Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 22   Go Down

Author Topic: After Photokina Medium Format rumors (UPD. And The WINNAH is FUUUJIIII !!! )  (Read 36918 times)

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6638
    • My gallery on Instagram
Re: Photokina rumor and announcement Medium Format thread (UPDATING)
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2018, 10:33:15 pm »

I am sorry I did disappoint... it must be the stress generated by the single memory card slot on the Z7... lack of sleep... you know...

Cheers,
Bernard

Yes, this new Nikon is so exciting.

So I assume you have no MF news, and have seen no UFOs, Phase One mirrorless systems, 200mm Hasselblad XCD lenses or even a Fuji MF rangefinder?

Edmund
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13215
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: Photokina rumor and announcement Medium Format thread (UPDATING)
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2018, 12:07:47 am »

So I assume you have no MF news, and have seen no UFOs, Phase One mirrorless systems, 200mm Hasselblad XCD lenses or even a Fuji MF rangefinder?

Nope.

I believe that I have been way too critical of Hasselblad's H6D-100c firmware release speed for them to consider me a person trusty of pre-release information sharing.  ;D

Cheers,
Bernard

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6638
    • My gallery on Instagram
Re: Photokina rumor and announcement Medium Format thread (UPDATING)
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2018, 11:40:31 am »

Nope.

I believe that I have been way too critical of Hasselblad's H6D-100c firmware release speed for them to consider me a person trusty of pre-release information sharing.  ;D

Cheers,
Bernard

I will gladly take that useless H6D100C off your hands now it's obsolete :)

Edmund
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

hubell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1054
Re: Photokina rumor and announcement Medium Format thread (UPDATING)
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2018, 12:56:47 pm »

IBIS on MF would be a positive.  Hasselblad could possibly use it in a future X1? with their version of Pixel shift, I can't remember their name for it. Fuji did not offer it on the X-H1 but maybe can bring it into play on the GFX100s (whatever it will be called).  Huge deal for me as I have seen just what pixel shift can offer with the K1. 

For Phase One, it would be an excellent addition as I prefer many time to hand hold a MF system.  Since I double P1 will ever come out with VR/OIS style lenses, it would be great to have it in a back.  For me P1 = tripod and there are many times I just want the freedom of hand holding. 

Fuji/GFX with OIS on the lenses that offer it that I have, 120mm and 250mm is amazing at least for me.  The ability to take that camera of tripod and hand hold large series pano's is wonderful and frees up many shots I just would not have taken. IBIS would extend this to non Fuji lenses or Fuji lenses without OIS like the 32-64, which I would dearly love to have stabilization.

Last spring in Yosemite, I had both the 3100/XF and GFX.  After two days of stopping, extending the tripod lens, taking a shot, then packing it all back up, I was happy to carry the GFX for the rest of my hiking.  Really only needed the tripod for slower shutter speeds/water, but during last spring and the massive flood such shutter speeds were really out of the question on most streams.  Happily carried the GFX and it did free me up for many shots I just would have passed on other wise with the P1. Not to mention the fact that with a 128GB card the P1 takes about 14 seconds to come into use after power up, 12 to 14 seconds each time you power on.  GFX instantly ready to shoot, like a Nikon or Canon.

If I was still 40 or so years old, maybe, but not now. 

It will be interesting to see what finally gets announced.  But 150Mp for me is a non issue.  Just don't need the overhead.

Paul C

I just think with a 100mp medium format camera shooting handheld even with IBIS, I am throwing away a lot of the extraordinary detail that the camera is capable of. For pixel shift applications on a tripod, perhaps, but that seems to only work with a static subject. I have tried the IBIS with my Sony A7RII. It's no panacea that leads me to think I can toss my tripod away.
I like it for travel photography. But I wouldn't use a 100 mp GFX for travel photography. Too big, too heavy, too obtrusive.

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13215
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: Photokina rumor and announcement Medium Format thread (UPDATING)
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2018, 04:41:03 pm »

I will gladly take that useless H6D100C off your hands now it's obsolete :)

Would your kindness extend to the Arca as well?

Cheers,
Bernard

pschefz

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 527
Re: Photokina rumor and announcement Medium Format thread (UPDATING)
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2018, 06:00:01 pm »

IBIS on the GFX2....hmmmm...they wont even put it in the (rumored, soon to be announced) X-T3 and that sensor is a LOT smaller....adding IBIS to a GFX 33x44 sensor would take quite a bit of room, add weight and not so sure how much it would help it would actually provide....
I would love to see it happen, just sold my GFX, the 100mpix model should be a real step up....i think PD AF along with the extra resolution and even better DR...very interesting....throw in IBIS, even better!

i shoot 99% handheld so IBIS is great, and for video it can be heaven....

not so sure about the Z...had my eye on it but will stick with sony for now, i havent heard anything about it that clearly puts it over the competition and some reports of AF aren't that great....short battery life, low buffer (oh how spoiled we have become) but more importantly the price? a no brainer for nikon shooters maybe? but everybody i know on the D800 D810 D850 train already got a sony (for that mirrorless option) a while ago....and they all already have some sony glass....if anything they are talking about leaving nikon....and a manual 6000$ 50mm? plenty of options for that right now for a lot less money....
i guess we will see how fast they can build and ship.....
and if sony wont spoil the fun with a new announcement as well...
Logged
schefz.com
artloch.com

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13215
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: Photokina rumor and announcement Medium Format thread (UPDATING)
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2018, 07:27:43 pm »

Choosing the right mount has never been more difficult.

In this context the open mount of the Sony combined with their innovation drive makes it a safe bet.

It seems clear that MF will maintain an advantage in sensor resolution, would it only be because Sony will carefully ensure that their most expensive sensor remain attractive to sell in sufficient quantities. The lenses of the X1D and GFX system are also outstanding.

But if the quality delivered by the Sony sensor/FE mount lenses meets your needs, then no need to look elsewhere. Sony will most probably continue to focus on very compact camera designs which a great value also in many cases and to deliver the latest bells and whistles, many of those very useful.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: August 27, 2018, 08:13:53 pm by BernardLanguillier »
Logged

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6638
    • My gallery on Instagram
Re: Photokina rumor and announcement Medium Format thread (UPDATING)
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2018, 08:17:51 pm »


It seems clear that MF will maintain an advantage in sensor resolution, would it only be because Sony will carefully ensure that their most expensive sensor remain attractive to sell in sufficient quantities.

Cheers,
Bernard

MF is clearly going mainstream now with a bunch of cameras under $10K, and Fuji who are a big brand in Japan are backing it.

To secure the resolution advantage in the light of the next batch of 70-80 Mp 35 mm systems, Fuji, Hassy, Pentax could all ship fullframe MF 150MP at $10K today if they wanted to, and make a solid profit. But they'd have to write off their brand new lens systems. Sony would be really happy to sell them all the sensors as they would amortize the production over 3 years of large volume sales, exactly as happened with the now obsolete 50Mp 44x33 sensor. Sony Semiconductor Solutions's parent company Sony (SNE)  would be making substantially more profit on one 150MP sensor than on an A7 body, or worse a Z7 sensor, so what do they care? But if the majority of existing customers eg. Hassy and Fuji get killed by someone who leapfrogs, corporate management may not like it.

Actually, Pentax would have an immediate evolution to fullframe MF as a reasonable choice,as the camera design costs are low with drop-in sensors, and tooling costs are really low with no mirror box to source and calibrate and the current Pentax MF dSLR product is now clinically dead .

Ricoh is large enough to be able to afford this sort of "practical joke" on their competition, especially since the 645Z seems to have sold ok, so their MF division might get the quarter for another game of pinball. So my guess is they will let Hassy and Fuji have their day in the sun, wait until Fuji's geeky japanese customers start to understand that they are paying a lot for something that is barely better than 35mm, and then have a serious debate whether to launch, and attempt a serious negotiation with Sony. An announcement might come in about a year when the new 60 or 70 MP 35mm sensors launch, and when the Internet is full of pixel peeping of the Hassy and Fuji 100MP vs the 70MP Sony and Nikon top end systems with $6K Otus-class glass. Because Ricoh is a Sony customer, Ricoh have access to the Sony 35mm chip roadmap and so Pentax marketing already know today exactly when Fuji and Hassy's 100MP systems will turn old.

Of course everything there is true also about Leica, who have their obsolescing Leica S system,  and a need to keep their Sinar division supplied with chips for backs.  They may face technical difficulties in obtaining adequate yields for an independently fabricated high-resolution fullframe chip, and  BSI seems almost a necessity. Unless some generous third party heavily subsidises an independent chip supplier (eg. for remote sensing applications), and makes the product freely available, I would expect Leica and above all Sinar to fall into the Sony camp quite soon for their large format chips. 

I think a debate over imaginary cameras is as much fun as a debate about second card slots, no?

Edmund
« Last Edit: August 27, 2018, 11:20:46 pm by eronald »
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13215
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: Photokina rumor and announcement Medium Format thread (UPDATING)
« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2018, 08:59:48 pm »

I think a debate over imaginary cameras is as much fun as a debate about second card slots, no?

Certainly, but the problem is that there is a much higher risk of agreeing.

Cheers,
Bernard

Stefan.Steib

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 470
    • HCam - Hartblei Pro Photography solutions
Re: Photokina rumor and announcement Medium Format thread (UPDATING)
« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2018, 09:44:15 am »

...............
Of course everything there is true also about Leica, who have their obsolescing Leica S system,  and a need to keep their Sinar division supplied with chips for backs.  They may face technical difficulties in obtaining adequate yields for an independently fabricated high-resolution fullframe chip, and  BSI seems almost a necessity. Unless some generous third party heavily subsidises an independent chip supplier (eg. for remote sensing applications), and makes the product freely available, I would expect Leica and above all Sinar to fall into the Sony camp quite soon for their large format chips.  ......

Edmund

Sinar is no more existing physically - at least not in Switzerland. All the assets have been brought to Leica in Germany and are "waiting" there to be organized which "may" or "may not" happen in a reasonable timeframe. The website sinar.ch is run bei the Leica branch in CH.
I don´t know about customer service, maybe somebody who tried to access this recently can shed a light on the situation.

Greetings from Germany
Stefan
Logged
Because Photography is more than Technology and "as we have done it before".

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6638
    • My gallery on Instagram
Re: Photokina rumor and announcement Medium Format thread (UPDATING)
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2018, 10:37:05 am »

Sinar is no more existing physically - at least not in Switzerland. All the assets have been brought to Leica in Germany and are "waiting" there to be organized which "may" or "may not" happen in a reasonable timeframe. The website sinar.ch is run bei the Leica branch in CH.
I don´t know about customer service, maybe somebody who tried to access this recently can shed a light on the situation.

Greetings from Germany
Stefan

I wonder who the Sinar customers moved to.

A Canon rep told me a few years ago that the problem with the Pro 35mm models is that they are too expensive for independent working pros, or rather the working pros are now quite poor,  so they end up buying prosumer models, and so the Pro division is angry at the prosumer division.

This may explain the strange situation of the Fuji GFX, where what is arguably the most "professional" -robust, full-featured- MF body is actually the cheapest by far.

Consumer electronics is a strange business, because what people get to buy is not determined by real technical or economic considerations but by this strange art called "marketing".

Edmund
« Last Edit: August 28, 2018, 10:49:49 am by eronald »
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

Joe Towner

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1176
Re: Photokina rumor and announcement Medium Format thread (UPDATING)
« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2018, 10:49:13 am »

I think it'll be the H6D-150c rather than a H7 - the H6 platform was just revisioned with the CFast slot & just lots more horsepower.  The IQ platform had to come current for the 151mp, thus the IQ4.

Hass coming out with a new lens would be HUGE - it's my biggest concern with the H platform (that and focus trim/AF microadjustment).  The dust up with Fuji on the X1D/GFX and those lenses still worries me.  I love the new Orange Square shutters, but Schneider did a top to bottom tweak with the BlueRing lenses and at 151mp, every little bit matters.
Logged
t: @PNWMF

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6638
    • My gallery on Instagram
Re: Photokina rumor and announcement Medium Format thread (UPDATING)
« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2018, 11:05:04 am »

IMHO if they will go H7 when they do the on-sensor PDAF update. If it's now it's now, if it's later, it's later :)

But I'd be really surprised if the X2D goes out the door without PDAF since fast focus is essential for a handheld body, especially when it's one which hedgefund managers buy to snap their Instagram wives at Davos. These guys may value looks and style, but they hate bad performance, be it in cars or cameras.

Edmund

I think it'll be the H6D-150c rather than a H7 - the H6 platform was just revisioned with the CFast slot & just lots more horsepower.  The IQ platform had to come current for the 151mp, thus the IQ4.

Hass coming out with a new lens would be HUGE - it's my biggest concern with the H platform (that and focus trim/AF microadjustment).  The dust up with Fuji on the X1D/GFX and those lenses still worries me.  I love the new Orange Square shutters, but Schneider did a top to bottom tweak with the BlueRing lenses and at 151mp, every little bit matters.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2018, 11:12:08 am by eronald »
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

heinrichvoelkel

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 387
Re: Photokina rumor and announcement Medium Format thread (UPDATING)
« Reply #33 on: August 28, 2018, 02:02:42 pm »

Had a meeting with my dealer regarding a fuji gfx buy today and he told me to wait at least two weeks for something coming up. He said 100MP are more than a possibility.
Logged

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6638
    • My gallery on Instagram
Re: Photokina rumor and announcement Medium Format thread (UPDATING)
« Reply #34 on: August 28, 2018, 07:01:34 pm »

Had a meeting with my dealer regarding a fuji gfx buy today and he told me to wait at least two weeks for something coming up. He said 100MP are more than a possibility.

Yeah, I think we can take a 100MP GFX II as a given.
The interesting question concerning Fuji is whether they will release a rangefinder-style MF camera.


Edmund
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

BJL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6600
Re: Photokina rumor and announcement Medium Format thread (UPDATING)
« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2018, 07:40:09 pm »

...
Phase:
- Phase One seems to be progressively prioritising high-margin full-service institutional sales and rental. So far, they have a high-end price structure and no mirrorless offering.
--------------
     Announced (I got it right):
- Phase One IQ4 150mp
- Phase One IQ4 150mp Achromatic
- Phase One IQ4 100mp Trichromatic
All three use full-frame 645 sensors. Phase One is 100% focused on Full-Frame 645 solutions.
- IQ4 150 53x40mm back.
    False Rumour: (Egg on my face)
- 100Mp 44x33 back. Phase seems to be committing to fullframe MF only in the future, at least for IQ backs. No surprises given their upscale positioning.
--------------

Here is my crazy speculation/wish for Phase One. It will stick to its new "cropping, nevermore" status, where all its cameras use a lens system designed for the camera's sensor format, not relying on lenses designed for a larger format ... but it will do that with two "full frame, no cropping" systems:
- DSLRs with roughly 54x40mm sensors and lenses for that "645" format, and
- EVF cameras with 44x33mm sensors and a complete new lens system designed for that format.

Since "Full Frame" is well established as applying to at least two formats (the Film Formats "645" and "35mm"), I challenge anyone to justify saying that 36x24mm systems are "Full Frame" but EVF camera and lens systems like Hasselblad X and Fujifilm G with their larger 44x33mm format are not!

P. S. But I actually expect that instead, PhaseOne will stick to its "645 or die", with any EVF cameras staying in that niche.
Logged

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11284
    • Echophoto
Re: Photokina rumor and announcement Medium Format thread (UPDATING)
« Reply #36 on: August 28, 2018, 09:44:48 pm »

Hi Edmund,

A good list.

I am not sure what Phase is doing, though. They may go high end only, but that makes only sense if large sensor dominates their sales.

But, I would guess mirrorless MFD kills off 44x33 DSLRs.

Regarding pixel shift, I think that increasing linear resolution 41% gives more benefits than adding pixel shift. Obviously the techniques can be combined.

I don't think IBIS is available as off the shelf technology, it is more like DIY. So, if GFX gets IBS it is not given Hasselblad can use it. Hasselblad may opt for multishot, but I think I have read that the actuators used for that are quite large.

Fuji is the giant in the MFD industry now. I guess that they are selling GFX like hotcakes. Hasselblad may sell a lot of X1Ds, but Fuji has the backing of the Green Gigant and can share technology development with Fujis APS-C models. So, I guess we will see a lot more innovation från Fuji than from Hasselblad.

Hasselblad hopefully corrects some technical issues with the next X-series camera.

There has been a lot of interesting developments in MFD.

Best regards
Erik
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

BAB

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 403
Re: Photokina rumor and announcement Medium Format thread (UPDATING)
« Reply #37 on: August 28, 2018, 11:07:06 pm »

WELL if one could have a live RAW histogram in the viewfinder that would be a game changer...adding a eye AF tracking would kill it also. Either with OVF or EVF or both!
Logged
I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kic

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6638
    • My gallery on Instagram
Re: Photokina rumor and announcement Medium Format thread (UPDATING)
« Reply #38 on: August 28, 2018, 11:29:22 pm »

Here is my crazy speculation/wish for Phase One.
P. S. But I actually expect that instead, PhaseOne will stick to its "645 or die", with any EVF cameras staying in that niche.

I think Phase One is slowly exiting the handheld photo market and concentrating on very controlled tethered and institutional environments.

I suspect the cost differential between a fullframe and cropframe 645 chip is now not worth it for them to assemble different back models. They are basically going to have ONE product. Of course they could supply 645 chips in every back and enable the periphery for a shoot if the photographer buys a token :)

Phase have always been smart at business, but they're now moving from being a strong MF competitor to total ownership of the tethered niche, while Hassy are taking ownership of the prestige market and Fuji grabs the MF low end.

In computer terms, Phase are servers, Hassy are Apples and Fuji are the Dell desktops.
Or if you prefer, Phase make desktop enterprise phones, Hassy make iPhones, and Fuji are Android ;)

Edmund
« Last Edit: August 28, 2018, 11:38:14 pm by eronald »
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

Dan Wells

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 987
Re: Photokina rumor and announcement Medium Format thread (UPDATING)
« Reply #39 on: August 28, 2018, 11:39:31 pm »

Does anybody know what the chips actually cost the manufacturer? And are the "FF" (53x40) chips massively more expensive than the 33x44 chips? Is A GFX twice the cost of a 24x36 mirrorless with nearly the same pixel count because the sensor makes up most of that, or is there a much higher margin (perhaps because of lower sales)? Is a Phase five times the cost of a GFX because that FF chip costs many thousands of dollars? I could see the chips getting massively more difficult to make as they got bigger, because one error ruins a whole chip, but I could also see the pricing being a function of a deliberate low-volume/high price strategy...

Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 ... 22   Go Up