Covid 19 Updates Part 2

[James Clark]

I read this but need help understanding it. US health care seems like such a rat's nest to non-Americans, https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/03/trump-obamacare-coronavirus-164285.

It sounds to me as if people who are laid off at this time lose their employer health coverage. So their other option would have been to enrol in Obamacare (sorry I don't know its official name or how to refer to it) but that enrolment had been closed. All the parties involved agreed to re-open enrolment but Trump unilaterally decided to keep enrolment closed. Instead he promised to reimburse hospitals for Covid-19 treatment.

Is my summary correct?

The article specifically referred to hospitals, is it truly hospitals only?

Also, this only promises re-imbursement for Covid-19 care only, nothing else, is this correct?

Does this mean that all those newly unemployed Americans have no health coverage other than what they buy for themselves?

Hi Robert,

In a general sense, your understanding is correct.  There are a few caveats:

1) Even if you are employed that's still not a guarantee that you have coverage in the first place.

2) If you do have coverage and are let go, you have the option of COBRA coverage, which basically allows you to continue your employer-sponsored coverage, but you have to assume the cost of it (probably between $500-1000 USD a month).  I believe you can do that for 8 months or so, but I'm not certain of the exact timeline.

3) If you DO lose your coverage, that is considered a "qualifying event" and you can then sign up for the ACA ("Obamacare") even if you are outside the usual enrollment period.

[Alan Klein]

So you’re for ratting people out?  Because that is what that post was about.  That would be so  Stalinesc. 

What’s next, hanging wooden doors from basement walls and really teach these people a lesson? 

Turm in a Jew and get 10 Marks.  Turn in an infected person and get ten face masks.

[Alan Klein]

Craig, it seems like under a declared "State of Emergency" you guys are "subjects" and your President does become a "king"...

Senate Report 93-549

War and Emergency Powers Acts     https://famguardian.org/Subjects/LawAndGovt/Articles/SenateReport93-549.htm

"These proclamations give force to 470 provisions of Federal law. These hundreds of statutes delegate to the President extraordinary powers, ordinarily exercised by the Congress, which affect the lives of American citizens in a host of all-encompassing manners. This vast range of powers, taken together, confer enough authority to rule the country without reference to normal Constitutional processes.

Under the powers delegated by these statutes, the President may:
seize property; organize and control the means of production; seize commodities; assign military forces abroad; institute martial law; seize and control all transportation and communication; regulate the operation of private enterprise; restrict travel; and, in a plethora of particular ways, control the lives of all American citizens."

If this is the case then, the way I see it, the haphazard response of the USA is in the hands of one person...

That's why we have the second Amendment protecting the right to bear arms.  But the main issue it that while there are Congressional laws on the books that give the president huge power, they all have not been tested constitutionally.  As the Muslim Ban showed, the president cannot act unconstitutionally.  His power is restricted. Additionally, the War Powers act is for armed conflict with other nations, not a medical emergency.  So many of those powers would not apply in this situation.   I do agree the government has too much power and has flaunted the constitution with Supreme Court acceptance.  But our constitution has protected our liberty for the most part and still does today after 230 years, a surprising bright statistic in the awful history of most governments.

[hogloff]

You want me to stick to it, start showing me concrete numbers. 

If you cant, too bad.  I'd rather keep the economy afloat then having it all burn down due to some maybe this or maybe that, we just dont know, you cant trust models anyway but you need to do this just because jargon.

We'll show me the numbers like you say the impact on the economy and how many will starve to death or committ suicide or go out gun fighting in the street. Show me the numbers on how the economy will destroy you. Show me the numbers on how long it will take to get the economy back to normal.

[Rob C]

So you’re for ratting people out?  Because that is what that post was about.  That would be so  Stalinesc. 

What’s next, hanging wooden doors from basement walls and really teach these people a lesson?

In the present circumstances, and considering we speak of the difference between life and death, damned sure I would approve of "ratting them out" as you like to put it.

This is not some pathetic little school playground situation; I would have thought any adult would appreciate the differences of both circumstance and degree. Apparently, not always so in the States. However, it does go some way to understamding the juvenile approach to guns, politics, lying leaders and the absolute absorption with self.

[hogloff]

Would you be willing to sacrifice your loved ones for the economy, or perhaps only those of others?

Or possibly yourself. I just can't see anyone so selfish that they would go out against orders with the knowledge they could infect someone that can die from the disease. I have not heard exactly how Joe is suffering being cooped up in his home.

[Alan Klein]

I read this but need help understanding it. US health care seems like such a rat's nest to non-Americans, https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/03/trump-obamacare-coronavirus-164285.

It sounds to me as if people who are laid off at this time lose their employer health coverage. So their other option would have been to enrol in Obamacare (sorry I don't know its official name or how to refer to it) but that enrolment had been closed. All the parties involved agreed to re-open enrolment but Trump unilaterally decided to keep enrolment closed. Instead he promised to reimburse hospitals for Covid-19 treatment.

Is my summary correct?

The article specifically referred to hospitals, is it truly hospitals only?

Also, this only promises re-imbursement for Covid-19 care only, nothing else, is this correct?

Does this mean that all those newly unemployed Americans have no health coverage other than what they buy for themselves?

All bets are off.  Trump and the Republicans have thrown in with the Democrats.  They all will spend and print whatever it takes to get re-elected. The money machine will continue to run ad infinitum. 

Why does everyone want to only talk about American issues.  Why has the Italian and Spanish health care not done it's job.  I understand despite all the public clamor here, America has 5 times the number of ventilators than Europe has.  Why has European health system failed in many cases? Why weren't they prepared?

[Alan Klein]

And maybe you could spend your time researching USA civics, so when you criticize our government you will actually understand how it works. 

FYI, I use to be a devote liberal Democrat in my early to mid-20s.  I've done my soul-searching already. 

You know the expression.  If you're not a liberal at 18, you have no soul.  If you're still a liberal at 48, you have no brains. 

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Point me to the studies Rob. 

Show me a definitive amount (or even just a small range, not the it could 50K or 2M more).

I have been looking and no one can. But you know what, people's lives will be completely ruined if we continue this, and for you to discount that is very discouraging.

Don't know about your country, but in my country we can trust the information from the government which has its Outbreak Management Team that is operating based on scientific facts. Such facts differ by country and region, but there's a lot of similarity between them but also some differences (e.g. how well people adhere to the official advice). Whenever there is new information, the public advice will be adjusted, so it is not a static situation but it does allow to adjust based on the latest facts.

Yesterday the police arrested and fined a group of 30 knuckleheads who gathered in a bar in a Fuck Corona party (bars and restaurants are officially closed). On top of the ticket of €400 for each and €4000 for the owner, maybe they should be put in mandatory quarantine since they've proven that they are unfit to participate in a civilized society anyway. That behavior may also result in an adjustment for that city's rules for public behavior, because of the changed risk profile.

We'll leave the tar and feathers approach to the 'social' media.

[Alan Klein]

It would be interesting to see how cutting back on restrictions and a return to work could happen on the ground. There's no mystery anymore about how risky the bug is, so if the word came out that people should go back to work today, I wonder how many people would say, "Ok, you first." People might see it as that first wave out of the trenches.

You keep repeating that we don't know how many will die. Well, maybe not to the third decimal but I'd say we have a pretty good idea by now, or the rest of us do, I don't know why you don't. The blanket statement that experts don't all agree is pure silliness. We know enough so we know what to do today. When new data emerge we'll know more. That is how everything works. 

I agree.  Most places won;t re-open for the few that want to use their services.  So places will stay closed now until the virus passes.  The question is then what?  Will the huge economic stimulus encourage businesses to open up again?

I was reading a few days ago that Michigan (I believe) expected fully 1/3 of their restaurants to never open again.  That's around 6000 business.  Multiply that across the country and add so many others that just won't make it regardless what they want to do.  What good is getting a loan from the government if people don;t respond and go back to business as normal.  I really hope we all do.  But considering the hit people have taken to their 401K' and loss of jobs, it's going to be a long hard road.

The problem is we're starting off with huge debt already. State governments and the Federal government is broke.  Corporate loans are huge.  People won't be able to pay their mortgages and car loans or college loans.  How will they pay credit card debt?  Inflation is going to kick in raising prices to the sky with a lot less work.  It remind me of "stagflation" of the 1970s.  That even though the economy was sinking, and you'd expect lower prices, the opposite happened and prices were going up at the same time people were losing jobs and companies closing.  I think we're in for a real disaster.  SHould the virus then hit again next year (assuming it stops this year), it will all start over again. 

Let's hope I'm wrong and this thing ends soon. That the economy rebounds as quickly as possible and we can all get on with our lives. 

[Alan Klein]

Rob it’s a CHOICE, not a demand.  Now if Trump spends time out with people who have not been vetted for the virus, and he’s not wearing a mask, complain to your hearts content.  To critique him from not wearing a mask in his home and office is simply silly.

Btw, do you know they are now using the 15  min test for the virus for people who see the President?

And while we are on the complaining kick, did your Sky News people have on masks?  Do the press at Trumps briefing wear masks? 

He acknowledged at the news conference that everyone was tested including him and they're all negative.  So wearing  a mask would serve no purpose.   I wonder if the news reporters were tested as well? I can't imagine the Secret Service letting them or anyone else in without getting tested. 

[hogloff]

I agree.  Most places won;t re-open for the few that want to use their services.  So places will stay closed now until the virus passes.  The question is then what?  Will the huge economic stimulus encourage businesses to open up again?

I was reading a few days ago that Michiga (I believe) expected full 1/3 of their restaurant to never open again.  That's around 6000 business.  Multiply that acros the country and add so many others that juts won't make it regardless what they want to do.  What good is getting a loadn from the government if people don;t respond and go back to business as normal.  I really hope we all do.  But considering the hit people have taken to their 401K' and loss of jobs, it's going to be a long hard road.

The problem is we're starting off with huge debt already. State governments and the Federal government is broke.  Corporate loans are huge.  People won't be able to pay their mortgages and car loans or college loans.  How will they pay credit card debt?  Inflation is going to kick in raising prices to the sky with a lot less work.  It remind me of "stagflation" of the 1970s.  That even though the economy was sinking, and you'd expect lower prices, the opposite happened and prices were going up at the same time people were losing jobs and companies closing.  I think we're in for a real disaster.  SHould the virus than hit again next year (assuming it stops this year), it will all start over again. 

Let's hope I'm wrong and this thing ends soon. That the economy rebounds as quickly as possible and we can all get on with our lives.

If there's a need, a business will open. In my city which is very dependant on the tourists to drive the business, many restaurants close up every year...just to be replaced with new restaurants next year. Demand drives the restaurants. Recovery won't be instinct...but if demand is there, restaurants and other businesses will come back.

One thing certain...those that succumb to the virus will never come back...well maybe in India where the belief of reincarnation is very strong.

[Alan Klein]

Would you be willing to sacrifice your loved ones for the economy, or perhaps only those of others?

False choice.  The economy hasn't shutdown totally.  How are you getting your food?  Many people are working.  They're taking precautions to not infect others nor get infected themselves.

[hogloff]

He acknowledged at the news conference that everyone was tested including him and they're all negative.  So wearing  a mask would serve no purpose.   I wonder if the news reporters were tested as well? I can't imagine the Secret Service letting them or anyone else in without getting tested.

You got to be continually tested because you don't know that door handle you just opened didn't have the virus on it just waiting for a host.

[KLaban]

False choice.  The economy hasn't shutdown totally.  How are you getting your food?  Many people are working.  They're taking precautions to not infect others nor get infected themselves.

Those who ignore the measures put themselves, their loved ones, other folk and other folk's loved ones at increased risk.

[Alan Klein]

If there's a need, a business will open. In my city which is very dependant on the tourists to drive the business, many restaurants close up every year...just to be replaced with new restaurants next year. Demand drives the restaurants. Recovery won't be instinct...but if demand is there, restaurants and other businesses will come back.

One thing certain...those that succumb to the virus will never come back...well maybe in India where the belief of reincarnation is very strong.

That's not so bad.  Maybe we'd come back as rajahs. 

[Alan Klein]

You got to be continually tested because you don't know that door handle you just opened didn't have the virus on it just waiting for a host.

Trump was tested the day before.  Even if you get infected now, it still takes a number of days to incubate before you can spread it to others.  You're getting paranoiac. Of course if he did get it, and coughed at the news conference and gave it to Jim Acosta, it would make his day. 

[hogloff]

False choice.  The economy hasn't shutdown totally.  How are you getting your food?  Many people are working.  They're taking precautions to not infect others nor get infected themselves.

And yet with all these protective measures, the infected numbers continue to rise sharply. Wonder what their numbers would be if everyone returned to work.

[hogloff]

That's not so bad.  Maybe we'd come back as rajahs.

The belief is depending on how much Karma one accumulates, they might come back in a better position than when they left or in a lower class. In your case Alan, if you break your isolation and go out...I would think you'd lose a bunch of Karma and maybe come back as a rat.

[Alan Klein]

Those who ignore the measures put themselves, their loved ones, other folk and other folk's loved ones at increased risk.

I agree that we all want to be reasonable.  But everyone has a different situation.  For example, my wife and I are retired.  We're not working. We both get Social Security and government pensions. We're both on Medicare so health costs aren't an issue.  Those will continue regardless.  So we'll be OK.  We're lucky, well, except we're old farts.

I've been speaking with a lot of younger people who work and are not now.  They've been laid off.  They're worried sick they cannot pay their bills, feed their families, will lose their health insurance, their cars, their homes.  They have children in college, well, they're home now. But how will they afford tuition?  Starving forces people to do crazy stuff.  In Stalingrad during WWII, people became cannibals to eat, cutting arms off of the dead lying in the street.