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Author Topic: After Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. And The WINNAH is FUUUJIIII !!! )  (Read 56305 times)

narikin

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Re: Photokina rumor and announcement Medium Format thread (UPDATING)
« Reply #60 on: August 30, 2018, 06:30:40 pm »

1) Two standard lenses: SK BR 80mm vs Fuji GF 63mm: the Fuji starts at 4755/3744 lines per picture height in the centre/corner at f2.8 and improves to 5064/3744 at f4. The SK starts at 4539/3970 lines at f/2.8 and improves to 4809/4650 at f4.

Yeah, unfortunately the SK BR 80mm is one of the weakest lenses in Phase's line. (odd considering it is the 'standard' lens) The redesign from the prior Phase One/Mamiya 'D' 80mm lens, to make room for the Leaf Shutter, compromised it's performance. I own both and would never use the LS BR for anything unless I really must have an LS, which is basically never, in my case. It's ok, don't get me wrong, but the old 'D' is much sharper.

We also must reiterate the fact that the bigger the image circle, the greater the demands on the lens designer/manufacturer. It's one thing to hit a high resolution for FF 35mm, another level to achieve that for Crop MF, and an even higher level again to stretch that to Full Frame MF.

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eronald

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Re: Photokina rumor and announcement Medium Format thread (UPDATING)
« Reply #61 on: August 30, 2018, 08:31:13 pm »

Update - according to the Stefan this is old news, and shipping.

 For me it's the Fuji announcement of the show, and it's already happened: Pros are going to want that for product shots and architecture, and they're all gonna get it; 100MP you don't need but SHIFT, now that is really really useful.

- Announced:  Hartblei Fuji GFX DRS adapter for Canon tilt/shift lenses. This looks like it might turn the GFX into a workhorse for product and architecture.

http://www.hartblei.de/en/whatsnew.htm
HCam DRS Dual Rotation Shifter EOS to Fuji GFX, shown here with the new Canon TS-E Macro or a second TS adapter for either M645, P645/67,
« Last Edit: August 31, 2018, 06:17:07 am by eronald »
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Stefan.Steib

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Re: Photokina rumor and announcement Medium Format thread (UPDATING)
« Reply #62 on: August 31, 2018, 03:07:39 am »

The DRS is on sale already over half a year. We have stock and can ship short term.
Here in combination with a Mirex M645 to EOS TS adapter = Dual shift AND Tilt.

Greetings from Germany
Stefan
« Last Edit: August 31, 2018, 03:13:16 am by Stefan.Steib »
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eronald

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Re: Photokina rumor and announcement Medium Format thread (UPDATING)
« Reply #63 on: September 01, 2018, 08:05:05 pm »

First leaked photos of Fuji GFX 50R are surfacing, release date September 23, POSSIBLY street price of $3-$4K at launch.

https://fujiaddict.com/2018/09/01/first-fujifilm-gfx-50r-photo-and-release-dates/

Hassy won’t like this, especially the pricing. If Fuji sells too many of these, the GFR, GFX and normal lenses will be dirt cheap on the used market and really start chewing into their sales. Do I need a $10K X1D-100 if I can get a used GFR-50 with lens for $2K?

Edmund
« Last Edit: September 01, 2018, 09:08:43 pm by eronald »
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ErikKaffehr

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Phase may release a 100 MP on 44x33
« Reply #64 on: September 02, 2018, 01:44:10 am »

Hi Edmund,

We don't know if Phase will release 100MP on 44x33. Well, they already have it on an aerial photography device, but not in a camera intended for conventional photography.

No one else has released a 100 MP 44x33 camera, yet. May be chips are not really available yet.

It is a decent speculation that Phase One tries to work within a high price nische. I don't see them competing with say Fuji GFX 100s or next generation X1D.

What I think sets the GFX and the X1D apart is that they are designed around the 44x33 sensor size. That means lenses optimized for the sensor and both firms optimised their systems 100MP.

Best regards
Erik
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eronald

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Re: Phase may release a 100 MP on 44x33
« Reply #65 on: September 02, 2018, 06:06:36 am »

Hi Edmund,

We don't know if Phase will release 100MP on 44x33. Well, they already have it on an aerial photography device, but not in a camera intended for conventional photography.

No one else has released a 100 MP 44x33 camera, yet. May be chips are not really available yet.

It is a decent speculation that Phase One tries to work within a high price nische. I don't see them competing with say Fuji GFX 100s or next generation X1D.

What I think sets the GFX and the X1D apart is that they are designed around the 44x33 sensor size. That means lenses optimized for the sensor and both firms optimised their systems 100MP.

Best regards
Erik

Erik,

I believe Phase have stated no more crop frame, at least for IQ.
Of course, never say never.

In my view, Hasselblad and Phase are now on a collision course. Before, Hassy had a portable stylish camera, and Fuji a heavy one, now Fuji will have a lighter model that can work well without a tripod.

My belief is that Fuji will bring out a full-frame camera at the next generation, but keep the light, cheap rangefinder model

Edmund
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eronald

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Re: Phase may release a 100 MP on 44x33
« Reply #66 on: September 02, 2018, 06:53:22 am »


This is an unfortunate time to be Hassy. Just when they had a camera that everyone liked, they get a cut-price competitor with the GFX 50R.

Maybe DJI will resort to selling at cost or manufacturing in China in order to save the day.

The real problem is that all these cameras are now Sony lensboxes - they can only differentiate themselves with physical design, and try and keep their customers locked in via their lensmount. Phase is using software and trade-in lockin, which works a bit better.

Edmund




Erik,

I believe Phase have stated no more crop frame, at least for IQ.
Of course, never say never.

In my view, Hasselblad and Phase are now on a collision course. Before, Hassy had a portable stylish camera, and Fuji a heavy one, now Fuji will have a lighter model that can work well without a tripod.

My belief is that Fuji will bring out a full-frame camera at the next generation, but keep the light, cheap rangefinder model

Edmund
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BJL

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Edmund, in what sense is the Fujifilm G system a “crop” or not “full frame”, given that the smaller 36x24 systems are “full frame”? With the rise of EVF camera systems, some with their own all-new lens systems, I think it’s time to describe them by what they are, not relative to different technologies from the past.
(Actually “medium format” is another anachronistic comparison)

Fujifilm has a 44x33 format EVF camera system.
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landscapephoto

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Re: Phase may release a 100 MP on 44x33
« Reply #68 on: September 02, 2018, 10:04:24 am »

This is an unfortunate time to be Hassy.

Is it a fortunate time to be an armchair analyst?  8)
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eronald

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Edmund, in what sense is the Fujifilm G system a “crop” or not “full frame”, given that the smaller 36x24 systems are “full frame”? With the rise of EVF camera systems, some with their own all-new lens systems, I think it’s time to describe them by what they are, not relative to different technologies from the past.
(Actually “medium format” is another anachronistic comparison)

Fujifilm has a 44x33 format EVF camera system.

BJL you are right, it’s an anachronistic historical name of course.

Most of the world’s scientists use metric because it is easy for computation, but the US still uses inches and pounds even for engineering and construction because people feel more comfortable with historical measure systems.

Edmund
« Last Edit: September 02, 2018, 01:31:53 pm by eronald »
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eronald

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Re: Phase may release a 100 MP on 44x33
« Reply #70 on: September 02, 2018, 01:20:07 pm »

Is it a fortunate time to be an armchair analyst?  8)

No, it is a very bad time to be a net writer, because it is very hard to monetize one’s content adequately. A few years ago you could just get a job as a journalist, now as a blogger I guess you need business skills. Like the Kardashians.

I’m a UK NUJ member. When I was younger I got fired occasionnally for being a nuisance; however my last 3 press employers simply went out of business. The digital revolution killed Kodak, and the Internet business model also killed much of news photography and paid journalism because press companies were bad at monetization.

People still read what bloggers write, but in the end the advertising money mostly goes to Google.

If you are unhappy with what I write, pay me to do more research, or read someone else who does it better for the same price you offer.  When it comes to medium format, this forum hosts some very knowledgable writing by well-known expert Doug Peterson whose sources outrank mine by far, and who is even a genuine art photographer in his spare time.

 :P

Edmund

« Last Edit: September 02, 2018, 01:57:27 pm by eronald »
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heinrichvoelkel

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Re: Photokina rumor and announcement Medium Format thread (UPDATING)
« Reply #71 on: September 02, 2018, 04:08:30 pm »

Yes, these are sample prices.
What they should do is ask Sony for an "engineering grade sample" of the sensor which is a chip that has some imaging defects but is functional.
AFAIK these are handed out for almost nothing.

Edmund

I will forward this, thanks a lot
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BJL

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Phase One may release a 100 MP on 44x33 — in a new EVF system
« Reply #72 on: September 02, 2018, 05:15:48 pm »

I believe Phase have stated no more crop frame, at least for IQ.
Of course, never say never.
I agree with that—including your use of "crop" with reference to IQ! That is valid when referring to a system of bodies and lenses designed around roughly the 56x42mm of "645" film format.

So to repeat, I expect Phase One will keep to its new "no crop" policy, and indeed that there will be no new crop bodies or backs from any maker beyond maybe a few more 44x33mm backs for Hasselblad's H, while it weans 44x33 customers onto the X system. But there just _might_ be a new Phase One EVF camera system with bodies and lenses designed around the 44x33mm format: Fujifilm and Hasselblad seem set to drive up volume for sensors in that format, improving its economies of scale and thus its cost advantage over 54x40.
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faberryman

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Re: Phase One may release a 100 MP on 44x33 — in a new EVF system
« Reply #73 on: September 02, 2018, 06:15:42 pm »

I agree with that—including your use of "crop" with reference to IQ! That is valid when referring to a system of bodies and lenses designed around roughly the 56x42mm of "645" film format.
645 is cropped medium format, so this "no crop" policy is sort of disingenuous anyway.
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BJL

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Re: Phase One may release a 100 MP on 44x33 — in a new EVF system
« Reply #74 on: September 02, 2018, 06:25:12 pm »

645 is cropped medium format, so this "no crop" policy is sort of disingenuous anyway.
I guess you did not read my previous posts: "crop" only legitimately applies to the situation where the sensor size imposes a crop on the lens system—as with early DSLRs using lenses for 36x24mm film format but only a 24x16mm sensor, or those DMF products that (still today) use lenses designed for 645 or 6x6 format with smaller sensor formats like 36x36mm or 44x33mm which forces a crop of the image that the lenses are designed to deliver, cramps wide-angle FOV options, and so on. It has never validly meant "a smaller format than the one I prefer and/or am used to". Or can you point to a reputable photographic authority that uses a different definition of "crop", from before digital sensors and internet forums came along?
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BJL

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Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors, and some sensor fab news
« Reply #75 on: September 02, 2018, 06:35:36 pm »

Edmund,

    You in particular might be interested in this; I admit that I wrongly predicted this would not happen, and it should help reduce the cost of larger sensors, in particular 36x24mm ones:

https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/home/products/details/litho-products/duv-scanners/fpa-6300esw-scanner

"FPA-6300ESW is the only KrF scanner in the world that can expose full size CMOS image sensor without stitching (see note 1) because 33 mm x 42.2 mm can be exposed in one shot."

"Note 1. Stitching exposure: A method of increasing exposure field size by connecting two or more adjacent exposure regions. The positional accuracy and alignment of the adjacent exposure regions directly affects the yield."

The 130nm resolution of this scanner is small enough for sensors of this size and upward, unlike earlier large field, lower resolution Canon steppers.


The cost notch due to lower yields when stitching is required now moves to the gap from 36x24mm to the larger formats. Frustratingly for MF, the field size is just short of covering 44x33mm, so those sensors will still need at least one stitch, and maybe 54x40mm also needs just one, but might need a 2x2 stitch.
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eronald

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Re: Updating Photokina Medium Format rumors, and some sensor fab news
« Reply #76 on: September 02, 2018, 08:32:41 pm »

Yes.

I don’t know how or whether Sony stitches, or whether they have custom tooling for one fab, or some workaround eg a non-optical direct write on wafer process  which is a remote possibility. I have met people who did that sort of thing, albeit a lifetime ago, and not where you would expect. I guess direct examination of a chip sample would make the stitching apparent.

OTOH maybe the chip architecture is such now that the stitching does not have much relevance to readout, or can easily compensated by calibration? How would it impact yields? How is the creation of the CFA done? How are focus pixels made? Why are Sony so good at BSI? I vaguely used to know about this stuff but am now hopelessly out of date.

Obviously there are still some sources of large CMOS sensor chips on the market but no one enjoys making them enough to sell them widely :)

Edmund

PS I would read those stepper specs as an invitation to contact Canon if you haopen to need 44x33 :)

Edmund

Edmund,

    You in particular might be interested in this; I admit that I wrongly predicted this would not happen, and it should help reduce the cost of larger sensors, in particular 36x24mm ones:

https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/home/products/details/litho-products/duv-scanners/fpa-6300esw-scanner

"FPA-6300ESW is the only KrF scanner in the world that can expose full size CMOS image sensor without stitching (see note 1) because 33 mm x 42.2 mm can be exposed in one shot."

"Note 1. Stitching exposure: A method of increasing exposure field size by connecting two or more adjacent exposure regions. The positional accuracy and alignment of the adjacent exposure regions directly affects the yield."

The 130nm resolution of this scanner is small enough for sensors of this size and upward, unlike earlier large field, lower resolution Canon steppers.


The cost notch due to lower yields when stitching is required now moves to the gap from 36x24mm to the larger formats. Frustratingly for MF, the field size is just short of covering 44x33mm, so those sensors will still need at least one stitch, and maybe 54x40mm also needs just one, but might need a 2x2 stitch.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2018, 08:55:12 pm by eronald »
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landscapephoto

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Re: Phase may release a 100 MP on 44x33
« Reply #77 on: September 03, 2018, 02:08:50 am »

No, it is a very bad time to be a net writer, because it is very hard to monetize one’s content adequately. A few years ago you could just get a job as a journalist, now as a blogger I guess you need business skills. Like the Kardashians.

Rather like Ming Thein, since we were discussing Hasselblad.
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Manoli

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Rather like Ming Thein, since we were discussing Hasselblad.

Aaah! Wonderful example, the creator of the renowned 'Ultraprint'

Quote
...  a proprietary, exclusive process to my work alone and requires special end to end workflow, special hardware, and suitable compositions/ aesthetics to ‘work’. It is not merely printing!

and a quick reality check
http://photothunk.blogspot.com/2015/08/just-how-fictional-in-ming-thein.html
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MN

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Quote
Hartblei Fuji GFX DRS adapter for Canon tilt/shift lenses. This looks like it might turn the GFX into a workhorse for product and architecture

Doesn't this somehow defeats the purpose the Canon tilt/shift lenses? (Although the combination looks great in the photograph.)

Firstly, they are not designed to cover 44x33mm (notwithstanding, they still may); secondly, I doubt much tilt/shift will be possible with a 44x33mm sensor.

Even without any tilt/shift, questionable whether these lenses will be able to take full advantage of the 100MP sensor in the upcoming Fujifilm GFX 50R.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 10:17:31 am by MN »
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