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Author Topic: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018  (Read 71668 times)

32BT

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #760 on: August 27, 2018, 03:38:00 am »

What would have been a brave effort from Nikon according to you?

Cheers,
Bernard

Businesswise: circular ownership
Technologywise: modularisation

I personally believe the integration of video is not our finest hour in digital photography, but if that's where the industry is going in the foreseeable future, you might also try to radically redesign the ergonomics for that considering ergonomics is one of the fortťs of Nikon. New separately joined rotating handgrip that allows comfortable low or high holding, detachable viewfinder (even if just wired) that attaches to glasses, that type of thing.

Mind you, considering the specialisation in separate bodies currently happening seems to indicate to me that we will return to a situation where stills and videos are separate devices.

And that perhaps brings us to a relevant generalisation: there's precious little need for an slr style body under a lot of circumstances.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #761 on: August 27, 2018, 03:40:55 am »

Businesswise: circular ownership

Please forgive my ignorance, could you please elaborate on this?

Cheers,
Bernard

32BT

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #762 on: August 27, 2018, 03:56:16 am »

Please forgive my ignorance, could you please elaborate on this?

Cheers,
Bernard

Perhaps we could think of it as a subscription type model (oh horror, i can't believe i just said that) where the goodies remain the property (read: responsibility) of the manufacturer so that the raw materials will be recycled at end-of-lifetime.

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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #763 on: August 27, 2018, 04:08:58 am »

Perhaps we could think of it as a subscription type model (oh horror, i can't believe i just said that) where the goodies remain the property (read: responsibility) of the manufacturer so that the raw materials will be recycled at end-of-lifetime.

I see. I personally either re-sell or send for re-cycling all the electronic equipment I use, but I understand the point.

I am not sure that camera buyers are ready for this kind of business model, but this is for sure innovative.

Cheers,
Bernard

Guillermo Luijk

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #764 on: August 27, 2018, 04:34:03 am »

We'll see. I may end up keeping the Z7 and D5 and sell the D850. It will depend on how the Z7 performs in real world. ;)

If I may ask Bernard, until yesterday I read you claiming all time the D850 to be the best FF option in the market, even over the A7R III. Pretty much in Thom Hogan's commenting line (i.e. without much rationale to support his choice). Now you are becoming a Z7 early adopter, even suggesting you could end up replacing your D850 by a camera few people have even put their hands on.

Is this passion? you expect the Z7 filling some important gap you found on the D850 but never talked about?.

I feel really curious.

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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #765 on: August 27, 2018, 05:02:04 am »

If I may ask Bernard, until yesterday I read you claiming all time the D850 to be the best FF option in the market, even over the A7R III. Pretty much in Thom Hogan's commenting line (i.e. without much rationale to support his choice). Now you are becoming a Z7 early adopter, even suggesting you could end up replacing your D850 by a camera few people have even put their hands on.

Is this passion? you expect the Z7 filling some important gap you found on the D850 but never talked about?.

No, the D850 remains an amazing camera, no issues at all with it. I believe it is overall a more complete camera than the Z7 but probably not by much. The only moment I don't use it is when I need more speed or even more AF-C accuracy or when I expect very low light situations, and then the D5 comes into play.

I have written many times that I find the D850 to be the best DSLR, I don't think I wrote that much about it vs the a7rIII that I think is an excellent body. But as an owner of F mount lenses, the D850 is indeed currently the best FF option for me since I believe we will agree that the performance of the D850 and a7rIII are close. In the limited time I had with the Sony, I had the feeling that it was not yet at D850 level in terms of subject tracking, but pretty close.

But I have been considering for a long time to try out a top mirrorless body with the a7rIII being my top candidate till date. There are times when a more compact option would be convenient and I have been intrigued by the benefits of the EVF, even if I still far prefer the OVF experience from what I have seen with the Sony. We'll have to see whether the Z7 changes that. I would also like to dip my toes in some video shooting (at a very amateur family level) and the video AF of the D850 is not usable.

On top of this, what attracts me most with the Z7, or I should say the Z mount, is the promise of very good lenses while keeping the benefit of my existing lenses line-up. I have been impressed by what I have seen from the H1D/GFX lenses, and I believe that the Nikon S glass has the potential to deliver the same value on 35mm mirrorless. I believe that I have been pretty consistent in my quest for good glass that has taken me towards Otus and Rodenstock options at the cost of convenience and... price. ;) I have seen good results from some Sony alpha lenses and some are outstanding with zero reservation (the 85mm GM comes to mind), but I was less impressed by the more compact options. The 55mm f1.8 is very good but I can't say I found the rendering exciting. But I could probably live with those. But the prospect of having to change over my many F mount glass is a bit daunting, a Nikon solution would be easier for several reasons, as long as the performance is close. And with the Z, I believe that we will get better lenses. Test results will tell of course.

I have not said that I would replace my D850 by a Z7, I wrote that I would take a decision after several months of usage. It could go either way. The financial risk will be pretty limited considering that both cameras will still be in high demand by the time I take a decision.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: August 27, 2018, 05:24:28 am by BernardLanguillier »
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Guillermo Luijk

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #766 on: August 27, 2018, 05:29:27 am »

I have written many times that I find the D850 to be the best DSLR, I don't think I wrote that much about it vs the a7rIII that I think is an excellent body. But as an owner of F mount lenses, the D850 is indeed currently the best FF option for me since I believe we will agree that the performance of the D850 and a7rIII are close. In the limited time I had with the Sony, I had the feeling that it was not yet at D850 level in terms of subject tracking, but pretty close.

That's reasonable. If you allow me an advice when judging the EVF, wait till you have used it for some time, getting used to all of its benefits (realtime exposure and WB, zoom for MF, checking your shots without having to look at the LCD,...), and then go back to the OVF. I actually realized the advantages of the EVF once I needed to use my DSLR again, and then I knew I'd never go back to DSLR.

Regards
« Last Edit: August 27, 2018, 05:36:50 am by Guillermo Luijk »
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Manoli

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #767 on: August 27, 2018, 05:47:51 am »

No, the D850 remains an amazing camera, no issues at all with it. The only moment I don't use it is when I need more speed or even more AF-C accuracy [...] In the limited time I had with the Sony, I had the feeling that it was not yet at D850 level in terms of subject tracking, but pretty close.

Regarding superlative AF, excerpts below from a commentary by Kenneth Jarecke

https://medium.com/@kennethjarecke/shutterbugs-pixel-peepers-and-others-who-annoy-me-9924593a8ac4
https://medium.com/@kennethjarecke

Quote
When it comes to looking at pictures, the first thing that matters is the picture. Is it any good? Does it trigger a receptor in oneís brain that triggers something else? Thatís what good pictures do [...] I donít care what camera system you use. Nikon, Canon, Sony, FujiÖ I just donít care. Never have, never will. Knock yourself out, I mean literally, for real.



ďTaken with a Sony Alpha a7R III on July 4, 2018. Images like this from a Montana rodeo would be much more difficult to shoot using DSLR cameras.Ē

I used this eye focus feature to lock onto and track the horse when it was about fifty yards away, at which point the beast was still below the horizon line, meaning no separation from the background, and a long throw with a wide angle (35mm) lens. Thatís a crazy level of sophistication for a camera to successfully pull off, but it did.

And if that wasn't enough,

Quote
Talking about gear is the kind of stuff that drives me nuts. Sure, thereís a time and a place for it, but my dear photography friends, that time is not ďalwaysĒ and the place is not ďeverywhere on the entire internetĒ.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #768 on: August 27, 2018, 07:23:44 am »

Sounds impressive!

Hard to tell how other cameras would perform without an in situ comparison, but it does sound impressive.

Now, the ability to track consists in many different aspects, including the ability to follow complex rear/front and sidewide motion, the ability to do so at different levels of illumination,...

Kind of ironic that you use his brand agnostic article to promote the performance of one brand over an another don't you think? ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #769 on: August 27, 2018, 07:59:46 am »

That's reasonable. If you allow me an advice when judging the EVF, wait till you have used it for some time, getting used to all of its benefits (realtime exposure and WB, zoom for MF, checking your shots without having to look at the LCD,...), and then go back to the OVF. I actually realized the advantages of the EVF once I needed to use my DSLR again, and then I knew I'd never go back to DSLR.

Thanks for the tip Guillermo, much appreciated!

Cheers,
Bernard

Manoli

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #770 on: August 27, 2018, 08:42:21 am »

Kind of ironic that you use his brand agnostic article to promote the performance of one brand over an another don't you think? ;)

No, I don't.
It wasn't an article promoting one brand over another.
It was an article illustrating the usefulness of an MILC over a DSLR in those particular circumstances
If you'd read the full blog post, you'd have understood that - and that's coming from a man whose covered both Olympics and Gulf war(s) - so, IMO, he's got the street cred to go with the post.

Also, I'm not promoting any brand - but I do use mirrorless, in preference to DSLR's, for my purposes.

Bernard,

I don't know what you're getting so futzed about. You should be amongst the happiest people on the planet. Even I'm elated for you!  Get the Z7 plus adapter - you've got an abundance of exceptional lenses to try it out on (for a relative minimal outlay) and you'll soon be in hog heaven ... As they say 'live in the present' and don't worry about who is going to produce the 'the best image quality system in existence in the 35mm world' which , for sure, will still be many years away.

Best,
M
« Last Edit: August 27, 2018, 09:34:08 am by Manoli »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #771 on: August 27, 2018, 08:47:02 am »

No, I don't.
It wasn't an article promoting one brand over another.
It was an article illustrating the usefulness of an MILC over a DSLR in those particular circumstances
If you'd read the full blog post, you'd have understood that - and that's coming from a man whose covered both Olympics and Gulf war(s) - so, IMO, he's got the street cred to go with the post.

Also, I'm not promoting any brand - but I do use mirrorless, in preference to DSLR's, for my purposes.

Bernard,

I don't know what you're getting so futzed about. You should be amongst the happiest person on the planet. Get the Z7 plus adapter - you've got an abundance of exceptional lenses to try it out on (for a relative minimal outlay) and you'll soon be in hog heaven ... As they say 'live in the present' and don't worry about who is going to produce the 'the best image quality system in existence in the 35mm world' which , for sure, will still be many, many years away.

I am perfectly happy, I was just messing with you a bit. I understand that the blog post wasn't about one brand, your usage of the blog post appeared to be, but I guess I got that wrong. ;) For the record, I answered a question from Guillermo about the a7rIII, it was absolutely not my intention to discuss non Nikon cameras here.

This being said, this isn't the object of this thread, and won't prevent me from sleeping, but which system offers the best image quality is a perfectly legitimate question. And I don't think that the answer "they are all the same" is likely to be the right one.

If your point is that the photographer is more important than the camera, I fully agree.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: August 27, 2018, 09:12:01 am by BernardLanguillier »
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chez

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #772 on: August 27, 2018, 09:40:39 am »

It really depends on what the expectation is.

As far as I am concerned, my main expectation was better image quality in a compact form factor and a platform (a mount) that won't be limiting 5 years down the road. And it looks like we may be getting that. That what truly matters (to me at least).

For the rest it seems like a highly usable, perfectly sized, well implemented mirrorless camera with good AF, excellent video (possibly overall best in class among FF DSLRs based on initial reports),... in other words not much that should come in the way of achieving the image quality potential of the platform. As a photographer, that's what matters to me.

As a geek, I would have preferred a levitation-capable-glow-in-the dark-plugged-into-my-mind-no-need-to-press-the-shutter camera of course.

Cheers,
Bernard

Sure that's fine for you Bernard...but what is so revolutionary about what you mentioned. As far as image quality goes...do you really think you can tell the difference in prints between images shot with a anion, Canon or Sony...or is this "revolutionary hype" as well?
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #773 on: August 27, 2018, 09:58:18 am »

Sure that's fine for you Bernard...but what is so revolutionary about what you mentioned. As far as image quality goes...do you really think you can tell the difference in prints between images shot with a anion, Canon or Sony...or is this "revolutionary hype" as well?

I donít think I have used the term revolutionary to speak about the Z7.

I think that progress can still be made in optical image quality and that the Z system is going to move the bar forward.

People spend lots of money to get MF image quality, there are applications where that makes a difference in a world when prints that arenít 40x60 inch feel tiny.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: August 27, 2018, 08:04:42 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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eronald

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #774 on: August 27, 2018, 10:08:01 am »

Clearly Bernard feels that a lighter camera would disappear into the background and allow him to use his photographic skills more "transparently".
Even $2  humble graphite pencils are very different to use, and finding the right one can make a huge difference.

Let's see what happens when he gets his new Nikon MILC or whatever you call its mirrorless ilk.

btw, those are nice images you chose to post.

Edmund





No, I don't.
It wasn't an article promoting one brand over another.
It was an article illustrating the usefulness of an MILC over a DSLR in those particular circumstances
If you'd read the full blog post, you'd have understood that - and that's coming from a man whose covered both Olympics and Gulf war(s) - so, IMO, he's got the street cred to go with the post.

Also, I'm not promoting any brand - but I do use mirrorless, in preference to DSLR's, for my purposes.

Bernard,

I don't know what you're getting so futzed about. You should be amongst the happiest people on the planet. Even I'm elated for you!  Get the Z7 plus adapter - you've got an abundance of exceptional lenses to try it out on (for a relative minimal outlay) and you'll soon be in hog heaven ... As they say 'live in the present' and don't worry about who is going to produce the 'the best image quality system in existence in the 35mm world' which , for sure, will still be many years away.

Best,
M
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D White

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #775 on: August 27, 2018, 12:10:44 pm »

I guess it's all part of the process, but it is amazing how forty pages later we can still slice and dice and rehash the topic of a new piece of equipment.

Perhaps it is due to these releases being seen as paradigm shift. Perhaps there is angst as to which way to go with further equipment choices. Perhaps we are never satisfied at what we have already and fear being left behind.

Regardless of underlying cause, it is fascinating to read through all of the back and forth banter. Some is very useful and well thought out while some less so.

When Canon finally has a release, one metric to judge it's success is by whether it obtains forty plus pages on a forum.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #776 on: August 27, 2018, 12:19:08 pm »

... When Canon finally has a release, one metric to judge it's success is by whether it obtains forty plus pages on a forum.

No way, Canon doesn't have Bernard in its corner ;)

Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #777 on: August 27, 2018, 12:21:48 pm »

No way, Canon doesn't have Bernard in its corner ;)

My thoughts exactly.
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Manoli

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #778 on: August 27, 2018, 12:27:26 pm »

Thanks, Edmund.
I'm assuming you're referring to the Instag ones ?
and not the shots of my cameo at a Montana Rodeo ...  ( just jesting, boys, just jesting .. 'twas not I)

Best,
M

Clearly Bernard feels that a lighter camera would disappear into the background and allow him to use his photographic skills more "transparently".
Even $2  humble graphite pencils are very different to use, and finding the right one can make a huge difference.
Let's see what happens when he gets his new Nikon MILC or whatever you call its mirrorless ilk.

btw, those are nice images you chose to post.

Edmund
« Last Edit: August 27, 2018, 12:30:36 pm by Manoli »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #779 on: August 27, 2018, 04:30:21 pm »

No way, Canon doesn't have Bernard in its corner ;)

The questions is more how much Shadowblade will dislike the new Canon isnít it? ;)

This thread has been a lot more about people writing about what the new Nikon isnít rather than about what the camera is and can do. You guys last 5-6 posts are a good example of that btw (all pencils/cameras are the same,...).

I personnally think that the Z mount is as big a thing in photographic gear as can be. And the only remaining event of similar impact will indeed be Canonís mirrorless FF intro. Now, it is totally fine to not care about camera equipment but then why bother commenting here?

Chees,
Bernard
« Last Edit: August 27, 2018, 05:33:42 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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