guess I'll take it as a compliment that you suspect otherwise. If you're still suspicious, it should be fairly easy to show that I'm copying and pasting. Just have a go at it with Google.
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Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2205 on: October 12, 2020, 08:33:29 pm »

They are my own words and my own thoughts expressed my own way. Of course, I didn't just make up from my imagination or random passing thoughts what Joe Biden's policy history has been. That was distilled from reading numerous articles and watching a variety of interviews over time.

I guess I'll take it as a compliment that you suspect otherwise. If you're still suspicious, it should be fairly easy to show that I'm copying and pasting. Just have a go at it with Google.
I'm sorry that I thought otherwise.  You're a good writer.  I wish I knew your first name.  I think it would create more personal trust. Alan.

TechTalk

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2206 on: October 12, 2020, 08:34:27 pm »

An interesting article on the "militia movement" and their warped view of the constitution is linked below. The article includes a much clearer photo of the knuckleheads that wandered around inside the Michigan State Capitol in April—wearing their soldier costumes and rifles at the ready—than the snapshot from a State Senator that I linked in an earlier post on the kidnapping plot.

https://images.theconversation.com/Photo-Militia Members-April 30 in the Michigan State Capitol

"Plot to kidnap Michigan’s governor grew from the militia movement’s toxic mix of constitutional falsehoods and half-truths"

"The U.S. militia movement has long been steeped in a peculiar – and unquestionably mistaken – interpretation of the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and civil liberties."

https://theconversation.com/plot-to-kidnap-michigans-governor-grew-from-the-militia-movements-toxic-mix-of-constitutional-falsehoods-and-half-truths
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TechTalk

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2207 on: October 12, 2020, 08:54:21 pm »

I'm sorry that I thought otherwise.  You're a good writer.  I wish I knew your first name.  I think it would create more personal trust. Alan.

No apology needed, but thanks. I have no interest, for multiple reasons both personal and professional, to be personally identifiable in an online forum and don't use any of the social media platforms. Just not my thing.

If you're interested in Biden's policy positions regarding Afghanistan and the surrounding region and how they were somewhat modified and solidified into the position he has held for the past eleven years after visiting at Obama's request to give him a report on the conditions there in 2009; I'll be happy to supply some linked articles to read. I don't want to do so, however, if you're not interested in reading them or learning more about the subject.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 08:57:43 pm by TechTalk »
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Peter McLennan

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2208 on: October 12, 2020, 08:54:48 pm »

You're a good writer...

He is an excellent writer. We're lucky to have such an articulate and well-researched voice of reason here.
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TechTalk

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2209 on: October 12, 2020, 09:17:06 pm »

You are far too generous. I've just been passionate about history since I was old enough to read and have had a deep interest in politics and government since the age of 12.

Recently, I've tried to avoid the whole back and forth, post and reply scenario, and simply post or write what I want to say, independent from making a specific response to someone. But, I'm human and get emotionally involved and have slipped from that goal. The previous long post, that Alan replied to, was an attempt to return to that idea. I think it improves my clarity of thought when I'm writing what I want to say instead of responding to what someone else has said.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 09:21:24 pm by TechTalk »
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Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2210 on: October 12, 2020, 09:21:41 pm »

No apology needed, but thanks. I have no interest, for multiple reasons both personal and professional, to be personally identifiable in an online forum and don't use any of the social media platforms. Just not my thing.

If you're interested in Biden's policy positions regarding Afghanistan and the surrounding region and how they were somewhat modified and solidified into the position he has held for the past eleven years after visiting at Obama's request to give him a report on the conditions there in 2009; I'll be happy to supply some linked articles to read. I don't want to do so, however, if you're not interested in reading them or learning more about the subject.
I think I know enough about Biden's policy.  Although it's changed somewhat for election purposes, he and Trump really are similar.  They both want us out of a lot of places.  Enough foreign adventures.  If Biden wins, you won't see much difference in American foreign affair policies.  I don't think he'll be as tough on our allies to "pay up".  But worsening economic conditions in America will force him to toughen up.  China's going to be the real issue in the future.  I hope Biden forgets about giving Russia a hard time.  We need them on our side against China not on China's side against us. 

TechTalk

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2211 on: October 12, 2020, 09:26:54 pm »

I think I know enough about Biden's policy.

Thanks. That will save me time and energy. Now, back to our regularly scheduled program.
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TechTalk

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2212 on: October 12, 2020, 11:29:59 pm »

Trump at the Florida rally / Covid party today said...

"I'm not gonna say the best, but I'm just about the best thing that ever happened to Puerto Rico. You better vote for me, Puerto Rico. You better vote for me."

30-second clip...  https://www.c-span.org/video/user-clip-trump-vote-puerto-rico

Uh... there's a small problem with that Puerto Rico vote.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2213 on: October 13, 2020, 09:05:17 am »

Trump at the Florida rally / Covid party today said...

"I'm not gonna say the best, but I'm just about the best thing that ever happened to Puerto Rico. You better vote for me, Puerto Rico. You better vote for me."

30-second clip...  https://www.c-span.org/video/user-clip-trump-vote-puerto-rico

Uh... there's a small problem with that Puerto Rico vote.

Wow, you thought he was talking to folks living in Peurto Rico?  Now thats just silly.
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PeterAit

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2214 on: October 13, 2020, 12:12:12 pm »


Shouldn't a successful billionaire manage a business better than this?

But he's neither successful nor a billionaire.
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faberryman

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2215 on: October 13, 2020, 12:24:53 pm »

But he's neither successful nor a billionaire.

What did you expect with Don Jr. and Eric at the helm when a pandemic strikes? It's the perfect storm. Fortunately, it was only undocumented immigrants who lost their jobs. Speaking of which, it's three weeks before the election and Trump hasn't mentioned anything about an angry hoard of murderers and rapists closing in on our unprotected Southern border. I guess that is so 2016.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2020, 04:54:35 pm by faberryman »
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faberryman

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2216 on: October 13, 2020, 02:48:57 pm »

Trump at the Florida rally / Covid party today said...

"I'm not gonna say the best, but I'm just about the best thing that ever happened to Puerto Rico. You better vote for me, Puerto Rico. You better vote for me."

30-second clip...  https://www.c-span.org/video/user-clip-trump-vote-puerto-rico

Why is Trump saying that he is about the best thing that ever happened to Puerto Rico? It sounds like a line from an SNL skit. I need some help from the Trump whisperers.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2020, 04:14:17 pm by faberryman »
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faberryman

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2217 on: October 13, 2020, 03:50:50 pm »

I am happy to report that everyone in my neighborhood splurged on priority shipping, and now have their replacement Biden lawn signs up. They put them right next to the ones the Trump supporter defaced just to remind people that Trump supporters are dickheads.

Meanwhile, it appears that nothing is happening today. The first story in my newsfeed this morning was that Apple is introducing a new iPhone 12 with 5G and an OLED screen.  I have heard that 5G is supposed to be faster, though I have no idea what 5G actually is. I think OLED stands for organic LED, which ought to appeal to those in the green movement. Most of the stuff I buy is organic, so why not have an organic screen too. My daughter may get the new phone, in which case I would get her current one as a hand me down. My iPhone is so old it won't run the latest eBay app. The only reason I know that is I tried unsuccessfully to buy some vacuum cleaner bags the other day. You know the economy is in the crapper when you are buying vacuum cleaner bags on your phone. I have been getting out sort of like the good old days though. I had a doctors appointment on Monday and have another one on Thursday. I picked up a prescription today. The Halloween candy was marked down and the shelves were stocked with Christmas candy. I think they are rushing things. There is something so wrong about selling marshmallow Santas in October. But most people are so confused they don't have any idea what month it is anyway so I guess it is okay.

Also in my newsfeed this morning was a story from the UK. Did you know that Prince William and Kate Middleton don't have custody of their children? I didn't read the story to find out why. I have been following Brexit, and now all I get are stories about the royal family. Do the British really read this stuff? Isn't it like keeping up with the Kardashians or something? Not that I know anything about that. Really.

I was able to confirm on the internet that my ballot has made its way to the election commission. In my state votes are tallied as the ballots are received. Seems like a pretty good idea rather than waiting until the last minute. I live in a red state. Trump won by double digits in 2016. I expect him to do so again. Some people hereabouts are slow learners. I can only say that I did my civic duty. I guess the dickhead Trump supporter who defaced all the Biden lawn signs in my neighborhood is going to get the last laugh, at least in my state. We will just have to see how things turn out elsewhere.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2020, 06:59:55 pm by faberryman »
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TechTalk

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2218 on: October 13, 2020, 06:18:22 pm »

Why is Trump saying that he is about the best thing that ever happened to Puerto Rico?

Because a few weeks ago, Trump finally released $13 billion of withheld and delayed disaster relief funds for Puerto Rico, three years after Hurricane Maria devastated the island. He didn't hedge about his greatness when announcing the aid though. He said "“I’m the best thing that ever happened to Puerto Rico, no one even close.”

https://apnews.com/Trump shifts on Puerto Rico, releases aid as election nears

Coincidentally, or perhaps not, the Trump announcement of the disaster funds release came just three days after Biden visited Florida and unveiled a detailed recovery and renewal plan for Puerto Rico.

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/politics/Biden releases plan for Puerto Rico

https://joebiden.com/the-biden-harris-plan-for-recovery-renewal-and-respect-for-puerto-rico/
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faberryman

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2219 on: October 13, 2020, 06:28:08 pm »

Because a few weeks ago, Trump finally released $13 billion of withheld and delayed disaster relief funds for Puerto Rico, three years after Hurricane Maria devastated the island. He didn't hedge about his greatness when announcing the aid though. He said "“I’m the best thing that ever happened to Puerto Rico, no one even close.”

Thanks for filling me in on that. I missed both stories.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2020, 06:48:02 pm by faberryman »
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