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Author Topic: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS  (Read 76615 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1160 on: May 22, 2020, 01:02:08 pm »

And 90% of the positive HCQ papers I have read suffer from this problem and even worse, they don't have anywhere near the number of patients in the analysis.  Anyone is free to believe in magical thinking but if it puts one's life in peril, that's not the approach to take.  There is no question that HCQ and espcially with azithromycin is dangerous at a non-negligible level.  Anyone taking the drug should be monitored by a doctor for arrhythmia before starting therapy.
The president has a personal doctor who's with him all the time.  Me?  I can't even get hold of my cardiologist.  He doesn't answer my phone calls.

Craig Lamson

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1161 on: May 22, 2020, 01:03:17 pm »

And 90% of the positive HCQ papers I have read suffer from this problem and even worse, they don't have anywhere near the number of patients in the analysis.  Anyone is free to believe in magical thinking but if it puts one's life in peril, that's not the approach to take.  There is no question that HCQ and espcially with azithromycin is dangerous at a non-negligible level.  Anyone taking the drug should be monitored by a doctor for arrhythmia before starting therapy.

Of course thats the point.  And its between a DR and the patient.  Its not for everyone and for some it works or at least appears to do so.  Having taken a few different meds in my time on earth and looking at the very long list of side effects for many of these drugs, it appears this is not uncommon, at least to a layman.  I've had to quit taking some of the products due to those side effects.  So this is different how?  Especially since this drug has been used for what, 65 years?
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1162 on: May 22, 2020, 02:55:29 pm »

Of course thats the point.  And its between a DR and the patient.  Its not for everyone and for some it works or at least appears to do so.  Having taken a few different meds in my time on earth and looking at the very long list of side effects for many of these drugs, it appears this is not uncommon, at least to a layman.  I've had to quit taking some of the products due to those side effects.  So this is different how?  Especially since this drug has been used for what, 65 years?
Use was declining for years as it became less effective for treating malaria.  In the US, about the only people taking it were those suffering from lupus and rheumatoid arthritis.  When our daughter went to Ghana for the summer back in 2007 she took Malarone.  Hydroxychloroquine is problematic because of the very long half life in the body (24 days when most drug half lives are measured in hours).  The cardiotoxicty of the drug has been well known for a long time.
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chez

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1163 on: May 22, 2020, 03:21:43 pm »

Of course thats the point.  And its between a DR and the patient.  Its not for everyone and for some it works or at least appears to do so.  Having taken a few different meds in my time on earth and looking at the very long list of side effects for many of these drugs, it appears this is not uncommon, at least to a layman.  I've had to quit taking some of the products due to those side effects.  So this is different how?  Especially since this drug has been used for what, 65 years?

Where's the proof it works?
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Craig Lamson

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1164 on: May 22, 2020, 04:48:51 pm »

Where's the proof it works?

Ask the users.  Lots of people have taken it and say it helps. 
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Craig Lamson

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1165 on: May 22, 2020, 04:51:16 pm »

Use was declining for years as it became less effective for treating malaria.  In the US, about the only people taking it were those suffering from lupus and rheumatoid arthritis.  When our daughter went to Ghana for the summer back in 2007 she took Malarone.  Hydroxychloroquine is problematic because of the very long half life in the body (24 days when most drug half lives are measured in hours).  The cardiotoxicty of the drug has been well known for a long time.

Still its a medication that both Drs and patients find valuable. Side effects are part of taking meds.  You weight those when you decide to try a drug. There is really no difference here.
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chez

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1166 on: May 22, 2020, 04:52:15 pm »

Ask the users.  Lots of people have taken it and say it helps.

Helps what, how? You do realize the vast majority who have Covid recover. So how can you tell if the drug helped or you just recovered. Without an actual trial...which there was one now and showed it did diddly squat.
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faberryman

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1167 on: May 22, 2020, 04:55:47 pm »

Ask the users.  Lots of people have taken it and say it helps.

I take a multi-vitamin and didn't contract COVID-19, so that's what I recommend. And, you don't need a prescription.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2020, 05:13:49 pm by faberryman »
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Craig Lamson

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1168 on: May 22, 2020, 06:41:10 pm »

Helps what, how? You do realize the vast majority who have Covid recover. So how can you tell if the drug helped or you just recovered. Without an actual trial...which there was one now and showed it did diddly squat.

First, you are incorrect , if you are referring to the work linked by Alan G, that it is not a trial , but rather a data mined analysis.  In fact the work states that an actual trial will be required.  There is no real dispute the drug(s) can cause serious hearth problems in those with other conditions   As Alan G stated the heart issues are not a new issue with this drug.  So  some believe it has helped, others not. 

But I guess the real issue is why the heck do you even care?  This is an issue between a Dr and the patient. If they both agree it a course of action that they want to try, why should you care?  Its really none of your concern. 

As the pro choice folks like to say, my body, my choice.  And until ( or if) a  fully effective treatment is found, this people and their Drs are making personal choices, and again is none of your business what the do.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1169 on: May 22, 2020, 06:41:44 pm »

I take a multi-vitamin and didn't contract COVID-19, so that's what I recommend. And, you don't need a prescription.

Vitamin D ....
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chez

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1170 on: May 22, 2020, 09:23:25 pm »

The people still need to get a Dr to prescribe the drug.  Lots of people are taking it and bragging that it helped them.  Who the heck are you to tell them they are wrong?  The answer, you are nobody.  But given that this is a personal decision and there is nothing better available at this time, "because people say so" is perfectly reasonable. 

Oh and by BTW, was there really a spike in "poisoning" or was it just a spike in calls asking about it?  Why don't you find out the truth and post the real answer for a change.  And was there a suggestion to ingest bleach or is that just more propaganda?

Enough said to you, here.  You want to agrue you have it right, I'll be in the ohter thread.

So someone heard something from another person that saw something on Facebook that they took I the drug and didn't die. Good to know...you lining up at your doctor's office to get a prescription. After all if the Commander idiot takes it...it must be great.

So no real evidence...just like I though...full of it.
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armand

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1171 on: May 22, 2020, 09:51:22 pm »

I thought Playpen was the place to be, is it getting too little action there?


There is no good evidence the hydroxychloroquine is helpful. In medicine there is a clear principle, first do no harm. If there is no proven benefit, you don't give drug, outside of clinical trials and compassionate use. The only time you could try is for very high mortality and no treatment, if there is some sound reasoning why it could work. Currently, in ICUs, where theoretically the benefit could outweigh the risk given the much higher mortality, it's not being recommended.
For outpatients it makes even less sense:
- first, not everybody will get it
- second, a majority will get better without treatment so the drug should have a very good safety profile, not to mention very good clinical effect

That Trump and his physician decided to go for it it's not standard of care right now.

Chris Kern

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1172 on: May 22, 2020, 10:00:46 pm »

I thought Playpen was the place to be, is it getting too little action there?

Some of us hoped to confine the petty squabbles and uninformed argumentation to that thread, but I fear that ship has sailed.

LesPalenik

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1173 on: May 22, 2020, 11:13:46 pm »

Looking at the Worldometer stats, it seems that for the top ten countries the number of infections and deaths is declining (except Brazil which leapfrogged to number 2 position, and there was also a spike for Spain).

I wonder whether the lower numbers reflect the actual situation or if the people reporting these counts are getting tired. Especially China which pretty much stopped their reporting.
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Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1174 on: May 23, 2020, 09:26:32 am »

Looking at the Worldometer stats, it seems that for the top ten countries the number of infections and deaths is declining (except Brazil which leapfrogged to number 2 position, and there was also a spike for Spain).

I wonder whether the lower numbers reflect the actual situation or if the people reporting these counts are getting tired. Especially China which pretty much stopped their reporting.
Let's hope it's dying out and won't come back.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1175 on: May 23, 2020, 09:41:08 am »

Let's hope it's dying out and won't come back.

It's a globally present virus, it's very effective in spreading, it will be back. Therefore, we should (and can) be prepared next time around.
Until then, we need to cope with what we think we understand about it now.
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== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

LesPalenik

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1176 on: May 23, 2020, 10:00:31 am »

Let's hope it's dying out and won't come back.

In this case, the hope and prayers won't help. Only a good science.

To paraphrase Winston Churchill who said I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat, a good leader would say that he can offer only tears, cough, isolation and sweat under the mask.
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Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1177 on: May 23, 2020, 11:17:55 am »

Well, let's hope that we come up with an effective vaccine and shot that will kill it if you get it.  Sitting at home is getting old. 

PeterAit

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1178 on: May 23, 2020, 11:21:09 am »

A large observational study published in the lancet shows no effect of chloroquine on the virus but a definite increase in deaths from cardiac issues.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31180-6/fulltext

Too bad.
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LesPalenik

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1179 on: May 23, 2020, 11:39:49 am »

A large observational study published in the lancet shows no effect of chloroquine on the virus but a definite increase in deaths from cardiac issues.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31180-6/fulltext

Too bad.

That seems like a serious, large volume study. You can't argue with the facts and well documented observations.
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