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Author Topic: Brexit Encore  (Read 149239 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #420 on: June 24, 2019, 08:20:01 am »

Please read the answers to your previous question. It has been like that in Europe.

I don't understand your point.  Europe isn't like America as each nation there is sovereign.  Each nation's peoples are different, speak different languages, have different customs, DNA, different political parties, etc.

Rob C

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #421 on: June 24, 2019, 08:46:14 am »

"In 2017, there were 27.4 million foreign-born persons in the U.S. labor force, comprising 17.1 percent of the total."
Note: An American employer has to sponsor a foreigner to get a work visa.  I once did a favor for a cab driver I knew (I think from some Middle Eastern country) and looking for a job.  I helped him get that paper and secure a job here.  30-40 years ago.  Nice fellow. 
https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/forbrn.pdf


Comparing inter-State freedom in America to Inter-nation access in Europe is not the same.  All 50 American states are in America.  States are constitutionally forbidden to set up "home rules" for their own residents. After all, we're all Americans.  On the other hand, it doesn;t seem that "unfair" to expect countries to limit immigration of foreigners who might take the work of nationals.  How would a Parisian feel he couldn't get a job in France because a Londoner was hired in his place at a slightly lesser salary?  That's the kind of issue that's going on in America right now with a lot of foreign engineers being hired in Silicon Valley at quite excellent salaries but not as high as they would have to pay Americans.  "Illegals" take the job of Americans at the lower end of the pay range as well, one of the reasons Americans complain about illegal immigration coming from south of our border. 


Doesn't similar things happen in Europe?  Do EU countries complain about that too?

The people who attract the hatred of some of the working-class Brits are people who come to Britain prepared to work in lowly paid jobs that the indigenous Brit will not accept because he's often better off on the dole. Those jobs would never be filled, and as with your own MacJobbers, only students or the otherwise desperate apply for them. Who wants to pick strawberries, make beds, wash dishes in restaurants? But how would western society function without those willing to accept that the work is low-grade? Raise wages to higher levels and many restaurants and hotels would have to close for ever: customers could not afford to frequent them. I've already touched on an insider view on what would happen to the British health service if all foreign employees were made to feel unwelcome, and, worse, barred. As with you and your Mexicans, South Americans et al. you need 'em to keep the wheels going round, however much some may hate their presence. Some of the Brits above the working-class, who may have a broad enough perspective of life outwith the market town or industrial unit, often share the hatred of the foreigner. In some ways, it could be said that their state of mind is even less understandable: they must know the consequences, surely, or are dreams of a Phoenix British Empire still alive and well in some schools and families?

Regarding Paris: it's like London: so bloody expensive that without a big comany sending you across to work there on their behalf and on their payroll, those top jobs are only going to be filled by the best qualified people those companies have! Those folks sure don't work for peanuts - anywhere.

I can't think of a person I know who is highly qualified, who would work for less than he can get, regardless of location. Only artists, photographers and sundry other mad dogs do that kind of thing.

Rob
« Last Edit: June 24, 2019, 08:50:09 am by Rob C »
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Rob C

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #422 on: June 24, 2019, 09:02:28 am »

I don't understand your point.  Europe isn't like America as each nation there is sovereign.  Each nation's peoples are different, speak different languages, have different customs, DNA, different political parties, etc.

Everybody has different DNA.

As has been pointed out, the European deal created the equivalent of your States without sacrificing sovereignty. That you don't know this is not surprising: thousands of people have been attempting to pretend that sovereignty was lost. Real fake news. Common rules were agreed. Some countries went more deeply into them than others; Britain was so far out on exceptions that it was virtually already reaping more than it sowed. But yet it wasn't enough for the Empire romantics.

How many different languages go the rounds in America? I believe more now speak Spanish than English...

In the European setup, English was a lingua franca, and few were left unaware of what was being discussed; all those headphones were not just there to help spend money!

Alan Klein

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #423 on: June 24, 2019, 09:03:32 am »

The people who attract the hatred of some of the working-class Brits are people who come to Britain prepared to work in lowly paid jobs that the indigenous Brit will not accept because he's often better off on the dole. Those jobs would never be filled, and as with your own MacJobbers, only students or the otherwise desperate apply for them. Who wants to pick strawberries, make beds, wash dishes in restaurants? But how would western society function without those willing to accept that the work is low-grade? Raise wages to higher levels and many restaurants and hotels would have to close for ever: customers could not afford to frequent them. I've already touched on an insider view on what would happen to the British health service if all foreign employees were made to feel unwelcome, and, worse, barred. As with you and your Mexicans, South Americans et al. you need 'em to keep the wheels going round, however much some may hate their presence. Some of the Brits above the working-class, who may have a broad enough perspective of life outwith the market town or industrial unit, often share the hatred of the foreigner. In some ways, it could be said that their state of mind is even less understandable: they must know the consequences, surely, or are dreams of a Phoenix British Empire still alive and well in some schools and families?

Regarding Paris: it's like London: so bloody expensive that without a big comany sending you across to work there on their behalf and on their payroll, those top jobs are only going to be filled by the best qualified people those companies have! Those folks sure don't work for peanuts - anywhere.

I can't think of a person I know who is highly qualified, who would work for less than he can get, regardless of location. Only artists, photographers and sundry other mad dogs do that kind of thing.

Rob


Problem in America is that many illegals wind up on the "dole" too costing taxpayers a lot of money too.  They get free services, medical care, their kids go to free government run schools that the taxpayers are paying for.  2/3rds of my property taxes are for educating kids and schools.   (It costs taxpayers $18,000 per kid just for schooling here in New Jersey).  So the cost of eating out also includes hidden taxes being paid for these people.  Without their labor, my restaurant and food bills might be higher.  But lower taxes would more than make up for it.  The issue is also political.  Democrats want to make them "legal" so they can get their votes and change the American political system forever. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #424 on: June 24, 2019, 09:13:04 am »

Everybody has different DNA.

As has been pointed out, the European deal created the equivalent of your States without sacrificing sovereignty. That you don't know this is not surprising: thousands of people have been attempting to pretend that sovereignty was lost. Real fake news. Common rules were agreed. Some countries went more deeply into them than others; Britain was so far out on exceptions that it was virtually already reaping more than it sowed. But yet it wasn't enough for the Empire romantics.

How many different languages go the rounds in America? I believe more now speak Spanish than English...

In the European setup, English was a lingua franca, and few were left unaware of what was being discussed; all those headphones were not just there to help spend money!


I figured that would stir some things up. :)  Actually, I was thinking of the blonde Scandinavian vs. the dark skinned Mediterranean.  Vive la difference. :)




I'm not the one saying sovereignty was lost. I don;t know enough about the EU and that issue.  However, apparently a majority of Brits said that when they voted for Brexit.  Also, language is very important in a country.  I believe one language pulls a people together.  The "second" language of Spanish in America will eventually help tear America apart as did French almost in Canada when French speaking Quebec province tried to split away from English speaking Canada a few years back.  One people should have one language although I wonder sometimes about my Brooklyn born wife.  :)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #425 on: June 24, 2019, 10:27:57 am »

... How many different languages go the rounds in America? I believe more now speak Spanish than English...

Rob, of the many fine qualities you have, being a clairvoyant is the one I envy the most ;)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #426 on: June 24, 2019, 01:48:08 pm »

Alan Klein

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #427 on: June 24, 2019, 02:34:00 pm »

Rob C

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #428 on: June 24, 2019, 04:12:28 pm »

Rob, of the many fine qualities you have, being a clairvoyant is the one I envy the most ;)

It's a gift.

:-)

Rob C

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #429 on: June 24, 2019, 04:17:36 pm »

A 30-year old video clip explains Brexit:

https://www.facebook.com/forgottenireland.ie/videos/944542782421736?s=581126504&v=e&sfns=mo


Yes, comedy.

And how flawed, twenty years later. Twenty years later, one discovers that it's Britain that ended up disunited more so than the others. Still accurate about the politicians, though: cynical to the core. But isn't that a prerequisite for all of them?

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #430 on: June 30, 2019, 12:23:45 pm »

A view on European immigration from a different angle - emigration (emphasis mine):

"Eastern Europe’s Emigration Crisis"

Quote
...In the last century, Eastern Europe has suffered the most dramatic population decline in recent history. According to one study, between 2013 and 2016, approximately 230,000 people left Croatia—a country with a population of only four million—for the 11 “core EU countries” of Western Europe...

...Since Latvia joined the EU, it has lost one-fifth of its population. Romania, a country that according to one organisation is due to see the most drastic population decline, has seen over three million leave the country since it joined the EU in 2007. It lost half of its doctors between 2009 and 2015, the vast majority to better-paid employ in the richer hospitals and surgeries of Western Europe, leaving its health service poorly staffed and on the brink of collapse. High mortality (including infant mortality) and low birthrates are only accelerating the decline...

https://quillette.com/2019/06/29/eastern-europes-emigration-crisis/?fbclid=IwAR0keG3g6ZcmkVYNPazANb4NcZlI-V5VoGPt9LqBar__O56ZMxqyYfy8CQg

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #431 on: June 30, 2019, 01:02:33 pm »

Just for the fun of being devil's advocate, the basis for all a lot of anti-immigration sentiment seems to be that some places should be only inhabited by fair-skinned more or less Christian people. What is the argument for this? I hope it's not historical, because in Quebec, one of the francophone partisan points of view is that the land (the actual territory) of what is now known as Quebec is francophone territory on the strength that mainly French immigrants (about 80%) have inhabited the area for 400-500 years. When indigenous people (who lived on the same dirt for 5000 years previous) simply laugh at this arrogance.

Who says that the land is yours? And who is this "you" anyway? Countries have a right to determine levels of immigration and who gets in, but for some reason the discussion does not take place in that relatively sane frame. Instead, it's mostly tribal bullshit.

On a related note, would the US be housing those children on the border in those conditions (with recent reports of abuse of various kinds) if they were white? That is, how loud would be the outcry then be?

These are longer term rhetorical questions, btw, and it is irrelevant to direct the answers to me. Whether or not I convince you (and I'm not trying to) or whether you try to convince me
is completely beside the point. I suggest the questions mostly as an examination of conscience.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #432 on: June 30, 2019, 01:24:12 pm »

... some places should be only inhabited by fair-skinned more or less Christian people....

"Should" is the typical leftist social-engineering approach. It is not a matter what should be (who's to say, anyway?) but what is.

It is also a "veni, vidi, vici" approach. Those who "laugh" at it are conquered. We won and we say the land is ours. We want to keep it that way. We do not want a weaponized brownization. We might lose that battle in the coming decades, due to the left, feminists, and white sissies, but not without a fight.

Rob C

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #433 on: June 30, 2019, 02:12:40 pm »

Well, Europe was mainly white from the start - unless you want to include the offspring of those wanderers from the Rift Valley thousands of years earlier.

Quite why they wanted out I'm not sure: maybe it was climate-driven, or they couldn't buy the spears that modern tribesmen have. Of course, the elephants and rhinos and crocs were bigger, not to mention the spiders and snakes, so human optimism must, even then, have suggested taking a trip.

But that was a long time ago. Colour and religion are the obvious first barriers between people, and for every liberal (?) who tries to tell you otherwise, your eyes can't be fooled and neither your priests. (They are more likely to be able to fool more of the people more of the time, as millions of people prove every day.)

Language, of course, plays a big part too because of communication or otherwise; wasn't that big a problem in France at the end of WW2, though, as many smiling GIs and Tommies were happy to discover. Vive la France! Pretty, foreign women suffer even less because of language: somebody always tries to help.

Nationality is like a form of extended family, before extended family became to mean something else. Nobody is tickled pink to imagine some alien creature is going to bed and wed their daughter, and that's the nub of the whole goddam problem: folks don't want to dilute the line, however messy it may be already. It's so blindingly obvious, why can't it just be faced and accepted for the fact that it is? It's nothing new or revolutionary, just victim of contemporary, forced open-mindedness in aspects of folks' lives where folks don't want to be open-minded, thank you very much indeed.

Alan Klein

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #434 on: June 30, 2019, 03:36:02 pm »

Just for the fun of being devil's advocate, the basis for all a lot of anti-immigration sentiment seems to be that some places should be only inhabited by fair-skinned more or less Christian people. What is the argument for this? I hope it's not historical, because in Quebec, one of the francophone partisan points of view is that the land (the actual territory) of what is now known as Quebec is francophone territory on the strength that mainly French immigrants (about 80%) have inhabited the area for 400-500 years. When indigenous people (who lived on the same dirt for 5000 years previous) simply laugh at this arrogance.

Who says that the land is yours? And who is this "you" anyway? Countries have a right to determine levels of immigration and who gets in, but for some reason the discussion does not take place in that relatively sane frame. Instead, it's mostly tribal bullshit.

On a related note, would the US be housing those children on the border in those conditions (with recent reports of abuse of various kinds) if they were white? That is, how loud would be the outcry then be?

These are longer term rhetorical questions, btw, and it is irrelevant to direct the answers to me. Whether or not I convince you (and I'm not trying to) or whether you try to convince me
is completely beside the point. I suggest the questions mostly as an examination of conscience.



America welcomes immigrants as their grandparents once were. Unlike most countries, we're an immigrant nation, so there's a place for everyone.  In the end, we want immigrants to come in legally, as over one million do every year. 

Last night I went to a comedy club in New Brunswick, New Jersey called the Stress Factory.  All the comedians were Muslim including the Arab girl who introduced all the comedians and was pretty funny herself.  The mainliner was Mo Amer who was born in Kuwait to Palestinian parents, and came to America as an asylum-seeker after the first Gulf War and became a US citizen in 2009. He saw his assignment as a golden opportunity, both as a Muslim, an American and a comedian.  The guy was very funny, used self deprecation as well as making fun of how Americans sometime interact with him.  My wife and I were there with another couple.  Every time I looked over at my friend, he was not smiling.  I thought he wasn't getting Mo's jokes.  It turns out my 82 year-old friend just couldn't hear through his hearing aid.  Oh well.

Here's a sample of his work.  Watch it - it's pretty funny. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QviPgC3Vmms

Alan Klein

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #435 on: June 30, 2019, 03:40:37 pm »

PS,  There were a bunch of Muslims in the audience including women with hijabs including Palestinians, Afghans, Pakistanis, Lebanese, etc who were getting in on the fun but mostly plain old white, non-Muslim people like me who laughed it up and thought he was great.   

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #436 on: June 30, 2019, 04:44:44 pm »

"Should" is the typical leftist social-engineering approach. It is not a matter what should be (who's to say, anyway?) but what is.

It's so much fun seeing you attach importance to a word so that you can end up at your default conclusion, which is to tangentially insult someone by calling them socialist.
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Rob C

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #437 on: June 30, 2019, 04:58:44 pm »

PS,  There were a bunch of Muslims in the audience including women with hijabs including Palestinians, Afghans, Pakistanis, Lebanese, etc who were getting in on the fun but mostly plain old white, non-Muslim people like me who laughed it up and thought he was great.   


Oh, that's all right then, people were laughing and having a good time. Remind anyone of black tap dancers and musicians doing their self-mocking numbers for "laughs" before the 70s? Even Satchmo wasn't beyond the rolling eyes thing at times, as if he needed it. I guess fame never makes you secure enough when you have the background.

:-)

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #438 on: June 30, 2019, 05:08:25 pm »

PS,  There were a bunch of Muslims in the audience including women with hijabs including Palestinians, Afghans, Pakistanis, Lebanese, etc who were getting in on the fun but mostly plain old white, non-Muslim people like me who laughed it up and thought he was great.   

The province of Quebec recently passed a law that forbids the wearing of religious symbols by anyone employed by the province. The criteria is quite wide in that it applies to teachers who are actually employed by school boards that are sanctioned by the provincial education department so the legislation does not strictly apply to only civil servant employees, i.e., those that work directly in government administration. I believe, for example, that is also applies to city bus drivers, for example, but I'm not 100% about that. One things it means is that Sikhs cannot work in some occupations, such as the police for example. That last one is odd because Sikhs are allowed in the federal RCMP force. Many have distinguished themselves in the military as well, but in Quebec, they need not apply for some jobs.

They worded it in a very general way but it is obviously directed at the wearing of head gear by muslim women. This is interesting in many ways.

The first and obvious one is the very notion that the government has the right to tell people how to dress. Personally speaking, in this vein I think they should outlaw hoodies on teenagers because it interferes with me picking them out of police line-ups.

The second is the timing. I wonder if they would have introduced this kind of regulation when Roman Catholic nuns still wore their old-style habits, as many of them were employed as teachers in Quebec parochial schools. This method of dress, moderation-plus, I'll call it, was pretty common among Victorian women as well. Presumably Amish women could not get jobs in the Quebec civil service, but they wisely opt out of modern society anyway.

A third way is the argument, made by my Moroccan muslim neighbour and others, is that the wearing of head gear is not a religious requirement or symbol anyway. It is only practitioners in some cultures that cover their heads, many muslim traditions do not require their women to cover their heads. So it's more and Arab or Pakistani thing than a muslim thing. This point of view may be controversial in the muslim community, for all I know.

It will be interesting to see if there will be a court challenge of the law. It has the usual supporters, which include the usual suspects who feel the need to force foreigners behave in certain ways, for some reason. My parents, post-war Italian immigrants were dis-approved of in similar ways. During the partly xenophobic rise of the francophone separatist culture in Quebec, my father used to say, "The Fascists did that." If that's not too Godwin-line for you.

Anyway, as I stated earlier, it should be possible to discuss immigration in a rational cogent way, but at the moment it isn't. Your President didn't set the tone very helpfully when he called Mexicans drug dealers and rapists. The drug dealing charge was especially bizarre, as if the reason there are illegal drugs in the US is because those nasty foreigners bring them in, as if it's a supply problem. The reason that dealers import drugs into the US is because Americans are willing to pay such high prices for them. Insofar as it is a problem in the first place, it's an American problem not a foreigner problem. But we've probably had that discussion before.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #439 on: June 30, 2019, 05:20:04 pm »

... he called Mexicans drug dealers and rapists...

He did not.

That is, plain and simple, a lie, tired trope by now, and pigheaded partisan nonsense. Deliberate distortion. Strawman.

You, of all people, who constantly plead for open-minded discussion should know that.
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