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Author Topic: After Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. And The WINNAH is FUUUJIIII !!! )  (Read 22540 times)

eronald

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Re: Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. GFX 50R "travel compact")
« Reply #120 on: September 12, 2018, 08:22:16 PM »

I donít think Fuji care about Phase. A GFX 50R will cost about as much as a Phase 150 lenscap.

 ;D

Edmund

Y'all seen the update about the 50R and 100S *both* being announced on Sept 25th?

Makes sense. They wouldn't have discounted the existing 50S so heavily if the new 100S was not imminent. Clearly trying to sell off existing stock before this one drops.

Plus Phase have forced their hand - the IQ4-150 is tempting people and draining their wallets, so time to make the 100S public, and entice people to hold out, even if it's not arriving till 2019.

50R looks great there, though I wish it were a 100R!
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narikin

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Re: Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. GFX 50R "travel compact")
« Reply #121 on: September 12, 2018, 08:50:04 PM »

I donít think Fuji care about Phase. A GFX 50R will cost about as much as a Phase 150 lenscap.

 ;D

Edmund

The GFX100S could well see a price bump from 50S. Though it will be great if it doesn't!

The Phase/Fuji maths from my end: spend ~20k for an IQ3 to IQ4 upgrade, OR spend 7-8k to get new tech BSI sensor benefits (plus IBIS?) - hmmm...  Sell your IQ3-100 for an acceptable price, and it's a no brainer: a free update to new tech for zero cost? Very tempting, depending on when the 100S is a reality.

If you don't have an IQ at all, and were buying into MF from ground floor, then, I'd only be looking at the Fuji.
If you had the $ for a high Mp FF mirrorless system, say 3-4k, I'd look hard at the 50R, over Sony or Canon or Nikon.

Fuji seem on a roll, and this could be the major news of Photokina season.
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E.J. Peiker

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Re: Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. GFX 50R "travel compact")
« Reply #122 on: September 13, 2018, 05:24:15 AM »


The Phase/Fuji maths from my end: spend ~20k for an IQ3 to IQ4 upgrade, OR spend 7-8k to get new tech BSI sensor benefits (plus IBIS?) - hmmm...  Sell your IQ3-100 for an acceptable price, and it's a no brainer: a free update to new tech for zero cost? Very tempting, depending on when the 100S is a reality.

The biggest issue for me in doing this is lack of Capture One Support for the Fuji.  I'm still hoping that this changes now that Phase is out of the cropped medium format business...
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Paul2660

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Re: Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. GFX 50R "travel compact")
« Reply #123 on: September 13, 2018, 07:38:24 AM »

I would not count on P1 ever supporting the Fuji.  When the 100MP is announced (whenever), both Fuji and H1 will have a solution with it.  Sure it's cropped 44 x 33, but it's still MF and a very serious competition for P1.  Especially if any form of on chip stabilization is available.  Many seem to feel IBIS is not a big deal, to me it is.  Especially based on Fuji's implementation with the X-H1. 

P1 has not yet made any announcements towards a mirrorless solution, maybe they just don't plan on one, but if they do, then the entire chip issue will come back to play.

P1 has stated that the smaller chips are inferior to the larger ones.  But last fall the only way to get true color was the trichromatic back.  The new 150Mp is back to the standard bayer pattern (if I read the announcements correctly).  So until P1 announces a mirrorless I guess the 44 x 33 chips are inferior.

The only thing I have seen on the 150MP back is that it's apparent that the BSI chip does much better with color cast on tech lenses, impressively.  I assume it will also handle crosstalk and saturation loss on shifts better also.

Paul C
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eronald

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Re: Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. GFX 50R "travel compact")
« Reply #124 on: September 13, 2018, 08:00:39 AM »

I would not count on P1 ever supporting the Fuji.  When the 100MP is announced (whenever), both Fuji and H1 will have a solution with it.  Sure it's cropped 44 x 33, but it's still MF and a very serious competition for P1.  Especially if any form of on chip stabilization is available.  Many seem to feel IBIS is not a big deal, to me it is.  Especially based on Fuji's implementation with the X-H1. 

P1 has not yet made any announcements towards a mirrorless solution, maybe they just don't plan on one, but if they do, then the entire chip issue will come back to play.

P1 has stated that the smaller chips are inferior to the larger ones.  But last fall the only way to get true color was the trichromatic back.  The new 150Mp is back to the standard bayer pattern (if I read the announcements correctly).  So until P1 announces a mirrorless I guess the 44 x 33 chips are inferior.

The only thing I have seen on the 150MP back is that it's apparent that the BSI chip does much better with color cast on tech lenses, impressively.  I assume it will also handle crosstalk and saturation loss on shifts better also.

Paul C

Paul, the new crop 100Mp chip from Sony is BSI too, as can be seen from the Sony roadmap link referenced in the updating first post on this thread.

The rumors of a Fuji native TS solution are there, and the media drumup surrounding the impending GFX 50R is very insistent, indicating that Fuji is putting real muscle behind this release. The company has good distribution and a strong domestic market in Japan, which means they can afford low margins.

As chip deals are usually based on quantities, and on production yields, I expect Fuji will probably be able to evolve their prices downwards: GFX is a unique product and if they can price it low enough they will soon own a very lucrative place at the top of the digital photography enthusiast market.

If Hasselblad play their cards right they should be able to conserve an elegant design with few but effective features like leaf shutter, and ride on the coat-tails of Fuji's MF marketing.

It is not just this GFX series or the applauded X-T3 dSLR product, but the revival of Fuji which is the story of Photokina 2018.

Phase One has moved to Florida and is living on the dividends from Getty Oil shares :)


Edmund

« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 08:10:47 AM by eronald »
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narikin

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Re: Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. GFX 50R "travel compact")
« Reply #125 on: September 13, 2018, 09:25:08 AM »

The biggest issue for me in doing this is lack of Capture One Support for the Fuji.  I'm still hoping that this changes now that Phase is out of the cropped medium format business...

Agreed. I would miss C1's amazing color too much to use Lightroom or whatever.

That said, the hacks to process GFX files on C1 will only get better, automated even. Phase does support this new gen 100mp BSI sensor, as they use it themselves in one of their aerial cameras, just not this camera. So you can trick C1 into processing the files, but what you can't do is tether. That may be a deal breaker for many. (not me, don't work tethered)

The 100mp GFX is such a threat to Phase's core business, I can't see them supporting it ever. Love to be wrong though!
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narikin

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Re: Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. GFX 50R "travel compact")
« Reply #126 on: September 13, 2018, 09:29:17 AM »

P1 has not yet made any announcements towards a mirrorless solution, maybe they just don't plan on one, but if they do, then the entire chip issue will come back to play.

Yes, it is strange there was not an XF2 camera announcement, to go with the new IQ4 backs. Maybe this is a sign they are working on something? Or maybe I'm wishing on a star..!


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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. GFX 50R "travel compact")
« Reply #127 on: September 13, 2018, 10:25:38 AM »

Hi Paul,

Your analysis is interesting to read. My take is that the GFX is developed around the 44x33 mm sensor. I would guess that the GFX100s will be a good match for the IQ4100 regarding image quality, at least at base ISO.

The IQ4150 is obviously a step up, but not a really big step. It is just 50% on are or 22% linear.

Would be interesting to find out about your take on the Thrichromatic. My guess is that the major benefit with the Thrichromatic was steeper IR and UV filtering compared to the normal sensor. Reduced out of focus color fringing is a very strong indication of that. Phase one could very easily upgrade the cover glass design, I would guess.

To that comes Capture One, of course. It is a bit oddball if it works with DNG files on the GFX as that would indicate that CFA design is identical between Fuji GFX and IQ350. Doug Peterson indicated that the IQ4150 did not need 'Thrichromatic'. My guess may be that the IQ4150 may have new cover glass design.

It may be that Phase One goes high end only and will not compete head on with Fuji GFX and Hasselblad X?D?

Best regards
Erik


I would not count on P1 ever supporting the Fuji.  When the 100MP is announced (whenever), both Fuji and H1 will have a solution with it.  Sure it's cropped 44 x 33, but it's still MF and a very serious competition for P1.  Especially if any form of on chip stabilization is available.  Many seem to feel IBIS is not a big deal, to me it is.  Especially based on Fuji's implementation with the X-H1. 

P1 has not yet made any announcements towards a mirrorless solution, maybe they just don't plan on one, but if they do, then the entire chip issue will come back to play.

P1 has stated that the smaller chips are inferior to the larger ones.  But last fall the only way to get true color was the trichromatic back.  The new 150Mp is back to the standard bayer pattern (if I read the announcements correctly).  So until P1 announces a mirrorless I guess the 44 x 33 chips are inferior.

The only thing I have seen on the 150MP back is that it's apparent that the BSI chip does much better with color cast on tech lenses, impressively.  I assume it will also handle crosstalk and saturation loss on shifts better also.

Paul C
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narikin

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Re: Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. GFX 50R "travel compact")
« Reply #128 on: September 13, 2018, 11:08:34 AM »

Hi Paul,

Your analysis is interesting to read. My take is that the GFX is developed around the 44x33 mm sensor. I would guess that the GFX100s will be a good match for the IQ4100 regarding image quality, at least at base ISO.


But there is no IQ4-100 - so ??  Unless I missed something, there is an aerial camera with this sensor, but not an IQback.

The IQ4150 is obviously a step up, but not a really big step. It is just 50% on are or 22% linear.

I see the jump as pretty big: Phase going from 60>80>100mp were impressive at the time, and going from 100>150mp is a much bigger leap. And that's not factoring in BSI, etc.

That said, the Fuji going from 50>100mp is huge, plus BSI plus maybe IBIS. Should be a game changer for Fuji.
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eronald

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Re: Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. GFX 50R "travel compact")
« Reply #129 on: September 13, 2018, 11:16:04 AM »

There are three ways of filtering known to me.
- The Leica S original had UV filtration built in to the lenses.
- Schott glass with a slow falloff was used in the cover glass of M9
- thin film interference filtersbare much used.

surprises often occur, Red leant it too at their expense.

Edmund

Hi Paul,

Your analysis is interesting to read. My take is that the GFX is developed around the 44x33 mm sensor. I would guess that the GFX100s will be a good match for the IQ4100 regarding image quality, at least at base ISO.

The IQ4150 is obviously a step up, but not a really big step. It is just 50% on are or 22% linear.

Would be interesting to find out about your take on the Thrichromatic. My guess is that the major benefit with the Thrichromatic was steeper IR and UV filtering compared to the normal sensor. Reduced out of focus color fringing is a very strong indication of that. Phase one could very easily upgrade the cover glass design, I would guess.

To that comes Capture One, of course. It is a bit oddball if it works with DNG files on the GFX as that would indicate that CFA design is identical between Fuji GFX and IQ350. Doug Peterson indicated that the IQ4150 did not need 'Thrichromatic'. My guess may be that the IQ4150 may have new cover glass design.

It may be that Phase One goes high end only and will not compete head on with Fuji GFX and Hasselblad X?D?

Best regards
Erik
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. GFX 50R "travel compact")
« Reply #130 on: September 13, 2018, 07:44:19 PM »

I see the jump as pretty big: Phase going from 60>80>100mp were impressive at the time, and going from 100>150mp is a much bigger leap. And that's not factoring in BSI, etc.

I think that the main practical appeal will be for tech camera users though.

Cheers,
Bernard

Doug Peterson

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Re: Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. GFX 50R "travel compact")
« Reply #131 on: September 13, 2018, 08:21:02 PM »

Doug Peterson indicated that the IQ4150 did not need 'Thrichromatic'.

Thatís not accurate. I said Phase One made this claim, and that I was skeptical and would need to do my own testing to reach my own conclusion.

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Re: Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. GFX 50R "travel compact")
« Reply #132 on: September 13, 2018, 08:33:07 PM »

But there is no IQ4-100 - so ??  Unless I missed something, there is an aerial camera with this sensor, but not an IQback.
There is, but it is not a new BSI sensor, but the 'old' Trichromatic sensor on the Infinite Platform.
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eronald

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Re: Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. GFX 50R "travel compact")
« Reply #133 on: September 13, 2018, 10:15:50 PM »

Thatís not accurate. I said Phase One made this claim, and that I was skeptical and would need to do my own testing to reach my own conclusion.

Do we have a case of split personality manifesting here? Some independent thought transitioning into independent speech?
What will come next? A praise of compact symmetrical lenses as preferable to Phase One wides?
My confidence in the immutability of the natural order of things is now shaken to the core.
We are but impermanent ants in an impermanent world, O master, and heed your enlightening words of change :)

Edmund

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« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 11:11:41 PM by eronald »
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eronald

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Re: Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. GFX 50R "travel compact")
« Reply #134 on: September 14, 2018, 08:48:30 AM »

Update about Fuji for those with no time to browse

Fuji is getting a HUGE amount of positive PR on the web, with the GFX 50R release rumors going viral; they are being presented as the company bringing MF to the masses. Paradoxically, the rumored 50R is now viewed as a sure thing, real soon now, so some nudge nudge wink must have happened, but the 100S is retreating into the fog of a confirmed product with a probable 2019 release, with an unknown featurelist.

At this point, the Fuji GFX series is clearly being moved from a minor product to corporate flagship status.

 My gut tells me to expect a few strong lens statements. A fast portrait lens, a superwide, a pancake for the 50R urban/travel crowd, and a tilt-shift announcement as a necessary PR move to confirm the camera systemís pro status. Iíd expect the TS to be timed to arrive with the 100S, whose BSI sensor is more forgiving for off-center rays.

 One should also expect CPS-like enticements and aids for pro users, as Fuji moves upstream into territory occupied by Canon, Nikon, ... and Hasselblad.

Edmund

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« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 09:00:22 AM by eronald »
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eronald

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Re: Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. GFX 50R "travel compact")
« Reply #135 on: September 14, 2018, 09:10:09 AM »

General MF update: The effects of the Apple keynote.

After the iPhone Xs launch, all camera companies are going to be scrambling to provide computational photography tricks like adjustable depth of field and bokeh and extreme HDR. The Apple tech demos are compelling in their user benefits.

The novel bokeh features are enabled by a depth map created from the the focus pixels on the sensor, and considerable AI image processing.

Present day camera electronics probably cannot handle these tasks; nor can manufacturer firmware developers be expected to replicate this very complex AI software. I would expect Sony to provide custom silicon in the near future, and in the meantime camera companies will provide PC-based processing to attempt to stay in the game.

I would expect Phase to be on the phone to Seattle right now, screaming for help to keep C1 relevant when every bride demands iPhone effects. Adobe are probably going to hire every bright russian or indian kid they can find as they suddenly realize machine learning is now a core Photoshop technology, and not just an advertising and web moneymaker.

Edmund

« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 09:52:06 AM by eronald »
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BAB

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Re: Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. GFX 50R "travel compact")
« Reply #136 on: September 14, 2018, 09:43:07 AM »

MF cameras such as my H6D 100 are slow, clunky, heavy and lack the portability of a system as a whole. Many photographers who get a taste of lightweight, fast, big aperture lenses, long battery life, helpful firmware choices with the likes of mirrorless cameras shooting anything but landscapes must find it hard to go backwards. If the subject moves and you can shoot at 8-20 FPS and not have to bring a two wheeler to lug around your system and you get great IQ then itís a no brainer.
As for Hasselblad so far they have not shown any DJI money turned into progress so we wait until the 25th and Iíll give them the benifit of doubt. Itís however becoming increasingly difficult to believe since every other brand has shown their hand with a glimpse or a rumor but not H.
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eronald

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Re: Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. GFX 50R "travel compact")
« Reply #137 on: September 14, 2018, 10:35:48 AM »

MF cameras such as my H6D 100 are slow, clunky, heavy and lack the portability of a system as a whole. Many photographers who get a taste of lightweight, fast, big aperture lenses, long battery life, helpful firmware choices with the likes of mirrorless cameras shooting anything but landscapes must find it hard to go backwards. If the subject moves and you can shoot at 8-20 FPS and not have to bring a two wheeler to lug around your system and you get great IQ then itís a no brainer.
As for Hasselblad so far they have not shown any DJI money turned into progress so we wait until the 25th and Iíll give them the benifit of doubt. Itís however becoming increasingly difficult to believe since every other brand has shown their hand with a glimpse or a rumor but not H.

My feeling - I guess if you are posting in this thread you expect me and others to comment - is that Hassy are using the DJI money to push the XD which is a sweet design and selling well in the luxury enthusiast sector and to some pros. This round the XD will move to 100Mp, and the H will get a 150MP update and possibly a cheapish 100MP crop back, and a 600MP multishot. I don't know how long the H is going to live, but my guess is it's going to move out of the way once the XD is going strong. I don't see any new H lenses coming out. When the current 100Mp H ends up sold at bargain prices, I think I'lll buy one for old times sake, just to have a Tyrannosaurus skeleton on display in my den :)

Fuji share the rights to the H mount as someone here pointed out, so there is an H-Fuji adapter and I guess there  is also a Fuji-Leica S adapter and an H to XD mount adapter and so people can walk away from the brand and keep their lenses going. Or if they don't need leaf shutters right now, they can move to Fuji for zero cost by ebaying their Hassy stuff.

Edmund
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 10:39:14 AM by eronald »
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BJL

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Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors: for better bokeh, get a phone?!
« Reply #138 on: September 14, 2018, 01:58:25 PM »

General MF update: The effects of the Apple keynote.

After the iPhone Xs launch, all camera companies are going to be scrambling to provide computational photography tricks like adjustable depth of field and bokeh and extreme HDR. The Apple tech demos are compelling in their user benefits.

The novel bokeh features are enabled by a depth map created from the the focus pixels on the sensor, and considerable AI image processing.

Present day camera electronics probably cannot handle these tasks; nor can manufacturer firmware developers be expected to replicate this very complex AI software.
I admit a smug pleasure in seeing the internet obsession with bokeh! as an argument for larger formats and larger lenses with larger apertures being flipped into an argument for using a phoneóor to be fair, using a camera with good image processing options. Because although I acknowledge some legitimate artistic reasons for wanting some parts of the image blurred, it seems that in many cases, it is more like a analog version of an Instagram filter.

And yet I know that ó like other evidence of smaller formats being able to match and outdo what used to require a larger format and larger lenses ó this will be inverted into a prediction of a shift up the size scale: APS-C mostly displaced by 36x24, 44x33 luring photographers from 36x24 (rather than from 54x40), 24-70/2 or 58/0.95 lenses as new essential tools for any serious or professional photographer ...
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eronald

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Re: Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors: for better bokeh, get a phone?!
« Reply #139 on: September 14, 2018, 03:13:22 PM »

BJL

I learnt photography with large-negative cameras from the 1910 era, and had no subject separation issues. DOF was a problem.

My high-school Leica from the 40s had a Sonnar 1.5 50mm lens, adapted from Contax, and no separation issues, and bubbles in the lens that gave a nice diffuse glow when wide open.

My university time SLR had a 55mm F1.7 lens.

Now the phones have wide angle lenses with huge dof, and it is impossible to get decent subject separation when doing a portrait. That is why computational bokeh is hot, not because people are searching for extreme blur.

No consumer had access to such wide angle lenses before phones happened.

The desire for mildly blurred backgrounds is simply a return to the esthetics of the 1950s - if you buy a Diana (Lomo?) and a roll of 100 ISO , 120  roll film you'll get background blur.

Edmund

I admit a smug pleasure in seeing the internet obsession with bokeh! as an argument for larger formats and larger lenses with larger apertures being flipped into an argument for using a phoneóor to be fair, using a camera with good image processing options. Because although I acknowledge some legitimate artistic reasons for wanting some parts of the image blurred, it seems that in many cases, it is more like a analog version of an Instagram filter.

And yet I know that ó like other evidence of smaller formats being able to match and outdo what used to require a larger format and larger lenses ó this will be inverted into a prediction of a shift up the size scale: APS-C mostly displaced by 36x24, 44x33 luring photographers from 36x24 (rather than from 54x40), 24-70/2 or 58/0.95 lenses as new essential tools for any serious or professional photographer ...
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 03:37:21 PM by eronald »
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