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Author Topic: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS  (Read 70121 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1120 on: May 13, 2020, 10:13:22 am »

There seems to be a significant paradox involving the benefits of Vitamin D from sun exposure, and the risk of Melanoma and other skin cancers from sun exposure. I would deduce, by applying a bit of logic, that prolonged deficiency in Vitamin D will reduce the body's ability to resist the damaging effects of sun burn when a person occasionally lies on the beach during holidays or a long weekend, hence the advice to always apply sun screen lotion.

Dr Rachel Neale has promoted the greater use of sun screen lotion in the past, but recently appears to have changed her mind.

"Rachel Neale did her PhD in skin cancer prevention and has done plenty of research into the dangers of sunlight. Yet every day around noon the professor strips down into shorts, or maybe pulls up her skirt, exposes a bit of belly if there’s no one around, and bares as much of her skin as she can to the hard Brisbane sun.

It’s only for five to 10 minutes. But having last year published the most comprehensive review and meta-analysis of the effect that vitamin D has on acute respiratory tract infections, she’s in a good position to judge what may be helpful if she ever gets exposed to COVID-19.

In Neale’s review, which encompassed 78,000 participants, it was found that those with low levels of vitamin D — the “sunshine vitamin” — were almost twice as likely as those with high vitamin D levels to get the type of extreme lung infections that now are killing COVID-19 sufferers, and they were even more likely again to be sicker for longer.

And so how does this translate to the pandemic? “Now, more than ever, is not the time to be vitamin D deficient,” Neale says from Brisbane’s QIMR Berghofer Medical Research Institute. “It would make sense that being vitamin D deficient would increase the risk of having symptomatic COVID-19 and potentially having worse symptoms. And that’s because vitamin D seems to have important effects on the immune system.”

For all vitamin D’s advantages, Neale doesn’t take vitamin D pills. She is cognizant of the emerging evidence that the sun provides more benefits than just the sunshine vitamin."


Unfortunately the link to this information, which includes lots of related articles, seems to be behind a paywall, but I'll provide it, just in case it's useful.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/inquirer/sunlights-role-in-containing-the-coronavirus/news-story/ea0104fac291d253e4fd6b06629ab74b
Although I have cancer in my family and have had it myself (not skin), I don't use suntan lotion.  I might be making a mistake.  But I feel that some sun is good.  I'll limit myself to maybe ten minutes or so and then duck into the shade or cover myself.  Years ago I would lay out and burn.  But no longer.  But I feel a little but of everything is healthy in moderation.  I also have a skin doctor look me over once a year and remove any pre-cancerous things he might find.

LesPalenik

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1121 on: May 13, 2020, 10:44:43 am »

Although I have cancer in my family and have had it myself (not skin), I don't use suntan lotion.  I might be making a mistake.  But I feel that some sun is good.  I'll limit myself to maybe ten minutes or so and then duck into the shade or cover myself.  Years ago I would lay out and burn.  But no longer.  But I feel a little but of everything is healthy in moderation.  I also have a skin doctor look me over once a year and remove any pre-cancerous things he might find.

Likewise. I never use sun protection creme. In the summer or when in sunny destinations, I try to avoid the midday sun, and wear a hat, long pants and long-sleeved shirts.
When swimming and drying out on the shore, I take off everything, except my Euro-length shorts rather than the 30 inches long American style.
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LesPalenik

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1122 on: May 13, 2020, 10:51:29 am »

Does China have different tests?  Are they better or worse?  Can we produce enough of the tests required?  Is the problem getting trained people to give the tests?

China is now building test facilities in Serbia and selling test kits also to other countries. But they are no good.

Quote
A Chinese-built state-of-the-art laboratory is helping to nearly double Serbia’s testing capacity for COVID-19, the lung disease caused by the new coronavirus, in the latest example of close ties between Belgrade and Beijing. The Huo-Yan National Laboratory for Molecular Detection of Infectious Agents in Belgrade is the first that the Beijing Genomics Institute (BGI) has helped to build in Europe and has the capacity to carry out more than 2,000 tests a day.

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The 1.2 million Chinese antibody tests that the Slovak government bought from local middlemen for 15 million euros ($16 million) are inaccurate and unable to detect Covid-19 in its early stages, according to Prime Minister Igor Matovic, who only took office last month. “We have a ton and no use for them,” he said. They should “just be thrown straight into the Danube.”

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-01/faulty-virus-tests-cloud-china-s-european-outreach-over-covid-19
« Last Edit: May 13, 2020, 10:54:43 am by LesPalenik »
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1123 on: May 13, 2020, 11:33:47 am »

China is now building test facilities in Serbia and selling test kits also to other countries. But they are no good.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-01/faulty-virus-tests-cloud-china-s-european-outreach-over-covid-19

Throwing them "straight into the Danube" seems reckless.
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LesPalenik

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1124 on: May 13, 2020, 11:38:11 am »

Throwing them "straight into the Danube" seems reckless.

Yes, they would float all the way to Hungary.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1125 on: May 13, 2020, 12:13:19 pm »

China is now building test facilities in Serbia and selling test kits also to other countries. But they are no good.
That is a false statement.  Some of the tests have too many false results and some of them are quite good.  Any clinical laboratory worth their salt will validate any test regardless of who manufactured it or where.
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LesPalenik

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1126 on: May 13, 2020, 12:16:01 pm »

That is a false statement.  Some of the tests have too many false results and some of them are quite good.  Any clinical laboratory worth their salt will validate any test regardless of who manufactured it or where.

Right! Even a broken watch will show correct time twice a day.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1127 on: May 13, 2020, 01:17:34 pm »

Right! Even a broken watch will show correct time twice a day.
Take this kind of talk elsewhere.  There are a number of tests from China, Singapore and South Korea that perform exceptionally well.  You need to realize that there is no test that is 100% accurate and the highly touted quick test that is used to screen people going into the White House has one of the poorest performances of all the RT-PCR tests.
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LesPalenik

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1128 on: May 13, 2020, 01:21:08 pm »

Take this kind of talk elsewhere.  There are a number of tests from China, Singapore and South Korea that perform exceptionally well.  You need to realize that there is no test that is 100% accurate and the highly touted quick test that is used to screen people going into the White House has one of the poorest performances of all the RT-PCR tests.

OK, fair enough. I read about several instances when initially the test results were negative and only the subsequent tests indicated presence of the virus.
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faberryman

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1129 on: May 13, 2020, 01:46:52 pm »

OK, fair enough. I read about several instances when initially the test results were negative and only the subsequent tests indicated presence of the virus.
Yes. Just like Mike Pence's spokesperson. She was doing beautifully on the tests and then one day something happened and all of a sudden she tested positive.
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LesPalenik

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1130 on: May 13, 2020, 04:07:37 pm »

Interesting data about the spread capabilities of the C19 virus:

A single breath releases 50 - 5000 droplets. Most of these droplets are low velocity and fall to the ground quickly. There are even fewer droplets released through nose-breathing. Importantly, due to the lack of exhalation force with a breath, viral particles from the lower respiratory areas are not expelled.

A single cough releases about 3,000 droplets and droplets travels at 50 miles per hour. Most droplets are large, and fall quickly (gravity), but many do stay in the air and can travel across a room in a few seconds.

A single sneeze releases about 30,000 droplets, with droplets traveling at up to 200 miles per hour. Most droplets are small and travel great distances (easily across a room).
« Last Edit: May 15, 2020, 05:46:17 pm by LesPalenik »
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John Camp

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1131 on: May 13, 2020, 04:47:59 pm »

Ann interesting story from the NYT news service in the local paper saying that all deadly pandemics actually have two endings -- one social and one medical. Social is when people begin to reopen, accepting further damage from the disease; and the medical ending, when the disease eventually disappears. This is true all the way back to the early bubonic plagues. The bottom line, according to the story, and it uses this word, is that all pandemic endings are "messy."

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Chris Kern

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1132 on: May 13, 2020, 06:06:35 pm »

Ann interesting story from the NYT news service in the local paper saying that all deadly pandemics actually have two endings -- one social and one medical.

The Times piece, by science reporter Gina Kolata, is available here.  Well-researched, well-written, and a good historical perspective that may hold some clues about the (hopefully near) future.

Craig Lamson

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1133 on: May 13, 2020, 07:14:50 pm »

The Times piece, by science reporter Gina Kolata, is available here.  Well-researched, well-written, and a good historical perspective that may hold some clues about the (hopefully near) future.

Interesting.  Thanks for sharing.
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Ray

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1134 on: May 14, 2020, 07:50:02 am »

Although I have cancer in my family and have had it myself (not skin), I don't use suntan lotion.  I might be making a mistake.  But I feel that some sun is good.  I'll limit myself to maybe ten minutes or so and then duck into the shade or cover myself.  Years ago I would lay out and burn.  But no longer.  But I feel a little but of everything is healthy in moderation.  I also have a skin doctor look me over once a year and remove any pre-cancerous things he might find.

I've never worried about skin cancer, and I've never bothered to apply sun screen lotion, even when exposed to long periods of sunlight. However, I recall my mum used to frequently give me a spoon of cod-liver oil when I was young, and eggs and fish were a regular part of my diet, so maybe that has strengthened my immune system.

When now reading about the benefits and risks of sunlight exposure, as a result of coming across the claimed beneficial effects of Vitamin D on reducing Covid-19 infection, I can't help associating the uncertainty about the precise processes with the uncertainty about the climate change issue.

Climate change alarmists tend to ignore the beneficial effects of a warmer climate and the increased plant growth due to human CO2 emissions. They just concentrate on the bad effects.

This is analogous to skin cancer researchers advising everyone to stay out of the sun, or always apply sun screen lotion to block the UV rays in order to reduce the risk of skin cancer. They tend to ignore the beneficial effects of sun exposure.

My impression, after reading a few studies, is that the production of Vitamin D is only one of the benefits of sun exposure, although it's a major benefit. Therefore, Vitamin D supplements, and/or a diet which is high in Vitamin D will not necessarily fully compensate for lack of sun exposure.

The sun causes the body to produce many other 'photoproducts'. (No camera required   ;D  )
These photoproducts include 'Serotonin' which enhances mood and reduces depression, and Nitric Oxide which is a potent vasodilator which expands the arteries, increases blood flow, lowers blood pressure, reduces the risk of heart disease, and so on.

The following site delves into the various issues.
http://sunlightinstitute.org/tag/nitric-oxide/
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1135 on: May 14, 2020, 08:53:26 am »

This is analogous to skin cancer researchers advising everyone to stay out of the sun, or always apply sun screen lotion to block the UV rays in order to reduce the risk of skin cancer. They tend to ignore the beneficial effects of sun exposure.

They probably never advised people to stay out of the sun entirely. There's a big step between getting a few minutes of sunshine and baking in the sun for hours. Lots of people who smoke never get lung cancer or COPB, that's not a contradiction of the anti-smoking advisory.
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Ray

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1136 on: May 14, 2020, 10:14:02 am »

They probably never advised people to stay out of the sun entirely. There's a big step between getting a few minutes of sunshine and baking in the sun for hours. Lots of people who smoke never get lung cancer or COPB, that's not a contradiction of the anti-smoking advisory.

The advice is to always apply sun screen lotion, which is designed to block the UV rays from the sun, which is equivalent to staying out of the sun. The most effective sun screen lotions will block out 95-98% of the UV rays.

The problem is, most of us live in an artificial environment in houses, offices, buildings such as cinemas and shopping centers, and transport vehicles. Our skin is rarely exposed to direct sunlight, so we become ultra-sensitive to UV rays on the few occasions when we holiday on the beach.

A few minutes of sun exposure each day, without sun screen lotion, is good advice, provided it's summer and you are near the equator. Away from the equator, and especially in winter, I'd recommend at least half an hour each day, around mid-day.

I should add that the time length of exposure is also related to the area of one's body that is exposed. Half an hour of full exposure in winter, wearing just a bathing costume, is probably appropriate. 15 minutes in summer might be sufficient, every day when the sun shines.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2020, 10:21:22 am by Ray »
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PeterAit

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1137 on: May 14, 2020, 11:00:46 am »

This is a very informative article about how the virus spreads and how to minimize your risks.

https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them

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Chris Kern

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1138 on: May 14, 2020, 01:06:22 pm »

This is a very informative article about how the virus spreads and how to minimize your risks.

On a related subject, a physician's approach to setting up a successful regime for safe interaction, based on his experience in a hospital setting.

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1139 on: May 14, 2020, 01:19:33 pm »

I've never worried about skin cancer, and I've never bothered to apply sun screen lotion, even when exposed to long periods of sunlight. However, I recall my mum used to frequently give me a spoon of cod-liver oil when I was young, and eggs and fish were a regular part of my diet, so maybe that has strengthened my immune system.


You can count yourself among the lucky ones.  I've had skin problems on and off since the age of 25 when I first started getting sun exposure patches that required liquid nitrogen freezing.  I grew up on the beaches of Southern California in the days before sunscreen and have paid the price ever since.  I had the same kind of diet you did growing up but that doesn't mean much.  What works for you, works for you and that's about all one can say.
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