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Author Topic: Brexit Encore  (Read 85433 times)

Rob C

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Brexit Encore
« on: April 11, 2019, 05:50:42 am »

"Hey, I learned a new word: rescission. Had to go and look it up.

As for Brexit, it is on going, or so it seems. I remember starting a thread about it a few eons ago, it went viral, as folks would say today. Anyway, the GB was never truly inside the EU - different currency and border policies - so not sure what all the fuss is about ;D"

Paulo Bizarro

................


Indeed; it was uniquely able to make the most of the best parts.

Unfortunately, as the majority lives in England and not the peripheral countries of the Union, the numerical weight of old-man little englander thinking overwhelmed by just four percent. We perpetually hear about sixteen or seventeen million voting out, but the almost equal number voting in is never mentioned, making it sound as if there had been a sixteen or seventeen million majority, which in a population of around sixty million would seem convincing. But a reality of four pecent, on something so momentous and irreversible if implemented (unlike a party vote, you can't vote back in again when you find you were fed a pack of fibs)?

However, the repeated failures to reach an acceptable consensus in Parliament, beyond a huge majority refusal to "crash out" without a deal, reveals one fact: the majority of those there knows that it would be voting for a worse future for all its people, regardless of which way they had voted at the referendum. A couple of years down the line, voters would forget their own responsibilty in the matter and turn around and blame their local MP.

It's how it always works: Churchill held the country together through WW2 and was rewarded by losing power.

Who'd trust a blind majority?

Rob

Paulo Bizarro

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2019, 10:20:14 am »

Rob,

Indeed, memory is short these days, and 2 years is a long time. I heard this morning that an extension was approved until October 31st (Halloween, was that on purpose I wonder). What I find curious is the fact that the initial Brexit advocates have long exited the scene... leaving the hot potato in somebody else's hands.

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2019, 12:03:46 pm »

I hope that this has legislators all over the world re-examining the concept of 50% + 1 as being enough to determine matters of this level of importance. If I'm not mistaken, most country's constitution amendments require 2/3s majority (or something like that) as a way to make sure that people REALLY REALLY want what the change.
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KLaban

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2019, 12:22:54 pm »

+1 to everything by everybody, so far.

And I'll leave it at that for fear of loosing my cool, calling Cameron, the members of the ERG, Farage and company a bunch of ****s and regret being banned from LuLa.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 12:37:28 pm by KLaban »
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athegn

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2019, 12:50:59 pm »

KLaban +1
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BJL

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2019, 01:20:23 pm »

Indeed, the idea of making a hard-to-reverse change that is effectively at the constitutional level by just a slender simple majority of those who bothered to turn out is insanity. Consider the way other countries handle big decisions like this:
- US constitutional amendments require approval by at least 3/4 of the states.
- Australian constitutional amendments require a national-wide majority and also a majority in at least 4 of 6 states — and voting is "mandatory", so with turnout well over 90%.
- Italy often uses a system for ballot initiatives where the support of the majority of _eligible_ voters is required (though one can thus vote "no" by just staying home, opening the risk of voter intimidation by the "no" faction.)
- Some such changes require approval in two votes, separated in time by an intervening election or such.
- Super-majorities of 60% or 2/3 are also common when a clearer "consensus" for change is desirable.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2019, 01:46:06 pm »

Supermajority? in retrospect, yes.

However, a supermajority was not required when voting to join the EU either (although it turned out to be one ultimately). At this point, the problem is not the referendum result, supermajority, or the role of plebiscite. The problem is that the parliament is equally divided as the public.

Having said that, the EU was a completely different beast when the UK voted the first time.

faberryman

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2019, 01:55:29 pm »

I'm not sure what good an extension to 10/31/2019 will do. Parliament has voted three times against the existing deal which the EU said it is unwilling to renegotiate, so it will not be surprising to see a repeat performance in late October. Until then, I expect my news channel to be relatively Brexit free.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 05:12:39 pm by faberryman »
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Rob C

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2019, 03:08:45 pm »

Supermajority? in retrospect, yes.

However, a supermajority was not required when voting to join the EU either (although it turned out to be one ultimately). At this point, the problem is not the referendum result, supermajority, or the role of plebiscite. The problem is that the parliament is equally divided as the public.

Having said that, the EU was a completely different beast when the UK voted the first time.

Divided on everything except leaving without a deal.

32BT

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2019, 03:50:27 pm »

I don't mean to be the partypoop, but I actually like the way this pans out. The original vote wasn't so much about being part of the EU, but whether being part of the EU makes a single nation stronger to protect its self-identity in a group relative to globalisation and the worldstage. Because that was the promise. In retrospect it primarily became a large monster with too much regulation and the quick addition of too many weak links so that the original promise never held. The EU simply became itself that "global" outside force that crushes the self-identity of nations.

And this just becomes very clear now. And the longer they drag this out, the more evident it is. The EU should have moved to England immediately and help them solve the problems and, if neccesary, accommodate the brexit, thereby showing the strength of cooperation. See what they do instead?

 I frankly believe that for several nations currently the EU is not beneficial at all, and the more chaos ensues, the better. Not beneficial to individuals, but in end, better for everyone, because the EU in its current form isn't beneficial to individuals either.

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mbaginy

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2019, 04:36:19 pm »

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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2019, 05:12:22 pm »

I don’t understand why the Brits have to make it all so complicated? Just crash out of EU and build the damn wall with Ireland. Done!

Rob C

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2019, 05:22:39 pm »

I don't mean to be the partypoop, but I actually like the way this pans out. The original vote wasn't so much about being part of the EU, but whether being part of the EU makes a single nation stronger to protect its self-identity in a group relative to globalisation and the worldstage. Because that was the promise. In retrospect it primarily became a large monster with too much regulation and the quick addition of too many weak links so that the original promise never held. The EU simply became itself that "global" outside force that crushes the self-identity of nations.

And this just becomes very clear now. And the longer they drag this out, the more evident it is. The EU should have moved to England immediately and help them solve the problems and, if neccesary, accommodate the brexit, thereby showing the strength of cooperation. See what they do instead?

 I frankly believe that for several nations currently the EU is not beneficial at all, and the more chaos ensues, the better. Not beneficial to individuals, but in end, better for everyone, because the EU in its current form isn't beneficial to individuals either.



That's a very generous assessment, Oscar, but I think a mistaken one. It was about hatred of foreigners i.e. non-native anglophones (having said which, anti-Americanism is also strong in some quarters), but mostly a fear of waves of migrants, mostly of the Moslem persuasion, and that harks back to the deeds done in the immediate post-war years when 1947 saw the Independence of India and the killings, riots and train hold-up massacres of people fleeing to the new, twin-country of Pakistan. Some got lost and went to London and Luton. Combined with the West Indies boatloads disembarking and moving to London, the country saw the birth of what led to the "Rivers of blood" speech that today seems less than fantasy. Where America reaps the price of slavery, the UK the price of empire. As a kid newly back in the UK during the 50s, I never heard of drugs in the local reality; the only ones I knew about were to be found in American detective books. Today, all kids know all there is to know on the topic. Rule the dreadlocks.

In essence, the British migrant problem is not a new one from Europe, but a much older version. How ironic to watch some of those very new Britons condemn the possibility of others moving to Britain today...

Yes, the situation has meant that member states lose some autonomy, but so you do the moment you join any club that has rules, and without rules, the situation remains, literally, lawless, which is not good.

Some Brits get excited over basic things such as identity cards, seeing them as some threat of 1984. I carry one everyday, and it has been priceless on each of the occasions when I have lost consciousness and the medics arrive to help me. As vital my medical card that instantly grants me (so far!) access to a hospital bed. My driving licence, too, is always carried and one faces a fine for not having it if stopped for some reason. Last I knew, in the UK you had only to turn up at a cop shop somewhere within three days to show it.... who is sloppy now, who has the mañana syndrome?

My first Vogue shoot took me to Amsterdam; I was amazed to find that everybody I met spoke almost perfect American. It was an eye-opener to the insular nation we, the Brits, were. Yes, we travelled the world in our wooden sailing ships, but we remained as closed as it is possible to be. Those fluent in other languages are pretty rare. We studied French in school, but the only French that we ended up being able to understand came from the lips of fellow Brits. Confront us with a real French person and we had no bloody idea what was being said. Reading was something different, and why I was able to enjoy French PHOTO.

A big part of the problem is that migrants of all colours represent, at the very least, alternatives to blame for things that go wrong. They get accused of stealing jobs... do folks think that foreign workers are only to found in low-paid manual labour? Many of those people are very highly educated and find work because companies and governments need them to fill voids.

One could write all night about this topic, but in the end, logic has little to do with emotion, fear and basic ignorance and when that is cynically exploited by politicians pandering to said fears, sense loses the argument. That is not to say that I don't understand the emotions that arise with every new temple or mosque that gets built in "our" notionally Christian country; the French understand that even better.

Rob C

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2019, 05:26:58 pm »

I don’t understand why the Brits have to make it all so complicated? Just crash out of EU and build the damn wall with Ireland. Done!

Wall with Ireland? Slobodan, we know all about sectarian warfare, murders and explosions. Staying in Europe is worth it if only to prevent that likelihood rearing its head yet again, and it certainly would, almost immediately. Warning rumblings have already been sounded.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2019, 05:28:11 pm »

... I actually like the way this pans out...

+1

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #15 on: April 11, 2019, 05:41:41 pm »

... The EU should have moved to England immediately and help them solve the problems and, if neccesary, accommodate the brexit, thereby showing the strength of cooperation. See what they do instead? ...

Check the speech Dr. Alice Weidel gave in the European Parliament, reflecting more or less the same sentiment:

https://www.facebook.com/1314407115329126/posts/1650688605034307?sfns=mo

32BT

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2019, 04:57:00 am »


In essence, the British migrant problem is not a new one from Europe, but a much older version. How ironic to watch some of those very new Britons condemn the possibility of others moving to Britain today...

Yes, the situation has meant that member states lose some autonomy, but so you do the moment you join any club that has rules, and without rules, the situation remains, literally, lawless, which is not good.


If your country consistently belonged in the top 10 wealthiest nations, guess what happens when you apply the principle of distribution of wealth with too many weaker member states? What happens is exactly what you see happening now where the average wage and pension will either no longer be indexed or will even be lowered, while the cost of living very apparently does not follow the trend. In fact, what we used to import cheaply from elsewhere, becomes equally expensive as the source countries become wealthier.

So, the middle class becomes slightly poorer, the struggle of the poor to make ends meet becomes more strenuous, and next you introduce refugees and migrants with EU mandated and EU subsidized pampering, literally taking away privileges from native citizens. (Reprioritizing social housing waiting lists, for example).

Then you ask "the average citizen" if they want to belong to the EU...

Germany, having failed at due diligence when spending billions, bankrupted an entire member state and insists on dismantling assets. Guess who now controls key trade routes into the EU? Guess what happens at the other, original "thriving" harbor cities in the EU? Meanwhile the average Greek goes under. Ask them how that EU membership is working out for them.

Add countries that are known for thriving corruption. Who really believes corruption was suddenly solved after generations and generations of it being the de facto standard trade method?

Take 9 wealthy nations and add a 10th weaker member, and the lot will probably get stronger.
Take 9 wealthy nations and add 16 unknowns, well...

But, oh wait, we'll give those 16 unknowns voting rights by size. Let's "ask" the average dutchy by referendum what they think of that. Oh, they disagree? Let's not ask them then, and by the way: the EU openly thinks that the dutch government isn't doing enough to take the official EU standpoint.

Yeah, that'll be the day: a government, a people's representative entity, telling me how to vote, and when we collectively vote differently, we're supposed to trust them to properly represent the will of the people back in the EU. The EU consistently ignores the signals that should tell them they are on the wrong track. Start doing something differently, or suffer desintegration.

Yeah, I love that Brexit referendum. It's like a big f*****g RED traffic light and the EU is merely speeding its way toward running it.


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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2019, 05:19:45 am »

Of course the EU is far from perfect. But the early promoters of Brexit fed a bunch of lies and false promises to people. 3 years after, at least some voters have realized that they were lied to.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2019, 08:19:46 am »

... But the early promoters of Brexit fed a bunch of lies and false promises to people...

You mean only the Leavers were allowed to speak?

Rob C

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #19 on: April 12, 2019, 11:41:15 am »

You mean only the Leavers were allowed to speak?

Farage dominated the airspace as did the comically photogenic ragmop guy who has just had a haircut so as to look like a reasonable prospective leadership candidate... The printed press were all for leaving and you just need to think of Murdoch and revenge to figure some things out for youself, and the inherent danger in allowing your - prettty much uncontrolled - media to fall into the hands of foreign citizens with axes agleam.

But still, Oscar is right in that the internal machinations of Europe need cleaning up, as the lady in your link proclaimed. That's one thing, and might be achievable, but crashing out or leaving with a bad deal is still gonna be UK suicide, however you look at it. If Europe collapses, as in the aftermath of the war, southern Europe will become even more firmly Mafialand Inc. And that won't rest in Europe, by any means. There's much more at play here than the next five British years,

Rob
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