After Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. And The WINNAH is FUUUJIIII !!! )

[narikin]

I love gear, but in the end the stuff has to get the job done and make some money. That’s currently for me a Fuji/Phase combination. I looked at the new D850 and Sony’s, but they just don’t provide the Detail im looking for.

Yup, agree. The Phase IQ3-100 back continues to amaze me, after 64,000+ exposures. Mouth agape, regularly.

My Sony, never; Canon, never; Nikon, never.

I too am a gear hog (it *is* my job, after all) but the Phase IQ100 has earned it's keep. The Fuji GFX-100 will be added as soon as it comes, heck I might get the 50R as a walk around, it sounds great, but man do I wish it had the 100mp sensor in there. (and that Capture One supported it!)

[E.J. Peiker]

I too am a gear hog (it *is* my job, after all) but the Phase IQ100 has earned it's keep. The Fuji GFX-100 will be added as soon as it comes, heck I might get the 50R as a walk around, it sounds great, but man do I wish it had the 100mp sensor in there. (and that Capture One supported it!)

I could have written that verbatim as I am in agreement 100%.  I hope, now that Phase has dropped selling cropped 645 backs, that they will soon add the cropped medium format cameras to Capture One.  If that happens then for sure the GFX-100 and about three lenses will get my money...  My guess is that there is more revenue to be had in selling C1P to cropped MF shooters than there ever would be in selling those backs and by not supporting them, they are leaving some significant revenue on the table.  It just makes too much sense from a business perspective.

[eronald]

According to wikipedia the 24 is designed to cover 35mm with 12mm shift ... in each direction.
That reduces to full coverage and around 7mm shift on 44x33, still significant.
Tilt is of course maintained.

The 50R should have the existing 50Mp sensor; I don’t think it loves shift; the GFX100 should do better with its new BSI chip.
https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=126547.msg1065633#msg1065633

I am sure there will be a lot wrong with the Fujis ... but they do come with a usable t/s option.

Edmund

Doesn't this somehow defeats the purpose the Canon tilt/shift lenses? (Although the combination looks great in the photograph.)

Firstly, they are not designed to cover 44x33mm (notwithstanding, they still may); secondly, I doubt much tilt/shift will be possible with a 44x33mm sensor.

Even without any tilt/shift, questionable whether these lenses will be able to take full advantage of the 100MP sensor in the upcoming Fujifilm GFX 50R.

[douglevy]

I can't believe about the lack of attention new H backs seems to be getting. Super frustrating, and imagine how rental houses must feel...

[BAB]

Not sure exactly what lack of attention means but Hasselblad seams to have locked out elementary progress of firmware upgrades to the current H6D. Whether it’s due to lack of desire on their part or lack of funds. While Fuji is Constantly releasing upgrades with 20 or more fix’s or improvements in each release. A higher mp 2DX would be just that.
The H6D has given me insane quality images shot on a tripod, it is however crippled by its current firmware in so many shooting situations causing missed images. Bracketing is not sufficient, top lcd horrible, lack of a distance scale, lack of a live raw histogram and needed additional lenses. Besides the fron buttons are not accessible when using the HTS 1.5 which by the way the fact Hasselblad isn’t smart enough to create a tilt/shift solution without magnification is ridiculous. A fragile brand at the moment!


I’m hoping the release of the new 2DX will save them form the competition in a way that you don’t have to own, shoot and work with the files for months to realize how good the camera is.
400mm F3.5
140-380mm F3.5
85-240mm F3.5
16-24mm F 3.5
115mm F2.0
Any NEW WIDE tilt shift lens...

[douglevy]

I meant Phase has cut us X body (I have an H5X) off from new backs post IQ100.

[eronald]

I meant Phase has cut us X body (I have an H5X) off from new backs post IQ100.

If any measure can be idiotic, that is - why stop customers who want to pay $50K and then put the XF in a drawer? That’s exactly what the tech camera crowd does.

In my view, this is an instance of the Phamiya body designers throwing a toddler’s hissy fit and wanting to ensure a place at the table. Because let’s face it, if Phase merged with Hassy tomorrow, the first things axed would be Phocus, XF, and the Hassy backs. Customers like the C1, Phase backs, and Hassy bodies.

I think it doesn’t matter anyway because unfortunately the H series backs and bodies won’t survive much longer. Over there in the Hassy family home the XD is getting all of mommy’s love, just see how the H line gets no firmware updates.

Edmund

[Christopher]

I have to disagree on the “cutting” point. It’s certainly true, that for some the Hassi camera is better, but honestly I would never take it over the XF with all the great new lenses.

I tried both bodies for a long time before once again choosing Phase One and while the backs are a big reason, the main one was the much better XF camera.

I do understand that ergonomics and features are very personal, so everyone has a different opinion on that matter.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[eronald]

MirrorlessRumors is rumoring a Leica S3, no further details.
https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/leica-will-announce-the-new-s3-medium-format-camera-at-photokina/

Let’s see how this goes.
Leica usually has the best Photokina parties.

Edmund

[Doug Peterson]

In my view, this is an instance of the Phamiya body designers throwing a toddler’s hissy fit and wanting to ensure a place at the table. Because let’s face it, if Phase merged with Hassy tomorrow, the first things axed would be Phocus, XF, and the Hassy backs. Customers like the C1, Phase backs, and Hassy bodies.

This is 100% right... five years ago and with the DF. It's no longer true.

With the IQ3 we could sell on the H or XF platform. It will surprise no one that has used an XF that we sold the overwhelming majority on the XF. For new users (who had neither platform to start) the number was probably north of 90%.

Part of that is that the XF + Lens of choice is less expensive as a bundle than the H5X or H6X. Part of that is that clients are seeing that, in addition to the all-new-ground-up modern XF body, that Phase One has released a bevy of new full-frame 645 lenses, new accessories, and tons of new XF features in the last few years. They are comparing that to how many meaningful improvements Hassy has made to the Hassy H body/lens/accessory ecosystem over the last few years.

[eronald]

Doug,

Could you answer DougLevy’s post above? He seems to be Phase/H customer ...

Edmund

This is 100% right... five years ago and with the DF. It's no longer true.

With the IQ3 we could sell on the H or XF platform. It will surprise no one that has used an XF that we sold the overwhelming majority on the XF. For new users (who had neither platform to start) the number was probably north of 90%.

Part of that is that the XF + Lens of choice is less expensive as a bundle than the H5X or H6X. Part of that is that clients are seeing that, in addition to the all-new-ground-up modern XF body, that Phase One has released a bevy of new full-frame 645 lenses, new accessories, and tons of new XF features in the last few years. They are comparing that to how many meaningful improvements Hassy has made to the Hassy H body/lens/accessory ecosystem over the last few years.

[douglevy]

Yup. I'm a H5X/Credo60 user. I'm not buying a new back any time soon, but obviously will someday. With this, it'll likely be a used IQ100 or 150/250/350. When I bought into my system, it was the H5X vs. the DF+, the choice was clear. Now the choice isn't as clear (and I'd have considered the XF strongly were I buying today), but that was not an option when I made my purchase. Thanks Edmund.

[Doug Peterson]

Could you answer DougLevy’s post above? He seems to be Phase/H customer ...

If you're asking me to respond to P1 not making more backs for the H platform I think it's self-evident that:
1) It will be good for the continued development of the XF platform (since all resources can go there) and
2) It's highly problematic for people who have a lot of H bodies/lenses but prefer Phase One backs.
3) It's very much counter to the messaging Phase One has put out for years.

DT has been providing trade-in offers for H body/lenses to our clients that want to switch from H to XF and will continue to do so. We can usually offer market rate for these, which reduces the complexity/annoyance/risk of switching compared to selling different bits and pieces on eBay or Craiglist and shipping them different places with some (low but meaningful) risk of damage, fraud, or other inconvenience. We will also have Certified Preowned IQ3 series backs for the H series for a few years, in case someone has a bunch of H bodies/lenses with an older P1 back and just wants a more recent back without switching.

Unfortunately, I really don't see how Phase One could continue investing time/money into the H platform, when Hasselblad's own investment has been so anemic. This chart of H platform lens release dates is not very inviting for a 150mp full-frame-645 sensor; zero new full-frame lenses in the last eight years, and only two in the last 14. Likewise I can't think of any new features added to the H#X platform since the H4X in 2011 (if someone can think of some I'm forgetting, please comment). The majority of Hasselblad's lenses come from the era when they were shipping 22mp backs. Compare that to the XF Body, four major XF Feature Updates, 45 LS BR, 35 LS BR, 40-80 LS BR, 240 LS BR, and 150 f/2.8 LS BR, V Grip, WLF, and various cables/adapters all released since 2012 (a.k.a. Phase One's 80mp or 100mp eras).

I'm more than ready to be proven wrong (e.g. if Hassy announces a few new full-frame lenses and a vertical grip for the H are in development then I will gladly update this post to say I was dead wrong) but as of now it looks like Hassy is heavily focused on the X platform.

Based on the above, where would you put your development time and money if you were Phase One?

The thing I think they did wrong was not providing a few years of direct and obvious notice to users that they would be leaving the H platform. That would have been a more transparent and user-oriented way to go.

[faberryman]

P1 has developed the XF system, but it hasn't come out with an X1D and XCD lenses, so it's not like Hasselblad has been sitting on its hands.

[eronald]

Doug,

 Thank you for the response. You clearly see the issues and as a sales guy are prepared to help your customers. Maybe you and the other Doug could come to a mutually beneficial agreement ...

 Btw, I agree that your argument is cogent, but maybe a different solution would work too. In any case, I would remark that Phase now has a buy-in of $50K so new customers will of necessity come in from elsewhere ...

Edmund

If you're asking me to respond to P1 not making more backs for the H platform I think it's self-evident that:
1) It will be good for the continued development of the XF platform (since all resources can go there) and
2) It's highly problematic for people who have a lot of H bodies/lenses but prefer Phase One backs.
3) It's very much counter to the messaging Phase One has put out for years.

DT has been providing trade-in offers for H body/lenses to our clients that want to switch from H to XF and will continue to do so. We can usually offer market rate for these, which reduces the complexity/annoyance/risk of switching compared to selling different bits and pieces on eBay or Craiglist and shipping them different places with some (low but meaningful) risk of damage, fraud, or other inconvenience. We will also have Certified Preowned IQ3 series backs for the H series for a few years, in case someone has a bunch of H bodies/lenses with an older P1 back and just wants a more recent back without switching.

Unfortunately, I really don't see how Phase One could continue investing time/money into the H platform, when Hasselblad's own investment has been so anemic. This chart of H platform lens release dates is not very inviting for a 150mp full-frame-645 sensor; zero new full-frame lenses in the last eight years, and only two in the last 14. Likewise I can't think of any new features added to the H#X platform since the H4X in 2011 (if someone can think of some I'm forgetting, please comment). The majority of Hasselblad's lenses come from the era when they were shipping 22mp backs. Compare that to the XF Body, four major XF Feature Updates, 45 LS BR, 35 LS BR, 40-80 LS BR, 240 LS BR, and 150 f/2.8 LS BR, V Grip, WLF, and various cables/adapters all released since 2012 (a.k.a. Phase One's 80mp or 100mp eras).

I'm more than ready to be proven wrong (e.g. if Hassy announces a few new full-frame lenses and a vertical grip for the H are in development then I will gladly update this post to say I was dead wrong) but as of now it looks like Hassy is heavily focused on the X platform.

Based on the above, where would you put your development time and money if you were Phase One?

The thing I think they did wrong was not providing a few years of direct and obvious notice to users that they would be leaving the H platform. That would have been a more transparent and user-oriented way to go.

[Doug Peterson]

P1 has developed the XF system, but it hasn't come out with an X1D and XCD lenses, so it's not like Hasselblad has been sitting on its hands.

Agreed! In the last few years Hasselblad has come out with new features, new lenses, and a new body. They just aren’t for the H platform.

[hubell]

If you're asking me to respond to P1 not making more backs for the H platform I think it's self-evident that:
1) It will be good for the continued development of the XF platform (since all resources can go there) and
2) It's highly problematic for people who have a lot of H bodies/lenses but prefer Phase One backs.
3) It's very much counter to the messaging Phase One has put out for years.

DT has been providing trade-in offers for H body/lenses to our clients that want to switch from H to XF and will continue to do so. We can usually offer market rate for these, which reduces the complexity/annoyance/risk of switching compared to selling different bits and pieces on eBay or Craiglist and shipping them different places with some (low but meaningful) risk of damage, fraud, or other inconvenience. We will also have Certified Preowned IQ3 series backs for the H series for a few years, in case someone has a bunch of H bodies/lenses with an older P1 back and just wants a more recent back without switching.

Unfortunately, I really don't see how Phase One could continue investing time/money into the H platform, when Hasselblad's own investment has been so anemic. This chart of H platform lens release dates is not very inviting for a 150mp full-frame-645 sensor; zero new full-frame lenses in the last eight years, and only two in the last 14. Likewise I can't think of any new features added to the H#X platform since the H4X in 2011 (if someone can think of some I'm forgetting, please comment). The majority of Hasselblad's lenses come from the era when they were shipping 22mp backs. Compare that to the XF Body, four major XF Feature Updates, 45 LS BR, 35 LS BR, 40-80 LS BR, 240 LS BR, and 150 f/2.8 LS BR, V Grip, WLF, and various cables/adapters all released since 2012 (a.k.a. Phase One's 80mp or 100mp eras).

I'm more than ready to be proven wrong (e.g. if Hassy announces a few new full-frame lenses and a vertical grip for the H are in development then I will gladly update this post to say I was dead wrong) but as of now it looks like Hassy is heavily focused on the X platform.

Based on the above, where would you put your development time and money if you were Phase One?

The thing I think they did wrong was not providing a few years of direct and obvious notice to users that they would be leaving the H platform. That would have been a more transparent and user-oriented way to go.

Doug:
You are usually smarter than to try to justify something like this. Phase has been insisting forever that it was committed to an open platform with its backs and encouraged photographers to buy Phase backs for their H series bodies. And you want to tell me it was important for Phase to stop selling Phase backs for the H because it would save a few bucks to improve the XF platform? What, $20k for the tooling? The only thing worse than hypocrisy and greed on Phase's part is someone who tries to sell it to us as reasonable. What goes a round, comes around. Even if Phase saves a few bucks by not selling new backs for the H bodies, the few bucks won't save the XF. It was DOA when it was released 5+ years late to market. I knew it the first time I tried to pick it up. The whole world is heading in one direction with smaller and lighter bodies and lenses, and Phase is either unwilling or incapable of seeing it. It just keeps pushing the same old same old. Now Phase wants to try to force the owners of H bodies and lenses who want an upgrade to move onto the XF platform.

[Doug Peterson]

You are usually smarter than to try to justify something like this. Phase has been insisting forever that it was committed to an open platform with its backs and encouraged photographers to buy Phase backs for their H series bodies. And you want to tell me it was important for Phase to stop selling Phase backs for the H because it would save a few bucks to improve the XF platform? What, $20k for the tooling? The only thing worse than hypocrisy and greed on Phase's part is someone who tries to sell it to us as reasonable.

It's okay that we disagree. If I owned an H body with a P1 back I'd be pretty upset. As I said, "3) It's very much counter to the messaging Phase One has put out for years." and "they did wrong not providing a few years of direct and obvious notice to users that they would be leaving the H platform. That would have been a more transparent and user-oriented way to go."

But you miss the point about the development focusing exclusively on the XF. It's not about saving tooling costs; it's about being able to focus on one system. I suspect that will pay real benefits over time, though it comes at the cost of their users who are still on the H platform, who I think should have been given more notice.

It should be noted that "Phase hasn't stopped selling backs for the H" --- they stopped developing new models for the H. The IQ3 series is still available for H as new or CPO. I think P1 should have done a Press Release when they released the IQ3 100mp saying it would be the last back they were planning to develop for the H so users could make an informed decision as to which system they would be investing in.

[eronald]

My belief is that the H is soon going to be retired, much missed, or else Hassy would rev the lenses. Hassy now have a better cash cow, the XD. Doug knows this.  And Phase is going through the motions with the XF lenses, they really are, but they are playing Canute. Doug is in denial but he is starting to get it.  The not so hot XF or its firmware successor the XF+  will soon move to Florida to play golf, because of the mirrorless transition.

Anyone who picks up the XD or the Fuji can see the way the wind is blowing.

Or just go read the Bernard thread aka Nikon Z thread and feel the enthusiasm.

I feel confident of my prediction: Photographers, especially the fashion crowd, love sexy toys. Whatever its virtues, sexy the XF ain’t, and the heart wins over the pocketbook every time. At least when one is young, or has the weak morals of the  french, or access to a good divorce lawyer

Edmund

PS Sorry Doug, this has nothing to do with your messaging. Progress cannot be stopped - ask IBM. And anyway, cultural will still fill that college fund.

Doug:
You are usually smarter than to try to justify something like this. Phase has been insisting forever that it was committed to an open platform with its backs and encouraged photographers to buy Phase backs for their H series bodies. And you want to tell me it was important for Phase to stop selling Phase backs for the H because it would save a few bucks to improve the XF platform? What, $20k for the tooling? The only thing worse than hypocrisy and greed on Phase's part is someone who tries to sell it to us as reasonable. What goes a round, comes around. Even if Phase saves a few bucks by not selling new backs for the H bodies, the few bucks won't save the XF. It was DOA when it was released 5+ years late to market. I knew it the first time I tried to pick it up. The whole world is heading in one direction with smaller and lighter bodies and lenses, and Phase is either unwilling or incapable of seeing it. It just keeps pushing the same old same old. Now Phase wants to try to force the owners of H bodies and lenses who want an upgrade to move onto the XF platform.

[siddhaarta]

MirrorlessRumors is rumoring a Leica S3, no further details.
https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/leica-will-announce-the-new-s3-medium-format-camera-at-photokina/

Let’s see how this goes.
Leica usually has the best Photokina parties.

Edmund

Leica Forum says it will have 64MP (custom made 30x45mm) and the option for sensor and board upgrades for S007 owners. Not much changes otherwise (form factor, OVF, etc.) Obviously only rumors.