Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: eronald on August 25, 2018, 04:24:41 pm
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Disclaimer: This is user-generated blog-style content, with no input from LuLa staff. The author is a former computer journalist and blogger based in Paris. His email is edmundronald at gmail dot com.
POST-PHOTOKINA UPDATE - October 13 2018.
At the end of Photokina 2018 we see Fuji seizing control of the Medium Format market, innovating like crazy and slashing pricing, while Phase retreats upmarket into 150MP territory and Hasselblad entirely fails to react.
- Fuji is ramping up to deliver the entry-level mirrorless $5K GFX 50R , and the $10K GFX100S is announced for 2019, with 50 and 100MP respectively. On the software side Fuji will be bundling a bespoke version of the respected Capture One Raw converter from Phase. Hasselblad finally made no body announcements at Photokina 2018, nor did Pentax.
- A number of adapters and third party lenses are starting to appear for the Fuji GFX system, among which the Mitakon 65mm F1.4 (https://fujiaddict.com/2018/10/12/mitakon-zhongyi-speedmaster-65mm-f-1-4-for-fujifilm-gfx/). However there is still no native (non-adapted) Fuji TS lens in view.
My pre-Photokina expectations (update to reflect releases) are still below.
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Cheaper and more portable prosumer MF is making a comeback with mirrorless. Sensor evolution drives greater resolution, better AF, a transition to lighter mirroless systems, and a price overlap with high-end dSLR systems.
Formal release of the Sony full frame MF 150MP sensor and crop 100MP sensors will drive a major 2018 upgrade cycle of the medium format ecosystem, as it continues a fast transition towards mirrorless. Performance-updated systems with higher resolution and better focus and video are expected from Hasselblad and Fuji, together with a possible cheaper and more compact Fuji rangefinder-style camera body. As sensor prices decrease, and resolutions once more outdistance 35mm, new MF systems are becoming more portable. Thus mirroless MF is now directly competing in the prestige-client consumer space with high end dSLR systems such as the Nikon D5.
Of note: The new Sony 100MP 44x33 chip should cost manufacturers basically the same as the existing 50MP44x33, thus in an ideal world all MF prices based on this size chip should continue to drift slowly lower. Old stock of the 50MP Sony chip may drive "special offer" sales and bundles in the coming months, and allow a cheap entry level rangefinder from Fuji that is intended for handheld use with IBIS.
Major updates are expected from Hassy and Fuji, and some Phase stuff. Here are my expectations, industry evolution is presently driven by the the Sony chip Roadmap (https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products_en/IS/sensor2/application/index.html).
Sony
- Formal release of the IMX411 150MP 53x40mm 3.76u back-illuminated sensor chip
- Formal release of the IMX461 100MP 44x33mm 3.76u back-illuminated sensor chip
Hasselblad:
- Hasselblad's stylish XD1 is now clearly gaining traction in the luxury lifestyle sector. Lenses, especially at the super-wide end, are selling like hot cakes. On the other hand the H lenses will show their age at 150MP over a large field. These are made by Fuji who are now competing with Hassy for every medium format customer. I believe that the lack of renewal of the H lenses is a clue to an impending mothballing of the H line. The H7D may be the last of its line.
- XD2 ==> 100MP. Apart from the MP upgrade, I would expect on-sensor fast phase detect AF.
- I also expect a low priced entry bundle for the X1D, to compete with the Fuji rangefinder, as long as stocks of the old Sony IMX161 50Mp chip last. A low-rez 50MP phase detect version of the XD seems improbable (to me).
- Also, H6D100==> H7D150 at the top end with 53x40mm chip. Possibly sensor phase detect AF. Video performance should be much improved. I think the H7D might be the last H body made.
- H7D100 with 44x33 chip.
- Production end for the H6D100
- Launch of the fast 80mm XCD lens, which is on the 2017 roadmap (aperture unknown).
- Several other lenses on the 2017 roadmap will move into production.
- There is clearly a marketing opportunity for a super-fast portrait lens with good bokeh (circular aperture) eg. 110mmF2.
- I expect an announcement of a super-wide lens for the X2D, taking advantage of the new BSI sensor.
- Some new lens announcements for the X2D, as the X1D has been very well received and lens production is going well, the lens roadmap will accelerate. It is already quite well supplied, a further indication that the XCD is not seen as a travel accessory for H owners, but that the XCD is a complete system that will rapidly take the place of the H.
(https://hasselblad-com.cdn.prismic.io/hasselblad-com%2F6d532276-77b6-4da3-90de-a4453c6780e5_xcd-lens-roadmap2.jpg)
Fuji:
- Fuji's interchangeable viewfinder GFX is arguably the technically most advanced MF camera, with a comparatively low pricepoint, and very good distribution. It seems to be making Fuji happy, concerning sales. The GFX seems to be gaining an audience with serious enthuisiasts and pros, as witnessed by tilt-shift adapters from third parties,but those customers may be expressing a strong desire for fullframe MF. It is possible that Fuji will migrate the GFX series upwards towards fullframe in a few product cycles, and repurpose the lens collection towards a lighter, cheaper rangefinder model. Fuji does not have a 35mm fullframe offering.
- Low-priced ($3600?) Rangefinder style Fuji GFX 50R MF body based on the current Sony IMX161 50Mp front illuminated sensor is said to be an oversized Fuji X-E3 (https://www.adorama.com/ifjxe3b.html?utm_source=rflaid63773), bundled with a 40mm equivalent lens, which would put it in the "travel compact" (!) category. Top dials speed and compensation only, but indications of a fully articulated -2 axis- screen and 2 SD card slots.
(https://www.adorama.com/images/XLarge/ifjxe3b.jpg)
(https://www.adorama.com/images/XLarge/ifjxe3b_2.jpg)
-Rangefinder X-Pro style entry-level MF body based on the current Sony IMX161 50Mp front illuminated sensor
-First leaked photos of Fuji GFX 50R are surfacing, release date September 23, POSSIBLY SUPERLOW street price of $3.5-$4K at launch. This body may ship sooner than the GFX100.
- GFX2 ==> 100MP probably with Ibis Possibly focus using phase detect on-sensor or hybrid AF. Sources agree on the feature set, but the exact date at which this model will start production may depend on the chip supply. Rumors indicate that this camera may be pushed into early 2019.
- At least one interesting lens announcement, I would expect a fast portrait telephoto. There are rumors of a fast standard lens.
Phase:
- Phase One seems to be progressively prioritising high-margin full-service institutional sales and rental. So far, they have a high-end price structure and no mirrorless offering.
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Announced (I got it right):
- Phase One IQ4 150mp
- Phase One IQ4 150mp Achromatic
- Phase One IQ4 100mp Trichromatic
All three use full-frame 645 sensors. Phase One is 100% focused on Full-Frame 645 solutions.
- IQ4 150 53x40mm back.
False Rumour: (Egg on my face)
- 100Mp 44x33 back. Phase seems to be committing to fullframe MF only in the future, at least for IQ backs. No surprises given their upscale positioning.
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- Production end for the current 100MP back.
- It's an open question whether the current XF body will be able to phase-detect AF with the Sony sensors, with a firmware upgrade, or whether an XF2 with main/(back) sensor AF will be announced.
- Confirmation of development of a mirrorless body will probably come with a reassurance to dealers that it doesn't quite compete with the cash-cow IQ backs.
- Phase seem to be in a parking orbit for the time being but could still surprise eg by reviving the DNA of the Mamiya MF rangefinders as a mirrorless MF camera.
Pentax:
- The obvious 645Z upgrade is a 645ZII with 100MP.
- Pentax pioneered the low-price crop-MF camera, but it seems Fuji out-innovated them, out-marketed them and ate their lunch, especially in Japan.
Leica:
- MF camera decisions for a followup/upgrade of the S7 are not public. There are unsubstantiated rumors.
- Only Sony has high-mp MF sensors at the moment. But I don't see Leica adopting a Sony sensor.
- Guessing is hard :)
- MirrorlessRumors is now stating there will be a Leica S3 announcement at Photokina, and Nokishita is confirming. My own expectations would be some modest update to the current model, but I guess a mirrorless MF camera is a possibility. Some have suggested this will consist of an upgrade to 64MP, with a possibility of updating existing cameras by means of a board swap.
- https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/leica-will-announce-the-new-s3-medium-format-camera-at-photokina/
https://mobile.twitter.com/nokishita_c/status/1036964731771215872
Third party lens conversions, active/passive adapters, legacy lens focal length changers, tilt/shift, bellows etc
- Alpa already has an X1D lens adapter (https://www.dpreview.com/news/9141796629/alpa-s-new-adapter-turns-the-hasselblad-x1d-into-a-digital-camera-back) that can also turn an X1D into an Alpa camera back.
- Kipon (http://www.kipon.com/en/articledetail.asp?id=115) has 7 X1D adapters for different lens systems, including Canon EF.
- I would expect more lens adapters and some tilt/shift devices and bellows to be presented at Photokina for both Hassy and Fuji mounts as both the Hassy and Fuji have now reached critical market size. For now, the Fuji seems to be getting more "pro" tilt/shift love
- Anounced: Hartblei FUJI GFX Hartblei Superrotator Zeiss 4/120 Macro for Fuji GFX
- Shipping: Hartblei DRS adapter to GFX of Canon tilt/shift lenses. 100MP you don't need but SHIFT, now that is really really useful. The Canon tilt/shift lenses are well known and much loved in the industry. Hartblei (http://www.hartblei.de) are going to be very very busy making them.
- One can expect someone to market an optical downscale adapter, as Metabones, that reduces the image circle for legacy MF lenses, while creating a faster lens.
- It will be interesting to see whether someone will make an active optical upscale adapter for 35mm lenses to enlarge the image circle, as now sometimes seen in video use.
Edmund
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Agreed, but I think it’s going to be an H7D-150c and that it will have as an option, if not standard, an EVF.
I also expect at least one new H lens with an optimized AF a la X1D lenses, and I would like it to be a 110mm f2.0.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Fuji: GFX2 ==> 100MP ***with Ibis***.
Edmund: IBIS would be cool for a high resolution camera aimed in good part at hand-held shooting and capable if using with many older non stabilized lenses. Where is this on the scale from "wishlist" to "inside information"?
Bernard: offering an EVF—at least an accessory—on a big, heavy, expensive SLR with live view seems obvious. Yet it keeps not happening, to my surprise!
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Edmund: IBIS would be cool for a high resolution camera aimed in good part at hand-held shooting and capable if using with many older non stabilized lenses. Where is this on the scale from "wishlist" to "inside information"?
Bernard: offering an EVF—at least an accessory—on a big, heavy, expensive SLR with live view seems obvious. Yet it keeps not happening, to my surprise!
BJL, It's all just random fantasy. In my youth I was paid to write a rumours column for a computer magazine so I enjoy making things up.
In this particular case we have information released by the main supplier, sightings and the past track record of vendors to guide us.
Bernard, I'm amending the list slightly.
Edmund
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Bernard: offering an EVF—at least an accessory—on a big, heavy, expensive SLR with live view seems obvious. Yet it keeps not happening, to my surprise!
I am curious: why do you want an EVF, when MF SLRs have large and clear OVFs?
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I am curious: why do you want an EVF, when MF SLRs have large and clear OVFs?
Because focusing accurately and consistently a 100mp MF camera manually is a challenge, especially with AF lenses.
Besides it would make AF possible across the field like on X1D or GFX.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Bernard, I'm amending the list slightly.
I am very honored! 😀
Cheers,
Bernard
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I am very honored! 😀
Cheers,
Bernard
I await your further input, Bernard :)
Edmund
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BJL, It's all just random fantasy. In my youth I was paid to write a rumours column for a computer magazine so I enjoy making things up.
In this particular case we have information released by the main supplier, sightings and the past track record of vendors to guide us.
Edmund
Not according to my source, who held a prototype recently: GFX2 has IBIS.
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Not according to my source, who held a prototype recently: GFX2 has IBIS.
For landscape use, who cares? If I am on a tripod, which I always am if I am shooting seriously, I want IBIS completely off. For street photography, I wouldn’t use medium format. Same with family snapshots. Probably irrelevant for fashion as well, as the use of sophisticated artificial lighting setups typically involves the use of larger apertures and high shutter speeds.
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For landscape use, who cares? If I am on a tripod, which I always am if I am shooting seriously, I want IBIS completely off. For street photography, I wouldn’t use medium format. Same with family snapshots. Probably irrelevant for fashion as well, as the use of sophisticated artificial lighting setups typically involves the use of larger apertures and high shutter speeds.
You are absolutely right, a photographer should always carry a tripod. And preferably a small stool to be able to sit and compose carefully.
;)
Edmund
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For landscape use, who cares? If I am on a tripod, which I always am if I am shooting seriously, I want IBIS completely off. For street photography, I wouldn’t use medium format. Same with family snapshots. Probably irrelevant for fashion as well, as the use of sophisticated artificial lighting setups typically involves the use of larger apertures and high shutter speeds.
You're making the error of assuming everyone else's needs are identical to yours. They are not.
I emphatically would welcome IBIS in MF digital.
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You're making the error of assuming everyone else's needs are identical to yours. They are not.
I emphatically would welcome IBIS in MF digital.
No assumptions, I just couldn't see the use case. How would YOU use IBIS with a medium format camera?
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Because focusing accurately and consistently a 100mp MF camera manually is a challenge, especially with AF lenses.
??? If you have AF lenses, why not use that to focus? My ancient H4D focuses perfectly without EVF and so does the H6D 100 mpix version.
Moreover, we don't agree on what a viewfinder is designed for. I use that for composition, not for focus.
Besides it would make AF possible across the field like on X1D or GFX.
That is not really a feature of the EVF, but of the sensor.
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Shadowblade,
Apologies, I am done arguing with you.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Shadowblade,
Apologies, I am done arguing with you.
Cheers,
Bernard
Hey Bernard,
since you're here d'you have any gossip you'd like to pass on? ;)
Edmund
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since you're here d'you have any gossip you'd like to pass on? ;)
Yes, I hear that the step sister of my cousin may be about to buy a new Golf...
Cheers,
Bernard
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IBIS on MF would be a positive. Hasselblad could possibly use it in a future X1? with their version of Pixel shift, I can't remember their name for it. Fuji did not offer it on the X-H1 but maybe can bring it into play on the GFX100s (whatever it will be called). Huge deal for me as I have seen just what pixel shift can offer with the K1.
For Phase One, it would be an excellent addition as I prefer many time to hand hold a MF system. Since I double P1 will ever come out with VR/OIS style lenses, it would be great to have it in a back. For me P1 = tripod and there are many times I just want the freedom of hand holding.
Fuji/GFX with OIS on the lenses that offer it that I have, 120mm and 250mm is amazing at least for me. The ability to take that camera of tripod and hand hold large series pano's is wonderful and frees up many shots I just would not have taken. IBIS would extend this to non Fuji lenses or Fuji lenses without OIS like the 32-64, which I would dearly love to have stabilization.
Last spring in Yosemite, I had both the 3100/XF and GFX. After two days of stopping, extending the tripod lens, taking a shot, then packing it all back up, I was happy to carry the GFX for the rest of my hiking. Really only needed the tripod for slower shutter speeds/water, but during last spring and the massive flood such shutter speeds were really out of the question on most streams. Happily carried the GFX and it did free me up for many shots I just would have passed on other wise with the P1. Not to mention the fact that with a 128GB card the P1 takes about 14 seconds to come into use after power up, 12 to 14 seconds each time you power on. GFX instantly ready to shoot, like a Nikon or Canon.
If I was still 40 or so years old, maybe, but not now.
It will be interesting to see what finally gets announced. But 150Mp for me is a non issue. Just don't need the overhead.
Paul C
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Yes, I hear that the step sister of my cousin may be about to buy a new Golf...
Cheers,
Bernard
Bernard - are you ok?
You sound a bit less funny than your usual self.
Edmund
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Bernard - are you ok?
You sound a bit less funny than your usual self.
I am sorry I did disappoint... it must be the stress generated by the single memory card slot on the Z7... lack of sleep... you know...
Cheers,
Bernard
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I am sorry I did disappoint... it must be the stress generated by the single memory card slot on the Z7... lack of sleep... you know...
Cheers,
Bernard
Yes, this new Nikon is so exciting.
So I assume you have no MF news, and have seen no UFOs, Phase One mirrorless systems, 200mm Hasselblad XCD lenses or even a Fuji MF rangefinder?
Edmund
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So I assume you have no MF news, and have seen no UFOs, Phase One mirrorless systems, 200mm Hasselblad XCD lenses or even a Fuji MF rangefinder?
Nope.
I believe that I have been way too critical of Hasselblad's H6D-100c firmware release speed for them to consider me a person trusty of pre-release information sharing. ;D
Cheers,
Bernard
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Nope.
I believe that I have been way too critical of Hasselblad's H6D-100c firmware release speed for them to consider me a person trusty of pre-release information sharing. ;D
Cheers,
Bernard
I will gladly take that useless H6D100C off your hands now it's obsolete :)
Edmund
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IBIS on MF would be a positive. Hasselblad could possibly use it in a future X1? with their version of Pixel shift, I can't remember their name for it. Fuji did not offer it on the X-H1 but maybe can bring it into play on the GFX100s (whatever it will be called). Huge deal for me as I have seen just what pixel shift can offer with the K1.
For Phase One, it would be an excellent addition as I prefer many time to hand hold a MF system. Since I double P1 will ever come out with VR/OIS style lenses, it would be great to have it in a back. For me P1 = tripod and there are many times I just want the freedom of hand holding.
Fuji/GFX with OIS on the lenses that offer it that I have, 120mm and 250mm is amazing at least for me. The ability to take that camera of tripod and hand hold large series pano's is wonderful and frees up many shots I just would not have taken. IBIS would extend this to non Fuji lenses or Fuji lenses without OIS like the 32-64, which I would dearly love to have stabilization.
Last spring in Yosemite, I had both the 3100/XF and GFX. After two days of stopping, extending the tripod lens, taking a shot, then packing it all back up, I was happy to carry the GFX for the rest of my hiking. Really only needed the tripod for slower shutter speeds/water, but during last spring and the massive flood such shutter speeds were really out of the question on most streams. Happily carried the GFX and it did free me up for many shots I just would have passed on other wise with the P1. Not to mention the fact that with a 128GB card the P1 takes about 14 seconds to come into use after power up, 12 to 14 seconds each time you power on. GFX instantly ready to shoot, like a Nikon or Canon.
If I was still 40 or so years old, maybe, but not now.
It will be interesting to see what finally gets announced. But 150Mp for me is a non issue. Just don't need the overhead.
Paul C
I just think with a 100mp medium format camera shooting handheld even with IBIS, I am throwing away a lot of the extraordinary detail that the camera is capable of. For pixel shift applications on a tripod, perhaps, but that seems to only work with a static subject. I have tried the IBIS with my Sony A7RII. It's no panacea that leads me to think I can toss my tripod away.
I like it for travel photography. But I wouldn't use a 100 mp GFX for travel photography. Too big, too heavy, too obtrusive.
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I will gladly take that useless H6D100C off your hands now it's obsolete :)
Would your kindness extend to the Arca as well?
Cheers,
Bernard
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IBIS on the GFX2....hmmmm...they wont even put it in the (rumored, soon to be announced) X-T3 and that sensor is a LOT smaller....adding IBIS to a GFX 33x44 sensor would take quite a bit of room, add weight and not so sure how much it would help it would actually provide....
I would love to see it happen, just sold my GFX, the 100mpix model should be a real step up....i think PD AF along with the extra resolution and even better DR...very interesting....throw in IBIS, even better!
i shoot 99% handheld so IBIS is great, and for video it can be heaven....
not so sure about the Z...had my eye on it but will stick with sony for now, i havent heard anything about it that clearly puts it over the competition and some reports of AF aren't that great....short battery life, low buffer (oh how spoiled we have become) but more importantly the price? a no brainer for nikon shooters maybe? but everybody i know on the D800 D810 D850 train already got a sony (for that mirrorless option) a while ago....and they all already have some sony glass....if anything they are talking about leaving nikon....and a manual 6000$ 50mm? plenty of options for that right now for a lot less money....
i guess we will see how fast they can build and ship.....
and if sony wont spoil the fun with a new announcement as well...
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Choosing the right mount has never been more difficult.
In this context the open mount of the Sony combined with their innovation drive makes it a safe bet.
It seems clear that MF will maintain an advantage in sensor resolution, would it only be because Sony will carefully ensure that their most expensive sensor remain attractive to sell in sufficient quantities. The lenses of the X1D and GFX system are also outstanding.
But if the quality delivered by the Sony sensor/FE mount lenses meets your needs, then no need to look elsewhere. Sony will most probably continue to focus on very compact camera designs which a great value also in many cases and to deliver the latest bells and whistles, many of those very useful.
Cheers,
Bernard
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It seems clear that MF will maintain an advantage in sensor resolution, would it only be because Sony will carefully ensure that their most expensive sensor remain attractive to sell in sufficient quantities.
Cheers,
Bernard
MF is clearly going mainstream now with a bunch of cameras under $10K, and Fuji who are a big brand in Japan are backing it.
To secure the resolution advantage in the light of the next batch of 70-80 Mp 35 mm systems, Fuji, Hassy, Pentax could all ship fullframe MF 150MP at $10K today if they wanted to, and make a solid profit. But they'd have to write off their brand new lens systems. Sony would be really happy to sell them all the sensors as they would amortize the production over 3 years of large volume sales, exactly as happened with the now obsolete 50Mp 44x33 sensor. Sony Semiconductor Solutions's parent company Sony (SNE) would be making substantially more profit on one 150MP sensor than on an A7 body, or worse a Z7 sensor, so what do they care? But if the majority of existing customers eg. Hassy and Fuji get killed by someone who leapfrogs, corporate management may not like it.
Actually, Pentax would have an immediate evolution to fullframe MF as a reasonable choice,as the camera design costs are low with drop-in sensors, and tooling costs are really low with no mirror box to source and calibrate and the current Pentax MF dSLR product is now clinically dead .
Ricoh is large enough to be able to afford this sort of "practical joke" on their competition, especially since the 645Z seems to have sold ok, so their MF division might get the quarter for another game of pinball. So my guess is they will let Hassy and Fuji have their day in the sun, wait until Fuji's geeky japanese customers start to understand that they are paying a lot for something that is barely better than 35mm, and then have a serious debate whether to launch, and attempt a serious negotiation with Sony. An announcement might come in about a year when the new 60 or 70 MP 35mm sensors launch, and when the Internet is full of pixel peeping of the Hassy and Fuji 100MP vs the 70MP Sony and Nikon top end systems with $6K Otus-class glass. Because Ricoh is a Sony customer, Ricoh have access to the Sony 35mm chip roadmap and so Pentax marketing already know today exactly when Fuji and Hassy's 100MP systems will turn old.
Of course everything there is true also about Leica, who have their obsolescing Leica S system, and a need to keep their Sinar division supplied with chips for backs. They may face technical difficulties in obtaining adequate yields for an independently fabricated high-resolution fullframe chip, and BSI seems almost a necessity. Unless some generous third party heavily subsidises an independent chip supplier (eg. for remote sensing applications), and makes the product freely available, I would expect Leica and above all Sinar to fall into the Sony camp quite soon for their large format chips.
I think a debate over imaginary cameras is as much fun as a debate about second card slots, no?
Edmund
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I think a debate over imaginary cameras is as much fun as a debate about second card slots, no?
Certainly, but the problem is that there is a much higher risk of agreeing.
Cheers,
Bernard
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...............
Of course everything there is true also about Leica, who have their obsolescing Leica S system, and a need to keep their Sinar division supplied with chips for backs. They may face technical difficulties in obtaining adequate yields for an independently fabricated high-resolution fullframe chip, and BSI seems almost a necessity. Unless some generous third party heavily subsidises an independent chip supplier (eg. for remote sensing applications), and makes the product freely available, I would expect Leica and above all Sinar to fall into the Sony camp quite soon for their large format chips. ......
Edmund
Sinar is no more existing physically - at least not in Switzerland. All the assets have been brought to Leica in Germany and are "waiting" there to be organized which "may" or "may not" happen in a reasonable timeframe. The website sinar.ch is run bei the Leica branch in CH.
I don´t know about customer service, maybe somebody who tried to access this recently can shed a light on the situation.
Greetings from Germany
Stefan
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Sinar is no more existing physically - at least not in Switzerland. All the assets have been brought to Leica in Germany and are "waiting" there to be organized which "may" or "may not" happen in a reasonable timeframe. The website sinar.ch is run bei the Leica branch in CH.
I don´t know about customer service, maybe somebody who tried to access this recently can shed a light on the situation.
Greetings from Germany
Stefan
I wonder who the Sinar customers moved to.
A Canon rep told me a few years ago that the problem with the Pro 35mm models is that they are too expensive for independent working pros, or rather the working pros are now quite poor, so they end up buying prosumer models, and so the Pro division is angry at the prosumer division.
This may explain the strange situation of the Fuji GFX, where what is arguably the most "professional" -robust, full-featured- MF body is actually the cheapest by far.
Consumer electronics is a strange business, because what people get to buy is not determined by real technical or economic considerations but by this strange art called "marketing".
Edmund
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I think it'll be the H6D-150c rather than a H7 - the H6 platform was just revisioned with the CFast slot & just lots more horsepower. The IQ platform had to come current for the 151mp, thus the IQ4.
Hass coming out with a new lens would be HUGE - it's my biggest concern with the H platform (that and focus trim/AF microadjustment). The dust up with Fuji on the X1D/GFX and those lenses still worries me. I love the new Orange Square shutters, but Schneider did a top to bottom tweak with the BlueRing lenses and at 151mp, every little bit matters.
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IMHO if they will go H7 when they do the on-sensor PDAF update. If it's now it's now, if it's later, it's later :)
But I'd be really surprised if the X2D goes out the door without PDAF since fast focus is essential for a handheld body, especially when it's one which hedgefund managers buy to snap their Instagram wives at Davos. These guys may value looks and style, but they hate bad performance, be it in cars or cameras.
Edmund
I think it'll be the H6D-150c rather than a H7 - the H6 platform was just revisioned with the CFast slot & just lots more horsepower. The IQ platform had to come current for the 151mp, thus the IQ4.
Hass coming out with a new lens would be HUGE - it's my biggest concern with the H platform (that and focus trim/AF microadjustment). The dust up with Fuji on the X1D/GFX and those lenses still worries me. I love the new Orange Square shutters, but Schneider did a top to bottom tweak with the BlueRing lenses and at 151mp, every little bit matters.
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Had a meeting with my dealer regarding a fuji gfx buy today and he told me to wait at least two weeks for something coming up. He said 100MP are more than a possibility.
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Had a meeting with my dealer regarding a fuji gfx buy today and he told me to wait at least two weeks for something coming up. He said 100MP are more than a possibility.
Yeah, I think we can take a 100MP GFX II as a given.
The interesting question concerning Fuji is whether they will release a rangefinder-style MF camera.
Edmund
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...
Phase:
- Phase One seems to be progressively prioritising high-margin full-service institutional sales and rental. So far, they have a high-end price structure and no mirrorless offering.
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Announced (I got it right):
- Phase One IQ4 150mp
- Phase One IQ4 150mp Achromatic
- Phase One IQ4 100mp Trichromatic
All three use full-frame 645 sensors. Phase One is 100% focused on Full-Frame 645 solutions.
- IQ4 150 53x40mm back.
False Rumour: (Egg on my face)
- 100Mp 44x33 back. Phase seems to be committing to fullframe MF only in the future, at least for IQ backs. No surprises given their upscale positioning.
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Here is my crazy speculation/wish for Phase One. It will stick to its new "cropping, nevermore" status, where all its cameras use a lens system designed for the camera's sensor format, not relying on lenses designed for a larger format ... but it will do that with two "full frame, no cropping" systems:
- DSLRs with roughly 54x40mm sensors and lenses for that "645" format, and
- EVF cameras with 44x33mm sensors and a complete new lens system designed for that format.
Since "Full Frame" is well established as applying to at least two formats (the Film Formats "645" and "35mm"), I challenge anyone to justify saying that 36x24mm systems are "Full Frame" but EVF camera and lens systems like Hasselblad X and Fujifilm G with their larger 44x33mm format are not!
P. S. But I actually expect that instead, PhaseOne will stick to its "645 or die", with any EVF cameras staying in that niche.
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Hi Edmund,
A good list.
I am not sure what Phase is doing, though. They may go high end only, but that makes only sense if large sensor dominates their sales.
But, I would guess mirrorless MFD kills off 44x33 DSLRs.
Regarding pixel shift, I think that increasing linear resolution 41% gives more benefits than adding pixel shift. Obviously the techniques can be combined.
I don't think IBIS is available as off the shelf technology, it is more like DIY. So, if GFX gets IBS it is not given Hasselblad can use it. Hasselblad may opt for multishot, but I think I have read that the actuators used for that are quite large.
Fuji is the giant in the MFD industry now. I guess that they are selling GFX like hotcakes. Hasselblad may sell a lot of X1Ds, but Fuji has the backing of the Green Gigant and can share technology development with Fujis APS-C models. So, I guess we will see a lot more innovation från Fuji than from Hasselblad.
Hasselblad hopefully corrects some technical issues with the next X-series camera.
There has been a lot of interesting developments in MFD.
Best regards
Erik
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WELL if one could have a live RAW histogram in the viewfinder that would be a game changer...adding a eye AF tracking would kill it also. Either with OVF or EVF or both!
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Here is my crazy speculation/wish for Phase One.
P. S. But I actually expect that instead, PhaseOne will stick to its "645 or die", with any EVF cameras staying in that niche.
I think Phase One is slowly exiting the handheld photo market and concentrating on very controlled tethered and institutional environments.
I suspect the cost differential between a fullframe and cropframe 645 chip is now not worth it for them to assemble different back models. They are basically going to have ONE product. Of course they could supply 645 chips in every back and enable the periphery for a shoot if the photographer buys a token :)
Phase have always been smart at business, but they're now moving from being a strong MF competitor to total ownership of the tethered niche, while Hassy are taking ownership of the prestige market and Fuji grabs the MF low end.
In computer terms, Phase are servers, Hassy are Apples and Fuji are the Dell desktops.
Or if you prefer, Phase make desktop enterprise phones, Hassy make iPhones, and Fuji are Android ;)
Edmund
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Does anybody know what the chips actually cost the manufacturer? And are the "FF" (53x40) chips massively more expensive than the 33x44 chips? Is A GFX twice the cost of a 24x36 mirrorless with nearly the same pixel count because the sensor makes up most of that, or is there a much higher margin (perhaps because of lower sales)? Is a Phase five times the cost of a GFX because that FF chip costs many thousands of dollars? I could see the chips getting massively more difficult to make as they got bigger, because one error ruins a whole chip, but I could also see the pricing being a function of a deliberate low-volume/high price strategy...
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Does anybody know what the chips actually cost the manufacturer? And are the "FF" (53x40) chips massively more expensive than the 33x44 chips? Is A GFX twice the cost of a 24x36 mirrorless with nearly the same pixel count because the sensor makes up most of that, or is there a much higher margin (perhaps because of lower sales)? Is a Phase five times the cost of a GFX because that FF chip costs many thousands of dollars? I could see the chips getting massively more difficult to make as they got bigger, because one error ruins a whole chip, but I could also see the pricing being a function of a deliberate low-volume/high price strategy...
My feeling is that *at the moment* we're looking at under $1K for a crop sensor to $3K for a fullframe.
The differential depends on where one is on the yield curve for the tech. The general shape of the yield curve is well known, but the exact slope and the point where one is on it is the most carefully guarded production secret at a semiconductor company. AFAIK. I'm sure some specialist will share his opinion.
Also a camera with twice the number of pixels will need twice the storage and twice the bandwidth, so the sensor cost is compounded by a rise in the cost of the support electronics.
Last not least Phase has very high marketing costs and margins, in order to serve their institutional customers via a full-service dealer network. Hassy and especially Fuji have more realistic sales models.
As I explained in the section on Pentax in my post at the top of this thread, in my opinion fullframe mirrorless MF at a $10K pricepoint would be perfectly feasible; the existing players are however locked into high prices when it comes to Phase, and crop-format lens systems when it comes to Hassy XD and Fuji GFX.
Edmund
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My feeling is that *at the moment* we're looking at under $1K for a crop sensor to $3K for a fullframe.
Edmund
For the benefit of this rumors thread let me give the guesses for P1 and Fuji economics:
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- P1 pays a sensor $3K.
- They add $1K-$1.5K at least for the for the infinity planetary computer or whatever they call it ie, a decent LCD and touchscreen, probably a microcomputer board based on an FPGA eg Xilinx Zink or something similar to interface with the sensor, maybe some fast static RAM to read out the frame data, maybe a second microcomputer board to manage the user interface, a lot of RAM to store the images, some well designed power management circuitry, and military-grade chips everywhere, expensive circuit boards, very high grade internal connectors. The whole thing is avionics-grade The electronic board assembly is subcontracted to a high-end small-scale manufacturing subcontractor who makes a batch, eg 500.
- Case costs eg. $100
- Protection glass cover etc. $50
- Final assembly costs when the sensors - delivered in very small batches - meet the backs "just in time". This involves an extensive calibration process, optical and electronic to make sure the focus plane is in the right place, and measuring the sensor's base characteristics. These will be burnt into the firmware, and retained for reference by the company. This final assembly process probably cannot be outsourced. Final assembly probably involves 1/2 day of highly skilled work for each back. Say $500.
So I'd guess that the marginal cost of each back that gets sold is around $5-$6K, and I'd guess they are pushed out the factory door with an invoice at $15-20K, which leaves some money on the table for the various company execs to pay themselves a salary, and for the techs to do the R&D for IQ5. The dealer invites the customer for a presentation cocktail and resells the thing at $40K or whatever they really make a customer pay these days for an IQ4-150
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For Fuji it's a different story.
My guess is they have crop-sensor costs of $800 or so, as they are doubtless now the largest buyer of these chips.
They will make their own simplified and miniaturised board, possibly using their own ASICS common to several cameras they manufacture.
They get really good deals for the LCD and RAM etc ===> So $300-$500 for electronics
$300-500 for physical camera construction and assembly including shutter and lens mount
Final Assembly and testing is done on their own production line for a big batch, but in Japan. $300 final assembly costs per camera.
So Fuji end up with $2K marginal costs for their whole camera, and they then ship it into their distribution system with an internal invoice around $5K and are perfectly happy. It will now go into a rabbit hole where creative accounting happens.
The box ends up at B&H who ship the thing out via Fedex and invoice the customer $7.5K
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All of the above are pure guesses. People with a more realistic view of things are welcome to comment.
Notice that in the end it really doesn't matter a lot whether Phase pay their sensor $3K or$5K today, because in absolute terms this would make up 10% of variation in the invoiced factory unit price of a back they assemble "just in time" today and deliver tomorrow. They will just bill their dealers $2K more, but the customer won't notice it. The huge margins provided by the dealer system cushion the large costs in parts when a product is in its launch phase. Chips get much cheaper during the lifetime of a product.
Also, the Phase dealers don't really get to keep all of their huge margins. Nobody pays list. In the case of institutional sales there are a large number of "incidental" costs. The dealers may have to purchase dealership demo units, and loaners for customers, handing their own hard-earned money to Phase. They need to have a "Doug in the box(TM)" to help customers. They need to spend days and days teaching customers to use C1, help them install it etc. It all mounts up.
In the case of Fuji, the company can still afford to lower its prices by a fair amount, because their distribution system does not *need* to be expensive, and a large company does not *need* to make a large profit on each unit shipped.. Of course, they will only risk lowering their pricing when they have amortised the R&D and are confident that they understand the product and will make economies of scale. But at that point they could come down to retail $5K fairly easily, in my opinion.
As I stated in the beginning, all of this is pure back-of the envelope guesswork. And my text shows that I don't understand that much about manufacturing and pricing, unfortunately. But maybe someone who does can help ...
Edmund
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Does anybody know what the chips actually cost the manufacturer? And are the "FF" (53x40) chips massively more expensive than the 33x44 chips? Is A GFX twice the cost of a 24x36 mirrorless with nearly the same pixel count because the sensor makes up most of that, or is there a much higher margin (perhaps because of lower sales)? Is a Phase five times the cost of a GFX because that FF chip costs many thousands of dollars? I could see the chips getting massively more difficult to make as they got bigger, because one error ruins a whole chip, but I could also see the pricing being a function of a deliberate low-volume/high price strategy...
Yes the large chip is drastically more expensive to manufacture than the cropped one. I wrote an article many many years ago about this that explains it in terms of 35mm vs cropped - while the numbers would be different, the concept is identical:
https://www.naturescapes.net/articles/techniques/the-economics-of-digital-photo-sensors/
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The cost summar is likely right on target, but there may be more to the picture. Admin/marketing/distribution has to be added, also R&D. Some may be allocated to software sales, but some also to the backs. Hard to know what that is.
How wacky can these other costs be? Consider for a moment the goofy selling of boutique water - the water probably costs very little, but its pricey on the shelves. Yes, probably includes excess profits, but even if you discounted the water say 50% for the retailer, this still suggests the cost of raw material may not be main driver.
In making and selling of books, some focus on printing costs, as its the easiest variable to identify. Yet the costs for design, editorial, distribution and marketing can be equally significant. Its those darn invisibles that trip us up...
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Yes the large chip is drastically more expensive to manufacture than the cropped one. I wrote an article many many years ago about this that explains it in terms of 35mm vs cropped - while the numbers would be different, the concept is identical:
https://www.naturescapes.net/articles/techniques/the-economics-of-digital-photo-sensors/
EJ, what do you think are the yield rates for fullframe 35mm, crop MF and full MF these days? And the manufacturing costs?
Edmund
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At least my summary answers the issue of whether fullframe MF would be viable at the $10K market point eg for Fuji. The answer is yes, certainly. And it also answers the issue of whether Phase should bother with crop sensors - the answer is "not worth the bother". Half of this has already played out, now let's wait for the other shoe to drop.Interestingly Hassy seems to be stuck in some demilitarized zone between Fuji and Hassy, they sell a prestige camera, have the same R&D costs, but don't incur the same sales costs.
Edmund
The cost summar is likely right on target, but there may be more to the picture. Admin/marketing/distribution has to be added, also R&D. Some may be allocated to software sales, but some also to the backs. Hard to know what that is.
How wacky can these other costs be? Consider for a moment the goofy selling of boutique water - the water probably costs very little, but its pricey on the shelves. Yes, probably includes excess profits, but even if you discounted the water say 50% for the retailer, this still suggests the cost of raw material may not be main driver.
In making and selling of books, some focus on printing costs, as its the easiest variable to identify. Yet the costs for design, editorial, distribution and marketing can be equally significant. Its those darn invisibles that trip us up...
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EJ, what do you think are the yield rates for fullframe 35mm, crop MF and full MF these days? And the manufacturing costs?
Edmund
I've been out of the industry for too long now to have any accuracy as I did back when I wrote that but it would very much be a function of wafer size in use. If they are still using 300mm wafers which they were in 2017 so that's probably a decent assumption but it is possible that they have moved to 450mm, and assuming a $1500 wafer cost then they are probably getting 3 good sensors or so per wafer so the processing cost alone would be $500, then you add assembly, bayer array, wafer sort (separating good die from bad), assembly cost, final test, QC, and all of the other overhead and I could easily see the raw sensor cost, when purchased in volume of $1000 or more. But again, I've been out of the game too long. In 2009 I could have predicted it down to within a dollar or so accuracy due to the job I had and the data I could get ;)
I am reaching out to some old contacts to get a better estimate of wafer cost in 2018 and will update this if it changes materially.
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I've been out of the industry for too long now to have any accuracy as I did back when I wrote that but it would very much be a function of wafer size in use. If they are still using 300mm wafers which they were in 2017 so that's probably a decent assumption but it is possible that they have moved to 450mm, and assuming a $1500 wafer cost then they are probably getting 3 good sensors or so per wafer so the processing cost alone would be $500, then you add assembly, bayer array, wafer sort (separating good die from bad), assembly cost, final test, QC, and all of the other overhead and I could easily see the raw sensor cost, when purchased in volume of $1000 or more. But again, I've been out of the game too long. In 2009 I could have predicted it down to within a dollar or so accuracy due to the job I had and the data I could get ;)
I am reaching out to some old contacts to get a better estimate of wafer cost in 2018 and will update this if it changes materially.
That would be interesting. What I would also be interested in knowing is what the yield numbers for one of the known sensors sizes would be.
Edmund
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Some students from a different branch of my university, are trying to build a medium format camera prototype. Buying a sensor from Sony (1 piece) is about 3k in Euro.
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Some students from a different branch of my university, are trying to build a medium format camera prototype. Buying a sensor from Sony (1 piece) is about 3k in Euro.
Yes, these are sample prices.
What they should do is ask Sony for an "engineering grade sample" of the sensor which is a chip that has some imaging defects but is functional.
AFAIK these are handed out for almost nothing.
Edmund
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That would be interesting. What I would also be interested in knowing is what the yield numbers for one of the known sensors sizes would be.
Edmund
I did say that in my response, my estimate based on a 300mm wafer size and common defect densities for this type of process would be around 3 D/W.
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Some students from a different branch of my university, are trying to build a medium format camera prototype. Buying a sensor from Sony (1 piece) is about 3k in Euro.
Which model? In particular, 44x33mm of 54x40mm?
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I wonder how many of the new 100MP and 150MP chips are really available ... Maybe just enough to do some announcing and for Phase to supply a handful of customers. We may be heading for "sales season" where everybody is remaindering 50MP MF products like crazy, or possibly offering upgrade deals where you buy the 50 and get the 100 later for a low "upgrade" price.
Edmund
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Yes, these are sample prices.
What they should do is ask Sony for an "engineering grade sample" of the sensor which is a chip that has some imaging defects but is functional.
AFAIK these are handed out for almost nothing.
Edmund
I don't believe this to be accurate for sensors, perhaps if its a sample request for a lower end part from say Texas Instruments, Sony etc.
I inquired 11 years ago with Kodak, here was their quote:
KAF-39000CE Image Sensor
Color with Sealed AR Coated Glass
Standard Grade Catalog # 4H0762 Product Name: KAF-39000-CAA-DD-AA
Engineering Grade Catalog # 4H0763 Product Name: KAF-39000-CAA-DD-AE
Evaluation Board
20MHz 12-Bit Digital Catalog # 4H0845 Product Name: KEK-4H0845-KAF-39000-12-24
KAF-39000CE (M35) (Color)
Total Quantity Purchased
Jan. 1, 2005 to present Color
Photographic Grade
Price Each ($US)
Standard Grade $5900
Engineering Grade $1200
Evaluation Board (Includes EG Sensor) $3700
====================================================================================
Engineering Grade Policy:
Engineering Grade devices are fully operational parts which may have more cosmetic defects (points, clusters, or columns) than standard production grade parts. Quantities are strictly limited and the parts are sold on an "as available" basis and ONLY in conjunction with the purchase of a production grade imager of the same type or an evaluation board set. Engineering Grade devices are intended for uses such as testing new board designs to avoid risking a high value production grade part during the development phase of a new camera project. There is no warranty associated with Engineering Grade parts, and they are never authorized for use in camera systems sold to end user customers.
The Evaluation Board Kit includes the following:
Imager Board
Timing Board
40-pin Connector
Board Interface Cable
Co-axial Cable
8-Position Power Supply Plug
Documentation CD
The kit order also includes an Engineering Grade device in your choice of configuration at no charge. Please specify the configuration required when ordering.
The evaluation board kit connects to a PC via a frame grabber. The recommended frame grabber is the National Instruments PCI-1424 (LVDS). You should also be able to get the connecting cable from them as well (NI 185012A-02 Type D100100). Check www.ni.com to locate a distributor you can work with if you need to purchase the frame grabber and cable.
All prices are in US dollars. Prices include air shipment to your location. Prices quoted are valid for 60 days from the date of quotation. Normal lead time for ISS is 30 days from receipt of order. Due to high demand at this time, some products can not be delivered in that time frame. The best available delivery date will be provided with the confirmation at the time the order is placed. For customers that do not have a formal credit relationship with Eastman Kodak, lead time is 30 days from receipt of payment. Please see the attached Terms of Sale for warranty and other information.
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I'm sorry to have used the term "almost nothing"; as you indicate 20% of the price of a photo-grade sensor was still a lot of money.
I never figured out how things work with samples, what you really pay for them varies with the realtionship you establish with the supplier. The last design I did (a measurement device) I paid the going rate for an eval board for the very novel sensor, but then when I later requested a batch of samples for a set of prototype products, a company VP suddenly became available for a meeting in my location and came bearing gifts :)
Edmund
I don't believe this to be accurate for sensors, perhaps if its a sample request for a lower end part from say Texas Instruments, Sony etc.
I inquired 11 years ago with Kodak, here was their quote:
KAF-39000CE Image Sensor
Color with Sealed AR Coated Glass
Standard Grade Catalog # 4H0762 Product Name: KAF-39000-CAA-DD-AA
Engineering Grade Catalog # 4H0763 Product Name: KAF-39000-CAA-DD-AE
Evaluation Board
20MHz 12-Bit Digital Catalog # 4H0845 Product Name: KEK-4H0845-KAF-39000-12-24
KAF-39000CE (M35) (Color)
Total Quantity Purchased
Jan. 1, 2005 to present Color
Photographic Grade
Price Each ($US)
Standard Grade $5900
Engineering Grade $1200
Evaluation Board (Includes EG Sensor) $3700
====================================================================================
Engineering Grade Policy:
Engineering Grade devices are fully operational parts which may have more cosmetic defects (points, clusters, or columns) than standard production grade parts. Quantities are strictly limited and the parts are sold on an "as available" basis and ONLY in conjunction with the purchase of a production grade imager of the same type or an evaluation board set. Engineering Grade devices are intended for uses such as testing new board designs to avoid risking a high value production grade part during the development phase of a new camera project. There is no warranty associated with Engineering Grade parts, and they are never authorized for use in camera systems sold to end user customers.
The Evaluation Board Kit includes the following:
Imager Board
Timing Board
40-pin Connector
Board Interface Cable
Co-axial Cable
8-Position Power Supply Plug
Documentation CD
The kit order also includes an Engineering Grade device in your choice of configuration at no charge. Please specify the configuration required when ordering.
The evaluation board kit connects to a PC via a frame grabber. The recommended frame grabber is the National Instruments PCI-1424 (LVDS). You should also be able to get the connecting cable from them as well (NI 185012A-02 Type D100100). Check www.ni.com to locate a distributor you can work with if you need to purchase the frame grabber and cable.
All prices are in US dollars. Prices include air shipment to your location. Prices quoted are valid for 60 days from the date of quotation. Normal lead time for ISS is 30 days from receipt of order. Due to high demand at this time, some products can not be delivered in that time frame. The best available delivery date will be provided with the confirmation at the time the order is placed. For customers that do not have a formal credit relationship with Eastman Kodak, lead time is 30 days from receipt of payment. Please see the attached Terms of Sale for warranty and other information.
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Erik just as a note. All the Phase One lenses I currently own are exceptional some even better than my GFX lenses.
Don’t get me wrong the Fuji lenses are amazing especially at that price point, however, lenses like the 35/45/120/150 from Phase are exceptional as well and have no problem resolving the 100Mp and pretty certain the 150 as well. They are as good or better than all these praises Rosenstock lenses.
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That's exactly how I see it...
Greeting Gerd
PS: And I also have the GFX / 645Z and (almost) all lenses.
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Hi Christopher,
It is difficult to compare lenses on systems that don't have the same resolution. It would be easy, would we have MTF data, that characterizes lens without the sensor. But we have not so much that data and presentation may differ a lot.
I have seen a lot of very good analysis on the GFX lens line, due to the valiant efforts of Jim Kasson.
Once we have 100 MP on the GFX and 150 MP on 54x41 we may have accurate comparisons.
Jim Kasson had a sample of HC lenses for the "Blad" and also V-series lenses and he did test them and they were no where close the GFX lenses.
Little is known about the Phase One lenses. Capture Integration did publish some MTF data for some of the LS-lenses. They were not so easy to compare say Hasselblad MTF data, as they measured at 15,30 and 60 lp/mm, while HB measures at 10,20,40 lp/mm. The data were nice, but it did not blow your socks off.
An intressant observation may be that a well corrected lens achieves optimum performance around f/4 or f/5.6. Why? Because optimum performance is sort of a race between aberration control and diffraction, that sets the limit of the performance of the lens. So, a lens that needs to be stopped down to f/8 for maximum sharpness will be a lot behind a lens that achieves optimum at f/4.
it seems that GFX lenses measured with the GFX sensor are pretty darned good. How they perform at 100 MP, that is something we will see when 100 MP is around.
I am no betting man. But, would I bet, I am pretty sure I would bet on the GFX at 100 MP versus 54x41 mm at 150 MP. That said, I may be wrong... We will know better once adequate samples are available from both.
Best regards
Erik
Erik just as a note. All the Phase One lenses I currently own are exceptional some even better than my GFX lenses.
Don’t get me wrong the Fuji lenses are amazing especially at that price point, however, lenses like the 35/45/120/150 from Phase are exceptional as well and have no problem resolving the 100Mp and pretty certain the 150 as well. They are as good or better than all these praises Rosenstock lenses.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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It is a pity that among the manufactures of premium lenses (Zeiss, Leica, Hasselblad, Fuji, Rodenstock, etc.), only Schneider Kreuznach chooses not (anymore) to publish MTF data. Obviously, MTF does not say all about lens performance, but it helps understanding the basics ...
Among the few who publishes Imatest data on resolution of MF lenses is (strangely) PCmag, not very detailed and thorough, but better than nothing. Two comparisons seem interesting to me:
1) Two standard lenses: SK BR 80mm (rated by DT as B - good) vs Fuji GF 63mm: the Fuji starts at 4755/3744 lines per picture height in the centre/corner at f2.8 and improves to 5064/3744 at f4. The SK starts at 4539/3970 lines at f/2.8 and improves to 4809/4650 at f4.
Seems that these results are quite good for both lenses, the Fuji being better in the centre and the SK being better in the corners. Now the point is that these results are measured with the 50MP sensor for the Fuji and the 100MP sensor for the SK, meaning that the SK is not able to extract more detail on the bigger sensor than the Fuji on the smaller sensor. To put this into perspective, the Otus 85mm resolves in the centre at about 3800-3900 lines on a 36MP sensor between f2.8 and f/4.
Note: the non BR SK 80mm has also been tested with the 50MP back: at f/2.8 it reaches only 2910/2212 lines, and at f/4 it improves to moderate 3411/2714 lines (centre/corner).
2) Two wide angle lenses: SK BR 35mm (rated by DT as A++ - extraordinary) vs Hasselblad XCD 21mm: the Hasselblad starts at 4979/4647 lines (centre/corner) at f/4 and improves to 5196/4999 at f/5.6. The SK starts at 5311/3283 at f/4 and improves to 6278/4562 at f/5.6. Whereas the Hasselblad is very strong in the centre and corners, the SK is even better in the centre but quite weak in the corners and needs substantial stopping down to f/8 to improve substantially. Again these results compare the Hasselblad on a sensor with 50MP resolution to the SK on a sensor with 100MP.
Note: There is also data for the SK 28mm on the 50MP sensor available: 3880/2084 at f/4.5 and 4045/2618 at f/5.6. This lens would match better the FoV of the XCD 21mm, but is a quite old design (rated by DT as C - okay).
In both cases it can also be seen that the Fuij/Hasselblad lenses have their peak performance at f/5.6, whereas the SK at f/11, I think Erik explained why.
Question is what does that mean when we compare in the near future system performance between 100MP "crop sensor" (with newly designed Hasselblad or Fuji lenses) and 150MP "full sensor" (with partially aged SK lenses).
But then: the IQ4 series is supposed to be "much more than resolution".
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I think lenses are quite difficult to test and it’s really hard to judge them. Everyone has a different opinion and I for myself am not a big fan of MTF curves. In general they should be really great to judge, however, I have had to many lenses and copies of these lenses that did not match my experience the MTF curve I saw and performance I was hoping and looking for.
I can compare a few lenses at 50mp (GFX vs iq350) and here most of my Phase lenses, I now own, are better than anything I have for the GFX.
There are some lenses like the Phase BR 150 2.8, which are huge and heavy, but some of the finest glas I have ever used and that includes quite a lot from Nikon/Zeiss/Fuji and Leica.
I have been shooting the GFX next to the IQ3100 quite a while now and while I absolutely love my Fuji camera and would never give it up, it‘s not in the same ballpark compared to the IQ3100.
This might change when comparing 100vs150 but I still think the IQ4 150 with the right lenses will have no problem keeping a distance to the GFX2.
I won’t argue, that when doing difficult hikes and tours I will be more than happy with a 100Mp Fuji and will leave my Phase equipment at home.
I love gear, but in the end the stuff has to get the job done and make some money. That’s currently for me a Fuji/Phase combination. I looked at the new D850 and Sony’s, but they just don’t provide the Detail im looking for.
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1) Two standard lenses: SK BR 80mm vs Fuji GF 63mm: the Fuji starts at 4755/3744 lines per picture height in the centre/corner at f2.8 and improves to 5064/3744 at f4. The SK starts at 4539/3970 lines at f/2.8 and improves to 4809/4650 at f4.
Yeah, unfortunately the SK BR 80mm is one of the weakest lenses in Phase's line. (odd considering it is the 'standard' lens) The redesign from the prior Phase One/Mamiya 'D' 80mm lens, to make room for the Leaf Shutter, compromised it's performance. I own both and would never use the LS BR for anything unless I really must have an LS, which is basically never, in my case. It's ok, don't get me wrong, but the old 'D' is much sharper.
We also must reiterate the fact that the bigger the image circle, the greater the demands on the lens designer/manufacturer. It's one thing to hit a high resolution for FF 35mm, another level to achieve that for Crop MF, and an even higher level again to stretch that to Full Frame MF.
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Update - according to the Stefan this is old news, and shipping.
For me it's the Fuji announcement of the show, and it's already happened: Pros are going to want that for product shots and architecture, and they're all gonna get it; 100MP you don't need but SHIFT, now that is really really useful.
- Announced: Hartblei Fuji GFX DRS adapter for Canon tilt/shift lenses. This looks like it might turn the GFX into a workhorse for product and architecture.
(http://www.hartblei.de/de/26240193_1402114309901001_1714125394866458407_o.jpg)
http://www.hartblei.de/en/whatsnew.htm
HCam DRS Dual Rotation Shifter EOS to Fuji GFX, shown here with the new Canon TS-E Macro or a second TS adapter for either M645, P645/67,
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The DRS is on sale already over half a year. We have stock and can ship short term.
Here in combination with a Mirex M645 to EOS TS adapter = Dual shift AND Tilt.
Greetings from Germany
Stefan
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First leaked photos of Fuji GFX 50R are surfacing, release date September 23, POSSIBLY street price of $3-$4K at launch.
https://fujiaddict.com/2018/09/01/first-fujifilm-gfx-50r-photo-and-release-dates/
Hassy won’t like this, especially the pricing. If Fuji sells too many of these, the GFR, GFX and normal lenses will be dirt cheap on the used market and really start chewing into their sales. Do I need a $10K X1D-100 if I can get a used GFR-50 with lens for $2K?
Edmund
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Hi Edmund,
We don't know if Phase will release 100MP on 44x33. Well, they already have it on an aerial photography device, but not in a camera intended for conventional photography.
No one else has released a 100 MP 44x33 camera, yet. May be chips are not really available yet.
It is a decent speculation that Phase One tries to work within a high price nische. I don't see them competing with say Fuji GFX 100s or next generation X1D.
What I think sets the GFX and the X1D apart is that they are designed around the 44x33 sensor size. That means lenses optimized for the sensor and both firms optimised their systems 100MP.
Best regards
Erik
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Hi Edmund,
We don't know if Phase will release 100MP on 44x33. Well, they already have it on an aerial photography device, but not in a camera intended for conventional photography.
No one else has released a 100 MP 44x33 camera, yet. May be chips are not really available yet.
It is a decent speculation that Phase One tries to work within a high price nische. I don't see them competing with say Fuji GFX 100s or next generation X1D.
What I think sets the GFX and the X1D apart is that they are designed around the 44x33 sensor size. That means lenses optimized for the sensor and both firms optimised their systems 100MP.
Best regards
Erik
Erik,
I believe Phase have stated no more crop frame, at least for IQ.
Of course, never say never.
In my view, Hasselblad and Phase are now on a collision course. Before, Hassy had a portable stylish camera, and Fuji a heavy one, now Fuji will have a lighter model that can work well without a tripod.
My belief is that Fuji will bring out a full-frame camera at the next generation, but keep the light, cheap rangefinder model
Edmund
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This is an unfortunate time to be Hassy. Just when they had a camera that everyone liked, they get a cut-price competitor with the GFX 50R.
Maybe DJI will resort to selling at cost or manufacturing in China in order to save the day.
The real problem is that all these cameras are now Sony lensboxes - they can only differentiate themselves with physical design, and try and keep their customers locked in via their lensmount. Phase is using software and trade-in lockin, which works a bit better.
Edmund
Erik,
I believe Phase have stated no more crop frame, at least for IQ.
Of course, never say never.
In my view, Hasselblad and Phase are now on a collision course. Before, Hassy had a portable stylish camera, and Fuji a heavy one, now Fuji will have a lighter model that can work well without a tripod.
My belief is that Fuji will bring out a full-frame camera at the next generation, but keep the light, cheap rangefinder model
Edmund
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Edmund, in what sense is the Fujifilm G system a “crop” or not “full frame”, given that the smaller 36x24 systems are “full frame”? With the rise of EVF camera systems, some with their own all-new lens systems, I think it’s time to describe them by what they are, not relative to different technologies from the past.
(Actually “medium format” is another anachronistic comparison)
Fujifilm has a 44x33 format EVF camera system.
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This is an unfortunate time to be Hassy.
Is it a fortunate time to be an armchair analyst? 8)
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Edmund, in what sense is the Fujifilm G system a “crop” or not “full frame”, given that the smaller 36x24 systems are “full frame”? With the rise of EVF camera systems, some with their own all-new lens systems, I think it’s time to describe them by what they are, not relative to different technologies from the past.
(Actually “medium format” is another anachronistic comparison)
Fujifilm has a 44x33 format EVF camera system.
BJL you are right, it’s an anachronistic historical name of course.
Most of the world’s scientists use metric because it is easy for computation, but the US still uses inches and pounds even for engineering and construction because people feel more comfortable with historical measure systems.
Edmund
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Is it a fortunate time to be an armchair analyst? 8)
No, it is a very bad time to be a net writer, because it is very hard to monetize one’s content adequately. A few years ago you could just get a job as a journalist, now as a blogger I guess you need business skills. Like the Kardashians.
I’m a UK NUJ member. When I was younger I got fired occasionnally for being a nuisance; however my last 3 press employers simply went out of business. The digital revolution killed Kodak, and the Internet business model also killed much of news photography and paid journalism because press companies were bad at monetization.
People still read what bloggers write, but in the end the advertising money mostly goes to Google.
If you are unhappy with what I write, pay me to do more research, or read someone else who does it better for the same price you offer. When it comes to medium format, this forum hosts some very knowledgable writing by well-known expert Doug Peterson whose sources outrank mine by far, and who is even a genuine art photographer in his spare time.
:P
Edmund
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Yes, these are sample prices.
What they should do is ask Sony for an "engineering grade sample" of the sensor which is a chip that has some imaging defects but is functional.
AFAIK these are handed out for almost nothing.
Edmund
I will forward this, thanks a lot
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I believe Phase have stated no more crop frame, at least for IQ.
Of course, never say never.
I agree with that—including your use of "crop" with reference to IQ! That is valid when referring to a system of bodies and lenses designed around roughly the 56x42mm of "645" film format.
So to repeat, I expect Phase One will keep to its new "no crop" policy, and indeed that there will be no new crop bodies or backs from any maker beyond maybe a few more 44x33mm backs for Hasselblad's H, while it weans 44x33 customers onto the X system. But there just _might_ be a new Phase One EVF camera system with bodies and lenses designed around the 44x33mm format: Fujifilm and Hasselblad seem set to drive up volume for sensors in that format, improving its economies of scale and thus its cost advantage over 54x40.
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I agree with that—including your use of "crop" with reference to IQ! That is valid when referring to a system of bodies and lenses designed around roughly the 56x42mm of "645" film format.
645 is cropped medium format, so this "no crop" policy is sort of disingenuous anyway.
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645 is cropped medium format, so this "no crop" policy is sort of disingenuous anyway.
I guess you did not read my previous posts: "crop" only legitimately applies to the situation where the sensor size imposes a crop on the lens system—as with early DSLRs using lenses for 36x24mm film format but only a 24x16mm sensor, or those DMF products that (still today) use lenses designed for 645 or 6x6 format with smaller sensor formats like 36x36mm or 44x33mm which forces a crop of the image that the lenses are designed to deliver, cramps wide-angle FOV options, and so on. It has never validly meant "a smaller format than the one I prefer and/or am used to". Or can you point to a reputable photographic authority that uses a different definition of "crop", from before digital sensors and internet forums came along?
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Edmund,
You in particular might be interested in this; I admit that I wrongly predicted this would not happen, and it should help reduce the cost of larger sensors, in particular 36x24mm ones:
https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/home/products/details/litho-products/duv-scanners/fpa-6300esw-scanner
"FPA-6300ESW is the only KrF scanner in the world that can expose full size CMOS image sensor without stitching (see note 1) because 33 mm x 42.2 mm can be exposed in one shot."
"Note 1. Stitching exposure: A method of increasing exposure field size by connecting two or more adjacent exposure regions. The positional accuracy and alignment of the adjacent exposure regions directly affects the yield."
The 130nm resolution of this scanner is small enough for sensors of this size and upward, unlike earlier large field, lower resolution Canon steppers.
The cost notch due to lower yields when stitching is required now moves to the gap from 36x24mm to the larger formats. Frustratingly for MF, the field size is just short of covering 44x33mm, so those sensors will still need at least one stitch, and maybe 54x40mm also needs just one, but might need a 2x2 stitch.
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Yes.
I don’t know how or whether Sony stitches, or whether they have custom tooling for one fab, or some workaround eg a non-optical direct write on wafer process which is a remote possibility. I have met people who did that sort of thing, albeit a lifetime ago, and not where you would expect. I guess direct examination of a chip sample would make the stitching apparent.
OTOH maybe the chip architecture is such now that the stitching does not have much relevance to readout, or can easily compensated by calibration? How would it impact yields? How is the creation of the CFA done? How are focus pixels made? Why are Sony so good at BSI? I vaguely used to know about this stuff but am now hopelessly out of date.
Obviously there are still some sources of large CMOS sensor chips on the market but no one enjoys making them enough to sell them widely :)
Edmund
PS I would read those stepper specs as an invitation to contact Canon if you haopen to need 44x33 :)
Edmund
Edmund,
You in particular might be interested in this; I admit that I wrongly predicted this would not happen, and it should help reduce the cost of larger sensors, in particular 36x24mm ones:
https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/home/products/details/litho-products/duv-scanners/fpa-6300esw-scanner
"FPA-6300ESW is the only KrF scanner in the world that can expose full size CMOS image sensor without stitching (see note 1) because 33 mm x 42.2 mm can be exposed in one shot."
"Note 1. Stitching exposure: A method of increasing exposure field size by connecting two or more adjacent exposure regions. The positional accuracy and alignment of the adjacent exposure regions directly affects the yield."
The 130nm resolution of this scanner is small enough for sensors of this size and upward, unlike earlier large field, lower resolution Canon steppers.
The cost notch due to lower yields when stitching is required now moves to the gap from 36x24mm to the larger formats. Frustratingly for MF, the field size is just short of covering 44x33mm, so those sensors will still need at least one stitch, and maybe 54x40mm also needs just one, but might need a 2x2 stitch.
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No, it is a very bad time to be a net writer, because it is very hard to monetize one’s content adequately. A few years ago you could just get a job as a journalist, now as a blogger I guess you need business skills. Like the Kardashians.
Rather like Ming Thein (https://blog.mingthein.com), since we were discussing Hasselblad.
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Rather like Ming Thein (https://blog.mingthein.com), since we were discussing Hasselblad.
Aaah! Wonderful example, the creator of the renowned 'Ultraprint' (https://blog.mingthein.com/2014/02/27/introducing-the-ultraprint/)
... a proprietary, exclusive process to my work alone and requires special end to end workflow, special hardware, and suitable compositions/ aesthetics to ‘work’. It is not merely printing!
and a quick reality check
http://photothunk.blogspot.com/2015/08/just-how-fictional-in-ming-thein.html
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Hartblei Fuji GFX DRS adapter for Canon tilt/shift lenses. This looks like it might turn the GFX into a workhorse for product and architecture
Doesn't this somehow defeats the purpose the Canon tilt/shift lenses? (Although the combination looks great in the photograph.)
Firstly, they are not designed to cover 44x33mm (notwithstanding, they still may); secondly, I doubt much tilt/shift will be possible with a 44x33mm sensor.
Even without any tilt/shift, questionable whether these lenses will be able to take full advantage of the 100MP sensor in the upcoming Fujifilm GFX 50R.
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I love gear, but in the end the stuff has to get the job done and make some money. That’s currently for me a Fuji/Phase combination. I looked at the new D850 and Sony’s, but they just don’t provide the Detail im looking for.
Yup, agree. The Phase IQ3-100 back continues to amaze me, after 64,000+ exposures. Mouth agape, regularly.
My Sony, never; Canon, never; Nikon, never.
I too am a gear hog (it *is* my job, after all) but the Phase IQ100 has earned it's keep. The Fuji GFX-100 will be added as soon as it comes, heck I might get the 50R as a walk around, it sounds great, but man do I wish it had the 100mp sensor in there. (and that Capture One supported it!)
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I too am a gear hog (it *is* my job, after all) but the Phase IQ100 has earned it's keep. The Fuji GFX-100 will be added as soon as it comes, heck I might get the 50R as a walk around, it sounds great, but man do I wish it had the 100mp sensor in there. (and that Capture One supported it!)
I could have written that verbatim as I am in agreement 100%. I hope, now that Phase has dropped selling cropped 645 backs, that they will soon add the cropped medium format cameras to Capture One. If that happens then for sure the GFX-100 and about three lenses will get my money... My guess is that there is more revenue to be had in selling C1P to cropped MF shooters than there ever would be in selling those backs and by not supporting them, they are leaving some significant revenue on the table. It just makes too much sense from a business perspective.
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According to wikipedia the 24 is designed to cover 35mm with 12mm shift ... in each direction.
That reduces to full coverage and around 7mm shift on 44x33, still significant.
Tilt is of course maintained.
The 50R should have the existing 50Mp sensor; I don’t think it loves shift; the GFX100 should do better with its new BSI chip.
https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=126547.msg1065633#msg1065633
I am sure there will be a lot wrong with the Fujis ... but they do come with a usable t/s option.
Edmund
Doesn't this somehow defeats the purpose the Canon tilt/shift lenses? (Although the combination looks great in the photograph.)
Firstly, they are not designed to cover 44x33mm (notwithstanding, they still may); secondly, I doubt much tilt/shift will be possible with a 44x33mm sensor.
Even without any tilt/shift, questionable whether these lenses will be able to take full advantage of the 100MP sensor in the upcoming Fujifilm GFX 50R.
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I can't believe about the lack of attention new H backs seems to be getting. Super frustrating, and imagine how rental houses must feel...
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Not sure exactly what lack of attention means but Hasselblad seams to have locked out elementary progress of firmware upgrades to the current H6D. Whether it’s due to lack of desire on their part or lack of funds. While Fuji is Constantly releasing upgrades with 20 or more fix’s or improvements in each release. A higher mp 2DX would be just that.
The H6D has given me insane quality images shot on a tripod, it is however crippled by its current firmware in so many shooting situations causing missed images. Bracketing is not sufficient, top lcd horrible, lack of a distance scale, lack of a live raw histogram and needed additional lenses. Besides the fron buttons are not accessible when using the HTS 1.5 which by the way the fact Hasselblad isn’t smart enough to create a tilt/shift solution without magnification is ridiculous. A fragile brand at the moment!
I’m hoping the release of the new 2DX will save them form the competition in a way that you don’t have to own, shoot and work with the files for months to realize how good the camera is.
400mm F3.5
140-380mm F3.5
85-240mm F3.5
16-24mm F 3.5
115mm F2.0
Any NEW WIDE tilt shift lens...
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I meant Phase has cut us X body (I have an H5X) off from new backs post IQ100.
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I meant Phase has cut us X body (I have an H5X) off from new backs post IQ100.
If any measure can be idiotic, that is - why stop customers who want to pay $50K and then put the XF in a drawer? That’s exactly what the tech camera crowd does.
In my view, this is an instance of the Phamiya body designers throwing a toddler’s hissy fit and wanting to ensure a place at the table. Because let’s face it, if Phase merged with Hassy tomorrow, the first things axed would be Phocus, XF, and the Hassy backs. Customers like the C1, Phase backs, and Hassy bodies.
I think it doesn’t matter anyway because unfortunately the H series backs and bodies won’t survive much longer. Over there in the Hassy family home the XD is getting all of mommy’s love, just see how the H line gets no firmware updates.
Edmund
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I have to disagree on the “cutting” point. It’s certainly true, that for some the Hassi camera is better, but honestly I would never take it over the XF with all the great new lenses.
I tried both bodies for a long time before once again choosing Phase One and while the backs are a big reason, the main one was the much better XF camera.
I do understand that ergonomics and features are very personal, so everyone has a different opinion on that matter.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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MirrorlessRumors is rumoring a Leica S3, no further details.
https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/leica-will-announce-the-new-s3-medium-format-camera-at-photokina/
Let’s see how this goes.
Leica usually has the best Photokina parties.
Edmund
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In my view, this is an instance of the Phamiya body designers throwing a toddler’s hissy fit and wanting to ensure a place at the table. Because let’s face it, if Phase merged with Hassy tomorrow, the first things axed would be Phocus, XF, and the Hassy backs. Customers like the C1, Phase backs, and Hassy bodies.
This is 100% right... five years ago and with the DF. It's no longer true.
With the IQ3 we could sell on the H or XF platform. It will surprise no one that has used an XF that we sold the overwhelming majority on the XF. For new users (who had neither platform to start) the number was probably north of 90%.
Part of that is that the XF + Lens of choice is less expensive as a bundle than the H5X or H6X. Part of that is that clients are seeing that, in addition to the all-new-ground-up modern XF body, that Phase One has released a bevy of new full-frame 645 lenses, new accessories, and tons of new XF features in the last few years. They are comparing that to how many meaningful improvements Hassy has made to the Hassy H body/lens/accessory ecosystem over the last few years.
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Doug,
Could you answer DougLevy’s post above? He seems to be Phase/H customer ...
Edmund
This is 100% right... five years ago and with the DF. It's no longer true.
With the IQ3 we could sell on the H or XF platform. It will surprise no one that has used an XF that we sold the overwhelming majority on the XF. For new users (who had neither platform to start) the number was probably north of 90%.
Part of that is that the XF + Lens of choice is less expensive as a bundle than the H5X or H6X. Part of that is that clients are seeing that, in addition to the all-new-ground-up modern XF body, that Phase One has released a bevy of new full-frame 645 lenses, new accessories, and tons of new XF features in the last few years. They are comparing that to how many meaningful improvements Hassy has made to the Hassy H body/lens/accessory ecosystem over the last few years.
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Yup. I'm a H5X/Credo60 user. I'm not buying a new back any time soon, but obviously will someday. With this, it'll likely be a used IQ100 or 150/250/350. When I bought into my system, it was the H5X vs. the DF+, the choice was clear. Now the choice isn't as clear (and I'd have considered the XF strongly were I buying today), but that was not an option when I made my purchase. Thanks Edmund.
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Could you answer DougLevy’s post above? He seems to be Phase/H customer ...
If you're asking me to respond to P1 not making more backs for the H platform I think it's self-evident that:
1) It will be good for the continued development of the XF platform (since all resources can go there) and
2) It's highly problematic for people who have a lot of H bodies/lenses but prefer Phase One backs.
3) It's very much counter to the messaging Phase One has put out for years.
DT has been providing trade-in offers for H body/lenses to our clients that want to switch from H to XF and will continue to do so. We can usually offer market rate for these, which reduces the complexity/annoyance/risk of switching compared to selling different bits and pieces on eBay or Craiglist and shipping them different places with some (low but meaningful) risk of damage, fraud, or other inconvenience. We will also have Certified Preowned IQ3 series backs for the H series for a few years, in case someone has a bunch of H bodies/lenses with an older P1 back and just wants a more recent back without switching.
Unfortunately, I really don't see how Phase One could continue investing time/money into the H platform, when Hasselblad's own investment has been so anemic. This chart of H platform lens release dates is not very inviting for a 150mp full-frame-645 sensor; zero new full-frame lenses in the last eight years, and only two in the last 14. Likewise I can't think of any new features added to the H#X platform since the H4X in 2011 (if someone can think of some I'm forgetting, please comment). The majority of Hasselblad's lenses come from the era when they were shipping 22mp backs. Compare that to the XF Body, four major XF Feature Updates, 45 LS BR, 35 LS BR, 40-80 LS BR, 240 LS BR, and 150 f/2.8 LS BR, V Grip, WLF, and various cables/adapters all released since 2012 (a.k.a. Phase One's 80mp or 100mp eras).
I'm more than ready to be proven wrong (e.g. if Hassy announces a few new full-frame lenses and a vertical grip for the H are in development then I will gladly update this post to say I was dead wrong) but as of now it looks like Hassy is heavily focused on the X platform.
Based on the above, where would you put your development time and money if you were Phase One?
The thing I think they did wrong was not providing a few years of direct and obvious notice to users that they would be leaving the H platform. That would have been a more transparent and user-oriented way to go.
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P1 has developed the XF system, but it hasn't come out with an X1D and XCD lenses, so it's not like Hasselblad has been sitting on its hands.
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Doug,
Thank you for the response. You clearly see the issues and as a sales guy are prepared to help your customers. Maybe you and the other Doug could come to a mutually beneficial agreement ...
Btw, I agree that your argument is cogent, but maybe a different solution would work too. In any case, I would remark that Phase now has a buy-in of $50K so new customers will of necessity come in from elsewhere ...
Edmund
If you're asking me to respond to P1 not making more backs for the H platform I think it's self-evident that:
1) It will be good for the continued development of the XF platform (since all resources can go there) and
2) It's highly problematic for people who have a lot of H bodies/lenses but prefer Phase One backs.
3) It's very much counter to the messaging Phase One has put out for years.
DT has been providing trade-in offers for H body/lenses to our clients that want to switch from H to XF and will continue to do so. We can usually offer market rate for these, which reduces the complexity/annoyance/risk of switching compared to selling different bits and pieces on eBay or Craiglist and shipping them different places with some (low but meaningful) risk of damage, fraud, or other inconvenience. We will also have Certified Preowned IQ3 series backs for the H series for a few years, in case someone has a bunch of H bodies/lenses with an older P1 back and just wants a more recent back without switching.
Unfortunately, I really don't see how Phase One could continue investing time/money into the H platform, when Hasselblad's own investment has been so anemic. This chart of H platform lens release dates is not very inviting for a 150mp full-frame-645 sensor; zero new full-frame lenses in the last eight years, and only two in the last 14. Likewise I can't think of any new features added to the H#X platform since the H4X in 2011 (if someone can think of some I'm forgetting, please comment). The majority of Hasselblad's lenses come from the era when they were shipping 22mp backs. Compare that to the XF Body, four major XF Feature Updates, 45 LS BR, 35 LS BR, 40-80 LS BR, 240 LS BR, and 150 f/2.8 LS BR, V Grip, WLF, and various cables/adapters all released since 2012 (a.k.a. Phase One's 80mp or 100mp eras).
I'm more than ready to be proven wrong (e.g. if Hassy announces a few new full-frame lenses and a vertical grip for the H are in development then I will gladly update this post to say I was dead wrong) but as of now it looks like Hassy is heavily focused on the X platform.
Based on the above, where would you put your development time and money if you were Phase One?
The thing I think they did wrong was not providing a few years of direct and obvious notice to users that they would be leaving the H platform. That would have been a more transparent and user-oriented way to go.
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P1 has developed the XF system, but it hasn't come out with an X1D and XCD lenses, so it's not like Hasselblad has been sitting on its hands.
Agreed! In the last few years Hasselblad has come out with new features, new lenses, and a new body. They just aren’t for the H platform.
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If you're asking me to respond to P1 not making more backs for the H platform I think it's self-evident that:
1) It will be good for the continued development of the XF platform (since all resources can go there) and
2) It's highly problematic for people who have a lot of H bodies/lenses but prefer Phase One backs.
3) It's very much counter to the messaging Phase One has put out for years.
DT has been providing trade-in offers for H body/lenses to our clients that want to switch from H to XF and will continue to do so. We can usually offer market rate for these, which reduces the complexity/annoyance/risk of switching compared to selling different bits and pieces on eBay or Craiglist and shipping them different places with some (low but meaningful) risk of damage, fraud, or other inconvenience. We will also have Certified Preowned IQ3 series backs for the H series for a few years, in case someone has a bunch of H bodies/lenses with an older P1 back and just wants a more recent back without switching.
Unfortunately, I really don't see how Phase One could continue investing time/money into the H platform, when Hasselblad's own investment has been so anemic. This chart of H platform lens release dates is not very inviting for a 150mp full-frame-645 sensor; zero new full-frame lenses in the last eight years, and only two in the last 14. Likewise I can't think of any new features added to the H#X platform since the H4X in 2011 (if someone can think of some I'm forgetting, please comment). The majority of Hasselblad's lenses come from the era when they were shipping 22mp backs. Compare that to the XF Body, four major XF Feature Updates, 45 LS BR, 35 LS BR, 40-80 LS BR, 240 LS BR, and 150 f/2.8 LS BR, V Grip, WLF, and various cables/adapters all released since 2012 (a.k.a. Phase One's 80mp or 100mp eras).
I'm more than ready to be proven wrong (e.g. if Hassy announces a few new full-frame lenses and a vertical grip for the H are in development then I will gladly update this post to say I was dead wrong) but as of now it looks like Hassy is heavily focused on the X platform.
Based on the above, where would you put your development time and money if you were Phase One?
The thing I think they did wrong was not providing a few years of direct and obvious notice to users that they would be leaving the H platform. That would have been a more transparent and user-oriented way to go.
Doug:
You are usually smarter than to try to justify something like this. Phase has been insisting forever that it was committed to an open platform with its backs and encouraged photographers to buy Phase backs for their H series bodies. And you want to tell me it was important for Phase to stop selling Phase backs for the H because it would save a few bucks to improve the XF platform? What, $20k for the tooling? The only thing worse than hypocrisy and greed on Phase's part is someone who tries to sell it to us as reasonable. What goes a round, comes around. Even if Phase saves a few bucks by not selling new backs for the H bodies, the few bucks won't save the XF. It was DOA when it was released 5+ years late to market. I knew it the first time I tried to pick it up. The whole world is heading in one direction with smaller and lighter bodies and lenses, and Phase is either unwilling or incapable of seeing it. It just keeps pushing the same old same old. Now Phase wants to try to force the owners of H bodies and lenses who want an upgrade to move onto the XF platform.
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You are usually smarter than to try to justify something like this. Phase has been insisting forever that it was committed to an open platform with its backs and encouraged photographers to buy Phase backs for their H series bodies. And you want to tell me it was important for Phase to stop selling Phase backs for the H because it would save a few bucks to improve the XF platform? What, $20k for the tooling? The only thing worse than hypocrisy and greed on Phase's part is someone who tries to sell it to us as reasonable.
It's okay that we disagree. If I owned an H body with a P1 back I'd be pretty upset. As I said, "3) It's very much counter to the messaging Phase One has put out for years." and "they did wrong not providing a few years of direct and obvious notice to users that they would be leaving the H platform. That would have been a more transparent and user-oriented way to go."
But you miss the point about the development focusing exclusively on the XF. It's not about saving tooling costs; it's about being able to focus on one system. I suspect that will pay real benefits over time, though it comes at the cost of their users who are still on the H platform, who I think should have been given more notice.
It should be noted that "Phase hasn't stopped selling backs for the H" --- they stopped developing new models for the H. The IQ3 series is still available for H as new or CPO. I think P1 should have done a Press Release when they released the IQ3 100mp saying it would be the last back they were planning to develop for the H so users could make an informed decision as to which system they would be investing in.
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My belief is that the H is soon going to be retired, much missed, or else Hassy would rev the lenses. Hassy now have a better cash cow, the XD. Doug knows this. And Phase is going through the motions with the XF lenses, they really are, but they are playing Canute. Doug is in denial but he is starting to get it. The not so hot XF or its firmware successor the XF+ will soon move to Florida to play golf, because of the mirrorless transition.
Anyone who picks up the XD or the Fuji can see the way the wind is blowing.
Or just go read the Bernard thread aka Nikon Z thread and feel the enthusiasm.
I feel confident of my prediction: Photographers, especially the fashion crowd, love sexy toys. Whatever its virtues, sexy the XF ain’t, and the heart wins over the pocketbook every time. At least when one is young, or has the weak morals of the french, or access to a good divorce lawyer :)
Edmund
PS Sorry Doug, this has nothing to do with your messaging. Progress cannot be stopped - ask IBM. And anyway, cultural will still fill that college fund.
Doug:
You are usually smarter than to try to justify something like this. Phase has been insisting forever that it was committed to an open platform with its backs and encouraged photographers to buy Phase backs for their H series bodies. And you want to tell me it was important for Phase to stop selling Phase backs for the H because it would save a few bucks to improve the XF platform? What, $20k for the tooling? The only thing worse than hypocrisy and greed on Phase's part is someone who tries to sell it to us as reasonable. What goes a round, comes around. Even if Phase saves a few bucks by not selling new backs for the H bodies, the few bucks won't save the XF. It was DOA when it was released 5+ years late to market. I knew it the first time I tried to pick it up. The whole world is heading in one direction with smaller and lighter bodies and lenses, and Phase is either unwilling or incapable of seeing it. It just keeps pushing the same old same old. Now Phase wants to try to force the owners of H bodies and lenses who want an upgrade to move onto the XF platform.
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MirrorlessRumors is rumoring a Leica S3, no further details.
https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/leica-will-announce-the-new-s3-medium-format-camera-at-photokina/
Let’s see how this goes.
Leica usually has the best Photokina parties.
Edmund
Leica Forum says it will have 64MP (custom made 30x45mm) and the option for sensor and board upgrades for S007 owners. Not much changes otherwise (form factor, OVF, etc.) Obviously only rumors.
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Hi,
64 MP would be a major update. I would also guess that the new sensor would be a new design, from TowerJazz.
Best regards
Erik
Leica Forum says it will have 64MP (custom made 30x45mm) and the option for sensor and board upgrades for S007 owners. Not much changes otherwise (form factor, OVF, etc.) Obviously only rumors.
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The XF is damn sexy - just needs a standard 2.5mm remote cable ;D I love that the moment we get FF 645 digital, everyone wants it mirrorless. Pick one or the other folks! Would hope that someone does a T/S adapter for the BR P645 glass
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Same here. A smart TS Adapter for the GFX and Phase One lenses would be amazing. Stitching with lenses like the 35/45/120/150 would be amazing.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Same here. A smart TS Adapter for the GFX and Phase One lenses would be amazing. Stitching with lenses like the 35/45/120/150 would be amazing.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Hey, I agree. One could also adapt to Hassy XD. Also, some of those old Mamiya lenses are the cheapest miracles you can get. I'm thinking of the 150 3.5 and the 120/4 Macro the latter is incredibly sharp. I think even the 80 is pretty good.
I'm seeing a Mamiya 120/4 for $268 on KEH. That's probably the price of a Hassy lenscap.
Edmund
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Yep, but I have the feeling it won’t happen.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Yep, but I have the feeling it won’t happen.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
There's a bunch of Mamiya to GFX adapters like this fotodiox
https://fotodioxpro.com/products/m645-gfx-pro
And for tilt-shift you could always use a Mamiya to Canon adapter or similar, add Stefan's superrotator and ... voilà.
Edmund
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Yes, but honestly I would Wand at least aperture control on my lenses. So many of them are amazing wide open and stopped down.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Yes, but honestly I would Wand at least aperture control on my lenses. So many of them are amazing wide open and stopped down.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Take it up with Kipon etc. and ask the guys in the Hassy thread below too. If there’s a market it will get served.
Edmund
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Ok, it's a slow news day. Here are instructions on how to mod your favorite MF camera for wet plate.
Just what you need if you have a spare Phamiya lying around.
https://www.lomography.com/magazine/256265-converting-medium-format-instant-pack-film-back-into-wet-plate
Edmund
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Bump: Updated for latest GFX 50R info
Edmund
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Bump: Updated for latest GFX 50R info
Edmund
Btw Fuji GFX 100S release this year is looking increasingly unlikely
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Rumored pricing for the GFX 50R is creeping up to $4500.
The XD1 is now $6495 at B&H and I suspect it will fall further.
Maybe Hassy can actually stay competitive with Fuji for the bodies now that it's not anymore Fuji who make their bodies for them. 8)
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=hasselblad%20xd1&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=hist-ma&Top+Nav-Search=
Edmund
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Maybe Hassy can actually stay competitive with Fuji for the bodies now that it's not anymore Fuji who make their bodies for them. 8)
Fuji never built the H cameras, only the lenses and viewfinder prism. If you had a H system, you would find out that the lenses and viewfinder say "made in Japan" and the camera "made in Sweden".
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Fuji never built the H cameras, only the lenses and viewfinder prism. If you had a H system, you would find out that the lenses and viewfinder say "made in Japan" and the camera "made in Sweden".
Thank you for the correction. A journalist is only as good as his sources.
Here is an online review of one of Fuji's earlier MF "oversized travel compacts", the Fuji GA645 with its fixed 60mm lens.
The review and the comments are very positive, so historically speaking the company understands this market.
Whether it is still a relevant product when 35mm has become so good is a different question.
Back when I was younger, I never knew that there was such a thing as a medium format point-and-shoot.
Which I guess demonstrates an ignorance even worse than not knowing that the Hassy H body is made in Sweden (but not the finder or lenses).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02AJ8v_ZvRo
Edmund
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Fuji certainly built several MF cameras. The common misconception that they also built the H1 comes from the fact that Fuji sold the same camera in Japan under the name GX645AF (but it was still built by Hasselblad, GX645AF cameras bear the inscription "made in Sweden"...).
The Hasselblad-Fuji collaboration means that Fuji still co-own the mount, even if they discontinued the GX645AF long ago. That allowed Fuji to issue an adapter for that mount to the GFX cameras...
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Here is the Rollei Instax
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rolleiinstantcamera/rolleiflextm-instant-kamera
It’s a slow news day.
Edmund
Fuji certainly built several MF cameras. The common misconception that they also built the H1 comes from the fact that Fuji sold the same camera in Japan under the name GX645AF (but it was still built by Hasselblad, GX645AF cameras bear the inscription "made in Sweden"...).
The Hasselblad-Fuji collaboration means that Fuji still co-own the mount, even if they discontinued the GX645AF long ago. That allowed Fuji to issue an adapter for that mount to the GFX cameras...
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Here is the Rollei Instax
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rolleiinstantcamera/rolleiflextm-instant-kamera
It’s a slow news day.
Edmund
Finally a real medium format camera with 46x62mm output ;)
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You can get a similar camera now:
https://mint-camera.com/en/shop/cameras/instantflex-tl70-gen2/
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1258498-REG/mint_camera_instantflex_tl70_2_0_instant.html/?ap=y
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You can get a similar camera now:
https://mint-camera.com/en/shop/cameras/instantflex-tl70-gen2/
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1258498-REG/mint_camera_instantflex_tl70_2_0_instant.html/?ap=y
Yes and as long as you advertise them by getting 30 likes a day for a pic of their camera they will send you UNLIMITED FREE FILM.
https://mint-camera.com/en/shop/films/unlimited-free-films/
Sounds like a free lunch to me :)
Or rather, the Kardashians will never run out of film.
Edmund
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Y'all seen the update (https://www.fujirumors.com/breaking-fujifilm-gfx-100s-development-announcement-on-september-25-at-0730-am-new-york-time/) about the 50R and 100S *both* being announced on Sept 25th?
Makes sense. They wouldn't have discounted the existing 50S so heavily if the new 100S was not imminent. Clearly trying to sell off existing stock before this one drops.
Plus Phase have forced their hand - the IQ4-150 is tempting people and draining their wallets, so time to make the 100S public, and entice people to hold out, even if it's not arriving till 2019.
50R looks great there, though I wish it were a 100R!
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I don’t think Fuji care about Phase. A GFX 50R will cost about as much as a Phase 150 lenscap.
;D
Edmund
Y'all seen the update (https://www.fujirumors.com/breaking-fujifilm-gfx-100s-development-announcement-on-september-25-at-0730-am-new-york-time/) about the 50R and 100S *both* being announced on Sept 25th?
Makes sense. They wouldn't have discounted the existing 50S so heavily if the new 100S was not imminent. Clearly trying to sell off existing stock before this one drops.
Plus Phase have forced their hand - the IQ4-150 is tempting people and draining their wallets, so time to make the 100S public, and entice people to hold out, even if it's not arriving till 2019.
50R looks great there, though I wish it were a 100R!
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I don’t think Fuji care about Phase. A GFX 50R will cost about as much as a Phase 150 lenscap.
;D
Edmund
The GFX100S could well see a price bump from 50S. Though it will be great if it doesn't!
The Phase/Fuji maths from my end: spend ~20k for an IQ3 to IQ4 upgrade, OR spend 7-8k to get new tech BSI sensor benefits (plus IBIS?) - hmmm... Sell your IQ3-100 for an acceptable price, and it's a no brainer: a free update to new tech for zero cost? Very tempting, depending on when the 100S is a reality.
If you don't have an IQ at all, and were buying into MF from ground floor, then, I'd only be looking at the Fuji.
If you had the $ for a high Mp FF mirrorless system, say 3-4k, I'd look hard at the 50R, over Sony or Canon or Nikon.
Fuji seem on a roll, and this could be the major news of Photokina season.
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The Phase/Fuji maths from my end: spend ~20k for an IQ3 to IQ4 upgrade, OR spend 7-8k to get new tech BSI sensor benefits (plus IBIS?) - hmmm... Sell your IQ3-100 for an acceptable price, and it's a no brainer: a free update to new tech for zero cost? Very tempting, depending on when the 100S is a reality.
The biggest issue for me in doing this is lack of Capture One Support for the Fuji. I'm still hoping that this changes now that Phase is out of the cropped medium format business...
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I would not count on P1 ever supporting the Fuji. When the 100MP is announced (whenever), both Fuji and H1 will have a solution with it. Sure it's cropped 44 x 33, but it's still MF and a very serious competition for P1. Especially if any form of on chip stabilization is available. Many seem to feel IBIS is not a big deal, to me it is. Especially based on Fuji's implementation with the X-H1.
P1 has not yet made any announcements towards a mirrorless solution, maybe they just don't plan on one, but if they do, then the entire chip issue will come back to play.
P1 has stated that the smaller chips are inferior to the larger ones. But last fall the only way to get true color was the trichromatic back. The new 150Mp is back to the standard bayer pattern (if I read the announcements correctly). So until P1 announces a mirrorless I guess the 44 x 33 chips are inferior.
The only thing I have seen on the 150MP back is that it's apparent that the BSI chip does much better with color cast on tech lenses, impressively. I assume it will also handle crosstalk and saturation loss on shifts better also.
Paul C
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I would not count on P1 ever supporting the Fuji. When the 100MP is announced (whenever), both Fuji and H1 will have a solution with it. Sure it's cropped 44 x 33, but it's still MF and a very serious competition for P1. Especially if any form of on chip stabilization is available. Many seem to feel IBIS is not a big deal, to me it is. Especially based on Fuji's implementation with the X-H1.
P1 has not yet made any announcements towards a mirrorless solution, maybe they just don't plan on one, but if they do, then the entire chip issue will come back to play.
P1 has stated that the smaller chips are inferior to the larger ones. But last fall the only way to get true color was the trichromatic back. The new 150Mp is back to the standard bayer pattern (if I read the announcements correctly). So until P1 announces a mirrorless I guess the 44 x 33 chips are inferior.
The only thing I have seen on the 150MP back is that it's apparent that the BSI chip does much better with color cast on tech lenses, impressively. I assume it will also handle crosstalk and saturation loss on shifts better also.
Paul C
Paul, the new crop 100Mp chip from Sony is BSI too, as can be seen from the Sony roadmap link referenced in the updating first post on this thread.
The rumors of a Fuji native TS solution are there, and the media drumup surrounding the impending GFX 50R is very insistent, indicating that Fuji is putting real muscle behind this release. The company has good distribution and a strong domestic market in Japan, which means they can afford low margins.
As chip deals are usually based on quantities, and on production yields, I expect Fuji will probably be able to evolve their prices downwards: GFX is a unique product and if they can price it low enough they will soon own a very lucrative place at the top of the digital photography enthusiast market.
If Hasselblad play their cards right they should be able to conserve an elegant design with few but effective features like leaf shutter, and ride on the coat-tails of Fuji's MF marketing.
It is not just this GFX series or the applauded X-T3 dSLR product, but the revival of Fuji which is the story of Photokina 2018.
Phase One has moved to Florida and is living on the dividends from Getty Oil shares :)
Edmund
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The biggest issue for me in doing this is lack of Capture One Support for the Fuji. I'm still hoping that this changes now that Phase is out of the cropped medium format business...
Agreed. I would miss C1's amazing color too much to use Lightroom or whatever.
That said, the hacks to process GFX files on C1 will only get better, automated even. Phase does support this new gen 100mp BSI sensor, as they use it themselves in one of their aerial cameras, just not this camera. So you can trick C1 into processing the files, but what you can't do is tether. That may be a deal breaker for many. (not me, don't work tethered)
The 100mp GFX is such a threat to Phase's core business, I can't see them supporting it ever. Love to be wrong though!
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P1 has not yet made any announcements towards a mirrorless solution, maybe they just don't plan on one, but if they do, then the entire chip issue will come back to play.
Yes, it is strange there was not an XF2 camera announcement, to go with the new IQ4 backs. Maybe this is a sign they are working on something? Or maybe I'm wishing on a star..!
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Hi Paul,
Your analysis is interesting to read. My take is that the GFX is developed around the 44x33 mm sensor. I would guess that the GFX100s will be a good match for the IQ4100 regarding image quality, at least at base ISO.
The IQ4150 is obviously a step up, but not a really big step. It is just 50% on are or 22% linear.
Would be interesting to find out about your take on the Thrichromatic. My guess is that the major benefit with the Thrichromatic was steeper IR and UV filtering compared to the normal sensor. Reduced out of focus color fringing is a very strong indication of that. Phase one could very easily upgrade the cover glass design, I would guess.
To that comes Capture One, of course. It is a bit oddball if it works with DNG files on the GFX as that would indicate that CFA design is identical between Fuji GFX and IQ350. Doug Peterson indicated that the IQ4150 did not need 'Thrichromatic'. My guess may be that the IQ4150 may have new cover glass design.
It may be that Phase One goes high end only and will not compete head on with Fuji GFX and Hasselblad X?D?
Best regards
Erik
I would not count on P1 ever supporting the Fuji. When the 100MP is announced (whenever), both Fuji and H1 will have a solution with it. Sure it's cropped 44 x 33, but it's still MF and a very serious competition for P1. Especially if any form of on chip stabilization is available. Many seem to feel IBIS is not a big deal, to me it is. Especially based on Fuji's implementation with the X-H1.
P1 has not yet made any announcements towards a mirrorless solution, maybe they just don't plan on one, but if they do, then the entire chip issue will come back to play.
P1 has stated that the smaller chips are inferior to the larger ones. But last fall the only way to get true color was the trichromatic back. The new 150Mp is back to the standard bayer pattern (if I read the announcements correctly). So until P1 announces a mirrorless I guess the 44 x 33 chips are inferior.
The only thing I have seen on the 150MP back is that it's apparent that the BSI chip does much better with color cast on tech lenses, impressively. I assume it will also handle crosstalk and saturation loss on shifts better also.
Paul C
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Hi Paul,
Your analysis is interesting to read. My take is that the GFX is developed around the 44x33 mm sensor. I would guess that the GFX100s will be a good match for the IQ4100 regarding image quality, at least at base ISO.
But there is no IQ4-100 - so ?? Unless I missed something, there is an aerial camera with this sensor, but not an IQback.
The IQ4150 is obviously a step up, but not a really big step. It is just 50% on are or 22% linear.
I see the jump as pretty big: Phase going from 60>80>100mp were impressive at the time, and going from 100>150mp is a much bigger leap. And that's not factoring in BSI, etc.
That said, the Fuji going from 50>100mp is huge, plus BSI plus maybe IBIS. Should be a game changer for Fuji.
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There are three ways of filtering known to me.
- The Leica S original had UV filtration built in to the lenses.
- Schott glass with a slow falloff was used in the cover glass of M9
- thin film interference filtersbare much used.
surprises often occur, Red leant it too at their expense.
Edmund
Hi Paul,
Your analysis is interesting to read. My take is that the GFX is developed around the 44x33 mm sensor. I would guess that the GFX100s will be a good match for the IQ4100 regarding image quality, at least at base ISO.
The IQ4150 is obviously a step up, but not a really big step. It is just 50% on are or 22% linear.
Would be interesting to find out about your take on the Thrichromatic. My guess is that the major benefit with the Thrichromatic was steeper IR and UV filtering compared to the normal sensor. Reduced out of focus color fringing is a very strong indication of that. Phase one could very easily upgrade the cover glass design, I would guess.
To that comes Capture One, of course. It is a bit oddball if it works with DNG files on the GFX as that would indicate that CFA design is identical between Fuji GFX and IQ350. Doug Peterson indicated that the IQ4150 did not need 'Thrichromatic'. My guess may be that the IQ4150 may have new cover glass design.
It may be that Phase One goes high end only and will not compete head on with Fuji GFX and Hasselblad X?D?
Best regards
Erik
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I see the jump as pretty big: Phase going from 60>80>100mp were impressive at the time, and going from 100>150mp is a much bigger leap. And that's not factoring in BSI, etc.
I think that the main practical appeal will be for tech camera users though.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Doug Peterson indicated that the IQ4150 did not need 'Thrichromatic'.
That’s not accurate. I said Phase One made this claim, and that I was skeptical and would need to do my own testing to reach my own conclusion.
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But there is no IQ4-100 - so ?? Unless I missed something, there is an aerial camera with this sensor, but not an IQback.
There is, but it is not a new BSI sensor, but the 'old' Trichromatic sensor on the Infinite Platform.
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That’s not accurate. I said Phase One made this claim, and that I was skeptical and would need to do my own testing to reach my own conclusion.
Do we have a case of split personality manifesting here? Some independent thought transitioning into independent speech?
What will come next? A praise of compact symmetrical lenses as preferable to Phase One wides?
My confidence in the immutability of the natural order of things is now shaken to the core.
We are but impermanent ants in an impermanent world, O master, and heed your enlightening words of change :)
Edmund
PS. Please follow me on Instagram!
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Update about Fuji for those with no time to browse
Fuji is getting a HUGE amount of positive PR on the web, with the GFX 50R release rumors going viral; they are being presented as the company bringing MF to the masses. Paradoxically, the rumored 50R is now viewed as a sure thing, real soon now, so some nudge nudge wink must have happened, but the 100S is retreating into the fog of a confirmed product with a probable 2019 release, with an unknown featurelist.
At this point, the Fuji GFX series is clearly being moved from a minor product to corporate flagship status.
My gut tells me to expect a few strong lens statements. A fast portrait lens, a superwide, a pancake for the 50R urban/travel crowd, and a tilt-shift announcement as a necessary PR move to confirm the camera system’s pro status. I’d expect the TS to be timed to arrive with the 100S, whose BSI sensor is more forgiving for off-center rays.
One should also expect CPS-like enticements and aids for pro users, as Fuji moves upstream into territory occupied by Canon, Nikon, ... and Hasselblad.
Edmund
PS if you wish to encourage me, please follow my art endeavours on Instagram!
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General MF update: The effects of the Apple keynote.
After the iPhone Xs launch, all camera companies are going to be scrambling to provide computational photography tricks like adjustable depth of field and bokeh and extreme HDR. The Apple tech demos are compelling in their user benefits.
The novel bokeh features are enabled by a depth map created from the the focus pixels on the sensor, and considerable AI image processing.
Present day camera electronics probably cannot handle these tasks; nor can manufacturer firmware developers be expected to replicate this very complex AI software. I would expect Sony to provide custom silicon in the near future, and in the meantime camera companies will provide PC-based processing to attempt to stay in the game.
I would expect Phase to be on the phone to Seattle right now, screaming for help to keep C1 relevant when every bride demands iPhone effects. Adobe are probably going to hire every bright russian or indian kid they can find as they suddenly realize machine learning is now a core Photoshop technology, and not just an advertising and web moneymaker.
Edmund
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MF cameras such as my H6D 100 are slow, clunky, heavy and lack the portability of a system as a whole. Many photographers who get a taste of lightweight, fast, big aperture lenses, long battery life, helpful firmware choices with the likes of mirrorless cameras shooting anything but landscapes must find it hard to go backwards. If the subject moves and you can shoot at 8-20 FPS and not have to bring a two wheeler to lug around your system and you get great IQ then it’s a no brainer.
As for Hasselblad so far they have not shown any DJI money turned into progress so we wait until the 25th and I’ll give them the benifit of doubt. It’s however becoming increasingly difficult to believe since every other brand has shown their hand with a glimpse or a rumor but not H.
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MF cameras such as my H6D 100 are slow, clunky, heavy and lack the portability of a system as a whole. Many photographers who get a taste of lightweight, fast, big aperture lenses, long battery life, helpful firmware choices with the likes of mirrorless cameras shooting anything but landscapes must find it hard to go backwards. If the subject moves and you can shoot at 8-20 FPS and not have to bring a two wheeler to lug around your system and you get great IQ then it’s a no brainer.
As for Hasselblad so far they have not shown any DJI money turned into progress so we wait until the 25th and I’ll give them the benifit of doubt. It’s however becoming increasingly difficult to believe since every other brand has shown their hand with a glimpse or a rumor but not H.
My feeling - I guess if you are posting in this thread you expect me and others to comment - is that Hassy are using the DJI money to push the XD which is a sweet design and selling well in the luxury enthusiast sector and to some pros. This round the XD will move to 100Mp, and the H will get a 150MP update and possibly a cheapish 100MP crop back, and a 600MP multishot. I don't know how long the H is going to live, but my guess is it's going to move out of the way once the XD is going strong. I don't see any new H lenses coming out. When the current 100Mp H ends up sold at bargain prices, I think I'lll buy one for old times sake, just to have a Tyrannosaurus skeleton on display in my den :)
Fuji share the rights to the H mount as someone here pointed out, so there is an H-Fuji adapter and I guess there is also a Fuji-Leica S adapter and an H to XD mount adapter and so people can walk away from the brand and keep their lenses going. Or if they don't need leaf shutters right now, they can move to Fuji for zero cost by ebaying their Hassy stuff.
Edmund
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General MF update: The effects of the Apple keynote.
After the iPhone Xs launch, all camera companies are going to be scrambling to provide computational photography tricks like adjustable depth of field and bokeh and extreme HDR. The Apple tech demos are compelling in their user benefits.
The novel bokeh features are enabled by a depth map created from the the focus pixels on the sensor, and considerable AI image processing.
Present day camera electronics probably cannot handle these tasks; nor can manufacturer firmware developers be expected to replicate this very complex AI software.
I admit a smug pleasure in seeing the internet obsession with bokeh! as an argument for larger formats and larger lenses with larger apertures being flipped into an argument for using a phone—or to be fair, using a camera with good image processing options. Because although I acknowledge some legitimate artistic reasons for wanting some parts of the image blurred, it seems that in many cases, it is more like a analog version of an Instagram filter.
And yet I know that — like other evidence of smaller formats being able to match and outdo what used to require a larger format and larger lenses — this will be inverted into a prediction of a shift up the size scale: APS-C mostly displaced by 36x24, 44x33 luring photographers from 36x24 (rather than from 54x40), 24-70/2 or 58/0.95 lenses as new essential tools for any serious or professional photographer ...
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BJL
I learnt photography with large-negative cameras from the 1910 era, and had no subject separation issues. DOF was a problem.
My high-school Leica from the 40s had a Sonnar 1.5 50mm lens, adapted from Contax, and no separation issues, and bubbles in the lens that gave a nice diffuse glow when wide open.
My university time SLR had a 55mm F1.7 lens.
Now the phones have wide angle lenses with huge dof, and it is impossible to get decent subject separation when doing a portrait. That is why computational bokeh is hot, not because people are searching for extreme blur.
No consumer had access to such wide angle lenses before phones happened.
The desire for mildly blurred backgrounds is simply a return to the esthetics of the 1950s - if you buy a Diana (Lomo?) and a roll of 100 ISO , 120 roll film you'll get background blur.
Edmund
I admit a smug pleasure in seeing the internet obsession with bokeh! as an argument for larger formats and larger lenses with larger apertures being flipped into an argument for using a phone—or to be fair, using a camera with good image processing options. Because although I acknowledge some legitimate artistic reasons for wanting some parts of the image blurred, it seems that in many cases, it is more like a analog version of an Instagram filter.
And yet I know that — like other evidence of smaller formats being able to match and outdo what used to require a larger format and larger lenses — this will be inverted into a prediction of a shift up the size scale: APS-C mostly displaced by 36x24, 44x33 luring photographers from 36x24 (rather than from 54x40), 24-70/2 or 58/0.95 lenses as new essential tools for any serious or professional photographer ...
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As for Hasselblad so far they have not shown any DJI money turned into progress so we wait until the 25th and I’ll give them the benifit of doubt. It’s however becoming increasingly difficult to believe since every other brand has shown their hand with a glimpse or a rumor but not H.
That is incorrect. How about that tiny L1D-20c sitting under the mavic 2 pro? That is the only final, shipped product of the recent announcements.
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Now the phones have wide angle lenses with huge dof, and it is impossible to get decent subject separation when doing a portrait. That is why computational bokeh is hot, not because people are searching for extreme blur.
...
The desire for mildly blurred backgrounds is simply a return to the esthetics of the 1950s ...
I am not saying otherwise (did I say anything about extreme blur?). I am just noting that fulfilling that desire for "mildly blurred backgrounds" could cease to be much of an argument for bigger, heavier lenses and bigger, more expensive sensors. Maybe high shutter speed/low light photography will reassert itself as the main and more fundamental reason for larger apertures.
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After years of focus on capturing as much information in a scene as possible with computational photography off-camera (stitching, DoF stacking,...), I am excited to see the field expanding to in-camera applications.
I find it interesting that the most relevant application today is to get less DoF.
Interesting but not surprising since the control of DoF has always been one key aspect of photography. I would argue that it is probably the first moment of truth materializing the fact the photography is an interpretation of reality and not a mere attempt to capture a snapshot or reality.
The camera in phones was first about recording reality. But now, thanks in great part to DoF control, it is IMHO turning into photography as perceived intuitively by non expert users. It is one essential milestone in the perception of the positioning of smartphones amidst the real cameras.
Cheers,
Bernard
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After years of focus on capturing as much information in a scene as possible with computational photography off-camera (stitching, DoF stacking,...), I am excited to see the field expanding to in-camera applications.
I find it interesting that the most relevant application today is to get less DoF.
Interesting but not surprising since the control of DoF has always been one key aspect of photography. I would argue that it is probably the first moment of truth materializing the fact the photography is an interpretation of reality and not a mere attempt to capture a snapshot or reality.
The camera in phones was first about recording reality. But now, thanks in great part to DoF control, it is IMHO turning into photography as perceived intuitively by non expert users. It is one essential milestone in the perception of the positioning of smartphones amidst the real cameras.
Cheers,
Bernard
Bernard,
You dish out abstraction with the panache of a french chef serving crêpes.
It's interesting to see how long it took for the computer in the camera to catch up with the camera. But is was to be expected that the computer in the camera would swallow the camera.
If I understand the Apple keynote rightly, the variable bokeh is obtained by using a fairly coarse depth map to attempt an inverse render, determine the objects and then re-render. I guess that's more or less what I do when I draw. In which case I would say that a key feature of photography - the assumption of reality - has now been abstracted away, and the capture has become a chimera dreamed by a machine. But then we knew that already. Just look at your average auto-cleaned selfy.
So I agree with you.
What is interesting is that for you the smartphone is the smart object which can do that by itself, according to the user's desires. The big camera is not hooked up to the Google or Apple cloud, it can't add mascara and lipstick, reshape a chin, move away a frenemy or resize a waist. The big camera is as dumb as that big hairy lout who's using it, the man who doesn't understand how teens see the world - Papa.
So the smartphone is a tollgate to mediated perception. It can view what is received, but it can edit what will be sent. The big camera is just a capture device that cannot edit.
But we knew that too, from the beginning. The brains are in the net. As time moves on, anything that is not connected is insignificant, onboard software will be deprecated in favor of symbiotic local/remote coprocessing. The present state where online software is cached as "apps" is just a momentary phase. The smartphone "terminal" is mightier than the 150Mp camera "standalone device".
Which is why teens have stopped buying cameras, and they're not going to start again :)
Edmund
PS. I prefer crêpes to abstraction any day of the week; actually the one nice thing about winter is one can eat crêpes outside.
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Which is why teens have stopped buying cameras, and they're not going to start again :)
Not just teens.
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* deleted *
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Which is why teens have stopped buying cameras
Unless it is built by Lomo.
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Unless it is built by Lomo.
Or called Instax, and medium format :)
Edmund
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Or called Instax, and medium format :)
Edmund
The Fuji Leaks about the "rangefinder" GFX 50R are getting more insistent.
Some "sketches" have dropped.
Fuji PR is milking the suspense for all it's worth.
Drip, drip, drip.
https://www.fujirumors.com/leaked-this-is-the-fujifilm-gfx-50r-accurate-sketches/
Edmund
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The Fuji Leaks about the "rangefinder" GFX 50R are getting more insistent.
https://www.fujirumors.com/leaked-this-is-the-fujifilm-gfx-50r-accurate-sketches/
Edmund
One thing to remember about the GFX-50R 'compact' MF rangefinder, is that due to immutable laws of physics, it can never really be that small. The body can be compact-ish, but not the lenses: a 'standard' lens for this would be about 60-70mm, and be far larger than a 'standard' FF lens, and much, much larger than an APS-C 'standard'. These are optical laws that cannot be broken.
Sure, there might be a pancake lens released by Fuji/someone, but it will likely have poor edge performance, with strong CA, from design compromises. Good lenses, that is: lenses good enough for a 50 or 100Mp sensor, will be big and near impossible to shrink meaningfully.
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I feel fairly confident predicting a compact 40mm lens to go with the GFX 50R.
Edmund
PS please like and follow my Instagram.
One thing to remember about the GFX-50R 'compact' MF rangefinder, is that due to immutable laws of physics, it can never really be that small. The body can be compact-ish, but not the lenses: a 'standard' lens for this would be about 60-70mm, and be far larger than a 'standard' FF lens, and much, much larger than an APS-C 'standard'. These are optical laws that cannot be broken.
Sure, there might be a pancake lens released by Fuji/someone, but it will likely have poor edge performance, with strong CA, from design compromises. Good lenses, that is: lenses good enough for a 50 or 100Mp sensor, will be big and near impossible to shrink meaningfully.
Narikin,
By Pythagoras, the image radius of 24*36 is 21.63mm, and that of 44x33m is 27.5mm so the ratio is 1.27, in other words the necessary image radius has increased by 27%.
Leica has shown us that one can have some very compact pancake wides suitable for street and travel photography, eg the 35mmf2 Summicron, provided one has enough DR to correct for falloff, and provided the microlenses on the sensor are suitably arranged. They have also demonstrated collapsible pullout designs ad nauseam, while in both cases retaining what their aficionados claim to be decent lens quality.
I don't think that a 27% increase in coverage radius will invalidate this calculus, if eg. one moves to a 40 or 45mm lens. I believe CA is actually one of the design flaws that is fairly easy to deal with in software. Because we should remember that the lenses used for an EVF camera just need to be correctable, they don't have to be "good".
My expectation of a fairly compact travel lens still stands. The domestic japanese customer base will want compact. Of course we could see some collapsible tricks as well :)
I would remind you that very compact symmetric wides are seen on the medium format Alpa. If you believe a compact or possibly foldable design does violate some law of opticks, please feel free to educate me.
Edmund
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The drip of leaks and mockups for the Fuji GFX-50R is continuing.
At this point I'd say the only real unknown is the exact price.
If the Fuji is a hit -looks like it will be- I'd expect Hassy to create an entry-priced bundle to compete in the same niche.
Unless Pentax or Phase drop a new product, Hassy and Pentax will be fighting it out for the MF mirrorless market for some time.
I'd expect the membership of this forum to change over time to reflect this new reality.
Edmund
PS. Please like my instagram :)
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Here you can see one mockup body size comparison of the new gfx-50R camera and the gfx-50S and hassy.
Body is said to be 40mm, no cooling box, substantially thinner than today’s Fuji.
Edmund
https://photorumors.com/2018/09/18/fujifilm-gfx-50r-affordable-medium-format-mirrorless-camera-mockup/
The drip of leaks and mockups for the Fuji GFX-50R is continuing.
At this point I'd say the only real unknown is the exact price.
If the Fuji is a hit -looks like it will be- I'd expect Hassy to create an entry-priced bundle to compete in the same niche.
Unless Pentax or Phase drop a new product, Hassy and Pentax will be fighting it out for the MF mirrorless market for some time.
I'd expect the membership of this forum to change over time to reflect this new reality.
Edmund
PS. Please like my instagram :)
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I feel fairly confident predicting a compact 40mm lens to go with the GFX 50R.
With respect, re-posting a rumor about a 40mm pancake lens from another website is not 'predicting'..!
Nb Photorumors has it as an "equivalent 40mm lens", not a 40mm. No idea whats correct.
That aside, well, they kind of have to release a lens like this, otherwise it would be clear this is an unbalanced camera with big MF lenses on a compact body. I'll stand by my assertion that an equivalent 40mm 'pancake' type lens will have inferior performance compared to say the regular 45mm GFX lens. Resolution and CA will suffer to a degree. Whether that trade off is worth it, is for individual photographers to decide. It may well be.
It should also be pretty affordable, with fewer elements and simpler design. Traditionally these are Tessar style formulations.
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I can't see Fuji issuing an inferior 40mm lens for the GFR50. The whole point of MF is image quality, not compact size.
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I am not reposting some other site’s rumor, I am stating that I believe Fuji will listen to customer demand for a travel compact MF set and supply some sort of compact wide, which I would assume to be a 35mm wide scaled up by a factor of 1.27, roughly, because that will be a natural expectation for many enthusiasts and a design type that can be compact. My belief is that designs scale by small amounts and so some existing 35mm pancake lens design for 35mm systems can be scaled up a bit and fit the bill.
Edmund
With respect, re-posting a rumor about a 40mm pancake lens from another website is not 'predicting'..!
Nb Photorumors has it as an "equivalent 40mm lens", not a 40mm. No idea whats correct.
That aside, well, they kind of have to release a lens like this, otherwise it would be clear this is an unbalanced camera with big MF lenses on a compact body. I'll stand by my assertion that an equivalent 40mm 'pancake' type lens will have inferior performance compared to say the regular 45mm GFX lens. Resolution and CA will suffer to a degree. Whether that trade off is worth it, is for individual photographers to decide. It may well be.
It should also be pretty affordable, with fewer elements and simpler design. Traditionally these are Tessar style formulations.
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I can't see Fuji issuing an inferior 40mm lens for the GFR50. The whole point of MF is image quality, not compact size.
They may issue a “plastic fantastic”. This is what the Canon 50mm 1.8 and Nikon 50 are sometimes called. They cost almost nothing, are cheaply built, compact, and have very good performance, if what one wants is real world imagery. Leica/Minolta solved the same cheap travel compact problem with a 40mm compact lens for the Leica CL.
I used 50mm 1.8 lenses for years on expensive Canon bodies while traveling, and was never disappointed.
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As I remember it, those lenses were known as "nifty fifties". "Plastic fantastic" referred to all those crappy plastic amorphous camera bodies so popular in the '80s and '90s. Having lived through it, it was a disastrous time. The term was later appropriated for toy cameras. We'll just have to wait and see what Fuji announces next week.
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As I remember it, those lenses were known as "nifty fifties". "Plastic fantastic" referred to all those crappy plastic amorphous camera bodies so popular in the '80s and '90s. Having lived through it, it was a disastrous time. The term was later appropriated for toy cameras. We'll just have to wait and see what Fuji announces next week.
Maybe we won't need to wait that long.
I think the faucet drip will become a flood soon :)
What commercial terms Hassy is going to announce to keep its customers, is what interests me more than the specs of a camera which I feel has been completely described ...
Edmund
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My guess is no X1(2)D - 100 or GFX 100 till spring next year. They might announce the development, but as far as I know the sensor is available in very limited numbers and there are companies paying a premium for it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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My guess is no X1(2)D - 100 or GFX 100 till spring next year. They might announce the development, but as far as I know the sensor is available in very limited numbers and there are companies paying a premium for it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sounds to me that Hassy might have a serious case of the Osborne problem them - killing your existing product by announcing the successor, while not being able to supply the successor. Of course, Fuji can make money even on a low priced GFX 50R - but what will Hassy sell profiitably for the next few months?
Has Fuji tricked Hassy into a deadly marketing corner?
Edmund
Edmund
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The new 40mm Zeiss Batis (for Sony) is being announced next week, and is widely leaked. Pretty big lens, and that's 'only' for FF35mm.
To hit the numbers (MTF, Distortion, CA) Zeiss/Sony are having to go for a Distagon formulation, which is not small. (interestingly the Otus range are called 'Apo Distagon' by Zeiss, so them too). Basically afaik, Distagon types get the light to enter the sensor cells more head-on, than it otherwise would with Biogon type formulation.
I too am in favor of cheap compact lenses, (who isn't?!) but we all have to recognise there is a trade off. I own the Plastic 50/1.8 for Canon and used it on a 5DSR at times because of its aberrations and corner funkiness. Nobody is saying Fuji will release a rubbish lens, just reminding to be aware a compact ~40mm equivalent will be a step below one not formulated under such design constraints. You (and I) may feel the trade off is well worth it.
There are plenty of pancake lenses out there, from Canon's 40mm (amazingly compact, super cheap, but poor corners and very strong field curvature) to Large Format even - Nikkor's M View Camera series. It's great they exist. No debate about that.
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Ming (Hasselblad's Chief of Strategy) answered in his blog to a question about the rumored Hasselblad X2D:
"Actually, two years is a very short product cycle at this price point. I don’t think people who just invested would be happy at a replacement either…nor is the market large enough to support this rate of churn. So, those factors have to be taken into account when planning product…"
Make of that what you want.
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Fuji has a great product offering with the GFX50. I have no idea why people are focused on a 100MP sensor. I’m more interested in a smaller and even lighter package with IBIS, greater lens selection and a better user interface. I realize that from a marketing perspective they may want to offer 100MP camera, but I can’t imagine the incremental users they would gain would be worth it.
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Ok, here's a random theory I'm going to throw in here for fun:
It's being confirmed that the GFX-100 is not arriving till Q2 next year. i.e. Spring, which has disappointed many people who were hoping for it this fall/ winter. I happen to know that Phase have invited all their international dealers to Germany for a meeting over the next few days. i.e. now - right before Photokina. It can't be for the IQ4, as that is out there, announced and deposits taken. So... clearly something else is afoot - are Phase about to announce a surprise, like a completely new compact camera taking on Fuji and Hasselblad? Here's the conspiracy bit... Phase are probably Sony's biggest customer ($ terms) by a long way, might they have got 3-6 month exclusive rights for the new 100mp BSI sensor and are going to release their own mirrorless body with it?!
Pure conjecture on my part, but... you never know!
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Ok, here's a random theory I'm going to throw in here for fun:
It's being confirmed that the GFX-100 is not arriving till Q2 next year. i.e. Spring, which has disappointed many people who were hoping for it this fall/ winter. I happen to know that Phase have invited all their international dealers to Germany for a meeting over the next few days. i.e. now - right before Photokina. It can't be for the IQ4, as that is out there, announced and deposits taken. So... clearly something else is afoot - are Phase about to announce a surprise, like a completely new compact camera taking on Fuji and Hasselblad? Here's the conspiracy bit... Phase are probably Sony's biggest customer ($ terms) by a long way, might they have got 3-6 month exclusive rights for the new 100mp BSI sensor and are going to release their own mirrorless body with it?!
Pure conjecture on my part, but... you never know!
Everything is possible. What seems certain is that Sony can't make enough 100MP sensors at the moment to make everyone happy
Edmund
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I also wouldn’t bet on a “crop camera” camera from phase. First, I don’t think they have the Ressourcen to pull it off, second it would be super strange to tell everyone, your done with 44/33 and than announce something in that ballpark.
I expect something else from phase one at photokina, but don’t have a clue what it could be.
Regarding the Hasso/Fuji side: it sounds pretty clear from Ming quote that there won’t be a X2D this year. In addition, if one looks at all Fuji rumors there isn’t much more talk about the 100Mp version than an development announcement. (Here I wouldn’t be surprised if the announcement got cancelled if Fuji feels no real pressure to say anything)
We will all see pretty soo.
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I also wouldn’t bet on a “crop camera” camera from phase. First, I don’t think they have the Ressourcen to pull it off, second it would be super strange to tell everyone, your done with 44/33 and than announce something in that ballpark.
I expect something else from phase one at photokina, but don’t have a clue what it could be.
Regarding the Hasso/Fuji side: it sounds pretty clear from Ming quote that there won’t be a X2D this year. In addition, if one looks at all Fuji rumors there isn’t much more talk about the 100Mp version than an development announcement. (Here I wouldn’t be surprised if the announcement got cancelled if Fuji feels no real pressure to say anything)
We will all see pretty soo.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The thing no one understands is why Fuji and Hassy would allow their current cash cow 50MP product line to be killed by a future 100MP announcement, if they cannot *make* the 100MP version.
My only explanation here of the how not the why is that they all got sandbagged by Sony pipelining a 100Mp chip they can't get. Fuji decided to chew the bullet an sell 50MP "rangefinders" for a while. Hassy's response may be a price slide.
Edmund
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They will have no choice but going fairly soon to 100mp because it is pretty obvious that we will have by summer/fall 2019 the a9r/Z9/R? that are likely to feature sensors in the 60~70mp range and damn fine lenses... that will make new purchases of 50mp small MF pretty much irrelevant.
Cheers,
Bernard
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50MPs would not be irrelevant if I already owned one! I suspect you are right in that there will continue to be a drive to more MPs. I just think manufactures are pursuing smaller and smaller markets segments when they would be better off enhancing the capability of their current offerings.
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They will have no choice but going fairly soon to 100mp because it is pretty obvious that we will have by summer/fall 2019 the a9r/Z9/R? that are likely to feature sensors in the 60~70mp range and damn fine lenses... that will make new purchases of 50mp small MF pretty much irrelevant.
Cheers,
Bernard
Bernard, Sony will keep supplying all its customers with the rope they need to throttle themselves witout quite dying:)
So count on a reasonably priced aka semi-extortionate 100MP chip supply appearing just before the 60MP 35mm chips hit the market.
Edmund
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Bernard, Sony will keep supplying all its customers with the rope they need to throttle themselves witout quite dying:)
So count on a reasonably priced aka semi-extortionate 100MP chip supply appearing just before the 60MP 35mm chips hit the market.
They will certainly try but Sony doesn’t control Canon nor Nikon anymore.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Ok, here's a random theory I'm going to throw in here for fun:
It's being confirmed that the GFX-100 is not arriving till Q2 next year. i.e. Spring, which has disappointed many people who were hoping for it this fall/ winter. I happen to know that Phase have invited all their international dealers to Germany for a meeting over the next few days. i.e. now - right before Photokina. It can't be for the IQ4, as that is out there, announced and deposits taken. So... clearly something else is afoot - are Phase about to announce a surprise, like a completely new compact camera taking on Fuji and Hasselblad? Here's the conspiracy bit... Phase are probably Sony's biggest customer ($ terms) by a long way, might they have got 3-6 month exclusive rights for the new 100mp BSI sensor and are going to release their own mirrorless body with it?!
Pure conjecture on my part, but... you never know!
ooohhhh...this is juicy, well observed and interpreted too - well done. If they drop a 100MP mirrorless I will likely buy on pre order.
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My money is on Narikin's observation and my Fuji GFX or Hasselblad X1D plans are very temporarily on hold. If there's no announcement at Photokina I will jump in on one of them.
Phase One would probably have the ability to get an exclusive on the 100BSI and that would really mess up Fuji and HBlad's plans. Touche. Well, we know for a fact that they already have it for the aerial camera.
Phase One really may be about to go nuclear with a Mirrorless offering and I'm here for it - Sign me up! (even though I'm still very angry about dropping Hasselblad H support! >:( >:( >:( )
Although it probably means a lot more spam from Doug. ;D
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They will certainly try but Sony doesn’t control Canon nor Nikon anymore.
Cheers,
Bernard
Actually they do: Sony fullframe and Nikon fullframe 35 are the same sensors mostly, produced by Sony, and so whenever Sony and Canon make a new fullframe 35 Sony can use the same tech at a lower yield to run off a larger but profitable chip.
Edmund
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If Phase do go mirrorless I wonder if they'll also go competitive (on price)?
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If Phase do go mirrorless I wonder if they'll also go competitive (on price)?
Who will make the lenses for such camera? In contrast to phase fuji might have more margin on their system because it has the ability to design and produce their one lenses plus their own large camera factories.
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Who will make the lenses for such camera? In contrast to phase fuji might have more margin on their system because it has the ability to design and produce their one lenses plus their own large camera factories.
Subcontractors make things, real people make money.
Chloe Kardashian is 20 or so, worth $900 000 000, and she never made a lipstick herself in her life.
It's a new set of rules out there.
Edmund
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Who will make the lenses for such camera? In contrast to phase fuji might have more margin on their system because it has the ability to design and produce their one lenses plus their own large camera factories.
Although branded Schneider, don’t Phase still produce their own lenses in Japan at the old Mamiya factory?
I’m thinking that when and if Phase do go mirrorless, they do it with a “full frame” 645 chip to differentiate themselves over Fuji and Hasselblad, and will still command the price premium. Earlier this year I received a questionnaire from Phase basically testing the mirrorless waters with their customer base to see how much they would spend on one... I’m certain they are in some form of development right now for a mirrorless system and I’m not sure why people don’t think they have the resources to do it if Hasselblad could pull it off.... It has been ages since the XF came out and the last feature release for it. There is no way those designers and R&D people are sitting idle.
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They will have no choice but going fairly soon to 100mp because it is pretty obvious that we will have by summer/fall 2019 the a9r/Z9/R? that are likely to feature sensors in the 60~70mp range and damn fine lenses... that will make new purchases of 50mp small MF pretty much irrelevant.
Cheers,
Bernard
Hi Bernard,
What makes you think so?
Best regards
Erik
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I guess Phase One already has a camera based on the 100MP BSI chip, except it's an aerial camera, sold for a lot of money in small numbers:
https://www.fujirumors.com/phase-one-medium-format-camera-with-100-mp-backside-illuminated-44x33mm-of-fujifilm-gfx-100s-coming-june-2018/
By the time the 100MP hits the mainstream - 2019 second quarter is my guess - the chip will be old tech, and as Bernard states correctly it will have trouble competing against the autumn 2019 crop of 35mm dSLRs, which will have computational photography features that rely on new chip abilities.
Anyone with an iPhone XS or a Google Pixel can see how effective computational photography is in practice. My iPhone will even measure things for me, which is something many pros eg. in real estate or cultural applications, will find a killer feature. .
Basically, Fuji is going to preannounce, in order to get people to stay with their lenses and buy into their system.
Edmund
PS. Interestingly, Phase can probably use very cheap "engineering grade" sample chips for aerial imaging, because one can always take a few images in quick succession, and chip defects won't impact the same subject regions. In "photography" applications one often only gets the luxury of a single shutter click. This is why Phase's using this chip ahead of everyone else means very little about the actual availability for broader applications.
Edmund
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Who will make the lenses for such camera? In contrast to phase fuji might have more margin on their system because it has the ability to design and produce their one lenses plus their own large camera factories.
It would likely be Schneider.
But there is also another very iconic German lens manufacturer starting with Z that don't have any affiliation with a Medium Format company at present...
Then there's the peeps you never thought of - No one had really heard of Nittoh before the X1D.
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Stranger things have happened, but I will surprised if P1 brings a 100MP cropped sensor to market, after all of their focus on "full frame". But anything is possible these days.
Paul C
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Although branded Schneider, don’t Phase still produce their own lenses in Japan at the old Mamiya factory?
Phase One's Schneider LS Blue Ring lenses are designed as a collaboration between Phase One and Schneider lens designers. They are produced in the Phase One Japan factory (formerly Mamiya). They are QC'd by both Phase One and Schneider.
I’m not sure why people don’t think they have the resources to do it if Hasselblad could pull it off.... It has been ages since the XF came out and the last feature release for it. There is no way those designers and R&D people are sitting idle.
"Ages" eh?
Significant releases for the XF body
- XF: June 2015
- XF FU1: October 2015
- XF FU2: March 2016
- XF FU3: October 2016
- XF V Grip: January 2017
- XF FU4: September 2017
- XF HAP-2: September 2017
Also released during that same time period:
- Schneider 35LS Blue Ring (new design)
- Schneider 45LS Blue Ring (new design)
- Schneider 150LS f/2.8 Blue Ring (new design)
- Blue Ring versions of the 55, 80, 110, 75-150, 120, 150/3.5 and 240 lenses (new physical chassis and electronics, same design)
- IQ3 80mp (new sensor)
- IQ3 100mp (new sensor)
- IQ3 100mp Trichromatic (new sensor filter)
- IQ3 100mp Achromatic (new sensor)
- IQ4 100mp Trichromatic (new platform)
- IQ4 150mp Achromatic (new sensor, new platform)
- IQ4 150mp (new sensor, new platform)
- Capture One 9, 9.1, 9.2 and 9.3
- Capture One 10, 10.1, 10.2, 10.3
- Capture One 11, 11.1, 11.2
I expect that when the IQ4 ships in a few weeks that the XF will receive a Feature Update.
Notably during this time (actually dating back to 2008) Phase One has been profitable and the R+D team has been growing.
I'm not saying whether or not Phase One R+D time/money is going into a mirrorless system. I honestly do not know. But it's very clear from the list above that if time/money is going into a mirrorless system it is in addition to significant ongoing investment in the XF. Compare and contrast this list to the releases of any other medium format player over this time period.
If Phase One enters the mirrorless market they will have plenty of resources to do it right. If Phase One chooses not to enter the mirrorless market it will not be because they lack the resources to do so.
I'd direct you to The Road to the IQ4 (https://luminous-landscape.com/the-road-to-the-phase-one-iq4/), published on this site.
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Edmund,
Sony already has the 150MP sensor in announced Phase One products, and the 100MP 44x33 uses the same pixel size and was announced with the same 2018 arrival as its big brother. On what basis do you predict it not coming till Fall 2019?
Though I can see the still young 44x33 mirrorless systems not going to 100MP bodies so quickly. Has Pentax got an opportunity?!
Also, since when is a higher pixel count needed to justify a more expensive larger format camera? What happened to the benefits of larger photo-sites and using higher f-stops with less aberrations to get a given DOF and so on? I address this to those who are (justifiably) enthusiastic about 24MP, 36x24mm format bodies!
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Though I can see the still young 44x33 mirrorless systems not going to 100MP bodies so quickly. Has Pentax got an opportunity?!
I'm confident in saying that Pentax isn't doing anything with their 645z line. I can't even tell if Pentax knows they make those cameras. Their sales team hasn't a clue, their dealers are getting restless.
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As a professional rumormonger, i kinda mix the chatter on the net. Which is fairly unanimous in stating none of the usual suspects is in the position of selling a 100mp in volume today, cheaply. An expensive 100 Mp H might be possible, as Phase have a 100Mp aerial based on the crop fhip.
Edmund
Edmund,
Sony already has the 150MP sensor in announced Phase One products, and the 100MP 44x33 uses the same pixel size and was announced with the same 2018 arrival as its big brother. On what basis do you predict it not coming till Fall 2019?
Though I can see the still young 44x33 mirrorless systems not going to 100MP bodies so quickly. Has Pentax got an opportunity?!
Also, since when is a higher pixel count needed to justify a more expensive larger format camera? What happened to the benefits of larger photo-sites and using higher f-stops with less aberrations to get a given DOF and so on? I address this to those who are (justifiably) enthusiastic about 24MP, 36x24mm format bodies!
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Phase One's Schneider LS Blue Ring lenses are designed as a collaboration between Phase One and Schneider lens designers. They are produced in the Phase One Japan factory (formerly Mamiya). They are QC'd by both Phase One and Schneider.
Thanks for confirming this. Pretty much what I thought!
"Ages" eh?
Significant releases for the XF body
- XF: June 2015
- XF FU1: October 2015
- XF FU2: March 2016
- XF FU3: October 2016
- XF V Grip: January 2017
- XF FU4: September 2017
- XF HAP-2: September 2017
Also released during that same time frame:
**snip**
Thanks for your thoughts, but I stand by what I said (even if it was hyperbolic). One could argue that the digital back and Capture 1 Pro updates don’t “count” in this regard as they were doing those while designing the XF in the first place, although the IQ4 development was more significant than regular back/sensor updates (and very well could have eaten up the cycles I mention below).
When you look at the actual dates of the XF feature updates I think it’s clear that they have become less frequent since year 1 of the XF. Is the whole wan responsivle for designing the XF working on those feature updates? I doubt that. Those cycles have clearly gone elsewhere. Perhaps the IQ4 development, lenses, and aerial/industrial/repro models can account for all of them. Who knows?
I do think the community has been quick to discount Phase’s ability to develop a new platform should they wish to and that that pessimism is unfounded. I also don’t think that Phase is doomed if they don’t release a mirror less mode as some seem to think, although it would be incredibly wise if they do. They only stand to lose out.
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I do think the community has been quick to discount Phase’s ability to develop a new platform should they wish to and that that pessimism is unfounded. I also don’t think that Phase is doomed if they don’t release a mirror less mode as some seem to think, although it would be incredibly wise if they do. They only stand to lose out.
Of course Phase can release a mirrorless model in a week if they want to - it's just a box with a lensmount some control buttons and maybe an EVF, all the smarts get pushed into the back and the lens contains the leaf shutter.
However, the community is by now tired of staring at $50K cameras. These are out of most individual's pricerange, and do not fascinate as much as the high-end items that are affordable like the XD1.
Edmund
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Of course Phase can release a mirrorless model in a week if they want to - it's just a box with a lensmount some control buttons and maybe an EVF, all the smarts get pushed into the back and the lens contains the leaf shutter.
However, the community is by now tired of staring at $50K cameras. These are out of most individual's pricerange, and do not fascinate as much as the high-end items that are affordable like the XD1.
Edmund
As a "professional rumourmonger" I would have thought you'd read X1D enough times to notice the syntax is not XD1. :D ;D ;)
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As a "professional rumourmonger" I would have thought you'd read X1D enough times to notice the syntax is not XD1. :D ;D ;)
Thank you for the unpaid fact-checking, I will try to keep that in mind.
How do you think Hassy should name the successor?
Edmund
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Thank you for the unpaid fact-checking, I will try to keep that in mind.
How do you think Hassy should name the successor?
Edmund
:D It's a great thread by the way!
I'm not sure if it will be a X2D-50c, an X1D-50c mk2, an X1D-100c, or it could, possibly be something else and use a custom chip 50-70MP that we are unaware of.
The X1D-50c has sold out in many places, it's listed as discontinued at some, and is now sold out on the Hasselblad Online Shop. They aren't going to let such a successful product sit for 6 months with no inward revenue.
So I think a new model is imminent but given that Ming has been answering comments about an X2D-100c like "people need to ask if they need 100MP" then it's possible they have created a custom chip that is 50, 60, 70MP etc.
Also people seem to have forgotten that the V1D may become a reality. At the last Photokina it was spoken of as a real possibility in Hasselblad's future and that worked on the premise of a 100MP sensor cropped down to 70MP square. The prototype was actually quite elaborate.
in the comments of Ming's own site he has been alluding to a replacement for the CFV-50c and based on several comments it seems the V1D could be that replacement.
Maybe we will see a V1D-50c or a V1D-100c instead of an X1D or X2D. That would be a way for Hasselblad to differentiate from Fujifilm on form factor at this point in time and also capitalise on modularity (and catch up with Fuji on that side of things).
Either of these seems not too much of a stretch of the imagination based on what info we have.
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:D It's a great thread by the way!
I'm not sure if it will be a X2D-50c, an X1D-50c mk2, an X1D-100c, or it could, possibly be something else and use a custom chip 50-70MP that we are unaware of.
The X1D-50c has sold out in many places, it's listed as discontinued at some, and is now sold out on the Hasselblad Online Shop. They aren't going to let such a successful product sit for 6 months with no inward revenue.
So I think a new model is imminent but given that Ming has been answering comments about an X2D-100c like "people need to ask if they need 100MP" then it's possible they have created a custom chip that is 50, 60, 70MP etc.
Also people seem to have forgotten that the V1D may become a reality. At the last Photokina it was spoken of as a real possibility in Hasselblad's future and that worked on the premise of a 100MP sensor cropped down to 70MP square. The prototype was actually quite elaborate.
The CFC-50c was discontinued long ago but Ming had said it wasn't dead. But later added that it seemed the old V platform was still exceptionally popular, it might not be the best platform to work with in the future (paraphrasing). That does allude to a V1D sort of product too.
Maybe we will see a V1D-50c or a V1D-100c instead of an X1D or X2D. That would be a way for Hasselblad to differentiate from Fujifilm at this point in time and also capitalise on modularity.
Either of these seems not too much of a stretch of the imagination based on what info we have.
A V1D that works with the H lenses would be an interesting pivot, especially if the price can slowly be brought down to where arty students can use it.
The square is a really interesting format. When sketching I always need to decide whether to go landscape or portrait, and often find in the end that an Instagram square crop was better than either choice; in fact in the cases where I have deliberately sketched in a square I have found it works well. Of course, I did like my Hassy V, which I used as a travel camera, shooting Fujichrome 1600.
Scarcity of the X1D-50 and issues with chip supplies would imply that they may need to release an X1DII-50, with some ergonomic issues resolved. But they had better get the pricing right if Fuji is threatening a $10K 100MP camera :)
I guess we'll know in a few days. Information will probably "leak" before announcements anyway. Fuji seems to be using leaks for viral marketing :)
Edmund
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A V1D that works with the H lenses would be an interesting pivot, especially if the price can slowly be brought down to where arty students can use it.
Scarcity of the X1D-50 and issues with chip supplies would imply that they may need to release an X1DII-50, with some ergonomic issues resolved. But they had better get the pricing right if Fuji is threatening a $10K 100MP camera :)
I guess we'll know in a few days. Information will probably "leak" before announcements anyway. Fuji seems to be using leaks for viral marketing :)
Edmund
It's hard to know where Hasselblad is in the pecking order with the 100MP sensor, so they may indeed choose to focus on the existing model until they get the new sensors to the point where they can ship properly.
It really could be possible that Phase One has a short term exclusive on it for an upcoming model.
It feels like Fuji at this stage are in full control, they are well prepared and milking the PR for every drop with the incoming GFX R and also the development announcement of the GFX-100. I'm looking at them as a possibility and a safe bet and that will be a decision I will likely work with for at least the next decade. I would prefer the Hasselblad and I hope they don't keep their cards too close to their chest - this is a critical time to set the tone for the future and I will be personally making a decision on Phase One, Hasselblad or Fuji (in order of preference at this stage) in the very near future.
I would absolutely without a doubt prefer a Phase One mirrorless though and the thought of that is exciting. But while I like the idea of it the most, the reality of it is of course questionable.
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Hi,
Designing a sensor is a three year process. I don't think many companies would do that for a small market, like MFD. In CCD times there was Kodak and DALSA, now we have Sony as chip vendor. I don't think they will develop smaller density sensors. Making a 70 MP and a 100 MP sensor for a small market just doubles the effort.
It is quite true that Leica has a sensor made for them, but my guess is that Hasselblad would not go that route.
Best regards
Erik
:D It's a great thread by the way!
I'm not sure if it will be a X2D-50c, an X1D-50c mk2, an X1D-100c, or it could, possibly be something else and use a custom chip 50-70MP that we are unaware of.
The X1D-50c has sold out in many places, it's listed as discontinued at some, and is now sold out on the Hasselblad Online Shop. They aren't going to let such a successful product sit for 6 months with no inward revenue.
So I think a new model is imminent but given that Ming has been answering comments about an X2D-100c like "people need to ask if they need 100MP" then it's possible they have created a custom chip that is 50, 60, 70MP etc.
Also people seem to have forgotten that the V1D may become a reality. At the last Photokina it was spoken of as a real possibility in Hasselblad's future and that worked on the premise of a 100MP sensor cropped down to 70MP square. The prototype was actually quite elaborate.
in the comments of Ming's own site he has been alluding to a replacement for the CFV-50c and based on several comments it seems the V1D could be that replacement.
Maybe we will see a V1D-50c or a V1D-100c instead of an X1D or X2D. That would be a way for Hasselblad to differentiate from Fujifilm on form factor at this point in time and also capitalise on modularity (and catch up with Fuji on that side of things).
Either of these seems not too much of a stretch of the imagination based on what info we have.
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Everyone keeps saying MFD is a small market. It WAS a small market. $40K cameras are and will remain a small market and will likely shrink even more.
But MF was once a very large pro market, it was a standard. Currents trends provide a new found affordability and an increasing affordability will expand the market greatly.
This new GFXR is about to take that to a whole new level.
Hasselblad following Leica on a custom sensor is possible but I agree the likelihood is lower that them using an off the shelf unit.
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Erik,
The way this works is companies already have sensors, they just make a larger version. It's a bit like making a larger or a smaller carpet.
It got much easier now since in CCD designs you needed to transfer analog signals through a big part of the chip to readout, implying very careful design, and now you have on-chip column converters and shorter signal paths.
The issues with stitching the big dimensions etc remain, but AFAIK you can still extend upwards from an existing design.
So we will see more companies slowly come into the big chip market. It is rumored that Samsung are supplying the new Panasonic fullframe chip, which would imply that they could probably make an MF chip if they wanted to.
I think the site everyone reads is http://image-sensors-world.blogspot.com
Edmund
Hi,
Designing a sensor is a three year process. I don't think many companies would do that for a small market, like MFD. In CCD times there was Kodak and DALSA, now we have Sony as chip vendor. I don't think they will develop smaller density sensors. Making a 70 MP and a 100 MP sensor for a small market just doubles the effort.
It is quite true that Leica has a sensor made for them, but my guess is that Hasselblad would not go that route.
Best regards
Erik
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Hasselblad wanted a 6x6 sensor but Sony wouldn't make it for them. It just depends on how much they want 6x6 to be their thing that depends wether or not they want to go custom rather than off the shelf. They could have been developing this longer than 3 years.
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Hasselblad wanted a 6x6 sensor but Sony wouldn't make it for them. It just depends on how much they want 6x6 to be their thing that depends wether or not they want to go custom rather than off the shelf. They could have been developing this longer than 3 years.
The uncropped square is not much use for magazines, but it is a nice format for maybe 15 or 20% of portrait, art and architecture images, and for some people it could become a style. I think it plays well on walls.
Going 54x54 would give Hassy a look very far from cellphones, and allow the arty crowd to make a statement, it might be a smart move if they already have the lenses in the H-system and old V system and just need to create a body. Also, Alpa has lenses which would go well with a lager sensor.
Edmund
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I would love 6x6 digital. I would think it would obviously have an autocrop/viewfinder mask function too though of course.
I shoot magazines and they run square images all the time. traditionally, 6x6 has been favoured for it's cropping flexibility. Magazines run what the photographer shoots and they book the photographer for what ever it is they do.
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I would love 6x6 digital. I would think it would obviously have an autocrop/viewfinder mask function too though of course.
I shoot magazines and they run square images all the time. traditionally, 6x6 has been favoured for it's cropping flexibility. Magazines run what the photographer shoots and they book the photographer for what ever it is they do.
Maybe you oughta tell Hassy that. I think killing the square V concept rather than milking it was the marketing decision that moved them from being the lead player in MF to being an afterthought.
Once they went to a rectangle they were just a bigger kludgy 35mm camera, down in the mud wrestling with Mamiya and the speedy cheap Nikons and Canons!
Edmund
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The persistent dream of a return to square format cameras (which the camera industry was solidly moving away from already in the film era) fascinates me. Let me try to comment on a few of the incorrect outright nonsensical claims:
- There are several sensor maker who could do a custom 56x56mm CMOS sensor for Hasselblad: for example, Teledyne-Dalsa and Canon both offer custom CMOS sensor sizes up to "wafer scale". The barrier is cost relative to expected market interest, not an imagined uncooperative Sony monopoly.
- The claim that a square Hasselblad would offer a distinction from phone-camera is ironical coming from the person who argued for a strong modern interest in square by citing its use on Instagram! The kids are OK with cropping.
- The idea that Hasselblad's current weakness is due to not staying with the square is strange considering that (a) Hasselblad's traditional main rival Rollei stayed with the square, and faired far worse, whereas (b) the rival that is outperforming "H" is the evolution of Mamiya's 645 system.
- A collection of old manual focus "V" lens designs would be a very poor basis for a new system, and "H" lenses can not be trusted to cover true "6x6" (56x56mm), especially when the higher resolution demands of todays DMF meet the likely poor corner performance outside the image circle for which those "645" lenses are designed. Or is the proposal a "crop square MF"? About 50x50mm would fit the 70mm diagonal of 645.
- AFAIK, Hasselblad's "square mirrorless" mock-up was likely nothing more than a 3D-printed illustration (or a clay or balsa-wood carving, if the design shop went old-school.) Is there any evidence that, as Bo_Dez says, "The prototype was actually quite elaborate."?
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I'm confident in saying that Pentax isn't doing anything with their 645z line.
Sadly, I see no reason to disagree. Or to expect any long term future for Pentax ILCs in any format.
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As a professional rumormonger, i kinda mix the chatter on the net.
As an semi-professional skeptic (professional scientist), you can probably guess how much credence I give to "the chatter on the net" when not at least filtered by sources with a decent track record (which some rumor sites do have.) "Chatter on the 'net" is at best an insight into a community's hope and fears, at worst skewed by "influence campaigns", meaning covert propaganda.
If chatter on the 'net were trustworthy then (a) Canon and Nikon would have stayed with their SLR mounts for those new EVF camera systems, (b) 6x6 MF is on the verge of making a comeback (and has been on this verge for many years) (c) APS-C and MFT are on the verge of being obsoleted by 36x24mm format (and again, have been on this verge for many years).
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BJL,
- On Semi could certainly do such a sensor.
- My argument is that Hassy wilted faster because they didn't manage the transition away from the V. If they had supplied a useable product with similar ergonomics AT THE TIME to Hassy photographers, they might have better capitalised on their goodwill.
- You think the square camera is a joke, I think it might be standout. Who knows? The survival of the Leica M is hilarious.
Edmund
The persistent dream of a return to square format cameras (which the camera industry was solidly moving away from already in the film era) fascinates me. Let me try to comment on a few of the incorrect outright nonsensical claims:
- There are several sensor maker who could do a custom 56x56mm CMOS sensor for Hasselblad: for example, Teledyne-Dalsa and Canon both offer custom CMOS sensor sizes up to "wafer scale". The barrier is cost relative to expected market interest, not an imagined uncooperative Sony monopoly.
- The claim that a square Hasselblad would offer a distinction from phone-camera is ironical coming from the person who argued for a strong modern interest in square by citing its use on Instagram! The kids are OK with cropping.
- The idea that Hasselblad's current weakness is due to not staying with the square is strange considering that (a) Hasselblad's traditional main rival Rollei stayed with the square, and faired far worse, whereas (b) the rival that is outperforming "H" is the evolution of Mamiya's 645 system.
- A collection of old manual focus "V" lens designs would be a very poor basis for a new system, and "H" lenses can not be trusted to cover true "6x6" (56x56mm), especially when the higher resolution demands of todays DMF meet the likely poor corner performance outside the image circle for which those "645" lenses are designed. Or is the proposal a "crop square MF"? About 50x50mm would fit the 70mm diagonal of 645.
- AFAIK, Hasselblad's "square mirrorless" mock-up was likely nothing more than a 3D-printed illustration (or a clay or balsa-wood carving, if the design shop went old-school.) Is there any evidence that, as Bo_Dez says, "The prototype was actually quite elaborate."?
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As an semi-professional skeptic (professional scientist), you can probably guess how much credence I give to "the chatter on the net" when not at least filtered by sources with a decent track record (which some rumor sites do have.) "Chatter on the 'net" is at best an insight into a community's hope and fears, at worst skewed by "influence campaigns", meaning covert propaganda.
If chatter on the 'net were trustworthy then (a) Canon and Nikon would have stayed with their SLR mounts for those new EVF camera systems, (b) 6x6 MF is on the verge of making a comeback (and has been on this verge for many years) (c) APS-C and MFT are on the verge of being obsoleted by 36x24mm format (and again, have been on this verge for many years).
BJL I used to get paid pretty well month after month to write a tech rumor column ;I'm not going to teach you how to make a photograph, and you're not going to teach me how to evaluate *rumors* and eventualities. You disagree with *my* predictions? Well they're up there in post number 1 so you can make fun of me. Go ahead. Any prediction is hostage to last minute events, just look at the Kavanaugh nomination. I know a lot of professional pollsters and newspapers who put their money on the UK staying in the EU, and on Mrs Clinton winning the last election - but I haven't heard you point out that these people were useless.
Edmund
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Hi,
I don't think it will happen. My guess is that MFD market is around 1% of the large sensor market and I would guess that square format is a small part of that. Cropping 44x33 mm to 33x33 mm yields a square format and so does cropping 54x41 m to 41x41 mm yield a square format.
To put it simply, it makes zero sense. You can crop existing sensors to square. But, developing a square sensor for perhaps 0.1% of the market may not make any sense.
But, if the market grows by a factor of ten, it may make sense.
Best regards
Erik
The uncropped square is not much use for magazines, but it is a nice format for maybe 15 or 20% of portrait, art and architecture images, and for some people it could become a style. I think it plays well on walls.
Going 54x54 would give Hassy a look very far from cellphones, and allow the arty crowd to make a statement, it might be a smart move if they already have the lenses in the H-system and old V system and just need to create a body. Also, Alpa has lenses which would go well with a lager sensor.
Edmund
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Edmund – since you’re so good at prognostication perhaps you should start a new MFD thread focusing on where we will be in 5 years. Obviously, we are rapidly reaching the point of diminishing returns regarding MPs so what’s next :)
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Hi,
I don't think it will happen. My guess is that MFD market is around 1% of the large sensor market and I would guess that square format is a small part of that. Cropping 44x33 mm to 33x33 mm yields a square format and so does cropping 54x41 m to 41x41 mm yield a square format.
To put it simply, it makes zero sense. You can crop existing sensors to square. But, developing a square sensor for perhaps 0.1% of the market may not make any sense.
But, if the market grows by a factor of ten, it may make sense.
Best regards
Erik
Erik,
I agree with you, it won't happen.
However you do get largeish square sensors as side products from large sensors rectangular with defects. If a big defect is on the side but the sensor is functional you can still package it in a large box and optically crop to use the center square.
Edmund
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Edmund – since you’re so good at prognostication perhaps you should start a new MFD thread focusing on where we will be in 5 years. Obviously, we are rapidly reaching the point of diminishing returns regarding MPs so what’s next :)
If I were any good at that then I'd be getting hired by the camera companies :)
Truth is, the camera phone crowd is now upsetting the apple cart and nobody knows what's coming next.
The amount of money which Apple and Google are investing in the photography side of their product is gynormous. Yes, looking that word up is NSFW. :)
Some of the stuff we're talking about in this thread, ie GFX-50R, the bodies are already made in batches just waiting for their sensors, the boxes are already printed. It's a bit like the Kavanaugh nomination - barring last minute drama this gets announced and sold. If there were an earthquake in Japan tomorrow -let's hope not- and the Sony plants are affected, then the announcement might be delayed or even the product kllled.
Edmund
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Maybe you oughta tell Hassy that. I think killing the square V concept rather than milking it was the marketing decision that moved them from being the lead player in MF to being an afterthought.
Once they went to a rectangle they were just a bigger kludgy 35mm camera, down in the mud wrestling with Mamiya and the speedy cheap Nikons and Canons!
Edmund
I'm with you, on that, 100%. I told that to Hasselblad already it was the same loud cry from a lot of people. The H actually was and is a very good camera but it took many years for me to get over the V. I still have my V cameras and I consider them one of the best designed cameras of all time. It's a great shame to have lost them.
6x6 digital isn't really possible now, it certainly wasn't possible all those years ago. I actually found the V to work exceptionally well with Phase One backs because you could mount the back rotated. It was great. By 60MP, though, it was getting hard to focus, the tolerances just aren't there and it needed an entire overhaul and redesign with new componentry and interface. It's a shame and I really wish that Hasselblad focussed their attention on the original platform and not the H.
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I'm with you, on that, 100%. I told that to Hasselblad already it was the same loud cry from a lot of people. The H actually was and is a very good camera but it took many years for me to get over the V. I still have my V cameras and I consider them one of the best designed cameras of all time. It's a great shame to have lost them.
6x6 digital isn't really possible now, it certainly wasn't possible all those years ago. I actually found the V to work exceptionally well with Phase One backs because you could mount the back rotated. It was great. By 60MP, though, it was getting hard to focus, the tolerances just aren't there and it needed an entire overhaul and redesign with new componentry and interface. It's a shame and I really wish that Hasselblad focussed their attention on the original platform and not the H.
Yes. Clearly the V wasn't a digital design, but the users had a system for using it.
It can be argued that a slow transition would have allowed the company to retain the customer base.
Edmund
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Yes. Clearly the V wasn't a digital design, but the users had a system for using it.
It can be argued that a slow transition would have allowed the company to retain the customer base.
Edmund
Unfortunately Hasselblad had a few too many years being run by monkeys.
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Unfortunately Hasselblad had a few too many years being run by monkeys.
Actually I think it was the opposite issue, Christian Poulsen is a smart guy, and he was a founder of Imacon, and he was all-modern and saw the weakness of the V and didn't realize the importance of the DNA of a legacy brand. He did get the tech right and he was a photographer so the H track record as a camera ended up pretty good.
Edmund
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If anyone thinks that the GFX100/XD2 are going to be thee same price as the GFX50/X1D, I think they are going to be in for a rude surprise.
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... I know a lot of professional pollsters and newspapers who put their money on the UK staying in the EU, and on Mrs Clinton winning the last election - but I haven't heard you point out that these people were useless.
I am not saying that pollsters are reliable; on the contrary, I am saying that your "a lot of people on the internet are saying"-style sourcing is _not_ reliable! (To the extent that I see a 2018 release as still likely, it is based on what Sony itself has said, not pollsters and pundits.) So I do not understand how adding a few more wrong predictions to my list adds credibility to your prediction that the 100MP 44x33mm sensor is not coming to DMF cameras until late 2019.
But at least I sense that this corner of the 'net is moving to acceptance that we will not see any future DMF cameras using sensors larger than "645", so I should quit while I am ahead.
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I am not saying that pollsters are reliable; on the contrary, I am saying that your "a lot of people on the internet are saying"-style sourcing is _not_ reliable! (To the extent that I see a 2018 release as still likely, it is based on what Sony itself has said, not pollsters and pundits.) So I do not understand how adding more a few wrong predictions to my list adds credibility to your prediction that the 100MP 44x33mm sensor is not coming to DMF cameras until late 2019.
But at least I sense that this corner of the 'net is moving to acceptance that we will not see any future DMF cameras using sensors larger than "645", so I should quit while I am ahead.
Does the acceptance of this corner of the net - without any real information - imply your opinion reflects the reality? By your own argument, no :)
The interesting thing is we're having a friendly discussion while often these threads erupt into a mess. That may be because all the cards will get turned over anyway in a couple of days.
Edmund
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If anyone thinks that the GFX100/XD2 are going to be thee same price as the GFX50/X1D, I think they are going to be in for a rude surprise.
Yes, there is this small issue of pricing. With the fairly certain datum that GFX-50R < $5K.
If you are right then pros will flock to the 50R as they often care less about MP than the luxury buyers.
Edmund
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If you are right then pros will flock to the 50R as they often care less about MP than the luxury buyers.
I don't know the ratio of pros to luxury buyers for the 100MP and 150MP Phase One products, so I can't evaluate your assertion. Non-professional Phase One buyers do not strike me as the same as Leica buyers. They seem more interested in photography rather than owning a certain camera brand.
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I don't know the ratio of pros to luxury buyers for the 100MP and 150MP Phase One products, so I can't evaluate your assertion. Non-professional Phase One buyers do not strike me as the same as Leica buyers. They seem more interested in photography rather than owning a certain camera brand.
Phase has no horse in this race.
We are discussing the Hassy and Fuji systems here. Hassy XD is now a prestige brand. Fuji GFX is more of a consumer enthusiast thing. Both are used by pros, but the pricing actually reflects the more populated market segment each system is addressing.
I would assume that
- if Fuji hikes prices their target customers (photo enthusiasts) will go and buy dSLRs and continue their photo hobby.
- if Hassy hikes prices their target clients (Ferrari owners) won't care - the camera is a rounding error in their annual income.
Pros will of course do a cost benefit analysis. I suspect those who shoot international campaigns won't even look at the price tag of either system, and just buy more of what they already have, because at their billing costs they don't have the time to learn another menu system. And those who shoot a meeting or some catalog work will get the GFX-50R and go home with a smile.
Edmund
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I don't know the ratio of pros to luxury buyers for the 100MP and 150MP Phase One products, so I can't evaluate your assertion. Non-professional Phase One buyers do not strike me as the same as Leica buyers. They seem more interested in photography rather than owning a certain camera brand.
I would agree with your assumption. As an “amateur” my concern is using the best capture technology available. I realize I’m not on the sweet spot of the value curve. For me, Phase One is certainly about capture quality but it’s also about customer support, user interface and camera functions and the ability to use C1. Decisions aren’t always about acquisition cost.
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I would agree with your assumption. As an “amateur” my concern is using the best capture technology available. I realize I’m not on the sweet spot of the value curve. For me, Phase One is certainly about capture quality but it’s also about customer support, user interface and camera functions and the ability to use C1. Decisions aren’t always about acquisition cost.
Indeed, as the ability to use C1 is central to your purpose, only a Phase One product qualifies as true Medium Format in your case.
You are lucky to have such a simple decision: No money issues and a requirement that reduces the field to one vendor.
Edmund
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Phase has no horse in this race.
We are discussing the Hassy and Fuji systems here. Hassy XD is now a prestige brand. Fuji GFX is more of a consumer enthusiast thing. Both are used by pros, but the pricing actually reflects the more populated market segment each system is addressing.
I would assume that
- if Fuji hikes prices their target customers (photo enthusiasts) will go and buy dSLRs and continue their photo hobby.
- if Hassy hikes prices their target clients (Ferrari owners) won't care - the camera is a rounding error in their annual income.
If we are going to limit discussion to Fuji and Hasselblad, I would take issue with the characterization of Hasselblad having as its target market Ferrari owners, although I will grant you that the two or three Ferrari owners who are also in the market for a medium format digital camera are more likely to buy Hasselblad than Fuji. But Ferrari owners are just going to be buying one lens, making the Hasselblad's development of a full line of lenses superfluous. Given the ongoing discounts on the X1D, the price differential between it and the GFX50 is not great enough to deter photo enthusiasts - or pros for that matter. Speaking of pros, their decision probably turns on how much studio work they do, with the X1D's leaf shutter likely being the deciding factor.
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If we are going to limit discussion to Fuji and Hasselblad, I would take issue with the characterization of Hasselblad having as its target market Ferrari owners, although I will grant you that the two or three Ferrari owners who are also in the market for a medium format digital camera are more likely to buy Hasselblad than Fuji. But Ferrari owners are just going to be buying one lens, making the Hasselblad's development of a full line of lenses superfluous. Given the ongoing discounts on the X1D, the price differential between it and the GFX50 is not great enough to deter photo enthusiasts - or pros for that matter. Speaking of pros, their decision probably turns on how much studio work they do, with the X1D's leaf shutter likely being the deciding factor.
Here in Europe, I have the feeling the Hassy is becoming a fashion accessory for the rich set. Which is no surprise as under previous management Hasselblad explored luxury marketing very carefully.
Edmund
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If we are going to limit discussion to Fuji and Hasselblad, I would take issue with the characterization of Hasselblad having as its target market Ferrari owners, although I will grant you that the two or three Ferrari owners who are also in the market for a medium format digital camera are more likely to buy Hasselblad than Fuji.
I would think Ferrari owners are more likely to buy a Leica ;)
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If we are going to limit discussion to Fuji and Hasselblad, I would take issue with the characterization of Hasselblad having as its target market Ferrari owners, although I will grant you that the two or three Ferrari owners who are also in the market for a medium format digital camera are more likely to buy Hasselblad than Fuji.
I would think Ferrari owners are more likely to buy a Leica ;)
They're performance oriented.
That's why they sponsor Ballet ;)
Edmund
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I don't know the ratio of pros to luxury buyers for the 100MP and 150MP Phase One products, so I can't evaluate your assertion. Non-professional Phase One buyers do not strike me as the same as Leica buyers. They seem more interested in photography rather than owning a certain camera brand.
I believe that the market segmentation is a bit more complex than luxury or pro.
I don’t feel like I belong to either category.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I believe that the market segmentation is a bit more complex than luxury or pro.
I don’t feel like I belong to either category.
Cheers,
Bernard
You know you are unique Bernard.
I will confirm it.
Edmund
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You know you are unique Bernard.
I will confirm it.
Edmund,
Coming from you it means a lot! :)
How did you define yourself when you owned a P1 back?
Cheers,
Bernard
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Edmund,
Coming from you it means a lot! :)
How did you define yourself when you owned a P1 back?
Cheers,
Bernard
An idiot?
Edmund
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Hi,
56x56 mm is certainly not very plausible, at least right now, but focusing can be helped a lot using magnified live view on a CMOS back. Hasselblad made a 44x33 mm CMOS back at an almost affordable price.
The closest thing to 56x56 mm is 54x41 mm backs. But, I don't think Phase One makes any of those for the Hasselblad V.
There are som decent solutions for focusing using the viewfinder:
- Split image view screens help with accurate focusing, if the subject has some nice clean and smooth edge.
- We can use a magnifier.
The image below shows my Zeiss Victory 3X monocular. That 9X magnification with the PM5 viewfinder.
(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/MFDJourney/Focusing/20130717-_DSC2305SONYSLT-A99V.jpg)
The image below shows what the viewfinder could resolve. PM5 is red, and the PM5 combined with the Zeiss monocular is yellow. The blue box was a special Hartblei focusing hood with 4X magnification.
I also made a replacement ocular that was made for my vision, but that didn't work well with the Zeiss monocular.
Best regards
Erik
(http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/MFDJourney/Focusing/USAF.jpg)
I'm with you, on that, 100%. I told that to Hasselblad already it was the same loud cry from a lot of people. The H actually was and is a very good camera but it took many years for me to get over the V. I still have my V cameras and I consider them one of the best designed cameras of all time. It's a great shame to have lost them.
6x6 digital isn't really possible now, it certainly wasn't possible all those years ago. I actually found the V to work exceptionally well with Phase One backs because you could mount the back rotated. It was great. By 60MP, though, it was getting hard to focus, the tolerances just aren't there and it needed an entire overhaul and redesign with new componentry and interface. It's a shame and I really wish that Hasselblad focussed their attention on the original platform and not the H.
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The closest thing to 56x56 mm is 54x41 mm backs. But, I don't think Phase One makes any of those for the Hasselblad V.
P65+
IQ1 60mp
IQ1 80mp
IQ2 60mp
IQ2 80mp
IQ3 80mp
All of these are rectangular full-frame-645 but can be rotated to either horizontal or vertical orientation.
V lenses can also be used via adapter on the XF with any P1 back or on a variety of tech cameras.
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Please please PLEASE, stop with the digital 6x6cm requests.
The same people have been harping on about this literally for years. Enough!
It's. Not. Going. To. Happen.
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Please please PLEASE, stop with the digital 6x6cm requests.
The same people have been harping on about this literally for years. Enough!
It's. Not. Going. To. Happen.
People ask for things that are never going to happen all the time. Let them have their hopes.
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People ask for things that are never going to happen all the time. Let them have their hopes.
About 12 years ago I took part in a meeting of dealers/users with an unnamed manufacturer and one of the topics was sensor size/shape. Square or rectangular? Square was outvoted by rectangular with a margin of 2-1, but the 33% square faction was by far more passionate about their shape!
Steve Hendrix/CI
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About 12 years ago I took part in a meeting of dealers/users with an unnamed manufacturer and one of the topics was sensor size/shape. Square or rectangular? Square was outvoted by rectangular with a margin of 2-1, but the 33% square faction was by far more passionate about their shape!
Steve Hendrix/CI
Well, P1 may need to have something else up their sleeve if they are going to continue to be able to charge a significant premium after the GFX100/H2D are released. I don't think 150MP or the slightly larger sensor will be enough.
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I expect the GFX100s to have the same crop modes as the 50s, including a 1:1 (square) mode.
For the GFX 100s that would make a 33x33mm sensor area with 75MP.
Might work for some square format lovers.
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Well, P1 may need to have something else up their sleeve if they are going to continue to be able to charge a significant premium after the GFX100/H2D are released. I don't think 150MP or the slightly larger sensor will be enough.
Just to be clear, I never said this meeting took place with Phase One. I've been involved with nearly every medium format digital manufacturer at one time or another.
Steve Hendrix/CI
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Just to be clear, I never said this meeting took place with Phase One. I've been involved with nearly every medium format digital manufacturer at one time or another.
Steve Hendrix/CI
Why aren't you in Germany for the Phase One dealer meeting/ mystery product release Steve?!
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Why aren't you in Germany for the Phase One dealer meeting/ mystery product release Steve?!
Ah well, I've already seen it. ;)
Dave and Bryant are over there negotiating.
I have a home closing that is calling my name this week.
Steve Hendrix/CI
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Hi Doug,
You are right, but the context was CMOS based backs. Also, is Phase One still making those backs in V-mount?
The reason I discussed CMOS is that it allows critical focus in live view. The person I was responding discussed that accurate focusing is problematic on V-series.
Best regards
Erik
P65+
IQ1 60mp
IQ1 80mp
IQ2 60mp
IQ2 80mp
IQ3 80mp
All of these are rectangular full-frame-645 but can be rotated to either horizontal or vertical orientation.
V lenses can also be used via adapter on the XF with any P1 back or on a variety of tech cameras.
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You are right, but the context was CMOS based backs. Also, is Phase One still making those backs in V-mount?
Those backs are available in V-mount as Phase One Certified Pre-Owned (aka Factory Refurbished) (https://www.dtcommercialphoto.com/product-category/refurbished-backs-bodies-lenses/pre-owned-phase-one-digital-backs/) with full warranty, all new accessories, and guaranteed excellent condition.
The reason I discussed CMOS is that it allows critical focus in live view. The person I was responding discussed that accurate focusing is problematic on V-series.
Ah. I missed that context. No full-frame 645 CMOS backs available for Hassy V-mount, from any manufacturer as far as I'm aware. The IQ2 50mp and IQ1 50mp and Credo 50 backs for V-mount are CMOS and can be rotated to vertical but are 44x33.
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About 12 years ago I took part in a meeting of dealers/users with an unnamed manufacturer and one of the topics was sensor size/shape. Square or rectangular? Square was outvoted by rectangular with a margin of 2-1, but the 33% square faction was by far more passionate about their shape!
Steve Hendrix/CI
I think this is a fair description.
I used to live in a student hostel, and every night they played rock music in the bar. A minority of about 33% wanted something else but they lost every vote all year long. That's democracy. And still, some record companies earn their living by selling non-rock music :)
Historically speaking the square Rolleiflex and Hasselblad had a good run for their money, and quite a few good images were taken with them.I don't understand why everybody now agrees that 16:9 makes sense but 1:1 doesn't.
Edmund
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I think this is a fair description.
I used to live in a student hostel, and every night they played rock music in the bar. A minority of about 33% wanted something else but they lost every vote all year long. That's democracy. And still, some record companies earn their living by selling non-rock music :)
Historically speaking the square Rolleiflex and Hasselblad had a good run for their money, and quite a few good images were taken with them.I don't understand why everybody now agrees that 16:9 makes sense but 1:1 doesn't.
M43 and MF are by default 4:3 (or in the case of P1s newer backs ~5:4), APS-C and FF are 3:2; however, most digital backs give you the choice of aspect ratios, so it is up to you how you wish to capture, and certainly up to you how you want to crop and print. I didn't know that most people now agree that 16:9 makes sense other than for video.
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Leica S3 has launched.
Edmund
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Leica S3 has launched.
Anything more than the sighting and blurb on the Chinese website?
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The press conferences will get going tomorrow morning, in about 8 hours, so then we'll know all!
Btw, Panasonic are interesting because they are high tech and aggressive, and may be using a 35mm FF sensor designed by Samsung, who might turn round and sell a medium format version just to point out to Sony that Korea is on the tech map too. Samsung can certainly design and manufacture sensors because they're probably the world's single leading semiconductor vendor in value, and because they do a lot of hi-tech mobile phones, which is where the action is nowadays when it comes to sensors.
I'm not sure what's going on with Fuji and Hassy; the silence is deafening, and if I didn't know better than to read emotions into nothing, I would think these two companies are unhappy about something and still deciding how to handle it.
Edmund
0.00 a.m. Sony Congress-Centre East, Europasaal English
11.30 a.m. Leica Camera AG Congress-Centre North, Konrad-Adenauer-Saal English
12.30 p.m. Panasonic Congress-Centre North, Konrad-Adenauer-Saal English
01.30 p.m. Fujifilm Congress-Centre North, Rheinsaal English
03.00 p.m. Canon Germany Congress-Centre East, Kristallsaal German
04.15 p.m. Nikon Hall 2.2, Stand English
05.30 p.m. Olympus Hall 1, Olympus Perspective Playground English
Anything more than the sighting and blurb on the Chinese website?
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I don't understand why everybody now agrees that 16:9 makes sense but 1:1 doesn't.
Much as faberryman said, I think that very few thing that 16:9 makes sense for a still camera sensor — such sensors are generally seen as making sense only on a video camera. Are there _any_ still of still-video hybrid cameras with native 16:9 sensors? (AFAIK, even phones with 16:9 or beyond 2:1 screens usually have 4:3 native sensors, cropping to 16:9 for video.)
What make sense overall is a shape roughly in the middle of the range where the user wants most images to end up, after possible cropping. If the camera cannot be rotated for verticals, that range is from horizontals to verticals, and then 1:1 is a plausible middle ground (which is probably why Kodak adopted that for its first "box cameras" back c. 1900.) If the camera (or sheet film holder, or film back, or digital back) can be readily rotated, then square is at one extreme end of the shape range, and makes little sense as the sensor shape unless that is the shape you want most or all of the time. I would think that a lot less than Steve's 33% want predominately squares today, even amongst current DMF users; perhaps Steve's audience was dominated by nostalgic old guard MF dealers and uses.
I have an idea though for Phase One and crop-averse photographers: "sweep square mode" — use the technology of sweep panorama mode (my favorite computational photography trick) to get square images from oblong sensors with either a vertical or horizontal sweep. They'll need to get that 5-axis IBIS first though.
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BJL,
The only technically prescribed shape is a round sensor to optimally exploit the lens projection, and also to uniformise heat distribution!
Mounted in a round case of course.
;D
Edmund
Much as faberryman said, I think that very few thing that 16:9 makes sense for a still camera sensor — such sensors are generally seen as making sense only on a video camera. Are there _any_ still of still-video hybrid cameras with native 16:9 sensors? (AFAIK, even phones with 16:9 or beyond 2:1 screens usually have 4:3 native sensors, cropping to 16:9 for video.)
What make sense overall is a shape roughly in the middle of the range where the user wants most images to end up, after possible cropping. If the camera cannot be rotated for verticals, that range is from horizontals to verticals, and then 1:1 is a plausible middle ground (which is probably why Kodak adopted that for its first "box cameras" back c. 1900.) If the camera (or sheet film holder, or film back, or digital back) can be readily rotated, then square is at one extreme end of the shape range, and makes little sense as the sensor shape unless that is the shape you want most or all of the time. I would think that a lot less than Steve's 33% want predominately squares today, even amongst current DMF users; perhaps Steve's audience was dominated by nostalgic old guard MF dealers and uses.
I have an idea though for Phase One and crop-averse photographers: "sweep square mode" — use the technology of sweep panorama mode (my favorite computational photography trick) to get square images from oblong sensors with either a vertical or horizontal sweep. They'll need to get that 5-axis IBIS first though.
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Leica S3, 64 megapixels camera in Spring 2019, officially announced: https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/25/17897480/leica-s3-medium-format-camera-photokina-2018
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Fuji gfx 50s is now supported by capture one, can't wait for Doug's post.
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Just wanted to ask the same thing. Heard itvwould be supported. For me best news ever.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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BJL,
The only technically prescribed shape is a round sensor to optimally exploit the lens projection, and also to uniformise heat distribution!
Mounted in a round case of course.
;D
Edmund
I knew the round sensor nonsense would come up sooner or later!
Apart from the practical issue of wiring, which AFAIK more less forces IC's to be rectangular, this "optimization of lens projection" has to be judged relative to the final desired image shape, and for that circles, squares and 16:9 will for most photographers require cropping away a larger proportion of the sensor area, increasing the sensor cost and camera bulk needed for a given final desired image size and shape (at the focal plane.)
Also matching sensor precisely to image circle is a bit of a myth: lenses for a given format vary substantially in image circle size; only wide to slightly longer than normal lenses are "tight" in that respect, and zooms only at the wide end.
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Fuji gfx 50s is now supported by capture one, can't wait for Doug's post.
Trade Off - Phase gets exclusivity for awhile with the new 100mp, sensor, Fuji gets C1 support for the future?
Random fun guess.
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Fuji GFX-50R is official here (https://www.dpreview.com/news/3322718566/fujifilm-introduces-rangefinder-style-gfx-50r-medium-format-camera)
$4500 i.e. $2000 cheaper than its big brother.
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The new GFX100S has IBIS and phase detect. With a smaller body that could be a killer. Of course if they could make it do pixel shift images the sky is the limit ;D
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Trade Off - Phase gets exclusivity for awhile with the new 100mp, sensor, Fuji gets C1 support for the future?
Random fun guess.
My random fun guess is that Fuji drove a dump truck full of $$$ up to the Phase office in Denmark. We’ll see if the Hasselblad mirrorless models get support. That should be telling.
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GF50mmF3.5 R LM WR compact prime lens announced. This is the 40mm 'equivalent' that everyone expected.
A bit disappointing its just f3.5, that's s-l-o-w.
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Why do they call it rangefinder though? It's still an EVF with video from the sensor, not the wonky off-center thing from film rangefinders days right?. I've also noticed there seems to be no joystick on the back of the 50R - how does one select AF points?
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GF50mmF3.5 R LM WR compact prime lens announced. This is the 40mm 'equivalent' that everyone expected.
A bit disappointing its just f3.5, that's s-l-o-w.
It's close to 2.8 on a 35mmm equiv, with a modern sensor is not that bad. People are salivating over the GR with 2.8 on APS-C.
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Why do they call it rangefinder though? It's still an EVF with video from the sensor, not the wonky off-center thing from film rangefinders days right?. I've also noticed there seems to be no joystick on the back of the 50R - how does one select AF points?
There IS a joystick to control AF points.
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Why do they call it rangefinder though? It's still an EVF with video from the sensor, not the wonky off-center thing from film rangefinders days right?. I've also noticed there seems to be no joystick on the back of the 50R - how does one select AF points?
With the power of mind. There is a joystick there.
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Fuji gfx 50s is now supported by capture one, can't wait for Doug's post.
https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=126881.0
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There IS a joystick to control AF points.
Ah right. Looked like a normal button to me at first sight.
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It's close to 2.8 on a 35mmm equiv, with a modern sensor is not that bad. People are salivating over the GR with 2.8 on APS-C.
? Light is Light...
f3.5 is f3.5. Period. You want to shoot in low light, you need a faster lens than this.
I use a 60 f4 as my walk around lens, on Phase One FF back, and it's barely fast enough. I'd love another stop, with the same/better resolution.
It's f3.5 is a likely factor of the 'compact' trade off. Tessar lens formulations can't be fast. (though I have not seen specs confirming it's a Tessar type)
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Fuji gfx 50s is now supported by capture one, can't wait for Doug's post.
I guess this mean we won't be seeing a Phase One/ Mamiya 7 type body announced?
They wouldn't have directly supported a competitor if it was coming.
Shame.
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Game over Hasselblad.
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Game over Hasselblad.
and is this why Phase support Fuji - to cripple Hasselblad?
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I don’t see it that bad for Hasselblad, I personally would never buy the X1D, but it’s still a good camera. There certainly will be a 100Mp Version by the end of next year. What I dislike is the lenses... no zooms, no tele lens and so on.
One aspect that might raise the new Fuji GFX 100 to its own area which Hasselblad might not be able to match is IBIS.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Here the new GFX-100 (https://www.fujirumors.com/fujifilm-unveils-gfx-100s-megapixels-concept-first-medium-format-camera-with-ibis/) prototype
Which has 100% frame coverage of Phase detection pixels. Amazing!
And... IBIS !!
(and built in vertical grip, and... and...)
This is going to be a great camera.
Game over for Phase One XF, I have to say. They *must* get something out to compete...
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Don’t think they will or need. If I talk to rent studios around here the only camera they are interested in is the XF with the 100MP. No body wants a GFX or other camera. This might change with capture one support but I doubt it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Fuji just annihilated and saved Phase One in one day.
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I guess this mean we won't be seeing a Phase One/ Mamiya 7 type body announced?
They wouldn't have directly supported a competitor if it was coming.
Shame.
Not necessarily.
Fuji has the 33x44 market tied up now but Phase One could bring out a full frame 645 mirrorless, or of course, larger.
Either way, Phase One just conceded to Fuji and I thought would never happen. They know what is good for them after all!
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Don’t think they will or need. If I talk to rent studios around here the only camera they are interested in is the XF with the 100MP. No body wants a GFX or other camera. This might change with capture one support but I doubt it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Mostly because of C1 though. Everything just changed.
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Don’t think they will or need. If I talk to rent studios around here the only camera they are interested in is the XF with the 100MP. No body wants a GFX or other camera. This might change with capture one support but I doubt it.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I respectfully disagree Christopher.
As an XF owner, this is the first body that excites me enough to downgrade my MP count to use. (My IQ4 is on order, I'll keep that for the Alps tech use). But this, with IBIS and AF points across 100% of frame, means I'll be headed to Fuji, no question. For what I do, this is the right camera. Ymmv, of course.
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Hasselblad just introduced three more XCD lenses, including an 80mm f1.9, and a teleconverter: https://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2018/09/25/with-no-fanfare-hasselblad-quietly-announces-fastest-autofocus-lens-ever
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I respectfully disagree Christopher.
As an XF owner, this is the first body that excites me enough to downgrade my MP count to use. (My IQ4 is on order, I'll keep that for the Alps tech use). But this, with IBIS and AF points across 100% of frame, means I'll be headed to Fuji, no question. For what I do, this is the right camera. Ymmv, of course.
I don’t disagree in general. I have the full Fuji GFX System next to my XF and Arca system.
I already have an GFX100 on order ( whenever it ships) but I don’t see it as a downfall for phase.
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Why do they call it rangefinder though? It's still an EVF with video from the sensor, not the wonky off-center thing from film rangefinders days right?. I've also noticed there seems to be no joystick on the back of the 50R - how does one select AF points?
They only call it “rangefinder-style”, referring to shape — but I prefer just “flat-top” vs “bump-top”.
I’ve read that AF points can be chosen with the touch screen.
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? Light is Light...
f3.5 is f3.5. Period. You want to shoot in low light, you need a faster lens than this.
Given the current ISO performance of the CMOS chips I would state this is no longer the case. Shooting at ISO1600 instead of ISO400 is of minimal difference now. Add in the DoF difference and you're more likely to be at f3.5/4/5.6 at ISO3200.
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? Light is Light...
f3.5 is f3.5.
True for intensity of sensor illumination, and for the ISO speed needed at a given shutter speed,
but in a larger format at equal angular FOV, the DOF is less, total sensor illumination is greater, and (so) a higher ISO speed can be used before noise is excessive. Have you skipped all the arguments about why FF is better than APS-C or MFT even when the latter have lenses of equally low minimum f-stop, or even lower?
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So far:
- I got it right for the IQ4 150 but didn't see Phase abandoning crop
- I got it right for the Fujis, but didn't get the pancake lens right (I predicted 40mm)
- I got the Leica S3 right.
- The Hasselblad news is still to drop as I write this
- C1 supporting Fuji is a completely unexpected development, as far a *I* am concerned.
Edmund
PS. You guys didn't like my Instagram. I am disappointed. I bet that when you go to Starbucks you don't tip.
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PS. You guys didn't like my Instagram. I am disappointed. I bet that when you go to Starbucks you don't tip.
Actually, I never go to Starbucks... or Instagram. ;)
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Actually, I never go to Starbucks... or Instagram. ;)
Actually I'm not surprised.
Edmund
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Leica S3: As this was not in the press release, according to Profifoto.de, the Leica S3 will cost 24k EUR in Germany (should be 28k in USD).
This looks not so good (to put it mildly), considering the 4.5k USD price point for Fuji GFX-R and 10k USD for GFX-100.
On that bases, I would guess that the Hasselblad X2D, whenever it will be announced will be around 14k USD.
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So far:
- I got it right for the IQ4 150 but didn't see Phase abandoning crop
- I got it right for the Fujis, but didn't get the pancake lens right (I predicted 40mm)
- I got the Leica S3 right.
- The Hasselblad news is still to drop as I write this
- C1 supporting Fuji is a completely unexpected development, as far a *I* am concerned.
Edmund
PS. You guys didn't like my Instagram. I am disappointed. I bet that when you go to Starbucks you don't tip.
Hasselblad doesn't even have a Press Conference scheduled so doesn't look like anything from them.
80mm 1.9 looks nice though.
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Leica S3: As this was not in the press release, according to Profifoto.de, the Leica S3 will cost 24k EUR in Germany (should be 28k in USD).
This looks not so good (to put it mildly), considering the 4.5k USD price point for Fuji GFX-R and 10k USD for GFX-100.
On that bases, I would guess that the Hasselblad X2D, whenever it will be announced will be around 14k USD.
That Leica S3 seems like an exercise in madness if priced at $28k.
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Leica S3: As this was not in the press release, according to Profifoto.de, the Leica S3 will cost 24k EUR in Germany.
This looks not so good, considering the 4.5k USD price point for Fuji GFX-R and 10k USD for GFX-100.
On that bases, I would guess that the Hasselblad X2D, whenever it will be announced will be around 14k USD.
Yes, one can expect a 30-40% markup on the Hassy, but the Fuji will be discounted very quickly to $7K or so, yielding an effective 2:1.
I think Hassy will have its cake and eat it by selling a modded version of the X1D-50C at $5-6K.
Edmund
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That Leica S3 seems like an exercise in madness if priced at $28k.
Let's see what the trade in is.
Edmund
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- The Hasselblad news is still to drop as I write this
You nailed it with the fast 80mm (f/1.9) and several other lenses from the roadmap.
Half credit for "XD2 ==> 100MP. Apart from the MP upgrade, I would expect on-sensor fast phase detect AF."
Yes that 100MP 44x33 sensor is to be deployed with on-sensor PDAF, but only Fujifilm has announced a camera with it so far.
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Not according to my source, who held a prototype recently: GFX2 has IBIS.
And with that plan now confirmed according to https://www.dpreview.com/news/4993360090/fujifilm-developing-100mp-medium-format-with-phase-detection-and-ibis my fantasy comes one step closer to reality: a DMF camera with hand-holdable "sweep mode" for everything from panoramas to uncropped squares. Or more prosaically, hand-held video gets better.
Actually, I would guess that to get value from 100MP and base ISO speed of 100 while hand-holding, IBIS is almost necessary (only the two longest G lenses have OIS), and these cameras ask to be hand-held.
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You nailed it with the fast 80mm (f/1.9) and several other lenses from the roadmap.
Half credit for "XD2 ==> 100MP. Apart from the MP upgrade, I would expect on-sensor fast phase detect AF."
Yes that 100MP 44x33 sensor is to be deployed with on-sensor PDAF, but only Fujifilm has announced a camera with it so far.
Thank you. I am a Popper fan. I believe in falsifiable predictions. So do you apparently.
Edmund
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Actually, I would guess that to get value from 100MP and base ISO speed of 100 while hand-holding, IBIS is almost necessary (only the two longest G lenses have OIS), and these cameras ask to be hand-held.
We will be posting a set of hand held shots we did with the IQ4 150mp tomorrow. It shows, just as the math would predict, that you only need around a stop faster shutter speed than a D850 to get excellent sharpness/detail at 100% pixel view (the most aggressive way of comparing).
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Doug,
Is that in natural light, with or without mirror lockup?
I guess if you use flash, the question is irrelevant anyway :)
Edmund
We will be posting a set of hand held shots we did with the IQ4 150mp tomorrow. It shows, just as the math would predict, that you only need around a stop faster shutter speed than a D850 to get excellent sharpness/detail at 100% pixel view (the most aggressive way of comparing).
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So we have three new Mfc but not one tilt and shift wide angle lens!
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I guess if you use flash, the question is irrelevant anyway :)
Not in my experience.
Even at the 30-40 megapixel range I find that flash duration isn't sufficiently short to guarantee ultimate per-pixel sharpness- at least not using my Hensel Porty 1200 system at the sort of powers needed to get to f/8 at base ISO. It's only going to get worse as the resolution continues to increase.
That's part of the reason why I care about things like electronic first shutter, leaf shutters and IBIS, even when shooting with flash. There are just so many ways to compromise sharpness down at the per-pixel level when shooting hand-held. I think this is part of the reason why there's a push towards shorter flash duration from the lighting manufacturers too.
Getting 12 megapixels optimally sharp was fairly easy. Getting 40 megapixels optimally sharp is trickier. Getting 100-150 megapixels optimally sharp is going to really push the boundaries.
Cheers, Hywel
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Is that in natural light, with or without mirror lockup?
Natural light, handheld, standard mirror function (i.e. not MUP).
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So... was that it for Photokina 2018 ?
Fuji the big news, or, is there another shoe about to drop?
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We will be posting a set of hand held shots we did with the IQ4 150mp tomorrow. It shows, just as the math would predict, that you only need around a stop faster shutter speed than a D850 to get excellent sharpness/detail at 100% pixel view (the most aggressive way of comparing).
Here is that article showing a hand hold test with the new XF IQ4 150mp at 1/60th with a 45mm lens (https://phaseoneiq4.com/yes-you-can-hand-hold-150-megapixels/).
Would I love another stop or two of hand-holdability from IBIS? Absolutely.
But if you gave me the choice between another clean stop of ISO or a stop of IBIS I wouldn't hesitate to pick the ISO. IBIS doesn't help unless you're in the gray zone between hand-holdable and not hand-holdable, nor does it help with moving subjects.
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So... was that it for Photokina 2018 ?
Fuji the big news, or, is there another shoe about to drop?
Unless someone sends me an email (edmundronald at gmail dot com) I don't understand what's going on with Hassy, nor the extent of the agreement between Phase and Fuji.
Hassy is in a very bad place with the X1D now positioned opposite TWO very capable 50MP Fuji cameras at half the price. They have no announced model positioned against the announced 100MP Fuji which has strong specs. Based on Fuji's track record, those specs are credible.
Phase do not have any more horses in the cheaper races, and are also going to face a competitor at 1/4 the price when the GFX-100S comes out. A competitor which relies on their own C1 software (!).
Last not least, the 100MP crop Sony sensor which is causing all this ruckus is ... nowhere to be seen.
Edmund
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Well that does seem to be it for bigger announcements.
Not clear why Phase summoned all its dealers to Germany, other than for a big 'jolly' - can anyone explain?
some things I'd like to see:
- The design schematic (elements/groups) of the new Fuji 50mm pancake lens, if anyone can find that.
- A link to the new Rodenstock 138mm HR lens (for tech camera stitching) which apparently goes above and beyond any LF lens ever for resolution!
- Some love for the Ricoh GRIII which got announced and is the ultimate pocket p/s.
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Not clear why Phase summoned all its dealers to Germany, other than for a big 'jolly' - can anyone explain?
Phase One has had a Dealer Conference at Kina every Kina since I've been doing this (the last six Kinas).
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Phase One has had a Dealer Conference at Kina every Kina since I've been doing this (the last six Kinas).
so.. it is a big Jolly !
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We will be posting a set of hand held shots we did with the IQ4 150mp tomorrow. It shows, just as the math would predict, that you only need around a stop faster shutter speed than a D850 to get excellent sharpness/detail at 100% pixel view (the most aggressive way of comparing).
Doug, of course it would be "internet style" oversimplifying trash talk to say that a 150MP camera always needs to be used on a tripod. It is just that the cases where hand-holding can get the best out of the sensor (including being able to use base ISO speed) are limited to fairly bright light and short focal lengths. That is what I expected of your examples, and that is what we got.
I do accept the basic point of that article though: it is linear resolution that dictates shutter speed needs, along with angular FOV rather than focal length itself, so the 1/f guideline relaxes in proportion to linear format size. So at 14,000 pixels wide, the linear resolution is only about four times what the 1/f rule was aiming at with 35mm film, so only about quadruples the shutter speed needed for a given FOV.
And big, heavy DMF SLR cameras have a bit of an inbuilt steadicam feature!
But how about a shoot-out at an indoor venue where neither flash not tripods are allowed.
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I have used my H6D-100c handheld quite a bit successfully. You need a sufficient shutter speed indeed.
But the key challenge isn't that, it is AF.
And this is where the Fuji GFX-100 will be in a totally different league to the extent that it will IMHO make the IQ4 and H6D-100c/H7D-150c irrelevant for non tripod usage, or more accurately for moving subjects.
Cheers,
Bernard
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So where is the Hassy set of Photokina announcements?
wtf?
Hasselblad are making a PR mistake of the type that can break a company.
Edmund
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So where is the Hassy set of Photokina announcements?
wtf?
Hasselblad are making a PR mistake of the type that can break a company.
Edmund
Lenses
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So where is the Hassy set of Photokina announcements?
wtf?
Hasselblad are making a PR mistake of the type that can break a company.
Fully agreed. The 3 X1D lenses announced are a very poor showing compared to Fuji and P1.
Cheers,
Bernard
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I think we overestimate the A&D department at Hasselblad. I think they have the same problems as Phase One. It’s just tiny compared to Fuji.
I think when Fuji released the GFX 50s they started nearly right away with the 50r and the 100s.
Hasselblad was doing everything possible to get the production running and problems solved with their current camera.
I had hoped that DJI would help there with more money and man power, but it looks like it didn’t happen.
The same goes for phase one they were working on the IQ4 and the team is so small that they certainly have no way on working on another big topic.
This is all speculation without any prove, just my best guess.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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No. The roadmap with the phase detect BSI 100Mp was known to H at least 3 years ago, they have planned out a full range of lenses, their tech project is calbrated to rendezvous with this chip, in the same way as the Fuji announcement has been pending for 6 months with the development running for 2 years, something has gone wrong here.
This is a full-grown PR disaster, from a company which is very savvy about PR. It feels wrong. And at the centre of this story is the 100MP Sony chip.
Give me some credit, look at my prediction track record in this thread. Something feels weird about the lack of an official Hassy statement, or interview, they should be giving some indications of being at the controls. If I were inclined to write rumors I would say at this point that I suspect that the relationship between Sony and Hassy is not as good as it could be.
It is possible that Sony just cannot make enough of this chip, are under contractual obligations for part of the production, and cannot supply Hassy who are stuck. Or maybe Hassy have become terminally bad at PR.
Edmund
I think we overestimate the A&D department at Hasselblad. I think they have the same problems as Phase One. It’s just tiny compared to Fuji.
I think when Fuji released the GFX 50s they started nearly right away with the 50r and the 100s.
Hasselblad was doing everything possible to get the production running and problems solved with their current camera.
I had hoped that DJI would help there with more money and man power, but it looks like it didn’t happen.
The same goes for phase one they were working on the IQ4 and the team is so small that they certainly have no way on working on another big topic.
This is all speculation without any prove, just my best guess.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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No. The roadmap with the phase detect BSI 100Mp was known to H at least 3 years ago, they have planned out a full range of lenses, their tech project is calbrated to rendezvous with this chip, in the same way as the Fuji announcement has been pending for 6 months with the development running for 2 years, something has gone wrong here.
This is a full-grown PR disaster, from a company which is very savvy about PR. It feels wrong. And at the centre of this story is the 100MP Sony chip.
Give me some credit, look at my prediction track record in this thread. Something feels weird about the lack of an official Hassy statement, or interview, they should be giving some indications of being at the controls. If I were inclined to write rumors I would say at this point that I suspect that the relationship between Sony and Hassy is not as good as it could be.
It is possible that Sony just cannot make enough of this chip, are under contractual obligations for part of the production, and cannot supply Hassy who are stuck. Or maybe Hassy have become terminally bad at PR.
It it were just about putting a 150mp sensor in an H6D we would have it already.
I believe that this means they are developing an H7D that is more ambitious. My bet is that it will feature an EVF as well as a couple of new H mount lenses that will be designed to AF decently.
But I could be wrong of course. ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
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It it were just about putting a 150mp sensor in an H6D we would have it already.
I believe that this means they are developing an H7D that is more ambitious. My bet is that it will feature an EVF as well as a couple of new H mount lenses that will be designed to AF decently.
But I could be wrong of course. ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
Bernard,
The X1D is the main Hasselblad branded camera at this point - not the H or even the cameras on the drones.
There won't be enough large-sized sensors around for some time to make an EVF H7-150 a viable seller in quantities sufficient to keep the company alive, and Fuji is making a 50MP camera at the price of an H6 lenscap.
Where is the X1D-100? ????????
Edmund
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I very much like Bernards idea of an EVF H, and while I could totally be wrong, I don't think we are going to see an evf H anytime soon. As seemingly obvious as the need for it is, I think it might be premature.
Although no one expected Fuji to drop IBIS into the GFX100 either so who knows. Perhaps now that Phase One has dropped the H platform from the repertoire they might focus everything on the H and the X will be delayed shortly.
The GFX100 changes everything though and I think it's certain I will try it out rather than the H or Phase One back for the first time in a long time.
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No. The roadmap with the phase detect BSI 100Mp was known to H at least 3 years ago, they have planned out a full range of lenses, their tech project is calbrated to rendezvous with this chip, in the same way as the Fuji announcement has been pending for 6 months with the development running for 2 years, something has gone wrong here.
This is a full-grown PR disaster, from a company which is very savvy about PR. It feels wrong. And at the centre of this story is the 100MP Sony chip.
Give me some credit, look at my prediction track record in this thread. Something feels weird about the lack of an official Hassy statement, or interview, they should be giving some indications of being at the controls. If I were inclined to write rumors I would say at this point that I suspect that the relationship between Sony and Hassy is not as good as it could be.
It is possible that Sony just cannot make enough of this chip, are under contractual obligations for part of the production, and cannot supply Hassy who are stuck. Or maybe Hassy have become terminally bad at PR.
I agree that the lack of an X2D and GXF 100 are puzzling, but don't forget that the next Photokina is in half a year (early May 2019) and that more cameras are sold in June (right before people travel) than for Christmas. 2018 is the last Photokina to take place in Autumn.
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I agree that the lack of an X2D and GXF 100 are puzzling, but don't forget that the next Photokina is in half a year (early May 2019) and that more cameras are sold in June (right before people travel) than for Christmas. 2018 is the last Photokina to take place in Autumn.
It is my opinion this is a PR disaster.
The puzzle is not the lack of a camera, it is the lack of a reaction in the form of a CEO interview.
Hassies and Leicas get given as Christmas gifts, and bought as "gifts to oneself" at Christmas. A woman of a certain social class will go into Dior any day of the year and drop $10K on a dress or $5K on a handbag on a whim, that's what makes the fashion trade so profitable. At Xmas she'll go out and get her guy a tie, or if she really likes him take him to the shop and make him buy "that camera" while she waits patiently for all of ten minutes.
If you ask the advertisers, they will tell you that about 70% of discretionary spending is now in the hands of women, the guys don't really do much that much everyday leisure buying. In fact in most high-priced city centres nowadays shops don't waste space on man stuff. But the sports car, luxury watch and camera trades are on the opposite side of that equation, and the Christmas sales are important. The same is true for mobile phones where men probably represent a significant fraction of the buyers of the large $1K phones with complex cameras
Ask the world's most profitable camera company, Apple - they make most of their sales in the year's end quarter.
Edmund
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A nice write up of the Leica S3.
Apparently Leica have realized that a good grip, fast start up, decent frame rate and nice finder are an asset for a camera :)
https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/27/17904802/leica-s3-medium-format-dslr-hands-on-photokina-2018
Edmund
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A nice write up of the Leica S3.
Apparently Leica have realized that a good grip, fast start up, decent frame rate and nice finder are an asset for a camera :)
https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/27/17904802/leica-s3-medium-format-dslr-hands-on-photokina-2018
Edmund
I tried the S1 when it came out, and was *shocked* how poor the standard 70mm/f2.5 lens was. It had a huge amount of CA on it, really making it near unusable. I asked the dealer, and once I'd declined to buy, he admitted, that they were dismayed at this too.
Hopefully they have improved things since then, but this was simply not good enough for a flagship product. Loved the body form, the shutter's quiteness, the build quality, etc, but all that is moot if the lenses fail to perform.`
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I agree that the lack of an X2D and GXF 100 are puzzling, but don't forget that the next Photokina is in half a year (early May 2019) and that more cameras are sold in June (right before people travel) than for Christmas. 2018 is the last Photokina to take place in Autumn.
For what it's worth we (DT) find a huge bump in sales at the end of the year (typically Thanksgiving to New Years) because of the tax benefits of spending photo-income (profits) in December vs January. It's always our best month. This is more true of our professional clients than our enthusiasts since the latter group by definition usually does not derive meaningful income/profit from photography, so I would not expect the same extent of a sales bump for products with a lower sales-to-pros ratio.
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No. The roadmap with the phase detect BSI 100Mp was known to H at least 3 years ago, they have planned out a full range of lenses, their tech project is calbrated to rendezvous with this chip, in the same way as the Fuji announcement has been pending for 6 months with the development running for 2 years, something has gone wrong here.
This is a full-grown PR disaster, from a company which is very savvy about PR. It feels wrong. And at the centre of this story is the 100MP Sony chip.
Give me some credit, look at my prediction track record in this thread. Something feels weird about the lack of an official Hassy statement, or interview, they should be giving some indications of being at the controls. If I were inclined to write rumors I would say at this point that I suspect that the relationship between Sony and Hassy is not as good as it could be.
It is possible that Sony just cannot make enough of this chip, are under contractual obligations for part of the production, and cannot supply Hassy who are stuck. Or maybe Hassy have become terminally bad at PR.
Edmund
This is simply baseless speculation. There are a number of possible reasons why Hasselblad has not issued any info about an X2D. Let’s start with this possibility: Hasselblad took a huge hit on its credibility by prematurely announcing the X1D and then released it when it was barely ready just to get it out the door. Do you think they may have decided not to repeat that debacle? Another possibility is that they want to keep the specifics of their plans under wraps and have some surprises of their own up their sleeves. Fuji has announced that they won’t release the GFS 100S till mid-2019. Once the initial mania dies down about the Fuji announcement, Hasselblad has plenty of time to make its own announcement. It simply has to announce before the Fuji hits the streets. It’s not like the Fuji is shipping next week. We may even hear something from Hasselblad at PhotoExpo in NYC. To me, the least likely possible explanation is the one you have chosen, that the lack of some sort of announcement reflects something dire about Hasselblad’s condition.
We shall see what’s in store. In the meantime, there are three new XCD lenses for the X1D. The MTF charts for the 135mm lens with the 1.7 teleconverter reflect a spectacular level of performance, even with the teleconverter mounted.
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A vision statement from Hasselblad would be nice. Lay out what they've accomplished with the X1D, how the H is still their flagship, pushing it to the 150mp sensor. Maybe some integration with the Bron lighting package - that they haven't released a HVD with a built in Bron remote is beyond me. A comment to a lens roadmap for the H mount, maybe emphasizing the partnership with Fuji? Talk about aerial images, the new DJI Mavic Pro 2, but also the A6D.
I can wish right?
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This is simply baseless speculation. There are a number of possible reasons why Hasselblad has not issued any info about an X2D. Let’s start with this possibility: Hasselblad took a huge hit on its credibility by prematurely announcing the X1D and then released it when it was barely ready just to get it out the door. Do you think they may have decided not to repeat that debacle? Another possibility is that they want to keep the specifics of their plans under wraps and have some surprises of their own up their sleeves. Fuji has announced that they won’t release the GFS 100S till mid-2019. Once the initial mania dies down about the Fuji announcement, Hasselblad has plenty of time to make its own announcement. It simply has to announce before the Fuji hits the streets. It’s not like the Fuji is shipping next week. We may even hear something from Hasselblad at PhotoExpo in NYC. To me, the least likely possible explanation is the one you have chosen, that the lack of some sort of announcement reflects something dire about Hasselblad’s condition.
We shall see what’s in store. In the meantime, there are three new XCD lenses for the X1D. The MTF charts for the 135mm lens with the 1.7 teleconverter reflect a spectacular level of performance, even with the teleconverter mounted.
BASLESS SPECULATION IS WHAT I DO HERE. IT IS WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT. So accusing me of reading the tealeaves when I run a fortune-telling tent seems a bit redundant. However I do usually start by evaluating the present as best I can before turning to the future. In this case, contrariwise of you reading of my words, I am pretty certain that Hasselblad is in perfect financial health as their parent DJI is very successful, and Hasselblad themselves have a new product line the XD which is selling well, with new lenses coming out that are eagerly awaited by the customer base, as you point out.
Now when it comes to Photokina, people do make decisions based on what they see and hear. Trade fairs are held precisely so the big buyers and vendors get together and plan the near and medium term future. Anyone who doesn't speak out at the meeting gets passed over; that's why companies send their CEOs, product managers, lead programmers and camera engineers, and not mid-level salesmen. I know these people are there because I used to interview them; I have myself interviewed two past Hasselblad CEOS.
Hasselblad are for some reason unwilling to reply to the Fuji announcement even though the Photokina environment would make such a statement customary. I don't know what the reason is, but this has become a deafening silence. My own *baseless speculation* is that it is something to do with the 100MP sensor and their relationship to Sony. It is possible for instance that they may dump Sony and have a new Chinese or Korean vendor come in with a brand new medium format chip. Samsung could certainly do so if they wanted.
Edmund
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It is my opinion this is a PR disaster.
The puzzle is not the lack of a camera, it is the lack of a reaction in the form of a CEO interview.
Hassies and Leicas get given as Christmas gifts, and bought as "gifts to oneself" at Christmas. A woman of a certain social class will go into Dior any day of the year and drop $10K on a dress or $5K on a handbag on a whim, that's what makes the fashion trade so profitable. At Xmas she'll go out and get her guy a tie, or if she really likes him take him to the shop and make him buy "that camera" while she waits patiently for all of ten minutes.
If you ask the advertisers, they will tell you that about 70% of discretionary spending is now in the hands of women, the guys don't really do much that much everyday leisure buying. In fact in most high-priced city centres nowadays shops don't waste space on man stuff. But the sports car, luxury watch and camera trades are on the opposite side of that equation, and the Christmas sales are important. The same is true for mobile phones where men probably represent a significant fraction of the buyers of the large $1K phones with complex cameras
Ask the world's most profitable camera company, Apple - they make most of their sales in the year's end quarter.
Edmund
Got it.
But do the luxury buyers follow Photokina news? Maybe the X2D is to be unveiled at a different place?
Frankly, I don't know why Hasselblad is silent. Possibly, the Sony chip is delayed. Possibly, they expect a completely different chip from Samsung. Possibly, DJI is busy moving Hasselblad's assembly line to Shenzen to undercut Fuji's prices in 2019. We simply do not know.
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BASLESS SPECULATION IS WHAT I DO HERE. IT IS WHAT THIS THREAD IS ABOUT.
Edmund
I believe you cross the line between speculating about the possible introduction of products at a forthcoming trade show like Photokina and describing a company’s failure to not ANNOUNCE a new product many months in advance of actually releasing it as a “PR disaster.”
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Got it.
But do the luxury buyers follow Photokina news? Maybe the X2D is to be unveiled at a different place?
Maybe here?
https://preview.tinyurl.com/y7olmz96
Steve Hendrix/CI
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I believe you cross the line between speculating about the possible introduction of products at a forthcoming trade show like Photokina and describing a company’s failure to not ANNOUNCE a new product many months in advance of actually releasing it as a “PR disaster.”
I'm sorry, at this point I've lost track of what crime I'm being accused of today. Life is tough for fortune tellers and supreme court nominees.
But regarding Hasselblad, their main competitor Fuji has just announced a major product in the trade-fair upgrade context, and in this context it is usually expected, it is customary, for a company to quickly brief the press, on or off the record, about how they view this evolution of the competitive landscape. This messaging is for the benefit of the whole ecosystem; ie. customers, distributors and investors.
The absence of messaging creates an uncertainty, a cloud of doubt if you wish.
Notice that Doug did state -without being pushed too hard- that as regards Phase One, no crop-frame product would be coming in the existing IQ range. Leica had less need to brief officially as they released the S3 demonstrating their short-term intent in the medium format market. While Hasselblad are reserving their voice, which *I* consider to be a PR error, in form and in effect.
Edmund
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Here is an MF hybrid I didn't know about.
https://www.theverge.com/2017/6/2/15725890/fujifilm-instax-sq10-review-instant-polaroid-digital-camera
https://phototrend.fr/2018/09/test-fujifilm-instax-square-sq10/
Fuji would make many of us very happy with a Hasselblad back for this film format.
Edmund
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Question of the day - where is the Hasselblad H6D150?
Judging by the comments on this forum, the Phase 150Mp is getting some real customer love.
Edmund
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The absence of messaging creates an uncertainty, a cloud of doubt if you wish.
Apparently, Hasselblad/DJI lost their "director of strategy".
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Apparently, Hasselblad/DJI lost their "director of strategy".
And since there is silence on all sides, nobody knows exactly what is meant by "lost" in this context.
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Question of the day - where is the Hasselblad H6D150?
Judging by the comments on this forum, the Phase 150Mp is getting some real customer love.
Edmund
That is a very good question. The silence from Hasselblad over Photokina was deafening. They didn't even have a press conference.
They will be trying to stem the blood flow after being on the receiving end of the 2 hit combo of Fuji GFX100 and C1 Support PLUS Phase One dropping H from their repertoire.
The Prognosis does not appear that good, at a time when they seemed to be gaining the upper hand too.
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That is a very good question. The silence from Hasselblad over Photokina was deafening. They didn't even have a press conference.
They will be trying to stem the blood flow after being on the receiving end of the 2 hit combo of Fuji GFX100 and C1 Support PLUS Phase One dropping H from their repertoire.
The Prognosis does not appear that good, at a time when they seemed to be gaining the upper hand too.
Lots of time to "recover." It all depends upon what Hasselblad does between now and next Summer when Fuji releases the GFX100. The X2D with the 100MP sensor may be far more desirable than the GFX100 for many photographers. We don't know, do we? We don't know anything about the X2D other than the sensor, and even that's not a certainty. Those that are making the dire predictions about Hasselblad are generally not potential buyers anyway. It does seem to always work like that.
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And since there is silence on all sides, nobody knows exactly what is meant by "lost" in this context.
Notes from Ming Thein on his blog: https://blog.mingthein.com/2018/10/03/moving-on/ (https://blog.mingthein.com/2018/10/03/moving-on/)
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And since there is silence on all sides, nobody knows exactly what is meant by "lost" in this context.
The former director of strategy has a blog post up about this now. Doesn't say much other than the job was frustrating.
Edit: Looks like Alan beat me to it. And provided links and screenshots!
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Re: Ming Thein -> We only have one side of the story here. I wonder what the other side would post. I especially wonder why DJI is not mentioned in the "reasons for leaving"...
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Lots of time to "recover." It all depends upon what Hasselblad does between now and next Summer when Fuji releases the GFX100. The X2D with the 100MP sensor may be far more desirable than the GFX100 for many photographers. We don't know, do we? We don't know anything about the X2D other than the sensor, and even that's not a certainty. Those that are making the dire predictions about Hasselblad are generally not potential buyers anyway. It does seem to always work like that.
My prediction about Hasselblad isn't that wonderful right now and I have been a Hasselblad customer for well over 20 years. I'm interested in the X2D, but I was really expecting to see life of it at Photokina and I have to say that GFX100 ticks a whole heap of boxes and creates some new ones too that the rest have got to get ticking.
The lack of C1 Support for the X1D is going to be damning, IMO.
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Latest rumor on the GFX100s is it will have pixel shift. As it has IBIS in the design this is a nice addition. Hopefully there will be a good software solution for it. LR never got the K1 pixel shift right and C1 never tried.
Paul C
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We will be posting a set of hand held shots we did with the IQ4 150mp tomorrow. It shows, just as the math would predict, that you only need around a stop faster shutter speed than a D850 to get excellent sharpness/detail at 100% pixel view (the most aggressive way of comparing).
What about higher shutter speed at sunny day, say, 500 or even higher? will it give us A+ sharpness hand held?
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What about higher shutter speed at sunny day, say, 500 or even higher? will it give us A+ sharpness hand held?
The The test (https://phaseoneiq4.com/yes-you-can-hand-hold-150-megapixels/) was a 45mm lens at 1/60th which is roughly 1/1.5x. I. Then downlaods for that test is also a hand held test with that lens at 1/160.
For ideal results we’d recommend a min of 1/3x which, for the 45mm lens would mean roughly 1/125th.
Therefore, for a 45mm lens we would consider 1/500 to be significant overkill for anyone with reasonably steady hands.
When using a longer lens like a 150mm then a shutter speed of 1/500 would certainly be in-line with excellent practice.
Of course each shooter should do their own test to determine their own min speed since this will vary from person to person.
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I think I will hijack this thread a bit - I'm sure the OP won't mind - and talk about Hasselblad and the X2D some more.
The absence of a Hasselblad reaction to the Fuji products has been surprising.
My current line of thought is that this might be about DJI and Sony.
Edmund
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I think I will hijack this thread a bit - I'm sure the OP won't mind - and talk about Hasselblad and the X2D some more.
The absence of a Hasselblad reaction to the Fuji products has been surprising.
My current line of thought is that this might be about DJI and Sony.
Edmund
It could also be that Hasselblad were panned for announcing the X1D way before they were able to deliver.
A lesson learned?
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It could also be that Hasselblad were panned for announcing the X1D way before they were able to deliver.
A lesson learned?
I don't think that's it because the second dog didn't bark either: no H6D-150.
Edmund
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I don't think that's it because the second dog didn't bark either: no H6D-150.
Perhaps the companies are on different points in their development cycles, and Hasselblad doesn't have anything to announce at the moment. That would be an obvious explanation. Less fun than idle speculation perhaps.
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I don't think that's it because the second dog didn't bark either: no H6D-150.
Edmund
Maybe both aren't ready?
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Maybe both aren't ready?
If you don't have a product to sell you don't sell product.
In the mean time the Phase 150 is selling nicely - surely Doug, you won't contradict me?
Edmund
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If you don't have a product to sell you don't sell product.
In the mean time the Phase 150 is selling nicely - surely Doug, you won't contradict me?
Edmund
Then it's quite obvious they need to announce product that isn't yet developed.
;-)
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In the mean time the Phase 150 is selling nicely - surely Doug, you won't contradict me?
It may be selling nicely, but it is not yet being delivered.
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It may be selling nicely, but it is not yet being delivered.
My feeling is Phase and Fuji have contracts with Sony for new-generation chips and Hassy hasn't. It's just a feeling of course.
One reason might be that DJi is a significant vendor and the negotiations with DJI are tied up in some way with those for Hassy.
Edmund
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My feeling is Phase and Fuji have contracts with Sony for new-generation chips and Hassy hasn't. It's just a feeling of course.
One reason might be that DJi is a significant vendor and the negotiations with DJI are tied up in some way with those for Hassy.
Edmund
Sony effectively now has the whole MF industry at their mercy.
Like the old days when you could have any brand camera but only one Kodachrome.
Edmund
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Sony effectively now has the whole MF industry at their mercy.
Like the old days when you could have any brand camera but only one Kodachrome.
*shrugs*
Phase One has used sensors from Phillips—>Dalsa—>Teledyne, Kodak—>TruSense, and Sony. Leica uses someone other than Sony (the name of which escapes me at the moment).
Sony, at the moment, makes the best medium format sensors, but as far as I can tell it’s just as likely than not to be someone else at some point in the future.
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Sheer speculation: Hasselblad plans to release its 100MP mirrorless at not a lot higher price than current X1D pricing, and only then discount or discontinue the X1D. If so, the “Osborne Rule” says to stay quiet about it. Fujifilm is in a different situation, planning a clear price and feature distinction between its new “entry level” 50 MP model and its future higher spec 100MP model.
Sometimes (even most of the time), different actions by different companies are just dealing with different situations and priorities, not because one is being managed by fools who should consult Internet forums more often!
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*shrugs*
Phase One has used sensors from Phillips—>Dalsa—>Teledyne, Kodak—>TruSense, and Sony. Leica uses someone other than Sony (the name of which escapes me at the moment).
Sony, at the moment, makes the best medium format sensors, but as far as I can tell it’s just as likely than not to be someone else at some point in the future.
*shrug* indeed.
I guess Doug has read "The Art of the Deal" about being ready to walk away :)
I don't think Kodak or even Dalsa will be maing a lot of sensors for Phase in the future :)
As the Phase - there is only one, right? is built with a Sony chip, there would presumably be a lot of engineering to redo to use a different supplier with different interfaces.
Edmund
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Fuji are now adding insult to injury when it come to Hassy by crazy-pricing their GF series lenses.
Details are here.
https://fujiaddict.com/2018/10/07/sunday-savings-adds-gfx50r-bundles-and-new-gf-lens-savings/
Not just bundles but lens rebates - the 110mm F2 ends up at $2K if you deduct the gift card on BH
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?InitialSearch=yes&N=0&Ntt=Fujifilm+GF+110mm+F2&Top+Nav-Search=&sts=ma&typedValue=
I think it's just about game over for Hassy, with this low pricing of the 50R body and C1 bundled for free, and lenses being given away, unless they slash prices they are going under. Though I wonder why Fuji are suddenly going berserk, often 2 companies sharing a market do better than just one because they build an environment.
Edmund
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I'll make a forecast: With these crazy downhill prices and C1 thrown in, pro Phase users are going to run for the Fuji trade-in, as the software that makes all the difference is now part of the deal. Hassy users with aging systems may do the same, based on pricing alone.
We shouldn't forget that old backs tether by firewire, and that is an interface that has been on life support for some time. The Macs which have firewire are now all classified as "obsolete", and out of maintenance in most of the world. Part of the upgrade pressure comes from the problems associated with maintaining obsolete tethering setups.
I look forward to getting an H5D and an 80mm on the used market in a few months :)
Edmund
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Sony, at the moment, makes the best medium format sensors, but as far as I can tell it’s just as likely than not to be someone else at some point in the future.
Correct. At various times they have made the best transistor radios, best monitors, best TVs, best video recorders, best music players etc.
They are a consumer electronics company and their desire goes with the market and changes just as quick. At the moment they have an interest in cameras.
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Correct. At various times they have made the best transistor radios, best monitors, best TVs, best video recorders, best music players etc.
They are a consumer electronics company and their desire goes with the market and changes just as quick. At the moment they have an interest in cameras.
Sorry - sensors are now basic electronic modules with high added value, employed in cars, phones, security, gadgets etc. Sony Semiconductor wants to own a large part of this component market - the consumer business that makes cameras is a different story.
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I think it's just about game over for Hassy...
The market is changing for everyone. You see a lack of traditional response by Hasselblad and think that's there only option. I think you're wrong. With a very prolific and highly profitable company owning them and already introducing the brand name into a burgeoning market none of us can guess what's next.
We shouldn't forget that old backs tether by firewire, and that is an interface that has been on life support for some time.
I have multiple firewire 800 drives running on brand new macs at the studio. You just need to adapt (https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MD464LL/A/apple-thunderbolt-to-firewire-adapter) them.
Several successful, full time Pro shooters, who rent my studio are using the same adapter from older backs to modern Macs. A little gaffers tape on every tether connection is standard practice. I like red tape myself. it works well to remind assistants to be heads up when we move the camera or computer during a shoot.
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The market is changing for everyone. You see a lack of traditional response by Hasselblad and think that's there only option. I think you're wrong. With a very prolific and highly profitable company owning them and already introducing the brand name into a burgeoning market none of us can guess what's next.
I have multiple firewire 800 drives running on brand new macs at the studio. You just need to adapt (https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MD464LL/A/apple-thunderbolt-to-firewire-adapter) them.
Several successful, full time Pro shooters, who rent my studio are using the same adapter from older backs to modern Macs. A little gaffers tape on every tether connection is standard practice. I like red tape myself. it works well to remind assistants to be heads up when we move the camera or computer during a shoot.
Also correct. Every Mac from current to at least 10 years old will connect to Firewire either directly, through a Thunderbolt 2 adapter or a Thunderbolt 3 to 2 to Firewire. The only problem is that you are limited to the speed of the slowest part. That is not a problem with old backs but it is with new cameras and old computers. My X1D is limited in speed to the USB2 of my 2010 MBP, but will work USB3 to my 2013 iMac.
Hasselblad sold more X1D in the first month than they expected to sell in entire year. Anyone who has actually held one knows why they are selling. It is lighter and smaller than my Canon. Currently I am using HC and Canon lens with adapters but I will certainly be saving for XCDs. You don't bring out cheaper models if the current one is selling fast.
Sony once had the entire market for music players with the Walkman. That disappeared overnight and they were unable to respond.
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If I may hijack this thread again to speak about Medium Format changes at Photokina 2018:
- The Fuji GFX 50R camera announcements completely changed the economics of medium format ownership, as the entry price has fallen to under $5K.
- The Fuji pricing will effectively ripple into the existing used market, especially if the very modern 50R turns out to have superior focus.
- With Fuji on board, Capture One is now in a position where it could become the defacto Raw conversion standard across the industry.
Edmund
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- The Fuji GFX 50R camera announcements completely changed the economics of medium format ownership, as the entry price has fallen to under $5K.
- The Fuji pricing will effectively ripple into the existing used market, especially if the very modern 50R turns out to have superior focus.
- With Fuji on board, Capture One is now in a position where it could become the defacto Raw conversion standard across the industry.
I agree to 1 and 2.
I am not so sure about 3. Lightroom probably is still the defacto standard.
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- With Fuji on board, Capture One is now in a position where it could become the defacto Raw conversion standard across the industry.
Depends on what you mean by "defacto Raw conversion standard across the industry".
If you mean "the choice, by far, of the professional and high-end enthusiast community" then this has been the case for a decade. Call any rental house, production company, or digital tech in a major city and ask if they prefer LR or C1 and you'll get near unanimous in favor of C1.
If you mean "leader in market share among all raw convertors" then this is not the case today, and is not the goal of Phase One. Making the mass-market raw convertor is not their mentality nor business model. It's just not in their blood.
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Depends on what you mean by "defacto Raw conversion standard across the industry".
If you mean "the choice, by far, of the professional and high-end enthusiast community" then this has been the case for a decade. Call any rental house, production company, or digital tech in a major city and ask if they prefer LR or C1 and you'll get near unanimous in favor of C1.
If you mean "leader in market share among all raw convertors" then this is not the case today, and is not the goal of Phase One. Making the mass-market raw convertor is not their mentality nor business model. It's just not in their blood.
Doug, maybe a company can adapt to its customer requests?
Edmund
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I agree to 1 and 2.
I am not so sure about 3. Lightroom probably is still the defacto standard.
Yeah, we will see. Lightroom is a good workflow app, but less convincing as a Raw converter. Consumers tend to catalog, but enthusiasts work intensively image by image.
Edmund
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If I may hijack this thread again to speak about Medium Format changes at Photokina 2018:
- The Fuji GFX 50R camera announcements completely changed the economics of medium format ownership, as the entry price has fallen to under $5K.
- The Fuji pricing will effectively ripple into the existing used market, especially if the very modern 50R turns out to have superior focus.
- With Fuji on board, Capture One is now in a position where it could become the defacto Raw conversion standard across the industry.
Edmund
Hijack it all you want, but it is readily apparent that your observations about the medium format market are ill informed by your lack of understanding of some basic business realities. There are two kinds of investors in businesses. Strategic investors, who tend to have deep pockets and a long term investment horizon. They buy or invest in a business because it fits their long term goals to grow their existing business. In contrast, there are financial investors who buy businesses to grow them and sell them, ideally within 3-6 years. While they may have deep pockets also, they are very judicious about investing more money into that business unless they see a clear path to accelerating the growth of the existing business. There is no long term vision. They are in it to sell the company and return the proceeds to the investors. Fuji is a strategic investor. So is DJI, who own Hasselblad. Phase One, on the other hand, is owned by a financial investor who likely wants out and doesn't want to double down its investment at this stage. As I look at the landscape here, the one company among the three that are involved in the medium format market now that I think is at risk is Phase One. It has no seat at the table...none...as Fuji is selling huge numbers of bodies and lenses. Hasselblad's sales don't approach Fuji's, but Hasselblad is selling X1Ds and lenses way beyond its wildest dreams when somebody conceived the X1D. This new reality represents a sea change in the medium format market where as recently as two years ago Phase was the 800 pound gorilla. When the new bodies with the 100MP Sony sensor are released next year, things will only get worse for Phase One. They will soon be primarily a software company that possibly has a niche role with the Cultural Heritage stuff and maybe aerial mapping (though remember who owns Hasselblad). The decision to do a deal with Fuji for Capture One support just confirms that. As for whether Hasselblad will be steamrollered into oblivion by Fuji, I wouldn't bet on it. You are looking at all of this with tunnel vision. Your focus is on who announced what on September 25 of 2018, and drawing conclusions from that in order to keep your thread alive. This isn't a sprint event. It's a marathon. The owner of Hasselblad, DJI, completely dominates the drone market. Completely. I have no idea about the details of DJI's involvement with Hasselblad, but any company that achieves that level of dominance in a technologically driven market like drones is a force to be reckoned with.
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This isn't a sprint event. It's a marathon.
A very valid point but could I ask one big favor ?
Please use the enter key. A post that thick is really hard to read.
Giving us your thoughts in short sprints and not one big marathon will mean that more readers will make it to the end.
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"Hijack it all you want, but it is readily apparent that your observations about the medium format market are ill informed by your lack of understanding of some basic business realities"
Wow. A little harsh.
And perhaps also somewhat ironic that you start your post with these words.
There are certainly investors who are good stewards and there investors who are Robber Barron's, but my experience is that there are many more senior executives who fall in the gray area between these black and white extremes.
From what I can see, Phase One is quite intelligently run. I have learned a few things which surprised me (in a good way) from how they do business and I believe they know quite well what they are about. They have been quite successful and I'm guessing they have a good shot at continuing to be so.
Most of the people buying Fuji are not people who can or would buy Phase cameras. Fuji is forging a new market of MF customers.
Phase may lose some business to Fuji, but Phase will also gain some business from those who transition up the chain, even if it is mostly rentals.
I'm pretty sure Phase doesn't sell a huge number of bodies to amateurs and probably not that many to professional photographers, either. I'm guessing rentals and institutional sales are the bulk of it.
Smaller cameras getting better and eating into the capability of the bigger cameras...why does this have a familiar ring to it? Oh, that's my phone ringing. Gotta go... ;)
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If we edit out the personal attacks, I would say that there are some interesting strands of thought in your post.
Before Photokina 2018 I was totally bored with the MF market. I started the thread, but did not really understand that the competitive landscape might be significantly modified. And then the Fuji 50R pricing hit, the C1 deal, Phase giving up on crop, and the Fuji Ibis 100Mp announcement, no response from Hassy, and no 150MP Hassy H, and suddenly MF looked like an island after a Tsunami.
In the wake of such an upheaval I agree that financial investors may call time on P1, while Hassy is a strategic purchase by DJI. On the other hand P1 may have some significant hidden software revenue and also potential from C1, and may survive as a software house. I have no idea what the numbers are on their cultural stuff and aerial mapping cameras, but I do suspect that military customers in Europe would prefer not to purchase their tech from China :)
Let me correct you however on the view of the market as a marathon - it is more like a mass wrestling event where new fresh fighters arrive in the ring as old and fatigued brawlers get choked out or simply walk away. The role of a commentator is only to call out significant events so viewers can focus on them.
Pentax seems to be such a walk-away, and I agree that Phase may follow. However nobody would really miss these two contenders in 2018, not in the way the Hasselblad V, Rollei and Contax products are fondly remembered.
As regards Hassy and DJI, I suspect that something is going on between DJI and Sony; one thing which might happen is DJI consolidating Phase and Hasselblad, thereby consolidating their aerial mapping activities and acquiring software to help keep the Hassy product line alive. Still photography, let's face it, may be entering a phase as a mature market in which strong consolidation is inevitable.
Edmund
PS - there are 13 Phase/Leaf backs on sale on the first 2 pages of the for sale forum. I think my prediction of Fuji setting off a stampede to the exits of legacy Phase back owners might have been accurate rather than merely provocative ;D
Hijack it all you want, but it is readily apparent that your observations about the medium format market are ill informed by your lack of understanding of some basic business realities. There are two kinds of investors in businesses. Strategic investors, who tend to have deep pockets and a long term investment horizon. They buy or invest in a business because it fits their long term goals to grow their existing business. In contrast, there are financial investors who buy businesses to grow them and sell them, ideally within 3-6 years. While they may have deep pockets also, they are very judicious about investing more money into that business unless they see a clear path to accelerating the growth of the existing business. There is no long term vision. They are in it to sell the company and return the proceeds to the investors. Fuji is a strategic investor. So is DJI, who own Hasselblad. Phase One, on the other hand, is owned by a financial investor who likely wants out and doesn't want to double down its investment at this stage. As I look at the landscape here, the one company among the three that are involved in the medium format market now that I think is at risk is Phase One. It has no seat at the table...none...as Fuji is selling huge numbers of bodies and lenses. Hasselblad's sales don't approach Fuji's, but Hasselblad is selling X1Ds and lenses way beyond its wildest dreams when somebody conceived the X1D. This new reality represents a sea change in the medium format market where as recently as two years ago Phase was the 800 pound gorilla. When the new bodies with the 100MP Sony sensor are released next year, things will only get worse for Phase One. They will soon be primarily a software company that possibly has a niche role with the Cultural Heritage stuff and maybe aerial mapping (though remember who owns Hasselblad). The decision to do a deal with Fuji for Capture One support just confirms that. As for whether Hasselblad will be steamrollered into oblivion by Fuji, I wouldn't bet on it. You are looking at all of this with tunnel vision. Your focus is on who announced what on September 25 of 2018, and drawing conclusions from that in order to keep your thread alive. This isn't a sprint event. It's a marathon. The owner of Hasselblad, DJI, completely dominates the drone market. Completely. I have no idea about the details of DJI's involvement with Hasselblad, but any company that achieves that level of dominance in a technologically driven market like drones is a force to be reckoned with.
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Come on, Fuji Rumors has been trumpeting the release of the Fuji 50R and the likely price point for months. The 50R and the price were hardly news. Same with the GFX 100S. Everybody has known about it for what a year? The only surprises to me were (1) the relative high price point, (2) it is perhaps 9 months away from release, and (3) IBIS. Only #3 is positive news. If Fuji had said that the GFX 100S would shipping in two months and the price was $7000, THAT would have shaken up the market. They didn't. The one real piece of news that I didn't see coming was Phase raising the white flag, leaving the cropped MF marketplace to Fuji and Hasselblad and doing a deal with Fuji on C1. Is that such a big deal that it imperils Hasselblad's very existence? Not as I see it. Fuji was already selling a boatload of GFXs to photographers who were totally committed to Capture One. They still bit the bullet and apparently learned to live with LR/ACR. My sense is that the vast majority of prospective X1D/X2D buyers are let's say enthusiasts who couldn't care less about Capture One. To them, it's just a fringe alternative to LR that isn't worth the bother to learn. If the purchaser of an X1D wants the very best raw converter, there is Phocus. It's not nearly as feature rich as C1, but the raw file conversions of X1D files out of it are superb.
Was I surprised that Hasselblad had no announcement at Photokina about the X2D or an H7150? Somewhat, but I don't read that much into it. We know the X2D is coming; we just don't know when. There are likely very good reasons why Hasselblad chose not to make a "development" announcement on the X2D. One, they want to avoid a repeat of the premature announcement/release of the X1D. Two, why announce a successor to the X1D when you don't have the replacement product ready to go? The sales of X1Ds would dry up overnight. Fuji could pull of the 100MP announcement because it had the 50R ready to go at less than half the price of the GFX 100S. Three, why play your hand about the features of the X2D in advance at Photokina where your news is in the shadow of the Nikon Z, Canon's mirrorless, Fuji's announcement about the 50R the 100S and C1, etc?
I agree about Phase and where the company may go in the future. Spin off the software business, which does seem to have a bright future, and then sell the vestiges of the camera business to a buyer that can incorporate the valuable assets still left. Who would that be? Hasselblad! That would solve two problems. The combined company would have the X1D as the high volume, cropped MF platform to continue to develop. It would also have the the Phase XF and the Phase lenses for the very high end. The Hasselblad H body and most of the HC lenses are in need of a serious update, and Hasselblad could avoid that effort and expense.
quote author=eronald link=topic=126511.msg1072192#msg1072192 date=1539137383]
If we edit out the personal attacks, I would say that there are some interesting strands of thought in your post.
Before Photokina 2018 I was totally bored with the MF market. I started the thread, but did not really understand that the competitive landscape might be significantly modified. And then the Fuji 50R pricing hit, the C1 deal, Phase giving up on crop, and the Fuji Ibis 100Mp announcement, no response from Hassy, and no 150MP Hassy H, and suddenly MF looked like an island after a Tsunami.
In the wake of such an upheaval I agree that financial investors may call time on P1, while Hassy is a strategic purchase by DJI. On the other hand P1 may have some significant hidden software revenue and also potential from C1, and may survive as a software house. I have no idea what the numbers are on their cultural stuff and aerial mapping cameras, but I do suspect that military customers in Europe would prefer not to purchase their tech from China :)
Let me correct you however on the view of the market as a marathon - it is more like a mass wrestling event where new fresh fighters arrive in the ring as old and fatigued brawlers get choked out or simply walk away. The role of a commentator is only to call out significant events so viewers can focus on them.
Pentax seems to be such a walk-away, and I agree that Phase may follow. However nobody would really miss these two contenders in 2018, not in the way the Hasselblad V, Rollei and Contax products are fondly remembered.
As regards Hassy and DJI, I suspect that something is going on between DJI and Sony; one thing which might happen is DJI consolidating Phase and Hasselblad, thereby consolidating their aerial mapping activities and acquiring software to help keep the Hassy product line alive. Still photography, let's face it, may be entering a phase as a mature market in which strong consolidation is inevitable.
Edmund
[/quote]
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I think you are overseeing one big possibility here. DJI wanted mainly the name Hasselblad and never had any real untreated in running a camera business.
Why? Because to their drones it’s just not very profitable. I hope I’m wrong, because I really would not like rinse only one player in FF MF at the end. However, I don’t see DJI investing to much in new H lenses and cameras.
I don’t see an X2D below 10k and not before Fuji releases the GFX 100s.
Im with Edmund, that Fuji is changing the rules. As long as DJI doesn’t spent huge amounts of money there is no catching up.
Regarding Phase, I really don’t see them going away in the near future. They haven’t sold lots of backs before and they won’t now. However, they don’t need to. They run a very low number, high margin business. In addition, opening up C1 and going more and more into software has some huge potential.
Let’s look at an example of a Phase Mirrorless cropped medium format camera. From a business perspective it makes no sense. Developing a camera and completely new lenses costs a huge amount of money. They would still need to sell it below 15k. Everyone thinking it could sell for a big premium is kidding them self... not when Fuji offers these prices.
So going below 15k would mean selling huge amounts to get all the costs back in. It’s just not realistic.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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There are two kinds of investors in businesses.
There are two kinds of investors in businesses--investors in businesses who say there are two kinds of investors in businesses and investors in businesses who don't. ;) :D ;D
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Regarding Phase, the dealers who were selling middle-priced solutions and Hassy backs have lost their product, with the departure from crop, leaving only the top guys. Even Doug may be affected. Less dealers probably means less sales, so Phase may contract down to a special solution camera and software house.
My feeling within a month or two the Hassy situation will have played out with some sort of merger, and then the H will probably get killed and the XD will have its dev costs written off and the price will match Fuji.
Edmund
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I think you are overseeing one big possibility here. DJI wanted mainly the name Hasselblad and never had any real untreated in running a camera business.
Why? Because to their drones it’s just not very profitable. I hope I’m wrong, because I really would not like rinse only one player in FF MF at the end. However, I don’t see DJI investing to much in new H lenses and cameras.
I don’t see an X2D below 10k and not before Fuji releases the GFX 100s.
Im with Edmund, that Fuji is changing the rules. As long as DJI doesn’t spent huge amounts of money there is no catching up.
Regarding Phase, I really don’t see them going away in the near future. They haven’t sold lots of backs before and they won’t now. However, they don’t need to. They run a very low number, high margin business. In addition, opening up C1 and going more and more into software has some huge potential.
Let’s look at an example of a Phase Mirrorless cropped medium format camera. From a business perspective it makes no sense. Developing a camera and completely new lenses costs a huge amount of money. They would still need to sell it below 15k. Everyone thinking it could sell for a big premium is kidding them self... not when Fuji offers these prices.
So going below 15k would mean selling huge amounts to get all the costs back in. It’s just not realistic.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Why does Hasselblad have to "catch up" to Fuji? You don't think there is room for two players who produce two distinctly different cropped MF camera systems? There are relatively few consumer product segments where there is only one player. (Other than the drone segment, and you know who controls that.)
Is DJI in it for the long haul with Hasselblad to develop the MF side of the business? I think so, but I am not privy to the R&D budget or the long range strategic plan. Your assumption is that DJI bought Hasselblad just for the name. That is a possibility, but even if DJI wanted the name for the halo effect, that doesn't last long if Hasselblad's camera business is shuttered. The halo effect only works if the market perceives Hasselblad as a producer of premium products. I also think that DJI wanted Hasselblad for its expertise in developing the color pipeline for the cameras used in the DJI drones. I personally prefer it to all of the other digital systems I have worked with. I gather this is exactly what Hasselblad's role was in the development of the Hasselblad branded camera in the Mavic 2 Pro.
I hope the doomsayers are wrong. It will be a sad state of affairs if the only options left in MF are Japanese-style DSLRs from Fuji.
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I expect Phase to contract its staff and dealer net substantially at this point, as their only prosumer hardware product costs $50K. When it is contracted, the compact core will make a desirable acquisition target for a third party in culture or aerial imaging.
Edmund
Why does Hasselblad have to "catch up" to Fuji? You don't think there is room for two players who produce two distinctly different cropped MF camera systems? There are relatively few consumer product segments where there is only one player. (Other than the drone segment, and you know who controls that.)
Is DJI in it for the long haul with Hasselblad to develop the MF side of the business? I think so, but I am not privy to the R&D budget or the long range strategic plan. Your assumption is that DJI bought Hasselblad just for the name. That is a possibility, but even if DJI wanted the name for the halo effect, that doesn't last long if Hasselblad's camera business is shuttered. The halo effect only works if the market perceives Hasselblad as a producer of premium products. I also think that DJI wanted Hasselblad for its expertise in developing the color pipeline for the cameras used in the DJI drones. I personally prefer it to all of the other digital systems I have worked with. I gather this is exactly what Hasselblad's role was in the development of the Hasselblad branded camera in the Mavic 2 Pro.
I hope the doomsayers are wrong. It will be a sad state of affairs if the only options left in MF are Japanese-style DSLRs from Fuji.
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I expect Phase to contract its staff and dealer net substantially at this point, as their only prosumer hardware product costs $50K.
Phase One options (certified pre-owned with warranty, brand new accessories, and full dealer support) start at $10k.
https://www.dtcommercialphoto.com/product-category/refurbished-backs-bodies-lenses/pre-owned-phase-one-digital-backs/
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It's statements like this that define your credibility, or to me your lack of it. This is not personal, please do not be offended, that is not my intention. I just think you have developed a very myopic view of the industry.
Here is the U.S. you can walk into a store and buy an RCA branded TV. You can buy a Sharp branded TV many places all over the world. Both companies once were stand alone brands that achieved a perceived value of high quality but eventually fell prey to the globalization of technology and failed. Then a Pacific Rim investment group bought the brands, had TVs made in China and re-marketed the brands to the unsuspecting public and to this day they make a good return on their investment.
Brands have value.
Smart investors don't buy a legendary brand like Hasselblad and kill it because they're not competitive in the quickly evolving market. Particularly when that brand has some of the best components ( and minds ) in the process of producing good color images that have served as a reference for others. A process they have been consistent with for years while sourcing sensors of varying brand and quality.
Nobody here knows how well Hasselblad is, or isn't doing in sales, profit or development of their next products. Until we read the next press release it's all speculation.
Kirk,
There may be a misunderstanding here. Hasselblad currently has the obsolescing H series SLR and the mirrorless XD in its product line. I am forecasting that the aging H cash-cow may be sent to the slaughterhouse, while the new and dynamic XD series will step forward and become the earner.
The forecast about the possible demise of the H model may be myopic as viewed from outside this forum, and has no real effect anymore on Hassy's health; however quite a few readers here happen to own that camera system.
As for the rest, I have been called an idiot quite a few times in my life. It hasn't killed me, and some of those times the person who qualified me was right. Sometimes I was.
Edmund
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There may be a misunderstanding here.
Hah! Yeah I sure read your post wrong. Deleting mine now.
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Hah! Yeah I sure read your post wrong. Deleting mine now.
Of course, all you say about rebranding is more than correct. A brand in itself is an asset, in fact an asset that is often easier to purchase fully grown than to build from scratch. "Luxury brand management" is the one business topic which students from all over the world come to learn here in Paris. Incidentally,, most of those students are female :)
Edmund
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It's very interesting to watch the tables turn the way they have.
To add interest to the discussion, I am blown away by how the film resurgence is taking hold. It's getting to the point where in something like fashion, there are more film photographers than digital. If you look somewhere like Art Partner which is one of the top two photographers agencies in the world and probably, currently, the most relevant, if you remove the two still life from the list (digital just aesthetically suits still life and product) you are left with 11 photographers. SEVEN of those eleven are FILM photographers. It's also interesting to note that only one of those eleven is still shooting Phase One. A few years back nearly all their roster was shooting Phase One.
What's also interesting is how the younger generation are rejecting digital for film. It's funny and ironic that the old school are now the digital shooters and the younger generations work on film is what is considered fresh.
So in more than one way the tables are really turning. Considering all the variables and the return of film, it's almost like a Monty Python movie, but I think on whole it represents a camera manufacturer industry out of touch with the times and their customers and all they want is their money. It seems like the only real thing they have left to market is 150MP - that represents a total lack of vision to me. Hasselblad, at least, has the older film backs to push but it strikes me as really quite odd that in this current climate no one is pushing a film/digital hybrid and the industry is being served by some exceptionally well built Pentax 67's and RZ's.
Otherwise, I think the MFD game is over, won by Fuji and I can't see how anyone can compete on this level of vision, innovation and price in the same package. It will be interesting to see how Hasselblad and Phase One navigate what is looking like a very bumpy future.
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I have to pause as I keep reading that DJI purchased a controlling interest in Hasselblad to improve their drones. So far that is not the case.
Tons of time were spent on the Hasselblad inside the Mavic Pro2 and it’s been anything but significant. Camera itself is less than stellar and compared to the Phantom 4 pro camera which has been around close to 2 years no competition. Yes it’s 20 MP but results are disappointing for stills as cameras have QA issues mainly due to decentered optical elements. Tons of issues on how DJI rolled out the high quality video segment. And overall less DR than the Phantom from the same chip. Yet a totally new processor supposedly was used.
And as for support, DJI has by far the worst I have seen.
However they own the consumer drone market so without serious competition I don’t see their model changing anytime soon.
Paul C
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if Fuji would have come out with the 50R first, I am not sure Hasselblad would even consider continuing with the X line....
the 100S should be a turning point, IBIS and PDAF with a 100mpix sensor, crazy fast chip and crazy good and inexpensive lenses....and a nice travel size 50R as back up....C1 color and workflow.....hard to beat....
DJI never got involved with Hasselblad to take it to the top of digital MF...they bought the brand for legitimacy with their drone business....i wonder if when/if they will come out with a DMF drone just to mess with phase....with new lenses announced, Hasselblad will have to come out with a X2D but i doubt it will be able to compete and even if it does on features, it won't on price....
but in the end the "old" A7RIII still is the better all around camera....nikon, canon and now panasonic are scrambling to catch up, fuji is really starting to lead the APC market as well, incl video....there is a reason why VW has a lot of brands sharing platforms and tech, upping the price with gloss and features.....
the biggest news for me is the software going into camera phones.....iphone XS, pixel 3.....the computing power and frame averaging is insane.....pixel 3 calculates 15 frames (before the shot is even taken!) into one pic....yes the sensor is tiny and the lenses are crap....but in the end it all comes down to how it turns out.....
sony and fuji are going ahead because they have the large market to spread R&D around, sensors are getting better but there are limits, AF is all about processing power and software now, lenses are as much about perfect manufacturing as they are about software lens correction and how the two provide a final result....
film has made a huge comeback, which is great, but a lot of it (especially in the lofty heights of Art Partner) is about a special something (also called dog and pony show) which years ago used to be the first digital cameras, then everybody had to have a phase (or hasselblad) back on set.....and in the end everything gets shot on canons (now sonys)......I am all for film but if you scan a 120 negative one anything less then the highest end drum scanner (which nobody does) you end up with a file inferior to a 2016 top end DSLR.....but that is not he point anyway, its about the process and honestly I think (especially in fashion) people love to shoot film again because you can't tether and you don't have everybody glued to the monitor analyzing every single frame.....its like in the old days, the photographer and the models in a dance.....and hey! its film! its cool!
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Heck most people don't need 33x44 to dump Phase One. The D850 is sufficient. Better in every regard except resolution which most of us don't need anyway
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"Better in every way except resolution." Doug I have to disagree hard here. I have a 850. I love it. It's better in MANY ways than my H setup. It's not better in color or sharpness though (or resolution).
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if Fuji would have come out with the 50R first, I am not sure Hasselblad would even consider continuing with the X line....
the 100S should be a turning point, IBIS and PDAF with a 100mpix sensor, crazy fast chip and crazy good and inexpensive lenses....and a nice travel size 50R as back up....C1 color and workflow.....hard to beat....
DJI never got involved with Hasselblad to take it to the top of digital MF...they bought the brand for legitimacy with their drone business....i wonder if when/if they will come out with a DMF drone just to mess with phase....with new lenses announced, Hasselblad will have to come out with a X2D but i doubt it will be able to compete and even if it does on features, it won't on price....
Hasselblad doesn't have to compete with Fuji at the lowest end of the market. It can continue to offer the X1D and cut the price to $5k but the lenses will still be way more expensive than the Fuji lenses. However, I think it can thrive by offering a new X2D that is distinctively different and "better" than the Fuji 100S at the $10k-$15K level. The X2D can be better designed ergonomically, it can have an elegantly simple and streamlined user interface, and it can surely be MUCH lighter and smaller than the Fuji 100S. It can be the anti-Japanese DSLR. If those are the "features" that someone wants and can afford it, they will pay the price premium. It happens all of the time with consumer goods. You just can't get your head around that because those aren't the features that matter to you, and you assume that everyone thinks like you. Price is NOT everything. It's only part of the equation. Looking at the Hasselblad X1D Facebook page, I am totally astonished at the number and types of photographers who have purchased an X1D and a range of lenses. I would never have expected it. Same with the Fuji GFX Facebook page.
As for DJI, it has APPARENTLY owned Hasselblad for less than 2 years. It seems folly to me to say what DJI will do with Hasselblad at this point. Who knows? Not me. Not you. Wait another year or two. Then we will have a better idea.
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...but the lenses will still be way more expensive than the Fuji lenses.
Hasselblad lenses will always be more expensive because they contain shutters.
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I have to pause as I keep reading that DJI purchased a controlling interest in Hasselblad to improve their drones. So far that is not the case.
Tons of time were spent on the Hasselblad inside the Mavic Pro2 and it’s been anything but significant. Camera itself is less than stellar and compared to the Phantom 4 pro camera which has been around close to 2 years no competition. Yes it’s 20 MP but results are disappointing for stills as cameras have QA issues mainly due to decentered optical elements. Tons of issues on how DJI rolled out the high quality video segment. And overall less DR than the Phantom from the same chip. Yet a totally new processor supposedly was used.
And as for support, DJI has by far the worst I have seen.
However they own the consumer drone market so without serious competition I don’t see their model changing anytime soon.
Paul C
1. You are conflating intention with execution. Just because DJI has not yet capitalized effectively on Hasselblad's capabilities to improve its drones doesn't mean that was not its intention.
2. My understanding is that Hasselblad's only involvement in the Hasselblad camera on the Mavic 2 was to develop the color pipeline. The hardware side of it was DJI.
3. I have no reason to doubt your comments about DJI's service. I am not surprised. This is a mass market consumer electronics device. No Doug or Steve on the other end of the line. However, that does not detract from the facts that DJI has very deep pockets and has achieved an extraordinary level of dominance in what should be a crowded space. I wouldn't underestimate them.
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Hasselblad lenses will always be more expensive because they contain shutters.
It's also that they are manufactured by a third party, Nittoh. Two separate profit centers to feed!
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I have to agree with Doug Levy. As much as I love my 850 it's not even close for me. I will actually sell my 850 as the Z7 is adequate for backup to my XF100. I do agree most people don't need that kind of resolution and that the 850 can serve most people perfectly well. It's an exceptional camera.
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Hasselblad doesn't have to compete with Fuji at the lowest end of the market. It can continue to offer the X1D and cut the price to $5k but the lenses will still be way more expensive than the Fuji lenses. However, I think it can thrive by offering a new X2D that is distinctively different and "better" than the Fuji 100S at the $10k-$15K level. The X2D can be better designed ergonomically, it can have an elegantly simple and streamlined user interface, and it can surely be MUCH lighter and smaller than the Fuji 100S. It can be the anti-Japanese DSLR. If those are the "features" that someone wants and can afford it, they will pay the price premium. It happens all of the time with consumer goods. You just can't get your head around that because those aren't the features that matter to you, and you assume that everyone thinks like you. Price is NOT everything. It's only part of the equation. Looking at the Hasselblad X1D Facebook page, I am totally astonished at the number and types of photographers who have purchased an X1D and a range of lenses. I would never have expected it. Same with the Fuji GFX Facebook page.
As for DJI, it has APPARENTLY owned Hasselblad for less than 2 years. It seems folly to me to say what DJI will do with Hasselblad at this point. Who knows? Not me. Not you. Wait another year or two. Then we will have a better idea.
this is no lowest level market, there are no more levels left....it is what is left of the DMF market and things have settled at 33x44....and unless pentax makes a miraculous comeback, its fuji vs hasselblad....there is a top, top end DMF market which is in a completely different sphere....
I was thinking of what things would look like now if Fuji would have come out with the 50R first and how the market would have reacted to it vs X1D...the 50s got a lot of criticism for size, weight and its looks.....the 50R is very much like the X1D (which is a very pretty and compact camera)....i completely understand why a lot of people went with the X1D over the 50S, but if the 50R would have been in its place.....
the other criticism was the "non professional" workflow of LR .....C1 now supports the fujis (finally) which does not just bring another option to the table but arguably the best color tech and most experience with these sensors.....
price is just one factor, but sony and nikon are pushing into that DMF level in terms of IQ but easily winning in terms of size, weight and function as well as price....
the 100S is a totally different animal, i doubt Hasselblad will have IBIS, maybe they will have PDAF? (not sure where they would get the tech?), maybe they can cram the 100mpix sensor into a much smaller body, not sure what the point really would be or (again) the price?
buy that time sony will be out with a A7RIV ? which will be smaller, lighter, faster and very, very, very close in IQ with IBIS, PDAF.....what i mean is that for anyone looking for top IQ in a super compact package, the sonys and nikons (and panasonics?) will be right there....unless one wants a timeless piece of equipment with european history and pedigree (even if it is chinese all around, which does not bother me one bit btw)
it looks to me that Phase has conceded the 33x44 market and by supporting fuji they pushed Hasselblad into an area which is owned buy Leica right now....its own Stores, a lifestyle brand that does not compete with the rest of the market in features or function or price....Leica is handling is handling it beautifully, I love what they are doing, I am amazed that they just announced another S body....power to them....but what a 50R plus lens costs less (and looks better IMO) then one lens....AND produces better IQ (sorry, it does) you are playing in your own league.....
the toughest part for Hasselblad now is not which camera to make and how and how much to charge for it, it is that phase legitimized the Fuji 33x44 systems as professional......it will be hard for them to argue their way out of that one....they can bring up hasselblad colors but phase still is the industry standard.....especially as they are now the only top high end of the market and justifying it with superior color....
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Hasselblad doesn't have to compete with Fuji at the lowest end of the market. ...
As for DJI, it has APPARENTLY owned Hasselblad for less than 2 years. It seems folly to me to say what DJI will do with Hasselblad at this point. Who knows? Not me. Not you. Wait another year or two. Then we will have a better idea.
Absolutely not to compete for crumbs. That is the way of death. You are competing with Canon and Nikon then.
A lot will also buy an X1D just as a backup camera for a H6D. I think Hasselblad is looking pretty good.
With DJI, apparently a lot.
Hasselblad has made aerial cameras for years.
https://youtu.be/-gMk5IojGfw
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Hasselblad lenses will always be more expensive because they contain shutters.
And for some of us the value of a leaf shutter is completely worth the extra cost. I have 2 projects coming up with products/people/materials being shot both in the studio and in mixed light location sets. The potential to keep a consistent look and color buy working with the leaf shutter lens/camera is key.
What percentage of the market has the same need I don't know.
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And for some of us the value of a leaf shutter is completely worth the extra cost. I have 2 projects coming up with products/people/materials being shot both in the studio and in mixed light location sets. The potential to keep a consistent look and color buy working with the leaf shutter lens/camera is key.
What percentage of the market has the same need I don't know.
Can't the Hasselblad leaf lenses simply be used on the Fuji camera using the Fuji adapter?
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Can't the Hasselblad leaf lenses simply be used on the Fuji camera using the Fuji adapter?
I don't think that the adapter will trigger the leaf shutter...
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.... also no autofocus :(
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If you buy the one made by Fuji, the specs list support for electronic aperture control, 1/800 flash sync, etc
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1311713-REG/fujifilm_16540698_h_mount_adapter_g.html
And it appears specific lenses have been tested for aperture control by Fuji:
http://www.fujifilm.com/support/digital_cameras/compatibility/mountadapter/
AF, alas, does not work, so they are MF lenses...
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Can't the Hasselblad leaf lenses simply be used on the Fuji camera using the Fuji adapter?
No..... FFD is deeper on the Fuji. Hassy X1D lenses would not be able to reach infinity.
Victor
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Stated adapter was designed for the older Hasselblad MF lenses built around a optical viewfinder.
Paul C
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Old lenses designed for mirror cameras mounted with adapters on new mirrorless cameras is not a good idea. New lens designs are necessary to achieve the full optical potential.
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Old lenses designed for mirror cameras mounted with adapters on new mirrorless cameras is not a good idea. New lens designs are necessary to achieve the full optical potential.
We're seeing some really interesting third-party lenses for Fuji MF. Here is a Mitakon 65mm F1.4. The samples look gorgeous. Me want!!!!
https://fujiaddict.com/2018/10/12/mitakon-zhongyi-speedmaster-65mm-f-1-4-for-fujifilm-gfx/
Edmund
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There are more here...
https://www.facebook.com/hasegawahaseo/photos/a.396872240455546/1190730917736337/?type=3&theater
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There are more here...
https://www.facebook.com/hasegawahaseo/photos/a.396872240455546/1190730917736337/?type=3&theater
I really like that shot. I think I'm in love with this lens.
Edmund
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> (UPD. And The WINNAH is FUUUJIIII !!! )
The desperation people go to justify their choices.
Meanwhile the rest of us just keep making money with ours.
(Please don't change the name of the post as it then becomes less useful than was.)
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> (UPD. And The WINNAH is FUUUJIIII !!! )
The desperation people go to justify their choices.
Meanwhile the rest of us just keep making money with ours.
(Please don't change the name of the post as it then becomes less useful than was.)
- I don't think GAS needs justification - it's an addiction.
- Editorial choice. This thread is now for new rumors, and the UPD field reflects material added into the top post, which tends to correlate to stuff discussed in the latest contributions.
- One should be able to profit from this thread by looking at the material at top, and then jumping to the last. Not that I think much profit can be accrued from reading rumors about gear, as you remark.
Edmund
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We're seeing some really interesting third-party lenses for Fuji MF. Here is a Mitakon 65mm F1.4. The samples look gorgeous. Me want!!!!
https://fujiaddict.com/2018/10/12/mitakon-zhongyi-speedmaster-65mm-f-1-4-for-fujifilm-gfx/
Edmund
Has anyone seen any indication about pricing and availability for the 65mm/1.4?
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That Mikaton 65mm 1.4 looks pretty damn good.
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"Better in every way except resolution." Doug I have to disagree hard here. I have a 850. I love it. It's better in MANY ways than my H setup. It's not better in color or sharpness though (or resolution).
And Puny viewfinder, and some like the bigger camera size, Trufocus, 16bit, the file quality in post etc etc etc
But the Nikon D850 is an exceptional camera. I wouldn't say it replaces medium format and I wouldn't say it was the right tool for every job, and that's just the same for Medium Format. I would use it to supplement Medium Format though.
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When on earth is Phase One going to bring out a fast lens? An 80mm f2 or something.
It's very long overdue.
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That dof would be impossibly small, and suuuuuuuuper hard to focus wide with the current systems and resolution. And wouldn't that lens be massive?
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All the existing f2 medium format lenses are not massive.
The DOF would be very small but it would be fine for those that use that sort of thing in their work. There are lenses with even less DOF out there.
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You're probably right. I just know how difficult is is to achieve critical sharpness with my 80 at 2.8.
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You're probably right. I just know how difficult is is to achieve critical sharpness with my 80 at 2.8.
Absolutely. Leave the 80 F2.0 lenses to cameras like the Contax and the 80 F1.9 to the Hasselblad XD, cameras that were designed for amateur photographers who need decent AF while real photographers use F8.
Edmund
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All the existing f2 medium format lenses are not massive.
The DOF would be very small but it would be fine for those that use that sort of thing in their work. There are lenses with even less DOF out there.
With the respect to the Contax Zeiss Planar (which I like a lot, even doing crazy things like this: https://500px.com/photo/264337919 ), I must tell, that that lens is not up to the standards of the Schneider-Kreuznach criterion, which all new Phase One lens follows. Having able to achieve the required sharpness, resolution, minimal aberrations, one would need a huge glass (I'm thinking about the 150/2.8 BR), which would not be well received by the most of the photographers.
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Absolutely. Leave the 80 F2.0 lenses to cameras like the Contax and the 80 F1.9 to the Hasselblad XD, cameras that were designed for amateur photographers who need decent AF while real photographers use F8.
Edmund
LOL. You are joking, right? Surely. You don't normally make such an ignorant comment.
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With the respect to the Contax Zeiss Planar (which I like a lot, even doing crazy things like this: https://500px.com/photo/264337919 ), I must tell, that that lens is not up to the standards of the Schneider-Kreuznach criterion, which all new Phase One lens follows. Having able to achieve the required sharpness, resolution, minimal aberrations, one would need a huge glass (I'm thinking about the 150/2.8 BR), which would not be well received by the most of the photographers.
Take a look at the Hasselblad 80mm though. It looks well corrected and it's not enormous. I don't think the larger sensor coverage is going to make it exponentially larger. Given the size of the XF it would be well balanced, too.
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Hi,
Having magnified live view it would not be difficult, if the lens can achieve critical sharpness at f/2.8, that is.
No joke here, many lenses have quite fuzzy focus in magnified live view.
Best regards
Erik
You're probably right. I just know how difficult is is to achieve critical sharpness with my 80 at 2.8.
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There is an interview up on dpreview, summarised on FujiAddict.
https://fujiaddict.com/2018/10/23/dpreview-fujifilm-interview-we-will-never-go-full-frame-interchangeable-instax-is-a-possibility-and-much-more/
We learn the 50R is designed for one-handed use, users are coming in from other systems not upgrading from Fuji APS-C, the 100 will have a much faster viewfinder, and IBIS eats a lot of power
Also Fuji is doing everything they can to lure videographers to try the MF look. .
Edmund
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I hope they will include RAW video like the hasselblad and the RED Cameras. The hasselblad was a nice try but the sensor is too slow for video (rolling shutter). For 10.000$ this will be in the upper video segment where raw is mandatory (raw is easy to do, and with the correct compression you can even use it on SD cards, look at the hacked canons)
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I hope they will include RAW video like the hasselblad and the RED Cameras. The hasselblad was a nice try but the sensor is too slow for video (rolling shutter). For 10.000$ this will be in the upper video segment where raw is mandatory (raw is easy to do, and with the correct compression you can even use it on SD cards, look at the hacked canons)
Blackmagic proved you can make a very good living out of affordable Raw video :)
My best guess is that at this stage Fuji will supply some high-speed output to an external recorder - which is perfectly sufficient for "pro" applications in that price bracket.
And Fuji will probably reuse whatever they develop for the mass-market side of things.
Apart from sensor size, it's unclear exactly what added value the GFX series would bring to the video table. The interview says the new sensor is much faster.
Edmund
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Take a look at the Hasselblad 80mm though. It looks well corrected and it's not enormous. I don't think the larger sensor coverage is going to make it exponentially larger. Given the size of the XF it would be well balanced, too.
If you look up the MTF and Transmittance chart of that lens ( Official data sheet (https://hasselblad-com.cdn.prismic.io/hasselblad-com%2Fabca5296-95e5-406f-915d-fcce53ca28f3_xcd80+datasheet+uk+180926.pdf) ), you would see that it is not tack-sharp wide open, and it has quite visible vignetting. That would quite possibly prevent a hypothetical 80/2 to be called Schneider Kreuznach.
On the other hand there would be possible to design a 80/2 lens which satisfies the SK requirements, but that would be humongous.
Just to be able to imagine the size increase I took a snapshot of the two 150 lens available today (both satisfying the SK requirement). Note, that the 150/3.5 is not a BR, but it is the same size, and also please note that the difference between those two lenses are less than one stop. (I hope the attachment will magically show up)
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So it turns out that phase contrast AF on the main sensor is not so easy
https://www.dpreview.com/articles/2670904610/five-ways-nikon-could-improve-the-z7?utm_source=self-desktop&utm_medium=marquee&utm_campaign=traffic_source
Which may be why we are not seeing an announcement for a 100MP Hassy mirrorless. XD2.
Obviously, Sony camera corp has a lot of secret sauce concerning AF which they keep to themselves, even while Sony semiconductor sells sensors to every vendor.
Edmund
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So it turns out that phase contrast AF on the main sensor is not so easy
https://www.dpreview.com/articles/2670904610/five-ways-nikon-could-improve-the-z7?utm_source=self-desktop&utm_medium=marquee&utm_campaign=traffic_source
Sony (A7RIII) and Fuji (X-T3) seem to have no problems to use PDAF very effectively with Sony BSI sensors, so let's hope Fuji succeeds with the GFX100 in the same way.
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Sony (A7RIII) and Fuji (X-T3) seem to have no problems to use PDAF very effectively with Sony BSI sensors, so let's hope Fuji succeeds with the GFX100 in the same way.
We will see how it goes - the larger cameras get the best features after the smaller ones which get them well after the cellphones.
One problem is that companies like Nikon and Canon probably have their own code, tuned for their own historical PDAF sensors, possibly with the original engineers already kicked upstairs or retired.
Modding the code to work with a new sensor technology may be harder than starting from scratch, which is presumably what we see with Sony and Fuji.
IN ANY CASE THE DPREVIEW ARTICLE IS A TERRIBLE INDICTMENT OF THE CURRENT NIKON MIRROLESS.. I've never seen dpreview be so nasty about a product, they almost red-stamped "DOES NOT WORK" on the Z.
Edmund
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There has been much enthusiasm about the downward price trend with Fujifilm GFX bodies in 44x33mm format, so I have some slightly skeptical thoughts. (About pricing, not the desirability of the products.)
The 50MP sensor used is relatively ancient and now more or less discontinued; it was the first CMOS sensor in a format larger than 36x24, arrived in the Phase One IQ250 and Hasselblad H5D-50c in March 2014 and the Pentax 645Z that April, and the latest Sony product lists drop it (and its 100MP 54x40mm big brother) in favor of the new 100MP 44x33 and 150MP 54x40 sensors. Indeed this sensor was already "old tech" by the time that Fujifilm and Hasselblad use in it their first EVF cameras. One sign of age is its lack of PDAF ability; a significant liability in a "live-view only" camera these days.
Note also the far higher price (around US$10,000) indicated for Fujifilm's forthcoming model, which will be the first "medium format" EVF camera using an "up to date" sensor, Sony's 100MP 44x33. That price is significantly more that the previous flagship of the GFX system, the 50R; such a price increase is a bit unusual for a new model in the same format.
So, my slightly skeptical thoughts:
- Sony has paid off the fixed costs (R&D, production line setup etc.) on that 50MP sensor, and so is now selling it at close to unit production cost as it approaches end-of-life.
- Fujifilm [and to some extent Hasselblad] are using those "discounted" sensors and also selling their new EVF bodies at low margins (or even at a loss) to build market share and undermine competitors (Phase One in particular). Remember that Sony lost money on DSLRs for some years; it is a rather common strategy for market insurgents.
- US$10,000 might be a better indication of future pricing for a 44x33 camera with an up-to-date sensor that has a clear resolution advantage over smaller formats; maybe down to US$8,000 for an entry-level model like a future "GFX 100R".
This would still be a big step forward for affordable and flexible systems in a format larger than 36x24, giving them a chance to be far more widely used than MF DSLRs, but for context, high resolution EVF cameras in 36x24mm are looking to cost around US$3,000–4,000 and with lower resolution entry-level 36x24 models at around US$2,000.
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BJL
Of course I agree with all you say, but
1. using old tech made on a on obsolete fab line has been a recipe for cheap semiconductor prices for years. In fact most of the electronics industry works on microprocessors that cost the price of sand precisely because they are made on old fabs with high yields. As far as I know.
2. Yields on the large silicon will keep pushing MF cheaper, because the yield on large chips keeps improving.
Edmund
There has been much enthusiasm about the downward price trend with Fujifilm GFX bodies in 44x33mm format, so I have some slightly skeptical thoughts. (About pricing, not the desirability of the products.)
The 50MP sensor used is relatively ancient and now more or less discontinued; it was the first CMOS sensor in a format larger than 36x24, arrived in the Phase One IQ250 and Hasselblad H5D-50c in March 2014 and the Pentax 645Z that April, and the latest Sony product lists drop it (and its 100MP 54x40mm big brother) in favor of the new 100MP 44x33 and 150MP 54x40 sensors. Indeed this sensor was already "old tech" by the time that Fujifilm and Hasselblad use in it their first EVF cameras. One sign of age is its lack of PDAF ability; a significant liability in a "live-view only" camera these days.
Note also the far higher price (around US$10,000) indicated for Fujifilm's forthcoming model, which will be the first "medium format" EVF camera using an "up to date" sensor, Sony's 100MP 44x33. That price is significantly more that the previous flagship of the GFX system, the 50R; such a price increase is a bit unusual for a new model in the same format.
So, my slightly skeptical thoughts:
- Sony has paid off the fixed costs (R&D, production line setup etc.) on that 50MP sensor, and so is now selling it at close to unit production cost as it approaches end-of-life.
- Fujifilm [and to some extent Hasselblad] are using those "discounted" sensors and also selling their new EVF bodies at low margins (or even at a loss) to build market share and undermine competitors (Phase One in particular). Remember that Sony lost money on DSLRs for some years; it is a rather common strategy for market insurgents.
- US$10,000 might be a better indication of future pricing for a 44x33 camera with an up-to-date sensor that has a clear resolution advantage over smaller formats; maybe down to US$8,000 for an entry-level model like a future "GFX 100R".
This would still be a big step forward for affordable and flexible systems in a format larger than 36x24, giving them a chance to be far more widely used than MF DSLRs, but for context, high resolution EVF cameras in 36x24mm are looking to cost around US$3,000–4,000 and with lower resolution entry-level 36x24 models at around US$2,000.
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There’s a post up on Fujiaddict.com where you can see the 100 body in a glass case, and we get told that AF uses the T-3 focus processor “which cost millions”. Also the 50 pancake.
I guess we now know why no Hassy 100Mp: They can’t do full-sensor PDAF with their existing electronics platform. Or rather, they can only provide very limited functionality.
The smart thing at this point would be for Hassy to get merged into a company that has a larger market and an existing platform, eg.Pentax or Sony or even Nikon, although Nikon seem to have mirrorless AF issues too.
Edmund
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I guess we now know why no Hassy 100Mp: They can’t do full-sensor PDAF with their existing electronics platform.
You have a good point; a lot of the advancements in camera technology develop from the bottom up, due to the far larger revenues and profits that those far higher volume cameras typically produce. For example, Pentax bought multi-point AF to the medium format world, and everything from electronic sensors to CMOS sensors to Live View to IBIS have gone in that direction — and now of course the latest advances in computational photography. (So why exactly would any mainstream camera maker want to cut themselves of from the ILC innovation hot-bed of MFT & APC-C format, and become hampered in the way the medium format-only companies are?!) Extrapolating, maybe Apple, Samsung or Google would be the most beneficial for Hasselbad or Phase One! — but maybe an ILC maker is a more likely partner.
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I think Hassybwill just go for a less featured focus implementation initially; later Sony will probably sell that capability in the form of a chip set. Note that Nikon is clearly having serious issues with AF on the Z series.
Edmund
You have a good point; a lot of the advancements in camera technology develop from the bottom up, due to the far larger revenues and profits that those far higher volume cameras typically produce. For example, Pentax bought multi-point AF to the medium format world, and everything from electronic sensors to CMOS sensors to Live View to IBIS have gone in that direction — and now of course the latest advances in computational photography. (So why exactly would any mainstream camera maker want to cut themselves of from the ILC innovation hot-bed of MFT & APC-C format, and become hampered in the way the medium format-only companies are?!) Extrapolating, maybe Apple, Samsung or Google would be the most beneficial for Hasselbad or Phase One! — but maybe an ILC maker is a more likely partner.
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The 50R is going on sale in a month.
I hear rumors of a possible lower price of the Hassy X1D.
Edmund
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Note that Nikon is clearly having serious issues with AF on the Z series.
I guess it depends on what you call serious issues. I'd give both kidneys to have my H6D-100c focus' performance to reach 25% of what the Z7 can do. ;D
The Z7 is at least as good as the previous generation of Sony mirrorless that most users were telling us is DSLR performance. ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
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The 50R is going on sale in a month.
I hear rumors of a possible lower price of the Hassy X1D.
GFXR50 Introductory prices (https://fujiaddict.com/2018/10/28/fujifilm-sunday-savings-xf-gf-lens-savings-and-x-t2-x-pro2-savings-ending-november-3rd/)end November 3rd. Though I wouldn't be surprised if these prices or even lower return for at least the holidays.
If the price on the X1D does in fact go down that would be very compelling ! I do love leaf shutters after 30+ years of using them ;D
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I guess it depends on what you call serious issues. I'd give both kidneys to have my H6D-100c focus' performance to reach 25% of what the Z7 can do. ;D
The Z7 is at least as good as the previous generation of Sony mirrorless that most users were telling us is DSLR performance. ;)
Cheers,
Bernard
Bernard,
You might be right here the Nikon may be subject to a chip hardware issue with only Sony having access to the latest sensor. In which case the Fuji might enjoy the same -not so severe- problems.
However that is still the most negative Nikon review I have ever seen over there, so I suspect the issues are really not minor compared to a pro-grade 35mm.
Edmund
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GFXR50 Introductory prices (https://fujiaddict.com/2018/10/28/fujifilm-sunday-savings-xf-gf-lens-savings-and-x-t2-x-pro2-savings-ending-november-3rd/)end November 3rd. Though I wouldn't be surprised if these prices or even lower return for at least the holidays.
If the price on the X1D does in fact go down that would be very compelling ! I do love leaf shutters after 30+ years of using them ;D
The silence from Hassy continues,to be deafening, while some really mouthwatering imagery from the 80 1.9 has gone up on dpreview.
Edmund
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I think the 100 and 150Mp Sensors are currently the newest ones Sony developed. Certainly better than anything they are using themself. I expect the new a9r to have the pixel number increases quite a bit to match the same pixel size they use for both of the medium format sensors.
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The silence from Hassy continues,to be deafening, while some really mouthwatering imagery from the 80 1.9 has gone up on dpreview.
Edmund
You do know that actions speak louder than words.
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You do know that actions speak louder than words.
You do see that I'm reporting all sides of the story :)
Edmund
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I think the 100 and 150Mp Sensors are currently the newest ones Sony developed. Certainly better than anything they are using themself. I expect the new a9r to have the pixel number increases quite a bit to match the same pixel size they use for both of the medium format sensors.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Actually, speaking just for myself I disagree. I think the dev work on these is at least 3 years old. I'd expect the most current tech to be in the phone sensors which is the one single market which Sony Semi cannot afford to ignore.
Also, pixel density is one thing and the various focus aids for PDAF are another - this is a codesign between the hardware and the software that exploits the hardware outputs, and it is all time and geometry dependent.
In 35mm frame rate is important, and all the manufacturers need to decide how much processing bandwidth and RAM they want to throw into the box to store and preprocess sensor output into Raw files and write to flash. And that costs money and is probably as much responsible for what you see in the market as the ultimate feature size at which sensor pixels can be fabricated.
Edmund
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Last friday i have «played» with the GFX 50r. As you can see on the picture below, the 50r has about the same size as the 50s.
Now the difference is not only the price - there are less features with a 50r. If you can live with it OK, but there are some
features the 50s have which i would not want to miss.
(http://funkyimg.com/i/2MG3w.jpg) (http://funkyimg.com/view/2MG3w)
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You do see that I'm reporting all sides of the story :)
Actually, you are more hypothesizing than reporting.
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Actually, you are more hypothesizing than reporting.
How could I disagree? :)
That's why the thread is called "Rumors".
Edmund
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You do see that I'm reporting all sides of the story :)
Actually, you are more hypothesizing than reporting.
How could I disagree? :)
That's why the thread is called "Rumors".
A rumor is usually a sound coming from more than one mouth (not counting the internet echo chamber effect); let's call some of your posts speculations/provocations, and protect the good name of reputable rumors!
Also, you said "reporting", which is an even higher claim than "rumor"!
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A rumor is usually a sound coming from more than one mouth (not counting the internet echo chamber effect); let's call some of your posts speculations/provocations, and protect the good name of reputable rumors!
Also, you said "reporting", which is an even higher claim than "rumor"!
I'm sure you're right. Frankly I almost think this thread has just about served its purpose and might be archived - were it not for the fact that I still feel that there is another shoe due to drop from Hasselblad.
Frankly I feel sad - not a single entity approached me with a view to disseminating biased copy. Such a blow to my narcissism!
Edmund