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Author Topic: Extreme weather  (Read 57952 times)

Ray

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1200 on: January 04, 2020, 05:34:52 pm »

The "temporary workers" were indeed slaves: they were paid in kind: food, just like in the cotton fields.

If you are willing to believe that payment in food alone is not slavery, then there was no slavery in Belsen, none in the USA, either, so we can all relax and have a cup of tea and declare that it was all just a huge misunderstanding, and that we can now re-erect all those statues that we pulled down.

:-)

Did you read the entire article, Rob?

"The temporary workers

The many thousands of manual labourers were housed in a temporary camp beside the pyramid town. Here they received a subsistence wage in the form of rations. The standard Old Kingdom (2686-2181 BC) ration for a labourer was ten loaves and a measure of beer. (per day)

We can just about imagine a labouring family consuming ten loaves in a day, but supervisors and those of higher status were entitled to hundreds of loaves and many jugs of beer a day. These were supplies which would not keep fresh for long, so we must assume that they were, at least in part, notional rations, which were actually paid in the form of other goods - or perhaps credits. In any case, the pyramid town, like all other Egyptian towns, would soon have developed its own economy as everyone traded unwanted rations for desirable goods or skills."


Doesn't look like slavery to me.
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LesPalenik

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1201 on: January 05, 2020, 03:06:29 am »

Doesn't look like slavery to me.

Yeah, the workers did it from conviction and desire to please the pharaohs. And also because of satisfying their creative urges and self-actualization.
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Rob C

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1202 on: January 05, 2020, 03:55:51 am »

Did you read the entire article, Rob?

"The temporary workers

1. The many thousands of manual labourers were housed in a temporary camp beside the pyramid town. Here they received a subsistence wage in the form of rations. The standard Old Kingdom (2686-2181 BC) ration for a labourer was ten loaves and a measure of beer. (per day)

We can just about imagine a labouring family consuming ten loaves in a day, but supervisors and those of higher status were entitled to hundreds of loaves and many jugs of beer a day. These were supplies which would not keep fresh for long, so we must assume that they were, at least in part, notional rations, which were actually paid in the form of other goods - or perhaps credits. 2. In any case, the pyramid town, like all other Egyptian towns, would soon have developed its own economy as everyone traded unwanted rations for desirable goods or skills.

3. Doesn't look like slavery to me.

You're not looking critically, just from the perspective that might be bent to suit your narrative.

1. Housed as in:

Auschwitz-Birkenau.
Belzec.
Bergen-Belsen.
Buchenwald.
Chelmno.
Dachau.
Ebensee.
Flossenbürg.

2. Exactly as in all prisons; those living outside do not share the same fate or conditions except, in the WW2 case, lack of food.

3. Reflection of climate change attitude: the art of the ostrich.

;-)

Ray

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1203 on: January 05, 2020, 04:47:16 am »

You're not looking critically, just from the perspective that might be bent to suit your narrative.

It's not my narrative. I'm just quoting the archaeological experts in the field.
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Rob C

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1204 on: January 05, 2020, 09:08:03 am »

It's not my narrative. I'm just quoting the archaeological experts in the field.

But Ray, such experts change tack whever there's a fresh field to plough, a new set of tombs to raid or distinguished "papers" to write. Nobody wins awards doing the same old same old: esoteric academia depends on fresh discovery, real or imaginary - nobody can prove you right or wrong in either case. The world's theirs (not to mention the grants and travel opportunities) for the claiming.

:-)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1205 on: January 05, 2020, 11:12:49 am »

But Ray, such experts change tack whever there's a fresh field to plough, a new set of tombs to raid or distinguished "papers" to write. Nobody wins awards doing the same old same old: esoteric academia depends on fresh discovery, real or imaginary - nobody can prove you right or wrong in either case. The world's theirs (not to mention the grants and travel opportunities) for the claiming.

True, Rob, true.

But only for archeologists and historians that look a couple of thousands years back. Those who look a couple of millions of billions years back, like climatologists, are always right, intentions always pure,  never swayed by the grants and travel opportunities ;)

Rob C

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1206 on: January 05, 2020, 11:44:48 am »

True, Rob, true.

But only for archeologists and historians that look a couple of thousands years back. Those who look a couple of millions of billions years back, like climatologists, are always right, intentions always pure,  never swayed by the grants and travel opportunities ;)

I was always swayed by travel opportunies; funny we should touch on this, because I haven't flown for about fifteen years - ended up not even wanting to do it again, what with all the red tape, but as I memtioned earlier today, it's been a beautifully bright day with not a cloud in sight. Consequently, there were quite a few contrails coming and going all afternoon, and as I sat having my coffee I thought yeah, I'd love to be up there again, heading out somewhere. And there's the thing: travel was always about going.

That brilliantly bright day has already - at 17:43 - started to promise a freezingly cold night ahead!

Rob

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1207 on: January 05, 2020, 11:52:27 am »

... I'd love to be up there again, heading out somewhere...

And to bring the thread back full circle, this is apparently “up there” these days, above Australia:

Rob C

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1208 on: January 05, 2020, 11:57:21 am »

Yeah, and a helluva time for my granddaughter to have gone out there to work. At least, as a doc in A&E, she has a lot to contribute for those affected by this terrible scourge.

Ray

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1209 on: January 05, 2020, 06:09:46 pm »

But Ray, such experts change tack whever there's a fresh field to plough, a new set of tombs to raid or distinguished "papers" to write. Nobody wins awards doing the same old same old: esoteric academia depends on fresh discovery, real or imaginary - nobody can prove you right or wrong in either case. The world's theirs (not to mention the grants and travel opportunities) for the claiming.

:-)

Rarely do they change tack unanimously. History is an important subject, and as new evidence becomes available which appears to be in conflict with previously accepted understanding or interpretations of an issue, we should always modify our understanding, or at least question it.

If one looks at the history of droughts and floods in Australia, there is strong evidence that the current drought and heat waves are not unprecedented. Studies of ice cores from the Antarctic have provided a 1,000 year record of droughts in South West Australia. 8 mega droughts have been identified, 6 of which occurred before before the industrial revolution, and the worst one occurred in the 12th century A.D. and lasted 39 years.

Newspaper records from the 19th century describe terrible heat waves that killed many people in Australia. It's reasonable to question the accuracy of the reported temperatures which were as high as 129 Degrees F (or 54 degrees C). They might be off by a couple of degrees compared with modern methods of taking temperature readings, but I doubt that local newspapers would get away with reporting fake news about people dying during heat waves that didn't occur.

A major problem for us all, is that so many citizens don't seem to understand that although  the damage caused by extreme weather events, whether droughts, floods, or cyclones, might be unprecedented, because of the huge increase in population, the actual severity of the extreme weather event, in terms of flood height, drought length, maximum temperatures, and so on, is very unlikely to be unprecedented.

As a result of these current bush fires in Australia, there's going to be a major push to persuade the government to drastically reduce our CO2 emissions, because of a deluded belief that CO2 is the culprit.

If the Media would spend more time reporting on the history of climate change and extreme weather events, we'd stand a better chance of protecting ourselves from the very likely repetition of such events.
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Rob C

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1210 on: January 06, 2020, 04:48:05 am »

If I read you correctly, you are saying that nothing here, today, is new.

Just for the sake if argument, let's assume you are correct. Does it not, nonetheless, make good sense for mankind to reduce all possible additional contributory actions that it can, simply in order not to add to the problems we face?

If ten million people each contribute a quid to my Help Rob's Bank Numbers account, I will inevitably become very much better off than I am today. N'est-ce pas?

And that would not be a selfish expectation on my part: each week I happily contribute money to other people winning vastly larger sums on the lottery.

;-)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1211 on: January 06, 2020, 08:48:09 am »

A message to the Hollywood elites:

 ;D ;D ;D

Rob C

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1212 on: January 06, 2020, 12:20:21 pm »

A message to the Hollywood elites:

 ;D ;D ;D


If true, says something serious about the value of a "good" education. I have often thought that the drive to put as many people as possible into so-called further education (such as university) can often be a waste of both the student's time and money, if not that of the taxpayers, in some countries.

There is much to be said for non-academic knowledge; a good plumber or electrician is often a damned sight more valuable to one than any professor. Jobs are what folks need at the end of their studies, and not everybody who walks out of university with a degree will find employment that equates with his or her qualifications. That can lead to deep frustration.

Showbiz success is one of those glittering prizes not a great distance removed from the lottery; not for the poor of pocket or those with existing commitments to family! Or, perversely, just the ticket for those with nothing to lose.

Of course, this view in no way means that those who can actually benefit from higher education - mainly by following sensible courses - should neither pursue nor get it!

Rob

David Sutton

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1213 on: January 06, 2020, 05:00:29 pm »

Rarely do they change tack unanimously. History is an important subject, and as new evidence becomes available which appears to be in conflict with previously accepted understanding or interpretations of an issue, we should always modify our understanding, or at least question it.

If one looks at the history of droughts and floods in Australia, there is strong evidence that the current drought and heat waves are not unprecedented. Studies of ice cores from the Antarctic have provided a 1,000 year record of droughts in South West Australia. 8 mega droughts have been identified, 6 of which occurred before before the industrial revolution, and the worst one occurred in the 12th century A.D. and lasted 39 years.

Newspaper records from the 19th century describe terrible heat waves that killed many people in Australia. It's reasonable to question the accuracy of the reported temperatures which were as high as 129 Degrees F (or 54 degrees C). They might be off by a couple of degrees compared with modern methods of taking temperature readings, but I doubt that local newspapers would get away with reporting fake news about people dying during heat waves that didn't occur.

A major problem for us all, is that so many citizens don't seem to understand that although  the damage caused by extreme weather events, whether droughts, floods, or cyclones, might be unprecedented, because of the huge increase in population, the actual severity of the extreme weather event, in terms of flood height, drought length, maximum temperatures, and so on, is very unlikely to be unprecedented.

As a result of these current bush fires in Australia, there's going to be a major push to persuade the government to drastically reduce our CO2 emissions, because of a deluded belief that CO2 is the culprit.

If the Media would spend more time reporting on the history of climate change and extreme weather events, we'd stand a better chance of protecting ourselves from the very likely repetition of such events.

Anyone in the future wondering what happened to Australia, here's how it worked.
The leaders of both major parties were not going to do anything that would risk their wallets or the income of their mates in the mining industry. So step one was climate change denial. Step two was yes it's happening but we're not the cause. The current prime minister Scott Morrison is now at step two. Step three was yes, we caused it but now it's too late to do anything.
That's the plan. The Australian public went along with it.
The opinions of Ray and other supporters are a great evil in the world.
The other side of the same coin are the mega wealthy suppporters of people like Greta Thunberg. Their plan is to panic the world into accepting a much lower standard of living while the wealthy get to keep their extravagant lifestyle. Watch to see which country is the first to spend billions of taxpayers' money on solar arrays. Billions that go straight into the pockets of the government's wealthy mates.
On the whole the green energy movement is a con. I certainly don't begrudge people their electric cars, but globally it's little more than virtue signalling. There are not enough resources in the Earth to allow even one medium sized European country to convert their fleet to electric given the current technology. The industry is based on the exploitation of poor countires and the workers in the mines are fundamentally slave labour.

For what it's worth, I was brought up in Melbourne and remember watching the Dandenong Ranges go up in smoke in the late sixties. I was in the middle of the Ash Wednesday fires in 1983. My parents, grandparents and great grandparents all were country people and knew about bushfires. The current fires are not getting gradually worse.
They are orders of magnitude worse.
Unmatched in the historical record. Where I now live here in New Zealand we are over 2,000 km from Australia. Last week there was so much smoke in the upper atmosphere that the street lights went on and it was too dark to see indoors without lights. The forests that have burned will not regenerate, The creatures that lived there will go extinct.
In New South Wales there are towns slowly shutting up shop because the farms that supprted them no longer have stock. The sustained heat has made the animals sterile.
I haven't got the figures in front of me, but I suspect the fires in the Amazon, Indonesia, the Congo and the Siberian wilderness are worse.
Cheery thought for the day.
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Rob C

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1214 on: January 06, 2020, 05:37:46 pm »

Anyone in the future wondering what happened to Australia, here's how it worked.
The leaders of both major parties were not going to do anything that would risk their wallets or the income of their mates in the mining industry. So step one was climate change denial. Step two was yes it's happening but we're not the cause. The current prime minister Scott Morrison is now at step two. Step three was yes, we caused it but now it's too late to do anything.
That's the plan. The Australian public went along with it.
The opinions of Ray and other supporters are a great evil in the world.
The other side of the same coin are the mega wealthy suppporters of people like Greta Thunberg. Their plan is to panic the world into accepting a much lower standard of living while the wealthy get to keep their extravagant lifestyle. Watch to see which country is the first to spend billions of taxpayers' money on solar arrays. Billions that go straight into the pockets of the government's wealthy mates.
On the whole the green energy movement is a con. I certainly don't begrudge people their electric cars, but globally it's little more than virtue signalling. There are not enough resources in the Earth to allow even one medium sized European country to convert their fleet to electric given the current technology. The industry is based on the exploitation of poor countires and the workers in the mines are fundamentally slave labour.

For what it's worth, I was brought up in Melbourne and remember watching the Dandenong Ranges go up in smoke in the late sixties. I was in the middle of the Ash Wednesday fires in 1983. My parents, grandparents and great grandparents all were country people and knew about bushfires. The current fires are not getting gradually worse.
They are orders of magnitude worse.
Unmatched in the historical record. Where I now live here in New Zealand we are over 2,000 km from Australia. Last week there was so much smoke in the upper atmosphere that the street lights went on and it was too dark to see indoors without lights. The forests that have burned will not regenerate, The creatures that lived there will go extinct.
In New South Wales there are towns slowly shutting up shop because the farms that supprted them no longer have stock. The sustained heat has made the animals sterile.
I haven't got the figures in front of me, but I suspect the fires in the Amazon, Indonesia, the Congo and the Siberian wilderness are worse.
Cheery thought for the day.

Well put.

And that doesn't include Africa, where people are starving to death because of failed rains and dying earth as well as finding it through political ambitions of fellow Africans. 

I suggest that we neglect African hardships at our (western) peril: we already have attempted immigration that's too great to handle - it can only get worse as the struggle to eat increases. Folks don't risk their lives and those of their infants on old inflatables because they want to make a fast buck. They have smartphones too, and Internet: they know thousands have died trying the great escape. What they flee must be as bad as the journey's risk, at the very least.

I've just been watching videos of Jay Leno driving around in 800 hp cars. Very nice, until you think what that means in terms of pollution. I think the time's coming when anything above two litres will be internationally banned.

Regarding electric cars: quite apart from the materials for the batteries and the efficient wiring, places like Mallorca already have power problems both summer and winter: in summer the tourist numbers increase the draw on available supplies and in winter, though almost devoid of tourist hordes, the useless, no, non-existent home insulation has interiors feeling colder than outside, with electricity running way under the power you are expecting. I'm no cook, but the difference in the way the cooker works in winter is noticeable. If you burn wood, that's also extortionate and locally very polluting. The winter is also the period when it's legal to burn garden and farm rubbish. Some days the smell of smoke is so bad you can't do your washing because the sheets would stink for a week.

Again, whether or not one believes Man is causing climate change, it's undeniable that he isn't helping much to reduce it. I never understand the philosophy that goes: nature also causes climate change; let's forget it, it's happened before. Yes, it's happened before from natural events such as asteroid strike that apparently wiped out much of life, and volcanic activity that is also outwith our control. Does that mean that it makes any sense not to try to do the best that humans can, at least in the direction of not increasing the problem?

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1215 on: January 06, 2020, 06:15:49 pm »

... The opinions of Ray and other supporters are a great evil in the world...

Oh, get a life, mate!  >:(

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1216 on: January 06, 2020, 07:16:00 pm »

Oh, get a life, mate!  >:(

While others are trying to make it harder?

https://oec.world/en/profile/country/aus/
Exports
In 2017 Australia exported $243B, making it the 20th largest exporter in the world. During the last five years the exports of Australia have decreased at an annualized rate of -0.6%, from $249B in 2012 to $243B in 2017. The most recent exports are led by Iron Ore which represent 19.8% of the total exports of Australia, followed by Coal Briquettes, which account for 19.3%.

Which kind of explains the (short-sighted) stance of Australian politics.

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Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1217 on: January 06, 2020, 09:47:55 pm »

While others are trying to make it harder?

https://oec.world/en/profile/country/aus/
Exports
In 2017 Australia exported $243B, making it the 20th largest exporter in the world. During the last five years the exports of Australia have decreased at an annualized rate of -0.6%, from $249B in 2012 to $243B in 2017. The most recent exports are led by Iron Ore which represent 19.8% of the total exports of Australia, followed by Coal Briquettes, which account for 19.3%.

Which kind of explains the (short-sighted) stance of Australian politics.



I agree.  Australians are thoughtless and greedy.  They should stop exporting their coal and let American export theirs and take the hit ethically.  :)

David Sutton

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1218 on: January 06, 2020, 10:13:28 pm »

Oh, get a life, mate!  >:(

Thank you for your kind suggestion but I assure you I have one already and very nice it is too.
I'm raising a question around the common response to awkward ideas being "well, everyone has the right  to their own opinions".
Of course, that has never been true. Most countries will not tolerate opinions that child exploitation is okay, for example. You will be aware in your own country that some opinions that were quite normal 50 years ago would now get you in deep poo. And if we travel in non-western cultures it's politic to keep our mouths shut on some topics. Life saving, even.
I'm suggesting that while the right to certain opinions may be cultural, and change with time, there are some things that we have no right to believe. And yes, I'm aware of the internal contradiction here.
I've been looking for a word to describe those who have power or influence and who have known about anthropogenic climate change but continue to deny it publicly. Governmental leaders in other words. Today the nearest word I can find is "perverts".
My belief is that climate change deniers are supporting this lot. I wouldn't want to see their ideas banned, fat lot of good that would do anyway, but I think I may start calling them out on this. I suspect that the only effect this will have will be to get me into hot water again, but I think I'd rather run the risk of being wrong in 10 years time than to have said nothing.
Such is life.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #1219 on: January 06, 2020, 10:46:31 pm »

Thank you for your kind suggestion but I assure you I have one already and very nice it is too.
I'm raising a question around the common response to awkward ideas being "well, everyone has the right  to their own opinions".
Of course, that has never been true. Most countries will not tolerate opinions that child exploitation is okay, for example. You will be aware in your own country that some opinions that were quite normal 50 years ago would now get you in deep poo. And if we travel in non-western cultures it's politic to keep our mouths shut on some topics. Life saving, even.
I'm suggesting that while the right to certain opinions may be cultural, and change with time, there are some things that we have no right to believe. And yes, I'm aware of the internal contradiction here.
I've been looking for a word to describe those who have power or influence and who have known about anthropogenic climate change but continue to deny it publicly. Governmental leaders in other words. Today the nearest word I can find is "perverts".
My belief is that climate change deniers are supporting this lot. I wouldn't want to see their ideas banned, fat lot of good that would do anyway, but I think I may start calling them out on this. I suspect that the only effect this will have will be to get me into hot water again, but I think I'd rather run the risk of being wrong in 10 years time than to have said nothing.
Such is life.

David, American free speech is constitutionally protected.  It's been one of our cherished rights.  Nazis are allowed to march in the street.  Not because they get much support.  But the right to free speech is so constitutionally ingrained in most Americans, that we allow them their rights as perverted most believe they are.  The argument is that let the fresh air of sunlight be the cure.  Opposite thought is the sunlight.  Ideas should stand or not through debate and thought.  But we should not close down ideas just because you have different beliefs. Otherwise you can justify book burning and burning witches at the stake, something that is very common in the world.  It's a slippery slope once you start shutting down speech one side feels is offensive.  Pretty soon, political thought and religious practices are shut down and people are put in jail for their thinking.  All under the guise of some people just knowing what is right. 
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