Luminous Landscape Forum
The Art of Photography => The Coffee Corner => Topic started by: Alan Klein on March 28, 2020, 02:31:23 pm
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The last thread was opened and closed so often, it was making my head spin. So I started this one and promise never to close it and let it die out naturally.
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Speaking about dying. Over 30,000 deaths globally, over 1,900 in USA alone. Next projection - 40,000 by March 31.
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Yawn. Wake me up when it passes the usual 50-60K deaths from regular flu every year (in the States).
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Yawn. Wake me up when it passes the usual 50-60K deaths from regular flu every year (in the States).
On March 1st, 2020, the first Covid-19 death was reported in the USA.
On March 28th, 2020, 1988 people have died and the numbers are growing exponentially.
That's not counting the number of deaths from other causes due to ICUs being overwhelmed.
In a year's time? We'll see.
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Alan, Slobodan, Craig & Joe:
On 20th January 2020 the first case of Covid was reported in the US. On the same day the first case was reported in South Korea.
Today (as per Johns Hopkins https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6) the US has 116 505 cases & 1925 deaths.
South Korea have 9478 cases and 144 deaths.
Please explain this.
If you need a hint, read this: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/mar/28/trump-coronavirus-politics-us-health-disaster
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On March 1st, 2020, the first Covid-19 death was reported in the USA.
On March 28th, 2020, 1988 people have died and the numbers are growing exponentially.
That's not counting the number of deaths from other causes due to ICUs being overwhelmed.
In a year's time? We'll see.
I'm guessing also the year end time frame.
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Alan, Slobodan, Craig & Joe:
On 20th January 2020 the first case of Covid was reported in the US. On the same day the first case was reported in South Korea.
Today (as per Johns Hopkins https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6) the US has 116 505 cases & 1925 deaths.
South Korea have 9478 cases and 144 deaths. Please explain this.
If you need a hint, read this: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/mar/28/trump-coronavirus-politics-us-health-disaster
One possible explanation is that by the time the first US case was recognized, there were already many unreported or in-progress cases there.
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Alan, Slobodan, Craig & Joe:
On 20th January 2020 the first case of Covid was reported in the US. On the same day the first case was reported in South Korea.
Today (as per Johns Hopkins https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6) the US has 116 505 cases & 1925 deaths.
South Korea have 9478 cases and 144 deaths.
Please explain this.
If you need a hint, read this: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/mar/28/trump-coronavirus-politics-us-health-disaster
So whats the difference? One country is small, the other is massive,and has a constitution which limited what it could do in regards to personal liberty, a system of 50 states who mosty control their own destiny, massive federal government with many agencies all wanting power and control and a population who seemed to care less. Couple that with a CDC who had it head firmly planted where the sun don't shine.
If you want to say "its Trumps" fault, have at it.
BTW the death rate between the two countries as a percentage of cases is .015 for S.Korea and .016 for the US.
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Tis but a scratch...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmInkxbvlCs
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One possible explanation is that by the time the first US case was recognized, there were already many unreported or in-progress cases there.
You could apply the same explanation to South Korea.....?
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So whats the difference? One country is small, the other is massive,and has a constitution which limited what it could do in regards to personal liberty, a system of 50 states who mosty control their own destiny, massive federal government with many agencies all wanting power and control and a population who seemed to care less. Couple that with a CDC who had it head firmly planted where the sun don't shine.
If you want to say "its Trumps" fault, have at it.
BTW the death rate between the two countries as a percentage of cases is .015 for S.Korea and .016 for the US.
You clearly did not read The Gaurdian article I attached...did you?
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The last thread was opened and closed so often, it was making my head spin. So I started this one and promise never to close it and let it die out naturally.
I should have let it locked long ago. It was supposed be a factual discussion but alas that didn't pan out, I couldn't bear to be its initiator. It also led to a PM from one couldn't live without having the last word.
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I should have let it locked long ago. It was supposed be a factual discussion but alas that didn't pan out, I couldn't bear to be its initiator. It also led to a PM from one couldn't live without having the last word.
Well, it was bad form on your part to end the topic after adding a snarky response.
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Well, it was bad form on your part to end the topic after adding a snarky response.
I admit, I'm guilty. I just wanted it to be over with; and I didn't think the response to you was snarky ...
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I admit, I'm guilty. I just want it to be over with; and I din't think the response to you was snarky ...
Just making a point, perhaps in a more ironic way then what it actually was.
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You clearly did not read The Gaurdian article I attached...did you?
Every word. What’s your point? You founded a couple of writers that want to blame the whole thing on Trump?
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I should have let it locked long ago. It was supposed be a factual discussion but alas that didn't pan out, I couldn't bear to be its initiator. It also led to a PM from one couldn't live without having the last word.
I’m not the one who had to bug out when the going got tough....
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Alan, Slobodan, Craig & Joe:
On 20th January 2020 the first case of Covid was reported in the US. On the same day the first case was reported in South Korea.
Today (as per Johns Hopkins https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6) the US has 116 505 cases & 1925 deaths.
South Korea have 9478 cases and 144 deaths.
Please explain this.
If you need a hint, read this: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/mar/28/trump-coronavirus-politics-us-health-disaster
Well, anti-Trumpers guessed wrong when they said Trump was going to start WWIII. So I guess they'll have to settle for Covid-19. Meanwhile 60 % of Americans think he's doing pretty good with the virus response. The other 40% are Democrats.
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Alan, Slobodan, Craig & Joe:
On 20th January 2020 the first case of Covid was reported in the US. On the same day the first case was reported in South Korea.
Today (as per Johns Hopkins https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6) the US has 116 505 cases & 1925 deaths.
South Korea have 9478 cases and 144 deaths.
Please explain this...
On a per capita basis, the two states are rather close to each other, without taking all other differences, cultural, political, etc. into account.
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William Walker,
South Korea had a pretty well developed testing infrastructure due to H1N1, which they used to their advantage in this outbreak. By pure luck, H1N1 caused this infrastructure to already be set up in their country and helped them immensely.
In comparison, the USA, and every other western country, did not need to worry about H1N1 nearly as much and did not have a need to develop this infrastructure. This disparity is what is making SK so much more prepared then many others, including the USA.
Thanks for the left wing propaganda though.
Second, as Slobo points out, population surely has a big part of it as well. Namely the fact that the USA has a much higher population than SK.
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William Walker,
South Korea had a pretty well developed testing infrastructure due to H1N1, which they used to their advantage in this outbreak. By pure luck, H1N1 caused this infrastructure to already be set up in their country and helped them immensely.
In comparison, the USA, and every other western country, did not need to worry about H1N1 nearly as much and did not have a need to develop this infrastructure. This disparity is what is making SK so much more prepared then many others, including the USA.
Thanks for the left wing propaganda though.
Second, as Slobo points out, population surely has a big part of it as well. Namely the fact that the USA has a much higher population than SK.
South Korea is a much more insular country than the USA. People including foreigners travel more freely in America especially to the big cities like NY and New Orleans. Americans pay less attention to rules.
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Wow. Frankly, I don't think it would help. The cat's out of the bag. But if Trump is suggesting it, then even he thinks this thing is getting out of hand. But is it stoppable?
Trump says he's considering short-term quarantine of parts of New York, New Jersey, Connecticut
https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/28/politics/trump-new-york-new-jersey-quarantine-coronavirus/index.html
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South Korea is a much more insular country than the USA.
That's not at all my experience nor the experience of others I've know who lived and taught there. Are you basing that on something or just gut feel? Nothing wrong with gut feel but you can't often rely on it unless you have some special knowledge.
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Wow. Frankly, I don't think it would help. The cat's out of the bag. But if Trump is suggesting it, then even he thinks this thing is getting out of hand. But is it stoppable?
Trump says he's considering short-term quarantine of parts of New York, New Jersey, Connecticut
https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/28/politics/trump-new-york-new-jersey-quarantine-coronavirus/index.html
I don't think he has the authority to do this, based on what I'm reading.
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That's not at all my experience nor the experience of others I've know who lived and taught there. Are you basing that on something or just gut feel? Nothing wrong with gut feel but you can't often rely on it unless you have some special knowledge.
I could be wrong. I spent two years in Japan in the 1960's in the USAF. Japan then and now is an insular society. You can't immigrate there and become a citizen without huge difficulties. I assume it's the same in SK, but I could be wrong. The point is the people think similarly because they have the same heritage, same genes, same language, same background. In America, we're so diverse due to being an immigrant nation. That's a blessing and a curse. A blessing because the variety of people's allows huge creativity, experience, thought and action. The curse is we bicker a lot and and like our independent thinking and action at times when it might be better to act together. I could be wrong about that now. After all, this is like war which has united us in the past to great and united action. Maybe the virus will bring that out in us again. I certainly hope so but the politics of the upcoming election seems to keep getting in the way.
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South Korea is a much more insular country than the USA. People including foreigners travel more freely in America especially to the big cities like NY and New Orleans. Americans pay less attention to rules.
Alan,if you have never lived or worked there don’t speculate. Some of us have spent time in the culture and at least grasp the basics. SK was able to get better initial control due to their previous experience as mentioned previously and set up a plan and structure to respond when the next epidemic hit. Their government had the ability to force compliance as well. Not too different from what China did. As you mentioned, many Americans don't like to be told what to do.
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On a per capita basis, the two states are rather close to each other, without taking all other differences, cultural, political, etc. into account.
Also Italy and Spain show very similar counts. Maybe because both nations have similar life styles in terms of socializing?
The most surprising thing is Switzerland on the top. One would think, that the Swiss are very law abiding and safety minded and that they practice the social distance recommendations. Why then such a high mortality?
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I could be wrong. I spent two years in Japan in the 1960's in the USAF. Japan then and now is an insular society. You can't immigrate there and become a citizen without huge difficulties. I assume it's the same in SK, but I could be wrong. The point is the people think similarly because they have the same heritage, same genes, same language, same background. In America, we're so diverse due to being an immigrant nation. That's a blessing and a curse. A blessing because the variety of people's allows huge creativity, experience, thought and action. The curse is we bicker a lot and and like our independent thinking and action at times when it might be better to act together. I could be wrong about that now. After all, this is like war which has united us in the past to great and united action. Maybe the virus will bring that out in us again. I certainly hope so but the politics of the upcoming election seems to keep getting in the way.
Alan,
Were you able to live away from the base and get out of the American culture while you were there ?
I don’t mean the weekend pass kind of opportunity around the bases.. it really makes a difference.
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Please explain this.
Face masks
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Also Italy and Spain show very similar counts. Maybe because both nations have similar life styles in terms of socializing?...
If I would try to be flippant, which I would never do, of course, I would point out the similarities in national attitudes: la dolce vita for Italy, and siesta i fiesta for Spain ;)
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Face masks
My example of Slovakia in post #2 would confirm that, they didn't report any fatalities yet. Another such example is Singapore with only 2 deaths.
Both countries mandated wearing masks all the time while outside their homes.
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If I would try to be flippant, which I would never do, of course, I would point out the similarities in national attitudes: la dolce vita for Italy, and siesta i fiesta for Spain ;)
Lot of hugging, kissing and close-contact fighting in both countries.
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Alan,
Were you able to live away from the base and get out of the American culture while you were there ?
I don’t mean the weekend pass kind of opportunity around the bases.. it really makes a difference.
Well, the point I was making is that the cultures of America and Japan or South Korea are very different. How Americans react to government and other authority is very different than how Koreans and Japanese react.
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My example of Slovakia in post #2 would confirm that, they didn't report any fatalities yet. Another such example is Singapore with only 2 deaths.
Both countries mandated wearing masks all the time while outside their homes.
Where do you find face masks? I've ordered them, but they're not coming until April something if they come then. The price is about 4 times what they should be. One mask I was following suddenly disappeared off of Amazon including the seller. He must have been ripping people off. If the infection rates go up and it spreads more widely, there's going to be shortages of all kinds of stuff. Maybe I should stock up on toilet paper. ;)
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Cuomo: Travel Restrictions On New York Are ‘Federal Act Of War’
http://dailycallernewsfoundation.org/2020/03/28/cuomo-travel-restrictions-on-new-york-are-federal-act-of-war
Cuomo also criticized Trump’s suggestion of limiting travel from the tri-state area. Trump told reporters he is concerned about travel from New York to Florida, which is a frequent destination for retired New Yorkers.
“This would be a declaration of war on states, a federal declaration of war,” Cuomo said of any travel ban.
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Where do you find face masks? I've ordered them, but they're not coming until April something if they come then. The price is about 4 times what they should be. One mask I was following suddenly disappeared off of Amazon including the seller. He must have been ripping people off. If the infection rates go up and it spreads more widely, there's going to be shortages of all kinds of stuff. Maybe I should stock up on toilet paper. ;)
Personally, I don't have any flu or Covid-19 mask, but I don't go out much.
I was thinking about using my underwater mask with the snorkel, because in that configuration I would need just a small piece of fabric to wrap around the snorkel opening, but such a mask would be much heavier than a cotton-based mask.
Health authorities in parts of Asia have encouraged all citizens to wear masks in public to prevent the spread of the virus, regardless of whether they have symptoms. And the Czech Republic and Slovakia took the uncommon step last week of making nose and mouth coverings mandatory in public spaces, prompting a grassroots drive to hand make masks.
Many people make their own masks using cotton pieces. Although they are not quite as effective as the expensive head masks with face shields, they can be much better and longer lasting than the flimsy mass-produced masks.
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/03/would-everyone-wearing-face-masks-help-us-slow-pandemic
https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/health/a31902442/how-to-make-medical-face-masks/
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I think Cuomo may have effectively chilled Trump's NY quarantine idea. He said the stock market "would drop like a stone."
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Also Italy and Spain show very similar counts. Maybe because both nations have similar life styles in terms of socializing?
The most surprising thing is Switzerland on the top. One would think, that the Swiss are very law abiding and safety minded and that they practice the social distance recommendations. Why then such a high mortality?
Milan (and the surrounding area) was hit hard, I suspect, because of extensive travel between that fashion center and the fashion manufacturers in China. New York was hit hard because thousands of travelers from everywhere, including China, Milan and other hot spots, arrived there daily. New Orleans got hit because they went ahead and held Mardi Gras, attracting tens of thousands of people both nationally and internationally. Switzerland is a major destination for people who need to do safe, confidential banking, and also for skiing. Many, many Chinese traveled there. The travel/tourist nodes are the one getting hit the hardest.
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I think Cuomo may have effectively chilled Trump's NY quarantine idea. He said the stock market "would drop like a stone."
Maybe. Remember, Cuomo initially said, in so many words, that De Blaiso was crazy to call for a shut down of NYC, then two days later called for a shut down of NYC himself.
I dont see Cuomo having much foresight right now. It's a sad world when De Blasio can out see someone.
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Personally, I don't have any flu or Covid-19 mask, but I don't go out much.
I was thinking about using my underwater mask with the snorkel, because in that configuration I would need just a small piece of fabric to wrap around the snorkel opening, but such a mask would be much heavier than a cotton-based mask.
Many people make their own masks using cotton pieces. Although they are not quite as effective as the expensive head masks with face shields, they can be much better and longer lasting than the flimsy mass-produced masks.
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/03/would-everyone-wearing-face-masks-help-us-slow-pandemic
https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/health/a31902442/how-to-make-medical-face-masks/
Dump the snorkel and be a real man. Put on a scuba tank and carry your own air. All the girls will be impressed.
What should make good fabric for homemade face masks is the mite proof fabric you use on mattresses and pillows. No covad-19 would dare try to get thru something a mite can't handle.
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Yawn. Wake me up when it passes the usual 50-60K deaths from regular flu every year (in the States).
Be careful what you wish for.
Once USA gets to Italy's level of fatalities (1,000 deaths per day), it will take only two months for 50-60K deaths.
With an average of 350 deaths per day, it will take 5 months to get past 50K deaths.
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Yawn. Wake me up when it passes the usual 50-60K deaths from regular flu every year (in the States).
40-60,000 in the states isn't usual; it's unusual. The typical total is between 20,000 and 40,000, spread over eight months or a bit more. Even at the higher number, that's 5,000 deaths per month, or 100 deaths a month -- three or four a day -- in a state of average population and average infection rates. That's hardly noticeable when nearly 3 million people a year die in the US from all causes. What's frightening here, of course, is the trajectory of the current infection, and the death rate. We have two thousand dead now, I suspect in a week we'll have eight thousand dead, and by the middle of the month of April, perhaps fifty thousand dead, and it won't be slowing down. I really, really hope I don't have to wake you up, but be ready for it sometime in the middle of April.
Frankly, and I don't mean this to sound either demeaning or threatening, I really wouldn't want to be in your shoes or Alan's if we get three or four hundred thousand dead and people on this forum begin reprinting your comments for contemplation...you know, like, "Yawn. Wake me up..."
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How much would you be willing to pay to reduce your odds of dying from the coronavirus from 1.0% to 0.1%?
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-should-the-government-spend-to-save-a-life/ (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-should-the-government-spend-to-save-a-life/)
(https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AAapsCy.img?h=0&w=720&m=6&q=60&u=t&o=f&l=f&x=1291&y=825)
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And
If the average age of Americans who die from coronavirus is 81 and the average age of Americans who die from other causes is 79,
Would that suggest those who die from coronavirus were done for already?
On average.
(https://more-music-videos.icu/images/the-byrds-turnturn-turn_bb0jpeti/139.jpg)
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Lockdown, what lockdown? Sweden's unusual response to coronavirus https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52076293
While swathes of Europe's population endure lockdown conditions in the face of the coronavirus outbreak, one country stands almost alone in allowing life to go on much closer to normal.
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Yawn. Wake me up when it passes the usual 50-60K deaths from regular flu every year (in the States).
Slobodan, apologies for disturbing your sleep, but I fear it wouldn't have been much of a lie-in.
Seriously, the compassion you display towards humanity never ceases to amaze.
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Also Italy and Spain show very similar counts. Maybe because both nations have similar life styles in terms of socializing?
The most surprising thing is Switzerland on the top. One would think, that the Swiss are very law abiding and safety minded and that they practice the social distance recommendations. Why then such a high mortality?
Wintersports, Tourism?
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Slobodan, apologies for disturbing your sleep, but I fear it wouldn't have been much of a lie-in.
Seriously, the compassion you display towards humanity never ceases to amaze.
It is called being realistic.
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It is called being realistic.
... or uninformed.
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Deathrates cannot yet be compared between countries.
Even in my country, currently people who have died from Covid-19 are not immediately tested for Covid-19. The available testcapacity is needed for prevention. Once people are dead it is not urgent to diagnose the cause other than respiratory failure. Statistics can be improved after the prevention of more caualies, when there is some time to spare.
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I've come across several articles which mention that 99% of those who die from Covid-19 have other serious medical conditions. This implies that the Covid-19 virus might be just 'the last straw that broke the camel's back', and that those who are healthy, with no medical conditions such as diabetes or high blood pressure, are safe, and will experience relatively mild symptoms if they are exposed to the virus.
However, such articles always seen to mention just Italy, which seems to imply that Italians, especially the elderly, are very unhealthy. I'm wondering if this is a general principle that applies in all countries, that is, if you are healthy without any medical conditions, whatever your age, you will have an extremely low risk of dying from Covid-19 infection.
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I've come across several articles which mention that 99% of those who die from Covid-19 have other serious medical conditions. This implies that the Covid-19 virus might be just 'the last straw that broke the camel's back', and that those who are healthy, with no medical conditions such as diabetes or high blood pressure, are safe, and will experience relatively mild symptoms if they are exposed to the virus.
However, such articles always seen to mention just Italy, which seems to imply that Italians, especially the elderly, are very unhealthy. I'm wondering if this is a general principle that applies in all countries, that is, if you are healthy without any medical conditions, whatever your age, you will have an extremely low risk of dying from Covid-19 infection.
I think you'd be very, very lucky indeed to hit your late seventies without some form of permanent illness for which you have to take pills for the rest of your days just to survive. I don't believe that I know anyone of my age who doesn't have regular medical visits. In normal times, at least we can expect to have those visits granted. Not these days: I have been waiting for an appointment to have an ultrasound scan of my stomach for quite some weeks now; I have no idea if any are being done, and whether all resources are totally focussed and redeployed on Corona. If anything serious is found too late, you could say that I, too, died due to Coronavirus.
But it is far from being the case that only the old and decrepit are falling. Perhaps they are the majority for whom it proves fatal, but that doesn't imply the younger ones are not seriously affected and endangered.
;-)
Rob
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I've come across several articles which mention that 99% of those who die from Covid-19 have other serious medical conditions. This implies that the Covid-19 virus might be just 'the last straw that broke the camel's back', and that those who are healthy, with no medical conditions such as diabetes or high blood pressure, are safe, and will experience relatively mild symptoms if they are exposed to the virus.
However, such articles always seen to mention just Italy, which seems to imply that Italians, especially the elderly, are very unhealthy. I'm wondering if this is a general principle that applies in all countries, that is, if you are healthy without any medical conditions, whatever your age, you will have an extremely low risk of dying from Covid-19 infection.
The elderly are always at higher risk, due to lower resistance. Additional medical conditions stack the odds against them even more. But do not make the mistake to assume that young people do not die, they do. Just in lower numbers, but their death by suffocation is as horrible as with other casualties.
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The elderly are always at higher risk, due to lower resistance. Additional medical conditions stack the odds against them even more. But do not make the mistake to assume that young people do not die, they do. Just in lower numbers, but their death by suffocation is as horrible as with other casualties.
I understand, but the point I'm trying to clarify is whether the elderly are at higher risk because most of them already have medical problems. Young people tend to have fewer medical problems, and therefore are at less risk of dying after they get infected. Do we have any statistical evidence of young people who are free of any other medical problems, dying of Covid-19?
For example, I'm 77 and therefore, presumably, at greater risk of dying if I were to become infected. However, I have no medical problems at all. I exercise regularly and eat a wholesome diet. I also fast for a few days now and again, to help my body fix any emerging problems and boost my immune system.
I suspect that Covid-19 might not be a serious threat to me. However, I'm aware that I could still pass on the virus to others, and therefore comply with the 'social distancing' rules.
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... Do we have any statistical evidence of young people who are free of any other medical problems, dying of Covid-19?...
Not statistical, probably too early, but there are anecdotal evidence, as reported in the news.
On a personal note, two of my young (30s), healthy, no-prior condition friends ended up hospitalized with pneumonia and positive on Corona. We were, together with their parents, wifes, girlfriends, etc. at the same concert they performed at. I spent two weeks in bed with relatively mild symptoms (dry cough), one guy's parents too, the wife, kids, girlfriend, all had minor symptoms and quickly recovered. The two guys are still hospitalized. Go figure.
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I understand, but the point I'm trying to clarify is whether the elderly are at higher risk because most of them already have medical problems. Young people tend to have fewer medical problems, and therefore are at less risk of dying after they get infected. Do we have any statistical evidence of young people who are free of any other medical problems, dying of Covid-19?
It may be too early to tell. One thing that I'm told is that on average, each degree Celsius of Fever (say above 37C) raises the heart rate by 10 strokes a minute. That takes energy. When otherwise in good health, that energy may be available for a while (regardless of age), but not indefinitely. So it will drain energy that should be directed at other vital processes, like breathing and getting rid of fluid buildup in the lungs.
For example, I'm 77 and therefore, presumably, at greater risk of dying if I were to become infected. However, I have no medical problems at all. I exercise regularly and eat a wholesome diet. I also fast for a few days now and again, to help my body fix any emerging problems and boost my immune system.
That's the best you can do as basic starting point to improve your chances, but it won't safeguard against getting infected. Vitamin C also doesn't.
It's about contact with the virus, that's all it takes.
So the best thing to do, until there is a vaccine, is to reduce the risk of getting infected. That not only involves you, but also those who come in contact.
I suspect that Covid-19 might not be a serious threat to me. However, I'm aware that I could still pass on the virus to others, and therefore comply with the 'social distancing' rules.
Exactly, as should all who care about their fellow man, including healthcare workers who may need to save the lives of others.
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Not statistical, probably too early, but there are anecdotal evidence, as reported in the news.
On a personal note, two of my young (30s), healthy, no-prior condition friends ended up hospitalized with pneumonia and positive on Corona. We were, together with their parents, wifes, girlfriends, etc. at the same concert they performed at. I spent two weeks in bed with relatively mild symptoms (dry cough), one guy's parents too, the wife, kids, girlfriend, all had minor symptoms and quickly recovered. The two guys are still hospitalized. Go figure.
One can't 'figure' without reliable information. Your young (30s), healthy, no-prior condition friends, might have had some other infection in addition to Covid-19. Personal medical details tend to be kept private.
What sparked this inquiry was seeing a number of reports that 99% of deaths in Italy from Covid-19 were related to existing medical conditions.
Best wishes for your friends.
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One can't 'figure' without reliable information. Your young (30s), healthy, no-prior condition friends, might have had some other infection in addition to Covid-19. Personal medical details tend to be kept private.
And even then, genetics may play a role. While I'm also curious, it's just too soon to tell.
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... or uninformed.
Even well informed people will respond to dire circumstances in different ways. How else do we explain heroic actions in emergencies. One needs to be aware of the safety of self and others...
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And
If the average age of Americans who die from coronavirus is 81 and the average age of Americans who die from other causes is 79,
Would that suggest those who die from coronavirus were done for already?
On average.
(https://more-music-videos.icu/images/the-byrds-turnturn-turn_bb0jpeti/139.jpg)
John, I never said deaths weren't tragic. What I said that if this thing turns out to be a lot less the common flu, we have to think in terms of those comparable numbers. Are we over-reacting. There are dangers to that as well as doing nothing. Like most things, a middle path probably is the best approach. God forbid the number goes up to the amount you've indicated. Of course, isolation and other measure we're taking are reducing the spread. So it could be that the final number could have been a lot worse had we not taken those measures. Certainly I believe the threat. I see the numbers just like you. So I haven't been out of my house hardly. I just got through wiping everything down again with Lysol. I'm 75 and have medical issues that make me a bad candidate for catching this thing.
However, I always like looking at issues from both sides and be a devil's advocate for the less popular opinion (usually). It's stimulating and keeps me on my toes.
It's easy to get into group think. It's like preaching to the choir and everyone's patting everyone else on the back. I try to avoid it. Otherwise you get stuck in one mode of thinking and might be making errors. Plus looking at different sides brings out things people haven;t thought of that may provide solutions no one had previously thought of. Anyway I like being a maverick.
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I've come across several articles which mention that 99% of those who die from Covid-19 have other serious medical conditions. This implies that the Covid-19 virus might be just 'the last straw that broke the camel's back', and that those who are healthy, with no medical conditions such as diabetes or high blood pressure, are safe, and will experience relatively mild symptoms if they are exposed to the virus.
However, such articles always seen to mention just Italy, which seems to imply that Italians, especially the elderly, are very unhealthy. I'm wondering if this is a general principle that applies in all countries, that is, if you are healthy without any medical conditions, whatever your age, you will have an extremely low risk of dying from Covid-19 infection.
Unfortunately, I haven;t seen statistics that break these things out. You'd think we'd be getting these numbers daily considering how much of the world has the same problem. I guess doctors are too busy to do the tests or don;t have the equipment or test kits to do it. As an old fart with medical issues, it certainly got me worried.
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What sparked this inquiry was seeing a number of reports that 99% of deaths in Italy from Covid-19 were related to existing medical conditions.
I don't believe that's accurate. I suspect it's ' 99% of deaths had pre-existing medical conditions ' which is entirely different from saying that it was related to an existing medical condition.
And I most definitely question the 99% number. Knowing your prediliction for accuracy, 'm guessing that that was figurative rather than literal.
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How much would you be willing to pay to reduce your odds of dying from the coronavirus from 1.0% to 0.1%?
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-should-the-government-spend-to-save-a-life/ (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-should-the-government-spend-to-save-a-life/)
(https://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AAapsCy.img?h=0&w=720&m=6&q=60&u=t&o=f&l=f&x=1291&y=825)
People bet on their lives all the time against what things cost. For example, do they buy a more expensive car with better safety features? Or do they keep driving that old clunker? Do they spend extra money to sprinlerize their house that puts out fires? Or do they just settle on the less expensive and less safe smoke detector method? Do you buy more expensive cameras with two memory card slots or one? There's no end what you can spend on safety and backup.. Isn't that the salesman';s gimmick to get you to buy by questioning what kind of father or mother are you if you don't? We always balance out costs against safety.
It's just amazing that the Senate voted 96-0 without any debate on a spending package of $6 trillion dollars. We're setting ourselves up to a situation that we're going to suffer for many years to come as inflation and a weak economy will plague us because of it. We've gone overboard with that package and they're planning another one in a few months, especially because of the upcoming election. I remember stagflation back in the 1970's and early 1980's. $100 in 1970 was worth $45 in spending power on 1982. Imagine an inflation rate that knocks 55% of the purchasing power of your money, that things go up that much? With what the government spends and the Fed prints will make that period like a party. Now, I'm 75, so I've lived most of my life, (I hope God isn't listening). But I feel bad for younger people, and I have a daughter as well, because they're going to face hard times after the virus is over because of our profligate ways. So I ask God to be kind to us if we act with fear and greed in damaging ways.
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However, such articles always seen to mention just Italy, which seems to imply that Italians, especially the elderly, are very unhealthy.
A quick check on Wolfram Alpha shows me that , in Italy v USA, life expectancy is 82.4 v 80.1, and median age is 45.9 v 37.6 - both in favour of the Italians, which seems to dent the thrust of your argument. It's also noticeable that this differential has been steadingly increasing over the last 40 years (see graphic)
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life expectancy, yes, the US has been declining for many years.
Italy has half of its population that is 8 years older than the US. That seems to be part of the increased mortality.
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In these trying times, I am so glad we have a president who is devoting all his energy and intelligence to solving the problem.
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Today's stats from Serbia, FWIW:
From top to bottom, left to right:
Total number, dead, recovered, active cases, tested. Serbia's population is about 7-8 million.
The second image is a makeshift hospital for milder cases in a fairground facility.
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In these trying times, I am so glad we have a president who is devoting all his energy and intelligence to solving the problem.
You have a problem with someone using a sport to rest their mind and body in times of stress?
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What I said that if this thing turns out to be a lot less the common flu, we have to think in terms of those comparable numbers.
Do you believe that if there were still a chance that this wasn't much more serious than a regular flu that all the people in the world who know about these things would be reacting the way they are?
Why would they do that?
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In these trying times, I am so glad we have a president who is devoting all his energy and intelligence to solving the problem.
Trump has more energy and gets more done and works hardly than most presidents I've seen. He doesn;t stop. Are you kidding about the golf? So he takes a break to relax. Obama played golf all the time too. That's just a cheap shot because you can't criticize how hard he's working on the Covid problem. Frankly, Democrats would prefer he play more golf and stop appearing at his news conferences that shows him on top of his game for getting things done and for effective management. Does anyone think that sleepy Joe could do it better?
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Today's stats from Serbia, FWIW:
From top to bottom, left to right:
Total number, dead, recovered, active cases, tested. Serbia's population is about 7-8 million.
The second image is a makeshift hospital for milder cases in a fairground facility.
Does it matter there are no shields between the three beds in each room? I suppose if all the patients have Covid, it doesn;t matter. But I'm not an expert on it. Can't pneumonia spread for example?
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Do you believe that if there were still a chance that this wasn't much more serious than a regular flu that all the people in the world who know about these things would be reacting the way they are?
Why would they do that?
Herd mentality? We often do things because others are doing them.
I'm not saying it's wrong. We don't know enough about it. But we may find out later that we overreacted. That it would have burned out like the flu with no more deaths than the regular flu. We don't shut down societies with the flu even though 500,000 people in the world died from it last year. If Covid comes back regularly like the flu, are we going to shut down the world every year? I don't have answer to these questions. I just presenting the questions and the problems are actions create.
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(https://www.consulting.com/website/assets/img/herd_mentality_slide_1.jpg)
Herd mentality
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Herd mentality? We often do things because others are doing them.
Utter nonsense.
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I don't believe that's accurate. I suspect it's ' 99% of deaths had pre-existing medical conditions ' which is entirely different from saying that it was related to an existing medical condition.
And I most definitely question the 99% number. Knowing your prediliction for accuracy, 'm guessing that that was figurative rather than literal.
I'm not sure it is entirely different. My understanding is a pre-existing condition is a condition that began in the past but might continue into the present, although usually under some degree of control through medication. Such conditions could be 'High Blood Pressure', 'Diabetes', and 'Heart Disease'. There tends not to be a complete cure for such conditions. If a pre-existing condition were completely cured it would be called a pre-existed condition, wouldn't it?
From the following article: https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/global-covid-19-case-fatality-rates/
"Report from the Italian National Institute of Health: analysed 355 fatalities and found only three patients (0.8%) had no prior medical conditions. See Table 1 in the paper; (99% who died had one pre-existing health condition):
49% had three or more health conditions,
26% had two other ‘pathologies’,
25% had one.
The most common problems in the 355 who died were: 76% high blood pressure; 36% diabetes, and 33% ischemic heart disease."
Of course, the problem here is that only 355 fatalities have been analysed.
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A good article on herd mentality and group consensus.
https://www.consulting.com/herd-mentality
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Day three of our lockdown. I don’t know what to think actually. Is this corona virus a real thing at the level we are being told or not? I don’t know what to think. But two things are real and they will and are having real consequences that are not trivial.
1 the economic devastation
2 the panic.
Even without a virus that is enough to have to deal with.
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I'm not sure it is entirely different. My understanding is a pre-existing condition is a condition that began in the past but might continue into the present, although usually under some degree of control through medication. Such conditions could be 'High Blood Pressure', 'Diabetes', and 'Heart Disease'. There tends not to be a complete cure for such conditions. If a pre-existing condition were completely cured it would be called a pre-existed condition, wouldn't it?
From the following article: https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/global-covid-19-case-fatality-rates/
"Report from the Italian National Institute of Health: analysed 355 fatalities and found only three patients (0.8%) had no prior medical conditions. See Table 1 in the paper; (99% who died had one pre-existing health condition):
49% had three or more health conditions,
26% had two other ‘pathologies’,
25% had one.
The most common problems in the 355 who died were: 76% high blood pressure; 36% diabetes, and 33% ischemic heart disease."
Of course, the problem here is that only 355 fatalities have been analysed.
Ray, you're lucky you have no severe medical conditions at 77. I'm 75 and have diabetes, high blood pressure, triple bypass, sleep apnea, slight emphysema and take pills for most of these things. I live in a 55+ community and most of my friends are in their 70's and 80's. . People die around here all the time under normal conditions. I stopped reading the community news letter as I really don;t want to know - It's very depressing. When the EMS emergency vehicles enter our community they shut off their sirens so not to scare everyone. It's that frequent. You see the vehicle going down the street and you wonder which of your friends bit the bullet. In any case, my friends suffer from all kinds of stuff which is preexisting but really existing conditions that they live with. So we're all particularly at risk with this disease that could put us over the top and kill us.
I don;t think anyone in my community died from this disease. But i don;t know for sure because the person who handles the newsletter stopped emailing them. I gotta check on how he's doing.
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A good article on herd mentality and group consensus.
https://www.consulting.com/herd-mentality
other good examples - selling stocks at distressed prices, and buying toilet paper at raised prices
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other good examples - selling stocks at distressed prices, and buying toilet paper at raised prices
Buying stocks at inflated prices. :) What a mess. God's testing us.
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I'm not sure it is entirely different. My understanding is a pre-existing condition is a condition that began in the past but might continue into the present, although usually under some degree of control through medication.
[...]
Of course, the problem here is that only 355 fatalities have been analysed.
I think it is considered to be 'understood', in this type of generalisation, that an underlying medical condition is one that requires medicine which weakens the immune system, or is of a nature where the underlying 'structural weakness' is chronic.
*/ heart disease, lung disease, diabetes, cancer, cerebrovascular disease, renal disease, liver disease or
high blood pressure, any disease treated by monoclonal anti-tnf
*/ have a weak immune system (immunosuppressed)
*/ have a medical condition that can affect your breathing
*/ anyone over the age of 60 ?
355 fatalities out of >10,000 deaths ?
I don't think it's wildly off the mark, but most of the UK deaths, for example, are of people with pre-existing medical conditions.
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Herd mentality?
What if the herd is heading in the correct direction?
Popular media likes to make heroes of some people who zig this way when others are going that way. It's a compelling story, makes for good movies. It can be a romantic idea. Noboby makes movies about the other 99,000 who went against the grain but made the wrong choice. It's not going against the herd that's important, it's going against the herd when the herd is wrong.
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You have a problem with someone using a sport to rest their mind and body in times of stress?
With a president, yes; he should be keeping his mind on the existential game, not any gutta-percha bubble in white... If his front line medical teams can cope with those long shifts, surely he can too. In times of war, and this is the biggest war right inside your parlour ever, leaders sleep in snatches in their HQs, rarely venturing beyond. If he can't hack it, he should move sideways and let in someone who can. That does not imply another political party: they appear to be just as moribund, if not, realistically and literally, even more so.
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What if the herd is heading in the correct direction?
Popular media likes to make heroes of some people who zig this way when others are going that way. It's a compelling story, makes for good movies. It can be a romantic idea. Noboby makes movies about the other 99,000 who went against the grain but made the wrong choice. It's not going against the herd that's important, it's going against the herd when the herd is wrong.
If the herd is being lead by good leadership, then it's probably OK. It's when the herd is out of control that it becomes questionable. Do we have good leadership? Or is much of it based on personal desires. Unfortunately, at least in America, with the election coming up, everyone is jockeying for position. They all want to get re-elected or elected for new. That's the reason the vote in the senate was 96-0. The president, Biden, all the politicians are playing this thing politically for power and success. So everyone is promising all sorts of things not caring of the long term consequences. People are just as bad. Everyone is looking for something from the government so they don't have to face personal consequences. Let others pay for it. Where's my toilet paper? Where's my ventilator? Where's my unemployment insurance. Few want to chip in. At least not money
During WWII, Americans didn't get money from the government. They sent money to the government and bought War Bonds to support the effort. Now everyone looks to the government for a bailout and the government is broke. What a difference 80 years makes.
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With a president, yes; he should be keeping his mind on the existential game, not any gutta-percha bubble in white... If his front line medical teams can cope with those long shifts, surely he can too. In times of war, and this is the biggest war right inside your parlour ever, leaders sleep in snatches in their HQs, rarely venturing beyond. If he can't hack it, he should move sideways and let in someone who can. That does not imply another political party: they appear to be just as moribund, if not, realistically and literally, even more so.
Your Prime Minister Churchill's frequent scotch and soda didn't affect England's war effort I don;t believe. It probably made him more effective when he worked. Same with Trump, who doesn't drink at all, or anyone else. To argue Trump doesn;t work hard, well, you're really not watching how hard he does work all the time. The guy never stops. He's at it 24 hours a day. Even when he plays golf, he's with other politicians or foreign leaders. SO he's doing business even when he's getting some down time. Your petty cheap shots are really tiring.
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Alan G. What do you think about this drug? Is it effective in treating Covid?
https://www.polygraph.info/a/covid-19-china-turkey-fact-check/30513523.html
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Utter nonsense.
Those are sheep, not cows...
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With a president, yes; he should be keeping his mind on the existential game, not any gutta-percha bubble in white... If his front line medical teams can cope with those long shifts, surely he can too. In times of war, and this is the biggest war right inside your parlour ever, leaders sleep in snatches in their HQs, rarely venturing beyond. If he can't hack it, he should move sideways and let in someone who can. That does not imply another political party: they appear to be just as moribund, if not, realistically and literally, even more so.
How do you know his mind is not on the existential game while he is on the course? Perhaps he does his best thinking when on the links? You can't judge if you don't know. Its been said Trump only sleeps 4 hours a day and we know from past experience he can run rings around most people for sheer staying power.
I would venture Trump is running on just a few hours a sleep a night right now, and is more in you existential game that anyone imagines.
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I think it is considered to be 'understood', in this type of generalisation, that an underlying medical condition is one that requires medicine which weakens the immune system, or is of a nature where the underlying 'structural weakness' is chronic...
(Cross posting from another thread)
Italian stats:
The data set is from 6,000 deaths. Anecdotally, overweight men are the majority of patients and the data confirm it.
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I don't get why people would look at Trump for leadership in this. Trump does not care. he never has, he has never really pretended that he does. In this situation it has been very clear from the beginning that he does not care about the health of the American people but very much about the markets. Everything he has said and done clearly follows that line. The denials, the attempts to play down the situation....he still does not care how many people die because he will have a bed, care and toilet paper. So will his donors. That is a sad reality. Rich, white 1% will survive this. The do not care about the rest, the do care about how much money they will have when it is over and how they can turn it into more profit and how they can spin it to win the next term. The 2T package is perfect proof, without going into detail, it is all available....billions for companies that can get loans from banks anyway, millions for millions of actual people who cant pay for rent, food, healthcare and who are trying to home school their kids right now.
This is not about if Trump is stupid or not, it does not matter, he is smart enough to con enough influential people into keeping him in power and to tell enough stupid people what they want to hear. Is he a racist? who cares....he uses racism like it has been used for centuries in right wing politics and people still eat it up. He uses the bible when he needs it and people eat it up.
Golf: how can anyone defend Trump on his record when it comes to playing golf? He has attacked anyone and everyone for playing a minute of golf but plays exponentially more golf then anyone he attacked for it....and makes money off it by ripping off the government with his resort bills....and educated people defend this behavior? That has to be because in the end Trump helps them do what they want....
None of it is for the American people or the greater good....it is the worst kind of short term thinking, catch phrases to string people along.
There is no plan. Unless anyone counts inequality as a long term target.
Trump will not save anyone but himself and his donors, which is all he and they think about. And he and they have never really tried to hide that or lied about that. That is the one record he is very consistent with.
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I don't get why people would look at Trump for leadership in this. Trump does not care. he never has, he has never really pretended that he does. In this situation it has been very clear from the beginning that he does not care about the health of the American people but very much about the markets. Everything he has said and done clearly follows that line. The denials, the attempts to play down the situation....he still does not care how many people die because he will have a bed, care and toilet paper. So will his donors. That is a sad reality. Rich, white 1% will survive this. The do not care about the rest, the do care about how much money they will have when it is over and how they can turn it into more profit and how they can spin it to win the next term. The 2T package is perfect proof, without going into detail, it is all available....billions for companies that can get loans from banks anyway, millions for millions of actual people who cant pay for rent, food, healthcare and who are trying to home school their kids right now.
This is not about if Trump is stupid or not, it does not matter, he is smart enough to con enough influential people into keeping him in power and to tell enough stupid people what they want to hear. Is he a racist? who cares....he uses racism like it has been used for centuries in right wing politics and people still eat it up. He uses the bible when he needs it and people eat it up.
Golf: how can anyone defend Trump on his record when it comes to playing golf? He has attacked anyone and everyone for playing a minute of golf but plays exponentially more golf then anyone he attacked for it....and makes money off it by ripping off the government with his resort bills....and educated people defend this behavior? That has to be because in the end Trump helps them do what they want....
None of it is for the American people or the greater good....it is the worst kind of short term thinking, catch phrases to string people along.
There is no plan. Unless anyone counts inequality as a long term target.
Trump will not save anyone but himself and his donors, which is all he and they think about. And he and they have never really tried to hide that or lied about that. That is the one record he is very consistent with.
Just wow. Your TDS is very strong today.
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Oh, grow up! (@ pschefz)
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I don't get why people would look at Trump for leadership in this. Trump does not care. he never has, he has never really pretended that he does. In this situation it has been very clear from the beginning that he does not care about the health of the American people but very much about the markets.
It's more about his reelection ...
With the economy tanking, there was little credit to claim.
What happened to a better Healthcare plan to replace the Affordable Care Act?
The Pandemic Response capability of the CDC was destroyed.
Oh, wait, this isn't about Trump, even if he thinks it is. This is supposed to be about putting together a plan to help the states that cannot handle such a crisis that transcends the state borders. This is not about states having to bid the highest price to get stockpiled assistance. This is about helping people to help people, organized by experts who actually know what they're doing.
This is about saving lives and avoid a horrible suffocation death for thousands upon thousands!
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Your Prime Minister Churchill's frequent scotch and soda didn't affect England's war effort I don;t believe. It probably made him more effective when he worked. Same with Trump, who doesn't drink at all, or anyone else. To argue Trump doesn;t work hard, well, you're really not watching how hard he does work all the time. The guy never stops. He's at it 24 hours a day. Even when he plays golf, he's with other politicians or foreign leaders. SO he's doing business even when he's getting some down time. Your petty cheap shots are really tiring.
If he used his tweet time to play golf instead, nobody would complain.
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How do you know his mind is not on the existential game while he is on the course? Perhaps he does his best thinking when on the links? You can't judge if you don't know. Its been said Trump only sleeps 4 hours a day and we know from past experience he can run rings around most people for sheer staying power.
I would venture Trump is running on just a few hours a sleep a night right now, and is more in you existential game that anyone imagines.
That would explain some of his interviews and executive decisions.
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I've come across several articles which mention that 99% of those who die from Covid-19 have other serious medical conditions. This implies that the Covid-19 virus might be just 'the last straw that broke the camel's back', and that those who are healthy, with no medical conditions such as diabetes or high blood pressure, are safe, and will experience relatively mild symptoms if they are exposed to the virus.
However, such articles always seen to mention just Italy, which seems to imply that Italians, especially the elderly, are very unhealthy. I'm wondering if this is a general principle that applies in all countries, that is, if you are healthy without any medical conditions, whatever your age, you will have an extremely low risk of dying from Covid-19 infection.
This article was written by Siddhartha Mukherjee, the author of "Emperor Of All Maladies", a brilliant book on cancer.
You might find it interesting...
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/04/06/how-does-the-coronavirus-behave-inside-a-patient#intcid=recommendations_default-popular_b45fb4bf-9e51-4ad5-9508-0e05a427e5d8_popular4-1
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How do you know his mind is not on the existential game while he is on the course? Perhaps he does his best thinking when on the links? You can't judge if you don't know. Its been said Trump only sleeps 4 hours a day and we know from past experience he can run rings around most people for sheer staying power.
I would venture Trump is running on just a few hours a sleep a night right now, and is more in you existential game that anyone imagines.
Does his best thinking on the links? Just like others do their best thinkin' when they've been drinkin'?
Four hours of sleep per night: highly possible. It would take him most of the night to find his way past "greatest" in order to formulate the next clause in his tweets! The only existential game I believe he knows is the one surrounding the Trump fortunes.
I can't judge if I don't know; but you can speculate on the same basis?
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(Cross posting from another thread)
Italian stats:
The data set is from 6,000 deaths. Anecdotally, overweight men are the majority of patients and the data confirm it.
The top chart shows men dying a lot more than women. Figures. :)
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It's more about his reelection ...
With the economy tanking, there was little credit to claim.
What happened to a better Healthcare plan to replace the Affordable Care Act?
The Pandemic Response capability of the CDC was destroyed.
Oh, wait, this isn't about Trump, even if he thinks it is. This is supposed to be about putting together a plan to help the states that cannot handle such a crisis that transcends the state borders. This is not about states having to bid the highest price to get stockpiled assistance. This is about helping people to help people, organized by experts who actually know what they're doing.
This is about saving lives and avoid a horrible suffocation death for thousands upon thousands!
But there are many people, young people with families, who are also concerned about where their next meal is coming from. Sure they're concerned about the virus for themselves and their parents if they are alive. But earning a living to feed your family is also important. PAying doctor bills, rent mortgage, college costs, food, clothes, a roof over their heads, all costs money that you have to work for. This is not an either/or situation.
I don;t know your situation. Maybe you're in better shape than most. But there are millions of people who don't have savings or are getting wiped out losing their jobs and live week to week through no fault of their own. Its unfair to condemn them and ask them to sacrifice their families well being. These people are not evil nor are those politicians who are working to protect the economy. No, it isn't about Trump. Trump is just reflecting what these people are concerned about. Sure it's about re-election also. That's why Trump is concerned. He's reflecting the voter's concern so he can get re-elected. Cuomo is doing the same thing as governor of NY. He's hoping the democrat party will replace Biden with him as the presidential candidate. That's how things work in a democracy. If you want a government that operates on its own without worrying about re-election and what the people think, then go to North Korea or Cuba or Iran.
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If he used his tweet time to play golf instead, nobody would complain.
If we had an honest press that would report what he does in a fair way, he wouldn't have to tweet.
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This article was written by Siddhartha Mukherjee, the author of "Emperor Of All Maladies", a brilliant book on cancer.
You might find it interesting...
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/04/06/how-does-the-coronavirus-behave-inside-a-patient#intcid=recommendations_default-popular_b45fb4bf-9e51-4ad5-9508-0e05a427e5d8_popular4-1
why would I want to read a book on cancer? What does that book have to do with the thread? It would be helpful if you gave a synopsis.
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But there are millions of people who don't have savings or are getting wiped out losing their jobs and live week to week through no fault of their own. Its unfair to condemn them and ask them to sacrifice their families well being. These people are not evil nor are those politicians who are working to protect the economy. No, it isn't about Trump. Trump is just reflecting what these people are concerned about. Sure it's about re-election also. That's why Trump is concerned. He's reflecting the voter's concern so he can get re-elected. Cuomo is doing the same thing as governor of NY. He's hoping the democrat party will replace Biden with him as the presidential candidate. That's how things work in a democracy. If you want a government that operates on its own without worrying about re-election and what the people think, then go to North Korea or Cuba or Iran.
How can the democrat party replace Biden with Cuomo? In the 2020 election?
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How can the democrat party replace Biden with Cuomo? In the 2020 election?
Easy, Biden wins a majority of delegates. Powers to be convince him to release his delegates at the convention with the 'order' to vote for Cuomo. Sanders and his delegates would go apoplectic if that happens but probably are powerless to stop it.
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How can the democrat party replace Biden with Cuomo? In the 2020 election?
Obama will talk to Biden and tell him he's not well enough to be president and for the good of the country and party, to not run based on that let's say his doctors told him he's not well enough. That way he could pull out gracefully. And the Dems will select someone else.
The other option is that Cuomo's making a play for VP under Biden. Voters will be less concerned that Biden can't handle the job if a dynamic guy like Cuomo backstops him as VP. Then Cuomo can run in 2024 for president when Biden's retires then. I don't think this is over yet. There's going to be a lot of behind the scenes stuff going on. The Democrat party doesn;t think Biden is up to it.
I was watching CNN interview of Biden. It was a town hall type meeting but everything was remote, not sure if the questions were even live. It didn't look like iot. But each answer Biden gave was obviously perfectly prepared for the questions. CNN I'm sure told him in advance so he wouldn't screw it up. The media is protecting him. So if he wins, we'll windup with a zombie for president. Just what we need in the middle of a health and economic crisis. But if the public figures him out, that he's not able to do the job, they'll vote for Trump, even if they don't, like Trump. He may be an SOB, But he's an effective SOB.
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Easy, Biden wins a majority of delegates. Powers to be convince him to release his delegates at the convention with the 'order' to vote for Cuomo. Sanders and his delegates would go apoplectic if that happens but probably are powerless to stop it.
Good point. Whatever they do, they'll have to keep Sander's supporters on-board to vote in November.
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It's more about his reelection ...
With the economy tanking, there was little credit to claim.
What happened to a better Healthcare plan to replace the Affordable Care Act?
The Pandemic Response capability of the CDC was destroyed.
Oh, wait, this isn't about Trump, even if he thinks it is. This is supposed to be about putting together a plan to help the states that cannot handle such a crisis that transcends the state borders. This is not about states having to bid the highest price to get stockpiled assistance. This is about helping people to help people, organized by experts who actually know what they're doing.
This is about saving lives and avoid a horrible suffocation death for thousands upon thousands!
That is pure bs and it has been debunked here many times over. But tell a lie long enough and hope it becomes the truth.
When it comes to how the states handle this , the President has very little legal say in the matter. He can try and remove regulations that get in the way of things like testing..he did. He can declare an Narional Emergency and make money available to the states...he did. He can push companies to make things that are needed...he did. He can send states materials, equipment from the Federal Stockpile...he did. He can use FEMA to provice assistance...he did. He can offer guidence via his office or other Federal departments..he did. He can close borders..if the liberal courts let hem....he did. He cna propose legislation to help people stay afloat financially...he did. he can offer up military expertise and equipment to help states cope...he did.
What can he NOT do. Close a State or even the entire country. Tell a State how to conduct their business as it relates to the virus. He has very little power to control this on a national basis. Unless you want to mke him King.
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That would explain some of his interviews and executive decisions.
I read he has been like this for a very long time. I for one have few problems wiht his decisions and interviews. YMMV
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It's more about his reelection ...
With the economy tanking, there was little credit to claim.
What happened to a better Healthcare plan to replace the Affordable Care Act?
The Pandemic Response capability of the CDC was destroyed.
Oh, wait, this isn't about Trump, even if he thinks it is. This is supposed to be about putting together a plan to help the states that cannot handle such a crisis that transcends the state borders. This is not about states having to bid the highest price to get stockpiled assistance. This is about helping people to help people, organized by experts who actually know what they're doing.
This is about saving lives and avoid a horrible suffocation death for thousands upon thousands!
none of it seems to matter....we have a guy who, even in this situation, keeps to completely ignore science, contradict his own panel of professionals, goes from calling a worldwide situation a hoax to everyday muttering incoherently about "people say" and "I have a hunch"....it's just the flu, go back to work, we will be open by easter...and his followers eat it up, while dying...
I have been watching the WWII documentary series on Netflix with my kids and even they can see the parallels in the relentless propaganda machine churning out alternate realities....about whatever goes in handy....mexicans, Chinese, democrats, homeless....its not about the truth, it is about repeating the same thing over and over until it turns into what is generally accepted....there is no point arguing, because arguing it actually assumes a certain baseline of facts and reality....
look at England: "we are doing things differently here"....now that Charles and Boris have it we can see that his was all about a realization from the top that they would not have been able to handle it properly...and Charles and Boris will be fine....others less so....but who cares about them....
I am honestly appalled by the level of racist and fearful stupidity on a forum that is supposedly dedicated to an art form...
in the end this will blow over, the most unfortunate and the old will suffer most, the system in place is being kept up more and more desperately by older and older white men and in basic belief system includes some kind of karma idea...these guys kids already dont like them...the ones who brainwashed their kids into following the narrow path will go to a special kind of hell , the one where the grandparents are responsible for the grandkids hating their own parents....
short term thinking is one thing, trump managed to bring it down to twitter time span thinking, which really is no way of running anything....
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Easy, Biden wins a majority of delegates. Powers to be convince him to release his delegates at the convention with the 'order' to vote for Cuomo. Sanders and his delegates would go apoplectic if that happens but probably are powerless to stop it.
a true democracy!
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Does his best thinking on the links? Just like others do their best thinkin' when they've been drinkin'?
Four hours of sleep per night: highly possible. It would take him most of the night to find his way past "greatest" in order to formulate the next clause in his tweets! The only existential game I believe he knows is the one surrounding the Trump fortunes.
I can't judge if I don't know; but you can speculate on the same basis?
Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't but since neither you or I are there we don't get to know. Welcome to reality.
As to his fortunes. Being President has cost him buckets of his personal fortune. I will specular he will be the only recent President to have less money when it leaves office than when he went in. To think this is about his fortune disregards the facts on the ground.
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Here is a proposed strategy for "re-starting" the US economy once the worst is over, https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/28/opinion/coronavirus-economy.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/28/opinion/coronavirus-economy.html). It is predicated on the worst being over, that is it would be risky to attempt to re-start things until you knew for certain that the worst was over to get buy-in from all parties.
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none of it seems to matter....we have a guy who, even in this situation, keeps to completely ignore science, contradict his own panel of professionals, goes from calling a worldwide situation a hoax to everyday muttering incoherently about "people say" and "I have a hunch"....it's just the flu, go back to work, we will be open by easter...and his followers eat it up, while dying...
I have been watching the WWII documentary series on Netflix with my kids and even they can see the parallels in the relentless propaganda machine churning out alternate realities....about whatever goes in handy....mexicans, Chinese, democrats, homeless....its not about the truth, it is about repeating the same thing over and over until it turns into what is generally accepted....there is no point arguing, because arguing it actually assumes a certain baseline of facts and reality....
look at England: "we are doing things differently here"....now that Charles and Boris have it we can see that his was all about a realization from the top that they would not have been able to handle it properly...and Charles and Boris will be fine....others less so....but who cares about them....
I am honestly appalled by the level of racist and fearful stupidity on a forum that is supposedly dedicated to an art form...
in the end this will blow over, the most unfortunate and the old will suffer most, the system in place is being kept up more and more desperately by older and older white men and in basic belief system includes some kind of karma idea...these guys kids already dont like them...the ones who brainwashed their kids into following the narrow path will go to a special kind of hell , the one where the grandparents are responsible for the grandkids hating their own parents....
short term thinking is one thing, trump managed to bring it down to twitter time span thinking, which really is no way of running anything....
Jeeze, how much fake news can you cram into a single post...BUCKETS it seems. You need to back away from the keyboard. Maybe watch a movie....
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Here is a proposed strategy for "re-starting" the US economy once the worst is over, https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/28/opinion/coronavirus-economy.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/28/opinion/coronavirus-economy.html). It is predicated on the worst being over, that is it would be risky to attempt to re-start things until you knew for certain that the worst was over to get buy-in from all parties.
Ezekiel J. Emanuel. Mr Death Panel himself. Excellent. [/sarcasm]
This is a hoot.
Stop the virus. A nationwide shelter-in-place or quarantine should take place for the next eight to 10 weeks.
Who does this? The CDC has limited powers but the STATES have the power.
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a true democracy!
Nomination processes are not democratic. Primaries are a rather new thing. The selection process for most of our 235 year history has been mainly done in smoky backrooms where a lot of "you scratch my back and I'll scratch your back " deals were made.
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As to his fortunes. Being President has cost him buckets of his personal fortune. I will specular he will be the only recent President to have less money when it leaves office than when he went in. To think this is about his fortune disregards the facts on the ground.
I don’t know. Don Jr. and Eric seem like a couple of stable geniuses who can keep the Trump Organization humming along. Besides, renting out hotel rooms and collecting green fees isn’t exactly rocket science.
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I don’t know. Don Jr. and Eric seem like a couple of stable geniuses who can keep the Trump Organization humming along.
I'm sure they are doing their job. So whats your point? Do you even have one?
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Here is a proposed strategy for "re-starting" the US economy once the worst is over, https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/28/opinion/coronavirus-economy.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/28/opinion/coronavirus-economy.html). It is predicated on the worst being over, that is it would be risky to attempt to re-start things until you knew for certain that the worst was over to get buy-in from all parties.
If the guy is right, and you can't stop the infection, something I'm concerned about, then the only thing that will protect us is that it dies out on its own. The isolation may not be so much to allow hospitals to function by not getting overloaded and spreading out the victim count, but to give the disease a chance to die in the spring, something no one has any control over.
If we aren't stopping it, and it doesn;t stop on its own, people like me at 75, are in for a hard time.
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a true democracy!
Democracy is a myth. What you get are sophisticated but brutal games that perpetuate the façade of democratic decisions. Voting is not the guarantee: you can usefully only vote for the parties that manage to latch onto power through unions or organised wealth. For the rest, those cracks through which to fall are immense. It's why there are mostly two-party situations that occupy the thrones of societies such as Britain and the States: the minor leagues never get the critical mass. And where they do, the results are an even worse mess: think Italy and Spain, for starters; they change internal alliances like underwear.
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I want to get people ready for what's coming. If the absolute worst is averted, the curve is flattened, we delay spread, protect the most vulnerable, etc., we should all be ready for the onslaught of opinion that will come out saying, "See it wasn't so bad, it was all a hoax after all, it was just like a regular flu." This is coming. The fact that specific efforts were made to avoid the worst outcome will not be mentioned. It's the millennium bug hoax all over again. The fact that the worst didn't occur will be held up as proof that there was no problem to begin with. There's nothing to be done to prevent this onslaught, it will happen, just don't be surprised by it. :)
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Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't but since neither you or I are there we don't get to know. Welcome to reality.
As to his fortunes. Being President has cost him buckets of his personal fortune. I will specular he will be the only recent President to have less money when it leaves office than when he went in. To think this is about his fortune disregards the facts on the ground.
Wasn't he supposed to relinquish control of all his companies if he became president?
It's the perfect out for when he's out: he can blame the custodians; if he ends up richer, then it's thanks to his great, the greatest, foresight.
Fortune and ego are sides of the same coin. Both can be lethal for others: collateral damage.
To make matters worse, I have just noticed the iPad clock has shot forward an hour; that means that if I want to stay in time I have to lose some sleep, just like Trump. Sheesh.
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Here is an interesting background story on ventilator development and failure, https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/29/business/coronavirus-us-ventilator-shortage.html?referringSource=articleShare (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/29/business/coronavirus-us-ventilator-shortage.html?referringSource=articleShare). The USA outsourced the development of a new generation of ventilators, some corporate take-overs occurred, the project ended. I skimmed through the article, not sure what to make of it.
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why would I want to read a book on cancer? What does that book have to do with the thread? It would be helpful if you gave a synopsis.
Oh Alan! The mention of the book was to establish the doctors credentials... Read the bloody link to find out about the virus!
Then again, don't bother...!
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Trumps guidelines "15 Days to Stop the Spread" are going to be up on Tuesday. Will he amend them or extend them or both? The only thing I have read is that he is going to do something on April 12, possibly rank each county in America based on risk and selectively open the economy back up. Did I miss the plan for the intervening time period?
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I want to get people ready for what's coming. If the absolute worst is averted, the curve is flattened, we delay spread, protect the most vulnerable, etc., we should all be ready for the onslaught of opinion that will come out saying, "See it wasn't so bad, it was all a hoax after all, it was just like a regular flu." This is coming. The fact that specific efforts were made to avoid the worst outcome will not be mentioned. It's the millennium bug hoax all over again. The fact that the worst didn't occur will be held up as proof that there was no problem to begin with. There's nothing to be done to prevent this onslaught, it will happen, just don't be surprised by it. :)
No good deed goes unpunished.
In any case, every leader pushed for shutdown. However, Trump will fall back on his original statement that it's a "hoax". Biden will say he was napping when the whole thing happened and missed it. Sanders will say, "I wuz robbed. The process is fixed" Hillary will say she should have been president because she got more votes. Every congressman will say they voted against the stupid bailout as it was a voice vote. (I think). Senators serve for six years. Everyone will forget the whole thing by the time they're up for re-election. Only the families of the dead and workers who are unemployed will suffer.
On the other hand, wouldn't it be great if you're right and things just end under the best conditions?
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Oh Alan! The mention of the book was to establish the doctors credentials... Read the bloody link to find out about the virus!
Then again, don't bother...!
The moderator here requires an explanation of what a link is about. Posting blind links asking people to read them is not allowed. It's wasting everyone's time.
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The moderator here requires an explanation of what a link is about. Posting blind links asking people to read them is not allowed. It's wasting everyone's time.
God knows we don't have enough time on our hands to read stuff on the internet.
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Wasn't he supposed to relinquish control of all his companies if he became president?
It's the perfect out for when he's out: he can blame the custodians; if he ends up richer, then it's thanks to his great, the greatest, foresight.
Fortune and ego are sides of the same coin. Both can be lethal for others: collateral damage.
To make matters worse, I have just noticed the iPad clock has shot forward an hour; that means that if I want to stay in time I have to lose some sleep, just like Trump. Sheesh.
There is no law that says he can't keep his business. He put his sons in charge while he is in office.
If his business grows good for him. If it does not so be it. Trump pretty much had it made before he ran for office. He takes no wages for being President and donates it all instead.
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Trumps guidelines "15 Days to Stop the Spread" are going to be up on Tuesday. Will he amend them or extend them or both? The only thing I have read is that he is going to do something on April 12, possibly rank each county in America based on risk and selectively open the economy back up. Did I miss the plan for the intervening time period?
Thats the plan for now with guidance from the task force. We will have to wait and see what they say.
Added in Edit:
Trump just said the social distancing guidelines will remain in place until the end of April. We now have to see what the states do.
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God knows we don't have enough time on our hands to read stuff on the internet.
:)
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Fauci predicts 200,000 American deaths.
https://www.geo.tv/latest/279844-brace-for-impact-us-infectious-diseases-expert-warns-covid-19-could-kill-200000-people
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There is no law that says he can't keep his business. He put his sons in charge while he is in office.
If his business grows good for him. If it does not so be it. Trump pretty much had it made before he ran for office. He takes no wages for being President and donates it all instead.
Who said he couldn't keep it?
Wages for being pressie? Man, it's the greatest feather in any cap: worth a zillion times its weight in gold. Check out our own bunch. They know that too. The wages are hardly worth a mention.
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Who said he couldn't keep it?
Wages for being pressie? Man, it's the greatest feather in any cap: worth a zillion times its weight in gold. Check out our own bunch. They know that too. The wages are hardly worth a mention.
Obama sure took the wages and ended up being a millionaire.
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Guys, this thread is not about Trump, and in particular not about his businesses, salary, or who he cares or not about. He should only be mentioned in his relation to the pandemic.
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God knows we don't have enough time on our hands to read stuff on the internet.
AK's point really is legitimate.
Between gardening, cheese making, cooking, and retuning my business operations to shoot exteriors and product at my house, lord knows I dont have the time.
Not to mention, it would be good to know if the link is actually viable and not some left or right wing crazy piece. Knowing the poster though, it probably was.
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AK's point really is legitimate.
Between gardening, cheese making, cooking, and retuning my business operations to shoot exteriors and product at my house, lord knows I dont have the time.
Not to mention, it would be good to know if the link is actually viable and not some left or right wing crazy piece. Knowing the poster though, it probably was.
My feeling is that if a link is posted without a summary, and you are unable to determine the topic by reference to the text of the link, you can elect not to click on it all by yourself. Nobody is forcing you to click on links and read them.
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AK's point really is legitimate.
Between gardening, cheese making, cooking, and retuning my business operations to shoot exteriors and product at my house, lord knows I dont have the time.
Not to mention, it would be good to know if the link is actually viable and not some left or right wing crazy piece. Knowing the poster though, it probably was.
Well if I have to watch a video, I'd rather watch Batman. :)
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My feeling is that if a link is posted without a summary, and you are unable to determine the topic by reference to the text of the link, you can elect not to click on it all by yourself.
Maybe the moderator will explain the rule and why it's imposed?
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Maybe the moderator will explain the rule and why it's imposed?
He did. Almost two years ago (https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=125586.0).
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He did. Almost two years ago (https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=125586.0).
I am familiar with the rule. I am not sure who died and left Alan in charge of enforcing it.
Summary: This is a story about how the US is buying 80 tons of personal protective supplies and other medical equipment from China and other Asian countries and air lifting it over here. It seems these countries have plenty to sell. The article is silent as to whether these items are subject to the tariffs. Please note that this story appears in the New York Times and therefore may or may not be true depending on your political persuasion.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/29/business/economy/coronavirus-china-supplies.html
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Instead of just showing a link with the implied message - "Trust me and read it", it would be a good practice to show always the three pieces of information Jeremy requested:
Poster's brief comment or position
Excerpt or summary of the quoted / external link
URL link(s)
Optionally, insertion of a suitable picture (typically from the quoted link) can be beneficial
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I am familiar with the rule. I am not sure who died and left Alan in charge of enforcing it.
Summary: This is a story about how the US is buying 80 tons of personal protective supplies and other medical equipment from China and other Asian countries and air lifting it over here. It seems these countries have plenty to sell. The article is silent as to whether these items are subject to the tariffs. Please note that this story appears in the New York Times and therefore may or may not be true depending on your political persuasion.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/29/business/economy/coronavirus-china-supplies.html
I wasn't trying to enforce anything. I asked for more information on the link as the poster seemed to indicate it was about cancer research. I wanted a synopsis so I could determine whether I should spend my time going to the link and reading the material. I always do that when I provide links in my posts as Les mentioned in his post. I think it's a courtesy to do that rather than wasting people's time who may not be interested in reading or viewing it if its a video.
Actually I went back and read the linked material. It was informative and about how investigations should be done regarding individual's response to the virus infection. It didn't give any specific answers about this disease. But laid out a kind of blueprint to what should be done by investigators based on passed infections like AIDS and smallpox. The synopsis I just provided would have been helpful if the original posted something like that. Then you, me and everyone else could decide whether to read it or not.
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Instead of just showing a link with the implied message - "Trust me and read it", it would be a good practice to show always the three pieces of information Jeremy requested:
Poster's brief comment or position
Excerpt or summary of the quoted / external link
URL link(s)
Optionally, insertion of a suitable picture (typically from the quoted link) can be beneficial
Reminds me of a blind date I once was convinced to go on. :)
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Reminds me of a blind date I once was convinced to go on. :)
I can relate to that.
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My feeling is that if a link is posted without a summary, and you are unable to determine the topic by reference to the text of the link, you can elect not to click on it all by yourself. Nobody is forcing you to click on links and read them.
Or maybe, any poster could realize this is not his/her house, and play by the rules.
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Yawn. Wake me up when it passes the usual 50-60K deaths from regular flu every year (in the States).
'If we have between 100,000 and 200,000 we’ve all together done a very good job.'
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'If we have between 100,000 and 200,000 we’ve all together done a very good job.'
Don’t be threatening, Cutie Pie.
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I just did my own analysis of what could be in store based on figures coming in by county throughout the US. Comparing percentage of deaths to cases, it varies significantly depending in which county. Assuming it spreads through the US everywhere and 40,000,000 are infected, anywheres from 200,000 to one million will die. Of course that's based on discovered cases. That's of course if this things continues spreading and there';s no antidote. The saving grace is if it dies out soon on it's own. My estimates would be a lot lower of the actual infected is much higher but just not realized by those doing the statistics.
Here the charts I used if you want to do your own analysis.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/29/coronavirus-heres-a-map-of-rural-counties-in-us-most-affected-by-pandemic.html
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My estimates would be higher though if more than 40 million are infected. (out of 330 million)
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I just did my own analysis of what could be in store based on figures coming in by county throughout the US. Comparing percentage of deaths to cases, it varies significantly depending in which county. Assuming it spreads through the US everywhere and 40,000,000 are infected, anywheres from 200,000 to one million will die. Of course that's based on discovered cases. That's of course if this things continues spreading and there';s no antidote. The saving grace is if it dies out soon on it's own. My estimates would be a lot lower of the actual infected is much higher but just not realized by those doing the statistics.
Here the charts I used if you want to do your own analysis.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/29/coronavirus-heres-a-map-of-rural-counties-in-us-most-affected-by-pandemic.html
These estimates are substantially higher than Slobodan's numbers.
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A good and concise (just over 2 minutes) interview with Bill Gates. He said that he expects the peak in USA by end of April, but it will take another month for the infections to come down to safe levels.
But it will require a nationwide lockdown, not just for certain states and counties. The current daily growth rate is 33%, meaning that if you have a certain county with just 100 cases, and if you don't do anything, it could quickly grow to 10,000. And that's an optimistic assessment.
https://www.cnn.com/videos/business/2020/03/27/bill-gates-coronavirus-town-hall-shutdown-april-peak-sot-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/stories-worth-watching/
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These estimates are substantially higher than Slobodan's numbers.
I think the experts realize that the spread will not stop until everyone is infected. It's like a walking dead movie. I think Gov Cuomo knew and let it slip out last week when he said between 40-80% of the Americans will get it. The whole lowering the curve is , I believe, an attempt to forestall more people getting it before the thing dies out on its own, they hope. It's not so much there aren;lt enough hospital beds. That's true. But the main issue is to slow down the infection timetable until this thing dies out. If it doesn't, it's going to be a disaster.
What I don;t understand looking at the charts on my last post, is why this thing in America is spreading but not elsewhere. I think it's BS that other countries have stopped it. I just don't see how that could be. Even if you grab the spreaders, there is always going to be one or two you missed and the spread will start again. We'll know if this is true once we hear of cases again in South Korea and Taiwan. I think they already have domestic cases in China but they're hiding them.
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A good and concise (just over 2 minutes) interview with Bill Gates. He said that he expects the peak in USA by end of April, but it will take another month for the infections to come down to safe levels.
But it will require a nationwide lockdown, not just for certain states and counties. The current daily growth rate is 33%, meaning that if you have a certain county with just 100 cases, and if you don't do anything, it could quickly grow to 10,000. And that's an optimistic assessment.
https://www.cnn.com/videos/business/2020/03/27/bill-gates-coronavirus-town-hall-shutdown-april-peak-sot-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/stories-worth-watching/
I saw his video. But I still don;t understand how you can stop the spread by flattening the curve if the disease does not stop soon on it's own. Are we to stay hidden forever? We have to come out at some time and that's when it will pickup again and continue. Only unless it burns out on it's own like the seasonal flu. What Gates is suggesting is a complete shutdown of the entire country. Trump wanted to set up no travel out of NY, CT and NJ and was opposed. He was trying to get a jump on what Gates is recommending but everyone was opposed to his plan. Of course, when it does happen they will continue to blame Trump even though he is the one who wants to take stronger measures. Our politics is really getting in the way of coherent strategies.
What Gates did not say is what is a complete shutdown. Does that mean nothing is going to happen? How are people going to eat and survive locked up in their homes. Just what is he recommending?
What's going on in Canada, Les? Do you have charts like the one I posted by province and locality?
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I just checked airfares from Newark Intl Airport in New Jersey to Miami, round trip: $47. (That's no error)
https://www.expedia.com/Flights-Search?flight-type=on&starDate=03%2F31%2F2020&endDate=04%2F07%2F2020&mode=search&trip=roundtrip&leg1=from%3ANewark%2C+NJ+%28EWR-Liberty+Intl.%29%2Cto%3AMiami+%28MIA-All+Airports%29%2Cdeparture%3A03%2F31%2F2020TANYT&leg2=from%3AMiami+%28MIA-All+Airports%29%2Cto%3ANewark%2C+NJ+%28EWR-Liberty+Intl.%29%2Cdeparture%3A04%2F07%2F2020TANYT&passengers=children%3A0%2Cadults%3A1%2Cseniors%3A0%2Cinfantinlap%3AY&fareCalendarPrice=57
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I just noticed that if you book a hotel with your flight, you get to fly free. I wonder if they'd throw in a ventilator?
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My New Jersey is second highest state in the country for cases although not the second for deaths. I guess because we're right next to NYC and so many Jerseyites work in NYC.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2020/mar/29/coronavirus-map-of-the-us-latest-cases-state-by-state
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What I don;t understand looking at the charts on my last post, is why this thing in America is spreading but not elsewhere. I think it's BS that other countries have stopped it. I just don't see how that could be. Even if you grab the spreaders, there is always going to be one or two you missed and the spread will start again. We'll know if this is true once we hear of cases again in South Korea and Taiwan. I think they already have domestic cases in China but they're hiding them.
Very probable that China, Russia and Iran are hiding their C19 numbers. I don't think that's the case with South Korea, Singapore and Taiwan.
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I saw his video. But I still don;t understand how you can stop the spread by flattening the curve if the disease does not stop soon on it's own. Are we to stay hidden forever? We have to come out at some time and that's when it will pickup again and continue. Only unless it burns out on it's own like the seasonal flu. What Gates is suggesting is a complete shutdown of the entire country. Trump wanted to set up no travel out of NY, CT and NJ and was opposed. He was trying to get a jump on what Gates is recommending but everyone was opposed to his plan. Of course, when it does happen they will continue to blame Trump even though he is the one who wants to take stronger measures. Our politics is really getting in the way of coherent strategies.
What Gates did not say is what is a complete shutdown. Does that mean nothing is going to happen? How are people going to eat and survive locked up in their homes. Just what is he recommending?
What's going on in Canada, Les? Do you have charts like the one I posted by province and locality?
Gates knows much more than Trump about the pandemics, infection rates, and required medical equipment. He doesn't tweet as much as Trump, but he thinks pragmatically and logically. I'm sure that was not the last word we heard from him on this subject.
Yes, in Canada we have the Covid-19 numbers broken down by province. The latest infection count is 6,320, and the three most populous provinces (Ontario, Quebec, British Columbia) report about 2/3 of all Canadian infections.
Here is a detailed report as of last Saturday:
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/a-provincial-breakdown-of-covid-19-in-canada-5576-cases-and-61-dead-as-of-saturday
Epidemiological summary of Covid-19 cases with several charts
https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/diseases/2019-novel-coronavirus-infection/health-professionals/epidemiological-summary-covid-19-cases.html
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Instead of just showing a link with the implied message - "Trust me and read it", it would be a good practice to show always the three pieces of information Jeremy requested:
Poster's brief comment or position
Excerpt or summary of the quoted / external link
URL link(s)
Optionally, insertion of a suitable picture (typically from the quoted link) can be beneficial
If anyone had bothered to read my post properly, the first thing they would have noticed is that it was a response (including the quote) to a point Ray raised.... the link I posted was not isolated, it was, I felt (and still do), relevant.
On a side-note: it was amusing to see the "maverick", "americans don't like rules" brigade jumping on that massive "breach of the rules"! ;D ;D ;D
As
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I just noticed that if you book a hotel with your flight, you get to fly free. I wonder if they'd throw in a ventilator?
yes, one ventilator per room (based on double occupancy)
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If anyone had bothered to read my post properly, the first thing they would have noticed is that it was a response (including the quote) to a point Ray raised.... the link I posted was not isolated, it was, I felt (and still do), relevant.
On a side-note: it was amusing to see the "maverick", "americans don't like rules" brigade jumping on that massive "breach of the rules"! ;D ;D ;D
It was not an attack, merely a friendly suggestion how to entice the readers to click on the links in a particular post.
In the last month, we have seen so many links, that it would be very difficult and time consuming to open and read all of them. Any help to help the dummies will be helpful.
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I just checked airfares from Newark Intl Airport in New Jersey to Miami, round trip: $47. (That's no error)...
And if memory serves me well, you’ll end up in a mandated 14-day self isolation in Florida. Or Rhode Island, if you drive there.
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It was not an attack, merely a friendly suggestion how to entice the readers to click on the links in a particular post.
In the last month, we have seen so many links, that it would be very difficult and time consuming to open and read all of them. Any help to help the dummies will be helpful.
Hi Les, my responses was not directed at you nor did I see it as an attack. I simply quoted you because your post was the last.... :)
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Hi Les, my responses was not directed at you nor did I see it as an attack. I simply quoted you because your post was the last.... :)
William, no offense taken. I just used the opportunity to elaborate on how the posts are written and read.
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Instead of just showing a link with the implied message - "Trust me and read it", it would be a good practice to show always the three pieces of information Jeremy requested:
Poster's brief comment or position
Excerpt or summary of the quoted / external link
URL link(s)
Optionally, insertion of a suitable picture (typically from the quoted link) can be beneficial
Les, in that case one might as well stop making links at all and just rewrite the entire matter thought to be of interest. And who has the patience or interest in doing so on a closed-circuit chat show as this has become? Better, up-to-date information comes from my tv set.
The fun here is watching the climate-change denying brotherhood latching on to the very same political branch of the Corona Phenomenon. Herd immunity? Herd mentality. Passes an otherwise pretty empty hour or so, this watching of the armchair experts reciting their catechisms. Of course, courtesy the digital age and editing equipment provided on LuLa, one of the foremost but also most unbearable such musicians no longer spoils the ammusement with his resounding trumpet blasts. The spiritual comfort of seeing five or six empty pews in a row! No need for a précis to know what I haven't missed!
I my own case, I base the opening or passing of links on the poster: some I always open and others never, knowing by their long-revealed colours just where their heads are at and my natural reaction to them.
;-)
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As to his fortunes. Being President has cost him buckets of his personal fortune. I will specular he will be the only recent President to have less money when it leaves office than when he went in. To think this is about his fortune disregards the facts on the ground.
Come on Craig - when immensely wealthy people want to make yet more money - they don't do it so they can buy more cars or enjoy a better quality wine. They do it for fame, power, glory etc. Being President must be the ultimate power-trip and I'm sure was well worth any amount of money Trump needed to spend on securing the role.......
Jim
EDIT - I do think though that it is not the time to be partisan regarding politics - let's deal with the real threat. In spite of some shortcomings, I'm glad that here in the UK politics have largely been absent from the commentary so far - that can come later.
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I've come across this on Facebook. I do not vouch for the veracity of the statements, but seem to offer an interesting angle on the stats.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/The-evidence-on-Covid-19-is-not-as-clear-as-we-think?fbclid=IwAR15hg0z3vZgSr0z_GyCbz-pYoxiypu0OSl2mxZI1A_EJrSkc86_WpTZGYE
"Dr John Lee
How deadly is the coronavirus? It’s still far from clear
There is room for different interpretations of the data"
The post on Facebook accompanying the link, coming from a pro-Trump black public figure Candace Owens (bold mine)
Important information for everyone to know about #coronavirus. Obesity is the number 1 killer in America. Right now, they are giving everyone who dies a Covid-19 lab test. If people die from heart disease, but were asymptomatic carriers of Covid-19, their deaths are counted toward the total. Same with other viruses an illnesses. I am an asthmatic. If I die from an asthma attack today, and it is determined that I have Covid-19 in my system at the time of death, my death counts as “complications from coronavirus”, even if I never had any symptoms. They are trying desperately to get the numbers they need to justify this pandemic response.
Below is an article that explains how they are manipulating deaths. I spent all day today trying to look up daily death rates for any other diseases. You can’t get it anywhere. They are reporting ONLY on coronavirus deaths. I suspect if we begin to demand the daily death toll numbers for heart disease, we will observe a deep decline. I am most interested in NYC overall deaths for this past month (Not just from Covid-19). If anyone knows where we can get this information, please let me know. They seem to be locking it down. If they can tell us how many people are dying from coronavirus daily— why can’t they tell us how many people are dying otherwise?
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Les, in that case one might as well stop making links at all and just rewrite the entire matter thought to be of interest. And who has the patience or interest in doing so on a closed-circuit chat show as this has become? Better, up-to-date information comes from my tv set.
The fun here is watching the climate-change denying brotherhood latching on to the very same political branch of the Corona Phenomenon. Herd immunity? Herd mentality. Passes an otherwise pretty empty hour or so, this watching of the armchair experts reciting their catechisms. Of course, courtesy the digital age and editing equipment provided on LuLa, one of the foremost but also most unbearable such musicians no longer spoils the ammusement with his resounding trumpet blasts. The spiritual comfort of seeing five or six empty pews in a row! No need for a précis to know what I haven't missed!
I my own case, I base the opening or passing of links on the poster: some I always open and others never, knowing by their long-revealed colours just where their heads are at and my natural reaction to them.
;-)
Rob,
copying the entire information from a supplied link would make the posts too long. Here is a concrete illustration, how to use a quote block and an external link to a prematurely published article on how to reduce your load on the next photography trip. As a matter of fact, quoting the said reference today is also premature, but now only by two days.
Mirrors or mirrorless?
One of the latest developments in the camera industry have been the mirrorless cameras. They are lighter and less susceptible to damage resulting from falls and vibrations, so switching to a mirrorless camera is a good first step. If you can’t give up the mirrors entirely, you can always carry a light travel shave mirror, they come in both, the spherical and rectangular form factors. For panoramic image scenes, you can use a polished metal spoon (use the outside convex side).
Clearing the Card Images
If you are in the habit of reusing memory cards, it’s a good practice to delete all old images from your memory cards. Why carry all those superfluous bits? You can delete the old images individually in your camera or computer, but it is always better to reformat the old cards. This gets rid not only of the old images but also of all the separating lines between the individual images and it results even in more weight savings.
Full article:
https://luminous-landscape.com/reduce-load-and-travel-lighter/
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I've come across this on Facebook. I do not vouch for the veracity of the statements, but seem to offer an interesting angle on the stats.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/The-evidence-on-Covid-19-is-not-as-clear-as-we-think?fbclid=IwAR15hg0z3vZgSr0z_GyCbz-pYoxiypu0OSl2mxZI1A_EJrSkc86_WpTZGYE
Thanks for the link, Slobodan. That's an interesting article, and food for thought, particularly the Facebook comment below.
I spent all day today trying to look up daily death rates for any other diseases. You can’t get it anywhere. They are reporting ONLY on coronavirus deaths. I suspect if we begin to demand the daily death toll numbers for heart disease, we will observe a deep decline.
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Thanks for the link, Slobodan. That's an interesting article, and food for thought, particularly the Facebook comment below.
When a Facebook post persona says: "I suspect ...", you've made me lose my attention.
Even people who should know a bit more than average, all of a sudden portrait themselves as experts on fields they clearly are unqualified to speak about with any authority. I prefer to rely on real experts, and they will say that they do not fully understand the novel virus.
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Come on Craig - when immensely wealthy people want to make yet more money - they don't do it so they can buy more cars or enjoy a better quality wine. They do it for fame, power, glory etc. Being President must be the ultimate power-trip and I'm sure was well worth any amount of money Trump needed to spend on securing the role.......
Jim
EDIT - I do think though that it is not the time to be partisan regarding politics - let's deal with the real threat. In spite of some shortcomings, I'm glad that here in the UK politics have largely been absent from the commentary so far - that can come later.
Yes its generally true that making money for a wealthy person is more a way to keep score. None of that diminishes the point that Trumps properties have been hit hard by the loss of Anti Trumpers visits and boycotts. There have been numerous articles showing the declining revenue since he took office. Just facts. He will likely leave office with less than he went in with.
It may be a power trip or simply a desire to better the nation. Only Trump knows.
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When a Facebook post persona says: "I suspect ...", you've made me lose my attention.
Even people who should know a bit more than average, all of a sudden portrait themselves as experts on fields they clearly are unqualified to speak about with any authority. I prefer to rely on real experts, and they will say that they do not fully understand the novel virus.
Bart,
The linked article from The Spectator, provided by Slobodan, was written by Dr John Lee who is a retired Professor of Pathology who had previously worked with the National Health Service as a consultant. The Facebook comment on that article was from a female African-American political commentator, Candace Owens.
After reading the article, I found it interesting that Candace claims to have spent a whole day searching for daily death rates for other diseases, but couldn't find any information. Perhaps you, Bart, with your superior skills, could do a better search and find out whether or not the reported deaths from heart disease, and other diseases, have remained constant whilst the deaths from Covid-19 have been escalating.
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Bart,
The linked article from The Spectator, provided by Slobodan, was written by Dr John Lee who is a retired Professor of Pathology who had previously worked with the National Health Service as a consultant. The Facebook comment on that article was from a female African-American political commentator, Candace Owens.
After reading the article, I found it interesting that Candace claims to have spent a whole day searching for daily death rates for other diseases, but couldn't find any information. Perhaps you, Bart, with your superior skills, could do a better search and find out whether or not the reported deaths from heart disease, and other diseases, have remained constant whilst the deaths from Covid-19 have been escalating.
I understand why you'd like to be able to differentiate between Corona-only deaths and those deaths in patients with comorbidities. However, I'd guess that the interest for the population at large is different: after all, Corona can come at you from your buddy - or a stranger sneezing in your presence or, alternatively, from heavy breathing that's aimed at you (but not via the telephone).
Heart attacks, cancer, excess fat, all the usual killer suspects are often avoidable depending on your own actions: Corona doesn't offer many such avoidance options within its agenda, and so it becomes far more scary and newsworthy because it's a hidden threat. Just like the nutter with a gun or knife. There is more mileage in the unseen menace.
Regarding the self-inflicted killers, I'd imagine statistics may only serve a purpose for those ordering medications, specialist equipment etc. but hardly for the public. I have had two heart attacks but it doesn't interest me in the least to know how many other people have had how many: it doesn't alter my future one iota. It's as interesting for me as reading about the number of spanners in the main Ford factory.
However, knowing how many people are sick (if any) with Corona in the local village is very interesting to me.
Rob
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Rob,
The issue raised here is not of comorbidity. The issue is if a person with other conditions dies, say from a heart attack, and is tested positive for Coronavirus, but is otherwise asymptomatic, do you classify that that as a Coronavirus death or a heart-attack death?
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Death statistics in Portugal for 2018:
- 113,051 (11/1,000 inhabitants). Majority people over 75 year old.
From the above number:
- 32,732 due to circulatory diseases: heart, strokes, etc
- 27,849 due to tumours
Covid-19: thus far, death rate in people over 70 is 8%. Similar to other countries whose population is dominated by old people. But yesterday we had a child of 14 that died. The cocktail is explosive - people with preconditions like above,plus diabetis, asthma, are a large part of the population, and are critically at risk.
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Rob,
The issue raised here is not of comorbidity. The issue is if a person with other conditions dies, say from a heart attack, and is tested positive for Coronavirus, but is otherwise asymptomatic, do you classify that that as a Coronavirus death or a heart-attack death?
Yes, but as I pointed out, such statistics are mainly of academic interest to the general public but of great, real importance to medical specialists, of which I am not one. It's akin to pixel peeping for the rest of us.
However, as I pointed out in my first sentence, there are those who simply enjoy statistics per se.
Bending my argument closer to your concern, it's similar to trying to classify how folks die if they have AIDS. Is it the disease or its effect elsewhere on the system? If you get fatally stabbed, do you die of fright, of loss of blood or a punctured vital organ? Does it matter, aren't you just as much past tense?
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I've come across this on Facebook. I do not vouch for the veracity of the statements, but seem to offer an interesting angle on the stats.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/The-evidence-on-Covid-19-is-not-as-clear-as-we-think?fbclid=IwAR15hg0z3vZgSr0z_GyCbz-pYoxiypu0OSl2mxZI1A_EJrSkc86_WpTZGYE
"Dr John Lee
How deadly is the coronavirus? It’s still far from clear
There is room for different interpretations of the data"
The post on Facebook accompanying the link, coming from a pro-Trump black public figure Candace Owens (bold mine)
Thanks for the link - very interesting in the suggestion that Covid 19 may not be that deadly and in fact most of those who are dying might have died soon anyway. However I find the fact that 50 doctors in Italy have died in the past few weeks from the virus somewhat discredits the theory. I cannot believe that those 50 doctors were mostly elderly and with serious health problems.....
Jim
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Rob,
The issue raised here is not of comorbidity. The issue is if a person with other conditions dies, say from a heart attack, and is tested positive for Coronavirus, but is otherwise asymptomatic, do you classify that that as a Coronavirus death or a heart-attack death?
An eternal problem with multi-variate data. If a patient with a heart condition dies while infected with C19, how do you determine if he would have lived had he not been infected?
One way would be to compare data with previous time periods in which C19 was not a factor, but of course not everything else is equal in those comparisons. There are statistical methods to assign probability to estimates, and their correctness depends on the number of data points. We're still collecting data. But you can probably take reasonable calculated guesses based on past contagions. There are buildings full of people whose job it is to do these calculations. It has been decades since I worried about multi-variate statistics.
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... However I find the fact that 50 doctors in Italy have died in the past few weeks from the virus somewhat discredits the theory. I cannot believe that those 50 doctors were mostly elderly and with serious health problems.....
I might not discredit the theory, but rather complement it. Doctors who are fighting coronavirus are extremely overworked and overstressed. Which in itself lowers your immunity.
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Rob,
The issue raised here is not of comorbidity. The issue is if a person with other conditions dies, say from a heart attack, and is tested positive for Coronavirus, but is otherwise asymptomatic, do you classify that that as a Coronavirus death or a heart-attack death?
In that case the cause of death would be as a result of a heart attack.
On the other hand, if a heart attack wasn't addressed in time or wasn't addressed properly or wasn't addressed at all because the health system in question was overwhelmed by coronavirus patients then it could be argued that other's coronaviruses played a part in that death.
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Reminder to play it safe and stay at home
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTODB54JalU&feature=youtu.be
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I might not discredit the theory, but rather complement it. Doctors who are fighting coronavirus are extremely overworked and overstressed. Which in itself lowers your immunity.
In truth we are all just playing a guessing game. In the coming months much more will be learned and one side or another might be proved right. I do think it is better to be cautious though - in spite of the economic risks.
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In truth we are all just playing a guessing game. In the coming months much more will be learned and one side or another might be proved right. I do think it is better to be cautious though - in spite of the economic risks.
Slobodan is raising a valid point.
Unfortunately, overworked doctors and other support personnel have indeed a lower immunity, and on top of it, there will be situations when they may make also bad decisions.
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NYC Dept of Health issues reports every day on the virus. These are as of Mar 25 yesterday.
This shows the number of deaths per each of the 5 boroughs. It has some statistics about underlying disease but it has not clarified most of it.
https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/doh/downloads/pdf/imm/covid-19-daily-data-summary.pdf
This one that shows cases and deaths by sex, age group, and borough
https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/doh/downloads/pdf/imm/covid-19-daily-data-summary-deaths.pdf
This one shows number of hospitalizations by sex, age group, and borough.
https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/doh/downloads/pdf/imm/covid-19-daily-data-summary-hospitalizations.pdf
This one shows testing and cases that are positive. What's interesting is that cases are more prevalent in Brooklyn and QUeens than in the Bronx, Staten Island and Manhattan.
https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/doh/downloads/pdf/imm/covid-19-data-map.pdf
This is their main web page.
https://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-main.page
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Enough with your fancy C19 graphs. Time for a different visualization: 1. exponential growth 2. flattening the curve 3. recovery
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Death Certificate have immediate cause, underlying cause, and other information. Here's an explanation of how they do them. There's an example of a certificate down the page. For example, the immediate cause could be heart attack. But the underlying cause could be arteriolar sclerosis or covid-19. So it would be said he died of a heart attack. But really it was covid that brought it on as the intermediate ior underlying cause.
Immediate cause of death:The final disease or injury causing the death.
Intermediate cause of death: A disease or condition that preceded and caused the immediate cause of death.
Underlying cause of death: A disease or condition present before, and leading to, the intermediate or immediate cause of death. It can be present for years before the death.
Manner of death: The circumstances leading to death—accident, homicide, suicide, unknown or undetermined, and natural causes.
https://www.mdedge.com/familymedicine/article/60314/cause-death-certification-not-easy-it-seems
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Rob,
The issue raised here is not of comorbidity. The issue is if a person with other conditions dies, say from a heart attack, and is tested positive for Coronavirus, but is otherwise asymptomatic, do you classify that that as a Coronavirus death or a heart-attack death?
I was listening to a podcast this morning with someone from New Orleans who is more in depth following the situation there. He is reporting that 41% of people the media is describing as otherwise young and healthy who died are overweight and/or obese.
This could be a factor not being taken into consideration as well.
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Rob,
copying the entire information from a supplied link would make the posts too long. Here is a concrete illustration, how to use a quote block and an external link to a prematurely published article on how to reduce your load on the next photography trip. As a matter of fact, quoting the said reference today is also premature, but now only by two days.
Full article:
https://luminous-landscape.com/reduce-load-and-travel-lighter/
Hmmm. A little self-promotion. Have you been taking lessons from our president? :)
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Thanks for the link - very interesting in the suggestion that Covid 19 may not be that deadly and in fact most of those who are dying might have died soon anyway. However I find the fact that 50 doctors in Italy have died in the past few weeks from the virus somewhat discredits the theory. I cannot believe that those 50 doctors were mostly elderly and with serious health problems.....
Jim
I read an article that health providers may have high death rates because they've been exposed to a high amount of the virus. Maybe, with smaller amounts, the body can fight it off and people survive at higher rates.
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US Navy Hospital ship with 1000 beds and 12 operating rooms arrives in Manhattan. It will treat regular patients leaving on-shore hospitals more room to handle Covid cases.
https://twitter.com/KevRincon/status/1244628095698718725
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Hmmm. A little self-promotion. Have you been taking lessons from our president? :)
I wrote it to compensate for all bad news. This is already an Annus Horribilis, in general and for me also personally. As the Queen Elizabeth said a few years ago, "2020 is not a year on which I shall look back with undiluted pleasure".
As to the promotion, I haven't started with the tweets yet.
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I wrote it to compensate for all bad news. This is already an Annus Horribilis, in general and for me also personally. As the Queen Elizabeth said a few years ago, "2020 is not a year on which I shall look back with undiluted pleasure".
I knew she was an oracle ;)
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The idea that we have some deaths attributed to Covid 19 that might otherwise have occurred because of other conditions like cancer and heart disease is rather beside the point, and only of interest to people obsessed by numbers. The medical facilities of advanced countries are calibrated to take those deaths, and those struggles, into account. So, generally, we have x number of ventilators and that number is adequate to deal with everything except occasional overloads which can be transferred to other hospitals. Now, we have a very serious shortage of ventilators which tells you something -- we're having an extraordinary health crisis involving thousands of people simultaneously, and a large number of them are dying. Parsing out which might have died anyway is a fool's errant -- they're dead. The only good reason for trying to determine the number of excess deaths (which can only be done when it's all over with) would be to serve as a warning of what could be coming next time, and could be even worse.
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The idea that we have some deaths attributed to Covid 19 that might otherwise have occurred because of other conditions like cancer and heart disease is rather beside the point, and only of interest to people obsessed by numbers. The medical facilities of advanced countries are calibrated to take those deaths, and those struggles, into account. So, generally, we have x number of ventilators and that number is adequate to deal with everything except occasional overloads which can be transferred to other hospitals. Now, we have a very serious shortage of ventilators which tells you something -- we're having an extraordinary health crisis involving thousands of people simultaneously, and a large number of them are dying. Parsing out which might have died anyway is a fool's errant -- they're dead. The only good reason for trying to determine the number of excess deaths (which can only be done when it's all over with) would be to serve as a warning of what could be coming next time, and could be even worse.
The issue with preparation is that we tend to fight the last war. So we'll probably overbuy ventilators for the future. Then, something else will hit that we're not prepare for. Did you ever face the situation that you wished you had your other lens that you left home that day? Life's like that.
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The idea that we have some deaths attributed to Covid 19 that might otherwise have occurred because of other conditions like cancer and heart disease is rather beside the point, and only of interest to people obsessed by numbers. The medical facilities of advanced countries are calibrated to take those deaths, and those struggles, into account. So, generally, we have x number of ventilators and that number is adequate to deal with everything except occasional overloads which can be transferred to other hospitals. Now, we have a very serious shortage of ventilators which tells you something -- we're having an extraordinary health crisis involving thousands of people simultaneously, and a large number of them are dying. Parsing out which might have died anyway is a fool's errant -- they're dead. The only good reason for trying to determine the number of excess deaths (which can only be done when it's all over with) would be to serve as a warning of what could be coming next time, and could be even worse.
The conspiracy theorists are floating the idea that anti-Trumpers are counting people who die from a heart attack and test positive for the coronavirus as having died from coronavirus in an effort to blow the pandemic out of all proportion. Eventually they will conclude that the US only ever had 15 cases and they quickly went down to zero.
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The conspiracy theorists are floating the idea anti-Trumpers are counting people who die from a heart attack and test positive for the coronavirus as a having died from coronavirus in an effort to blow the pandemic out of all proportion. Eventually they will conclude that the US only ever had 15 cases and they quickly went down to zero.
The President, the Congress, Democrats and Republicans, the media,are all in as everyone else regarding the pandemic. Who's going to say that they made a mistake about it's severity after shutting down the whole country and putting everyone out of work? Deaths will justify the extreme measures taken. No one in authority is going to downplay it or believe contrarian statistics.
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The conspiracy theorists...
You appear to be one of them.
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The President, the Congress, Democrats and Republicans, the media,are all in as everyone else regarding the pandemic. Who's going to say that they made a mistake about it's severity after shutting down the whole country and putting everyone out of work? Deaths will justify the extreme measures taken. No one in authority is going to downplay it or believe contrarian statistics.
Until the total dead crosses the 200,000 threshold Trump has laid down as the outside marker where he can still claim he did a good job.
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The issue with preparation is that we tend to fight the last war. So we'll probably overbuy ventilators for the future. Then, something else will hit that we're not prepare for. Did you ever face the situation that you wished you had your other lens that you left home that day? Life's like that.
It's always prudent to carry a few extra lenses. You never know what you'll come across.
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Until the total dead crosses the 200,000 threshold Trump has laid down as the outside marker where he can still claim he did a good job.
That is what you guys get for repeatably touting that USA 2.2M death toll number from the (now known to be flawed) Imperial College study. You gave him an easy way out.
I foresee Trump repeatably stating 2.2M Americans would have died if we did nothing at every press conference going forward, and the media/Dems really cant contest him on that since they themselves insisted that same number was the most accurate prediction.
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That is what you guys get for repeatably touting that USA 2.2M death toll number from the (now known to be flawed) Imperial College study. You gave him an easy way out.
I foresee Trump repeatably stating 2.2M Americans would have died if we did nothing at every press conference going forward, and the media/Dems really cant contest him on that since they themselves insisted that same number was the most accurate prediction.
I don't see that as a get out of jail card for any other than his base. The Democrats will simply argue that if he had done more, better, sooner, the death toll would have been lower than it actually turns out to be.
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I don't see that as a get out of jail card for any other than his base. The Democrats will simply argue that if he had done more, better, sooner, the death toll would have been lower than it actually turns out to be.
Sure they will. But will it do them any good? I don't think so. YMMV
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The Democrats will claim it should have been better and the republicans will claim it would have been worse but for Trump. But, he'll get credit if the stock market rebounds, deaths stop, the disease ends, and a good portion of people are back working.
However, none of us should count our chickens before they hatch. We've got a long hard road ahead. What should be concerning is that next year, will we face a recurrence of the disease? What will the printing of money do and will the recession really be stopped by the phony money being created? We were due for a recession in any case after all the debt we've run up. The virus was the pin that pricked the bubble. We've got no savings. The government is broke. If unemployment cannot be dropped back down, all those out of work will create a debt crisis where banks and government holding mortgages, car loans, and corporate bonds failing, will create another financial crises. We're no way out of the woods.
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I don't see that as a get out of jail card for any other than his base. The Democrats will simply argue that if he had done more, better, sooner, the death toll would have been lower than it actually turns out to be.
They could argue that ... if they actually were calling for it back then.
However at the time, every single person on both sides downplayed this, including all of the media and Dems. Then, to add to that, the one thing every health experts says saved lives and gave us an advantage to not become like other countries was closing off all travel to China. Biden, and the rest of the Dems, all called this unnecessary and xenophobic, which is a major liability for them if they criticize Trump over his response.
So they really do not have any legs to stand on here, which is why Joe Biden on CNN the other day insisted that Trump was doing a good job. Yes, he actually said this of Trump. On top of this, it is now coming out that the Obama administration was warned about a ventilator shortage, which just adds to Biden's liability in this argument.
(The only one who could partially criticize Trump on this is Cuomo. He has some bad public moments as well on this, but Biden really painted himself into a corner here.)
Now, do I feel Trump could have done better? Yes. He made a good move closing off travel to China, but then wasted February. But this was due to the overall apathy that the entirety of the country World had on this. De Blasio told New Yorkers to not worry and to continue their lives as normal (was actually question by Jake Tapper over the weekend) and of course their are others. But going back to my original point ...
It is obvious some in the media are trying to put Trump into a Catch-22 by constantly talking about the worse possible predictions, while simply ignoring more plausible others. (Dr. Deborah Birx admonished the media recently for just this.) If Trump ignores them, then he can be criticized for not taking the virus seriously and costing lives, which can be used against him in November. However, if he does shut down the country, the economy will be destroyed, which can be used against him in November. However, the caveat here is that the media constantly used that 2.2M figure, which gives Trump an out politically. So long as the death toll does not approach that, the media have given Trump a way to declare victory politically.
PS. I think the real responsibility goes to both China and WHO. It is now coming to light China may have known about this as far back as November and told no one. They were more concerned with their own reputation then the Chinese people and the world. Then, the WHO has shown itself to become a shrill for China, and simply republished all of the Chinese propaganda throughout January without sending a single investigator to Wuhan. Even now, WHO continues to push this propaganda, has gone to great lengths to try and make sure the virus is not referred to as Chinese, and, even recently, refused to even discuss Taiwan's exemplary response on containing the virus merely due to political reasons. I think our relations with both need to be seriously questioned and reviewed after all of this.
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Meanwhile the middle class will pay for the "rescue" through inflation. The US Treasury with this new legislation has been given the equivalent of over $4 trillion dollar slush fund over the $2 trillion to cycle through banks to bail out corporations and banks in trouble. The middle class will suffer as this inflation will raise prices on necessities like food, medical care, rent, local taxes, and clothes. With high unemployment, forget pay raises to pay for the higher costs. Of course, it seems they're preparing another bailout of those out of work as there's no end to money as long as you have ink and paper.
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Meanwhile the middle class will pay for the "rescue" through inflation. The US Treasury with this new legislation has been given the equivalent of over $4 trillion dollar slush fund over the $2 trillion to cycle through banks to bail out corporations and banks in trouble. The middle class will suffer as this inflation will raise prices on necessities like food, medical care, rent, local taxes, and clothes. With high unemployment, forget pay raises to pay for the higher costs. Of course, it seems they're preparing another bailout of those out of work as there's no end to money as long as you have ink and paper.
You worry too much. That money simply isn't being printed and given away.While some of it is in grants, most of it is in th form of loans or purchases of bonds, including federal bonds, to try to keep some liquidity within the financial system. Over the next few years, the US inflation rate isn't expected to exceed about 2.3%. Which is okay. And your social security is inflation-adjusted.
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The Democrats will claim it should have been better and the republicans will claim it would have been worse but for Trump. But, he'll get credit if the stock market rebounds, deaths stop, the disease ends, and a good portion of people are back working.
However, none of us should count our chickens before they hatch. We've got a long hard road ahead. What should be concerning is that next year, will we face a recurrence of the disease? What will the printing of money do and will the recession really be stopped by the phony money being created? We were due for a recession in any case after all the debt we've run up. The virus was the pin that pricked the bubble. We've got no savings. The government is broke. If unemployment cannot be dropped back down, all those out of work will create a debt crisis where banks and government holding mortgages, car loans, and corporate bonds failing, will create another financial crises. We're no way out of the woods.
Weren't you the guy speculating as late as 2 days ago that this might not be worse than a "normal" flu? When did you change your mind about that?
Anyway that's right guys, it was China's fault (in part true insofar as that's where it got its start), it was the Democrats fault, hey it might even have been Obama's fault, why not Biden's, you can choose to blame whoever you want if it makes you feel better. But all the people who didn't think it was a problem and ignored all the warnings, like your Pres, well no, it wasn't their fault, of course not. How could it be. Maybe now it's the fault of all the people who are overreacting, sure, why not.
The USA is a modern nation with state of the art medical facilities, you had LOADS of warnings from people in the know, all very well documented, and you've had those warnings for a long time now well back into November when it all started, but you now have the highest number of cases in the world and you may still be 2-3 weeks from peak infection and your deaths are sadly increasing at alarming rates. But hey, if you want to self-delude about who is to blame, have at it, disk space is cheap.
Maryland has mandated "stay-at-home". Even the Governor of Florida who didn't think the contagion very serious a few short days ago is now issuing orders to stay at home, but I notice he started with southern Florida only. Maybe that's his way of saying it's not that serious yet, so presumably he's waiting for numbers in northern Florida to increase before doing anything there, which is exactly the wrong way to proceed, as everyone in the world knows by now, except him it seems.
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So let me see what this means. So a restaurant hires back their workers who they laid off because the restaurant closed. The workers get 8 weeks of pay for no work paid by the government for loans that will be forgiven if the restaurant hires them back. But meanwhile the restaurant stays closed because no one's eating there. What do the workers do for their pay? What happens after 8 weeks? Will the government do another bill for another 8 weeks? What I want to know, is why I'm spending my tax money and can't eat a meal out? Maybe those workers can prepare my supper and send it over to my home so I can eat it there. And the Republicans call the Democrats socialists. Of course this is just a bogus giveaway bill so people vote for Trump in November. He might lose my vote to Biden. At least Joe couldn't come up with something so stupid and perverse since he's napping all the time.
Half those businesses are going to fail anyway as the economy tanks. So instead of using that do nothing labor to go get real jobs where they can be productive and make things and give service, we going to pay them to do nothing in a company that serves no purpose.
Only in America.
Secy. Mnuchin Tells Small Businesses ‘Go Back And Hire Your Workers’
“Those loans will cover eight weeks of workers’ salary, plus additional money for overhead. If you let your workers go, you bring back your workers. For every worker you have, that portion of the loan is forgiven. So, I encourage all small business, that’s about half of the U.S. private payroll, (to) go back and hire your workers, because the government is paying you to do that.”
– Steven Mnuchin, U.S. Secretary of Treasury
https://www.oann.com/secy-mnuchin-tells-small-businesses-go-back-and-hire-your-workers/
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Haters gonna hate.
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You worry too much. That money simply isn't being printed and given away.While some of it is in grants, most of it is in th form of loans or purchases of bonds, including federal bonds, to try to keep some liquidity within the financial system. Over the next few years, the US inflation rate isn't expected to exceed about 2.3%. Which is okay. And your social security is inflation-adjusted.
First, my fixed income pension and savings is not adjusted for inflation. EVery percent costs go up reduce its purchasing power with no recourse. Interest rates suck and for old people, risky stock market investment are not the way to go. Second, while SS does have COLA adjustments for inflation, the cost of a basket of goods they use is for the general public and not what elderly spend their money on which is higher. The expected inflation rate of 2.3% is bogus. The government is printing $6 trillion dollars on top of the $1 trillion deficit just for this year. There's real talk there's going to be another rescue mackage in a few months. We're going to see inflation like we had (maybe you weren't alive then) in the 1970's when in a 12 year period from 1970 to 1982, inflation went up 55%. So $100 in 1970 was worth only $45 in 1982.
Even it was 2.3%, $100,000 retirement nest egg would only be worth $88,500 in purchasing power in just 5 years. In the old days you use to be able to make it up with interest rates. But today, they're effectively at 0.
As far as it being issued as bonds, it will never be paid back as companies struggle along in a recession. It will all turn into grants or more infamously known as bailouts.
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So let me see what this means. So a restaurant hires back their workers who they laid off because the restaurant closed. The workers get 8 weeks of pay for no work paid by the government for loans that will be forgiven if the restaurant hires them back. But meanwhile the restaurant stays closed because no one's eating there. What do the workers do for their pay? What happens after 8 weeks? Will the government do another bill for another 8 weeks? What I want to know, is why I'm spending my tax money and can't eat a meal out? Maybe those workers can prepare my supper and send it over to my home so I can eat it there. And the Republicans call the Democrats socialists. Of course this is just a bogus giveaway bill so people vote for Trump in November. He might lose my vote to Biden. At least Joe couldn't come up with something so stupid and perverse since he's napping all the time.
Half those businesses are going to fail anyway as the economy tanks. So instead of using that do nothing labor to go get real jobs where they can be productive and make things and give service, we going to pay them to do nothing in a company that serves no purpose.
Only in America.
Secy. Mnuchin Tells Small Businesses ‘Go Back And Hire Your Workers’
“Those loans will cover eight weeks of workers’ salary, plus additional money for overhead. If you let your workers go, you bring back your workers. For every worker you have, that portion of the loan is forgiven. So, I encourage all small business, that’s about half of the U.S. private payroll, (to) go back and hire your workers, because the government is paying you to do that.”
– Steven Mnuchin, U.S. Secretary of Treasury
https://www.oann.com/secy-mnuchin-tells-small-businesses-go-back-and-hire-your-workers/
Wait, It's even more perverted than that. So let's say there is a company doing some work. So now the government, us the taxpayers, will pay the owner's cost of labor for 8 weeks. Even if he does a little or a lot of work, he'll be taking all that salary he would have spent without government handouts and put it in his pocket. After all, his labor will cost him nothing. So for example, let's say a small company makes widgets. He has 10 employees who earn $500 a week or $5000. So the government will pay him $40,000 to pay his employees for the 8 weeks. So that cost of labor goes to his bottom line giving him $40,000 in additional profit that he would not have gotten in normal times. That $40,000 goes right into his pocket. This is nuts!!!
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First, my fixed income pension and savings is not adjusted for inflation. EVery percent costs go up reduce its purchasing power with no recourse. Interest rates suck and for old people, risky stock market investment are not the way to go. Second, while SS does have COLA adjustments for inflation, the cost of a basket of goods they use is for the general public and not what elderly spend their money on which is higher. The expected inflation rate of 2.3% is bogus. The government is printing $6 trillion dollars on top of the $1 trillion deficit just for this year. There's real talk there's going to be another rescue mackage in a few months. We're going to see inflation like we had (maybe you weren't alive then) in the 1970's when in a 12 year period from 1970 to 1982, inflation went up 55%. So $100 in 1970 was worth only $45 in 1982.
Even it was 2.3%, $100,000 retirement nest egg would only be worth $88,500 in purchasing power in just 5 years. In the old days you use to be able to make it up with interest rates. But today, they're effectively at 0.
As far as it being issued as bonds, it will never be paid back as companies struggle along in a recession. It will all turn into grants or more infamously known as bailouts.
Alan, I'm older than you are. My first house mortgage was at something like 9%. I went through that whole period of high inflation, and here I am, happy as a clam, except, of course, that I might die from the Trump Virus. You worry too much. The stress is going to kill you, and then, probably, your death will be used to pump up virus numbers. You gotta relax, man.
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What I want to know, is why I'm spending my tax money and can't eat a meal out?
Certainly an important question.
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First, my fixed income pension and savings is not adjusted for inflation. EVery percent costs go up reduce its purchasing power with no recourse. Interest rates suck and for old people, risky stock market investment are not the way to go. Second, while SS does have COLA adjustments for inflation, the cost of a basket of goods they use is for the general public and not what elderly spend their money on which is higher. The expected inflation rate of 2.3% is bogus. The government is printing $6 trillion dollars on top of the $1 trillion deficit just for this year. There's real talk there's going to be another rescue mackage in a few months. We're going to see inflation like we had (maybe you weren't alive then) in the 1970's when in a 12 year period from 1970 to 1982, inflation went up 55%. So $100 in 1970 was worth only $45 in 1982.
Even it was 2.3%, $100,000 retirement nest egg would only be worth $88,500 in purchasing power in just 5 years. In the old days you use to be able to make it up with interest rates. But today, they're effectively at 0.
As far as it being issued as bonds, it will never be paid back as companies struggle along in a recession. It will all turn into grants or more infamously known as bailouts.
Alan, you are clearly being cheated.
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Alan, I'm older than you are. My first house mortgage was at something like 9%. I went through that whole period of high inflation, and here I am, happy as a clam, except, of course, that I might die from the Trump Virus. You worry too much. The stress is going to kill you, and then, probably, your death will be used to pump up virus numbers. You gotta relax, man.
Well, there's nothing we can do about it. But think about it. A small company can have up to 500 employees. The government is going to pay their salaries? So the owner, is going to keep those salaries for himels that he would have spent out of his sales. 500 people at $500 a week is $250,000 a week or $2 million dollars for the 8 week period. So the owner puts $2 million in his pocket that he would never had earned in normal times. How does that make any sense? How is that fair to retired people like you and me? Unless you own that business, of course. :)
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Alan, you are clearly being cheated.
Frank, you also are being cheated. How much is your salary going to be worth in buying power when inflation devalues the currency? The process of inflation (printing money) is theft. Handouts to people who get it cost those least able to afford devaluation to pay for it.
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Weren't you the guy speculating as late as 2 days ago that this might not be worse than a "normal" flu? When did you change your mind about that?
Anyway that's right guys, it was China's fault (in part true insofar as that's where it got its start), it was the Democrats fault, hey it might even have been Obama's fault, why not Biden's, you can choose to blame whoever you want if it makes you feel better. But all the people who didn't think it was a problem and ignored all the warnings, like your Pres, well no, it wasn't their fault, of course not. How could it be. Maybe now it's the fault of all the people who are overreacting, sure, why not.
The USA is a modern nation with state of the art medical facilities, you had LOADS of warnings from people in the know, all very well documented, and you've had those warnings for a long time now well back into November when it all started, but you now have the highest number of cases in the world and you may still be 2-3 weeks from peak infection and your deaths are sadly increasing at alarming rates. But hey, if you want to self-delude about who is to blame, have at it, disk space is cheap.
Maryland has mandated "stay-at-home". Even the Governor of Florida who didn't think the contagion very serious a few short days ago is now issuing orders to stay at home, but I notice he started with southern Florida only. Maybe that's his way of saying it's not that serious yet, so presumably he's waiting for numbers in northern Florida to increase before doing anything there, which is exactly the wrong way to proceed, as everyone in the world knows by now, except him it seems.
First off, it still may turn out less than the regular flu. But it seems that won't be the case. So conditions change and my opinion changes. If I planned on betting on a horse and he breaks his leg, I'm not going to bet on him any longer. Only a fool never changes his mind.
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Frank, you also are being cheated. How much is your salary going to be worth in buying power when inflation devalues the currency? The process of inflation (printing money) is theft. Handouts to people who get it cost those least able to afford devaluation to pay for it.
Perhaps that big tax cut generating trillion dollar deficits as far as the eye can see wasn't such a good idea after all.
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Here's an idea for you pro photographers during this time of no work. Quickly hire 5 guys and have them make hundreds of large, framed beautiful photos for you. The government will pay their salary. You'll only have the cost of the material. Then when they're done, lay them off. Then go out and sell the photos at low prices that people will scoop up and make huge profits anyway due to no labor costs. I'm sure you can think of dozens of businesses where this will work for you. As an American taxpayer, I'm only too glad to help fund your business.
Your welcome.
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Perhaps that big tax cut generating trillion dollar deficits as far as the eye can see wasn't such a good idea after all.
The tax cut was great. There should have been commensurate spending cuts.
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The tax cut was great. There should have been commensurate spending cuts.
Yep, Trump should have never signed it, but that's representative democracy at work.
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First off, it still may turn out less than the regular flu.
Huh? :o
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Here's an idea for you pro photographers during this time of no work. Quickly hire 5 guys and have them make hundreds of large, framed beautiful photos for you. The government will pay their salary. You'll only have the cost of the material. Then when they're done, lay them off. Then go out and sell the photos at low prices that people will scoop up and make huge profits anyway due to no labor costs. I'm sure you can think of dozens of businesses where this will work for you. As an American taxpayer, I'm only too glad to help fund your business.
Your welcome.
You know it doesn't work like that right? The program is designed to help businesses continue to employ people and make payments like insurance premiums, leases etc. You don't actually get the loan to transform to a grant if you just pocket the money. (There's obviously more to it, but as a business owner who's trying to figure out how to keep my employees taken care of right now, that's my general understanding so far.)
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This is pretty scary. And don't spout the "fake news" crapola, it would just make you look like an idiot.
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/trump-s-coronavirus-quarantine-rhetoric-fuels-dangerously-politicized-pandemic-ncna1170406
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This is pretty scary. And don't spout the "fake news" crapola, it would just make you look like an idiot.
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/trump-s-coronavirus-quarantine-rhetoric-fuels-dangerously-politicized-pandemic-ncna1170406
It says “opinion” in the very link.
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So let me see what this means. So a restaurant hires back their workers who they laid off because the restaurant closed. The workers get 8 weeks of pay for no work paid by the government for loans that will be forgiven if the restaurant hires them back. But meanwhile the restaurant stays closed because no one's eating there. What do the workers do for their pay? What happens after 8 weeks? Will the government do another bill for another 8 weeks? What I want to know, is why I'm spending my tax money and can't eat a meal out?
Alan,
This might not be as disastrous as it seems if we make a distinction between 'essential' and 'non-essential' services. Spending a $100 on a tasty meal and a couple of drinks in a restaurant might be good business for the restaurant, but is poor business for the client or consumer. The actual cost of the food and drinks consumed, that could be bought in the Supermarket, is perhaps $20. By doing his own cooking, the consumer saves $80 (or maybe $78, taking the cost of electricity into consideration).
The same situation applies to so many other activities which are, broadly speaking, just entertainment. Footballers, singers, airline and cruise ship employees, hotel employees, and so on, cease to earn money, but all their clients save money.
As long as all the essential services are maintained, such as food production, energy supplies, maintenance of infrastructure, hospital care, and so on, we should be okay.
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Yep, Trump should have never signed it, but that's representative democracy at work.
Yes, he's a spendthrift just like the rest of them, maybe worse. After all, his whole career in real estate is built on debt.
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It says “opinion” in the very link.
Not only that, the author is a day late and a dollar short on the current facts. Not everyone gets it right. Farewell, made a huge mistake. Biden and much of the Dem establishment did too by trashing Trumps China blockade and Mayors of New York and New Orleans telling people to go ahead and party. And let’s not forget the Governor of Florida, a Republican who didn’t close the beaches during Spring Break. How many cases did this add to the spread when these people came home or continued to move around?
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It says “opinion” in the very link.
Although well laden with facts to back up what limited "opinion" is ventured therein.
.
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Although well laden with facts to back up what limited "opinion" is ventured therein.
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That Opinion was anything but limited. Pretty much par for the course for an MSNBC “ Think” piece. A leftist screed and Hit piece. It might be right up your alley.
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Here's an idea for you pro photographers during this time of no work. Quickly hire 5 guys and have them make hundreds of large, framed beautiful photos for you. The government will pay their salary. You'll only have the cost of the material. Then when they're done, lay them off. Then go out and sell the photos at low prices that people will scoop up and make huge profits anyway due to no labor costs. I'm sure you can think of dozens of businesses where this will work for you. As an American taxpayer, I'm only too glad to help fund your business.
Your welcome.
Nowadays, it's hard to sell framed photographs even at the discounted prices. Unless you include with each frame one pack of toilet paper.
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That Opinion was anything but limited. Pretty much par for the course for an MSNBC “ Think” piece. A leftist screed and Hit piece. It might be right up your alley.
Dude... you told us we should watch OAN to get perspective. ;D
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Dude... you told us we should watch OAN to get perspective. ;D
I read MSNBC first thing every morning to do just that😎
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You know it doesn't work like that right? The program is designed to help businesses continue to employ people and make payments like insurance premiums, leases etc. You don't actually get the loan to transform to a grant if you just pocket the money. (There's obviously more to it, but as a business owner who's trying to figure out how to keep my employees taken care of right now, that's my general understanding so far.)
James, Maybe I don;t understand it. But I thought the government will reimburse the employer if they keep paying their employees. In effect, the government is paying their salaries directly or indirectly - doesn;t matter. The business owner gets back the cost of their salary from Uncle Sam. Money's fungible. That money goes to your bottom line as earnings. So you have cost free labor courtesy of the government for eight weeks. Of course you have to pay leases, rents, utilities, etc. But so what. You have to pay that anyway. The pointis you have free labor the most =costly part of running most businesses.
Am I missing something here? Could the government be that stupid or maybe I didn't read the rules right? If this is true, it';s going to be a huge fraud and Trump's going to look like a jerk. COngress too. Here the article. You tell me if I'm right. It seems you borrow money from the government. If you use it to pay your employees, which of course you will do, then the load is forgiven. So you get labor free employees for 8 weeks. In fact, you can pay lease, rent, utilities also. You don;t have to repay any of it. Now how dumb is that? This is a $377 billion giveaway to small business owners. And the Democrats in the Senate and House agreed to it. What dummies! My money. And yours. Unless you're in business for yourself.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/26/business/coronavirus-stimulus-small-business.html
"The stimulus package is offering small businesses S.B.A.-backed loans to pay for basic expenses. They would not have to repay portions that were spent on paying employees, a mortgage, rent or utilities. The banks lending the money would be reimbursed for those portions by the Treasury Department, which is receiving $377 billion to fund the program."
"Businesses would not have to repay loans covering up to eight weeks worth of payroll expenses. That means that once businesses receive their loans, a new clock will begin to tick: They’ll have to use the money within two months to avoid repaying it."
Here's another fraud as owners raise salaries of some employees to split the difference in additional pay received from the government up to $100,000 per employee.
"The program comes with restrictions: Loans are limited to $10 million, to businesses with 500 employees or less. Businesses that have recently laid off workers would be required to repay a larger portion of their loans, and loans covering salaries of over $100,000 a year wouldn’t qualify for forgiveness".
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Alan,
This might not be as disastrous as it seems if we make a distinction between 'essential' and 'non-essential' services. Spending a $100 on a tasty meal and a couple of drinks in a restaurant might be good business for the restaurant, but is poor business for the client or consumer. The actual cost of the food and drinks consumed, that could be bought in the Supermarket, is perhaps $20. By doing his own cooking, the consumer saves $80 (or maybe $78, taking the cost of electricity into consideration).
The same situation applies to so many other activities which are, broadly speaking, just entertainment. Footballers, singers, airline and cruise ship employees, hotel employees, and so on, cease to earn money, but all their clients save money.
As long as all the essential services are maintained, such as food production, energy supplies, maintenance of infrastructure, hospital care, and so on, we should be okay.
Ray, I'm sorry but I don;t understand your point at all and what it has to do with my point. My point is the government is paying for labor for a business whose doors are closed. What are the employees doing? Nothing? On the other hand, if the business is open, and doing business, why does the government have to pay their labor costs and the businessmen's other costs? All that extra money is just going into his pocket. He's becoming rich on taxpayer money. It's a redistribution of wealth to business people.
I can understand the part of the bill that provides low interest or no interest loans to the business. But this is just sticking money in the businessmen's pocket for no reason. And this is what that genius Mnuchin came up with Trump's approval.
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Huh? :o
The regular flu killed 50,000 Americans last year. We're no where near that point with C-19. I was hoping that the new virus wouldn't be as bad. Are you hoping it'll be worse?
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Nowadays, it's hard to sell framed photographs even at the discounted prices. Unless you include with each frame one pack of toilet paper.
Well I'm not a pro photographer. But considering the giveaways the government is doing, this is the time to make some money off their stupidity if you are a pro. If framed photos won;t work, then be creative and think of something else. Hire an employee to create a website for your company or improve one you have that you can use later. It seems the government will repay his salary for eight weeks. Hire a guy to develop and photo finish all your prints for that wedding you shot before the crises. Come on. There's got to be dozens of things photographers can hire people to do now. The government's going to pay their salaries.
Hire me. I'm retired and looking for a few weeks work. Who cares what it's going to cost you? You'll get it back.
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The regular flu killed 50,000 Americans last year. We're no where near that point with C-19. I was hoping that the new virus wouldn't be as bad. Are you hoping it'll be worse?
C-19 killed 3,000 Americans in 3 months. If the infection date keeps doubling, the monthly death count would grow exponentially and 50,000 flu deaths would seem miniscule. The only question is how quickly it will double and for how long.
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Trump and the rest of the dummies in Congress are already working on the 4th bailout bill. The ink on the one just passed hasn't dried yet. The American dollar isn't going to be worth the paper it's printed on. Your wallpaper will be worth more. This one will bailout all the broke states and everyone else they missed in the first bill. Of course, prices on everything will go up 50% and you won't be able to feed your family on your salary. But hey, let's have a party.
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C-19 killed 3,000 Americans in 3 months. If the infection date keeps doubling, the monthly death count would grow exponentially and 50,000 flu deaths would seem miniscule. The only question is how quickly it will double and for how long.
Well of course. Let's hope the doubling stops and the virus dies out. In NY, Gov Cuomo said the doubling has gone from 2, then 3, then 5 days, and now I think it may be 6 days. So maybe we'll get lucky. Let's hope so.
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Well of course. Let's hope the doubling stops and the virus dies out. In NY, Gov Cuomo said the doubling has gone from 2, then 3, then 5 days, and now I think it may be 6 days. So maybe we'll get lucky. Let's hope so.
Luck has nothing to do with it. Math does not lie, and the scenarios are there already studied for sure. In Portugal, the estimation ranges between 20,000 and 70,000 deaths, depending on the effect of the isolation measures. In the USA, it will easily go above that - I saw on the news yesterday that Trump mentioned that if the number of deaths stays at or below 200,000 it is a good result. He was comparing with early (?) estimations of 2 million deaths.
It is a balance between the health crisis and the economic crisis - how many deaths are you willing to take, versus not destroying the economic fabric of society. China has opened somewhat already, and they already had a few deaths again.
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This contribution is mainly addressed to Alan Klein. I hope that I am not considered patronising. Alan, you have written several contributions to this thread, and sometimes used the words, ‘I don’t understand.’ Can I give some comments on how the UK is tackling the issue of the pandemic and the economy. Although there are differences between our two countries there are parallels, I believe.
Can I start with some assumptions.
1. Society wants the pandemic to be time limited.
2. Currently there is no vaccine that is known to be effective and with no dire side effects.
3. The virus spreads through human interaction.
4. Comparisons have been made to seasonal flu. I think it would be fair to say that society does not want to see extra deaths, nor more people becoming ill and stopping being fully functioning members of society while ill.
5. Society does not want the health system in their country to become overwhelmed and unable to cope. This could be caused by either or both of too many patients and/or staff becoming ill and would affect all with health issues not just Covid-19.
6. To reduce the spread of the virus, human interaction has to be reduced. People cannot be relied on to do this voluntarily, so Governments have to take action.
7. Reduction in human interaction has a negative effect on the economy.
The dilemma is what governments do about reducing the negative effects on the economy and getting it up and running as soon as possible. In the UK the thinking has been roughly along these lines.
Do nothing and people will become unemployed and the number of claimants will rise, probably by a large number. Money will have to found. When it becomes time to get the economy going by relaxing restrictions, it will be a question of how quickly it can recover. If nothing is done and the money is found for the increased benefits bill, then it is thought many companies will have ceased trading. This will obviously have an effect on the economic recovery and extend the time extra benefit payments are made. An alternative is to give financial help to employers, employees, and the self-employed for companies and business to stay afloat and to cut the benefits bill. With fewer companies going broke and keeping staff on the books the economy should recover quicker. It will also mean that people will have more money in their pockets as they are not unemployed so buying will start more quickly. It is then a question of how much extra the Government has to find over the projected increased benefit bill and is it worth it to get the country back on its feet. The UK Government thinks it is, and judging by the public reaction, they think it is as well. The extra money will be found by extra borrowing, but borrowing costs are low currently.
As I wrote above, I do think that there are sufficient parallels between our two countries for these points to be made. No doubt people will disagree, that is your right, but I have made my case and do not intend to get involved in rising to the bait!
Best wishes,
Jonathan
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The regular flu killed 50,000 Americans last year. We're no where near that point with C-19.
After only a month you can predict what this year will bring?
Currently, the outlook for the USA is possibly 100,000 (or more) in 2 weeks time.
And the reason we're not doing worse than we are is due to the exceptional mitigation efforts taken.
When was the economy shut down last year over influenza?
You seem to be in denial. That's very dangerous.
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After only a month you can predict what this year will bring?
Currently, the outlook for the USA is possibly 100,000 (or more) in 2 weeks time.
And the reason we're not doing worse than we are is due to the exceptional mitigation efforts taken.
When was the economy shut down last year over influenza?
You seem to be in denial. That's very dangerous.
Bart You're cherry picking my statements same as you do with Trump. I predicted the possibility of 200,000 to one million deaths.
Here's a copy of that post.
I just did my own analysis of what could be in store based on figures coming in by county throughout the US. Comparing percentage of deaths to cases, it varies significantly depending in which county. Assuming it spreads through the US everywhere and 40,000,000 are infected, anywheres from 200,000 to one million will die. Of course that's based on discovered cases. That's of course if this things continues spreading and there';s no antidote. The saving grace is if it dies out soon on it's own. My estimates would be a lot lower of the actual infected is much higher but just not realized by those doing the statistics.
Here the charts I used if you want to do your own analysis.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/29/coronavirus-heres-a-map-of-rural-counties-in-us-most-affected-by-pandemic.html
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This contribution is mainly addressed to Alan Klein. I hope that I am not considered patronising. Alan, you have written several contributions to this thread, and sometimes used the words, ‘I don’t understand.’ Can I give some comments on how the UK is tackling the issue of the pandemic and the economy. Although there are differences between our two countries there are parallels, I believe.
Can I start with some assumptions.
1. Society wants the pandemic to be time limited.
2. Currently there is no vaccine that is known to be effective and with no dire side effects.
3. The virus spreads through human interaction.
4. Comparisons have been made to seasonal flu. I think it would be fair to say that society does not want to see extra deaths, nor more people becoming ill and stopping being fully functioning members of society while ill.
5. Society does not want the health system in their country to become overwhelmed and unable to cope. This could be caused by either or both of too many patients and/or staff becoming ill and would affect all with health issues not just Covid-19.
6. To reduce the spread of the virus, human interaction has to be reduced. People cannot be relied on to do this voluntarily, so Governments have to take action.
7. Reduction in human interaction has a negative effect on the economy.
The dilemma is what governments do about reducing the negative effects on the economy and getting it up and running as soon as possible. In the UK the thinking has been roughly along these lines.
Do nothing and people will become unemployed and the number of claimants will rise, probably by a large number. Money will have to found. When it becomes time to get the economy going by relaxing restrictions, it will be a question of how quickly it can recover. If nothing is done and the money is found for the increased benefits bill, then it is thought many companies will have ceased trading. This will obviously have an effect on the economic recovery and extend the time extra benefit payments are made. An alternative is to give financial help to employers, employees, and the self-employed for companies and business to stay afloat and to cut the benefits bill. With fewer companies going broke and keeping staff on the books the economy should recover quicker. It will also mean that people will have more money in their pockets as they are not unemployed so buying will start more quickly. It is then a question of how much extra the Government has to find over the projected increased benefit bill and is it worth it to get the country back on its feet. The UK Government thinks it is, and judging by the public reaction, they think it is as well. The extra money will be found by extra borrowing, but borrowing costs are low currently.
As I wrote above, I do think that there are sufficient parallels between our two countries for these points to be made. No doubt people will disagree, that is your right, but I have made my case and do not intend to get involved in rising to the bait!
Best wishes,
Jonathan
I never said we shouldn't help businesses or workers. The scale of the bailout, however, will break the economy and make things worse. Some of the legislation is just wasteful on the face of it. I covered some of these in previous posts.
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I never said we shouldn't help businesses or workers. The scale of the bailout, however, will break the economy and make things worse. Some of the legislation is just wasteful on the face of it. I covered some of these in previous posts.
I think countries like the USA and UK will be able to act faster than the EU, because they have their own currency. Some sort of EU bureaucrat today mentioned that coronabonds would take about 3 years to be in place, whatever...
Talk about being detached from reality... I think the EU will not survive this crisis. It is telling that when Italy asked for help weeks ago, no EU country has replied. Who is helping them now? China and Russia.
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Bart You're cherry picking my statements same as you do with Trump. I predicted the possibility of 200,000 to one million deaths.
Then what on earth makes you compare Covid-19 to a seasonal flu?
It is not, in many ways.
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I think countries like the USA and UK will be able to act faster than the EU, because they have their own currency. Some sort of EU bureaucrat today mentioned that coronabonds would take about 3 years to be in place, whatever...
Talk about being detached from reality... I think the EU will not survive this crisis. It is telling that when Italy asked for help weeks ago, no EU country has replied. Who is helping them now? China and Russia.
Be thankful Portugal (correction) can't print their own money. Because America can, it's going to really screw up the US economy.
Money is not wealth. It's a store of wealth, a representation of wealth. Otherwise, every government would just print all the money they want and everyone will be rich. Currency represents the amount of productivity, the values of all goods and services a country produces. If you print more, than every dollar or Euro will be devalued in purchasing power if the productivity is not increased. Even in good times like before the virus. Since these are bad times, and productivity has declined by high amounts because so many business shut down, there's even more currency in circulation against total production making price inflation much worse.
I see on Amazon, that everything is already gone up by huge amounts. I [paid $24 for two rolls of plastic wrap probably worth $6 a month ago. (Hasn't anyone else noticed that???) That's because all that cash sitting around going after so few needed goods raises prices. People are not spending it on vacations and other toys. So it's there for the spending on soap, cleaning supplies and food.
Printing money does not help businesses. It will destroy them. More money printing causes higher prices. People have less money to spend on more frivolous things like eating out. They're spending on higher food prices, rent, and the other necessities of life. So they stop going on vacations, eating out, etc. So those businesses get hurt and fail, their employees are laid off, and the economy could tank.
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Then what on earth makes you compare Covid-19 to a seasonal flu?
It is not, in many ways.
Because it's a virus like Covid 19. There were 34 million flu cases in the US with 50,000 deaths. Covid 19 may exceed that, but it hasn't yet. We could get lucky and it will die out before that happens or are taking measure to preclude that from happening. What's wrong about hoping so many won't die? Heck, I could be one of them. :)
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Covid-19 Timeline
here is a comparison of potential fatalities examining several scenarios
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/coronavirus-deaths-will-far-outnumber-trumps-recession-deaths-144328662.html
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If anyone really believes the figures in that graph for China, hit me up. I have a bridge I really need to get off my balance sheets this quarter.
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If anyone really believes the figures in that graph for China, hit me up. I have a bridge I really need to get off my balance sheets this quarter.
This is an often repeated thought. Their initial attempt to hide the real info didn't really work very well, not for long anyway, and that was when no one was looking. There's a worldwide internet, people have cell phones, there are joint research programs between Chinese and non-Chinese institutions. All I'm saying is that the size of conspiracy that would be required to sustain a lie this big is a bit too large for me to swallow without a lot more proof. And I don't mean online suppositions, I mean hard date from the CIA and other intelligence gathering entities. I would hope that they know a lot more than you or me.
A friend's husband does research at an institution in northern China. He flew back via Shanghai a couple of weeks ago. The situation there is such that some people think there is a higher risk of infection shopping for groceries in Ottawa. I know this is anecdotal data.
Your assumptions need some backup, is all I'm saying. In any case, at this time, what is or is not happening in Chinese government statistics is pretty small potatoes compared to what is happening in New York, Mississippi (still no stay-at-home directives last time I heard), Oklahoma, north Florida, with disease spread probably still to come in Chicago, Atlanta, etc. If you want to be suspicious about China's numbers, I get it, they'll need corroboration before the issue is put to bed, but it is kind of a side issue right now.
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This is an often repeated thought. Their initial attempt to hide the real info didn't really work very well, not for long anyway, and that was when no one was looking. There's a worldwide internet, people have cell phones, there are joint research programs between Chinese and non-Chinese institutions. All I'm saying is that the size of conspiracy that would be required to sustain a lie this big is a bit too large for me to swallow without a lot more proof. And I don't mean online suppositions, I mean hard date from the CIA and other intelligence gathering entities. I would hope that they know a lot more than you or me.
A friend's husband does research at an institution in northern China. He flew back via Shanghai a couple of weeks ago. The situation there is such that some people think there is a higher risk of infection shopping for groceries in Ottawa. I know this is anecdotal data.
Your assumptions need some backup, is all I'm saying. In any case, at this time, what is or is not happening in Chinese government statistics is pretty small potatoes compared to what is happening in New York, Mississippi (still no stay-at-home directives last time I heard), Oklahoma, north Florida, with disease spread probably still to come in Chicago, Atlanta, etc. If you want to be suspicious about China's numbers, I get it, they'll need corroboration before the issue is put to bed, but it is kind of a side issue right now.
That does not stop the Chinese government from publishing false data and jailing those who report otherwise. And some of those in the media fail for it hook, line and sinker. To think that China has less cases then the USA is foolish, and using the WHO, of which it is pretty clear has become a shrill for China, data means any chart you put out will be false.
As of yesterday, many in the media were reporting China's death toll to be around 5000, the official Chinese number. However, at least 48,000 urns have been given out in Wuhan alone since this began.
So I take these graphs with a grain of salt when they show official Chinese figures.
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The government will be sending out recovery checks soon, a good thing IMO. But it seems that Trump wants his signature on the checks instead of the usual treasury secretary (or whoever). Could there be better example of his pettiness and egotism?
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trump-wants-his-signature-to-appear-on-coronavirus-stimulus-checks-2020-03-28
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The government will be sending out recovery checks soon, a good thing IMO. But it seems that Trump wants his signature on the checks instead of the usual treasury secretary (or whoever). Could there be better example of his pettiness and egotism?
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trump-wants-his-signature-to-appear-on-coronavirus-stimulus-checks-2020-03-28
I also want the pen he is signing it with my check.
P.S. But in all seriousness, the vast majority of payments will come via direct deposit, not checks.
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I also want the pen he is signing it with my check.
P.S. But in all seriousness, the vast majority of payments will come via direct deposit, not checks.
I don't think you will get a pen, but I read that even for checks that are direct deposited, the IRS is sending written acknowledgements of such deposits by mail. I think that is the mechanism Trump is using to get his signature out to recipients. They will probably have a picture of Trump too. You'll have to buy your own frame.
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This is an often repeated thought. Their initial attempt to hide the real info didn't really work very well, not for long anyway, and that was when no one was looking. There's a worldwide internet, people have cell phones, there are joint research programs between Chinese and non-Chinese institutions. All I'm saying is that the size of conspiracy that would be required to sustain a lie this big is a bit too large for me to swallow without a lot more proof. And I don't mean online suppositions, I mean hard date from the CIA and other intelligence gathering entities. I would hope that they know a lot more than you or me.
A friend's husband does research at an institution in northern China. He flew back via Shanghai a couple of weeks ago. The situation there is such that some people think there is a higher risk of infection shopping for groceries in Ottawa. I know this is anecdotal data.
Your assumptions need some backup, is all I'm saying. In any case, at this time, what is or is not happening in Chinese government statistics is pretty small potatoes compared to what is happening in New York, Mississippi (still no stay-at-home directives last time I heard), Oklahoma, north Florida, with disease spread probably still to come in Chicago, Atlanta, etc. If you want to be suspicious about China's numbers, I get it, they'll need corroboration before the issue is put to bed, but it is kind of a side issue right now.
We are also seeing China sending supplies along with medical staff to different countries to help out. Does one really think China would be doing this if they had rampant spread in their own country?
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... even for checks that are direct deposited, the IRS is sending written acknowledgements of such deposits by mail...
All my tax refunds were via direct deposit, and I never received any written acknowledgment.
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As of yesterday, many in the media were reporting China's death toll to be around 5000, the official Chinese number. However, at least 48,000 urns have been given out in Wuhan alone since this began.
And you know this to be true because you read it somewhere on the net? :o
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We are also seeing China sending supplies along with medical staff to different countries to help out. Does one really think China would be doing this if they had rampant spread in their own country?
Yes!, and don't forget to mention many countries are turning them away due to poor quality. Maybe they are keeping the better stuff for themselves? ???
China is trying to control the narrative right now, and since they have no problem welding their people into their houses, or jailing those who speak out against the government, I see no reason not to believe they would deny their citizens medical supplies just to get good press.
It really is amazing how many people even on here fall for their propaganda.
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And you know this to be true because you read it somewhere on the net? :o
It's been reported in a few different major outlets.
Additionally, there have been others who have noted that the creameries in Wuhan have a max capacity per day and have been burning bodies non-stop. If you multiply this capacity by the total number of days they have been active, you get around 45,000 bodies having been cream mated. These are from separate sources.
On top of that, more sources have been reporting that China is paying people for their silence. I think the amount is around 5000 yen per family.
You really need to be a fool to believe any info coming from the Chinese government as of now, especially after how many known lies they published in the beginning of this. And to believe any info on China coming from the WHO you would need to be equally foolish. They were the ones telling the world in the middle of January that this disease did not have community spread capabilities, taking the word of the Chinese without sending a single person to Wuhan.
You really think they just throw out all foreign journalists because of a spat they have with Trump? No, they used that as an excuse so they could continue the coverup.
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It's been reported in a few different major outlets.
Additionally, there have been others who have noted that the creameries in Wuhan have a max capacity per day and have been burning bodies non-stop. If you multiply this capacity by the total number of days they have been active, you get around 45,000 bodies having been cream mated. These are from separate sources.
On top of that, more sources have been reporting that China is paying people for their silence. I think the amount is around 5000 yen per family.
You really need to be a fool to believe any info coming from the Chinese government as of now, especially after how many known lies they published in the beginning of this. And to believe any info on China coming from the WHO you would need to be equally foolish. They were the ones telling the world in the middle of January that this disease did not have community spread capabilities, taking the word of the Chinese without sending a single person to Wuhan.
You really think they just throw out all foreign journalists because of a spat they have with Trump? No, they used that as an excuse so they could continue the coverup.
Yep...keep reading all the internet junk...it's all true...and keep believing what you hear from your own government...that's all true too.
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Wuhan residents estimate region's coronavirus death toll much higher than reported (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/wuhan-residents-estimate-regions-coronavirus-death-toll-much-higher-than-reported)
Report of Urns Stacked at Wuhan Funeral Homes Raises Questions About the Real Coronavirus Death Toll in China (https://time.com/5811222/wuhan-coronavirus-death-toll/)
The articles above show that the estimate is that 42K to 47K urns have been delivered and handed out during this. The Newsweek article goes a little further by subtracting the historical death numbers from years prior for the same period and gets around 26K corona deaths.
This is a drastically higher number then the sub 3000 China is putting out.
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Yep...keep reading all the internet junk...it's all true...and keep believing what you hear from your own government...that's all true too.
And you keep on believing a communist government that has already been caught lying several times about this one event already.
I'll let others decide who is more ignorant.
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So China is perhaps not being honest of its death toll from the coronavirus. This is not surprising, so I am not sure why you are all worked up about it.
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So China is perhaps not being honest of its death toll from the coronavirus. This is not surprising, so I am not sure why you are all worked up about it.
I was just pointing out that that graph is probably not 100% accurate since it relies on the official Chinese data. This should have been at least stated on it somewhere.
For instance, if you look up drinking rates on a per state basis in the USA, many accurate graphs or tables make sure to list Utah's high mormon population to clarify why that state is so low compared to the rest. I would expect a similar note on these graphs.
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And you keep on believing a communist government that has already been caught lying several times about this one event already.
I'll let others decide who is more ignorant.
And your commander in chief has never lied...you really believe everything they tell you? Well all I can say is good luck.
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The government will be sending out recovery checks soon, a good thing IMO. But it seems that Trump wants his signature on the checks instead of the usual treasury secretary (or whoever). Could there be better example of his pettiness and egotism?
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trump-wants-his-signature-to-appear-on-coronavirus-stimulus-checks-2020-03-28
It's for the election not pettiness or egotism. Obama did similar things during the last economic crisis in 2009. Some Democrat politician recently said, "Never let a crisis go to waste." Politicians are all the same. Trump's crassness is just more obvious. As a non politician, he never learned how to be smooth about these things. He oversells himself like the marketeer he is.
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I was just pointing out that that graph is probably not 100% accurate since it relies on the official Chinese data. This should have been at least stated on it somewhere.
For instance, if you look up drinking rates on a per state basis in the USA, many accurate graphs or tables make sure to list Utah's high mormon population to clarify why that state is so low compared to the rest. I would expect a similar note on these graphs.
It's kind of a pointless discussion, I guess, because I don't know what's actually happening. I don't doubt the Chinese government's wanting to hide things, it would not surprise anyone. But you'd think that if they were trying to hide the burning of 48,000 bodies they'd have enough sense to prevent the shipment of urns to the area. I mean, even I would think of that.
And this has been asked before in other contexts, but why is it that these news sites are trustworthy when they tell you what YOU want to hear but purveyors of fake news otherwise. Until they're confirmed by others, with real pictures, I'm skeptical. I'm not skeptical because I have faith in communist governments, I'm skeptical because hiding a conspiracy this big is too big a pill for me to swallow. In my experience you can't get 3 people in a room to agree on the colour of the wall when they're all looking at it in the same light.
How could China fail at hiding the start of the infection but suddenly be successful at hiding a much bigger story now when far more people know about it?
I'm open to the idea that something might be going on, but I'm not convinced it's what you say.
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New plan to defeat the virus.
Belarus’ president dismisses coronavirus risk, encourages citizens to drink vodka and visit saunas
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/31/coronavirus-belarus-urges-citizens-to-drink-vodka-visit-saunas.html
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And your commander in chief has never lied...you really believe everything they tell you? Well all I can say is good luck.
Annnnnnnd .... I dont!
But then again, I'm not the one insisting that we believe a communist government that has a history of lying.
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It's kind of a pointless discussion, I guess, because I don't know what's actually happening. I don't doubt the Chinese government's wanting to hide things, it would not surprise anyone. But you'd think that if they were trying to hide the burning of 48,000 bodies they'd have enough sense to prevent the shipment of urns to the area. I mean, even I would think of that.
And this has been asked before in other contexts, but why is it that these news sites are trustworthy when they tell you what YOU want to hear but purveyors of fake news otherwise. Until they're confirmed by others, with real pictures, I'm skeptical. I'm not skeptical because I have faith in communist governments, I'm skeptical because hiding a conspiracy this big is too big a pill for me to swallow. In my experience you can't get 3 people in a room to agree on the colour of the wall when they're all looking at it in the same light.
How could China fail at hiding the start of the infection but suddenly be successful at hiding a much bigger story now when far more people know about it?
I'm open to the idea that something might be going on, but I'm not convinced it's what you say.
I've said awhile ago they have an antidote.
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Annnnnnnd .... I dont!
But then again, I'm not the one insisting that we believe a communist government that has a history of lying.
The ChiComs never told us the truth about what happened to that guy in front of the tank who was never heard from again.
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It's kind of a pointless discussion, I guess, because I don't know what's actually happening. I don't doubt the Chinese government's wanting to hide things, it would not surprise anyone. But you'd think that if they were trying to hide the burning of 48,000 bodies they'd have enough sense to prevent the shipment of urns to the area. I mean, even I would think of that.
And this has been asked before in other contexts, but why is it that these news sites are trustworthy when they tell you what YOU want to hear but purveyors of fake news otherwise. Until they're confirmed by others, with real pictures, I'm skeptical. I'm not skeptical because I have faith in communist governments, I'm skeptical because hiding a conspiracy this big is too big a pill for me to swallow. In my experience you can't get 3 people in a room to agree on the colour of the wall when they're all looking at it in the same light.
How could China fail at hiding the start of the infection but suddenly be successful at hiding a much bigger story now when far more people know about it?
I'm open to the idea that something might be going on, but I'm not convinced it's what you say.
I believe you have me confused with someone else when it comes to insisting on calling all news fake news.
But anyway, of course it is hard to keep things a secret when so many would be able to out you. But this has not stopped them in the past for trying. Remember they lied about when they knew about the virus and they are still trying to sell this lie, even though all reporting states otherwise.
So I am sure when the real story comes out on the real death figures, they will still try and continue to sell this one, and even get WHO to help them out.
The Chinese know that controlling the narrative often produces the results you want, and they will continue this game until we call them out on it.
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The ChiComs never told us the truth about what happened to that guy in front of the tank who was never heard from again.
They also never told us what happened to the Panchen Lama they abducted. When the Dalia Lama dies, I would not be surprised if they have their faux Panchen Lama pick a Chinese friendly replacement.
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The ChiComs never told us the truth about what happened to that guy in front of the tank who was never heard from again.
I am shocked, absolutely shocked.
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The regular flu killed 50,000 Americans last year. We're no where near that point with C-19. I was hoping that the new virus wouldn't be as bad. Are you hoping it'll be worse?
The CDC estimated that 32,400 people died from flu and complications in the 2018-19 flue season. Numbers for the 2019-2020 season are not yet known.
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The CDC estimated that 32,400 people died from flu and complications in the 2018-19 flue season. Numbers for the 2019-2020 season are not yet known.
Come on John. Don't let the facts get in the way of the narrative.
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They also never told us what happened to the Panchen Lama they abducted. When the Dalia Lama dies, I would not be surprised if they have their faux Panchen Lama pick a Chinese friendly replacement.
Can you perhaps try, just try, to keep at least slightly on point?
Jeremy
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Yes!, and don't forget to mention many countries are turning them away due to poor quality. Maybe they are keeping the better stuff for themselves? ???
China is trying to control the narrative right now, and since they have no problem welding their people into their houses, or jailing those who speak out against the government, I see no reason not to believe they would deny their citizens medical supplies just to get good press.
It really is amazing how many people even on here fall for their propaganda.
I could not care less whether China are lying or not. Even with their official numbers, it is possible to study the spreading rate of the virus, and what are the efficient manners of containing it, plus how long the thing will most likely last.
The only case I know of "bad supplies" was a lot of 30,000 tests that the spanish gov. bought from a chinese company - who was not certified, something that would have been easy to check, had the spanish gov. carried out due diligence.
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Come on John. Don't let the facts get in the way of the narrative.
The number of deaths for 2017-2018 were 61,000, higher than my 50,000 reference number. I was using 50,000 as an average estimate.The point is the covid number hasn't yet gotten anywhere near that close. You're the one using facts to get in the way of the truth rather than looking at them honestly.
CDC Estimate: 45 Million Flu Cases, 61,000 Flu-Associated Deaths in 2017-2018 U.S. Flu Season
https://cnsnews.com/article/international/michael-w-chapman/cdc-estimate-45-million-flu-cases-61000-flu-associated
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I could not care less whether China are lying or not. Even with their official numbers, it is possible to study the spreading rate of the virus, and what are the efficient manners of containing it, plus how long the thing will most likely last.
The only case I know of "bad supplies" was a lot of 30,000 tests that the spanish gov. bought from a chinese company - who was not certified, something that would have been easy to check, had the spanish gov. carried out due diligence.
Trump was right that we have hurt ourselves by contracting out all our manufacturing to China. We're now all paying the penalty for turning our factories over to them. That's something he's complained about for 4 years and before. Yet, all the naysayers, media, and his political opponents were the ones who laughed at him claiming he's hurting our economy. So now it's shown he was right with the tariffs all along.
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A few thoughts.
1. I do believe the Chinese are lying about their death toll -- it simply came down too quickly. A death curve is a curve. It doesn't go up and then disappear, it goes up and then comes back down, with lots of new people being infected on the way down. The Chinese seem to be reporting that the virus simply evaporated. So, I think they are lying. Trump tried to lie (15 and will soon be zero) but we have a free press and they pointed out that he was full of shit. The Chinese press can't really do that. The problem all governments face is that people tend to blame the current administration (of whatever country) for events that they really can't control. If a meteor hit Arkansas, Trump would get blamed. The same is true in China, but in China, the government has much more ability to quash public reporting and control statistics to make itself look good.
2. Comparisons to flu are irrelevant in most ways. With flu, which can certainly kill lots of people, those deaths are largely unpreventable after the flu strikes. Hospitals have enough space and ventilators to treat the flu, and health workers generally get flu shots and so aren't endangered by it. With Covid 19, we're facing the problem of what you might call *excess* deaths -- deaths that would have been preventable if we had a vaccine, and if we had hospital facilities capable of dealing with the influx of patients. Also, Covid-19 engenders panic, because there is no Tami-Flu treatment, and there is no vaccine that rational people can get for themselves to prevent the flu.So, it's fundamentally different than flu, both in it's medical and social aspects.
3. Trump has made a major mistake by continuing his press conferences (in my opinion.) He is currently getting a small boost in polling numbers, but the election is not here yet. Here is what's going to happen: all of his many mis-statements and on-screen blunders are being happily compiled by Dem political managers, and this fall, with maybe 100,000-200,000 dead, they will be played relentlessly. An opinion column from somebody that I read in the past couple of days said that Trump really lives for ratings numbers, going back to his days as a TV show host. He loves this short-term boost, so he keeps jumping in front of the cameras; IMHO, he will live to regret it.
4. Americans will show some serious shock when the deaths climb past 1,000 a day, and it's getting close to that now.
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Trump was right that we have hurt ourselves by contracting out all our manufacturing to China. We're now all paying the penalty for turning our factories over to them. That's something he's complained about for 4 years and before. Yet, all the naysayers, media, and his political opponents were the ones who laughed at him claiming he's hurting our economy. So now it's shown he was right with the tariffs all along.
Come on man it's consumers like you that want cheap goods from China. You line up at the Wallmarts of the world buying them in droves. Do you think for one second America can make those goods at a price the 99% of citizens can afford?
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Trump was right that we have hurt ourselves by contracting out all our manufacturing to China. We're now all paying the penalty for turning our factories over to them. That's something he's complained about for 4 years and before. Yet, all the naysayers, media, and his political opponents were the ones who laughed at him claiming he's hurting our economy. So now it's shown he was right with the tariffs all along.
I thought Trump said that it was the hospitals' fault that they didn't have enough PPE and ventilators. I am not sure you can blame the Chinese for the hospitals not buying enough stuff.
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Can you perhaps try, just try, to keep at least slightly on point?
Jeremy
My bad.
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A few thoughts.
1. I do believe the Chinese are lying about their death toll -- it simply came down too quickly. A death curve is a curve. It doesn't go up and then disappear, it goes up and then comes back down, with lots of new people being infected on the way down. The Chinese seem to be reporting that the virus simply evaporated. So, I think they are lying. Trump tried to lie (15 and will soon be zero) but we have a free press and they pointed out that he was full of shit. The Chinese press can't really do that. The problem all governments face is that people tend to blame the current administration (of whatever country) for events that they really can't control. If a meteor hit Arkansas, Trump would get blamed. The same is true in China, but in China, the government has much more ability to quash public reporting and control statistics to make itself look good.
2. Comparisons to flu are irrelevant in most ways. With flu, which can certainly kill lots of people, those deaths are largely unpreventable after the flu strikes. Hospitals have enough space and ventilators to treat the flu, and health workers generally get flu shots and so aren't endangered by it. With Covid 19, we're facing the problem of what you might call *excess* deaths -- deaths that would have been preventable if we had a vaccine, and if we had hospital facilities capable of dealing with the influx of patients. Also, Covid-19 engenders panic, because there is no Tami-Flu treatment, and there is no vaccine that rational people can get for themselves to prevent the flu.So, it's fundamentally different than flu, both in it's medical and social aspects.
3. Trump has made a major mistake by continuing his press conferences (in my opinion.) He is currently getting a small boost in polling numbers, but the election is not here yet. Here is what's going to happen: all of his many mis-statements and on-screen blunders are being happily compiled by Dem political managers, and this fall, with maybe 100,000-200,000 dead, they will be played relentlessly. An opinion column from somebody that I read in the past couple of days said that Trump really lives for ratings numbers, going back to his days as a TV show host. He loves this short-term boost, so he keeps jumping in front of the cameras; IMHO, he will live to regret it.
4. Americans will show some serious shock when the deaths climb past 1,000 a day, and it's getting close to that now.
Of course flu is different in many ways. But the point I was making is that no one blinks about the flu even though tens of millions get infected every year and 100,000 died in a two year period. Life went on. No social isolation. No shut down of the economy. I'm not saying we shouldn't be doing what we're doing. It does seem like it's helping a lot. It's just that we shouldn't lose sight that viruses are with us every year. I have a feeling that if this happens next year, we will handle it in different ways but not as extreme. I could be wrong, but I hope and most people should hope I'm right. The country can't stand another bout of this next year medically or economically.
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I thought Trump said that it was the hospitals' fault that they didn't have enough PPE and ventilators. I am not sure you can blame the Chinese for the hospitals not buying enough stuff.
It's true that hospital and local, governments should have bought more ventilators and not blame Trump. But to my point, had we had factories making these things, we would have been in a better position to produce them for ourselves working double time. Now we're dependent on China. We may see Congress institute laws that require certain products be produced in America just like much military hardware is already produced in America. Things like ventilators and medicine. It's crazy that China produces 90% of our medicine. Even if just a portion, let's say 25%, is produced here would go a long way in emergencies.
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A few thoughts.
1. I do believe the Chinese are lying about their death toll -- it simply came down too quickly. A death curve is a curve. It doesn't go up and then disappear, it goes up and then comes back down, with lots of new people being infected on the way down. The Chinese seem to be reporting that the virus simply evaporated. So, I think they are lying. Trump tried to lie (15 and will soon be zero) but we have a free press and they pointed out that he was full of shit. The Chinese press can't really do that. The problem all governments face is that people tend to blame the current administration (of whatever country) for events that they really can't control. If a meteor hit Arkansas, Trump would get blamed. The same is true in China, but in China, the government has much more ability to quash public reporting and control statistics to make itself look good.
2. Comparisons to flu are irrelevant in most ways. With flu, which can certainly kill lots of people, those deaths are largely unpreventable after the flu strikes. Hospitals have enough space and ventilators to treat the flu, and health workers generally get flu shots and so aren't endangered by it. With Covid 19, we're facing the problem of what you might call *excess* deaths -- deaths that would have been preventable if we had a vaccine, and if we had hospital facilities capable of dealing with the influx of patients. Also, Covid-19 engenders panic, because there is no Tami-Flu treatment, and there is no vaccine that rational people can get for themselves to prevent the flu.So, it's fundamentally different than flu, both in it's medical and social aspects.
3. Trump has made a major mistake by continuing his press conferences (in my opinion.) He is currently getting a small boost in polling numbers, but the election is not here yet. Here is what's going to happen: all of his many mis-statements and on-screen blunders are being happily compiled by Dem political managers, and this fall, with maybe 100,000-200,000 dead, they will be played relentlessly. An opinion column from somebody that I read in the past couple of days said that Trump really lives for ratings numbers, going back to his days as a TV show host. He loves this short-term boost, so he keeps jumping in front of the cameras; IMHO, he will live to regret it.
4. Americans will show some serious shock when the deaths climb past 1,000 a day, and it's getting close to that now.
Regarding item 3, you seem to be taking the position of all the anti-Trump media. Of course they don't want him doing these daily news conferences. His likeability polls are at his highest. In the end, if the disease is gone and the economy is on its way to healing too, the voters will give him credit. All the accusations against him will be passed off as political pablum.
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Come on John. Don't let the facts get in the way of the narrative.
Why don't you try the same?
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html
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Regarding item 3, you seem to be taking the position of all the anti-Trump media. Of course they don't want him doing these daily news conferences. His likeability polls are at his highest. In the end, if the disease is gone and the economy is on its way to healing too, the voters will give him credit. All the accusations against him will be passed off as political pablum.
I don't disagree with what you say. What I am saying is that he's said so many stupid, short-sighted things during these press conferences, that the Dems are building up a pretty incredible cache of ammo to use if it winds up that we do have 100,000 or 200,000 dead. Trump's biggest problem is that he can't keep his mouth shut. The column I read said that Trump needs these short-term feel-good boosts, and always has...but what is working now, when we only have a few thousand dead, might not work so well when we have 200,000 dead. If it turns out that doesn't happens, if the Covid virus goes away like a bad dream, and everything is booming again in November, I suspect he'll have a decent chance of reelection, because then his many stupidities won't play so well. But if the virus is still here, and worse, he's toast.
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I don't disagree with what you say. What I am saying is that he's said so many stupid, short-sighted things during these press conferences, that the Dems are building up a pretty incredible cache of ammo to use if it winds up that we do have 100,000 or 200,000 dead. Trump's biggest problem is that he can't keep his mouth shut. The column I read said that Trump needs these short-term feel-good boosts, and always has...but what is working now, when we only have a few thousand dead, might not work so well when we have 200,000 dead. If it turns out that doesn't happens, if the Covid virus goes away like a bad dream, and everything is booming again in November, I suspect he'll have a decent chance of reelection, because then his many stupidities won't play so well. But if the virus is still here, and worse, he's toast.
Yet Joe Biden saying we did not need to close the border and that doing so was xenophobic wont have any effect on him?
LOL.
This whole thing is a Cath-22 politically for both sides. If either side decides to go down the negative and start mud slinging, the other will have more then enough to do equal damage. It will all just break even with the voters.
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It's true that hospital and local, governments should have bought more ventilators and not blame Trump.
Hospitals and state and local governments were not blaming Trump for anything other than not quickly releasing equipment and supplies available for just this purpose in the Strategic National Reserve. Apparently, they were not appreciative enough. Fortunately, hospitals and state and local officials have realized they have to kiss Trump's ass, are now doing so, and some of the equipment and supplies has been released. They say some of the patients in ICUs said they too would kiss Trump's ass in exchange for a ventilator. Unfortunately, they died before they got a chance to do so.
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Alan said "The number of deaths for 2017-2018 were 61,000, higher than my 50,000 reference number. I was using 50,000 as an average estimate.The point is the covid number hasn't yet gotten anywhere near that close. You're the one using facts to get in the way of the truth rather than looking at them honestly.
CDC Estimate: 45 Million Flu Cases, 61,000 Flu-Associated Deaths in 2017-2018 U.S. Flu Season
https://cnsnews.com/article/international/michael-w-chapman/cdc-estimate-45-million-flu-cases-61000-flu-associated"
Slobodan said:
"Why don't you try the same?" And posted a cut from this page: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/index.html
The page cut showed the same 61,000 deaths references by Alan.
Alan and Slobbodan are cherry picking, in response to a post I made pointing out that the numbers of deaths from flu, LAST YEAR, were estimated at 32,400.
In Alan's original post, he said there were 50,000 deaths LAST YEAR. There weren't. There were an estimated 32,400.
There were, as he indicated in his second post, in reply to mine, 61000 the year before that, but I didn't look at the year before that, because he said LAST YEAR.
Slobodan then followed up with a screen shot highlighting the 61,000 deaths in 2017-18, which is, in fact, the CDC estimate for that year, but not LAST YEAR.
As is happens, the 61,000 number for 2017-18 is the highest number of deaths in the last ten. (We don't yet know the number of this year, but this year's flu has been regarded as reasonably mild.)
The numbers from the CDC site: 2010-11, 37000; 2011-12, 12000; 2012-13, 43000; 2013-14, 38000; 2014-15, 51,000, 2015-16, 23000; 2016-17, 38000; 2017-18, 61000; 2018-19, 34157.
For that period of time, the average deaths per year from flu, even including that outlier of 61,000 deaths, is a bit more than 37,000 deaths. Alan said he was just using 50,000 as a sort of average, which it isn't.
I don't mind the cherry-picking so much, because this thread is rife with it, but I somewhat resented Alan's comment that, "You're the one using facts to get in the way of the truth rather than looking at them honestly."
If you just don't like numbers, say so, but don't make up fake news based on cherry-picking.
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Yet Joe Biden saying we did not need to close the border and that doing so was xenophobic wont have any effect on him?
Who in the hell would want to cross the border into the US these days?
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Who in the hell would want to cross the border into the US these days?
Yawn.
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Yawn.
Exactly...I believe the rats are even fleeing the York.
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Exactly...I believe the rats are even fleeing the York.
There's enough of them. Let them live in the country for a few months and they should be quite tasty.
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How was it imported into the US? Italy?
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My sister-in-law just sent her Italian exchange student home early. They went back and forth on how to react but in the end her parents in Italy were afraid for her safety in the USA.
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I have two local friends who were flown to the ICU in Grand Junction and it's not looking very good for either of them.
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The infection rate in New York is slowly coming down, but nationwide it is still growing and new hot nests are appearing.
(https://ei.marketwatch.com/Multimedia/2020/03/30/Photos/NS/MW-ID366_US_Wor_20200330122301_NS.png?uuid=ba08d2c8-72a2-11ea-a34d-9c8e992d421e)
1. U.S. cases are growing the fastest
“The U.S. [now has] the largest number of cases among all countries, while the growth rate of U.S. cases is now the highest among all countries we follow ... and is accelerating faster than Italy when adjusted for the start of the respective outbreaks.”
2. U.S. mortality is not slowing despite social distancing
“Mortality is increasing at an exponential rate in the U.S. at a slightly lower slope than Italy prior to its lockdown. While mortality will lag new cases, other countries have been able to slow from exponential growth after lockdowns.”
3. New cases are growing faster than testing capacity
“Rates of testing positivity continue to trend higher across the U.S. as testing rates lag other countries and cases are growing faster than tests, suggesting the U.S. continues to lack enough testing capacity.”
4. New ‘hot spots’ are exhibiting growth above other regions
“Case rates for emerging U.S. ‘hot spots’ are growing at rates faster than all countries or U.S. states. This suggests new U.S. cases could continue to accelerate.”
5. U.S. social-distancing measures remain less strict than those of other countries
“The U.S. has more limited quarantine measures compared to Italy or China.”
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/5-reasons-why-the-us-spread-of-covid-19-could-be-worse-than-italy-2020-03-30
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The Covid patient's experience, written by a NY ICU doctor:
https://www.reddit.com/r/medicine/comments/fsfka7/3_days_of_inpatient_care_in_new_york_the_story_of/
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Just one more tidbit in the interests of flogging a dead horse. I asked a friend who regularly travels to China about the 48,000 urns thing. Turns out he had been reading up on these interweb stories himself a lot lately because he also has a lot of time on his hands these days, and since his wife is Chinese he has become more curious about the region. He replied that 57,000 people died in Wuhan province in 2019, so it may not be so unusual to have so many urns in inventory. I don't know how many died in 2018 or 2017. My only point here is that a couple of rumours and news stories do not the truth make.
As I said earlier, could China be fudging numbers, well sure, what could be easier to believe. And the abrupt decrease in cases/deaths is suspect. But it's precisely because it's easy to believe that they're lying that we should examine things a bit more closely.
Anyway, I'm sure there's someone at Langley who could clear this up. :)
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Who in the hell would want to cross the border into the US these days?
They'll want to build a wall
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I have two local friends who were flown to the ICU in Grand Junction and it's not looking very good for either of them.
I hope they recover fully.
Curious, how old?
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I hope they recover fully.
Curious, how old?
Thanks. One in his mid 50s and one in his 70s.
The older guy used to have a younger wife my age who I knew from high school. She passed from cancer maybe 10 years ago.
I feel really bad for their daughter. She will probably be ok but she has had to face so many harsh realities already.
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They'll want to build a wall
A dome is more like it.
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A dome is more like it.
Rough time in geometry?
That would only work if the country is shaped like a circle.
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Yikes, my home county is #6 (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/29/coronavirus-heres-a-map-of-rural-counties-in-us-most-affected-by-pandemic.html?fbclid=IwAR07wAJ6Eom4EzpVIn9NAInRvWmwi2_4aLeoEJAp8DeKolU0K5zrjmSGIWQ) in the rate of confirmed cases. :(
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Rough time in geometry?
That would only work if the country is shaped like a circle.
Well unless you build a wall to 39,000 feet...it sure ain't stopping plane loads of people invading the US of A.
Surely you can stretch your imagination a tiny bit to see what I was saying. ::)
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Well unless you build a wall to 39,000 feet...it sure ain't stopping plane loads of people invading the US of A.
Surely you can stretch your imagination a tiny bit to see what I was saying. ::)
Perhaps, yes in fantasy, but domes become structurally unstable if they are not circular. 8)
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Perhaps, yes in fantasy, but domes become structurally unstable if they are not circular. 8)
Well isn't that where the idea of building a wall to keep people out came from...someone's fantasy?
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Well isn't that where the idea of building a wall to keep people out came from...someone's fantasy?
I always thought it was history. How many cities in Europe still have their medieval walls?
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I always thought it was history. How many cities in Europe still have their medieval walls?
Surely today's society has progressed passed the medieval times. At least one hopes so...on second thought...maybe not all societies.
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Surely today's society has progressed passed the medieval times. At least one hopes so...on second thought...maybe not all societies.
If the shutdown shuts down the food supply lines, you'll get to see exactly how far, or not at all, we have come.
Fortunately I have about 85 lb. of cheese, so I should be good for a while in case.
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I guess if you want the press to take something seriously, you really need to get a Democrat to say it.
People are stealing masks and other medical equipment from hospitals, New York Gov. Cuomo says (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/06/people-are-stealing-face-masks-from-local-hospitals-gov-cuomo-says.html?fbclid=IwAR1Tid1pTjpkM0BHv-qgN7Veo-pPzA8fc91pmLfrZy6VBZaE-TzEgR0vMTI)
Meanwhile, yesterday's news.
De Blasio calls Trump’s claims of stolen hospital supplies ‘insulting’ (https://nypost.com/2020/03/30/de-blasio-calls-trumps-claims-of-stolen-hospital-supplies-insulting/)
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I guess if you want the press to take something seriously, you really need to get a Democrat to say it.
People are stealing masks and other medical equipment from hospitals, New York Gov. Cuomo says (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/06/people-are-stealing-face-masks-from-local-hospitals-gov-cuomo-says.html?fbclid=IwAR1Tid1pTjpkM0BHv-qgN7Veo-pPzA8fc91pmLfrZy6VBZaE-TzEgR0vMTI)
Meanwhile, yesterday's news.
De Blasio calls Trump’s claims of stolen hospital supplies ‘insulting’ (https://nypost.com/2020/03/30/de-blasio-calls-trumps-claims-of-stolen-hospital-supplies-insulting/)
I haven't been very impressed with De Blasio's handling of the situation. It is hard to move past an ill considered trip to the gym.
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I haven't been very impressed with De Blasio's handling of the situation.
Well, yes, I would certainly agree. I think most politicians at this moment do not warrant criticisms, including both Trump and Cuomo. It is kind of hard to plan for something like this.
De Blasio though, he deserves to be criticized in the moment.
However, it was not just De Blasio. Trump was beat up in the press yesterday for saying the same thing Cuomo said today. Another example of their hypocrisy and why, since this started, the press is the sole institution people's trust in has decreased.
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If the shutdown shuts down the food supply lines, you'll get to see exactly how far, or not at all, we have come.
Fortunately I have about 85 lb. of cheese, so I should be good for a while in case.
Why do you feel the food supply will be shut down. I haven't seen any indications of any food supply problems. I've seen idiots buying toilet paper by the truck loads...that's not a supply problem...that's a stupidity problem.
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Just one more tidbit in the interests of flogging a dead horse. I asked a friend who regularly travels to China about the 48,000 urns thing. Turns out he had been reading up on these interweb stories himself a lot lately because he also has a lot of time on his hands these days, and since his wife is Chinese he has become more curious about the region. He replied that 57,000 people died in Wuhan province in 2019, so it may not be so unusual to have so many urns in inventory. I don't know how many died in 2018 or 2017. My only point here is that a couple of rumours and news stories do not the truth make.
As I said earlier, could China be fudging numbers, well sure, what could be easier to believe. And the abrupt decrease in cases/deaths is suspect. But it's precisely because it's easy to believe that they're lying that we should examine things a bit more closely.
Anyway, I'm sure there's someone at Langley who could clear this up. :)
On another forum I belong to, a doctor in a fire prone area was commenting on how much difficulty they are having treating the respiratory aspect of this. They have the training and the state of the art equipment for breathing issues, and treating COVID-19 victims is difficult for them. He said that he just cant believe China only had 3000 death when they were just as unprepared with very old or antiquated equipment.
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Why do you feel the food supply will be shut down. I haven't seen any indications of any food supply problems. I've seen idiots buying toilet paper by the truck loads...that's not a supply problem...that's a stupidity problem.
Well I certainly agree with the stupidity part of your assessment, and as of now there are no food supply issues here.
However, there was a run, borderline riot, on a food drive yesterday near me. So, even though the supply chains are up and running, all it takes is a little more stupidity and the right spark to cause a panic.
I have no feelings of grander that we as people have evolved past our prior savage versions. We are merely wealthy and can afford not to be, yet the vail of civilization can blow off easier then we think. Take that wealth away, and it wont be long before we succumb to the wild.
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Well I certainly agree with the stupidity part of your assessment, and as of now there are no food supply issues here.
However, there was a run, borderline riot, on a food drive yesterday near me. So, even though the supply chains are up and running, all it takes is a little more stupidity and the right spark to cause a panic.
I have no feelings of grander that we as people have evolved past our prior savage versions. We are merely wealthy and can afford not to be, yet the vail of civilization can blow off easier then we think. Take that wealth away, and it wont be long before we succumb to the wild.
This is where strong leadership plays how a society deals with catastrophes. History is littered with great leadership from people at the top that saw their societies through troubled times. I know here in Canada we are getting the same message from all levels of government as well as the medical experts. I see no political maneuvering...i fact the various political parties are all in sync. We have out Prime Minister addressing the nation daily with the same message as our province premiers...same message as our health officials, same message as our mayors. No fighting...no political ones up on each other.
Leadership at the top make it or break it at trying times.
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This is where strong leadership plays how a society deals with catastrophes. History is littered with great leadership from people at the top that saw their societies through troubled times. I know here in Canada we are getting the same message from all levels of government as well as the medical experts. I see no political maneuvering...i fact the various political parties are all in sync. We have out Prime Minister addressing the nation daily with the same message as our province premiers...same message as our health officials, same message as our mayors. No fighting...no political ones up on each other.
Leadership at the top make it or break it at trying times.
There's a lot to be said for being treated like adults.
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This is where strong leadership plays how a society deals with catastrophes. History is littered with great leadership from people at the top that saw their societies through troubled times. I know here in Canada we are getting the same message from all levels of government as well as the medical experts. I see no political maneuvering...i fact the various political parties are all in sync. We have out Prime Minister addressing the nation daily with the same message as our province premiers...same message as our health officials, same message as our mayors. No fighting...no political ones up on each other.
Leadership at the top make it or break it at trying times.
We will have to agree to disagree here.
Fact is, we cant tell which countries, regardless of leadership or position, would succumb to the pressure of hunger. France was the wealthiest country in Europe and revolted twice in the 1800s. England meanwhile was poor throughout the middle ages, dealt with a little ice age, invasion attempts and thrived.
But then again, one of the most counterfeited items during WWII were British food ration passes (I forget the exact term for these). Even the Romans understood that hungry people start revolutions and gave away free food.
As was said before, “there are only nine meals between mankind and anarchy.” You'd be foolish not to heed this warning.
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France was the wealthiest country in Europe and revolted twice in the 1800s.
I'm sure the 1% were wealthy, the rest only had pitchforks. :)
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In Canada, CBC National News announced that the schools will remain closed till the first week in May (or indefinitely), the current isolation policy will extend till June, and many businesses are not able pay their rents.
Today's casualties in USA, the largest epicentre were 650 deaths and 24,000 new infections and worldwide 4,300 deaths and 72,000 new infections.
Total USA counts: 188,500 cases and 3,890 deaths. Total Global Counts: 857,000 cases and 42,000 deaths.
The most affected Western European countries (Italy, Spain, France, UK, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany) incurred in total over 30,000 deaths.
Global projection for April 10: 1.5 million cases and 100,000 deaths.
If Trump is correct in his prediction of the peak in 2 weeks, presuming the current virus growth rate, USA could see half a million cases and 10,000 deaths by April 15.
White House projects 100,000 to 240,000 deaths in the next few months. That would be much higher than the flu deaths from any year before.
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In Canada, CBC National News announced that the schools will remain closed till the first week in May (or indefinitely), the current isolation policy will extend till June, and many businesses are not able pay their rents.
Today's casualties in USA, the largest epicentre were 650 deaths and 24,000 new infections and worldwide 4,300 deaths and 72,000 new infections.
Total USA counts: 188,500 cases and 3,890 deaths. Total Global Counts: 857,000 cases and 42,000 deaths.
The most affected Western European countries (Italy, Spain, France, UK, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany) incurred in total over 30,000 deaths.
Global projection for April 10: 1.5 million cases and 100,000 deaths.
If Trump is correct in his prediction of the peak in 2 weeks, presuming the current virus growth rate, USA could see half a million cases and 10,000 deaths by April 15.
White House projects 100,000 to 240,000 deaths in the next few months. That would be much higher than the flu deaths from any year before.
Yes, it's pretty dire. I'm in New Jersey only 40 miles from NYC. NJ is second highest in cases and deaths after NY. It's really scary because at my age of 75 with heart, diabetes, and other issues, catching this thing could be a death warrant. My wife is younger and healthier than me. But she's refusing to go out as I am, at least for the near future. She and I refuse to go out shopping for food. And they're not taking orders for delivery. Good time to lose a few overweight pounds.
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Here're 3/31/20 statistics for NJ. 77% of deaths are 65 years and older. 42% had underlying medical conditions. The last item shows about 40% of those tested as having the virus. But it's not clear how many tests were randomly taken and not just of people suspected with the disease. If they were random, we could see just how prevalent the disease is in the general public.
The state has also learned of an additional 69 deaths, bringing the total number of fatalities to 267.
55% Male and 45% female
1% were less than 30 years of age
12% were between 30 years and 48 years
17% were between 50 years and 64 years
30% were between 65 years and 79 years
47% were over the age of 80
42% had underlying conditions (obesity, diabetes, hypertension etc.)
Health Commissioner Judith Persichilli says 44,330 tests have now been run in the state, resulting in 17,253 positive tests, for an overall positivity rate of 38.92%
https://www.njtvonline.org/news/uncategorized/tracking-the-coronavirus-in-new-jersey/
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Yes, it's pretty dire. I'm in New Jersey only 40 miles from NYC. NJ is second highest in cases and deaths after NY. It's really scary because at my age of 75 with heart, diabetes, and other issues, catching this thing could be a death warrant. My wife is younger and healthier than me. But she's refusing to go out as I am, at least for the near future. She and I refuse to go out shopping for food. And they're not taking orders for delivery. Good time to lose a few overweight pounds.
NJ is still far behind New York in terms of infections and deaths, although it has roughly the same population. I recall, just a week or so ago, NJ had the same number of deaths as Florida - 9. Now Florida has 87 deaths and NJ 267, about 3 times as much. Hopefully it won't get much worse.
Last week, when shopping for food in my nearby supermarket, I noticed fewer people inside, the cashiers had a protective plexiglass shield installed between them and the customers, and the store was less cluttered and much cleaner. Actually, it seemed quite safe and people kept their distance from each other. There was no shortage of fresh fruit and vegetables. One guy in front of me at the cash register had a flimsy face mask flopping on his face, so I kept 2 meters away from him.
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Well NJ, and Connecticut for that matter, are part of the New York Metropolitan Area. A lot of people who live in NJ and CT work in NYC. So they've apparently been taking the disease home with them to NJ and CT. If the experts are wrong, and this things does not stop and winds its way through the whole society, there could be millions of dead.
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Of course flu is different in many ways. But the point I was making is that no one blinks about the flu even though tens of millions get infected every year and 100,000 died in a two year period. Life went on. No social isolation. No shut down of the economy. I'm not saying we shouldn't be doing what we're doing. It does seem like it's helping a lot. It's just that we shouldn't lose sight that viruses are with us every year. I have a feeling that if this happens next year, we will handle it in different ways but not as extreme. I could be wrong, but I hope and most people should hope I'm right. The country can't stand another bout of this next year medically or economically.
Thing is, most people (?) that die from the flu have had access to medical treatment, and they are normally older people too. We can assume that they had access to treatment for pneumonia. Doctors say that they know how to treat pneumonia, have done it for decades.
The danger of c19 is that even mild cases of pneumonia, as reported by patients, cause severe pain when breathing. Contrary to the normal flu, hospitals can not treat the influx of daily patients that need ICU. In Portugal, we have around 2,000 ICUs, so the math is easy. If we hit say 50,000 cases in a few weeks, 5% of those will need ICUs, that is 2,500. Italy and Spain are forced to decide who gets access to ICU, the number of critical patients every day is so high.
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There's enough of them. Let them live in the country for a few months and they should be quite tasty.
Like bats?
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That does not stop the Chinese government from publishing false data and jailing those who report otherwise. And some of those in the media fail for it hook, line and sinker. To think that China has less cases then the USA is foolish, and using the WHO, of which it is pretty clear has become a shrill for China, data means any chart you put out will be false.
As of yesterday, many in the media were reporting China's death toll to be around 5000, the official Chinese number. However, at least 48,000 urns have been given out in Wuhan alone since this began.
So I take these graphs with a grain of salt when they show official Chinese figures.
Of course the population of that region is around 60 million - so we might expect around 60,000 people to die a month anyway - so possibly 48000 urns is not unexpected......
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Well I certainly agree with the stupidity part of your assessment, and as of now there are no food supply issues here.
However, there was a run, borderline riot, on a food drive yesterday near me. So, even though the supply chains are up and running, all it takes is a little more stupidity and the right spark to cause a panic.
I have no feelings of grander that we as people have evolved past our prior savage versions. We are merely wealthy and can afford not to be, yet the vail of civilization can blow off easier then we think. Take that wealth away, and it wont be long before we succumb to the wild.
Joe - about two weeks ago you said the American public (at least I presume you mean the ones you know of) would not put up with travel and freedom restrictions for more than about two weeks max. Are things breaking down around you, and do you think the latest from Trump about this going on for a long time will lead to an immediate breakdown in society? I thought at the time you had a much lower opinion of the typical US citizen than I do - and I hope that is the case.
Jim
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Joe - about two weeks ago you said the American public (at least I presume you mean the ones you know of) would not put up with travel and freedom restrictions for more than about two weeks max. Are things breaking down around you, and do you think the latest from Trump about this going on for a long time will lead to an immediate breakdown in society? I thought at the time you had a much lower opinion of the typical US citizen than I do - and I hope that is the case.
Anyone remember gun fights at gas stations during the first oil shock in the '70s?
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Anyone remember gun fights at gas stations during the first oil shock in the '70s?
This time around, there is plenty of gas, and it's so cheap that it's hardly worth a fight.
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In Netherlands, the restaurants, bars, sex-clubs and the houses of ill fame are still closed, but the "Coffee-Shops" which sell marijuana were re-opened.
Just as quickly as they were closed, the coffee shops were back in business. After an emergency meeting Monday evening, under pressure from mayors concerned about a potential upsurge in street crime as the business shifted underground, the government said pot stores could reopen for carry out, as long as customers maintained a sufficient distance from one another. “It will be just like picking up a pizza,” said Hubert Bruls, mayor of Nijmegen, a city of 170,000 near the German border.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-18/pot-stores-are-open-again-even-as-the-netherlands-locks-down
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Anyone remember gun fights at gas stations during the first oil shock in the '70s?
No, I lived in Scotland at that time.
I do, however, remember the petrol coupons that were introduced for a period during the Suez Crisis of 1956. Great way of controlling your mileage, and as with today, deciding what's really an important journey away fom home.
Rob
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If the shutdown shuts down the food supply lines, you'll get to see exactly how far, or not at all, we have come.
Fortunately I have about 85 lb. of cheese, so I should be good for a while in case.
There should be no reason for disruption of food supply, it just takes cooperation.
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Iceland lab's testing suggests 50% of coronavirus cases have no symptoms.
DeCODE, a subsidiary of US biotech company Amgen, has so far tested about 9,000 self-selected people.
"The results of the additional tests performed by deCODE have given an indication that efforts to limit the spread of the virus have been effective so far," the government wrote last week, adding "testing in the general population will continue to elicit a much clearer picture of the actual spread of the SARS-CoV-2 virus in Iceland."
Some of the revelations have been stark. Although fewer than 1% of the tests came back positive for the virus, the company's founder Dr. Kári Stefánsson told CNN that around 50% of those who tested positive said they were asymptomatic, confirming multiple studies that show that asymptomatic, or mildly symptomatic, people have played an important role in spreading the virus. "What it means in my mind, is that because we are screening the general population, we are catching people early in the infection before they start showing symptoms," Stefánsson said.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/01/europe/iceland-testing-coronavirus-intl/index.html
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This is where strong leadership plays how a society deals with catastrophes. History is littered with great leadership from people at the top that saw their societies through troubled times. I know here in Canada we are getting the same message from all levels of government as well as the medical experts. I see no political maneuvering...i fact the various political parties are all in sync. We have out Prime Minister addressing the nation daily with the same message as our province premiers...same message as our health officials, same message as our mayors. No fighting...no political ones up on each other.
Leadership at the top make it or break it at trying times.
Fully agree, and that's similar to how things are evolving in the Netherlands.
When our Minister for Medical Care & Sports collapsed (due to being overworked) while being interrogated by parliament, our PM immediately appointed a replacement from the opposition party, someone who had served in that same position during an earlier coalition government and had a proven track record.
The government follows the Scientific eveidence to make poliy decisions, and are therefore consistent in the communication to the people, all people.
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Of course the population of that region is around 60 million - so we might expect around 60,000 people to die a month anyway - so possibly 48000 urns is not unexpected......
You have to read the articles I posted. They did a pretty thorough analysis of deaths in the region in years prior and subtracted that from the amount of urns delivered. This got them around 26K total deaths.
Additionally, others have noted that the creameries have been burning non-stop, and if you figure out the capacity, you get around the same number.
Last, a doctor on another forum who deals with emergency respiratory issues relating to smoke inhalation in a fire prone area says they are having a hard time dealing with the issues from this virus with modern equipment. He very much doubts China had anywhere near 3000 deaths, especially with their much older gear. He actually would be surprised if it was just 30,000.
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https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/live-blog/2020-04-01-coronavirus-news-n1173686/ncrd1173701#liveBlogHeader
Russia sends plane loaded with medical supplies to the U.S.
Russian President Vladimir Putin offered the supplies in a phone call with President Donald Trump on Monday, the U.S. president said at a press conference later that day. On Wednesday Russia loaded up a large An-124 cargo plane — the Russian military’s largest — and dispatched it to the U.S.
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Joe - about two weeks ago you said the American public (at least I presume you mean the ones you know of) would not put up with travel and freedom restrictions for more than about two weeks max. Are things breaking down around you, and do you think the latest from Trump about this going on for a long time will lead to an immediate breakdown in society? I thought at the time you had a much lower opinion of the typical US citizen than I do - and I hope that is the case.
Jim
Well, there are plenty of parties being thrown in Philly even though there is a mandatory stay at home order. Cops are having a hard time clamping down on these things. The parks are getting pretty filled as well, not to mention in other cities too. I read about a massive bon fire party in Maryland happening just this weekend.
Combine that with the fact that in many major cities, including mine, criminals are being released in large numbers because of "COVID-19" (of course not because of Democratic policies of lowering the prison population like our DA Larry Krasner has been calling for) and gun stores are not considered essential. You go through ammo a lot faster then you think, especially if your arm is not great.
I read in West Chester, NY they even started to release many sex offenders and pedophiles. I can see the argument with releasing those whom committed petty crimes like burglary or low level drug offenses but pedophiles, come on. Whats next, serial killers? Oh, and the answer to any potential crimes being committed by these criminals (since these same places are not arresting anyone) is the public officials asking them to please not commit any crimes. This literally happened in, I believe, Maryland; a public figure got on TV and pleaded with criminals not to commit any crimes as if they would actually listen. LOL
Throw in a food chain issue, such as those Whole Foods workers striking yesterday, and you have a perfect recipe for panic.
What many people don't realize, because they were never taught it, was throughout the Great Depression there were many riots in the USA due to just this. When people become desperate, they do desperate things.
If we go up to a 32% unemployment figure where people are hungry, and with many more criminals on the streets without arrests being made, what do you think is going to happen?
Seriously, you guys are being foolish to think we are just so much better today then we were in years past, which is how everyone thinks at every time in history. We are wealthy and can afford to be better versions of ourselves. Take that wealth away and it all goes to shit. Yes, eventually it will work itself out and people will realize that working together leads to better results then rioting, but in the beginning of a break down there will be panic. Cooperation wont come until later.
Do I think it will end the country, no. Do I think what Trump did was right, maybe. I still think it is overblown though, especially with the cost to the economy.
Do I think it was a good idea to let criminals out of the jails, hell no! Do I think stopping arrests and asking criminal nicely to not commit crimes is a good idea, hell no. But these are local issues, not Trump's fault.
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There should be no reason for disruption of food supply, it just takes cooperation.
Okay, so let me ask you a question.
Yesterday Whole Foods, which is owned by Amazon and a major part of the food supply chain for at home deliveries, had a strike. This effects people like Alan who don't want to go out to do any food shopping. The simple solution, in my mind, here would be to fire every single one who striked and hire new employees, whom would be easy to find considering the current economic environment. This would keep this food chain active and send a pretty strong message that now, during a major emergency, is not time to be selfish and just think of yourself, cooperation as you put it.
Would you support this action?
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There should be no reason for disruption of food supply, it just takes cooperation.
Can't seem to get deliveries here in New Jersey. My wife and I want to stay home and out of the stores and lower our risks. If the deaths really escalate, no one's going to want to go out including workers. Then what?
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Why were they sacked ?
What would you do ?
Amazon has fired a worker at its Staten Island warehouse after the man organized a walkout on Monday to demand greater protections from the company amid the coronavirus outbreak. Father-of-three, Chris Smalls, 31, a management assistant at the facility, was laid off from his job following Monday's strike. He had worked for the company for five years.
An estimated 50 to 60 employees joined the walkout at the New York facility demanding that it be shut down and cleaned after a worker tested positive for the coronavirus.
Yesterday Whole Foods, which is owned by Amazon and a major part of the food supply for at home deliveries, had a strike. This effect people like Alan who don't want to go out. The simple solution, in my mind, here would to fire every single one who strike and hire new employees, which would be easy to find considering the environment. This would keep this food chain active and send a pretty strong message that now, during a major emergency, is not time to be selfish and just think of yourself. Cooperation as you put it.
Would you support this action?
(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/03/31/07/26617714-8170495-image-a-98_1585634425675.jpg)
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Okay, so let me ask you a question.
Yesterday Whole Foods, which is owned by Amazon and a major part of the food supply for at home deliveries, had a strike. This effect people like Alan who don't want to go out. The simple solution, in my mind, here would to fire every single one who strike and hire new employees, which would be easy to find considering the environment. This would keep this food chain active and send a pretty strong message that now, during a major emergency, is not time to be selfish and just think of yourself. Cooperation as you put it.
Would you support this action?
Why did they strike?
Are there no alternatives being developed? It seems like a good time to make a competitive difference.
In my country, some restaurants, who have no customers anyway, are preparing meals for whoever wants them delivered. While in Isolation myself (suspected Covid-19, no test available for mild cases) I ordered Pizza and a 4-Chocolat shake when my taste had returned enough to make a difference in what I ate. Strict protocol, payment in advance, do not open the door until the bell is rung by the delivery guy/gal who placed the delivery near the front door while waiting at a distance. GPS Track and Trace made it easy to know when to expect that my delivery would take place (<15 minutes).
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Iceland lab's testing suggests 50% of coronavirus cases have no symptoms.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/01/europe/iceland-testing-coronavirus-intl/index.html
They just set up a testing area in my County. The notice didn't explain who should go in.
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Why were they sacked ?
What would you do ?
Well you only posted the worker's side of the story, and not Amazon's. Amazon said that this worker who organized the strike tested positive himself and continued to come into work after being told not to. Also, the walk out was only 15 people or so, not 50.
Who to believe, hard to say, but I am not just going to believe the worker because he is a worker.
If what Amazon says happened is the case, then that guy deserved to be canned.
If what the worker said happened happened, hard to say. Dont forget this guy was also asking for hazard pay. I forget what this was, but the Whole Foods workers want their salary doubled, which I think is being selfish and deserving of being fired at a time like this.
I see nothing wrong with asking for additional protective measures considering the environment. It would be in the company's best interest anyway and would help them remain active. But it is likely we are not getting the full story here.
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They just set up a testing area in my County. The notice didn't explain who should go in.
Which is needlessly confusing.
P.S. At this stage, in most countries, it is better to reserve the test capacity for Healthcare workers as long as there is a shortage in tests. Allocate for effect, not for selfish reasons. Only when there is a possibility to contain a wider outbreak by identifying a local source and all people he/she may have been in contact with, only then it makes sense to test non-medical personnel (and people in care for the elderly or mentally affected people).
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Why did they strike?
Are there no alternatives being developed? It seems like a good time to make a competitive difference.
In my country, some restaurants, who have no customers anyway, are preparing meals for whoever wants them delivered. While in Isolation myself (suspected Covid-19, no test available for mild cases) I ordered Pizza and a 4-Chocolat shake when my taste had returned enough to make a difference in what I ate. Strict protocol, payment in advance, do not open the door until the bell is rung by the delivery guy/gal who placed the delivery near the front door while waiting at a distance. GPS Track and Trace made it easy to know when to expect that my delivery would take place (<15 minutes).
They want additional protective measures and the right to call in sick, which I see nothing wrong and the company already provided them with. Of course you need a doctor's note to call in sick, which is to be expected.
The big sticking point though is they also want their salary doubled, which is out of the question. When looking at a possible 1/3 of the country being unemployed, you're not getting your salary doubled.
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We will have to agree to disagree here.
Fact is, we cant tell which countries, regardless of leadership or position, would succumb to the pressure of hunger. France was the wealthiest country in Europe and revolted twice in the 1800s. England meanwhile was poor throughout the middle ages, dealt with a little ice age, invasion attempts and thrived.
But then again, one of the most counterfeited items during WWII were British food ration passes (I forget the exact term for these). Even the Romans understood that hungry people start revolutions and gave away free food.
As was said before, “there are only nine meals between mankind and anarchy.” You'd be foolish not to heed this warning.
Surely the riches country in the world won't let its citizens starve. Who's going hungry here.
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They want additional protective measures and the right to call in sick, which I see nothing wrong and the company already provided them with. Of course you need a doctor's note to call in sick, which is to be expected.
For what that's worth.
The big sticking point though is they also want their salary doubled, which is out of the question. When looking at a possible 1/3 of the country being unemployed, you're not getting your salary doubled.
Maybe it is. Depends on how many additional islands/planes/houses Jeff Bezos cannot buy if he did that, and how fair a wage these folks are being payed.
P.S. I'm still wondering, if Michael Bloomberg had given every American citizen 1 million dollars, he would have payed less than he did for his failed election campaign, have secured his election, and solved an economic crisis ...
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Surely the riches country in the world won't let its citizens starve. Who's going hungry here.
My point is that it does not take that much disrupt the food chain, and large governments, anywhere in the world, are often slow to react to anything.
If people cant get food because of strikes and too many individuals calling out sick causing stores to close down, things will go to hell a lot faster then the reaction time from the government.
Most only have three days of food in their house. With the hoarding recently, maybe the average is a little higher now, but not that much. If my local stores close, I would predict looting would start before the local government actually figured out how to solve the problem.
And once looting of a grocery starts, it spreads to other types of stores real fast.
By the way, if anyone thinks I'm crazy here, go back and look at what happened in Ferguson, and bare in mind that there was no major catastrophe at the time. People were not starving, they were not dying, they were not being attacked, it was a media driven panic and looting happened pretty damn fast.
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For what that's worth.
Maybe it is. Depends on how many additional islands/planes/houses Jeff Bezos cannot buy if he did that, and how fair a wage these folks are being payed.
P.S. I'm still wondering, if Michael Bloomberg had given every American citizen 1 million dollars, he would have payed less than he did for his failed election campaign, have secured his election, and solved an economic crisis ...
Your not being serious here, are you? Please tell me no.
That was one hell of a math error on the $1M per citizen statement. It would have worked out to be more like just $2.
And pretty much the same thing with Bezos. If you divided his salary (not his wealth which is almost entirely held up in his company and cant just be withdrawn) amongst all his employees, it probably would be in the cents per employee range.
I read a funny story about Rockefeller that in his later years, he always carried plenty of nickels around with him. Then, when someone would complain to him that he was too rich and that he should spread his wealth around, Rockefeller would give him a nickel. You see, Rockefeller did the math and figured out that if you divided the population of the country at the time into his total wealth, it would work out to be a nickel per US citizen. The rich dont have an unlimited amount of money; we cant solve all our problems by just taxing them.
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Most only have three days of food in their house. With the hoarding recently, maybe the average is a little higher now, but not that much. If my local stores close, I would predict looting would start before the local government actually figured out how to solve the problem.
It's a dilemma. We've been on a multi-decade project to remove government influence because freedom, taxes, etc.. We even lowered taxes to constrain government's ability to act. I'm not saying that there was no justification for this, many levels of governance had become ineffective. Maybe we jumped the gun when we said it was ALL bad though. The trouble is that when the time comes that you need a civil authority to manage disaster planning, avoid looting, etc., you don't have one anymore. It's almost as if we forgot why we spent centuries developing these systems.
The USA, UK, Italy, being modern nations with relatively good infrastructure, should have been among the countries that handled this kind of stress best. They chose to act a little late and now the clowns in power are turning to spin to save their jobs, as if saving their jobs is the point. It's not as if we haven't seen this before. There used to be a now quaint phrase, public service. Gone now.
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Surely the riches country in the world won't let its citizens starve. Who's going hungry here.
There's plenty of food. It's distribution and getting it to people that's the problem.
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... P.S. I'm still wondering, if Michael Bloomberg had given every American citizen 1 million dollars, he would have payed less than he did for his failed election campaign, have secured his election, and solved an economic crisis ...
Ouch!!!
Bye, bye, Bart! ;D
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It's a dilemma. We've been on a multi-decade project to remove government influence because freedom, taxes, etc.. We even lowered taxes to constrain government's ability to act. I'm not saying that there was no justification for this, many levels of governance had become ineffective. Maybe we jumped the gun when we said it was ALL bad though. The trouble is that when the time comes that you need a civil authority to manage disaster planning, avoid looting, etc., you don't have one anymore. It's almost as if we forgot why we spent centuries developing these systems.
The USA, UK, Italy, being modern nations with relatively good infrastructure, should have been among the countries that handled this kind of stress best. They chose to act a little late and now the clowns in power are turning to spin to save their jobs, as if saving their jobs is the point. It's not as if we haven't seen this before. There used to be a now quaint phrase, public service. Gone now.
I just don't see it like; we are doing too much Monday morning quarterbacking here.
Disasters are hard to foresee, and no sane person can actually foresee them because they are so unusual. Those who did make the predictions about this one only seem shrewd because we are no longer paying attention to the 50 or so previous predictions that were so wrong.
On top of that, I think people have too high of an opinion of government people. Ben Shapiro often says that people who work in government are the same kind of idiots that work with you at your job, they just happened to be in government. The older I get, the more and more I realize this is correct.
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Surely the riches country in the world won't let its citizens starve. Who's going hungry here.
There's plenty of food. It's distribution and getting it to people that's the problem. For what that's worth.
Maybe it is. Depends on how many additional islands/planes/houses Jeff Bezos cannot buy if he did that, and how fair a wage these folks are being payed.
P.S. I'm still wondering, if Michael Bloomberg had given every American citizen 1 million dollars, he would have payed less than he did for his failed election campaign, have secured his election, and solved an economic crisis ...
Even he isn't that rich. A million dollars to every American is 330 Trillion dollars.
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Your not being serious here, are you? Please tell me no.
That was one hell of a math error on the $1M per citizen statement. It would have worked out to be more like just $2.
In the fourth quarter of 2019, Bloomberg spent $188 million on his presidential campaign, including $132 million on television ads, $8.2 million on digital ads, $3.3 million on polling, $1.5 million on rent, and $757,000 on airfare, including $646,000 for a private jet.
He quit early, because his campaign was going nowhere. But he could have been spending till November if it had made a difference.
188 million / 331,002,651 estimated citizens in 2020 = US$ 567,971 for starters (after 1 quarter).
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Your not being serious here, are you? Please tell me no.
That was one hell of a math error on the $1M per citizen statement. It would have worked out to be more like just $2.
And pretty much the same thing with Bezos. If you divided his salary (not his wealth which is almost entirely held up in his company and cant just be withdrawn) amongst all his employees, it probably would be in the cents per employee range.
I read a funny story about Rockefeller that in his later years, he always carried plenty of nickels around with him. Then, when someone would complain to him that he was too rich and that he should spread his wealth around, Rockefeller would give him a nickel. You see, Rockefeller did the math and figured out that if you divided the population of the country at the time into his total wealth, it would work out to be a nickel per US citizen. The rich dont have an unlimited amount of money; we cant solve all our problems by just taxing them.
Joe, It was dimes not nickels.
http://www.factfiend.com/john-d-rockefeller-bag-dimes/
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You US lads seem to be really worried about food, perhaps justifiably. Are there not community groups setting up to shop for those isolating and using social media to communicate? Are the supermarkets not opening at fixed times just for the elderly and at other times for health staff who have to show their work pass. Delivery from restaurants that are shut to in-house patrons is a great idea. For those isolating, there are people here ringing up just for a chat to alleviate the confinement.
Best wishes, keep safe.
Jonathan
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He wasn't a cheapskate.
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In the fourth quarter of 2019, Bloomberg spent $188 million on his presidential campaign, including $132 million on television ads, $8.2 million on digital ads, $3.3 million on polling, $1.5 million on rent, and $757,000 on airfare, including $646,000 for a private jet.
He quit early, because his campaign was going nowhere. But he could have been spending till November if it had made a difference.
188 million / 331,002,651 estimated citizens in 2020 = US$ 567,971 for starters.
Bart, It's 57 cents per person. 188,000,000/331.002,651 = $0.57
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Well you only posted the worker's side of the story, and not Amazon's. Amazon said that this worker who organized the strike tested positive himself and continued to come into work after being told not to. Also, the walk out was only 15 people or so, not 50.
But it is likely we are not getting the full story here.
Agreed, I should have commented in detail, but I just posted a link, in haste, to a UK newspaper story. Who do I believe ? On balance, Amazon. Innocent until proven guilty - also Amazon's track record AFAIK is exemplary and I don't see Bezos as a man who is unethical, let alone risk the status of a company he's grown from the ground up.
Motive is all on the workers side, none on Bezos - and Bezos ethics stand proud.
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You US lads seem to be really worried about food, perhaps justifiably. Are there not community groups setting up to shop for those isolating and using social media to communicate? Are the supermarkets not opening at fixed times just for the elderly and at other times for health staff who have to show their work pass. Delivery from restaurants that are shut to in-house patrons is a great idea. For those isolating, there are people here ringing up just for a chat to alleviate the confinement.
Best wishes, keep safe.
Jonathan
My wife had been going to the supermarket. However, since the new predictions, she's gotten scared. I haven't been there at all hiding out for the last two weeks at home except to go out to the park and shoot pictures once and get gas another time. We can't get though to the food store for ordering. If you do, they put you on hold forever, then the line goes dead.
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The big sticking point though is they also want their salary doubled, which is out of the question. When looking at a possible 1/3 of the country being unemployed, you're not getting your salary doubled.
While Caterpillar Inc (CAT.N) said on Tuesday that it will not hand out annual salary increases and bonuses this year as part of cost cut plan to deal with the coronavirus economic fallout.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-31/caterpillar-executive-pay-frozen-as-part-of-efforts-to-cut-costs
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While Caterpillar Inc (CAT.N) said on Tuesday that it will not hand out annual salary increases and bonuses this year as part of cost cut plan to deal with the coronavirus economic fallout.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-31/caterpillar-executive-pay-frozen-as-part-of-efforts-to-cut-costs
By the time this thing is over, there won't be enough cheese left for a mouse to get a tooth in.
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In the fourth quarter of 2019, Bloomberg spent $188 million on his presidential campaign, including $132 million on television ads, $8.2 million on digital ads, $3.3 million on polling, $1.5 million on rent, and $757,000 on airfare, including $646,000 for a private jet.
He quit early, because his campaign was going nowhere. But he could have been spending till November if it had made a difference.
188 million / 331,002,651 estimated citizens in 2020 = US$ 567,971 for starters (after 1 quarter).
Bart, when the numerator is smaller then the denominator, you get an answer less than one. 188,000,000/331,002,651 = 0.567971
For your answer to be correct, he would have had to spent $188 trillion.
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...188 million / 331,002,651 estimated citizens in 2020 = US$ 567,971 for starters (after 1 quarter).
;D ;D ;D
57 cents, Bart, 57 cents!!!
P.S. But you are forgiven, coronavirus does wonders to one's brain as well, it seems ;)
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Bart, when the numerator is smaller then the denominator, you get an answer less than one. 188,000,000/331,002,651 = 0.567971
Happy April 1st.
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By the time this thing is over, there won't be enough cheese left for a mouse to get a tooth in.
It has been estimated that half of small business won't make it.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/barbara-corcoran-says-majority-of-her-shark-tank-companies-wont-make-it-through-coronavirus-trough-120214825.html
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Happy April 1st.
I really hope you were joking. But hey, I made one hell of a math error when we spoke about wind power generation, so ...
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Happy April 1st.
Great save, Bart! I applaud you!
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Joe, It was dimes not nickels.
http://www.factfiend.com/john-d-rockefeller-bag-dimes/
Thanks for the correction.
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Great save, Bart! I applaud you!
There's enough doom and gloom going around. That doesn't help.
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Bart, when the numerator is smaller then the denominator, you get an answer less than one. 188,000,000/331,002,651 = 0.567971
For your answer to be correct, he would have had to spent $188 trillion.
We're going to have to look at his CO2 chart again from Hawaii. If the climate change guys figure like Bart, no wonder our seas are rising. :)
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DOW down 800 points.
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There's enough doom and gloom going around. That doesn't help.
Yeah, we know you're a jokester. :)
Happy April fools'.
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In the fourth quarter of 2019, Bloomberg spent $188 million on his presidential campaign, including $132 million on television ads, $8.2 million on digital ads, $3.3 million on polling, $1.5 million on rent, and $757,000 on airfare, including $646,000 for a private jet.
Assuming $15 as an average price for a pizza, $188 million would buy over 12 million pizzas. That could feed all people in Missoula, MT for half a year.
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My point is that it does not take that much disrupt the food chain, and large governments, anywhere in the world, are often slow to react to anything.
If people cant get food because of strikes and too many individuals calling out sick causing stores to close down, things will go to hell a lot faster then the reaction time from the government.
Most only have three days of food in their house. With the hoarding recently, maybe the average is a little higher now, but not that much. If my local stores close, I would predict looting would start before the local government actually figured out how to solve the problem.
And once looting of a grocery starts, it spreads to other types of stores real fast.
By the way, if anyone thinks I'm crazy here, go back and look at what happened in Ferguson, and bare in mind that there was no major catastrophe at the time. People were not starving, they were not dying, they were not being attacked, it was a media driven panic and looting happened pretty damn fast.
I guess it can happen, but it has not. We can dream up all sorts of scenarios...we have time on are hands, time on the net to create all sorts of "the sky is falling" scenarios...but I just don't see anything out of the norm here. The government quickly nipped the hurding in the bud by limiting crucial items to 1 or 2 per person...so the shelves are stocked every time I go shopping. We have senior hour which makes it much less crowded...in fact many isles have no one in them. The staff ensures people coming into the store are well,spaced, give you a freshly sterilized buggy and workers in the store wear masks and gloves and have plexiglass shield between cashiers and customer. I pay by tapping so I don't need to touch any keypads, and there tons of hand cleaners throughout the store.
I feel safe going shopping for groceries and the workers in the store are doing everything they can to make it safe for the customers and workers. Too boot, a major grocery chain gave their workers a $2 / hour increase in appreciation for working during these times.
Things work if everyone buys into the plan. When people get mixed messages from various sources, then they get confused and buyin is difficult. This is where strong leadership is needed...not any politicking or grand standing to gain support for upcoming elections.
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Thanks for the correction.
My Dad use to collect Roosevelt dimes as a hobby. He couldn't afford to give them away. :)
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Yeah, we know you're a jokester. :)
Happy April fools'.
It works best when not expected...
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There is no indication that this is an April Fools joke:
"Don't Nag Your Husband During Lockdown, Malaysia's Government Advises Women"
https://www.npr.org/2020/04/01/825051317/dont-nag-your-husband-during-lock-down-malaysias-government-advises-women
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My wife had been going to the supermarket. However, since the new predictions, she's gotten scared. I haven't been there at all hiding out for the last two weeks at home except to go out to the park and shoot pictures once and get gas another time. We can't get though to the food store for ordering. If you do, they put you on hold forever, then the line goes dead.
Alan, look at it as a great opportunity to brush up on your cooking skills and try some new recipes. More fun than going to a restaurant.
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By the time this thing is over, there won't be enough cheese left for a mouse to get a tooth in.
That is because Joe Kitchen has got all the cheese...!
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Trump has decided not to open a special enrollment period under the ACA (Obamacare) so that people who have recently lost their jobs as a result of the coronavirus can more easily purchase replacement medical insurance. I am sure there are good reason for not doing so, but they escape me for the moment.
Please note that this article appears in the New York Times and may or may not be true depending on your political preferences.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/01/upshot/obamacare-markets-coronavirus-trump.html
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Trump has decided not to open a special enrollment period under the ACA (Obamacare) so that people who have recently lost their jobs as a result of the coronavirus can more easily purchase replacement medical insurance. I am sure there are good reason for not doing so, but they escape me for the moment.
Please note that this article appears in the New York Times and may or may not be true depending on your political preferences.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/01/upshot/obamacare-markets-coronavirus-trump.html
Not entirely fake, but not entirely true.
Other news outlets are reporting that the exchanges will be open to those who recently became unemployed, but not to the overall public.
I would expect the reason being that if a lot of sick people suddenly signed up on the exchanges, it would drastically increase the prices of coverage and send the whole thing into a death spiral.
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That is because Joe Kitchen has got all the cheese...!
That could be the case by the end of this. I have more rennet coming. ;)
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That could be the case by the end of this. I have more rennet coming. ;)
Yeah, you should send one pound to each active poster on this forum.
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Exercise is on the vegetable patch and making soup from the end of the winter spinach (with coconut and nutmeg) and from the last of the winter squash, both for the freezer. My wife thinks I have hamster in my ancestry.
Best wishes,
Jonathan
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There is no indication that this is an April Fools joke:
"Don't Nag Your Husband During Lockdown, Malaysia's Government Advises Women"
https://www.npr.org/2020/04/01/825051317/dont-nag-your-husband-during-lock-down-malaysias-government-advises-women
Unfortunately, Frank, my wife isn't Malaysian. :-*
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Getting back to the topic at hand, pastors are now being arrested for holding services.
First, just to clarify, I don't think they should be doing so at this time. Also, as an extreme non-religious person, I am not really itching to get to mass.
However, letting criminals go free and refusing to arrest those who break laws while at the same time arresting pastors for holding services (supported by the 1st amendment with freedom of religion and freedom of assembly) is not going to go over well.
If this continues, it's going to get tense.
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Getting back to the topic at hand, pastors are now being arrested for holding services.
First, just to clarify, I don't think they should be doing so at this time. Also, as an extreme non-religious person, I am not really itching to get to mass.
However, letting criminals go free and refusing to arrest those who break laws while at the same time arresting pastors for holding services (supported by the 1st amendment with freedom of religion and freedom of assembly) is not going to go over well.
If this continues, it's going to get tense.
These are very isolated cases. Most priests, pastors, etc. have good sense, and if they don't, their congregants do. Snake handlers, however, do not see much additional risk in holding services during a pandemic.
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These are very isolated cases. Most priests, pastors, etc. have good sense, and if they don't, their congregants do. Snake handlers, however, do not see much additional risk in holding services during a pandemic.
To you or I, this makes perfect sense.
To the zealots, well good luck that!
The narrative I described is already being used by other religious people I know.
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Surely the riches country in the world won't let its citizens starve. Who's going hungry here.
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/31/business/food-supply-disruption-coronavirus-us/index.html
"What happens to our food supply if American farmers can't farm?"
American farmers are concerned.
The coronavirus pandemic is posing a threat to their livelihoods, as it is for many others across the globe. But unlike some shelf-stable goods producers, farmers have very little flexibility. They're on a strict planting and harvesting schedule and cannot ramp up or decrease production at will.
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Not entirely fake, but not entirely true.
Other news outlets are reporting that the exchanges will be open to those who recently became unemployed, but not to the overall public.
I would expect the reason being that if a lot of sick people suddenly signed up on the exchanges, it would drastically increase the prices of coverage and send the whole thing into a death spiral.
The article mentioned that 12 states which operate their own markets have open enrollment. Trump's decision only affects the 38 states that participate in healthcare.gov.
I have not seen any stories about insurance premium increases. They are inevitable. We may very well see the uninsured ranks growing soon.
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Going back to my previous post about how I do not think it is wise to criticize most politicians right now, most.
But De Blasio is an exception.
DAs blast de Blasio as violent offenders set for release from Rikers despite mayor's promise (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/das-blast-de-blasio-after-violent-offenders-released-from-rikers-despite-mayors-promise)
"New York City prosecutors blasted Mayor Bill de Blasio after he appeared to go back on a vow that domestic violence and sex offenders would not be included among those released from the Rikers Island correctional facility due to the coronavirus pandemic."
He is seeking to let domestic violence offenders out. ???
I hate to say it, but some woman will unfortunately be beaten to death by her POS husband if he does, because that is what those type of men do. I photographed a battered women's shelter a few years back and the lengths they go for security are immense because it is all too common for the husbands to search out their wives and beat them to death. There is no way to sugar coat this; you cant rest your hopes on the good conscience of these type of men that they wont get out of hand during this pandemic because they have no conscience.
The only bright side is that this will end his career if he goes ahead with it.
Yeah, we've reached the point of insanity. Last week, you guys had an argument, that I disagreed with, but a valid argument none the less. These measures are destroying that.
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I don't believe I've read any commentary here about that sh*t show press conference where one (or maybe more than one) CEO(s) alternately praised god, praised Trump, then praised god for bringing them Trump, followed by Trump doing an informercial for his CEO buddies on the taxpayer's dime. Tell me, was there anyone watching who didn't puke? Please tell me people don't fall for this third-rate crap. Soviet "social realist art" was more subtle.
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I don't believe I've read any commentary here about that sh*t show press conference where one (or maybe more than one) CEO(s) alternately praised god, praised Trump, then praised god for bringing them Trump, followed by Trump doing an informercial for his CEO buddies on the taxpayer's dime. Tell me, was there anyone watching who didn't puke? Please tell me people don't fall for this third-rate crap. Soviet "social realist art" was more subtle.
I missed it, but will certainly not be buying new pillows any time soon.
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I don't believe I've read any commentary here about that sh*t show press conference where one (or maybe more than one) CEO(s) alternately praised god, praised Trump, then praised god for bringing them Trump, followed by Trump doing an informercial for his CEO buddies on the taxpayer's dime. Tell me, was there anyone watching who didn't puke? Please tell me people don't fall for this third-rate crap. Soviet "social realist art" was more subtle.
Did you listen to the whole thing? Or are you just rehashing what the liberal press wants you to think?
Yes, the whole God part kind of through me off, but the guy is using nearly all of his production capacity to produce needed medical equipment. He is dedicating his call centers to help distributors of medical equipment (in addition to whatever he is producing) to stream line shipments.
What are you doing other then posting on this forum? Yes, you can say the same about me, and neither of us deserve presidential credit.
This guy does for what he is doing.
He is helping out with the cause.
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I don't believe I've read any commentary here about that sh*t show press conference where one (or maybe more than one) CEO(s) alternately praised god, praised Trump, then praised god for bringing them Trump, followed by Trump doing an informercial for his CEO buddies on the taxpayer's dime. Tell me, was there anyone watching who didn't puke? Please tell me people don't fall for this third-rate crap. Soviet "social realist art" was more subtle.
So, someone who has converted his factories to produce PPE's in a time of crisis, dares to mention that maybe people might look towards God for comfort gets your goat? Really? That they might be a Trump supporter and are glad he got elected? Thats whats working you up? Really? Or is it that Trump is doing something good...thats working you up? Really?
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First, I'm genuinely glad to hear he's doing something other than helping Trump with his re-election campaign.
Second, don't make this personal, I have as much right to criticize as you do.
Third, there are millions of people doing the necessary, many of whom have drawn criticism from POTUS for reasons that only a therapist could explain.
You can spin it any way you want, and you can even take it out on me, but it was an embarrassing over the top display of partisan bullsh*t during a press conference where very serious issues were being addressed. The story is about people getting sick, it's not about Trump.
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It was an impromptu speech and stated as much before he gave it.
This was not a planned Trump rally.
Quick question, were you just as upset when Obama was given praise after Sandy for pretty much doing nothing more then what the federal government does during a disaster? There was a lot of Obama ass kissing going on afterwards, and I cant remember anyone really complaining about it.
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First, I'm genuinely glad to hear he's doing something other than helping Trump with his re-election campaign.
Second, don't make this personal, I have as much right to criticize as you do.
Third, there are millions of people doing the necessary, many of whom have drawn criticism from POTUS for reasons that only a therapist could explain.
You can spin it any way you want, and you can even take it out on me, but it was an embarrassing over the top display of partisan bullsh*t during a press conference where very serious issues were being addressed. The story is about people getting sick, it's not about Trump.
Yes, its about people getting sick and others stepping up to help them, both with physical things and perhaps spiritual support. If religion is not your thing, thats cool. For others it is. He is surely allowed ot praise Trump and his God on the nation stage just as others do the opposite to Trump. But like it or not, its Trumps bully pulpit, and he gets to decide how to use it.
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It was an impromptu speech and stated as much before he gave it.
This was not a planned Trump rally.
Quick question, were you just as upset when Obama was given praise after Sandy for pretty much doing nothing more then what the federal government does during a disaster? There was a lot of Obama ass kissing going on afterwards, and I cant remember anyone really complaining about it.
Interesting question. I don't know why you think it's relevant. As a matter of fact, I don't remember taking notice of Obama during that episode. Or ever, really. I don't live in the USA, don't often pay much attention. This whole Covid-19 contagion and response is a highly unusual situation. Normally, I'm not very interested in partisan US politics, however Trump is a preposterous enough figure that it's difficult not to notice what he says or does.
The reason Trump's behaviour is attracting this much attention worldwide is that between the time the idiotic Chinese government finally told WHO what was going on (Jan 9 or 12 or something) until about March 15, Trump is on record many times saying that the virus was nothing to worry about and the rest of the country took little action. They had 2 months of watching what was happening in other countries. Maybe you think this is some kind of anti-Trump or even anti-American gloating, but what it really is utter astonishment by most people on earth that the richest country in the world with presumably one of the best medical systems could let this happen. People are shit-scared that if it could happen to you, then it could happen to them, and people are watching closely to figure out what went wrong. Because a lot went wrong, just look at the numbers. No one is taking pleasure in this, least of all me. I have friends and relations living in the northeast US.
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Interesting question. I don't know why you think it's relevant. As a matter of fact, I don't remember taking notice of Obama during that episode. Or ever, really. I don't live in the USA, don't often pay much attention. This whole Covid-19 contagion and response is a highly unusual situation. Normally, I'm not very interested in partisan US politics, however Trump is a preposterous enough figure that it's difficult not to notice what he says or does.
The reason Trump's behaviour is attracting this much attention worldwide is that between the time the idiotic Chinese government finally told WHO what was going on (Jan 9 or 12 or something) until about March 15, Trump is on record many times saying that the virus was nothing to worry about and the rest of the country took little action. They had 2 months of watching what was happening in other countries. Maybe you think this is some kind of anti-Trump or even anti-American gloating, but what it really is utter astonishment by most people on earth that the richest country in the world with presumably one of the best medical systems could let this happen. People are shit-scared that if it could happen to you, then it could happen to them, and people are watching closely to figure out what went wrong. Because a lot went wrong, just look at the numbers. No one is taking pleasure in this, least of all me. I have friends and relations living in the northeast US.
Hindsight is 20/20. Trump did close down travel from China at the end of January followed by shutting down travel from Europe. Of course that wasn;t enough. But it's easy to know the winner at the end of a horse race. If he told everyone to wear a mask and keep 6 feet away from each other and don;t go to theaters, you guys would have called him nuts. So it really doesn;t matter what he did. If fact, Biden and other Democrats did call him nuts when he shut down travel. So now, everyone is a genius after they're told E=MC2. It's all politics because of the election.
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Interesting question. I don't know why you think it's relevant. As a matter of fact, I don't remember taking notice of Obama during that episode. Or ever, really. I don't live in the USA, don't often pay much attention. This whole Covid-19 contagion and response is a highly unusual situation. Normally, I'm not very interested in partisan US politics, however Trump is a preposterous enough figure that it's difficult not to notice what he says or does.
The reason Trump's behaviour is attracting this much attention worldwide is that between the time the idiotic Chinese government finally told WHO what was going on (Jan 9 or 12 or something) until about March 15, Trump is on record many times saying that the virus was nothing to worry about and the rest of the country took little action. They had 2 months of watching what was happening in other countries. Maybe you think this is some kind of anti-Trump or even anti-American gloating, but what it really is utter astonishment by most people on earth that the richest country in the world with presumably one of the best medical systems could let this happen. People are shit-scared that if it could happen to you, then it could happen to them, and people are watching closely to figure out what went wrong. Because a lot went wrong, just look at the numbers. No one is taking pleasure in this, least of all me. I have friends and relations living in the northeast US.
First, it matters because it shows the hypocrisy of the media. They are only being critical because he is a republican. When Obama had his ass kissed up and down after Sandy, no one in the media had any complaints.
Second, your observation on the partisan politics also shows the hypocrisy here since every single politician in the USA said this was no big deal. Trump closing the borders in January was even being criticized for doing so by the Dems at the time.
Sure, he downplayed it in February, but so did everyone and every major news report. The NY Times reported that hysteria was spreading faster then the virus, and told us we had nothing to worry about.
Fact is, everyone has egg on their face over this, and we should not be playing partisan politics (except with De Blasio; he's a jack ass), but the media cant help themselves. They are so entrenched in attacking republicans that it is natural for them. Thanksfully though they no longer have a monopoly on news, and many Americans are figuring this out.
Like I stated recently, since this broke out, the only institution where Americans had a decrease in trust/approval is the American media. Every other major institution has seen an increase in approval and trust.
This is no ones' fault.
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First, it matters because it shows the hypocrisy of the media. They are only being critical because he is a republican. When Obama had his ass kissed up and down after Sandy, no one in the media had any complaints.
Second, your observation on the partisan politics also shows the hypocrisy here since every single politician in the USA said this was no big deal. Trump closing the borders in January was even being criticized for doing so by the Dems at the time.
Sure, he downplayed it in February, but so did everyone and every major news report. The NY Times reported that hysteria was spreading faster then the virus, and told us we had nothing to worry about.
Fact is, everyone has egg on their face over this, and we should not be playing partisan politics (except with De Blasio; he's a jack ass), but the media cant help themselves. They are so entrenched in attacking republicans that it is natural for them. Thanksfully though they no longer have a monopoly on news, and many Americans are figuring this out.
Like I stated recently, since this broke out, the only institution where Americans had a decrease in trust/approval is the American media. Every other major institution has seen an increase in approval and trust.
I find that confusing. The fact that all your politicians didn't see this coming (or did and failed to act) is the problem. The problem isn't the media.
It's silly to blame one "side" or the other, it's only the side that is in office who can take action. Who but the people in office should carry the can when they don't, and why shouldn't the press criticize them when they fail? That's their job. The press is not the government's marketing department.
I've said this before on this site many times, if the people in office are pissed off at the press, that is only proof that the press is doing a good job.
For all I know, it could very well be the case that Obama charmed the press better than Trump does. It's plausible enough. But I thought Trump was supposed to be a really skilled CEO with a knowledge of how to handle the media. Well, let's see some of that expertise in action. He had majorities in both houses, still does in one, and you blame the press for his failings? Sorry, I'm not buying it.
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I find that confusing. The fact that all your politicians didn't see this coming (or did and failed to act) is the problem. The problem isn't the media.
It's silly to blame one "side" or the other, it's only the side that is in office who can take action. Who but the people in office should carry the can when they don't, and why shouldn't the press criticize them when they fail? That's their job. The press is not the government's marketing department.
I've said this before on this site many times, if the people in office are pissed off at the press, that is only proof that the press is doing a good job.
For all I know, it could very well be the case that Obama charmed the press better than Trump does. It's plausible enough. But I thought Trump was supposed to be a really skilled CEO with a knowledge of how to handle the media. Well, let's see some of that expertise in action. He had majorities in both houses, still does in one, and you blame the press for his failings? Sorry, I'm not buying it.
Whether you choose to believe it or not, it is the truth.
Another recent example, 5 days ago a sexual assault allegation was issued against Biden. Now Biden has been given interviews since then, and even though Biden said during the Kavanaugh hearings that every women who comes forward should believed, not a single interviewer in the media asked him about it. Not one.
Meanwhile, back during the Kavanaugh hearings, the media collectively lost it with a less credible allegation. The media is biased against republicans and I, for one, am glad we finally have a republican that is willing to stand up to it.
With this crisis, every Dem worked against Trump when he even tried to implement the travel ban. Pelosi gave an interview in Chinatown in San Fran and encouraged people to come dow to the crowded area and enjoy the Chinese culture. Now, nothing wrong with doing so, but people visiting from China more then likely go to Chinatown, and in a crammed area you are more likely to get the virus.
As Alan said, hindsight is 20/20, and no one could have seen this coming. No one on the right nor the left raised any alarms. They are all equally at fault. The republicans had the presidency and the dems had the co-equal house.
Both parties were in charge and both blew it.
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... As Alan said, hindsight is 20/20, and no one could have seen this coming. No one on the right nor the left raised any alarms. They are all equally at fault. The republicans had the presidency and the dems had the co-equal house.
Both parties were in charge and both blew it.
I would say, nobody is at fault.
Otherwise, you are contradicting the hindsight bias you just mentioned. At every given stage of the events, people, including Trump, were trying their best. No truth is simple, and everything in life is a trade-off. Given the same set of facts, two people would come to a different conclusion, given their preferences for trade-offs. This is true even for the most benevolent intentions.
The situation has been akin to Monday-morning quarterbacking, except every day has been a Monday this year. Every single day the situation changes, and every single day people were trying to make the best decisions based on the available information at that moment. In addition to that, they had to deal with decisions that were made by someone else in the past and in completely different circumstances, going deep several previous administrations.
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Furious Italian Vice President removes European Union flag for not helping Coronavirus hit Italy [the vice president of the Italian Chamber of Deputies (lower house of parliament) Fabio Rampelli]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk232l2JJRg
Disclaimer: not sure about the veracity of the event
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Furious Italian Vice President removes European Union flag for not helping Coronavirus hit Italy [the vice president of the Italian Chamber of Deputies (lower house of parliament) Fabio Rampelli]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk232l2JJRg
Disclaimer: not sure about the veracity of the event
That's because the only Italians in the EU are Italian.
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Corid-19 is turning everyone into Democrats including me. We're all staying at home, not working, complaining about everything, and waiting for a check from the government.
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Whether you choose to believe it or not, it is the truth.
Another recent example, 5 days ago a sexual assault allegation was issued against Biden. Now Biden has been given interviews since then, and even though Biden said during the Kavanaugh hearings that every women who comes forward should believed, not a single interviewer in the media asked him about it. Not one.
Meanwhile, back during the Kavanaugh hearings, the media collectively lost it with a less credible allegation. The media is biased against republicans and I, for one, am glad we finally have a republican that is willing to stand up to it.
<snip>
The media is being careful because the woman who made the accusation is a crank who is apparently infatuated with Vladimir Putin and whose several comments about Biden have increased from having been touched on the neck to having been "digitally penetrated." The alleged event happened almost thirty years ago, and her accusations have increased in severity since she became involved with the Bernie Sanders campaign, and some of her accusations have been denied by female witnesses in whom she said she'd confided. There are also some questions about how this might have happened? Was she naked? How do you get "digitally penetrated" in an office setting if you're wearing both pants or a dress, and underwear? The accusation also places Biden in a completely untenable position -- how can you deny something that supposedly happened in private so long ago? In other words, it's very possibly bullshit, unlike the "grab them by the pussy" comment made by Trump on a video camera. And that's why the media is being careful.
I have to tell you, Joe, I think you have been seriously gaslighted by Trump and his media supporters, and you really ought to stick to commenting on cheese, which I have found somewhat interesting.
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The media is being careful because the woman who made the accusation is a crank who is apparently infatuated with Vladimir Putin and whose several comments about Biden have increased from having been touched on the neck to having been "digitally penetrated." The alleged event happened almost thirty years ago, and her accusations have increased in severity since she became involved with the Bernie Sanders campaign, and some of her accusations have been denied by female witnesses in whom she said she'd confided. There are also some questions about how this might have happened? Was she naked? How do you get "digitally penetrated" in an office setting if you're wearing both pants or a dress, and underwear? The accusation also places Biden in a completely untenable position -- how can you deny something that supposedly happened in private so long ago? In other words, it's very possibly bullshit, unlike the "grab them by the pussy" comment made by Trump on a video camera. And that's why the media is being careful.
I have to tell you, Joe, I think you have been seriously gaslighted by Trump and his media supporters, and you really ought to stick to commenting on cheese, which I have found somewhat interesting.
So what you’re saying is we should not take all sexual allegations seriously?
Funny, but that is not how it played during the Kavanaugh hearings.
And just for the record, I dont think her story is credible. But it is more so then Blasey Ford's story, and Biden is not running for the court but for president. It should get just as much scrutiny as Ford's.
It is just an example of media bias.
But I can tell you this, it is going to an issue in the election cycle. Better to deal with it now then later. If HRC had owned up the email thing and got it over with in February, she would have won. Biden is making the same mistake.
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Corid-19 is turning everyone into Democrats including me. We're all staying at home, not working, complaining about everything, and waiting for a check from the government.
Well this (sort of) Democrat is staying home, working, and not counting on a check. They can put mine toward rebuilding the pandemic response team we used to have.
I'm only a Democrat by default. I'm more of a non-Republican.
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The media is being careful because the woman who made the accusation is a crank who is apparently infatuated with Vladimir Putin and whose several comments about Biden have increased from having been touched on the neck to having been "digitally penetrated." The alleged event happened almost thirty years ago, and her accusations have increased in severity since she became involved with the Bernie Sanders campaign, and some of her accusations have been denied by female witnesses in whom she said she'd confided. There are also some questions about how this might have happened? Was she naked? How do you get "digitally penetrated" in an office setting if you're wearing both pants or a dress, and underwear? The accusation also places Biden in a completely untenable position -- how can you deny something that supposedly happened in private so long ago? In other words, it's very possibly bullshit, unlike the "grab them by the pussy" comment made by Trump on a video camera. And that's why the media is being careful.
I have to tell you, Joe, I think you have been seriously gaslighted by Trump and his media supporters, and you really ought to stick to commenting on cheese, which I have found somewhat interesting.
Biden's touchy-feely demeanor around women including getting close and sniffing their hair certainly adds more credibility to the women than the accusers of Kavanaugh. But like I said before, the media will protect Biden. By the way, there's nothing wrong with keeping politicians honest, as you said earlier. The problem is they should do it on all sides so the public can get fair and balanced news rather than lopsided reporting.
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I would say, nobody is at fault.
Otherwise, you are contradicting the hindsight bias you just mentioned. At every given stage of the events, people, including Trump, were trying their best. No truth is simple, and everything in life is a trade-off. Given the same set of facts, two people would come to a different conclusion, given their preferences for trade-offs. This is true even for the most benevolent intentions.
The situation has been akin to Monday-morning quarterbacking, except every day has been a Monday this year. Every single day the situation changes, and every single day people were trying to make the best decisions based on the available information at that moment. In addition to that, they had to deal with decisions that were made by someone else in the past and in completely different circumstances, going deep several previous administrations.
NHL Abandons Accountability for the 2020-2021 Season
At the end of the season, after the playoffs are over, every coach and player in the league gets a big bonus and an extension of their contract, and gets to spend a special day with the Stanley Cup. After all, it is nobody's fault that some teams lost more games than others.
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So what you’re saying is we should not take all sexual allegations seriously?
No, I don't think we should take all sexual allegations seriously. I only think we should take serious allegations seriously.
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Italy’s Coronavirus Death Toll Is Far Higher Than Reported
https://www.wsj.com/articles/italys-coronavirus-death-toll-is-far-higher-than-reported-11585767179?mod=hp_lead_pos2&fbclid=IwAR3hCINxkaN5NTEy0B7UG8-3_Li4HopupiJST2t10QScAO2obxHkArbIRec
MILAN—In the town of Coccaglio, an hour’s drive east of here, the local nursing home lost over a third of its residents in March. None of the 24 people who died there were tested for the new coronavirus. Nor were the 38 people who died in another nursing home in the nearby town of Lodi.
These aren’t isolated incidents. Italy’s official death toll from the virus stands at 13,155, the most of any country in the world. But that number tells only part of the story because many people who die from the virus don’t make it to the hospital and are never tested.
In the areas worst hit by the pandemic, Italy is undercounting thousands of deaths caused by the virus, a Wall Street Journal analysis shows, indicating that the pandemic’s human toll may end up being much greater, and infections far more widespread, than official data indicate.
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Here's an article about the situation here with a local doc on the front lines. (https://www.hcn.org/articles/covid19-we-run-towards-problems-not-away-from-them?fbclid=IwAR3nfAb729lGuBmN4gxJ_4OPPpzbKEkTMbKuOwJcdD2hEoQWbvibuf8S1Is) The makeshift hospital is at the fairgrounds in my neighborhood where I often walk the dog.
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Here are some more facts for you Trump supporters to chew on. Yes, facts, on the public record.
In an interview with Sean Hannity on March 26th, Trump made several statements regarding the corona virus situation. At a press briefing on the 29th he was asked questions about these statements. In both cases his response was “I didn’t say that.” Is this who you want for your president?
And as frosting on the cake, Trump is asking that his signature be on the relief checks.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/29/politics/fact-check-coronavirus-briefing
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... Trump is asking that his signature be on the relief checks...
Haven't we been through this a few pages back? The vast majority of payments will be via direct deposit, not paper checks.
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Italy’s Coronavirus Death Toll Is Far Higher Than Reported
Indeed, Italy (and many other countries) is substantially undercounting the Covid019 deaths. Some of these fatalities will be attributed to pneumonia, flu or age-related illnesses.
At the same time, there are numerous other uncounted deaths due to cancer, heart, diabetes, and other illnesses which couldn't be treated as needed, due to the lack of medical facilities or personnel. Even delayed blood work tests and missed elective surgeries, such as knee and hip replacements contribute to accidents, infections and other problems that kill the patients.
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It amazes me all this political BS when a major crisis is unfolding. No wonder the US is in such a mess...more focused on political grandstanding than on trying to solve the problem. How the hell can ANYONE say that if we only loose 100,000 people it will be a success. I'd run that ahole right out of the country...but no...so many defend him.
Glad I can sit on the sidelines and just observe this huge mismanagement from outside the USA. I'd hate to be holed up in my home awaiting for your saviour from the whitehouse to come rescue you.
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Here's an article about the situation here with a local doc on the front lines. (https://www.hcn.org/articles/covid19-we-run-towards-problems-not-away-from-them?fbclid=IwAR3nfAb729lGuBmN4gxJ_4OPPpzbKEkTMbKuOwJcdD2hEoQWbvibuf8S1Is) The makeshift hospital is at the fairgrounds in my neighborhood where I often walk the dog.
Interesting article. Is the number of cases due to the tourist ski season?
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It amazes me all this political BS when a major crisis is unfolding. No wonder the US is in such a mess...more focused on political grandstanding than on trying to solve the problem. How the hell can ANYONE say that if we only loose 100,000 people it will be a success. I'd run that ahole right out of the country...but no...so many defend him.
Glad I can sit on the sidelines and just observe this huge mismanagement from outside the USA. I'd hate to be holed up in my home awaiting for your saviour from the whitehouse to come rescue you.
You assume someone else might have/would done a better job. And lets not forget that some of the American people share a large part of the blame for not caring about this and just doing whatever they wanted to do.
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Here are some more facts for you Trump supporters to chew on. Yes, facts, on the public record.
In an interview with Sean Hannity on March 26th, Trump made several statements regarding the corona virus situation. At a press briefing on the 29th he was asked questions about these statements. In both cases his response was “I didn’t say that.” Is this who you want for your president?
And as frosting on the cake, Trump is asking that his signature be on the relief checks.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/29/politics/fact-check-coronavirus-briefing
Nice spin by CNN. Is that who you want as your news source?
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Interesting article. Is the number of cases due to the tourist ski season?
We suspect it was a combination of tourists and residents who had traveled elsewhere. One of the first confirmed cases was a doctor from Crested Butte who was recently in Hawaii for a medical conference and another (who has since died) owned a pizza place in Crested Butte that was popular with locals and tourists. The pizza place guy wasn't diagnosed until after he died so he would been spreading it unknowingly before he was really sick.
This was early on and historically these kinds of things have not come here first so I think we were unaware as a community until it had spread around quite a bit.
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Nice spin by CNN. Is that who you want as your news source?
It absolutely befuddles me how somebody can look at a video in which Trump says something, and then another one in which he denies saying it, and call it "spin." What does the source of the video have to do with it? It could just as well been on Fox, except, of course, Fox would never do such a thing.
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No, I don't think we should take all sexual allegations seriously. I only think we should take serious allegations seriously.
Well it is good to know that there is some sanity on the other side.
But until the NYTs and other outlets apologize for their treatment of Kavanaugh, I am holding them accountable for not reporting on this.
I fully plan on talking about this allegation, even though it is not very credible, until November and use it as a prime example of hypocrisy.
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You assume someone else might have/would done a better job. And lets not forget that some of the American people share a large part of the blame for not caring about this and just doing whatever they wanted to do.
I've seen strong leadership in other countries that is yielding different results. You can't blame the people if their leader is just a spin doctor. The military has a lot of strong leaders that lead soldiers into battle knowing their lives are on the line. Would you follow Trump into battle?
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It amazes me all this political BS when a major crisis is unfolding. No wonder the US is in such a mess...more focused on political grandstanding than on trying to solve the problem. How the hell can ANYONE say that if we only loose 100,000 people it will be a success. I'd run that ahole right out of the country...but no...so many defend him.
Glad I can sit on the sidelines and just observe this huge mismanagement from outside the USA. I'd hate to be holed up in my home awaiting for your saviour from the whitehouse to come rescue you.
Your post is 100% political. Thanks for adding to the din.
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I've seen strong leadership in other countries that is yielding different results. You can't blame the people if their leader is just a spin doctor. The military has a lot of strong leaders that lead soldiers into battle knowing their lives are on the line. Would you follow Trump into battle?
Another post of yours that's 100% political.
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It absolutely befuddles me how somebody can look at a video in which Trump says something, and then another one in which he denies saying it, and call it "spin." What does the source of the video have to do with it? It could just as well been on Fox, except, of course, Fox would never do such a thing.
Well first of all there was no video at the link but I digress. Did you actually watch the Trump/ Hannity interview (Or read the actual transcript) and then read the “ quotes” by CNN.?
If you do, then we can have a discussion about how CNN used the spin cycle. If not, do the research and get back to me.
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Another post of yours that's 100% political.
Alan...I'm just getting sucked into the political vortex that you spearhead. Personally I'm much more concerned about the virus and people that are getting affected...but whenever one tries to discuss this...politics seems to wiggle in.
Who the hell cares if a republican or democrat has the bigger d**k...what the hell is being done to deal with this virus. Saying 100,000 deaths as a victory is just disgusting.
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Who the hell cares if a republican or democrat has the bigger d**k...what the hell is being done to deal with this virus. Saying 100,000 deaths as a victory is just disgusting.
I believe we are up to 240,000 deaths as having done a good job. You have to check in every day to Trump's televised self-adulation hour for updates.
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I believe we are up to 240,000 deaths as having done a good job. You have to check in every day to Trump's televised self-adulation hour for updates.
So Obama praised himself before his 2012 re-election of how he got us out of Iraq. Of course, he never mentioned how this created the ISIS monster that Trump had to finally bring to destruction years later. Let's face it. Politicians want credit however they can get it. If you're stuck with lemons, make lemonade.
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And the beat goes on....
And people continue to die.
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Russia lands 60 tons of medical equipment at JFK Airport in NYC to help fight Covid-19. In exchange, Trump allows Putin to keep Ukraine which he's glad to get rid of after the impeachment. (The second part I made up. So remain calm. ) :)
Russian plane with coronavirus medical gear lands in U.S. after Trump-Putin call
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/russian-plane-coronavirus-medical-gear-lands-u-s-after-trump-n1174436
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Instead of a statement, here's an honest question for liberals and conservatives alike. (Even a few liberals play golf. Like Obama.)
My golf club has a policy of allowing people on the course but only if (a) you walk -- no carts, which could be contaminated. (b) You don't come within 6 yards of another golfer. (3) You have you bring your own clubs -- there are no people in the storage areas to retrieve them. You're allowed to use the practice chipping and putting areas if (a) you bring your own balls, and don't exchange balls with anyone, (b) you don't get within 6 yards of another player. Again, no carts.
Arizona (where I don't live) is currently having a controversy about golf courses being allowed to remain open. Do you think the courses should be closed as a matter of solidarity with the rest of the country which has no such outlet? Or that they should be allowed to remain open under conditions outlined above? Is this a richie-richie v. proletarian kind of controversy, even though the biggest golf courses around here are (a) public or (b) operated by casinos at cheap prices? Is this controversy aimed at Trump, who, by actual count, has been in office 1,167 days (as of April Fool's Day) and has, by actual count, on that day, played 117 rounds of golf at an approximate cost to the taxpayers of $133,000,000?* (There are actual websites who keep track of these things, easily found on the net.)
Anyway, should golf be banned?
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Instead of a statement, here's an honest question for liberals and conservatives alike. (Even a few liberals play golf. Like Obama.)
My golf club has a policy of allowing people on the course but only if (a) you walk -- no carts, which could be contaminated. (b) You don't come within 6 yards of another golfer. (3) You have you bring your own clubs -- there are no people in the storage areas to retrieve them. You're allowed to use the practice chipping and putting areas if (a) you bring your own balls, and don't exchange balls with anyone, (b) you don't get within 6 yards of another player. Again, no carts.
Arizona (where I don't live) is currently having a controversy about golf courses being allowed to remain open. Do you think the courses should be closed as a matter of solidarity with the rest of the country which has no such outlet? Or that they should be allowed to remain open under conditions outlined above? Is this a richie-richie v. proletarian kind of controversy, even though the biggest golf courses around here are (a) public or (b) operated by casinos at cheap prices? Is this controversy aimed at Trump, who, by actual count, has been in office 1,167 days (as of April Fool's Day) and has, by actual count, on that day, played 117 rounds of golf at an approximate cost to the taxpayers of $133,000,000?* (There are actual websites who keep track of these things, easily found on the net.)
Anyway, should golf be banned?
Probably, yeah, for the time being.
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Instead of a statement, here's an honest question for liberals and conservatives alike. (Even a few liberals play golf. Like Obama.)
My golf club has a policy of allowing people on the course but only if (a) you walk -- no carts, which could be contaminated. (b) You don't come within 6 yards of another golfer. (3) You have you bring your own clubs -- there are no people in the storage areas to retrieve them. You're allowed to use the practice chipping and putting areas if (a) you bring your own balls, and don't exchange balls with anyone, (b) you don't get within 6 yards of another player. Again, no carts.
Arizona (where I don't live) is currently having a controversy about golf courses being allowed to remain open. Do you think the courses should be closed as a matter of solidarity with the rest of the country which has no such outlet? Or that they should be allowed to remain open under conditions outlined above? Is this a richie-richie v. proletarian kind of controversy, even though the biggest golf courses around here are (a) public or (b) operated by casinos at cheap prices? Is this controversy aimed at Trump, who, by actual count, has been in office 1,167 days (as of April Fool's Day) and has, by actual count, on that day, played 117 rounds of golf at an approximate cost to the taxpayers of $133,000,000?* (There are actual websites who keep track of these things, easily found on the net.)
Anyway, should golf be banned?
First, lets keep in mind Obama was an avid golfer as well, so I do not think it is fair to criticize Trump for playing. Nor do I feel we should criticize Obama either.
But anyway, I would agree with your club's rules and feel golf should not be banned. I cant think of a better sport for social distancing. Of course, those rules do make it hard to play with someone else; 6 yards is quite the distance for camaraderie and if you're out of shape, walking could be an issue.
That being said, I always walk the course and I have a full set of clubs, so those rules are not much of an issue for me. Actually I am wishing they would do this in PA.
Now I could see an argument that it is a richie-richie v. proletarian controversy since not everyone owns their own clubs, but I would classify this as a weak uniformed argument since most who golf have their own clubs. I have yet to meet anyone who golfs without his/her own clubs.
Actually the absurdity of this is rich where I live. I have a city owned course a block from my house, and they closed the course. Not only that, but they are having someone patrol the course every hour to make sure no one has come to play. However, since it is city owned and part of the Wissahickon Park, they cant stop you from hiking it. So, if I wanted to, I could hike the course and they couldn't do anything to stop me, but if I swung a club, I would get in trouble. LOL
PS: the idea that we should ban golf for the time being for solidarity with the country I feel is the equivalent to banning all sports just because head trauma is an issue with football. It makes no sense and strikes me as a reason all bureaucracies suck. Certain activities need to be banned right now, but others have a very low to zero cause for concern and should not be. My wife and I are planning a few bike rides this month on the nicer days. We may not be golfing, but we are not staying inside for the next month, and I dont know how anyone can expect anyone else to either.
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Anyway, should golf be banned?
Since women in Arizona are allowed to go to the hairdresser, I see no reason men in Arizona should not be allowed to play golf.
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Instead of a statement, here's an honest question for liberals and conservatives alike. (Even a few liberals play golf. Like Obama.)
My golf club has a policy of allowing people on the course but only if (a) you walk -- no carts, which could be contaminated. (b) You don't come within 6 yards of another golfer. (3) You have you bring your own clubs -- there are no people in the storage areas to retrieve them. You're allowed to use the practice chipping and putting areas if (a) you bring your own balls, and don't exchange balls with anyone, (b) you don't get within 6 yards of another player. Again, no carts.
Arizona (where I don't live) is currently having a controversy about golf courses being allowed to remain open. Do you think the courses should be closed as a matter of solidarity with the rest of the country which has no such outlet? Or that they should be allowed to remain open under conditions outlined above? Is this a richie-richie v. proletarian kind of controversy, even though the biggest golf courses around here are (a) public or (b) operated by casinos at cheap prices? Is this controversy aimed at Trump, who, by actual count, has been in office 1,167 days (as of April Fool's Day) and has, by actual count, on that day, played 117 rounds of golf at an approximate cost to the taxpayers of $133,000,000?* (There are actual websites who keep track of these things, easily found on the net.)
Anyway, should golf be banned?
We have a 9 hole course in my 55+ community. But I don't play golf. I assume some people here would play golf on their own when it gets a little warmer (NJ). There are people walking every morning in the streets but they stay away from each other. Bicyclists, dog walkers. I don't see the problem if you use common sense and stay away from everyone and don;t get into fights with other golfers. :) Of course, in a larger course there would be more activity. So that might be a problem.
Last week I went to a nearby public park to shoot some photos. I was by myself and stayed away from everyone. There were couples there, some families, single dog walkers. The playgrounds were taped off by the town bu some people were using them anyway. Of course, they may have changed the rules this week. I don't know. COnsidering how bad it is in NJ (worst place after NY), I might not go out to shoot. But there are lots of people out. Today, I went to pick up pre-order and paid for food curbside at an Italian grocer. We couldn't get anything from regular supermarkets but the smaller grocer was very accomodating and speedy. They brought the food out to my car in a wagon and I loaded the stuff into it wearing gloves. Frankly I wouldn't shop in a supermarket now. It's just too dangerous being around people, I feel. I spray all the bags with 91% isopropyl alcohol when I got home.
One advantage of playing golf with the new distances, no one can verify your score. :)
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Instead of a statement, here's an honest question for liberals and conservatives alike. (Even a few liberals play golf. Like Obama.)
My golf club has a policy of allowing people on the course but only if (a) you walk -- no carts, which could be contaminated. (b) You don't come within 6 yards of another golfer. (3) You have you bring your own clubs -- there are no people in the storage areas to retrieve them. You're allowed to use the practice chipping and putting areas if (a) you bring your own balls, and don't exchange balls with anyone, (b) you don't get within 6 yards of another player. Again, no carts.
Arizona (where I don't live) is currently having a controversy about golf courses being allowed to remain open. Do you think the courses should be closed as a matter of solidarity with the rest of the country which has no such outlet? Or that they should be allowed to remain open under conditions outlined above? Is this a richie-richie v. proletarian kind of controversy, even though the biggest golf courses around here are (a) public or (b) operated by casinos at cheap prices? Is this controversy aimed at Trump, who, by actual count, has been in office 1,167 days (as of April Fool's Day) and has, by actual count, on that day, played 117 rounds of golf at an approximate cost to the taxpayers of $133,000,000?* (There are actual websites who keep track of these things, easily found on the net.)
Anyway, should golf be banned?
I'm still thinking about your golf question but thought I'd mention that the US reached 1000+ deaths today according to Worldometer (see last chart on https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/ (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/)). You were speculating the other day that reaching this number might turn out to be a significant milestone. I hope it turns back down soon.
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Very sad indeed. Needless to say, I expect more.
Pennsylvania man who lost job amid coronavirus pandemic shoots girlfriend before killing self (https://www.foxnews.com/us/pennsylvania-coronavirus-man-injures-girlfriend-fatally-shoots-himself-losing-job)
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First, lets keep in mind Obama was an avid golfer as well, so I do not think it is fair to criticize Trump for playing. Nor do I feel we should criticize Obama either.
The problem is that *Trump* insisted on criticizing Obama for golfing.
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Very sad indeed. Needless to say, I expect more.
Pennsylvania man who lost job amid coronavirus pandemic shoots girlfriend before killing self (https://www.foxnews.com/us/pennsylvania-coronavirus-man-injures-girlfriend-fatally-shoots-himself-losing-job)
I’ll never understand why people feel the urge to take someone with them.
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I’ll never understand why people feel the urge to take someone with them.
Some were brainwashed by church that the next stop is heaven.
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I'm still thinking about your golf question but thought I'd mention that the US reached 1000+ deaths today according to Worldometer (see last chart on https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/ (https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/)). You were speculating the other day that reaching this number might turn out to be a significant milestone. I hope it turns back down soon.
Yeah, I saw that. And I saw it coming. It'll be 2,000 a day in less than a week.
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I’ll never understand why people feel the urge to take someone with them.
More to come
https://abc7.com/lomita-fatal-shooting-triple-homicide-3-men-killed/6061073/ (https://abc7.com/lomita-fatal-shooting-triple-homicide-3-men-killed/6061073/)
The RMS Titanic is starting to list, its lights flicker, its keel creak.
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Anyway, should golf be banned?
No, just close the 19th hole ...
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Hairdressers in Arizona, shootings in Penn. Tales of partying in Florida. Hairdressers in UK are shut, there will be lots of long hair soon.
Perhaps this is a reflection of different cultural attitudes and the level of state and federal control, e.g. the American cherished attitude to personal freedom vs the high level of state control in China.
Best wishes,
Jonathan
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... Anyway, should golf be banned?
Absolutely not. We need whatever we can to preserve some sense of normalcy.
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Very sad indeed. Needless to say, I expect more.
Pennsylvania man who lost job amid coronavirus pandemic shoots girlfriend before killing self (https://www.foxnews.com/us/pennsylvania-coronavirus-man-injures-girlfriend-fatally-shoots-himself-losing-job)
In Italy too... madness, mass hysteria continues:
https://www.foxnews.com/world/italian-nurse-killed-medic-girlfriend-falsely-claimed-she-gave-him-coronavirus-reports
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The problem is that *Trump* insisted on criticizing Obama for golfing.
Well, if that is the case, then ...
I'm not one for hypocrisy.
Here's the deal though, if who ever succeeds Trump criticizing him for golfing and then he/she golfs while in office, should it still be open season?
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Well this is interesting.
Prosecutors: Engineer deliberately ran train off tracks in attempt to smash the USNS Mercy (https://abc7.com/officials-engineer-tried-to-smash-train-into-usns-mercy/6069395/?fbclid=IwAR1ktxUoRLtTr8IklXiFk-kR90JQn9Os2aQPSHLUwqD4-6ndkzRDN033wgQ)
That's the military hospital ship sent to LA. Apparently this guy is one of those government conspiracy theorist that thinks there is always an alternate explanation for something. Thankfully he did not hit the ship.
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Well, if that is the case, then ...
I'm not one for hypocrisy.
Here's the deal though, if who ever succeeds Trump criticizing him for golfing and then he/she golfs while in office, should it still be open season?
Joe, you understand, of course, that - added to that hypocrisy - Trump only plays golf at his courses/resorts, with the resultant Secret Service accommodation and related costs going into his pockets? Sounds like a win all round! 8)
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Joe, you understand, of course, that - added to that hypocrisy - Trump only plays golf at his courses/resorts, with the resultant Secret Service and accommodation and related costs going into his pockets? Sounds like a win all round! 8)
But is he paying his own green fees?
Honestly, I have no issues with that.
Would you rather him fly to Pebble Beach every time he plays and we tax payers pay those, presumably, much higher fees?
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Joe, you understand, of course, that - added to that hypocrisy - Trump only plays golf at his courses/resorts, with the resultant Secret Service and accommodation and related costs going into his pockets? Sounds like a win all round! 8)
Where should he play golf? At someone else's golf course? Maybe Palm Beach County Municipal Golf COurse. Maybe he should rent a room and sleep at Hotel 6 when he goes home to NYC instead of his condo in the Trump Tower that he and his wife owns. When the Clintons bought their home in upper NYS, the Secret Service built additions to it at taxpayer cost. They added security fences, security cameras, and sleeping quarter for SS guards. It's standard practice. How much did the taxpayers pay every time Obama fly on Air Force One to his home in Hawaii with his family 6000 miles from DC to play golf and get some sun? It would have been cheaper if he rented a room in Florida at Trump's Mar-a-lago. The sun there is just as nice. You're just being petty and picky because you don't like Trump.
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Instead of a statement, here's an honest question for liberals and conservatives alike. (Even a few liberals play golf. Like Obama.)
My golf club has a policy of allowing people on the course but only if (a) you walk -- no carts, which could be contaminated. (b) You don't come within 6 yards of another golfer. (3) You have you bring your own clubs -- there are no people in the storage areas to retrieve them. You're allowed to use the practice chipping and putting areas if (a) you bring your own balls, and don't exchange balls with anyone, (b) you don't get within 6 yards of another player. Again, no carts.
Arizona (where I don't live) is currently having a controversy about golf courses being allowed to remain open. Do you think the courses should be closed as a matter of solidarity with the rest of the country which has no such outlet? Or that they should be allowed to remain open under conditions outlined above? Is this a richie-richie v. proletarian kind of controversy, even though the biggest golf courses around here are (a) public or (b) operated by casinos at cheap prices? Is this controversy aimed at Trump, who, by actual count, has been in office 1,167 days (as of April Fool's Day) and has, by actual count, on that day, played 117 rounds of golf at an approximate cost to the taxpayers of $133,000,000?* (There are actual websites who keep track of these things, easily found on the net.)
Anyway, should golf be banned?
The temptation for me is to say no. I don't play golf but the actual mechanics of it can be made consistent with physical distancing, it seems to me. So what can go wrong.
Hiking on forest trails is probably also as safe as can be. But in southwestern Ontario, local authorities had to shut down a Conservation Area last week (or maybe the week before, it's kind of a blur) because the spot attracted so many people that the parking lot overflowed and people were parking where they shouldn't, blocking access, etc. But also, with that many people access bottlenecks were being created at trail heads, outhouses, etc. Being spring, some spots were muddy and were being trampled. Lacking the staff to police all the sensitive spots, they chose to close the place down. So a relatively safe thing, hiking, was made relatively unsafe because of overuse, or so the people in charge judged. I'm sure many people were not happy with that decision.
(FYI, Conservation Areas are a designation used for semi-wilderness protected areas that can host picnicking, hiking, cross country skiing, rock climbing, soccer fields, canoeing, swimming, etc., depending on topography. They vary greatly in size and layout, but they all tend to be much bigger than what you'd normally think of as a park, some are bigger than golf courses.)
Not knowing much about golf, it seems that bottlenecks can occur before the first hole and after the last but that seems easy enough to manage, we do it in grocery stores every day. But compliance could ruin things. If a few people show up who haven't bought into the distancing thing and one is a carrier and inadvertently infects an innocent bystander and he brings the bug home, it's easy to imagine a bad sequence of events.
This can happen in a grocery store line too, of course. Except that at any one time, a grocery store contains a wide variety of people. A queue at the first hole only has golfers in it. If a non-complier (is that a word?) shows up, will people feel more or less reticent to voice their displeasure at the behaviour, seeing as how they are all part of the same "club". I don't know.
To my mind, a question of responsibility arises. If that bad sequence of events happened, would the golf course operators feel responsible for the bad outcome. I understand that the proximate cause of that kind of transmission is not the golf course rules, it is the people who were careless about distancing, but I can see a situation where some operators might feel as if they're partly to blame. Other operators might not. What might lead them to think one way or the other is probably affected by what's going on around them. If the golf course is in the middle of nowhere in Arizona or Utah, and only 13 Covid-19 cases exist in the immediate area, that's one thing. But if we get to the point that 2000 people are dying every day and the hospitals are backed up, then the operators of a golf course in a Connecticut suburb might see things differently. In that latter case, anything that could remotely be seen as a risk would be frowned upon by a lot of people.
The governor of Florida only yesterday decided to implement distancing directives to the entire state. So presumably, a few golfers in northern Florida on Tuesday might have been emboldened to flaunt distancing guidelines. One of them could easily have passed on the bug, this at a time when a lot of the rest of the world knew better. Who would be responsible in such a case, the unknown (even to himself) contagious guy, the golf course operators, the governor?
I don't know if I can make a general call on the question in the absence of context. What's acceptable social behaviour on Monday might change by Friday. Everyone has and wants rights, but humans tend to be a bit more confused about responsibilities, especially if it costs them something.
(As an aside and unrelated to your question, one of the episodes from Malcolm Gladwell's Revisionist History podcast concerned the private golf courses in Los Angeles and how they enjoyed all kinds of benefits that were grandfathered in from a different era. It was an interesting discussion. (From season 2 episode 1: http://revisionisthistory.com/episodes/11-a-good-walk-spoiled (http://revisionisthistory.com/episodes/11-a-good-walk-spoiled), available widely.)
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Where should he play golf? At someone else's golf course? Maybe Palm Beach County Municipal Golf COurse. Maybe he should rent a room and sleep at Hotel 6 when he goes home to NYC instead of his condo in the Trump Tower that he and his wife owns. When the Clintons bought their home in upper NYS, the Secret Service built additions to it at taxpayer cost. They added security fences, security cameras, and sleeping quarter for SS guards. It's standard practice. How much did the taxpayers pay every time Obama fly on Air Force One to his home in Hawaii with his family 6000 miles from DC to play golf and get some sun? It would have been cheaper if he rented a room in Florida at Trump's Mar-a-lago. The sun there is just as nice. You're just being petty and picky because you don't like Trump.
Trump castigates Obama for playing golf. (https://www.sbnation.com/golf/2017/3/27/15073086/donald-trump-tweets-barack-obama-golf)
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Joe, you understand, of course, that - added to that hypocrisy - Trump only plays golf at his courses/resorts, with the resultant Secret Service accommodation and related costs going into his pockets? Sounds like a win all round! 8)
Ethics are for lesser men.
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Where should he play golf? At someone else's golf course? Maybe Palm Beach County Municipal Golf COurse. Maybe he should rent a room and sleep at Hotel 6 when he goes home to NYC instead of his condo in the Trump Tower that he and his wife owns. When the Clintons bought their home in upper NYS, the Secret Service built additions to it at taxpayer cost. They added security fences, security cameras, and sleeping quarter for SS guards. It's standard practice. How much did the taxpayers pay every time Obama fly on Air Force One to his home in Hawaii with his family 6000 miles from DC to play golf and get some sun? It would have been cheaper if he rented a room in Florida at Trump's Mar-a-lago. The sun there is just as nice. You're just being petty and picky because you don't like Trump.
Perhaps I am Alan, but it is astonishing to see your Pavlov-like defence of him, it is very difficult to understand....
Bye the way, further to the link to the New Yorker article I posted the other day, someone else has picked up on the "viral dose" theme. It certainly makes sense to me as a layman... https://nyti.ms/2w9Uzsy
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Well, this is working out ... if you're into setting records.
Unemployment claims spiked to new record last week, with 6.6M Americans filing for aid (https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/us-unemployment-claims-march-coronavirus-economy)
And I thought 3M was high the week prior.
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Well, this is working out ... if you're into setting records.
Unemployment claims spiked to new record last week, with 6.6M Americans filing for aid (https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy/us-unemployment-claims-march-coronavirus-economy)
And I thought 3M was high the week prior.
Two kinds of suffering obviously. Economic suffering is frequently dismissed by people, people who aren’t suffering the consequences of it. Anyone who has ever been actually poor will know it’s debilitating and the consequences can be felt for generations as the harm manifests in behavioral disfunction that can be passed on.
I really hope the various stimulus packages end up doing real good and help the people who need it. It’s very disturbing.
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Two kinds of suffering obviously. Economic suffering is frequently dismissed by people, people who aren’t suffering the consequences of it. Anyone who has ever been actually poor will know it’s debilitating and the consequences can be felt for generations as the harm manifests in behavioral disfunction that can be passed on.
I really hope the various stimulus packages end up doing real good and help the people who need it. It’s very disturbing.
Unfortunately the stimulus seems to always end up in the big corporations hands...not the poor that need it just to survive.
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In other records, it looks like we got a whole bunch of new 2nd amendment supporters last month.
March blows past record for gun background checks amid coronavirus pandemic (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/march-gun-background-checks-amid-coronavirus-pandemic)
"The FBI ran more than 3.7 million gun background checks on Americans under the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) in March, smashing the previous record as Americans armed themselves amid growing fears about the coronavirus pandemic."
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Absolutely not. We need whatever we can to preserve some sense of normalcy.
And you believe that knocking a tiny ball from one hole to another with a tool that could not have been less appropriate for the task is normal behaviour?
Worse, do you believe that knocking a ball from hole to hole with anything constitutes normal behaviour? Why would you do that?
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Some were brainwashed by church that the next stop is heaven.
Hold your horses; it all depends on what kind of cat you have been when you check out. It's not a given.
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In other records, it looks like we got a whole bunch of new 2nd amendment supporters last month.
March blows past record for gun background checks amid coronavirus pandemic (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/march-gun-background-checks-amid-coronavirus-pandemic)
"The FBI ran more than 3.7 million gun background checks on Americans under the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) in March, smashing the previous record as Americans armed themselves amid growing fears about the coronavirus pandemic."
Isn't that the solution to all problems...buy more guns. Really baffles my mind.
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And you believe that knocking a tiny ball from one hole to another with a tool that could not have been less appropriate for the task is normal behaviour?
Worse, do you believe that knocking a ball from hole to hole with anything constitutes normal behaviour? Why would you do that?
Once again, none of your or mine business what people decide to do with their own time and money.
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Isn't that the solution to all problems...buy more guns. Really baffles my mind.
Why? Perfectly rational reaction.
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Once again, none of your or mine business what people decide to do with their own time and money.
Nothing to do with that: all to do with the logic of the doing.
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Isn't that the solution to all problems...buy more guns. Really baffles my mind.
Well when democratic mayors and governors began this thing by emptying out the prisons, I am feeling like maybe I should have bought a 12 gauge.
Why you would let criminals out and not think bad things will happen really baffles my mind.
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And you believe that knocking a tiny ball from one hole to another with a tool that could not have been less appropriate for the task is normal behaviour?
Worse, do you believe that knocking a ball from hole to hole with anything constitutes normal behaviour? Why would you do that?
Well, it is pretty challenging. And when you are focusing on trying to do that, you are not focusing on your problems, like you just lost your job, or your health insurance lapses at the end of the month, or you are overdrawn at the bank and you have maxed out your credit cards, or your wife is having an affair with the pool boy, or Trump is the White House during a pandemic, etc., so it does provide some mental relief.
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Why? Perfectly rational reaction.
Rational for irrational people...sure.
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Why? Perfectly rational reaction.
Absolutely; just like taking an aspirin if you think you might have had unprotected sex. You'd be much better off with one of those extra guns.
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Up to a point, Slobodan. It they use their own time and money to get near me and infect me, then it is definitely my business and, I hope, that of the society in which we live.
Jonathan
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Well, it is pretty challenging. And when you are focusing on trying to do that, you are not focusing on your problems, like you just lost your job, or your health insurance lapses at the end of the month, or you are overdrawn at the bank and you have maxed out your credit cards, or your wife is having an affair with the pool boy, or Trump is the White House during a pandemic, etc., so it does provide some mental relief.
So you have no job, you can't pay your health insurance, you are overdrawn on your bank account, and have maxed out your credit cards...but somehow you can find the money ( some courses very expensive ) to pay for the green fees.
Yeh...maybe that's why your financial situation is all f'ckd up.
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Up to a point, Slobodan. It they use their own time and money to get near me and infect me, then it is definitely my business and, I hope, that of the society in which we live.
Jonathan
Aha! So that's what the extra gun's for: defence! Not sure why the first gun wasn't good enough; after all, 007 managed with just one at a time.
:-)
FWIW, I awoke to brilliant sunlight, did the washing this morning instead of waiting for Saturday (which the weather forecadt told me would be sunny), and shortly after I got home from the post office it started to rain and then hail. And it has become quite chilly again.
Global warming is sending all those melting ice blocks down in my direction.
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So you have no job, you can't pay your health insurance, you are overdrawn on your bank account, and have maxed out your credit cards...but somehow you can find the money ( some courses very expensive ) to pay for the green fees.
Yeh...maybe that's why your financial situation is all f'ckd up.
A lot of the things we do in life are not rational. For example: arguing about politics on a photography forum.
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Up to a point, Slobodan. It they use their own time and money to get near me and infect me, then it is definitely my business and, I hope, that of the society in which we live.
Jonathan
That tells a lot about the society one lives in.
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Up to a point, Slobodan. It they use their own time and money to get near me and infect me, then it is definitely my business and, I hope, that of the society in which we live.
Jonathan
If you are so concerned about it, why not just stay off the golf course? Kind of an easy solution.
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All of you armchair philosophers from abroad... you do not know, nor understand the situation in the States. I have friends from Chicago who are buying guns for the first time (a mother of three). If you think things are hypothetical, just remember there were race riots before (LA). Couple that with possible hunger and lack of everything among the poor, regardless of race, and you'd understand the possibility of another race/class riots, and the need to protect yourself and your family.
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If you are so concerned about it, why not just stay off the golf course? Kind of an easy solution.
Maybe, but I bet some dead grandmas didn't go to spring break in Florida. :)
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All of you armchair philosophers from abroad... you do not know, nor understand the situation in the States. I have friends from Chicago who are buying guns for the first time (a mother of three). If you think things are hypothetical, just remember there were race riots before (LA). Couple that with possible hunger and lack of everything among the poor, regardless of race, and you'd understand the possibility of another race/class riots, and the need to protect yourself and your family.
Sure, because these problems are not known elsewhere.
I hope your friend knows how to shoot, buying the gun may be the easy part.
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If you are so concerned about it, why not just stay off the golf course? Kind of an easy solution.
Rather, the asshole who doesn't get social distancing should get off. It's like suggesting you should stay off the street (in normal times) because some idiot with a camera is having a reportage wet dream about you: on the contrary, the nut with the camera should be off that street if he is rude enough to shoot you uninvited because of his ego and his largely imaginary art.
:-)
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All of you armchair philosophers from abroad... you do not know, nor understand the situation in the States. I have friends from Chicago who are buying guns for the first time (a mother of three). If you think things are hypothetical, just remember there were race riots before (LA). Couple that with possible hunger and lack of everything among the poor, regardless of race, and you'd understand the possibility of another race/class riots, and the need to protect yourself and your family.
We understand that too many people in the States have too many guns.
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Rather, the asshole who doesn't get social distancing should get off. It's like suggesting you should stay off the street (in normal times) because some idiot with a camera is having a reportage wet dream about you: on the contrary, the nut with the camera should be off that street if he is rude enough to shoot you uninvited because of his ego and his largely imaginary art.
:-)
OT, I like your concept of imaginary art. I wonder if it is worthy of its own thread. Enough there to talk about or is it just cabin fever talking?
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All of you armchair philosophers from abroad... you do not know, nor understand the situation in the States. I have friends from Chicago who are buying guns for the first time (a mother of three). If you think things are hypothetical, just remember there were race riots before (LA). Couple that with possible hunger and lack of everything among the poor, regardless of race, and you'd understand the possibility of another race/class riots, and the need to protect yourself and your family.
Says a lot about society as most of the world are having these same problems of losing jobs, being holed up at home, wondering how they'll feed their families etc..., but don't solve the problems with guns.
Like I said it seems the solution in the US to any problem is guns.
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Maybe, but I bet some dead grandmas didn't go to spring break in Florida. :)
Grandmas don't need to visit their idiot grandchildren.
Not to mention, I don't many golfers that roll onto the course expecting to throw a kegger with wet t-shirt contests and mosh pits.
Perhaps John Daly.
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All of you armchair philosophers from abroad... you do not know, nor understand the situation in the States. I have friends from Chicago who are buying guns for the first time (a mother of three). If you think things are hypothetical, just remember there were race riots before (LA). Couple that with possible hunger and lack of everything among the poor, regardless of race, and you'd understand the possibility of another race/class riots, and the need to protect yourself and your family.
Yes, it's a real fear, I accept that. There have been riots in the streets of the UK too, and Spain has had its civil war - a lot closer to now than the one in your adopted country. France has its gilets jaunes; violence is nothing new: the problem with the States is that everybody has gun overload. I think a baseball bat is a better weapon than a knife. Unfortunately, guns are deployed to make mistakes, too. And a bat wouldn't be much use against one of those weapons.
Now, whether being poor or rich makes any difference if the shelves are empty is another matter.
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Grandmas don't need to visit their idiot grandchildren.
Little insensitive there Joe. There are many families where the grand parents live with their children or being taken care of by their children.
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Says a lot about society as most of the world are having these same problems of losing jobs, being holed up at home, wondering how they'll feed their families etc..., but don't solve the problems with guns.
Like I said it seems the solution in the US to any problem is guns.
Answer me this, are other countries letting criminals in jail out onto the street because of this?
And I dont mean petty criminals. Sex offenders, rapists, domestic violence offenders, assault preps, etc. are being let out right now. That is not a very reassuring action.
By the way, I really don't think someone who has never shot a gun should be using this as an excuse to go out and buy one. I can see many accidental shootings happening due to this.
FYI, for any new gun owners out there, remember, keep your booger hook off the bang switch till you ready to bring the hate, please.
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Little insensitive there Joe. There are many families where the grand parents live with their children or being taken care of by their children.
Grandchildren don't have to be let back in. Problem solved.
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A lot of the things we do in life are not rational. For example: arguing about politics on a photography forum.
This is not new. Once upon a time on another photo site, I think it was Photosig, they had a "coffee corner" and the discussion turn to the Iraq war and the politics of same. To say it got heated would be an understatement. As a result about 20 of the members of both political stripes made a forum on Delphi to continue. From that forum I now have 6 really good friends from around the country and we all get together every year or so. With some its almost daily contact still. Without a political discussion on a photo website I never wouhld have had these friends. Maybe its that you can only talk about the latest lens or camera body for so long:)
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... By the way, I really dont think someone who have never shot of gun should be using this as an excuse to go out and buy one...
The friend I mentioned underwent training and licensing, before buying a gun.
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Grandchildren don't have to be let back in. Problem solved.
True; they can go visit all those kindly peadophiles being released. That'll be fun.
I told you the lunatics were running the American Asylum.
:-)
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Little insensitive there Joe. There are many families where the grand parents live with their children or being taken care of by their children.
My 90 YO mother lives with us, and aside from our age and medical history, keeping mom from getting the virus is a major part of why we prepared and continue to stay isolated. I know I can't be alone in thinking like this.
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True; they can go visit all those kindly peadophiles being released. That'll be fun.
I told you the lunatics were running the American Asylum.
:-)
Pedophiles aren't interested in Spring Breakers, sadly, and if they were, it wouldn't be illegal.
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Grandmas don't need to visit their idiot grandchildren.
Not to mention, I don't many golfers that roll onto the course expecting to throw a kegger with wet t-shirt contests and mosh pits.
Perhaps John Daly.
Yes, of course, it's a given that if everyone behaved responsibly there would be fewer problems. But you were the one who has said all along that the rebellious US population will refuse to be controlled. Ok fine, I get it, so what do you do then if you are the civil authority trying to prevent further contagion. At some point, if things get too hairy, you may have to shut down everything by force of law. How does that get you what you want?
You seem to approach everything from the point of view that individual personal freedom is at the top of the hierarchy. Some of the time it is, even most of the time, but sometimes it just isn't. One's personal desire to play a round of golf may not always be the most important issue. It doesn't strike me that not being able to play for a while is a very serious blow to personal freedom.
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Grandchildren don't have to be let back in. Problem solved.
And where would these grandchildren go...live out in the streets? Think about it Joe...there are many families out there with 3 generations living together. I grew up with my grandfather living in our house.
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By the way, can anyone remember the last time they heard "Make America Great Again" being said on their tv set?
Just asking.
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By the way, can anyone remember the last time they heard "Make Ametica Great Again" being said on their tv set?
Just asking.
Nah...he already accomplished that last year.
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...It doesn't strike me that not being able to play for a while is a very serious blow to personal freedom.
I may or may not be, but at the same time it is not a very serious blow to the efforts to prevent the spread either. It seems to me that the rationale behind the urge to ban it is simply spite.
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Pedophiles aren't interested in Spring Breakers, sadly, and if they were, it wouldn't be illegal.
America must be stranger than I'd thought: the first time I was a grandchild I was barely (pun intended) seconds old. I still am a grandchild, more than eighty years later. Peter Pan, eat your heart out.
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Yes, of course, it's a given that if everyone behaved responsibly there would be fewer problems. But you were the one who has said all along that the rebellious US population will refuse to be controlled. Ok fine, I get it, so what do you do then if you are the civil authority trying to prevent further contagion. At some point, if things get too hairy, you may have to shut down everything by force of law. How does that get you what you want?
You seem to approach everything from the point of view that individual personal freedom is at the top of the hierarchy. Some of the time it is, even most of the time, but sometimes it just isn't. One's personal desire to play a round of golf may not always be the most important issue. It doesn't strike me that not being able to play for a while is a very serious blow to personal freedom.
Sorry Rob, but this makes no sense.
Playing golf on a 100 to 200 acre park, essentially, by yourself or standing 6 yards from another person is a hell of a lot different then partying on a beach during Spring Break.
Using the moronic activities of Spring Breakers as a reason to shut down all activities, even ones with a near zero chance of spreading the virus, is either an act of total stupidity or some pathetic party ideological bull shit.
On top of that, Golfers are not going to interact with a litany of people during their game like a spring breaker would buying drinks and food. Most will just show up with their own bag, clubs, balls, glove, their own drinks (whatever that may be) and aside from paying the green fees will not talk to a damn person other then someone who is playing with them.
This is has already trekked into the realm of stupidity, and if it continues anymore, then yes, Americans are not going to pay attention to it. Especially considering we are all at home without any work getting bored out of our minds and antsy.
Seriously, you think you can take away all activities, pleasures and work from people, and then expect them to stay inside indefinitely? Dont be foolish.
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By the way, can anyone remember the last time they heard "Make Ametica Great Again" being said on their tv set?
Just asking.
LOL!
Same goes for Let's get Brexit done.
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Answer me this, are other countries letting criminals in jail out onto the street because of this?
And I dont mean petty criminals. Sex offenders, rapists, domestic violence offenders, assault preps, etc. are being let out right now. That is not a very reassuring action.
By the way, I really don't think someone who has never shot a gun should be using this as an excuse to go out and buy one. I can see many accidental shootings happening due to this.
FYI, for any new gun owners out there, remember, keep your booger hook off the bang switch till you ready to bring the hate, please.
Part of being a responsible gun owner is training and continued learning a practice. My wife and I took a number of classes before we ever bought a gun. In Indiana there is no training requirement to become a concealed carry permit holder so we took that upon ourselves. Not everyone does and I'm really in favor of having a training component to gun ownership. In addition you need regular range time to keep your skills and formost your safety training current. Thats why I belong to the Isaak Walton in my area so I have, in part, unlimited access to the rifle and pistol range.
That said and evenwith our continuing efforts to stay current, neith my wife nor I know what we would actually do in an emergency situation and being faced with discharging a weapon towards another human. I would hope that if my or my family lives were in danger I could protect them if needed. But unless I'm faced directly with that situation I'll never know. I hope beyond hope that I never have to make that decision.
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I may or may not be, but at the same time it is not a very serious blow to the efforts to prevent the spread either. It seems to me that the rationale behind the urge to ban it is simply spite.
I don't know what you mean by spite.
But as I said in another post, I think it's time and place dependent. I would say that it is the responsibility of those trying to ban these things to explain the rationale, keeping in mind that as you and others have said/implied, people can't be trusted to do the right thing on their own.
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Part of being a responsible gun owner is training and continued learning a practice. My wife and I took a number of classes before we ever bought a gun. In Indiana there is no training requirement to become a concealed carry permit holder so we took that upon ourselves. Not everyone does and I'm really in favor of having a training component to gun ownership. In addition you need regular range time to keep your skills and formost your safety training current. Thats why I belong to the Isaak Walton in my area so I have, in part, unlimited access to the rifle and pistol range.
That said and evenwith our continuing efforts to stay current, neith my wife nor I know what we would actually do in an emergency situation and being faced with discharging a weapon towards another human. I would hope that if my or my family lives were in danger I could protect them if needed. But unless I'm faced directly with that situation I'll never know. I hope beyond hope that I never have to make that decision.
I certainly agree with this.
My issue is there are probably a lot of people out there that bought a gun for the first time last month, and since all non-essential businesses are closed, have had neither the training nor any practice.
Like I said, I can see more then one of these recent gun owners walking around the house with a load gun holding it with their finger on the trigger (because that is how it is done in the movies) and accidentally discharging it.
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Sorry Rob, but this makes no sense.
Playing golf on a 100 to 200 acre park, essentially, by yourself or standing 6 yards from another person is a hell of a lot different then partying on a beach during Spring Break.
Using the moronic activities of Spring Breakers as a reason to shut down all activities, even ones with a near zero chance of spreading the virus, is either an act of total stupidity or some pathetic party ideological bull shit.
On top of that, Golfers are not going to interact with a litany of people during their game like a spring breaker would buying drinks and food. Most will just show up with their own bag, clubs, balls, glove, their own drinks (whatever that may be) and aside from paying the green fees will not talk to a damn person other then someone who is playing with them.
This is has already trekked into the realm of stupidity, and if it continues anymore, then yes, Americans are not going to pay attention to it. Especially considering we are all at home without any work getting bored out of our minds and antsy.
We're going in circles. Everything you say is true, until it isn't. What a community allows or doesn't allow is time and place dependent.
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I may or may not be, but at the same time it is not a very serious blow to the efforts to prevent the spread either. It seems to me that the rationale behind the urge to ban it is simply spite.
Why spite? Do you imagine it's a class thing, golf? My son played it when he was a humble assistant chef without a half-penny to spare, and finding time-slots in which to do that, and socialise in other ways too, was why a few years later he changed career.
Today, he's in self-imposed lockdown as his wife is confined to the bedroom, being recently released from hospital after a dose of Corinne Corona. I suppose he could always play the radio if he feels at a loose end. Or go shopping for essentials, one essential per trip. He has a nice car - may as well use it and keep the battery charged, this cold weather.
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We're going in circles. Everything you say is true, until it isn't. What a community allows or doesn't allow is time and place dependent.
Great platitude!
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And where would these grandchildren go...live out in the streets? Think about it Joe...there are many families out there with 3 generations living together. I grew up with my grandfather living in our house.
Welcome to adulthood, where your actions have consequences!
If the adult grandchild (remember spring breakers are adults) is stupid enough to go to Spring Break, then that is his/her problem to figure out.
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This is has already trekked into the realm of stupidity, and if it continues anymore, then yes, Americans are not going to pay attention to it. Especially considering we are all at home without any work getting bored out of our minds and antsy.
Oh I bet those Americans that are getting bored sitting at home would love that privilege when they are fighting for their life on a ventilator.
Being bored is such a selfish excuse...it boggles my mind.
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America must be stranger than I'd thought: the first time I was a grandchild I was barely (pun intended) seconds old. I still am a grandchild, more than eighty years later. Peter Pan, eat your heart out.
I have no idea what you are trying to imply here.
We started this comparing Spring Breakers (college aged persons who go to some warm place to party in March) vs. golfers. Spring Breakers are by definition adults, albeit young. Pedophiles by definition prefer children, not adults.
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I have no idea what you are trying to imply here.
We started this comparing Spring Breakers (college aged persons who go to some warm place to party in March) vs. golfers. Spring Breakers are by definition adults, albeit young. Pedophiles by definition prefer children, not adults.
Spring breakers? They are irrelevant to my point, and I made no reference to them; the reference I made was to the state if being a grandchild, which one way or another, every one of us has to be.
An interesting philosophical/religious question might be if a foetus is a grandchild. Or if being pre-foetal by a week or two entitles one to legal protection or otherwise.
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I don't know what you mean by spite...
Simple. Although playing golf under the reasonable precautionary measures already described have zero to very little chance of doing any public harm, we can't let rich people have any fun while the rest suffer. That's spite.
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Oh I bet those Americans that are getting bored sitting at home would love that privilege when they are fighting for their life on a ventilator.
Being bored is such a selfish excuse...it boggles my mind.
LOL.
As Slobo pointed out, this really is looking like spite, that or a total failure on your part to actually think through individual issues, as classic problem with all bureaucracies I admit.
What comes next? Should I no longer be allowed to sit on my porch and have a drink or a cigar? How about being outside to garden? Those with dogs, should they go back to letting it crap on old news papers in the corner? And if you cant leave your house, where do you get news papers when they run out?
This is all becoming stupid, real fast. This is why people, in the USA at least, dont like government.
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Great platitude!
Relax already.
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I certainly agree with this.
My issue is there are probably a lot of people out there that bought a gun for the first time last month, and since all non-essential businesses are closed, have had neither the training nor any practice.
Like I said, I can see more then one of these recent gun owners walking around the house with a load gun holding it with their finger on the trigger (because that is how it is done in the movies) and accidentally discharging it.
Yea, a lot of this buying is dangerous and will result in accidents. One of my firends hasa a business in Illinois doing training for concealed carry ( required in IL) He has a lot of contacts with local and national gun dealers. One local guy said some people were buying any gun that the dealer had ammo for. He used the example of a woman buying a Ruger LCR in .38. This is a nice, really compact polymer handgun used for highly concealed carry. The problem is its really hard to use comfortably. Its small, hard to hold with any comfort and it kicks like a mule becsue of the very short barrel and light weight. We had one for a time but I was only good for about 6 rounds at the range because it just flat out hurt. We bought it for my wife but she hated it and never carries. Sold it andf got her a Ruger GP100 revolver in .357 instead. Big heavy firearm, longer barrel and is quite comfortable to shoot. She needs a revolver because her hand strength is not enough to rack the slide of a semi automatic pistol.
The point here is too many folks making life and petentially death choices with little or no understanding and as much as I favor the 2A, this is not a good situation.
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Simple. Although playing golf under the reasonable precautionary measures already described have zero to very little chance of doing any public harm, we can't let rich people have any fun while the rest suffer. That's spite.
Oh please, put it back in your pants. A lot of non-rich people work at golf courses. This isn't a back door to let in Stalin's great grandkids. :)
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Boy we are all bored today 8). You write a post and the warning box comes up and says there were 8 new posts while you were typing ..lol
Its nice, sunny and warm here today. I already took the dogs for a walk around the block and I think I'll do some yard work...
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... What comes next? Should I no longer be allowed to sit on my porch and have a drink or a cigar?...
Oh, how bourgeois!. Or boujee, as today's kids call it.
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...You write a post and the warning box comes up and says there were 8 new posts while you were typing ..lol
Its nice, sunny and warm here today. I already took the dogs for a walk around the block and I think I'll do some yard work...
That's why I turned that feature off ;)
As for sunny day... it is already curfew where I am (past 5pm), so I must post. Or go crazy.
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LOL.
As Slobo pointed out, this really is looking like spite, that or a total failure on your part to actually think through individual issues, as classic problem with all bureaucracies I admit.
What comes next? Should I no longer be allowed to sit on my porch and have a drink or a cigar? How about being outside to garden? Those with dogs, should they go back to letting it crap on old news papers in the corner? And if you cant leave your house, where do you get news papers when they run out?
This is all becoming stupid, real fast. This is why people, in the USA at least, dont like government.
Few people anywhere like government. Mostly, you have to pay it money. Sometimes, however much money you pay it, you are still left to die on the street because you can't afford a doctor or a medical drug, or there just aren't sufficient supplies. Also, as you pay more, the weekly rate of garbage collections goes down. Was a time households were neat, and leafy suburban roads were too. These days, they are filled with ugly containers for divided garbage. I used to think that was why we paid our town halls: to handle garbage collection, segregation and disposal.
I can see it, shortages, coming here in Spain, even for everyday pills. I note that my renewals for permanent heart meds are now changing from brand to brand, whereas before the virus, it was almost always the same brand. I get the feeling that supplies for everything are on a just-in-time basis these days, and the slightest hiccup throws it out of synch, and this ain't no hiccup.
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This is all becoming stupid, real fast. This is why people, in the USA at least, dont like government.
Yeh...the Wild Wild West...everyone buy a gun and rule their perch.
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Yeh...the Wild Wild West...everyone buy a gun and rule their perch.
BTW, you still have not answered my question.
Where you live, are they emptying the prisons of pretty much every criminal except only those who have committed murder?
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I can see it coming here in Spain, even for everyday pills. I note that my renewals for permanent heart meds are now changing from brand to brand, whereas before the virus, it was almost always the same brand. I get the feeling thst supplies for everything are on a just-in-time basis these days, and the slightest hiccup throws it out if synch, and this ain't no hiccup.
Most medicine comes from either China or India so I can see there being a hiccup with supply. Hopefully with China getting back to production things get back to normal supply of drugs.
My wife has Parkinson's and needed to change brands of her drugs. She definitely saw a difference with the new brand, and not in a good way. Pharmacies have strict distribution of the drugs ensuring no hoarding takes place.
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Instead of a statement, here's an honest question for liberals and conservatives alike. (Even a few liberals play golf. Like Obama.)
My golf club has a policy of allowing people on the course but only if (a) you walk -- no carts, which could be contaminated. (b) You don't come within 6 yards of another golfer. (3) You have you bring your own clubs -- there are no people in the storage areas to retrieve them. You're allowed to use the practice chipping and putting areas if (a) you bring your own balls, and don't exchange balls with anyone, (b) you don't get within 6 yards of another player. Again, no carts.
Arizona (where I don't live) is currently having a controversy about golf courses being allowed to remain open. Do you think the courses should be closed as a matter of solidarity with the rest of the country which has no such outlet? Or that they should be allowed to remain open under conditions outlined above? Is this a richie-richie v. proletarian kind of controversy, even though the biggest golf courses around here are (a) public or (b) operated by casinos at cheap prices? Is this controversy aimed at Trump, who, by actual count, has been in office 1,167 days (as of April Fool's Day) and has, by actual count, on that day, played 117 rounds of golf at an approximate cost to the taxpayers of $133,000,000?* (There are actual websites who keep track of these things, easily found on the net.)
Anyway, should golf be banned?
Please, please don't ask any more questions about golf. :)
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BTW, you still have not answered my question.
Where you live, are they emptying the prisons of pretty much every criminal except only those who have committed murder?
Nope...nothing that stupid. But don't forget there were already way more guns sold in the US than people in the US way before this virus came around. This gun fetish has nothing to do with the virus...the virus is just another excuse to feed that fetish.
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And you believe that knocking a tiny ball from one hole to another with a tool that could not have been less appropriate for the task is normal behaviour?
Worse, do you believe that knocking a ball from hole to hole with anything constitutes normal behaviour? Why would you do that?
I was a serious golfer for quite a while and I think your question could actually be extended to "Why would you play anything with a ball of any shape?" If you can find a reason for one of them, you have a reason for all. I played several ball sports (base-, basket- and foot-) and none were as compelling as golf. With golf, you rely on nobody but yourself; there are no excuses (the other guy played bad.) And odd as it seems, a golf ball always does what you fear, and it's interesting to find out how deeply and easily you fear.
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Absolutely; just like taking an aspirin if you think you might have had unprotected sex. You'd be much better off with one of those extra guns.
I did that. The aspirin thing. Helps with the headache.
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The friend I mentioned underwent training and licensing, before buying a gun.
I'm pretty fascinated by the gun thing. I can tell you without even knowing her that her training sucks and won't much help if she needs to use the gun. If you look at police shootings, even in good departments, most of them are fuck-ups. Even though they go through extensive training and are usually required to re-qualify with their weapons every year, cops still screw the pooch if they get in an actual shootout or dangerous situation. They fire wildly, they kill and wound innocent people, they kill fellow officers, and occasionally they kill an actual miscreant, who, more often than not, committed shoplifting. (Okay, I exaggerate a bit.) The fact remains that very little gun training actually prepares people to use a gun in a dangerous situation. (I should insert here that I'm licensed for concealed carry, because I wanted to go through the process for my job, although I only actually carried for one day and never did see anyone I felt free to shoot.) But: here in the states, there's this SHTF fantasy -- the Shit Hits the Fan, when society breaks down and everybody needs a black rifle and 10,000 rounds, minimum. There are entire racks of magazines devoted to the subject, and to what you should have in your bug-out bag, and whether your combat knife should be titanium or steel, and exactly which of 400 options you should whet your knife with.
Getting to the current rush of buyers, I suspect -- no way to prove it -- that 90% of the buyers already have a gun, and, most likely, several guns. It's a way of thinking. It may be nuts, but there it is.
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All of you armchair philosophers from abroad... you do not know, nor understand the situation in the States. I have friends from Chicago who are buying guns for the first time (a mother of three). If you think things are hypothetical, just remember there were race riots before (LA). Couple that with possible hunger and lack of everything among the poor, regardless of race, and you'd understand the possibility of another race/class riots, and the need to protect yourself and your family.
Slobodan, I live in a country where the demographics are pretty much the opposite of the States and I'm sure I don't need to explain the recent racial history of South Africa to anyone.. and yet, the last thought that would have come to my mind would be to go out and buy a gun. Not one person I know has even mentioned the idea....
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I'm pretty fascinated by the gun thing. I can tell you without even knowing her that her training sucks and won't much help if she needs to use the gun. If you look at police shootings, even in good departments, most of them are fuck-ups. Even though they go through extensive training and are usually required to re-qualify with their weapons every year, cops still screw the pooch if they get in an actual shootout or dangerous situation. They fire wildly, they kill and wound innocent people, they kill fellow officers, and occasionally they kill an actual miscreant, who, more often than not, committed shoplifting. (Okay, I exaggerate a bit.) The fact remains that very little gun training actually prepares people to use a gun in a dangerous situation. (I should insert here that I'm licensed for concealed carry, because I wanted to go through the process for my job, although I only actually carried for one day and never did see anyone I felt free to shoot.) But: here in the states, there's this SHTF fantasy -- the Shit Hits the Fan, when society breaks down and everybody needs a black rifle and 10,000 rounds, minimum. There are entire racks of magazines devoted to the subject, and to what you should have in your bug-out bag, and whether your combat knife should be titanium or steel, and exactly which of 400 options you should whet your knife with.
Getting to the current rush of buyers, I suspect -- no way to prove it -- that 90% of the buyers already have a gun, and, most likely, several guns. It's a way of thinking. It may be nuts, but there it is.
Aw geez, I take it back, golf was better.
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If you want some masks, you might need to contact NFL teams, https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/04/02/nation/kraft-family-used-patriots-team-plane-shuttle-protective-masks-china-boston-wsj-reports/
(https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/04/02/nation/kraft-family-used-patriots-team-plane-shuttle-protective-masks-china-boston-wsj-reports/). Maybe they'll brand them with team logos.
You know, maybe that's not so crazy. Designer masks, team masks, MAGA masks, goofy masks with tubes leading up to a beer can in a hat...
I apologize, going stir crazy. But in the past, whenever I've come up with lame crazy-ass idea, there was already a web site about it with a fan club and swag for sale. What I'm saying, I'm usually the last one to think of something.
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If you want some masks, you might need to contact NFL teams, https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/04/02/nation/kraft-family-used-patriots-team-plane-shuttle-protective-masks-china-boston-wsj-reports/
(https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/04/02/nation/kraft-family-used-patriots-team-plane-shuttle-protective-masks-china-boston-wsj-reports/). Maybe they'll brand them with team logos.
You know, maybe that's not so crazy. Designer masks, team masks, MAGA masks, goofy masks with tubes leading up to a beer can in a hat...
I apologize, going stir crazy. But in the past, whenever I've come up with lame crazy-ass idea, there was already a web site about it with a fan club and swag for sale. What I'm saying, I'm usually the last one to think of something.
I got my marketing swag idea for the year!
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I got my marketing swag idea for the year!
Noooo, don't listen to me! I still can't understand why people want so many cell phones.
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Noooo, don't listen to me! I still can't understand why people want so many cell phones.
But just think of how well it would work.
A logo with a website underneath printed right where you look when talking to someone.
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I think Trump's poll numbers are about to get another boost.
Pelosi creates new House committee with subpoena power for coronavirus oversight (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/pelosi-creates-new-house-committee-for-coronavirus-oversight-with-subpoena-power)
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I think Trump's poll numbers are about to get another boost.
Pelosi creates new House committee with subpoena power for coronavirus oversight (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/pelosi-creates-new-house-committee-for-coronavirus-oversight-with-subpoena-power)
Yeh why not. 100,000 dead and its a victory. If he can convince the sheep of this, well there's no stopping him.
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I think Trump's poll numbers are about to get another boost.
Pelosi creates new House committee with subpoena power for coronavirus oversight (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/pelosi-creates-new-house-committee-for-coronavirus-oversight-with-subpoena-power)
Let me tell you what's going to happen here, speaking as a cynic (a liberal cynic, but still.) Somewhere, in the vast archives of a $2 trillion bail-out, some company will get money it doesn't deserve -- like a Mafia owned company or something. The committee will discover this, and it will be hung around Trump's neck like a dead skunk, whether or not he even knew about it. This is politics, in the Plague Year.
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Let me tell you what's going to happen here, speaking as a cynic (a liberal cynic, but still.) Somewhere, in the vast archives of a $2 trillion bail-out, some company will get money it doesn't deserve -- like a Mafia owned company or something. The committee will discover this, and it will be hung around Trump's neck like a dead skunk, whether or not he even knew about it. This is politics, in the Plague Year.
I dont doubt that is what they will be looking for.
However, what I see happening is that this political committee will make it harder and more complicated to get relief out the door. This will be brought to light by Trump and hung around the Dems' necks like a dead skunk. Then, just like when you have two speakers too close to each other, it will cancel each other out.
After Pelosi held up the relief bill for over a week for her liberal wish list, which still got the musicians at the Kennedy Center fired, I just dont see how this is a good idea.
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Slobodan, I live in a country where the demographics are pretty much the opposite of the States and I'm sure I don't need to explain the recent racial history of South Africa to anyone.. and yet, the last thought that would have come to my mind would be to go out and buy a gun. Not one person I know has even mentioned the idea....
I am sure the last thought of the white farmers murdered by the black mob was a bit different.
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Trump castigates Obama for playing golf. (https://www.sbnation.com/golf/2017/3/27/15073086/donald-trump-tweets-barack-obama-golf)
I never castigated Obama for playing golf or for going to Hawaii except when others complain about Trump. All presidents deserve time off and a way to relax. They come from different parts of the country and deserve to go home. That costs money and we the public have agreed to pay for it for all of them. Secret Service costs are huge what with Air Force 1's, security etc. We've been through assassinations with Kennedy and attempted assassination with Reagan and before with Lincoln,and a couple of others. President conduct our country's business while playing golf as well. Trump's played with Japan's Abe and lots of others. He's gotten together with other politicians from both parties. Often, good things can get done while playing which is why so many business executive do it as well. It's a great place to get deals done. It serves the country's interest. It may keep presidents healthy as well.
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I was a serious golfer for quite a while and I think your question could actually be extended to "Why would you play anything with a ball of any shape?" If you can find a reason for one of them, you have a reason for all. I played several ball sports (base-, basket- and foot-) and none were as compelling as golf. With golf, you rely on nobody but yourself; there are no excuses (the other guy played bad.) And odd as it seems, a golf ball always does what you fear, and it's interesting to find out how deeply and easily you fear.
Kind of like photography.
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I'm pretty fascinated by the gun thing. I can tell you without even knowing her that her training sucks and won't much help if she needs to use the gun. If you look at police shootings, even in good departments, most of them are fuck-ups. Even though they go through extensive training and are usually required to re-qualify with their weapons every year, cops still screw the pooch if they get in an actual shootout or dangerous situation. They fire wildly, they kill and wound innocent people, they kill fellow officers, and occasionally they kill an actual miscreant, who, more often than not, committed shoplifting. (Okay, I exaggerate a bit.) The fact remains that very little gun training actually prepares people to use a gun in a dangerous situation. (I should insert here that I'm licensed for concealed carry, because I wanted to go through the process for my job, although I only actually carried for one day and never did see anyone I felt free to shoot.) But: here in the states, there's this SHTF fantasy -- the Shit Hits the Fan, when society breaks down and everybody needs a black rifle and 10,000 rounds, minimum. There are entire racks of magazines devoted to the subject, and to what you should have in your bug-out bag, and whether your combat knife should be titanium or steel, and exactly which of 400 options you should whet your knife with.
Getting to the current rush of buyers, I suspect -- no way to prove it -- that 90% of the buyers already have a gun, and, most likely, several guns. It's a way of thinking. It may be nuts, but there it is.
I don't own a gun. But my wife told me if I bring one home she'd shoot me with it. :o
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Let me tell you what's going to happen here, speaking as a cynic (a liberal cynic, but still.) Somewhere, in the vast archives of a $2 trillion bail-out, some company will get money it doesn't deserve -- like a Mafia owned company or something. The committee will discover this, and it will be hung around Trump's neck like a dead skunk, whether or not he even knew about it. This is politics, in the Plague Year.
Congress is going to get a black eye too for not doing their homework and reading the damn thing. They passed a bill that's going to create worse economic conditions plus a lot of fraud. But wait, they're working on phase two. More trillions to save us. Pelosi and TRump together want to spend two trillion on infrastructure for the economy. Why bother? By the time they get through there won;t be an economy.
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I am sure the last thought of the white farmers murdered by the black mob was a bit different.
It is true that we live in a violent country, but the very vast majority of that violence is so-called "black on black" violence.. I fear you got your information from Tucker Carlson who was conned into doing a piece on this topic but our version of your right-wing nut-jobs....which your President then tweeted about.
Farmers certainly have been targeted because they are isolated, not because they are white, black farm-workers are also killed....
I repeat, despite this, I don't feel the need to own a firearm.
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Congress is going to get a black eye too for not doing their homework and reading the damn thing. They passed a bill that's going to create worse economic conditions plus a lot of fraud. But wait, they're working on phase two. More trillions to save us. Pelosi and TRump together want to spend two trillion on infrastructure for the economy. Why bother? By the time they get through there won;t be an economy.
I think it is more likely she will shoot herself in the foot, again.
The idea that she is some kind of great politician has been completely destroyed in the last two years. Judging by the track record, this will more then likely just help Trump with his approval numbers. The Mueller Report and Impeachment both did; why would you expect this to be any different.
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I am sure the last thought of the white farmers murdered by the black mob was a bit different.
About the same as the black man hung by the white mob wearing hoods over their heads.
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I have read only a part of this thread but I am surprised by the lack of deeper questioning of the deeply rooted mindsets of the Trump industry and, more broadly speaking, the right winged Republicans/religious groups.
But what has happened in the last month with the corona is just an accelerated version of what’s going to happen on broader subjects such as climate change or the removal of democratic control in the US.
The core issue is a refusal of facts and truth in favor of a romanticized version based on wishful thinking, lack of empathy and selfishness.
Trump and his supporters ignored all the scientific data brought to them and was attempting to align facts with his wicked theoretical views of the world. The reality came back to bite him big time confirming that science was right, that the focus on economy kills, that those actually suffering are the poor elderly people... yes the core Trump electorate.
And guess what, the exact same thing is going to happen for climate change and the slow but clear undemocratization of the US.
As a final comment, watching Fox news litterally kills these days. Stop watching it for your own good. It’s time to head back towards reality and away from dreamland.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I have read only a part of this thread but I am surprised by the lack of deeper questioning of the deeply rooted mindsets of the Trump industry and, more broadly speaking, the right winged Republicans/religious groups.
But what has happened in the last month with the corona is just an accelerated version of what’s going to happen on broader subjects such as climate change or the removal of democratic control in the US.
The core issue is a refusal of facts and truth in favor of a romanticized version based on wishful thinking, lack of empathy and selfishness.
Trump and his supporters ignored all the scientific data brought to them and was attempting to align facts with his wicked theoretical views of the world. The reality came back to bite him big time confirming that science was right, that the focus on economy kills, that those actually suffering are the poor elderly people... yes the core Trump electorate.
And guess what, the exact same thing is going to happen for climate change and the slow but clear undemocratization of the US.
As a final comment, watching Fox news litterally kills these days. Stop watching it for your own good. It’s time to head back towards reality and away from dreamland.
Cheers,
Bernard
LOL Bernard, singing the same old song. It's all Trump's fault. Do you ever get any new material?
Fact is, everyone was caught by surprise by this, every single person with the exception of (in my country) Tom Cotton and the governor of CT. Tom Cotton, a republican, actually held a Senate meeting on the virus and its potential effect in the beginning of January and only republicans showed up, albeit not all of them. All the dems accused him of trying to divert attention away from impeachment.
But even outside the USA, there is not one country in the West that foresaw this prior to Italy making it blatantly obvious.
So there is plenty of blame to go around on both sides.
And if this scientific data was really all over the place back in February, please send me the articles. Vox (left wing new site), the NYTs, Washington Post and every other news media all down played this up until March. No one was calling for any serious actions anywhere; De Blasio was telling New Yorkers to continue living their lives as normal.
The real reason for this screw up is China.
All western models that were developed on this virus were based on the data coming out of China, which was purposely inaccurate. Dr. Deborah Birx even commented on this during a recent press briefing. It was this deceiving data, from both China and WHO (of which the Japanese PM just said WHO should be renamed the Chinese Health Organization) that lead many to have false models and not take it seriously enough. I believe Birx said the data made it look more like SARs, which did not have a high transmission rate and why it was not originally taken seriously.
I might add that both Birx and Fauci are not politicians and can not be fired by Trump, so they have no reason to fluff up the story for Trump.
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LOL Bernard, singing the same old song. It's all Trump's fault. Do you ever get any new material?
Fact is, everyone was caught by surprise by this, every single person with the exception of (in my country) Tom Cotton and the governor of CT. Tom Cotton, a republican, actually held a Senate meeting on the virus and its potential effect in the beginning of January and only republicans showed up, albeit not all of them. All the dems accused him of trying to divert attention away from impeachment.
But even outside the USA, there is not one country in the West that foresaw this prior to Italy making it blatantly obvious.
So there is plenty of blame to go around on both sides.
And if this scientific data was really all over the place back in February, please send me the articles. Vox (left wing new site), the NYTs, Washington Post and every other news media all down played this up until March. No one was calling for any serious actions anywhere; De Blasio was telling New Yorkers to continue living their lives as normal.
The real reason for this screw up is China.
All western models that were developed on this virus were based on the data coming out of China, which was purposely inaccurate. Dr. Deborah Birx even commented on this during a recent press briefing. It was this deceiving data, from both China and WHO (which the Japanese PM just said WHO should be renamed the Chinese Health Organization) that lead many to have false models and not take it seriously enough. I believe Birx said the data made it look more like SARs, which did not have a high transmission rate and why it was not originally taken seriously.
That's the Trump way, blame everyone else except that person staring back at you in the mirror.
"We only have a few cases"
"We got it under control"
"It will go away like the regular flu"
"We'll be done by Easter"
Not exact words...but you get the drift. And the beat goes on.
"It will be a great victory if only 100,000 people die"
How the hell can anyone defend this bozo?
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That's the Trump way, blame everyone else except that person staring back at you in the mirror.
"We only have a few cases"
"We got it under control"
"It will go away like the regular flu"
"We'll be done by Easter"
Not exact words...but you get the drift. And the beat goes on.
"It will be a great victory if only 100,000 people die"
How the hell can anyone defend this bozo?
Just keep on pushing that narrative man and ignore the fact that no one actually prepared for this. Not a single government in the West took this seriously until Italy happened. Some got lucky; some countries are so far north it gets dark at 2:30 PM in the winter and no one wants to travel there because of it. But that does not mean they took any more seriously.
You can say that Trump handled this poorly, but the fact is, considering how the Dems were talking about this back in January and February, they would have screwed the pooch just as bad. Since the House is a co-equal branch, you can argue they are just as much at fault.
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Just keep on pushing that narrative man and ignore the fact that no one actually prepared for this. Not a single government in the West took this seriously until Italy happened. Some got lucky; some countries are so far north it gets dark at 2:30 PM in the winter and no one wants to travel there because of it. But that does not mean they took any more seriously.
You can say that Trump handled this poorly, but the fact is, considering how the Dems were talking about this back in January and February, they would have screwed the pooch just as bad. Since the House is a co-equal branch, you can argue they are just as much at fault.
There were news conferences where medical experts came on right after Trump and corrected his fabrications. I saw those conferences live...nothing to do with your instance about fake news.
It's such BS that Trump did not know anything about this virus back in February. He had all his medical experts providing every piece of information he needed to make the right decision...but instead he came onto nation TV and played down the virus as if it was the common cold. South Korea was under major attack in February and took action...was Trump busy watching the three stooges on TV rather than taking notice of what was happening.
There is zero excuse for this major blunder that will cause many thousands of deaths that could have been prevented if there was someone with intelligence at the head of the helm.
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There were news conferences where medical experts came on right after Trump and corrected his fabrications. I saw those conferences live...nothing to do with your instance about fake news.
It's such BS that Trump did not know anything about this virus back in February. He had all his medical experts providing every piece of information he needed to make the right decision...but instead he came onto nation TV and played down the virus as if it was the common cold. South Korea was under major attack in February and took action...was Trump busy watching the three stooges on TV rather than taking notice of what was happening.
There is zero excuse for this major blunder that will cause many thousands of deaths that could have been prevented if there was someone with intelligence at the head of the helm.
Everyone down played the virus too.
If you disagree, please post one article from any news organization pre-March where anyone in power was suggesting we take it as serious as we are right now. Please provide me one article on some politician back in February was calling for a national shut down of the economy and other measures we have put in place since Italy.
Just one. Give me one politician who took this seriously in February and was calling for major action like we have taken.
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The more and more I listen to these pressers, the more and more it becomes clear that everyone in government is expecting this dying down in the summer and the coming back next winter.
The FEMA guy is talking about getting more ventilators manufactured hopefully by June. Going by all of the curves being used by every politician, which all end in October, having additional equipment delivered in June would do us nothing unless they are expecting a 2nd wave next winter.
I wish some one, anyone, would actually tell us this and, likewise, I wish reporters would ask the questions needed to get this information instead of the gotcha questions that have become so common from CNN and NBC.
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Joe,
I fail to understand why an intelligent person like yourself is trying that hard to not face the obvious reality not to attempt to grasp the bigger picture.
I am genuinely trying to help you step out of the little box you keep yourself prisoner of.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Joe,
I fail to understand why an intelligent person like yourself is trying that hard to not face the obvious reality not to attempt to grasp the bigger picture.
I am genuinely trying to help you step out of the little box you keep yourself prisoner of.
Cheers,
Bernard
Bernard, really? ???
You only pay attention to Trump's failures, in hindsight only, while acting as if everyone else did the right thing. This is just not the case, in the West at least. Every single western country did nothing to prepare for this. No one was able to foresee this before Italy.
Like I said, give me one article that quotes one USA politician, on either side, that talks with the brevity that we are talking about this now but pre-Italy. Just give me one, and I'll admit you are right and I am wrong.
Just one USA politician back in February that was calling for actions up to the intensity of what we are doing now.
If you're so correct, this is an easy win for you.
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Joe,
I fail to understand why an intelligent person like yourself is trying that hard to not face the obvious reality not to attempt to grasp the bigger picture.
I am genuinely trying to help you step out of the little box you keep yourself prisoner of.
Cheers,
Bernard
Sorry Bernard but it appears the prisoner in the little box is you....again.
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Story Bernard but it appears the prisoner in the little box is you....again.
what story are you talking about? Can you clarify?
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what story are you talking about? Can you clarify?
I think he meant sorry.
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The more and more I listen to these pressers, the more and more it becomes clear that everyone in government is expecting this dying down in the summer and the coming back next winter.
The FEMA guy is talking about getting more ventilators manufactured hopefully by June. Going by all of the curves being used by every politician, which all end in October, having additional equipment delivered in June would do us nothing unless they are expecting a 2nd wave next winter.
I wish some one, anyone, would actually tell us this and, likewise, I wish reporters would ask the questions needed to get this information instead of the gotcha questions that have become so common from CNN and NBC.
Everyone down played the virus too.
Most governments, especially in the west European countries downplayed the dangers and mishandled the crisis.
Today, France with 67 million people incurred over 1355 deaths, compared with 708 deaths in USA. Per capita, France was about 8 times worse than USA.
Global death count for the day was 5,665. The global case total was over 1 million and total deaths count 53,000.
The limiting factor is not so much the number of ventilators, as available space and personnel in the hospitals. A better strategy than hoping to get millions of ventilators is to prevent millions of infections.
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There were news conferences where medical experts came on right after Trump and corrected his fabrications. I saw those conferences live...nothing to do with your instance about fake news.
It's such BS that Trump did not know anything about this virus back in February. He had all his medical experts providing every piece of information he needed to make the right decision...but instead he came onto nation TV and played down the virus as if it was the common cold. South Korea was under major attack in February and took action...was Trump busy watching the three stooges on TV rather than taking notice of what was happening.
There is zero excuse for this major blunder that will cause many thousands of deaths that could have been prevented if there was someone with intelligence at the head of the helm.
Was it really a blunder? The information from the experts was presented and nothing withheld.
Trump attempted to paint a picture that did not panic the public. I don’t think that’s a blunder at all. But let’s go back to February shall we. What else of importance was taking place in late January to early February the sucked the oxygen from the room? Oh yea, that Democratic impeachment...the one they know would never be a winner but they put the country through it anyway. Do you think that had any effect on the early uptake by Congress and President on this?
But more important why don’t we look at the timeline of what was happening behind the scenes instead? You think that might be instructive when it comes to the story of the US involvement? Or is this just more Trump bashing?
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Most governments, especially in the west European countries downplayed the dangers and mishandled the crisis.
Today, France with 67 million people incurred over 1355 deaths, compared with 708 deaths in USA. Per capita, France was about 8 times worse than USA.
Global death count for the day was 5,665. The global case total was over 1 million and total deaths count 53,000.
The limiting factor is not so much the number of ventilators, as available space and personnel in the hospitals. A better strategy than hoping to get millions of ventilators is to prevent millions of infections.
That's not possible, without a vaccine.
It's just not. You cant expect the world to shut down for a year. In a month we need to get back to work, or the economic damage will cause more damage and death then this virus.
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what story are you talking about? Can you clarify?
Sorry...for the typo of sorry.
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Here's Trump's message to the nation...no wonder everything is so F'd up now. This is not leadership...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eB_xCk5ABw
The youtube video is a collection of Trumps responses and addresses regarding the Covid-19 virus.
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Most governments, especially in the west European countries downplayed the dangers and mishandled the crisis.
Today, France with 67 million people incurred over 1355 deaths, compared with 708 deaths in USA. Per capita, France was about 8 times worse than USA.
Global death count for the day was 5,665. The global case total was over 1 million and total deaths count 53,000.
The limiting factor is not so much the number of ventilators, as available space and personnel in the hospitals. A better strategy than hoping to get millions of ventilators is to prevent millions of infections.
The ventilators are not offering a lot of hope even if they are available. Stats I read the other day said that 86% of people placed on vents died. I think the percentage in the US was like 70%. Don’t quote me on the exact numbers, it’s from memory but I think they are very close. The best thing you can do is simply not put your sett in a position where you can get infected.
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Here's Trump's message to the nation...no wonder everything is so F'd up now. This is not leadership...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eB_xCk5ABw
The youtube video is a collection of Trumps responses and addresses regarding the Covid-19 virus.
Yea he evolved...imagine that. It may not be “ leadership” to you, but others think otherwise. Best of luck electing someone else.
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Was it really a blunder? The information from the experts was presented and nothing withheld.
Trump attempted to paint a picture that did not panic the public. I don’t think that’s a blunder at all. But let’s go back to February shall we. What else of importance was taking place in late January to early February the sucked the oxygen from the room? Oh yea, that Democratic impeachment...the one they know would never be a winner but they put the country through it anyway. Do you think that had any effect on the early uptake by Congress and President on this?
But more important why don’t we look at the timeline of what was happening behind the scenes instead? You think that might be instructive when it comes to the story of the US involvement? Or is this just more Trump bashing?
You can call it feeding your people BS to keep them calm. I call it total incompetence at the top. Here in Canada we've been given the same story from day 1 from all levels of government...no baby spoon feeding...just the truth. What would you rather have from your leaders...but of feel good information or the truth? Maybe now I'm starting to understand why the US is so anti-government...they've been lied to too many time.
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That's not possible, without a vaccine.
It's just not. You cant expect the world to shut down for a year. In a month we need to get back to work, or the economic damage will cause more damage and death then this virus.
It's a month now. A couple weeks ago you were saying we need to get back to work in two weeks or we'll start seeing guns come out as people are starving.
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Yea he evolved...imagine that. It may not be “ leadership” to you, but others think otherwise. Best of luck electing someone else.
It's that what you call it?
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You can call it feeding your people BS to keep them calm. I call it total incompetence at the top. Here in Canada we've been given the same story from day 1 from all levels of government...no baby spoon feeding...just the truth. What would you rather have from your leaders...but of feel good information or the truth? Maybe now I'm starting to understand why the US is so anti-government...they've been lied to too many time.
I’m quite happy with our leadership. Our people got both feel good and hard fact. Can you imagine if Trump had told the country at 15 cases that he was shutting it all down then? Yea, that’s a real option. People had the option of making up their own minds how to prepare or not. And regardless of the so called leadership you say you demand, that is what the outcome would have been in any case....people making decisions.
You don’t like it, good for you. You are welcome to your opinion.
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It's that what you call it?
That’s exactly what happened. The situation changed daily, as did Trump’ s response. That’s what intellectually honest people do...their positions change as new and better data becomes available.
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That’s exactly what happened. The situation changed daily, as did Trump’ s response. That’s what intellectually honest people do...their positions change as new and better data becomes available.
Oh...and what data made Trump change from calling it a "Democratic hoax" to "It will be a victory if all we loose is 100,000 people".
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That's not possible, without a vaccine.
It's just not. You cant expect the world to shut down for a year. In a month we need to get back to work, or the economic damage will cause more damage and death then this virus.
There are quite a few countries that recognized early the virus dangers and they didn't allow it to mushroom like in USA and Western Europe. For example, Singapore, Taiwan, Slovakia.
As to thinking out of the box, Germany is now floating a "hybrid" stay-at-home concept where they would force the older segment of population to stay at home and the younger groups with a lower risk of infection could go back to work and other activities.
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That’s exactly what happened. The situation changed daily, as did Trump’ s response. That’s what intellectually honest people do...their positions change as new and better data becomes available.
The facts and consequences were clear from the very beginning to all intelligent observers.
I think, a more accurate description would be "Trump's understanding of the situation changed daily."
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The facts and consequences were clear from the very beginning to all intelligent observers.
I think, a more accurate description would be "Trump's understanding of the situation changed daily."
No, actually they were not “clear” from the beginning. It fact they were cloudy as heck. The timeline of events shows just that, worldwide.
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There are quite a few countries that recognized early the virus dangers and they didn't allow it to mushroom like in USA and Western Europe. For example, Singapore, Taiwan, Slovakia.
As to thinking out of the box, Germany is now floating a "hybrid" stay-at-home concept where they would force the older segment of population to stay at home and the younger groups with a lower risk of infection could go back to work and other activities.
Different countries have the ability to force its citizens to do things other countries can’t, like the US. It’s not so much timing as it is the ability to dictate behavior.
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Oh...and what data made Trump change from calling it a "Democratic hoax" to "It will be a victory if all we loose is 100,000 people".
Are you really that uninformed that you think that Trump called the virus a “Democratic Hoax”. Please, this is beyond silly on your part.
And what changed? Actual on the ground events, not models.
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There were news conferences where medical experts came on right after Trump and corrected his fabrications. I saw those conferences live...nothing to do with your instance about fake news.
It's such BS that Trump did not know anything about this virus back in February. He had all his medical experts providing every piece of information he needed to make the right decision...but instead he came onto nation TV and played down the virus as if it was the common cold. South Korea was under major attack in February and took action...was Trump busy watching the three stooges on TV rather than taking notice of what was happening.
There is zero excuse for this major blunder that will cause many thousands of deaths that could have been prevented if there was someone with intelligence at the head of the helm.
While the Democrats were busy with political impeachment, Trump instituted a shutdown and ban of travel from China BEFORE February. The idea that he put American economy before their health was not true. Major disruption started even then. True, he didn't shut down the whole country at that point. But no one knew it was that bad at that time. Yet he implemented powerful restrictions. People here are just selectively remembering.
This is from a NY Times article published Jan 31st:
Trump Administration Restricts Entry Into U.S. From China
The travel disruption sent shocks through the stock market and rattled industries that depend on the flow of goods and people between the world’s two largest economies.
Moving to counter the spreading coronavirus outbreak, the Trump administration said Friday (Jan 31st) that it would bar entry by most foreign nationals who had recently visited China and put some American travelers under a quarantine as it declared a rare public health emergency.
The temporary restrictions followed announcements by American Airlines, Delta Air Lines and United Airlines that they would suspend air service between the United States and China for several months.
The travel disruption sent shocks through the stock market and rattled industries that depend on the flow of goods and people between the world’s two largest economies. Planning was upended for companies across a vast global supply chain, from Apple to John Deere, the tractor company.
The S&P 500 suffered its worst loss since October, falling 1.8 percent, as the spread of the virus — and the increasingly urgent efforts by companies and governments to contain it — fanned fears of an economic slowdown.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/31/business/china-travel-coronavirus.html
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Are you really that uninformed that you think that Trump called the virus a “Democratic Hoax”. Please, this is beyond silly on your part.
And what changed? Actual on the ground events, not models.
Don't know what you watch, but I saw him right there in one of his campaigns surrounded by his sheep saying exactly that. How can you even defend this guy when he's right there on video with his lips flapping and getting cheers from his sheep.
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It's a month now. A couple weeks ago you were saying we need to get back to work in two weeks or we'll start seeing guns come out as people are starving.
We will.
Some one near me killed himself right after shooting his girlfriend over loosing his job. Thankfully she survived.
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No, actually they were not “clear” from the beginning. It fact they were cloudy as heck. The timeline of events shows just that, worldwide.
Clear to most scientists, cloudy to most politicians.
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While the Democrats were busy with political impeachment, Trump instituted a shutdown and ban of travel from China BEFORE February. The idea that he put American economy before their health was not true. Major disruption started even then. True, he didn't shut down the whole country at that point. But no one knew it was that bad at that time. Yet he implemented powerful restrictions. People here are just selectively remembering.
This is from a NY Times article published Jan 31st:
Trump Administration Restricts Entry Into U.S. From China
The travel disruption sent shocks through the stock market and rattled industries that depend on the flow of goods and people between the world’s two largest economies.
Moving to counter the spreading coronavirus outbreak, the Trump administration said Friday (Jan 31st) that it would bar entry by most foreign nationals who had recently visited China and put some American travelers under a quarantine as it declared a rare public health emergency.
The temporary restrictions followed announcements by American Airlines, Delta Air Lines and United Airlines that they would suspend air service between the United States and China for several months.
The travel disruption sent shocks through the stock market and rattled industries that depend on the flow of goods and people between the world’s two largest economies. Planning was upended for companies across a vast global supply chain, from Apple to John Deere, the tractor company.
The S&P 500 suffered its worst loss since October, falling 1.8 percent, as the spread of the virus — and the increasingly urgent efforts by companies and governments to contain it — fanned fears of an economic slowdown.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/31/business/china-travel-coronavirus.html
Alan...I love seeing that market dive. I got out of the market ( well 75% out ) back in February as I was planning a bunch of travel and didn't want to be exposed when away. I was more concerned about the usual shinannagans during the run up to the fall election.
Now I have money sitting just waiting to re-enter...drop Dow Jones...drop.
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We will.
Some one near me killed himself right after shooting his girlfriend over loosing his job. Thankfully she survived.
Suicides have been on the rise in the US...bucking the trend in other developed countries. There is much more behind this increase than just this virus. Something rotting deep within the system.
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There are quite a few countries that recognized early the virus dangers and they didn't allow it to mushroom like in USA and Western Europe. For example, Singapore, Taiwan, Slovakia.
As to thinking out of the box, Germany is now floating a "hybrid" stay-at-home concept where they would force the older segment of population to stay at home and the younger groups with a lower risk of infection could go back to work and other activities.
The Asian countries, outside of China, certainly handled it better. However, this was because H1N1 caused them to have already developed a testing infrastructure. They were lucky due to this.
I am all for the German method you describe, and think that is the best method. I even mentioned something like this before, a couple of weeks ago. Of course, we will need funding to provide the support to those older individuals so they can have proper protection from this. I would prefer this to happen on a local level supported by the federal government, which I think will be better at organizing it.
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Suicides have been on the rise in the US...bucking the trend in other developed countries. There is much more behind this increase than just this virus. Something rotting deep within the system.
Sorry, but you're wrong.
First, suicides have been decreasing overall in the last couple of years. This has been reported on in several news media here. Yes, the main stories you will se if you research this are about the increase over the past two decades. But on a year over year basis, it have been improving.
Second, with this specific example, he was noticeably upset over loosing his job and expressed this as the reason for shooting his girlfriend to his girlfriend before shooting her.
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While the Democrats were busy with political impeachment, Trump instituted a shutdown and ban of travel from China BEFORE February. The idea that he put American economy before their health was not true. Major disruption started even then. True, he didn't shut down the whole country at that point. But no one knew it was that bad at that time. Yet he implemented powerful restrictions. People here are just selectively remembering.
That was indeed a good move by Trump. He should have banned also flights from Italy, Spain and France.
Interestingly, also Italy announced on January 31 a ban on flights from China, but that alone didn't help them. Without keeping a safe distance from each other, the other factors played a bigger role in spreading the virus than just the flight ban.
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Sorry, but you're wrong.
First, suicides have been decreasing overall in the last couple of year. This has been reported on in several news media here. Second, with this specific example, he was noticeably upset over loosing his job and expressed this as the reason for shooting his girlfriend to his girlfriend before shooting her.
In the last couple of years the situation was totally different than in this year. And we haven't seen anything yet.
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Bernard, really? ???
You only pay attention to Trump's failures, in hindsight only, while acting as if everyone else did the right thing. This is just not the case, in the West at least. Every single western country did nothing to prepare for this. No one was able to foresee this before Italy.
Like I said, give me one article that quotes one USA politician, on either side, that talks with the brevity that we are talking about this now but pre-Italy. Just give me one, and I'll admit you are right and I am wrong.
Just one USA politician back in February that was calling for actions up to the intensity of what we are doing now.
If you're so correct, this is an easy win for you.
Joe,
I won't enter in an endless debate with you on this, you are smart enough to understant but I'll just point out a few aspects
- blaming China for the inaccuracy of their reporting: hilarious... Trump and his supporters have been calling China untrustworthy on pretty much every matter for years... but you claime to have believed their data on the corona spread... more than a month ago an article from credible scientist in the US proposed a very credible estimate of more than 15 times the official numbers of contamination and casualities,
- many Western countries were caught off-guard: true, but Trump continued to deny the obvious for weeks after plenty of obvious evidence from Europe was visible. the point isn't the prepardness - although there is a lot to say on this - but they way he kept denying the scientific facts. Every day matters here and your attempts to paint everything in a fuzzy light is not intellectually honest
- you seem to think that the criticism I and other made of Trump's action is political: that's the little box I am talking about. You were not able to look at the impeachment process in any other way than it being a political plot, and you keep making the same mistake again and again. Open your eyes, look, consider facts and you will see with obvious clarity a pattern emerge where the truth is ignored, where scientists and doctors's perfectly valid inputs and ignored when they don't match the political agenda of Trmup, where lies are made again and again to support a view of the world that imposes an extreme right wing agenda on the course of society, where the press is prevented from challenging authorities and simply from asking questions that highlight shortcomings (there were amazing videos yesterday showing how perfectly legitmate questions from CNN were simply not let be asked), where...
You don't need to answer me, it's really between you and your conscience. But make no mistake, the non/delayed actions of Trump will have resulted int he death of thousand of people. And you, keeping supporting him, share some responsibility in those deaths.
Done here.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Clear to most scientists, cloudy to most politicians.
It's not cloudy to politicians. They are looking at additional things beside science, such as economic. Scientists, who are often very wrong with their conclusions, are parochial in their thinking. They don't consider other factors that are important to society as well. Also, they don't answer to the body politic; they are not elected. They are not our leaders.
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Sorry, but you're wrong.
First, suicides have been decreasing overall in the last couple of years. This has been reported on in several news media here. Yes, the main stories you will se if you research this are about the increase over the past two decades. But on a year over year basis, it have been improving.
Second, with this specific example, he was noticeably upset over loosing his job and expressed this as the reason for shooting his girlfriend to his girlfriend before shooting her.
Please show me your data. Here is what I got:
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While the Democrats were busy with political impeachment, Trump instituted a shutdown and ban of travel from China BEFORE February.
Except that it didn't apply to US citizens or permanent residents, who could bring in as much coronavirus from China as they could fit in their checked baggage and carry-ons.
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Alan...I love seeing that market dive. I got out of the market ( well 75% out ) back in February as I was planning a bunch of travel and didn't want to be exposed when away. I was more concerned about the usual shinannagans during the run up to the fall election.
Now I have money sitting just waiting to re-enter...drop Dow Jones...drop.
My wife an I were planning a trip but decided to put a halt to it as well. We saw how this was going and didn't want to get stuck in some airport where we didn't speak the language. Regarding the sinking market and all the money printing, I got one word: GOLD I don;t think we're going to see the stock market recover for years.
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It's not cloudy to politicians. They are looking at additional things beside science, such as economic. Scientists, who are often very wrong with their conclusions, are parochial in their thinking. They don't consider other factors that are important to society as well. Also, they don't answer to the body politic; they are not elected. They are not our leaders.
Alan, you seem to hold a higher regard for politicians than most people. Politicians follow the herd instincts, they don't want to rock the boat, they react only as the last resort, and frankly, most of them don't have the mental capacity to plan ahead.
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It's not cloudy to politicians. They are looking at additional things beside science, such as economic. Scientists, who are often very wrong with their conclusions, are parochial in their thinking. They don't consider other factors that are important to society as well. Also, they don't answer to the body politic; they are not elected. They are not our leaders.
So how is Trump doing with regards to dealing with the virus?
Hint "it'll be a victory if we lose just 100,000 people"
And how is he doing regarding the economy?
Dow dropping like a stone.
Unemployment hitting records.
What grade would you give him?
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Except that it didn't apply to US citizens or permanent residents, who could bring in as much coronavirus from China as they could fit in their checked baggage and carry-ons.
Bingo...and then don't test and let them spread everywhere and here we are today.
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Except that it didn't apply to US citizens or permanent residents, who could bring in as much coronavirus from China as they could fit in their checked baggage and carry-ons.
Stop moving the goalposts. You said he didn't do anything. Well, he did a lot. The NY Times article disproves your earlier accusation. In any case, how much was he suppose to do at that early time? Not let Americans back into their own country? Put them in quarantine for weeks? We didn't know that back then and you're being intellectually dishonest suggesting it. Why don't you suggest he should have shut down schools and everything else we shut down later including quaretining everyone to our homes?
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Stop moving the goalposts. You said he didn't do anything. Well, he did a lot. The NY Times article disproves your earlier accusation. In any case, how much was he suppose to do at that early time? Not let Americans back into their own country? Put them in quarantine for weeks? We didn't know that back then and you're being intellectually dishonest suggesting it. Why don't you suggest he should have shut down schools and everything else we shut down later including quaretining everyone to our homes?
Putting them in quarantine for 2-3 weeks would have been prudent. Canada did that, at least for all travellers returning from Wuhan and other affected places.
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Stop moving the goalposts. You said he didn't do anything. Well, he did a lot. The NY Times article disproves your earlier accusation. In any case, how much was he suppose to do at that early time? Not let Americans back into their own country? Put them in quarantine for weeks? We didn't know that back then and you're being intellectually dishonest suggesting it. Why don't you suggest he should have shut down schools and everything else we shut down later including quaretining everyone to our homes?
You are confusing me with someone else.
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Why don't you suggest he should have shut down schools and everything else we shut down later including quaretining everyone to our homes?
No one is quarantined. People can go out for shopping or excersise.
In Canada, if you returned from foreign soil, you were quaranteened...no shopping, no friends, no going out your door. And guess what, no gun fights as a result...
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Alan, you seem to hold a higher regard for politicians than most people. Politicians follow the herd instincts, they don't want to rock the boat, they react only as the last resort, and frankly, most of them don't have the mental capacity to plan ahead.
I think politicians are morons and government is too big. But I don't want to turn over the country to scientists who aren't elected and report to no one. When they screw up, they just go back into their ivory towers protected by their tenure. Politicians do risk getting fired which sharpens their reactions.
As far as not rocking the boat, Trump actually is more likely to do that than most politicians because he isn't a career politician. His being a maverick is what got him elected. His success in business helped as well. He knows how to execute, something many politicians have no idea of. They've never ran anything. He has.
The reason his poll numbers are going up because people see how he operates every day at his news conferences. All the lies about how he does everything himself is shown to be BS. Beside the medical community, he brings in military, FEMA , and other key administrators to show how he leads them but allows them to get the job done. All the BS you;ve been reading for four years how he's this John Wayne character doing it by himself is nonsense. One man can;t run the American government. However, people now see he knows how to organize, direct, manage, and is intelligent in understand all the details of what going on. The press lied about that and now people are seeing first hand that he's a powerful and knowledgeable leader. That's why they all want him to stop the conferences. It makes Biden, who is hiding in his basement, look small by comparison.
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So how is Trump doing with regards to dealing with the virus?
Hint "it'll be a victory if we lose just 100,000 people"
And how is he doing regarding the economy?
Dow dropping like a stone.
Unemployment hitting records.
What grade would you give him?
Voters will not blame him for the virus. They will give him credit if we've passed the worse and the economy is being restored by the time of the election.
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Bingo...and then don't test and let them spread everywhere and here we are today.
You seem to be able to portend the future. Could you let me know the winner of the fourth race tomorrow?
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I think politicians are morons and government is too big. But I don't want to turn over the country to scientists who aren't elected and report to no one. When they screw up, they just go back into their ivory towers protected by their tenure. Politicians do risk getting fired which sharpens their reactions.
Great. Morons with sharp reactions.
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That was indeed a good move by Trump. He should have banned also flights from Italy, Spain and France.
Interestingly, also Italy announced on January 31 a ban on flights from China, but that alone didn't help them. Without keeping a safe distance from each other, the other factors played a bigger role in spreading the virus than just the flight ban.
Trump did ban Europe subsequently. But this whole virus thing is a moving target. Canada kept changing their restrictions as well. Everyone is trying to balance medical safety with keeping their countries running. Frankly, it was like shoveling sh!t against the tide. But we know that all in retrospect. I think most people are fair about understanding it and won;t blame politicians except the ones who hate them to begin with.
AS late as MArch 20th, Canada was still modifying who could and could not travel to your country. The list of exceptions goes on page after page.
Canada provides update on exemptions to travel restrictions to protect Canadians and support the economy
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/news/2020/03/canada-provides-update-on-exemptions-to-travel-restrictions-to-protect-canadians-and-support-the-economy.html
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Voters will not blame him for the virus. They will give him credit if we've passed the worse and the economy is being restored by the time of the election.
Who would they blame for the virus...and why not Trump. Where does that buck stop. Is there anything more important that needs Trumps attention and if he's not taking reponsibility...give the wheel to someone who will call the shots and take responsibility for the decisions...you know...a leader.
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You seem to be able to portend the future. Could you let me know the winner of the fourth race tomorrow?
It's not predicting when you see what was working elsewhere like South Korea or China.
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Trump did ban Europe subsequently. But this whole virus thing is a moving target. Canada kept changing their restrictions as well. Everyone is trying to balance medical safety with keeping their countries running. Frankly, it was like shoveling sh!t against the tide. But we know that all in retrospect. I think most people are fair about understanding it and won;t blame politicians except the ones who hate them to begin with.
AS late as MArch 20th, Canada was still modifying who could and could not travel to your country. The list of exceptions goes on page after page.
Canada provides update on exemptions to travel restrictions to protect Canadians and support the economy
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/news/2020/03/canada-provides-update-on-exemptions-to-travel-restrictions-to-protect-canadians-and-support-the-economy.html
But it did two things totally different.
1. Every person coming from foreign soil was quaranteened for 14 days.
2. It started tested way sooner than the US. This was so sorely evident contrasting Washington State and British Columbia.
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Great. Morons with sharp reactions.
I shouldn't have called them morons. They aren't. Self-loving, power-seeking narcissists would have been better.
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It's not predicting when you see what was working elsewhere like South Korea or China.
Americans wouldn't stand for what they did especially in China. We're a free people. Plus, it seems the Chinese leadership has lied about how bad it was and is causing the disaster in the rest of the world. I can't believe you think it's better in China. Heck, the disease started there. Maybe you should send a note of thanks to Xi.
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But it did two things totally different.
1. Every person coming from foreign soil was quaranteened for 14 days.
2. It started tested way sooner than the US. This was so sorely evident contrasting Washington State and British Columbia.
Every country did things different. Cherry picking this detail or another proves nothing. If you pick the right approach and got lucky, everyone calls you a genius. Stock pickers are like that. So America has 5 times the number of ventilators as most European countries. Where was Europe before? Why weren't they so smart?
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On a per capita basis, the two states are rather close to each other, without taking all other differences, cultural, political, etc. into account.
South Korea has 89 new cases today. The USA has 24,100 new case today. Most of the world is now passed the peak and managing it. Visit the WHO Dashboard for real data.
https://experience.arcgis.com/experience/685d0ace521648f8a5beeeee1b9125cd
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Joe,
I won't enter in an endless debate with you on this, you are smart enough to understant but I'll just point out a few aspects
- blaming China for the inaccuracy of their reporting: hilarious... Trump and his supporters have been calling China untrustworthy on pretty much every matter for years... but you claime to have believed their data on the corona spread... more than a month ago an article from credible scientist in the US proposed a very credible estimate of more than 15 times the official numbers of contamination and casualities,
- many Western countries were caught off-guard: true, but Trump continued to deny the obvious for weeks after plenty of obvious evidence from Europe was visible. the point isn't the prepardness - although there is a lot to say on this - but they way he kept denying the scientific facts. Every day matters here and your attempts to paint everything in a fuzzy light is not intellectually honest
- you seem to think that the criticism I and other made of Trump's action is political: that's the little box I am talking about. You were not able to look at the impeachment process in any other way than it being a political plot, and you keep making the same mistake again and again. Open your eyes, look, consider facts and you will see with obvious clarity a pattern emerge where the truth is ignored, where scientists and doctors's perfectly valid inputs and ignored when they don't match the political agenda of Trmup, where lies are made again and again to support a view of the world that imposes an extreme right wing agenda on the course of society, where the press is prevented from challenging authorities and simply from asking questions that highlight shortcomings (there were amazing videos yesterday showing how perfectly legitmate questions from CNN were simply not let be asked), where...
You don't need to answer me, it's really between you and your conscience. But make no mistake, the non/delayed actions of Trump will have resulted int he death of thousand of people. And you, keeping supporting him, share some responsibility in those deaths.
Done here.
Cheers,
Bernard
LOL
I gave you an easy win and an easy way to end it right now. If you are so right, like you claim, all you need to do is give me one article pre-Italy quoting one USA politician actually taking this as serious as we are now.
Come on Bernard. If you're so right, it should be an easy enough article to find. If your preferred party, the Democrats, are so much better, then surely at least one of them had so much foresight and felt so strongly for the country that he or she gave at least one interview back in January or February warning us about this and advising us to take actions similar in gravity as we are now.
By the way, the conscience piece, gave me a little chuckle.
I have to respond to your criticisms of Trump with the press. Yes, Trump talks down to the press, but he largely leaves them alone to do their thing. Obama illegally spied on members of the media, jailed reporters, and held vendettas such that he denied certain press members access to briefings. This has all been documented, and Trump has not done anything near egregious as Obama did to the press.
Obama, whose administration prosecuted and spied on reporters, claims Trump is very bad for criticizing newsrooms (https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/obama-whose-administration-prosecuted-and-spied-on-reporters-claims-trump-is-very-bad-for-criticizing-newsrooms)
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Americans wouldn't stand for what they did especially in China. We're a free people. Plus, it seems the Chinese leadership has lied about how bad it was and is causing the disaster in the rest of the world. I can't believe you think it's better in China. Heck, the disease started there. Maybe you should send a note of thanks to Xi.
It would amaze you how much people would fall in line if they would get the straight goods and repeatably getting the straight goods. It's when they get lied to over and over that things go wrong.
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Every country did things different. Cherry picking this detail or another proves nothing. If you pick the right approach and got lucky, everyone calls you a genius. Stock pickers are like that. So America has 5 times the number of ventilators as most European countries. Where was Europe before? Why weren't they so smart?
Yeh it seems like Trump just spins the wheel and hopes on luck...and if things don't work out, give it another spin. Canadian politicians all lined up behind the medical experts and followed their direction. Maybe our experience with SARS helped out.
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Americans wouldn't stand for what they did especially in China. We're a free people. Plus, it seems the Chinese leadership has lied about how bad it was and is causing the disaster in the rest of the world. I can't believe you think it's better in China. Heck, the disease started there. Maybe you should send a note of thanks to Xi.
Free is good. Better than gullible and short-sighted.
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LOL
I gave you an easy win and an easy way to end it right now. If you are so right, like you claim, all you need to do is give me one article pre-Italy quoting one USA politician actually taking this as serious as we are now.
Come on Bernard. If you're so right, it should be an easy enough article to find. If your preferred party, the Democrats, are so much better, then surely at least one of them had so much foresight and felt so strongly for the country that he or she gave at least one interview back in January or February warning us about this and advising us to take actions similar in gravity as we are now.
Why would I waste time looking for a pre-Italy article when the bulk is my criticism is how Trump continued to not take any measures for weeks after Italy happened?
And once again, I don't care about American politics. I am not pro-democrat or anti-repulican. That's how YOU look at things, not me.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Why would I waste time looking for a pre-Italy article when the bulk is my criticism is how Trump continued to not take any measures for weeks after Italy happened?
And once again, I don't care about American politics. I am not pro-democrat or anti-repulican. That's how YOU look at things, not me.
Cheers,
Bernard
Do I hear crickets? ???
I think I do.
You said the way Trump handled this in preparing was the issue while acting as if it would be the case that if a different person was in charge, it would have been better. Well, first, the preparing part would have been pre-Italy, you know, before it broke out. That is how preparing works; it happens before the event. Second, if someone else is so much better at this, then at least one politician would have had the foresight to warn us, instead of wasting our time with impeachment. But no one actually did.
But anyway, crickets it is I guess.
PS, so who is your boogie man in Italy? The Italian death rate is up around 9%, much higher then ours. Your blood pressure must go through the roof when you think of their politicians.
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Yeh it seems like Trump just spins the wheel and hopes on luck...and if things don't work out, give it another spin. Canadian politicians all lined up behind the medical experts and followed their direction. Maybe our experience with SARS helped out.
SARS could have helped. Once burned, twice cautious.
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SARS could have helped. Once burned, twice cautious.
Now, Dr. Oz says that the current situation is just a dry-run for the next pandemic. The question is only when that will come.
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Now, Dr. Oz says that the current situation is just a dry-run for the next pandemic. The question is only when that will come.
Well, there are reports the wet markets have re-opened, so another 5 years.
The track record of the last few decades points to every 5 or 6 years a virus comes from these things. I think it would be best to end all travel to and from China and tariff all Chinese exports until they shut them down.
We cant afford to do this every 5 or 6 years.
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SARS could have helped. Once burned, twice cautious.
Yeh...and it might have been smart to see what lessons were learned by other countries that tackled SARS...rather than learning those lessons for the first time.
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Getting back to actual facts,
Dr. Deborah Birx admits US officials 'didn't know how contagious' coronavirus was early in outbreak (https://www.foxnews.com/media/dr-deborah-birx-coronavirus-pandemic-contagious)
Dr. Deborah Birx, the response coordinator for the White House coronavirus task force, told Fox News Thursday that initial data about the coronavirus outbreak from China left U.S. officials unable to properly prepare for when the virus made its way to the U.S.
"The bottom line is we didn't know how contagious it was," Brix told Martha MacCallum during a special Fox News digital town hall event. "And I think when you make misassumptions around contagion early on, then you don't prepare in the way that you should prepare for the level of contagion that this COVID-19 exhibits."
If only that SOB had special mind reading powers and was able to tap into Xi's inner thoughts we could have avoided this. Or we can just admit this is no one's fault, other then China's, and move on to how we can fix it.
In other news, shit is getting pretty serious in the Philippines! Perhaps we should follow their example.
"Shoot them dead": Philippine President Rodrigo Duterte orders police and military to kill citizens who defy coronavirus lockdown (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/rodrigo-duterte-philippines-president-coronavirus-lockdown-shoot-people-dead/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab6a&linkId=85694697&fbclid=IwAR3Uvo1E_ZtTO5Vc9nK5OhDH1HPHDnX_dqr9ZVWaiAF820kWh36VQtiIbbc)
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Getting back to actual facts,
Dr. Deborah Birx admits US officials 'didn't know how contagious' coronavirus was early in outbreak (https://www.foxnews.com/media/dr-deborah-birx-coronavirus-pandemic-contagious)
"The bottom line is we didn't know how contagious it was," Brix told Martha MacCallum during a special Fox News digital town hall event.
Clearly you need some new advisors at the White House because the rest of the world worked it out.
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Well, there are reports the wet markets have re-opened, so another 5 years.
The track record of the last few decades points to every 5 or 6 years a virus comes from these things. I think it would be best to end all travel to and from China and tariff all Chinese exports until they shut them down.
We cant afford to do this every 5 or 6 years.
Actually one of the trips I was planning this year was to rural China. Amazing culture, amazing scenery, amazing history and amazing people. Let's also not forget there is evidence that the Spanish flew originated from the USA.
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Getting back to actual facts,
Dr. Deborah Birx admits US officials 'didn't know how contagious' coronavirus was early in outbreak (https://www.foxnews.com/media/dr-deborah-birx-coronavirus-pandemic-contagious)
Dr. Deborah Birx, the response coordinator for the White House coronavirus task force, told Fox News Thursday that initial data about the coronavirus outbreak from China left U.S. officials unable to properly prepare for when the virus made its way to the U.S.
"The bottom line is we didn't know how contagious it was," Brix told Martha MacCallum during a special Fox News digital town hall event. "And I think when you make misassumptions around contagion early on, then you don't prepare in the way that you should prepare for the level of contagion that this COVID-19 exhibits."
If only that SOB had special mind reading powers and was able to tap into Xi's inner thoughts we could have avoided this. Or we can just admit this is no one's fault, other then China's, and move on to how we can fix it.
In other news, shit is getting pretty serious in the Philippines! Perhaps we should follow their example.
"Shoot them dead": Philippine President Rodrigo Duterte orders police and military to kill citizens who defy coronavirus lockdown (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/rodrigo-duterte-philippines-president-coronavirus-lockdown-shoot-people-dead/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab6a&linkId=85694697&fbclid=IwAR3Uvo1E_ZtTO5Vc9nK5OhDH1HPHDnX_dqr9ZVWaiAF820kWh36VQtiIbbc)
Fox News is da man...CNN is fake news.
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Clearly you need some new advisors at the White House because the rest of the world worked it out.
Really Bob?
I was in Australia just before all the lockdowns happened, and your country did not handle this any better then ours, not by any stretch. You had the same slow response that we did and appeared to impliment the same measures at the same period in time, or perhaps a little later.
I should also mention I belong to an Australian cigar forum and the Australians there do not act as if they had the magic formula. They are just as pissed as we are over here.
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Fox News is da man...CNN is fake news.
One of the articles I posted is from CBS.
Not to mention that is a direct quote from Birx. I dont see how you could have an issue with that.
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Actually one of the trips I was planning this year was to rural China. Amazing culture, amazing scenery, amazing history and amazing people. Let's also not forget there is evidence that the Spanish flew originated from the USA.
More then likely, yes, it did.
However, how many virus have originated from the West since we got our act together about safe food production? The Jungle had a pretty drastic impact on our culture and cleaned up a lot of the food industry.
However, China has refused to learn from us. You know, just like you insist that we, in the USA, learn from another country. Being kind of hypocritical aren't we?
So, in the last 30 years, several viruses that had the potential to become serious has originated from these wet markets. I would say it's time to insist these are closed down or China can go off by itself and not get invited back into the world stage.
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One of the articles I posted is from CBS.
Not to mention that is a direct quote from Birx. I dont see how you could have an issue with that.
There have been many direct quotes from Trump posted that you seem to continually debunk.
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There have been many direct quotes from Trump posted that you seem to continually debunk.
Could you go on please? I have no idea what you are getting at.
I was merely pointing that I dont get all my news, or the majority of my news, from Fox, which you implied with your snarky post.
And just like Peter Thiel, I take Trump seriously not literally. I don't listen to every single thing he says. I dont know anyone who does. You surely don't, and neither do any fellow conservatives I know.
If you still do, I dont care how disinterested you may be in politics, you're an idiot, plane and simple. I think he has been doing this long enough that almost no one actually takes him literally anymore, except for idiots.
We all know he likes to fluff stuff up, which is why everyone pays attention to what his advisers say as well.
I mean you talk about Trump like people actually listen to everything he says. Like there is this large group of Americans that takes every word out of his mouth as gospel. Good lord, you really need to get out more. Seriously, there is not a single person I know, on the right and certainly on the left, that listens to Trump the way you think people listen to him.
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Really Bob?
I was in Australia just before all the lockdowns happened, and your country did not handle this any better then ours, not by any stretch. You had the same slow response that we did and appeared to impliment the same measures at the same period in time, or perhaps a little later.
I should also mention I belong to an Australian cigar forum and the Australians there do not act as if they had the magic formula. They are just as pissed as we are over here.
Everyone is pissed. The reality is though that most are doing what they are told and it is under control. There are even joke groups on Facebook like Bin Isolation Outing. Check it out.
Australia - 25M people, 4900 cases, 21 deaths, 269 new cases today, 348 new cases yesterday.
Maybe something closer to you
Canada - 37M people, 9005 cases, 105 deaths, 1300 new cases today, 1400 new cases yesterday
USA - 300M people, 187,000 cases, 3846 deaths, 24,100 new cases today, 22,600 new cases yesterday.
Work it out yourselves, if you can.
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Do I hear crickets? ???
I think I do.
You said the way Trump handled this in preparing was the issue while acting as if it would be the case that if a different person was in charge, it would have been better. Well, first, the preparing part would have been pre-Italy, you know, before it broke out. That is how preparing works; it happens before the event. Second, if someone else is so much better at this, then at least one politician would have had the foresight to warn us, instead of wasting our time with impeachment. But no one actually did.
But anyway, crickets it is I guess.
PS, so who is your boogie man in Italy? The Italian death rate is up around 9%, much higher then ours. Your blood pressure must go through the roof when you think of their politicians.
No. I spoke about reaction.
My exact words were: "the point isn't the prepardness - although there is a lot to say on this - but they way he kept denying the scientific facts. Every day matters here and your attempts to paint everything in a fuzzy light is not intellectually honest"
I wonder if you realize the extend to which you have integrated and made your own the conversational tactics of Trump industry... which is basically about stopping to converse. Continue to unleash a stream of stuff whose only coherence is that it fits a predefined story line. Completely ignoring secondary things such as facts and opinions, however logical and sensible they may be.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Yeh...and it might have been smart to see what lessons were learned by other countries that tackled SARS...rather than learning those lessons for the first time.
the smart person learns from his mistakes. The wise person learns from the mistakes of others. Unfortunately most of us are not even smart.
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Grandchildren don't have to be let back in. Problem solved.
We have a daughter and her child (our grandchild) living with us. Do you think we should turf them out on the street....?
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Could you go on please? I have no idea what you are getting at.
I was merely pointing that I dont get all my news, or the majority of my news, from Fox, which you implied with your snarky post.
And just like Peter Thiel, 1. I take Trump seriously not literally. 2. I don't listen to every single thing he says. 3. I dont know anyone who does. You surely don't, and neither do any fellow conservatives I know.
4. If you still do, I dont care how disinterested you may be in politics, you're an idiot, plane and simple. I think he has been doing this long enough that almost no one actually takes him literally anymore, except for idiots.
We all know he likes to fluff stuff up, which is why everyone pays attention to what his advisers say as well.
I mean you talk about Trump like people actually listen to everything he says. Like there is this large group of Americans that takes every word out of his mouth as gospel. Good lord, you really need to get out more. Seriously, there is not a single person I know, on the right and certainly on the left, that listens to Trump the way you think people listen to him.
1. That's a clever trick!
2. That's not surprising, but it weakens all of your arguments quite substantially.
3. The leader that nobody who supports him listens to because...
4. Both offensive to the poster addressed, and at last, a frank admission that the republican god is thought an idiot by - republicans.
Think of the time and electricity you could have saved the forum had you admitted all of this up front, in the usual, in-your-face, USA way of straight talking.
But anyway, as you have shown, truth will eventually out!
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Interesting data from Google, tracking the movement of people in various countries, and hence the efficacy of their 'stay at home' policies.
The US seems to be failing when compared to European countries. Perhaps this is due to the celebrated 'American psyche'?
(Sadly no data from China, the only country that seems to have got the virus under control.)
https://www.google.com/covid19/mobility/
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I thought the original point of this thread was to discuss the Coronavirus. Part of that could also be to discuss the response and actions of the governments in charge. What I don't understand is why any criticism of the way Trump has handled this in the US is deemed to be political. He is the leader and so has to be held to account for his actions - but to say he's not doing a good job does not have to imply that a leader from the opposite side of the political spectrum would do any better.
To compare with the UK - while initially the Conservative government appeared to be closely following the medical and scientific advice, in the past few days there is questioning over their priorities in ramping up testing, the supply of testing equipment and the logistics of Personal Protective Equipment. Yet I do not sense anything political in this - nobody seems to be saying a different colour of government could do better.
From what I can see of the arguments here, mainly from US citizens, is that everything is about Trump's personality cult. If you don't like him you must be a liberal etc.
He may have been good news for the US economy - but is he the right leader for the current crisis? There is nothing political in that question either. Personally from what I see of him (which like 99% of the worlds population is on the TV) - I cannot stand the guy. His self-satisfied smirk, the way he averts his gaze so often when he should be making eye contact, the ridiculously childish vocabulary he uses - his inability to be honest and say "I was wrong, but now that I understand the problem I am going to do my very best to sort it" rather than try to make out he always had a 'cunning plan' (for a British audience). I'm not being political because at the moment I don't care whether it is a Republican or a Democrat in charge. It would be nice to have a trustworthy President though.
Jim
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Could you go on please? I have no idea what you are getting at.
I was merely pointing that I dont get all my news, or the majority of my news, from Fox, which you implied with your snarky post.
And just like Peter Thiel, I take Trump seriously not literally. I don't listen to every single thing he says. I dont know anyone who does. You surely don't, and neither do any fellow conservatives I know.
If you still do, I dont care how disinterested you may be in politics, you're an idiot, plane and simple. I think he has been doing this long enough that almost no one actually takes him literally anymore, except for idiots.
We all know he likes to fluff stuff up, which is why everyone pays attention to what his advisers say as well.
I mean you talk about Trump like people actually listen to everything he says. Like there is this large group of Americans that takes every word out of his mouth as gospel. Good lord, you really need to get out more. Seriously, there is not a single person I know, on the right and certainly on the left, that listens to Trump the way you think people listen to him.
This is surreal...
The issue with Trump isn't - only or even mostly - what he says... it's what he does... or doesn't do. Or does late.
And what he hasn't done in this case is exactly the reason why the communist magazine Fortune wrote in January "why Trump is bad for business" on the cover page of the magazine.
Because even if the stock market, with the opportunistic leanings we have learned to like, has temporarily gone up at the end of the day what matters is the total story. The big picture. And you cannot only get the good Trump - or the filtered version of the good Trump where you only hear the part you want to hear - no, you get only one Trump. And that one Trump is responsible for thousands of casualties because he applied the same recipe this time again... to not listen to the people who knew. Those educated scientists with a degree. And those casualities are responsible for a late lock down that is/will end up being several times as bad as it could have been had the right decisions taken timely when all the evidence was visible in Europe already for weeks.
So that same Trump you have kept praising for his positive impact on the economy is directly responsible for how bad the current collapse is, how long millions of people will have to remain un-employed, how bad an impact the support packages will have on the US debt,... all that because he waited 3 weeks too long in order to not impact the economy he is now hurting more badly than any president before him.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Do I hear crickets? ???
I think I do.
You said the way Trump handled this in preparing was the issue while acting as if it would be the case that if a different person was in charge, it would have been better. Well, first, the preparing part would have been pre-Italy, you know, before it broke out. That is how preparing works; it happens before the event. Second, if someone else is so much better at this, then at least one politician would have had the foresight to warn us, instead of wasting our time with impeachment. But no one actually did.
But anyway, crickets it is I guess.
PS, so who is your boogie man in Italy? The Italian death rate is up around 9%, much higher then ours. Your blood pressure must go through the roof when you think of their politicians.
If this February the 5th tweet is too much for you to handle then please don't read this link from Charlie Syke's "The Bulwark" - you know Charlie Sykes, the (ex?) Rebublican?
Alan, this link gives a pretty detailed timeline of your government's response to the problem. It would be fair to make the observation that the early warnings - pre 2020, cannot be blamed on Trump, I think it would be unfair to expect him be told any of that, let alone expect him to take some sort of action.
However, if you read Micheal Lewis's (The Big Short, Moneyball etc...) "The Fifth Risk" you will learn how Steve Bannon's "deconstructing government" idea was put into effect.... it is not then difficult to understand why your government's response would not be optimal - they have hollowed out "the deep state" and replaced them with political hacks and "yesmen". For that, Trump must take responsibility.... Now you have the Perfect Storm.
Joe, if, on the 29th February Trump made his "the hype about the corona virus is another Democrat hoax" rally speech, surely that means that Democrats were criticising his efforts before that date? Mid-February perhaps?
https://thebulwark.com/warnings-ignored-a-timeline-of-trumps-covid-19-response/
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Interesting data from Google, tracking the movement of people in various countries, and hence the efficacy of their 'stay at home' policies.
The US seems to be failing when compared to European countries. Perhaps this is due to the celebrated 'American psyche'?
(Sadly no data from China, the only country that seems to have got the virus under control.)
I have been watching some stuff going on in China. They and several countries now have apps monitoring people that are supposed to be in isolation. They also have a lot of CCTV with face recognition that works even through masks. If you don't isolate then you probably will be caught.
DJI have manufactured a lot of Drones. They are being used to spray public areas, transport medical samples and deliver food to those in isolation.
In Australia we are looking to start using drones for spraying too. At the moment no apps but police and the army are door knocking for people who are supposed to be self isolating.
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Could you go on please? I have no idea what you are getting at.
I was merely pointing that I dont get all my news, or the majority of my news, from Fox, which you implied with your snarky post.
And just like Peter Thiel, I take Trump seriously not literally. I don't listen to every single thing he says. I dont know anyone who does. You surely don't, and neither do any fellow conservatives I know.
[...]
You say that you take Trump seriously, not literally. Wat is it that you do take seriously?
You say that you don't listen to every little thing he says. Why not?
The things that Trumps says (however stupid), has an effect and may affect you. Case in point, there is Governors who has been following Trump's (initial) lead (the economy being more important than people's health) and as an excuse claims to have just heard 24-hours ago that Asymptomatic infection is an issue, so they are considering a stricter social distancing regime. Duh.
Whatever Trump says, will inspire fools to please him, and that will affect YOU! So you better do listen to every stupid thing he says.
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South Korea has 89 new cases today. The USA has 24,100 new case today...
And per capita? Plus timing difference?
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And per capita? Plus timing difference?
SK — 2 new cases per million population
US — 74 new cases per million population
Both countries had their first case 20 Jan 2020
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And per capita? Plus timing difference?
Deaths per 1 million
S. Korea - 3
Australia - 1
Finland - 3
Greece - 5
Singapore - 1
Croatia - 2
Canada - 5
Czechia - 4
USA - 18
UK - 43
France - 83
Spain - 243
Italy - 230
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Don't forget that the US is very sparse with testing versus Korea. As testing ramps up so do the number of reported cases. Korea was very aggressive with testing as they were prepared from the previous H1N1 outbreak.
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... I take Trump seriously not literally. I don't listen to every single thing he says. I dont know anyone who does. You surely don't, and neither do any fellow conservatives I know.
If you still do, I dont care how disinterested you may be in politics, you're an idiot, plane and simple. I think he has been doing this long enough that almost no one actually takes him literally anymore, except for idiots.
We all know he likes to fluff stuff up, which is why everyone pays attention to what his advisers say as well.
I mean you talk about Trump like people actually listen to everything he says. Like there is this large group of Americans that takes every word out of his mouth as gospel. Good lord, you really need to get out more. Seriously, there is not a single person I know, on the right and certainly on the left, that listens to Trump the way you think people listen to him.
Amen, brother!
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And per capita? Plus timing difference?
At this point in time, per capita is wholly irrelevant (again)!
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49730423701_617bb2a1b9_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iLvqoi)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49730417596_f6bffe5ab7_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iLvoz3)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49730767132_9329583ce7_b.jpg)
(https://flic.kr/p/2iLxbtw)
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SK — 2 new cases per million population
US — 74 new cases per million population
Both countries had their first case 20 Jan 2020
That's NY. And everybody knows NY is not America and America is not NY ;)
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Deaths per 1 million
...
USA - 18
UK - 43
France - 83
Spain - 243
Italy - 230
Big countries with socialized medicine. Hmmmm....
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At this point in time, per capita is wholly irrelevant (again)!...
Seriously!? Because you say so?
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We have a daughter and her child (our grandchild) living with us. Do you think we should turf them out on the street....?
If they were foolish enough to go to Spring Break, which is what that post was in reference to, Spring Breakers.
Was your daughter partying it up down south this year?
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Seriously!? Because you say so?
No, because the rate of increase (aka momentum) is irrelevant to whether one starts with a base of 100 or 100 mill.
Yes.
[...]
If comparing prevalence of cancer between countries, you’d adjust per capita, because it’s not a transmissible disease: it comes from lifestyle, genes, pure chance, so if per-capita rate is higher in A than B, then that’s because of something specific to that country. Covid spreads from person to person; it’s not like cancer. It’s exogenous.
Generally, these digressions are not informative regarding HOW a country’s dealing with Covid-19. So all we should be focussed on is the % increase as a measure of expansion (and containment). The rest can come later.
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Big countries with socialized medicine. Hmmmm....
Here is another country with socialized medicine: Germany - only 13 deaths per 1 million
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Big countries with socialized medicine. Hmmmm....
Give the US time to catch up; it came late to the party.
As an observation, I can imagine that the southern European way of kissed greetings, much café living, and closer family relationships than in more western countries has also played a part in the spreading of the virus. Europeans are a more tactile bunch of people. Maybe they have and enjoy more shared sex.
There is no free love: somebody always pays. (Suzi Quatro's mother said that.)
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This is surreal...
The issue with Trump isn't - only or even mostly - what he says... it's what he does... or doesn't do. Or does late.
And what he hasn't done in this case is exactly the reason why the communist magazine Fortune wrote in January "why Trump is bad for business" on the cover page of the magazine.
Because even if the stock market, with the opportunistic leanings we have learned to like, has temporarily gone up at the end of the day what matters is the total story. The big picture. And you cannot only get the good Trump - or the filtered version of the good Trump where you only hear the part you want to hear - no, you get only one Trump. And that one Trump is responsible for thousands of casualties because he applied the same recipe this time again... to not listen to the people who knew. Those educated scientists with a degree. And those casualities are responsible for a late lock down that is/will end up being several times as bad as it could have been had the right decisions taken timely when all the evidence was visible in Europe already for weeks.
So that same Trump you have kept praising for his positive impact on the economy is directly responsible for how bad the current collapse is, how long millions of people will have to remain un-employed, how bad an impact the support packages will have on the US debt,... all that because he waited 3 weeks too long in order to not impact the economy he is now hurting more badly than any president before him.
Cheers,
Bernard
So when did Trump stop travel from China? January, before every other country. He also started shutting down travel to/from Europe beginning of March. When did Trump shut down the country, middle of March, like everyone else. Did Trump reopen the country even though he said he wanted by Easter. No, he extended it.
Please explain to me how this is doing nothing and not listening to the experts.
You and so many others get caught up in the minutia of what he says, but not what he means or does.
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4. Both offensive to the poster addressed, and at last, a frank admission that the republican god is thought an idiot by - republicans.
Think of the time and electricity you could have saved the forum had you admitted all of this up front, in the usual, in-your-face, USA way of straight talking.
But anyway, as you have shown, truth will eventually out!
It's only offensive to those that actually take him literally Rob, and if you're stupid enough to do so after over 3 years as president, then yes, you're an idiot.
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So when did Trump stop travel from China? January, before every other country. When did Trump shut down the country, middle of March, like everyone else. Did Trump reopen the country even though he said he wanted by Easter. No, he extended it.
Please explain to me how this is doing nothing and not listening to the experts.
You and so many others get caught up in the minutia of what he says, but not what he means or does.
You are again assuming a lot. In this case, that he knows what he means or does. It certainly doesn't look that way.
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If this February the 5th tweet is too much for you to handle then please don't read this link from Charlie Syke's "The Bulwark" - you know Charlie Sykes, the (ex?) Rebublican?
Alan, this link gives a pretty detailed timeline of your government's response to the problem. It would be fair to make the observation that the early warnings - pre 2020, cannot be blamed on Trump, I think it would be unfair to expect him be told any of that, let alone expect him to take some sort of action.
However, if you read Micheal Lewis's (The Big Short, Moneyball etc...) "The Fifth Risk" you will learn how Steve Bannon's "deconstructing government" idea was put into effect.... it is not then difficult to understand why your government's response would not be optimal - they have hollowed out "the deep state" and replaced them with political hacks and "yesmen". For that, Trump must take responsibility.... Now you have the Perfect Storm.
Joe, if, on the 29th February Trump made his "the hype about the corona virus is another Democrat hoax" rally speech, surely that means that Democrats were criticising his efforts before that date? Mid-February perhaps?
https://thebulwark.com/warnings-ignored-a-timeline-of-trumps-covid-19-response/
Where is the rest of his statement saying we need a $2T stimulus and the country needs to be closed down for 6 weeks?
Notice I wrote to the same level as we are talking about it now.
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It's only offensive to that you actually take him literally Rob, and if you're stupid enough to so after over 3 years of as president, then yes, you're an idiot.
In other words, he's talking in tongues.
Explains why he goes down so well in the bible class.
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That's NY. And everybody knows NY is not America and America is not NY ;)
Louisana is worse than New York. Not so much because of lack of ventilators, as due to risky life style.
Along with New York and Seattle, New Orleans has emerged as one of the early U.S. hot spots for the coronavirus, making it a national test case for how to control and treat the disease it causes. Chief among the concerns raised by doctors working in the Louisiana city is the death rate, which is twice that of New York and over four times that of Seattle, based on Thursday’s publicly reported data.
New Orleans residents suffer from obesity, diabetes and hypertension at rates higher than the national average, conditions that doctors and public health officials say can make patients more vulnerable to COVID-19, the highly contagious respiratory disease caused by the coronavirus. Some 97% of those killed by COVID-19 in Louisiana had a pre-existing condition, according to the state health department. Diabetes was seen in 40% of the deaths, obesity in 25%, chronic kidney disease in 23% and cardiac problems in 21%.
https://nationalpost.com/news/world/covid-19-new-orleans-coronavirus-death-rate-is-twice-new-yorks-and-obesity-is-a-factor
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You say that you take Trump seriously, not literally. Wat is it that you do take seriously?
You say that you don't listen to every little thing he says. Why not?
The things that Trumps says (however stupid), has an effect and may affect you. Case in point, there is Governors who has been following Trump's (initial) lead (the economy being more important than people's health) and as an excuse claims to have just heard 24-hours ago that Asymptomatic infection is an issue, so they are considering a stricter social distancing regime. Duh.
Whatever Trump says, will inspire fools to please him, and that will affect YOU! So you better do listen to every stupid thing he says.
Bart, I really dont think any of the Democratic Governors listen to him. If they did, we would not have any sanctuary cities or states. Please provide me with which governors you are talking about.
As of now, the only governors I know of that are not putting in stricter rules are those in states where agriculture is a major part of their economy. Like it or not, it is planting season, and those plants need to get into the ground. Shutting down the state would greatly hamper that.
Not only that, it is planting season throughout nearly the entire northern hemisphere. If exceptions are not made everywhere where agriculture is a big part of the economy, we will have a food shortage in 4 or 5 months.
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Bart, I really dont think any of the Democratic Governors listen to him. If they did, we would not have any sanctuary cities or states. Please provide me with which governors you are talking about.
These ?
Something odd happened at Donald Trump’s daily press conference earlier this week. A chief executive — Mike Lindell of My Pillow which makes, er, pillows — declared that God chose Trump to be America’s president. He then added: “God had been taken out of our schools and lives. A nation had turned its back on God, and I encourage you to use this time at home to get back in the ‘Word’.” Trump admitted that he was not expecting Lindell to say that. He should not have been surprised. Lindell, whose company has agreed to make 50,000 cotton masks a day, is a longtime Trump fundraiser, whom the president wants to run for Minnesota governor in 2022. He is also a heavy-duty evangelist.
Many see the epidemic as divine retribution for our sins. Forty-four per cent of likely US voters see the coronavirus and the attendant economic meltdown as “a wake-up call to God’s faith, a sign of God’s coming judgment, or both”, according to McLaughlin & Associates - Trump’s pollsters.
This week, Florida, Georgia, Texas and Mississippi finally imposed varying degrees of “shelter-in-place” orders. Each of them, however, made an exception for churches.
[...]
If mass-illiterate medieval Europe could eventually figure it out, 21st century America has no excuse. Governors that have granted social distancing exceptions for churches are in breach of America’s separation of church and state. Their duty is to protect the citizens they serve, not the evangelists.
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These ?
Something odd happened at Donald Trump’s daily press conference earlier this week. A chief executive — Mike Lindell of My Pillow which makes, er, pillows — declared that God chose Trump to be America’s president. He then added: “God had been taken out of our schools and lives. A nation had turned its back on God, and I encourage you to use this time at home to get back in the ‘Word’.” Trump admitted that he was not expecting Lindell to say that. He should not have been surprised. Lindell, whose company has agreed to make 50,000 cotton masks a day, is a longtime Trump fundraiser, whom the president wants to run for Minnesota governor in 2022. He is also a heavy-duty evangelist.
Many see the epidemic as divine retribution for our sins. Forty-four per cent of likely US voters see the coronavirus and the attendant economic meltdown as “a wake-up call to God’s faith, a sign of God’s coming judgment, or both”, according to McLaughlin & Associates - Trump’s pollsters.
This week, Florida, Georgia, Texas and Mississippi finally imposed varying degrees of “shelter-in-place” orders. Each of them, however, made an exception for churches.
[...]
If mass-illiterate medieval Europe could eventually figure it out, 21st century America has no excuse. Governors that have granted social distancing exceptions for churches are in breach of America’s separation of church and state. Their duty is to protect the citizens they serve, not the evangelists.
I seriously doubt the My-Pillow guy is to blame for governors giving exemptions to churches. Not to mention, Trump has been asking the entire country to close down, but the Federal government does not have the right to do so. Only the states do.
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Trump's last few televised updates have seen him standing shoulder to shoulder with others: solidarity or stupidity?
What ever happened to social distancing?
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< This week, Florida, Georgia, Texas and Mississippi finally imposed varying degrees of “shelter-in-place” orders. Each of them, however, made an exception for churches. >
< Trump has been asking the entire country to close down, but the Federal government does not have the right to do so. Only the states do. ? >
Joe, are these Dem or Rep governors ?
... and we're not listening to the same broadcasts, until only two days ago, he wanted the whole country 'back' by Easter.
... not to mention the sacking of the Captain of the US aircraft carrier Theodore Roosevelt :
Captain Brett Crozier, the ship’s commanding officer, wrote that the carrier lacked enough quarantine and isolation facilities and warned the current strategy would slow but fail to eradicate the highly contagious respiratory virus. In the letter dated Monday, he called for “decisive action” and removing over 4,000 sailors from the ship and isolating them. Along with the ship’s crew, naval aviators and others serve aboard the Roosevelt.
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I shouldn't have called them morons. They aren't. Self-loving, power-seeking narcissists would have been better.
Johns Hopkins has identified 1,007,977 cases known to have been infected worldwide, of which most have been in the US.
Global death toll has passed 50,000
Italy remains the worst affected with 13,915 deaths, followed by
Spain, 10,003.
USA, 5,316 total deaths.
In all, at least 52,771 people are known to have died worldwide.
The first death in Italy occurred on the 22-February
9-March lockdown orders extended to the whole of Italy.
2,977 died in 9/11
2,403 died at Pearl Harbour in 1841
US entering a critical 14-day period and between this thread and the previous one, over 100 pages have been spent bitchin' about Dems and Republicans preaching their virtues. Nice one.
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Where is the rest of his statement saying we need a $2T stimulus and the country needs to be closed down for 6 weeks?
Notice I wrote to the same level as we are talking about it now.
Joe, I am sorry, I don't understand you reply... not serious, don't worry! It strikes me as a poor attempt to move the goalposts.
You asked Bernard for proof that politicians were talking about this in February, I supplied you with the proof. I also believe that Tom Cotton tried to persuade Trump to take this thing seriously on the 29th of February: why would he do that if things were going as well as you suggest? And, of course, we all know what Richard Burr said on the 27th February.
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Trump Asks Deutsche Bank and Palm Beach County to Give His Businesses a Break
Donald Trump’s company has asked its biggest lender, German financial giant Deutsche Bank, for a break on repaying some of its loans. The Trump Organization has also asked Palm Beach County for similar leeway on rent payments the president owes on one of his Florida golf courses.
As much as three quarters of Trump’s revenue in recent years has come from his travel-related businesses. Nearly all of Trump’s properties are shuttered; some are barely operating, with limited offerings. In all, the Trump Organization has laid off or furloughed more than 1,000 employees. The shutdowns may be costing the president as much as $680,000 a day in revenue.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-02/trump-organization-asks-deutsche-bank-for-loan-payment-delay
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< This week, Florida, Georgia, Texas and Mississippi finally imposed varying degrees of “shelter-in-place” orders. Each of them, however, made an exception for churches. >
< Trump has been asking the entire country to close down, but the Federal government does not have the right to do so. Only the states do. ? >
Joe, are these Dem or Rep governors ?
... and we're not listening to the same broadcasts, until only two days ago, he wanted the whole country 'back' by Easter.
... not to mention the sacking of the Captain of the US aircraft carrier Theodore Roosevelt :
This goes back to my point of you are taking him literally, but not seriously. He was being aspirational and wanted to give the country hope saying he wanted to open by Easter. But guess what, as new data came in, he changed his mind. Wow! I know crazy, a politician changing his mind, and 16 days prior to Easter too. So, it looks like he actually listened to the experts here, again.
Insofar as the captain, he broke the chain of command and went directly to the press. He deserved to get fired. Obama did the same thing to General McChrystal. I know a few people in the military, and they would all feel this was the correct thing to do. People are demoted for less offense over breaking the chain of command.
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Joe, I am sorry, I don't understand you reply... not serious, don't worry! It strikes me as a poor attempt to move the goalposts.
You asked Bernard for proof that politicians were talking about this in February, I supplied you with the proof. I also believe that Tom Cotton tried to persuade Trump to take this thing seriously on the 29th of February: why would he do that if things were going as well as you suggest?
Go back and re-read all of my post on this, and you'll see I did not move the goal post.
I stated in every post asking for one politician that I want to see a statement of that person taking this as seriously as we are now. In every single post, I stated this.
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Trump Asks Deutsche Bank and Palm Beach County to Give His Businesses a Break
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-02/trump-organization-asks-deutsche-bank-for-loan-payment-delay
And so is every other business. Even AOC suggested that renters go to their landlords and do this. Add to that, that the relief bill specifically states that no businesses that have ownership connections to USA politicians are eligible for relief, which was specifically aimed at Trump. This would make even more the case that his properties would need to do this.
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Insofar as the captain, he broke the chain of command and went directly to the press. He deserved to get fired.
Well that's novel:
Secretary of the Navy Thomas Modly announced on Thursday: "Today at my direction the commanding officer of the USS Theodore Roosevelt, Captain Brett Crozier, was relieved of command by carrier strike group commander Rear Admiral Stewart Baker," Modly said during a Pentagon press briefing.
Modly told reporters that Crozier was removed for showing "extremely poor judgment" and creating a "firestorm" by too widely disseminating the memo detailing his concerns, copying some 20 to 30 people.
He said Crozier was not removed because of any evidence suggesting he leaked the memo to the press, but rather for allowing "the complexity of his challenge with the Covid breakout on the ship to overwhelm his ability to act professionally when acting professionally was what was needed the most at the time."
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Go back and re-read all of my post on this, and you'll see I did not move the goal post.
I stated in every post asking for one politician that I want to see a statement of that person taking this as seriously as we are now. In every single post, I stated this.
So Chris Murphy's tweet, not good enough for you?
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Well that's novel:
You apparently are more up to date on the specifics, or at least what the Pentagon is releasing. The facts though are that it made it to the press, and more then likely due to his actions, whether directly or indirectly. Or at least the inside story appears to be he went directly to the press himself.
But anyway, do you know anyone in the military? Breaking the chain of command is taken pretty seriously.
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So Chris Murphy's tweet, not good enough for you?
Nope.
I want to see something where a politician was suggesting we need to take as serious actions as we are now. Show me someone telling the country that we need to do is something up to the level we have done now, like shutting it down for 6 weeks.
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The facts though are that it made it to the press, and more then likely due to his actions, whether directly or indirectly. Or at least the inside story appears to be he went directly to the press himself.
But anyway, do you know anyone in the military? Breaking the chain of command is taken pretty seriously.
Point taken, so whose word am I to believe - yours or the Secretary of the Navy, Thomas Modly ?
He said Crozier was not removed because of any evidence suggesting he leaked the memo to the press, but rather for allowing "the complexity of his challenge with the Covid breakout on the ship to overwhelm his ability to act professionally when acting professionally was what was needed the most at the time."
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That's NY. And everybody knows NY is not America and America is not NY ;)
Hey wait a minute. I'm a New Yorker all my life. Now my wife is from Brooklyn. And well you know what they say about that. :)
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Point taken, so whose word am I to believe - yours or the Secretary of the Navy, Thomas Modly ?
Navy relieves captain who raised alarm about coronavirus outbreak on aircraft carrier (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/military/navy-expected-relieve-captain-who-raised-alarm-about-covid-19-n1175351)
NBC?
Crozier raised the alarm this week, sending a strongly worded letter to Navy leadership that detailed his concerns about the spread of the virus on the ship. The letter leaked to the media and generated a series of headlines.
Speaking at a news conference Thursday evening, Acting Navy Secretary Thomas Modly said Crozier was removed from his post because he sent the letter over "non-secure unclassified email" to a "broad array of people" rather than up the chain of command.
The navy has stated he broke the chain of command, as I said. People are demoted for less serious infractions when breaking the chain of command.
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Nope.
I want to see something where a politician was suggesting we need to take as serious actions as we are now. Show me someone telling the country that we need to do is something up to the level we have done now, like shutting it down for 6 weeks.
Joe, you are incorrigible... :)
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Joe, you are incorrigible... :)
;)
But I have been consistent on this. I wrote in every single post that I wanted to see a politician take it as serious as we are now pre-Italy.
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Point taken, so whose word am I to believe - yours or the Secretary of the Navy, Thomas Modly ?
The problem is that you are taking Modly literally. Obviously he meant the opposite of what he said. The captain was fired for going to the press.
Modly understands this lieterally-seriously thing. Remember that the captain said he had an corona virus outbreak on his hands. Modly didn't take the captain literally. He really meant only one or two guys. So why make a fuss. Clearly, the captain overreacted, which is why he was fired. Correctly so.
Get with the program Manoli. Haven't you ever seen a Monty Python skit?
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Bernard's wet dream:
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NBC?
Crozier raised the alarm this week, sending a strongly worded letter to Navy leadership that detailed his concerns about the spread of the virus on the ship. The letter leaked to the media and generated a series of headlines.
Speaking at a news conference Thursday evening, Acting Navy Secretary Thomas Modly said Crozier was removed from his post because he sent the letter over "non-secure unclassified email" to a "broad array of people" rather than up the chain of command.
Less than 24 hours and they still can't get the 'story' right, self-contradiction right of the bat. Which one is it ?
And, frankly, ITM, where are we with the 4,000 complement of the aircraft carrier ?
For a final aside, look up Captain Rochefort, Vice Admiral Leyton and Nimitz - see if that historical matter of record doesn't strike a chord ...
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Joe, I'm out of here. See post #676.
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So when did Trump stop travel from China? January, before every other country. He also started shutting down travel to/from Europe beginning of March. When did Trump shut down the country, middle of March, like everyone else. Did Trump reopen the country even though he said he wanted by Easter. No, he extended it.
Please explain to me how this is doing nothing and not listening to the experts.
You and so many others get caught up in the minutia of what he says, but not what he means or does.
The dates are not super accurate but the article below, on top of all the evidence shown by others here demonstrate that Trump is at least two weeks late in his reactions.
https://www.google.co.jp/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/5103335002
And that’s 2 weeks late compared to a country (France) that was itself late by 2 weeks.
But I don’t even know why I am trying to provide you with facts since, once again, you have obviously decided that you could do without them.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Here is another country with socialized medicine: Germany - only 13 deaths per 1 million
Canada has 5.
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Get with the program Manoli. Haven't you ever seen a Monty Python skit?
You are so right! I'm struggling ... :)
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Looks like someone was ahead of the curve here.
After mocking Trump for promoting hydroxychloroquine, journalists acknowledge it might treat coronavirus (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/after-mocking-trump-promoting-hydroxychloroquine-media-acknowleges-might-treat-coronavirus)
Some backtracking by the media.
Malaria Drug Helps Virus Patients Improve, in Small Study (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/01/health/hydroxychloroquine-coronavirus-malaria.html)
Do I think Trump got everything right here, of course not. Do I think anyone else, even a Democrat, would have done better, of course. The abject failure of nearly every government in the world proves that, and those that did a little better only did so out of luck from having to deal with H1N1.
But at least Trump was not dismissing ideas from the other side of the aisle just out of spite.
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Less than 24 hours and they still can't get the 'story' right, self-contradiction right of the bat. Which one is it ?
And, frankly, ITM, where are we with the 4,000 complement of the aircraft carrier ?
For a final aside, look up Captain Rochefort, Vice Admiral Leyton and Nimitz - see if that historical matter of record doesn't strike a chord ...
--
Joe, I'm out of here. See post #676.
What the hell are you talking about, what self contradiction? I have seen the same charge of going outside the chain of command for the last couple of days. Sure, the story has developed, but it has been consistent on he broke the chain of command.
What post 676, and where? I am close to #3000 and you're way over that number too.
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Looks like someone was ahead of the curve here.
After mocking Trump for promoting hydroxychloroquine, journalists acknowledge it might treat coronavirus (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/after-mocking-trump-promoting-hydroxychloroquine-media-acknowleges-might-treat-coronavirus)
Some backtracking by the media.
Malaria Drug Helps Virus Patients Improve, in Small Study (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/01/health/hydroxychloroquine-coronavirus-malaria.html)
Do I think Trump got everything right here, of course not. Do I think anyone else, even a Democrat, would have done better, of course. The abject failure of nearly every government in the world proves that, and those that did a little better only did so out of luck from having to deal with H1N1.
But at least Trump was not dismissing ideas from the other side of the aisle just out of spite.
Trump was indeed promoting any argument supporting his theory that the covid19 was not a big deal.
Had he come accross an article claiming that masturbation helped he would have promoted that.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Big countries with socialized medicine. Hmmmm....
A virus doesn't care about your political persuasion, as you should know...
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Canada has 5.
Canada was included in the post #654 on pg 33 to which Slobodan responded. Here it is again:
Deaths per 1 million
S. Korea - 3
Australia - 1
Finland - 3
Greece - 5
Singapore - 1
Croatia - 2
Canada - 5
Czechia - 4
Germany - 13
USA - 18
UK - 43
France - 83
Spain - 243
Italy - 230
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The dates are not super accurate but the article below, on top of all the evidence shown by others here demonstrate that Trump is at least two weeks late in his reactions.
https://www.google.co.jp/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/5103335002
And that’s 2 weeks late compared to a country (France) that was itself late by 2 weeks.
But I don’t even know why I am trying to provide you with facts since, once again, you have obviously decided that you could do without them.
Cheers,
Bernard
The fact is, he took actions, some drastic actions, which you are insisting he did not.
France was hit before we were, so they were forced to take actions prior to us. Would I have liked Trump to do so earlier, maybe. Do I think the country would have listened earlier, no. But that is not the point. He did take some very serious actions and has continued to evolve as more data has come in.
On top of that, we have a federal form of government, and Trump can not legally shut down the country. Only governors can do that. Holding him responsible for actions of the governor's shows a complete lack of knowledge on USA civics.
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Here is another country with socialized medicine: Germany - only 13 deaths per 1 million
My New Jersey has gotten hit pretty hard due to our proximity to NYC where many people commute for work. They apparently brought the disease back to NJ. If you look at the current map and statistics, you can see how NJ counties closest to NYC are worse. There are 61 deaths per million and going up. By comparison, every year, a total of about 8500 per million die in the US of all causes.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/new-jersey-coronavirus-cases.html
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/deaths.htm
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Seriously!? Because you say so?
No, because people who are (still) capable of thinking know that the spread of a virus doesn't care about how large the population is. It just takes a bit longer before all of the people get infected. The growth rate is only dependent on the preventative, or (at a later stage) mitigation, attempts put into actual action.
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Bart, I really dont think any of the Democratic Governors listen to him. If they did, we would not have any sanctuary cities or states. Please provide me with which governors you are talking about.
Georgia Governor, Brian Kemp.
https://www.msnbc.com/all-in/watch/georgia-governor-admits-he-just-learned-asymptomatic-people-can-spread-covid-19-81570885546
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Johns Hopkins has identified 1,007,977 cases known to have been infected worldwide, of which most have been in the US.
Global death toll has passed 50,000
Italy remains the worst affected with 13,915 deaths, followed by
Spain, 10,003.
USA, 5,316 total deaths.
In all, at least 52,771 people are known to have died worldwide.
The first death in Italy occurred on the 22-February
9-March lockdown orders extended to the whole of Italy.
2,977 died in 9/11
2,403 died at Pearl Harbour in 1841
US entering a critical 14-day period and between this thread and the previous one, over 100 pages have been spent bitchin' about Dems and Republicans preaching their virtues. Nice one.
Okay, so I only just noticed individual posts in each topic are numbered as well. I took a look at your post, and to me it seems like that no matter what, it is almost always the case that some liberal on here starts bashing Trump for no apparrent reason. Trump is almost always brought up by a liberal to bash, creating the situation where conservatives need to then defend.
Even the more jovial "What Will You Do During the Plague Year?" topic, Fabberyman couldn't help himself and needed to add an anti-Trump post on the first page. It seems to me, it is the liberals here who cant control themselves when it comes to discussing Trump.
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Trump's last few televised updates have seen him standing shoulder to shoulder with others: solidarity or stupidity?
What ever happened to social distancing?
Your picky comment is typical from those who will find everything he does as wrong. What confidence and hope would a president inspire if he was hiding in his basement like Biden?
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Georgia Governor, Brian Kemp.
https://www.msnbc.com/all-in/watch/georgia-governor-admits-he-just-learned-asymptomatic-people-can-spread-covid-19-81570885546
That has been known for a while now; I believe I heard this in February. Perhaps the voters will solve this problem and not re-elect him. But blaming Trump for him not know something that was reported on constantly is a stretch.
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Trump was indeed promoting any argument supporting his theory that the covid19 was not a big deal.
Had he come accross an article claiming that masturbation helped he would have promoted that.
Cheers,
Bernard
Yep, he was promoting all those crazy arguments from medical doctors that just so happens to look like were correct.
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Another liberal madness:
https://www.foxnews.com/us/malibu-paddleboarder-arrested-for-violating-stay-at-home-order
Who was he going to infect? Sharks?
On the other hand, interactions with multiple police were much more dangerous.
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Don't know what you watch, but I saw him right there in one of his campaigns surrounded by his sheep saying exactly that. How can you even defend this guy when he's right there on video with his lips flapping and getting cheers from his sheep.
And you failed to listen, then didn’t you. He did not call the virus a hoax, he call the Dems attempt to polities the hoax. sheesh you guys with TDS are something.
Trump:
“ Now the Democrats are politicizing the coronavirus, you know that, right?” he said. “Coronavirus, they’re politicizing it. We did one of the great jobs. You say, ‘How’s President Trump doing?’ They go, ‘Oh, not good, not good.’ They have no clue. They don’t have any clue. They can’t even count their votes in Iowa.”
Then the president, who often dismissed special counsel Robert Mueller’s Russia investigation as a hoax, continued, “They tried the impeachment hoax. That was on a perfect conversation. They tried anything. They tried it over and over. They’d been doing it since you got in. It’s all turning. They lost. It’s all turning. Think of it. Think of it. And this is their new hoax.”
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Clear to most scientists, cloudy to most politicians.
Yea and a good part of the scientists got it wrong too.
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The fact is, he took actions, some drastic actions, which you are insisting he did not.
Something about a barn door is rattling around in my mind.
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https://www.foxnews.com/politics/after-mocking-trump-promoting-hydroxychloroquine-media-acknowleges-might-treat-coronavirus
"After mocking Trump for promoting hydroxychloroquine, journalists acknowledge it might treat coronavirus"
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Navy relieves captain who raised alarm about coronavirus outbreak on aircraft carrier (https://www.nbcnews.com/news/military/navy-expected-relieve-captain-who-raised-alarm-about-covid-19-n1175351)
NBC?
Crozier raised the alarm this week, sending a strongly worded letter to Navy leadership that detailed his concerns about the spread of the virus on the ship. The letter leaked to the media and generated a series of headlines.
Speaking at a news conference Thursday evening, Acting Navy Secretary Thomas Modly said Crozier was removed from his post because he sent the letter over "non-secure unclassified email" to a "broad array of people" rather than up the chain of command.
The navy has stated he broke the chain of command, as I said. People are demoted for less serious infractions when breaking the chain of command.
The US Navy is probably the most traditional of all the branches. Captains go down with their ship. You don't embarrass your commander or the navy by sending out emails to 20-30 people to cover your ass and make it seem like others weren't doing their job. He should have made a private phone call to his commander or written just him to ask for help and given them an opportunity to help fix the problem or he should have fixed it himself. As a Captain, one grade below an Admiral, and commander of one of America's largest fighting ships with 5000 men and officers, you expect more. The Secretary lost confidence in his ability to command such a large vessel and relieved him.
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No one is quarantined. People can go out for shopping or excersise.
In Canada, if you returned from foreign soil, you were quaranteened...no shopping, no friends, no going out your door. And guess what, no gun fights as a result...
By what law could the US force it’s returning Citizen to be be quarantined without their permission?
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By what law could the US force it’s returning Citizen to be be quarantined without their permission?
If there is no such law, they should make one. Quarantine them in some shelter or at home.
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It would amaze you how much people would fall in line if they would get the straight goods and repeatably getting the straight goods. It's when they get lied to over and over that things go wrong.
What a steaming pile. We still can’t get people to “fall in line”. They get the strait goods every day at the press conference. Every day. Nothing has been withheld from the American people. Unless you think Fauci and company are lying.
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The fact is, he took actions, some drastic actions, which you are insisting he did not.
France was hit before we were, so they were forced to take actions prior to us. Would I have liked Trump to do so earlier, maybe. Do I think the country would have listened earlier, no. But that is not the point. He did take some very serious actions and has continued to evolve as more data has come in.
On top of that, we have a federal form of government, and Trump can not legally shut down the country. Only governors can do that. Holding him responsible for actions of the governor's shows a complete lack of knowledge on USA civics.
There is no clear data supporting the theory that the US was hit later than France.
Only the measures to test patients started later on a large scale. The incredibly fast pace of increase is simply because the epidemic was already there.
So the very fact that you think the US was hit later is the result of the late reaction by your President who has done everything he could to minimize the reality of the crisis.
Japan was hit way before France but the numbers are super low because they never tested anyone.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Everyone is pissed. The reality is though that most are doing what they are told and it is under control. There are even joke groups on Facebook like Bin Isolation Outing. Check it out.
Australia - 25M people, 4900 cases, 21 deaths, 269 new cases today, 348 new cases yesterday.
Maybe something closer to you
Canada - 37M people, 9005 cases, 105 deaths, 1300 new cases today, 1400 new cases yesterday
USA - 300M people, 187,000 cases, 3846 deaths, 24,100 new cases today, 22,600 new cases yesterday.
Work it out yourselves, if you can.
Yea, the USA is the number one travel destination in the world. Last stats I read in Jan, Feb, Mar. over 3 million people traveled to the US, of those 3/4 of Million from China. Why don’t you compare those stats with Oz or Canada.
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If there is no such law, they should make one. Quarantine them in some shelter or at home.
I think it's happening naturally. Have you been outside? There're few people on the roads or on the streets except when they have to work or go shopping. The governments of each state shut down various venues like malls, playgrounds, theaters, etc. So you can't congregate there and subsequently have natural quarantine. There will probably be a bounce in the birth rate in 9 months. I don't know how much more you can do short of martial law? People do have to go places to get food and other supplies and handle their jobs otherwise there won't be any food for anyone.
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No. I spoke about reaction.
My exact words were: "the point isn't the prepardness - although there is a lot to say on this - but they way he kept denying the scientific facts. Every day matters here and your attempts to paint everything in a fuzzy light is not intellectually honest"
I wonder if you realize the extend to which you have integrated and made your own the conversational tactics of Trump industry... which is basically about stopping to converse. Continue to unleash a stream of stuff whose only coherence is that it fits a predefined story line. Completely ignoring secondary things such as facts and opinions, however logical and sensible they may be.
Cheers,
Bernard
But, sadly for you, once again you missed it. Trump denied nothing. He had his science experts present their fact every day. He still does. You are lost in your hatred, which is a really sad thing. What’s worse you decided to blame Joe and others for the virus deaths, which is beyond the pale.
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There is no clear data supporting the theory that the US was hit later than France.
Only the measures to test patients started later on a large scale. The incredibly fast pace of increase is simply because the epidemic was already there.
So the very fact that you think the US was hit later is the result of the late reaction by your President who has done everything he could to minimize the reality of the crisis.
Japan was hit way before France but the numbers are super low because they never tested anyone.
Cheers,
Bernard
I'm not clear why we're fighting about numbers at this point so early in the game. Who knows what's going to happen especially if we get a second wave. Does anyone believe Chinese numbers? Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if they started this to hurt America and move China up to #1. They might even have an antidote.
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By what law could the US force it’s returning Citizen to be be quarantined without their permission?
I thought they quarantined those Americans they let off the Grand Princess cruise ship at an army base for 14 days. Maybe they all volunteered.
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Yea, the USA is the number one travel destination in the world. Last stats I read in Jan, Feb, Mar. over 3 million people traveled to the US, of those 3/4 of Million from China. Why don’t you compare those stats with Oz or Canada.
NYC had 60 million visitors last year, up from 50 million.
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And so is every other business. Even AOC suggested that renters go to their landlords and do this. Add to that, that the relief bill specifically states that no businesses that have ownership connections to USA politicians are eligible for relief, which was specifically aimed at Trump. This would make even more the case that his properties would need to do this.
I read or heard yesterday Trump is losing a million a day.
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What the hell are you talking about, what self contradiction?
Here you go,
Captain Brett Crozier, the ship’s commanding officer, wrote that the carrier lacked enough quarantine and isolation facilities and warned the current strategy would slow but fail to eradicate the highly contagious respiratory virus. In the letter dated Monday, he called for “decisive action” and removing over 4,000 sailors from the ship and isolating them. Along with the ship’s crew, naval aviators and others serve aboard the Roosevelt.
Crozier raised the alarm this week, sending a strongly worded letter to Navy leadership that detailed his concerns about the spread of the virus on the ship. The letter leaked to the media and generated a series of headlines.
Speaking at a news conference Thursday evening, Acting Navy Secretary Thomas Modly said Crozier was removed from his post because he sent the letter over "non-secure unclassified email" to a "broad array of people" rather than up the chain of command.
Modly said Crozier was not removed because of any evidence suggesting he leaked the memo to the press, but rather for allowing "the complexity of his challenge with the Covid breakout on the ship to overwhelm his ability to act professionally when acting professionally was what was needed the most at the time."
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Your picky comment is typical from those who will find everything he does as wrong. What confidence and hope would a president inspire if he was hiding in his basement like Biden?
Showing the public something totally opposite of what you are telling them sends yet another mixed message. Please, please people stay 2 meters apart from each other as he stands shoulder to shoulder at the podium. What message is that sending?
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Yea, the USA is the number one travel destination in the world. Last stats I read in Jan, Feb, Mar. over 3 million people traveled to the US, of those 3/4 of Million from China. Why don’t you compare those stats with Oz or Canada.
Half those Chinese stopped at B&H on 34th Street and 9th Avenue on Manhattan's west side exposing half of us photographers. :o
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Something about a barn door is rattling around in my mind.
You lost me here.
Perhaps it's a farmhouse (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBoI4n4mV4U) thing?
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Something about a barn door is rattling around in my mind.
Now the actin he's taking is setting up his sheep to think he's a genius if 100,000 people around them die because of his great actions he's taken. He claims his actions rats an A+...what utter nonsense.
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Showing the public something totally opposite of what you are telling them sends yet another mixed message. Please, please people stay 2 meters apart from each other as he stands shoulder to shoulder at the podium. What message is that sending?
Strength and courage.
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I thought they quarantined those Americans they let off the Grand Princess cruise ship at an army base for 14 days. Maybe they all volunteered.
I’m sure they did volunteer. There is very little authority to deprive a person of their freedom in this situation. That pesky constitution.
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https://www.foxnews.com/politics/after-mocking-trump-promoting-hydroxychloroquine-media-acknowleges-might-treat-coronavirus
"After mocking Trump for promoting hydroxychloroquine, journalists acknowledge it might treat coronavirus"
I've seen discussions about really not enough data out there since 98% of infected people recover anyway so have the few tests that took the drug recovered from the drug...or would they have recovered anyway. Needs a lot more testing to be sure.
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By what law could the US force it’s returning Citizen to be be quarantined without their permission?
The law of common sense that comes from the leadership of your country. Canada has no such law, but people understand the importance because they were told about the consequences of going out and being infected. It all starts at the top.
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There is no clear data supporting the theory that the US was hit later than France.
Only the measures to test patients started later on a large scale. The incredibly fast pace of increase is simply because the epidemic was already there.
So the very fact that you think the US was hit later is the result of the late reaction by your President who has done everything he could to minimize the reality of the crisis.
Japan was hit way before France but the numbers are super low because they never tested anyone.
Cheers,
Bernard
I would say that is more the fault of the media. They, like every single news source, downplayed this as well until it became obvious with Italy.
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What a steaming pile. We still can’t get people to “fall in line”. They get the strait goods every day at the press conference. Every day. Nothing has been withheld from the American people. Unless you think Fauci and company are lying.
Bullshit. Trump has mocked this virus enough before "it's nothing, we have it under control", "it will magically go away when it gets warm"...that any dribble that comes out of his mouth now is just not believable. "Sure Boommer"
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Bullshit. Trump has mocked this virus enough before "it's nothing, we have it under control", "it will magically go away when it gets warm"...that any dribble that comes out of his mouth now is just not believable. "Sure Boommer"
Roflmao! Why don’t you just own up to your failure instead of tying to shift the goalposts to try and save face.
The only mocking going on is you doing it to yourself.
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If there is no such law, they should make one. Quarantine them in some shelter or at home.
We do, but those laws are state laws and can not be implemented by the federal government.
Just like how Ferguson was looted and burned, and no local politician had the balls to call in the National Guard because it would end his career, same mentality was working here in the beginning.
Even if Trump asked in February for it, no governor would want to be the first, since politically, it would stink.
As they say, everyone want to get to heaven but no one wants to die.
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There is no clear data supporting the theory that the US was hit later than France.
Only the measures to test patients started later on a large scale. The incredibly fast pace of increase is simply because the epidemic was already there.
So the very fact that you think the US was hit later is the result of the late reaction by your President who has done everything he could to minimize the reality of the crisis.
Japan was hit way before France but the numbers are super low because they never tested anyone.
Cheers,
Bernard
This is exactly right. Testing in Washington State started at least 2 weeks after testing in neibouring British Columbia. I've seen enough medical people pleading for more testing as patients piled up.
Locking down flights from China was good. Enabling all the Americans in China to come back without any testing or quaranteen was a disaster as these people ( some infected ) were walking around the country spreading their virus into other...and the exponential spread starts.
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I would say that is more the fault of the media.
Really?
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Here you go,
It is still a chain of command thing either way you look at it. Part of acting professionally in the Navy means going up the chain of command. If you dont, you are being unprofessional by their standards. I know many navy sailors; this is how it works.
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I think it's happening naturally. Have you been outside? There're few people on the roads or on the streets except when they have to work or go shopping. The governments of each state shut down various venues like malls, playgrounds, theaters, etc. So you can't congregate there and subsequently have natural quarantine. There will probably be a bounce in the birth rate in 9 months. I don't know how much more you can do short of martial law? People do have to go places to get food and other supplies and handle their jobs otherwise there won't be any food for anyone.
The failure was weeks ago when no quaranteen was set up for people coming from abroad. Now the horse is out of the barn.
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Really?
Yes, really.
Every single news story in February over here, regardless of the source, was downplaying this. Every one. The NYTs said hysteria was spreading faster then the virus, and that we need to calm down. I believe Vox (liberal press) said it was not any worse then the flu in February.
News may have been different in the EU, but here, in February, it was pretty mute on the virus.
Even in Australia, in the beginning of March, I had a conversation with an Australian, in Australia, who thought this was nothing to worry over. At this time, things were becoming more dire in the USA, which I saw when I checked the news. I told him this and he was blown away. His words were to the effect of, "you guys have hurricanes, tornadoes, bush fires, like we do, earthquakes, and even you are going nuts over this. I told my wife, the USA is not going to become crazy too; they have more important things to worry about."
The apathy was world wide Bart.
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Strength and courage.
Stupidity is more like it. Strength and courage would show him standing 10' apart from others and showing by example what he's asking his sheep to do.
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The law of common sense that comes from the leadership of your country. Canada has no such law, but people understand the importance because they were told about the consequences of going out and being infected. It all starts at the top.
Yep, you Canadians are doing this so much better.
Justin Trudeau issues stern warning to Canadians: 'Go home and stay home' (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/23/justin-trudeau-canada-coronavirus-stay-home)
The blunt message on Monday came after images circulated online showing groups of people congregating in parks, along streets and on playing fields over the weekend.
“We’ve all seen the pictures online of people who seem to think they’re invincible,” the prime minister said. “Well, you’re not. Enough is enough.”
FYI, this was March 23rd.
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A common medicine ‘could be a COVID-19 wonder drug’ (hydroxychloroquine )
Sky News host Chris Kenny says “while there are no magic cures” for the deadly coronavirus, a common medicine used to treat malaria and rheumatoid arthritis is now “touted as a bit of a wonder drug for COVID-19”.
Mr Kenny said the drug hydroxychloroquine “has now been authorised for use on coronavirus in the US” and is being looked at in Australia too.
“It is cheap and easy to produce but is already running short, so production is ramping up”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj0GfXbEElc
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You lost me here.
Perhaps it's a farmhouse (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBoI4n4mV4U) thing?
Sorry to be obtuse. I was referring to the saying "closing the barn door after the horse has gotten out", meaning taking action too late.
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A common medicine ‘could be a COVID-19 wonder drug’ (hydroxychloroquine )
Sky News host Chris Kenny says “while there are no magic cures” for the deadly coronavirus, a common medicine used to treat malaria and rheumatoid arthritis is now “touted as a bit of a wonder drug for COVID-19”.
Mr Kenny said the drug hydroxychloroquine “has now been authorised for use on coronavirus in the US” and is being looked at in Australia too.
“It is cheap and easy to produce but is already running short, so production is ramping up”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj0GfXbEElc
And can have serious side-effects.
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The failure was weeks ago when no quaranteen was set up for people coming from abroad. Now the horse is out of the barn.
But some limits were made at the end of January when the American government stopped travelers from China. It was a major policy decision considering that not much had happened here at that point. Of course, knowing all the facts in retrospect, it's easy to be a genius. The world is full of Monday morning quarterbacks.
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Sorry to be obtuse. I was referring to the saying "closing the barn door after the horse has gotten out", meaning taking action too late.
I got you now.
FYI, I'm not a Phish fan; I despise Phish! I want that to be known. I was justing being silly.
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And can have serious side-effects.
So can Covid-19.
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And can have serious side-effects.
Nothing more serious then death.
Hey, you're going to die, but I cant give you this potential life saving drug because it may have some side effects and the FDA/media would get mad at me. Perfectly logical argument.
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But some limits were made at the end of January when the American government stopped travelers from China. It was a major policy decision considering that not much had happened here at that point. Of course, knowing all the facts in retrospect, it's easy to be a genius. The world is full of Monday morning quarterbacks.
Again Alan, that didn't apply to US citizens or permanent residents, so they were free to bring the virus back with them.
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I read or heard yesterday Trump is losing a million a day.
That's OK, he'll just do what he has done many times in the past--stiff his creditors.
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The failure was weeks ago when no quaranteen was set up for people coming from abroad. Now the horse is out of the barn.
Once again, you want to quaranteen 3 million travelers? Really?
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That's OK, he'll just do what he has done many times in the past--stiff his creditors.
Or he could just get the Federal help available to other business. Oh wait, Congress chose to punish him becuase he is Trump and denied him the same policy benefits availabe to everyone else.
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Some news for Slobodan, and others affected.
Russia sends medical aid to Serbia to fight coronavirus
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-russia-serbia/russia-sends-medical-aid-to-serbia-to-fight-coronavirus-idUSKBN21L17H
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... as he stands shoulder to shoulder at the podium. What message is that sending?
That they all tested negative already.
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Once again, you want to quaranteen 3 million travelers? Really?
Desperate times call for desperate measures.
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... really not enough data out there...
But there is always plenty of 100% scientifically confirmed data to blame Trump, right?
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Some news for Slobodan, and others affected.
Russia sends medical aid to Serbia to fight coronavirus
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-russia-serbia/russia-sends-medical-aid-to-serbia-to-fight-coronavirus-idUSKBN21L17H
Thank, you Bart, and Russia.
From my perspective, this is much more welcome than the Chinese help, however useful that one might be in medical terms. With the Chinese help come Chinese totalitarian mentality and advice. Hence the military with machine guns on the streets of Belgrade, draconian Martial law, arrests of journalists, arrest of pensioners for daring to venture out to get food. The we-love-our-pensioners government allows them to go shopping between 4am and 7am.
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Again Alan, that didn't apply to US citizens or permanent residents, so they were free to bring the virus back with them.
Frank, we keep going over the same points. Foreigners from China are not American citizens. They have no legal right to enter this country. It's easier to impose a ban on them then on American citizens who want to go home.
How would you feel if on returning from an overseas trip, the airport immigration officer said you would have to stay in detention in some makeshift prison for 14 days? Especially then, when there wasn't an declared national emergency that was even being discussed by the press who was talking about impeachment. You'd be really pissed and rightly so. If Trump did that and locked you up for 14 days, you'd be the first person complaining how he really is a dictator. Your change in attitude now about how he should act isn't credible. You'll damn him if he does and damn him if he doesn't.
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Desperate times call for desperate measures.
But we have that pesky constitution. And a rabid court system. Has the Congress statrd the process of passing any laws that would remove our constitutional freedoms? Can you imagine the howl if Trump said I'm taking over all the country because of this virus?
I'm simply being realistic here. Any action will find those who disagree and when it comes to laws or Executive orders its going to go to court.
Lets tak the situation as it concerns Sanctuary states and cities. They say screw the Feds, we are not following your laws. Don't like it, take us to court and we will tie this up for a few months or even years.
Apply that now.
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But we have that pesky constitution. And a rabid court system. Has the Congress statrd the process of passing any laws that would remove our constitutional freedoms? Can you imagine the howl if Trump said I'm taking over all the country because of this virus?
I'm simply being realistic here. Any action will find those who disagree and when it comes to laws or Executive orders its going to go to court.
Lets tak the situation as it concerns Sanctuary states and cities. They say screw the Feds, we are not following your laws. Don't like it, take us to court and we will tie this up for a few months or even years.
Apply that now.
Even on a state by state level, this would happen.
CT tried to quarantine all travels from NY and possibly deny them access. Cuomo threatened to sue CT over it. This was long past the point where it was obvious how bad this was, and you would think Cuomo would have better things to do then try and sue his neighboring state, but ...
This was of course held up by the media as true leadership.
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Even on a state by state level, this would happen.
CT tried to quarantine all travels from NY and possibly deny them access. Cuomo threatened to sue CT over it. This was long past the point where it was obvious how bad this was, and you would think Cuomo would have better things to do then try and sue his neighboring state, but ...
This was of course held up by the media as true leadership.
Well, the alternative might be to buid cages at the border and hold these people pending their court case. That would buy some (quarantine) time, or not?
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I think we should lock up posters who spread false rumors. :)
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Even on a state by state level, this would happen.
CT tried to quarantine all travels from NY and possibly deny them access. Cuomo threatened to sue CT over it. This was long past the point where it was obvious how bad this was, and you would think Cuomo would have better things to do then try and sue his neighboring state, but ...
This was of course held up by the media as true leadership.
Here is what is happening as it pertains to the DOJ. Expand this to Trump on a national level...
DOJ wants expanded powers amid crisis.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/21/doj-coronavirus-emergency-powers-140023
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Well, the alternative might be to buid cages at the border and hold these people pending their court case. That would buy some (quarantine) time, or not?
To be honest, I don't why she caved. All the courts are closed; no judge would hear the case any time soon.
Similar thing happened in PA when our governor shut down all non-essential businesses and the courts state wide. Law firms did not make the cut to remain open and one ambitious firm decided to file suit against the state. Tom Wolf, our governor, pretty said go ahead and have fun filing, no judge is going to hear this for while.
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Well, the alternative might be to buid cages at the border and hold these people pending their court case. That would buy some (quarantine) time, or not?
That sounds like a great solution for those who are breaking the law and trying to come into the country illegally.
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Here is what is happening as it pertains to the DOJ. Expand this to Trump on a national level...
DOJ wants expanded powers amid crisis.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/21/doj-coronavirus-emergency-powers-140023
I'm hesitant to give the DOJ more power to circumvent any constitutional protections. That's how people like Maduro get around laws protecting citizen's liberties to impose their will. Very bad precedent. Let's stick with constitutional laws already available. Of course, if government goes to far, the people still have the Second Amendment to take back their freedoms. But we don't want to go there if we don't have too.
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That sounds like a great solution for those who are breaking the law and trying to come into the country illegally.
So, make it illegal to willingly endanger the health of others ...
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To be honest, I don't why she caved. All the courts are closed; no judge would hear the case any time soon.
Similar thing happened in PA when our governor shut down all non-essential businesses and the courts state wide. Law firms did not make the cut to remain open and one ambitious firm decided to file suit against the state. Tom Wolf, our governor, pretty said go ahead and have fun filing, no judge is going to hear this for while.
I suspect if this goes on awhile, courts will make arrangement to use televised hearings where everyone can be protected from the virus. That would seem to be a reasonable solution so people get their day in court whether civil or criminal. I don;t believe there are any constitutional protections against televised hearings and trials.
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So, make it illegal to willingly endanger the health of others ...
Those laws are already on the books. Men with AIDS have gone to jail for willingly knowing they were infected and having unprotected sex without letting the other person know.
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Looks like someone was ahead of the curve here.
After mocking Trump for promoting hydroxychloroquine, journalists acknowledge it might treat coronavirus (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/after-mocking-trump-promoting-hydroxychloroquine-media-acknowleges-might-treat-coronavirus)
Some backtracking by the media.
Malaria Drug Helps Virus Patients Improve, in Small Study (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/01/health/hydroxychloroquine-coronavirus-malaria.html)
Do I think Trump got everything right here, of course not. Do I think anyone else, even a Democrat, would have done better, of course. The abject failure of nearly every government in the world proves that, and those that did a little better only did so out of luck from having to deal with H1N1.
But at least Trump was not dismissing ideas from the other side of the aisle just out of spite.
Wishful thinking in trying to prove Trump is something that he's not. This is a rash decision.
Could this be helpful? Yes. Is it clear? No.
The data is quite poor and has to be validated if it's good enough and for who. It does come with significant side effects and you can't just give it to everybody until you know they will benefit from it, because if they don't, more will die from the drug itself.
Some say Covid will kill you. Not that many actually will die, percentage wise, and you seem to be unaware of a basic principle in medicine: first do no harm. You don't risk killing people with a drug without clear evidence of the risk/benefit ratio. Currently I can see it only as a compassionate use for the very sick people.
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A common medicine ‘could be a COVID-19 wonder drug’ (hydroxychloroquine )
Sky News host Chris Kenny says “while there are no magic cures” for the deadly coronavirus, a common medicine used to treat malaria and rheumatoid arthritis is now “touted as a bit of a wonder drug for COVID-19”.
Mr Kenny said the drug hydroxychloroquine “has now been authorised for use on coronavirus in the US” and is being looked at in Australia too.
“It is cheap and easy to produce but is already running short, so production is ramping up”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj0GfXbEElc
See my previous post
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Yep, you Canadians are doing this so much better.
Justin Trudeau issues stern warning to Canadians: 'Go home and stay home' (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/23/justin-trudeau-canada-coronavirus-stay-home)
The blunt message on Monday came after images circulated online showing groups of people congregating in parks, along streets and on playing fields over the weekend.
“We’ve all seen the pictures online of people who seem to think they’re invincible,” the prime minister said. “Well, you’re not. Enough is enough.”
FYI, this was March 23rd.
Joe, yes there are some out there that aren't totally following the rules...but far different than the mobs at spring break, the 1000 people attending churches etc... Night and Day.
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Wishful thinking in trying to prove Trump is something that he's not. This is a rash decision.
Could this be helpful? Yes. Is it clear? No.
The data is quite poor and has to be validated if it's good enough and for who. It does come with significant side effects and you can't just give it to everybody until you know they will benefit from it, because if they don't, more will die from the drug itself.
Some say Covid will kill you. Not that many actually will die, percentage wise, and you seem to be unaware of a basic principle in medicine: first do no harm. You don't risk killing people with a drug without clear evidence of the risk/benefit ratio. Currently I can see it only as a compassionate use for the very sick people.
Which is why we let doctors make the decisions. Nowhere did I see Trump suggest we should give this everyone. But many democratic governors stripped doctors' right to prescribe this drug just out of spite/hatred of Trump.
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I suspect if this goes on awhile, courts will make arrangement to use televised hearings where everyone can be protected from the virus. That would seem to be a reasonable solution so people get their day in court whether civil or criminal. I don;t believe there are any constitutional protections against televised hearings and trials.
My son-in-law who's a lawyer and notary told me he can "sign" off on signatures on documents on the web. Contracts are signed all the time now via computer including for this forum web site and every APP you buy practically. While eye-to-eye contact is best at a trial, such times call for the best you can do. After all, timely justice is also required by the constitution. People and corporate rights could be violated as well if cases sit forever. So sometimes you have to just do the best you can under the circumstances.
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But we have that pesky constitution. And a rabid court system. Has the Congress statrd the process of passing any laws that would remove our constitutional freedoms? Can you imagine the howl if Trump said I'm taking over all the country because of this virus?
I'm simply being realistic here. Any action will find those who disagree and when it comes to laws or Executive orders its going to go to court.
Lets tak the situation as it concerns Sanctuary states and cities. They say screw the Feds, we are not following your laws. Don't like it, take us to court and we will tie this up for a few months or even years.
Apply that now.
It's a bit of a numbers game. If quarantining is not viable, perfectly understandable, it's still true that every person you can nudge, cajole, bully, shame, into staying home after returning from abroad is one less disease vector walking around. Here in Canada, the messaging to returning travellers was loud, consistent and unending. One result of that is public shaming by other people, which we heard about on media. I am sure that people don't like being lectured to, but I'm not too worried about their hurt feelings.
Was there a loud and persistent media campaign directed at returning travellers in the US? I get it that you won't get get 100% compliance, but in this game, a bunch of individual cases put together can make a real difference.
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Thank, you Bart, and Russia.
From my perspective, this is much more welcome than the Chinese help, however useful that one might be in medical terms. With the Chinese help come Chinese totalitarian mentality and advice. Hence the military with machine guns on the streets of Belgrade, draconian Martial law, arrests of journalists, arrest of pensioners for daring to venture out to get food. The we-love-our-pensioners government allows them to go shopping between 4am and 7am.
Because mother Russia will only bring flowers and vodka, courtesy of comrade Putin.
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Joe, yes there are some out there that aren't totally following the rules...but far different than the mobs at spring break, the 1000 people attending churches etc... Night and Day.
I think you are benefiting by the fact that (a) no one out of Canada cares about Canada, so your stories of breaking the stay at home order is not receiving as much attention, and (b) it's still damn too cold to party like rockstars in Canada, whereas in FL it quite nice right now. Sort of like how Sweden is doing better right now, but not because they actually took better measures, just that no one wants to travel to a country that gets dark at 2:30 in the afternoon during the winter.
This has nothing to do with Canadians being better at this.
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But some limits were made at the end of January when the American government stopped travelers from China. It was a major policy decision considering that not much had happened here at that point. Of course, knowing all the facts in retrospect, it's easy to be a genius. The world is full of Monday morning quarterbacks.
It's not even Monday morning quarterbacks...it's game time quarterbacks. All Trump needed to do is see how others were dealing with the issues back then...so we wouldn't need to be Monday morning quarterbacks. It's simple...lack of testing and no isolation in the critical early weeks was a major flaw in the US response...this happened when other countries carried out extensive testing and strict quaranteening of people arriving from foreign countries.
I still have not heard of why this strategy was taken...no test and no quaranteen.
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Joe, yes there are some out there that aren't totally following the rules...but far different than the mobs at spring break, the 1000 people attending churches etc... Night and Day.
Most people aren't doing that. The exceptions prove the rule. Where I live, few are on the streets. There's no place to go anyway. A few in the parks; people shopping for food and supplies. Those that are still working. Pointing to sexually excited college kids high on pot and alcohol, is not the norm. Well, at my age, it's not the norm even during normal times. :)
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Once again, you want to quaranteen 3 million travelers? Really?
You want to let 100,000 to 240,000 people die?
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But many democratic governors stripped doctors' right to prescribe this drug just out of spite/hatred of Trump.
Proof?
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That they all tested negative already.
Right...and they can't pick up the virus anytime after the test? Naive thinking.
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But there is always plenty of 100% scientifically confirmed data to blame Trump, right?
Slobodan, you just don't make any sense...
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Right...and they can't pick up the virus anytime after the test? Naive thinking.
+1
Although naive would not be the word that I would use.
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I think you are benefiting by the fact that (a) no one out of Canada cares about Canada, so your stories of breaking the stay at home order is not receiving as much attention, and (b) it's still damn too cold to party like rockstars in Canada, whereas in FL it quite nice right now. Sort of like how Sweden is doing better right now, but not because they actually took better measures, just that no one wants to travel to a country that gets dark at 2:30 in the afternoon during the winter.
This has nothing to do with Canadians being better at this.
This is quite funny, thanks for the laugh. So it's the weather now, cold weather stops the virus. Hey wait, I thought that April and warm weather was going to stop the virus. I'm confused.
You are being argumentative. The disease spread is a multi-factored problem, getting lost in silly details is pointless.
No Canada isn't perfect. Why are we engaging in this grammar school "my dad is bigger than your dad" discussion?
Something off the charts is happening in the US at the moment. No one is attacking you about it, people are trying to understand why. You should too.
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Proof?
Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer hit for hydroxychloroquine crackdown as debate escalates (https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/mar/29/gretchen-whitmer-michigan-governor-hydroxychloroqu/)
Nevada governor limits use of anti-malaria drugs for coronavirus patients (https://www.wsmv.com/news/nevada-governor-limits-use-of-anti-malaria-drugs-for-coronavirus/article_7f1cb2dd-32f5-517f-a3f4-0484d6831be4.html)
Not full out bans, but severe regulations on prescription.
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You want to let 100,000 to 240,000 people die?
I dont want anyone to die, but you still have not told me how you just lock up 3 million people. You seem to think its simple. Enlighten us.
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[...]Not full out bans, but severe regulations on prescription.
This may make sense (given the side-effects), but I do not know the reasoning that led to it.
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Frank, we keep going over the same points. Foreigners from China are not American citizens. They have no legal right to enter this country. It's easier to impose a ban on them then on American citizens who want to go home.
How would you feel if on returning from an overseas trip, the airport immigration officer said you would have to stay in detention in some makeshift prison for 14 days? Especially then, when there wasn't an declared national emergency that was even being discussed by the press who was talking about impeachment. You'd be really pissed and rightly so. If Trump did that and locked you up for 14 days, you'd be the first person complaining how he really is a dictator. Your change in attitude now about how he should act isn't credible. You'll damn him if he does and damn him if he doesn't.
Exactly what is happening here in Canada. Many snow birds arriving from their winter in the USA are self quaranteening for 14 days. Had two neighbours that returned in March. I helped them out by shopping for them. It's really not that hard as long as your leadership of the country is strong and delivers a consistent message to the people.
When the message is "it'll be over by Easter" the people will say the hell with quaranteening, it'll be over soon.
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It's not even Monday morning quarterbacks...it's game time quarterbacks. All Trump needed to do is see how others were dealing with the issues back then...so we wouldn't need to be Monday morning quarterbacks. It's simple...lack of testing and no isolation in the critical early weeks was a major flaw in the US response...this happened when other countries carried out extensive testing and strict quaranteening of people arriving from foreign countries.
I still have not heard of why this strategy was taken...no test and no quaranteen.
Perfect example of Monday morning quarterbacking. He took some early measures like stopping Chinese tourists. But he didn't go further because it didn't seem to warrant that at that time. When things got worse in Europe, he went further and stopped tourists from Europe. None of us can predict the future. We do the best we can on a day-by-day basis. Attacking Trump for limiting his response is just political in an election year. Now that much I can predict.
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This is quite funny, thanks for the laugh. So it's the weather now, cold weather stops the virus. Hey wait, I thought that April and warm weather was going to stop the virus. I'm confused.
You are being argumentative. The disease spread is a multi-factored problem, getting lost in silly details is pointless.
No Canada isn't perfect. Why are we engaging in this grammar school "my dad is bigger than your dad" discussion?
Something off the charts is happening in the US at the moment. No one is attacking you about it, people are trying to understand why. You should too.
You completely missed the point.
He was stating that the USA was having many more people disobeying the order then in Canada, and use spring break as an example.
This is just not the case. First, like I said no one cares enough about Canada to pay attention to it. (There is no non-stop thread on here about Canadian politics, is there?) So there is a media bias which publishes more USA examples.
Second, it does not take a rocket scientist to realize less people go out and interact when it is cold then when it is sunny and warm. Thus, stories like spring break are not going to be happening in Canada.
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So, make it illegal to willingly endanger the health of others ...
There was a lady in Canada that failed to self quaranteen when tested positive with the virus. She got fined and a jail term. Yes, it is treated as endangering others...very much like drunk driving.
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This may make sense (given the side-effects), but I do not know the reasoning that led to it.
A woman in NV drank fish bowl cleaner because it had a chemical similar in spelling to chloroquine. Her husband died and she was hospitalized.
FYI, she was a devote democrat and made several donations over the years, and had many anti-trump posts on her social platforms. I would not be surprised if this was a political stunt that went awry.
The ban was a knee-jerk reaction to this.
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I think you are benefiting by the fact that (a) no one out of Canada cares about Canada, so your stories of breaking the stay at home order is not receiving as much attention, and (b) it's still damn too cold to party like rockstars in Canada, whereas in FL it quite nice right now. Sort of like how Sweden is doing better right now, but not because they actually took better measures, just that no one wants to travel to a country that gets dark at 2:30 in the afternoon during the winter.
This has nothing to do with Canadians being better at this.
Canada and the US share a lot in common and to contrast the approach by both countries is very interesting and eye opening. Florida being warm and known to attract huge crowds of people during spring break is even more reason to lock it down before it happened. You seem to use it as an excuse...it's a huge f'up that's going to kill thousands.
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Michigan Gov. Gretchen Whitmer hit for hydroxychloroquine crackdown as debate escalates (https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/mar/29/gretchen-whitmer-michigan-governor-hydroxychloroqu/)
Nevada governor limits use of anti-malaria drugs for coronavirus patients (https://www.wsmv.com/news/nevada-governor-limits-use-of-anti-malaria-drugs-for-coronavirus/article_7f1cb2dd-32f5-517f-a3f4-0484d6831be4.html)
Not full out bans, but severe regulations on prescription.
It will be a very good habit for you to actually read the articles that you are posting.
Very brief executive summary for you:
1. Whitmer restricted mostly because of reports of physicians prescribing the drug for friends and families with no medical indication
2. Nevada restricted it only for outpatient use to limit the shortage for inpatient
In both states physicians can still prescribe it inpatient should they desire.
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Second, it does not take a rocket scientist to realize less people go out and interact when it is cold then when it is sunny and warm. Thus, stories like spring break are not going to be happening in Canada.
People party indoors too. They do it all winter long even though it gets dark early. Maybe because it gets dark early. They ski and party afterward. They play hockey in crowded arenas, don't need to wait for March break.
You are way over-reaching.
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This is quite funny, thanks for the laugh. So it's the weather now, cold weather stops the virus. Hey wait, I thought that April and warm weather was going to stop the virus. I'm confused.
You are being argumentative. The disease spread is a multi-factored problem, getting lost in silly details is pointless.
No Canada isn't perfect. Why are we engaging in this grammar school "my dad is bigger than your dad" discussion?
Something off the charts is happening in the US at the moment. No one is attacking you about it, people are trying to understand why. You should too.
Neither is America or Trump.
NYC and environs apparently have 60% of the cases in America. NYC was exposed early due to all the visitors, many from China. It also got a head start before it was known how bad it was. NYC has 25,000 people per square mile. (Well that's a rough number. I don't want to be accused of missing the xact number.) So it spreads easier than in North Dakota. A person would be wise not discuss numbers until this whole thing is over risking embarrassing changes. Frankly, they're going to change and we don't really know where this is going to wind up. A lot of people are going to have egg on their faces.
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Most people aren't doing that. The exceptions prove the rule. Where I live, few are on the streets. There's no place to go anyway. A few in the parks; people shopping for food and supplies. Those that are still working. Pointing to sexually excited college kids high on pot and alcohol, is not the norm. Well, at my age, it's not the norm even during normal times. :)
Now is good...but a month ago when hoards of Americans were returning from firing lands including China...dick all was done. That fatal mistake and the lack of testing that followed is totally on your leaders shoulders.
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I dont want anyone to die, but you still have not told me how you just lock up 3 million people. You seem to think its simple. Enlighten us.
Trump hotels!
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The odd thing is neither governor outlawed the sale of fish bowl cleaner, so after your doctor turns down your request for a prescription, you can just head over to PetsMart. I don't think either the Republican or Democrat governors are distinguishing themselves.
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I dont want anyone to die, but you still have not told me how you just lock up 3 million people. You seem to think its simple. Enlighten us.
Just look North. Consistent message from the top all the way to the local mayors and even your doctor or neighbours. Sure it won't be 100%...but I can tell you the people I know that arrived from outside of Canada have self isolated for 14 days.
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This may make sense (given the side-effects), but I do not know the reasoning that led to it.
Because Trump said the drug was a good idea, Gov Gretchen Williams, a Democrat, who might be picked by Biden for his Vice President, thought it was politically expedient to go against what Trump wants. Unfortunately, too much of this serious medical and economic disaster is creating stupid policy decisions by hungry politicians on both sides seeking or keeping power. 95% pf the people are doing what they can do personally to protect themselves because why would anyone but a Socialist trust the government?
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Perfect example of Monday morning quarterbacking. He took some early measures like stopping Chinese tourists. But he didn't go further because it didn't seem to warrant that at that time. When things got worse in Europe, he went further and stopped tourists from Europe. None of us can predict the future. We do the best we can on a day-by-day basis. Attacking Trump for limiting his response is just political in an election year. Now that much I can predict.
And why did other countries start a testing effort and isolation of incoming people? Are they smarter than Trump? Did they have better medical and scientific data? Exactly what logical reason was there no isolation attempt and very little testing for weeks? Can you lay out the logic which led to these decisions...especially when other parts of the world were moving ahead with isolation and full on testing?
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Neither is America or Trump.
NYC and environs apparently have 60% of the cases in America. NYC was exposed early due to all the visitors, many from China. It also got a head start before it was known how bad it was. NYC has 25,000 people per square mile. (Well that's a rough number. I don't want to be accused of missing the xact number.) So it spreads easier than in North Dakota. A person would be wise not discuss numbers until this whole thing is over risking embarrassing changes. Frankly, they're going to change and we don't really know where this is going to wind up. A lot of people are going to have egg on their faces.
Are you sure it was the Chinese tourists or American tourists coming from China carrying the virus?
Vancouver had the 2nd highest population density in North America and has very issues. The vast majority of deaths in metro Vancouver were in care homes...not random people in the street.
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You completely missed the point.
He was stating that the USA was having many more people disobeying the order then in Canada, and use spring break as an example.
This is just not the case. First, like I said no one cares enough about Canada to pay attention to it. (There is no non-stop thread on here about Canadian politics, is there?) So there is a media bias which publishes more USA examples.
Second, it does not take a rocket scientist to realize less people go out and interact when it is cold then when it is sunny and warm. Thus, stories like spring break are not going to be happening in Canada.
Joe: You got to get with it.
(https://siberiantimes.com/upload/information_system_52/1/9/9/item_1998/information_items_1998.jpg)
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There was a lady in Canada that failed to self quaranteen when tested positive with the virus. She got fined and a jail term. Yes, it is treated as endangering others...very much like drunk driving.
Can she elect to serve her her jail time in a Democratic US state? She would be immediately released.
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There was a lady in Canada that failed to self quaranteen when tested positive with the virus. She got fined and a jail term. Yes, it is treated as endangering others...very much like drunk driving.
Was she wearing a mask? Was she out shopping for food? The law would have to adjust for these things. Of course the president of the Philippines told his police to shoot people who aren't meeting the quarantine. Why bother arresting them and endangering anyone?
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And why did other countries start a testing effort and isolation of incoming people? Are they smarter than Trump? Did they have better medical and scientific data? Exactly what logical reason was there no isolation attempt and very little testing for weeks? Can you lay out the logic which led to these decisions...especially when other parts of the world were moving ahead with isolation and full on testing?
The CDC botched the tests in February. They did not work. Apparently Kushner wasn't overseeing them.
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Because Trump said the drug was a good idea, Gov Gretchen Williams, a Democrat, who might be picked by Biden for his Vice President, thought it was politically expedient to go against what Trump wants. Unfortunately, too much of this serious medical and economic disaster is creating stupid policy decisions by hungry politicians on both sides seeking or keeping power. 95% pf the people are doing what they can do personally to protect themselves because why would anyone but a Socialist trust the government?
I think William described this behavior better than I've seen anywhere: Pavlovian. Somebody says Trump, you guys jump. Doesn't matter what is said.
Read the articles that Joe posted and my summary. Whitmer's restrictions had nothing to do with Trump, but with the reports that way too many physicians were inappropriately prescribing the drugs to friends and families.
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It will be a very good habit for you to actually read the articles that you are posting.
Very brief executive summary for you:
1. Whitmer restricted mostly because of reports of physicians prescribing the drug for friends and families with no medical indication
2. Nevada restricted it only for outpatient use to limit the shortage for inpatient
In both states physicians can still prescribe it inpatient should they desire.
They still limited it, though, for all medical professionals, not just the bad actors.
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Was she wearing a mask? Was she out shopping for food? The law would have to adjust for these things. Of course the president of the Philippines told his police to shoot people who aren't meeting the quarantine. Why bother arresting them and endangering anyone?
What people are asked to do is stay in the house for 14 days...no shopping. There are tons of services that can deliver food to your door.
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The CDC botched the tests in February. They did not work. Apparently Kushner wasn't overseeing them.
There are multiple tests out there now, still in inadequate supply, but also with another issue: sensitivity. This means how many times it detects a tests when it is present. I hear some reports, at least for some used in Michigan, of 70% only which is quite bad. That means 3 out 10 people who have it can test negative.
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They still limited it, though, for all medical professionals, not just the bad actors.
It's limited for inpatient use only. Which makes sense, there is a limited supply, and if you think it works you want to give it to those who are sicker, in the hospital. That's where you can also much better monitor for side effects.
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Now is good...but a month ago when hoards of Americans were returning from firing lands including China...dick all was done. That fatal mistake and the lack of testing that followed is totally on your leaders shoulders.
Why are you so angry at "our leader". What's it your business? What's your politics? What's your nationality? What's your name? Why are you hiding here in plain sight?
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Your picky comment is typical from those who will find everything he does as wrong. What confidence and hope would a president inspire if he was hiding in his basement like Biden?
Come on now, there's quite a difference between setting a good example by practising safe social distancing and hiding in a basement.
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Why are you so angry at "our leader". What's it your business? What's your politics? What's your nationality? What's your name? Why are you hiding here in plain sight?
Psst... it is a conspiracy.
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People party indoors too. They do it all winter long even though it gets dark early. Maybe because it gets dark early. They ski and party afterward. They play hockey in crowded arenas, don't need to wait for March break.
You are way over-reaching.
No, I'm not. Not as many people can party in most interiors as on a beach. Plus, you can easily storm a beach and throw a party.
What are rowdy hockey fans going to do with the season cancelled. Break into a locked venue, strip down to just bath suits and party like it is 1999?
Plus, show me the Canadian story that got nearly as much attention as the spring break story.
Like I said, it is a narrative that we in the USA are not taking this as serious as you guys up north, but it is just a narrative due to more media attention, not a reality.
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The odd thing is neither governor outlawed the sale of fish bowl cleaner, so after your doctor turns down your request for a prescription, you can just head over to PetsMart. I don't think either the Republican or Democrat governors are distinguishing themselves.
My wife figured that out and picked up spray cleanser for pets at the pet store when we couldn't find antibiotic cleanser any elsewhere. Works just as good as "human" spray like Lysol disinfectant.
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No, I'm not. Not as many people can party in most interiors as on a beach. Plus, you can easily storm a beach and throw a party.
What are rowdy hockey fans going to do with the season cancelled. Break into a locked venue, strip down to just bath suits and party like it is 1999?
Plus, show me the Canadian story that got nearly as much attention as the spring break story.
Let I said, it is a narrative that we in the USA are not taking this as serious as you guys up north, but it is just a narrative, not reality.
I would argue that indoor transmission rate will be significantly higher than outdoor.
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Just look North. Consistent message from the top all the way to the local mayors and even your doctor or neighbours. Sure it won't be 100%...but I can tell you the people I know that arrived from outside of Canada have self isolated for 14 days.
The government has told people to self quarantine if they were in NYC during the outbreak and travelled elsewhere particularly FLorida. I was one of them living in NJ. So that had been done. Geniuses don't only live in Canada.
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And why did other countries start a testing effort and isolation of incoming people? Are they smarter than Trump? Did they have better medical and scientific data? Exactly what logical reason was there no isolation attempt and very little testing for weeks? Can you lay out the logic which led to these decisions...especially when other parts of the world were moving ahead with isolation and full on testing?
Questioned and answered.
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Are you sure it was the Chinese tourists or American tourists coming from China carrying the virus?
Vancouver had the 2nd highest population density in North America and has very issues. The vast majority of deaths in metro Vancouver were in care homes...not random people in the street.
Asked and answered.
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Insofar as the captain, he broke the chain of command and went directly to the press. He deserved to get fired.
The US Navy is probably the most traditional of all the branches. Captains go down with their ship. You don't embarrass your commander or the navy by sending out emails to 20-30 people to cover your ass and make it seem like others weren't doing their job. He should have made a private phone call to his commander or written just him to ask for help and given them an opportunity to help fix the problem or he should have fixed it himself. As a Captain, one grade below an Admiral, and commander of one of America's largest fighting ships with 5000 men and officers, you expect more. The Secretary lost confidence in his ability to command such a large vessel and relieved him.
Well Joe you and Alan Klein , should go on Twitter and do a search hahtag #leader, #USSTheodoreRoosevelt , #CaptainCrozierAmeriocanHero
you'll see a multitude of tweets and video clips of the crew, en masse, on deck , shouting " Capt Crozier , Capt. Crozier" clapping and cheering the Captain as he leaves his ship.
I can't link but you'll find hundreds,thousands of tweets and retweets, type:
>It’s so rare to find a commanding officer that is so well received and respected.....I hope @USNavy takes a real look at this #USSTheodoreRoosevelt
>The Commander of the #USSTheodoreRoosevelt threw himself on a live grenade for the lives of the sailors who serve under his command. So instead of receiving the Medal of Honor, he is being fired. Go #Navy?
>One of America's best. This is disgraceful treatment and I am ashamed for our country. And Eddie Gallagher keeps his SEAL Trident pin.
As to Alan Klein's riposte above - deserves a different hashtag : #ShameOnYou
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You completely missed the point.
He was stating that the USA was having many more people disobeying the order then in Canada, and use spring break as an example.
This is just not the case. First, like I said no one cares enough about Canada to pay attention to it. (There is no non-stop thread on here about Canadian politics, is there?) So there is a media bias which publishes more USA examples.
Second, it does not take a rocket scientist to realize less people go out and interact when it is cold then when it is sunny and warm. Thus, stories like spring break are not going to be happening in Canada.
No; a lot of people cares about Canada; there are many there of UK descent and thousands there faithfully buy - or are sent - Scottish calendars of glens, mountains and northern beaches. Had I gone down that route I would probably have never retired: cupidity might well have driven me to an early grave. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more Scots fans of Canada than there are French ones!
But politically, the reason people are bogged down in US politics is Trump: he is such an unexpected, unmitigated misfit for the rôle of president that the world can't help itself watching out for the next disaster in the slow-mo train-wreck show. Added interest is that unlike in the movies, what this guy does affects all countries, not because he is a savant, a wunderkind of any sort even, but because he happens to be at the wheel of the world's biggest war and economic machine that is hurtling along, effectively out of control.
That many of its passengers are telling one another that everything is cool, that the best thing to do is go make another cheese, go shoot another camper van and, most certainly, invest in an extension to the armoury only adds drama to the background scenery. Some external observers even wonder if they are actually watching a very expensive and long-running commercial for a new Amazon or Netflix show.
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I think William described this behavior better than I've seen anywhere: Pavlovian. Somebody says Trump, you guys jump. Doesn't matter what is said.
Read the articles that Joe posted and my summary. Whitmer's restrictions had nothing to do with Trump, but with the reports that way too many physicians were inappropriately prescribing the drugs to friends and families.
You're being naive. She did it for political reasons. Trump was for it so she had to be against it. His opponents don't want to say anything nice about anything he does. It's too bad this virus did not hit after the election. A lot of the politics wouldn't have occurred that creating problems.
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Why are you so angry at "our leader". What's it your business? What's your politics? What's your nationality? What's your name? Why are you hiding here in plain sight?
Alan I care because of the people that will die. Nationality has nothing to do with caring for people all around this world. I see the screwups by the leadership in the USA causing a bunch of unnecessary death and hardships. I see a bunch of self centred countries and leaders all over the world that turn their back on the millions of Afrcans that die of starvation every year. My nationality has nothing to do with my concern for humanity.
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Psst... it is a conspiracy.
Damn it...you've blown my Biden cover.
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What people are asked to do is stay in the house for 14 days...no shopping. There are tons of services that can deliver food to your door.
Where do you live? How can we judge where your head and knowledge is without it. How about just a city? A country? Maybe a hemisphere?
No one is delivering where I live. I've been trying to get a delivery window for food and groceries and staples from Amazon for days. I finally found an Italian grocery that took my order on the phone and prepared it for curbside pickup but no deliveries to your home.
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The government has told people to self quarantine if they were in NYC during the outbreak and travelled elsewhere particularly FLorida. I was one of them living in NJ. So that had been done. Geniuses don't only live in Canada.
We hear it everyday from all level of leadership. We have not once heard "it'll be over by Easter" or "it'll just go away like magic" from our leaders. Big difference on how one leads. Even today I see Trump standing side by side, even touching the others at the podium. What message is that sending?
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Questioned and answered.
Please elaborate here. Let's hear the answer from your own mouth.
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There are multiple tests out there now, still in inadequate supply, but also with another issue: sensitivity. This means how many times it detects a tests when it is present. I hear some reports, at least for some used in Michigan, of 70% only which is quite bad. That means 3 out 10 people who have it can test negative.
Of bigger concern is how effective with vaccines be if they invent them? The regular flu vaccine is only 40% effective this year (that's another rough number folks. :) ) So even if we get a vaccine, if it's 40% effective, we'll be right back in the soup again next year. Not sure my marriage can survive another quarantine. :)
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Asked and answered.
Alan I understand what your doing...cornered and giving smart ass replies. Bottom line people coming into the US from foreign lands whether tourists or American citizens were not tested nor quaranteened.
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Come on now, there's quite a difference between setting a good example by practising safe social distancing and hiding in a basement.
You guys just don't want him to look good. You'd prefer he look like sleepy Joe hiding in his basement mumbling his words and incoherent. You even want him to shut down the news conferences because you know it's helping him in his poll numbers which is good for re-election.
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Where do you live? How can we judge where your head and knowledge is without it. How about just a city? A country? Maybe a hemisphere?
No one is delivering where I live. I've been trying to get a delivery window for food and groceries and staples from Amazon for days. I finally found an Italian grocery that took my order on the phone and prepared it for curbside pickup but no deliveries to your home.
I live in Canada and there are delivery services that are crawling over themselves to help out. Many have organized as a grass roots move to help the seniors stay at home...but it has spread to anyone needing or wanting help getting groceries or medical supplies.
This has been praised a number of times by our Prime Minister during his daily address to the nation. It's inspiring and infectious.
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Alan I care because of the people that will die. Nationality has nothing to do with caring for people all around this world. I see the screwups by the leadership in the USA causing a bunch of unnecessary death and hardships. I see a bunch of self centred countries and leaders all over the world that turn their back on the millions of Afrcans that die of starvation every year. My nationality has nothing to do with my concern for humanity.
You nationality does count. Maybe you're Chinese and trying to make America look bad. Also, just how well is your country handling this? It's easy to point fingers at America. Just how great is your country? Hiding who you are, it's easy to criticize and not have to take responsibility for your country's screwups. Be a man. Own up to who you are.
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We hear it everyday from all level of leadership. We have not once heard "it'll be over by Easter" or "it'll just go away like magic" from our leaders. Big difference on how one leads. Even today I see Trump standing side by side, even touching the others at the podium. What message is that sending?
Asked and answered.
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Alan I understand what your doing...cornered and giving smart ass replies. Bottom line people coming into the US from foreign lands whether tourists or American citizens were not tested nor quaranteened.
Asked and answered twice.
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I live in Canada and there are delivery services that are crawling over themselves to help out. Many have organized as a grass roots move to help the seniors stay at home...but it has spread to anyone needing or wanting help getting groceries or medical supplies.
This has been praised a number of times by our Prime Minister during his daily address to the nation. It's inspiring and infectious.
Thanks for letting us know you're Canadian. How about adding that detail to your profile so everyone can know that going forward? It would be really helpful. A first name would also help so we can refer to it rather than hogloff. It's not very personal and would help us be more friendly to each other. Look how nice people are to me because I give my name. :).
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You're being naive. She did it for political reasons. Trump was for it so she had to be against it. His opponents don't want to say anything nice about anything he does. It's too bad this virus did not hit after the election. A lot of the politics wouldn't have occurred that creating problems.
You are being obtuse here. The drug is accessible for physicians to prescribe in the hospital setting, just harder to call in prescriptions to the outpatient pharmacies. It's not that difficult really. Not everything revolves around Trump outside of your world.
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Of bigger concern is how effective with vaccines be if they invent them? The regular flu vaccine is only 40% effective this year (that's another rough number folks. :) ) So even if we get a vaccine, if it's 40% effective, we'll be right back in the soup again next year. Not sure my marriage can survive another quarantine. :)
Different things.
So far there is no data that this will change its structure in a similar fashion to the flu virus. And that 40% is a little deceiving, even if you get it, if you had other flu vaccines in the past, you tend to have a milder form.
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Thanks for letting us know you're Canadian. How about adding that detail to your profile so everyone can know that going forward? It would be really helpful.
Otherwise, how will Alan know which set of prejudices to apply.
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On that note I should probably remind everyone I'm an immigrant. :)
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Guys,
I got up to make coffee and you are already 2-3 pages ahead. Please! I can't keep up. I am going to have ask Josh to institute circuit breakers like on the Wall Street, so that when number of posts in a single forum reaches 15 per second, the posting is automatically halted for 15 min.
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Just look North. Consistent message from the top all the way to the local mayors and even your doctor or neighbours. Sure it won't be 100%...but I can tell you the people I know that arrived from outside of Canada have self isolated for 14 days.
What a cop out. Looking north is useless. Did you have 3 million entries? I asked you how do we confine 3 million people. Its a pretty simple question and all you did is sidestep. Wanna try again? I'm sure may of those 3 million did self confine, but not at the port of entry which is the only place it make sense. But them again there is that pesky constituion.
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No; a lot of people cares about Canada; there are many there of UK descent and thousands there faithfully buy - or are sent - Scottish calendars of glens, mountains and northern beaches. Had I gone down that route I would probably have never retired: cupidity might well have driven me to an early grave. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more Scots fans of Canada than there are French ones!
But politically, the reason people are bogged down in US politics is Trump: he is such an unexpected, unmitigated misfit for the rôle of president that the world can't help itself watching out for the next disaster in the slow-mo train-wreck show. Added interest is that unlike in the movies, what this guy does affects all countries, not because he is a savant, a wunderkind of any sort even, but because he happens to be at the wheel of the world's biggest war and economic machine that is hurtling along, effectively out of control.
That many of its passengers are telling one another that everything is cool, that the best thing to do is go make another cheese, go shoot another camper van and, most certainly, invest in an extension to the armoury only adds drama to the background scenery. Some external observers even wonder if they are actually watching a very expensive and long-running commercial for a new Amazon or Netflix show.
G--D--- this Texan American loves you, Rob :)
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And why did other countries start a testing effort and isolation of incoming people? Are they smarter than Trump? Did they have better medical and scientific data? Exactly what logical reason was there no isolation attempt and very little testing for weeks? Can you lay out the logic which led to these decisions...especially when other parts of the world were moving ahead with isolation and full on testing?
Do you actually read the news? Do you understand the cultural and size differences betweens countries. Do you even have a clue as to how US law and the constitution dictates how things happen? Sheesh.
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On that note I should probably remind everyone I'm an immigrant. :)
Brave man :)
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G--D--- this Texan American loves you, Rob :)
Ever since Brexit, Rob has sold his soul to commies. No wonder you are welcoming him into your arms.
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What a cop out. Looking north is useless. Did you have 3 million entries? I asked you how do we confine 3 million people. Its a pretty simple question and all you did is sidestep. Wanna try again? I'm sure may of those 3 million did self confine, but not at the port of entry which is the only place it make sense. But them again there is that pesky constituion.
Canadian are quaranteening in their homes. They go from airport to home without stopping. These orders are given to every individual that comes into Canada. I don't know what percentage of people are doing this...but I believe it is very high as this information is given out through every media every day. Everyone I know that came into Canada from being away has self quaranteened in their homes.
So it's hard to do...just give up and party instead? What exactly was the alternative method employed in the US to all those Americans coming home?
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We hear it everyday from all level of leadership. We have not once heard "it'll be over by Easter" or "it'll just go away like magic" from our leaders. Big difference on how one leads. Even today I see Trump standing side by side, even touching the others at the podium. What message is that sending?
Good grief. Are words like "I hope", "Maybe", "it would be great", "its an asperation" missing from your reading capacity?
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Do you actually read the news? Do you understand the cultural and size differences betweens countries. Do you even have a clue as to how US law and the constitution dictates how things happen? Sheesh.
I don't see the laws being any different here in Canada. Are Americans so hung up on their constitutional rights that they would not self isolate to possibly save other people's lives. Are your damn rights so important to you that you'd risk infecting...and leading others to death? Where's the humanity in you?
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Ever since Brexit, Rob has sold his soul to commies. No wonder you are welcoming him into your arms.
Unpossible. We don't allow commies or commielovers here in the great state of Texas.
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You nationality does count. Maybe you're Chinese and trying to make America look bad.
Yeh those commies are hiding under every stone. Better look over your shoulder when you walk down the street.
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Canadian are quaranteening in their homes. They go from airport to home without stopping. These orders are given to every individual that comes into Canada. I don't know what percentage of people are doing this...but I believe it is very high as this information is given out through every media every day. Everyone I know that came into Canada from being away has self quaranteened in their homes.
So it's hard to do...just give up and party instead? What exactly was the alternative method employed in the US to all those Americans coming home?
Is your understanding of how international travel works so limited that you think that everyone coming into the US from overseas lands directly at the airport in their hometown? That many make one or more other flights, train rides, cab rides or even Ubers to get home? How many more people will they be in contact with? Or want about those who are not residents but were visitors? This is nothing about having a party but rather the massive logistics of dealing with 3 million people.
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Is your understanding of how international travel works so limited that you think that everyone coming into the US from overseas lands directly at the airport in their hometown? That many make one or more other flights, train rides, cab rides or even Ubers to get home? How many more people will they be in contact with? Or want about those who are not residents but were visitors? This is nothing about having a party but rather the massive logistics of dealing with 3 million people.
Fine, but then let's not pretend we sealed off the border from the virus.
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I don't see the laws being any different here in Canada. Are Americans so hung up on their constitutional rights that they would not self isolate to possibly save other people's lives. Are your damn rights so important to you that you'd risk infecting...and leading others to death? Where's the humanity in you?
Massive swaths of Americans are self isolating. I've been in for three weeks now. I've been an advocate for this for at least that long or longer. I'm not happy with those who have decided it does not matter to them.
And yes our damn rights are very important to us. We are not subjects.
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Good grief. Are words like "I hope", "Maybe", "it would be great", "its an asperation" missing from your reading capacity?
Are those leadership words. I hope we did the right thing. It would be great if this virus just magically goes away. Is that what would inspire you to go the extra mile and self isolate.
Charge!!! Let's get behind our leader...he thinks this virus will be gone by Easter.
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Fine, but then let's not pretend we sealed off the border from the virus.
No one said we did. We stopped some travel early but even that was bitched and moaned about. We still had a duty to bring our citizens home as well.
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Is your understanding of how international travel works so limited that you think that everyone coming into the US from overseas lands directly at the airport in their hometown? That many make one or more other flights, train rides, cab rides or even Ubers to get home? How many more people will they be in contact with? Or want about those who are not residents but were visitors? This is nothing about having a party but rather the massive logistics of dealing with 3 million people.
Yes it's a tough issue...but is the solution to take the easy route and do nothing?
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Are those leadership words. I hope we did the right thing. It would be great if this virus just magically goes away. Is that what would inspire you to go the extra mile and self isolate.
Charge!!! Let's get behind our leader...he thinks this virus will be gone by Easter.
Reading is still beyond your ken as is the concept of giving people some hope along with the medicine.
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Are those leadership words. I hope we did the right thing. It would be great if this virus just magically goes away. Is that what would inspire you to go the extra mile and self isolate.
Charge!!! Let's get behind our leader...he thinks this virus will be gone by Easter.
You need to chill. Our best men are on it. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/04/03/jared-kushner-coronavirus-briefing/) - what could possibly go wrong? I mean, it's not like he put his kid on the board of a foreign oil company or something. That would be scandalous.
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Yes it's a tough issue...but is the solution to take the easy route and do nothing?
Are you being serious? You think nothing was done?
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You need to chill. Our best men are on it. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/04/03/jared-kushner-coronavirus-briefing/) - what could possibly go wrong? I mean, it's not like he put his kid on the board of a foreign oil company or something. That would be scandalous.
You forget this in your post James: [sarcasm] [/sarcasm] 8)
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No; a lot of people cares about Canada; there are many there of UK descent and thousands there faithfully buy - or are sent - Scottish calendars of glens, mountains and northern beaches. Had I gone down that route I would probably have never retired: cupidity might well have driven me to an early grave. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more Scots fans of Canada than there are French ones!
But politically, the reason people are bogged down in US politics is Trump: he is such an unexpected, unmitigated misfit for the rôle of president that the world can't help itself watching out for the next disaster in the slow-mo train-wreck show. Added interest is that unlike in the movies, what this guy does affects all countries, not because he is a savant, a wunderkind of any sort even, but because he happens to be at the wheel of the world's biggest war and economic machine that is hurtling along, effectively out of control.
That many of its passengers are telling one another that everything is cool, that the best thing to do is go make another cheese, go shoot another camper van and, most certainly, invest in an extension to the armoury only adds drama to the background scenery. Some external observers even wonder if they are actually watching a very expensive and long-running commercial for a new Amazon or Netflix show.
Oh Please Rob.
No one cares about Canadian politics but Canadians, no one cares about German politics but Germans, no one cares about Japanese politics but Japanese, and, aside from Brexit, no one care about British politics but Brits.
Yet, for some reason, everyone and their mother has an acute interest in USA politics, and dont tell it is because of Trump. It isn't! This has been going on long before Trump was in office. I can remember being questioned repeatably when I was in my early 20s and traveling about Bush. Even in this thread, there has been keen interest in our 2nd amendment and gun rights, which has nothing to do with Trump.
It is a fallacy that it is due to Trump. People just like to pile on USA politics for some reason.
I have to give you credit for that last paragraph though. ;D I'll be starting a Camembert this weekend, albeit by myself in quarantine. ;)
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You forget this in your post James: [sarcasm] [/sarcasm] 8)
Appreciate the edit ;)
It gives me some hope that even my friends on the right think this is a WTF move. Probably there are some lefties out there among my fellow travelers that would be fine with Trump falling flat on his face in dealing with this, but I for one am not one of them, and find that abhorrent. I hope dealing with the crisis is his (Trump's) greatest success (I mean, I guess hope Kushner comes through too, but...), and this action (letting Kushner into the middle of this) is really discouraging.
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Appreciate the edit ;)
It gives me some hope that even my friends on the right think this is a WTF move. Probably there are some lefties out there among my fellow travelers that would be fine with Trump falling flat on his face in dealing with this, but I for one am not one of them, and find that abhorrent. I hope this dealing with they crisis is his (Trump's) greatest success (I mean, I guess hope Kushner comes through too, but...), and this action (letting Kushner into the middle of this) is really discouraging.
I'm not going to lie, I was not really enthused after watching him talk. He looked like a high school boy asking a girl out for the first time.
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I'm watching video on CNN of civil servants (I guess) picking up bodies on the streets in Ecuador.
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Kuchner said that the federal governments stockpile of equipment is "Our" stockpile, not the states. :-)
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Alan, I've been going back through the pages I missed since last night, and I understand your concern about inflation and economic damage. You have yet to notice, apparently, that because of the President's courageous actions, there will apparently be a lot fewer people on Social Security in the near future, which really should help hold down those costs.
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Kuchner said that the federal governments stockpile of equipment is "Our" stockpile, not the states. :-)
Either this is not an accurate quote, or he did not fully explain himself, or you did not bother to fully listen. Although given his lack of public speaking abilities, I would not be surprised if he did not fully address the issue.
The stock pile was partially depleted in 2009 and never restocked up to it's previous quantity. Thus, when this all began, we did not have as much as we would have and were working with short supplies. We therefore sent out as much as we could afford to while still keeping enough stock for federal government and military usage.
It is not that we did not send out supplies. It is just that we sent out as much as we could before we had to stop to ensure federal nurses and other medical personal in the federal government can have access to the supplies as well.
After all, federal medical professionals also need this PPE as well.
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You are being obtuse here. The drug is accessible for physicians to prescribe in the hospital setting, just harder to call in prescriptions to the outpatient pharmacies. It's not that difficult really. Not everything revolves around Trump outside of your world.
Biden mentioned he's thinking about Gov Whitmer for his VP. To believe that she came out threatening doctors who prescribe the use of this drug immediately after Trump's comment is lacking credulity. She has subsequently reversed herself eliminating the threat after taking a lot of heat for her orders.
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Maybe I can help (I still don't why I'm persisting with you Joe, I live in hope!): there are two reasons that I can think of.
1. Whether we like it or not, if the USA sneezes, we all catch a cold - inappropriate as that analogy might be at this time! Your economy affects lots of other countries, which is why it's also important to us that you don't have an arsehole in the White House.
2. You guys make it so easy for us. You keep telling the rest of us how great you are. You claim to have the best of everything, so when we see that you vote the world's greatest conman into office we all sit back and say, "this should be interesting"... And the last four years have been as Rob described earlier, "a slow-motion train wreck". So it stands to reason that when your behaviour is less than the "perfect" you claim, it gives us cause to chuckle.
The problem now, of course, is that this is no longer a laughing matter and we really are rooting for you guys to get over this with the minimum amount of heartache.
It just seems that you are making this as difficult as possible for yourselves.
But hey, you came late to World War 2 too, and look how you ended up!
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Oh Please Rob.
No one cares about Canadian politics but Canadians, no one cares about German politics but Germans, no one cares about Japanese politics but Japanese, and, aside from Brexit, no one care about British politics but Brits.
Yet, for some reason, everyone and their mother has an acute interest in USA politics, and dont tell it is because of Trump. It isn't! This has been going on long before Trump was in office. I can remember being questioned repeatably when I was in my early 20s and traveling about Bush. Even in this thread, there has been keen interest in our 2nd amendment and gun rights, which has nothing to do with Trump.
It is a fallacy that it is due to Trump. People just like to pile on USA politics for some reason.
I have to give you credit for that last paragraph though. ;D I'll be starting a Camembert this weekend, albeit by myself in quarantine. ;)
Lot of stuff I like about the US, perhaps because I lived there for a short period. But the politics? Jeez it’s never ending, repetitive and boring as hell. I try to dredge up some interest now and again because it sure seems to fascinate a lot of people and it horribly over reported in world news. The truth is I couldn’t really care less. (As some of us say)
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Different things.
So far there is no data that this will change its structure in a similar fashion to the flu virus. And that 40% is a little deceiving, even if you get it, if you had other flu vaccines in the past, you tend to have a milder form.
But no one's had vaccines for Corid-19. So next year, even if everyone get the vaccine, it will be for the first time If it's 40% effective as the flu vaccine, then 60% of the people are open to getting infected. No one knows what's going to happen. A lot of this is luck and up to God. We're just not that smart.
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In the past 24 hours, the USA has stopped a 3M shipment of masks to France and one to Canada. I saw a quote (sorry don't know where now, couldn't find it again) that Trump said that in this war there are no allies. I hope that last statement was a mis-reporting because there are many Canadian medical personnel crossing the border to lend a hand.
Is there an extreme shortage of those masks? Is there some concern that 3M cannot meet all of its orders?
I have a problem with globalization wrt strategic products. For example, I thought Canada should bite the bullet and build refineries in Alberta and not ship crude to the gulf coast even if it was inefficient (the question is always inefficient for who?) and just eat the higher cost because it was worth paying. I hope that Ontario manufacturers can re-gear quickly and start making our own equipment if we can't get it elsewhere. Presumably, they have already been working on the problem.
Worldwide markets and just-in-time inventory works just fine until something gums up the works. At that point, it is good to have back-up plans.
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Otherwise, how will Alan know which set of prejudices to apply.
My full name, location and picture is out there. Some people are cowards and hide because they're ashamed of their comments.
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On that note I should probably remind everyone I'm an immigrant. :)
Welcome to America.
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My full name, location and picture is out there. Some people are cowards and hide because they're ashamed of their comments.
Maybe some people have good reason to remain anonymous. There's no a priori reason I should know who you are or where you live.
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I dont know about you guys, but trust in all of these medical experts is really starting to decrease with me. There are just too many different results for it to make any sense.
People are reviewing the models and it is apparent no one has any clue to what is going to happen regardless of what we do. Many experts are even doubting their own models and Dr. Fauci said in an recent interview that you cant trust models anyway. The ranges of possibilities are so large and significant between models, even between ones using the same inputs.
On top of that, no one is talking about what the trade off should between damage due to the virus and economic damage. Nor is anyone talking about what will happen past August.
By Easter people are going to start loosing it if we cant get concrete answers.
Even with total lock down or a mild version, no one seems to be able to figure out the difference in death count. Like if a partial lock down, like in Germany, will result in 2.5M vs. 150K for a total lockdown, I can see the argument for the lockdown. But what if it is 200K vs. 150K; I think most would accept the 50K died to avoid a total economic collapse.
I'm doing business stuff this week and next, but after Easter I am scheduling projects. I already have a couple clients asking about it.
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Maybe some people have good reason to remain anonymous. There's no a priori reason I should know who you are or where you live.
It use to be in the forum rules (not sure if it still is) that you need to use your real name.
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Biden mentioned he's thinking about Gov Whitmer for his VP. To believe that she came out threatening doctors who prescribe the use of this drug immediately after Trump's comment is lacking credulity. She has subsequently reversed herself eliminating the threat after taking a lot of heat for her orders.
You still don't get it, do you. I don't think you even read what I said, I'm not even going to bother with you.
I can prescribe that drug to whoever I want in the hospital, no restrictions from the governor. There are restrictions from the hospital because we don't have that many doses so I need an infectious disease consult if I want to prescribe it.
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Are those leadership words. I hope we did the right thing. It would be great if this virus just magically goes away. Is that what would inspire you to go the extra mile and self isolate.
Charge!!! Let's get behind our leader...he thinks this virus will be gone by Easter.
I didn't stop isolating at home with my wife because he said it would be great if this would be gone by Easter. Most people understood what he meant. It's like saying I hope God would help us find our way through this darkness. No one stopped working because a preacher said it. But you deliberately ignored the asperational aspect of it for political reasons like CNN and MSNBC.
For reference, this is from a speech President Franklin D. Roosevelt gave before Congress after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor kicking off WWII for America. It's not contradictory to exclaim grave issues while trying to provide support and hope in dark times. That's what presidents and other leaders are supposed to do. Rather than attacking them, people should be thankful for using their authority to express faith and support encouragement. Doing less is just petty politics and unworthy of true patriots.
"...Hostilities exist. There is no blinking at the fact that our people, our territory, and our interests are in grave danger.
With confidence in our armed forces with the unbounding determination of our people we will gain the inevitable triumph so help us God...."
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I didn't stop isolating at home with my wife because he said it would be great if this would be gone by Easter
Why would you stop isolating? It's not Easter yet. You've got ten more days to go.
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Alan, I've been going back through the pages I missed since last night, and I understand your concern about inflation and economic damage. You have yet to notice, apparently, that because of the President's courageous actions, there will apparently be a lot fewer people on Social Security in the near future, which really should help hold down those costs.
I hope I'm not one of those being eliminated. :)
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In talking about the effects on the economy and job losses, Dr. Fauci said "I know it's difficult, but we're having a lot of suffering, a lot of death, this is inconvenient from an economic and personal standpoint, but we just have to do it." ???
Sorry, I cant take any of this seriously anymore. It is more then just inconvenient. When southern Italy starts rioting, it is more then just inconvenient.
Italy Risks Losing Grip in South With Fear of Looting, Riots (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-30/italy-risks-losing-grip-in-south-with-fears-of-looting-and-riots)
When this brought on economic stand still is starting talks about breaking up the EU, it is more then just inconvenient.
European leaders warn coronavirus could lead to the breakup of their union (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/european-leaders-warn-coronavirus-could-lead-to-the-breakup-of-their-union/ar-BB125QZz)
I want to see economists in addition to medical experts working on this.
Now there is talks in the USA that some business relief checks wont get out until August. Seems like there is more issues with paper checks that direct deposit, but many poor people dont have bank accounts and rely on paper checks. Some entire neighborhoods in North Philly dont have a majority of house holds without a bank account.
Some in U.S. may not get stimulus checks until August (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/some-in-u-s-may-not-get-stimulus-checks-until-august)
You really think people are just to sit by and watch their lives get destroyed because the government forced a shut using models that not even the experts can agree on without any money coming. They will go back to work and open up their stores, and thumb their nose at city hall.
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Maybe some people have good reason to remain anonymous. There's no a priori reason I should know who you are or where you live.
When you criticize a country, people should know if you're a citizen or not. It says something about your comment. It also defines where you're coming from. If you're Canadian and say Trump was nuts with Nafta, it has a different meaning and has a different reason if you're Canadian or American. People look at American policy decisions differently if your a citizen of America or not. It might be good for us but not for you.
It also helps other answers photo questions asked. Someone complains about the availability of film. Knowing he lives in America, or ENgland, helps define his point. Someone ask where they can find a pro lab. Again, knowing where they live answers an important question. You don;t to include your street address or GPS coordinates. Just a little info. It goes a long way.
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You still don't get it, do you. I don't think you even read what I said, I'm not even going to bother with you.
I can prescribe that drug to whoever I want in the hospital, no restrictions from the governor. There are restrictions from the hospital because we don't have that many doses so I need an infectious disease consult if I want to prescribe it.
You don't get it either. The point is she came out against it because Trump was for it. Nothing else mattered. The reason was an excuse. The anti-Trumpers reject anything and everything Trump says. It's a knee jerk reaction. Even if what he says makes sense, they're blinded by hatred and will find a reason to reject it.
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In talking about the effects on the economy and job losses, Dr. Fauci said "I know it's difficult, but we're having a lot of suffering, a lot of death, this is inconvenient from an economic and personal standpoint, but we just have to do it." ???
Sorry, I cant take any of this seriously anymore. It is more then just inconvenient. When southern Italy starts rioting, it is more then just inconvenient.
The problem is that you are taking Dr. Fauci literally. Everyone knows he means devastating.
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Why would you stop isolating? It's not Easter yet. You've got ten more days to go.
Your side complained that his statement would get people to stop isolating and stop protecting themselves. Only people who hate Trump take what he said incorrectly. You do that all the time because you hate the guy. It blinds you to all reality. Independents who don;t have an ax to grind listen to what he says in a human manner. They don;t cherry pick and ascribe weird meaning to what he says. Journalists who are in the business of listening to words know what he means. But they're also prejudiced against him and report nonsense.
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I dont know about you guys, but trust in all of these medical experts is really starting to decrease with me. There are just too many different results for it to make any sense.
People are reviewing the models and it is apparent no one has any clue to what is going to happen regardless of what we do. Many experts are even doubting their own models and Dr. Fauci said in an recent interview that you cant trust models anyway. The ranges of possibilities are so large and significant between models, even between ones using the same inputs.
Until one of the talking heads on the White House task force says that we will begin a massive testing of everyone for SARS-CoV-2 antibodies you can disregard what comes out everyone's mouth. The blunt fact is that there are lots of people cooped up in their homes who had mild viral infections and didn't know it. Most of the studies I've read (I spend five hours every AM reading pre-prints of papers across a number of areas) assume at minimum 10 people are infected for every case reported. Blood tests have been created and how many do you think have received FDA emergency use approval? Wait for it.........................................................................ONE!!!! This such a colossal f*ck up on top of the botched genetic test that lost us a month. Nobel Laureate economist Paul Romer says we should be testing every American at two week intervals, that's 14M tests a day. Maybe we don't need that many from a statistical point of view but the quicker we find people who have been infected and are no longer symptomatic, GET THEM BACK TO WORK. This is not political in any way shape or form, it's just epidemiology 101 - find out who is sick and who has recovered!!!
The only reason for the current lock down is to keep hospitals from getting over burdened and not able to deal with anything other than SARS-CoV-2 patients.
Policy makers have no imagination.
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In talking about the effects on the economy and job losses, Dr. Fauci said "I know it's difficult, but we're having a lot of suffering, a lot of death, this is inconvenient from an economic and personal standpoint, but we just have to do it." ???
Sorry, I cant take any of this seriously anymore. It is more then just inconvenient. When southern Italy starts rioting, it is more then just inconvenient.
Italy Risks Losing Grip in South With Fear of Looting, Riots (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-30/italy-risks-losing-grip-in-south-with-fears-of-looting-and-riots)
When this brought on economic stand still is starting talks about breaking up the EU, it is more then just inconvenient.
European leaders warn coronavirus could lead to the breakup of their union (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/european-leaders-warn-coronavirus-could-lead-to-the-breakup-of-their-union/ar-BB125QZz)
I want to see economists in addition to medical experts working on this.
Now there is talks in the USA that some business relief checks wont get out until August. Seems like there is more issues with paper checks that direct deposit, but many poor people dont have bank accounts and rely on paper checks. Some entire neighborhoods in North Philly dont have a majority of house holds with a bank account.
Some in U.S. may not get stimulus checks until August (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/some-in-u-s-may-not-get-stimulus-checks-until-august)
You really think people are just to sit by and watch their lives get destroyed because the government forced a shut using models that not even the experts can agree on without any money coming. They will go back to work and open up their stores, and thumb their nose at city hall.
Only Italians care about Italy.
I've been bringing this point up in these forums for years. Creating a political entity called the EU won't work. When things get tough, people only care about their own country. It's called patriotism. Sure, while things are flush, and everyone's making money, it's easy to be charitable to other people's. But when you've got family dying and you can't afford a funeral, things can get out of hand. We went through this with the Greece crisis. But tha wa small potatoes compared to the economic problem spanning the globe. Will Germany bail out all these countries again? Or will they follow GB down the Brexit road? I really feel bad for everyone. This is a disaster for all.
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The problem is that you are taking Dr. Fauci literally. Everyone knows he means devastating.
He doesn't want to upset Trump. :)
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Until one of the talking heads on the White House task force says that we will begin a massive testing of everyone for SARS-CoV-2 antibodies you can disregard what comes out everyone's mouth. The blunt fact is that there are lots of people cooped up in their homes who had mild viral infections and didn't know it. Most of the studies I've read (I spend five hours every AM reading pre-prints of papers across a number of areas) assume at minimum 10 people are infected for every case reported. Blood tests have been created and how many do you think have received FDA emergency use approval? Wait for it.........................................................................ONE!!!! This such a colossal f*ck up on top of the botched genetic test that lost us a month. Nobel Laureate economist Paul Romer says we should be testing every American at two week intervals, that's 14M tests a day. Maybe we don't need that many from a statistical point of view but the quicker we find people who have been infected and are no longer symptomatic, GET THEM BACK TO WORK. This is not political in any way shape or form, it's just epidemiology 101 - find out who is sick and who has recovered!!!
The only reason for the current lock down is to keep hospitals from getting over burdened and not able to deal with anything other than SARS-CoV-2 patients.
Policy makers have no imagination.
Cant say I disagree with any of this. Why in God's name is the FDA still dragging their knuckles on this. They need to be completely dismantled and rebuilt after this. Their bureaucratic bull shit has screwed this country over up and down.
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Until one of the talking heads on the White House task force says that we will begin a massive testing of everyone for SARS-CoV-2 antibodies you can disregard what comes out everyone's mouth. The blunt fact is that there are lots of people cooped up in their homes who had mild viral infections and didn't know it. Most of the studies I've read (I spend five hours every AM reading pre-prints of papers across a number of areas) assume at minimum 10 people are infected for every case reported. Blood tests have been created and how many do you think have received FDA emergency use approval? Wait for it.........................................................................ONE!!!! This such a colossal f*ck up on top of the botched genetic test that lost us a month. Nobel Laureate economist Paul Romer says we should be testing every American at two week intervals, that's 14M tests a day. Maybe we don't need that many from a statistical point of view but the quicker we find people who have been infected and are no longer symptomatic, GET THEM BACK TO WORK. This is not political in any way shape or form, it's just epidemiology 101 - find out who is sick and who has recovered!!!
The only reason for the current lock down is to keep hospitals from getting over burdened and not able to deal with anything other than SARS-CoV-2 patients.
Policy makers have no imagination.
If the actual cases are ten times those reported like you say, then the death rate is ten times less deadly. That's good news.
I'm still not clear how extra testing will help. There's no way we can test the whole public. Even in countries like So Korea, they only tested 350,000 by Mar 25th out of 50 million people. That's only 1 out of 145 people or 7/10ths of 1%. 0.0069. You can't really find the cases with that kind of testing. And what happens after you test if someone gets it then? How often are you going to test? I could see some testing to determine which geographic areas are the worse, and have been exposed, and extrapolate the quantity in an area using sampling. That would make sense. Then you could assign resources more effectively.
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Appreciate the edit ;)
It gives me some hope that even my friends on the right think this is a WTF move. Probably there are some lefties out there among my fellow travelers that would be fine with Trump falling flat on his face in dealing with this, but I for one am not one of them, and find that abhorrent. I hope dealing with the crisis is his (Trump's) greatest success (I mean, I guess hope Kushner comes through too, but...), and this action (letting Kushner into the middle of this) is really discouraging.
Why is it discouraging? Sounds like Kushner is looking to find ways to end run the slow and crappy systems of the Federal government. No one can say the Feds are a speedy bunch. He's working on getting the private sector in the game. Its not like he's a newcomer to the Trump admin.
Here is a Politico article on the subject. They are generally a cennter publication. Its a bit more nuanced that an opinion article that starts with a title, Trumps ignorant son-in law....
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/01/jared-kushner-coronavirus-response-160553
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Ever since Brexit, Rob has sold his soul to commies. No wonder you are welcoming him into your arms.
Slobodan, the only realistic explanation for your mind storms has to be that your water has been laced with hallucinogens.
My absolutely favourite politician ever was a certain Margaret Thatcher, a true blue who took on massive unions with the same verve and conviction as she did invading Argentinians armed with French missiles. She represented what I believe defines the real spirit of Conservatism. Sadly, she was subjected to the "et tu, Brut" treatment from her close fellow politicos. It might be said that the flower of British Conservatism started to wilt not a hundred years from then.
Today, there is no longer a Conservative Party in Britain. Instead, we have a charade modelled on the one running across the Atlantic. It can't even get its head around doing that without fucking up despite having its rôle models on-screen every blasted newscast that comes on the tv.
I'm afraid that politically, I have been totally disenfranchised. There is nobody left that strikes me as even remotely plausible.
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In other news, I am reading that the theory this virus originated from the Wuhan lab is getting additional credit.
Apparently, the suspect wet market this was thought to have originated from did not sell bats, and one of the first patients did not have any contact with bats. However, for years that lab has been collecting bat corona viruses to study. It is very plausible that someone accidentally got infected with one of these viruses and started spreading it in the community.
One of the main sticking points with this theory originally was that the virus did not appear to be engineered. However, in the scenario above, this critique would not matter since it was an accidental exposure of a naturally occurring virus.
It could have been a total, yet accidental, screw up with lab protocol that brought us this.
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Kuchner said that the federal governments stockpile of equipment is "Our" stockpile, not the states. :-)
Well it actually is. The Fed needs to be able have backup as well, and given where we are today they need to dole whats left out carefully and where it can be best used.
The States have their own power and should have had a stockpile as well.
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Your side complained that his statement would get people to stop isolating and stop protecting themselves. Only people who hate Trump take what he said incorrectly. You do that all the time because you hate the guy. It blinds you to all reality. Independents who don;t have an ax to grind listen to what he says in a human manner. They don;t cherry pick and ascribe weird meaning to what he says. Journalists who are in the business of listening to words know what he means. But they're also prejudiced against him and report nonsense.
It's not a matter of taking Trump literally...it's a matter of taking Trump seriously.
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Ad space is getting interesting, right Rob? :D
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Your side complained that his statement would get people to stop isolating and stop protecting themselves. Only people who hate Trump take what he said incorrectly. You do that all the time because you hate the guy. It blinds you to all reality. Independents who don;t have an ax to grind listen to what he says in a human manner. They don;t cherry pick and ascribe weird meaning to what he says. Journalists who are in the business of listening to words know what he means. But they're also prejudiced against him and report nonsense.
I never complained that "his statement would get people to stop isolating and stop protecting themselves." Again, you are confusing me with someone else. That's twice today. If I said anything, it was that this idiot thinks this is going to be all over and everyone will be back at work in two weeks, either that or else he is just lying to us again.
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Lot of stuff I like about the US, perhaps because I lived there for a short period. But the politics? Jeez it’s never ending, repetitive and boring as hell. I try to dredge up some interest now and again because it sure seems to fascinate a lot of people and it horribly over reported in world news. The truth is I couldn’t really care less. (As some of us say)
Politics in the US is a cluster F... Not doubt about it. There is an election every two years so the process is endless. And every year it seems to start sooner. Factor in the lack of term limits other than for the President and thoe in power amass too much power.
Give me a 4 year term for the house with 3 terms, 6 years for the Senate and 2 terms and 8 years for the President with 1 term.
It might cut down on some of the BS and endless campaigns
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Why is it discouraging? Sounds like Kushner is looking to find ways to end run the slow and crappy systems of the Federal government. No one can say the Feds are a speedy bunch. He's working on getting the private sector in the game. Its not like he's a newcomer to the Trump admin.
Here is a Politico article on the subject. They are generally a cennter publication. Its a bit more nuanced that an opinion article that starts with a title, Trumps ignorant son-in law....
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/01/jared-kushner-coronavirus-response-160553
Trump believes government is made up of a bunch of dummies. After all, they hurt American industry by making bad trade deals and allowing China to out maneuver America in business. So it's natural for him to ask private industry to help out.
The big problem I have with Trump is that he believes in debt. That's not unusual for real estate magnates who use debit to buy and build properties. So he thinks nothing of the US borrowing and spending trillions. And unlike private industry where you have to get money from others, the US government can also print trillions. That's been going on for years. Now the republican politicians, who use to have some idea of conservative economics, have joined the Democrats in a free for all grab bag of spending on everything by printing more American dollars. It's going to bankrupt everyone's savings, retirement funds, and make salaries worthless. China will win the war without firing a shot.
Of course, Trump plans to take the printing press with him to Mar-a-lago when he leaves office. He knows a good thing when he see it.
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That many of its passengers are telling one another that everything is cool, that the best thing to do is go make another cheese, go shoot another camper van and, most certainly, invest in an extension to the armoury only adds drama to the background scenery. Some external observers even wonder if they are actually watching a very expensive and long-running commercial for a new Amazon or Netflix show.
Just to be clear, I've not worked shooting for 3 weeks now an have no plans of going out to shoot again until the end of April at the earilest.
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I never complained that "his statement would get people to stop isolating and stop protecting themselves." Again, you are confusing me with someone else. That's twice today.
I didn't say you said it. I said "your side" said it.
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Cant say I disagree with any of this. Why in God's name is the FDA still dragging their knuckles on this. They need to be completely dismantled and rebuilt after this. Their bureaucratic bull shit has screwed this country over up and down.
It is not the FDA. The tests need to be validated and that's straight forward. The companies don't want to do this. You can distribute an unvalidated test but have to send along a disclaimer. We don't want tests going out that are unreliable. A lot of the tests that are registered with the FDA come from Asian suppliers and they don't have a working knowledge of FDA regs. They would need a US partner
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Why is it discouraging? Sounds like Kushner is looking to find ways to end run the slow and crappy systems of the Federal government. No one can say the Feds are a speedy bunch. He's working on getting the private sector in the game. Its not like he's a newcomer to the Trump admin.
Here is a Politico article on the subject. They are generally a cennter publication. Its a bit more nuanced that an opinion article that starts with a title, Trumps ignorant son-in law....
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/01/jared-kushner-coronavirus-response-160553
It's discouraging because I've seen nothing in the last three years that indicates that Trump has any skill in making government actually work, or picking competent people, and because Jared Kushner has no outstanding qualifications beyond being related to the President.
This is possibly one of the most important processes we'll see in my lifetime, and who's running it? Not an expert in logistics, or procurement, or supply chain management, but his kid's husband, because.. why?
Listen - I'm a small-time CEO. When I was still doing agency work, I ran a $10,000,000 company with a staff of about 40. Chump change, really. But you know what? I didn't fire people for disagreeing with me, and I didn't look to my friends (or God help me, my family) to run my critical functions. In fact, if I was hiring someone for a critical high-level position, I damn well searched hard for someone *better* than I was at that function, and if they told me I was wrong about something, I listened.
Compare and contrast to what you've seen in the last 3 years and tell me why I should have any faith in the choices being made?
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It's discouraging because I've seen nothing in the last three years that indicates that Trump has any skill in making government actually work, or picking competent people, and because Jared Kushner has no outstanding qualifications beyond being related to the President.
This is possibly one of the most important processes we'll see in my lifetime, and who's running it? Not an expert in logistics, or procurement, or supply chain management, but his kid's husband, because.. why?
Listen - I'm a small-time CEO. When I was still doing agency work, I ran a $10,000,000 company with a staff of about 40. Chump change, really. But you know what? I didn't fire people for disagreeing with me, and I didn't look to my friends (or God help me, my family) to run my critical functions. In fact, if I was hiring someone for a critical high-level position, I damn well searched hard for someone *better* than I was at that function, and if they told me I was wrong about something, I listened. Compare and contrast to what you've seen in the last 3 years and tell me why I should have any faith in the choices being made?
Is he failing? Does he have good people working with him, including military experts? If he is screwing up, thats one thing but it appears he is doing a pretty good job. Is he an expert in supply chain management or has he got the best guy he can find doing? I would submit that Kushner is doing exactly what you have done, finding someone better than him for a specfic task, listening, and managing the process. Question, why would you have a problem with friends or family if they were up to the task and you trusted them? I would venture thats exactly WHY Trump has chosed both...more for trust than any other reason, and the outsiders have given him good reason not to trust them.
So your managment style differs from Trumps. Ok, no problem. Despite what some my think, the last three years look pretty good from my seat...we will see in short order about the virus thing.
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Is he failing?
At what? Look at his employee turnover. Does he suck at hiring, or is he atrocious at retention? Maybe both, but one has to be true.
Does he have good people working with him, including military experts?
Fewer every week, seemingly. Replaced by toadies that he "trusts" because they soft-pedal his ego.
If he is screwing up, thats one thing but it appears he is doing a pretty good job.
Because as best I can tell, your philosophy is that breaking government equals "doing a good job" because that means it gets out of the way. That's cool and all, and there are, believe it or not, some cases where I would agree with you. That's all fine and good and fun when we shoot the bull about taxes, political correctness and the government's role in directing social policy. It's a little less fine when you need expert-level coordinated response for an honest-to-God emergency.
Does he have good people working with him, including military experts? Is he an expert in supply chain management or has he got the best guy he can find doing? I would submit that Kushner is doing exactly what you have done, finding someone better than him for a specfic task, listening, and managing the process. Question, why would you have a problem with friends or family if they were up to the task and you trusted them? I would venture thats exactly WHY Trump has chosed both...more for trust than any other reason, and the outsiders have given him good reason not to trust them.
This is the great unknown, right? As I said, to this point, whatever our disagreement may be on policy, it's undeniable that Trump has either done a poor job recruiting talent, or a poor job retaining talent because of his ego. Both are signs of a poor manager. This has been the crux of my issues with Trump from the start. I mean, sure, his social policy is retrograde, reactionary, and plays to the lowest common denominator, but fundamentally he is just a piss-poor manager of people and bad at looking at divergent points view. He thinks he already knows everything. And that's a bad guy to have in charge of the world's biggest organization, where literal lives depend on his competency. Does it even matter? Almost everyone that leaves the administration claims that he doesn't listen, doesn't learn, and has no interest in information that disputes his preconceived notions, and those that don't say that are still angling for, or part of, the entourage. I'll be pleasantly surprised if he rises above that now.
So your managment style differs from Trumps. Ok, no problem. Despite what some my think, the last three years look pretty good from my seat...we will see in short order about the virus thing.
Good luck to us.
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But, sadly for you, once again you missed it. Trump denied nothing. He had his science experts present their fact every day. He still does. You are lost in your hatred, which is a really sad thing. What’s worse you decided to blame Joe and others for the virus deaths, which is beyond the pale.
Craig,
You are a smart person, why the urge to deny the obvious?
On the one hand you guys are telling us we should ignore Trump’s words and watch his actions? When we do this we see a president who did everything he could to delay actions to save his economy. With the obvious result of many un’eeded additional casualties and more impact to the economy. Those 2+ weeks were disastrous for lack of a better word.
If we ignore your advice and hear what Trump is saying then we listen to a president who didn’t deny the pandemic... but denied way too long (at least 2 weeks) it was a real threat and one whose resolution should take immediate precedence over the economy. Which should have meant immediate wide spread confinement.
Let me guess why you keep denying the obvious... because you know I am right but admitting to this would also be admitting that you were possibly wrong also on all the other things we hzve disagreed on these past months?
That’s not how I look at it.
I see a WW pandemic with complex interactions, I see one global planet and when the leader of a large and powerful country messes up lile Trump has on this corona pandemic, it impacts everyone. You, Joe, me,... so I don’t feel hatred for Trump, I am judging his performance on the biggest crisis he has had to face and it’s abysmal both in absolute terms and when compared to other leaders of large countries. Abysmal in his actions and words.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Only people who hate Trump take what he said incorrectly.
(https://media.giphy.com/media/3og0IUd5D9Y77EXtRK/giphy.gif)
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By Easter people are going to start loosing it if we cant get concrete answers.
Even with total lock down or a mild version, no one seems to be able to figure out the difference in death count. Like if a partial lock down, like in Germany, will result in 2.5M vs. 150K for a total lockdown, I can see the argument for the lockdown. But what if it is 200K vs. 150K; I think most would accept the 50K died to avoid a total economic collapse.
I would keep it locked down a little bit longer.
I like the light road traffic and even grocery shopping. My local food store is clean, quiet, well stocked, hardly any people, pleasure to shop.
However, the skating rink and swimming pool are closed and there are no dances.
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I dont know about you guys, but trust in all of these medical experts is really starting to decrease with me. There are just too many different results for it to make any sense.
People are reviewing the models and it is apparent no one has any clue to what is going to happen regardless of what we do. Many experts are even doubting their own models and Dr. Fauci said in an recent interview that you cant trust models anyway. The ranges of possibilities are so large and significant between models, even between ones using the same inputs.
On top of that, no one is talking about what the trade off should between damage due to the virus and economic damage.
ckdown.
Comon, give credit when credit is due. One person spoke at length about this trade of... and that’s Trump.
And for the longest time he decided that not risking impacting the economy was more important than taking strong measures to prevent the spread of the virus.
Well there is always going to be a major impact. The more you wait the bigger. With both many casualties and deeper wounds to the US and world economy.
As far as the complexity of modeling... everyone seems at least to agree that limiting interactions btwn people is the only known way to reduce the spread. Which requires strong and clear words and actions pronounced and taken timely. Both obvious issues with the way Trump managed the crisis.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I would keep it locked down a little bit longer.
I like the light road traffic and even grocery shopping. My local food store is clean, quiet, well stocked, hardly any people, pleasure to shop.
However, the skating rink and swimming pool are closed and there are no dances.
Always look on the bright side of life.
I’m fine a lot more free time to enjoy a cigar and a glass of wine.
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Distrust of science is at an all time high under this admin but it still remains the way to find the best answer. The results are not always correct but it's a process designed so that when better information comes along (and is supported by evidence) then that replaces the previous best answer. If there was a better way, that would be science.
So I trust the (relevant) scientists who generally are in agreement on what the best course of action is (which does evolve as new information comes along). There may be outliers as there is with other fields like climate science but the vast majority agree distancing is the way to not kill off a lot of our population. The data backs this up.
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Distrust of science is at an all time high under this admin but it still remains the way to find the best answer. The results are not always correct but it's a process designed so that when better information comes along (and is supported by evidence) then that replaces the previous best answer. If there was a better way, that would be science.
So I trust the (relevant) scientists who generally are in agreement on what the best course of action is (which does evolve as new information comes along). There may be outliers as there is with other fields like climate science but the vast majority agree distancing is the way to not kill off a lot of our population. The data backs this up.
As of now we know two things. People will die and more if we go out. That’s it. We don’t know how many more, whether it’s 50k or 5M more. This will work for the time being, but in a month when real economic damages happens it won’t. They better come up with answers real fast or no one will give a damn.
I know people right now looking at going out of business.
With recent reports from Iceland and Vo, Italy showing over half of those with it don’t have symptoms, there will be a point when most care about their families’ well being over the unlucky few who are vulnerable, and that will happen fast. Look at Southern Italy.
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At what? Look at his employee turnover. Does he suck at hiring, or is he atrocious at retention? Maybe both, but one has to be true.
Fewer every week, seemingly. Replaced by toadies that he "trusts" because they soft-pedal his ego.
Because as best I can tell, your philosophy is that breaking government equals "doing a good job" because that means it gets out of the way. That's cool and all, and there are, believe it or not, some cases where I would agree with you. That's all fine and good and fun when we shoot the bull about taxes, political correctness and the government's role in directing social policy. It's a little less fine when you need expert-level coordinated response for an honest-to-God emergency.
This is the great unknown, right? As I said, to this point, whatever our disagreement may be on policy, it's undeniable that Trump has either done a poor job recruiting talent, or a poor job retaining talent because of his ego. Both are signs of a poor manager. This has been the crux of my issues with Trump from the start. I mean, sure, his social policy is retrograde, reactionary, and plays to the lowest common denominator, but fundamentally he is just a piss-poor manager of people and bad at looking at divergent points view. He thinks he already knows everything. And that's a bad guy to have in charge of the world's biggest organization, where literal lives depend on his competency. Does it even matter? Almost everyone that leaves the administration claims that he doesn't listen, doesn't learn, and has no interest in information that disputes his preconceived notions, and those that don't say that are still angling for, or part of, the entourage. I'll be pleasantly surprised if he rises above that now.
Good luck to us.
I was talking about Kushner, not Trump, which was the topic of our exchange iirc. As it relates to Kushner and trying to source things quickly and efficiently, yes , breaking the government is a superb thing. A a general rule, at least in my book, entrenched government is a failure, and it has been for years.
So, I’ll refer you to my original post asking abut Kushner.
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Craig,
You are a smart person, why the urge to deny the obvious?
On the one hand you guys are telling us we should ignore Trump’s words and watch his actions? When we do this we see a president who did everything he could to delay actions to save his economy. With the obvious result of many un’eeded additional casualties and more impact to the economy. Those 2+ weeks were disastrous for lack of a better word.
If we ignore your advice and hear what Trump is saying then we listen to a president who didn’t deny the pandemic... but denied way too long (at least 2 weeks) it was a real threat and one whose resolution should take immediate precedence over the economy. Which should have meant immediate wide spread confinement.
Let me guess why you keep denying the obvious... because you know I am right but admitting to this would also be admitting that you were possibly wrong also on all the other things we hzve disagreed on these past months?
That’s not how I look at it.
I see a WW pandemic with complex interactions, I see one global planet and when the leader of a large and powerful country messes up lile Trump has on this corona pandemic, it impacts everyone. You, Joe, me,... so I don’t feel hatred for Trump, I am judging his performance on the biggest crisis he has had to face and it’s abysmal both in absolute terms and when compared to other leaders of large countries. Abysmal in his actions and words.
Cheers,
Bernard
You really don’t pay attention do you Bernard? Trump has allowed his science staff pretty much free reign since day one to tell their story to the American people and the world. Did you somehow miss that because you were so fixated on Trump hatred?
So those so called “ lost two weeks”. Were warnings not issued about how the crisis might unfold, at Trump press conferences, and in press availability with both him, his staff and and his science guys? Did Trump try to get the CDC to fix the testing debacle during this time frame? Did the Administration issue warnings, etc to people here and abroad? The fact of the matter is his administration was working quite heard during those “ lost two weeks”.
Aside from closing the country down, which he really can’t do anyway, exactly what else do you think he missed? Let’s get real. He could not have issued a confinement order, the best he could do is suggest. In any case as we have seen, this is the choice of the individual States, and if you have a problem with those “lost two weeks”, take it up with them. The fact of the matter is that none of them closed their States because the people would have gone nuts at that point and the Governor’s knew that. Heck even after closing their states most can’t get great compliance.
Your problem Bernard is you don’t know what you think you know. You are not even close to right...again. You don’t know how our government works. You have now shown that more than once. No, I don’t “ know” you are right, because you are totally wrong.
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Aside from closing the country down, which he really can’t do anyway, exactly what else do you think he missed? Let’s get real. He could not have issued a confinement order, the best he could do is suggest.
Yes. Exactly.
It’s not “the best he could do”. It’s what he should have done at least two weeks earlier.
And this one point is of huge importance. It’s everything.
That’s what a president must do in such circumstances. And not doing it is a mistake of historical proportions.
Most leaders in Europe share the view that this crisis is the most critical since WWII.
And since you claim to know that much better the way the US works you cannot not know that the president has a huge range to options to both influence and drive what people think and what states do.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I would keep it locked down a little bit longer.
I like the light road traffic and even grocery shopping. My local food store is clean, quiet, well stocked, hardly any people, pleasure to shop.
However, the skating rink and swimming pool are closed and there are no dances.
My wife and I are practicing social distancing. We haven't spoken to one another for three days. ???
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Aside from closing the country down, which he really can’t do anyway, exactly what else do you think he missed? Let’s get real. He could not have issued a confinement order, the best he could do is suggest.
....You don’t know how our government works.
Well clearly it doesn't.
In New Zealand they locked down early and it worked well, at least for a while. The Prime Minister can do that because there are no states, so she is pretty well in charge.
Here in Australia the Prime Minister has to contend with 6 states and two main territories, so that means 8 leaders, 8 police forces, 8 Health departments etc. A juggling act but now it's coming together. Most states are locked down to some extent and many have closed borders. 16% of GDP or similar has been basically given to keep people in jobs, even if they aren't actually working.
As for incoming travellers at airports, well unless you live within 20 minutes of home you are bussed to a hotel in the city you arrive at and you stay there for 14 days in the room, checked by army and police.
I have no idea how the US will hope to control 50 states and leaders the probably over 400 law agencies, health departments and so on. A third of new cases globally are now in the US, so I hope you have plenty of body bags.
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I am not going to lie, I am finding great ironic humor in the new way this website is choosing to place ads. What do you think Bernard?
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I am not going to lie, I am finding great ironic humor in the new way this website is choosing to place ads. What do you think Bernard?
Lol
Cheers,
Bernard
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At what? Look at his employee turnover. Does he suck at hiring, or is he atrocious at retention? Maybe both, but one has to be true.
Fewer every week, seemingly. Replaced by toadies that he "trusts" because they soft-pedal his ego.
Because as best I can tell, your philosophy is that breaking government equals "doing a good job" because that means it gets out of the way. That's cool and all, and there are, believe it or not, some cases where I would agree with you. That's all fine and good and fun when we shoot the bull about taxes, political correctness and the government's role in directing social policy. It's a little less fine when you need expert-level coordinated response for an honest-to-God emergency.
This is the great unknown, right? As I said, to this point, whatever our disagreement may be on policy, it's undeniable that Trump has either done a poor job recruiting talent, or a poor job retaining talent because of his ego. Both are signs of a poor manager. This has been the crux of my issues with Trump from the start. I mean, sure, his social policy is retrograde, reactionary, and plays to the lowest common denominator, but fundamentally he is just a piss-poor manager of people and bad at looking at divergent points view. He thinks he already knows everything. And that's a bad guy to have in charge of the world's biggest organization, where literal lives depend on his competency. Does it even matter? Almost everyone that leaves the administration claims that he doesn't listen, doesn't learn, and has no interest in information that disputes his preconceived notions, and those that don't say that are still angling for, or part of, the entourage. I'll be pleasantly surprised if he rises above that now.
Good luck to us.
You talk of management style not being acceptable. To who? He's president. He reports to no one except the people. He demands loyalty and excellence. If you fail at either, you're out. No second chances. No getting a break for past performance or being nice to his kids. That's how he operates. It's his way or the highway. If they don't like it, they shouldn't take the job. If they haven't figured that out yet, than their not smart enough to work for him.
Only his enemies care who he hires and who he fires and how he runs the office. All the public cares about are results. The public sees a president every day on stage who is in command. He's sticking his neck out being up there. No one else will get the credit or the blame if he fails. He knows that. That's why he's taking charge so publicly. For the election. If he succeeds, he'll be re-elected. If he fails, he won't be. It's that simple. The rest is conversation.
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So, I’ll refer you to my original post asking abut Kushner.
Kushner is a nobody, distinguished only by his criminal, but rich, father, and the woman he married. Kushner is relevant only because his wife's daddy selected him to do an important job. And his wife's daddy has an unfortunate tendency to fire people better than him in favor of yes-men.
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Kushner is a nobody, distinguished only by his criminal, but rich, father, and the woman he married. Kushner is relevant only because his wife's daddy selected him to do an important job. And his wife's daddy has an unfortunate tendency to fire people better than him in favor of yes-men.
James why not answer my questions about Kushner? Is he failing? If he’s not and he’s doing a good job, as it appears he is, what the problem?
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Well clearly it doesn't.
In New Zealand they locked down early and it worked well, at least for a while. The Prime Minister can do that because there are no states, so she is pretty well in charge.
Here in Australia the Prime Minister has to contend with 6 states and two main territories, so that means 8 leaders, 8 police forces, 8 Health departments etc. A juggling act but now it's coming together. Most states are locked down to some extent and many have closed borders. 16% of GDP or similar has been basically given to keep people in jobs, even if they aren't actually working.
As for incoming travellers at airports, well unless you live within 20 minutes of home you are bussed to a hotel in the city you arrive at and you stay there for 14 days in the room, checked by army and police.
I have no idea how the US will hope to control 50 states and leaders the probably over 400 law agencies, health departments and so on. A third of new cases globally are now in the US, so I hope you have plenty of body bags.
That’s the point, the Federal Gov. does not control the states. And I don’t think there is a hoots chance anyone is going to make Trump king. This is what we have warts and all. We live and die with it, quite literally.
Now, again we are talking about 3 million travelers, in a country where there are limited means to confine people legally. . Those are the facts of life here. Is this that really so hard to understand?
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You don't get it either. The point is she came out against it because Trump was for it. Nothing else mattered. The reason was an excuse. The anti-Trumpers reject anything and everything Trump says. It's a knee jerk reaction. Even if what he says makes sense, they're blinded by hatred and will find a reason to reject it.
Do you have any proof?
I say you don't get because the "restrictions" are actually minimal and common sense. Not everything revolves against Trump but you seem to think otherwise. Every decision has to be political and has to be for or against Trump. It must tough to imagine enemies where they aren't, world is a little more than black or white.
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Yes. Exactly.
It’s not “the best he could do”. It’s what he should have done at least two weeks earlier.
And this one point is of huge importance. It’s everything.
That’s what a president must do in such circumstances. And not doing it is a mistake of historical proportions.
Most leaders in Europe share the view that this crisis is the most critical since WWII.
And since you claim to know that much better the way the US works you cannot not know that the president has a huge range to options to both influence and drive what people think and what states do.
Cheers,
Bernard
Are you simply not listening or is really so far beyond your ken that it’s becoming silly?
The President does not have the authority to tell every State they must issue a lockdown. Only each State can order such a thing. Trump could suggest it, like he has done with his 15 and now 30 days to stop the spread guidelines. He’s not a King Bernard and I find it highly amusing that recently you accuse him of ignoring the constitution and wanting him removed from office and how you want him to ignore the constitution. The irony is delicious.
Every Governor was in the loop. Every State was privy to the same information. They all made the choices they thought were correct. It was their call. That’s how it works here.
That’s the reality Bernard. You seem oblivious to that fact.
Now, In case this too is beyond you, it is estimated 75 to 85 million people died in WWII. As bad as this is it will be nowhere near the level of WWII .
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...
Most of the studies I've read (I spend five hours every AM reading pre-prints of papers across a number of areas) assume at minimum 10 people are infected for every case reported.
...
I'm afraid this assumption is more on the wishful thinking side. Most of this data comes from China: https://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2020/03/24/science.abb3221
Until you do a massive sampling of population for antibodies coupled with a symptom questionnaire I will have doubts about its accuracy.
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I'm afraid this assumption is more on the wishful thinking side. Most of this data comes from China: https://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2020/03/24/science.abb3221
Until you do a massive sampling of population for antibodies coupled with a symptom questionnaire I will have doubts about its accuracy.
Not going to lie, Alan Goldhammer may be on the direct opposite side of the spectrum political then I, but I would take his word on medical research over many others every day of the year, especially given his credentials and experience.
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Kushner is a nobody, distinguished only by his criminal, but rich, father, and the woman he married. Kushner is relevant only because his wife's daddy selected him to do an important job. And his wife's daddy has an unfortunate tendency to fire people better than him in favor of yes-men.
Well, regardless of his lack of public speaking skills, he did help in moving the embassy to Jerusalem and WWIII did not break out like every expert predicted.
The country has moved on from the pre-2016 thinking, and much of that philosophy has been shown to be false.
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Are you simply not listening or is really so far beyond your ken that it’s becoming silly?
The President does not have the authority to tell every State they must issue a lockdown. Only each State can order such a thing. Trump could suggest it, like he has done with his 15 and now 30 days to stop the spread guidelines. He’s not a King Bernard and I find it highly amusing that recently you accuse him of ignoring the constitution and wanting him removed from office and how you want him to ignore the constitution. The irony is delicious.
Every Governor was in the loop. Every State was privy to the same information. They all made the choices they thought were correct. It was their call. That’s how it works here.
That’s the reality Bernard. You seem oblivious to that fact.
Now, In case this too is beyond you, it is estimated 75 to 85 million people died in WWII. As bad as this is it will be nowhere near the level of WWII .
You are not answering to the crystal clear point I am making.
You are focusing on what Trump cannot legally do instead of looking at what he could have done, should have done, but did way too late.
In doing so you are implicitly agreeing to me point about the total inability of Trump to act as a President. Confirming in the process his screaming shortcomings as well as the huge devaluation of the presidential function he has caused.
All that to avoid having to admit that your support to him was badly musguided and is resulting in the worsening of both the health of thousands of Americans and the economy.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Well, regardless of his lack of public speaking skills, he did help in moving the embassy to Jerusalem and WWIII did not break out like every expert predicted.
WOOHOO?
The country has moved on from the pre-2016 thinking, and much of that philosophy has been shown to be false.
LOL. It has? Trump's grade-school thinking and petty tweeting is the New World Order? WTF is wrong with you?
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You are not answering to the crystal clear point I am making.
You are focusing on what Trump cannot legally do instead of looking at what he could have done, should have done, but did way too late.
In doing so you are implicitly agreeing to me point about the total inability of Trump to act as a President. Confirming in the process his screaming shortcomings as well as the huge devaluation of the presidential function he has caused.
All that to avoid having to admit that your support to him was badly musguided and is resulting in the worsening of both the health of thousands of Americans and the economy.
Cheers,
Bernard
You must be a bit under the weather tonight Bernard, your post reeks of fantasy. Are you suffering from a fever?
Your point was crystal clear...let me referent your feverish mind...
You said
“If we ignore your advice and hear what Trump is saying then we listen to a president who didn’t deny the pandemic... but denied way too long (at least 2 weeks) it was a real threat and one whose resolution should take immediate precedence over the economy. Which should have meant immediate wide spread confinement.
Once again, if you have the capacity, Trump never denied the pandemic, his experts did not deny the pandemic and told the worldv of their findings and suggestions. Every Governor had access the the information. The law limits the Presidents actions. He did and is doing what he can. The rest belongs to the States. Welcome to the USA.
Now I know, given your possible condition, that this information might not be received by you in a coherent manner and for that You have my best wishes on a speedy recovery.
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James why not answer my questions about Kushner? Is he failing? If he’s not and he’s doing a good job, as it appears he is, what the problem?
We don't know he's doing a good job yet - time will tell. We DO know that the guy that put him charge has a history of not selecting people on their merits, and selected someone with seemingly no relevant skills for the position, or canning people that DO know their jobbed tell him when he's doing stupid crap. That's a big flag for anyone looking at it objectively.
Take Trump out of it.
CEO A is in charge of hiring someone to quickly mobilize a series of unrelated multinational corporations to accomplish the manufacture and distribution of just discovered Product B, because Product B cures cancer and also stops aging.
who do you hire to coordinate that:
A) your daughter's husband, who has no experience in manufacturing, logistics, or distribution, but thinks you're a really cool surrogate dad; or
B) Someone who has successfully overseen the production and national rollout of a new widget?; or
C) Someone who has a record of successfully assembling and managing massive public/private cooperative ventures?
Hint: You choose B or C.
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Someone who has a record of successfully assembling and managing massive public/private cooperative ventures?
Hint: You choose B or C.
If they want the job.
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What would Trump do if the USA was under attack from a foreign nation that might take out 100,000 to 240,000 civilians? Would he have the authority to go over the states...or would each state worry about what to do on their own.
Right now the states are under attack and projections of loss of life more than twice as many lives as the Vietnam war. Surely something can be done to get everyone in step.
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WOOHOO?
LOL. It has? Trump's grade-school thinking and petty tweeting is the New World Order? WTF is wrong with you?
Well Trump said that we cant trust China in 2016, and everyone agrees.
Trump said you dont really have a country if you dont produce your own stuff, and well, this virus is showing the world he is right.
Trump warned against the Iran deal, namely because Iran would not follow it and still attack the West, and he was right.
Trump moved the embassy, even though every expert thought it would lead to war. Trump did not think this, and he was right.
Trump decided to push forward a Middle East plan that no longer thought of the Palestinian as refugees after 60+ years and did not make a two state solution a major part of it. All the experts thought it was destine to failure, but the majority of the Middle Eastern countries sign on, showing Trump was right.
Shall I go on?
You're stuck in a past that has all been proven to be antiquated and false.
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Do you have any proof?
I say you don't get because the "restrictions" are actually minimal and common sense. Not everything revolves against Trump but you seem to think otherwise. Every decision has to be political and has to be for or against Trump. It must tough to imagine enemies where they aren't, world is a little more than black or white.
Yes, I heard her. She talks in her sleep. Proof? Give me a break!
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I'm sorry Bernard, but it looks like Craig is now the savior. ;)
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Are you simply not listening or is really so far beyond your ken that it’s becoming silly?
The President does not have the authority to tell every State they must issue a lockdown. Only each State can order such a thing. Trump could suggest it, like he has done with his 15 and now 30 days to stop the spread guidelines. He’s not a King Bernard and I find it highly amusing that recently you accuse him of ignoring the constitution and wanting him removed from office and how you want him to ignore the constitution. The irony is delicious.
Every Governor was in the loop. Every State was privy to the same information. They all made the choices they thought were correct. It was their call. That’s how it works here.
That’s the reality Bernard. You seem oblivious to that fact.
Now, In case this too is beyond you, it is estimated 75 to 85 million people died in WWII. As bad as this is it will be nowhere near the level of WWII .
Craig, you know that if he directed all the states to comply with his rule, all these same people would call him a dictator violating the constitution. Whatever he does is wrong. His enemies always take the contrarian view regardless what it is.
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Craig, you know that if he directed all the states to comply with his rule, all these same people would call him a dictator violating the constitution. Whatever he does is wrong. His enemies always take the contrarian view regardless what it is.
It really amazes me that through out the last three years Trump has been called a dictator in disguise, a real Hitler, looking to take complete control over the country, and now, when the opportunity if perfect for him to do, he has resisted it in every single situation.
Meanwhile, every Dem who told he was going to become a dictator has been calling for the government to completely take over business and our lives. Funny.
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We don't know he's doing a good job yet - time will tell. We DO know that the guy that put him charge has a history of not selecting people on their merits, and selected someone with seemingly no relevant skills for the position, or canning people that DO know their jobbed tell him when he's doing stupid crap. That's a big flag for anyone looking at it objectively.
Take Trump out of it.
CEO A is in charge of hiring someone to quickly mobilize a series of unrelated multinational corporations to accomplish the manufacture and distribution of just discovered Product B, because Product B cures cancer and also stops aging.
who do you hire to coordinate that:
A) your daughter's husband, who has no experience in manufacturing, logistics, or distribution, but thinks you're a really cool surrogate dad; or
B) Someone who has successfully overseen the production and national rollout of a new widget?; or
C) Someone who has a record of successfully assembling and managing massive public/private cooperative ventures?
Hint: You choose B or C.
Well, Kushner did pick a pretty wife and rich father-in-law.
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In other news, I never thought the USA would encourage citizens to rat out their neighbors like in the USSR, but LA Mayor Garcetti had other plans.
This week the mayor's office in LA put out a statement asking for people to turn in anyone not complying with the stay at home order. His exact words, “you know the old expression about snitches,” Garcetti said this week. “Well, in this case, snitches get rewards.” He added: “We want to thank you for turning folks in and making sure we are all safe,” he said.
Eric Michael Garcetti, our new man of steel.
Like a lottery ticket you'll never loose, scratch a socialist and you'll find a tyrant underneath every time.
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In other news, I never thought the USA would encourage citizens to rat out their neighbors like in the USSR, but LA Mayor Garcetti had other plans.
This week the mayor's office in LA put out a statement asking for people to turn in anyone not complying with the stay at home order. His exact words, “you know the old expression about snitches,” Garcetti said this week. “Well, in this case, snitches get rewards.” He added: “We want to thank you for turning folks in and making sure we are all safe,” he said.
Eric Michael Garcetti, our new man of steal.
Like a lottery ticket you'll never loose at, scratch a socialist and you'll find a tyrant underneath every time.
Really, you call it ratting out. I call it people being selfish when they go out and don't abide by the rules. For God's sake people's lives are at stake. Maybe when it hits closer to home, some people here might realize the seriousness of this virus.
I'm sorry...but your comment about ratting it is totally wrong. Tell me, would you describe to police the person you saw running away from a shooting? You have no idea he was the one doing the shooting...but would you describe him, or would you feel you are ratting out someone? How is this different...that person out and not abiding by the rules could be in the process of killing someone.
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You talk of management style not being acceptable. To who? He's president. He reports to no one except the people. He demands loyalty and excellence. If you fail at either, you're out. No second chances. No getting a break for past performance or being nice to his kids. That's how he operates. It's his way or the highway. If they don't like it, they shouldn't take the job. If they haven't figured that out yet, than their not smart enough to work for him.
Only his enemies care who he hires and who he fires and how he runs the office. All the public cares about are results. The public sees a president every day on stage who is in command. He's sticking his neck out being up there. No one else will get the credit or the blame if he fails. He knows that. That's why he's taking charge so publicly. For the election. If he succeeds, he'll be re-elected. If he fails, he won't be. It's that simple. The rest is conversation.
I can understand some guys' affection for Trump; we saw the same thing with Mao, Hitler, Pol Pot, Mussolini, Stalin, etc., millions of devoted followers, along with millions of dead, so Trumpism is not exactly new on the world stage. We just have to hope that we only wind up with 240,000 dead, because of his shortcomings, instead of millions. But, as most people here know by now, he's not my favorite guy. At least he did one fine thing, when he appointed his son-in-law, Jared Kuchner, as Virus Czar. Some people criticized JK after he nearly bankrupted his own family company by buying one of the most expensive towers in Manhattan for $1.8 billion (a record at the time) at the very, very peak, the pinnacle, the apex of the housing market there, a year before the entire real estate market went in the dumper. A week after he bought it, it was worth about a third less. But hey, that was a learning experience, obviously put to use in his cultivation of a close and essential friendship with MBS, the Saudi prince, which really saved our bacon when the Saudis and the the Russians decided to get rid of the American fracking industry. And I'm certainly happy that his much ballyhooed negotiation to arrange peace between the Palestinians and the Israelis worked out as well as it did. I'm a little less certain when he said that that New York didn't need all those ventilators, because he'd done some calculations that proved they didn't. He got this extensive business and governmental insight at Harvard, where he spend four years after his father, the billionaire, donated a couple million bucks to the place, which I'm sure had nothing to do with the admission of a guy who barely made it through high school.
So I think we're actually looking pretty good, here.
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Really, you call it ratting out. I call it people being selfish when they go out and don't abide by the rules. For God's sake people's lives are at stake. Maybe when it hits closer to home, some people here might realize the seriousness of this virus.
I'm sorry...but your comment about ratting it is totally wrong. Tell me, would you describe to police the person you saw running away from a shooting? You have no idea he was the one doing the shooting...but would you describe him, or would you feel you are ratting out someone? How is this different...that person out and not abiding by the rules could be in the process of killing someone.
I'm just amazed no one has used the "will anyone think of the children" line yet, what I occasionally hear when indulging in my Bourgeois cigar activities.
And yes, I'm calling it ratting out, because that is exactly what it is. Especially when it has become blatantly obvious nobody, even the experts, knows their ass from a whole in the ground on this thing. Fauci told us this week that you cant trust models, but then insisted that we need to lockdown because of the models. LOL, that made sense.
I have read too many articles today on experts doubting their own models, yet we are expected to continue to follow this horse shit?
And your analogy is not an apples to apples comparison. Immediate threat to life is very different then some invisible virus that well over 99% of which will survive and over 50% will not even have any symptoms, especially when not a single person anywhere in the world can give us any straight answers.
Meanwhile, we get to watch very entertaining academy award and Oscar winning program of people's lives get completely economically ruined due to government actions.
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What would Trump do if the USA was under attack from a foreign nation that might take out 100,000 to 240,000 civilians? Would he have the authority to go over the states...or would each state worry about what to do on their own.
Right now the states are under attack and projections of loss of life more than twice as many lives as the Vietnam war. Surely something can be done to get everyone in step.
The US Constitution gives sole authority to the president to be commander-in-chief of the armed forces. So yes, he would not have to go to the states to ask for any permission to order the country's defense. However, an act of war requires Congressional approval. The US Congress declares war for the entire country. Individual states can neither make war or even make treaties with other countries. That is reserved for the Federal Government. Individual states can take action if they are attacked however. The second amendment of the US Constitution allows each state to have a militia made up of its state's residents who are also constitutionally allowed to bear arms for private protection and to defend their state and country. The militia today is each state's National Guard and Reserve Units. The president can call up these units in an emergency.
Here's a picture of of the state of Michigan's Air National Guard warthogs (A-10 Thunderbolts) getting reading for deployment to Afghanistan. Notice the MI on the tail wing. It stands for Michigan.
https://detroit.cbslocal.com/2011/09/09/selfridge-airmen-prepare-for-afghanistan-deployment/
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What would Trump do if the USA was under attack from a foreign nation that might take out 100,000 to 240,000 civilians? Would he have the authority to go over the states...or would each state worry about what to do on their own.
Right now the states are under attack and projections of loss of life more than twice as many lives as the Vietnam war. Surely something can be done to get everyone in step.
His control is over Federal assets. Not States assets.
The internet has this amazing thing called “search”...it amazing what you can find there about Federal powers.
https://legal-planet.org/2020/03/18/presidential-power-in-a-pandemic/
https://reason.com/2020/03/18/police-powers-during-a-pandemic-constitutional-but-not-unlimited/
https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/guide-emergency-powers-and-their-use
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Every once in a very rare while I agree with Joe on something. Americans shouldn't rat each other out.
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We don't know he's doing a good job yet - time will tell. We DO know that the guy that put him charge has a history of not selecting people on their merits, and selected someone with seemingly no relevant skills for the position, or canning people that DO know their jobbed tell him when he's doing stupid crap. That's a big flag for anyone looking at it objectively.
Take Trump out of it.
CEO A is in charge of hiring someone to quickly mobilize a series of unrelated multinational corporations to accomplish the manufacture and distribution of just discovered Product B, because Product B cures cancer and also stops aging.
who do you hire to coordinate that:
A) your daughter's husband, who has no experience in manufacturing, logistics, or distribution, but thinks you're a really cool surrogate dad; or
B) Someone who has successfully overseen the production and national rollout of a new widget?; or
C) Someone who has a record of successfully assembling and managing massive public/private cooperative ventures?
Hint: You choose B or C.
Or you could choose A. The President gets to choose, like it or not, and I know you don’t like it. Did you read that Politico article I posted? It appears quite even handed.
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Well Trump said that we cant trust China in 2016, and everyone agrees.
Not new thinking.
Trump said you dont really have a country if you dont produce your own stuff, and well, this virus is showing the world he is right.
Trump warned against the Iran deal, namely because Iran would not follow it and still attack the West, and he was right.
He wasn't right at all. He blew up the deal and created instability where the was detente before. He's a moron.
Trump moved the embassy, even though every expert thought it would lead to war. Trump did not think this, and he was right.
A risky ploy to suck up to idiot evangelicals that didn't lead to war. Did anyone really think it would lead to war though? Really? Just more unrest in the ME, kind of like...
Trump decided to push forward a Middle East plan that no longer thought of the Palestinian as refugees after 60+ years and did not make a two state solution a major part of it. All the experts thought it was destine to failure, but the majority of the Middle Eastern countries sign on, showing Trump was right.
...this train wreck. The majority of the ME has NOT signed on, because the whole plan is basically, "we really wanna recognize the annexation of the illegal settlements. And Bibi is my friend - plus we love the same sort of graft. I mean, if you cannot wield a little unsavory power, what good is being president anyway. Totally unfair what they're doing to Bibi, by the way. A lot of people are saying so."
Shall I go on?
Please. I have a little more contempt to get out so I can have good weekend.
You're stuck in a past that has all been proven to be antiquated and false.
Not a damn thing has been proven. We kept the peace for 70 years and built the most powerful nation the world has ever known with variations on my "antiquated" philosophy. And now the poster boy for the Dunning Kreuger effect - a two-bit RE developer with a penchant for gold toilets who can barely read - thinks he knows better? The only thing stupider than that is that some of you seem to agree.
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The US Constitution gives sole authority to the president to be commander-in-chief of the armed forces. So yes, he would not have to go to the states to ask for any permission to order the country's defense. However, an act of war requires Congressional approval. The US Congress declares war for the entire country. Individual states can neither make war or even make treaties with other countries. That is reserved for the Federal Government. Individual states can take action if they are attacked however. The second amendment of the US Constitution allows each state to have a militia made up of its state's residents who are also constitutionally allowed to bear arms for private protection and to defend their state and country. The militia today is each state's National Guard and Reserve Units. The president can call up these units in an emergency.
Here's a picture of of the state of Michigan's Air National Guard warthogs (A-10 Thunderbolts) getting reading for deployment to Afghanistan. Notice the MI on the tail wing. It stands for Michigan.
https://detroit.cbslocal.com/2011/09/09/selfridge-airmen-prepare-for-afghanistan-deployment/
Alan, my God, you've said some things here that you really need to revise. Don't let the NRA hear you telling people that the National Guard is the militia, because there goes the Second Amendment, which only protects arms for the "well-regulated militia." You should also note that the U.S. Congress hasn't declared war on anyone since World War II...they apparently weren't paying attention during Korea, Vietnam, Iraq I & 2 and Afghanistan (which isn't really our longest war, because, you know it isn't technically a war.) Without revision, you could get your Tea Party card taken away.
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Or you could choose A. The President gets to choose, like it or not, and I know you don’t like it. Did you read that Politico article I posted? It appears quite even handed.
I did and it is, and yes, you CAN choose A. But why risk lives to do so?
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I'm just amazed no one has used the "will anyone think of the children" line yet.
And yes, I'm calling it ratting out, because that is exactly what it is. Especially when it has become blatantly obvious nobody, even the experts, knows their ass from a whole in the ground on this thing. Fauci told us this week that you cant trust models, but then insisted that we need to lockdown because of the models. LOL, that made sense.
I have read too many articles today on experts doubting their own models, yet we are expected to continue to follow this horse shit?
And your analogy is not an apples to apples comparison. Immediate threat to life is very different then some invisible virus that well over 99% of which will survive and over 50% will not have any symptoms, especially when not a single person anywhere in the world can give us any straight answers.
So you really think all this stuff is just horse shit. It will go away by Easter or magically like the flu. Are you an educated man...and if so in what. You seem to not trust any science...so who do you trust? Let's open up the beaches, walley world and just spin the wheel and see where it all falls out.
This continuous bitching about the science is getting a bit tiring. Why don't you go down to a hospital in NY right now and tell the people there putting their lives on the line , and yes a lot of medical people have died trying to save people like you, and tell them this whole effort is for nothing. Let's open things up and get back to normal.
Bitching about what's proposed is easy...coming up with an alternative with some facts behind it...well that's another issue.
Joe, let's hear out your view of what needs to be done so you can come out looking like a hero when only 100,000 are lost.
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Every once in a very rare while I agree with Joe on something. Americans shouldn't rat each other out.
Thanks John.
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The US Constitution gives sole authority to the president to be commander-in-chief of the armed forces. So yes, he would not have to go to the states to ask for any permission to order the country's defense. However, an act of war requires Congressional approval. The US Congress declares war for the entire country. Individual states can neither make war or even make treaties with other countries. That is reserved for the Federal Government. Individual states can take action if they are attacked however. The second amendment of the US Constitution allows each state to have a militia made up of its state's residents who are also constitutionally allowed to bear arms for private protection and to defend their state and country. The militia today is each state's National Guard and Reserve Units. The president can call up these units in an emergency.
Here's a picture of of the state of Michigan's Air National Guard warthogs (A-10 Thunderbolts) getting reading for deployment to Afghanistan. Notice the MI on the tail wing. It stands for Michigan.
https://detroit.cbslocal.com/2011/09/09/selfridge-airmen-prepare-for-afghanistan-deployment/
Well the USA is under attack like never before.
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His control is over Federal assets. Not States assets.
The internet has this amazing thing called “search”...it amazing what you can find there about Federal powers.
https://legal-planet.org/2020/03/18/presidential-power-in-a-pandemic/
https://reason.com/2020/03/18/police-powers-during-a-pandemic-constitutional-but-not-unlimited/
https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/guide-emergency-powers-and-their-use
So a lame duck then.
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So you really think all this stuff is just horse shit. It will go away by Easter or magically like the flu. Are you an educated man...and if so in what. You seem to not trust any science...so who do you trust? Let's open up the beaches, walley world and just spin the wheel and see where it all falls out.
This continuous bitching about the science is getting a bit tiring. Why don't you go down to a hospital in NY right now and tell the people there putting their lives on the line , and yes a lot of medical people have died trying to save people like you, and tell them this whole effort is for nothing. Let's open things up and get back to normal.
Bitching about what's proposed is easy...coming up with an alternative with some facts behind it...well that's another issue.
Joe, let's hear out your view of what needs to be done so you can come out looking like a hero when only 100,000 are lost.
Like I said, it has become blatantly obvious we only know two things, people will die and more will if we go back to life as normal. That's it.
How many more will die if we go back to life as normal no one, not a single person anywhere in the world, has any clue on. Is it 50K or 5M additional deaths? No one knows. If it was 5M I can see the argument for the lockdown. 50K and you lost me.
But I am not going to follow these draconian rules for much longer with such a large range of uncertainty, especially since over 99% will survive this. I am not going to sit back and watch my bank account diminish, and I might add our liquidity is much better then most but still, with such a range of "what ifs" that no one can give concrete answers on.
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So a lame duck then.
Nope, just the President of The United States, not a king or a dictator and bound by rules based upon our constitution.
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Finally, one that makes sense for me.
As a business owner with my phone number out there in many places, I get so many scam calls.
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I did and it is, and yes, you CAN choose A. But why risk lives to do so?
You don’t know you are risking lives. Ever see the film Hacksaw Ridge? Sometimes people you don’t expect to perform turn in an amazing performance. They rise to the occasion. That’s the point. Your best pick might turn out to have warts so to speak.
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Not going to lie, Alan Goldhammer may be on the direct opposite side of the spectrum political then I, but I would take his word on medical research over many others every day of the year, especially given his credentials and experience.
?
What I said it's not critique of what Alan said, but a call to have some more data before we take those numbers for real. From what I've seen they are based more on mathematical models than actual data.
Obviously I don't have the time to spend 5 hours per day to look at this info in particular, but the origin of the info seems to be this article: https://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2020/03/24/science.abb3221
It could be accurate but it could be another case of garbage in / garbage out scenario, if the the model is accurate to start with.
Let's say you apply that data to Italy for example, if 9 people have the virus for every symptomatic patient, will it explain the spread? Was it applied to other places outside of China?
Don't get me wrong, I would love for the info to be accurate (much lower mortality) but I'm skeptic by formation and I've seen way to many studies with great results turn sour later.
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Like I said, it has become blatantly obvious we only know two things, people will die and more will if we go back to life as normal. That's it.
How many more will die if we go back to life as normal no one, not a single person anywhere in the world, has any clue on. Is it 50K or 5M additional deaths? No one knows. If it was 5M I can see the argument for the lockdown. 50K and you lost me.
But I am not going to follow these draconian rules for much longer with such a large range of uncertainty, especially since over 99% will survive this. I am not going to sit back and watch my bank account diminish, and I might add our liquidity is much better then most but still, with such a range of "what ifs" that no one can give concrete answers on.
Without definitive numbers, you are ready to risk your life or more importantly risk infecting and killing others just because no one can tell you exactly how many will die. Tell me...did anyone tell all those young men how many will die in Vietnam when they were out rounding up the troops?
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?
What I said it's not critique of what Alan said, but a call to have some more data before we take those numbers for real. From what I've seen they are based more on mathematical models than actual data.
Obviously I don't have the time to spend 5 hours per day to look at this info in particular, but the origin of the info seems to be this article: https://science.sciencemag.org/content/early/2020/03/24/science.abb3221
It could be accurate but it could be another case of garbage in / garbage out scenario, if the the model is accurate to start with.
Let's say you apply that data to Italy for example, if 9 people have the virus for every symptomatic patient, will it explain the spread? Was it applied to other places outside of China?
Point taken, thanks.
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Without definitive numbers, you are ready to risk your life or more importantly risk infecting and killing others just because no one can tell you exactly how many will die. Tell me...did anyone tell all those young men how many will die in Vietnam when they were out rounding up the troops?
Man you really go out of your way looking for inaccurate analogies. Comparing war to a virus with a sub 1% fatality is foolhardy. I would not want to go to war, but what sane person does. Even if you survive, the scars of war last for decades. But we are not talking about war, we are talking about a virus with a very low death rate, so I'm going to play your flawed game.
If this was Ebola death rates, I would be taking it more seriously. Yet a rate similar to the flu?
Yes, I would be willing to risk my life with this virus, especially if they are predicting everyone will catch it anyway. Like I said, with the extreme level of uncertainty the experts are putting out, I am not going to watch my business falter. I will be scheduling shoots, going out and shooting those damn buildings with many less people I need to Photoshop out.
Listen, I promise you I will engage in the best social distance possible. I'll light up a double corona each time, giving me a three hour window where no one will want to come within 10 meters of me. ;)
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Man you really go out of your way looking for inaccurate analogies. Comparing war to a virus with a sub 1% fatality is foolhardy. I would not want to go to war, but what sane person does. Even if you survive, the scars of war last for decades. But we are not talking about war, we are talking about a virus with a very low death rate, so I'm going to play your flawed game.
If this was Ebola death rates, I would be taking it more seriously. Yet a rate similar to the flu?
Yes, I would be willing to risk my life with this virus, especially if they are predicting everyone will catch it anyway. Like I said, with the extreme level of uncertainty the experts are putting out, I am not going to watch my business falter. I will be scheduling shoots, going out and shoot those damn buildings.
Really a low death rate...1% is low? If you let it run rampant through the USA by just getting back to normal because you are bored sitting in your house and let's say only 1/2 of the population picks up thus extremely contagious virus...geez only 1,600,000 people will die and 8,500,000 people will be hospitalized with 3,200,000 people needing ICU care.
You can live with this?
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Alan, my God, you've said some things here that you really need to revise. Don't let the NRA hear you telling people that the National Guard is the militia, because there goes the Second Amendment, which only protects arms for the "well-regulated militia." You should also note that the U.S. Congress hasn't declared war on anyone since World War II...they apparently weren't paying attention during Korea, Vietnam, Iraq I & 2 and Afghanistan (which isn't really our longest war, because, you know it isn't technically a war.) Without revision, you could get your Tea Party card taken away.
Well, I'm a coffee drinker mainly. In any case, I thought the National Guard did come from the original militias. But I may be wrong. I wouldn't want to get into trouble with my gun-toting neighbors especially since I don't bear any arms.
It's true that the cowardly congress hasn't done it's duty too well and has let the presidents "go to war" without direct authority. But I believe the Supreme Court has gone along with it since Congress budgets money for these wars. In essence giving approval for them since they agreed to finance them. Not sure it's been tested yet.
Additionally they have given weaselly words of supporting armed action to defend the country. I suppose those are solid enough for most presidents to send tanks and jets. If they want to stop it, they just have to shut off funding. That's what happened at the end in VietNam. With no funding, the SOuth Vietnam srmy collapsed and the north conquered the south.
Interestingly, Trump is very much against these war. Even before he became president, he opposed many of our adventures overseas like in Iraq. He keeps griping how we spent 8 trillion dollars in the middle east and a lot of blood lost for little gain. He's used our armed forces sparingly but effectively against ISIS and other terrorists, put a little clamp on Iran, but has mainly withdrawn many troops. He talks big. But it's mainly bluff and bluster. He really doesn't want us to fight. He'd rather use economic leverage to get our way.
All the accusations that he's a warmonger and dictator is just politics. We'll have to wait for the history books in twenty years to get the true story about his presidency.
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Well the USA is under attack like never before.
Well, I don't think the president can order the states to restrict movement. Medical issues are not consider international war. Maybe some other part of the constitution or federal law could be used like martial law. If he did, it would be challenged in the Supreme Court and decided.
In any case, Trump has said what he believes. And he's leaving it to the individual states and their governors to decide how they want their state run. States are very touchy about their rights. Remember our CIvil War with 700,000 killed on both sides was fought over the state's rights issues. State vs. federal authority has been a sore point over and over again in our history. Imagine if there was some central authority in Europe telling all the nations of Europe what to do regardless of local laws. It's kind of like that.
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Man you really go out of your way looking for inaccurate analogies. Comparing war to a virus with a sub 1% fatality is foolhardy. I would not want to go to war, but what sane person does. Even if you survive, the scars of war last for decades. But we are not talking about war, we are talking about a virus with a very low death rate, so I'm going to play your flawed game.
If this was Ebola death rates, I would be taking it more seriously. Yet a rate similar to the flu?
Yes, I would be willing to risk my life with this virus, especially if they are predicting everyone will catch it anyway. Like I said, with the extreme level of uncertainty the experts are putting out, I am not going to watch my business falter. I will be scheduling shoots, going out and shooting those damn buildings with many less people I need to Photoshop out.
Listen, I promise you I will engage in the best social distance possible. I'll light up a double corona each time, giving me a three hour window where no one will want to come within 10 meters of me. ;)
Try DiNobilis if they still make them. No one will come near you for a week.
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You must be a bit under the weather tonight Bernard, your post reeks of fantasy. Are you suffering from a fever?
Your point was crystal clear...let me referent your feverish mind...
You said
“If we ignore your advice and hear what Trump is saying then we listen to a president who didn’t deny the pandemic... but denied way too long (at least 2 weeks) it was a real threat and one whose resolution should take immediate precedence over the economy. Which should have meant immediate wide spread confinement.
Once again, if you have the capacity, Trump never denied the pandemic, his experts did not deny the pandemic and told the worldv of their findings and suggestions. Every Governor had access the the information. The law limits the Presidents actions. He did and is doing what he can. The rest belongs to the States. Welcome to the USA.
Now I know, given your possible condition, that this information might not be received by you in a coherent manner and for that You have my best wishes on a speedy recovery.
I guess it boils down to differences of perception about the value of human life and about the definition of what a competent leader is.
If there is one thing I always admired from past Republican is an ability to be decisive and to take the decisions that need to be taken timely. But I understand that you have had to lower you standards on that front.
Btw, please don’t put in my mouths words I did not pronounce. I have never said that Trump denied the epidemic. What he did deny is its severity and that resulted in delayed leadership.
I have already answered clearly about the role of States.
The obvious truth is that Trump had the choice to either encourage the populations and the States to take decisive actions early, he chose the exact opposite course of action. Using every opportunity to publicly downplay the severity of the pandemic and that has had a disastrous impact on the spread of the epidemic, resulting in many additional casualties and far worsened economic impacts.
All the will be studied by scolars in time, don’t worry.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I can't help but feeling that China did this deliberately to rush history and put them at the forefront of economic power. Of course, it may backfire if America and others don't buy their products because we're all broke. But they may not care. Or they may have miscalculated how it would shut down the world. What do you think?
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I guess it boils down to differences of perception about the value of human life and about the definition of what a competent leader is.
If there is one thing I always admired from past Republican is an ability to be decisive and to take the decisions that need to be taken timely. But I understand that you have had to lower you standards on that front.
Btw, please don’t put in my mouths words I did not pronounce. I have never said that Trump denied the epidemic. What he did deny is its severity and that resulted in delayed leadership.
I have already answered clearly about the role of States.
The obvious truth is that Trump had the choice to either encourage the populations and the States to take decisive actions early, he chose the exact opposite course of action. Using every opportunity to publicly downplay the severity of the pandemic and that has had a disastrous impact on the spread of the epidemic, resulting in many additional casualties and far worsened economic impacts.
All the will be studied by scolars in time, don’t worry.
Cheers,
Bernard
I really feel sorry for you. You think you have the ability to foresee the future but you can’t even deal directly with the past. Or the rule of law...or actual facts on the ground.
Best of luck with your recovery. May it be swift and full and return to to a proper state of mind.
Added on edit:
The irony here is just delicious...
Virus spread in Japan prompts US to issue warning.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-in-japan-spread-draws-warning-us-embassy-americans-get-out-2020-04-03/
An explosive surge in infections is inevitable if Japan doesn't rapidly adopt tough restrictions like those in the U.S. and Europe, Hokkaido University Professor Hiroshi Nishiura has told Nikkei.
"Voluntary stay-home guidelines so far have only cut person-to-person contact on public transit by 20%, but contact needs to be cut by at least 80%," the forecasting expert said. Unless control measures are stepped-up, his modelling predicts new cases in Tokyo will peak at 6,000 per day.
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We keep arguing over the past, whether good decisions or bad were made. Why not leave that for the history books? The question I see, is how are we going to get out of this mess going forward? Both the medical and economic issues are huge. America is spending trillions for recovery; don;t know if it will work. The rest of the world also has huge economic issues. How are they going to resolve them? I think 49 pages of arguing about who's at fault is enough. Can we move on to the future?
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We keep arguing over the past, whether good decisions or bad were made. Why not leave that for the history books? The question I see, is how are we going to get out of this mess going forward? Both the medical and economic issues are huge. America is spending trillions for recovery; don;t know if it will work. The rest of the world also has huge economic issues. How are they going to resolve them? I think 49 pages of arguing about who's at fault is enough. Can we move on to the future?
Good idea. Start making face masks and oatmeal bread.
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Good idea. Start making face masks and oatmeal bread.
Is there any place that sells green ink for my Canon printer?
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Some weird stories coming out tonight about shipments of medical supplies ordered by states being intercepted and taken by the Feds. :/
Oh. And Trump just fired the intelligence services IG for obeying the law and being impartial
Scandal 2,376 and 7 for this group of unamerican vipers.
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Some weird stories coming out tonight about shipments of medical supplies ordered by states being intercepted and taken by the Feds. :/
Oh. And Trump just fired the intelligence services IG for obeying the law and being impartial.
Yea, good for Trump, that IG was less than impartial and law abiding.
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Yea, good for Trump, that IG was less than impartial and law abiding.
Bullshit
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...
Oh. And Trump just fired the intelligence services IG for obeying the law and being impartial
...
Let's stick with Covid in this thread.
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Is there any place that sells green ink for my Canon printer?
Just glue a handful of fresh spinach leaves to the paper or canvass prior to printing. Then use straight edge razor or Artist's Adhesive Remover to clean up the artwork.
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Let's stick with Covid in this thread.
Fair.
The stories about the diverted supplies are really strange.
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How are we going to get out economies back in line with news like this? A bottle of Snapple Diet Peach costs more than that.
At one point last week, Western Canadian Select heavy crude tumbled as low as $3.82 a barrel.
https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/canada-in-talks-with-opec-as-oil-route-continues-162622627.html
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Fair.
The stories about the diverted supplies are really strange.
Do you have more info?
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The stories about the diverted supplies are really strange.
They were definitely not diverted to Canada. Trump ordered today the 3M company to stop selling the N95 masks to Canada.
U.S.-based company 3M said Friday that it has been asked by the Trump administration not to supply N95 respirators to Canada amid the novel coronavirus pandemic.
“The administration also requested that 3M cease exporting respirators that we currently manufacture in the United States to the Canadian and Latin American markets,” a statement from the company read. The company said the move raised “humanitarian” concerns. “There are, however, significant humanitarian implications of ceasing respirator supplies to health-care workers in Canada and Latin America, where we are a critical supplier of respirators,” the statement added.
https://globalnews.ca/news/6772979/coronavirus-3m-n95-respirators-trump-canada/
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Do you have more info?
Not really. A few governors (R and D both) are saying that they’ve ordered medical supplies and they are being impounded by the Feds at port. One claim is that they had to go underground with a Chinese official and the Alaskan state government to circumvent customs or something. A more widely reported claim deals with a German order that got rerouted in Thailand. We’ll probably get more over the weekend.
Like I said - really odd.
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They were definitely not diverted to Canada. Trump ordered today the 3M company to stop selling the N95 masks to Canada.
https://globalnews.ca/news/6772979/coronavirus-3m-n95-respirators-trump-canada/
Sorry. :(.
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For someone like me, who is 75 with some medical conditions, this is scary. We shouldn't let any ventilators out of the country or other medical equipment. Is that immoral, unfair?
As coronavirus cases grow, hospitals adopt a system to rank patients for treatment
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/03/health/coronavirus-hospital-ethics-ventilators-invs/index.html
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For someone like me, who is 75 with some medical conditions, this is scary. We shouldn't let any ventilators out of the country or other medical equipment. Is that immoral, unfair?
As coronavirus cases grow, hospitals adopt a system to rank patients for treatment
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/03/health/coronavirus-hospital-ethics-ventilators-invs/index.html
Moral condumdrum: I'm 76 with two stents. I got the stents 13 years ago when I weighed 210. (I'm 6'1') That scared me enough to become almost a vegetarian, though I still occasionally will eat chicken. (Like once a month.) I don't drink or smoke. I now weigh 176 (5 minutes ago when I got off the exercise bike), I ride the bike hard five days a week, pushing my heart rate to 95% of theoretical maximum for my age, and until my club closed, I swam 500 meters two days a week and a 1000 meters once a week. If I get this virus, do I go to the hospital as an elderly man with two stents, or as a guy who, though 76, is actually in excellent shape? I'm leaning toward the former.
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Moral condumdrum: I'm 76 with two stents. I got the stents 13 years ago when I weighed 210. (I'm 6'1') That scared me enough to become almost a vegetarian, though I still occasionally will eat chicken. (Like once a month.) I don't drink or smoke. I now weigh 176 (5 minutes ago when I got off the exercise bike), I ride the bike hard five days a week, pushing my heart rate to 95% of theoretical maximum for my age, and until my club closed, I swam 500 meters two days a week and a 1000 meters once a week. If I get this virus, do I go to the hospital as an elderly man with two stents, or as a guy who, though 76, is actually in excellent shape? I'm leaning toward the former.
If you’re bad enough to go, you go. Same as you would if you were 21, 45, 13, or 90. Even if you were Canadian.
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Moral condumdrum: I'm 76 with two stents. I got the stents 13 years ago when I weighed 210. (I'm 6'1') That scared me enough to become almost a vegetarian, though I still occasionally will eat chicken. (Like once a month.) I don't drink or smoke. I now weigh 176 (5 minutes ago when I got off the exercise bike), I ride the bike hard five days a week, pushing my heart rate to 95% of theoretical maximum for my age, and until my club closed, I swam 500 meters two days a week and a 1000 meters once a week. If I get this virus, do I go to the hospital as an elderly man with two stents, or as a guy who, though 76, is actually in excellent shape? I'm leaning toward the former.
I was thinking about that. I'd tell them I'm in perfect help other then my 75 years old. Feel like 50. If you tell them the truth, they'll triage you out of the ICU room and let you die.
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If you’re bad enough to go, you go. Same as you would if you were 21, 45, 13, or 90. Even if you were Canadian.
James you didn't read the article. The hospitals don't have enough ventilators. So they'll triage so that only those most likely to survive get the machines. The rest have to breathe on their own which can be impossible if you develop pneumonia from the virus. It's a very bad pneumonia that really clogs up your lungs. Basically, you suffocate to death. They knock you unconscious and intubated you although I don't even know if they can do that without a ventilator.
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The ethical question seems perfectly clear, you tell the truth about your history and current condition, and trust the medical professionals to make the correct decision. Whether you choose to act ethically or not while confronting your fear is another question. But I wouldn't want my lie to cost someone else their life (and possibly more than one).
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I really feel sorry for you. You think you have the ability to foresee the future but you can’t even deal directly with the past. Or the rule of law...or actual facts on the ground.
Best of luck with your recovery. May it be swift and full and return to to a proper state of mind.
Added on edit:
The irony here is just delicious...
Virus spread in Japan prompts US to issue warning.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-in-japan-spread-draws-warning-us-embassy-americans-get-out-2020-04-03/
An explosive surge in infections is inevitable if Japan doesn't rapidly adopt tough restrictions like those in the U.S. and Europe, Hokkaido University Professor Hiroshi Nishiura has told Nikkei.
"Voluntary stay-home guidelines so far have only cut person-to-person contact on public transit by 20%, but contact needs to be cut by at least 80%," the forecasting expert said. Unless control measures are stepped-up, his modelling predicts new cases in Tokyo will peak at 6,000 per day.
Craig,
Not sure what you are saying, I have only been writing about the past, not a word about the future. I have only commented about what Trump has not done the way he should have as the commander in chief of the most powerful country on earth.
I still haven't see the slightest bit of relevant answer to the points I have been making. Which can only be understood as an acknowledgement that his behavior has indeed fallen far short of expectations.
Regarding this article, the irony is indeed delicious... you stress that taking measures late and way too partially in Japan is a problem (which I agree 1,000% with) but fail to criticize your own president for having strongly contributed for the very same issue in the US...
In won't even comment on the tone of your replies...
Finally, I once again wonder what Trump would have to do or not to do in order to loose support from fanatics of your caliber. Obviously contributing to the death of thousands of elderly citizens isn't considered by you as a major issue...
Cheers,
Bernard
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Regarding this article, the irony is indeed delicious... you stress that taking measures late and way too partially in Japan is a problem (which I agree 1,000% with) but fail to criticize your own president for having strongly contributed for the very same issue in the US...
How can the US criticise any other country?
Japan for example has 2617 confirmed cases and 65 deaths. Currently sitting number 32 in the world.
USA has 213,600 cases and 4793 deaths and sitting number ONE. More cases than China and Italy combined.
Helloooo?
(sorry if i missed the last 20 pages)
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In other news, I never thought the USA would encourage citizens to rat out their neighbors like in the USSR, but LA Mayor Garcetti had other plans.
This week the mayor's office in LA put out a statement asking for people to turn in anyone not complying with the stay at home order. His exact words, “you know the old expression about snitches,” Garcetti said this week. “Well, in this case, snitches get rewards.” He added: “We want to thank you for turning folks in and making sure we are all safe,” he said.
Eric Michael Garcetti, our new man of steel.
Like a lottery ticket you'll never loose, scratch a socialist and you'll find a tyrant underneath every time.
That is one of the most irrational, desperate posts I have come across here on LuLa or anywhere else - which isn't surprising, as I don't visit many places where I know I will be exposed to mass stupidity cloaked as loyalty to some brand or another. I just wrote cloaked: perhaps that's a mistake, and the two are actually one and the same thing.
On Sky News a couple of minutes ago I watched Trump say that the wearing of masks had been suggested as a voluntary exercise to prevent infection being spread person to person, but that he probaby wouldn't be wearing one himself.
In one sentence he shows himself the most dumb leader any nation has been cursed to bear. A direct appeal to the myth of the cowboy, the superhero who is beyond all challenges, too brave (read stupid) to take precautions that could not only save himself but fellow citizens. Why is it dificult to comprehend that wearing a mask keeps your flying sneeze or snot inside your mask and not flying into the eyes, noses or mouths of those near you? And vice versa!
You can blame who you like for the place you are in, but boy, you cannot convincingly deny you are being led by a goat. And that goat can't even lead by good example, but only do so by exhibiting the very worst one he can find.
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Nope, just the President of The United States, not a king or a dictator and bound by rules based upon our constitution.
Craig, it seems like under a declared "State of Emergency" you guys are "subjects" and your President does become a "king"...
Senate Report 93-549
War and Emergency Powers Acts https://famguardian.org/Subjects/LawAndGovt/Articles/SenateReport93-549.htm
"These proclamations give force to 470 provisions of Federal law. These hundreds of statutes delegate to the President extraordinary powers, ordinarily exercised by the Congress, which affect the lives of American citizens in a host of all-encompassing manners. This vast range of powers, taken together, confer enough authority to rule the country without reference to normal Constitutional processes.
Under the powers delegated by these statutes, the President may:
seize property; organize and control the means of production; seize commodities; assign military forces abroad; institute martial law; seize and control all transportation and communication; regulate the operation of private enterprise; restrict travel; and, in a plethora of particular ways, control the lives of all American citizens."
If this is the case then, the way I see it, the haphazard response of the USA is in the hands of one person...
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How can the US criticise any other country?
Japan for example has 2617 confirmed cases and 65 deaths. Currently sitting number 32 in the world.
USA has 213,600 cases and 4793 deaths and sitting number ONE. More cases than China and Italy combined.
Helloooo?
Sure Bob!
But still, I completely agree with Craig on this. Japan is acting utterly irresponsibly and the criticism is totally deserved.
The thing though is that Japan has been the first country to be contaminated outside China, they never closed flights, have only closed schools but never imposed a confinement. They are far worse than the US even after the huge mistakes Trump has made.
But... Japanese people mostly wear masks in Feb/Mar to protect themselves from polen and are probably benefiting from a stronger immunity thanks to BCG vaccine strain Tokyo 172. Purely out of an incredible luck.
I honestly think that tens of thousand of people would have died in Japan without this. Authorities seem completely unable to act.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Yea, good for Trump, that IG was less than impartial and law abiding.
How so?
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I read this but need help understanding it. US health care seems like such a rat's nest to non-Americans, https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/03/trump-obamacare-coronavirus-164285 (https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/03/trump-obamacare-coronavirus-164285).
It sounds to me as if people who are laid off at this time lose their employer health coverage. So their other option would have been to enrol in Obamacare (sorry I don't know its official name or how to refer to it) but that enrolment had been closed. All the parties involved agreed to re-open enrolment but Trump unilaterally decided to keep enrolment closed. Instead he promised to reimburse hospitals for Covid-19 treatment.
Is my summary correct?
The article specifically referred to hospitals, is it truly hospitals only?
Also, this only promises re-imbursement for Covid-19 care only, nothing else, is this correct?
Does this mean that all those newly unemployed Americans have no health coverage other than what they buy for themselves?
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That is one of the most irrational, desperate posts I have come across here on LuLa or anywhere else - which isn't surprising, as I don't visit many places where I know I will be exposed to mass stupidity cloaked as loyalty to some brand or another. I just wrote cloaked: perhaps that's a mistake, and the two are actually one and the same thing.
On Sky News a couple of minutes ago I watched Trump say that the wearing of masks had been suggested as a voluntary exercise to prevent infection being spread person to person, but that he probaby wouldn't be wearing one himself.
In one sentence he shows himself the most dumb leader any nation has been cursed to bear. A direct appeal to the myth of the cowboy, the superhero who is beyond all challenges, too brave (read stupid) to take precautions that could not only save himself but fellow citizens. Why is it dificult to comprehend that wearing a mask keeps your flying sneeze or snot inside your mask and not flying into the eyes, noses or mouths of those near you? And vice versa!
You can blame who you like for the place you are in, but boy, you cannot convincingly deny you are being led by a goat. And that goat can't even lead by good example, but only do so by exhibiting the very worst one he can find.
So you’re for ratting people out? Because that is what that post was about. That would be so Stalinesc.
What’s next, hanging wooden doors from basement walls and really teach these people a lesson?
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So you’re for ratting people out? Because that is what that post was about. That would be so Stalinesc.
What’s next, hanging wooden doors from basement walls and really teach these people a lesson?
Perhaps a smarter way of using your time would be to do some soul searching about the relevance of still supporting Trump instead of trying to win conversations here?
Cheers,
Bernard
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Perhaps a smarter way of using your time would be to do some soul searching about the relevance of still supporting Trump instead of trying to win conversations here?
Cheers,
Bernard
And maybe you could spend your time researching USA civics, so when you criticize our government you will actually understand how it works.
FYI, I use to be a devote liberal Democrat in my early to mid-20s. I've done my soul-searching already.
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Really a low death rate...1% is low? If you let it run rampant through the USA by just getting back to normal because you are bored sitting in your house and let's say only 1/2 of the population picks up thus extremely contagious virus...geez only 1,600,000 people will die and 8,500,000 people will be hospitalized with 3,200,000 people needing ICU care.
You can live with this?
At the greater expense of the economy, yes.
But as I said, you speak as if you actually know how many more will die, but you dont. No does, not even the medical experts. Not a single person can give us any definitive answers, and I dont think we should sit back and watch the economy implode without any concrete answers on how many people we are saving by staying inside.
As I said, the ranges they are putting out their is 50K to 2.25M in the USA alone. That's too large a range to make any sense of what is coming out of our talking heads.
I'll give it another week and half, mainly because that is how much longer it will take for the leaves to come out. But if I dont get real answers by then, I'm not going to listen to these draconian measures anymore.
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At the greater expense of the economy, yes.
But as I said, you speaking as if you actually know how many more will die, but you dont. No does, not even the medical experts.
It would be interesting to see how cutting back on restrictions and a return to work could happen on the ground. There's no mystery anymore about how risky the bug is, so if the word came out that people should go back to work today, I wonder how many people would say, "Ok, you first." People might see it as that first wave out of the trenches.
You keep repeating that we don't know how many will die. Well, maybe not to the third decimal but I'd say we have a pretty good idea by now, or the rest of us do, I don't know why you don't. The blanket statement that experts don't all agree is pure silliness. We know enough so we know what to do today. When new data emerge we'll know more. That is how everything works.
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At the greater expense of the economy, yes.
But as I said, you speak as if you actually know how many more will die, but you dont. No does, not even the medical experts. Not a single person can give us any definitive answers, and I dont think we should sit back and watch the economy implode without any concrete answers on how many people we are saving by staying inside.
As I said, the ranges they are putting out their is 50K to 2.25M in the USA alone. That's too large a range to make any sense of what is coming out of our talking heads.
I'll give it another week and half, mainly because that is how much longer it will take for the leaves to come out. But if I dont get real answers by then, I'm not going to listen to these draconian measures anymore.
One big reason no one can give you an better estimate is because of people like you that are getting bored sitting inside and "only give it another week" before saying fuck it...I'm going back to business as usual. One thing you know for sure is that people act like you and say fuck it...many more people will die...maybe even you.
Tell me, are you starving right now? Are you in pain in someway. Why exactly do you need to break loose out of your home? Just to stick it to the man?
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It would be interesting to see how cutting back on restrictions and a return to work could happen on the ground. There's no mystery anymore about how risky the bug is, so if the word came out that people should go back to work today, I wonder how many people would say, "Ok, you first." People might see it as that first wave out of the trenches.
You keep repeating that we don't know how many will die. Well, maybe not to the third decimal but I'd say we have a pretty good idea by now, or the rest of us do, I don't know why you don't. The blanket statement that experts don't all agree is pure silliness. We know enough so we know what to do today. When new data emerge we'll know more. That is how everything works.
Point me to the studies Rob.
Show me a definitive amount (or even just a small range, not the it could 50K or 2M more).
I have been looking and no one can. But you know what, people's lives will be completely ruined if we continue this, and for you to discount that is very discouraging.
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Craig,
Not sure what you are saying, I have only been writing about the past, not a word about the future. I have only commented about what Trump has not done the way he should have as the commander in chief of the most powerful country on earth.
I still haven't see the slightest bit of relevant answer to the points I have been making. Which can only be understood as an acknowledgement that his behavior has indeed fallen far short of expectations.
Regarding this article, the irony is indeed delicious... you stress that taking measures late and way too partially in Japan is a problem (which I agree 1,000% with) but fail to criticize your own president for having strongly contributed for the very same issue in the US...
In won't even comment on the tone of your replies...
Finally, I once again wonder what Trump would have to do or not to do in order to loose support from fanatics of your caliber. Obviously contributing to the death of thousands of elderly citizens isn't considered by you as a major issue...
Cheers,
Bernard
Oh my Bernard, you can’t even remember your own words, your illness must be more pronounced that I originally thought. Let’s review shall we? You have told us how you believe Trumps actions will cause more death and more damage to the economy. How do you know the FUTURE Bernard? Sheesh, you may be beyond help.
I love this you say “ should have done” like you again know the future. Your problem is that you have not made any “relevant points”. 60 percent of Americans find Trump is doing a good job, last time I looked.
You don’t understand our system of government, And you don’t understand our people. All you understand is your hate for a Trump. It’s kind of sad. What’s sadder is you even told Joe, and a good swath of America by extension they we complicit in the death of scores of Americans by supporting their President. That’s pretty sick Bernard. In fact it’s disgusting.
You spend multiple posts denigrating Americans because they don’t share your hatred of Trump, yet your own country is a mess. You say Trump did the same but the reality is just the opposite. His administration was truthful with the American people about the dangers of this virus from day one. Everyone had the information they needed to make informed decisions. He acted within the scope of his legal ability, and at times offered hope the results might not be as bad as feared. He spend massive amounts of time speaking with the Governors of every State and him and his team of experts offered them advice and information.
Ok, you don’t like...BFD. You don’t get a vote .
I hope you find a cure for your sickness.
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One big reason no one can give you an better estimate is because of people like you that are getting bored sitting inside and "only give it another week" before saying fuck it...I'm going back to business as usual. One thing you know for sure is that people act like you and say fuck it...many more people will die...maybe even you.
Tell me, are you starving right now? Are you in pain in someway. Why exactly do you need to break loose out of your home? Just to stick it to the man?
You want me to stick to it, start showing me concrete numbers.
If you cant, too bad. I'd rather keep the economy afloat then having it all burn down due to some maybe this or maybe that, we just dont know, you cant trust models anyway but you need to do this just because jargon.
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That is one of the most irrational, desperate posts I have come across here on LuLa or anywhere else - which isn't surprising, as I don't visit many places where I know I will be exposed to mass stupidity cloaked as loyalty to some brand or another. I just wrote cloaked: perhaps that's a mistake, and the two are actually one and the same thing.
On Sky News a couple of minutes ago I watched Trump say that the wearing of masks had been suggested as a voluntary exercise to prevent infection being spread person to person, but that he probaby wouldn't be wearing one himself.
In one sentence he shows himself the most dumb leader any nation has been cursed to bear. A direct appeal to the myth of the cowboy, the superhero who is beyond all challenges, too brave (read stupid) to take precautions that could not only save himself but fellow citizens. Why is it dificult to comprehend that wearing a mask keeps your flying sneeze or snot inside your mask and not flying into the eyes, noses or mouths of those near you? And vice versa!
You can blame who you like for the place you are in, but boy, you cannot convincingly deny you are being led by a goat. And that goat can't even lead by good example, but only do so by exhibiting the very worst one he can find.
Rob it’s a CHOICE, not a demand. Now if Trump spends time out with people who have not been vetted for the virus, and he’s not wearing a mask, complain to your hearts content. To critique him from not wearing a mask in his home and office is simply silly.
Btw, do you know they are now using the 15 min test for the virus for people who see the President?
And while we are on the complaining kick, did your Sky News people have on masks? Do the press at Trumps briefing wear masks?
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Craig, it seems like under a declared "State of Emergency" you guys are "subjects" and your President does become a "king"...
Senate Report 93-549
War and Emergency Powers Acts https://famguardian.org/Subjects/LawAndGovt/Articles/SenateReport93-549.htm
"These proclamations give force to 470 provisions of Federal law. These hundreds of statutes delegate to the President extraordinary powers, ordinarily exercised by the Congress, which affect the lives of American citizens in a host of all-encompassing manners. This vast range of powers, taken together, confer enough authority to rule the country without reference to normal Constitutional processes.
Under the powers delegated by these statutes, the President may:
seize property; organize and control the means of production; seize commodities; assign military forces abroad; institute martial law; seize and control all transportation and communication; regulate the operation of private enterprise; restrict travel; and, in a plethora of particular ways, control the lives of all American citizens."
If this is the case then, the way I see it, the haphazard response of the USA is in the hands of one person...
Try again. National Emergency Act
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Emergencies_Act
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The ethical question seems perfectly clear, you tell the truth about your history and current condition, and trust the medical professionals to make the correct decision. Whether you choose to act ethically or not while confronting your fear is another question. But I wouldn't want my lie to cost someone else their life (and possibly more than one).
Yes. Trust in God. Good advice. Thanks.
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At the greater expense of the economy, yes.
But as I said, you speak as if you actually know how many more will die, but you dont. No does, not even the medical experts. Not a single person can give us any definitive answers, and I dont think we should sit back and watch the economy implode without any concrete answers on how many people we are saving by staying inside.
As I said, the ranges they are putting out their is 50K to 2.25M in the USA alone. That's too large a range to make any sense of what is coming out of our talking heads.
I'll give it another week and half, mainly because that is how much longer it will take for the leaves to come out. But if I dont get real answers by then, I'm not going to listen to these draconian measures anymore.
Would you be willing to sacrifice your loved ones for the economy, or perhaps only those of others?
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I read this but need help understanding it. US health care seems like such a rat's nest to non-Americans, https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/03/trump-obamacare-coronavirus-164285 (https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/03/trump-obamacare-coronavirus-164285).
It sounds to me as if people who are laid off at this time lose their employer health coverage. So their other option would have been to enrol in Obamacare (sorry I don't know its official name or how to refer to it) but that enrolment had been closed. All the parties involved agreed to re-open enrolment but Trump unilaterally decided to keep enrolment closed. Instead he promised to reimburse hospitals for Covid-19 treatment.
Is my summary correct?
The article specifically referred to hospitals, is it truly hospitals only?
Also, this only promises re-imbursement for Covid-19 care only, nothing else, is this correct?
Does this mean that all those newly unemployed Americans have no health coverage other than what they buy for themselves?
Hi Robert,
In a general sense, your understanding is correct. There are a few caveats:
1) Even if you are employed that's still not a guarantee that you have coverage in the first place.
2) If you do have coverage and are let go, you have the option of COBRA coverage, which basically allows you to continue your employer-sponsored coverage, but you have to assume the cost of it (probably between $500-1000 USD a month). I believe you can do that for 8 months or so, but I'm not certain of the exact timeline.
3) If you DO lose your coverage, that is considered a "qualifying event" and you can then sign up for the ACA ("Obamacare") even if you are outside the usual enrollment period.
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So you’re for ratting people out? Because that is what that post was about. That would be so Stalinesc.
What’s next, hanging wooden doors from basement walls and really teach these people a lesson?
Turm in a Jew and get 10 Marks. Turn in an infected person and get ten face masks.
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Craig, it seems like under a declared "State of Emergency" you guys are "subjects" and your President does become a "king"...
Senate Report 93-549
War and Emergency Powers Acts https://famguardian.org/Subjects/LawAndGovt/Articles/SenateReport93-549.htm
"These proclamations give force to 470 provisions of Federal law. These hundreds of statutes delegate to the President extraordinary powers, ordinarily exercised by the Congress, which affect the lives of American citizens in a host of all-encompassing manners. This vast range of powers, taken together, confer enough authority to rule the country without reference to normal Constitutional processes.
Under the powers delegated by these statutes, the President may:
seize property; organize and control the means of production; seize commodities; assign military forces abroad; institute martial law; seize and control all transportation and communication; regulate the operation of private enterprise; restrict travel; and, in a plethora of particular ways, control the lives of all American citizens."
If this is the case then, the way I see it, the haphazard response of the USA is in the hands of one person...
That's why we have the second Amendment protecting the right to bear arms. But the main issue it that while there are Congressional laws on the books that give the president huge power, they all have not been tested constitutionally. As the Muslim Ban showed, the president cannot act unconstitutionally. His power is restricted. Additionally, the War Powers act is for armed conflict with other nations, not a medical emergency. So many of those powers would not apply in this situation. I do agree the government has too much power and has flaunted the constitution with Supreme Court acceptance. But our constitution has protected our liberty for the most part and still does today after 230 years, a surprising bright statistic in the awful history of most governments.
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You want me to stick to it, start showing me concrete numbers.
If you cant, too bad. I'd rather keep the economy afloat then having it all burn down due to some maybe this or maybe that, we just dont know, you cant trust models anyway but you need to do this just because jargon.
We'll show me the numbers like you say the impact on the economy and how many will starve to death or committ suicide or go out gun fighting in the street. Show me the numbers on how the economy will destroy you. Show me the numbers on how long it will take to get the economy back to normal.
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So you’re for ratting people out? Because that is what that post was about. That would be so Stalinesc.
What’s next, hanging wooden doors from basement walls and really teach these people a lesson?
In the present circumstances, and considering we speak of the difference between life and death, damned sure I would approve of "ratting them out" as you like to put it.
This is not some pathetic little school playground situation; I would have thought any adult would appreciate the differences of both circumstance and degree. Apparently, not always so in the States. However, it does go some way to understamding the juvenile approach to guns, politics, lying leaders and the absolute absorption with self.
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Would you be willing to sacrifice your loved ones for the economy, or perhaps only those of others?
Or possibly yourself. I just can't see anyone so selfish that they would go out against orders with the knowledge they could infect someone that can die from the disease. I have not heard exactly how Joe is suffering being cooped up in his home.
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I read this but need help understanding it. US health care seems like such a rat's nest to non-Americans, https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/03/trump-obamacare-coronavirus-164285 (https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/03/trump-obamacare-coronavirus-164285).
It sounds to me as if people who are laid off at this time lose their employer health coverage. So their other option would have been to enrol in Obamacare (sorry I don't know its official name or how to refer to it) but that enrolment had been closed. All the parties involved agreed to re-open enrolment but Trump unilaterally decided to keep enrolment closed. Instead he promised to reimburse hospitals for Covid-19 treatment.
Is my summary correct?
The article specifically referred to hospitals, is it truly hospitals only?
Also, this only promises re-imbursement for Covid-19 care only, nothing else, is this correct?
Does this mean that all those newly unemployed Americans have no health coverage other than what they buy for themselves?
All bets are off. Trump and the Republicans have thrown in with the Democrats. They all will spend and print whatever it takes to get re-elected. The money machine will continue to run ad infinitum.
Why does everyone want to only talk about American issues. Why has the Italian and Spanish health care not done it's job. I understand despite all the public clamor here, America has 5 times the number of ventilators than Europe has. Why has European health system failed in many cases? Why weren't they prepared?
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And maybe you could spend your time researching USA civics, so when you criticize our government you will actually understand how it works.
FYI, I use to be a devote liberal Democrat in my early to mid-20s. I've done my soul-searching already.
You know the expression. If you're not a liberal at 18, you have no soul. If you're still a liberal at 48, you have no brains. :)
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Point me to the studies Rob.
Show me a definitive amount (or even just a small range, not the it could 50K or 2M more).
I have been looking and no one can. But you know what, people's lives will be completely ruined if we continue this, and for you to discount that is very discouraging.
Don't know about your country, but in my country we can trust the information from the government which has its Outbreak Management Team that is operating based on scientific facts. Such facts differ by country and region, but there's a lot of similarity between them but also some differences (e.g. how well people adhere to the official advice). Whenever there is new information, the public advice will be adjusted, so it is not a static situation but it does allow to adjust based on the latest facts.
Yesterday the police arrested and fined a group of 30 knuckleheads who gathered in a bar in a Fuck Corona party (bars and restaurants are officially closed). On top of the ticket of €400 for each and €4000 for the owner, maybe they should be put in mandatory quarantine since they've proven that they are unfit to participate in a civilized society anyway. That behavior may also result in an adjustment for that city's rules for public behavior, because of the changed risk profile.
We'll leave the tar and feathers approach to the 'social' media.
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It would be interesting to see how cutting back on restrictions and a return to work could happen on the ground. There's no mystery anymore about how risky the bug is, so if the word came out that people should go back to work today, I wonder how many people would say, "Ok, you first." People might see it as that first wave out of the trenches.
You keep repeating that we don't know how many will die. Well, maybe not to the third decimal but I'd say we have a pretty good idea by now, or the rest of us do, I don't know why you don't. The blanket statement that experts don't all agree is pure silliness. We know enough so we know what to do today. When new data emerge we'll know more. That is how everything works.
I agree. Most places won;t re-open for the few that want to use their services. So places will stay closed now until the virus passes. The question is then what? Will the huge economic stimulus encourage businesses to open up again?
I was reading a few days ago that Michigan (I believe) expected fully 1/3 of their restaurants to never open again. That's around 6000 business. Multiply that across the country and add so many others that just won't make it regardless what they want to do. What good is getting a loan from the government if people don;t respond and go back to business as normal. I really hope we all do. But considering the hit people have taken to their 401K' and loss of jobs, it's going to be a long hard road.
The problem is we're starting off with huge debt already. State governments and the Federal government is broke. Corporate loans are huge. People won't be able to pay their mortgages and car loans or college loans. How will they pay credit card debt? Inflation is going to kick in raising prices to the sky with a lot less work. It remind me of "stagflation" of the 1970s. That even though the economy was sinking, and you'd expect lower prices, the opposite happened and prices were going up at the same time people were losing jobs and companies closing. I think we're in for a real disaster. SHould the virus then hit again next year (assuming it stops this year), it will all start over again.
Let's hope I'm wrong and this thing ends soon. That the economy rebounds as quickly as possible and we can all get on with our lives.
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Rob it’s a CHOICE, not a demand. Now if Trump spends time out with people who have not been vetted for the virus, and he’s not wearing a mask, complain to your hearts content. To critique him from not wearing a mask in his home and office is simply silly.
Btw, do you know they are now using the 15 min test for the virus for people who see the President?
And while we are on the complaining kick, did your Sky News people have on masks? Do the press at Trumps briefing wear masks?
He acknowledged at the news conference that everyone was tested including him and they're all negative. So wearing a mask would serve no purpose. I wonder if the news reporters were tested as well? I can't imagine the Secret Service letting them or anyone else in without getting tested.
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I agree. Most places won;t re-open for the few that want to use their services. So places will stay closed now until the virus passes. The question is then what? Will the huge economic stimulus encourage businesses to open up again?
I was reading a few days ago that Michiga (I believe) expected full 1/3 of their restaurant to never open again. That's around 6000 business. Multiply that acros the country and add so many others that juts won't make it regardless what they want to do. What good is getting a loadn from the government if people don;t respond and go back to business as normal. I really hope we all do. But considering the hit people have taken to their 401K' and loss of jobs, it's going to be a long hard road.
The problem is we're starting off with huge debt already. State governments and the Federal government is broke. Corporate loans are huge. People won't be able to pay their mortgages and car loans or college loans. How will they pay credit card debt? Inflation is going to kick in raising prices to the sky with a lot less work. It remind me of "stagflation" of the 1970s. That even though the economy was sinking, and you'd expect lower prices, the opposite happened and prices were going up at the same time people were losing jobs and companies closing. I think we're in for a real disaster. SHould the virus than hit again next year (assuming it stops this year), it will all start over again.
Let's hope I'm wrong and this thing ends soon. That the economy rebounds as quickly as possible and we can all get on with our lives.
If there's a need, a business will open. In my city which is very dependant on the tourists to drive the business, many restaurants close up every year...just to be replaced with new restaurants next year. Demand drives the restaurants. Recovery won't be instinct...but if demand is there, restaurants and other businesses will come back.
One thing certain...those that succumb to the virus will never come back...well maybe in India where the belief of reincarnation is very strong.
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Would you be willing to sacrifice your loved ones for the economy, or perhaps only those of others?
False choice. The economy hasn't shutdown totally. How are you getting your food? Many people are working. They're taking precautions to not infect others nor get infected themselves.
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He acknowledged at the news conference that everyone was tested including him and they're all negative. So wearing a mask would serve no purpose. I wonder if the news reporters were tested as well? I can't imagine the Secret Service letting them or anyone else in without getting tested.
You got to be continually tested because you don't know that door handle you just opened didn't have the virus on it just waiting for a host.
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False choice. The economy hasn't shutdown totally. How are you getting your food? Many people are working. They're taking precautions to not infect others nor get infected themselves.
Those who ignore the measures put themselves, their loved ones, other folk and other folk's loved ones at increased risk.
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If there's a need, a business will open. In my city which is very dependant on the tourists to drive the business, many restaurants close up every year...just to be replaced with new restaurants next year. Demand drives the restaurants. Recovery won't be instinct...but if demand is there, restaurants and other businesses will come back.
One thing certain...those that succumb to the virus will never come back...well maybe in India where the belief of reincarnation is very strong.
That's not so bad. Maybe we'd come back as rajahs.
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You got to be continually tested because you don't know that door handle you just opened didn't have the virus on it just waiting for a host.
Trump was tested the day before. Even if you get infected now, it still takes a number of days to incubate before you can spread it to others. You're getting paranoiac. Of course if he did get it, and coughed at the news conference and gave it to Jim Acosta, it would make his day. :)
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False choice. The economy hasn't shutdown totally. How are you getting your food? Many people are working. They're taking precautions to not infect others nor get infected themselves.
And yet with all these protective measures, the infected numbers continue to rise sharply. Wonder what their numbers would be if everyone returned to work.
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That's not so bad. Maybe we'd come back as rajahs.
The belief is depending on how much Karma one accumulates, they might come back in a better position than when they left or in a lower class. In your case Alan, if you break your isolation and go out...I would think you'd lose a bunch of Karma and maybe come back as a rat.
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Those who ignore the measures put themselves, their loved ones, other folk and other folk's loved ones at increased risk.
I agree that we all want to be reasonable. But everyone has a different situation. For example, my wife and I are retired. We're not working. We both get Social Security and government pensions. We're both on Medicare so health costs aren't an issue. Those will continue regardless. So we'll be OK. We're lucky, well, except we're old farts.
I've been speaking with a lot of younger people who work and are not now. They've been laid off. They're worried sick they cannot pay their bills, feed their families, will lose their health insurance, their cars, their homes. They have children in college, well, they're home now. But how will they afford tuition? Starving forces people to do crazy stuff. In Stalingrad during WWII, people became cannibals to eat, cutting arms off of the dead lying in the street.
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I agree that we all want to be reasonable. But everyone has a different situation. For example, my wife and I are retired. We're not working. We both get Social Security and government pensions. We're both on Medicare so health costs aren't an issue. Those will continue regardless. So we'll be OK. We're lucky, well, except we're old farts.
I've been speaking with a lot of younger people who work and are not now. They've been laid off. They're worried sick they cannot pay their bills, feed their families, will lose their health insurance, their cars, their homes. They have children in college, well, they're home now. But how will they afford tuition? Starving forces people to do crazy stuff. In Stalingrad during WWII, people became cannibals to eat, cutting arms off of the dead lying in the street.
And the richest country in the world is going to let their citizens get to desperation mode? So much for being rich.
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I agree that we all want to be reasonable. But everyone has a different situation. For example, my wife and I are retired. We're not working. We both get Social Security and government pensions. We're both on Medicare so health costs aren't an issue. Those will continue regardless. So we'll be OK. We're lucky, well, except we're old farts.
I've been speaking with a lot of younger people who work and are not now. They've been laid off. They're worried sick they cannot pay their bills, feed their families, will lose their health insurance, their cars, their homes. They have children in college, well, they're home now. But how will they afford tuition? Starving forces people to do crazy stuff. In Stalingrad during WWII, people became cannibals to eat, cutting arms off of the dead lying in the street.
So, what do you propose?
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The belief is depending on how much Karma one accumulates, they might come back in a better position than when they left or in a lower class. In your case Alan, if you break your isolation and go out...I would think you'd lose a bunch of Karma and maybe come back as a rat.
Here I was hoping you'd come back as a rajah yet you want me to come back as a rat. Hmmm.
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You got to be continually tested because you don't know that door handle you just opened didn't have the virus on it just waiting for a host.
White House to test visitors for virus
https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/2020/04/03/white-house-give-coronavirus-tests-people-near-donald-trump/2942704001/
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So, what do you propose?
I wasn't proposing anything. I was just trying to show how important an economy is. In the old days, we could live on subsistence. We'd grab our guns and go shoot a moose to eat. Today we have to work along with others. NYC has 8 1/2 million people, 25,000 people per square mile. There are no mooses around.
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Here I was hoping you'd come back as a rajah yet you want me to come back as a rat. Hmmm.
It's never too late to build up your karma.
Actually the Hindus try to break the reincarnation cycle and stay in heaven forever. I've watched bodies being cremated along the Ganges in open fires nod their ashes thrown into the sacred river with the thought your soul would remain in heaven.
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I wasn't proposing anything. I was just trying to show how important an economy is. In the old days, we could live on subsistence. We'd grab our guns and go shoot a moose to eat. Today we have to work along with others. NYC has 8 1/2 million people, 25,000 people per square mile. There are no mooses around.
Still tons of guns around...but not to shoot moose...
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Once again, if you have the capacity, Trump never denied the pandemic, his experts did not deny the pandemic and told the worldv of their findings and suggestions. Every Governor had access the the information. The law limits the Presidents actions. He did and is doing what he can. The rest belongs to the States. Welcome to the USA.
My earlier post regarding the "National Emergencies Act" stands.
However, for the sake of argument, let us assume you are right regarding the presidents limitations (legal) - he still has the The Public Health Services Act -
"The act clearly established the federal government's quarantine authority for the first time. It gave the United States Public Health Service responsibility for preventing the introduction, transmission and spread of communicable diseases from foreign countries into the United States.
He could have, six weeks ago, put the entire country under quarantine and you guys would be in a much better position than you are now.
Before you talk about hindsight, remember that other countries did precisely that...
And that is as far down this rabbit hole I am going with you.
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White House to test visitors for virus
https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/2020/04/03/white-house-give-coronavirus-tests-people-near-donald-trump/2942704001/
Ok...that's smart...but coming on TV standing shoulder to shoulder at the podium while preaching separation gives you very conflicting pictures.
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In the present circumstances, and considering we speak of the difference between life and death, damned sure I would approve of "ratting them out" as you like to put it.
This is not some pathetic little school playground situation; I would have thought any adult would appreciate the differences of both circumstance and degree. Apparently, not always so in the States. However, it does go some way to understamding the juvenile approach to guns, politics, lying leaders and the absolute absorption with self.
In Raleigh, NC, a public bus driver continued driving his bus for three days WITH covid-19 symptoms. And his job had paid sick time. And his employer had told the drivers that they could take paid sick time for CV symptoms without it counting against them. Yes, such people should be "ratted out" and put in forced isolation.
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It's never too late to build up your karma.
Actually the Hindus try to break the reincarnation cycle and stay in heaven forever. I've watched bodies being cremated along the Ganges in open fires nod their ashes thrown into the sacred river with the thought your soul would remain in heaven.
I'm still working on staying alive down here. I think I'll let God decide what happens later. :)
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Still tons of guns around...but not to shoot moose...
Different thread.
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My earlier post regarding the "National Emergencies Act" stands.
However, for the sake of argument, let us assume you are right regarding the presidents limitations (legal) - he still has the The Public Health Services Act -
"The act clearly established the federal government's quarantine authority for the first time. It gave the United States Public Health Service responsibility for preventing the introduction, transmission and spread of communicable diseases from foreign countries into the United States.
He could have, six weeks ago, put the entire country under quarantine and you guys would be in a much better position than you are now.
Before you talk about hindsight, remember that other countries did precisely that...
And that is as far down this rabbit hole I am going with you.
He's been burned before. He tried to keep Muslim terrorists out of the country and look what happened. Once burned, twice foolish.
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Ok...that's smart...but coming on TV standing shoulder to shoulder at the podium while preaching separation gives you very conflicting pictures.
Not to me. YMMV
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Ok...that's smart...but coming on TV standing shoulder to shoulder at the podium while preaching separation gives you very conflicting pictures.
Who wants their president to look like a nerd, a wimp wearing a mask? He's not the Lone Ranger. Can you imagine the lack of confidence it would generate if he stood there with all his Joint Chief of Staff generals and admirals all wearing surgical masks? Our enemies would laugh at us. How presidential does Biden look hiding in his basement sneezing into his hands getting criticized by CNN's Jake Tapper?
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The US Navy is probably the most traditional of all the branches. Captains go down with their ship. You don't embarrass your commander or the navy by sending out emails to 20-30 people to cover your ass and make it seem like others weren't doing their job. ...
Newsweek
CORONAVIRUS
Veterans have spoken out against the decision to relieve the captain of the U.S.S. Theodore Roosevelt after he sent a letter to the Navy pleading for help after his ship was stricken with the coronavirus.
Thomas Modly, the acting secretary of the Navy, accused Capt. Brett Crozier of having "poor judgment" for using a "non-secure, unclassified" email address to write an email to his immediate chain of command which also included "20 or 30" additional recipients.
Crozier's letter, which was then leaked and published by the San Francisco Chronicle, asked officials for help in isolating more than 4,000 sailors onboard the aircraft carrier docked in Guam, after a COVID-19 outbreak was detected among its crew. A day after the letter was published, around 1,000 sailors were removed from the Theodore Roosevelt. A total of 114 crew have since tested positive for COVID-19.
Crozier said the move was necessary as the warship's "inherent limitations of space" meant the virus was spreading rapidly despite the other crew members distancing themselves.
"This will require a political solution but it is the right thing to do," Crozier wrote. "We are not at war. Sailors do not need to die. If we do not act now, we are failing to properly take care of our most trusted asset — our Sailors."
Speaking at a press conference, Modly said Crozier was not relieved because the letter was leaked — although he "did not take care to ensure that it couldn't be leaked," noting it appeared in his hometown paper — but for causing unnecessary panic.
A video posted on Facebook by a sailor onboard the USS Theodore Roosevelt says everything there is to say about the firing of Navy Capt. Brett Crozier about how things look to a sailor or soldier when they are out there doing their jobs, compared to the view from a desk in Washington, DC.
Hundreds of sailors stood in the hanger deck of the aircraft carrier shouting, applauding and cheering for their C.O. after he was relieved of command by Acting Secretary of the Navy Thomas Modly.
"That's how you send out one of the greatest captains you ever had," the video maker narrates as you watch sailors crowded together cheering, "... the man for the people."
The official cause for Captain Crozier's firing is showing "extremely poor judgment" in bringing attention to the spread of coronavirus amongst his crew. His sending of a letter calling for help "demonstrated extremely poor judgment in the middle of a crisis," Modly says. "Because what it's done is, it's created a firestorm. It's created doubts about the ship's ability to go to sea if it needs to. It's created doubt among the families about the health of their sailors, and that was a completely unnecessary thing to do in the midst of the crisis."
The firing of Captain Crozier rings of political pressure from on high, especially because the ship's captain went public in his concern for the health and safety of the thousands of sailors under his command.
So there you go ,
Prezzie, against the express wishes of his military chiefs and the verdict of a court-martial allows a war criminal (Edward Gallagher) to keep his SEAL status (and pension) - yet a Commander respected and 'loved' by his crew on board one of America's nuclear aircraft carriers gets the sack for ...
Perspective.
video: https://t.co/hwiu7Z1MVV
video: https://www.facebook.com/1093930141/videos/10216506735516262/
(https://d.newsweek.com/en/full/1578958/uss-theodore-roosevelt-brett-crozier-secrecy-coronavirus.jpg?w=790&f=1409d0c9861c4307fc295b084863e9fd)
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Not to me. YMMV
It's not mileage that varies...it's the general US population that is looking at their leader at times if crisis. Image plays a huge role in leadership.
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Who wants their president to look like a nerd, a wimp wearing a mask? He's not the Lone Ranger. Can you imagine the lack of confidence it would generate if he stood there with all his Joint Chief of Staff generals and admirals all wearing surgical masks? Our enemies would laugh at us. How presidential does Biden look hiding in his basement sneezing into his hands getting criticized by CNN's Jake Tapper?
I'm not talking about wearing a mask, I talking about standing 2 meters apart from one another...exactly what he is asking the citizens to do.
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Newsweek
So there you go ,
Prezzie, against the express wishes of his military chiefs and the verdict of a court-martial allows a war criminal (Edward Gallagher) to keep his SEAL status (and pension) - yet a Commander respected and 'loved' by his crew on board one of America's nuclear aircraft carriers gets the sack for ...
Perspective.
https://www.facebook.com/1093930141/videos/10216506735516262/
(https://d.newsweek.com/en/full/1578958/uss-theodore-roosevelt-brett-crozier-secrecy-coronavirus.jpg?w=790&f=1409d0c9861c4307fc295b084863e9fd)
I'm sure his sailors and officers respected him greatly. I respect that. He tried to take care of them. That was the right thing to do.
But he did it in a wrong way. The Navy is run by officers through a chain of command. He should have respected that and made his request and given the issues to his immediate commanding officer to handle. He didn't try to resolve it at that level. He went over his boss's head. Not only that, he sent the same complaint letter or email to 20-30 people. Why? It seems like he was trying to protect his ass and didn't have the courage and trust his immediate commanders to handle the situation. He embarrassed his boss by doing that, showing a lack of respect.
Did you ever work for a boss and then if you didn't like what he was doing went over his head to his boss to complain before talking to him about it first? Well, what do you think happens to you? Well, that's what happened here. If you have hierarchies in civilian life, it's tens times more strict in the Navy. You don't violate protocol. It shows you as a loose cannon on a ship, no pun intended. Will you follow orders in the future during a war or put your ship and men into a threat of your own making? Will you embarrass your superiors and the Navy by not following the rules?
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Newsweek
So there you go ,
Prezzie, against the express wishes of his military chiefs and the verdict of a court-martial allows a war criminal (Edward Gallagher) to keep his SEAL status (and pension) - yet a Commander respected and 'loved' by his crew on board one of America's nuclear aircraft carriers gets the sack for ...
Perspective.
video: https://t.co/hwiu7Z1MVV
video: https://www.facebook.com/1093930141/videos/10216506735516262/
(https://d.newsweek.com/en/full/1578958/uss-theodore-roosevelt-brett-crozier-secrecy-coronavirus.jpg?w=790&f=1409d0c9861c4307fc295b084863e9fd)
It's a fuckin' disgrace.
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The belief is depending on how much Karma one accumulates, they might come back in a better position than when they left or in a lower class. In your case Alan, if you break your isolation and go out...I would think you'd lose a bunch of Karma and maybe come back as a rat.
Or a virus. 8-)
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Alan Klein,
Think again, You've posted over a 100 times within the past 24 hours - if I'm going to be kind ( I am) your judgement is clouded.
The captain didn't go over anybody's head. He reacted when, from a Monday to Thursday (4 days) high command didn't respond and his men were, in his opinion, put in danger, As he said "We're not at war ..."
The kind of Commander soldiers and sailors respect.
'Only' 91% of those polled think the sacking unjustified. Clearly, you weren't amongst them.
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Alan Klein,
Think again, You've posted over a 100 times within the past 24 hours - if I'm going to be kind ( I am) your judgement is clouded.
The captain didn't go over anybody's head. He reacted when, from a Monday to Thursday (4 days) high command didn't respond and his men were, in his opinion, put in danger, As he said "We're not at war ..."
The kind of Commander soldiers and sailors respect.
'Only' 91% of those polled think the sacking unjustified.
91% of the people are not in the Navy. That's how it's always worked.
In any case, why did he write 20-30 people? Who were these people? Are there procedures in place to go above your immediate commander when an issue isn't being settled? Did he follow those procedures? The Secretary of the Navy did not have a problem with his wanting to help his crew, just the way he went about it.
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My earlier post regarding the "National Emergencies Act" stands.
However, for the sake of argument, let us assume you are right regarding the presidents limitations (legal) - he still has the -
"The act clearly established the federal government's quarantine authority for the first time. It gave the United States Public Health Service responsibility for preventing the introduction, transmission and spread of communicable diseases from foreign countries into the United States.
He could have, six weeks ago, put the entire country under quarantine and you guys would be in a much better position than you are now.
Before you talk about hindsight, remember that other countries did precisely that...
And that is as far down this rabbit hole I am going with you.
You posted about the War and Emergency Powers Act. Not the National Emergency Act. I suggest you do know know what you are talking about and if I'm wrong I will be happy to say so.
The link you posted is a Senate Report of the Senate doing a study to END the very act you are stating gives the President the powers you think he has. They later passed new rules. In other words you didn't know what you thought you knew.
Now once again...can Trump do it?
NPR says no.
https://www.npr.org/2020/04/02/825293201/a-president-is-not-able-to-order-a-national-quarantine-experts-say
The Atlantic says no...
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/03/why-theres-no-national-lockdown/609127/
Politico says maybe...
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/13/trump-extreme-powers-coronavirus-129176
The Hill says maybe or maybe not...
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/488735-could-trump-declare-national-coronavirus-shutdown-momentum-is-rising
US News says no...
https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2020-04-01/despite-grim-projections-trump-resists-national-quarantine
Reason says no...
https://reason.com/2020/04/03/no-trump-does-not-have-the-power-to-declare-a-national-stay-at-home-order/
Barrons says no...
https://www.barrons.com/articles/a-14-day-national-coronavirus-lockdown-is-probably-unconstitutional-heres-what-the-government-could-do-instead-51584399648
Us Reports again says no...
https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2020-04-01/states-largely-have-authority-over-when-to-shut-down-reopen
and so on...
WE are a Federalist Country and as such the powers for the actions you suggest lie with the States and not the President.
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I've been speaking with a lot of younger people who work and are not now. They've been laid off. They're worried sick they cannot pay their bills, feed their families, will lose their health insurance, their cars, their homes. They have children in college, well, they're home now. But how will they afford tuition? Starving forces people to do crazy stuff.
Where have you been talking to these young people? I thought you lived in a 55+ community and haven't been out of the house in two weeks.
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Don't know about your country, but in my country we can trust the information from the government which has its Outbreak Management Team that is operating based on scientific facts. Such facts differ by country and region, but there's a lot of similarity between them but also some differences (e.g. how well people adhere to the official advice). Whenever there is new information, the public advice will be adjusted, so it is not a static situation but it does allow to adjust based on the latest facts.
Have they begun to screen the population for SARS-CoV-2 antibodies using a blood test in The Netherlands? It strikes me that the country's population is small enough that massive testing is achievable at a modest cost. I know that researchers at Erasmus Univ had done the preliminary work that could be used for validation. I believe there are some European companies that may be manufacturing these tests. We only have ONE approved for use in the US. Lots of Asian companies have developed them but not validated according to a defined standard.
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And the richest country in the world is going to let their citizens get to desperation mode? So much for being rich.
A number of stop gap bills have been passed to help with the problem. Not everyone will be made whole. Lots of people will lose a lot of money and some their homes and businesses. No goverment can fix all of this. Personally its going to cost me plenty. It already has and it will continue. The Government is not going to fix it all for me. Thats just the facts of life.
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It's not mileage that varies...it's the general US population that is looking at their leader at times if crisis. Image plays a huge role in leadership.
And a strong leader who is unafraid also conveys a huge message. I for one like the image. Again, YMMV
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It's a fuckin' disgrace.
The military works from a different set of rules than what applies to you or me.
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Where have you been talking to these young people? I thought you lived in a 55+ community and haven't been out of the house in two weeks.
I have younger friends that I communicate with as well. There are a lot of younger people right here in the forums. Dealing with old people all the time is depressing. It's like my community is the last stop before the end. I refuse to read the community's newsletter and emails. There's always someone dying they tell you about, a funeral, etc.
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It's not mileage that varies...it's the general US population that is looking at their leader at times if crisis. Image plays a huge role in leadership.
Unfortunately. You know ours uses a lot of suntan makeup and has the world's most elaborate comb-over. I'm not saying that Biden doesn't have hair plugs or that Bernie isn't bald. A good look is hard to find.
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And a strong leader who is unafraid also conveys a huge message. I for one like the image. Again, YMMV
So you think he looks strong because he isn't social distancing. Look at me I'm staring this virus down...I'm not afraid of it.
You call it strong, I'll call it stupid.
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Newsweek
So there you go ,
Prezzie, against the express wishes of his military chiefs and the verdict of a court-martial allows a war criminal (Edward Gallagher) to keep his SEAL status (and pension) - yet a Commander respected and 'loved' by his crew on board one of America's nuclear aircraft carriers gets the sack for ...
Perspective.
video: https://t.co/hwiu7Z1MVV
video: https://www.facebook.com/1093930141/videos/10216506735516262/
(https://d.newsweek.com/en/full/1578958/uss-theodore-roosevelt-brett-crozier-secrecy-coronavirus.jpg?w=790&f=1409d0c9861c4307fc295b084863e9fd)
Yes, because you know it’s always in a country’s best interest to announce to the world we have 1/11 of our aircraft carriers compromised, especially with China ramping up its navy to take advantage of the situation.
You have no military expertise or understanding of strategy at all it seems.
He compermised our perceived naval standing, thus giving other countries potential reasoning to make military moves, which China decided to, and deserved getting sacked! The seal insident, regardless of what you think about it, did no such thing.
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Who wants their president to look like a nerd, a wimp wearing a mask? He's not the Lone Ranger. Can you imagine the lack of confidence it would generate if he stood there with all his Joint Chief of Staff generals and admirals all wearing surgical masks? Our enemies would laugh at us. How presidential does Biden look hiding in his basement sneezing into his hands getting criticized by CNN's Jake Tapper?
Nothing wrong with wearing the mask. The side benefit would be keeping his mouth shut. Safer for America.
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91% of the people are not in the Navy.
> Do you know who they polled ? Judging by the reaction, if it had been the carrier , it would have been higher
That's how it's always worked.
> Learn your country's history,
In any case, why did he write 20-30 people?
> He didn't
Who were these people?
> Ask them.
Are there procedures in place to go above your immediate commander when an issue isn't being settled?
> He didn't
Did he follow those procedures?
>Yes.
The Secretary of the Navy did not have a problem with his wanting to help his crew, just the way he went about it.
> No, Modly said 'Crozier was not relieved because the letter was leaked but for causing unnecessary panic".
Read more , post less ?
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Hi Robert,
In a general sense, your understanding is correct. There are a few caveats:
1) Even if you are employed that's still not a guarantee that you have coverage in the first place.
2) If you do have coverage and are let go, you have the option of COBRA coverage, which basically allows you to continue your employer-sponsored coverage, but you have to assume the cost of it (probably between $500-1000 USD a month). I believe you can do that for 8 months or so, but I'm not certain of the exact timeline.
3) If you DO lose your coverage, that is considered a "qualifying event" and you can then sign up for the ACA ("Obamacare") even if you are outside the usual enrollment period.
Thanks very much.
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Nothing wrong with wearing the mask. The side benefit would be keeping his mouth shut. Safer for America.
It's hard enough to understand what he's saying. :D
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Read more , post less ?
He embarrassed the Navy and his commanders. You don't do that. If you were his boss, how would you feel? How could you trust him going forward? He was removed from his command. He was not removed from the Navy. He kept his rank as Captain.
But it's an impossible situation to be his boss. He had to be moved out of his current position to another. Of course, he probably blew his career. No Admiral will trust him. But knowing Washington DC, some politician will get him a promotion to Admiral for political reasons. So it might actually work out for him. But for the NAvy, it was an untenable situation.
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But it's an impossible situation to be his boss. He had to be moved out of his current position to another. Of course, he probably blew his career. No Admiral will trust him. But knowing Washington DC, some politician will get him a promotion to Admiral for political reasons. So it might actually work out for him. But for the NAvy, it was an untenable situation.
I heard they were considering Jared Kushner as his replacement.
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1/3 of Americans have taken a pay cut or lost their job.
(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/19858365/PP_2020.03.26_coronavirus_impact_1_04.png)
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I heard they were considering Jared Kushner as his replacement.
Too wimpy looking, even without a mask.
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1/3 of Americans have taken a pay cut or lost their job.
(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/19858365/PP_2020.03.26_coronavirus_impact_1_04.png)
Wait until we see the numbers for deaths instead of money.
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He embarrassed the Navy and his commanders. You don't do that. If you were his boss, how would you feel? How could you trust him going forward? He was removed from his command. He was not removed from the Navy. He kept his rank as Captain.
But it's an impossible situation to be his boss. He had to be moved out of his current position to another. Of course, he probably blew his career. No Admiral will trust him. But knowing Washington DC, some politician will get him a promotion to Admiral for political reasons. So it might actually work out for him. But for the NAvy, it was an untenable situation.
This was so much more then just embarrassment. What many on the left don't seem to understand is that he put it out there for everyone to read that 1/11 of our naval strength is now compromised by this virus.
Even if it was, you don't announce it out to your enemies because they may not know it, and even if they have an idea there are always doubts on intelligence. Now there are no doubts, which creates an opening to take advantage of.
Regardless if you believe China's numbers or not, they were the first to get this and will more then likely be the first to recover from it. This gives them a great strategic advantage militarily already. They know this, and anyone who does not think they will try and take advantage here has been living under a rock for the last 10 years.
The captain's irresponsible handling of the situation on board only makes it a better situation for China to take advantage of.
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So you think he looks strong because he isn't social distancing. Look at me I'm staring this virus down...I'm not afraid of it.
You call it strong, I'll call it stupid.
Sheeh, he is in a controlled environment with arguably the best security, health and otherwise in the world. Intelligent people should be able to understand that. Besides he is working with these people daily in a meeting setting. These press confereences are the tip of the iceberg.
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Wait until we see the numbers for deaths instead of money.
I'd rather deal with a known issue then fumble around with an unknown.
We have no quantitative idea how different the effects of this virus will be given the how much or how little we lockdown.
However, we do know that we will experience a total economic collapse up to the level of the Great Depression if we continue this lockdown too long. That will hurt more lives then what we save from the virus by staying locked down.
The naiveté that some of you show denying the real suffering that would come from an economic collapse like this is astonishing. 32%, a third, of all working age Americans out of jobs, a number worse then the Great Depression, is nothing to sneeze at.
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is nothing to sneeze at.
This time its nothing to have a sore throat at, or nothing to have a fever at...:)
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This time its nothing to have a sore throat at, or nothing to have a fever at...:)
Thanks Craig.
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Sheeh, he is in a controlled environment with arguably the best security, health and otherwise in the world. Intelligent people should be able to understand that. Besides he is working with these people daily in a meeting setting. These press confereences are the tip of the iceberg.
He might be safe...great...but it's the message he is sending out to millions of people that standing side by side with each other is OK.
What harm would there be if everyone was 6' apart...I can see a very positive message with it...but tell me what harm is there?
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He might be safe...great...but it's the message he is sending out to millions of people that standing side by side with each other is OK.
What harm would there be if everyone was 6' apart...I can see a very positive message with it...but tell me what harm is there?
If you watched the conference, you would have heard him say that they were tested and all were negative. I don't know many people getting together in groups. The streets are empty and people are moving around in ones unless they're with family members. Give people some credit or are you just saying all this for political reasons?
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My state of New Jersey is getting ready to reach its highest rate of infections in the country after New York. I only go out to bring the garbage cans to the curb and get the mail and cartons of supplies I ordered. I disinfect everything and use gloves. Masks aren't necessary as no one is around. I hope I'm not missing anything. I wanted to go to someplace alone to shoot pictures. But I'm hesitant.
https://www.nj.com/coronavirus/2020/04/these-charts-and-map-show-how-coronavirus-pandemic-is-spreading-across-nj-saturday-april-4-2020.html?utm_source=subtext&utm_medium=sms&utm_campaign=coronavirus
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If you watched the conference, you would have heard him say that they were tested and all were negative. I don't know many people getting together in groups. The streets are empty and people are moving around in ones unless they're with family members. Give people some credit or are you just saying all this for political reasons?
Here is an article from the Atlantic about social distancing and how serious people are taking it.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/03/social-distancing-culture/609019/
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This was so much more then just embarrassment. What many on the left don't seem to understand is that he put it out there for everyone to read that 1/11 of our naval strength is now compromised by this virus.
Even if it was, you don't announce it out to your enemies because they may not know it, and even if they have an idea there are always doubts on intelligence. Now there are no doubts, which creates an opening to take advantage of.
Regardless if you believe China's numbers or not, they were the first to get this and will more then likely be the first to recover from it. This gives them a great strategic advantage militarily already. They know this, and anyone who does not think they will try and take advantage here has been living under a rock for the last 10 years.
The captain's irresponsible handling of the situation on board only makes it a better situation for China to take advantage of.
This was nothing but an embarrassment, and even the guy who fired him said that he had no particular evidence that Crozier leaked the letter. His complaint was that Crozier sent the letter to a number of people in the military and Defense Department, and it may well have been one of them who leaked it. Crozier apparently did what he did because he was facing what he considered to be a desperate situation and he wasn't getting any serious attention from the DOD or his immediate superior. Strictly following the chain of command means that you go up to one guy to make the decision whether to pass the letter on -- the rear admiral who was in charge of the fleet of which Crozier's ship was a part. If he delays, or isn't informed, the virus continues to spread. So, Crozier went outside the chain of command.
China's no threat. Nobody's much of a threat anymore, except the U.S. What are the Chinese going to do, invade Japan? Sink an aircraft carrier? The reason why Iran wants nukes is because those nations with nukes are pretty much immune from invasion; that includes the US and anyone under the US umbrella. Of all the nations on earth, I only know one that routinely projects military power overseas. Guess who that is?
I served in the military, I covered the military in Iraq as a reporter, and I also hung out with both enlisted and officer veterans of the Israeli military. If Crozier had been in the Israeli military, he probably would have been promoted, because Israeli combat forces focus on getting things done, not being subservient to pencil-pushers further up the line.
Crozier's firing is a disgrace, and a large number of former DOD officials and military officers are saying so, especially in light of Trump's reversal of a military court that found a Navy SEAL guilty of war crimes, based on his own platoon's testimony. But that's Trump's military: a war criminal walks, a guy trying to save his mens' lives gets fired.
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This was nothing but an embarrassment, and even the guy who fired him said that he had no particular evidence that Crozier leaked the letter. His complaint was that Crozier sent the letter to a number of people in the military and Defense Department, and it may well have been one of them who leaked it. Crozier apparently did what he did because he was facing what he considered to be a desperate situation and he wasn't getting any serious attention from the DOD or his immediate superior. Strictly following the chain of command means that you go up to one guy to make the decision whether to pass the letter on -- the rear admiral who was in charge of the fleet of which Crozier's ship was a part. If he delays, or isn't informed, the virus continues to spread. So, Crozier went outside the chain of command.
China's no threat. Nobody's much of a threat anymore, except the U.S. What are the Chinese going to do, invade Japan? Sink an aircraft carrier? The reason why Iran wants nukes is because those nations with nukes are pretty much immune from invasion; that includes the US and anyone under the US umbrella. Of all the nations on earth, I only know one that routinely projects military power overseas. Guess who that is?
I served in the military, I covered the military in Iraq as a reporter, and I also hung out with both enlisted and officer veterans of the Israeli military. If Crozier had been in the Israeli military, he probably would have been promoted, because Israeli combat forces focus on getting things done, not being subservient to pencil-pushers further up the line.
Crozier's firing is a disgrace, and a large number of former DOD officials and military officers are saying so, especially in light of Trump's reversal of a military court that found a Navy SEAL guilty of war crimes, based on his own platoon's testimony. But that's Trump's military: a war criminal walks, a guy trying to save his mens' lives gets fired.
John, you're looking at this through Chamberlain's glasses. Nobody is a threat anymore? Just because they have nuclear weapons? Eventually, someone is going to break that rule. I would rather delay it as long as possible.
China will surely try and take advantage of this; that is what they do. Look at how they militarized the South China Sea when we stopped paying attention during the Obama years, something we have almost no avenue to reverse.
They will use this to their advantage, period. And now that they know 1/11 of our navy is no longer active, they have an even higher incentive to take advantage of the fact that they will be the first to recover.
I would be willing to bet, that prior to plans being changed due to this virus, Xi had in his master plan a military take over of Taiwan just to prove it's part of China. I am sure they will continue to try and increase their borders, regardless of what we think in the west.
Fact is, regardless if he intended to leak this, his actions lead to it. He sent out an email to every friend that he had who was a senior officer through a non-secure server, what did he think would happen. He compromised our naval perception, plane and simple, and deserved to be fired over it.
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Do you know why it is called the Spanish Flu? It is not because it originated in Spain nor because Spain was hardest hit. It's because Spain was not in WWI and could freely write about the pandemic. (Yes, I realize you probably know this; I am writing it for others who dont.)
Every other country in the war prevented their press from writing about it since they knew it would give their enemy an incentive to mount an attack. It's the same situation here.
Although China certainly will not think to invade us, they will consider trying to capture larger parts of the sea and increase their land borders, like they have been doing for the last 60 years. Reversing this, since they themselves have nuclear weapons, will be very difficult if not impossible.
Deterring them from doing so in the first place is the only reasonable course of action without possibly sparking a hot war. Blatantly broadcasting that 1/11 of our fleet is out of service was irresponsible to say the least.
PS, I just ran this by a friend who was in the Navy. His take was that he would have liked to have him as a CO since he obviously cares about his people. Regardless though he did break OPSEC and did put his crew in danger by doing so. According to him, although disappointing, given the respect he had from his crew, it was an appropriate action. He did feel part of this was due to someone's ego at the Pentagon, but none the less, he broke OPSEC.
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It's a fuckin' disgrace.
Amongst many others; just one more idiotic signal from on high. What did you guys ever do to deserve this? Oh, yes, voting...
P.S.
Just got a quick screen ad. For Russian Ladies. Cool. Michael must be rolling in his metaphorical grave.
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Harry Truman: "The buck stops here."
Donald Trump: "I am not responsible in any way."
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Amongst many others; just one more idiotic signal from on high. What did you guys ever do to deserve this? Oh, yes, voting...
P.S.
Just got a quick screen ad. For Russian Ladies. Cool. Michael must be rolling in his metaphorical grave.
Really? You get Russian ladies? All I get is stuff like guaranteed methods for old people to stand up straight.
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I may get in trouble for posting this, but I want everybody to know how desperate things are getting in some parts of the U.S.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0PBg_3iVBw
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He might be safe...great...but it's the message he is sending out to millions of people that standing side by side with each other is OK.
What harm would there be if everyone was 6' apart...I can see a very positive message with it...but tell me what harm is there?
If you watch they try for the most part, but they are people and sometimes it easy to forget. Things happen, people move, questions get asked of one person and then to another in almost the same breath. They cross paths etc. They are not programed robots. Is there any harm in trying, of course not. Do human beings sometimes have a hard time breaking decades of social interaction memory. of course they do. I think its a really petty snipe if you ask me.
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Here is an article from the Atlantic about social distancing and how serious people are taking it.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/03/social-distancing-culture/609019/
That writer did not use a broad brush, he used a 24" paint roller.
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This was nothing but an embarrassment, and even the guy who fired him said that he had no particular evidence that Crozier leaked the letter. His complaint was that Crozier sent the letter to a number of people in the military and Defense Department, and it may well have been one of them who leaked it. Crozier apparently did what he did because he was facing what he considered to be a desperate situation and he wasn't getting any serious attention from the DOD or his immediate superior. Strictly following the chain of command means that you go up to one guy to make the decision whether to pass the letter on -- the rear admiral who was in charge of the fleet of which Crozier's ship was a part. If he delays, or isn't informed, the virus continues to spread. So, Crozier went outside the chain of command.
China's no threat. Nobody's much of a threat anymore, except the U.S. What are the Chinese going to do, invade Japan? Sink an aircraft carrier? The reason why Iran wants nukes is because those nations with nukes are pretty much immune from invasion; that includes the US and anyone under the US umbrella. Of all the nations on earth, I only know one that routinely projects military power overseas. Guess who that is?
I served in the military, I covered the military in Iraq as a reporter, and I also hung out with both enlisted and officer veterans of the Israeli military. If Crozier had been in the Israeli military, he probably would have been promoted, because Israeli combat forces focus on getting things done, not being subservient to pencil-pushers further up the line.
Crozier's firing is a disgrace, and a large number of former DOD officials and military officers are saying so, especially in light of Trump's reversal of a military court that found a Navy SEAL guilty of war crimes, based on his own platoon's testimony. But that's Trump's military: a war criminal walks, a guy trying to save his mens' lives gets fired.
I'll let my friend, retired and decorated ( and heavily injured) Navy Seal give you his view.
This capt was apparently very popular with his crew which is good, but to the extreme could be the result of poor leadership. They’re not supposed to like you, only respect you enough to follow you down range. Which means being competent. So jury out in my mind on leadership.
It appears he didn’t like the response he got from his higher ups. He was probably caught up in the moment and worried about his crew and very uncharacteristically acted impulsively. This in my mind led to his undoing.
He blew by the chain of command at light speed. There was an admiral, the battlegroup commander, on his vessel. Why he didn’t sit down and talk it through with him is a mystery. Or he tried and didn’t like what he heard. We don’t know which.
But in the end he had to know what would happen when he penned that email and CC’d who he did. He had to know he’d be relieved with cause. NO way around that. So he made a choice.
But here’s what gets me. That battle group, especially considering the recent launches from N. Korea, HAD to remain at peak readiness no matter what. My guess is the battle group, maybe not his ship the carrier.. but one of the frigates.. had to have the new ballistic missile interception systems.. critical considering N. Korea. His action took the battle group off-line and endangered the entire country.
The CINCPAC might have had another battle group steaming (Navy term) his way to replace him, but it could have been a week away. Considering few people in the age group of the bulk of that crew was in danger of dying from the virus.. he made a very poor decision. Even if they were going to die, he made a poor decision because each sailor on that ship is expected to be expendable if it protects out country.
Probably not a popular view, but I’m one of the few with actual command experience and I know what it means.
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Oh my Bernard, you can’t even remember your own words, your illness must be more pronounced that I originally thought. Let’s review shall we? You have told us how you believe Trumps actions will cause more death and more damage to the economy. How do you know the FUTURE Bernard? Sheesh, you may be beyond help.
I love this you say “ should have done” like you again know the future. Your problem is that you have not made any “relevant points”. 60 percent of Americans find Trump is doing a good job, last time I looked.
You don’t understand our system of government, And you don’t understand our people. All you understand is your hate for a Trump. It’s kind of sad. What’s sadder is you even told Joe, and a good swath of America by extension they we complicit in the death of scores of Americans by supporting their President. That’s pretty sick Bernard. In fact it’s disgusting.
You spend multiple posts denigrating Americans because they don’t share your hatred of Trump, yet your own country is a mess. You say Trump did the same but the reality is just the opposite. His administration was truthful with the American people about the dangers of this virus from day one. Everyone had the information they needed to make informed decisions. He acted within the scope of his legal ability, and at times offered hope the results might not be as bad as feared. He spend massive amounts of time speaking with the Governors of every State and him and his team of experts offered them advice and information.
Ok, you don’t like...BFD. You don’t get a vote .
I hope you find a cure for your sickness.
I see I see, thanks for the kind explanation, now..
- unfortunately the numbers already are disastrous in the US. My comments are about the present and the past. And... do you really think that, at the current pace of spreading (32,000 new cases and 1200 new casualties yesterday), it’s not going to get much worse?
- I have been very critical about the way Japan is (not) acting although the numbers are very good while you show blind support although they are disastrous in the US
- I am absolutely not denigrating Americans, you are by extrapolating your own folly to your compatriotes. Fortunately a large majority of Americans share my views that Trump’s words and delayed action is irresponsible and falls totally short of what a leader such as the President of the US should have been doing
- I don’t believe that you know what Trump discussed with governors in what timing, that’s not public information. And I don’t know either. But what you know like I do is that Trump continued for far too long to publicly downplay the seriousness of the pandemic. Only are you not willing to acknowledge this. This has nothing to do with understanding the political system of the US and you know it full well. But who knows, he was maybe telling to the public « don’t worry, the corona is not a US problem » and encouraging governors privately to take strong measures? According to you why would he have acted this way?
- I do of course acknowledge that Trump is acting now. Again my point is that he should have acted the way he is currently acting at least two weeks earlier (as a follower) or 3 weeks earlier (as a leader). Perfectly clear information was available in the scientific community in the US. Instead he took a conscious decision to downplay the crisis to faveur the economy.
What you should frankly ask yourself now is what damage Trump is going to do next and whether your attitude is responsible.
Cheers,
Bernard
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If you watch they try for the most part, but they are people and sometimes it easy to forget. Things happen, people move, questions get asked of one person and then to another in almost the same breath. They cross paths etc. They are not programed robots. Is there any harm in trying, of course not. Do human beings sometimes have a hard time breaking decades of social interaction memory. of course they do. I think its a really petty snipe if you ask me.
We have a daily update here in British Columbia and there is no problems with decades of brain matter getting in the way. Purposeful separation and distance management. Where there is a will, there is a way.
Your excuses sound more like those teenage kids that got interviewed as to why they are not separated. "It's too hard to talk", "we forget", "I don't know"
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That writer did not use a broad brush, he used a 24" paint roller.
Just lots of different instances...some directly influenced by what Trump says...so it does matter what he says and does.
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Just lots of different instances...some directly influenced by what Trump says...so it does matter what he says and does.
Oh please, what a crappy hit piece The writer wants to blame Reps for dising the guidelines. I wonder what the political spectrum of the Spring Breakers in Forida was? You think it was a republicain convention down there? Can we even know to trust the writer is telling the truth?
You need to find better material.
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We have a daily update here in British Columbia and there is no problems with decades of brain matter getting in the way. Purposeful separation and distance management. Where there is a will, there is a way.
Your excuses sound more like those teenage kids that got interviewed as to why they are not separated. "It's too hard to talk", "we forget", "I don't know"
Good for you and BC.
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Good for you and BC.
It's not about me or you it's about your leader and the image he portrays. Surely put down those biased eyes for once and take a clear view. A person...President...standing there side by side with others asking the general public to social isolate at least 6 feet apart...what king of f'ing message is that sending.
You sure must love your pres to make such loyal excuse after excuse without any substance.
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Have they begun to screen the population for SARS-CoV-2 antibodies using a blood test in The Netherlands? It strikes me that the country's population is small enough that massive testing is achievable at a modest cost. I know that researchers at Erasmus Univ had done the preliminary work that could be used for validation. I believe there are some European companies that may be manufacturing these tests. We only have ONE approved for use in the US. Lots of Asian companies have developed them but not validated according to a defined standard.
There is still a lack of testing capability, so tests are reserved for medical personnel. But we are getting closer to the moment where the number of serum tests will be ramped up.
In a Friday-evening talkshow, Hanneke Schuitemaker, Professor at the Leiden University and the head of Janssen Viral Vaccines branch of Johnson and Johnson, told that a promising vaccine candidate is being developed and tested. But it is not a done deal yet, and there is no guarantee that we'll soon have a vaccine. There are some 40 vaccine initiatives in the world and something like 10% of those will succeed. They started their work on the virus in January as soon as the genetic code was published by the Chinese, and they made 10 designs based on that, and these have been tested in animals. In the beginning of September 2020 they will start testing this in humans, which is a month earlier than they initially anticipated because they have been "crunching" the procedures, trying to optimize the critical path.
They are already ramping up production, thanks to the financial commitment of the USA, not yet knowing whether the vaccine will be a success. But when it turns out to be a success, then they will already have an initial amount of stock available early next year. The vaccine will be made available as a not-for-profit product during the attempts to get a grip on the worldwide outbreak (the "emergency use application" period).
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It's not about me or you it's about your leader and the image he portrays. Surely put down those biased eyes for once and take a clear view. A person...President...standing there side by side with others asking the general public to social isolate at least 6 feet apart...what king of f'ing message is that sending.
You sure must love your pres to make such loyal excuse after excuse without any substance.
You know I just watched a number of BC press conferences. Wow, one or 2 people, 30 to 60 mins. Minimal interaction with the press. So we can't really judge how well your vaunted leaders would do in the same enviorment.
But lets ask you this question. Do you stand side by side in your home with your family or do you practice social distancing? Trump is in his house, with his govenment family. They are trusted and safe. Aside from some picture that you think is telling people its ok not to social distance in a public setting when the words being spoken in a PRIVATE ONE suggest the distanceing action.
Thinking people understand and like I said eariler its a silly nitpick. But that all you guys really have is a silly nitpick, and its all you do.
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You know I just watched a number of BC press conferences. Wow, one or 2 people, 30 to 60 mins. Minimal interaction with the press. So we can't really judge how well your vaunted leaders would do in the same enviorment.
But lets ask you this question. Do you stand side by side in your home with your family or do you practice social distancing? Trump is in his house, with his govenment family. They are trusted and safe. Aside from some picture that you think is telling people its ok not to social distance in a public setting when the words being spoken in a PRIVATE ONE suggest the distanceing action.
Thinking people understand and like I said eariler its a silly nitpick. But that all you guys really have is a silly nitpick, and its all you do.
I've given you plenty of reasons why he should practice what he preaches and examples from a magazine of people still not practicing. Fine. Now tell me one good reason why he should not come onto the podium and lead by example...just one good reason. Think hard.
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Trump is in his house, with his govenment family. They are trusted and safe. Aside from some picture that you think is telling people its ok not to social distance in a public setting when the words being spoken in a PRIVATE ONE suggest the distanceing action.
Thinking people understand and like I said eariler its a silly nitpick. But that all you guys really have is a silly nitpick, and its all you do.
28,100 new cases in the US today, more than a third of the new cases on the planet. More confirmed cases than Italy and Spain combined.
Beam me up Scotty.
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Just more Trump bashing that's been going on for four years. It's easy to Monday morning quarterback after you know what happened. Everyone's a genius after the fact with 20/20 hindsight. Meanwhile Spain, Italy, Great Britain are worse in death per capita than the US and Germany is very close. Why hasn't your social medical care worked? Why haven't your leaders been more effective? Why didn't you have enough ventilators? Why are you infatuated with knocking America instead of straightening out your own messes?
When are you people going to tell us what we have to do going forward? I haven't heard any constructive recommendations for the future because you might make a mistake in what you have to offer, and it's easy to take pot shots at others. What are you going to do when you're still out of a job in three months? What is your country going to do with 10% unemployment or worse? How will you deal with inflation? How will you plan for another bout next year? And finally, what will you complain about if Trump isn't president in January?
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I've given you plenty of reasons why he should practice what he preaches and examples from a magazine of people still not practicing. Fine. Now tell me one good reason why he should not come onto the podium and lead by example...just one good reason. Think hard.
You mean lead by example like your bigoted Canadian leader who three times got dressed up in black paint?
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I see I see, thanks for the kind explanation, now..
- unfortunately the numbers already are disastrous in the US. My comments are about the present and the past.
Speak the truth for once Bernard. You proclaim to see the future, and we have it in print.
And... do you really think that, at the current pace of spreading (32,000 new cases and 1200 new casualties yesterday), it’s not going to get much worse?
Of courses its going to get worse. Whats your point? Unless you have the ability to go back in time change the past and replay history you will have no idea what a different possible outcome might be. All the rest is just make believe on your part.
- I have been very critical about the way Japan is (not) acting although the numbers are very good while you show blind support although they are disastrous in the US
Well, all we have to go on here are your posts to this forum about Japans handling of the crisis, and unless I'm mistaken your only comment about the situation in Japan came after I pointed it out. If you have otherer posts that back up your claim, provide them. I have not seen them in your post history.
-I am absolutely not denigrating Americans, you are by extrapolating your own folly to your compatriotes. Fortunately a large majority of Americans share my views that Trump’s words and delayed action is irresponsible and falls totally short of what a leader such as the President of the US should have been doing
That's an utter falsehood Benard. Lets review your words...
You don't need to answer me, it's really between you and your conscience. But make no mistake, the non/delayed actions of Trump will have resulted int he death of thousand of people. And you, keeping supporting him, share some responsibility in those deaths.
Your words are despicable. They reek. You do in fact denigrate Americans, starting with Joe and including all people who support Trump. You should be utterly ashamed.
- I don’t believe that you know what Trump discussed with governors in what timing, that’s not public information. And I don’t know either. But what you know like I do is that Trump continued for far too long to publicly downplay the seriousness of the pandemic. Only are you not willing to acknowledge this. This has nothing to do with understanding the political system of the US and you know it full well. But who knows, he was maybe telling to the public « don’t worry, the corona is not a US problem »
and encouraging governirs privately to take strong measures? According to you why would he have acted this way?
What we do know is what the govenors had to say about their conservsations wit Trump, the most visable being Cuomo of New York. He praised Trump for his response for the most part, despite some disagreements. Trump and his TEAM OF EXPERTS gave factual information at every press availability about the nature of the virus and hte unfolding crisis. Nothing was withheld from the American people. No expert had to change their views because of Trump. They were and still are free to speak their minds. That destoys your silly claim that Trump was trying to downplay the problem. Did he express hope things might not get as bad as predicted, of course. Thats what leaders also do.
- I do of course acknowledge that Trump is acting now. Again my point is that he should have acted the way he is currently acting at least two weeks earlier (as a follower) or 3 weeks earlier (as a leader). Perfectly clear information was available in the scientific community in the US. Instead he took a conscious devision to downplay the crisis to faveur the economy.
Your silly claim that he tried to downplay the crisis has been debunked. Time for you to take that ball and run along home. The economy is a vaild concern, not only to Trump but to every American. You don't throw aways peoples livelyhood, their bank balances, their businesses and perhaps even their homes without careful consideration.
And lets be clear here. You stated Trump needed to do a complete lockdown of the country. That was your claim of the action he had delayed. Your ignorance of how the USA works, forced you to try and backpedal to try and save face. What you claimed Trump should have done was impossible.
What you should frankly ask yourself now is what damage Trump is going to do next and whether your attitude is responsible.
Cheers,
Bernard
What you might want to be asking yourself is why you think its ok to suggest that Americans ( and forum members) who support Trump are in part responsible for covid-19 deaths in America. And then perhaps ask yourself how you come back from such a horrible statement.
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You mean lead by example like your bigoted Canadian leader who three times got dressed up in black paint?
Dressing up in black paint was stupid, but it didn't kill any one. Unlike denying early C19 warnings and delaying lock downs.
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Just more Trump bashing that's been going on for four years. It's easy to Monday morning quarterback after you know what happened. Everyone's a genius after the fact with 20/20 hindsight. Meanwhile Spain, Italy, Great Britain are worse in death per capita than the US and Germany is very close. Why hasn't your social medical care worked? Why haven't your leaders been more effective? Why didn't you have enough ventilators? Why are you infatuated with knocking America instead of straightening out your own messes?
When are you people going to tell us what we have to do going forward? I haven't heard any constructive recommendations for the future because you might make a mistake in what you have to offer, and it's easy to take pot shots at others. What are you going to do when you're still out of a job in three months? What is your country going to do with 10% unemployment or worse? How will you deal with inflation? How will you plan for another bout next year? And finally, what will you complain about if Trump isn't president in January?
Like in the US, the leaders in Europe are very heavily criticized by a large majority of the population for their lack of preparation and, above all, for their delayed reaction.
But you are right... there are probably blind idiots there who keep supporting them at any cost regardless of how screamingly obvious their shortcoming are.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I've given you plenty of reasons why he should practice what he preaches and examples from a magazine of people still not practicing. Fine. Now tell me one good reason why he should not come onto the podium and lead by example...just one good reason. Think hard.
I've given you plenty. You just refuse to accept them. So be it.
But lets talk aobut your magazine and how that hit piece works by using another illustration. The premise of that article is that Republicans are bad and democrats are good because they are following the rules. The author found a couple of examples, which we dont know are true or not,
and proceeds to run his paint roller to reach his desired conclusion.
Now lets suppose we want to use the authors tactics and smear the Dems. We could point out that in the US, many cities with the largest impact of the virus and the most cases are Democratic run and based cites. An official of the city even suggested people go out ant part as the virus was starting to spread. So, by extention Deomcrats are bad and Rebublicans are doing a better job of follwing the rules.
Like I said, you need to find better material.
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You mean lead by example like your bigoted Canadian leader who three times got dressed up in black paint?
Yup...he took full responsibility for those actions. No denials. Now where to start with your leader in chief. Let's look at hiring hookers...or maybe grabbing snatches. Man you can open up a can of worms and a flock of robins will descend upon you.
Trudeau, in the time of need has stepped up and provided desperately needed leadership to the point outspoken opposition are crediting him. He's got all levels of government in lock step...including the opposition that just lost a close election.
Now let's at the leadership in the Un-United states of the Americas.
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Dressing up in black paint was stupid, but it didn't kill any one. Unlike denying early C19 warnings and delaying lock downs.
Why do you keep repeating the same old lies. Nothing was denied and Trump had ZERO ability to lock any STATE down.
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I've given you plenty. You just refuse to accept them. So be it.
But lets talk aobut your magazine and how that hit piece works by using another illustration. The premise of that article is that Republicans are bad and democrats are good because they are following the rules. The author found a couple of examples, which we dont know are true or not,
and proceeds to run his paint roller to reach his desired conclusion.
Now lets suppose we want to use the authors tactics and smear the Dems. We could point out that in the US, many cities with the largest impact of the virus and the most cases are Democratic run and based cites. An official of the city even suggested people go out ant part as the virus was starting to spread. So, by extention Deomcrats are bad and Rebublicans are doing a better job of follwing the rules.
Like I said, you need to find better material.
Please give me a good reason why Trump does not practice what he preaches to his people. Just one...but it better be good. Think hard.
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Yup...he took full responsibility for those actions. No denials. Now where to start with your leader in chief. Let's look at hiring hookers...or maybe grabbing snatches. Man you can open up a can of worms and a flock of robins will descend upon you.
Trudeau, in the time of need has stepped up and provided desperately needed leadership to the point outspoken opposition are crediting him. He's got all levels of government in lock step...including the opposition that just lost a close election.
Now let's at the leadership in the Un-United states of the Americas.
At least you got one thing right...STATES.
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Please give me a good reason why Trump does not practice what he preaches to his people. Just one...but it better be good. Think hard.
I've given you plenty, is you reading ability failing you.
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Dressing up in black paint was stupid, but it didn't kill any one. Unlike denying early C19 warnings and delaying lock downs.
Enough with the politics. Trump bashing has gone on for four years. We're tired of it. He's trying to save America after the country was dealt a bad hand. The president wasn't going to shut down America any more than a governor shut down their state. I just learned that 7 people in my 55+ community in NJ have Covid and one guy died.
You guys in Canada and around the world better hope that Trump does a good job pulling us out of this mess. Because if we go down, so do you. All my statements about how America was going to pull back because we can't afford it will be sped up. Americans will ask why we're helping Europe and the rest of the world militarily when we're really broke. If you think Trump is isolationist, you haven't seen anything yet. Regardless of who's president in January, the drumbeat from Americans to keep our money home and retrench will be paramount.
Watch what you pray for.
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What you might want to be asking yourself is why you think its ok to suggest that Americans ( and forum members) who support Trump are in part responsible for covid-19 deaths in America. And then perhaps ask yourself how you come back from such a horrible statement.
This may not be a popular thing to say, but the truth is that the people who put Trump in office are indeed indirectly responsible for the additional casualties resulting from his delayed actions. That’s about 25% of Americans.
And it was unfortunately not very hard to predict that things would get down to something like this.
I still feel horribly sorry for this situation and would of course have preferred that Trump’s incompetence and its impacts would not have had to be made visible this way.
But you have a choice now. Look at reality or keep denying it. Your reactions till date are not encouraging but as a free man you have the ability to change your mind every second. I sincerely hope that you reconsider. Your grand children may ask you the question one day.
As for your other comments their lack of honesty and objectivity is pretty self explanatory. And you pretty much agree with me that a conscious decision was made to favor economy over the life of people. That may be where our views differ.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Please give me a good reason why Trump does not practice what he preaches to his people. Just one...but it better be good. Think hard.
Who cares what you think?
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This may not be a popular thing to say, but the truth is that the people who put Trump in office are indeed indirectly responsible for the additional casualties resulting from his delayed actions. That’s about 25% of Americans.
And it was unfortunately not very hard to predict that things would get down to something like this.
I still feel horribly sorry for this situation and would of course have preferred that Trump’s incompetence and its impacts would not have had to be made visible this way.
But you have a choice now. Look at reality or keep denying it. Your reactions till date are not encouraging but as a free man you have the ability to change your mind every second. I sincerely hope that you reconsider. Your grand children may ask you the question one day.
As for your other comments their lack of honesty and objectivity is pretty self explanatory. And you pretty much agree with me that a conscious decision was made to favor economy over the life of people. That may be where our views differ.
Cheers,
Bernard
Bernard you shoud just quit being so untruthful and you owe this forum an apology.
You have a choice now. Make your apology. You have one chance. Make the best of it.
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Like in the US, the leaders in Europe are very heavily criticized by a large majority of the population for their lack of preparation and, above all, for their delayed reaction.
But you are right... there are probably blind idiots there who keep supporting them at any cost regardless of how screamingly obvious their shortcoming are.
Cheers,
Bernard
60% approval rating last I checked. I guess we are the land of the blind.
Bernard, would you come be our king and save us?
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Who cares what you think?
Alan...obviously you do enough to read my posts and to reply.
Childish response of taking the ball home when things get tough.
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This may not be a popular thing to say, but the truth is that the people who put Trump in office are indeed indirectly responsible for the additional casualties resulting from his delayed actions. That’s about 25% of Americans.
And it was unfortunately not very hard to predict that things would get down to something like this.
I still feel horribly sorry for this situation and would of course have preferred that Trump’s incompetence and its impacts would not have had to be made visible this way.
But you have a choice now. Look at reality or keep denying it. Your reactions till date are not encouraging but as a free man you have the ability to change your mind every second. I sincerely hope that you reconsider. Your grand children may ask you the question one day.
As for your other comments their lack of honesty and objectivity is pretty self explanatory. And you pretty much agree with me that a conscious decision was made to favor economy over the life of people. That may be where our views differ.
Cheers,
Bernard
Do you feel the same way about the voters in Great Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain who have the same virus and death rate or worse? Or do you only have time to insult Americans? Why is Abe doing nothing in your adopted country of Japan? How can you expose yourself and your family to such incompetence? Don't you care about your family?
Maybe you ought to pay attention to your own problems instead of spending time heaping your bile on other people.
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This may not be a popular thing to say, but the truth is that the people who put Trump in office are indeed indirectly responsible for the additional casualties resulting from his delayed actions. That’s about 25% of Americans.
And it was unfortunately not very hard to predict that things would get down to something like this.
I still feel horribly sorry for this situation and would of course have preferred that Trump’s incompetence and its impacts would not have had to be made visible this way.
But you have a choice now. Look at reality or keep denying it. Your reactions till date are not encouraging but as a free man you have the ability to change your mind every second. I sincerely hope that you reconsider. Your grand children may ask you the question one day.
As for your other comments their lack of honesty and objectivity is pretty self explanatory. And you pretty much agree with me that a conscious decision was made to favor economy over the life of people. That may be where our views differ.
Cheers,
Bernard
25% of Americans? I think you're low balling it a bit. There are certainly many more of us incredulous Trump supporting killers here than you think. Even with the electoral college, you need more then 25% support to win.
I guess you did not take my advice to study USA civics. I am sure there is an online class somewhere you can sign up for.
LOL.
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A piece for Joe...
I'm not for or against the message but I thought it would stike a chord for Joe.
Threading the Needle Between Public and Economic Health
https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2020/04/threading_the_needle_between_public_and_economic_health_.html
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Do you feel the same way about the voters in Great Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain who have the same virus and death rate or worse? Or do you only have time to insult Americans? Why is Abe doing nothing in your adopted country of Japan? How can you expose yourself and your family to such incompetence? Don't you care about your family?
Maybe you ought to pay attention to your own problems instead of spending time heaping your bile on other people.
Not at all, I fully share your views.
But it’s much worse with Trump and Abe because both leaders had the European example right in front of their nose and still kept downplaying the risk for their own populations.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Alan...obviously you do enough to read my posts and to reply.
Childish response of taking the ball home when things get tough.
No one's taking the ball home. This is my thread and I'm keeping it open. If you want to keep dumping your bile, go right ahead. But maybe you should ask yourself why would Canadian voters like yourself elect a bigot for their leader? Maybe your focus on Trump helps you forget your own voting record and shortcomings. You can fool yourself into believing you're a better person.
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Why do you keep repeating the same old lies. Nothing was denied and Trump had ZERO ability to lock any STATE down.
Well, you must be reading different news than me.
Here are some of Trump's most blatant comments and lies on coronavirus:
On Jan. 22: “We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China.”
On Feb. 2: “We pretty much shut it down coming in from China. It’s going to be fine.”
On Feb. 24: “The Coronavirus is very much under control in the USA… Stock Market starting to look very good to me!”
On Feb 25, Trump promised that a vaccine would be available soon. “Now they have it, they have studied it, they know very much, in fact, we’re very close to a vaccine,”
On Feb. 26: “We’re going very substantially down, not up.”
On Feb. 27: “One day it’s like a miracle, it will disappear.”
On Feb 28, Trump said that coronavirus will “disappear” like a “miracle”
On March 4, Trump contradicted public health experts’ estimates of the death rate for Covid-19 — based on a “hunch.”
On the same day, Trump also compared coronavirus with the flu and he mentioned that the coronavirus isn’t as serious of a threat to public health as Influenza.
On March 6: “I think we’re doing a really good job in this country at keeping it down… a tremendous job at keeping it down.”
On March 7, Trump said that anyone who wants a test for Covid-19 can get one. (maybe in the future, but not in February or March.)
On March 10: “It will go away. Just stay calm. It will go away.”
Today, he mentioned the possibility of opening churches for Palm Sunday and Easter Sunday services. What a great idea!
Trump has repeatedly claimed that the US was the most prepared country in the world. Yeah, with most infections in the world.
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25% of Americans? I think you're low balling it a bit. There are certainly many more of us incredulous Trump supporting killers here that you think. Even with the electoral college, you need more then 25% support to win.
I guess you did not take my advice to study USA civics. I am sure there is an online class somewhere you can sign up for.
LOL.
No, you need a majority of voters.
Lol.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Bernard you shoud just quit being so untruthful and you owe this forum an apology.
You have a choice now. Make your apology. You have one chance. Make the best of it.
How am I untruthful?
On Jan. 22: “We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China.”
On Feb. 2: “We pretty much shut it down coming in from China. It’s going to be fine.”
On Feb. 24: “The Coronavirus is very much under control in the USA… Stock Market starting to look very good to me!”
On Feb 25, Trump promised that a vaccine would be available soon. “Now they have it, they have studied it, they know very much, in fact, we’re very close to a vaccine,”
On Feb. 26: “We’re going very substantially down, not up.”
On Feb. 27: “One day it’s like a miracle, it will disappear.”
On Feb 28, Trump said that coronavirus will “disappear” like a “miracle”
On March 4, Trump contradicted public health experts’ estimates of the death rate for Covid-19 — based on a “hunch.”
On the same day, Trump also compared coronavirus with the flu and he mentioned that the coronavirus isn’t as serious of a threat to public health as Influenza.
On March 6: “I think we’re doing a really good job in this country at keeping it down… a tremendous job at keeping it down.”
On March 7, Trump said that anyone who wants a test for Covid-19 can get one. (maybe in the future, but not in February or March.)
On March 10: “It will go away. Just stay calm. It will go away.”
How is this not downplaying the risk for American citizens? How is this not awfully wrong? How has this not delayed awareness and action? How has this not killed people?
The duty of apology is yours. Not to me, to your fellow countrymen.
Cheers,
Bernard
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A piece for Joe...
I'm not for or against the message but I thought it would stike a chord for Joe.
Threading the Needle Between Public and Economic Health
https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2020/04/threading_the_needle_between_public_and_economic_health_.html
Thanks Craig,
I just skimmed it and it looks interesting. What is really bogging me down here is that everyone is treating this as a binary option, either we fully lock down or not. I saw the article talks about an in between method that I think needs to be implemented real soon or chaos will break out.
If we had shut down any other industry then the restaurant industry I would say we have a little more time and can relax a bit more. But those in the service industry have been out of a job for 3 weeks now, and, being a former restaurant employee, I can tell you 60+% of those people will be out of money in another week, two max. They are not known to be the most understanding of people, and I know for a fact they will start loosing their shit soon.
It is going to happen.
But it just annoys me the liberal elites are pushing for this total lockdown and not considering a in between method. Recently other NYC photographers I know (not on here) started making fun of the governor of OK for him saying it does not make sense for his entire state to lockdown. They thought they know best, being NYC elitists, yet completely ignored it is planting season, which follows a strict schedule especially when you need to get two harvests from your land a year. It is shit like this that is annoying the hell out of me.
We can lock down everyone. We need plans that take into account geography and ages, or it is not going to work because people will just simply get back to work.
If I was a farmer in the mid-west this time of year, I would give a rats ass what anyone had to say about staying inside. I would have plants I need to get into the ground right now, and anyone who says otherwise can screw themselves. This is the mentality we will be dealing with, especially as bank accounts of lower income people start to run dry.
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No, you need a majority of voters.
Lol.
Cheers,
Bernard
A majority of electoral voters.
See, if only you signed up for an online USA civic class like I recommended, I would not have had to correct you.
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No one's taking the ball home. This is my thread and I'm keeping it open. If you want to keep dumping your bile, go right ahead. But maybe you should ask yourself why would Canadian voters like yourself elect a bigot for their leader? Maybe your focus on Trump helps you forget your own voting record and shortcomings. You can fool yourself into believing you're a better person.
You seriously comparing Trump to Trudeau. Please don't embarrass yourself.
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A majority of electoral voters.
See, if only you signed up for an online USA civic class like I recommended, I would not have had to correct you.
So enlight us, what’s your estimate of the % of the US population who voted for Trump 3 years ago?
Cheers,
Bernard
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How am I untruthful?
On Jan. 22: “We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China.”
On Feb. 2: “We pretty much shut it down coming in from China. It’s going to be fine.”
On Feb. 24: “The Coronavirus is very much under control in the USA… Stock Market starting to look very good to me!”
On Feb 25, Trump promised that a vaccine would be available soon. “Now they have it, they have studied it, they know very much, in fact, we’re very close to a vaccine,”
On Feb. 26: “We’re going very substantially down, not up.”
On Feb. 27: “One day it’s like a miracle, it will disappear.”
On Feb 28, Trump said that coronavirus will “disappear” like a “miracle”
On March 4, Trump contradicted public health experts’ estimates of the death rate for Covid-19 — based on a “hunch.”
On the same day, Trump also compared coronavirus with the flu and he mentioned that the coronavirus isn’t as serious of a threat to public health as Influenza.
On March 6: “I think we’re doing a really good job in this country at keeping it down… a tremendous job at keeping it down.”
On March 7, Trump said that anyone who wants a test for Covid-19 can get one. (maybe in the future, but not in February or March.)
On March 10: “It will go away. Just stay calm. It will go away.”
How is this not downplaying the risk for American citizens? How is this not awfully wrong? How has this not delayed awareness and action? How has this not killed people?
The duty of apology is yours. Not to me, to your fellow countrymen.
Cheers,
Bernard
Game over.
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Yesterday, US President Donald Trump has made another foolish move, calling on US manufacturer 3M to stop shipping N95 masks to Canada and other countries.
While the US is in the same boat as most countries (including Canada), interfering with the manufacturing could hurt American public more than the shortsighted mask export ban.
The one thing Trump didn't know that much of the pulp used to make N95 masks in the US comes from British Columbia in Canada. The other thing he may not know that China is now producing some 200 million masks a day and make killing exporting them to other countries who need them.
Prime Minister Justin Trudeau says “millions” of masks are expected to arrive in the next two days and his government won’t retaliate against the U.S. after the White House requested a medical device manufacturer to stop exporting N95 face masks to Canada.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/canada-to-receive-millions-of-masks-won-t-retaliate-for-u-s-ban-on-3m-exports-pm-1.4882563
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You seriously comparing Trump to Trudeau. Please don't embarrass yourself.
Right. Trudeau has much nicer hair and wears more stylish socks. He can also read.
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I see New York received 1000 ventilators from China. Maybe those commies aren't that bad after all. Oh wait...maybe the ventilators are booby trapped and will release the virus at midnight. Or maybe they are bugged and will be used to take down the Internet.
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So enlight us, what’s your estimate of the % of the US population who voted for Trump 3 years ago?
Cheers,
Bernard
Man, this is going to piss you off; I wish I could see your face when you read this!
46% for Trump to 48% for Hillary was the popular vote.
Hillary got more votes overall, but Trump won the electoral vote, which is what matters.
See, you don't know quite as much as you think you do about USA civics, and, well, one of our most esteem authors can tell you something about that!
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46% for Trump to 47% for Hillary I believe was the popular vote.
Hillary got more votes overall, I know that, but Trump won the electoral vote, which is what matters. See, you don't know quite as much as you think you do about USA civics, and, well, one of our most esteem authors can tell you something about that!
More to Bernard’s useless point, it’s not the percentage of the population that matters but those who actually used their rights as Americans to vote...and who were of voting age.
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Man, this is going to piss you off; I wish I could see your face when you read this!
46% for Trump to 48% for Hillary was the popular vote.
Hillary got more votes overall, but Trump won the electoral vote, which is what matters.
See, you don't know quite as much as you think you do about USA civics, and, well, one of our most esteem authors can tell you something about that!
I see... and what % of Americans in legal age to vote did cast a vote, meaning did participate in the election?
While you are at it, what % of Americans are in legal age to vote/have the right to vote?
Cheers,
Bernard
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I see New York received 1000 ventilators from China. Maybe those commies aren't that bad after all. Oh wait...maybe the ventilators are booby trapped and will release the virus at midnight. Or maybe they are bugged and will be used to take down the Internet.
Or maybe they feel guilty for killing people all over the world and are trying to rehab their reputation.
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More to Bernard’s useless point, it’s not the percentage of the population that matters but those who actually used their rights as Americans to vote...and who were of voting age.
That matters to whatever point you are trying to make.
But that’s not what I wrote above when I quoted 25%. I wrote that only 25% of the population voted for Trump.
Is that factually mistaken?
Cheers,
Bernard
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I see... and what % of Americans in legal age to vote did cast a vote, meaning did participate in the election?
While you are at it, what % of Americans are in legal age to vote/have the right to vote?
Cheers,
Bernard
That does not matter.
As far as I am concerned, if you're of legal age and dont vote, your opinion is meaningless. You have already told us that is what you feel by by not voting.
If you are not of legal age, I could care less about your opinion. You're a child, and don't have the life experiences to have a clue about anything. How can a 16 year, who's never fallen in love and still a virgin, never dealt with a mortgage, never had a car payment, never had to deal with life altering consequences they themselves brought onto not only themselves but others, never dealt with death repeatably, never had to plan a funeral and be the executor of an estate of a loved one, never had to watch their finances dwindle due to a recession, etc, have any clue to be able to make an informed decision?
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Or maybe they feel guilty for killing people all over the world and are trying to rehab their reputation.
Such a racist comment.
I apologize on behalf of LL to the Chinese community. Rest assured that the view expressed by Craig is only his own.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Well, you must be reading different news than me.
Here are some of Trump's most blatant comments and lies on coronavirus:
On Jan. 22: “We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China.”
On Feb. 2: “We pretty much shut it down coming in from China. It’s going to be fine.”
On Feb. 24: “The Coronavirus is very much under control in the USA… Stock Market starting to look very good to me!”
On Feb 25, Trump promised that a vaccine would be available soon. “Now they have it, they have studied it, they know very much, in fact, we’re very close to a vaccine,”
On Feb. 26: “We’re going very substantially down, not up.”
On Feb. 27: “One day it’s like a miracle, it will disappear.”
On Feb 28, Trump said that coronavirus will “disappear” like a “miracle”
On March 4, Trump contradicted public health experts’ estimates of the death rate for Covid-19 — based on a “hunch.”
On the same day, Trump also compared coronavirus with the flu and he mentioned that the coronavirus isn’t as serious of a threat to public health as Influenza.
On March 6: “I think we’re doing a really good job in this country at keeping it down… a tremendous job at keeping it down.”
On March 7, Trump said that anyone who wants a test for Covid-19 can get one. (maybe in the future, but not in February or March.)
On March 10: “It will go away. Just stay calm. It will go away.”
Today, he mentioned the possibility of opening churches for Palm Sunday and Easter Sunday services. What a great idea!
Trump has repeatedly claimed that the US was the most prepared country in the world. Yeah, with most infections in the world.
Les, Your PM acknowledge he didn't take many measures he should have. While Trump stopped some international travel to America as early as January, Trudeau didn't do it until March.
"Canada, however, didn’t take significant steps to restrict international travellers until mid-March. On Monday, Trudeau — asked whether that should have happened earlier — seemed to acknowledge that with the benefit of hindsight, more could have been done."
The point is none of us has hindsight and no one wanted to over react. Why is the focus only on Trump's lack of foretelling the future? Every leader missed things in this crisis. Frankly, a lot of what happened all around is luck. No one should count their chickens before they hatch. It's not over and could come back to haunt us again. At a minimum, we're all going to have to deal with the enormous economic costs.
https://globalnews.ca/news/6753297/coronavirus-trudeau-covid-us-cases/
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That does not matter.
As far as I am concerned, if you're of legal age and dont vote, your opinion is meaningless. You have already told us that is what you feel by by not voting.
If you are not of legal age, I could care less about your opinion. You're a child, and don't have the life experiences to have any clue about anything.
Craig accused me of insulting Americans. I answered that my grief was only about the 25% who voted for Trump.
What is the relevance to this discussion of the % of voters who voted for Trump?
The answer is... none.
Are you going to withdraw your condescending comments about my understanding of the system and apologize?
Cheers,
Bernard
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Craig accused me of insulting Americans. I answered that my grief was only about the 25% who voted for Trump.
What is the relevance to this discussion of the % of voters who voted for Trump?
The answer is... none.
Are you going to withdraw your condescending comments about my understanding of the system and apologize?
Cheers,
Bernard
You owe this forum an apology. Period.
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Thanks Craig,
I just skimmed it and it looks interesting. What is really bogging me down here is that everyone is treating this as a binary option, either we fully lock down or not. I saw the article talks about an in between method that I think needs to be implemented real soon or chaos will break out.
If we had shut down any other industry then the restaurant industry I would say we have a little more time and can relax a bit more. But those in the service industry have been out of a job for 3 weeks now, and, being a former restaurant employee, I can tell you 60+% of those people will be out of money in another week, two max. They are not known to be the most understanding of people, and I know for a fact they will start loosing their shit soon.
It is going to happen.
But it just annoys me the liberal elites are pushing for this total lockdown and not considering a in between method. Recently other NYC photographers I know (not on here) started making fun of the governor of OK for him saying it does not make sense for his entire state to lockdown. They thought they know best, being NYC elitists, yet completely ignored it is planting season, which follows a strict schedule especially when you need to get two harvests from your land a year. It is shit like this that is annoying the hell out of me.
We can lock down everyone. We need plans that take into account geography and ages, or it is not going to work because people will just simply get back to work.
If I was a farmer in the mid-west this time of year, I would give a rats ass what anyone had to say about staying inside. I would have plants I need to get into the ground right now, and anyone who says otherwise can screw themselves. This is the mentality we will be dealing with, especially as bank accounts of lower income people start to run dry.
I saw some statistics today that show lower income people are suffering more being out of work than those paid better. It seems that at the lower end, more service jobs like waiters have been laid off. On the other hand, many middle income people who work in offices, have been able to work from home. They're continuing to get their salaries. So shutting down the economy is hurting those least able to tolerate it. They're the ones who are unemployed the most.
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Craig accused me of insulting Americans. I answered that my grief was only about the 25% who voted for Trump.
What is the relevance to this discussion of the % of voters who voted for Trump?
The answer is... none.
Are you going to withdraw your condescending comments about my understanding of the system and apologize?
Cheers,
Bernard
As far as I am concerned, the people who did not vote are of no consequence to the conversation. They are meaningless, nothing but shadows in the political system, and not to be cared about when discussing politics. Like I said, either they are young and their voices are meaningless when it come decision making due to their lack of wisdom or they decided to not vote and tell us they themselves dont enough care about their opinions, at least not enough to vote.
The fact remains, it was 46% of us who actually matter that voted for Trump.
So no.
However, I will send you an olive branch. When you apologize for saying all us Trump voters and republicans have the blood of the dead on our hands, I'll apologize for my condescending post about USA civics.
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That matters to whatever point you are trying to make.
But that’s not what I wrote above when I quoted 25%. I wrote that only 25% of the population voted for Trump.
Is that factually mistaken?
Cheers,
Bernard
It’s a meaningless. Learn to live with your failures.
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You seriously comparing Trump to Trudeau. Please don't embarrass yourself.
You embarrassed yourself by voting for Trudeau. At least Trump didn't go around three times in his life that we know of wearing black face like Trudeau. He actually did it pretty recently. What kind of a fool for a prime minister does that in this day and age? How do you vote for a guy like that?
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Such a racist comment.
I apologize on behalf of LL to the Chinese community. Rest assured that the view expressed by Craig is only his own.
Cheers,
Bernard
That was not a racist comment.
It was China's screw up. They were more concerned about the reputation of their one party then world health.
It is not racist to point out this pandemic is solely due to China, and they owe the world immense compensation for it.
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Such a racist comment.
I apologize on behalf of LL to the Chinese community. Rest assured that the view expressed by Craig is only his own.
Cheers,
Bernard
Did the virus come from China Bernard? Is it killing people all over the world? You like to lay blame for the death of people from this Virus and you even blamed members of this forum as being in part responsible.
So now you call a set of true and irrefutable facts as racist.
My oh my your hole keeps getting deeper. I suggest you learn the first rule of holes.
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Right. Trudeau has much nicer hair and wears more stylish socks. He can also read.
Trumps had hotter women. So there. :)
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I see New York received 1000 ventilators from China. Maybe those commies aren't that bad after all. Oh wait...maybe the ventilators are booby trapped and will release the virus at midnight. Or maybe they are bugged and will be used to take down the Internet.
They probably stole the patent from an American company.
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Les, Your PM acknowledge he didn't take many measures he should have. While Trump stopped some international travel to America as early as January, Trudeau didn't do it until March.
"Canada, however, didn’t take significant steps to restrict international travellers until mid-March. On Monday, Trudeau — asked whether that should have happened earlier — seemed to acknowledge that with the benefit of hindsight, more could have been done."
The point is none of us has hindsight and no one wanted to over react. Why is the focus only on Trump's lack of foretelling the future? Every leader missed things in this crisis. Frankly, a lot of what happened all around is luck. No one should count their chickens before they hatch. It's not over and could come back to haunt us again. At a minimum, we're all going to have to deal with the enormous economic costs.
https://globalnews.ca/news/6753297/coronavirus-trudeau-covid-us-cases/
Alan, I never intended to start an argument about Trump (or leaders from other countries). I only corrected Craig's comment that Trump wasn't downplaying the coronavirus risks.
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That does not matter.
As far as I am concerned, if you're of legal age and dont vote, your opinion is meaningless. You have already told us that is what you feel by by not voting.
If you are not of legal age, I could care less about your opinion. You're a child, and don't have the life experiences to have a clue about anything. How can a 16 year, who's never fallen in love and still a virgin, never dealt with a mortgage, never had a car payment, never had to deal with life altering consequences they themselves brought onto not only themselves but others, never dealt with death repeatably, never had to plan a funeral and be the executor of an estate of a loved one, never had to watch their finances dwindle due to a recession, etc, have any clue to be able to make an informed decision?
Well, when things get bad for them, they could always move back in with mommy and daddy. :)
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Trumps had hotter women. So there. :)
Did you see this part of the press conference today?
“I want to come way under the models. The professionals did the models. I was never involved in a model. But – at least this kind of a model.”
If you don't have some time for humor, you might as well die anyway. As usual, the left is loosing it over this, but I got a laugh out of it.
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As far as I am concerned, the people who did not vote are of no consequence to the conversation. They are meaningless, nothing but shadows in the political system, and not to be cared about when discussing politics. Like I said, either they are young and their voices are meaningless when it come decision making due to their lack of wisdom or they decided to not vote and tell us they themselves dont enough care about their opinions, at least not enough to vote.
The fact remains, it was 46% of us who actually matter that voted for Trump.
So no.
However, I will send you an olive branch. When you apologize for saying all us Trump voters and republicans have the blood of the dead on our hands, I'll apologize for my condescending post about USA civics.
I understand how painful a realization that is and I feel sorry for you and for the many victims resulting from Trump’s actions and words.
He is obviously not responsible for the virus. But he is responsible for what he said and did. President of the US is a tough job, especially in such circumstances. But the way the job is executed matters... a lot. And that has been very very poor as has been demonstrated with total clarity in this thread.
You are obviously not responsible for the virus either, but you have chosen to keep supporting a leader whom you knew was not competent. And I don’t know what you call responsibility if you think you have none on this. I really don’t.
This set aside I sincerely hope that you will all be safe.
Final comments from me in this thread.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Did the virus come from China Bernard? Is it killing people all over the world? You like to lay blame for the death of people from this Virus and you even blamed members of this forum as being in part responsible.
So now you call a set of true and irrefutable facts as racist.
My oh my your hole keeps getting deeper. I suggest you learn the first rule of holes.
Calling someone a racist, is the first line of defence for a leftist, socialist or Democrat, who can't refute the facts. You know that.
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I understand how painful a realization that is and I feel sorry for you and for the many victims resulting from Trump’s actions and words.
He is obviously not responsible for the virus. But he is responsible for what he said and did. President of the US is a tough job, especially in such circumstances. But the way the job is executed matters... a lot. And that has been very very poor as has been demonstrated with total clarity in this thread.
You are obviously not responsible for the virus either, but you have chosen to keep supporting a leader whom you knew was not competent. And I don’t know what you call responsibility if you think you have none on this. I really don’t.
This set aside I sincerely hope that you will all be safe.
Final comments from me in this thread.
Cheers,
Bernard
What pain? ??? ??? ???
;D ;D ;D
I feel no pain what so ever. I have no remorse for my vote.
Your attempt to goad me into feeling guilty for voting for Trump is a fool's errand.
Seriously, you have no higher moral ground then I do Bernard. You're not a priest or rabbi or imam.
Your heart is filled with so much hate, it has distorted your soul. I recommend perhaps you find a priest or a rabbi or an imam and have a long deep conversation.
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You embarrassed yourself by voting for Trudeau. At least Trump didn't go around three times in his life that we know of wearing black face like Trudeau. He actually did it pretty recently. What kind of a fool for a prime minister does that in this day and age? How do you vote for a guy like that?
Yeh...your boy goes out hires hookers and grabs snatches and then brags about it. Oh...and he refers to African countries as shitholes.
Like I said, don't embarrass yourself defending the shithole.
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They probably stole the patent from an American company.
Maybe...but China built them and American is sitting here holding the bag. Now who's the genius?
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Alan, I never intended to start an argument about Trump (or leaders from other countries). I only corrected Craig's comment that Trump wasn't downplaying the coronavirus risks.
You got lumped into all the Canadians' remarks here. And you did say he can't read. Another smear. From you. It's pretty impolite to insult the leaders of other countries and their voters. It takes balls especially when your own leaders aren't saints. The self-righteousness of the Trump haters and his voters is suffocating. The constant bile against Trump is just over the top. So if you keep up the attacks on him, you better be ready to get back what you give. Sorry.
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Alan, I never intended to start an argument about Trump (or leaders from other countries). I only corrected Craig's comment that Trump wasn't downplaying the coronavirus risks.
But and Trump and more importantly his experts did not downplay the virus. America got the best advice the experts had to offer, unvarnished and not surpressed. That’s is the unvarnished fact.
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Yeh...your boy goes out hires hookers and grabs snatches and then brags about it. Oh...and he refers to African countries as shitholes.
Like I said, don't embarrass yourself defending the shithole.
Really he hired hookers? Do have verified proof of that? And you have never grabbed a snatch?
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Did you see this part of the press conference today?
“I want to come way under the models. The professionals did the models. I was never involved in a model. But – at least this kind of a model.”
If you don't have some time for humor, you might as well die anyway. As usual, the left is loosing it over this, but I got a laugh out of it.
Politics has removed their sense of humor. We all need to lighten up a little.
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Maybe...but China built them and American is sitting here holding the bag. Now who's the genius?
Wow, let’s see. Let a virus from your country invade the world and then you get to be called a genius? Amazing logic...
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Bernard,
What do you think about Japan -- not the politics, but the numbers? Is it going to get bad? Is it already bad? I saw something that said a lot of Japanese wear masks in the Spring because of allergies, and that may have cut the spread of the virus. What do you think? Also, are you spending any time with a camera, documenting this? Empty train windows, that sort of thing? People here really don't believe this, but we're going to lose more Americans than we lost in all the wars we've fought after WWII, but nobody seems to be documenting it in a historical sense. It's all journalism, and the journalism isn't even very thoughtful and there's little attempt at objectivity by anyone.
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I understand how painful a realization that is and I feel sorry for you and for the many victims resulting from Trump’s actions and words.
He is obviously not responsible for the virus. But he is responsible for what he said and did. President of the US is a tough job, especially in such circumstances. But the way the job is executed matters... a lot. And that has been very very poor as has been demonstrated with total clarity in this thread.
You are obviously not responsible for the virus either, but you have chosen to keep supporting a leader whom you knew was not competent. And I don’t know what you call responsibility if you think you have none on this. I really don’t.
This set aside I sincerely hope that you will all be safe.
Final comments from me in this thread.
Cheers,
Bernard
Go get a good night sleep, Bernard. It looks like you wore yourself out. :)
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But and Trump and more importantly his experts did not downplay the virus. America got the best advice the experts had to offer, unvarnished and not surpressed. That’s is the unvarnished fact.
Craig, I interpreted Trump's remarks differently than you. Could be due to the difference between the American and Canadian spelling.
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Yeh...your boy goes out hires hookers and grabs snatches and then brags about it. Oh...and he refers to African countries as shitholes.
Like I said, don't embarrass yourself defending the shithole.
Trudeau will never live down the black faces. Not only is it racist, only a child acts like that. So you elected a little boy who makes fun of black people. What a disgrace.
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You got lumped into all the Canadians' remarks here. And you did say he can't read. Another smear. From you. It's pretty impolite to insult the leaders of other countries and their voters. It takes balls especially when your own leaders aren't saints. The self-righteousness of the Trump haters and his voters is suffocating. The constant bile against Trump is just over the top. So if you keep up the attacks on him, you better be ready to get back what you give. Sorry.
I admit, that the post about Trudeau being able to read was perhaps not the most appropriate. That was actually a response to a later, entirely different post than to the Craig's post about Trump never denying the coronavirus risks. I should have said, that although both leaders can read, one reads more than the other.
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Craig, I interpreted Trump's remarks differently than you. Could be due to the difference between the American and Canadian spelling.
You are thinking singular. It’s a group effort.
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Bernard,
What do you think about Japan -- not the politics, but the numbers? Is it going to get bad? Is it already bad? I saw something that said a lot of Japanese wear masks in the Spring because of allergies, and that may have cut the spread of the virus. What do you think? Also, are you spending any time with a camera, documenting this? Empty train windows, that sort of thing? People here really don't believe this, but we're going to lose more Americans than we lost in all the wars we've fought after WWII, but nobody seems to be documenting it in a historical sense. It's all journalism, and the journalism isn't even very thoughtful and there's little attempt at objectivity by anyone.
John, Here are some photo essays by the NY Times. They're one of the few newspapers keeping up with their essays although not to the full extent they use too. I think you'll find them very heart wrenching. These take place in Italy.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/03/27/world/europe/coronavirus-italy-bergamo.html
This one called The Great Empty.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/03/23/world/coronavirus-great-empty.html
Rural farm areas in America where the virus has attacked.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/04/business/coronavirus-rural-america-oregon.html
China's battle.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/25/world/asia/china-coronavirus-photos.html
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Bernard,
What do you think about Japan -- not the politics, but the numbers? Is it going to get bad? Is it already bad? I saw something that said a lot of Japanese wear masks in the Spring because of allergies, and that may have cut the spread of the virus. What do you think? Also, are you spending any time with a camera, documenting this? Empty train windows, that sort of thing? People here really don't believe this, but we're going to lose more Americans than we lost in all the wars we've fought after WWII, but nobody seems to be documenting it in a historical sense. It's all journalism, and the journalism isn't even very thoughtful and there's little attempt at objectivity by anyone
John,
I think that there are several things that can be said about Japan:
- considering that they have only tested so far people with pretty severe symptoms, the actual number of infected people is probably tens of times higher than reported
- but still, it seems true that they have faced extremely few numbers of severe cases, the hospitals are overall not more full than in normal years (as of today they have only 22 people suffering from severe symptoms in the whole of Japan)
- considering that they have never taken stringent measures nor closed flights from China, they should be facing a super high number of casualties if things were comparable to other countries, so there must be a difference. The high rate of mask usage has certainly contributed. Another interesting theory is that the BCG vaccine, in particular the type used in Japan (called Tokyo 172) may help reinforce the immunity system against lung disease and would therefore reduce a lot the severity of the symptoms when someone is infected. This theory is under under testing on a large scale in Holland and Australia at this time
- now they are starting to test more and they see more infected people, but still very few severe cases among Japanese natives
- no, I have been super busy with work and the schooling of my daughter, I have not had the opportunity to take pictures illustrating the situation, but the thing it that, since there is no confinement, Tokyo isn't empty at all. There are less people than usual, but it still feels rather busy. Totally different from what we see of European cities for example
On the political front, as I have written, I find their course of action extremely poor. I think they have been incredibly lucky so far.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I admit, that the post about Trudeau being able to read was perhaps not the most appropriate. That was actually a response to a later, entirely different post than to the Craig's post about Trump never denying the coronavirus risks. I should have said, that although both leaders can read, one reads more than the other.
A lot of ill will occurs here is because we're an international forum. Idioms and other language quirks can often cause misunderstandings when translated. Even when they don't, how we word responses especially in haste give a different tone then intended. I'll even give credit to the fear this whole virus is creating. I know I feel it. I feel like a prisoner in my own home. If I think too hard about it when I go to sleep, I can perceive an angel of death slipping under the door and taking me in the middle of the night. Just reading that 7 of my neighbors got this thing and one died doesn't help. Sometimes I think I want to drive someplace safe. But where would that be? So I break out the alcohol and spritz here a little and spritz there a little. Just to feel safer. Then I look at my wife, sound asleep already for hours. She takes it better. :-[
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A lot of ill will occurs here is because we're an international forum. Idioms and other language quirks can often cause misunderstandings when translated. Even when they don't, how we word responses especially in haste give a different tone then intended. I'll even give credit to the fear this whole virus is creating. I know I feel it. I feel like a prisoner in my own home. If I think too hard about it when I go to sleep, I can perceive an angel of death slipping under the door and taking me in the middle of the night. Just reading that 7 of my neighbors got this thing and one died doesn't help. Sometimes I think I want to drive someplace safe. But where would that be? So I break out the alcohol and spritz here a little and spritz there a little. Just to feel safer. Then I look at my wife, sound asleep already for hours. She takes it better. :-[
Sorry to hear about your neighbours, hopefully they will recover. I don't know here anybody with C19 virus, but recently two people in my close circle were diagnosed with a late stage cancer. One with a throat cancer already gone. The other with a bad pancreas cancer started the chemotherapy this week.
Having a sleep problem is bad enough. Adding worries about the virus makes it much worse. You should ease up on the worry part. As long as you keep far enough from the others in the store or on the sidewalk, you'll be safe. To forget the current world problems, you can watch Netflix movies. It helps to get you through the night.
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Just a little update. There are complaints about social distancing at the White House press briefings. I think it might be interesting to see what kind of space is really available open stage...
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Politics has removed their sense of humor. We all need to lighten up a little.
I think that action is more important, and that is being sorely missed in some countries.
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A number of stop gap bills have been passed to help with the problem. Not everyone will be made whole. Lots of people will lose a lot of money and some their homes and businesses. No goverment can fix all of this. Personally its going to cost me plenty. It already has and it will continue. The Government is not going to fix it all for me. Thats just the facts of life.
And on the bulk of that message, at last we have something on which we agree: governments are not about changing the facts of life; they can only do so much economically, the rest is up to us, as sane individuals, to make the best of the deal we are handed by life.
Our challenge is to remain sane - in the case that we ever were to begin with - and do our best to help along the recovery of the nation's health, by which the sooner we achieve that, the sooner we fix the economic costs.
And we have all heard the rules and sound advice: keep away from others so that they do not infect us and that we do not infect them.
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This was so much more then just embarrassment. What many on the left don't seem to understand is that he put it out there for everyone to read that 1/11 of our naval strength is now compromised by this virus.
Even if it was, you don't announce it out to your enemies because they may not know it, and even if they have an idea there are always doubts on intelligence. Now there are no doubts, which creates an opening to take advantage of.
Regardless if you believe China's numbers or not, they were the first to get this and will more then likely be the first to recover from it. This gives them a great strategic advantage militarily already. They know this, and anyone who does not think they will try and take advantage here has been living under a rock for the last 10 years.
The captain's irresponsible handling of the situation on board only makes it a better situation for China to take advantage of.
And anyone who thinks, for even a moment, that China is going to attack the US - or any other western power - any time soon has been living not under a rock, but in a bubble of high-pressure hysteria. The days of surprise military attacks are over: it's why we have nukes, armed and ready to go, far more ready than we were to face disease. No country can afford the risk of setting off that nuclear Armageddon; it's why NK and Iran are so determined to join/stay in the club: they know its their only final guarantee of not being attacked by superior conventional strength.
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Enough. This time, it stays closed.
Jeremy