Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Mirrorless Cameras => Topic started by: BJL on April 30, 2018, 02:45:44 pm

Title: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BJL on April 30, 2018, 02:45:44 pm
https://www.dpreview.com/news/6645869398/nikon-manager-confirms-new-mirrorless-system-coming-by-spring-2019

Do we at least get some details at Photokina this September?


P. S. Modified on August 23 with a new more optimistic date.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Alex Waugh on April 30, 2018, 09:11:06 pm
Probably an announcement.

Should be a great Photokina though. Canons FF mirrorless should be ready, Leica Q2 & possibly Hasselblad X2D.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Two23 on April 30, 2018, 10:10:55 pm
I've got a hunch this is going to cost more than I want to pay.  I'm actually pretty happy with what I have. :)


Kent in SD
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Jonathan Cross on May 01, 2018, 04:53:41 am
+1

Title: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming BY March 2019 (more optimistic)
Post by: BJL on May 02, 2018, 09:19:53 am
Thom Hogan had a more optimistic interpretation: that the comment from a Nikon rep. was solely about it coming in the current fiscal year, which ends on March 31, 2019; because this is a comment related to the fiscal year report coming out soon. So it could be anytime between now and then, and all I am betting on is “more news at Photokina”.
For now his comments are on his front page http://bythom.com
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: HSakols on May 04, 2018, 10:06:02 am
Right now there is now point to go mirrorless because most nikon lenses are monsters.  Now if they redesigned the old AFD primes and came up with a 24-70 f4-5.6 that would be different. 
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Eric Brody on May 15, 2018, 11:40:47 am
Hugh, I gently beg to differ. For a long time, my Fuji years, (after my Nikon full frame years) I was an advocate of mirrorless because of the size of the camera and lenses. I criticized Sony mirrorless because while it had a diminutive body, their full frame lenses were quite large. I now own Sony gear and its large lenses, and have come to the realization that the best reasons for mirrorless are the EVF and its options for magnification for manual focus, the lack of a mirror for accuracy of focus and a whole bunch of others. You can't beat physics (usually). Full frame, fast autofocus lenses are going to be large. The Sigma Art lenses, while excellent are not petite. Their 35mm f/1.4 is 1.5 POUNDS! the Sony 35mm f/2.8 (slower, I know), is 4.5 OUNCES! My Sony 24-70 f/2.8 is what you would call a monster but it is capable of impressive images. I loved the Fuji system and will never say anything bad about it but it's small because it is APS-C. They also engineered superb optics for it.

I'm certain Nikon and Canon will make excellent and interesting systems for us to discuss into the future.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019: size is stil one factor
Post by: BJL on May 15, 2018, 02:51:47 pm
Eric, I agree with all of this, but have one comment about size advantages.
For a long time ... I was an advocate of mirrorless because of the size of the camera and lenses. ... I now ... have come to the realization that the best reasons for mirrorless are the EVF and its options for magnification for manual focus, the lack of a mirror for accuracy of focus and a whole bunch of others.
There is still one respect in which an EVF does help with allowing the _option_ of downsizing, even though there are also good reasons to combine an EVF body with big, bright, fast lenses. This is the fact that the far greater low light handling of modern sensors compared to film means that, when the reason for using those big lenses is speed (rather than the esthetic goal of very blurry backgrounds) then the same speed and low-light handling can now be achieved with far smaller, lighter lenses. The speed achieved with 35mm film and the fastest lenses can be matched or exceeded at about f/8 in 35mm format, but also at about f/5 in APS-C at 2/3 the focal length, f/4 at half the focal length in 4/3", and so on.

But no matter how this lens downsizing is achieved (with or without sensor downsizing) it means that these smaller lenses gather light far less quickly than do the big, bright lenses of the film era and of high-end 35mm format DSLR usage ... and this is a problem for optical viewfinders, at least with manual focusing!

A common complaint in this forum and others is that the OVFs on DSLRs in the new sub-35mm "digital only" formats give an image that undesirably small and/or dim. And if one stays with a good 35mm format SLR viewfinder but downsize the lenses to f/8 or slower, there would be the same OVF dimness problem in many situations. (Try DOF preview with the lens at f/8 to see what I mean.)

I suggest that the coming preferred solution for this "kit downsizing through lens downsizing" is to abandon the OVF in favor of an EVF (or using the rear screen if and when you are comfortable composing that way.) Therefore I do still see the case for EVF cameras being strongest with the new smaller "digital-only" formats, even if there is also a good case for having EVFs as an _option_ with 36x24mm and 44x33mm sensors too.

Entry-level APS-C DSLRs with their small penta-mirror OVFs of less than 100% coverage might not be on the market for many more years.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Telecaster on May 15, 2018, 03:05:57 pm
One of the things I really like about Zeiss' Batis lens lineup for Sony EVF cameras is how light they are. I'll take the minor speed reduction in exchange for a noticeably lighter load any day.

-Dave-
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: HSakols on May 15, 2018, 03:32:27 pm
Quote
I criticized Sony mirrorless because while it had a diminutive body, their full frame lenses were quite large. I now own Sony gear and its large lenses, and have come to the realization that the best reasons for mirrorless are the EVF and its options for magnification for manual focus, the lack of a mirror for accuracy of focus and a whole bunch of others. You can't beat physics (usually).
  This is a good point.  But yes, full frame lenses are still heavy!  When comparing the Nikon d850 with 24-120 and compare it to the sony with 24-105 the weight difference is less than a pound.  Mirror slap is something I could do without especially with my D800.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: kers on May 15, 2018, 03:42:52 pm
There is a chance it will have a curved sensor and a new bajonet...
( according to Nikon rumours)
A curved sensor would mean better lenses with a more simple architecture; smaller.
Combined with a non lagging good EVF it could bring something extra on the table.
Title: Nikon’s new mirrorless system ... I doubt with curved sensors
Post by: BJL on May 15, 2018, 05:29:44 pm
A curved sensor would mean better lenses with a more simple architecture; smaller.
It would also ruin in any backward compatibility with existing lenses (unless some fancy optical adaptor could fix that) so I am skeptical.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system ... I doubt with curved sensors
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 15, 2018, 07:10:37 pm
It would also ruin in any backward compatibility with existing lenses (unless some fancy optical adaptor could fix that) so I am skeptical.

Most significantly non Nikon ones.

But then again, Nikon may decide that performance is the most important thing. Considering that they have arguably the best engineering team of any camera company, it would make sense for them to just go what the heck and release a camera that nobody else can release.

They have done that with DSLRs with the D850, they may just go the high route and believe in their skills.

Future will tell.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: davidgp on May 16, 2018, 03:22:05 am
There is a chance it will have a curved sensor and a new bajonet...
( according to Nikon rumours)
A curved sensor would mean better lenses with a more simple architecture; smaller.
Combined with a non lagging good EVF it could bring something extra on the table.

I don’t remember where I read one camera engineer (don’t remember which manufacturer) saying that zoom lenses are problematic if not imposible for curved sensors... maybe I remember wrong...




http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Nikon’s new mirrorless system: curved sensors are for a single focal length
Post by: BJL on May 16, 2018, 11:57:40 am
I don’t remember where I read one camera engineer (don’t remember which manufacturer) saying that zoom lenses are problematic if not impossible for curved sensors... maybe I remember wrong...

http://dgpfotografia.com
Good point! All the recent patents relating to curved sensors (I have seen them from both Nikon and Sony) are for fixed focal lengths; in fact they are all for normal or wide FOV.  As I understand it, the idea is to simplify the lens deign by making little or no correction of field curvature, and then match the sensor's curvature to that field curvature.  But uncorrected field curvature is about inversely proportional to focal length, so a wide range of focal lengths would require different sensor curvatures.

My guess is that these curved sensor designs are for things like security cameras, phone cameras, web-cams, backing-up cameras in cars and all the billions of small cheap camera modules in our ever increasing array of "smart" devices; cameras with a single lens of a single focal length.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system ... I doubt with curved sensors
Post by: fredjeang2 on May 17, 2018, 10:04:52 am
Most significantly non Nikon ones.

Considering that they have arguably the best engineering team of any camera company...
?!?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system: curved sensors are for a single focal length
Post by: BJL on May 17, 2018, 11:24:24 am

My guess is that these curved sensor designs are for ... cameras with a single lens of a single focal length.
I just learnt of an early, fun example: the Kodak Brownie 127, which compensated for its very simple lens by curving the film!
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 23, 2018, 10:36:34 am
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/05/22/nikon-mirrorless-camera-rumors-update.aspx/

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 29, 2018, 06:12:34 pm
Who wants to bet that this new Leica mirrorless will feature the exact same sensor Nikon will use in their upcoming FF mirrorless?

https://leicarumors.com/2018/05/28/new-leica-mirrorless-camera-to-be-announced-in-june-leica-c-m.aspx/

You’ve got to be impressed by the strange tribulations of destiny. Nikon started as a manufacuter of superior rangefinder lenses doing better than Leitz for less money. And here we are, 50 years later, with the 2 brands likely to be closer than they ever were, competing neck to neck for the top spot in Premium mirrorless offerings.

At least if my guess is right.  ;D

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on May 30, 2018, 02:36:34 am
I think a lot of wishful thinking here. Nikon doesn’t even have a camera yet and already it’s competing for top spot.

I just hope it’s good. No one wants to see Nikon fail. And they have to compete with Sony’s plans to spend 9 billion over the next few years on development.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 30, 2018, 02:47:00 am
I think a lot of wishful thinking here. Nikon doesn’t even have a camera yet and already it’s competing for top spot.

I just hope it’s good. No one wants to see Nikon fail. And they have to compete with Sony’s plans to spend 9 billion over the next few years on development.

No wishful thinking as I don't especially wish for this scenario to unfold. ;)

But it would be plain stupid for Nikon and Leica not trying to fight for the top spot since they are releasing products way after their competitor. What sense would it make to release something inferior?

The same applies to Canon of course, but this wasn't the point of my post that was focusing on the sensor provider as you understood of course.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on May 30, 2018, 03:10:48 am
I have a very close friend who is heavily invested in Nikon gear. We are working on a collaborative project and there are times when a mirrorless camera would be a big help. He tried the Fuji system and didn’t get along with it. Currently he is using the 850 and I know he is hoping the new Nikon will fit his requirements.

 I really hope so as well. There are times when the big 850 is a real hinderance, lovely as it is. Think hours and hours walking up and down a busy street with a fair bit of personal risk involved in terms of crime. I use an apsc 6500 with three tiny primes. Guess who feels most vulnerable.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 30, 2018, 03:29:53 am
I really hope so as well. There are times when the big 850 is a real hinderance, lovely as it is. Think hours and hours walking up and down a busy street with a fair bit of personal risk involved in terms of crime. I use an apsc 6500 with three tiny primes. Guess who feels most vulnerable.

There are certainly cases where a more compact camera helps get the shot and mirrorless associated with the right lenses can clearly help achieve this.

Now, I would not expect the Nikon mirrorless to be cheap. I would instead expect it to sell for 2,500~3,000 US$. ;)

Another thing is that today going mirrorless isn't as much about a rationale set of measurable advantages as it is about hype. You are mirrorless your'in, you are DSLR, you'r out.  ;D

The good old DSLRs still have superior AF, a much wider set of lenses, shooting experience is overall still much nicer with OVFs,... and still take better pictures in a majority of sitations, but this isn't relevant anymore it seems.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on May 30, 2018, 04:25:56 am
Can’t really argue with much that you say. When I’m using the full frame Sony it feels like a DSLR to me. Focus is 100% fine for my use. Feels in the hand a bit like an old slr so it’s just another camera really. I do see some advantages beside the size. I like the customisable viewfinder. Ability to easily use 30 year old glass. That sort of thing. What I’m shooting happens so quickly and often in poor light the EVF is actually easier for me. Boosting the signal for really dark places gets noisy but still more usable  than OVF. Then there is in body stabilisation. Also useful. But it’s a camera. No more or less. I don’t really get the mirrorless hype myself. I understand it’s the future for all sorts of reasons but so what

Tell you what is lovely though. Using an APSC and FF where you can swop lenses between and it’s a seamless thing. I use a 500 mm Minolta mirror lens on the 6500 I get stabilisation with 24mp at the equivalent of 750mm. Can then swop it to the Sony A7 and get 42 MP. I don’t buy the 6 stops with IBIS at all. It’s rubbish

I hear people go on about balance with bigger bodies and I don’t buy it. One chap sold off his A7 because it’s too small. Same man successfully uses a phone and you couldn’t get the TV remote off him even if you broke both thumbs. How does he manage that?  Big lens on small body you just hold it different. If it’s all about balance explain an 850 with a nifty fifty and then with a 400mm fast lens. They can’t both balance now can they.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 30, 2018, 05:48:55 am
I find the ergonomics of the a7/a9 to be ok, not great but it would certainly not prevent me from buying one.

If compactness, silent shooting or IBIS were important for me I would own either already.

For the rest what I currently own still perforns better I believe.

The future will tell. If I am not convinced by Nikon’s mirrorless offering I’ll most probably go Sony or even Canon. Brand isn’t relevant. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Rob C on May 30, 2018, 09:33:11 am
Can’t really argue with much that you say. When I’m using the full frame Sony it feels like a DSLR to me. Focus is 100% fine for my use. Feels in the hand a bit like an old slr so it’s just another camera really. I do see some advantages beside the size. I like the customisable viewfinder. Ability to easily use 30 year old glass. That sort of thing. What I’m shooting happens so quickly and often in poor light the EVF is actually easier for me. Boosting the signal for really dark places gets noisy but still more usable  than OVF. Then there is in body stabilisation. Also useful. But it’s a camera. No more or less. I don’t really get the mirrorless hype myself. I understand it’s the future for all sorts of reasons but so what

Tell you what is lovely though. Using an APSC and FF where you can swop lenses between and it’s a seamless thing. I use a 500 mm Minolta mirror lens on the 6500 I get stabilisation with 24mp at the equivalent of 750mm. Can then swop it to the Sony A7 and get 42 MP. I don’t buy the 6 stops with IBIS at all. It’s rubbish

I hear people go on about balance with bigger bodies and I don’t buy it. One chap sold off his A7 because it’s too small. Same man successfully uses a phone and you couldn’t get the TV remote off him even if you broke both thumbs. How does he manage that?  Big lens on small body you just hold it different. If it’s all about balance explain an 850 with a nifty fifty and then with a 400mm fast lens. They can’t both balance now can they.


1. Swapping from format to format: I use both the D200 and D700 bodies, and that gives you the swap in effective focal lengths.

2. 500 Reflex. It was and still is one of my best-loved lenses but so demanding of specific subjects (water) in order to reveal itself at its most useful (to me).

The snap was taken using a very glam Rowi that arrived in the Bahamas with one totally shattered leg joint, courtesy British Airways.

On the plus side, I did learn that a duopod still offers a very useful upgrade to a mono! This was originally Kodachrome 64 Pro on Nikon F or F2.

It was a lot easier doing that with a split-image screen than with the screen on either of my two digital Nikons. Using the green focus dot under the image is okay if there is no movement, but nowehere as good as the old splits! Small apertures didn't seem to cause too much of a problem with black halfs on splits.

One massive advantage of the digital era, though, with those slow 8/500mm things, is the variable and useful higher speed ratings.

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on May 30, 2018, 09:59:54 am
Funny lens is it not Rob? Yes the old focussing screen argument. Man I loved them. I was looking through the old SRT101 last week. That split screen surrounded with the course fresnel circle. It worked so well. Remember that ghost image thing on rangefinders? Liked that too.

What really helps on mirrorless is the ability to rapidly magnify the view to check focus and also focus peaking. That kills OVF in my opinion. And yes it’s my opinion so please don’t tell me it’s wrong. It’s entirely subjective. If more people knew the difference between objective and subjective things this would be a far less combative place.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system ... I doubt with curved sensors
Post by: PeterAit on May 30, 2018, 10:00:32 am
It would also ruin in any backward compatibility with existing lenses (unless some fancy optical adaptor could fix that) so I am skeptical.

Is that true? I was under the (perhaps mistaken) impression that  for any lens, the surface of "perfect" focus was always spherical. No?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system ... I doubt with curved sensors
Post by: EricV on May 30, 2018, 12:26:08 pm
Is that true? I was under the (perhaps mistaken) impression that  for any lens, the surface of "perfect" focus was always spherical. No?
By itself, a simple lens does produce a curved surface of best focus, when imaging a flat object.  But camera lenses are far from simple, and a major design goal is correcting field curvature.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on May 30, 2018, 03:23:21 pm
Another thing is that today going mirrorless isn't as much about a rationale set of measurable advantages as it is about hype. You are mirrorless your'in, you are DSLR, you'r out.  ;D

The good old DSLRs still have superior AF, a much wider set of lenses, shooting experience is overall still much nicer with OVFs,... and still take better pictures in a majority of sitations, but this isn't relevant anymore it seems.

Hi Bernard, just to try to clarify a bit personal preferences from facts:

* Superior AF: just doesn't hold true anymore. Last A9 and A7 III are very competitive and even superior to DSLR's AF in some areas (wider and finer AF coverage, eye AF which social photographers are simply loving).

AF tracking on A7 III:
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/910/42213072032_0883728519_c.jpg)

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/905/40232561320_852dd82e96_c.jpg)

* Wider set of lenses: still true but in few cases decissive. For manual focus applications you can adapt almost any lens (I can use zero-D Canon 24mm TS on my Sony, you can't on your Nikon :) ). Lens range is getting wider specially now that Sigma and Tamron entered the E-Mount game.

* OVF vs EVF: just a matter of personal taste. I even prefer my old Olympus VF-3 EVF over any OVF because it allows me to forget about metering, something I always found distracting and uninteresting.

* Better pictures DSLR in a majority of situations: I would just say that in most situations both systems at equal price range provide the same quality, and would add that there are more niche situations where mirrorless are better than DSLR than the opposite (street photography, silent shooting, high speed electronic shutter as ND filter, legacy lenses IBIS).

Regards
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Telecaster on May 30, 2018, 04:23:09 pm
Another thing is that today going mirrorless isn't as much about a rationale set of measurable advantages as it is about hype. You are mirrorless your'in, you are DSLR, you'r out.  ;D

The good old DSLRs still have superior AF, a much wider set of lenses, shooting experience is overall still much nicer with OVFs,... and still take better pictures in a majority of sitations, but this isn't relevant anymore it seems.

C'mon, this is fanboy silliness. A wider range of camera tech options is a good thing. VF choice is a matter of taste.

-Dave-
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 30, 2018, 05:16:10 pm
C'mon, this is fanboy silliness. A wider range of camera tech options is a good thing. VF choice is a matter of taste.

Honestly I think it is just the opposite.

I am fully in favor of the mirrorless development and have nothing against it. I am just saying that the hype is overall a bit ahead of the reality. Yes, there are certainly use cases where an a7rIII/a9 is ahead of the D850, but I believe it remains a minority.

I have shot with these cameras, I like them overall, but I have a hard time imagining that a majority of people prefer the EVF experience over the OVF one. EVF do have objective advantages in some case but, again overall, I believe that the OVFs are far more enjoyable still.

I believe this to be an objective assessment, even if it is of course based on me.

But yes, if just preferring one option over an another makes you a fanboy, I guess that I am still a DSLR fanboy at the moment.

If preferring an option over another ignoring facts makes you a fanboy, my view is that some posters in this thread are more mirrorless fanboys than I am a DSLR one. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Manoli on May 30, 2018, 06:23:51 pm
I am fully in favor of the mirrorless development and have nothing against it. I am just saying that the hype is overall a bit ahead of the reality.

Honestly, Bernard, you do keep bangin' away at that old drum.
There are two fields in which DSLR's are still more prevalent - Fashion and Sports.
For the rest mirrorless clearly has the momentum.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 30, 2018, 06:40:53 pm
Honestly, Bernard, you do keep bangin' away at that old drum.
There are two fields in which DSLR's are still more prevalent - Fashion and Sports.
For the rest mirrorless clearly has the momentum.

Hum... I still prefer the ISO64 mode of my D850 for landscape as well as the superior color rendering and quite a few other things as well (better weather sealing that works, the ability to display in parallel 2 parts of an image for T/S shooting, better battery life in the field,...), so I have to disagree your assessment is an objective one.

The a7rIII is an excellent landscape camera, but there is no objective fact supporting the proposition that it is the best option today.

Will the a7rIV be superior to the D860? There are many reasons to think it will be, but I am taking pictures with cameras available today, not with a potentiality for future superiority. ;) This is why I keep saying the same thing... the a7rIII is an amazing and very desirable camera. It offer the best bang for the buck per gram and per cubic inch... but it is being overhyped a bit when described as the best available option today. Besides, by the time the a7RIV is out, we will have options from Canon and Nikon on the table as well and it will not be any longer about mirrorless vs DSLR but about comparing various mirrorless options.

And overall, I am not even speaking about the ability to get access to some unique lenses with fully working AF functionality. I could simply not have taken this image with an a7rIII. Close yes, but not exactly the same rendering. Now we can of course discuss whether close is good enough or not, but I see no value in regressing at this point just for the sake of being on the trendy momentum train.

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/897/28556189618_ce2380332d_h.jpg)
D5 + 200mm f2.0 at f2.0 / the 10 years old version

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Manoli on May 31, 2018, 02:50:09 am
Hum... I still prefer the ISO64 mode of my D850 for landscape as well as the superior color rendering and quite a few other things as well [...] so I have to disagree your assessment is an objective one.

Bernard - all valid points , for 'you'. but I didn't refer to 'objective' advantages/disadvantages which ultimately are personal decisions - what I said was that 'mirrorless has the momentum' (IBIS, FP, eye auto focus, silent shooting ... ) - not my opinion more empirical observation.

Wonderful shot by the way. More down to your daughter rather than the 200/f2 Nikkor ...
Although try pointing that bazooka at her when she's a teenager and see how appreciative she'll be  [/clin d'œil]
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Manoli on May 31, 2018, 03:08:24 am
That shot may just be the perfect advertisement for Eye AF.
Zoom in and you'll see that the plane of focus is on the wisps of hair above her left eyebrow and the tip of her nose. Her chin is already out-of-focus. When you play with such razor-thin DOF (a big focus aid for any DSLR), you're tempting fate..

Still a wonderful shot of an even more wonderful daughter, though.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on May 31, 2018, 03:31:38 am
Personally I choose EVF over OVF. It’s not even close. I don’t really get the “enjoy” experience thing Bernard. Taking a photo I’m looking at focus, balancing compositional elements and engaging with the subject. I enjoy the process but I barely notice the viewfinder. Info. That’s what I want. Histogram bottom right for a quick check, focus peaking if I’m manual focussing. Camera level. That’s it.

You say it’s objectively better in your opinion. Is that not contradictory? If it’s your opinion it’s not objective. It’s subjective.

But anyway. I hope Nikon hit it out the park.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: SrMi on May 31, 2018, 04:07:28 am
As a regular user of mirrorless and DSLRs, I also prefer OVFs. To me, the problem of EVFs is that it adds an additional layer between me and the subject, alienating the subject from me and removing the emotional element in the photography. I dislike the possible overlays on EVFs (histogram, horizon, etc) as they block the view. I dislike the lack of detail in shadows and low resolution when compared to OVF. I dislike the (occasionally occurring) wrong colors. Some advantages I see in EVFs are: the possibility of magnification for manual focus; large/bright viewfinder even with small sensors and closed aperture.
I will continue using both DSLRs and mirrorless cameras as I often care more about the available lenses than the bodies.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 31, 2018, 04:34:15 am
Still a wonderful shot of an even more wonderful daughter, though.

I know, she is cute (sometimes)! ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 31, 2018, 04:41:40 am
Personally I choose EVF over OVF. It’s not even close. I don’t really get the “enjoy” experience thing Bernard. Taking a photo I’m looking at focus, balancing compositional elements and engaging with the subject. I enjoy the process but I barely notice the viewfinder. Info. That’s what I want. Histogram bottom right for a quick check, focus peaking if I’m manual focussing. Camera level. That’s it.

You say it’s objectively better in your opinion. Is that not contradictory? If it’s your opinion it’s not objective. It’s subjective.

EVF are clearly superior at delivering most information, no doubt.

Now, there is one - in my view essential - piece of information EVF are objectively worse at compared to OVFs, it is to display the subject you are trying to photograph as it is.

To me, who has the assumed luxury of shooting for pleasure (although I pretty much treat each image I shoot as if there were a paying client waiting for the shot), viewing a subset of a scene in a viewfinder is the base and the core of photography. It is a key reason why I like shooting.

I agree that calling this aspect important is subjective, but I still think that the superiority of the OVF along this axis is objective.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Rob C on May 31, 2018, 05:13:05 am
This is becoming far more interesting and wide-reaching a "debate" than anything just touching upon photography: Bernard states one view on OVFs, to be instantly contradicted by other, opposing views, informing him that his view is just subjective. Now the question is, regarding the opposition, in whose mind and at which elevated stage of development of said mind, does subjectivity also attain the status of a legitimate objectivity?

For the record, I have only looked through one photographer's EVF and was publically and politely impressed but personally informed that it would never be my choice. It was either a Sony or Fuji - I can't remember which.

On 135 format flm, I loved all my Nikons from F to F4 regarding viewfinders (the F4 had terminal issues with loading); on digital, the D200 screen is tiny, and with the magnifier is improved, but there are times when I can't read the info. under the image because of daylight. The D700, again with its magnifier is, to me, perfect, as long as I use the two af lenses in the armoury. With my manual lenses, it can't really get near the film Nikons for ease of focussing, but I do have to factor in my older eyes.

As for the critique on the shot of Bernard's pretty daughter, and on which lash the goddam lens is focussed, that's so bloody banal as well as anal, that it surprises me to read it here. At f2, would anyone expect the contours of the human face to be sharp all over? It's impossible, unless using a head-clamp and a Gitzo, to put the desired subject plane into perfect alignment with sensor plane. Anyway, I can't imagine anyone doing portraits professionally, would decide to opt for f2. Bernard using that aperture is fine, because it lets him experiment with and enjoy a lens that's expensive and pretty wonderful, too - I only wish I could justify such a purchase. But as realistic technique for portraiture, it is nothing but a gimmick; an expensive, cheap photographic trick.

The other thing here that puzzles me is this: why would anyone want to see all sorts of other, distracting displays surrounding or even on top of the viewfinder image? After the novelty of chimping wore off (rapidly), I must admit that the only times that it rises to the surface as a possibility is when I want to work inside a room whilst pointing toward a subject backlit by a window. My reality has been that apart from such situations, always problematic, there is absolutely no need to look at a histogram or a representation of the file ever again until it's in the computer. Nikon's Matrix metering is accurate enough, and the camera's DR broad enough to make all this fine-tuning beloved of geeks in here quite pointless from a final image point of view. Heysoos, just shoot the friggin' picture and forget the mechanical foreplay! You'll end up sleeping either way.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on May 31, 2018, 05:23:58 am
EVF are clearly superior at delivering most information, no doubt.

Now, there is one - in my view essential - piece of information EVF are objectively worse at compared to OVFs, it is to display the subject you are trying to photograph as it is.

To me, who has the assumed luxury of shooting for pleasure (although I pretty much treat each image I shoot as if there were a paying client waiting for the shot), viewing a subset of a scene in a viewfinder is the base and the core of photography. It is a key reason why I like shooting.

I agree that calling this aspect important is subjective, but I still think that the superiority of the OVF along this axis is objective.

Cheers,
Bernard

And there we get to the crux of it. To see the thing as it is I look at the thing. I don’t look through the viewfinder at all. The viewfinder is to make technical decisions based on the info displayed and to place compositional elements and frame. I feel no need or desire to see the scene at it is in the viewfinder. That concept is entirely meaningless to me. I love to look at things and watch things. I will look for a long time before lifting the camera if time is available. I want the viewfinder to show me as close to what the photo will be as it can. Not the thing as it is.

I’m not saying it’s wrong or right. Looking at things through a camera for me is. Who decides enjoyment or not enjoyment. It is just what it is. Jeez but that sounds more like Zen Buddhism than photography but anyway.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 31, 2018, 05:55:18 am
And there we get to the crux of it. To see the thing as it is I look at the thing. I don’t look through the viewfinder at all. The viewfinder is to make technical decisions based on the info displayed and to place compositional elements and frame. I feel no need or desire to see the scene at it is in the viewfinder. That concept is entirely meaningless to me. I love to look at things and watch things. I will look for a long time before lifting the camera if time is available. I want the viewfinder to show me as close to what the photo will be as it can. Not the thing as it is.

I’m not saying it’s wrong or right. Looking at things through a camera for me is. Who decides enjoyment or not enjoyment. It is just what it is. Jeez but that sounds more like Zen Buddhism than photography but anyway.

I just hope that a day will come when EVFs will be able to please both of us. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 31, 2018, 06:03:53 am
Bernard using that aperture is fine, because it lets him experiment with and enjoy a lens that's expensive and pretty wonderful, too - I only wish I could justify such a purchase. But as realistic technique for portraiture, it is nothing but a gimmick; an expensive, cheap photographic trick.

Comon Rob, I paid less than 2,631 euros for this like new second hand copy of the lens in Tokyo... and I will probably be able to sell it for nearly the same amount in 5 years in Europe. That's free rental.  ;D

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on May 31, 2018, 06:06:31 am
I just hope that a day will come when EVFs will be able to please both of us. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Sony have just announced a new EVF that has a 25% increase in resolution. Perhaps the new Nikon will end up with that unit. One thing is for sure. OVF will not be improving. EVF will be.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Manoli on May 31, 2018, 06:07:22 am
As for the critique on the shot of Bernard's pretty daughter, and on which lash the goddam lens is focussed, that's so bloody banal as well as anal, that it surprises me to read it here.

If you understood the difference between an observation and a critique you wouldn't have managed to so spectacularly miss the point and go off on yet another rant.  It's relevant only in the context of (mirrorless) Eye AF v DSLR AF only. One will focus, and follow focus, on the eye (duh!) the other on an area of sharp contrast unless specifically targeted elsewhere - hence the 'raison d'être' of SONY developing Eye AF.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 31, 2018, 06:10:21 am
If you understood the difference between an observation and a critique you wouldn't have managed to so spectacularly miss the point and go off on yet another rant.  It's relevant only in the context of (mirrorless) Eye AF v DSLR AF only. One will focus, and follow focus, on the eye (duh!) the other on an area of sharp contrast unless specifically targeted elsewhere - hence the 'raison d'être' of SONY developing Eye AF.

Eye AF was on on the D5 btw.  ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 31, 2018, 06:16:01 am
Sony have just announced a new EVF that has a 25% increase in resolution. Perhaps the new Nikon will end up with that unit. One thing is for sure. OVF will not be improving. EVF will be.

Yes, perhaps but Epson was apparently leading the pack for EVFs (the Leica SL appears to be using an Epson part), it will be interesting whether they can do even better than the Sony part. Seems likely since the SL is 2 years old.

I'd be a bit surprised if Nikon used a Sony part but this isn't impossible.

I still think that it would make more sense for Nikon to help a Sony competitor develop the technology just like they did for the D850 sensor.

Btw, this was little commented, but they have done what most people were 100% sure was impossibe with the D850 sensor... which is to get their hand on a sensor from another source as good (and I would dare to say better colorwise) as Sony's.

So they may follow the same strategy for EVFs.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Manoli on May 31, 2018, 06:24:14 am
Eye AF was on on the D5 btw.  ;)

Well, on a 200/f2 that's something of a torture test anyway and I don't think one should draw any definitive conclusions either way   :)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Rob C on May 31, 2018, 08:01:05 am
If you understood the difference between an observation and a critique you wouldn't have managed to so spectacularly miss the point and go off on yet another rant.  It's relevant only in the context of (mirrorless) Eye AF v DSLR AF only. One will focus, and follow focus, on the eye (duh!) the other on an area of sharp contrast unless specifically targeted elsewhere - hence the 'raison d'être' of SONY developing Eye AF.



So, you get wonderful  eye-detection: now, when not back in that theoretical head-clamp to which I referred, and unless the person is absolutely square to the camera, which eye are you gonna select? Always the closer? You ask the model to look this way, then the other then back a bit: what's the af gonna think? It's one pf the best reasons to have an OVF and one the larger the better, because you can see what's going down on the screen and, guess what, choosing the bridge of the nose instead will sometimes get you a better DOF depending on the angle of the face to camera! Tell the eye-detector that. It's why the 500 Series 'balds were better than Nikon for that kind of work: you saw in real time and in real space.

Another poster mentioned that his technique eschewed using the viewfinder as anything but a frame, preferring to see the object instead. Trouble is, that's not how the lens ever see the subject. At least with a larger OVF you can stop down to the taking aperture and in reasonable light, get a pretty good idea if WYSIWY're getting. Worse off with a non-reflex, until you decide to enter the image via an EVF.

Of course, if you are speaking of focus via DOF scales or guestimation, that's another ballgame. Perfect, in fact, for the Street Section.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: KLaban on May 31, 2018, 10:22:50 am
I switched from film to digital some ten years ago and have since owned two digital systems, one with the best OVF on the market and the other with possibly the worst EVF on the market.

Apart from the obvious caveat of horses for courses I'm perfectly happy using either.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Rob C on May 31, 2018, 10:53:00 am
I switched from film to digital some ten years ago and have since owned two digital systems, one with the best OVF on the market and the other with possibly the worst EVF on the market.

Apart from the obvious caveat of horses for courses I'm perfectly happy using either.


Doesn't count: you are not an obsessive.

:-)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: KLaban on May 31, 2018, 11:06:23 am

Doesn't count: you are not an obsessive.

:-)

That's not what my wife would have you believe.

:-)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: chez on May 31, 2018, 11:23:57 am
Sony have just announced a new EVF that has a 25% increase in resolution. Perhaps the new Nikon will end up with that unit. One thing is for sure. OVF will not be improving. EVF will be.

From my perspective OVF went down hill in DSLR’s. The Olympus cameras 40 years ago had better brighter viewfinders than today’s DSLR cameras.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: chez on May 31, 2018, 11:29:54 am


So, you get wonderful  eye-detection: now, when not back in that theoretical head-clamp to which I referred, and unless the person is absolutely square to the camera, which eye are you gonna select? Always the closer? You ask the model to look this way, then the other then back a bit: what's the af gonna think? It's one pf the best reasons to have an OVF and one the larger the better, because you can see what's going down on the screen and, guess what, choosing the bridge of the nose instead will sometimes get you a better DOF depending on the angle of the face to camera! Tell the eye-detector that. It's why the 500 Series 'balds were better than Nikon for that kind of work: you saw in real time and in real space.

Another poster mentioned that his technique eschewed using the viewfinder as anything but a frame, preferring to see the object instead. Trouble is, that's not how the lens ever see the subject. At least with a larger OVF you can stop down to the taking aperture and in reasonable light, get a pretty good idea if WYSIWY're getting. Worse off with a non-reflex, until you decide to enter the image via an EVF.

Of course, if you are speaking of focus via DOF scales or guestimation, that's another ballgame. Perfect, in fact, for the Street Section.

Rob, have you ever used a Sony with eye detection and AF tracking? Seems like you have such a strong opinion on it...must have a lot of experience with it. Otherwise it’s just hot air.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on May 31, 2018, 11:40:13 am
Yes it works very well. Choose a spot focus area then when you eye focus it prioritises the eye in that area. Anyway it’s just an option. If you find it complicated just manual focus. No big deal.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Rob C on May 31, 2018, 12:59:38 pm
Rob, have you ever used a Sony with eye detection and AF tracking? Seems like you have such a strong opinion on it...must have a lot of experience with it. Otherwise it’s just hot air.


Check my post #40.

I have no problems using olde-worlde systems because I know what I'm doing with them, and experience shows me they work perfectly well for my needs.

Folks obsess about this stuff; instead, look at the work of someone like Hans Feurer who has built his reputation since forever with very long lenses for fashion. His focus was always great, and his backgrounds an exercise in blur; however, if you look closely, the bits of the shot that need to be seen clearly, i.e. the clothes, are crisp as is the face. In other words, though he's probably on 300mm and longer, he is using stops far from wide open. That being the practical reality of life, whether the friggin' machine focuses on the eye or the front of the dress makes little difference: it's all sharp. Reality and practical use is what I believe in, not sales gimmick. If you need to track somebody, they will still be sharp if the focussing area is in the relevant plane. Also, if you are further away, the fact of the matter is that depth of focus with a long lens is greater than with a wider one. That is, depth of focus on the sensor, not depth of field at the subject.

In effect, what I'm saying is that yes, I'm sure the new toys work, but they are far from essential, and only if you get your kicks from toys do they matter a hoot.

You'd think photography didn't exist before digital, that wonderful work hadn't happened
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on May 31, 2018, 01:31:05 pm
Hahahahaha. Rob you are such a grumpy old git and and now I find myself agreeing with you completely. I might also be a grumpy old git.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on May 31, 2018, 01:55:40 pm
there is one - in my view essential - piece of information EVF are objectively worse at compared to OVFs, it is to display the subject you are trying to photograph as it is.

And OVF are objectively worse at displaying the subject you are trying to photograph as you are photographing it. In addition to that with an EVF you can see the subject as it is just by lifting your eye.

Regards
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: kers on May 31, 2018, 02:52:36 pm
And OVF are objectively worse at displaying the subject you are trying to photograph as you are photographing it. In addition to that with an EVF you can see the subject as it is just by lifting your eye.

Regards

not with tele lenses
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Rob C on May 31, 2018, 03:26:00 pm
And OVF are objectively worse at displaying the subject you are trying to photograph as you are photographing it. In addition to that with an EVF you can see the subject as it is just by lifting your eye.

Regards


Please, clarify that. I really can't understand what you are telling me. I can't see how an EVF shows you "the subject as it is just by lifting your eye."

Rob
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Rob C on May 31, 2018, 03:31:58 pm
Hahahahaha. Rob you are such a grumpy old git and and now I find myself agreeing with you completely. I might also be a grumpy old git.

Could be, but I doubt it: I am usually older than anybody else I meet.

From the other angle, maybe you make photographs with more interest in the photographs you make, than you have in obsessing about the tools used to make the photographs you make.

;-)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Telecaster on May 31, 2018, 04:14:03 pm
My favorite SLR viewfinder is the one in my Contax Aria (the single film SLR I still use from time to time). It's bright and big with near-perfect eye relief for use with glasses. And it features the focusing screen aids lacking in nearly all D-SLRs.

The same camera also has the most accurate evaluative metering system I've ever used. Hundreds of rolls of Kodachrome 25/64/200 run through it, not to mention all the neg film, and less than a handful of exposure misses that I can remember. It's a shame Kyocera gave up on cameras after the N Digital.

All approaches to cameras and camera subsystems have pluses and minuses. The pluses and minuses have as much to do with us and our particular tastes as with the tech. Like what you like, dislike what you dislike. And chill…

-Dave-
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Rob C on May 31, 2018, 05:45:04 pm
My favorite SLR viewfinder is the one in my Contax Aria (the single film SLR I still use from time to time). It's bright and big with near-perfect eye relief for use with glasses. And it features the focusing screen aids lacking in nearly all D-SLRs.

The same camera also has the most accurate evaluative metering system I've ever used. Hundreds of rolls of Kodachrome 25/64/200 run through it, not to mention all the neg film, and less than a handful of exposure misses that I can remember. It's a shame Kyocera gave up on cameras after the N Digital.

All approaches to cameras and camera subsystems have pluses and minuses. The pluses and minuses have as much to do with us and our particular tastes as with the tech. Like what you like, dislike what you dislike. And chill…

-Dave-


Amen!
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on May 31, 2018, 05:47:59 pm
Please, clarify that. I really can't understand what you are telling me. I can't see how an EVF shows you "the subject as it is just by lifting your eye."

kers can explain it to you.

Regards!

Enviado desde mi PRA-LX1 mediante Tapatalk

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Rob C on May 31, 2018, 06:01:42 pm
kers can explain it to you.

Regards!

Enviado desde mi PRA-LX1 mediante Tapatalk


How confusing!

Tapatalk? No me gusta.

Enviado desde mi iPad.

:-)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on May 31, 2018, 06:41:25 pm
And OVF are objectively worse at displaying the subject you are trying to photograph as you are photographing it. In addition to that with an EVF you can see the subject as it is just by lifting your eye.

Are you talking about the 1/10s when the mirror flips?

What impact does it have on the imaging process since you have already pressed the shutter?

On the last point, I would agree if photography were about capturing reality in an objective way.

Who is the subject and what is the object?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Rob C on June 01, 2018, 04:30:40 am
And OVF are objectively worse at displaying the subject you are trying to photograph as you are photographing it. In addition to that with an EVF you can see the subject as it is just by lifting your eye.

Regards


Well, as you didn't feel like replying to my question to you about this, but hived it off to kers, think on this: no vewfinder is able to give you what the naked eyes see, if only because they see with 3D and most cameras do not. You have lost one dimension out of three before you start thinking about aperture and relative DOF etc.

Truth is, all types of finder have to be a compromise, and you select the type that best suits you and the job, assuming you have the ability to buy enough equipment to make those choices.

Lift your eye away from any kind of finder and what you see is bound to be different to what you saw in/through the camera.

The best path is to stick with the one that you are used to, and that gives you the results you like. Chopping and changing from the latest best thing to the next latest best thing helps only the advertisers and the manufacturers. Much of the time, all the buyer does is waste his money.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on June 01, 2018, 04:30:40 am
Are you talking about the 1/10s when the mirror flips?

No, I'm talking about realtime exposure, white balance/B&W views, about 100% framing not all DSLRs have, about realtime optical correction distortion, about image levering,...

A OVF is the old Word Perfect, an EVF is MS Word:

https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/WYSIWYG

Rob, I don't even participate in any forum which doesn't support Tapatalk, it's like the EVF for me, once I tried it there is no way back to OVFs :D

Regards

Enviado desde mi PRA-LX1 mediante Tapatalk

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Rob C on June 01, 2018, 04:40:09 am
No, I'm talking about realtime exposure, white balance/B&W views, about 100% framing not all DSLRs have, about realtime optical correction distortion, about image levering,...

A OVF is the old Word Perfect, an EVF is MS Word:

https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/WYSIWYG

Rob, I don't even participate in any forum which doesn't support Tapatalk, it's like the EVF for me, once I tried it there is no way back to OVFs :D

Regards

Enviado desde mi PRA-LX1 mediante Tapatalk


Hmmm... I think I see the problem: it's the way you get to the end of the journey that counts for you:

"OVF is the old Word Perfect, an EVF is MS Word"

For me, neither is going to make much difference, because the problem is not the tools, the problem is that I keep hitting the wrong goddam keys. Just like making pictures.

;-(
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: kers on June 01, 2018, 04:48:05 am
Quote
A OVF is the old Word Perfect, an EVF is MS Word:


new is not always better... i realize this more and more...
i liked wordperfect so much better than the moloch MSword.
It is true MS Word 'won' the economic battle
I think it takes now 1 GB on my computer just to write something...
so i can agree with your comparison; We are going to miss the OVF in future...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 01, 2018, 06:02:15 am
No, I'm talking about realtime exposure, white balance/B&W views, about 100% framing not all DSLRs have, about realtime optical correction distortion, about image levering,...

EVFs certainly have these abilities and OVFs don’t, we agree about the facts.

We simply don’t agree about the importance of these facts for photography relative to the ability to see an image the way it is captured by the lens. The subtle patterns in bokeh, the level of reflections on leaves when fine tuning a PL filter, the details in deep shadows or in scintilating skies, the smile of Mona Lisa.

EVFs feel a bit to me like TV reality shows vs real life.

But I admit, this is probably just my own limitations. I have a much easier time imagining a scene in B&W than extrapolating details or tones I don’t see. Or, to be even more accurate I guess, I have more fun doing so.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: adriantyler on June 01, 2018, 08:05:26 am
I liked rangefinders a lot, an Olympus RC I once had got me on to them. Then the Leica rangefinders, never really cared which magnification, loved using them though. Loved looking at pictures on ground glass too, even crummy 6x9, had a screen for my SWC too, loved using that. Loved my Nikon F3 viewfinder, didn't care if it was the HP or the normal one, I even loved detaching it and looking at the tiny ground glass. The other Digital Nikons were fine too. My wife had a Lumix years back, no viewfinder, just a screen and I loved the way I had to adapt to that, I use the Sony now and flip between screen to EVF and have the magnified view on a function button, I feel it's no better or worse than anything else I've used. I'm still seeing an abstract rendition of the Reality". Whatever that is.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: KLaban on June 01, 2018, 08:28:23 am
When I look back I realise I've had very few cameras or systems over the last 50+ years but I do thank the gods that other folk change theirs as often as their underwear. Without these folk there'd be far less investment and inovation by manufacturers and far less choice for all: not to mention all those discarded undergarments which can be had for a comparative song.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 03, 2018, 05:58:43 am
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/06/02/nikon-has-a-new-noct-trademark-for-cameras-and-lenses.aspx/

Things are starting to become clear...

Nikon has apparently chosen their traditional forte, the PJ domain, as the target application for their first FF mirrorless system.

My guess is that it is going to be a mini-D6 with unique lenses for a best ever low light shooting capability thanks the combination of the sensor and uniquely bright lenses.

Based on their recent track record in terms of lens design, we can expect to get a remarkable combination of top notch technical performance and bokeh to die for.

Venturing further in the guessing:
- Z mount with open specs
- 24mp, ISO fully usable up to 25,600, 16 bits pipeline
- New EVF part with low power mode leveraging natural light at day time to enable extended battery life
- the new large opening mount will enable fully circular oof specular highlights with portrait lenses
- 4K video over the full sensor at 120 im/s - ability to downscale video in camera to full HD in lower bit rate for quick sharing over the internet
- raw histogram
- fully water proof body suitable for underwater shooting down to -5m with special lenses (one in roadmap at announcement)
- IBIS
- best in class integration with smart phone (snap bridge 3.0)
- open OS accepting third party in camera apps through new dedicated store

What part of that makes sense?;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Rory on June 03, 2018, 11:16:30 pm
This one is hard to believe:

- best in class integration with smart phone (snap bridge 3.0)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 04, 2018, 12:28:52 am
This one is hard to believe:

- best in class integration with smart phone (snap bridge 3.0)

I know... their track record has been abysmal... ;)

But it is something that is in fact very easy to do... there must be several millions of people on this planet that could at least propose specs better than what they have today... my assumption is that they may be able to find one.  ;D

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: KLaban on June 04, 2018, 01:20:43 am
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/06/02/nikon-has-a-new-noct-trademark-for-cameras-and-lenses.aspx/

Things are starting to become clear...

Nikon has apparently chosen their traditional forte, the PJ domain, as the target application for their first FF mirrorless system.

My guess is that it is going to be a mini-D6 with unique lenses for a best ever low light shooting capability thanks the combination of the sensor and uniquely bright lenses.

Based on their recent track record in terms of lens design, we can expect to get a remarkable combination of top notch technical performance and bokeh to die for.

Venturing further in the guessing:
- Z mount with open specs
- 24mp, ISO fully usable up to 25,600, 16 bits pipeline
- New EVF part with low power mode leveraging natural light at day time to enable extended battery life
- the new large opening mount will enable fully circular oof specular highlights with portrait lenses
- 4K video over the full sensor at 120 im/s - ability to downscale video in camera to full HD in lower bit rate for quick sharing over the internet
- raw histogram
- fully water proof body suitable for underwater shooting down to -5m with special lenses (one in roadmap at announcement)
- IBIS
- best in class integration with smart phone (snap bridge 3.0)
- open OS accepting third party in camera apps through new dedicated store

What part of that makes sense?;)

Cheers,
Bernard

But the size of those lenses...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on June 04, 2018, 01:34:19 am
It’s like someone polled a dozen Nikon loyalists and asked what their dream camera would be then they collated all that and said this is what we expect.

Except someone screws up on the metric to imperial conversion or something  and we ended up with a howitzer sized lens.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 04, 2018, 02:06:57 am
It’s like someone polled a dozen Nikon loyalists and asked what their dream camera would be then they collated all that and said this is what we expect.

What would you expect Martin?

As far as I am concerned, I could write the exact same post about Canon.

Those 2 companies have a very clear target (Sony) and need to differentiate themselves, meaning they need to offer something more than the current top mirrorless top player.

How do you think they are going to do it?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on June 04, 2018, 02:42:21 am
What would you expect Martin?

As far as I am concerned, I could write the exact same post about Canon.

Those 2 companies have a very clear target (Sony) and need to differentiate themselves, meaning they need to offer something more than the current top mirrorless top player.

How do you think they are going to do it?

Cheers,
Bernard

It’s a fun game to play no doubt.

I have features I would like. Don’t really see them being mentioned much so I suppose it’s just me. Would love a diaphragm that slides in front of the sensor when a lens is removed. That large sensor out in the fresh air as it were when you change lenses gives me the creeps. Sony menus are downright humorous. Nikon can nail that, real low hanging fruit. IBIS is a must. I won’t buy another camera without it. I would hope for a camera no bigger than the Sony A7 range. Weather sealing. I have one camera with touch screen and one without. I’m indifferent to it. All the normal mirrorless stuff like silent shooting and so on. Lots of programmable buttons, love that stuff. Takes a while to set up and remember where everything is but once you have it it’s awesome. I don’t shoot very fast glass. Just not my style personally and For my commercial stuff no need for product photography to use very fast glass, so a range of lighter small lenses in the f4 range for zooms and f2.8 for primes. Lens range will be important for people of course. It seems everyone in South Africa that buys a decent camera has a fantasy of spending time in the many game reserves. So long lenses. I don’t care for it myself. I like visiting the reserves and try go once or twice a year but I don’t photograph animals unless they insist by doing something interesting close by.

I’m not a fan of the many dials that Fuji use, its personal of course but I don’t like it, keep it tidy. For the most part I trust Nikon to design and build cameras. They know what’s needed. My big questions are why so long with this and what will it cost?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: scooby70 on June 04, 2018, 07:08:44 am
One thing I'd really love is some lenses built like the old pre AI's or Rokkors but specifically designed for the new mirrorless camera and mounting directly without an adapter.

I'd love to see parallel ranges of fairly compact primes with maybe a f1.4 range and a more compact f2 range. I wouldn't like these to be Sigma Art or Sony GM sized even though being smaller means they're not going to be Art/GM rivalling at f1.x or when pixel peeping, I'd settle for optically good enough and maybe a little characterful at the widest apertures.

Do that and I'd probably sell my A7.

As for all the fan boy dream team world beating wish lists... I'll believe it when I see it :D As for my little wish... sadly it won't happen either but would be a differentiator.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on June 04, 2018, 07:28:42 am
Two years ago my Canon gear was getting long in the tooth. I needed to buy a new body and a few lenses. I don’t change gear often but eventually stuff gets old. It’s even more unusual that body and lenses need replacing around the same time. It gave me the opportunity to reassess and switch systems if needed. I figured mirrorless was going to be the future and Sony dominates that so easy decision.

I cannot imagine Nikon coming up with anything that will make me a noticeably better more successful photographer. I have to be honest and admit my personal bottleneck is not my gear. If I can’t do it with what I have now I doubt the new Nikon will help.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: scooby70 on June 04, 2018, 07:51:07 am
Two years ago my Canon gear was getting long in the tooth. I needed to buy a new body and a few lenses. I don’t change gear often but eventually stuff gets old. It’s even more unusual that body and lenses need replacing around the same time. It gave me the opportunity to reassess and switch systems if needed. I figured mirrorless was going to be the future and Sony dominates that so easy decision.

I cannot imagine Nikon coming up with anything that will make me a noticeably better more successful photographer. I have to be honest and admit my personal bottleneck is not my gear. If I can’t do it with what I have now I doubt the new Nikon will help.

And neither can I so for me it's all about enjoyment.

I can imagine others being excited by eye detect and I can see how that can be a game changer and doubtless there are other things which I don't even know about which people will find to be game changers too and good luck to them but that's just not me :D
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 05, 2018, 07:37:36 am
http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/the-nikon-mirrorless-wish.html

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 03, 2018, 10:41:06 pm
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/07/03/first-set-of-rumored-specifications-for-the-nikon-mirrorless-cameras.aspx/

Looks like this could only be a few weeks away.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 05, 2018, 03:20:12 am
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/07/04/nikon-mirrorless-camera-specs-recap.aspx/

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on July 07, 2018, 09:03:37 am
Fantastic news:
- 25-45 Mpx (no kids game like Nikon 1)
- New mount optimised for mirrorless designs (emphasis in allowing fast primes)
- IBIS!!!
- Great EVF
- 9fps
- Ergonomics

Canon, it's your turn.



Enviado desde mi PRA-LX1 mediante Tapatalk

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Telecaster on July 07, 2018, 04:00:02 pm
F mount adapter? I think they'll need one to grease the wheels of their existing user base.

-Dave-
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 07, 2018, 04:24:25 pm
F mount adapter? I think they'll need one to grease the wheels of their existing user base.

This is also rumored, but I hope they have just focused on designing the very best mirrorless camera they can.

As a F mount user, I just want Nikon to apply to this camera the technical skills/mindset that has enabled them to come up with the best DSLRs and lenses these past 6-7 years. This is how they can help photography move forward.

My D850 and F lenses are still best in class, all I need to know is that Nikon is serious about delivering the best mirrorless solution. If not I’ll go the Sony route.

Somehow I don’t think Canon’s mgt has the guts it takes to deliver a FF mirrorless solution that isn’t mostly designed for their existing DSLRs customers as a complement to their line up. I hope I am wrong.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on July 08, 2018, 04:49:01 am
Somehow I don’t think Canon’s mgt has the guts it takes to deliver a FF mirrorless solution that isn’t mostly designed for their existing DSLRs customers as a complement to their line up. I hope I am wrong.

I have the same feeling. Canon is the only brand which could build their 'new' mirrorless system by simply eliminating the mirror on their DSLR bodies, and SUCCEED!. Surprisingly I see Canon users demanding such a fearless solution.

Regards



Enviado desde mi PRA-LX1 mediante Tapatalk

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on July 08, 2018, 06:55:31 am
A few weeks back I was taking an old 50mm lens off a Minolta SRT 101. Had the camera since 1976. It’s a little thing compared to say the 1DX or Nikon 850. Has a mirror box just like the two DSLR’s and a prism, actually has a lovely viewfinder. I am using the lens on my Sony A7RII. The Sony is also little.

My point is why are the Canikons so huge. Can’t just be the mirror box or prism. The old Minolta has those, and the Sony has all the electronics. The A9 is not much different to the two DSLR’s in capability. Yet so much smaller. Why did DSLR’s get so bloated? How will Canikon manage to match Sony with it’s smaller form factor?

I was watching a press guy on Thursday using a Canon 1DX with a 50mm lens. It looked ridiculous. More like a hand help speed graphic than what was intended when the first 35mm cameras were launched.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Telecaster on July 08, 2018, 03:08:20 pm
My point is why are the Canikons so huge.

Marketing. In the '80s bigger became "better," and cameras gradually followed suit. Then spike driver autofocus bodies with long fat lenses became ubiquitous at sporting events, et voilà!

-Dave-
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Rado on July 08, 2018, 03:11:48 pm
5D like size and ergonomics is exactly what I want from the Canon full frame mirrorless. It suits my hands perfectly. I also hope they keep the EF mount. From my point of view Canon has no reason to compete with Sony on size (if you want a small Canon mirrorless get the M series). I own a Sony A7II body and ergonomically it sucks.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 08, 2018, 05:28:08 pm
A few weeks back I was taking an old 50mm lens off a Minolta SRT 101. Had the camera since 1976. It’s a little thing compared to say the 1DX or Nikon 850. Has a mirror box just like the two DSLR’s and a prism, actually has a lovely viewfinder. I am using the lens on my Sony A7RII. The Sony is also little.

The D850 and 1DX are very different in size and weight.

I find the D850 to have a very manageable size and never found the a7/a9 totally comfortable. It may just be my hand.

I love the idea of being able to only carry an a7 sized device but I didn’t like the experience as much as I had hoped when I started photographing with it.

I believe that the focus on ergonomics highlighted in the current rumors about the upcoming Nikon mirrorless are about that. Many a7r users I know love the performance but are at best ok with the UI. It matters to most handheld shooters.

I used to shoot mostly landscape and found UI totally irrelevant but now that I have grown into different types of photography I must confess that my views about the importance of ergonomics has evolved.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: SrMi on July 08, 2018, 05:41:13 pm
For small sized cameras, I find Lumix G9 form and ergonomics close to ideal:

https://www.apotelyt.com/compare-camera/panasonic-g9-vs-sony-a7r-iii (https://www.apotelyt.com/compare-camera/panasonic-g9-vs-sony-a7r-iii)

I wonder how will Nikon handle on-chip AF. They probably have to implement PDAF, but hopefully with cross-type sensors. It would be great/right if Nikon would give the user an option to always focus wide open instead of at working aperture.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: eronald on July 08, 2018, 07:46:27 pm
A few weeks back I was taking an old 50mm lens off a Minolta SRT 101. Had the camera since 1976. It’s a little thing compared to say the 1DX or Nikon 850. Has a mirror box just like the two DSLR’s and a prism, actually has a lovely viewfinder. I am using the lens on my Sony A7RII. The Sony is also little.

My point is why are the Canikons so huge. Can’t just be the mirror box or prism. The old Minolta has those, and the Sony has all the electronics. The A9 is not much different to the two DSLR’s in capability. Yet so much smaller. Why did DSLR’s get so bloated? How will Canikon manage to match Sony with it’s smaller form factor?

I was watching a press guy on Thursday using a Canon 1DX with a 50mm lens. It looked ridiculous. More like a hand help speed graphic than what was intended when the first 35mm cameras were launched.

You're quite right.

On a dSLR you need the sensor card package behind the lens and then the LCD, and also a motor drive for the mirror and a complex folded optical path for AF.  The result is that a dSLR is always fatter than a bulky motor-driven AF SLR.

With mirrorless, the sensor gets displaced forward in the body, the AF optics and the motor drive disappear. That is why there is some hope that mirrorless bodies can be small, although the lenses still tend to be a bit overlarge with current marketing trends.

Edmund
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: D Fuller on July 08, 2018, 11:56:30 pm
You're quite right.

On a dSLR you need the sensor card package behind the lens and then the LCD, and also a motor drive for the mirror and a complex folded optical path for AF.  The result is that a dSLR is always fatter than a bulky motor-driven AF SLR.

With mirrorless, the sensor gets displaced forward in the body, the AF optics and the motor drive disappear. That is why there is some hope that mirrorless bodies can be small, although the lenses still tend to be a bit overlarge with current marketing trends.

Edmund

Don't forget about power and heat. DSLRs are doing a lot more energy-using stuff (processing and data transport) than SLRS ever did, so they need larger batteries. And all that processing and data transport produces heat, which needs enough mass to conduct the heat away from the sensor where it shows up as noise. As processing becomes more efficient, batteries and heat sinks can scale down, but only so much. Sony's earlier a7-series cameras had serious issues on both of those fronts--battery life and heat-realted shutdowns. That was maybe OK for the NEX-series cameras that were srtictly amateur stuff, but you can re-define your understanding of stress when a camera shuts down on a commmercial shoot because it overheated.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: D Fuller on July 09, 2018, 12:33:31 am
The D850 and 1DX are very different in size and weight.

I find the D850 to have a very manageable size and never found the a7/a9 confortable.

I love the idea of being able to only carry an a7 sized device but I dislike the experience the moment I start photographying with it.

Cheers,
Bernard

I hope Nikon has taken a good look at the Leica SL. The competitive target may be Sony, but there might be more to learn from Leica.

I think a lot of the problems I have with Sony a7 ergonomics stem from the fact that it's just doing too much all the time. I mean there are 107 different autofocus modes and 84 different autoexposure modes, and picture styles for all your Instagram needs, and on and on. There are buttons scattered all over the tiny body that I've never been able to train my fingers to find quickly, and the viewfinder has so many icons to show me all the things its doing that I can forget to look at the subject in front of me.

I've owned two of the Sonys at a time for three years now, and that's still all true for me. I took advantage of Leica's "Test -drive and SL" promotion and found myself comfortable with the fout (unlabeled) buttons in a weekend. And that dedicated button that changes the viewfinder from the EVF to the screen? Pure genius.

I hope Nikon, who has the heritage of great rangefinder cameras and the F3, as well as the D5 and D850, develops a mirrorless that gets out of the way and lets me take pictures. Leica's idea of programmable buttons in places easily found by your fingers is a good one. A button dedicated to the viewfinder is brilliant. A quiet shutter (like a rangefinder), in additon to silent, is a good thing.

Lenses have to be great. They just do. But do they have to be f/1.4? or would a great f/1.8 lens that was smaller work? Autofocus lenses and fast lenses seem to have to be big. Manual lenses can be smaller. Is that OK? I'm not sure. I've been eyeing the Loxia lenses for my Sony. But I've also been looking hard at the Leica SL, because the lenses are great, and I still can't get in love with the Sony.

I would buy the Nikon mirrorless as an addition to my Nikon DSLR, not to replace it. It's going to occupy a different niche (or at least I hope it does). I don't see it replacing the D850 any more than the D850 replaces the D5. Sure, vor some people, the D850 is good enough for sports, but if that's your livelihood, the D5 is your camera.

I really hope Nikon has as clear an idea behind this camera as they do the D5. If they do, it'll be brilliant.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 09, 2018, 12:49:28 am
I would buy the Nikon mirrorless as an addition to my Nikon DSLR, not to replace it. It's going to occupy a different niche (or at least I hope it does). I don't see it replacing the D850 any more than the D850 replaces the D5. Sure, vor some people, the D850 is good enough for sports, but if that's your livelihood, the D5 is your camera.

I really hope Nikon has as clear an idea behind this camera as they do the D5. If they do, it'll be brilliant.

Indeed! We'll probably know in less than a month if the rumors are true. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on July 09, 2018, 02:00:16 am
Fair enough. I wasn’t really debating realive ergonomics of Nikon vs Sony more just about the size. Personally I don’t like the 850 ergonimics. Feels like I’m trying to hammer in a panel pin with a sledgehammer but that is very personal. I’m fine with the Sony. Actually that’s not quite true. It’s my favorite of all time.

I don’t get the complaints about it trying to do to much all the time. It is customizable you know. It’s like saying you don’t like cable TV because of two many channels at one time. Choose what you like. The viewfinder has three screens for the EVF and the LCD also three. Each is customizable. I have no info on the EVF at all but can call up the level by pressing one button if I require it. Simple really.

What I’m reall6 interested in is will Canon and Nikon be able to make small effective cameras. I’m not an engineer and I assume this is partly an engineering issue. I wonder what the problems are that need to be solved.

Anyway I don’t think we should expect a revolution that will make us all better photographers. Just another competent camera is what’s most likely on the way. Hard to imagine Nikon getting it totally wrong. Just as hard for me to imagine something totally revolutionary.  The next big thing will be to go take some photos I think.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 09, 2018, 05:32:10 pm
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/07/09/additional-nikon-mirrorless-full-frame-camera-specifications-af-and-more.aspx/

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: scooby70 on July 09, 2018, 06:16:44 pm
I hope Nikon has taken a good look at the Leica SL. The competitive target may be Sony, but there might be more to learn from Leica.

I think a lot of the problems I have with Sony a7 ergonomics stem from the fact that it's just doing too much all the time. I mean there are 107 different autofocus modes and 84 different autoexposure modes, and picture styles for all your Instagram needs, and on and on. There are buttons scattered all over the tiny body that I've never been able to train my fingers to find quickly, and the viewfinder has so many icons to show me all the things its doing that I can forget to look at the subject in front of me.


Every time I read things like this I wonder if I'm in a different dimension and using a different Sony A7 as in my dimension I can set my A7 or any of my other digital cameras up so that I can look at the clutter free evf and shoot in aperture or manual mode and change the exposure mode (I only use evaluative or spot) or where the focus point is with ease and none of the Friendface stuff ever even thinks about interrupting me as it's all turned off.

Funny how I can do it and hordes of people on line can't.

:D
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: D Fuller on July 09, 2018, 07:08:00 pm
Every time I read things like this I wonder if I'm in a different dimension and using a different Sony A7 as in my dimension I can set my A7 or any of my other digital cameras up so that I can look at the clutter free evf and shoot in aperture or manual mode and change the exposure mode (I only use evaluative or spot) or where the focus point is with ease and none of the Friendface stuff ever even thinks about interrupting me as it's all turned off.

Funny how I can do it and hordes of people on line can't.

:D

Well... I suppose a good part of the problem is that I do very different things with the Sonys at different times. I primarily use the Sonys for video as a second camera or to fly on a lightweight gimbal. Then I want to use one as a still camera and everything has to change—exposure mode, focus mode, focus area, picture profile, display setup. So it’s probably my own personal use case that’s the problem. Perhaps if I set out to do it, I could make some presets that would solve the problem.

The other issue I have is that the various programmable buttons don’t have enough tactical presence for me to find them without looking. Maybe this is down to being too accustomed to the Nikon ergonomics, or I’d think that if it hadn’t been so easy to pick up the Leica.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 09, 2018, 09:02:29 pm
Every time I read things like this I wonder if I'm in a different dimension and using a different Sony A7 as in my dimension I can set my A7 or any of my other digital cameras up so that I can look at the clutter free evf and shoot in aperture or manual mode and change the exposure mode (I only use evaluative or spot) or where the focus point is with ease and none of the Friendface stuff ever even thinks about interrupting me as it's all turned off.

Funny how I can do it and hordes of people on line can't.

Yes. I was with a friend on Sunday. He bought his a7rIII back in may.

We were shooting our kids jumping up an down on some kind of huge plastic trampoline. Since there were many kids, he set out to configure his Sony to capture his son's face for it to be recognized by the face recognition feature (eye AF). After fighting with his menus he found the function after about one minute. He then called his son who didn't come right away. Managed to capture his face only to find out that his son was too far, or that there were too many faces.

End result, zero images captured in 5 minutes.

Probably user error and/or lack of familiarity with the camera, but still, it wasn't a very impressive demonstration.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on July 10, 2018, 01:33:16 am
Yes. I was with a friend on Sunday. He bought his a7rIII back in may.

We were shooting our kids jumping up an down on some kind of huge plastic trampoline. Since there were many kids, he set out to configure his Sony to capture his son's face for it to be recognized by the face recognition feature (eye AF). After fighting with his menus he found the function after about one minute. He then called his son who didn't come right away. Managed to capture his face only to find out that his son was too far, or that there were too many faces.

End result, zero images captured in 5 minutes.

Probably user error and/or lack of familiarity with the camera, but still, it wasn't a very impressive demonstration.

Cheers,
Bernard

That says absolutely nothing about the camera Bernard. I could nail that situation on either of my Sony cameras in less than 15 s and I’m no genius.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 10, 2018, 04:08:22 am
That says absolutely nothing about the camera Bernard. I could nail that situation on either of my Sony cameras in less than 15 s and I’m no genius.

Well, it tells me that the Sony system isn't easy to navigate and that eye AF doesn't work as well as it is sometimes explained.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on July 10, 2018, 04:57:17 am
Well, it tells me that the Sony system isn't easy to navigate and that eye AF doesn't work as well as it is sometimes explained.

Cheers,
Bernard

If one is not familiar with one's new camera, the first thing to do is to learn and practice. So yes, the situation described was user error and user unfamiliarity with the camera. Cameras are complex computers, this is not even new. I remember that the manual for my Canon EOS 7D was hundreds of pages long...

P.S. The link to the rumours page says the new Nikon MILC will ne called... wait for it... Alpha???
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 10, 2018, 05:10:23 am
If one is not familiar with one's new camera, the first thing to do is to learn and practice. So yes, the situation described was user error and user unfamiliarity with the camera. Cameras are complex computers, this is not even new. I remember that the manual for my Canon EOS 7D was hundreds of pages long...

My friend owns his camera for 3 months, uses it regularly and had used these functions a few times already... but sure, it must be him. The Sony menus are known for their ease of navigation. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on July 10, 2018, 05:29:50 am
My friend owns his camera for 3 months, uses it regularly and had used these functions a few times already... but sure, it must be him. The Sony menus are known for their ease of navigation. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Sarcasm is no proof of anything.

One button press allows me to quickly choose focus mode button C1, C2 allows me to immediately select focus zone. Back button focus has a little selector switch, one way is normal focus the other is eye focus. C4 brings up face detect, it’s normally on in may case. Left press on the back wheel is drive speed. Couldn’t be simpler. I can do it in the dark.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 10, 2018, 05:48:24 am
Sarcasm is no proof of anything.

One button press allows me to quickly choose focus mode button C1, C2 allows me to immediately select focus zone. Back button focus has a little selector switch, one way is normal focus the other is eye focus. C4 brings up face detect, it’s normally on in may case. Left press on the back wheel is drive speed. Couldn’t be simpler. I can do it in the dark.

Thanks Martin, I will share with my friend.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: chez on July 10, 2018, 09:56:03 am
Well, it tells me that the Sony system isn't easy to navigate and that eye AF doesn't work as well as it is sometimes explained.

Cheers,
Bernard

Well if I was given a D5 and tried to nail diving Ospreys...I'd struggle with the settings and most likely get zero shots in 1/2 hour. Does that make Nikon system not easy to navigate and the AF on the D5 not work as well as it is sometimes explained?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: chez on July 10, 2018, 10:01:16 am
My friend owns his camera for 3 months, uses it regularly and had used these functions a few times already... but sure, it must be him. The Sony menus are known for their ease of navigation. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

It takes a bit of effort to setup a Sony camera buttons and wheels the way you want, but once done, it's very rare one even needs to go into the menus. I've setup my Sony which does have the eye AF activation attached to a button and basically the only time I need to go into the menus is to format a card.

The complexity of the Sony menu system is exagurated greatly on the net by those that don't use a Sony and just echo what they heard...sort of like you Bernard.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 10, 2018, 02:55:19 pm
It takes a bit of effort to setup a Sony camera buttons and wheels the way you want, but once done, it's very rare one even needs to go into the menus. I've setup my Sony which does have the eye AF activation attached to a button and basically the only time I need to go into the menus is to format a card.

The complexity of the Sony menu system is exagurated greatly on the net by those that don't use a Sony and just echo what they heard...sort of like you Bernard.

I have owned 2 RX100 and one a5100, shot with the a7.

Those are overall very nice cameras delivering great image quality but my first hand experience is that the menus are hard to navigate.

This is obviously not a major issue but the struggle of my friend on Sunday seemed representative of what a non expert user who studied the canera but doesn’t shoot everyday with it may experience. It may be too much camera for him, he may have the same issues with a D5, who knows.

I am a bit amused by the reactions each time someone dares to mention one aspecf of the Sony that isn’t perfect. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Telecaster on July 10, 2018, 05:35:14 pm
No camera is "perfect." Not a single one ever. The real issue here is fanboyism: exaggerating flaws in enemy brand products while downplaying flaws in the products of the brand one cheerleads. The greater the perceived threat from the enemy brand, the greater the exaggeration. The greater the awareness of flaws in one's preferred brand, the greater the downplaying. Thom Hogan just posted a piece at his main site that touches on this. All these cameras are complex and all have issues, issues that can be dealt with.

-Dave-
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 10, 2018, 05:47:44 pm
Indeed Dave (Thom didn't mention UI though ;)).

Even if I have a hard time imagining why anyone would consider a brand an enemy instead of looking at them as potentisl providers of equipment to help one’s photography.

The traditional closed system approach of Nikon and Canon have probably contributed to this which is obviously the greatest contribution of Sony’s mirrorless open mount approach.

Fortunately other companies are smarter and Broncolor does manufacture a bracket to use Profoto strobes with their para modifiers and vice versa.

Users of a given brand who deny obvious flaws do themselves a huge disservice by letting their manufacturer of choice think they are happy about things they should loudly complain about.

I have never been shy about voicing my discontent aboit Nikon’s braindead mirrorless strategy, nor about the lack of suitsble T/S lenses for a loooong time.

The game is opening up now and I see myself moving to Sony or Canon mirrorless solutions. Which is why figuring out which is “the best” has never been more important and usability is one of the factors. We know Sony’s cards and they are excellent. We should know what Nikon can do in a few weeks. Canon remains more of a mystery.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: ErikKaffehr on July 10, 2018, 08:27:24 pm
Hi,

I have been a Sony shooter for many years, but still feel that the menus are hard to navigate.

Best regards
Erik

I have owned 2 RX100 and one a5100, shot with the a7.

Those are overall very nice cameras delivering great image quality but my first hand experience is that the menus are hard to navigate.

This is obviously not a major issue but the struggle of my friend on Sunday seemed representative of what a non expert user who studied the canera but doesn’t shoot everyday with it may experience. It may be too much camera for him, he may have the same issues with a D5, who knows.

I am a bit amused by the reactions each time someone dares to mention one aspecf of the Sony that isn’t perfect. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on July 11, 2018, 12:33:17 am
The menus are hard. I have said so myself many times.

Needing to use menus to change focus area, focus mode, drive speed, iso, face detect,  eye focus or any number of other regularly used things is unnecessary and silly. Cameras usually have some kind of design philosophy, Sony’s seems to be hugely focused at customization and configuration. Buying such a camera and then not bothering to spend time working it out and configuring it makes no sense to me.

First time My friend and I went out shooting after he bought his new 850 he found himself stuck on the side of a mine dump struggling to find a setting he had used with his 810. What annoyed him is it turned out to be in the same place on the 850 as it was on the 810 but he had set that up so many years before he couldn’t remember where to find it. Something to do with bracketing. A setting I don’t use but it’s a part of how he likes to shoot. It never occurred to me to have a go on a public forum about how people are struggling with the 850 menus. His error, we laughed about it, he sorted it out and we all moved on
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 11, 2018, 12:45:47 am
First time My friend and I went out shooting after he bought his new 850 he found himself stuck on the side of a mine dump struggling to find a setting he had used with his 810. What annoyed him is it turned out to be in the same place on the 850 as it was on the 810 but he had set that up so many years before he couldn’t remember where to find it. Something to do with bracketing. A setting I don’t use but it’s a part of how he likes to shoot. It never occurred to me to have a go on a public forum about how people are struggling with the 850 menus. His error, we laughed about it, he sorted it out and we all moved on

You just did though. ;)

I would in fact agree that the Nikon menus could be improved as well. I hope that Nikon leverages the opportunity provided by their new mirrorless to improve things further.

Once users get used to a design (even if it is a bad one), there are always people internally and externally to defend the existing on the ground that people don't like changing.

A major paradigm shift such as the move to mirrorless is the opportunity to improve.

As a long term Nikon user, there many other things I think Nikon could/should improve:
- eye AF on the D850/D5 doesn't work that well,
- I have had cases of condensation in the viewfinder,
- the sharing of images to smart devices with snapbridge is far from optimal
- the thingy used to control the SB5000 wireless flash is an annoyance, this should be built-in
- the AF control switch is had to use without looking at it
- as already mentioned, the menus could be easier to navigate
- when having a strong light from below the camera, there are cases of shading with bright lenses (this can be annoying when shooting panos)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on July 11, 2018, 01:57:43 am
Yep I did. I felt it was excuseable as it was t9 illustrate a point and not really a criticism of Nikons menu system. I’m not very familiar with it to be honest.

It would be a good opportunity for Nikon I suppose. Mirrorless adds a whole other level of possibility in terms of what is displayed where and how. It sure doesn’t reduce complexity, more to learn.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on July 11, 2018, 05:52:30 am
My friend owns his camera for 3 months, uses it regularly and had used these functions a few times already... but sure, it must be him. The Sony menus are known for their ease of navigation. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Honestly, after using Canon, (some) Nikon, Fuji, Olympus, Panasonic, and Sony, every brand has menu idiosyncrasies. Maybe your friend needs more than 3 months to customise the camera to his needs, who knows? Maybe the Sony is not for him.

In the end, with any brand, reading the manual, taking the time to familiarize, and practicing, pays off. If one decides that it is taking too long, then just move on.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: kers on July 11, 2018, 07:06:41 am
In the end, with any brand, reading the manual, taking the time to familiarize, and practicing, pays off. If one decides that it is taking too long, then just move on.

I agree,

Being with Nikon for a long time i understand the menu, but still do not get the idea of the banks...does not work for me...
At the same time i find it works very well and is idiot proof.
The latter is very important and Nikon does a good job making the camera reliable.
and
I only want to learn ONE camera system- and then it has to be a camera that is worth spending much time on it.
If i mix up different cameras i get crazy wil all the little differences.
At the moment i know the Nikon D850 by heart. It can do a lot with it and i can use it blindly and intuitively.
That is what i need.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: KLaban on July 11, 2018, 07:16:11 am
If it needs a manual it's not for me.

;-)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Rob C on July 11, 2018, 07:58:07 am
All digital cameras need some manual - I suppose; the one for my D 700 is thick, but once I learned how to switch everything automatic off, and how to go rapidly between auto and manual metering, there has never been need to consult it except when I had to make use of the little built-in flash to trigger another unit.

I use it like my previous film Nikons. I never even chimp unless in times of shooting against bright exteriors when indoors. Everything else is common sense based on experience. My curiosity is happy to await the computer.

Rob
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 11, 2018, 08:59:47 am
All digital cameras need some manual - I suppose; the one for my D 700 is thick, but once I learned how to switch everything automatic off, and how to go rapidly between auto and manual metering, there has never been need to consult it except when I had to make use of the little built-in flash to trigger another unit.

I use it like my previous film Nikons. I never even chimp unless in times of shooting against bright exteriors when indoors. Everything else is common sense based on experience. My curiosity is happy to await the computer.

Where things can get complicated in the Nikon world is when you start to tap into the full potential of the AF on moving subjects of the D500/D5/D850. Huge potential, but it takes some studying.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Rob C on July 11, 2018, 11:17:47 am
Where things can get complicated in the Nikon world is when you start to tap into the full potential of the AF on moving subjects of the D500/D5/D850. Huge potential, but it takes some studying.

Cheers,
Bernard


I'm sure you're right!

But I look upon photography as something easy to do, always have, and because of that and my real dislike for electronic devices - include the mythical video and DVD recorder - I know that I would not employ those tricks. I never had them before and did just fine with cameras without them.

If Nikon wanted to do me a favour, they would officially enable and provide the D 700 with a split-image focussing screen, preferably without a microprism ring around the split.

I'm a simple soul with simple photographic needs. I don't want to have to learn new languages.

Rob
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Telecaster on July 11, 2018, 04:23:08 pm
Where things can get complicated in the Nikon world is when you start to tap into the full potential of the AF on moving subjects of the D500/D5/D850. Huge potential, but it takes some studying.

I remember the first time I had my hands on a Canon 1DMkIII, digging into the menus to figure out all the AF options. After some 10–15 minutes and a blizzard of parameters to corral I was tempted to throw the thing at the nearest wall. Haven't touched a Canon D-SLR since. Though nowadays I bet I'd find the AF setup process fairly straightforward.  :D

-Dave-
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on July 11, 2018, 05:01:20 pm
I don't want to have to learn new languages.

Cómo llevas tu español Rob? :P
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: hogloff on July 11, 2018, 08:00:22 pm

I'm a simple soul with simple photographic needs. I don't want to have to learn new languages.

Rob

Rob, here is the camera for you...speaks your language.

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: kers on July 12, 2018, 04:03:10 am
At the moment Nikon is mirrorlessless ...

Nikon 1 mirrorless cameras listed as discontinued

https://nikonrumors.com/

- really liked the 1 camera's, but understand the move.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Chairman Bill on July 12, 2018, 04:09:18 am
I'd like a digital back for my old FM. That'd do.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 12, 2018, 04:42:19 am
At the moment Nikon is mirrorlessless ...

Nikon 1 mirrorless cameras listed as discontinued

Hopefully they will very soon be mirrorlesslessless again.  ;D

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on July 12, 2018, 05:55:55 am
Where things can get complicated in the Nikon world is when you start to tap into the full potential of the AF on moving subjects of the D500/D5/D850. Huge potential, but it takes some studying.

Cheers,
Bernard

I would offer that this statement applies to all brands? AF options and menu settings, for moving objects, is complicated:)

And this is an area that brands avoid changing too much in terms of menus and settings, between camera generations; to avoid pros being unhappy with having to relearn the thing.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Telecaster on July 12, 2018, 04:33:29 pm
I had an Instamatic 124 in the early 1970s, back before my dad decided I could be trusted with his rangefinders.  :)  It did the job not too badly considering. Here's a pic of my Aunt Anna & me taken in spring 1973 while visiting family in Florida. Me holding my 124 and looking insolent, Anna with her camera (don't remember the brand or model) and looking regal. (I still have Anna's straw hat and often wear it while working in my garden.)

-Dave-
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on July 13, 2018, 07:51:24 am
 I’m quite fond of my little Nikon1. I think I will start looking a little more actively for extra lenses. Should be cheap as chips now.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Rayyan on July 16, 2018, 04:10:41 am
Most modern cameras can ( or can be setup ) simple.
Certain situations require non-simple ( ? ) camera functions....continuous af tracking eg. just set it once, and ready to go.

My reason for venturing into mirrorless is bulk n weight...which unfortunately is a myth, unless you have one camera n one small prime lens.
I have done that n it has been marvelous.

I shall wait for the Nikon mirrorless. So far with Nikon, I have not found it necessary to read the manual, bar foe some exotic setting for me.

The only video I know of is watching what someone else has done in a movie or YouTube.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: scooby70 on July 16, 2018, 05:12:24 am
Yes. I was with a friend on Sunday. He bought his a7rIII back in may.

We were shooting our kids jumping up an down on some kind of huge plastic trampoline. Since there were many kids, he set out to configure his Sony to capture his son's face for it to be recognized by the face recognition feature (eye AF). After fighting with his menus he found the function after about one minute. He then called his son who didn't come right away. Managed to capture his face only to find out that his son was too far, or that there were too many faces.

End result, zero images captured in 5 minutes.

Probably user error and/or lack of familiarity with the camera, but still, it wasn't a very impressive demonstration.

Cheers,
Bernard

It's not probably user error it's certainly user error in that they weren't familiar with the options and hadn't set the camera up to offer the function easily.

Give someone who's never used a Nikon D850/any other Nikon DSLR before one and expect them to capture action shots in 5 minutes and the result would be exactly the same.

To blame this on the camera is laughable but people will just keep on doing it whilst others will set their gear up and become familiar with it. Which do you think is the intelligent approach and which is the frankly rather silly one?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 16, 2018, 08:51:32 am
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/07/15/one-week-away-from-the-rumored-new-nikon-full-frame-mirrorless-camera-announcement.aspx/

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: davidgp on July 17, 2018, 02:38:51 am
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/07/15/one-week-away-from-the-rumored-new-nikon-full-frame-mirrorless-camera-announcement.aspx/


Looks like quite interesting specs... let’s see next week. Interesting times... even if I don’t plan to buy it.

Anyway... sometimes one wonders who edits those sites... you read phrases like “BSI sensors (supposed to be a new tech with advanced AF).”

Well, BSI sensors are no new tech... several years old now... even with full frame sensors. Being a Nikon focus tech site the guy should have know that the D850 has the same tech... and it has nothing to do with AF.



http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 17, 2018, 06:25:44 am
Indeed, but BSI remains the latest and the greatest, so it is just saying best in class sensor tech.

It is hard to be better than best in class but I agree anyway that the success of this systen will not be driven by a few % in sensor image quality. Usability, AF performance, EVF experience, ability to use existing lenses, lenses quality and roadmap,... will be more important.

Had they not mentionned it they may have been another FUD campaign such as the one that preceeded the D850 release when internet experts here and elsewhere were claiming with 200% certainty that the D850 sensor was going to be mediocre at best. :;

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: 32BT on July 17, 2018, 08:32:33 am
Yeah, the user interaction experience is going to be paramount, which will be in large part about the evf experience, since nikon already understood ergonomics. Evf experience is more intricate then i believe most of us realize; do you capture what you see in the evf which is trailing behind reality? And by how much? How much awareness do you have of reality? Etc...

Well, that and then there is also batterylife...

Batterylife could well be why Canon is going to lose this battle.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Rob C on July 17, 2018, 08:56:57 am
Oscar has a point, but I think battery life is only going to affect those who really, really want tiny. Back in the day, folks like me would buy motor-drives and added battery capacity devices that took maybe eight AA batteries a pop, and weight didn't worry us that much. It was normal.

But one man's normal is his normal, not Everyman's normal. I guess it comes down to how important to you you think your work actually is.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: davidgp on July 18, 2018, 12:50:23 am

Well, that and then there is also batterylife...

Batterylife could well be why Canon is going to lose this battle.

That was a problem for the series I and II of A7 Sony cameras... series III while keeping more or less the same weight, has a bigger battery with longer battery live... now all the people seems happy with its longevity.

I expect Nikon or Canon were paying attention to it and their offering does not have the very poor battery life the first Sony cameras did...



http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: ErikKaffehr on July 18, 2018, 01:26:14 am
Hi,

I don't think it is just about the battery. The A7rII could probably take like 200 pictures on a charge, on the A7rII folks can take 1500 images on a charge.

The main advantage with the A7rIII is probably a new "front side LSI" that handles much of the image processing more efficient than the 'Bionz' processor.

Best regards
Erik

That was a problem for the series I and II of A7 Sony cameras... series III while keeping more or less the same weight, has a bigger battery with longer battery live... now all the people seems happy with its longevity.

I expect Nikon or Canon were paying attention to it and their offering does not have the very poor battery life the first Sony cameras did...



http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: davidgp on July 18, 2018, 01:49:01 am
Hi,

I don't think it is just about the battery. The A7rII could probably take like 200 pictures on a charge, on the A7rII folks can take 1500 images on a charge.

The main advantage with the A7rIII is probably a new "front side LSI" that handles much of the image processing more efficient than the 'Bionz' processor.

Best regards
Erik

Yes, it is also probably much more energy optimize...


http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: 32BT on July 18, 2018, 02:22:23 am

I expect Nikon or Canon were paying attention to it and their offering does not have the very poor battery life the first Sony cameras did...


Yes, let's hope so, though Canon didn't seem to have solved that problem so far.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: 32BT on July 18, 2018, 03:00:58 am

I don't think it is just about the battery. The A7rII could probably take like 200 pictures on a charge, on the A7rII folks can take 1500 images on a charge.


Cipa numbers just show a doubling, but the sleepmode and off-mode strategy may have been improved as well. Obviously it's not all about batterysize alone considering that focusbehavior and IS in body and lenses contribute as well.

1500 shots i take with a grain of salt unless you have a reliable source for it.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on July 18, 2018, 03:08:36 am
1500 images in a single battery with the A7rII?  I don’t thank no I have ever seen that. Lots of stuff affects battery life of course but I think 1500 is too high.

Much gets made of battery life but to me it’s a non issue. Takes a second to change a battery and the things are tiny. I stick a handful in my pocket and shoot all day. In fact I held off changing to the A7RIII because I like using the same batteries on the FF and APSC cameras.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: ErikKaffehr on July 18, 2018, 03:13:48 am
Hi,

Regarding 1500 frames was reported on the A9. But that was probably much shooting at 20 FPS with E-shutter.

Cipa numbers were much lower on that camera, it obviously depends on what you shoot.

My point is that most of the battery life may come from more efficient camera circuitry as folks report much improved battery life, much more than twice.

I have seen a lot statements on this, but it is hearsay mostly.

Best regards
Erik

Cipa numbers just show a doubling, but the sleepmode and off-mode strategy may have been improved as well. Obviously it's not all about batterysize alone considering that focusbehavior and IS in body and lenses contribute as well.

1500 shots i take with a grain of salt unless you have a reliable source for it.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 18, 2018, 03:43:09 am
I fully expect Nikon and Canon to release cameras that will better the a7rIII on most fronts, including battery life.

They fully understand that Sony is the leader with a huge lense line-up and that they must do better to attract customers. At least Nikon with their choice of a new mount can only rely on superior performance. If Canon goes the route of a mirrorless 5DIV then they may be hoping that existing lenses may keep their existing customers on board even if performance is somewhat inferior on some fronts. The usual marketing and sales tactics will probably compensate.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: davidgp on July 18, 2018, 06:43:30 am
I fully expect Nikon and Canon to release cameras that will better the a7rIII on most fronts, including battery life.

They fully understand that Sony is the leader with a huge lense line-up and that they must do better to attract customers. At least Nikon with their choice of a new mount can only rely on superior performance. If Canon goes the route of a mirrorless 5DIV then they may be hoping that existing lenses may keep their existing customers on board even if performance is somewhat inferior on some fronts. The usual marketing and sales tactics will probably compensate.

Cheers,
Bernard


Looking at my magic ball here... that it is usually more wrong than right... I don’t really expect that Canon or Nikon to be better in most fronts... what they really need it is to demonstrate that they are really investing into pushing those cameras... like showing a good lens roadmap... like Fuji is doing...

Although they have an advantage in native lenses... designs for Sony FE from voigtlander, Laowa, tokina manual lenses, Samyang manual lenses and Zeiss Loxia line...

When third party manufacturers reverse engineer the electrical part of the mount, probably you will see Tokina, Tamron, Samyang and Sigma lenses (highly doubt Batis line of Zeiss is adapted... Zeiss never released AF lenses for mounts they could not get the specs from the manufacturer... although rumors say the AF lenses are a Tamron design, so maybe Tamron release them under their brand without Zeiss coatings).

Also, the perspective has changed... it is not that Canon and Nikon need to demonstrate that mirrorless are an interesting option for the future like 5 years ago... Canon and Nikon users will invest in the system if it is good... it does not need to be the best... that can come latter...



http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 18, 2018, 07:50:56 am
As far as I am concerned I see zero value in investing in a Nikon mirrorless camera with a new mount if it isn’t a better camera than the a7rIII.

Why not go the Sony route?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Rado on July 18, 2018, 10:35:40 am
I predict Canon will release a fairly conservative offering that on the paper will not beat Sony's specs, nevertheless in reality will perform solidly and without the stupid gotchas of Sony systems ("which combination of settings throws me into 12bit RAW now?"). I can use my Canon lenses on a Sony (and I do) but I'm waiting for a mirrorless camera body that I actually enjoy using.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on July 19, 2018, 09:40:14 am
As far as I am concerned I see zero value in investing in a Nikon mirrorless camera with a new mount if it isn’t a better camera than the a7rIII.

Why not go the Sony route?

Cheers,
Bernard

I’m curious Bernard. Would you sell your 850to go mirrorless? I don’t think I would. I went mirrorless because my Canon was coming to the end of its life and the lenses also needed to be replaced. I looked around and figured the Sony would be a change and a bit of fun, chip was good enough for my needs and learning something new tends to blow out the cobwebs.

Just wondering. I like mirrorless but it’s an incremental thing I think. I wouldn’t abandone a new 850 for a new mirrorless system. I wouldn’t get out of the 850 to change to Sony if that was my position.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 19, 2018, 04:51:34 pm
Right now I believe that the D850 is still superior to the a7rIII. But it seems clear that the mirrorless technology is maturing quickly and some of the advantages such as better eye AF, and more compact designs, more design freedom for lenses are very powerful, even if the current gen isn’t quite there yet.

So I would first add a mirrorless body and start to build a lens portfolio, probably starting with a 35mm as my first usage would be street photography.

I have considering a Leica M10 many times and gave up on the idea every time because of focus accuracy concerns. The mirrorless body’s first mission will be a Leica alternative.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: chez on July 19, 2018, 06:57:57 pm
I’m curious Bernard. Would you sell your 850to go mirrorless? I don’t think I would. I went mirrorless because my Canon was coming to the end of its life and the lenses also needed to be replaced. I looked around and figured the Sony would be a change and a bit of fun, chip was good enough for my needs and learning something new tends to blow out the cobwebs.

Just wondering. I like mirrorless but it’s an incremental thing I think. I wouldn’t abandone a new 850 for a new mirrorless system. I wouldn’t get out of the 850 to change to Sony if that was my position.

I went mirror less for two reasons:

1.  I was using the 5d2 and Canon just came out with a 5d3 which did not improve the archaic sensor one bit. I looked around at new sensors and Sony had something more capable in the A7R at the time.

2.  I got tired lugging around bulky heavy equipment when I travelled...and as I was about to retire, travel played prominently in my future. I wanted something more compact and lighter.

Sony mirror less fit the bill very nicely. It basically reduced my bulk / weight by almost 1/2 and improved on overall image quality...a real win-win for me. Never really looked back at DSLR's as they are still large and heavy and the image quality might just be on par with the latest Sony sensors.

As far as the D850...if you like to lug that weight around, I see no reason to move away from it. Image quality is on par to the Sony mirror less...but you would not catch me carrying that monster around my wrist for 3 weeks through the heat, humidity and humanity if SEA.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: bassman51 on July 19, 2018, 07:29:32 pm
1500 shots with the e-shutter and even low speed continuous drive should be easy.  Battery life for these cameras depends more on the “On” time, where the EVP and/or LCD are drawing power, than on the number of images. I get 2-3 hours of On time on my EM1.2, and could take thousands of images in that time.  I usually turn the camera off between shots. 

As for the menus: after spending years shooting with the D80/D7009, I failed to be able to setup my friend’s D3100 in a reasonable time.  Menu are all complex, and a different menu is indecipherable to me. Yet I now have my E-M1.2 setup to almost never need the menus at all.  It’s a pleasure. And it drove me crazy for months.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: ErikKaffehr on July 20, 2018, 10:20:09 am
Hi Bernard,

I think your analysis is OK.

Best regards
Erik



Right now I believe that the D850 is still superior to the a7rIII. But it seems clear that the mirrorless technology is maturing quickly and some of the advantages such as better eye AF, and more compact designs, more design freedom for lenses are very powerful, even if the current gen isn’t quite there yet.

So I would first add a mirrorless body and start to build a lens portfolio, probably starting with a 35mm as my first usage would be street photography.

I have considering a Leica M10 many times and gave up on the idea every time because of focus accuracy concerns. The mirrorless body’s first mission will be a Leica alternative.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Alex Waugh on July 20, 2018, 10:08:57 pm
If this camera is being announced on Monday, I'm extremely impressed with the lack of leaked pictures. Apple levels of information security.

My biggest question is whether a vertical grip will be available, as i'm sure Canon and Nikon will both produce a far more ergonomic camera than Sony has managed to do. I'll happily take a hit in sensor performance for a well integrated grip.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 21, 2018, 01:25:59 am
If this camera is being announced on Monday, I'm extremely impressed with the lack of leaked pictures. Apple levels of information security.

My biggest question is whether a vertical grip will be available, as i'm sure Canon and Nikon will both produce a far more ergonomic camera than Sony has managed to do. I'll happily take a hit in sensor performance for a well integrated grip.

I don’t believe in July 23rd, but we will see.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on July 21, 2018, 04:38:26 am
i'm sure Canon and Nikon will both produce a far more ergonomic camera than Sony has managed to do.

I think "far more" is too much for an improvement here. While the A7 ergonomics are for sure improveable, I don't find them far more improveable. The grip is just fine enough for its size, and once you get rid of visiting the menus by configuring all main functions to specific buttons the camera is very joyable. I don't think it's perfect but it's far from bad.

My forecast is that Nikon will make the better overall mirrorless, Sony will keep best quality/price, and Canon will be best at nothing, as usual.

Regards
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Alex Waugh on July 21, 2018, 09:36:55 am
Look, I know this is an overdone topic already so let's not dwell but when I say "Sonys ergonomics are awful", I mean it. I have large hands and between the cheap feeling dials/buttons, small grip area between the lens mount and general shape I find it very, very uncomfortable to hold. I shot an A7ii for 18 months with and without the vertical grip - I honestly think the ergonomics are terrible. Perhaps a 3/10.

Obviously your mileage may vary, I'm only a sample size of one.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on July 21, 2018, 11:39:05 am
Me too. But I recall an interview with a Sony executive. The interviewer asked him if they have plans to design a larger and more ergonomic body (I don't remember if this was after the sports camera A9 was launched), and the Sony executive answered that they had conducted market researchs that showed that the A7 size was the best trade off between camera ergonomics and size/weight. Maybe they were Japanese with shorter hands than western standards.

Regards


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Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: ErikKaffehr on July 21, 2018, 12:21:56 pm
Hi,

I am mostly a tripod shooter...

In general, I see the camera as an imaging device.

Regarding the Sony menu system, I don't like it, but I have not seen a lot of menu systems I liked.

Best regards
Erik




Me too. But I recall an interview with a Sony executive. The interviewer asked him if they have plans to design a larger and more ergonomic body (I don't remember if this was after the sports camera A9 was launched), and the Sony executive answered that they had conducted market researchs that showed that the A7 size was the best trade off between camera ergonomics and size/weight. Maybe they were Japanese with shorter hands than western standards.

Regards


Enviado desde mi PRA-LX1 mediante Tapatalk
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: SrMi on July 21, 2018, 01:43:36 pm
I think "far more" is too much for an improvement here. While the A7 ergonomics are for sure improveable, I don't find them far more improveable. The grip is just fine enough for its size, and once you get rid of visiting the menus by configuring all main functions to specific buttons the camera is very joyable. I don't think it's perfect but it's far from bad.

My forecast is that Nikon will make the better overall mirrorless, Sony will keep best quality/price, and Canon will be best at nothing, as usual.

Regards

IMO: With A7RIII Sony improved ergonomics considerably. However, my Lumix G9 has much better ergonomics than my A7rIII. So, yes, I think it is possible to improve Sony's ergonomics "far more".
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: ErikKaffehr on July 22, 2018, 12:23:32 pm
May be...

But ergonomics make no pictures.  Sensors, cameras and lenses do...

Best regards
Erik

IMO: With A7RIII Sony improved ergonomics considerably. However, my Lumix G9 has much better ergonomics than my A7rIII. So, yes, I think it is possible to improve Sony's ergonomics "far more".
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: KLaban on July 22, 2018, 12:28:14 pm
May be...

But ergonomics make no pictures.  Sensors, cameras and lenses do...

Best regards
Erik

...I'd prefer to think that people do.

;-)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Rory on July 22, 2018, 03:29:48 pm
May be...

But ergonomics make no pictures.  Sensors, cameras and lenses do...

Best regards
Erik

Maybe for landscape photographers. 
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: chez on July 22, 2018, 08:01:02 pm
I feel this whole ergonomics thing is over blown. I use digital cameras made by Canon, Fuji and Sony and film cameras by Canon, Fuji and Tachihara and am productive with all of them. Sure, they are all a bit different, but once you figure out a camera and set it up to how you shoot, they all deliver.

Humans are very adaptable if we let them. For instance, I used to travel a lot for work and rent cars. Every car rented felt weird compared to my own...but after using the car for a couple weeks, things began to feel good...to the point when I got home and climbed into my own car, it feels weird at first.

I find it totally hilarious when we get into menus...for Christ sake, how much time do we spend in these menus...and if we spend more than a miniscule time in a menu while shooting...that system is totally screwed as when you are in a menu...you are not shooting.

The only reason I go into my Sony menus is to format a card...in other words, the system is customized to the point I don't need the menus when shooting.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: davidgp on July 23, 2018, 02:40:56 am
No more rumours, here is the teaser: https://events.imaging.nikon.com/live/en/

https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/these-are-the-first-images-of-the-new-nikon-full-frame-mirrorless/
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on July 23, 2018, 03:27:12 am
I feel this whole ergonomics thing is over blown. I use digital cameras made by Canon, Fuji and Sony and film cameras by Canon, Fuji and Tachihara and am productive with all of them. Sure, they are all a bit different, but once you figure out a camera and set it up to how you shoot, they all deliver.

Humans are very adaptable if we let them. For instance, I used to travel a lot for work and rent cars. Every car rented felt weird compared to my own...but after using the car for a couple weeks, things began to feel good...to the point when I got home and climbed into my own car, it feels weird at first.

I find it totally hilarious when we get into menus...for Christ sake, how much time do we spend in these menus...and if we spend more than a miniscule time in a menu while shooting...that system is totally screwed as when you are in a menu...you are not shooting.

The only reason I go into my Sony menus is to format a card...in other words, the system is customized to the point I don't need the menus when shooting.

Oh thank goodness. I thought it was just me. Something to do with hand holding a Linhof Super Technica and after that everything else felt easy.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 23, 2018, 03:41:05 am
This is becoming exciting.

It seems that the rumors were right all along and that Nikon has chosen to differentiate themselves with the most future proof possible mount with the possibility to design unique lenses. I suspect that we may get lenses with perfectly circular out of focus highlights, uniquely bright lenses,...

In fact, it very much looks like this mount has the same size as that of the GFX and X1D bodies and Nikon may have kept the door open for larger sensors moving forward.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on July 23, 2018, 04:53:20 am
Those prices are very interesting. Please Nikon, don't forget the IBIS and you have a customer prospect here...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 23, 2018, 05:33:57 am
Those prices are very interesting. Please Nikon, don't forget the IBIS and you have a customer prospect here...

Indeed, IBIS would be great to have.

Since VR does contribute to larger and heavier lenses and is also not easily made compatible with very bright glass, I am pretty confident that IBIS is part of this design. The ability to control sensor movement is also needed for the various types of super resolution solutions, so this is another reason why it should be included in a next gen line of camera.

I could be wrong of course. :-)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: KLaban on July 23, 2018, 05:35:50 am
Those prices are very interesting. Please Nikon, don't forget the IBIS and you have a customer prospect here...

Prices?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on July 23, 2018, 05:47:09 am
Prices?
Another price, this time from the UK (body only): 45MP about £2,400, 24MP about £1,700.

https://nikonrumors.com/2018/07/23/more-nikon-mirrorless-camera-rumors.aspx/

Enviado desde mi PRA-LX1 mediante Tapatalk

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: 32BT on July 23, 2018, 06:28:48 am

In fact, it very much looks like this mount has the same size as that of the GFX and X1D bodies and Nikon may have kept the door open for larger sensors moving forward.

Cheers,
Bernard

Or the camera is really small!? ;-)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on July 23, 2018, 06:33:57 am
Or the camera is really small!? ;-)
Looking at the relative large size of the EVF this could be the case; for me that would be good news. Another question that arises is for the lower pixel count (24Mpx) whether Nikon chose a large DR sensor or best high ISO performance like in the D5.

Regards


Enviado desde mi PRA-LX1 mediante Tapatalk

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: KLaban on July 23, 2018, 07:31:36 am
Or the camera is really small!? ;-)

Hopefully.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: davidgp on July 23, 2018, 08:18:08 am
Looking at the relative large size of the EVF this could be the case; for me that would be good news. Another question that arises is for the lower pixel count (24Mpx) whether Nikon chose a large DR sensor or best high ISO performance like in the

I expect something in the line of A7 III for that... really good ISO... up to market DR... no more than that, after all that will be the “cheap” entry level camera. High innovative sensor for it will increase price. Basically anything they will put in a new D750...



http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on July 23, 2018, 10:52:05 am
Maybe it's a bit shorter than the Sony and a bit thicker. In any case, very similarly sized.

(http://www.guillermoluijk.com/misc/nikonmirrorlessff.png)

Regards
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: 32BT on July 23, 2018, 11:09:21 am
Maybe it's a bit shorter than the Sony and a bit thicker. In any case, very similarly sized.

(http://www.guillermoluijk.com/misc/nikonmirrorlessff.png)

Regards

That forward finger makes all the difference. Still to be determined:
- gripsize
- commanddial and shoulderbutton rotation,
- viewfinder and shutterresponse.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 24, 2018, 12:13:02 am
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/07/23/nikon-mirrorless-camera-announcement-confirmed-for-august-23rd.aspx/

All answers will be provided in 30 days it seeems.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: G* on July 24, 2018, 05:10:49 am
Some screenshots from the new Nikon film, worked on with curves. More to follow …
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: G* on July 24, 2018, 05:12:28 am
another 4 …

That halo seems to be bigger than the actual mount. What do you think: F-mount size?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on July 24, 2018, 06:37:24 am
The good thing about that halo, no matter if it fits the real dimensions or not, is that Nikon wants to emphasize it on its teaser. And that means mount dimensions were carefully chosen this time.

Probably Nikon knew better than anyone about the limitations of a narrow diameter and long flange distance in the digital era. Now they will come out with the most flexible and less limiting FF mirrorless system.

Regards

PS: can't wait to see a Canon TS on a Nikon body :D
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 24, 2018, 07:24:26 am
PS: can't wait to see a Canon TS on a Nikon body :D

Nikon has things covered with the 19mm on the wide end, but the 135mm is interesting.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Rob C on July 24, 2018, 09:52:19 am
Hopefully.



Keith, no! Don't go there!

Think Porsche instead - it'll end up much more fun!

:-)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: KLaban on July 24, 2018, 10:33:30 am


Keith, no! Don't go there!

Think Porsche instead - it'll end up much more fun!

:-)

Yes, Rob, thank you!

Your argument makes perfect sense to me, but...

;-)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: ErikKaffehr on July 24, 2018, 11:23:16 am
Hi,

May be a good thing. Nikon has been a bit conservative on bayonets.

Sony needs some competition in mirrorless.

Best regards
Erik


The good thing about that halo, no matter if it fits the real dimensions or not, is that Nikon wants to emphasize it on its teaser. And that means mount dimensions were carefully chosen this time.

Probably Nikon knew better than anyone about the limitations of a narrow diameter and long flange distance in the digital era. Now they will come out with the most flexible and less limiting FF mirrorless system.

Regards

PS: can't wait to see a Canon TS on a Nikon body :D
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 25, 2018, 01:00:38 am
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/07/25/official-press-release-nikons-develops-the-next-generation-full-frame-mirrorless-camera.aspx/

As predicted, the focus is on optical quality, not on compactness.

I have a feeling that we are ahead of a D3 like announcement. That Nikon has designed this camera with a very clear target in mind which is to design the platform to enable the best possible image quality.

This happens to be exactly what I was hoping they would do.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: davidgp on July 25, 2018, 03:04:29 am
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/07/25/official-press-release-nikons-develops-the-next-generation-full-frame-mirrorless-camera.aspx/

As predicted, the focus is on optical quality, not on compactness.

I have a feeling that we are ahead of a D3 like announcement. That Nikon has designed this camera with a very clear target in mind which is to design the platform to enable the best possible image quality.

This happens to be exactly what I was hoping they would do.

Cheers,
Bernard

Maybe it is the sceptic in me... but I try to read with a grain of salt press releases... for any manufacturer... I will wait for the hands on...



http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 25, 2018, 03:09:14 am
Maybe it is the sceptic in me... but I try to read with a grain of salt press releases... for any manufacturer... I will wait for the hands on...

I am with you... but Nikon has never had a clue what marketing means. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: D Fuller on July 25, 2018, 08:57:12 pm
This is becoming exciting.

It seems that the rumors were right all along and that Nikon has chosen to differentiate themselves with the most future proof possible mount with the possibility to design unique lenses. I suspect that we may get lenses with perfectly circular out of focus highlights, uniquely bright lenses,...

In fact, it very much looks like this mount has the same size as that of the GFX and X1D bodies and Nikon may have kept the door open for larger sensors moving forward.

Cheers,
Bernard

I’m not sure I see the larger mount as pointing toward medium format, but maybe...

However, even if larger sensors are not a consideration, as I understand things, there are three very good reasons for a larger mount: it makes the design of very bright lenses easier, it makes the design of telecentric lens’s easier, and it makes ibis easier to engineer. And the very-short flange-focal distance is another plus.

The F mount has served well for 60 or so years, and I applaud Nikon for maintaining that standard through so many generations of cameras. But if they are going to design something better-suited to the mirrorless camera concept it’s nice to see a design that incorporates so much thought and so many advantages.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 26, 2018, 01:58:56 am
Indeed.

There is another aspect that may be made possible by such a large mount, that I would call the holy grail of lens design, it is the absence of cat eye shaped out of focus highlights with bright lenses.

Either way, it seems reasonnable to measure the degree of future proofness of a lens mount by the ratio of its diameter by the diagonal of the sensor size.

During the past 20 years the single reason why EOS was deemed superior to F mount was its larger diameter.

It will probably also be possible to adapt other mirrorless lenses on the Nikon if the mount is significantly larger, even with similar flange distances. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: 32BT on July 26, 2018, 02:19:17 am
Indeed.

There is another aspect that may be made possible by such a large mount, that I would call the holy grail of lens design, it is the absence of cat eye shaped out of focus highlights with bright lenses.

Either way, it seems reasonnable to measure the degree of future proofness of a lens mount by the ratio of its diameter by the diagonal of the sensor size.

During the past 20 years the single reason why EOS was deemed superior to F mount was its larger diameter.

It will probably also be possible to adapt other mirrorless lenses on the Nikon if the mount is significantly larger, even with similar flange distances. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Huh? Seems like too narrow a focus on size. Larger lensmount probably equates to larger lens elements thus more expensive glass and heavier, bulkier lenses. The drawing may be second to none, but i'm not sure that's what people were looking to gain from mirrorless.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 26, 2018, 02:30:27 am
Huh? Seems like too narrow a focus on size. Larger lensmount probably equates to larger lens elements thus more expensive glass and heavier, bulkier lenses. The drawing may be second to none, but i'm not sure that's what people were looking to gain from mirrorless.

Well, no... It is possible to design small lenses fitting a large mount, but the opposite isn’t true. Or at least is much more difficult and may end up resulting in more bulky designs.

Besides, there are various reasons for the interest of people for mirrorless, but those have been strongly shapped/limited till date by the design choices made by Sony whose strategy accross sensor sizes was simple: design the smallest possible body around each sensor size.

Leica has chosen another route but is obviously a niche offering.

So when investing in a strategic mirrorless mount, I will consider its size as a very important decision criteria. Not because it is Nikon coming up with a large one, because it just makes sense.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: KLaban on July 26, 2018, 04:24:37 am
Heft and girth, or rather lack of them, would be a key consideration for this snapper.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: chez on July 26, 2018, 09:00:55 am
Heft and girth, or rather lack of them, would be a key consideration for this snapper.

Yep, love my compact travel lenses I have for Sony. No interest in big heavy lenses for mirror less cameras...already have that with DSLR systems.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: D Fuller on July 26, 2018, 11:57:32 am
Two other things I'm hoping for are an EVF with better dynamic range than anything else on the market and great manual focussing feedback. HDR screens are becoming more common in larger displays, at some point they'll come to an EVF. Could it be this one?

Another thing that would be nice to see is a very thin filter stack. Not so thin that IR is an issue, but thin enough that wide legacy lenses will render with little smearing.

Those two features would greatly increase the range of smal lenses that could be used.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: KLaban on July 26, 2018, 02:24:51 pm
Right now I believe that the D850 is still superior to the a7rIII. But it seems clear that the mirrorless technology is maturing quickly and some of the advantages such as better eye AF, and more compact designs, more design freedom for lenses are very powerful, even if the current gen isn’t quite there yet.

So I would first add a mirrorless body and start to build a lens portfolio, probably starting with a 35mm as my first usage would be street photography.

I have considering a Leica M10 many times and gave up on the idea every time because of focus accuracy concerns. The mirrorless body’s first mission will be a Leica alternative.

Cheers,
Bernard

With eyesight problems in mind my desired full frame AF mirrorless offering would be based on the form of the Leica M series with the EVF of the SL in place of the rangefinder: an interchangeable lens Q offering AF native lenses and M lenses via an adapter.

There are plenty of folk out there hoping for similar. The surprise is that it hasn't yet made an appearance. 
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: ErikKaffehr on July 26, 2018, 03:49:47 pm
Hi,

What is wrong with the SL? Is it the size?

Best regards
Erik

With eyesight problems in mind my desired full frame AF mirrorless offering would be based on the form of the Leica M series with the EVF of the SL in place of the rangefinder: an interchangeable lens Q offering AF native lenses and M lenses via an adapter.

There are plenty of folk out there hoping for similar. The surprise is that it hasn't yet made an appearance.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Telecaster on July 26, 2018, 03:55:58 pm
With eyesight problems in mind my desired full frame AF mirrorless offering would be based on the form of the Leica M series with the EVF of the SL in place of the rangefinder: an interchangeable lens Q offering AF native lenses and M lenses via an adapter.

I've been using my Sony A7iii/Techart combo as something like that. It's not an optimal solution at all, but with 40mm+ lenses it works well enough for me to keep using it.

-Dave-
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: KLaban on July 26, 2018, 04:24:23 pm
Hi,

What is wrong with the SL? Is it the size?

Best regards
Erik

Indeed, the body and native lenses.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: D Fuller on July 26, 2018, 04:33:17 pm
With eyesight problems in mind my desired full frame AF mirrorless offering would be based on the form of the Leica M series with the EVF of the SL in place of the rangefinder: an interchangeable lens Q offering AF native lenses and M lenses via an adapter.

There are plenty of folk out there hoping for similar. The surprise is that it hasn't yet made an appearance.

That sounds almost like the spec sheet for the Leica CL. It's APS-C, but I'm pretty sure it checks every box on your list.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: KLaban on July 26, 2018, 05:36:13 pm
That sounds almost like the spec sheet for the Leica CL. It's APS-C, but I'm pretty sure it checks every box on your list.

Except full frame.

I've already downsized from medium format and wouldn't want a further downsize, also I wouldn't want to compromise the focal lengths of my existing M series lenses.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Rand47 on July 27, 2018, 06:58:15 am
With eyesight problems in mind my desired full frame AF mirrorless offering would be based on the form of the Leica M series with the EVF of the SL in place of the rangefinder: an interchangeable lens Q offering AF native lenses and M lenses via an adapter.

There are plenty of folk out there hoping for similar. The surprise is that it hasn't yet made an appearance.

Minus the FF, (which is much less relevant these days than once it was) the Fuji X-Pro 2 fits your description nicely! 😀

Rand
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: KLaban on July 27, 2018, 07:20:39 am
Minus the FF, (which is much less relevant these days than once it was) the Fuji X-Pro 2 fits your description nicely! 😀

Rand

No it doesn't. Please see my post above.

I've used the X-pro, problem is when I pick it up all I want to do is put it down.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Rob C on July 27, 2018, 02:54:28 pm
No it doesn't. Please see my post above.

I've used the X-pro, problem is when I pick it up all I want to do is put it down.

Quite the opposite to how I felt about my last employer's M3 back in '65...

Rob
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: ErikKaffehr on July 27, 2018, 03:00:06 pm
Hi,

Personally, I see gear mostly as an imaging device. If it delivers great images I tend to ignore the rest.

Best regards
Erik

No it doesn't. Please see my post above.

I've used the X-pro, problem is when I pick it up all I want to do is put it down.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: KLaban on July 27, 2018, 04:25:46 pm
Hi,

Personally, I see gear mostly as an imaging device. If it delivers great images I tend to ignore the rest.

Best regards
Erik

I need to love using my camera. Hopefully it will allow me to deliver great images.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: chez on July 27, 2018, 09:03:38 pm
Hi,

Personally, I see gear mostly as an imaging device. If it delivers great images I tend to ignore the rest.

Best regards
Erik

I'm with you here as far as great images...but the damn outfit needs to be light. I'm done lugging heavy bulky gear through heated, humid, crowded alleys.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on July 28, 2018, 01:51:09 am
I'm with you here as far as great images...but the damn outfit needs to be light. I'm done lugging heavy bulky gear through heated, humid, crowded alleys.

I’m with you. But it takes some discipline. I am starting to carry more stuff and end up with the same weight.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 28, 2018, 04:05:16 am
I’m with you. But it takes some discipline. I am starting to carry more stuff and end up with the same weight.

The moment you start to carry a tripod and a few lenses, the relative weight saving becomes negligible.

Most middle aged man have far greater weight loss potential watching their diet and doing more exercise. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: KLaban on July 28, 2018, 04:50:13 am
I'm down to one small body and lens in hand (wrist strap/grip) and another small body and lens in a very small bag (bandolier). Works for me.

I've been the same weight (70kg) for my entire adult life.

;-)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: KLaban on July 28, 2018, 05:21:59 am
Quite the opposite to how I felt about my last employer's M3 back in '65...

Rob

I'm sure most current imaging devices that are available today would meet my needs in terms of image performance, but yes, I think one instinctively knows when a camera is right.

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: scooby70 on July 28, 2018, 06:00:26 am
The moment you start to carry a tripod and a few lenses, the relative weight saving becomes negligible.

Most middle aged man have far greater weight loss potential watching their diet and doing more exercise. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

If you're carrying the biggest f2.8 zooms and a tripod maybe the camera body becomes insignificant but I can carry my A7 and three or four compact primes in a small bag and my tripod easily. My 5D plus lenses were enough on their own and as much as I'd want to carry and needed a much bigger bag.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 28, 2018, 06:12:12 am
If you're carrying the biggest f2.8 zooms and a tripod maybe the camera body becomes insignificant but I can carry my A7 and three or four compact primes in a small bag and my tripod easily. My 5D plus lenses were enough on their own and as much as I'd want to carry and needed a much bigger bag.

It would be great if you could share the list of lenses you used to carry with your 5D vs those you carry nowadays.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on July 28, 2018, 06:21:46 am
On a long trip to remote areas of Tibet I carried a small tripod and two APSC bodies, three zooms that took me from 10 to 210 mm(equivalent to 15 to 315mm) and a bunch of little batteries. All in a messenger size bag. I have printed up to A2 no problems at all.

The FF is a little bulkier but still big weight savings overall. The problem is that I have to stop myself from taking three zooms and three primes and a flash and tripod simply because it’s all a bit lighter. For most stuff the body with the 24 to 70 is all I actually use or need.

Commercially it’s not a big deal as I tend to load up with gear and put it on a trolly.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Rob C on July 28, 2018, 06:25:43 am
I'm down to one small body and lens in hand (wrist strap/grip) and another small body and lens in a very small bag (bandolier). Works for me.

I've been the same weight (70kg) for my entire adult life.

;-)

Spooky!

So was I, until Ann and her cooking vanished, and then I fell to around 66kg where I appear to be stranded. I conclude that age plays its bit too, because my biceps now hang where there was nothing visible before, and the pecs are fighting better judgement to say hello! to my lower rib, possibly in search of verification of the missing one which, apparently, is biblical myth. Who knew?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: chez on July 28, 2018, 10:00:38 am
The moment you start to carry a tripod and a few lenses, the relative weight saving becomes negligible.

Most middle aged man have far greater weight loss potential watching their diet and doing more exercise. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Not true. Even the tripod can be smaller and lighter for a compact mirror less system. I'd say I saved at least 40% weight going from a Canon based landscape kit to one based on Sony...maybe even more. Even my pack is smaller and lighter.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 28, 2018, 10:03:34 am
Not true. Even the tripod can be smaller and lighter for a compact mirror less system. I'd say I saved at least 40% weight going from a Canon based landscape kit to one based on Sony...maybe even more. Even my pack is smaller and lighter.

Do you have figures to back that up?

I use pretty often my RRS 1 series tripod with my H6D-100c with excellent results...

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: chez on July 28, 2018, 10:42:50 am
Do you have figures to back that up?

I use pretty often my RRS 1 series tripod with my H6D-100c with excellent results...

Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard, I don't appreciate your tone here.

Here's my old kit:

5d2
7d
Zeiss 18
Zeiss 21
Zeiss 35
Zeiss 109

New kit:

A7R
A7R2
Batis 18
Loxia 21
Loxia 35
Loxia 85

You do the math.

I've also changed my tripod and pack...both reducing weight. Also little things like L-plates weigh less for mirror less. Add everything up and you reduce weight quite substantially.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Rob C on July 28, 2018, 11:35:38 am
There is still question about size mattering, whether light and rigid is as good as heavy and rigid. (I'm thinking of tripods - you think for yourselves.)

Mass is sometimes better able to protect from vibration and breeze. Personally speaking, as amateur, I find that a light tripod - with two legs extended, offers me all the support I need in order to frame with a long lens; try framing, without support, with a 500 reflex. Two legs give enough stability in a chosen plane - usually the horizontal - and tilting the whole enchilada up or down is easy when no third leg to adjust. Of course, I still go for fast shutter speeds where I can, and as I like fairly open apertures at the moment (when not in block mode) that comes naturally.

With a monopod, the only thing you can really depend upon is that you won't reach the centre of the Earth.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on July 28, 2018, 12:15:56 pm
And don’t forget stabilized bodies allow lighter tripods. That’s a fact.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: 32BT on July 28, 2018, 12:19:32 pm
And don’t forget stabilized bodies allow lighter tripods. That’s a fact.

Which brand recommends stabilization with a tripod?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on July 28, 2018, 12:25:54 pm
If you go with a lightweight tripod and it’s not as steady as you would like in a bit of a breeze then they all do. And if you decide to use a monopod to save weight and would like to use a 28mm prime at low iso and slowish shitter speed then stabilization helps a great deal. Experience with the actual kit has taught me that.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: 32BT on July 28, 2018, 01:24:56 pm
If you go with a lightweight tripod and it’s not as steady as you would like in a bit of a breeze then they all do. And if you decide to use a monopod to save weight and would like to use a 28mm prime at low iso and slowish shitter speed then stabilization helps a great deal. Experience with the actual kit has taught me that.

Between "that's a fact" and pure bs there is a large gray area of hearsay and personal experience. On this site we prefer cold hard numbers and controlled examples in case of "that's a fact", but you likely know that already, therefore i hope you don't mind me calling bs on this, so we can get to the bottom of it.

Monopod: the last thing you want to do for effective stabalization is move the point of rotation away from the system. A monopod does exactly that. (That would be pure logic and therefore fact.)

The kind of vibrations induced by a tripod are not very well countered by stabilization, since it isn't designed for that type, but i love to be proofen wrong. Then the original question stands: which brand recommends the use of stabilization and tripod?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on July 28, 2018, 02:15:16 pm
Between "that's a fact" and pure bs there is a large gray area of hearsay and personal experience. On this site we prefer cold hard numbers and controlled examples in case of "that's a fact", but you likely know that already, therefore i hope you don't mind me calling bs on this, so we can get to the bottom of it.

Monopod: the last thing you want to do for effective stabalization is move the point of rotation away from the system. A monopod does exactly that. (That would be pure logic and therefore fact.)

The kind of vibrations induced by a tripod are not very well countered by stabilization, since it isn't designed for that type, but i love to be proofen wrong. Then the original question stands: which brand recommends the use of stabilization and tripod?

I can’t answer your question, as you well know. It is generally accepted that stabilization be turned off when on a tripod. Common knowledge actually. Yet when using lightweight tripods and shutter speeds of between a half second and and 2 seconds I have had better results with IBIS on than off. Do I have examples at hand? No I don’t. Am I going to look for some? No Im not. The reason is I am relating my personal experiences and don’t give a fig if you believe me or not. I’m always looking to improve my photography but I’m not unhappy with my work and I look forward to improving it. Convincing you of my methods is unimportant to me. Sorry be harsh but you call BS and where I am from that is the same as calling me a liar. If you think I’m wrong then say so but you chose to go the extra step and say I’m lying.

This argument has actually taken us a bit off topic. We arrived at this point via a convoluted path about weight saving and I said that IBIS had helped me by allowing lighter tripods and also using mono pods. If you wish to ignore that go right ahead.

I have actually done a lot of tests on this but it’s very hard to quantify. Hard to introduce the same amount of shake for each image  when testing different shutter speeds. I found the following. For long lenses lenses stabilization alone is better than IBIS alone. A combination of IBIS and lens stabilization seems to be best of all and that’s what most people are saying. If you want to go by what manufacturers are reccomending then I guess you should be OK with the 6 and even 7 stops reccomeded or rather claimed by manufacturers. I don’t get that at all. I will hand hold a standard lens with a degree of confidence at a 60th but cannot achieve satisfactory sharpness handheld at 1 second using IBIS and that’s 6 stops. Using a monopod however I have shot down to a quarter of a second with IBIS and was happy with the results. I think I posted an image of rainbow gorge on this forum doing just that. I tried with and without IBIS and the image was sharper with it on.

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on July 29, 2018, 01:31:37 pm
The kind of vibrations induced by a tripod are not very well countered by stabilization, since it isn't designed for that type, but i love to be proofen wrong.

Camera on a fragile tripod affected by wind:

IBIS off:

(http://www.guillermoluijk.com/article/tripodandis/viento_ibisoff.jpg)

IBIS on:

(http://www.guillermoluijk.com/article/tripodandis/viento_ibison.jpg)

Test link:

http://www.guillermoluijk.com/article/tripodandis/index.htm

Regards
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: 32BT on July 30, 2018, 04:38:51 am
Camera on a fragile tripod affected by wind:

IBIS off:

(http://www.guillermoluijk.com/article/tripodandis/viento_ibisoff.jpg)

IBIS on:

(http://www.guillermoluijk.com/article/tripodandis/viento_ibison.jpg)

Test link:

http://www.guillermoluijk.com/article/tripodandis/index.htm

Regards

Stabilization is designed for low frequency oscillation (the kind of ondulation introduced by handholding). If you submit it to broadband oscillation it will filter out the low frequency and what you get is exactly as illustrated: you go from a fuzzy image to a less fuzzy image.

Stabilization is not designed for high frequency oscillations and spikes as introduced by a tripod, shuttershock, or even shutterbutton usage. If it was, then the pany gx8 wouldn't have a shuttershock problem. This also means that stabilization might actually introduce fuzzyness when used under circumstances where it isn't helpful.

Claiming or recommending that ibis allows lighter or less sturdy support is ill advice imo, certainly not fact, though i'm sure that with progress in technique one day ibis will be able to counter all forms of movement we can throw at it.

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on July 30, 2018, 05:17:25 am
Stabilization is designed for low frequency oscillation (the kind of ondulation introduced by handholding). If you submit it to broadband oscillation it will filter out the low frequency and what you get is exactly as illustrated: you go from a fuzzy image to a less fuzzy image.

Stabilization is not designed for high frequency oscillations and spikes as introduced by a tripod, shuttershock, or even shutterbutton usage. If it was, then the pany gx8 wouldn't have a shuttershock problem. This also means that stabilization might actually introduce fuzzyness when used under circumstances where it isn't helpful.

Claiming or recommending that ibis allows lighter or less sturdy support is ill advice imo, certainly not fact, though i'm sure that with progress in technique one day ibis will be able to counter all forms of movement we can throw at it.

You get theory and you get real world usage. If I remember correctly Michael was always quite adamant about focusing on the latter.  Personally I believe the above example does a fair job of replicating my experiences. If you don’t like the results then don’t use the technique. Still a bit harsh to call BS don’t you think? Anyway that’s it for me on the subject.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 30, 2018, 06:30:23 am
It is also my experience that stabilization can help sometimes with unstable support.

On the other hand, I have also seen cases where using stabilization on a stable tripod had a negative effect on absolute sharpness.

It depends on many factors such as the VR technology used, the focal length, the shutter speed, the type of support, the type of excitation,... that experience ends up being the only approach to determine what works and what doesn't. This is unfortunately no always helpful when you need to get a given shot in the field, but this is reality.
 
Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, and hand-held photagraphy
Post by: BJL on July 30, 2018, 06:59:34 am
Strange how this thread flipped so quickly from the potential size and weight advantages for highly mobile hand-held (“street”) photography of a mirrorless camera carried with just one or a few lenses, none very long, to —debating tripod usage!

Some of us:
- want those advantages for “agile, mobile photography” a lot of the time
- want to use a single camera (or at least a single lens mount and lens collection) for other uses like tripod and wildlife situations
- do not buy the dogma that “heavy lenses need a bulky body”, because such lenses are supported with the left hand or a tripod, not from the body’s hand grip.

So as long as the body is big enough for well-spaced controls and the handgrip is deep enough to hold the camera when it is hanging at my side, I see no downside to a reasonably small, light body—a well-sized, agile body can definitely be smaller than any 36x24 format DSLR!
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: jeremyrh on July 30, 2018, 08:00:31 am
Which brand recommends stabilization with a tripod?
Which brand admits that their tripods are a bit rubbish so you better use stabilisation? Doubt if that would pass the marketing department! :-)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: 32BT on July 30, 2018, 08:10:43 am
Which brand admits that their tripods are a bit rubbish so you better use stabilisation? Doubt if that would pass the marketing department! :-)

Ha, sure, but it was a genuine question in that there may have been a (camera) manufacturer who have solved the tripod problem. Considering what Oly seems to accomplish, they might have had a solution for the smaller sensor formats for example.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: kers on July 30, 2018, 08:35:29 am
i think the quality aspect for tripods is exaggerated; i have 5 tripods of different brands - they all work well.
The more heavy they are the more stable...
That said, IS does not work well with long shutter speeds on tripods -say 1 sec and more-  is my experience.

on topic;
I do not see a reason yet i would like to buy a mirrorless Nikon.
I have an d850 that serves me well. I hope Nikon can impress me.
If the camera is not easy to combine with third party lenses that would be a big miss.

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on July 30, 2018, 05:01:35 pm
Claiming or recommending that ibis allows lighter or less sturdy support is ill advice imo, certainly not fact, though i'm sure that with progress in technique one day ibis will be able to counter all forms of movement we can throw at it.

I never claimed or recommended that. I simply did a test where IBIS improves image quality on a cheap tripod subject to wind (reason to leave IBIS ON on a tripod). In the article I also tried to find out if IBIS negatively affected image quality when the tripod was perfectly stable (reason to switch IBIS OFF on a tripod), and it affected image quality in no way.

If you prefer your beautiful theory about IBIS oscillation frequencies which contradicts both tests for me it's fine.

Regards
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: EricV on July 30, 2018, 07:59:49 pm
Monopod: the last thing you want to do for effective stabalization is move the point of rotation away from the system. A monopod does exactly that. (That would be pure logic and therefore fact.)
A monopod reduces rotations (roll and pitch) substantially.  In doing this, it may introduce translations, but that is likely a very good tradeoff, improving overall stabalization.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: 32BT on July 31, 2018, 12:16:12 am
I never claimed or recommended that.

True, you didn't, it was a response to another entry.

I simply did a test where IBIS improves image quality on a cheap tripod subject to wind (reason to leave IBIS ON on a tripod).

If your objective is to go from a fuzzy image to a less fuzzy image, then obviously it is going to work. The system is designed to reduce shake, so it reduces shake. What then is the point of the test?

In the article I also tried to find out if IBIS negatively affected image quality when the tripod was perfectly stable (reason to switch IBIS OFF on a tripod), and it affected image quality in no way.

And according to you what would then be the reason manufacturers suggest to switch it off?

If you prefer your beautiful theory about IBIS oscillation frequencies which contradicts both tests for me it's fine.

Regards

That "beautiful" theory helps to explain your results. Or do you have a better explanation why you do not end up with a sharp result with ibis on?

If it was meant as sarcasm, then i'm not sure why that's necessary.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: 32BT on July 31, 2018, 12:28:07 am
A monopod reduces rotations (roll and pitch) substantially.  In doing this, it may introduce translations, but that is likely a very good tradeoff, improving overall stabalization.

Yes, but it's designed to reduce low freq roll and pitch for which it is very effective. What it doesn't anticipate is a shutterbutton push that shocks the system.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on July 31, 2018, 08:34:12 pm
If your objective is to go from a fuzzy image to a less fuzzy image
(...)
do you have a better explanation why you do not end up with a sharp result with ibis on?

You would have had the answer to that question if you had read the information provided to you. Google translation is more than good enough:

http://www.guillermoluijk.com/article/tripodandis/index.htm

"I used an Olympus E-P5 with a Konica Hexanon lens of 135mm (270mm equivalent), placed on a lightweight traveling tripod in order to maximize the effect of any vibration. It is not about obtaining correct images but about seeing the difference in the final result according to whether the stabilizer acts or not."

The shots were done at 1/1,6s as indicated in the text to deliberately get blurred images both with IBIS ON and OFF, since that's 7-8 stops of required stabilization for 270mm eq. and no existing IBIS can compensate for that.

Regards
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 02, 2018, 12:57:31 am
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/02/new-nikon-mirrorless-mount-video-teaser.

The last camera shown before the new mirrorless is the D5.

Initial unconfirmed reports from people under NDA speak about incredible AF performance with native lenses.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: 32BT on August 02, 2018, 03:09:15 am

Initial unconfirmed reports from people under NDA speak about incredible AF performance with native lenses.

Cheers,
Bernard

Which makes one wonder:
Low expectations getting good results? Or high expectations getting bad results?

Because either way, please don't tell me anyone thought their current AF performance was in any way subpar...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 02, 2018, 03:41:13 am
Which makes one wonder:
Low expectations getting good results? Or high expectations getting bad results?

Because either way, please don't tell me anyone thought their current AF performance was in any way subpar...

In the report that I read, it was compared to the latest Sony mirrorless. Which I think is fairly close to the D5/D850 from an AF speed standpoint.

It read like "fastest AF ever seen in a camera".

But this could be some fanboy dreaming outloud and just claiming he actually tried.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on August 02, 2018, 08:27:48 am
In the report that I read, it was compared to the latest Sony mirrorless. Which I think is fairly close to the D5/D850 from an AF speed standpoint.

It read like "fastest AF ever seen in a camera".

But this could be some fanboy dreaming outloud and just claiming he actually tried.

Cheers,
Bernard

If true that would be very good news and exactly what I am hoping for. I won’t dash out and change to Nikon, that would be economically foolish, as I am now quite invested in Sony glass, camera flash systems and all the bits and pieces that go with that.

It would mean that in two years when I upgrade my bodies that Sony would have had to have reacted to the new standard and I can expect a much improved camera.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 02, 2018, 09:01:40 am
It would mean that in two years when I upgrade my bodies that Sony would have had to have reacted to the new standard and I can expect a much improved camera.

We'll see if those rumors are true or not, but I totally agree that competition is always good for us photographers.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BJL on August 02, 2018, 10:25:48 am
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/02/new-nikon-mirrorless-mount-video-teaser.
The grip looks substantial, promising for a big battery and good battery life.
This is helped by moving the lens mount (&VF) a bit to the left, dropping the legacy central location dictated by the space needs of film canisters and allowing more controls under the right hand.

If rumors are roughly right about a 49mm throat diameter, it is fairly small; maybe about the same 96mm high as the recent Sony A7 models, bit slightly wider.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 02, 2018, 10:32:30 am
The grip looks substantial, promising for a big battery and good battery life.
This is helped by moving the lens mount (&VF) a bit to the left, dropping the legacy central location dictated by the space needs of film canisters and allowing more controls under the right hand.

If rumors are roughly right about a 49mm throat diameter, it is fairly small; maybe about the same 96mm high as the recent Sony A7 models, bit slightly wider.

The recent rumors about mount diameter are more focused on 62mm. A few say 54mm, a few say 73mm.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BJL on August 02, 2018, 10:54:56 am
62-65mm outer diameter is what I have seen, 49mm inner “throat” diameter. Which BTW is very close to Leica L, the first mount designed explicitly for 36x24 mirrorless.

Hasselblad X is only about 61mm, and Fujifilm G is 63-65mm, so 62 would be crazy for 36x24, and 73 would be total lunacy.

Also, estimates based on strap lug size are around 51mm.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 02, 2018, 11:53:45 am
62-65mm outer diameter is what I have seen, 49mm inner “throat” diameter. Which BTW is very close to Leica L, the first mount designed explicitly for 36x24 mirrorless.

Hasselblad X is only about 61mm, and Fujifilm G is 63-65mm, so 62 would be crazy for 36x24, and 73 would be total lunacy.

Also, estimates based on strap lug size are around 51mm.

What I read is 58-62mm inner diameter, but I did not check myself. I think it was computed from the size of the hotshoe.

https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/bcc73b17a36e1ff880279b8d01a91ddfc3573d32ef4981a93be53daf3dd1cc47.jpg

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BJL on August 02, 2018, 03:20:53 pm
Bernard, doesn’t it strike you as strange that the new Nikon mount would have an excess of throat diameter over sensor diagonal, and incoming outer ray angle for light comes, so much more than any of the three recently designed high-end mirrorless mounts
Leica L: +5.5mm, 15°
Hasselblad X: +6mm, 18°
Fujifilm G: +8-10mm, 17-21.5°
At the rumored 16mm deep, “Z-mount” would match the biggest of those angles at 49.3mm. A few mm more might help to accomodate the thickness of the mount and such, but it seems to me that going much wider would just pointlessly fatten both bodies and also many lenses.

Or are Leica, Hasselblad, Fujifilm (and Sony with its 36x34 models) all making incompetent or very unambitious design choices?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 02, 2018, 03:29:35 pm
Bernard, doesn’t it strike you as strange that the new Nikon mount would have an excess of throat diameter over sensor diagonal, and incoming outer ray angle for light comes, so much more than any of the three recently designed high-end mirrorless mounts
Leica L: +5.5mm, 15°
Hasselblad X: +6mm, 18°
Fujifilm G: +8-10mm, 17-21.5°
At the rumored 16mm deep, “Z-mount” would match the biggest of those angles at 49.3mm. A few mm more might help to accomodate the thickness of the mount and such, but it seems to me that going much wider would just pointlessly fatten both bodies and also many lenses.

Or are Leica, Hasselblad, Fujifilm (and Sony with its 36x34 models) all making incompetent or very unambitious design choices?

I understand your point, we'll know soon enough.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BJL on August 02, 2018, 03:59:04 pm
Bernard: indeed we will, but we need a game to pass the time waiting.

Couldn’t Nikon patent it and let us know that way?! Though it seems that a patent can obfuscate some details: Sony has a patent filed in 2015 for 36x24mm E-mount which only says the opening diameter is “smaller than about 48mm”:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/9392150.html
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 02, 2018, 04:28:18 pm
Bernard: indeed we will, but we need a game to pass the time waiting.

 ;D

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: D Fuller on August 02, 2018, 06:15:47 pm
The last title in the video says. "Gateway to a New Dimension".

Do you think that's metaphorical? Or are they talking about something other than 24x36?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: gkroeger on August 02, 2018, 09:23:18 pm
The last title in the video says. "Gateway to a New Dimension".

Do you think that's metaphorical? Or are they talking about something other than 24x36?

The new, larger, lens mount is needed for the in-body wormhole.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 02, 2018, 11:20:44 pm
The last title in the video says. "Gateway to a New Dimension".

Do you think that's metaphorical? Or are they talking about something other than 24x36?

I think they are probably just talking about the size of their new mount?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: D Fuller on August 03, 2018, 12:12:01 am
I think they are probably just talking about the size of their new mount?

Cheers,
Bernard

That could be. And it doesn’t make much sense for them do make something that’s not standard FF. But having made a few teaser campaigns, the words are usually chosen pretty carefully, so I wonder what it does mean.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 03, 2018, 12:16:34 am
That could be. And it doesn’t make much sense for them do make something that’s not standard FF. But having made a few teaser campaigns, the words are usually chosen pretty carefully, so I wonder what it does mean.

I understand, but their own announcement mentions FF so I believe that this is pretty much a done deal.

And frankly, 33x44 isn’t that much bigger.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: D Fuller on August 03, 2018, 12:29:49 am
I understand, but their own announcement mentions FF so I believe that this is pretty much a done deal.

And frankly, 33x44 isn’t that much bigger.

Cheers,
Bernard

Agreed. And given the resolution of the D850, not enough more resolution to be worth doing. (At least not with any sensor we know about.)  so I’m probably reading too much intent into that line of copy.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Rob C on August 03, 2018, 04:07:00 am
I think they are probably just talking about the size of their new mount?

Cheers,
Bernard

Or are they just laughing their balls off at the imaginative convolutions through which camera enthusiasts put themselves?

A danger, for them (Nikon), though, is as ever: anticlimax. Think Df.

Rob
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 03, 2018, 04:18:32 am
Or are they just laughing their balls off at the imaginative convolutions through which camera enthusiasts put themselves?

A danger, for them (Nikon), though, is as ever: anticlimax. Think Df.

Indeed. But the Df was the first time in history Nikon tried to do some real marketing... and it worked beautifully... only the product they were trying to sell wasn't that great...

Then they came up with the D850... the best DSLR in history... and forgot to market it...

Perhaps they will be able to get both marketing and product right once?  ;D

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BJL on August 03, 2018, 06:31:22 am
The recent rumors about mount diameter are more focused on 62mm. A few say 54mm, a few say 73mm.

PhilDunn at DPReview previously said 64mm (and body 147 wide) based on hot shoe size, but just corrected that to 54mm +/-1mm (he forgot a subtraction). Still 147mm wide.

A thought: 49mm might be the even smaller diameter measured where the locking flanges protrude in at some places. But they can be positioned away from the frame corners; if so, it is the 54+/-1mm that matters optically.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 03, 2018, 10:09:43 am
How about a deal at 58?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Telecaster on August 03, 2018, 04:49:20 pm
The thing I like about 44x33mm is the aspect ratio. 36x27mm…this would be nice (not that I'm expecting it from Canikon).

-Dave-
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Alex Waugh on August 03, 2018, 06:41:45 pm
What I am expecting though is a 4x5 crop mode in viewfinder same as the D850. Im hoping since the new camera is mirrorless the crop will be absolute with black borders instead of lines or faded areas.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on August 05, 2018, 06:31:35 am
With such a huge hole, adaptors for this camera are going to look like a reverted cone :D

Jokes apart I think this is very good news.

Regards
Title: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming BEFORE early 2019
Post by: BJL on August 05, 2018, 07:27:25 am
With such a huge hole, adaptors for this camera are going to look like a reverted cone :D
It’s not a huge hole, it’s a (relatively) compact camera. Several estimates based on the hot shoe size put it around or a bit below the 54mm of Canon EF Mount.

P. S. It amuses me that a “compact system camera” forum is speculating about a mount that is 65mm or even 73mm high inside, so 75-80 or more high in all. The Olympus Pen-F and Panasonic GX-9 are EVF system cameras only 72mm high in total; that’s compact!

Jokes aside,49-54mm seems a good size.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 05, 2018, 01:38:54 pm
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/05/another-nikon-mirrorless-camera-picture-leaked.aspx/

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: 32BT on August 05, 2018, 01:58:53 pm
Why am i now longing for an X1D with GFX guts and a mount that takes Zeiss glass?

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Dave Rosser on August 05, 2018, 02:49:59 pm
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/05/another-nikon-mirrorless-camera-picture-leaked.aspx/
U
Cheers,
Bernard


Either the young lady is tiny or the camera is huge, as big as the D700 I got rid of when I moved to Fuji and bigger than the F2 I traded in when I went digital!!

Dave

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 05, 2018, 03:02:23 pm
Either the young lady is tiny or the camera is huge, as big as the D700 I got rid of when I moved to Fuji and bigger than the F2 I traded in when I went digital!!

Hard to tell, but Nikon has made it clear already that ultimate image quality is their top priority, meaning that compactness wasn’t.

I find it interesting that different manufacturers have apparently listened to different users requirements.

Overall though, lenses have a larger impact than the body on the size of the system. And pretty much any lens should be adaptable on this camera.

As far as I am concerned, ergonomics and image quality top compactness when I am serious about photographying. I use my iPhone otherwise.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Telecaster on August 05, 2018, 04:05:03 pm
Aside from the EVF hump the camera's size looks standard midrange Nikon to me. Assuming the pics are legit, that is.

If Nikon's F mount adapter, assuming there is one, can autofocus AI(S) F lenses I might give it a go.  ;D

-Dave-
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BJL on August 05, 2018, 05:35:40 pm

Either the young lady is tiny or the camera is huge, as big as the D700 I got rid of when I moved to Fuji and bigger than the F2 I traded in when I went digital!!
Her bottom finger falls below the bottom of the camera, and would just fit on the grip if she moved the hand up to have a finger on the shutter release; how do you see the body (as opposed to the lens) being huge? Chinese actresses (she is Dilraba Dilmurat) are not known for huge hands are they?

The EVF does look reassuringly big, judging relative to the hot shoe size.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Rob C on August 05, 2018, 05:50:41 pm
At least the viewfinder appears to be in line with the lens mount, and not stuck off to one side.

That said, it doesn't strike me as a very good-looking object; nobody will beat Leica M-styling for that prize.

Rob
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: shadowblade on August 05, 2018, 05:52:15 pm
Is there anything out there that says this 'full frame' camera is 24x36mm? For the purpose of a teaser - essentially, an announcement-of-an-announcement - they could justifiably call anything 24x36mm and larger full-frame. And, if it were larger, the shock value of the announcement would be extreme.

For a 24x36mm sensor, the lens mount is odd. Some argue about the ability to make faster lenses, but Leica have been making f/0.95 and f/1 lenses for decades, with a mount that's both narrower and deeper than the E-mount. And Nikon themselves have had no problem making f/1.4 primes for their deep and narrow F-mount. With a telecentric design, it doesn't matter what the throat size is, as long as it is at least as large as the sensor - all the light is coming perpendicular to the sensor anyway, so any light passing through the throat not directly in front of the sensor isn't going to hit it. In any case, superfast lenses would only make up a small niche in any manufacturer's customer base - for the bread-and-butter f/2.8 zooms and f/1.4-f/2 primes, all the larger mount does is make the lenses bigger and heavier.

But a larger-than-24x36mm sensor could be Nikon's best trump card. Nikon came late to the full-frame DSLR party, and has suffered badly for it - Canon grabbed the lions share of the market by being first, and has kept it. Now they're also late to the mirrorless party - Sony has incumbency here, and starts with a huge lead in compatible lenses (adapted lenses are never really the same as native, except where there is no AF anyway). But going for a larger format - 30x45mm, 33x44mm, even 36x36mm - and defining that as their new 'full frame' would turn the tables on Sony. Nikon could then easily claim supremacy in imagy quality. Many current Sony users would have a major reason to switch systems - after all, image quality is the reason they switched from Canon in the first place. So would Canon shooters, who would have to switch systems to move to mirrorless anyway. And, for a lens manufacturer working with a closed mount system, it would make it much harder for Sigma et al to compete for the first few years, because they couldn't simply slap a Nikon mount on their existing lenses and call it a day.  Yes, they'd be competing with Fuji, but, comparatively, that is small fry. Sony would struggle to respond - the E-mount can handle 24x36mm, but nothing larger. Even with an edge in sensor technology, a larger sensor is difficult to overcome.

If Nikon came out with a larger sensor, implementing a crop mode to shoot with current lenses via an adapter and designing new lenses around the larger sensor (e.g. 20-40mm, 32-90mm and 90-260mm f/2.8 or f/3.2 zooms), they could well turn the tables on Sony. Even if the initial release were 24x36mm, but they announced that future models would have larger sensors and designed their lenses around them, it would have a similar effect - after all, early DSLRs were all crop models too. And it would justify the mount size and associated lens size. Otherwise, Nikon could again find itself starting from behind, against a larger and better-resourced rival.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 06, 2018, 01:31:36 am
If Nikon came out with a larger sensor, implementing a crop mode to shoot with current lenses via an adapter and designing new lenses around the larger sensor (e.g. 20-40mm, 32-90mm and 90-260mm f/2.8 or f/3.2 zooms), they could well turn the tables on Sony.

Indeed. But then again, I believe that both Nikon and Canon have a clear opportunity to turn the tables on Sony even without going with a larger sensor.

The actual market share of Sony is probably less than 1% of all full frame users out there. Tiny in the grand scheme of things.

The game is only just starting and a vast majority of FF users will stay with the platform that makes it easiest to use their existing glass while offering the best future proofness in a pure mirrorless world. Sony enabled that to some extend for Canon users who were willing to sacrifice some convenience and performance for better sensors/more compact bodies... The same didn't really happen that much for Nikon till date. There is still huge potential for much better native adapters and the size of the mount will be a good measure of future proofness for new mirrorless lenses.

Besides, although Sony has delivered solid cameras with the a7/a9 and have demonstrated great innovation drive, they are far from perfect. They are great compared to the very flawed first iterations, but still half baked compared to what most photographers would like them to be (ergonomics, EVF, ruggedness, battery life,...).

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on August 06, 2018, 02:15:44 am
I thought it was common knowledge that Nikon were launching their mirrorless camera with an adapter to allow current Nikon users to use their existing lens range on the new mirrorless mount. If that is true then the new mirrorless sensor must be no bigger than 24 by 36 or the lenses will not cover it.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: 32BT on August 06, 2018, 02:22:33 am
There's an interesting notion: pure mirrorless world.

Will that ever happen?

A larger format wouldn't make much economical sense me thinks. A larger mount however enables more effective ibis. Perhaps though they added some fancy tricks with sensor movement to accomodate a higher res square image for example, though that strikes me as more gimmicky than sensible and wouldn't dictate a larger mount.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: 32BT on August 06, 2018, 02:26:14 am
I thought it was common knowledge that Nikon were launching their mirrorless camera with an adapter to allow current Nikon users to use their existing lens range on the new mirrorless mount. If that is true then the new mirrorless sensor must be no bigger than 24 by 36 or the lenses will not cover it.

It could still be square 36x36, and at 45mpx you don't exactly need to expose the entire image plane to support a legacy format. Sony also has autoswitch for aps-c lens support on their ff offering.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on August 06, 2018, 02:45:15 am
It could still be square 36x36, and at 45mpx you don't exactly need to expose the entire image plane to support a legacy format. Sony also has autoswitch for aps-c lens support on their ff offering.

Well let’s see. Nikon did say FF. I would think that means FF. Square you think? I would not put serious money on that.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: 32BT on August 06, 2018, 03:04:31 am
Well let’s see. Nikon did say FF. I would think that means FF. Square you think? I would not put serious money on that.

No, i don't think square, in fact i think a different format doesn't make economical sense, but a lens should be able to expose a square. Either way, legacy lens support doesn't dictate the format, but i fully agree: Nikon specifically mentions FX format.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 06, 2018, 03:09:47 am
I thought it was common knowledge that Nikon were launching their mirrorless camera with an adapter to allow current Nikon users to use their existing lens range on the new mirrorless mount. If that is true then the new mirrorless sensor must be no bigger than 24 by 36 or the lenses will not cover it.

That's in fact not an argument against a larger sensor, because Nikon has never prevented the usage of APS-C lenses on FF bodies.

But I don't think the sensor will be larger than 24x36. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: scooby70 on August 06, 2018, 05:43:52 am
Besides, although Sony has delivered solid cameras with the a7/a9 and have demonstrated great innovation drive, they are far from perfect. They are great compared to the very flawed first iterations, but still half baked compared to what most photographers would like them to be (ergonomics, EVF, ruggedness, battery life,...).

Cheers,
Bernard

I do wonder how much of this is true and how much is... well... smelly bovine stuff in a field.

I was an early A7 adopter and I still have my flawed half baked A7. It's been used in all conditions and in all seasons and weathers in streets, forests, hills and beaches in the UK and the far east. I've used it in conditions I could hardly stand up in (once in wind so strong my screen protector blew off) and I've changed lenses multiple times in any and every environment (forests, beaches, hills...) and yet it's hardly missed a beat... I say hardly as it has one issue as there's a black speck in the EVF which looks like a fleck of paint or something, this annoys me but as I grew up with Nikon SLR's which I had for decades and then had Canon DSLR's for over 10 years I'm used to having stuff in the VF.

Reading posts on internet forums I'm amazed that my half baked A7 doesn't slip from my hands and disintegrate, I'm amazed I can use it to take pictures at all.

I'm currently enjoying my A7 and Voigtlander 35mm f1.4 combination.

I wish Nikon well but lets not pretend that anything that doesn't say Nikon on the front is an unusable piece of junk and that the makers should stick to making playstations.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 06, 2018, 06:51:01 am
Never said that, you are over-reacting.

Most Sony a7rIII owners I know describe it as being much much better than the v2 and they described the v2 as being much much better than v1.

The rugdness comment comes from a well know test. It never meant that every a7 would fail at the first drop of rain, just that it can and is behind its DSLR competition.

Not sure why you seem to be taking these as personnal offenses.

You took the decision to be an early adopter of the first version of a new line in a new market segment. It shouldn’t come as a surprise that it isn’t pefect.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: mcbroomf on August 06, 2018, 07:04:35 am
I don't think either of these observations are contradictory.  IMO it's clear that the Sony still has a way to go design wise to meet what I'd consider ergo and robustness thresholds, while at the same time they can keep on plugging away.  I'm also very wary of individual data points.  For example I could mention that I've been using Sony bodies since the Nex 5N days, having owned most bodies, when switching to FF have owned a pair of each of the R bodies (rather than S or regular 7 series).  I've had to replace a bent body flange on one body (A7R I think), and both of my A7R3 bodies failed for 2 different reasons within a week of each other recently (each took a week for repair under Pro support).  I could also mention the times my older 1Ds type bodies had to go in for repair.  What does that prove or show?  Nothing ....
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on August 06, 2018, 07:44:33 am
The actual market share of Sony is probably less than 1% of all full frame users out there. Tiny in the grand scheme of things.

Bernard, A7's have already been seeling for 5 years, and selling well. Do you really think in a market where average camera lifetime must be over 3-4 years, i.e. most users bought a new body with the A7's on the market, only 1 out of every 100 FF users has a Sony? I think you are being far too pesimistic here. Or you missed a 0 perhaps?.

Regards
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 06, 2018, 08:05:42 am
Bernard, A7's have already been seeling for 5 years, and selling well. Do you really think in a market where average camera lifetime must be over 3-4 years, i.e. most users bought a new body with the A7's on the market, only 1 out of every 100 FF users has a Sony? I think you are being far too pesimistic here. Or you missed a 0 perhaps?.

No, it seems about right.

FF cameras have been out for many many years. And even after Sony released the a7, it has been consistently outsold by Canon and Nikon FF DSLRs.

It could be 2% or 0.5%, but it is this order of magnitude.

You can build a quick Excel and do the math for yourself.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Kiwi Paul on August 06, 2018, 08:12:33 am
Exciting times ahead, a lot of speculation at the moment, I'm not that invested in any system at the moment either, at least in full frame terms, I have an A72 and 2 primes and 2 zooms so it wouldn't be that bigger deal for me to jump ship if it suited me, I love the Sony gear but I'm not a fan boy of any system in that respect.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on August 06, 2018, 10:07:26 am
No, it seems about right.

FF cameras have been out for many many years. And even after Sony released the a7, it has been consistently outsold by Canon and Nikon FF DSLRs.

It could be 2% or 0.5%, but it is this order of magnitude.

You can build a quick Excel and do the math for yourself.

I'm sorry Bernard but I don't swallow that by far. I don't have the needed figures to make a calculation (if you do I'd be delighetd to see them), but an order of magnitude of 1% is basically irrelevant. Are you telling me Sigma, Laowa, Tamron and other little brands have launched specific E-mount FF lenses just for 1% of the market share?.

I insist, if the camera lifecycle is about 3-4 years, almost every FF user had to renew its FF body with A7 options already in the market (you did and chose the D850, I did and chose the A7 II). Even if Sony were outsold by Canon and Nikon, do you mean Sony's sales market share is so negligible as to just achieve 1 out of every 100 users in half a decade?.

This was 2014 sales market share, and today the A7 III is globally outselling Canikon FF models.

(https://petapixel.com/assets/uploads/2015/12/marketshare.jpg)


Moreover in terms of customer "churn" having a smaller customer base means Sony is in its lifecycle period where it can easily get positive "net adds" (i.e. increase its customer base), while surely Canon and Nikon have entered negative "net adds" because of their much larger customer base moving to the competition. 1% would simply mean this process isn't occurring which is plain wrong. Everytime I travel I see more and more A7's. Even if there are more DSLR's I don't see just one A7 for every 99 Canikon FF's, do you? for every friend with a Sony, do you have 99 friends with a Canikon?. I doubt it.

Regards



Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: 32BT on August 06, 2018, 10:41:59 am
I insist, if the camera lifecycle is about 3-4 years, almost every FF user had to renew its FF body with A7 options already in the market (you did and chose the D850, I did and chose the A7 II). Even if Sony were outsold by Canon and Nikon, do you mean Sony's sales market share is so negligible as to just achieve 1 out of every 100 users in half a decade?.

If your replenishconjectue were true (which i highly doubt), then you could calculate the marketshare as follows:
If Sony replenished 0% of the market at the launch of the A7 and subsequently grew to 13%, then the total marketshare is the average replenishrate = 13% divided by nr of years.

Means Sony can have at most 3% marketshare.

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on August 06, 2018, 11:20:23 am
If Sony replenished 0% of the market at the launch of the A7 and subsequently grew to 13%, then the total marketshare is the average replenishrate = 13% divided by nr of years.

Means Sony can have at most 3% marketshare.

That 13% was 2014 sales Sony's marketshare, not today's. Today Sony is selling more FF than Canon and Nikon thanks to the A7 III; it will not last long though.

Information is insufficient but I have made an Excel which in spite of its numerous assumptions (only 50% of FF users bought a new FF body from 2014-2018 and those who did only bought one, users are only Canikon or Sony never mixed, total market is stable, yearly body sales remain constant,...) is unable to reach figures like the 1% suggested by Bernard:

(http://www.guillermoluijk.com/misc/mirrorlessconjectures.png)


Here is the Excel to play with. Green cells can be adjusted.

http://www.guillermoluijk.com/misc/mirrorless.xlsx


I don't like to calculate customer base shares without knowing the precise customer base figures, but this is the best I can figure out from available data.

Regards
 
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming soon
Post by: BJL on August 06, 2018, 12:12:47 pm
@shadowblade, the Nikon press release specifically says “FX”, so it is 36x24mm.

If the claims of throat diameters like 65mm were true, that would be more than makes sense for 36x24, but the measurements suggesting 51-54 are too small for 44x33; modern fast lenses with exit pupil far higher than the depth of this mount need a throat wider than the image circle. (Leica M does not have the fast telephoto lenses  like 200/2 and 400/2.8 that need a wide throat most.)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming soon
Post by: shadowblade on August 06, 2018, 01:04:27 pm
@shadowblade, the Nikon press release specifically says “FX”, so it is 36x24mm.

For this camera, yes. But it says nothing about future cameras using the same mount and lenses. And a larger lens mount can offer more forward compatibility with future, larger sensors.

After all, Canon APS-H and APS-F cameras use the same mount, as do Phase One and Mamiya bodies with different sensor sizes.

Quote
If the claims of throat diameters like 65mm were true, that would be more than makes sense for 36x24, but the measurements suggesting 51-54 are too small for 44x33; modern fast lenses with exit pupil far higher than the depth of this mount need a throat wider than the image circle. (Leica M does not have the fast telephoto lenses  like 200/2 and 400/2.8 that need a wide throat most.)

Yet Sony has a 400/2.8 for the E-mount, while Nikon has 200/2 and 400/2.8 (and other fast telephotos) for the even smaller and deeper F-mount. Not to mention the PC-E 19mm, which manages to put a wide-angle tilt-shift lens through a narrow throat and deep mount. And you can use any of Canon's long telephotos on E-mount cameras without any optical issues. So, clearly, outside of some extreme lenses, with a likely very small customer base, 46-47mm is a wide enough throat for 24x36mm sensors, with larger mounts adding size without necessarily adding capability.

Of course, it all depends how big this lens mount actually is. F-mount puts a sensor with a 43mm diagonal behind a 44mm mount. 33x44mm sensors have a 55mm diameter - if the mount is 51-54mm in diameter, it would not be able to accommodate this, but a 58mm diameter mount could accommodate it quite comfortably.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 06, 2018, 01:12:08 pm
We don’t have the data, but one input is that there is still a huge number of 5D2/6D and D700/D600 out there it seems.

I believe that your assumption that the average renewal period of FF cameras is 3-4 years is not representative of the reality of the market. It is probably true for the rich hobbyist roaming LL, but most people, starting with many second league pros never upgrade.

We could look at Flickr, but even that would ignore the huge mass of dormant shooters.

But ok, even if Sony has 5 or even 10% of FF cameras (which seems very unlikely) the story remains the same. Canon and Nikon are still by far in a dominant position to convert the remaining 90% of the market to their own mirrorless platform.

I don’t particularly like this situation, but it is the reality resulting from these 2 companies having sold in excess of 100 million lenses.


Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: chez on August 06, 2018, 02:17:13 pm
We don’t have the data, but one input is that there is still a huge number of 5D2/6D and D700/D600 out there it seems.

I believe that your assumption that the average renewal period of FF cameras is 3-4 years is not representative of the reality of the market. It is probably true for the rich hobbyist roaming LL, but most people, starting with many second league pros never upgrade.

We could look at Flickr, but even that would ignore the huge mass of dormant shooters.

But ok, even if Sony has 5 or even 10% of FF cameras (which seems very unlikely) the story remains the same. Canon and Nikon are still by far in a dominant position to convert the remaining 90% of the market to their own mirrorless platform.

I don’t particularly like this situation, but it is the reality resulting from these 2 companies having sold in excess of 100 million lenses.


Cheers,
Bernard

Nikons market share has been dropping steadily over the last 5 years...this is right out of their financial statements. It is now less than 25% of ICL cameras sold in 2017. Canon has held steady. Mirror less cameras have been eating away at Nikon's share.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 06, 2018, 03:46:16 pm
Nikons market share has been dropping steadily over the last 5 years...this is right out of their financial statements. It is now less than 25% of ICL cameras sold in 2017. Canon has held steady. Mirror less cameras have been eating away at Nikon's share.

I don't believe that this is the case speaking of FF.

Nikon has been loosing to Canon in APS-C body kit sales but increasing its relative marketshare in the high end FF segment. The continued success of the D750/D800/D810/D850 over their Canon equivalent should be ample proof of this. I believe that Sony has been gaining very clearly marketshare over Canon in this segment, I am not too sure about Sony vs Nikon. They may have also, not too sure.

Future will tell, but I believe that this is the segment that matters when assessing the future potential of camera companies.

As I wrote elsewhere, to my eyes low end APS-C DSLR kits are deadman walking. They will be swept away by mobile phones within a couple of years.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BJL on August 06, 2018, 04:37:45 pm
@shadowblade, yes 58mm might be barely enough, the Hasselblad’s new X Mount is 61mm and Fujifilm’s G mount is about 63 or 65. Sony’s E mount is about 46, so about 3mm wider than the 36x24 image circle.

Your examples of using the same mount for different formats involve starting with the larger format with film and then reusing the mount with a smaller format for the sake of using exiting lenses: going small to large is harder, as optimal lens designs for the smaller format risk vignetting with the larger.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: chez on August 06, 2018, 07:02:00 pm
I don't believe that this is the case speaking of FF.

Cheers,
Bernard

What data do you have to make you not believe this?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 06, 2018, 08:12:12 pm
What data do you have to make you not believe this?

I did consult with a fortune teller from Ouganda whose brother in law works at CIPA.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: chez on August 06, 2018, 09:50:03 pm
I did consult with a fortune teller from Ouganda whose brother in law works at CIPA.

Cheers,
Bernard

Yep thought so...digging deep to retrieve something huh?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 06, 2018, 10:10:39 pm
Yep thought so...digging deep to retrieve something huh?

Not being able to convince you that I am right would be a serious let down...

On the other hand, do you have data to prove me wrong?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: chez on August 06, 2018, 10:35:42 pm
Not being able to convince you that I am right would be a serious let down...

On the other hand, do you have data to prove me wrong?

Cheers,
Bernard

Well what I claimed came right from Nikon's financial presentations...what you claimed came from your...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: hubell on August 06, 2018, 11:02:07 pm
That's in fact not an argument against a larger sensor, because Nikon has never prevented the usage of APS-C lenses on FF bodies.

But I don't think the sensor will be larger than 24x36. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

I suppose you are right that THIS camera will be FF, but I am not at all sure what to make of Nikon’s explicit statement in the latest video teaser that the new camera is the “Gateway to a New Dimension.” That in combination with the almost psychedelic depiction of the mount on the new camera. I mean if it’s just another regular old FF 24/36 sensor, why bother yelling about a new “dimension” and showcasing a pulsing lens mount?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 06, 2018, 11:12:57 pm
I suppose you are right that THIS camera will be FF, but I am not at all sure what to make of Nikon’s explicit statement in the latest video teaser that the new camera is the “Gateway to a New Dimension.” That in combination with the almost psychedelic depiction of the mount on the new camera. I mean if it’s just another regular old FF 24/36 sensor, why bother yelling about a new “dimension” and showcasing a pulsing lens mount?

My guess is that this is about the mount itself that is larger than F mount.

Now, various Sony users have invested a lot of thread time to demonstrate that the E mount is large enough and it could be argued that the F mount has not prevented Nikon from releasing amazing lenses, yet it seems that Nikon thinks that designing their new system around a larger mount has enough advantages that they are centering their whole communication around this aspect.

So I understand your questioning. Either they don't know what they are doing, or we may know more on Aug-23rd. :)

If there is indeed a larger sensor somewhere down the road that is a key reason for the larger mount, then I would expect Nikon to mention this very clearly during the actual launch.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 06, 2018, 11:20:20 pm
Well what I claimed came right from Nikon's financial presentations...what you claimed came from your...

Could you please share the link to the page where Nikon claims that they have declining market share compared to Canon in the high end FF body segment?

Thanks.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on August 07, 2018, 05:18:27 am
My guess is that this is about the mount itself that is larger than F mount.

Now, various Sony users have invested a lot of thread time to demonstrate that the E mount is large enough and it could be argued that the F mount has not prevented Nikon from releasing amazing lenses, yet it seems that Nikon thinks that designing their new system around a larger mount has enough advantages that they are centering their whole communication around this aspect.

So I understand your questioning. Either they don't know what they are doing, or we may know more on Aug-23rd. :)

If there is indeed a larger sensor somewhere down the road that is a key reason for the larger mount, then I would expect Nikon to mention this very clearly during the actual launch.

Cheers,
Bernard

What I am expecting is the larger than previous mount (Z > F) will facilitate the design and use of 0.95 lenses. I remember some rumours around that, not sure from where, there is so much stuff going around... I suppose that will qualify as a "new dimension"? Or it could simply be that this "new dimension" is just a qualification of the new Z mount being larger than the F mount?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on August 07, 2018, 06:06:58 am
I suppose you are right that THIS camera will be FF, but I am not at all sure what to make of Nikon’s explicit statement in the latest video teaser that the new camera is the “Gateway to a New Dimension.” That in combination with the almost psychedelic depiction of the mount on the new camera. I mean if it’s just another regular old FF 24/36 sensor, why bother yelling about a new “dimension” and showcasing a pulsing lens mount?

Let’s all get a grip here. It’s hyperbole isn’t it. Or marketing if you prefer. “A gateway to a New Dimention” as an explicit statement seems highly unlikely to be based on any kind of truth unless Nikon has in fact managed to cram a little black hole into that magnificent new lens mount.  Call me sceptical but I think that’s unlikely. Let’s assume it’s not in fact a gateway to another dimension and that statement is false. Let’s assume Nikon is just trying to generate excitement for something other than a wormhole. Could be just a nice new mirrorless camera. I bet that’s what it is.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 07, 2018, 07:31:20 am
Let’s all get a grip here. It’s hyperbole isn’t it. Or marketing if you prefer. “A gateway to a New Dimention” as an explicit statement seems highly unlikely to be based on any kind of truth unless Nikon has in fact managed to cram a little black hole into that magnificent new lens mount.  Call me sceptical but I think that’s unlikely. Let’s assume it’s not in fact a gateway to another dimension and that statement is false. Let’s assume Nikon is just trying to generate excitement for something other than a wormhole. Could be just a nice new mirrorless camera. I bet that’s what it is.

There are of course theories claiming that our conscious experience is nothing but an instance of our being living in a local time frame while being connected to other instances of the same being living their own experiences elsewhere in space and time.

Nikon may have discovered a way to connect owners of their mirrorless body with their being across time and space.

I wonder whether Sony users would agree that this would be a revolution? Of does the a7 already do this?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Rob C on August 07, 2018, 08:41:31 am
Let’s all get a grip here. It’s hyperbole isn’t it. Or marketing if you prefer. “A gateway to a New Dimention” as an explicit statement seems highly unlikely to be based on any kind of truth unless Nikon has in fact managed to cram a little black hole into that magnificent new lens mount.  Call me sceptical but I think that’s unlikely. Let’s assume it’s not in fact a gateway to another dimension and that statement is false. Let’s assume Nikon is just trying to generate excitement for something other than a wormhole. Could be just a nice new mirrorless camera. I bet that’s what it is.


I believe you are absolutely right: a "new dimension"  is the same crap as car makers offer you - usually on the trip to and from work. Nothing changes, only the way to sell the same old same old; the new dimension, if and when you get into it, usually means you just got more poor.

I'd love us both to be wrong, but even if we are and heaven does appear to us, complete with its seventh dimension, I have no intention of selling my old D200 (which gets used, on and off) and its replacement, my seldom-used (but much loved) D700. I have no des¡re to buy any other cameras; why would I - I'm all the snapper I ever will be or was. Ain'¡t nothing gonna improve that, but plenty could make it worse!

(If that qualifies as rant, then apologies to Oscar!)

;-)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on August 07, 2018, 08:44:00 am
Hahaha. Nope Bernard. The Sony is just a camera. At this point though an actual camera that I shot about 120 images with this morning.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: chez on August 07, 2018, 09:17:05 am
Could you please share the link to the page where Nikon claims that they have declining market share compared to Canon in the high end FF body segment?

Thanks.

Cheers,
Bernard

Go to the Nikon financial pages, open up the different years presentations and look at the graphs of the individual segments. It shows Nikon's view of total cameras and lenses sold and Nikon's shares.

Their share has been sliding steadily every year for the last 5 years if not more. Down to less than 23% of ILC sold last year. They used to compete with Canon in the 40% range not too long ago.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: 32BT on August 07, 2018, 09:59:13 am

(If that qualifies as rant, then apologies to Oscar!)


Duly noted, acceptance under consideration.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: 32BT on August 07, 2018, 10:01:23 am

Nikon may have discovered a way to connect owners of their mirrorless body with their being across time and space.

Bernard

Ha, the best definition of selfie if there ever was one. Perhaps the new dimension refers to a flipup lcd, god forbid...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: davidgp on August 07, 2018, 10:08:04 am
Hi,

Ok, let's contradict everybody so you all hate me and agree on something :D .

According to Nikei: https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/nikkei-report-sony-now-has-a-13-3-market-share-in-the-system-camera-market/ (and yes, the source of the graphs is not a very partial site... but first, you need to pay to access to Nikei analysis and second... my japanese is quite rusty), Sony has right now 13,3% of the interchangable lens market in 2017 (this is not taking into consideration things like the Sony A7 III or great part of the sales of Nikon D850). Considering that me main group of released cameras of Sony in the last years where FF, I assume their FF shared market is bigger than 1% as it was commented. In the article they also comment that Sony is growing in number of total sales around 2.9% with respect the previous year (2016).

Nikon did not grow last year in, around -0.6%, in total cameras sales (according to Nikei analysis). Nikon is saying that they had more than expected sales of the D850: https://www.the-digital-picture.com/News/News-Post.aspx?News=27344 , that has made their operational profit bigger than previous year. Nikon recognizes the increase of Mirrorless is hurting them:

"In the Imaging Products Business, revenue declined year on year due to a decrease in unit sales of digital cameras overall. Operating profit, however, increased significantly as a result of strong sales of the D850, a digital SLR camera which optimizes the combination of high resolution and high-speed performance, as well as efforts made in
cost improvement and reduction of expenses. " - https://www.nikon.com/about/ir/ir_library/result/pdf/2019/19first_1_e.pdf

Canon is still growing, with an increase of 3.9% (according to Nikei). This is also confirmed by the financial report of Canon: https://www.the-digital-picture.com/News/News-Post.aspx?News=27279

I couldn't find any study or official data about FF camera sales per manufacturer and market share. If somebody has one at hand, I will appreciate if they can share it. Until them, it is speculation.

Regards,

David
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: KLaban on August 07, 2018, 10:38:00 am
...I'm all the snapper I ever will be or was. Ain'¡t nothing gonna improve that, but plenty could make it worse!...

Rob, that sounds suspiciously like standing still or being stuck in the mud.

I used to be a whippersnapper and crap snapper to boot. Over the years experience in combination with new opportunities and technologies have hopefully resulted in a little progress. No way would I want to stand still, let alone regress. If I thought for a moment that I'm all that I will ever be or was I'd give up.

Apologies if this reads as the ever so slightly tongue-in-cheek rant it was meant to be.

;-)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: shadowblade on August 07, 2018, 01:34:52 pm
What I am expecting is the larger than previous mount (Z > F) will facilitate the design and use of 0.95 lenses. I remember some rumours around that, not sure from where, there is so much stuff going around... I suppose that will qualify as a "new dimension"? Or it could simply be that this "new dimension" is just a qualification of the new Z mount being larger than the F mount?

Doesn't exactly sound like a great justification for a much larger mount. f/0.95 or f/1.0 lenses would be a tiny proportion of usage and lens sales. Even if these could be made a bit smaller by using a wider throat, the wider throat would necessitate making every other lens larger to accommodate it - not exactly a good tradeoff when the bread and butter lenses are the f/2.8 zooms, f/1.4-2.0 primes and, for a small subset of fast action cameras, the superteles. Anything faster really belongs in the niche area of oddball artistic lenses rather than the category of general working lenses.

Besides, Leica has made f/0.95 and f/1.0 lenses for the 44mm M-mount, Nikon has made f/1.2 lenses for the 44mm F-mount and Canon made f/1.0 lenses for the 47mm FD mount. And Nikon and now Sony have both made fast superteles (400mm f/2.8) compatible with throat diameters in that range. You can use the Noctilux on an E-mount camera with no optical problems, and you can also use a Canon 400/2.8 or 600/4.0 lens (both designed for much wider throat diameters) on EF-M or E-mount with no optical problems.

EF-M and E-mount's 46mm is actually quite middle-of-the-road for 24x36mm-format lenses - some lens mounts designed for 35mm film had throat diameters as small as 39mm (although these obviously couldn't take telecentric lenses), while some designed for 6x6 film (56x56mm) were as narrow as 57mm. And many of these mounts were designed and made before digital, before high ISO, before fast film, when superfast lenses actually were a necessity just to prevent motion blur. Really, it's Canon's EF mount which is the anomaly here, not F-mount, M-mount or E-mount, which are all in the same ballpark.

I'm not saying there's no justification for a larger throat - just that fast lenses are unlikely to be the reason, unless Nikon has decided to move into a niche market rather than primarily targeting their bread-and-butter audience.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 07, 2018, 02:54:40 pm
Go to the Nikon financial pages, open up the different years presentations and look at the graphs of the individual segments. It shows Nikon's view of total cameras and lenses sold and Nikon's shares.

Their share has been sliding steadily every year for the last 5 years if not more. Down to less than 23% of ILC sold last year. They used to compete with Canon in the 40% range not too long ago.

Right... you (and Nikon) are talking about all DSLRs + the mirrorless 1 series, I am talking about high end FF.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: chez on August 07, 2018, 03:36:55 pm
Right... you (and Nikon) are talking about all DSLRs + the mirrorless 1 series, I am talking about high end FF.

Cheers,
Bernard

Yes, but we don't have these numbers so all you are doing is guessing. So purely meaningless then. Actual figures of ILC sold show Nikon slipping by quite a lot in the last 5+ years. Not too long ago they were right up there with Canon in market share, now they are 1/2 their size and it's basically mirror less that has been eating Nikon's shorts while Canon holds its own.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 07, 2018, 03:52:56 pm
Yes, but we don't have these numbers so all you are doing is guessing. So purely meaningless then. Actual figures of ILC sold show Nikon slipping by quite a lot in the last 5+ years. Not too long ago they were right up there with Canon in market share, now they are 1/2 their size and it's basically mirror less that has been eating Nikon's shorts while Canon holds its own.

This is just a guess of yours too my friend. My guess is that there has simply been less renewal among Nikon DSLRs shooters because the lower end bodies they were selling 5 ears ago were already based on best in class Sony sensors, already had excellent AF performance, while Canon low end bodies were still leaving a lot to be desired. Combined with top class sales and marketing techniques, Canon has simply been able to push many more cheap boxes through their channels.

But to the point, there is solid evidence from monthly sales numbers that Nikon has been selling significantly more high end FF bodies that Canon has, which means that the have increased their share in the upper value market.

This evidence is backed up by our local experience here at LL where the number of Canon FF shooters has been dropping significantly, which hasn't been the case for Nikon shooters.

But anyway, we are not going to agree on this so I'll just leave it at that.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Rob C on August 07, 2018, 04:10:03 pm
Peter Lindbergh uses Nikon.

So that's settled.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: shadowblade on August 07, 2018, 05:08:33 pm
Bear in mind that Nikon hasn't updated the D610 and D750 in years, while Canon has released the 6D2 and 5D4. You get a spike in sales every time you bring out a new camera, and, at the lower end of the full frame range, Canon's been doing that a lot more than Nikon. Performance has little to do with it - people buying cameras at that end of the full-frame spectrum are likely not looking at differences in base-ISO DR or a camera's ability to track a diving bird plunging into water against a busy background of reeds in low light.

Given this, I doubt we'll see a D620, D650 or D760. Nikon's first mirrorless body will not be D5 class, but will be a D610/D750 replacement, competing against, and in the same price bracket as, the A7III. It's a much safer proposition - far less demanding on the AF, viewfinder and other non-optical, non-sensor performance aspects (especially for a first-generation body) and replacing two bodies which are due for replacement anyway. Probably launched with a 24-70/2.8, a 70-200/2.8 or 24-105/4.0, and a prime (50mm or 85mm) - a good starting kit for basic users. If they're smart, they'll include an adapter for current F-mount lenses in the kit, just like Sony included a Metabones adapter. They may also launch a high-resolution A7r3 competitor, although this would be a riskier proposition with more demands on performance and would cannibalise the D850.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 07, 2018, 07:21:01 pm
We will know in 3 weeks if your forecast regarding the positioning of the Nikon mirrorless is correct or not.

Shall we agree that you’ll either be right or wrong on everything else also?

For the record, the rumors disagree with you since they claim that we will both get a a7III and a7rIII/a9 competitors with better than D5 AF. The teaser also screams high end, but...

Cheers,
Bernard

P.s.: the AF of the a7III appears to be superior to that of the a7rIII...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: shadowblade on August 07, 2018, 07:54:06 pm
We will know in 3 weeks if your forecast regarding the positioning of the Nikon mirrorless is correct or not.

Shall we agree that you’ll either be right or wrong on everything else also?

For the record, the rumors disagree with you since they claim that we will both get a a7III and a7rIII/a9 competitors with better than D5 AF. The teaser also screams high end, but...

Cheers,
Bernard

P.s.: the AF of the a7III appears to be superior to that of the a7rIII...

Right. So Nikon will release an A7-like camera, with higher resolution than the A7r3, with better AF than the D5. And pigs might fly.

Re: AF performance. A7III tracks over a wider area of the sensor. A7R3 has better eye AF (works at a greater distance). Both seem just as fast tracking something within the area of their respective PDAF zones.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: chez on August 07, 2018, 08:03:49 pm
And pigs might fly.

I think your line of thinking can be used in the Nikon marketing department. Shoot with the new Nikon mirror less and you will see pigs fly by in the viewfinder.

Nikon...the first PIF camera...Pigs in Flight.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 07, 2018, 08:37:47 pm
Right. So Nikon will release an A7-like camera, with higher resolution than the A7r3, with better AF than the D5. And pigs might fly.

The rumors speak about 2 cameras using 24 and 45 mp. Nothing really impossible so far.

I agree with you, the D5 is hard to beat. We will see.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 20199
Post by: D Fuller on August 07, 2018, 10:33:07 pm
Right. So Nikon will release an A7-like camera, with higher resolution than the A7r3, with better AF than the D5. And pigs might fly.

Re: AF performance. A7III tracks over a wider area of the sensor. A7R3 has better eye AF (works at a greater distance). Both seem just as fast tracking something within the area of their respective PDAF zones.

I don’t think this scenario is likely at all. We’re all guessing here, of course, so here’s mine...

I think, based on the Nikonrumor site’s releases, that there will be two cameras in quick succession, if not at the same time. One will be a high-res tour-de-force camera in the D850 class that competes with the A7R3 in features and bests it in resolution and ergonomics (for many people). I think it’s autofocus will be very good, but not D5 good, and I expect it will have all of the technology tricks of the D850 like automated focus stacking and time lapse. And I expect (maybe the right word is hope) that it will have the best, highest-scan-rate, highest-DR viewfinder on the market.

I expect the other camera to be a 24Mpix, A73 class camera—a camera with a lower price for a larger market, with very good low light performance and autofocus, but not D5/A9 class autofocus. To do that would make it cost too much for this target market.

Next year, I expect at least two more. One will be an A9 class mirrorless with top-shelf autofocus and frame rates and a price to match. This one will be in the 24Mpix range, because all of the class-leading autofocus cameras are in that range: D5, A9, 1D, & SL all twenty-something megapixels, and I think that’s not just coincidence, I think physics are at play there.

The fourth camera, I have no idea. If Nikon really wanted to make a splash in the video world, they’d release a low-light monster that records 10-bit, high-bitrate video, and outputs 10-bit uncompressed to its HDMI port. If it can autofocus video well, that camera would turn a lot of heads.

Or they could go the APS-C route with the fourth one, though that requires another set of lenses.

That’s my prediction, with the benefit of no actual insight or inside info at all. Anybody setting up a pool?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Two23 on August 07, 2018, 11:33:50 pm
Peter Lindbergh uses Nikon.


Never mind Peter Lindbergh.  What about Peter Lik? ;D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMgg1SVy6zc


Kent in SD
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 20199
Post by: shadowblade on August 08, 2018, 12:01:14 am
I don’t think this scenario is likely at all. We’re all guessing here, of course, so here’s mine...

I think, based on the Nikonrumor site’s releases, that there will be two cameras in quick succession, if not at the same time. One will be a high-res tour-de-force camera in the D850 class that competes with the A7R3 in features and bests it in resolution and ergonomics (for many people). I think it’s autofocus will be very good, but not D5 good, and I expect it will have all of the technology tricks of the D850 like automated focus stacking and time lapse. And I expect (maybe the right word is hope) that it will have the best, highest-scan-rate, highest-DR viewfinder on the market.

I expect the other camera to be a 24Mpix, A73 class camera—a camera with a lower price for a larger market, with very good low light performance and autofocus, but not D5/A9 class autofocus. To do that would make it cost too much for this target market.

That's pretty much what I wrote in my earlier post. The notion that Nikon will make a do-everything supercamera that outperforms both the A7r3 in resolution and D5 in AF, then sell it at a price competitive with the A7III, is just fanboy wishful thinking. I doubt Nikon can even make a mirrorless AF system that matches the D5, 1Dx2 or A9 at the moment. Maybe for the next generation, but not this one.

As I said, I'd expect a 24MP A7III-class camera, with a few core lenses to match. That is, f/2.8 zooms and f/1.4-1.8 primes in the 35-85mm range, not esoteric superfast lenses with limited market appeal. The second camera, if they release one at the same time, will be a high-resolution body, probably using the D850's sensor. I doubt it will match the A7r3 performance-wise, due to being Nikon's first-generation mirrorless camera, but that will be of little consequence to many people who prioritise resolution, and Nikon may undercut the A7r3 on price, given that their camera will have a much smaller lens selection, possibly lower non-sensor performance and due to the need to build up market share. Essentially, it would be like Sony's 2013 release of the A7 and A7r - one entry-level and low-resolution,  as well as a higher-resolution body.

It will be interesting to see Sony's next move. No doubt they will know what Nikon are making - after all, they make Nikon's sensors (for mirrorless cameras, this includes the sensor-based aspects of the AF system), and may also be making their EVFs (Sony being one of the main manufacturers of EVFs). Since the Nikon bodies will have been in development for years, the Sony response will likely have been in development for almost as long.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 20199
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 08, 2018, 12:24:20 am
The notion that Nikon will make a do-everything supercamera that outperforms both the A7r3 in resolution and D5 in AF, then sell it at a price competitive with the A7III, is just fanboy wishful thinking.

You are the only person in this thread who wrote about this possibility...

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 20199
Post by: shadowblade on August 08, 2018, 12:54:01 am
You are the only person in this thread who wrote about this possibility...

Cheers,
Bernard

Your own words:
, the rumors disagree with you since they claim that we will both get a a7III and a7rIII/a9 competitors with better than D5 AF.

A camera that competes with the A7III, A7r3 and A9 would have to beat the A7III on price, A7r3 on image quality/resolution and A9 on AF/frame rate. Not going to happen.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BJL on August 08, 2018, 01:25:53 am
@shadowblade, I agree that a 50/0.95 is not a real priority; if made it would be a “because we can now” like the Canon 50/1 was for EF mount. To repeat, the main benefits of extra mount width are easier designs for low aperture ratios at focal lengths that are many times the mount depth and benefitting from an exit pupil height far greater than the mount depth. Things like Canon’s 85/1.2, or a 135/1.4 or 200/2 or 400/2.8 are easier to design with less light fall-off (mild vignetting) near the corners. I could post a formula for throat diameter needs based on exit pupil height, f-stop and mount depth.

And it gives IBIS more room to move the sensor, not a factor in any film-era design.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 20199
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 08, 2018, 01:40:26 am
Your own words:
A camera that competes with the A7III, A7r3 and A9 would have to beat the A7III on price, A7r3 on image quality/resolution and A9 on AF/frame rate. Not going to happen.

No:
- I am mentioning 2 cameras
- I am not speaking about price

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 20199
Post by: davidgp on August 08, 2018, 02:42:56 am
So, my bet, Nikon will say that both their cameras have the best AF system in their class (Sony always says that in their marketing material... ), fanboys will claim that it is the truth... Anyway, in terms of market, and according to rumors, Nikon will release two cameras:

- A 24 megapixel camera, focusing in prize, that will take the place of their D6XX and D7XX line. This will be a camera with better AF system of the two (Sony A7 III has better AF that the Sony A7r III, in fact, it has the same AF system as the A9, just slower chip reading the image from the sensor, making it imposible to reach 20 fps and that good nearly no-rolling-shutter electronic shutter). This will be the high selling camera for Nikon.

- A 45 megapixel camera (or around that amount... but I suspect Nikon will use the same 45 megapixel sensor of D850 with AF system over it to save costs, they already paid for the design and manufacturing fine tunning of it, now it is just ordering a new batch of them), focusing on image quality and resolution, to attract the possible buyers of a Sony a7r III or D850.

I'm not expecting a Nikon megacamera that beats everything... that it is just wishful thinking. Those two will cover nicely the market of people thinking to switch to a Nikon mirrorless system.

It will be interesting to see Sony's next move. No doubt they will know what Nikon are making - after all, they make Nikon's sensors (for mirrorless cameras, this includes the sensor-based aspects of the AF system), and may also be making their EVFs (Sony being one of the main manufacturers of EVFs). Since the Nikon bodies will have been in development for years, the Sony response will likely have been in development for almost as long.

Sony will probably do nothing. They released end of last year the a7r III and this year the A7 III. Those cameras will still be on the market for another year before being replaced. By the end of the year we will probably see the A7s III, more focused on video and low sensitivity (the A7 III has a sensor that has a high-ISO noise similar to the A7s II right now..., Sony has to best themselves there). Of course, this camera will need to best the Panasonic GH5/GH5s in terms of video features... that it is their competitor in the SLR video market. Maybe we see the infamous a6700...

Next year we maybe see an A9 II... or maybe beginning 2020. Sony will want to have more people in Tokyo Olympics in 2020. And of course, continuing making new lenses.

I highly doubt Sony Imaging Products and Solutions has inside information from the Sony Semiconductors company.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 20199
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on August 08, 2018, 05:58:51 am
No:
- I am mentioning 2 cameras
- I am not speaking about price

Cheers,
Bernard

I agree on the 2 cameras scenario, like Sony did at launch: A7 and A7R.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 20199
Post by: chez on August 08, 2018, 08:54:53 am


I highly doubt Sony Imaging Products and Solutions has inside information from the Sony Semiconductors company.

Why do you say that?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 20199
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 08, 2018, 09:22:12 am
Why do you say that?

Because Sony Semi-conductor, as part of the Sony group, strives to meet very high ethical standards in terms of not leaking their customers information?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 20199
Post by: E.J. Peiker on August 08, 2018, 09:49:39 am
Because Sony Semi-conductor, as part of the Sony group, strives to meet very high ethical standards in terms of not leaking their customers information?

Cheers,
Bernard

This reminds me of my 27 year career at Intel.  There was absolutely zero cross-talk between the unit that worked with the Windows PC industry and the unit that worked with Apple.  Even when Apple announced it was switching from Motorola to Intel processors, it took virtually everyone, except the super secret Intel/Apple team by surprise.  Even the most senior people, except those that had an absolute need to know, had no idea.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 20199
Post by: davidgp on August 08, 2018, 09:58:31 am
Why do you say that?

Because Sony Imaging Products commented that several times in interviews... they don't get inside information about what the company is doing to other competitors.

One of the reasons that Sony did making Sony Semiconductors an independent company was to make imaging products competitors (from mobile phones to cameras) less worried that Sony could get inside information from their designs.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 20199
Post by: davidgp on August 08, 2018, 10:01:07 am
This reminds me of my 27 year career at Intel.  There was absolutely zero cross-talk between the unit that worked with the Windows PC industry and the unit that worked with Apple.  Even when Apple announced it was switching from Motorola to Intel processors, it took virtually everyone, except the super secret Intel/Apple team by surprise.  Even the most senior people, except those that had an absolute need to know, had no idea.

Yes, there is lot of examples like that in tech semiconductor industry...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 20199
Post by: chez on August 08, 2018, 10:54:22 am
Because Sony Imaging Products commented that several times in interviews... they don't get inside information about what the company is doing to other competitors.

One of the reasons that Sony did making Sony Semiconductors an independent company was to make imaging products competitors (from mobile phones to cameras) less worried that Sony could get inside information from their designs.

There has also been statements that the semiconductor group reserves their latest sensor developments for the Sony cameras...before offering the technology to others.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: davidgp on August 08, 2018, 01:04:18 pm
There has also been statements that the semiconductor group reserves their latest sensor developments for the Sony cameras...before offering the technology to others.

That was a confusion created by an interview done by Imaging Resource, they clarified that Sony does not keep sensor technology for themselves, you can read the clarification here: https://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2017/03/26/sony-thailand-factory-tour-qa-mapping-out-the-future-of-the-interchangeable together with a very interesting interview.

If you like sensor technology, Imaging Resource has a nice piece also of the process how Nikon designs their sensors using Sony foundries (well, or whatever other foundry they use in the past or future) https://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2018/07/17/pixels-for-geeks-a-peek-inside-nikons-super-secret-sensor-design-lab




http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 20199
Post by: shadowblade on August 08, 2018, 03:24:28 pm
No:
- I am mentioning 2 cameras
- I am not speaking about price

Cheers,
Bernard

You seemed to be talking about one camera that did everything, covering the A7III, A7r3 and A9.

If it's two cameras, it will happen, but not in the first generation of Nikons - more likely in the next generation of Sonys (A7r4 or A9r).

Matching the A7III is easy enough, although building up a market share from scratch against an established lineup of E-mount lenses may be a bit harder (probably easier for an entry-level body, whose users will often only get two or three lenses at most anyway - as long as you have the bases covered, you're fine).

But there is no way they will match both the A9 and A7r3 in the same camera this year. It's one or the other. The A9 uses a stacked sensor to achieve its AF performance. The A7r3 sensor lacks that, but has close to twice the resolution and higher dynamic range. Same with the D850 sensor (which doesn't even have on-sensor AF). Basing it on the D5 sensor wouldn't help either - not only does it lack the resolution to compete with the A7r3, but it also lacks on-sensor AF, the D5's AF performance being derived from off-sensor components rather than the sensor itself. So, they'd need an entirely new sensor that not only matches the D850 in resolution, but also somehow has an on-sensor AF system that matches the A9 or D5, with the off-sensor data bandwidth and processing power to support 20fps at 45MP. If Nikon could do that, they'd have done it two years ago. More likely, it's something for the A7r4 or A9r (with the next-generation A9 improving the AF further and likely moving to something like 6k or 8k video output, as the 'action' body in the lineup).
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 20199
Post by: shadowblade on August 08, 2018, 03:51:07 pm
So, my bet, Nikon will say that both their cameras have the best AF system in their class (Sony always says that in their marketing material... ), fanboys will claim that it is the truth... Anyway, in terms of market, and according to rumors, Nikon will release two cameras:

- A 24 megapixel camera, focusing in prize, that will take the place of their D6XX and D7XX line. This will be a camera with better AF system of the two (Sony A7 III has better AF that the Sony A7r III, in fact, it has the same AF system as the A9, just slower chip reading the image from the sensor, making it imposible to reach 20 fps and that good nearly no-rolling-shutter electronic shutter). This will be the high selling camera for Nikon.

- A 45 megapixel camera (or around that amount... but I suspect Nikon will use the same 45 megapixel sensor of D850 with AF system over it to save costs, they already paid for the design and manufacturing fine tunning of it, now it is just ordering a new batch of them), focusing on image quality and resolution, to attract the possible buyers of a Sony a7r III or D850.

I'm not expecting a Nikon megacamera that beats everything... that it is just wishful thinking. Those two will cover nicely the market of people thinking to switch to a Nikon mirrorless system.

That's pretty much my thinking.

I'd also expect the 24MP camera to have better AF than the 45MP camera, since the sensor design is likely to be new and designed from the ground up with on-sensor PDAF in mind (possibly even the same basic sensor as the A7III, with modified filters/microlenses to Nikon's specifications), while the 45MP version will probably use a modified version of the D850 sensor, with more limited capacity to support PDAF (unlike the A7r2/A7r3 sensor, it was not designed specifically for mirrorless use, since the D850 didn't need it). The 45MP version will cost more than the 24MP version, regardless of AF performance, but will probably undercut the A7r3, since it won't be able to compete on lens selection and is unlikely to compete on AF. It will be like Sony's initial launch of the A7 and A7r in 2013, with a cheaper, lower-resolution, higher-performance body, and a high-resolution version that doesn't perform nearly as well but is optimised for studio/landscape use.

Quote
Sony will probably do nothing. They released end of last year the a7r III and this year the A7 III. Those cameras will still be on the market for another year before being replaced. By the end of the year we will probably see the A7s III, more focused on video and low sensitivity (the A7 III has a sensor that has a high-ISO noise similar to the A7s II right now..., Sony has to best themselves there). Of course, this camera will need to best the Panasonic GH5/GH5s in terms of video features... that it is their competitor in the SLR video market. Maybe we see the infamous a6700...

They're not going to replace the A9 or A7r3. But they may release an A9r in the first half of next year, combining technologies from the A9 and A7r3 and trumping the Nikon/Canon releases with a 60+MP, A9-level AF, 10fps flagship model. If they do, that sensor will probably find its way into the A7r4 a year or so later - Sony's never been afraid to cannibalise its own lineup.

They'll also release an A7s3, but that's already expected.

Quote
Next year we maybe see an A9 II... or maybe beginning 2020. Sony will want to have more people in Tokyo Olympics in 2020. And of course, continuing making new lenses.

I would expect 2020. They would want to launch it in an Olympics year, so as to have a new product to sell rather than a one-year-old product, and there isn't enough time for two generations of the A9 between now and July 2020. Also, they'll want 8k video for it (being the Tokyo Olympics) - a 2020 launch allows more time for camera bandwidth, card storage and batteries to catch up (sensors are already there), as well as users' computers to be upgraded to the point where they can actually process 8k video instead of sparking a torrent of complaints along the lines of 'the files are too big for my computer/my computer's too slow', as would likely happen if they released an 8k video camera now.

In the meantime, they'll likely bring out a few more long lenses (500/4, 600/4 and possibly an equivalent to the 180-400/4 or 200-400/4) to allow the new camera to be used to its full capacity when it comes out.

Quote
I highly doubt Sony Imaging Products and Solutions has inside information from the Sony Semiconductors company.

At the board level, they would.

Even if the company itself (outside of the board) does not, they don't need it.

Sony cameras get their sensors from Sony Semiconductors. Sony Semiconductors is constantly developing and testing new prototypes, keeping a 'catalogue' of prototypes that Sony camera (and others) can select from when designing a camera. And these prototypes will incorporate technologies from every source, whether developed by Sony or taken from a Nikon sensor developed in conjunction in Sony - Sony camera doesn't need to know where each individual technology came from, only that Sony Semiconductor is offering them a prototype that uses it.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 08, 2018, 03:54:18 pm
The main logical argument I read here is “Nikon machting Sony in resolution and AF in their first try would make me feel insecure as a Sony customer”. ;)

I have already written 20 comments ago that I thought that matching the D5 would be challenging, but rather credible leaks mention that they may.

For what it’s worth, the Nikon 1 series AF is 7-8 years old tech and was already in DSLR class from a speed standpoint. It seems reasonable to expect Nikon to do better 7 years later in a body costing 7 times more, right?

It seems pretty obvious that the AF is a key area and that Nikon will deliver a very solid performer since they have both had the technology for years and a clear history of delivering the best DSLR AF performance.

Regarding your theory that the high res sensor may have worst AF, we will see. In the DSLR world Nikon has always equipped their high res body with the same AF sensor tech as their sport body. The main reason why the D800/D4 or D850/D5 don’t perform exactly the same is related to different mirror boxes. There is a lot less valid justification in the mirrorless world.

The only one I can think of is the speed of data sampling as it id read off the sensor. But this would be an indirect consequence of resolution, not a direct one. And it would assume that the AF info is read with the same mechanism as the imaging information, which may or may not be the cass. It seems to be a technological implementation story rather than a fundamental limitation. Your guess is as good as mine in terms of Nikon relying on off the shelf sensor AF Sony technology vs developping their own.

In any case, I just don’t buy your explanation about the high res body being based on an existing D850 sensor. Or, more accurately, on a sensor that wasn’t designed with mirrorless in mind.

But we will know in 2 weeks.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 20199
Post by: D Fuller on August 08, 2018, 04:30:08 pm
...
But there is no way they will match both the A9 and A7r3 in the same camera this year. It's one or the other.
...

Basing it on the D5 sensor wouldn't help either - not only does it lack the resolution to compete with the A7r3, but it also lacks on-sensor AF, the D5's AF performance being derived from off-sensor components rather than the sensor itself. 


Well, this is all true, but the A9 is no match for the A7R3 in resolution either. It seems obvious from all the real-world cameras that there is a trade-off between autofocus and frame rate on one hand and resolution and DR on the other. The reason for the frame rate trade off would be all about data rates—you just have to move a lot more data at 45 Mpix than at 24. It’ll get worse if DR reaches the point where 16 bits are required to represent it.

Focus speed is more of a mystery to me, but all of the best autofocus cameras are twenty-something megapixels. Can that be coincidence? Even Leica, who doesn’t seem to care at all about how much they have to charge for a camera, made the SL 24 Mpix, so I suspect it’s not down to money.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 20199
Post by: shadowblade on August 08, 2018, 05:05:03 pm
Well, this is all true, but the A9 is no match for the A7R3 in resolution either. It seems obvious from all the real-world cameras that there is a trade-off between autofocus and frame rate on one hand and resolution and DR on the other. The reason for the frame rate trade off would be all about data rates—you just have to move a lot more data at 45 Mpix than at 24. It’ll get worse if DR reaches the point where 16 bits are required to represent it.

I never said that the A9 was a match - if it were, I'd be shooting an A9 rather than an A7r3. I was merely responding to the assertion that Nikon's new camera will compete with both the A7r3 and A9. That would require a completely unprecedented leap in capability - more likely as an evolution of the A7r3 (as the A7r4 or A9r) than from a company which has never made a full-frame mirrorless camera before.

Quote
Focus speed is more of a mystery to me, but all of the best autofocus cameras are twenty-something megapixels. Can that be coincidence? Even Leica, who doesn’t seem to care at all about how much they have to charge for a camera, made the SL 24 Mpix, so I suspect it’s not down to money.

It's down to bandwidth and frame rate.

In SLRs, there's no connection between the sensor and the AF system. You can put the same sensor in two different cameras with two completely different AF systems, or vice versa. The 1Ds3 had the same AF system as the 1D3, while the D3x had the same AF system as the D3. You could easily put a D850 sensor into a D5 and get the same AF performance.

But people who need the fastest possible AF often need frame rate more than resolution. And that applies just as much to SLRs as mirrorless cameras. The 1Ds3 could only manage 5fps. The D3x only managed around 2-3fps. Even with top-tier AF systems, if you can only manage slow frame rates, you don't have much of an action camera. And, for a non-action camera, the AF system is largely wasted. It's only in the latest generation of bodies - A7r3 and D850 - that resolution and speed been combined to achieve both high resolution and acceptable frame rates for fast action.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: shadowblade on August 08, 2018, 05:28:27 pm
The main logical argument I read here is “Nikon machting Sony in resolution and AF in their first try would make me feel insecure as a Sony customer”. ;)

I change systems every few years anyway, due to fairly high attrition from broken gear (I have a 1Ds3 with a bullet lodged in it, and I'm pretty sure a crocodile has my 5D2 with attached lens), thefts and obsolescence. But the next one will almost certainly be either Canon or Sony - whoever has the most promising lineup when I next have a large chunk of gear destroyed - not the comparative minnow which now has to move into a completely new field of camera technology, without the benefit of being an incumbent with large pre-existing market share. Sony made their move five years ago; Canon has far greater resources.

Quote
I have already written 20 comments ago that I thought that matching the D5 would be challenging, but rather credible leaks mention that they may.

Where are these leaks, and why are they credible? The only thing I've seen on Nikonrumors reads like some fanboy's wishlist.

Quote
For what it’s worth, the Nikon 1 series AF is 7-8 years old tech and was already in DSLR class from a speed standpoint. It seems reasonable to expect Nikon to do better 7 years later in a body costing 7 times more, right?

Only when moving small pieces of glass, tracking slow-moving, simple subjects, with lenses that don't even need to focus all that accurately, since DOF is so large. Quite different to focusing a 200/2.8 lens on a running subject and achieving accurate focus on the nearest eye.

Olympus E-PEEN series M43 cameras can do the same thing. You'd never put them in the same class.

[QuoteIt seems pretty obvious that the AF is a key area and that Nikon will deliver a very solid performer since they have both had the technology for years and a clear history of delivering the best DSLR AF performance.[/quote]

Which does not translate at all to being able to build a class-leading sensor-based hybrid PDAF/CDAF system. They've never even made an on-sensor PDAF system.

Quote
In any case, I just don’t buy your explanation about the high res body being based on an existing D850 sensor.

But we will know in 2 weeks.

Cheers,
Bernard

Then what are they going to base it on? And how many different sensors is Nikon going to support at the same time? How many can they afford to develop at the same time? The D850 only just came out.

The A7r3 sensor was amortised over two generations and three cameras (A7r2, A99II, A7r3). The previous 36MP sensor went into a lot of different cameras from multiple manufacturers, with only small differencea between them. And Sony is a huge company with the world's leading market share in sensors. The D850 sensor has gone into exactly one camera, and Nikon is a comparative minnow. If they developed that many sensors, they'd never get their money back.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 08, 2018, 05:48:11 pm
How can you know before product announcement that you will not be using Nikon equipment moving forward?

How has Canon’s greater resources helped them deliver best in class DSLRs to their customers these past 8 years?

When do you think Nikon froze their mirrorless design and how could that have related to the D850 development?

When you write "They've never even made an on-sensor PDAF system.", are you aware that the Nikon 1 series was the first camera ever released with an on-sensor PDAF system? Besides, as was just pointed out to me by Jack, they have owned patents on this for 6 years... https://nikonrumors.com/2017/08/03/new-nikon-multi-pixel-pdaf-sensor-patent.aspx/
...

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 09, 2018, 12:58:13 am
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/09/third-nikon-mirrorless-camera-teaser-released.aspx/#more-124463

Nikon is saying "we have invested all our knowledge in this camera". Looks like a high end release.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on August 09, 2018, 03:33:02 am
Nikon is saying "we have invested all our knowledge in this camera". Looks like a high end release.

To me that looks like "Everything will be fine" from your mom right when you get into surgery, words expected to be heard but zero real information. No camera brand would admit they put partial knowledge on a new development :D
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 09, 2018, 03:52:18 am
To me that looks like "Everything will be fine" from your mom right when you get into surgery, words expected to be heard but zero real information. No camera brand would admit they put partial knowledge on a new development :D

Well... never under-estimate Nikon's ability to mess up marketing.  ;D

Don't forget that they released the D3x and didn't say a word about its dynamic range... https://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/dslr/d3x/pdf/d3x_24p.pdf

They are just telling us that it is one of their most strategic camera ever. And coming from them, it tells me something because... as far as I recall, they have always made a big splash when they wanted to/had to. The D1 was the first native DSLR at a moment when Canon was leading in the film world thanks to USM, the D3 broke new grounds in high ISO and AF when Canon was leading in FF bodies, the D3x was the first high DR camera, the D800 broke new grounds in resolution,... there is little historical reason to think that they would mess up what themselves describe as one of their most strategic camera release ever.

All of their recent DSLR lenses have been outstanding in terms of look and technical qualities too. Their new mount should have provided them with all the design freedom they needed as well.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: shadowblade on August 09, 2018, 05:06:49 am
How can you know before product announcement that you will not be using Nikon equipment moving forward?

Probability. Mirrorless is a new field - all camera companies needed to produce new mounts, new lenses, new AF systems and new ways of doing things. Existing SLR market share has limited value. Canon and Sony are huge companies, with major sources of income outside photography to keep them running during any bumpy transition period. Nikon is almost entirely reliant on still cameras. Sony got a five-year head start. Canon is a much bigger company than Nikon, and has a mature and effective dual pixel AF system (with the potential to become the best AF system out there, even better than Sony's current system, although Sony has recently patented a similar technology). So, with Sony starting out ahead, and Canon and Nikon starting from around the same point, but Canon running with far greater horsepower, odds are that Canon will end up with the more capable lineup and greater third-party support. Nikon will have to pick its battles carefully, spending resources to fill underserved market segments, rather than simply throwing resources into a broad, omnidirectional push into mirrorless like Canon can.

It's not for nothing that, even ten years ago - before Sony had even made a full-frame SLR - Canon named Sony as its greatest long-term rival in the camera field, not Nikon. That prediction is just starting to bear out now.

Odds are that, in five years' time, it will be one of the big two - Canon or Sony - at the top, and not the much smaller Nikon. It's simply down to size.

Quote
How has Canon’s greater resources helped them deliver best in class DSLRs to their customers these past 8 years?

They haven't. It's also obvious that their efforts weren't oriented in that direction. Canon have been coasting in the SLR world since the 5D3, if not the 5D2, relying on incumbency, existing market share and brand name to keep the cash flowing while they focused their efforts elsewhere.

What has Canon been working on in the past eight years? Video. Dual pixel AF and other video AF technologies. EVFs. Data processing for video and live view. Video-oriented lens technology. Fast sensor readouts, to support video frame rates.

And, guess what? All these technologies are equally applicable to mirrorless cameras, and will help Canon move forward in that era.

Meanwhile, Nikon has been busy breeding a better horse and more efficient carriage, while Sony's car has gone from walking pace, to running, to now matching the horse, with much more potential for future development, and Canon's been developing their alternate car engine and associated technologies, in readiness to move into that market when the car finally outpaces the horse. Much of Nikon's horse-breeding and carriage development, eking every last bit of performance out of it before it becomes obsolete, won't be applicable when they eventually move to cars, while most of Canon's work will - while Sony decided to abandon the horse at the first whiff of petrol, moving into that emerging market and building up market share and technology before anyone else realised the horse was approaching its use-by date.

It is telling that Canon's new 70-200/2.8 is a bare-minimum rehash of their existing lens, and that Canon didn't even bother teying to disguise that fact. It's just a way to keep SLR users happy and, perhaps, to simplify their manufacturing processes. Their real work is going into the mirrorless 70-200/2.8, with mechanics and electronics optimised for mirrorless focusing. They know they need it for a successful full-frame mirrorless launch, and will have it ready.

Quote
When do you think Nikon froze their mirrorless design and how could that have related to the D850 development?

They haven't frozen it. They just haven't proceeded as fast as the other two major players. Sony's bern making full-frame mirrorless cameras for five years. Canon's been using mirrorless-related technologies in their cameras and (especially) video cameras for just as long, with each iteration improving on the last - to make a full-frame mirrorless camera essentially involves repackaging the same technologies into a different body. In fact, the 6D2 can essentially be run as a full-frame mirrorless camera, retaining effective AF in live view mode, quite unlike the Nikon bodies (and Canon non-dual pixel bodies). Meanwhile, Nikon had not demonstrated most of the required technologies at all, and it took them until quite recently to even demonstrate a half-decent live view display.

Quote
When you write "They've never even made an on-sensor PDAF system.", are you aware that the Nikon 1 series was the first camera ever released with an on-sensor PDAF system? Besides, as was just pointed out to me by Jack, they have owned patents on this for 6 years... https://nikonrumors.com/2017/08/03/new-nikon-multi-pixel-pdaf-sensor-patent.aspx/

I meant full-frame. Sony's been doing it since the A7. Canon did it with the 6D2. Nikon has yet to do it.

True pixel-based PDAF systems, like Canon's dual pixel, are likely to be the future. Sony recently got a patent for something similar, but this is one area where Canon has the lead over Sony. Make it quad pixel and every pixel becomes a cross-type sensor. Sony's separate layer approach (using certain rows of AF pixels) may be better in dark conditions, but this could be surmounted by binning pixels together for the purpose of AF, effectively making bigger and more sensitive AF pixels.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: shadowblade on August 09, 2018, 05:08:39 am
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/09/third-nikon-mirrorless-camera-teaser-released.aspx/#more-124463

Nikon is saying "we have invested all our knowledge in this camera". Looks like a high end release.

Cheers,
Bernard

Looks like high-end marketing speak. Every company says something along these lines, for every release. Canon said it every time they rehashed their tired old 18MP APS-C sensor in a new body.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 09, 2018, 05:30:28 am
Great then, you have nothing to fear, your Sony will remain on top. ;D

I’ll remain fact based when selecting my future mirrorless system. The better photography tool will win, regardless of the brand.

I am the first to applaud the work done by Canon on video AF. But, although their technology is mirrorless based onviously, I don’t think that their algos are so relevant for still. The focusing strategies are pretty different.

But anyway, I don’t really care.

Let the better company win.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: davidgp on August 09, 2018, 06:20:18 am
Great then, you have nothing to fear, your Sony will remain on top. ;D

I’ll remain fact based when selecting my future mirrorless system. The better photography tool will win, regardless of the brand.

I am the first to applaud the work done by Canon on video AF. But, although their technology is mirrorless based onviously, I don’t think that their algos are so relevant for still. The focusing strategies are pretty different.

But anyway, I don’t really care.

Let the better company win.

Cheers,
Bernard

Ok, I read the new comments very quickly so probably missing something... if that it is the case just let me know.

For me, being a Sony user (right now, I was a Canon user several years ago...), I wouldn't mind Nikon releasing an overall better mirrorless system that Sony, that will really force Sony (I'm not expecting Canon to do too much...) to improve... if they can. If Nikon releases a better system would I change to it? No... economically for me it is not possible. So I will buy a Sony 100-400 in the future (closing the lens that I typically use) and maybe in 10 years I see if it compensates to me to change to other system. But looking forward to what Nikon has to offer and how the technology evolves... to satisfy the nerd inside of me :)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 20199
Post by: davidgp on August 09, 2018, 06:27:23 am
It's down to bandwidth and frame rate.

In SLRs, there's no connection between the sensor and the AF system. You can put the same sensor in two different cameras with two completely different AF systems, or vice versa. The 1Ds3 had the same AF system as the 1D3, while the D3x had the same AF system as the D3. You could easily put a D850 sensor into a D5 and get the same AF performance.

But people who need the fastest possible AF often need frame rate more than resolution. And that applies just as much to SLRs as mirrorless cameras. The 1Ds3 could only manage 5fps. The D3x only managed around 2-3fps. Even with top-tier AF systems, if you can only manage slow frame rates, you don't have much of an action camera. And, for a non-action camera, the AF system is largely wasted. It's only in the latest generation of bodies - A7r3 and D850 - that resolution and speed been combined to achieve both high resolution and acceptable frame rates for fast action.

In mirrorless systems there is a connection between the resolution and the AF system. The A9 is able to read the image from the sensor in a rate of 60 images per second, that information is used by the LSI chip in the sensor of the camera to help the tracking algorithms. I'm assuming that this sensor being 24 megapixels "only", they are able to reach that speed... in something like 42 megapixeles they are probably not going to be able to do it (right now). So, less megapixeles, you are able to read faster the image from the sensor and use the whole image to improve the tracking algorithms for things like Eye AF.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 09, 2018, 07:42:26 am
This is apparently indeed the case with Sony’s implementation, but nothing would prevent a different implementation where the AF pixels are read at a higher speed than the imaging ones (a multiple obviously).

In fact I am wondering whether the Sony implementation is really the one you are describing for the PDAD based focusing phase. It may be the case if a final contrast based AF is needed. But this also is technological in nature.

In other words, I believe that a lot can still be invented here.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: chez on August 09, 2018, 09:25:21 am


How has Canon’s greater resources helped them deliver best in class DSLRs to their customers these past 8 years?




...

Cheers,
Bernard

Canon took a different approach these last few years by making bucket loads of money, not having to restructure, not having to take huge write downs, not having to close down plants.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: chez on August 09, 2018, 09:30:36 am


But anyway, I don’t really care.

Let the better company win.

Cheers,
Bernard

Oh but you do Bernard. Your talk about Nikon being the greatest says so.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 09, 2018, 09:45:12 am
Canon took a different approach these last few years by making bucket loads of money, not having to restructure, not having to take huge write downs, not having to close down plants.

Yes, they did. How did it help the photographers who had trusted them is the question I am interested in as a photographer.

When I put my invester hat on I’ll think about them... but will probably reach the same conclusion...

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 09, 2018, 09:47:12 am
Oh but you do Bernard. Your talk about Nikon being the greatest says so.

What have I written about Nikon that isn’t factual?

I’ll be more than happy to stand corrected... because I really don’t care.

There are many things I care about, don’t get me wrong. I care a lot about the sharpness of my images, never post an image that is not tack sharp at 100% on screen even if nobody would notice at typical web sizes, I care about sorting out my trash, I care about the way my daughter treats people, I care about world politics, the selfish decisions of Trump and how they must inspire millions of kids to act stupidely themselves,... the list is pretty much endless... but whether Nikon manages to top Sony with their first mirrorless body is something I find intriguing, but I don’t care who wins even if I think Nikon probably will.

I don’t know how old you are nor what kind of experiences you have been through in life, but there comes a time when you just deal with who you are. You just say things the way you feel them. I have mostly reached this stage. If I cared I would just say it.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: ErikKaffehr on August 09, 2018, 11:19:45 am
The future, it is difficult to predict...

Best regards
Erik

What have I written about Nikon that isn’t factual?

I’ll be more than happy to stand corrected... because I really don’t care.

There are many things I care about, don’t get me wrong. I care a lot about the sharpness of my images, never post an image that is not tack sharp at 100% on screen even if nobody would notice at typical web sizes, I care about sorting out my trash, I care about the way my daughter treats people, I care about world politics, the selfish decisions of Trump and how they must inspire millions of kids to act stupidely themselves,... the list is pretty much endless... but whether Nikon manages to top Sony with their first mirrorless body is something I find intriguing, but I don’t care who wins even if I think Nikon probably will.

I don’t know how old you are nor what kind of experiences you have been through in life, but there comes a time when you just deal with who you are. You just say things the way you feel them. I have mostly reached this stage. If I cared I would just say it.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Rob C on August 09, 2018, 12:09:46 pm
What have I written about Nikon that isn’t factual?

I’ll be more than happy to stand corrected... because I really don’t care.

There are many things I care about, don’t get me wrong. I care a lot about the sharpness of my images, never post an image that is not tack sharp at 100% on screen even if nobody would notice at typical web sizes, I care about sorting out my trash, I care about the way my daughter treats people, I care about world politics, the selfish decisions of Trump and how they must inspire millions of kids to act stupidely themselves,... the list is pretty much endless... but whether Nikon manages to top Sony with their first mirrorless body is something I find intriguing, but I don’t care who wins even if I think Nikon probably will.

I don’t know how old you are nor what kind of experiences you have been through in life, but there comes a time when you just deal with who you are. You just say things the way you feel them. I have mostly reached this stage. If I cared I would just say it.

Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard, that last paragraph: perfectly put, and where, if we are lucky, we eventually reach.

But beware: with it comes the award of curmudgeon and the accompanying smile that says yep, that's okay too!
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: chez on August 09, 2018, 12:55:18 pm
Too bad you boys had to wait until you are on in age to deal with just who you are. Did you wear a masquerade when younger?

I'm on in age as well and it hasn't changed my approach to life and my outlook of myself. I never cared what other people thought of me and still do not...everyone is entitled to their opinion...even the ones that are wrong. ;D
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 09, 2018, 03:17:07 pm
Bernard, that last paragraph: perfectly put, and where, if we are lucky, we eventually reach.

But beware: with it comes the award of curmudgeon and the accompanying smile that says yep, that's okay too!

Yep! :)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: davidgp on August 10, 2018, 08:18:04 am
This is apparently indeed the case with Sony’s implementation, but nothing would prevent a different implementation where the AF pixels are read at a higher speed than the imaging ones (a multiple obviously).

In fact I am wondering whether the Sony implementation is really the one you are describing for the PDAD based focusing phase. It may be the case if a final contrast based AF is needed. But this also is technological in nature.

In other words, I believe that a lot can still be invented here.

Cheers,
Bernard

Hi Benard,

What you said it could be very true... my speculation why Sony maybe does it this way, and this goes very very far away of what I could know about CMOS sensor technology and AF technology, so, take it with a very big grain of salt:

- For things like Eye AF or Face detection my speculation is that they are using information from more than the PDAF pixels. PDAF pixels give information about where to move the lens, rest of pixels information about what the camera is seeing.

- Not sure if the Sony tracking algorithms use this. But since they can read the whole image (or a big number of pixels), for what you can understand from Sony presentations, it will be interesting for Sony engineers to use all the info improve their algorithms.

I suspect that the ability or read quick an image in Sony sensor does not come from the need of better AF reading (it is a benefit to it...), I think their major objective was to reduce EVF lag and eliminate blackout (one of the major criticism for action photography that they had before the A9). Also, for video and action photography, this minimizes the effect of rolling shutter (curiously enough... Sony with the A9 did a Canon like move... not allowing to have Picture Profiles for video on it).

Now other thing, again, big grain of salt here, reading only the PDAF pixels will probably require specific control lines for those pixels in sensor design, this can complicate the design of the metal connections of the sensor chip. Although... after writing this, and thinking of the stacked sensor design of the A9 and A7 III chip, since the image is very quickly copied to a DRAM chip, access to the PDAF pixels only will be just addressing those memory address that it should be very quick...

As I said in this thread or in other one talking about mirrorless... I have a very big nerdy side :D

Regards,

David
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on August 10, 2018, 09:43:58 am
Face recognition is always done over the entire sensor (or at least over a big subset of pixels), to run Neural Network algorithms. Even cheap mobiles do it that way.

Regards
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 10, 2018, 09:52:47 am
Face recognition is always done over the entire sensor (or at least over a big subset of pixels), to run Neural Network algorithms. Even cheap mobiles do it that way.

Regards

Most certainly yes, but this isn’t incompatible with having dedicated faster read out of the AF pixels.

The position of the eye in the image doesn’t change much in 1/30th of a second (assuming it is the time needed for a full read out).

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Peter_DL on August 10, 2018, 05:23:59 pm

LOL (https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/10/nikon-mirrorless-camera-memes-only-for-people-with-a-sense-of-humor.aspx/)
Nikon mirrorless camera memes (only for people with a sense of humor)

Peter
--
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 13, 2018, 12:44:50 am
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/12/this-is-how-the-back-of-the-nikon-mirrorless-camera-looks.aspx/#more-124550

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Rob C on August 13, 2018, 08:45:04 am
I have to admit, I have never seen fanboy syndrome so well illustrated anywhere else.

Congratulations, LuLa and Nikon or, in the interests of fair play: Nikon and LuLa.

Rob
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 13, 2018, 09:09:25 am
I have to admit, I have never seen fanboy syndrome so well illustrated anywhere else.

Congratulations, LuLa and Nikon or, in the interests of fair play: Nikon and LuLa.

I have just realized, with the amount of amazement you can guess, that... we have never defined clearly what a fanboy is...  ;D

So... I'll start: to me a fanboy is an individual whose love for a brand makes forget all notion of objectivity. The fanboy isn't as much defined by the way he speaks about his brand of choice, as it is by the derogative way he speaks about other equipments, over emphasizing their issues and minimizing their qualities. A major manifestation of this being trolling in un-releted forum posts. For instance, bringing in insistently Sony topics in a Nikon thread,...

Can we agree on this totally objective definition?  8)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Chairman Bill on August 13, 2018, 11:53:12 am
I have just realized, with the amount of amazement you can guess, that... we have never defined clearly what a fanboy is...  ;D

So... I'll start: to me a fanboy is an individual whose love for a brand makes forget all notion of objectivity. The fanboy isn't as much defined by the way he speaks about his brand of choice, as it is by the derogative way he speaks about other equipments, over emphasizing their issues and minimizing their qualities. A major manifestation of this being trolling in un-releted forum posts. For instance, bringing in insistently Sony topics in a Nikon thread,...

Can we agree on this totally objective definition?  8)

Cheers,
Bernard

Sounds about right
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Rob C on August 13, 2018, 12:07:18 pm
I have just realized, with the amount of amazement you can guess, that... we have never defined clearly what a fanboy is...  ;D

So... I'll start: to me a fanboy is an individual whose love for a brand makes forget all notion of objectivity. The fanboy isn't as much defined by the way he speaks about his brand of choice, as it is by the derogative way he speaks about other equipments, over emphasizing their issues and minimizing their qualities. A major manifestation of this being trolling in un-releted forum posts. For instance, bringing in insistently Sony topics in a Nikon thread,...

Can we agree on this totally objective definition?  8)

Cheers,
Bernard


I don't see why not.

;-)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on August 13, 2018, 01:21:35 pm
I have just realized, with the amount of amazement you can guess, that... we have never defined clearly what a fanboy is...  ;D

So... I'll start: to me a fanboy is an individual whose love for a brand makes forget all notion of objectivity. The fanboy isn't as much defined by the way he speaks about his brand of choice, as it is by the derogative way he speaks about other equipments, over emphasizing their issues and minimizing their qualities. A major manifestation of this being trolling in un-releted forum posts. For instance, bringing in insistently Sony topics in a Nikon thread,...

Can we agree on this totally objective definition?  8)

Cheers,
Bernard

Not sure IMO. For me the necessary and sufficient condition for being a fanboy is more general than objectiveness related, being the lack of objectiveness just a symptom of fanboyism, not the definition itself.

A fanboy is a user who will always want/desire/prefer/need (I still don't have the right word clear here) his favourite, and usually owned, camera brand to prevail over the rest, no matter if that means being objective or illusional, no matter if that objectively (economically, in terms of performance,...) benefits him or not. It's about having some kind of irrational empathic feeling for the corporation which manufactures his stuff.

In this way a fanboy is very close to a massive sport supporter (football, basketball,... team sports in general), some particular car brand lover (I declare myself an Alfa Romeo nearly fanboy for instance), or even those people with deep patriotic roots, which is probably one of the least rational forms of fanboyism since most patriots were just born in their home country by coincidence; only voluntarily chosen immigrant patriots make really sense.

Regards
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: mecrox on August 13, 2018, 03:27:19 pm

I don't see why not.

;-)

A thing I’ve noticed with fanboys is that they get very upset if asked to think for themselves. I suspect the basic deal is that they don’t want to have to take responsibility for their own life and have handed it over to an authority figure in exchange for loyalty. So long as they remain loyal the authority figure will run their life for them. Hence the barmy overcompensating brand loyalty. Thus the most terrifying thing for the fanboy is having to stand alone, start over and ... change brands.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 13, 2018, 05:34:56 pm
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/13/breaking-nikon-z6-and-z7-full-frame-mirrorless-cameras-and-three-lenses-coming-on-august-23rd-z-noct-nikkor-58mm-f-0-95-lens-to-be-announced-later.aspx/#more-124577

Chees,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 13, 2018, 05:54:19 pm
Not sure IMO. For me the necessary and sufficient condition for being a fanboy is more general than objectiveness related, being the lack of objectiveness just a symptom of fanboyism, not the definition itself.

A fanboy is a user who will always want/desire/prefer/need (I still don't have the right word clear here) his favourite, and usually owned, camera brand to prevail over the rest, no matter if that means being objective or illusional, no matter if that objectively (economically, in terms of performance,...) benefits him or not. It's about having some kind of irrational empathic feeling for the corporation which manufactures his stuff.

In this way a fanboy is very close to a massive sport supporter (football, basketball,... team sports in general), some particular car brand lover (I declare myself an Alfa Romeo nearly fanboy for instance), or even those people with deep patriotic roots, which is probably one of the least rational forms of fanboyism since most patriots were just born in their home country by coincidence; only voluntarily chosen immigrant patriots make really sense.

Is fanboyism an intrinsic preliminary condition irrelevant of (potentially still unconfirmed) reality?

For instance, am I/will I still be a Nikon fanboy if the Z6 ends up having the best (mirrorless) AF on the market? Do I become a skilled forecaster? Or is the fact that I mention the possibility - based on credible rumors and past track record - of a bright future for Nikon an unmistakable proof that I am a fanboy?

Would I be more of a fanboy if I trashed talked Sony (which I have never ever done - I love Sony and many of their products including their a7/a9 cameras even if I don’t find them perfect)?

In other words, I am fully comfortable with being called a Nikon fan, but I would rather leave the boy part to those whose forecasts have been clouded by their own lack of objectivity (not talking about you).  ;D

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Alex Waugh on August 13, 2018, 06:12:17 pm
To save a click - copied from nikonrumors.

Nikon Z6: high speed, low light model (24MP)
Nikon Z7: high-resolution model (45MP)
The new Nikon mirrorless lenses could be called Z-Nikkor.
There will be a Nikon Z-Noct-Nikkor 58mm f/0.95 lens! Fourth Z-mount lens and it will be announced after August 23rd.
Lenses should be 24-70mm f/4, 50mm f/1.8 and one more wide angle lens (24mm f/1.8 or 28mm f/1.8 or 35mm f/1.8).

Assuming I decide to bite after Photokina, I'd probably pickup the high res body + the fast wide with the 58mm to follow when funds allow.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 13, 2018, 07:47:15 pm
Assuming I decide to bite after Photokina, I'd probably pickup the high res body + the fast wide with the 58mm to follow when funds allow.

I will personally probably wait for a thorough AF comparisons relative to Sony. AF will IMHO make or break this camera and is by far the single most important aspect (for stills for me).

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Alex Waugh on August 13, 2018, 09:22:23 pm
I will personally probably wait for a thorough AF comparisons relative to Sony. AF will IMHO make or break this camera and is by far the single most important aspect (for stills for me).

Cheers,
Bernard

By "after Photokina" I mean once everything has been released and tested. I should have been more specific.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 13, 2018, 09:54:35 pm
By "after Photokina" I mean once everything has been released and tested. I should have been more specific.

Got it, thanks. :)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on August 13, 2018, 11:54:47 pm
Is fanboyism an intrinsic preliminary condition irrelevant of (potentially still unconfirmed) reality?

For instance, am I/will I still be a Nikon fanboy if the Z6 ends up having the best (mirrorless) AF on the market? Do I become a skilled forecaster? Or is the fact that I mention the possibility - based on credible rumors and past track record - of a bright future for Nikon an unmistakable proof that I am a fanboy?

Would I be more of a fanboy if I trashed talked Sony (which I have never ever done - I love Sony and many of their products including their a7/a9 cameras even if I don’t find them perfect)?

In other words, I am fully comfortable with being called a Nikon fan, but I would rather leave the boy part to those whose forecasts have been clouded by their own lack of objectivity (not talking about you).  ;D

Cheers,
Bernard

The accuracy of your predictions have nothing to do with being or not being a fan boy. Even a stopped clock is correct twice a day.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: shadowblade on August 14, 2018, 12:18:24 am
I will personally probably wait for a thorough AF comparisons relative to Sony. AF will IMHO make or break this camera and is by far the single most important aspect.

Cheers,
Bernard

Agree.

The other issue is the lack of f/2.8 zooms at launch. These are the bread and butter for many categories of photographers. No matter how good the AF is, if the right lenses aren't available, people won't buy it. A 58/0.95 is no substitute - this is a lens of limited appeal, useful for artsy creative types doing street photography (although how much more useful than a f/1.4 lens of the same focal length is questionable) but absolutely useless for the vast majority of work.

No-one is going to buy existing F-mount lenses to use them on an adapter, in full knowledge that Z-mount equivalents are likely to come out in a few years time and that their lenses are likely to lose a lot of their value as Z-mount takes over and SLRs start to disappear. Those who don't already own them won't go out and buy them, but will either stay on the sidelines or go and buy the Sony system instead, where mirrorless f/2.8 zooms are already available.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 14, 2018, 01:01:20 am
The other issue is the lack of f/2.8 zooms at launch. These are the bread and butter for many categories of photographers. No matter how good the AF is, if the right lenses aren't available, people won't buy it. A 58/0.95 is no substitute - this is a lens of limited appeal, useful for artsy creative types doing street photography (although how much more useful than a f/1.4 lens of the same focal length is questionable) but absolutely useless for the vast majority of work.

No-one is going to buy existing F-mount lenses to use them on an adapter, in full knowledge that Z-mount equivalents are likely to come out in a few years time and that their lenses are likely to lose a lot of their value as Z-mount takes over and SLRs start to disappear. Those who don't already own them won't go out and buy them, but will either stay on the sidelines or go and buy the Sony system instead, where mirrorless f/2.8 zooms are already available.

Yes... I am wondering how Sony was able to sell a7/a7r as well as a7ii/a7rii bodies during the first 2.4 years of the system's existence before their added the 24-70 f2.8  and 70-200 f2.8 zooms... ;)

Could it be that you were among those that bought one of these during that period?  ;D

For the 24-70 f2.8, adapting the existing lens is certainly a valid option for existing Nikon pro users, looking into replacing their DSLR by a Z6/Z7, but my guess is that many will add first the z cameras to their existing line up to benefit from the smaller size. For these a 24-70 f4 is a reasonable solution. Besides, Nikon has been producing 24-70 f2.8 lenses of high quality for more than 10 years, it shouldn't be very hard for them to design one for the Z. It isn't like if a 24-70 f2.8 were an innovative lens in anyway.

My view is that there would be very little value in getting a dedicated 70-200 f2.8 for mirrorless, since the the Nikon is already the best zoom available and the size of the Sony is similar anyway.

If their marketing dpt learned something - but this is a major IF - they will probably release a lens roadmap together with the cameras. Do you think it would be smart for them to do so? Would you like to see such a roadmap as a potential Z camera buyer?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: shadowblade on August 14, 2018, 03:25:09 am
Yes... I am wondering how Sony was able to sell a7/a7r as well as a7ii/a7rii bodies during the first 2.4 years of the system's existence before their added the 24-70 f2.8  and 70-200 f2.8 zooms... ;)

Could it be that you were among those that bought one of these during that period?  ;D

1. Canon had a major weakness in sensors, not having one greater than 22MP and with a DR and pattern noise issue at base ISO. There was an opening for Sony to exploit this - those who care most about resolution and DR also often care the least about AF. This opening no longer exists for Nikon - anyone with a Canon lens collection who wanted a better sensor has already moved to Sony.

2. In 2013, there was no choice. If you wanted a full-frame mirrorless camera, it was Sony or nothing. Sony did not have f/2.8 zooms in a mirrorless format, but neither did anyone else. Today, it would be a choice between a more mature system with fast native zooms and primes, or a fledgling system with very little.

3. When the A7r was launched, Sony could use size as a selling point. Even if fast zooms and the typical pro lenses weren't available, the system had a significant size advantage over SLRs. Not an issue for many users, but a big selling point for a significant subset. Nikon can't use it as a selling point this time - Sony cameras are just as small, using the right lenses, and there are a whole lot more small Sony mirrorless lenses available than Nikon.

Essentially, Sony managed to get a flawed camera system into the marketplace by being first, then having a few years to tinker with it and expand the lens lineup, and due to Canon's weakness. Nikon doesn't have that luxury this time. As Nikon should well know from their DSLR experience, there is a huge benefit to being first. If you're not first, you have to be perfect - and that's the whole system, not just the camera.

Quote
For the 24-70 f2.8, adapting the existing lens is certainly a valid option for existing Nikon pro users, looking into replacing their DSLR by a Z6/Z7, but my guess is that many will add first the z cameras to their existing line up to benefit from the smaller size. For these a 24-70 f4 is a reasonable solution. Besides, Nikon has been producing 24-70 f2.8 lenses of high quality for more than 10 years, it shouldn't be very hard for them to design one for the Z. It isn't like if a 24-70 f2.8 were an innovative lens in anyway.

My view is that there would be very little value in getting a dedicated 70-200 f2.8 for mirrorless, since the the Nikon is already the best zoom available and the size of the Sony is similar anyway.

Doesn't help anyone not already invested in the Nikon system or entice anyone not already a Nikon user. No-one is going to buy an F-mount lens that doesn't fit Z-mount, for the express purpose of using it on an adapter. Not only would that mean buying into a system that's reaching its use-by date, with a lens likely to lose much of its value as F-mount loses support, but it also means giving up a good chunk of the lens' performance.

Even with a perfect adapter, containing an off-sensor PDAF system designed to drive legacy lenses, you'd lose a third of a stop of light and introduce reflections due to the transparent mirror. In reality, tolerances in the adapter and mount would introduce alignment errors that may be outside the capacity of microadjustment to compensate for, and, worse, may be slightly different every time you put on the lens. Without the mirror and off-sensor PDAF, you'd eliminate the light loss and alignment errors, but lose AF speed and accuracy in trying to drive a lens with motors not designed with mirrorless cameras in mind.

Quote
If their marketing dpt learned something - but this is a major IF - they will probably release a lens roadmap together with the cameras. Do you think it would be smart for them to do so? Would you like to see such a roadmap as a potential Z camera buyer?

Cheers,
Bernard

That would be the smartest thing they could possibly do. 'We don't have a 70-200/2.8 now, but we will have one in March 2020' is a lot more sellable than 'We don't have a 70-200/2.8 and Sony do, but you should buy our system anyway because, uh, we're Nikon and we've been making cameras for a hundred years and, uh, I guess that means we're just better...' But they need to stick to it - any delays or cancellations is just going to make people doubt their ability to fulfil their commitments. Also, they need to keep a close eye on what Canon and Sony do - there's no point in committing to bring out a particular lens in five years' time if Canon and Sony have it ready for release tomorrow.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on August 14, 2018, 03:46:57 am
All good points you make Shodowblade.

Regarding the idea of Nikon giving a roadmap reagarding future lenses and other system developements. That would be great. It would also be a change in marketing philosophy from Nikon. At the moment they seem to think secrecy and feeding the rumor mill is the way to go. It might drive the hype but it’s not at all reassuring if you are planning a future in mirrorless cameras. Imagine you jump into Nikon and then no one makes lenses for the system other than Nikon because they so effectively close the lens mount to reverse engineering and then they take forever to roll out the lenses. You will be screwed. At this moment it is all going to be on faith and hope.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 14, 2018, 04:13:22 am
OMG... you are right, the Z system is doomed.  ;D

Nikon employees should just quit and go on a long vacation, secretely shooting with Sony cameras and those great super compact f2.8 zoom lenses offering zero value compared to their DSLR counterparts.

What if...
- The Nikon sensor were close to one stop better noisewise than the Sony one?
- Adapters were released that enabled the remaining Canon users to adapt their lenses on the Z with good performance?
- The Nikon AF mirrorless technology were able to drive natively F mount lenses without loss of performance?
- Nikon did come up with native f2.8 zooms within 6 months?
- ...

There is a long list of possible positive options that would mitigate the lack of f2.8 zooms at launch. I don't understand why you don't give these more weight in your thinking process?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on August 14, 2018, 04:26:24 am
Calm down Bernard. No one is saying it’s doomed. People are just pointing out the pitfalls and thinking about some of the issues. It’s interesting.

It’s also obvious that Sony owners will be commenting here. They are after all the biggest group with experience using mirrorless cameras. As a Sony user I admit to being intrigued by what Nikon will offer. I’m also curious about how they plan on overcoming the challenges inherent to offering a new system.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 14, 2018, 04:54:20 am
Calm down Bernard. No one is saying it’s doomed. People are just pointing out the pitfalls and thinking about some of the issues. It’s interesting.

No worries, I am very amused by all this.  :)

But our friend Shadowblade is pretty much saying it is doomed, or at least it clearly feels like he hopes it is.  ;D

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on August 14, 2018, 04:57:21 am
Well as I said before. I hope Nikon knock it out the park. I will be upgrading my FF Sony I. About a year and the better Nikon do the better my new Sony will be.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: shadowblade on August 14, 2018, 05:06:45 am
OMG... you are right, the Z system is doomed.  ;D

Nikon employees should just quit and go on a long vacation, secretely shooting with Sony cameras and those great super compact f2.8 zoom lenses offering zero value compared to their DSLR counterparts.

When did I say anything about 'super compact' f/2.8 lenses?

Sony has compact lenses if you want them. They also have f/2.8 zooms if you want them. Not both in the same lens.

At launch, Z-mount will have neither. No fast zooms, and only three lenses to choose from, all of whose bases Sony already cover and more. They're pushing into a crowded map, not empty space.

Quote
What if...
- The Nikon sensor were close to one stop better noisewise than the Sony one?

Except that they're not. We have recent sensors to compare - D850 and A7r3 (and the A7r3 is already a last-generation design, being the same as the A7r2 sensor, but with better supporting hardware). What makes you think Nikon has suddenly come up with a next-generation super-sensor that Sony can't match, while somehow still managing to manufacture that same sensor for Nikon?

Quote
- Adapters were released that enabled the remaining Canon users to adapt their lenses on the Z with good performance?

The same adapters already exist for Sony bodies. Most people who intend to switch and bring their lenses across have already switched. The rest are sticking with Canon SLRs and will only switch when they have to (when Canon ditches EF mount and goes mirrorless - provided they even ditch EF mount). The thing is, that doesn't mean they have to switch to Nikon - Canon, Nikon and Sony mirrorless systems would all be valid options, similarly-performing adapters would be available for all, but only Sony currently has a comprehensive list of native lenses.

Quote
- The Nikon AF mirrorless technology were able to drive natively F mount lenses without loss of performance?

You may as well ask for magic - this is an engineering impossibility.

SLR lenses have motors designed for single, large movements, not continuous, small, rapid movements. They can't take advantage of all the focus tools used by mirrorless bodies, which combine PDAF, CDAF and AI-based pattern recognition techniques at the same time. To focus the lenses as if they were on an SLR, you'd need an adapter with its own off-sensor AF system - essentially a pellicle mirror, similar to Sony's A99II. But putting this mirror in the light path costs you about a third of a stop of light and introduces reflections. So, you gain AF performance, but lose optical performance. If you don't have a separate AF system, you're then back to using the camera to drive the lens in a way it wasn't designed for, in which case you can't expect performance any better than Metabones or Sigma adapters connecting Canon/Sigma lenses to current Sony cameras.

In addition, adapters introduce tolerances which aren't there with a native lens. Due to slight movement in the system ('no movement' doesn't exist unless you weld them together), these may be slightly different each time you attach the lens. On-sensor focus systems can negate these, since they focus using the imaging sensor, but off-sensor focus systems require microadjustment, and it's hard to adjust for something when the required value is slightly different every time you attach the lens.

Finally, how much is this super-adapter going to cost? Not only do you have the body of an adapter and basic electronics - expensive enough as they are - but now you've also added a fragile and expensive pellicle mirror, more supporting electronics and an AF system that's, at minimum, the equivalent of the D850 or D500, if not the D5 (there would be little point in using it if it weren't to match the performance of those cameras). Now you've got an adapter which probably costs half as much as a high-end camera - all to attach a bunch of what would then be legacy lenses to the new system and achieve performance inferior to what you could achieve by attaching those same lenses to a D850 or D5 in the first place.

It would probably work out a lot better if Nikon gave away these adapters for free with the new cameras, as Sony did with Metabones adapters for the first few years, but, due to the complexity and cost of these adapters and Nikon's smaller size and near-complete dependence on the still camera market, it would be a much more expensive proposition for them to do so.

Quote
- Nikon did come up with native f2.8 zooms within 6 months?

If these were coming, they'd have announced them. F/2.8 lenses are the bread and butter a large chunk of working photographers - wedding shooters, event shooters, photojournalists, etc. If they were coming any time soon, Nikon would want potential buyers to know about them.

Quote
There is a long list of possible positive options that would mitigate the lack of f2.8 zooms at launch. I don't understand why you don't give these more weight in your thinking process?

Because most of them are either very unlikely or technically impossible.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: shadowblade on August 14, 2018, 05:14:23 am
But our friend Shadowblade is pretty much saying it is doomed, or at least it clearly feels like he hopes it is.  ;D

I'm an investor. Sentimentality doesn't make for a good investment choice.

Sony got a three-lap head start in the mirrorless race. Canon and Nikon are starting the race at around the same time, but Canon has a lot more horsepower, a better-equipped pit crew, experience building cars for races in two other categories, and, even if they lose this one, have cars in other races for backup. Nikon has one car, in one race, with less resources than the other teams.

This isn't Cool Runnings or Dodgeball. I wouldn't be betting on Nikon.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: 32BT on August 14, 2018, 06:09:38 am
I'm an investor. Sentimentality doesn't make for a good investment choice.

Sony got a three-lap head start in the mirrorless race. Canon and Nikon are starting the race at around the same time, but Canon has a lot more horsepower, a better-equipped pit crew, experience building cars for races in two other categories, and, even if they lose this one, have cars in other races for backup. Nikon has one car, in one race, with less resources than the other teams.

This isn't Cool Runnings or Dodgeball. I wouldn't be betting on Nikon.

That's like saying you wouldn't bet on Ferrari because they only do F1, and by the same token people must be bonkers "investing" in Fuji.




Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: shadowblade on August 14, 2018, 06:24:36 am
That's like saying you wouldn't bet on Ferrari because they only do F1, and by the same token people must be bonkers "investing" in Fuji.

No, it's saying that you wouldn't bet on a racing team because one of their competitors got a head start in the race (Sony) and the other (Canon) is three times the size, with a more powerful engine (way bigger R&D budget) and more experience building cars (they've been putting mirrorless-related technologies in their still and video cameras for years). Not to say they can't score a few wins here and there, particularly if they stick to niche areas (like Leica) - just that they won't be able to keep up in the long run, unless one or both of the others does something really stupid.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 14, 2018, 07:17:02 am
No, it's saying that you wouldn't bet on a racing team because one of their competitors got a head start in the race (Sony) and the other (Canon) is three times the size, with a more powerful engine (way bigger R&D budget) and more experience building cars (they've been putting mirrorless-related technologies in their still and video cameras for years). Not to say they can't score a few wins here and there, particularly if they stick to niche areas (like Leica) - just that they won't be able to keep up in the long run, unless one or both of the others does something really stupid.

One question you have never answered... how has Canon's large resources helped them help their photographers these past years? As an investor, do you just based your beliefs on theory or do you also look at facts?

How do you explain the fact that the D850 is clearly superior to the 5DMKIV/5DR, like the D810 was clearly superior to the 5DMKIII?

Or... do you disagree with this assessment?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: shadowblade on August 14, 2018, 08:09:57 am
One question you have never answered... how has Canon's large resources helped them help their photographers these past years? As an investor, do you just based your beliefs on theory or do you also look at facts?

Canon doesn't exist to please photographers. It exists to make money for shareholders. And it's done a far better job of it than Nikon these past ten or so years.

A strong company is in a much better position to put more resources into R&D and develop stronger products in the future, further increasing their strength versus the competition. A weaker company, with fewer resources, may win some battles - even a string of them - but, ultimately, can't out-develop a stronger, better-resourced one, assuming that one party isn't completely incompetent. Corporate and military history attests to this (including the history of incompetent leadership squandering a position of strength to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory - see Kodak for an example).

Canon has released very little high-end photo gear these last few years. But they've developed a lot of technologies that will serve them well in mirrorless cameras to come - dual pixel AF, EVFs, lens motors and focusing systems, diffraction optics, processors, higher-resolution sensors, etc. These have shown up piecemeal in various Canon products - video cameras, mirrorless crop cameras, lenses, even non-photographic products - but, so far, they haven't been all put together into a single product (full-frame mirrorless system), likely because other key technologies weren't ready yet. They've been coasting along on their large market share through the end of the SLR era, while ploughing their resources into developing technologies needed for the next, mirrorless era. And now, with that era beginning, they have a lot of patents, prototypes and more mature technologies (dual pixel AF first and foremost) that will allow them to hit the ground running.

Meanwhile, Nikon's been busy perfecting the ultimate horse and cart, expending their resources developing technologies that let them release better products in the present, but which don't help them much with mirrorless cameras. They needed to do this - without all the advances Nikon made which allowed them to pull ahead quality-wise after Canon started giving up on SLR (probably after the 5D2 or 7D), Nikon, which was already behind at the time, would have fallen way behind already. But now, with SLRs reaching their end, they're having to start from scratch with mirrorless, on even ground with Canon and Sony, and likely lack the resources to do this at the same speed.

Basically, Canon and Sony can afford to make missteps and chase dead ends - they have the resources to do that. Nikon needs to make and execute their plans perfectly. There's just much less of a margin for error on their part.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 14, 2018, 08:16:14 am
Color me un-impressed... but we will see.

I hope you are right. I would love to see an amazing mirrorless camera from Canon, but I haven't been impressed since the 1Ds. And I am looking at this as a potential customers of theirs, a photographer.

If you are right that they would't work for me but their share holders instead, then I am not sure I would invest in their system moving forward.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on August 14, 2018, 08:28:19 am
Would also like to see Canon pull one out the hat. I remember taking delivery of my 1Ds. It was a jaw dropping moment. For me the most important camera I have owned. Prior to that I had owned 3 Kodak digital cameras and a Kodak back so digital was hardly new to me.

I wouldn’t be at all surprised if Canon nailed it again with the mirrorless release.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: shadowblade on August 14, 2018, 08:45:23 am
How do you explain the fact that the D850 is clearly superior to the 5DMKIV/5DR, like the D810 was clearly superior to the 5DMKIII?

Bad examples - D850 was released two years after the 5Ds and a year after the 5D4, while the D810 was released two years after the 5D3. D800 vs 5D3 is a better comparison.

Regardless, the point stands. After the 5D2 and 7D were released, Canon's pretty much been focusing exclusively on video technologies and dual-use technologies. Even the 1Dx2's AF system is materially similar to the 7D's - there's just a lot more of it. They had the lion's share of the market, and were happy to coast along while developing the technologies required to dominate the next era. At that stage - even before Sony had made a full-frame camera - they had identified Sony, not Nikon, as their real rival, and worked towards that end.

The thing is, a mirrorless camera is pretty much a video camera with a higher-resolution sensor and a slower frame rate. With future action cameras, even that distinction becomes blurred - action stills cameras are getting faster and faster, while video cameras are getting higher and higher resolution. At some point, they meet - probably at 8k's 39MP/25fps. And guess what Canon's spent the past ten years developing?

I can't say whether Canon or Sony will come out on top in the mirrorless era - at present, it looks like Sony is in a better position, but only because they have a rapidly-maturing product line while Canon has yet to show its cards, and the current state of its developments. That could change with Canon's first release. But, no matter how good the Z6/Z7 turn out to be, it's unlikely that Nikon will come out on top, unless you define 'top' in a Leica-like, niche, prestige product sense rather than a commercially successful/technologically superior sense. In the long run, they may do better by designing and making glass for the two big players (and for other optical systems - cars, security systems, robots, etc.), in a similar vein to Sigma or Zeiss, than by making cameras themselves. There's big money in optics - Sony knows this, through its sensor business (photographic, non-phone cameras being a tiny, and shrinking, proportion of their imaging business) - but a sensor needs a lens to go with it, and Nikon makes lenses better than most.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: D Fuller on August 14, 2018, 10:18:56 am
Frankly, I would love to see Nikon’s approach to mirrorless be a bit more niche than mass market. Products with very clear point of view in design and usability can be excellent, market-leading products. Apple’s entire history bears this out.

Why does this discussion always seem to sound like everybody’s SLRs are going to expire in 30 days, and the choices available at that moment will be the whole future?

The D850, the D5, the 5Dx et al will serve pros for some time to come. Meanwhile I hope mirrorless doesn’t come a just a one-for-one replacement for what we have now. I hope there are more innovations in how we think about and are able to use cameras. For example:

The most interesting lenses for the A7 series (to me) are the Zeiss Loxias. The combination of manual focus with electronic activation of camera features is new and a lovely way of working.

The Leica SLs 24-90mm zoom is a much more interesting range than the much-copied 24-70. That extra reach is just so useful in so many situations. It’s well worth giving up constant aperture for that.

The company that makes a full-frame camera with very good video autofocus and high-bit 10-bit 4:2:2 recording in a camera this size will make a huge splash in the video world. If that camera does low light well, the ripples will be even bigger. I own Sony cameras because of their video capabilities, and the recording specs are only barely good enough. I’d switch in a heartbeat to a camera with similar specs, but a better codec. So would many others.

For myself, I don’t see replacing DSLR with mirrorless just yet. I see having an using both for the immediate future. Plenty of time for a system to get its feet on the ground if it’s done well.

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: mecrox on August 14, 2018, 11:32:58 am
Bad examples - D850 was released two years after the 5Ds and a year after the 5D4, while the D810 was released two years after the 5D3. D800 vs 5D3 is a better comparison.

Regardless, the point stands. After the 5D2 and 7D were released, Canon's pretty much been focusing exclusively on video technologies and dual-use technologies. Even the 1Dx2's AF system is materially similar to the 7D's - there's just a lot more of it. They had the lion's share of the market, and were happy to coast along while developing the technologies required to dominate the next era. At that stage - even before Sony had made a full-frame camera - they had identified Sony, not Nikon, as their real rival, and worked towards that end.

The thing is, a mirrorless camera is pretty much a video camera with a higher-resolution sensor and a slower frame rate. With future action cameras, even that distinction becomes blurred - action stills cameras are getting faster and faster, while video cameras are getting higher and higher resolution. At some point, they meet - probably at 8k's 39MP/25fps. And guess what Canon's spent the past ten years developing?

I can't say whether Canon or Sony will come out on top in the mirrorless era - at present, it looks like Sony is in a better position, but only because they have a rapidly-maturing product line while Canon has yet to show its cards, and the current state of its developments. That could change with Canon's first release. But, no matter how good the Z6/Z7 turn out to be, it's unlikely that Nikon will come out on top, unless you define 'top' in a Leica-like, niche, prestige product sense rather than a commercially successful/technologically superior sense. In the long run, they may do better by designing and making glass for the two big players (and for other optical systems - cars, security systems, robots, etc.), in a similar vein to Sigma or Zeiss, than by making cameras themselves. There's big money in optics - Sony knows this, through its sensor business (photographic, non-phone cameras being a tiny, and shrinking, proportion of their imaging business) - but a sensor needs a lens to go with it, and Nikon makes lenses better than most.

Why does everything have to be a race with winners and losers? It’s not most people’s experience at all. They buy a camera they like, they use it. Eventually it falls to bits and they buy another camera. That is all. There are going to be three main mirrorless companies. Each will offer their own unique blend of feature and IQ. None is going to be worse than any other. Take your pick. If someone can’t take a really first-rate image with a camera from any of them then the problem is not going to be with the equipment.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on August 14, 2018, 11:55:49 am
Why does everything have to be a race with winners and losers? It’s not most people’s experience at all. They buy a camera they like, they use it. Eventually it falls to bits and they buy another camera. That is all. There are going to be three main mirrorless companies. Each will offer their own unique blend of feature and IQ. None is going to be worse than any other. Take your pick. If someone can’t take a really first-rate image with a camera from any of them then the problem is not going to be with the equipment.

Yep
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BJL on August 14, 2018, 12:21:06 pm
Thank you D. Fuller for a wise, positive and “non-partisan” perspective. Though big, fast lenses are needed sometimes by some photographers, far greater usable ISO speeds have greatly expanded the “use cases” for somewhat more compact kit like good quality f/4 or f/2.8-4 zoom lenses, and they can offer wider zoom ranges to 4x or even 5x. That seems one good market to target with the slightly more compact mirrorless systems.

And the more I look at Nikon’s teasers, the more it looks like a relatively compact body, just high enough to fit the rear screen and lens mount.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Rob C on August 14, 2018, 04:49:24 pm
Why does everything have to be a race with winners and losers? It’s not most people’s experience at all. They buy a camera they like, they use it. Eventually it falls to bits and they buy another camera. That is all. There are going to be three main mirrorless companies. Each will offer their own unique blend of feature and IQ. None is going to be worse than any other. Take your pick. If someone can’t take a really first-rate image with a camera from any of them then the problem is not going to be with the equipment.


But hey, these discussions are seldom about images but almost invariably about "the next best thing in my life." Not the same consideration at all, and I agree with you entirely about making good images with what exists and has already existed for ages. If you can't make what we already have do it, then baby, nothing ever will!

Rob
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: shadowblade on August 14, 2018, 05:17:51 pm
Why does everything have to be a race with winners and losers? It’s not most people’s experience at all. They buy a camera they like, they use it. Eventually it falls to bits and they buy another camera. That is all. There are going to be three main mirrorless companies. Each will offer their own unique blend of feature and IQ. None is going to be worse than any other. Take your pick. If someone can’t take a really first-rate image with a camera from any of them then the problem is not going to be with the equipment.

Because business is a race with winners and losers. Selling cameras is a business. And all three companies are competing for the same market.

It's the same in any sector. Ford doesn't want you to buy Toyota - it wants you to buy Ford. And vice versa. Given that they operate in the same space, they have to compete for the same customers, by producing a better product and through better marketing. Each company funds innovations using money generated through sales (complemented by capital raisings and amplified through investments). If they have more money, they can fund more developments and produce a better product. This, in turn, can sell better, which funds more R&D, and so on, in a self-reinforcing cycle. This is one of the key reasons the majority of new companies fail, or are bought out by their larger rivals, and why almost all mature industries are dominated by a few large companies, generally in the same ballpark size, rather than by a large number of small companies. Smaller companies that survive usually do so by finding a niche that's inconvenient or impractical for a larger company to fill (e.g. being too small or too geographically remote to be worthwhile for the larger company) rather than by competing directly - see Leica in the luxury camera space.

Nikon could do well as a niche manufacturer, putting Sony sensors and other electronics into packages to cover markets too small and unique to be worthwhile for Canon and Sony, or as an optics manufacturer. They will have a hard time competing against the other two directly. The only reason they could compete in the DSLR era was because they had a long history as a film camera maker, from a time when camera bodies were much simpler, largely mechanical devices requiring far less R&D than now, that (prior to AF) could mostly be produced in a well-equipped machine shop, and had come out on top. The large reservoir of existing F-mount lenses and users served them well in the move to digital. Canon had greater resources and could fight back, and losing the full frame DSLR race was costly to Nikon in terms of market share. Now, Nikon is in the reverse position, with a smaller customer base than Canon, but is also smaller than Canon and Sony and less well-equipped to compete in contested territory on a level footing. They can compete if they manage to greatly expand their optics division, doing for optics what Sony did for sensors, with a huge customer base outside the camera world; they will struggle as a mostly camera-only, in-house-only (making optics only for Nikon products) company, except as a niche manufacturer.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: shadowblade on August 14, 2018, 05:22:32 pm

But hey, these discussions are seldom about images but almost invariably about "the next best thing in my life." Not the same consideration at all, and I agree with you entirely about making good images with what exists and has already existed for ages. If you can't make what we already have do it, then baby, nothing ever will!

Rob

Because business and technical discussions are a lot more interesting. Anyone can take a photo, just like any car can drive at 100kph. It's a lot more interesting to talk about vehicle performance and compare characteristics between vehicles than about how all of them can go at the same 40kph on the congested freeway anyway.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 14, 2018, 05:44:41 pm
Nikon could do well as a niche manufacturer, putting Sony sensors and other electronics into packages to cover markets too small and unique to be worthwhile for Canon and Sony, or as an optics manufacturer. They will have a hard time competing against the other two directly. The only reason they could compete in the DSLR era was because they had a long history as a film camera maker, from a time when camera bodies were much simpler, largely mechanical devices requiring far less R&D than now, that (prior to AF) could mostly be produced in a well-equipped machine shop, and had come out on top. The large reservoir of existing F-mount lenses and users served them well in the move to digital. Canon had greater resources and could fight back, and losing the full frame DSLR race was costly to Nikon in terms of market share. Now, Nikon is in the reverse position, with a smaller customer base than Canon, but is also smaller than Canon and Sony and less well-equipped to compete in contested territory on a level footing. They can compete if they manage to greatly expand their optics division, doing for optics what Sony did for sensors, with a huge customer base outside the camera world; they will struggle as a mostly camera-only, in-house-only (making optics only for Nikon products) company, except as a niche manufacturer.

I now remember your numerous posts prior to the D850 release about how it was going to be a second tier device with an old sensor chip... the actual result... the best DSLR ever by a wide margin...

The only time in DSLR history where Canon was ahead technologically was the 1Ds till D3 period. Nikon was consistently in the lead before and after that for still photographers. On the body fromt, starting with the D30 and then 5Dmk II, Canon’s success always was in their ability to market well good quality cheaper cameras with low margins, a segment that we know is going to die soon from smart phone competition.

I am fully aware that Canon makes excellent glass, but so does Nikon. There is very little to tell them apart from a lens line-up/quality standpoint. It doesn’t look like Nikon didn’t have the R&D muscle, does it?

Overall, your theory that nikon doesn’t have the means to stay on top is absolutely not backed up by facts.

With all due respect, I am having serious doubts about your understanding of the current stakes and ability to forecast.  ;D

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: chez on August 14, 2018, 07:01:02 pm
I now remember your numerous posts prior to the D850 release about how it was going to be a second tier device with an old sensor chip... the actual result... the best DSLR ever by a wide margin...

The only time in DSLR history where Canon was ahead technologically was the 1Ds till D3 period. Nikon was consistently in the lead before and after that for still photographers. On the body fromt, starting with the D30 and then 5Dmk II, Canon’s success always was in their ability to market well good quality cheaper cameras with low margins, a segment that we know is going to die soon from smart phone competition.

I am fully aware that Canon makes excellent glass, but so does Nikon. There is very little to tell them apart from a lens line-up/quality standpoint. It doesn’t look like Nikon didn’t have the R&D muscle, does it?

Overall, your theory that nikon doesn’t have the means to stay on top is absolutely not backed up by facts.

With all due respect, I am having serious doubts about your understanding of the current stakes and ability to forecast.  ;D

Cheers,
Bernard

Can you point me to a photo you took with your Nikon system that could not be taken by a Sony or Canon system? Your whole view as "being on top" is getting comical as all these 3 manufactures make absolutely top notch gear, greatly exceeding the photographer's abilities.

What is obvious is Canon is much more "on top" when it comes to revenue and market share and Sony is greatly closing in on number 2 spot. Those are figures that have meaning...your view of "on top" is basically meaningless as the manufactures have all passed the "good enough" gate with their equipment.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 14, 2018, 07:15:21 pm
Either Nikon isn't able to catch up with technology any longer... or technology is a commodity.

You guys can't have both...  ;D

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: shadowblade on August 14, 2018, 07:28:17 pm
I now remember your numerous posts prior to the D850 release about how it was going to be a second tier device with an old sensor chip... the actual result... the best DSLR ever by a wide margin...

Please link to the relevant quote. And note the difference between when I mentioned possibilities or options and when I said Nikon would do something. Could and would are two different words - mentioning a possibility, with varying probability, is different from making a prediction.

I'm starting to think you're just putting words in my mouth and having me say whatever happens to be convenient for you at the time.

Quote
The only time in DSLR history where Canon was ahead technologically was the 1Ds till D3 period. Nikon was consistently in the lead before and after that for still photographers. On the body fromt, starting with the D30 and then 5Dmk II, Canon’s success always was in their ability to market well good quality cheaper cameras with low margins, a segment that we know is going to die soon from smart phone competition.

Nikon had no answer for the 5D2 until the D800. That was a four year gap. Canon pretty much held the technological lead from the beginning of DSLRs until Nikon got hold of Exmor (and not the first-generation A900/D3x sensor). That was around the time Canon pretty much moved their focus to video and stopped/slowed any significant development of SLR-specific technologies.

Quote
I am fully aware that Canon makes excellent glass, but so does Nikon. There is very little to tell them apart from a lens line-up/quality standpoint. It doesn’t look like Nikon didn’t have the R&D muscle, does it?

Nikon is an optics company. Lenses are their forte. I'm talking about electronics here, not lenses.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 14, 2018, 07:31:16 pm
Apologies, time's up my friends. I am not going to waste any second trying to dig old post of yours, I have a very vivid recollection of the negative campaign you performed about a year ago.

The D3x was announced a few months after the 5DII and was the first Exmor Nikon. 4 months, not 4 years. We speak about technology, right?

How about refocusing this thread on what it is about, which is the new Nikon mirrorless cameras?

Please feel free to talk about Sony and Canon elsewhere.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: shadowblade on August 14, 2018, 08:17:20 pm
Apologies, time's up my friends. I am not going to waste any second trying to dig old post of yours, I have a very vivid recollection of the negative campaign you performed about a year ago.

The unreliability of memory and recollection as evidence are well-documented.

Quote
The D3x was announced a few months after the 5DII and was the first Exmor Nikon. 4 months, not 4 years. We speak about technology, right?

Did you miss the part where i said not the first-generation A900/D3x sensor, or did you just choose to ignore it and quote selectively? The first-generation Exmor had serious weaknesses at anything above base ISO, couldn't be considered a general-purpose sensor and wasn't a competitor for the 5D2 (which was used as much as a video camera as anything else).
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 14, 2018, 08:25:03 pm
The first-generation Exmor had serious weaknesses at anything above base ISO, couldn't be considered a general-purpose sensor and wasn't a competitor for the 5D2 (which was used as much as a video camera as anything else).

https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Nikon-D3X-versus-Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-II-versus-Canon-EOS-1Ds-Mark-III___485_483_436

If find the gap between your statements above and the facts presented by DxO Mark to be a good summary of the level of credibility your claims have. Final answer from me.

How about refocusing this thread on what it is about, which is the new Nikon mirrorless cameras?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: shadowblade on August 14, 2018, 10:02:26 pm
https://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Nikon-D3X-versus-Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-II-versus-Canon-EOS-1Ds-Mark-III___485_483_436

If find the gap between your statements above and the facts presented by DxO Mark to be a good summary of the level of credibility your claims have. Final answer from me.

How about refocusing this thread on what it is about, which is the new Nikon mirrorless cameras?

Cheers,
Bernard

Your point being?

You've brought up a graph of DR measurements. No-one ever disputed Exmor's base ISO performance. But DR isn't everything. The point is, it had no DR advantage above ISO 400, produced noisy images at higher ISO, couldn't shoot video, had a barely-functional live view and came in a package costing three times as much as the 5D2 meant that it was not a competitor, but, rather, a specialised camera useful for a few applications, but with little utility as a general-purpose camera. Compare and contrast the number of wedding photographers using the D3x as opposed to the 5D2/D3/1Ds3/D700, for example.

Nikon did not come up with a high-resolution, high-DR camera which could also compete as a general-use camera until the D800, or even, arguably, the D810 (the D800 having a noticeable non-sensor performance deficit compared to the 5D3, which was made up for by Canon's sensor weakness).
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on August 15, 2018, 04:17:44 am
If find the gap between your statements above and the facts presented by DxO Mark to be a good summary of the level of credibility your claims have. Final answer from me.

I had no idea of your previous discussions but I think this is ad-hominem, and anyway you both are becoming too personal. Let's enjoy what the Big Three have to offer us all.

My conviction is that both Canon and Nikon from their duopoly position have been deliberately lagging the development of the entire mirrorless market during the last decade. This quite disappointed me since mirrorless is the only kind of camera I've been interested in since the first Olympus PEN and Panasonics appeared on the market, nevertheless their numerous flaws, because those were the cameras that made sense to me (I always wondered why my 350D couldn't preview the scene just like my cheap Pentax Optio 50 did, and how DSLR users could be happy with that). But I don't blame Canon or Nikon, will be happy if they finally come with good ML FF systems.

Regards
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Telecaster on August 15, 2018, 04:55:50 pm
My contention still stands that the less meaningful the differences between brands become in real-world use, the more heated the exchanges between "competing" brand acolytes tend to be. The need for tribe-based conflict is a weird, and often self-defeating, aspect of human nature.

-Dave-
Title: mirrorless brand wars (was "Nikon’s new mirrorless system")
Post by: BJL on August 15, 2018, 09:34:41 pm
Let me throw some (Japanese) market share stats in.
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bcnaward.jp%2Faward%2Fgallery%2Fdetail%2Fcontents_type%3D251%26date%3D2018&edit-text=
discussed in English at
https://www.dpreview.com/news/0966656912/2018-japan-bcn-camera-rankings-canon-dominates-dslrs-tops-sony-in-mirrorless

Note though that, contrary to the DPReview headline, [UPDATE: thank to Mike Broomfield for correcting my misundestanding—so the weirdness is the lede mentioning Canon and Sony—#2 and #3 in this category—while not mentioning Olympus being #1, again] the market share leader in mirrorless system cameras is Olympus at 27.7%, ahead of Canon at 21.3% which edges Sony into third place at 20.2%  How Sony's third became "tops" in the DPReview headline is a mystery. Maybe by the unstated restriction to 36x24mm format! That comes to mind because there are several assertions in this thread that are false as stated, but become true if you ignore the far greater part of the ILC market that involves smaller formats.

BTW, it is not clear to me one way or the other whether Sony's "first mover" advantage in 36x24mm format mirrorless systems will be enough to guarantee that Nikon will forever trail Sony in that sector, let alone whether Sony will stay ahead of Canon if/when it enters that segment: consider how Canon's EOS-M mirrorless system with only a handful of dedicated EF-M lenses available has taken the lead over the Sony and Fujifilm in "APS-C" format mirrorless systems that were on the market earlier and (to me at least) are clearly more impressive. Factors like overall brand strength and the attraction of using same-brand SLR lenses with same-brand adaptors can favor the overall ILC leaders, Canon and Nikon.
Title: Re: mirrorless brand wars (was "Nikon’s new mirrorless system")
Post by: shadowblade on August 15, 2018, 09:57:30 pm
Let me throw some (Japanese) market share stats in.
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bcnaward.jp%2Faward%2Fgallery%2Fdetail%2Fcontents_type%3D251%26date%3D2018&edit-text=
discussed in English at
https://www.dpreview.com/news/0966656912/2018-japan-bcn-camera-rankings-canon-dominates-dslrs-tops-sony-in-mirrorless

Note though that, contrary to the DPReview headline, the market share leader in mirrorless system cameras is Olympus at 27.7%, ahead of Canon at 21.3% which edges Sony into third place at 20.2%  How Sony's third became "tops" in the DPReview headline is a mystery. Maybe by the unstated restriction to 36x24mm format! That comes to mind because there are several assertions in this thread that are false as stated, but become true if you ignore the far greater part of the ILC market that involves smaller formats.

BTW, it is not clear to me one way or the other whether Sony's "first mover" advantage in 36x24mm format mirrorless systems will be enough to guarantee that Nikon will forever trail Sony in that sector, let alone whether Sony will stay ahead of Canon if/when it enters that segment: consider how Canon's EOS-M mirrorless system with only a handful of dedicated EF-M lenses available has taken the lead over the Sony and Fujifilm in "APS-C" format mirrorless systems that were on the market earlier and (to me at least) are clearly more impressive. Factors like overall brand strength and the attraction of using same-brand SLR lenses with same-brand adaptors can favor the overall ILC leaders, Canon and Nikon.

https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/sony-claims-they-are-now-number-one-in-the-usa-full-frame-market-will-it-last/ (https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/sony-claims-they-are-now-number-one-in-the-usa-full-frame-market-will-it-last/)

1. USA market vs Japan market
2. Full-frame vs overall - no doubt Olympus, Canon and Fuji sell a lot of crop-body cameras, but these tend to be low-margin products whose users often only buy one or two lenses, rather than a whole collection.
3. Absolute numbers vs percentage growth. Sony has nowhere to go but up, so their percentage growth is always going to be high, but that says nothing about absolute numbers. Canon and Nikon have more or less reached a steady equilibrium, where it's mostly users of older full-frame bodies replacing their systems, with a slow leakage of users replacing Canon/Nikon SLRs with Sony mirrorless bodies or Fuji medium format bodies (a leakage which may be arrested by Canon/Nikon mirrorless bodies, depending on their performance). In terms of absolutenumbers, it does say that around 40% of full-frame body sales this year have been of Sony bodies, but this may be misleading, owing to too short a time scale (more on that later)

Sources are at the bottom of the link - NPD group market research provided most of them, so it's not coming from Sony itself.

Three-year rolling average would be more useful than year-to-year change, though, due to camera release cycles and the effect of new releases - sales figures are likely to be 'spiky' rather than smooth, with upward 'spikes' every time a new body is released (and actually available in stores). No doubt the Jan-Jun 2018 figures would have been heavily padded by the A7r3 release in late 2017 (the A9 only came out towards the end of the corresponding period in 2017).

The line stating, 'Four out of every 10 full-frame cameras sold during this time period have come from the Sony brand' (referring to the first half of 2018) is interesting. This came soon after the release of the A7r3, while the A7III was released during that timeframe. New releases tend to produce a flurry of sales in the first year (possibly not immediately, due to lack of availability of bodies), with demand then tapering off. Nikon's D850 was Sony's only real competitor during that period, being released two months before the A7r3 and only really becoming widely available at the start of 2018. Canon hasn't released a higher-end full-frame body since 2016, with only the low-profile 6D2 coming in July 2017 (six months before the start of the period in question). All other full-frame cameras would have more or less returned to a 'baseline' sales rate. Basically, the 6-month period is far too short a period to view changes in market share. Even the year-on-year figures provided for 2016-2017 are too short a period. You really need a three- or four-year rolling average to see changes in the market between brands, in order to take into account camera release cycles.
Title: Re: mirrorless brand wars (was "Nikon’s new mirrorless system")
Post by: mcbroomf on August 16, 2018, 04:43:44 am
Let me throw some (Japanese) market share stats in.
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.bcnaward.jp%2Faward%2Fgallery%2Fdetail%2Fcontents_type%3D251%26date%3D2018&edit-text=
discussed in English at
https://www.dpreview.com/news/0966656912/2018-japan-bcn-camera-rankings-canon-dominates-dslrs-tops-sony-in-mirrorless

Note though that, contrary to the DPReview headline, the market share leader in mirrorless system cameras is Olympus at 27.7%, ahead of Canon at 21.3% which edges Sony into third place at 20.2%  How Sony's third became "tops" in the DPReview headline is a mystery. Maybe by the unstated restriction to 36x24mm format! That comes to mind because there are several assertions in this thread that are false as stated, but become true if you ignore the far greater part of the ILC market that involves smaller formats.

BTW, it is not clear to me one way or the other whether Sony's "first mover" advantage in 36x24mm format mirrorless systems will be enough to guarantee that Nikon will forever trail Sony in that sector, let alone whether Sony will stay ahead of Canon if/when it enters that segment: consider how Canon's EOS-M mirrorless system with only a handful of dedicated EF-M lenses available has taken the lead over the Sony and Fujifilm in "APS-C" format mirrorless systems that were on the market earlier and (to me at least) are clearly more impressive. Factors like overall brand strength and the attraction of using same-brand SLR lenses with same-brand adaptors can favor the overall ILC leaders, Canon and Nikon.

The way they worded the headline is a bit awkward but if you isolate it's clear they meant Canon "beats" Sony .. ie
"Canon dominates DSLRs, (and) tops Sony in mirrorless.

This is another tidbit.  I looked for the numbers and could not find them ...

"Sony Takes Over As No.1 In U.S. Full-frame Cameras"
"As DSLRs fade into the history books of photography, Sony has emerged as the official leader in full-frame cameras in the US. Newly-released NPD data shows the remarkable growth Sony has achieved through a combination of innovative next-generation mirrorless cameras and a thriving community of active creators who are reimagining what photography and videography can be. "

https://alphauniverse.com/stories/sony-takes-over-as-no-1-in-u-s--full-frame-cameras--launches-historic--be-alpha--campaign/
Title: Re: mirrorless brand wars (was "Nikon’s new mirrorless system")
Post by: shadowblade on August 16, 2018, 09:01:34 am
The way they worded the headline is a bit awkward but if you isolate it's clear they meant Canon "beats" Sony .. ie
"Canon dominates DSLRs, (and) tops Sony in mirrorless.

This is another tidbit.  I looked for the numbers and could not find them ...

"Sony Takes Over As No.1 In U.S. Full-frame Cameras"
"As DSLRs fade into the history books of photography, Sony has emerged as the official leader in full-frame cameras in the US. Newly-released NPD data shows the remarkable growth Sony has achieved through a combination of innovative next-generation mirrorless cameras and a thriving community of active creators who are reimagining what photography and videography can be. "

https://alphauniverse.com/stories/sony-takes-over-as-no-1-in-u-s--full-frame-cameras--launches-historic--be-alpha--campaign/

As I mentioned, different market, and full-frame only. The sources are listed at the bottom - they come from a market research firm, not from Sony's own bragging.

The Canon vs Sony contest is shaping up to be a very interesting one, and it may have less to do with camera body technology than lens technology.

Very broadly, you can divide the (better-than-phone-camera) market into three groups - performance-seeking, price-limited and size/weight-limited. Obviously, there is overlap - you can be a performance-seeker, but be price- or size-limited away from medium format, for instance, but, broadly speaking, any piece of equipment will be more or less attractive to each group based on its characteristics.

Camera forums and high-end users tend to represent the 'performance-seeking' group. This is where the A7r3, D850, D5, fast supertele lenses, super-sharp f/1.4 and faster primes, not to mention medium format, belong - a zone where price represents little object and customers are willing to carry big, heavy lenses and backpacks full of gear to get the best possible shots. Canon and Sony are both highly competitive in this field. Right now, Sony probably has the advantage, since they have an established full-frame body lineup that improves markedly with each generation and a rapidly-expanding lens lineup, while Canon is still rooted in old SLR technology and needs to get its full-frame mirrorless system off the ground; this is not irreversible, though, since Canon is a large company with more than enough resources to chase and catch up, much as Sony did when it went from being mainly an electronics company to competing with Canon and Nikon for the camera market.

But it is with the other two groups, representing a far bigger market, that Canon may have an upper hand in the medium term - and it largely comes down to their lens technology, not their sensor or body technology.

Canon has invested a lot of effort into developing diffraction optics and other beyond-classical optics. This allows lenses to be made smaller, lighter and cheaper (once mass production and economies of scale come into it) than non-DO lenses. Initially, there was a performance deficit, with the 'onion ring' bokeh in early-generation DO lenses, but improved manufacturing techniques for more precise optical surfaces, particularly on the nano-scale (similar to what Sony initially advertised in its G Master series), has largely mitigated this, and continues to improve. When used, it allows Canon to make a smaller lens with the same optical characteristics (focal length, aperture and image circle), or a lens of the same size with wider aperture, longer focal length or covering a larger image circle.

It wasn't so long ago that Canon said that, in a few years' time, we'd have compact zoom lenses with a 10-1000mm focal length range. They didn't mean that this would happen using ordinary optics. What Canon's developments would allow is things such as a full-frame mirrorless camera, the size of a Leica M-series, with a range of small, compact zoom and prime lenses stretching from 16mm f/4 to 200/4 and beyond - essentially, a full-frame Olympus E-series M43 camera with much greater capability. A lot of people - particularly the travelling crowd - aren't willing to lug a D850 or A7r3 with 10kg of lenses around, but are more than happy to bring an Olympus E-series with two or three small lenses. Canon could one-up them, delivering much more capability in a package of the same size. Or, for the more budget-minded, optical developments would allow for a 1.6x crop camera with a 10-1000mm lens (angle of view similar to 16-1600mm on full-frame) in a relatively compact package, delivering similar utility to Nikon's P900, but with much better image quality (particularly in low light) due to the much larger sensor.

Sony has its RX series bodies, as well as a number of pancake-type lenses. But, without new optics - diffraction optics, optical metameterials, electroactive optical materials, etc. - they can't go much further than this. Sure, they can continually improve sensors and electronics, as they will always do, but they won't be able to make significantly faster or longer lenses without running into physical size or cost limits, let alone come close to matching the effective reach of 'compact' (to use the term loosely) cameras such as Nikon's P900 and P1000, whose 24-2000mm or 24-3000mm equivalent angles of view really provide the imprimatur for their existence (their 1/2.3" sensors being otherwise low-end even by compact camera standards).

It goes further than this. Canon is both an electronics company, capable of producing its own sensors, and an optics company, while Sony is primarily an electronics company, which has only recently started to make forays into optics, since acquiring Minolta. There is no reason Canon can't make a play for the lucrative phone market, so far dominated by Sony, by producing combined sensor-optics packages containing either a standard-sized sensor with a more capable lens, or a bigger and better sensor with a lens covering the same angle of view, in the same size and price range as current phone camera packages. Or the drone camera market, with a large (1.5x/1.6x crop or even full-frame) sensor and lens in the same durable, lightweight package and price range as current small-sensor offerings. You couldn't do either with classical optics - you'd run into size and/or cost limits. But new developments in optics allow capabilities which would previously have required many large, heavy glass elements to be constructed using far fewer, lighter elements, in a smaller overall package. And this is where Canon has a huge lead over Sony, and could potentially capitalise on it, particularly outside of the 'performance-over-all-else' subset of cameras.

To compete with this, Sony would do well to pick up some more optics capability. Sigma, perhaps, or even Nikon. Maybe, somewhere in Sony's boardrooms, some committee has a hidden goal of trying to cripple Nikon financially, while retaining their technical expertise, making them ripe for a takeover (Sony could buy out Nikon now, but it would cost them a lot). Canon would be able to buy them out too, but would have far less reason to; essentially, their only reason to do so would be to keep them out of Sony's hands, and, given the relative sizes of Canon and Sony, a bidding war could cripple both of them.
Title: Re: mirrorless brand wars (was "Nikon’s new mirrorless system")
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 16, 2018, 10:00:42 am
The Canon vs Sony contest is shaping up to be a very interesting one, and it may have less to do with camera body technology than lens technology.

Right... does the scenario still apply if Canon doesn't announce a FF mirrorless on Sept 4th?  ;D ;D ;D

Is the performance of this fantasy camera and its lenses going to play any role at all? Or is the Canon logo enough to support your views of the world?

Is Nikon going to still sell a few Z of are they going to be shortcutted to fanboy bankruptcy in the coming days without getting the chance?

Sharing you knowledge with us would be most appreciated.  8)

Cheers,
Bernard

p.s.: I thought this thread was about the new Nikon mirrorless camera... obviously I was wrong...  ;)
Title: Re: mirrorless brand wars (was "Nikon’s new mirrorless system")
Post by: shadowblade on August 16, 2018, 11:07:12 am
Now you're just trolling.

Right... does the scenario still apply if Canon doesn't announce a FF mirrorless on Sept 4th?  ;D ;D ;D

Doesn't matter whether they announce it on September 4, two months later, or two years down the line. The underlying technologies remain, and the same groups of customers are still there. Budget-minded and casual users, in particular, can easily change systems with each generation, since they aren't beholden to a large collection of lenses. Same with any camera bodies using non-interchangeable lenses.

I take a longer view on things. Looking at their strategic direction over the last ten years, so does Canon. And, given their jump into mirrorless when it was still an underperforming, immature technology, in a world dominated by SLRs, so did Sony. Not to mention their purchase of Minolta, which took 11 years to really bear fruit for them.

Quote
Is the performance of this fantasy camera and its lenses going to play any role at all? Or is the Canon logo enough to support your views of the world?

The performance barely matters, so long as it hits a certain minimum standard. And both Canon and Sony are capable of hitting that standard (as are Nikon, Olympus, Fuji and a few others).

As long as basic functionality is there and performance is in the same ballpark (by 'same ballpark' I mean 'focuses where you point it' and 'sharp enough', not 'has 1.5 stops extra DR at base ISO' or 'has 5% extra tracking accuracy when shooting a cheetah sprinting in long grass at sunrise'), it's the other things that determine success - size and weight, price, zoom range, ruggedness, even colour scheme. These cameras aren't aimed at high-end users - put simply, you're not the target audience here. They want a camera that delivers better image quality than a phone, doesn't cost as much as a small car and is small and unobtrusive enough to take anywhere they might want to take photos (particularly travel and holidays). And that standard isn't hard to hit. Beyond that, it's all about 'what can it do' rather than 'can it do X really, really well' - think wide-angle capability, macro capability, ultra-long focal lengths, low-light capability, ability to be used underwater, image stabilisation, etc., rather than MTF charts or small amounts of DR.

And these technologies add to the performance. If you're working with a size and weight limit, diffractive optics lets you put a longer lens, faster lens and larger sensor into a package of the same size. Irrelevant if you're just after the best performance possible, but very relevant if you have a size/weight/price limit. The budget/size-limited camera market is many times larger than the high-end market, not to mention the phone camera market. Canon's and Sony's goal is to make as much money as possible, not to make the best possible camera for you.

Also, it's not a 'fantasy camera'. The technologies are experimental, have been prototyped, have patents and are in continual development - big difference. It may just exist in the lab at the moment, but can be brought to the forefront when the conditions are right (usually other needed technologies or manufacturing capabilities). In other words, not too different from mirrorless cameras 10 years ago, or CMOS 20 years ago.

Quote
Is Nikon going to still sell a few Z of are they going to be shortcutted to fanboy bankruptcy in the coming days without getting the chance?

They probably will - mostly to those who are already shooting Nikon. Winning new users will be an uphill battle, unless they specifically go for the Leica/Hasselblad luxury crowd (which is a very small market even in comparison to the full-frame market).

But how many they sell, and how good the camera is, is almost irrelevant in the long run. You can win every battle and still lose the war. Betamax was better than VHS. Strategically, Nikon is hemmed in at the bottom end. They can't compete at the low-margin budget end, since they don't make their own sensors and must buy them at whatever cost the fab plants decide to sell them for; at best, this leaves them competing with Olympus, Panasonic, Fujifilm and the like, who all buy their sensors from the same few sources, while, at worst, Canon and/or Sony could decide to really dominate the lower end and just undercut all of them with their own manufactured sensors. This forces them into the higher-end range, which has higher margins, but is a much smaller market in absolute terms. And even here, in the mirrorless market (where they do not enjoy fifty years of pedigree and F-mount lens collections), they risk being crowded out by Canon and Sony, pushing them into the even higher-priced luxury market, which has high profit margins but low volumes and where the Nikon name doesn't carry the same cachet as names like Leica and Hasselblad. Until they can either make their own sensors, or sensors become so cheap that they become an insignificant part of the cost of even a budget camera, or they pull out of the camera market entirely and become an optics company, Nikon are essentially at the mercy of their suppliers, living in small niches where the bigger companies don't find it worthwhile to compete, but unable to dislodge the big two from contested ground.

Title: Re: mirrorless brand wars (was "Nikon’s new mirrorless system")
Post by: BJL on August 16, 2018, 12:24:31 pm
Some comments on these two different sets of sales stats:
1) Sony’s is for only a half year; one in which it launched a new model and another the previous October, whereas Nikon’s latest release was July 2017 and Canon’s was June 2017. BCN instead is full year data.

2) BCN has a link for previous years back to 2011, and some trends are clear:
- Olympus and/or Panasonic on top most years; moreso if you aggregate MFT.
- Sony a bit of a downward trend since its great 2015
- Canon trending up since at least 2015
- Panasonic trending down (maybe due to its shift to lower volume higher end video-oriented models)
- Olympus flat the last two years; a bit down on share compared to the pre-Canon era.
- Even the annual aggregates have some big jumps up and down, suggesting volatility related to the release of a single popular model or new technology

3) Japan vs USA indeed. Given that Japan is far ahead of the USA in mirrorless adoption, it’s sales data might be a better “leading indicator”
Title: Re: mirrorless brand wars (was "Nikon’s new mirrorless system")
Post by: chez on August 16, 2018, 01:01:36 pm
Some comments on these two different sets of sales stats:
1) Sony’s is for only a half year; one in which it launched a new model and another the previous October, whereas Nikon’s latest release was July 2017 and Canon’s was June 2017. BCN instead is full year data.

2) BCN has a link for previous years back to 2011, and some trends are clear:
- Olympus and/or Panasonic on top most years; moreso if you aggregate MFT.
- Sony a bit of a downward trend since its great 2015
- Canon trending up since at least 2015
- Panasonic trending down (maybe due to its shift to lower volume higher end video-oriented models)
- Olympus flat the last two years; a bit down on share compared to the pre-Canon era.
- Even the annual aggregates have some big jumps up and down, suggesting volatility related to the release of a single popular model or new technology

3) Japan vs USA indeed. Given that Japan is far ahead of the USA in mirrorless adoption, it’s sales data might be a better “leading indicator”

Given that the Sony full frame mirror less cameras were released less than 5 years ago, it's a hell of an accomplishment to outsell the two big guns in the largest camera market which just happens to also be the slowest to adapt to mirror less cameras in general.

Also given that BCN looks at the Japanese market which typically want smaller crop cameras, it's no surprise that Sony full frame cameras don't sell as well in that market.

Sony has stated a few years ago they are focusing on the high end ( meaning high margin ) market where the phone cameras do not compete.
Title: Re: mirrorless brand wars (was "Nikon’s new mirrorless system")
Post by: BJL on August 16, 2018, 01:33:52 pm
Sony has stated a few years ago they are focusing on the high end ( meaning high margin ) market where the phone cameras do not compete.
Are you suggesting that phone-cameras in any significant way compete with the mainstream format mirrorless camera formats, MFT or APS-C? Maybe I get a hint from the use of the misleading anachronism “crop”; none of these mirrorless systems rely on forcing a crop on a lens system designed for 35mm film format; at most that slightly applies to APS-C format DSLRs for which format-specific lens development is stalled.
Title: Re: mirrorless brand wars (was "Nikon’s new mirrorless system")
Post by: chez on August 16, 2018, 01:50:15 pm
Are you suggesting that phone-cameras in any significant way compete with the mainstream format mirrorless camera formats, MFT or APS-C? Maybe I get a hint from the use of the misleading anachronism “crop”; none of these mirrorless systems rely on forcing a crop on a lens system designed for 35mm film format; at most that slightly applies to APS-C format DSLRs for which format-specific lens development is stalled.

Yes I am suggesting that the lower end of all cameras including mirror less is being hurt by phone cameras. Looking at the latest report from Olympus shows their mirror less sales have declined by 11% in the 1st quarter this year compared to last...and their future forecast indicates yet further declines. High end cameras are much more isolated from the phone cameras as they serve a different niche.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: MichaelEzra on August 16, 2018, 02:06:15 pm
I just hope that this time Nikon evolves beyond the pitiful 1EV step for exposure bracketing...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: alan_b on August 16, 2018, 04:02:40 pm
I just hope that this time Nikon evolves beyond the pitiful 1EV step for exposure bracketing...

Granted. You have two wishes remaining!
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 16, 2018, 05:09:54 pm
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/16/first-nikon-z-mirrorless-camera-report-from-somebody-who-actually-used-the-camera.aspx/

Chees,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Chairman Bill on August 16, 2018, 05:14:37 pm
Can I just say that Nikon is rubbish and have never made a decent camera in the history of forever and Sony is brilliant and better than anyone else at making cameras and make the best cameras and Nikon will never make one as good as a Sony and ... oh, wait. Someone's already said it. I suppose I might as well just wander off and grow up :-(
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 16, 2018, 05:41:40 pm
Can I just say that Nikon is rubbish and have never made a decent camera in the history of forever and Sony is brilliant and better than anyone else at making cameras and make the best cameras and Nikon will never make one as good as a Sony and ... oh, wait. Someone's already said it. I suppose I might as well just wander off and grow up :-(

:)

Not that fast... you...
- have to write it at least 30 times
- add Canon to the mix
- double check that your post indeed lack any degree of objectivity
- triple check that you are still aligned with all the perfect fanboy guidelines
- make sure you have exhausted the will of all posters interested in discussing the original subject matter...

And then do it again.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: mirrorless brand wars (was "Nikon’s new mirrorless system")
Post by: shadowblade on August 16, 2018, 05:54:11 pm
Some comments on these two different sets of sales stats:
1) Sony’s is for only a half year; one in which it launched a new model and another the previous October, whereas Nikon’s latest release was July 2017 and Canon’s was June 2017. BCN instead is full year data.

Well, the D850 wasn't actually released until September (despite its July announcement) and wasn't widely available in stores until early 2018. The A7r3 was widely available from November.

Regardless, it is the A7III that really skews the data and just illustrates why 6 month or 1 year periods are too short to see any sort of a long-term trend in camera markets.

Quote
2) BCN has a link for previous years back to 2011, and some trends are clear:
- Olympus and/or Panasonic on top most years; moreso if you aggregate MFT.

Only in terms of bodies sold, and only if you look at mirrorless only.

But Olympus and Panasonic only make APS-C bodies. They sell them hard - more so than Canon, Nikon or Sony - and have been in the mirrorless game longer than all but Sony (whose initial NEX came out around the same time but suffered from a deficit in compatible lenses compared with Olympus/Panasonic), so they can be seen as the incumbents in the APS-C mirrorless world, just as Canon is incumbent in SLRs (owing to their early development of CMOS, full frame and video) and Sony in full-frame mirrorless (with their five-year head start over anyone else). But budget APS-C bodies are nowhere near as profitable on a per-unit basis than higher-end bodies - the margins on the bodies are much lower, since the customer base is much more price-sensitive, while they sell fewer, and less expensive, lenses per body, since the average customer is a hobbyist or even a non-photographer who just wants a better-than-phone-camera and two or there small lenses to take on holiday or to social events, rather than an enthusiast or pro with their body weight or more in camera gear.

This does not diminish Olympus and Panasonic ar all - they have clearly been very successful within their defined market segment - but merely means that figures must be put into context. More bodies moved, but much less profit per body, with quoted figures restricted to a market that probably has more non-photographers using better-than-phone cameras than anywhere else (Tokyo teens often been seen with compact or small mirrorless cameras in social settings, while every second domestic traveller seems to have one) and more of an emphasis on small size than most other places.

Quote
- Sony a bit of a downward trend since its great 2015

This is likely a misleading artifact stemming from the release cycle of cameras, and another illustration of why annual figures are too short a period and create too 'noisy' a result compared with three-year rolling averages.

In 2015, Sony releases the A7r2 and A7s2, while the A7II only became available a few days before the year started. That's three big 'spikes' all in the same year. In contrast, 2016 saw nothing, while 2017 saw the A9 (a much smaller customer base, although highly profitable per unit sold, after counting lenses), with the A7r3 coming right at the end, with sales coming mostly in 2018. For that reason (A7r3 and A7IiI) 2018 may show up as another big year for Sony in the charts, although a three-year rolling average is likely to show a steady increase in Sony's market share rather than the cluster of tall spikes you'd see in yearly or six-monthly charts.

Quote
- Canon trending up since at least 2015

In terms of mirrorless cameras, they could hardly have gone lower from where they were. Their gradually-expanding lens choices and steadily-improving dual pixel AF has also made them much more viable in recent years, whereas they would previously have represented a poor choice against M43, despite the larger sensor size. Also, Canon mirrorless bodies seem to be heavily marketed in Japan in a way I haven't seen outside of there, whether here in Australia, in the Middle East or other parts of Asia.

Quote
- Panasonic trending down (maybe due to its shift to lower volume higher end video-oriented models)

Agree.

Quote
- Olympus flat the last two years; a bit down on share compared to the pre-Canon era.

This may be due to market saturation. Anyone who wants a compact M43 body already has one. Olympus' market, at least in Japan, may be starting to reach a steady-state phase mostly driven by replacement of old bodies with new rather than through new customers. Also, Canon is now a more credible compact option than before and has the advantage of larger sensor size while still having small lenses. (Sony not so much - they may have small APS-C bodies, but many compact lenses to go with it.

Quote
- Even the annual aggregates have some big jumps up and down, suggesting volatility related to the release of a single popular model or new technology

Pretty much what I've been saying. We need rolling averages, or the figures to calculate them, not annual or 6-monthly figures.

Quote
3) Japan vs USA indeed. Given that Japan is far ahead of the USA in mirrorless adoption, it’s sales data might be a better “leading indicator”

Only in some ways. Japan is far ahead in terms of mirrorless uptake, but also has a far larger proportion of people using better-than-phone cameras. In the west, it tends to be quite binary - either people are using a phone camera, or they're loaded with the biggest and best, with fewer people using in-between options (compact mirrorless and non-interchangeable lens bodies). In Japan (and I've also noticed Hong Kong and Singapore) you see all sorts of people carrying all sorts of cameras, using them in situations where, elsewhere, you'd typically see people pulling out phone cameras instead. So this tends to inflate the lower end of the market.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Alex Waugh on August 16, 2018, 06:27:33 pm
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/16/first-nikon-z-mirrorless-camera-report-from-somebody-who-actually-used-the-camera.aspx/

Chees,
Bernard

If the body / EVF are the same across both cameras I would prefer 24MP to 45MP. Unfortunately I also really want D850 color fidelity, ISO 64 and no AA filter.

If Nikon specced a 24MP sensor with D850 response and higher ISO capability id be in heaven. I'd be happy to sacrifice resolution. Unfortunately my basic understanding is that having both high + low ISO performance is a "you cannot have you cake and eat it too" situation.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: D Fuller on August 16, 2018, 11:26:29 pm
Unfortunately my basic understanding is that having both high + low ISO performance is a "you cannot have you cake and eat it too" situation.

True. You really have to think about cameras as we used to think about film stocks. The D850 is the Panatomic-X, while the A7s is the Tri-X (higher sensitivity and granier) and the D750 or A73 is the plus-X.

Not a perfect analogy, but it is kind of how I think about them.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Alex Waugh on August 17, 2018, 01:45:53 am
True. You really have to think about cameras as we used to think about film stocks. The D850 is the Panatomic-X, while the A7s is the Tri-X (higher sensitivity and granier) and the D750 or A73 is the plus-X.

Not a perfect analogy, but it is kind of how I think about them.

Thats a good way to think about it actually.

To be honest I don't even mind about the high ISO performance, I'd just like D850 image fidelity (colour, low ISO, no AA) in a lower resolution sensor. It would be nice to save some $$ as well but thats secondary. I travel a lot and do a lot of photoshop work on the road. It would be nice to work on smaller files as beautiful as the 45MP ones.

Over the last 12 months working mostly in fashion and commercial I have not once seen a client worry about megapixels. I see 1 series bodies being used to shoot billboards, 5D3s on countless editorials and various other 18-30MP cameras used all the time. I appreciate some people need the resolution but many of us do not.

I shoot a D850 because I love the file quality.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: MichaelEzra on August 17, 2018, 01:22:34 pm
Granted. You have two wishes remaining!
:) All three wishes are the same!

Interesting, I seem to be getting cameras which have "Z" in them..
Mamiya RZ Pro II, Mamiya ZD, Pentax 645Z and now this Nikon is the Z mount?? They better fix the bracketing:)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: ErikKaffehr on August 17, 2018, 02:53:05 pm
Hi,

All those cameras are pretty close regarding high ISO. DxO-mark's sport rating, maximum usable ISO:

Sony A7III 3730
Sony A7s   3702
Sony A7rII 3523
Nikon D850 2660
Nikon D750 2956

The figures above are essentially maximum usable ISO.

So, you can eat the cake and still have it...

Best regards
Erik


True. You really have to think about cameras as we used to think about film stocks. The D850 is the Panatomic-X, while the A7s is the Tri-X (higher sensitivity and granier) and the D750 or A73 is the plus-X.

Not a perfect analogy, but it is kind of how I think about them.
Title: Re: mirrorless brand wars (was "Nikon’s new mirrorless system")
Post by: DP on August 17, 2018, 09:50:29 pm
But Olympus and Panasonic only make APS-C bodies. They sell them hard - more so than Canon, Nikon or Sony - and have been in the mirrorless game longer than all but Sony (whose initial NEX came out around the same time

about the same time: Panasonic G1 = Sep 2008, Sony Nex3/Nex5 = May 2010... yes, about the same time  ;D
Title: Re: mirrorless brand wars (was "Nikon’s new mirrorless system")
Post by: shadowblade on August 17, 2018, 10:23:45 pm
about the same time: Panasonic G1 = Sep 2008, Sony Nex3/Nex5 = May 2010... yes, about the same time  ;D

Given that the G1, E-P1 and Nex5 were released 10 months apart (G1 in Sep 2008, E-P1 in July 2009, Nex5 in May 2010), and Olympus and Panasonic are often mentioned in the same breath (given that they share the same mount - and it was really the E-PEN series that gave M43 its popularity, not the Lumix), yes, they were all around the same time - all within the prehistory of mirrorless cameras, given that it is now eight years down the track. It's in the same vein as we would say that the Nikon D1 and Canon 1D were released 'around the same time', even though they were two years apart - in the timescale of current-day digital cameras, it's all prehistory.

Anyway, you're missing the wood for the trees - taking half a sentence out of a 1000-word post (a scene-setting sentence at that, not even an actual point of argument) and using that as your point of rebuttal. That's little better than seizing on spelling or obscure grammar rules to try to invalidate an argument and would be thrown out of any debate.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: jeremyrh on August 18, 2018, 05:17:51 am
On my wall I have a bunch of prints of pictures taken with various generations of Nikon. I used to be pretty happy with them, but looking at Nikon's market share,  I realise they are not that good after all. Darn :-(
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 18, 2018, 07:57:11 am
Nikon D1 - 15-June-1999
Canon 1Ds - 24 sept 2002

3 years 3 months, not 2 years.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: shadowblade on August 18, 2018, 09:59:57 am
Nikon D1 - 15-June-1999
Canon 1Ds - 24 sept 2002

3 years 3 months, not 2 years.

Cheers,
Bernard

I said 1D, not 1Ds.

1Ds was a whole new level in capability, anyway, being the first full-frame body.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: D Fuller on August 18, 2018, 10:28:16 am
Hi,

All those cameras are pretty close regarding high ISO. DxO-mark's sport rating, maximum usable ISO:

Sony A7III 3730
Sony A7s   3702
Sony A7rII 3523
Nikon D850 2660
Nikon D750 2956

The figures above are essentially maximum usable ISO.

So, you can eat the cake and still have it...

Best regards
Erik

I don't own all of those cameras, but I'd disagree with DXO on some of those ratings for the ones I have. As I most often use the A7s, for example, its base ISO is 3200, and it's usable up to about 12,000, Maybe 25,000 if you have no better choice. (Everything above that is pretty much a party trick, IMO.)

I take your point, though. The A7r2 (which I did own, but traded for the r3 because I hated it) does quite well at ISOs nearly as high. But--and this is my real point--it has a different look. Large pixel cameras render differently from small pixel cameras, even when both are downsampled. And to me, it's always seemed similar to the differences in the look of different film stocks. Maybe it's just a metaphor, but it seems s a useful one.

To bring this back on topic, it will be interesting to see how the Nikon mirrorless cameras render--how they differ from each other and the rest of the field, both in the low ISO/high res arena and low light/high iso. I tend to like Nikon's rendering more than Sony's, so I'm hopeful...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system — and those bogus DXO "ISO calibrations, again
Post by: BJL on August 18, 2018, 02:19:03 pm
I don't own all of those cameras, but I'd disagree with DXO on some of those ratings for the ones I have. ...
This might be related to DXO's nonsensical mis-use of ISO definitions, where they use a measure of highlight headroom that is irrelevant as a measure of low-light handling.  I will avoid repeating my lengthy previous debunkings, but the essence of it is this:

even if two cameras have equally good low-light performance, with the same combinations of shutter speed, aperture ratio and ISO setting giving equal noise levels, and with their light metering system choosing or recommending equal combinations of shutter speed and aperture ratio at a given ISO setting, the camera that has more highlight headroom in the raw files is declared by DXO to have a lower "true ISO", and so looks worse on DXO's low light handling comparisons.

This happens because DXO confuses a guideline for minimum safe exposure index (to have an acceptably low risk of highlight clipping) at a given ISO setting with a measure of low-light handling ability.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BJL on August 18, 2018, 09:03:29 pm
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/16/first-nikon-z-mirrorless-camera-report-from-somebody-who-actually-used-the-camera.aspx/
The first two points raise a conundrum:
Quote
1) The Nikon Z6/Z7 have many similarities to the Sony's 7 series
2) The new Z-mount is almost as large as medium format mount for some 6x6 SLR cameras
comparing front-on photos of the rumored "Z-cameras" and a Sony A7 series model with no lens, the mount on the Nikon only has a few mm less space below and above than on the Sony. So if the bodies are of similar size as claim (1) suggests, the Z mount can only be a few mm larger than E -mount's 46.2mm: about 50mm?

Alternatively, if Z mount is nearly 6x6 MF size as in claim (2) the Z body is 40% or more higher—and also 40% or more wider, as the height-to-width ratios are similar—huge, and seemingly at odds with claim (1).

P.S. AFAIK, Hasselblad V mount has a throat diameter of about 75-80mm, so my 40% is a low estimate.

But we do get some objective facts:
Quote
3) Handling and ergonomics are perfect
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 19, 2018, 02:06:41 am
We will know in 4 days, but it seems likely that the Z mount is btw 55 and 58mm.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: davidgp on August 19, 2018, 03:27:51 am
I don't own all of those cameras, but I'd disagree with DXO on some of those ratings for the ones I have. As I most often use the A7s, for example, its base ISO is 3200, and it's usable up to about 12,000, Maybe 25,000 if you have no better choice. (Everything above that is pretty much a party trick, IMO.)

I take your point, though. The A7r2 (which I did own, but traded for the r3 because I hated it) does quite well at ISOs nearly as high. But--and this is my real point--it has a different look. Large pixel cameras render differently from small pixel cameras, even when both are downsampled. And to me, it's always seemed similar to the differences in the look of different film stocks. Maybe it's just a metaphor, but it seems s a useful one.

To bring this back on topic, it will be interesting to see how the Nikon mirrorless cameras render--how they differ from each other and the rest of the field, both in the low ISO/high res arena and low light/high iso. I tend to like Nikon's rendering more than Sony's, so I'm hopeful...

I think Sony A7s base ISO is still ISO 100. Looking at http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm , looks like that Sony is doing something at ISO 3200. Not sure if aptina-like amplification as in A7r II, A7 III, A9, A7r III or D850. Maybe for that reason Sony forces you to use ISO 3200 if shooting video with picture profiles active or for that reason is why night photographers like to use the camera at that ISO as minimum: https://www.lonelyspeck.com/sony-a7s-astrophotography-review/
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system — and those bogus DXO "ISO calibrations, again
Post by: Ray on August 19, 2018, 05:59:42 am
This might be related to DXO's nonsensical mis-use of ISO definitions, where they use a measure of highlight headroom that is irrelevant as a measure of low-light handling.

How on earth can highlight headroom be irrelevant as a measure of low-light handling? Surely it can only be irrelevant if blown highlights are irrelevant.

For example, let's say two different models of camera are used at their nominated ISO of 100, using the same 'real' f/stop and 'real' shutter speed for the same subject in the same lighting.

Let's say both cameras have equally low noise in the shadows, but one camera has blown highlights which cannot be recovered.

DXO would claim that the camera producing the blown highlights has a higher 'real' ISO than the other camera. Whether or not that 'real' ISO is 80, or 120, or 150, is irrelevant for the practical concerns of photographers who want the best technical image quality with low noise in the shadows and no blown highlights.

It's the comparison that's important, in relation to noise levels at 'effectively' the same shutter speeds and f/stops, in relation to the same ISO sensitivity; and that's what DXO does very well.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: scooby70 on August 19, 2018, 06:34:59 am
Never said that, you are over-reacting.

Most Sony a7rIII owners I know describe it as being much much better than the v2 and they described the v2 as being much much better than v1.

The rugdness comment comes from a well know test. It never meant that every a7 would fail at the first drop of rain, just that it can and is behind its DSLR competition.

Not sure why you seem to be taking these as personnal offenses.

You took the decision to be an early adopter of the first version of a new line in a new market segment. It shouldn’t come as a surprise that it isn’t pefect.

Cheers,
Bernard

er...


Besides, although Sony has delivered solid cameras with the a7/a9 and have demonstrated great innovation drive, they are far from perfect. They are great compared to the very flawed first iterations, but still half baked compared to what most photographers would like them to be (ergonomics, EVF, ruggedness, battery life,...).

Cheers,
Bernard

I'm not taking this personally, I just get tired of all the... hyperbole.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: HSakols on August 19, 2018, 10:06:52 am
I'm curious about the new 24-70 zoom.  I imagine it will be lighter than the 2.8 model, but will it just be a kit lens?  Also I imagine non of this will be available for another year or so. 
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system — and those bogus DXO "ISO calibrations, again
Post by: BJL on August 19, 2018, 10:49:14 am
How on earth can highlight headroom be irrelevant as a measure of low-light handling? Surely it can only be irrelevant if blown highlights are irrelevant.
Perhaps you are misunderstanding me; yes even at ISO speeds well above the photosite-satutation based "base ISO speed", there is a risk of blown highlights. But it come from over-amplifying and thus causing clipping in the amplifier or ADC [I will call this "clipping"]; the photosites themselves will be far short of full in that situation, and so not at risk of blowing highlights at the photosite level.
The way to reduce this risk — as used by every ILC camera maker to varying degrees — is to be conservative with the amplification, placing midtones at a raw level three, four or more stops below maximum raw level, not at the 2.5 which is indicated as a bare minimum of highlight headroom in the ISO SSat standard.  And yet better avoidance of highlight clipping is what DXO "punishes" by falsely declaring that the ISO speed is lower, causing DXO's measure of maximum usable ISO speed to bw lower for a camera that allows more raw headroom for better clipping avoidance.

And as always note that the amplification is still enough that the lower bits are resolving far more finely than the noise levels, so this "less high" amplifcation used in some cameras is not causing any problems with quantization noise.

Note: some camera have two photosite-saturation-based base ISO speeds, switching to a higher one at sufficiently high ISO speed settings by reducing the photosites' well capacity.

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Rory on August 19, 2018, 12:23:03 pm
I'm curious about the new 24-70 zoom.  I imagine it will be lighter than the 2.8 model, but will it just be a kit lens?  Also I imagine non of this will be available for another year or so.

I'd bet on a lot sooner than that based on Nikon history of announcements and availability.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 19, 2018, 07:40:22 pm
I'd bet on a lot sooner than that based on Nikon history of announcements and availability.

Indeed, their recent track record is less than a month btw announcement and availability.

This being said, the latest rumors speak of November.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Alex Waugh on August 19, 2018, 09:23:47 pm
Looks like we won't be getting a 28mm or 24mm at launch. I understand why they went with the classics but not what I was hoping for.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 20, 2018, 02:18:44 am
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/20/new-nikon-mirrorless-camera-teaser-video.aspx/#more-124873

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: chez on August 20, 2018, 10:17:05 am
Indeed, their recent track record is less than a month btw announcement and availability.

This being said, the latest rumors speak of November.

Cheers,
Bernard

Yeh, availability of one at a time like the 850. Can anyone buy one yet?  ;)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BJL on August 20, 2018, 12:27:50 pm
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/20/new-nikon-mirrorless-camera-teaser-video.aspx/#more-124873
A few words jump out: “take anywhere” and “so lightweight”. Maybe this new “compact system camera” will actually be compact!
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 20, 2018, 05:09:52 pm
Yeh, availability of one at a time like the 850. Can anyone buy one yet?  ;)

I have been shooting the D850 for nearly 12 months.

The D850 has been available in stock everywhere for months but in the US.

Trump must be another Sony fanboy.  ;D

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 20, 2018, 05:38:34 pm
Besides, various reports are starting to appear that the replacement of the D3400 may come soon in the form of an F mount based APS-C mirrorless body.

Nikon already has 3 AF-P zoom lenses compatible with contrast AF.

The D3400 is already pretty compact and lightweight, removing the mirror should further improve its bulk.

This could be an amazing support for the tens of millions of compact manual focus F mount lenses with legacy look that can be bought dirt cheap.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BJL on August 20, 2018, 09:18:40 pm
Besides, various reports are starting to appear that the replacement of the D3400 may come soon in the form of an F mount based APS-C mirrorless body.

One last round of hopes for an "21st century EVF camera with an antiquated, overly deep lens mount designed for film SLRs and lenses in a different format size"? I do however hope that a more mainstream 24x16 format Z-mount body follows soon, once Nikon has stated its seriousness about EVF cameras with some high quality 36x24 format offerings.

BTW, unless I am missing something, Nikon's most recent "entry level 36x24 format" body is the almost four year old D750. (Or if the D610 is considered as the current entry level FX model, it is even older: October 2013.)  If so, does this hint that Nikon sees future demand for DSLRs mostly at the high end, where the fastest continuous AF, maximum compatibility with expensive F-mount lens collections and so on still favor them, while it is already winding down DSLR development at the lower levels? Wild speculation I suppose.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 20, 2018, 09:44:59 pm
BTW, unless I am missing something, Nikon's most recent "entry level 36x24 format" body is the almost four year old D750. (Or if the D610 is considered as the current entry level FX model, it is even older: October 2013.)  If so, does this hint that Nikon sees future demand for DSLRs mostly at the high end, where the fastest continuous AF, maximum compatibility with expensive F-mount lens collections and so on still favor them, while it is already winding down DSLR development at the lower levels? Wild speculation I suppose.

Nikon has been stating in their business reports for years now that they are targeting the high end, which clearly means that they see no significant revenue potential in the low end. I believe that they have simply been executing on this strategy. Their recent DSLRs have been focused on the best possible performance technology can deliver, so are their lenses.

As I have written several times, I think they are right. The low end will be dead to smartphones in less than 3 years just like compact cameras have died already.

There is really no reason why low end DSLR/mirrorless should do better. They are mostly used the same way as compacts were, meaning with only a standard zoom lens on 99% of the time that's not that good, nor that bright. The smartphones are now reaching the level of quality that people bought their low end DSLRs/mirrorless for. And if they haven't the next gen will.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BJL on August 20, 2018, 10:44:40 pm
Nikon has been stating in their business reports for years now that they are targeting the high end, which clearly means that they see no significant revenue potential in the low end.
I am not sure if Nikon is talking about $1500-$2300 36x24 format camera when it says "low end"; after all, Nikon has introduced five or six less expensive DSLRs since the D750 (all in DX format).  Amongst DSLRs, "low end" is sub-$1000; in Nikon's camera range as a whole; it means the cheaper fixed lens compact cameras that every camera maker is moving away from.

And I repeat that the idea of phone-cameras replacing ILC cameras with sensors about twenty times larger with interchangeable lenses offering vastly better low-light/high speed abilities and wide zoom ranges is absurd; computational photography cannot magically overcome the fundamental (quantum mechanical!) advantages that come from far greater light gathering ability and true optical zoom. Note again those five or six newer and "even lower end" Nikon DSLRs.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 20, 2018, 11:05:22 pm
And I repeat that the idea of phone-cameras replacing ILC cameras with sensors about twenty times larger with interchangeable lenses offering vastly better low-light/high speed abilities and wide zoom ranges is absurd; computational photography cannot magically overcome the fundamental (quantum mechanical!) advantages that come from far greater light gathering ability and true optical zoom. Note again those five or six newer and "even lower end" Nikon DSLRs.

I fully agree with what you are writing, but the thing is that smartphones don't need to reach low end DSLR/mirrorless performance level to kill them (just like they didn't need to overtake compact digital cameras to kill them), they just need to reach the level of quality people need taking into account the huge usability advantage of the smartphone.

There are plenty of lenses add-ons for smartphones that enable optical zooming and this is only going to be improving moving forward.

Anyway, we will see moving forward.

At least Nikon seems to think that low end has no future. It doesn't mean they won't release any more cameras in that segment, just that it will probably not be a strategic area of investment for them.

I personally prefer them to focus their resources on high end bodies and lenses, this is where they have proven their ability to deliver unique value to the market.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 21, 2018, 06:22:51 pm
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/21/breaking-the-first-leaked-press-photo-of-the-nikon-z6-and-z7-mirrorless-cameras.aspx/

Sounds good to me:
- identical UI btw the 2 models
- feels like a mix btwn Nikon and Leica - they have apparently streamlined the UI while keeping the essential physical controls available
- looks very solid
- they finally got rid of the cheap looking gold plating on the lens and simplified the naming

But anyway, I don’t believe that anyone was expecting them to mess up the physical part of these cameras.

It appears that the specs should follow soon.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming real soon now and looking good!
Post by: BJL on August 21, 2018, 07:38:49 pm
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/21/breaking-the-first-leaked-press-photo-of-the-nikon-z6-and-z7-mirrorless-cameras.aspx/
Now that we can see the sensor inside the mount, and assuming that the central light blue part is the active 36x24mm region, I eyeball the throat diameter as about 7-8mm more than sensor diagonal, so I would say around 50-51mm throat diameter. Which is enough to easily accommodate any optical design that works with Canon EF mount, so long as Z mount is under 20mm deep as rumored.

P. S. And mount external diameter of about 61-65mm.

P. P. S. The original source https://www.nokishita-camera.com/2018/08/z6z7.html has more images, including the three rumored lenses and an "FTZ" mount adaptor with tripod mount.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming real soon now and looking good!
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 21, 2018, 08:01:43 pm
Now that we can see the sensor inside the mount, and assuming that the central light blue part is the active 36x24mm region, I eyeball the throat diameter as about 7-8mm more than sensor diagonal, so I would say around 50-51mm throat diameter. Which is enough to easily accommodate any optical design that works with Canon EF mount, so long as Z mount is under 20mm deep as rumored.

Per the computation I just did in PS, I predict 55.5mm for the internal mount size (ignoring the inside mounting ribs).

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming real soon now and looking good!
Post by: BJL on August 21, 2018, 08:07:24 pm
Per the computation I just did in PS, I predict 55.5mm for the internal mount size (ignoring the inside mounting ribs).

Cheers,
Bernard
Could be; my eye-balls's error bars might reach to 55mm! Agreed that it is a mistake to go top-left to bottom right, due to those ribs; I speculate that they caused the initial 49mm figure.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming real soon now and looking good!
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 21, 2018, 08:27:38 pm
Could be; my eye-balls's error bars might reach to 55mm! Agreed that it is a mistake to go top-left to bottom right, due to those ribs; I speculate that they caused the initial 49mm figure.

Now, on the other hand I didn’t take perspective into account, so you may end up being right. ;)

I’d say 54mm.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: DP on August 22, 2018, 01:05:03 am
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/21/breaking-the-first-leaked-press-photo-of-the-nikon-z6-and-z7-mirrorless-cameras.aspx/

is that 24-70/4 a double trombone ? ugly !
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Rob C on August 22, 2018, 07:05:24 am
If true, nice to see they have not forgotten old customers.

As ever, a zoom appears as unconvincingly pointless to me as ever. The only one I bought was the Nikkor 24-70 and I dumped it as rapidly as possible: I hate avoidable bulk.

No, my life never did depend on having a zoom to hand, and I seriously doubt that anybody else's did either. Junk insurance policy for the lazy.

:-)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: 32BT on August 22, 2018, 07:23:51 am
If ugly only applied to that lens it wouldn't be all that bad. That camera may produce the very best pixels that the industry currently has to offer, but, boy, is that gizmo an easthetic horrorshow or what? Somebody here once mentioned that the best camera is the camera you actually want to pick up and take pictures with. Let's just say that I now realize why people are willing to spend the extra cash on a Leica.

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 22, 2018, 07:44:29 am
If ugly only applied to that lens it wouldn't be all that bad. That camera may produce the very best pixels that the industry currently has to offer, but, boy, is that gizmo an easthetic horrorshow or what? Somebody here once mentioned that the best camera is the camera you actually want to pick up and take pictures with. Let's just say that I now realize why people are willing to spend the extra cash on a Leica.

It goes to show that aesthetics is really a matter of taste.

I find it pretty appealing and the Nikon logo has nothing to do with that impression I can assure you.  ;D

In fact the first thought I had when I saw it was “this is what a usable Leica should be”. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: KLaban on August 22, 2018, 08:02:53 am
If ugly only applied to that lens it wouldn't be all that bad. That camera may produce the very best pixels that the industry currently has to offer, but, boy, is that gizmo an easthetic horrorshow or what? Somebody here once mentioned that the best camera is the camera you actually want to pick up and take pictures with. Let's just say that I now realize why people are willing to spend the extra cash on a Leica.

Reminds me of all the other cameras I wouldn't want to pick up.

;-)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 22, 2018, 08:14:40 am
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/22/nikon-d850-vs-nikon-z6-vs-nikon-z7-specifications-comparison.aspx/

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: 32BT on August 22, 2018, 09:39:48 am
It goes to show that aesthetics is really a matter of taste.

I find it pretty appealing and the Nikon logo has nothing to do with that impression I can assure you.  ;D

In fact the first thought I had when I saw it was “this is what a usable Leica should be”. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Of course, Bernard, if you come from an 850, it could be considered an improvement.... ;-)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 22, 2018, 09:52:25 am
Of course, Bernard, if you come from an 850, it could be considered an improvement.... ;-)

 ;D

Don't get me wrong, I love the look of a square block of polished steel, I just don't think it does such a good job as a camera.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: gkroeger on August 22, 2018, 10:24:48 am
I want to pick up a camera that feels good in my hand, has the controls I need where I can reach them, and produces the best image possible. I spend most of my time looking through it, not at it, so I don't really care what it looks like. That said, the N7 looks pretty much like any other reflex camera... true, the grip sticks up a bit, but if that makes it easier to grip, so be it.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: 32BT on August 22, 2018, 10:55:22 am
I want to pick up a camera that feels good in my hand, has the controls I need where I can reach them, and produces the best image possible. I spend most of my time looking through it, not at it, so I don't really care what it looks like. That said, the N7 looks pretty much like any other reflex camera... true, the grip sticks up a bit, but if that makes it easier to grip, so be it.

As photographers, we are visual artists, and as visual artists our task is none other than caring how something looks. See the conundrum?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on August 22, 2018, 11:25:31 am
Don't get too horny Bernard, but 5-axis IBIS and ISO64 (only on the Z7) seem to be confirmed. You can pre-order.

https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/22/nikon-d850-vs-nikon-z6-vs-nikon-z7-specifications-comparison.aspx/

(http://www.guillermoluijk.com/misc/nikonz.png)

Regards
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 22, 2018, 11:51:08 am
As photographers, we are visual artists, and as visual artists our task is none other than caring how something looks. See the conundrum?

+1

Some of the mirrorless cameras, Sony in particular, and now Nikon, look like designed by IKEA or LEGO. Do you need to assemble it first?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on August 22, 2018, 12:08:12 pm
Some of the mirrorless cameras, Sony in particular, and now Nikon, look like designed by IKEA or LEGO.

Oh yeah, while DSLR's have been sculpted by Michelangelo...

(https://http2.mlstatic.com/D_Q_NP_873229-MLA27035099020_032018-Q.jpg)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: KLaban on August 22, 2018, 12:16:43 pm
As photographers, we are visual artists, and as visual artists our task is none other than caring how something looks. See the conundrum?

Indeed.

As visual artists I wouldn't recommend anyone come shopping with my wife and I. It doesn't matter if it's an egg cup or a car, the process is just mind numbing. And don't even get me started on clothes: we're as bad/good as each other.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: fdisilvestro on August 22, 2018, 12:17:43 pm
I have seen many ugly photographers producing spectacular images.
At least on paper it looks as an amazing camera, so good that the only thing Nikon-haters can say is that it is ugly
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: KLaban on August 22, 2018, 12:19:37 pm
Believe me, this is not just Nikon...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: KLaban on August 22, 2018, 12:21:25 pm
I've also seen many ugly images made by beautiful photographers.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 22, 2018, 12:24:59 pm
And the new 24-70 looks like designed by Sigma  :P
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: fdisilvestro on August 22, 2018, 12:26:13 pm
I've also seen many ugly images made by beautiful photographers.

Well, it does not take much effort  :)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 22, 2018, 12:49:12 pm
Oh yeah, while DSLR's have been sculpted by Michelangelo...

(https://http2.mlstatic.com/D_Q_NP_873229-MLA27035099020_032018-Q.jpg)


Yes, sculpted, but not by Michelangelo... more like Henry Moore... no sharp edges ;)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Rob C on August 22, 2018, 01:05:20 pm
Sharp edges


Losing them was reason that the F2 was picked up before the F; I think that shutter went up to 1/2000th instead of the F's 1/1000th, but I very seldom found myself above 1/250th on either

These usually high speeds popular today seem to be the product of sensors being too damned fast and people exploring wide-open aperture photography, even when there's no logic to it.

Oh well, guess it's a fun thing to do...

:-)


P.S. Let nobody forget: Canon made the first melted Mars Bar bodies.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 22, 2018, 01:10:35 pm
... P.S. Let nobody forget: Canon made the first melted Mars Bar bodies.

 ;D
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: D Fuller on August 22, 2018, 03:09:08 pm
+1

Some of the mirrorless cameras, Sony in particular, and now Nikon, look like designed by IKEA or LEGO. Do you need to assemble it first?

Hmmm... But the Sony and Nikon look very little like each other.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BJL on August 22, 2018, 04:57:08 pm
As photographers, we are visual artists, and as visual artists our task is none other than caring how something looks. See the conundrum?
For some visual artists, attractive form follows function, so it is the ones shaped like a bar of soap—and about as easy to grip securely with a heavy lens attached—that are ugly.

Anyway, for my eyes it’s back to looking at the specs and hoping to look at sample images soon.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 22, 2018, 05:19:45 pm
One possible very bad news that they may only feature one memory card slot.

When I thought that only Phase One could still make such terrible design decisions. ;)

Other than that the specs look great. If AF performance is up to speed we have a great first FF mirrorless camera from Nikon.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Alex Waugh on August 22, 2018, 05:23:53 pm
One card slot - are they serious? Sure the chance of failure is extremely low but for most working photographers that isn't good enough. I find myself on 100k+ / day sets (digitech on the side) quite often and a card failure would probably ruin someones career if they weren't tethered.



Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 22, 2018, 05:26:14 pm
For some visual artists, attractive form follows function, so it is the ones shaped like a bar of soap—and about as easy to grip securely with a heavy lens attached—that are ugly.

This is my view as well.

I find as much beauty in a rhino as in a tiger.

The beauty in a camera shouldn’t be assessed as a static object but as dynamic extension of one’s arm, eye,  mind. It is the fluidity of the experience, the ability of the tool to just vanish and enable the achievements of one’s artistic goal that determines beauty for me.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 22, 2018, 05:31:51 pm
One card slot - are they serious? Sure the chance of failure is extremely low but for most working photographers that isn't good enough. I find myself on 100k+ / day sets (digitech on the side) quite often and a card failure would probably ruin someones career if they weren't tethered.

Yes...

Even the Nikon APS-C bodies in the D7000 series had two slots.

That was one major reason why I picked the H6D-100c over the IQ100...

If confirmed this may mean that I would only use a Z as a testing ground for mirrorless, meaning I would possibly only buy a Z6 with one lens as a go everywhere camera.

Now XQD cards are probably the most reliable (never had a failure), but still...

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Alex Waugh on August 22, 2018, 05:45:09 pm
Im hoping they put a second slot in the battery grip.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 22, 2018, 05:54:55 pm
Im hoping they put a second slot in the battery grip.

I am not sure that adding a high speed databus connection btwn the body and the grip would be such a good design.

Now that would ensure that 3rd party grips aren’t easily released... ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Alex Waugh on August 22, 2018, 06:04:50 pm
I am not sure that adding a high speed databus connection btwn the body and the grip would be such a good design.

Now that would ensure that 3rd party grips aren’t easily released... ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

You are correct I did not even think of the data requirements going though the grip. I think we'll get 2 slots - all shall be revealed in a few hours anyway.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 22, 2018, 08:01:12 pm
Nikonrumors is now back pedaling a bit on this lack of double memory slots, we shall see in 4 hours. ;)

This picture seem to hint at the fact that there is only an XQD slot, but there may be a SD hidden behind it.

https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/22/more-nikon-z6-leaks-new-specs-pictures.aspx/

On the D850 the SD slot only takes 5 mm extra next to the XQD.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: shadowblade on August 22, 2018, 08:30:52 pm
https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/first-real-world-image-of-the-nikon-z-leaked-plus-specs-and-size-comparison-with-other-mirrorless-cameras/ (https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/first-real-world-image-of-the-nikon-z-leaked-plus-specs-and-size-comparison-with-other-mirrorless-cameras/)

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 22, 2018, 08:57:16 pm
  • I doubt Nikon would be so monumentally stupid as to give these cameras one card slot only.

I hope that you are right.

I would be incredibly ironic to see Nikon over-achieve on all the super challenging technological aspects you have been highlighting for weeks in terms of AF, sensor, weight, size, heat, ability to release 2 cameras,... to see them fail on this super basic aspect that is only a marketing decision.  ;D

Now, Nikon may think that the level of performance of their camera is so high (in particular on the AF front) that buyers will be able to overcome this limitation with limited actual practical impact. And this may be paving the way for upcoming Z8/Z9 cameras with higher megapixels and speed that would have double slots.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: eronald on August 22, 2018, 09:37:10 pm
There's an interesting new/old comparison photo (or mockup?) below, the Nikon mount looks huge, enough for 44x33 MF, or maybe in-body stabilisation for video..

https://www.sonyalpharumors.com
Edmund
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: DP on August 22, 2018, 10:38:34 pm
the Nikon mount looks huge, enough for 44x33 MF
mount yes, but what about contact pins above sensor inside the chamber for communication w/ lenses - are you sure they will allow such sensor ?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BJL on August 22, 2018, 11:09:28 pm
There's an interesting new/old comparison photo (or mockup?) below, the Nikon mount looks huge, enough for 44x33 MF, or maybe in-body stabilisation for video..

https://www.sonyalpharumors.com
Edmund
Bigger than Sony’s APS-C 46mm, but it looks well under 55mm, so not nearly big enough to work with the 55mm diagonal of 44x33mm sensors.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 22, 2018, 11:56:00 pm
https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/22/nikon-z-and-nikkor-500mm-f-5-6-lens-japanese-pricing.aspx/

Prices in Japan are clearly targeting the upper end segment.

Nikon is obviously very confident about the level of performance of these bodies... it doesn't look like they have targeted the a7rIII, but more the a7rIV. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 23, 2018, 12:28:52 am
Live from Nikon event:
- Z mount inner diameter is 55mm, flange distance is 16mm
-> best future potential

- z7: 45.7 mp, 493 focus points (phase + contrast), end of Sept availability, open price, est retail 440,000 Japanese Yen incl tax
- z6: 24.5 mp, ISO 100-51200, 12 fps, end of Nov availability, est retail 270,000 Japanese Yen incl tax

shared features: fully weatherproof, expeed 6 (new middle range sharpening), EVF (aspherical glass used, quad-VGA EVF, 3.6 mp), IBIS (5 axis, 5 stop), FF 4K 30p, FF HD 120, 10 bits NLOG HMDI output, lenses with quiter AF and little focus breathing, smooth focus, aperture change, battery pack available, new lens production quality/tolerances, full compatibility with existing flashes.

All lenses announced and planned belong to a new S line (highest quality, seems to correspond to Canon L)
- 3 lenses as rumored (24-70 f4, 35mm f1.8, 50mm f1.8), said to be amazing performers at full aperture from closeup to infinity, very little CA (including axial), great corner performance, great bokeh, multi-focus systems,  great AF performance
- 58mm f0.95 Noct under developement - super sharp and great bokeh
- 5 lenses in 2019 (20mm f1.8, 85mm f1.8, 24-70 f2.8, 70-200 f2.8, 14-30 f4)
- 3+ lenses in 2020 (50mm f1.2 - first of a new f1.2 line, 24mm f1.8, 14-24mm f2.8)

Prices/releases dates of lenses in Japan:
- 24-70: end of Sept, suggested retail 136,000 Yen excl tax
- 35mm f1.8: end of Sept, suggested retail 114,000 Yen excl tax
- 50mm f1.8: end of Oct, suggested retail 83,000 Yen excl tax
- mount f->Z: end of Sept, suggested retail, 36,000 Yen excl tax

Unfortunately, the single card slot is confirmed as well as the lack of eye AF feature (even if face detection AF is said to be very effective). These 2 may be dealbreakers for many potential buyers.

Battery life is reported to be good from DPreview, with 1,600 images per battery charge in real world usage.

Cheers,
Bernard 
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Alex Waugh on August 23, 2018, 12:57:36 am
Terrible presentation from Nikon ambassadors but what can you expect. I thought the zoom was a good size but im not a fan of the double telescope, 1k for 1.8 lenses is steep.

Only things I want to know about are EVF quality, availability of grip and card slots. Looks like I might be sticking with SLRs for a while but maybe that will change when I hold one.

Way less sexy than a D850 also.

EDIT
Raw specs - https://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/mirrorless/z_7/spec.htm

1/200 sync
XQD only (1 slot?)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: jeremyrh on August 23, 2018, 01:41:48 am
So what happens if Sony stop making XQD cards....?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on August 23, 2018, 01:49:02 am
As a Sony user my 2c. I think it looks OK. Never been a huge fan of the melted cheese styling of the big DSLR’s. I don’t think the looks are such a big deal anyway quite honestly and I don’t find the camera actually offensive.

Single card slot doesn’t bother me. I shoot a lot and I have never had a SD card fail and these new cards are reported even more stable. CF were a lot more wobbly. Anyway all my commercial stuff is shot therhered. I don’t do weddings.

The 24 to 70 F4 would be a buy for me. Wouldn’t go near the very fast primes. Not my style.

I think all round a pretty solid looking entry into FF mirrorless. Doesn’t tempt me to swop to Nikon but if I was just entering the mirrorless field this would be worth a look for me. If it had been around two years ago there is a strong chance I would have bought this. I had to overcome some pretty strong prejudices initially to go Sony.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 23, 2018, 02:29:47 am
So what happens if Sony stop making XQD cards....?

- Lexar is supposed to restart manufacturing of XQD cards,
- Delkin is making some too,
- Nikon is now selling some too.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: davidgp on August 23, 2018, 02:35:01 am
For me here... the most interesting announcement from Nikon is the lens roadmap... it shows a clear compromise with the new mount system, for any person that has doubts about the future of a new lens mount system. Because if you relay in AF, you will want to go native at some point...

In terms of features of the cameras, Looking at the sheet, I don’t see something that is that much stronger or weaker than the competition, but I suppose we will need to wait to autumn for some independent review and analysis of the cameras.

Looks like Nikon went for video market also, something they didn’t took that seriously in the F mount...

My two cents...


http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: davidgp on August 23, 2018, 02:38:04 am
So what happens if Sony stop making XQD cards....?

Nothing, XQD is a format proposed by Sony, Nikon and SanDisk... part now of the CompactFlash association... and several manufacturers announcing cards now...


http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: alatreille on August 23, 2018, 02:47:35 am
Can we mount canon lenses on these?

Sent from my LG-H873 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 23, 2018, 02:52:31 am
Can we mount canon lenses on these?

Most certainly, although it will remain to be seen how they behave AF wise.

You should even be able to mount Sony mirrorless lenses on this. The mount is much larger with a more shallow flange distance, it should be enough to build a adapter. Since the Sony AF protocol is public, the adapter manufacturers will just need to reverse engineer the Nikon Z/S protocol.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: alan_b on August 23, 2018, 03:10:38 am
So what happens if Sony stop making XQD cards....?

Apparently CFexpress cards will also work down the road with a firmware update.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Alex Waugh on August 23, 2018, 03:18:01 am
I would like to know if they have different aspect modes. A proper 4x5 would be lovely. I would also like information about the grip and am a bit perplexed it wasn't in the roadmap. I have pre-ordered without a deposit requirement from my local dealer, I'll see what the next few weeks brings.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: davidgp on August 23, 2018, 04:03:31 am
Nice coverage in DPReview:

- Z 7 first impressions - https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-z7-first-impressions-review
- Z 7 impressions: https://www.dpreview.com/articles/4160692612/nikon-z7-what-you-need-to-know-about-nikon-s-first-mirrorless-full-frame-ilc
- Z 7 with adapted lenses: https://www.dpreview.com/articles/0039746111/what-s-the-nikon-z-like-with-adapted-lenses?slide=9
- Hands on with Z lenses: https://www.dpreview.com/articles/1697483390/hands-on-with-nikon-s-three-z-series-lenses

P.D.: not sure who in Nikon marketing thought about the name strategy... but it looks ugly that white space between the Z and model number of the camera...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: davidgp on August 23, 2018, 04:09:28 am
They also have a long video https://youtu.be/DrWv6D3v95g


http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 23, 2018, 05:25:46 am
One slightly disappointing piece of information I have just come across I was not aware of is that the 58mm f0.95 appears to be a manual focus lens.

I have been working without issues with with my Otus glass so far, so this can be done, and will be much easier with an EVF, but it is nonetheless a bit sad that the new AF isn't compatible with super bright glass.

I also find it misguiding that nothing in the lens naming reveals this aspect.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 23, 2018, 05:39:13 am
Nikon Z, my current takeways.

Positive:
- what may be the most future proof mount ever introduced
- perfect body size/weight with an ergonomics that is appealing for Nikon users
- same of better image quality as the D850
- very solid first entry in the high end mirrorless world
- the basics seem to be well implemented, from EVF, to AF, to F mount adapter
- the quality of the lenses promises to be outstanding
- Lens roadmap published with many appealing lenses
- much better video specs (from AF to quality of files)
- only a month from annoucment to availability of first producs, this isn't a paperware announcment
- silent shooting
- sensor stabilization
- weather sealing
- current batteries can be used and USB charging
- LCD with good resolution

Negative:
- only one memory card slot
- no eye AF (we will need to see how good the face AF is)
- some physical controls may be missing, will need to see how easy the function buttons/User setting will be able to compensate - the only one that worries me is AF modes control
- non open mount will complicate delivery of adapters
- prices a bit on the high side (more so in Japan than in the US)
- the 58mm f0.95 is MF only, but then again we don't know if it even possible technologically to AF such a design
- buffer a bit shallow but should be fine for non action shooting

Overall, as a Nikon user heavily invested in F mount lenses, I find the Z7 an appealing proposition, a bit more so that the Sony a7rIII. I would probably look at things differently without my F mount lenses.

The only aspect I am really worried about in fact is the lack of double memory slot. This is in a context where my XQD cards have been 100% reliable till now.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: davidgp on August 23, 2018, 06:12:31 am
Nikon Z, my current takeways.

Positive:
- what may be the most future proof mount ever introduced
- perfect body size/weight with an ergonomics that is appealing for Nikon users
- same of better image quality as the D850
- very solid first entry in the high end mirrorless world
- the basics seem to be well implemented, from EVF, to AF, to F mount adapter
- the quality of the lenses promises to be outstanding
- Lens roadmap published with many appealing lenses
- much better video specs (from AF to quality of files)
- only a month from annoucment to availability of first producs, this isn't a paperware announcment

Negative:
- only one memory card slot
- no eye AF (we will need to see how good the face AF is)
- some physical controls may be missing, will need to see how easy the function buttons/User setting will be able to compensate - the only one that worries me is AF modes control
- non open mount will complicate delivery of adapters
- prices a bit on the high side (more so in Japan than in the US)
- the 58mm f0.95 is AF only, but then again we don't know if it even possible technologically to AF such a design
- buffer a bit shallow but should be fine for non action shooting

Overall, as a Nikon user heavily invested in F mount lenses, I find the Z7 an appealing proposition, a bit more so that the Sony a7rIII. I would probably look at things differently without my F mount lenses.

The only aspect I am really worried about in fact is the lack of double memory slot. This is in a context where my XQD cards have been 100% reliable till now.

Hi Bernard,

More or less I agree with you. I saw in DPReview that they complained a bit about the lacking of 3D Tracking and some of the way the AF configuration operates, but the latter I assume that it could be improved in future firmware releases. The same goes for Eye AF, if the processor in the Z cameras can handle it, it can be added later on via firmware update.

From a video point of view I will add a positive and a negative to your list:

- Positive: 10 bit HDMI output, interesting for people that does color grading.
- Negative: In FF 4k mode, they are doing line skipping, so less image quality. If you want the best quality you need to record in DX/Super 35mm that does a pixel by pixel reading. More sharper image.

Yes, if I had a lot of F lenses, my route will be the Nikon system for sure, the Sony system will not make sense at all. With that roadmap of lenses looks like Nikon is not thinking this just like an exercise to see how many user will be interested in this kind of system. My position is different, having switch from Canon to Sony in the last two years, now I have an investment in cameras and lenses... so I will stick with Sony for the next years (in the future, who knows?).

P.D.: I suppose you wanted to say "the 58mm f0.95 is MF only"

Regards,

David
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 23, 2018, 06:17:27 am
P.D.: I suppose you wanted to say "the 58mm f0.95 is MF only"

Hi David,

Yes, thanks, corrected.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: 32BT on August 23, 2018, 06:49:36 am
Would have liked to see the 750 buttonplacement (lefthand thumb for chimping) with less clutter on the righthand side.

What do we make of a 60hz vf refreshrate for say a z6 in eventsetting?
Or the cipa rating of 330 in a similar setting? Maybe yes as a silent second body?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: davidgp on August 23, 2018, 07:01:22 am
I correct myself... looks like Z 6 is not doing line skipping in FF mode...

Hi Bernard,

More or less I agree with you. I saw in DPReview that they complained a bit about the lacking of 3D Tracking and some of the way the AF configuration operates, but the latter I assume that it could be improved in future firmware releases. The same goes for Eye AF, if the processor in the Z cameras can handle it, it can be added later on via firmware update.

From a video point of view I will add a positive and a negative to your list:

- Positive: 10 bit HDMI output, interesting for people that does color grading.
- Negative: In FF 4k mode, they are doing line skipping, so less image quality. If you want the best quality you need to record in DX/Super 35mm that does a pixel by pixel reading. More sharper image.

Yes, if I had a lot of F lenses, my route will be the Nikon system for sure, the Sony system will not make sense at all. With that roadmap of lenses looks like Nikon is not thinking this just like an exercise to see how many user will be interested in this kind of system. My position is different, having switch from Canon to Sony in the last two years, now I have an investment in cameras and lenses... so I will stick with Sony for the next years (in the future, who knows?).

P.D.: I suppose you wanted to say "the 58mm f0.95 is MF only"

Regards,

David



http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: mcbroomf on August 23, 2018, 07:58:06 am
Most certainly, although it will remain to be seen how they behave AF wise.

You should even be able to mount Sony mirrorless lenses on this. The mount is much larger with a more shallow flange distance, it should be enough to build a adapter. Since the Sony AF protocol is public, the adapter manufacturers will just need to reverse engineer the Nikon Z/S protocol.

Cheers,
Bernard

I'm not so sure that a Sony FE - Nion Z mount adapter is feasible.  With the Sony flange distance of 18mm and Nikon 16mm the adapter can only be 2mm thick.  It will have to support a solid backing to both sets of contacts and a CPU for AF and aperture control.  Obviously no space for that inside like the Metabones Canon _Sony so it will have to hang off the bottom, to only 2mm of metal.  I just don't see it.  A completely dumb adapter could be made like the Leica M - Sony but I see no purpose to use lenses like that.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 23, 2018, 08:00:33 am
Indeed, 2mm isn’t enough with the same diameter, but the much larger diameter may make something possoble.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: davidgp on August 23, 2018, 08:12:36 am
I'm not so sure that a Sony FE - Nion Z mount adapter is feasible.  With the Sony flange distance of 18mm and Nikon 16mm the adapter can only be 2mm thick.  It will have to support a solid backing to both sets of contacts and a CPU for AF and aperture control.  Obviously no space for that inside like the Metabones Canon _Sony so it will have to hang off the bottom, to only 2mm of metal.  I just don't see it.  A completely dumb adapter could be made like the Leica M - Sony but I see no purpose to use lenses like that.

Without electronics it will only be useful if you want to adapt Zeiss Loxia lens or Voigtlander ones, or any other complete manual one. E system is fully electronic. To focus the lens (it is focus by wire) or change aperture you need the electronics. And, anyway, I will expect that Zeiss creates Loxia equivalentes to Z mount (no Batis ones) and the rest of manual focus lenses like Voitglander or Laowa to port their designs to the system...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: mcbroomf on August 23, 2018, 08:47:09 am
Without electronics it will only be useful if you want to adapt Zeiss Loxia lens or Voigtlander ones, or any other complete manual one. E system is fully electronic. To focus the lens (it is focus by wire) or change aperture you need the electronics. And, anyway, I will expect that Zeiss creates Loxia equivalentes to Z mount (no Batis ones) and the rest of manual focus lenses like Voitglander or Laowa to port their designs to the system...

That's a good point about Loxia and VC lenses but I agree with you that Zeiss and Voigtlander will likely bring out NZ versions pretty quickly once they've figured out the NZ protocol (to pass EXIF data).  I think there will be a market for Leica M - NZ and it will be interesting to see the 1st tests and find out if the Leica WA lenses suffer from edge and corner smearing as they do on the Sony due to the cover glass.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: davidgp on August 23, 2018, 08:55:45 am
That's a good point about Loxia and VC lenses but I agree with you that Zeiss and Voigtlander will likely bring out NZ versions pretty quickly once they've figured out the NZ protocol (to pass EXIF data).  I think there will be a market for Leica M - NZ and it will be interesting to see the 1st tests and find out if the Leica WA lenses suffer from edge and corner smearing as they do on the Sony due to the cover glass.

I will not keep my hopes up for that. Nikon cover glass in the latests models is more or less more close to Sony sensor width than Leica one: https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2014/06/sensor-stack-thickness-when-does-it-matter/ . If they want to keep less problems using adapted F lenses in Z mount, I don't think they will have a very thin sensor layer like Leica likes to use.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: KLaban on August 23, 2018, 09:59:10 am
That's a good point about Loxia and VC lenses but I agree with you that Zeiss and Voigtlander will likely bring out NZ versions pretty quickly once they've figured out the NZ protocol (to pass EXIF data).  I think there will be a market for Leica M - NZ and it will be interesting to see the 1st tests and find out if the Leica WA lenses suffer from edge and corner smearing as they do on the Sony due to the cover glass.

There may well be a market for that adaptor, but I wouldn't be banking on the Leica lenses behaving themselves with the Nikon sensor stack.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: mcbroomf on August 23, 2018, 10:33:45 am
Could well be.  In the early Sony FF days people were desperately looking for good Leica - Sony matches, but now that Zeiss and VC have started reformulating their glass for the Sony sensor cover thickness it's probably a moot point.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Kevin Raber on August 23, 2018, 10:57:27 am
We have both cameras and lenses coming when delivery starts and will report on them when they arrive.  The new Z cameras look interesting and the mirrorless market is getting to be more fun.  I am not at the NYC event this week since I am running a workshop but will have one of the first production units of each camera when they ship.  We'll also do an On The Rocks video with the camera.  Surprised about the one card slot.  Also, really interested on how fast the camera focuses with the adapter.  We have one of those coming also. 

Now, it's Canon's turn. 
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: cgarnerhome on August 23, 2018, 12:28:38 pm
Being use to the Nikon interface from using my D800 it's an easy decision for me, assuming the image quality holds up.  I have tried the Sony but I don't like the user interface.  The more choices the better for all of us.  Being a Phase user I hope they have a mirrorless system in the works.  I'm getting to old to lug all this heavy equipment around :)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: shadowblade on August 23, 2018, 12:37:49 pm
Not particularly impressed with Nikon's announcements today. They look like they're aimed at weaning existing Nikon shooters off SLR and onto mirrorless, as opposed to attracting outsiders to the new system. Individually, each item looks decent enough (with certain weaknesses in the body specs), but, taken as a whole, they don't provide a compelling reason for those not already shooting Nikon to move to the Z-mount, nor a particularly strong reason for those not heavily invested in F-mount to move to Z-mount rather than moving to Sony, or waiting to see what Canon has to offer.

With the bodies themselves:

With the system:

Overall, I'm not sure what Nikon has achieved here. They either needed to smash it out of the park for the pros with a top-tier, full-featured body (with two card slots) and a lens lineup ready for pro use (even if it's just two or three core fast zooms) at time of launch, or to try to undercut the A7III with a camera designed for new users to full-frame, locking them into the Nikon framework and Z-mount while building up their lineup for pro use later. They haven't really done either - instead, they seem to have done something in between.

Assuming that people are logical and go for whichever system will benefit them most and give them the most bang for buck, rather than having an unhealthy attraction to brand name and marketing alone, this is how it stands at the moment:

If you already own a lot of high-end F-mount lenses - stick with the D850 or D5. Why would you take a bunch of good lenses that work perfectly well on Nikon SLRs and put them on a system that's more expensive (compared with the D850), where you have to use an adapter, with less battery life, with a single card slot, and where they probably wont' autofocus as well? It's not as if D850s and D5s are going to disappear off the shelf tomorrow. This lot aren't moving to mirrorless with this generation, although they will likely gradually leak across as fewer and fewer F-mount lenses and bodies get released.

If you own one or two high-end F-mount lenses - are you happy with SLR, or do you have a particular reason to go for mirrorless? If SLR is serving you well, why not stick with it for another generation or so, until both bodies and lenses become outdated? If you particularly want to move to mirrorless (for whatever reason), are you so wedded to Nikon that you must move to Z-mount and use your existing lenses with an adapter and reduced performance, or would you be better off selling your current lenses and moving to E-mount and the equivalent lenes there (or waiting another two years for Nikon to release suitable native Z-mount lenses)? In this category, they're all acceptable options.

If you shoot Canon full-frame - you really have no reason to move to Z-mount at the moment. Maybe in a generation's time, as your lenses age out and Z-mount becomes more viable, with more lens options, and it becomes clearer where Nikon and Canon are going with mirrorless, but, for now, sticking with Canon SLR seems like the most sensible choice if you're in no hurry to move, or moving to Sony (with good support for Canon lenses via Metabones adapters, and lots of native lens choices) if you particularly want to move to mirrorless or aren't happy with Canon's body and sensor offerings.

If you don't currently shoot full-frame at all - the Z6, with some compact lenses, might be interesting if the price is right, if you don't need the bigger/faster/longer lenses right away and are prepared to build up a lens collection over time. Otherwise, there's a whole Sony ecosystem out there, with lenses available for any budget and almost any shooting style.

So, at present, it looks much more interesting for existing Nikon users looking for a second, compact body than for anyone not already using the Nikon system. This will likely change over time, as the Z-mount lineup grows, but, right now, it doesn't look like it will challenge E-mount for another generation or so, and will only grow market share by slowly weaning F-mount users away from SLR, rather than pulling people away from E-mount.

It will be interesting to see what Canon does. If they release a similarly-performing full-frame mirrorless body, with dual card slots and 24-70 and 70-200 f/2.8 lenses at the outset, Z mount will struggle.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: davidgp on August 23, 2018, 02:40:26 pm
More info about Z6 and lenses: https://www.dpreview.com/articles/0243883882/a-closer-look-at-nikon-s-new-z-6-and-future-z-mount-lenses

The new 50mm 0.95 looks like it will come with a high price tag: https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/the-bokeh-king-noct-58mm-f-095-lens-will-cost-about-6000/
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 23, 2018, 02:48:30 pm
... The new 50mm 0.95 looks like it will come with a high price tag: https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/the-bokeh-king-noct-58mm-f-095-lens-will-cost-about-6000/

With non-phone cameras losing popularity contest, they aim for the luxury market. The proverbial dentists and lawyers.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: hexx on August 23, 2018, 03:01:39 pm
@shadowblade - seems like you’re completely wrong calling the 2 primes available at launch slow and midrange. There’s already a review of 35/1.8 and photographer’s jaw dropped (his own words). You can also look at specs and charts yourself.

Releasing 24-70/4 lens as part of the system is a good move as it’s a kit lens and as a part of kit it’s offered with good discount. 2.8 zooms will be as large as current versions so there’s no need to rush.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Telecaster on August 23, 2018, 03:05:34 pm
I never had an SD card fail in a camera (though one blew up years ago while hooked up to a laptop) until I got a camera with two SD slots.  ;D  Even then it was the camera's rather than the card's fault.

From where I sit the new Nikon thing is a big meh. The last thing I'm interested in is another proprietary mount. But let's see how quickly (and well) they turn it into a proper system.

-Dave-
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: 32BT on August 23, 2018, 03:10:20 pm
The new 50mm 0.95 looks like it will come with a high price tag: https://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/the-bokeh-king-noct-58mm-f-095-lens-will-cost-about-6000/

Is it focus-by-wire? And if so, how does one do that?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: D Fuller on August 23, 2018, 03:35:25 pm
I never had an SD card fail in a camera (though one blew up years ago while hooked up to a laptop) until I got a camera with two SD slots.  ;D  Even then it was the camera's rather than the card's fault.

From where I sit the new Nikon thing is a big meh. The last thing I'm interested in is another proprietary mount. But let's see how quickly (and well) they turn it into a proper system.

-Dave-

But aren't all lens mounts proprietary? How do you get around that?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 23, 2018, 03:45:00 pm
With non-phone cameras losing popularity contest, they aim for the luxury market. The proverbial dentists and lawyers.

How could such a lens be cheap?

It is likely to beat the Otus while being 2 stops brighter.

The whole drama about the memory slot is such a pity because it casts a huge negative shadow on what is likely to be the best image quality system in existence in the 35mm world.

Let’s not underestimate Nikon on their core strenghts, these lenses will be totally outstanding while remaining compact and light (except for the statement Noct obviously but even that lens may not be much larger than an Otus 55mm f1.4 although it is 2 stops brighter). That may matter a lot for many photographers.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Telecaster on August 23, 2018, 04:05:36 pm
But aren't all lens mounts proprietary? How do you get around that?

Some are moreso than others. I was hoping Nikon would publish their mount specs. "Here's how it works, folks…have at it!" A system where 3rd party lens makers wouldn't have to reverse engineer would interest me. It would also signal an intent to compete hard right outta the gate.

-Dave-
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: hubell on August 23, 2018, 06:17:19 pm
There is one potentially major feature of the new Z7 system that interests me. The initial lens lineup for the Z7 consists of three lenses that appear to be configured to be relatively slow by the standards of those who always clamor for FAST lenses (f/4 for the zoom and f/1.8 for the primes) and yet purport to provide the very highest level of optical quality AND a small, light form factor. Sony started out this way when it released the first A7R. There was a 55mm f/1.8, which is a fabulous lens and quite small. There was also a 35mm f/2.8 lens that was excellent and tiny. Then, there was a 24-70 f/4 zoom that was very compact but with just OK optical quality. Since then, Sony has segmented the lens lineup into two basic categories. Big, heavy, fast, expensive lenses that purport to be the top of the line in optical quality. And smaller, lighter, slower lenses that are less good but are cheaper for the price conscious. Reading the Z7 lens roadmap, I think I like what it appears Nikon may be doing. A line of slower but compact lenses (f/1.8 primes and f/4 zooms) that are still of top quality and are not designed to be the cheap options, and then a line of fast primes (f/1.4 and f/.095) and fast f/2.8 zooms  that are big, heavy, somewhat more expensive and of excellent optical quality. Will Nikon be the first to recognize that there is a niche of serious photographers at the high end of the market out there who will pay MORE for a slower prime or zoom if it is smaller and lighter AND the quality matches the price?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: cgarnerhome on August 23, 2018, 06:41:02 pm
Will Nikon be the first to recognize that there is a niche of serious photographers at the high end of the market out there who will pay MORE for a slower prime or zoom if it is smaller and lighter AND the quality matches the price?

+1
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 23, 2018, 07:14:52 pm
Yes, image quality is the core value here and I believe that you are totally correct in your understanding of the direction Nikon is taking.

The DSLR series of f1.8 Nikon lenses is already outstanding and it appears that the S line is even better.

There are probably going to be super compact lenses added later that may not belong to the S series, but for now all the lenses announced do. This says a lot about the focus of Nikon and they can be trusted on this!

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Chris Kern on August 23, 2018, 07:17:41 pm
I moved on to smaller Fujis several years ago—my D800E spends almost all its time on a shelf—and I certainly can't claim any expertise in marketing.  But I don't understand why Nikon didn't bundle an F-mount adapter with the Z-series bodies, and absorb the manufacturing and distribution cost.  Or at the very least, offer a one-per-purchaser coupon that could be redeemed for an adapter from a retail outlet at Nikon's expense.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 23, 2018, 07:23:47 pm
Bernard, your penchant for superlatives when it comes to Nikon is approaching Triump’s (for things he likes) :D
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: HSakols on August 23, 2018, 07:34:36 pm
This is a strange time as a Nikon owner. Is this the beginning of the end of the F mount?  I was surprised to see in their roadmap of the future, a 20mm 1.8 prime Z mount.  They just recently came out with the F mount version.  Other than for long telephoto lenses why would Nikon ever make another F mount lens?  Is the D850 the last of the pro DSLR?  Then again can they really survive in the mirrorless market?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: gkroeger on August 23, 2018, 07:35:30 pm
Will Nikon be the first to recognize that there is a niche of serious photographers at the high end of the market out there who will pay MORE for a slower prime or zoom if it is smaller and lighter AND the quality matches the price?

+2
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 23, 2018, 07:37:11 pm
This is a strange time as a Nikon owner. Is this the beginning of the end of the F mount?  I was surprised to see in their roadmap of the future, a 20mm 1.8 prime Z mount.  They just recently came out with the F mount version.  Other than for long telephoto lenses why would Nikon ever make another F mount lens?  Is the D850 the last of the pro DSLR?  Then again can they really survive in the mirrorless market?

My view is that they have a pretty good F mount line up, and will probably continue to update some key lenses, but the focus moving forward is definitely going to be Z.

I am not sure why they wouldn't be able to survive in the mirrorless world. They have just come up with 2 bodies that are overall very close, if not better than the 3rd generation of Sony bodies at competitive pricing levels with a more future proof mount. Not sure what you are worried about?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on August 23, 2018, 07:39:47 pm
Bernard, your penchant for superlatives when it comes to Nikon is approaching Triump’s (for things he likes) :D
Political comments are supposed to be banned but I doubt Jeremy is reading this thread.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: HSakols on August 23, 2018, 08:00:06 pm
Quote
Political comments are supposed to be banned but I doubt Jeremy is reading this thread.

Thankfully things that are true aren't always true  ;D
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: shadowblade on August 23, 2018, 08:53:37 pm
@shadowblade - seems like you’re completely wrong calling the 2 primes available at launch slow and midrange. There’s already a review of 35/1.8 and photographer’s jaw dropped (his own words). You can also look at specs and charts yourself.

Releasing 24-70/4 lens as part of the system is a good move as it’s a kit lens and as a part of kit it’s offered with good discount. 2.8 zooms will be as large as current versions so there’s no need to rush.

I said slow, not midrange.

Regardless of their optical quality, there is a big role 35mm and 50mm lenses in the f/1.2-1.4 aperture range which a f/1.8 simply can't fill, no matter how sharp it is. Leica's Summicron lenses might be sharper, but there are a lot of applications where you just want the increased background blur of the Summilux. These lenses are Nikon's Summicrons.

In another sense, they're a bit like the Zeiss Batis 135/2.8. A sharp lens and solid optical performer, but just not fast enough for a lot of pro use - not when everyone else offers a 135/2 or 135/1.8. These potential buyers are waiting for the faster lens.

How could such a lens be cheap?

It is likely to beat the Otus while being 2 stops brighter.

No it's not.

The extreme geometries and optical design required for such fast lenses make them expensive and difficult to manufacture, as well as limiting their optical performance compared to less-extreme lenses.

Leica's Noctilux lenses are horrendously expensive. They're also just about the softest lenses in Leica's lineup. They're expensive because they're hard to design, hard to make and hard to sell profitably in large numbers.

I am not sure why they wouldn't be able to survive in the mirrorless world. They have just come up with 2 bodies that are overall very close, if not better than the 3rd generation of Sony bodies at competitive pricing levels with a more future proof mount. Not sure what you are worried about?

One. Card. Slot.

That alone takes it out of 'very close' contention. Many pros, and any others similarly interested in not risking loss of photos, simply won't consider them.

Other than that, the Z7 is pretty much a mirrorless D850, which itself is pretty much an A7r3 with a mirror. So I'd expect their performance to be pretty similar, give or take a few features on each side (eye focus, better weather sealing, pixel shift, etc.).

The position of the Z6 depends on its price. If it's cheaper than the A7III, it would make for a very good introductory full-frame camera, with a 24-70/4 kit lens. If it's priced significantly higher, it will struggle against the A9 and A7r3.

No doubt the single card issue will be fixed at some future point. But the next generation is almost certainly at least two years away, and will be competing against next-generation Sonys. Even now, these are new cameras competing against an almost one-year-old product, a third of the way into its life cycle - you'd expect them to be better.

The mount isn't really more future-proof - just bigger. It's still not big enough for a medium format sensor (technically, you could just fit a 33x44mm sensor behind a 55mm throat, but that leaves very little margin for lens design). And, if you can fit a 400/2.8, 600/4 or Leica Noctilux lens onto a Sony E via an adapter without edge clipping or major vignetting - and you clearly can, since many people have been doing exactly that over the past five years - then you can equally design such lenses native to the E-mount.
Title: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in September 2018
Post by: BJL on August 23, 2018, 08:56:16 pm
Live from Nikon event:
- Z mount inner diameter is 55mm, flange distance is 16mm
Bernard, you clearly win on measuring from that photo; can I claim a tie for 55mm falling between my too low estimates and your earlier too high ones?!

A few random thoughts:
- The PCIe-based XQD seems to have won over the SATA-based CFast; the next generation CFexpress is essentially an evolution of XQD, with compatibility possible through firmware upgrades.

- I like Nikon's lens approach. It is clearly impractical to launch a full range of high quality lenses in a new mount and instantly please every category of user, so it seems wise to initially target those who care a bit more about about a reasonably light hand-holdable kit over maximum possible speed — and then have an adaptor and a solid road map with the classic f/2.8 zooms and some fast primes. And with the very high usable ISO speeds these days, I am a fan of the idea of mid-speed f/4 zoom lenses that exploit the higher minimum f-stop to be excellently corrected.

- As I said before, the fact that Canon's late arriving EOS-M system with limited native lens options is the best selling APS-C mirrorless system (in Japan at least) shows the market clout of factors like a brands overall reputation, user base and extensive retail presence, along with lots of good first party SLR lenses already in customers' hands and usable with a first party adapter can count for a lot. So I would not rule out Nikon Z competing very well against Sony E.


P. S. Folks, please update my inaccurate original subject line!
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 23, 2018, 09:05:33 pm
These potential buyers are waiting for the faster lens.

I wondering why I find these appealing then... and so did 3 other actual buyers here also. The only person who has commented otherwise so far is you who is clearly not a potential buyer. ;)

No it's not.

The extreme geometries and optical design required for such fast lenses make them expensive and difficult to manufacture, as well as limiting their optical performance compared to less-extreme lenses.

Leica's Noctilux lenses are horrendously expensive. They're also just about the softest lenses in Leica's lineup. They're expensive because they're hard to design, hard to make and hard to sell profitably in large numbers.

As far as I know, your comments are purely theoretical since no MTF charts have been published. I have never caught Nikon lying about the level of performance of their optics. It is the first time they speak with such confidence about a lens, I am 100% sure it is going to be amazing.

The recent 75mm f1.25 is probably the best Leica lens M there is. Technology progresses. The Nikon at 6,000 US$ is going to be seen as a total bargain among these super designs.

Overall, most of your Nikon Z forecast have proven wrong and mine have proven right. The odds seem pretty high that the track record extends to lenses too...  8)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Kirk_C on August 23, 2018, 09:07:53 pm
But I don't understand why Nikon didn't bundle an F-mount adapter with the Z-series bodies, and absorb the manufacturing and distribution cost.  Or at the very least, offer a one-per-purchaser coupon that could be redeemed for an adapter from a retail outlet at Nikon's expense.

Absorb the costs of bundling an adapter ? You mean build the cost into the sale of every camera to accommodate the maybe 1 in 10 purchasers who want one. That'll never happen.

Now some retailers do know how to compel you to buy that bundle at their discounted price. (https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1431753-REG/nikon_z6_mirrorless_digital_camera.html)

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 23, 2018, 09:08:05 pm
Bernard, you clearly win on measuring from that photo; can I claim a tie for 55mm falling between my too low estimates and your earlier too high ones?!

Yes, let's call it a tie. ;)

A few random thoughts:
- The PCIe-based XQD seems to have won over the SATA-based CFast; the next generation CFexpress is essentially an evolution of XQD, with compatibility possible through firmware upgrades.

- I like Nikon's lens approach. It is clearly impractical to launch a full range of high quality lenses in a new mount and instantly please every category of user, so it seems wise to initially target those who care a bit more about about a reasonably light hand-holdable kit over maximum possible speed — and then have an adaptor and a solid road map with the classic f/2.8 zooms and some fast primes. And with the very high usable ISO speeds these days, I am a fan of the idea of mid-speed f/4 zoom lenses that exploit the higher minimum f-stop to be excellently corrected.

- As I said before, the fact that Canon's late arriving EOS-M system with limited native lens options is the best selling APS-C mirrorless system (in Japan at least) shows the market clout of factors like a brands overall reputation, user base and extensive retail presence, along with lots of good first party SLR lenses already in customers' hands and usable with a first party adapter can count for a lot. So I would not rule out Nikon Z competing very well against Sony E.

P. S. Folks, please update my inaccurate original subject line!

I am overall pretty optimistic also.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in September 2018
Post by: Christopher Sanderson on August 23, 2018, 09:10:58 pm
...  update my inaccurate original subject line!
You can modify your original post - including the subject.  :)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 23, 2018, 09:12:07 pm
Absorb the costs of bundling an adapter ? You mean build the cost into the sale of every camera to accommodate the maybe 1 in 10 purchasers who want one. That'll never happen.

In fact they do that to an extend. There is an official Nikon kit bundling the adapter that ends up being 50% discounted.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: shadowblade on August 23, 2018, 09:19:21 pm
I wondering why I find these appealing then... and so did 3 other actual buyers here also. The only person who has commented otherwise so far is you who is clearly not a potential buyer. ;)

Which is clearly representative of the bulk of customers - the key markets of wedding/event photographers in particular.

If this thread - or even this forum - were representative, then Canon wouldn't exist as a camera company.

Quote
As far as I know, your comments are purely theoretical since no MTF charts have been published. I have never caught Nikon lying about the level of performance of their optics. It is the first time they speak with such confidence about a lens, I am 100% sure it is going to be amazing.

All I've seen from Nikon so far is a big pile of marketing-speak. Nikon, Canon and Sony all say the same things every single time they release a body or lens, whether it's a 400/2.8 or a Canon Rebel. And, every single time, it's worth ignoring, until the technical data and tests come out.

Quote
Overall, most of your Nikon Z forecast have proven wrong and mine have proven right. The odds seem pretty high that the track record extends to lenses too...  8)

Show me a list. I have my list in front of me. And make a clear distinction between predictions ('this will happen') and possibilities ('Nikon could do this') and conditionals ('if X is true, then Nikon could do this'). With no ability to see the future, you need a range of possibilities, almost like a flow-chart. I write all three, and you obviously fail to see the difference.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: elliot_n on August 23, 2018, 09:27:00 pm
This is a strange time as a Nikon owner. Is this the beginning of the end of the F mount?  I was surprised to see in their roadmap of the future, a 20mm 1.8 prime Z mount.  They just recently came out with the F mount version.  Other than for long telephoto lenses why would Nikon ever make another F mount lens?  Is the D850 the last of the pro DSLR?  Then again can they really survive in the mirrorless market?

I share your concerns. I'm still shooting with a D800 — whilst I was tempted by the D850, I figured that the upgrade from 36 to 45 megapixels wouldn't register in prints. I planned to wait for the next incarnation of the Nikon DSLR, but perhaps there won't be one?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Kirk_C on August 23, 2018, 09:30:20 pm
In fact they do that to an extend. There is an official Nikon kit bundling the adapter that ends up being 50% discounted.

Selling something at cost or minimal profit is not Nikon absorbing the cost as the poster I was replying to suggested they could do.

And it's natural that they will offer a relatively inexpensive path for the long term user that also supports the used market value of their legacy products.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: shadowblade on August 23, 2018, 09:39:05 pm
With non-phone cameras losing popularity contest, they aim for the luxury market. The proverbial dentists and lawyers.

Will Nikon be the first to recognize that there is a niche of serious photographers at the high end of the market out there who will pay MORE for a slower prime or zoom if it is smaller and lighter AND the quality matches the price?

+1

+2

This may be the start of Nikon turning into Leica - competing primarily for the niche, wealthy hobbyist market rather than delivering the products demanded for commercial use. A 58/0.95, USD6000, manual focus lens is the tool of a rich, creative hobbyist, not that of a working pro. They may correct this in the future with further lens releases and more suitable bodies (Dual. Card. Slots.), but, right now, there is no reason for any user relying on their cameras for income not to either stick with Nikon SLR for another generation or two (until their current lens lineup is obsolete) or to move to Sony mirrorless instead.

As it stands, if you already shoot Nikon and have F-mount lenses, then D850/D5 are better than the new cameras in most respects. If you don't already shoot Nikon, there's no reason to go for the system with one card slot and three relatively-slow lenses over the system with dual card slots on all their latest bodies and a large collection of available lenses, both first- and third-party, including compact ones if you want them.

Yes, image quality is the core value here and I believe that you are totally correct in your understanding of the direction Nikon is taking.

The DSLR series of f1.8 Nikon lenses is already outstanding and it appears that the S line is even better.

There are probably going to be super compact lenses added later that may not belong to the S series, but for now all the lenses announced do. This says a lot about the focus of Nikon and they can be trusted on this!

Cheers,
Bernard

Apart from a page of Nikon hyperboles and marketing-speak, what evidence do you have of any of this? Image quality is everyone's core goal, not just Nikon's. Zeiss/Canon/Sony/Sigma have all delivered lenses just as good as Nikon's - each one wins in a different category, at a different point in time. You mightn't be able to match Nikon's 70-200/2.8, but you also can't match Sony's 100-400, Sigma's cheap-but-super-sharp primes or Canon's lineup of tilt-shifts.

Nikon can be trusted? No more than anyone else - not after they abandoned their Nikon 1 lineup and DL series cameras.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: eronald on August 23, 2018, 09:45:54 pm
Is there actually a difference between the hi-rez Nikon and a Sony A7R3 wrapped in black rubber with a red stripe?

With drop-in all-digital sensors most of the image quality comes from the sensor. This leaves the signature tone and color mapping for Jpegs and of course the all-important AF algorithms to vary from one Sony customer to another - Sony being of course its own customer.

This is Sony image quality with a Nikon lens mount and Nikon ergonomics. A winning combo for customers, but as far as variability goes, the market has just got smaller again, there is almost no breeding pool left.

Edmund
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 23, 2018, 09:48:08 pm
As it stands, if you already shoot Nikon and have F-mount lenses, then D850/D5 are better than the new cameras in most respects.

How about taking into account the opinion of people who actually use these cameras? Or do also know better than us? ;D

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: elliot_n on August 23, 2018, 09:52:31 pm
Is it enough to make a plausible copy of the camera made by the manufacturer of your sensors?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 23, 2018, 09:53:03 pm
Is there actually a difference between the hi-rez Nikon and a Sony A7R3 wrapped in black rubber with a red stripe?

With drop-in all-digital sensors most of the image quality comes from the sensor. This leaves the signature tone and color mapping for Jpegs and of course the all-important AF algorithms to vary from one Sony customer to another - Sony being of course its own customer.

There are a few noticeable differences:
- the opportunity to lose images thanks to the lack of dual memory slot
- the ability to use F lenses at near native performance level
- a much larger lens mount that seems more future proof (similar to what Canon EOS has been offering over Nikon F)
- different ergonomics (that may end up being a matter of taste)
- different sensors, although Sony probably manufactures the D850/Z7 sensors, it is pretty different in ISO range, noise behavior and color filtration
- IBIS that seems to work for still and video, helped by the larger mount
- different AF algos indeed with a major impact on still and video shooting

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 23, 2018, 09:54:59 pm
Is it enough to make a plausible copy of the camera made by the manufacturer of your sensors?

The manufacturer of a sensor is not that important really. There are many fabs out there.

Now, this raises the question. How can mirrorless cameras differ from each others?

Have all the SLRs been copies of the original Nikon F?

How do we expect the upcoming Canon mirrorless to differ from these 2?

Either they are identical from a distance (like all cars are the same), or you decide to look at the details and then they start to look pretty different (and people pay 10 times the price for an Audi compared to a Tata... although all the basic functions are identical).

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: gkroeger on August 23, 2018, 09:56:14 pm
There are a few noticeable differences:
- the opportunity to lose images thanks to the lack of dual memory slot
- the ability to use F lenses at near native performance level
- a much larger lens mount that seems more future proof (similar to what Canon EOS has been offering over Nikon F)
- different ergonomics (that may end up being a matter of taste)
- different sensors, although Sony probably manufactures the D850/Z7 sensors, it is pretty different in ISO range, noise behavior and color filtration
- IBIS that seems to work for still and video, helped by the larger mount
- different AF algos indeed with a major impact on still and video shooting

Cheers,
Bernard

Add to that lossless compression of unadulterated raw files.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: shadowblade on August 23, 2018, 10:02:15 pm
How about taking into account the opinion of people who actually use these cameras? Or do also know better than us? ;D


How about giving a list of points showing exactly why moving to Z-mount would be better than just staying with D850/D5 for now, or moving to E-mount instead, instead of basically saying, 'just trust me'?

Almost every task the Z6/Z7 can accomplish, one out of the D850, D5, A7III, A7r3 or A9 seem to do better.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 23, 2018, 10:12:31 pm
Almost every task the Z6/Z7 can accomplish, one out of the D850, D5, A7III, A7r3 or A9 seem to do better.

Very true statement for a change, but I don't walk around with these 5 bodies. And I believe that you have here the answer to your own question.

One factor you may want to consider really is that once you have demonstrated your inability to acknowledge your past mistakes, there is very little incentive in continuing to discuss with you.

But ok... one last time, the advantages of the Z7 over the D850:  ;D
- all the advantages of mirrorless cameras that you have been hammering on us when promoting the a7rIII over the D850 in Nikon threads:
- smaller, lighter
- IBIS
- wider focus area
- more accurate AF using lenses wide open
- the advantages of EVFs (preview of actual shooting conditions, better at low light levels,...)
- much better video and live view AF

some specific Z7 advantages resulting from Nikon's implementation:
- access to unique lenses not possible until now and to lenses of overall higher image quality
- better video specs
- direct access to user settings
- multi-role top LCD
- better touch screen usage
- better and more usable silent shooting
- slightly faster shooting sequences

The non inconvenients compared to what I would experience with a Sony a7rIII
- remain weather sealed
- maintains great compatibilty with F lenses
- has similar ergonomics
- still best in class auto-ISO capability
- still true 14bits lossless raw

And now, the disatvantages compared to my D850:
- lack of double memory slot
- one less direct UI dial
- worse battery life (probably not as bad as the standard figures tell, but still)
- possibly a slight reduction of AF speed for F mount lenses
- worse buffer
- the fun factor of shooting with an OVF

Now, it would have been incredibly refreshing to have you listing these instead or me, but I guess that was expecting too much.

As far as I am concerned, I will probably try the Z7, shoot with it for a few months in parallel to the D850 and decide if I keep it or not (and if I sell the D850 or not). This is really the only way to get to know a camera and I don't like to talk about things I don't know well... Shooting meaning take actual photographs btw. I don't know whether it is something you still do, I haven't seen you post any images for a long time.

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1793/43107002525_b15f0ecc5b_h.jpg)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: SrMi on August 23, 2018, 10:19:15 pm
There are a few noticeable differences:
- the opportunity to lose images thanks to the lack of dual memory slot
- the ability to use F lenses at near native performance level
- a much larger lens mount that seems more future proof (similar to what Canon EOS has been offering over Nikon F)
- different ergonomics (that may end up being a matter of taste)
- different sensors, although Sony probably manufactures the D850/Z7 sensors, it is pretty different in ISO range, noise behavior and color filtration
- IBIS that seems to work for still and video, helped by the larger mount
- different AF algos indeed with a major impact on still and video shooting

Cheers,
Bernard

Sony A7rIII is essentially a one card system with a built-in spare SD card holder :-) ... it is so unusable.
Focus bracketing, multiple exposures are for some people very important features, found only on Nikon.
On the other hand, I think people obsess too much about cameras and sensors and neglect the lenses (availability and quality). New Z mount looks promising.
 
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BJL on August 23, 2018, 10:23:34 pm
Almost every task the Z6/Z7 can accomplish, one out of the D850, D5, A7III, A7r3 or A9 seem to do better.
That only seems relevant if owning all five of those cameras — and carrying several of them in some situations — is a preferable alternative. [Management consultant hat on] Market viability often relates to Pareto-optimality: roughly, having a better balance of pros over cons compared to each single alternative for the priority weightings of a sufficient number of potential customers.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: eronald on August 23, 2018, 10:44:41 pm
How about giving a list of points showing exactly why moving to Z-mount would be better than just staying with D850/D5 for now, or moving to E-mount instead, instead of basically saying, 'just trust me'?

Almost every task the Z6/Z7 can accomplish, one out of the D850, D5, A7III, A7r3 or A9 seem to do better.

Nikon have done what the Japanese do perfectly - miniaturised the existing product with no loss in performance. So if you want a smaller D850 body, just buy a Z7. If you have a D850, and like it, keep it. I don't think there will be any perceptible image quality difference for another year or so, at which point Nikon will put the existing F mount lens range on life support, and you will need to move to Z to get the latest and greatest lenses, and standard zooms for the next generation of 60MP cameras.

Edmund
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: hcubell on August 23, 2018, 10:44:48 pm
This may be the start of Nikon turning into Leica - competing primarily for the niche, wealthy hobbyist market rather than delivering the products demanded for commercial use. A 58/0.95, USD6000, manual focus lens is the tool of a rich, creative hobbyist, not that of a working pro. They may correct this in the future with further lens releases and more suitable bodies (Dual. Card. Slots.), but, right now, there is no reason for any user relying on their cameras for income not to either stick with Nikon SLR for another generation or two (until their current lens lineup is obsolete) or to move to Sony mirrorless instead.

Nikon turning into Leica? That's hyperbole. Nikon doesn't make cameras that are affectations. As for where the market is for high end camera systems these days, I would love to know how many A7RIIIs are sold to so-called pros using them in the pro market versus prosumers or more serious hobbyists. Same with the Nikon D850. Or the Canon 5DIV. The big market is with the prosumer and serious hobbyists, not the so-called pros. The latter don't spend money based upon the availability of disposable income. They are smart and approach the decision on buying new equipment in a hard headed way and only buy what they actually NEED, not what they want. It's just a matter of time until the infatuation with the bokeh nonsense from fast lenses peters out and camera companies start to recognize that the whole market for everything is moving toward smaller and lighter. It doesn't matter whether we are talking about skis,  cameras or backpacks. I personally stop down to f/11 or f/16 almost always to achieve adequate depth of field. Why do I want to carry around an f/1.4 lens that is three times the size and weight? It's insane. Moreover, the latest cameras have amazing high ISO performance. It's 2018. We aren't shooting Kodachrome at ASA 25 anymore. The real world advantages of an f/1.4 lens over an f/1.8 lens are so irrelevant once you get over the infatuation with blurred backgrounds. If Nikon were to offer an 35mm f/1.8 lens with drop dead optical performance that was the same price as an f/1.4 lens that couldn't match the optical performance of the f/1.8 lens and the f/1.4 lens was twice the size and weight of the f/1.8 lens, I believe the f/1.8 lens would vastly outsell the f/1.4 lens.
I actually own a Sony A7RII. to me, it's an electronic toy designed and engineered by an electronics company. I haven't handled a Z7 yet, but my expectation is that the experience of using it will be far more satisfying. 
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: D Fuller on August 23, 2018, 10:57:02 pm
Nikon turning into Leica? That's hyperbole. Nikon doesn't make cameras that are affectations. As for where the market is for high end camera systems these days, I would love to know how many A7RIIIs are sold to so-called pros using them in the pro market versus prosumers or more serious hobbyists. Same with the Nikon D850. Or the Canon 5DIV. The big market is with the prosumer and serious hobbyists, not the so-called pros. The latter don't spend money based upon the availability of disposable income. They are smart and approach the decision on buying new equipment in a hard headed way and only buy what they actually NEED, not what they want. It's just a matter of time until the infatuation with the bokeh nonsense from fast lenses peters out and camera companies start to recognize that the whole market for everything is moving toward smaller and lighter. It doesn't matter whether we are talking about skis,  cameras or backpacks. I personally stop down to f/11 or f/16 almost always to achieve adequate depth of field. Why do I want to carry around an f/1.4 lens that is three times the size and weight? It's insane. Moreover, the latest cameras have amazing high ISO performance. It's 2018. We aren't shooting Kodachrome at ASA 25 anymore. The real world advantages of an f/1.4 lens over an f/1.8 lens are so irrelevant once you get over the infatuation with blurred backgrounds. If Nikon were to offer an 35mm f/1.8 lens with drop dead optical performance that was the same price as an f/1.4 lens that couldn't match the optical performance of the f/1.8 lens and the f/1.4 lens was twice the size and weight of the f/1.8 lens, I believe the f/1.8 lens would vastly outsell the f/1.4 lens.
I actually own a Sony A7RII. to me, it's an electronic toy designed and engineered by an electronics company. I haven't handled a Z7 yet, but my expectation is that the experience of using it will be far more satisfying.

+1
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Kirk_C on August 23, 2018, 11:36:52 pm
The biggest non-phone camera market is and will continue to be wedding and event photographers and every time I read another post with the specs for the Z it's more apparent to me that's Nikon's thinking here.

IBIS and usable auto focus while shooting video is primarily targeting a stills/video multitasking wedding shooter. Real video shooters don't rely on IBIS and rarely (never) auto focus. Panasonic understands that with the 3 current Lumix bodies.

The initial lenses also suit this type of shooter.

IMHO

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 23, 2018, 11:46:04 pm
The biggest non-phone camera market is and will continue to be wedding and event photographers and every time I read another post with the specs for the Z it's more apparent to me that's Nikon's thinking here.

IBIS and usable auto focus while shooting video is primarily targeting a stills/video multitasking wedding shooter. Real video shooters don't rely on IBIS and rarely (never) auto focus. Panasonic understands that with the 3 current Lumix bodies.

The initial lenses also suit this type of shooter.

Indeed, you are most probably right.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: D White on August 23, 2018, 11:57:31 pm
Nikon turning into Leica? That's hyperbole. Nikon doesn't make cameras that are affectations. As for where the market is for high end camera systems these days, I would love to know how many A7RIIIs are sold to so-called pros using them in the pro market versus prosumers or more serious hobbyists. Same with the Nikon D850. Or the Canon 5DIV. The big market is with the prosumer and serious hobbyists, not the so-called pros. The latter don't spend money based upon the availability of disposable income. They are smart and approach the decision on buying new equipment in a hard headed way and only buy what they actually NEED, not what they want. It's just a matter of time until the infatuation with the bokeh nonsense from fast lenses peters out and camera companies start to recognize that the whole market for everything is moving toward smaller and lighter. It doesn't matter whether we are talking about skis,  cameras or backpacks. I personally stop down to f/11 or f/16 almost always to achieve adequate depth of field. Why do I want to carry around an f/1.4 lens that is three times the size and weight? It's insane. Moreover, the latest cameras have amazing high ISO performance. It's 2018. We aren't shooting Kodachrome at ASA 25 anymore. The real world advantages of an f/1.4 lens over an f/1.8 lens are so irrelevant once you get over the infatuation with blurred backgrounds. If Nikon were to offer an 35mm f/1.8 lens with drop dead optical performance that was the same price as an f/1.4 lens that couldn't match the optical performance of the f/1.8 lens and the f/1.4 lens was twice the size and weight of the f/1.8 lens, I believe the f/1.8 lens would vastly outsell the f/1.4 lens.
I actually own a Sony A7RII. to me, it's an electronic toy designed and engineered by an electronics company. I haven't handled a Z7 yet, but my expectation is that the experience of using it will be far more satisfying.

Your are making a lot of assumptions:

Not every one is a landscape shooter stoping down to f16.

Some people actually like the effect of shallow depth of field, and I don't see this evaporating any time soon.

Not every one wants to sacrifice any quality by boosting ISO. There is still a difference between ISO100 and even 800, let alone even higher ratings.

A good system gives choices; Speed vs size and portability. Cost vs maximum performance. Convenience of zooms vs benefits of fixed. Specialty lenses.

And thank god for prosumer users to help fund diversity of products.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: D Fuller on August 24, 2018, 12:19:11 am
I just discovered a disturbing spec in the official Nikon TechSpec (https://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-products/product/mirrorless-cameras/z-7.html#tab-ProductDetail-ProductTabs-TechSpecs) sheet for the Z7: Battery life for movie recording is listed as 10-15 minutes. Can that be right? If it is, it's the most disturbing spec I've heard so far. Certainly it's one thing to look for some clarity on in the coming days.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 24, 2018, 12:44:19 am
I just discovered a disturbing spec in the official Nikon TechSpec (https://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-products/product/mirrorless-cameras/z-7.html#tab-ProductDetail-ProductTabs-TechSpecs) sheet for the Z7: Battery life for movie recording is listed as 10-15 minutes. Can that be right? If it is, it's the most disturbing spec I've heard so far. Certainly it's one thing to look for some clarity on in the coming days.

That is indeed a bit ridiculous.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 24, 2018, 12:50:34 am
Not every one is a landscape shooter stoping down to f16.

Some people actually like the effect of shallow depth of field, and I don't see this evaporating any time soon.

Not every one wants to sacrifice any quality by boosting ISO. There is still a difference between ISO100 and even 800, let alone even higher ratings.

A good system gives choices; Speed vs size and portability. Cost vs maximum performance. Convenience of zooms vs benefits of fixed. Specialty lenses.

That is very true.

Now, the practical difference in look and ISO related image quality between f1.4 and f1.8 isn't that large, especially if f1.8 is excellent as claimed by Nikon.

Besides, we will soon have many other options, starting with existing F mount glass, but also adapted lenses with the soon to show up adapters.

Finally, Nikon had published a roadmap with at least a 58mm f0.95 manual focus (that some seem to see as a luxury item, I see it more as engineers having fun) and 50mm f1.2 autofocus and we can expect more.

I don't think anyone is saying that the Z system is making do without large aperture lenses, it is on the other hand, going to be best in class on that front.

The point is more that it makes a lot of sense to offer very high quality primes opening a bit less than are compact and still suitable for a wide variety of situations. The point being that most brands spec these as cheapish lenses with lesser image quality.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: davidgp on August 24, 2018, 03:10:57 am
Is it focus-by-wire? And if so, how does one do that?

They say it is going to be a manual focus lens, so no focus by wire.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on August 24, 2018, 03:13:06 am
Political comments are supposed to be banned but I doubt Jeremy is reading this thread.

I am reading the thread; and I do not regard that as a political comment.

Jeremy
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: davidgp on August 24, 2018, 03:38:50 am
The manufacturer of a sensor is not that important really. There are many fabs out there.

Ohh, yes it is... and very important. A fab it is not just a simply assembly line, a very important success of a chip and its performance depends on the processes how to build transistors and photodiodes in the fab.

As you can read here: https://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2018/07/17/pixels-for-geeks-a-peek-inside-nikons-super-secret-sensor-design-lab <-- Nikon already says that they are using photodiodes designed by Sony (well... they don't say Sony, but lets say that from several years now all their sensors are done in Sony SemiConductors). They do a lot of design around the Sony photodiodes, but it is based on their technology.

If, let's say, Nikon decides to go to OmniVision or Samsung, the other bigger sensor manufacturers right now, they will need first to buy all the Samsung or OmniVision sensor design libraries, then start to understand the physical properties of their photodiodes, and go through several test and tries to get their costumized version of the sensors.

The BSI photodiode design that the D850 is using and gives that nice performance, is thanks to the Sony base photodiode design (I'm not saying that Sony designed BSI architecture... I'm saying they are probably building one of the best implementations of it, that it is used in the 45 megapixeles sensor design of Nikon or in the Apple iPhone camera sensor).
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 24, 2018, 04:33:24 am
Ohh, yes it is... and very important. A fab it is not just a simply assembly line, a very important success of a chip and its performance depends on the processes how to build transistors and photodiodes in the fab.

OK fine, but nobody knows what kind of agreement there is between Sony and Nikon and how they crossed shared IP.

So I don't find this that relevant in terms of determining the potential of the Z6/Z7 of future iterations of the Z.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Manoli on August 24, 2018, 04:57:40 am
The whole drama about the memory slot is such a pity because it casts a huge negative shadow on what is likely to be the best image quality system in existence in the 35mm world.

hyperbole gone wild

I don't think anyone is saying that the Z system is making do without large aperture lenses, it is on the other hand, going to be best in class on that front.

“going to be” - how do you know ?  Up until the D850 , the last time Nikon produced anything that could reasonably be described as 'best in class' , was the D3 back in 2007.


Other than that, the Z7 is pretty much a mirrorless D850, which itself is pretty much an A7r3 with a mirror. So I'd expect their performance to be pretty similar, give or take a few features on each side (eye focus, better weather sealing, pixel shift, etc.).

Probably the most accurate assessment so far.

It's a notably low-risk introduction, makes full use of existing Nikon components (whilst taking a hefty design leaf out of the Leica SL), and incorporates nothing new except IBIS. No Eye AF on launch – really ?

The only quasi certain upside that I can see is that due to the close existing relationship between Cosina/Zeiss and Nikon, it shouldn't bee too long until Batis lenses sport a redesigned rear z-mount. Should be the same for Sigma 'Art' series glass too, even though existing Art series should mount on the Nikon Z adapter.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: shadowblade on August 24, 2018, 05:00:24 am
That only seems relevant if owning all five of those cameras — and carrying several of them in some situations — is a preferable alternative. [Management consultant hat on] Market viability often relates to Pareto-optimality: roughly, having a better balance of pros over cons compared to each single alternative for the priority weightings of a sufficient number of potential customers.

You don't need to own all five cameras - just the right one for your particular situation.

Own a lot of F-mount lenses? What's the incentive for moving to Z-mount now, as opposed to sticking with D850/D5, allowing your lenses to age out/break/get stolen instead of buying more, and choosing a new system in 5-10 years time based on the situation then?

Shoot Canon? If you're happy with the base-ISO DR (and you presumably are, since you're still using it) what's wrong with sticking with Canon SLR and seeing what Canon releases on the mirrorless front in a few months time? Or, if you want better IQ but have a large collection of Canon lenses, why not the A7r3 with the performance-proven Metabones adapters? What does the Z7 offer you that each of these other options doesn't?

Don't shoot full frame and want to move into it? Why the Z6/Z7, with minimal initial lens selection and only a promise of future performance and future lenses, instead of the much more mature E-mount system with known - and good performance?

At the moment, there seems little logical reason to get the Z-mount, except as a compact secondary body for current F-mount users for when they don't want to carry a large body around, or for shooting video. This will almost certainly change with time, as Nikon releases more Z-mount lenses and reduces support for F-mount. But, until that happens, it just doesn't look particularly attractive as a primary system.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: fdisilvestro on August 24, 2018, 05:00:47 am
They say it is going to be a manual focus lens, so no focus by wire.

Focus by wire does not mean autofocus. It means there is no mechanical link between the focusing ring and the optics being moved. I don't know if the Nikon Z-mount will be focus by wire
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 24, 2018, 05:04:12 am
“going to be” - how do you know ?  Up until the D850 , the last time Nikon produced anything that could reasonably be described as 'best in class' , was the D3 back in 2007.

Euh... you seem to have forgotten the D3x, D800, D810, D5 as well as many of their recent lenses (19mm T/S, 70-200 f2.8 E FL,...)?

But my point is that nobody else is planning to offer f0.95 super high end statement lenses usable on a high res body as far as I know. I'd love to be pointed to an alternative.

As far as the Z having the potential to offer the best image quality, it seems to be a pretty reasonable assumption based on the facts at hand, starting by the mount, but I totally agree that we need to wait for the actual measurements. The results you can get from the Fuji GFX and Hasselblad H1D indicate what can be achieved with a correctly sized mirrorless mount and those lenses are pretty impressive, especially the 21mm F4 from Hasselblad. I am just extrapolating this to 35mm taking into account the recent performance of Nikon in terms of lens design.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 24, 2018, 05:05:37 am
Own a lot of F-mount lenses? What's the incentive for moving to Z-mount now, as opposed to sticking with D850/D5, allowing your lenses to age out/break/get stolen instead of buying more, and choosing a new system in 5-10 years time based on the situation then?

I have provided you with a list of 15~20 reasons a few posts above. Many of which you have been using for months to convince us about the superiority of the a7rIII.  ;D

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: kers on August 24, 2018, 05:57:39 am
At last  Nikon seems to make a decent 50 mm lens; costing three times more.
Too bad i first have to buy a new body to use it.
I am glad to see Nikon makes new lightweight quality lenses
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 24, 2018, 06:18:47 am
At last  Nikon seems to make a decent 50 mm lens; costing three times more.

I guess it depends on what decent means... the way Nikon describes the 50mm, it seems to be an Otus competitor. As far as I know, it is the first time Nikon explicitly mention highly controlled longitudinal color aberations (and we know this is the most challenging aspect to correct in lens design). It that were indeed the case, we could look at it as costing 3 times more... or as costing 4 times less. ;)

Anyway, I understand that Nikon claims seem to be perceived as marketing crap so we'll just have to wait for actual tests.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Manoli on August 24, 2018, 06:21:40 am
Euh... you seem to have forgotten the D3x, D800, D810, D5 as well as many of their recent lenses (19mm T/S, 70-200 f2.8 E FL,...)?

Nope, haven't forgotten them - I even owned the first two (and the D3).
There's a difference between describing something as being good, excellent etc and arbitrarily assigning the miniker 'best-in-class'. The D3 was ground breaking. The rest less so and as far as lenses go, read Roger Cicala (https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2016/12/taking-apart-the-new-nikon-105mm-f1-4e-ed-af-s/) on the much loved 105 f/1.4, to name but one.

Quote
We recently tested the Nikon 105mm f/1.4E ED AF-S lens and were mightily impressed. [...]  I try to identify where my head is whenever I write about anything, so you’ll understand when I go all fan-boy or all snarky. Like everyone else, my expectations going in have a lot to do with my impressions coming out. In this case, I told Aaron before we started that given how awesome this lens was optically that I expected Nikon’s optomechanics were going to modernize, too. Unlike previous Nikon lenses, I thought this lens would have nice,  modular construction, no soldered wires running hither and yon, not so much Kapton tape holding stuff down, and maybe even some curved circuit boards. You know, like a lens from the 21st century, not like one from the 1980’s. Aaron didn’t think so.

Well, I was a little bit right but mostly wrong.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Manoli on August 24, 2018, 06:24:04 am
Anyway, I understand that Nikon claims seem to be perceived as marketing crap so we'll just have to wait for actual tests.

Not always, but often - as you'll read in the LensRentals post I've linked to above .
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 24, 2018, 06:28:42 am
Nope, haven't forgotten them - I even owned the first two (and the D3).
There's a difference between describing something as being good, excellent etc and arbitrarily assigning the miniker 'best-in-class'. The D3 was ground breaking. The rest less so and as far as lenses go, read Roger Cicala (https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2016/12/taking-apart-the-new-nikon-105mm-f1-4e-ed-af-s/) on the much loved 105 f/1.4, to name but one.

I guess we are just talking semantics here. To me, "best in class" simply means the best product in a given segment. It is no synonymous to ground breaking. It is possible to be best in class without being ground breaking.

Btw, I don't think we can still call the 105mm f1.4 best in class any longer. It remains brilliant, but has probably been over taken by the much heavier Sigma 105mm f1.4.

Not always, but often - as you'll read in the LensRentals post I've linked to above .

I am not sure this is a good example, because as far as I know, Nikon has never claimed that they had adopted a new lens construction approach to build the 105mm f1.4, did they? All they said is that they have put in place a new "best in class" optical bench to help speed up an improve lens design. A tester at Lens Rental had just made some assumptions that ended up not being correct.

I totally agree that Nikon has progress to make in terms of modularization, and we don't know if they have for Z bodies/lenses, but I don't see how their failure to do so with the 105mm f1.4 is a valid confirmation that their marketing claims cannot be trusted.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: scooby70 on August 24, 2018, 06:45:53 am
I actually own a Sony A7RII. to me, it's an electronic toy designed and engineered by an electronics company. I haven't handled a Z7 yet, but my expectation is that the experience of using it will be far more satisfying.

You missed out the bit about Sony making Playstations and DVD players.

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Manoli on August 24, 2018, 07:07:12 am
... but I don't see how their failure to do so with the 105mm f1.4 is a valid confirmation that their marketing claims cannot be trusted.

It's further down the blog post ...

Quote
This view also exposes Nikon’s ongoing creative marketing. Many of you probably think the designation of SWM on this lens, which stands for Silent Wave Motor, means you get an expensive ring ultrasonic motor. Not so much. That’s the focusing motor there with the green band around it. Fanboys are going to scream that I’m splitting hairs trashing Nikon’s marketing about SWM, since this is technically an ultrasonic motor (although other manufacturers have the decency to call them micro-ultrasonic to differentiate them from ring-ultrasonic). Let’s look at a screen grab from the Nikon page for the 105mm f/1.4E ED AF-S lens:

http://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-products/product/camera-lenses/af-s-nikkor-105mm-f%252f1.4e-ed.html
http://www.nikonusa.com/en/nikon-products/product/camera-lenses/af-s-nikkor-105mm-f%252f1.4e-ed.html

Note Nikon’s text says “–rather than a gear system–to focus the lens”. If you look at the motor, what do you see? Correct. A gear system to focus the lens. The lens still focuses just fine and while it’s not silent, it is very quiet. But please don’t tell me it’s “better than a lens with a gear system” when it has a gear system, OK? Y’all must think nobody’s ever going to open up your lenses and see you’re blowing smoke up our internet.

IIRC, Nikon moderated/changed their publicity shortly afterwards.

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Chairman Bill on August 24, 2018, 07:15:46 am
You missed out the bit about Sony making Playstations and DVD players.

That's right. Someone makes an informed but negative comment about a Sony camera and it needs to be dismissed as the ravings of an anti-Sony troll. Well done.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: shadowblade on August 24, 2018, 08:01:29 am
I have provided you with a list of 15~20 reasons a few posts above. Many of which you have been using for months to convince us about the superiority of the a7rIII.  ;D

Cheers,
Bernard

Obviously, all those advantages are contingent on using the proper native lenses for the mount. That goes for both Sony and Nikon. If you're going to kill your AF by using adapted lenses,  you may as well stick with SLR, keeping the native AF performance when you need it and using Live View with manual focus to get the mirrorless advantages when you need them.

Also, one of the most useful features of mirrorless is eye focus. Nikon doesn't have it anyway, so you're not losing out by sticking with SLR.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 24, 2018, 08:22:08 am
Obviously, all those advantages are contingent on using the proper native lenses for the mount. That goes for both Sony and Nikon. If you're going to kill your AF by using adapted lenses,  you may as well stick with SLR, keeping the native AF performance when you need it and using Live View with manual focus to get the mirrorless advantages when you need them.

Also, one of the most useful features of mirrorless is eye focus. Nikon doesn't have it anyway, so you're not losing out by sticking with SLR.

Do you even know who you are trying to convince of what my friend?

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1886/43330859705_423f5c9744_h.jpg)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Manoli on August 24, 2018, 08:25:52 am
Someone makes an informed but negative comment about a Sony camera ...

By any reasonable measure that's a contradiction in terms.
It can be one or the other but, by definition, it can't be both.

-
Edit: /jesting less anyone takes this seriously ..
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: davidgp on August 24, 2018, 08:36:24 am
OK fine, but nobody knows what kind of agreement there is between Sony and Nikon and how they crossed shared IP.

So I don't find this that relevant in terms of determining the potential of the Z6/Z7 of future iterations of the Z.

Cheers,
Bernard

In that we agree Bernard :)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: davidgp on August 24, 2018, 08:39:08 am
Own a lot of F-mount lenses? What's the incentive for moving to Z-mount now, as opposed to sticking with D850/D5, allowing your lenses to age out/break/get stolen instead of buying more, and choosing a new system in 5-10 years time based on the situation then?

I can think of some:

- Video... if you want to do video, Z system looks like an interesting option to use your F lenses (while switching to Z lenses if you really are looking for autofocus).
- You really want to go mirrorless... This is the best path for Nikon users right now.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 24, 2018, 08:39:11 am
By any reasonable measure that's a contradiction in terms.
It can be one or the other but, by definition, it can't be both.

Love it! ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on August 24, 2018, 08:48:04 am
The goalposts seem to be shifting here. We've been told that mirrorless is where it's at, and absolutely essential for making halfway decent images and that Nikon and Canon are hopelessly left behind and Nikon users are flocking to Sony. Overnight that unassailable lead in technology has disappeared, Nikon users have no incentive to switch to Sony, but we are told that in any case there's no interest in swapping your Nikon DSLR for mirrorless.

So what was all the fuss about anyway?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on August 24, 2018, 08:57:58 am
I think if you are looking for a new system as I was then mirrorless is a good option but if you think you need to move in order to improve your photography then you must be either desperate, new to photography or incurablely optimistic. I like mirrorless but doubt that it makes me a better photographer

I think I’m doing my best work ever at the moment but there are reasons for that other than mirrorless technology.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 24, 2018, 09:14:52 am
I think if you are looking for a new system as I was then mirrorless is a good option but if you think you need to move in order to improve your photography then you must be either desperate, new to photography or incurablely optimistic. I like mirrorless but doubt that it makes me a better photographer

In fact this isn’t about mirrorless. The purchase of any new piece of equipment, from a sandbag to a MFDB can be questionned similarly.

And the answer will differ from person to person, from month to month,...

I believe that some pieces of equipment help improve the technical excellence of photographs, other can help creativity in various ways (slowing down or going faster, challenging new variables,...), others help with productivity, others help with the way we are perceived and that can build confidence for personnallities in need of external validation,...

How a switch from a DSLR to a mirrorless camera fits into this picture is a complex question worth an essay I could see myself writing.

I think I’m doing my best work ever at the moment but there are reasons for that other than mirrorless technology.

I certainly hope that most photographers can state the same while being honnest.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: D Fuller on August 24, 2018, 09:59:55 am
I can think of some:

- Video... if you want to do video, Z system looks like an interesting option to use your F lenses (while switching to Z lenses if you really are looking for autofocus).
- You really want to go mirrorless... This is the best path for Nikon users right now.

This is of much interest to me. And the performance reports for video AF, combined with the ability to output 10-bit 4:2:2 uncompressed LOG video could make it the best full-frame video camera available under $20,000. Make a dumb PL mount and you have a massive number of MF lenses added to the Nikkor AF and MF choices. BUT... and it’s a massive but, the video battery life is worrying.

We use small cameras like these for their size and weight and ability to work in situations where larger cameras are difficult. Gimbals, car interiors, hike-in locations, etc. If the battery life is what Nikon’s specs say it is, 10-15 minutes of movie recording, it renders the cameras unusable without external power. And that is a very big strike against them for any serious video use. It defeats the very reasons we would choose it.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Rob C on August 24, 2018, 10:27:10 am
Maybe. It sucks even more to be a lousy photographer with any of those camera systems.


Ain't that the truth!

I believe that high-grade hookers earn even more than dentists, and they usually retire well before hitting 51.

;-)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Manoli on August 24, 2018, 10:54:17 am
BUT... and it’s a massive but, the video battery life is worrying.

We use small cameras like these for their size and weight and ability to work in situations where larger cameras are difficult. Gimbals, car interiors, hike-in locations, etc. If the battery life is what Nikon’s specs say it is, 10-15 minutes of movie recording, it renders the cameras unusable without external power. And that is a very big strike against them for any serious video use. It defeats the very reasons we would choose it.

From memory and strictly IIRC, this was also an issue with the earlier A7r(s) - the Sony's could be powered by an external power pack, but even then they were limited to 30 minutes recording time for reasons to do w/ dissipating heat. I'd check w/ the boys over in 'Motion' , they should be able to give you first hand feedback.

I'd hope that these Nikons could also be powered via the USB port. Anyone know for sure ?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: bcooter on August 24, 2018, 10:57:46 am
I guess we are just talking semantics here.

snip

I totally agree that Nikon has progress to make in terms of modularization . . .  snip.

Cheers,
Bernard


I think it’s al conjecture until the first users put the camera through it’s paces regardless of published specs, because there are specs that outperform, some the opposite..

I also think a lot o people will buy this camera for the Nikon name, since Nikon is considered a camera company first for foremost.

In the last few years I’ve seen more millenials using a Nikon or Canon dslr in Santa Monica and London than ever before.   It’s a step up from their phones and obviously there are still a lot of phone photos happening, but the point is the step up.

Personally I’d love to see a camera mirror or ovf (or both) that had modularity, using the bottom right angle grip to come in two flavors.  One for video, one for stills.  The video one could have extra cooling, xlr inputs, higher bit rate, extra processing for higher fps, etc.

The still grip could have more battery power and also higher bit rate both could be used to enhance the tracking autofocus.

But I guess that won’t happen because the reason it seems for mirrorless is to create a smaller form factor.

I believe another reason for mirrorless is to entice the next generation.    Two weeks ago our family got together and my  young nieces and nephew always want to play with whatever camera I bring so I took an old 70d with a 16-55 2.8 zoom.

These are polite, very careful kids and at first they all tried to look through the ovf to take a snap, but it wasn’t natural to them, so I turned on the lcd and showed them how to focus and shoot with it.  Now that was natural because they were trained to photograph with a smart phone.   After firing a few stills, they wanted to shoot movies, so off they went running around filming each other, using the lcd because that’s what they know.

So I think this is what the mirrorless makers see, millions of aspiring photographers/film makers that are trained with a big lcd and a button.

I hope the Nikon is a winner, though their first three lens selections puzzle me.   Personally I’d have come out with three native zooms.  16-55, 24-70 and 70 to 200 and that will cover about everything.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Chairman Bill on August 24, 2018, 11:38:08 am
By any reasonable measure that's a contradiction in terms.
It can be one or the other but, by definition, it can't be both.

-
Edit: /jesting less anyone takes this seriously ..

 :D
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: ErikKaffehr on August 24, 2018, 11:40:17 am
Hi BC,

Thanks for chiming in!

The way I see it, the new Nikons offer an alternative to the D-line. Until the Nikons were released, Sony and Leica were the only vendors of full frame mirrorless. With Nikon Z series they have some competition and competition is always a good thing.

The way I see it, the Z-series offers a complement to the D750 and the D850. I don't think Nikon cares about selling a Z7 or a D850, although they probably make more money on the Z7.

I would expect that Canon also has mirrorless full frame around the corner.

I am not so sure that full frame is important. My take is that you used to be quite happy with Panasonic GH, also for stills,

Best regards
Erik





I think it’s al conjecture until the first users put the camera through it’s paces regardless of published specs, because there are specs that outperform, some the opposite..

I also think a lot o people will buy this camera for the Nikon name, since Nikon is considered a camera company first for foremost.

In the last few years I’ve seen more millenials using a Nikon or Canon dslr in Santa Monica and London than ever before.   It’s a step up from their phones and obviously there are still a lot of phone photos happening, but the point is the step up.

Personally I’d love to see a camera mirror or ovf (or both) that had modularity, using the bottom right angle grip to come in two flavors.  One for video, one for stills.  The video one could have extra cooling, xlr inputs, higher bit rate, extra processing for higher fps, etc.

The still grip could have more battery power and also higher bit rate both could be used to enhance the tracking autofocus.

But I guess that won’t happen because the reason it seems for mirrorless is to create a smaller form factor.

I believe another reason for mirrorless is to entice the next generation.    Two weeks ago our family got together and my  young nieces and nephew always want to play with whatever camera I bring so I took an old 70d with a 16-55 2.8 zoom.

These are polite, very careful kids and at first they all tried to look through the ovf to take a snap, but it wasn’t natural to them, so I turned on the lcd and showed them how to focus and shoot with it.  Now that was natural because they were trained to photograph with a smart phone.   After firing a few stills, they wanted to shoot movies, so off they went running around filming each other, using the lcd because that’s what they know.

So I think this is what the mirrorless makers see, millions of aspiring photographers/film makers that are trained with a big lcd and a button.

I hope the Nikon is a winner, though their first three lens selections puzzle me.   Personally I’d have come out with three native zooms.  16-55, 24-70 and 70 to 200 and that will cover about everything.

IMO

BC
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: shadowblade on August 24, 2018, 11:51:25 am
Do you even know who you are trying to convince of what my friend?

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1886/43330859705_423f5c9744_h.jpg)

That was clearly not taken using either face detection or eye focus, so I fail to see your point.

SLRs don't have eye detection. Neither do the Z6/Z7, though, so there's no advantage to be gained in that respect by moving. And, if you're going to still be using all your old F-mount lenses, because Z-mount equivalents aren't available yet, you're giving up performance while not getting much back in return.

If there were native versions of the lenses you needed, it would be a different story - you'd gain all the benefits of mirrorless without giving anything up. But that's not going to happen for the Z mount for at least a few years.

I can think of some:

- Video... if you want to do video, Z system looks like an interesting option to use your F lenses (while switching to Z lenses if you really are looking for autofocus).

Have you seen the battery life on this thing? It's rated for half the number of shots as the A7r3 for stills (in reality, the A7r3 gets you thousands per charge, not the stated 600-700) and reportedly only manages video for 15 minutes.

The output format looks good, but, unless you want to keep it plugged into a charger the whole time, the battery life might be a killer. Also, there's nothing stopping you from using F-mount lenses on an E-mount body for video. And the A7s3 is just around the corner (supposedly October).

Quote
- You really want to go mirrorless... This is the best path for Nikon users right now.

Then you really need to ask yourself why.

In general, you move to a different format in order to do something you can't do, or can't do as well, with your current equipment. With the Z6/Z7 and current lens lineup, that's not a lot - the D850 and D5 can do almost everything just as well or better than the Z6/Z7, particularly if you're going to stick with F-mount lenses and use them via an adapter. If you're not going to keep the F-mount lenses and plan to start afresh (which is perfectly reasonable if you only own one or two easily-resellable lenses anyway), then you're just as free to choose Sony and (likely soon) Canon as you are to choose Nikon - in which case, why are you going with the system with unproven bodies and only three lenses to choose from (with a few more dribbling out over the next few years) instead of a proven system with a large collection of lenses to choose from, including fast supertelephotos coming online from this year?

The point is, is there any reason for the F-mount user to shift to Nikon mirrorless right now, as opposed to moving to Sony/Canon, or sticking with SLR and making a move to mirrorless (in whatever format) in a few years time, as F-mount dies down and your lenses shift towards obsolescence? Probably not, from a purely performance point of view. If you just want to change to mirrorless for the sake of going mirrorless... well, that's not really all that logical.

The goalposts seem to be shifting here. We've been told that mirrorless is where it's at, and absolutely essential for making halfway decent images and that Nikon and Canon are hopelessly left behind and Nikon users are flocking to Sony. Overnight that unassailable lead in technology has disappeared, Nikon users have no incentive to switch to Sony, but we are told that in any case there's no interest in swapping your Nikon DSLR for mirrorless.

So what was all the fuss about anyway?

Mirrorless is where it's at for new systems. As in, if you didn't own any full-frame camera gear, you probably wouldn't want to go out and by a whole collection of EF- or F-mount lenses and bodies, since both systems are likely to gradually wind down over the next 5-10 years or so. This is because SLRs are near the pinnacle of their development, and new technologies that will meaningfully improve the shooting capabilities of cameras almost all require image data that only the through-the-sensor mirrorless approach can provide. At this point, if you were buying a new system, with no pre-existing collection of lenses, it would make most sense to go for Sony, since they have a semi-mature system with a wide range of lenses, in a format that isn't likely to lose support and updates over the next decade.

If you already have a collection of full-frame SLR lenses, it's different. Presumably, you want to keep on using those lenses for as long as you can, until they break down or are so thoroughly overtaken by technology that you have to replace them anyway. SLRs may be at their peak and mirrorless cameras may have much more potential, but, for the moment, their performance is around equal. But adapted lenses almost never perform as well AF-wise as lenses used on their native mount. So, by bringing your SLR lenses over to a mirrorless format and using an adapter, you aren't gaining much, and losing a good chunk of AF performance. Better to keep on using SLRs for as long as possible, keeping the full performance of your lenses but not accumulating any more of them, until either your lenses are no longer even second-rate by the standards of the day, or the gulf in performance between mirrorless and SLR systems grows so wide that you wouldn't want to miss out on the performance - at which point you would ditch the SLR system entirely and start afresh with whichever mirrorless system most suits your needs at that point in time.

There are obviously a few exceptions to this, such as when the mirrorless system offers one specifically sought-after feature that the SLR system lacks, and the user doesn't care about AF. This was the case with the migration of Canon-using landscape/studio/non-action photographers to Sony when they launched the A7r, when Canon was unable to keep up in either resolution or low-ISO dynamic range. But this is not the case with the Z6/Z7 - Nikon SLRs use much the same sensors, with much the same performance (http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/RN_ADU.htm#Nikon%20D850_14,Nikon%20Z%207_14(p)).

The main reason for going mirrorless is future-proofing, not current performance. F-mount, and likely EF-mount (unless Canon decides to use EF mount on mirrorless and simply designs all future lenses with motors and control systems with mirrorless focusing in mind) will likely be relics in 10 years time. E-mount probably won't be.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on August 24, 2018, 01:55:00 pm
I have deleted several posts from this thread which seemed to me (and to those who reported them to me) to be both gratuitously offensive and irrelevant. The posters know who they are and must consider themselves warned.

Jeremy
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: eronald on August 24, 2018, 02:46:49 pm
I have deleted several posts from this thread which seemed to me (and to those who reported them to me) to be both gratuitously offensive and irrelevant. The posters know who they are and must consider themselves warned.

Jeremy

I don't understand what all the fuss is about. Nikon is delivering a mirrorless clone of the A7R3, which is a known quantity, a good camera with lots of features and a decent price point that is not substantially more advanced than anything else. Nikon fans now have a mirrorless option but nothing else has changed - why are people so polarised?

Edmund
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BJL on August 24, 2018, 02:57:56 pm
You don't need to own all five cameras - just the right one for your particular situation.
So your claim is that for the full range of a photographer’s needs, a single one of those alternatives is as good as it better than a Z7 or Z6 for everything? I am skeptical. One case is the many people who prefer the Nikon lens options as a whole, adapted plus Z-mount, expect Nikon in the mid-term to bring that lens system advantage to Z-mount, and want some of the advantages of the new EVF system. Advantages like precise manual focussing and video performance and handling while using the eye-level VF. Plenty of first time buyers in this format will be satisfied in the short term with one or two Z mount lenses and trust  Nikon to deliver more options by the time they are ready to buy.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on August 24, 2018, 03:09:49 pm
I don't understand what all the fuss is about. Nikon is delivering a mirrorless clone of the A7R3, which is a known quantity, a good camera with lots of features and a decent price point that is not substantially more advanced than anything else. Nikon fans now have a mirrorless option but nothing else has changed - why are people so polarised?

Edmund

Very good point.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on August 24, 2018, 03:19:20 pm
I don't understand what all the fuss is about. Nikon is delivering a mirrorless clone of the A7R3, which is a known quantity, a good camera with lots of features and a decent price point that is not substantially more advanced than anything else. Nikon fans now have a mirrorless option but nothing else has changed - why are people so polarised?

Good question. I imagine they just enjoy arguing.

Jeremy
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Telecaster on August 24, 2018, 04:38:12 pm
My contention still stands that the less meaningful the differences between brands become in real-world use, the more heated the exchanges between "competing" brand acolytes tend to be. The need for tribe-based conflict is a weird, and often self-defeating, aspect of human nature.

 ;)

-Dave-
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Telecaster on August 24, 2018, 04:48:27 pm
Will the Sony bough bend but not break under the weight of the Nikon stone (pic #1) or will it splinter & crack (pic #2)?  ;D

(Photos taken with a Nikkor 10.5cm f/2.5 lens, rangefinder version, mounted on a Sony A7iii camera via Techart Pro AF adapter.)

-Dave-
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: KLaban on August 24, 2018, 04:50:53 pm
My contention still stands that the less meaningful the differences between brands become in real-world use, the more heated the exchanges between "competing" brand acolytes tend to be. The need for tribe-based conflict is a weird, and often self-defeating, aspect of human nature.

-Dave-

I liked it first time around and it's certainly worth repeating.

 ;)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: fdisilvestro on August 24, 2018, 05:03:13 pm
I find it funny that one of the most offensive possible comment to a photographer is "oh, you must have a really good camera", but then when you read threads like this, it looks that unless you have such and such feature, or use this particular brand / model, you will not be able to take good images
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 24, 2018, 05:04:59 pm
... you will not be able to take good images

Certainly not without a second memory card  ;)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: D Fuller on August 24, 2018, 05:08:38 pm
My contention still stands that the less meaningful the differences between brands become in real-world use, the more heated the exchanges between "competing" brand acolytes tend to be. The need for tribe-based conflict is a weird, and often self-defeating, aspect of human nature.

-Dave-

Reminds me of an old saying about academia: "The reason that arguments between faculty members at universities are so heated is because they matter so little."
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on August 24, 2018, 05:11:11 pm
Reminds me of an old saying about academia: "The reason that arguments between faculty members at universities are so heated is because they matter so little."

You are a very annoying man, Dave: I was just about to make a similar post. "The reason disputes in academia are so vicious is that the stakes are so small." But I'll forgive you.

Jeremy
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: eronald on August 24, 2018, 05:48:39 pm
Certainly not without a second memory card  ;)

I always enjoyed using a camera without film on vacation

Edmund
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 24, 2018, 06:00:53 pm
For those interested in information about the Z7/Z6, there are some interesting links at Nikon rumors, for instance this one:

https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/23/nikon-z-mirrorless-system-additional-coverage-z-brochure-first-z7-sensor-measurements.

Other pieces of info:
- the Z7 and Z6 are produced in Sendai like the D5, and are 75% automated vs 50% on the D5,
- I saw MTF charts for the 50mm f1.8 S (can’t find the link now) and they seem outstanding,
- large retailers in Japan are still committing delivery on availability date for the Z7/FTZ/24-70 and 35mm f1.8 S

Cheers,
Bernard


Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: eronald on August 24, 2018, 08:10:06 pm
For those interested in information about the Z7/Z6, there are some interesting links at Nikon rumors, for instance this one:

https://nikonrumors.com/2018/08/23/nikon-z-mirrorless-system-additional-coverage-z-brochure-first-z7-sensor-measurements.

Other pieces of info:
- the Z7 and Z6 are produced in Sendai like the D5, and are 75% automated vs 50% on the D5,
- I saw MTF charts for the 50mm f1.8 S (can’t find the link now) and they seem outstanding,
- large retailers in Japan are still committing delivery on availability date for the Z7/FTZ/24-70 and 35mm f1.8 S

Cheers,
Bernard

So it's an 850 sensor in performance. Which probably means it's an 850 sensor except for some of the peripheral circuitry and focus aids.
And Sony still seem to be selling themselves a marginally better sensor than they sell to customers. No surprise there either.

Edmund
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 24, 2018, 08:12:03 pm
I don't understand what all the fuss is about. Nikon is delivering a mirrorless clone of the A7R3, which is a known quantity, a good camera with lots of features and a decent price point that is not substantially more advanced than anything else. Nikon fans now have a mirrorless option but nothing else has changed

Edmund,

Out of curiosity, do you think that technical progress is still possible in photography? Is there a possibility that new and better cameras/lenses could still be released, or have we seen it all with the Sony G Master on the a7rIII?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Two23 on August 24, 2018, 08:58:45 pm

Out of curiosity, do you think that technical progress is still possible in photography? Is there a possibility that new and better cameras/lenses could still be released, or have we seen it all with the Sony G Master on the a7rIII?

Cheers,
Bernard


I assume you're being tongue in cheek here, and will add an observation.  In addition to collecting/using historical camera gear, I also collect historical photos (1850-1940), and antique photography journals/annuals.  I remember reading an editorial in one from the 1920s that progress with lenses had gone as far as it could go.  And at that time they were probably right.  Lenses were then limited to five or six elements at most due to light loss & internal reflections.  Within ten years, Zeiss figured out that coated lenses dramatically reduced the light loss and entirely new lens designs came about with much more complexity.  But, that would all have to wait until after WW2 was over.

Which camera do I prefer--the Nikon DSLR or a Sony mirroless?  Well, tomorrow I'm going out to photo a steam threshing bee.  I'm taking two cameras.  One is a gorgeous Century Camera Co. Model 44 (c.1905)  shooting 4x5 dry plates, and a spiffy Kodak Special No.2 (c.1914) with Optimo shutter & TT&H anastigmat lens shooting ISO 50 b&w roll film.  I'm hoping to get some very unique photos! :)


Kent in SD
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 24, 2018, 09:20:46 pm
A bit tongue in cheek, but reading some comments here it seems to be a given that, regardless of the lack of any test data, the Z system and its lenses could not possibly deliver images that are technically any better than what we have today.

To me, assuming that there is no brand like/dislike coming at play, this is akin to saying that one believes that progress has ended.

That 5 years of additional thinking time from one of the leading optics company has zero chance of delivering improvements. I find such a flat entropic view of the world depressing... everything is the same anyway...

It seems pretty obvious to me that the #1 design priority of Sony for the FE mount has been camera and lens compactness. This is why they have come up with a mount that is common for APS-C and FF bodies. They been able to design very good lenses (the best ones not compact any more btw) with these constraints and they claim they are 100mp ready.

Then comes Nikon who designs 5 years later a new system around a new mount with the clearly stated #1 priority to design the best possible lenses and a mount aligned with this objective.

I don’t understand why we should doubt the ability of Sony and Nikon to achieve their respective objectives?

The photographers who priviledge compactness should go Sony and those priviledging image quality should go Nikon.

And yes, this is obviously an over simplication, but those trying to have a fair conversation will have understood the idea.

What’s so shocking here? There is no all mighty universal system out there.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: shadowblade on August 24, 2018, 09:30:33 pm
A bit tongue in cheek, but reading some comments here it seems to be a given that, regardless of the lack of any test data, the Z system and its lenses could not possibly deliver images that are technically any better than what we have today.

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/RN_ADU.htm#Nikon%20D850_14,Nikon%20Z%207_14(p) (http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/RN_ADU.htm#Nikon%20D850_14,Nikon%20Z%207_14(p))

Looks to be a near-identical sensor to the D850. So the sensor, at least, is not likely to deliver better images.

Quote
That 5 years of additional thinking time from one of the leading optics company has zero chance of delivering improvements. I find such a flat entropic view of the world depressing... everything is the same anyway...

They're not being compared to equipment from five years ago. They're being compared with equipment today, because that's what they're competing against. Nikon don't have five years additional development time over these, and less experience making mirrorless cameras. So, yes, they'd obviously be better than equipment from five years ago. But not better than Canon/Sony/Sigma equipment from today.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 24, 2018, 09:34:21 pm
I am speaking about mount and lenses.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: eronald on August 24, 2018, 09:37:00 pm
Edmund,

Out of curiosity, do you think that technical progress is still possible in photography? Is there a possibility that new and better cameras/lenses could still be released, or have we seen it all with the Sony G Master on the a7rIII?

Cheers,
Bernard

Absolutely. Progress will happen. But the ones who are pushing hardest at the moment are the phone guys and Google with computational photography, and Sony with their cellphone customers financing basic sensor research. Nikon doesn't have a huge research capital to build on when it comes to the camera bodies, although they do have considerably optical engineering and user-side experience, and goodwill.

The new Nikon has a new mount, and is an electronic finder camera and a has a movable sensor , and I think at this point Nikon was VERY WISE not to take any more risks and incur technological debt by incorporating more innovation, and hopefully releasing a stable next-gen platform that bring it to the technological point where Sony was with the A7RII.

You keep baiting me to say this is a bad product; but it isn't. It's a necessary technological stepping stone for a company-wide transition to mirrorless. Sony had less of a problem here because they are the original developers of much of this tech, some in a video context like the electronic viewfinders, and had time to experiment as they have other businesses. 

Edmund
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: shadowblade on August 24, 2018, 09:40:24 pm
From people who have actually used and tested it (https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/nikon-z7-z6-quirks-has-blackout-z7-does-5-5fps-no-lens-mount-sharing-to-third-parties/)


If true, some of these are huge deal-breakers. 9fps is fine for action. 5.5fps puts in a completely different, slower class. The small buffer and slow clearance would also make it largely a non-action camera.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: eronald on August 24, 2018, 09:43:01 pm
Bernard,

BTW, I do think some fast advances could be made in computational photography if the best work in this field hadn't been done in remote sensing, reconnaissance and targeting, and has thus been classified for a long time. But then seeing who I am talking to ...

Edmund
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: eronald on August 24, 2018, 09:49:18 pm
I am speaking about mount and lenses.

Cheers,
Bernard

It's not obvious at all that the right designs for electronic-viewing lenses are the same as for the old optical-viewing lenses.

So I expect a lens design revolution to hit quite quickly when the current designs are amortized, but I think as with everything camera-related the phone guys will leapfrog the camera companies.

Edmund
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 24, 2018, 09:49:41 pm
BTW, I do think some fast advances could be made in computational photography if the best work in this field hadn't been done in remote sensing, reconnaissance and targeting, and has thus been classified for a long time. But then seeing who I am talking to ...

I fully agree. I have been stating many times that smartphones will soon kill low end DSLR and computational photography will play a big role.

In fact I am not involved in such developments. The company I work for is not defense related. 😉

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 24, 2018, 09:58:52 pm
From people who have actually used and tested it (https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/nikon-z7-z6-quirks-has-blackout-z7-does-5-5fps-no-lens-mount-sharing-to-third-parties/)

  • Z7 only manages 9fps with a battery grip. Without the grip, it slows to 5.5fps. The Z6 is slowed by a similar amount.

No, this is not true at all:
- 9fps in 12 bits compressed raw with exposure locked
- 8 fps in 14 bits compressed raw with exposure locked
- 5.5 fps in 14 bits compressed raw

  • Z7 only has a 2.5 second buffer when shooting 12-bit compressed RAW (obviously less when shooting 14 bit, and more when shooting JPEG). No mention as to whether this is when shooting with or without a grip.

Correct

  • Slow buffer clearance - compared with the original-series A7/A7r (not that the A7r3/A9 are particularly fast either, unless you're using a single UHS-II card - Sony needs to fix this in the next generation and use UHS-II for both slots)

Would be surprising considering how fast XQD is, but could be. Don't forget these are beta cameras.

  • No exposure compensation dial. Far less needed on mirrorless, since you have a real-time through-the-lens exposure simulation, but it might take some getting used to. Certainly, I've never touched the dial on the Sony, but I never use Tv or Av modes either - mirrorless makes manual exposure very easy.

These is an exposure compensation dial just right of the shutter... not sure how you could possibly miss it and it is certain that any tester would have known this. So your introduction that this information is coming from actual testers cannot possibly be true. Some would call it "fake news".

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: eronald on August 24, 2018, 10:05:47 pm
I fully agree. I have been stating many times that smartphones will soon kill low end DSLR and computational photography will play a big role.

In fact I am not involved in such developments. 😉

Cheers,
Bernard

Nikon's real problem when creating its lens roadmap is that their cameras are a footnote to the billion or so phones being sold every year. The key to the way lens design co-evolves with computational photography will be in the custom silicon, and the custom silicon will be spun off whatever the cellphone guys need.

And then of course there is the little problem that their cameras are not socially connected. Do I pull out my iPhone and post the image of the kids on the rollercoaster immediately to the family insta acct, or do I say that I will do it when I get home from vacation?  The japanese industry has historically underestimated the importance of software - this is what allowed the iPhone and cousins to genocide the very advanced japanese mobile phone industry, in the same way the Internet effortlessly strangled France's flourishing Minitel system.


Edmund
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 24, 2018, 10:07:18 pm
Agreed, but the same applies for all SLR, mirrorless or not.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: eronald on August 24, 2018, 10:11:17 pm
Agreed, but the same applies for all SLR, mirrorless or not.

Cheers,
Bernard

Actually, no. If an SLR is optical then the lens needs to be "see through",  most lens aberrations need to be corrected optically, by convention, so the lens optics are mostly system-agnostic.
This is what allows these huge lens ranges to flourish over a long period, it is an ecosystem of interchangeable parts.

Electronic imaging allows lenses you cannot "look through" to be be employed in a digital still camera (I forget the acronym),  but these lenses are then captive to the type of electronics you employ to recover the image ...

I liked the age of optics, but I think it will disappear like the age of film, well within my lifetime.

Edmund
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 24, 2018, 10:16:19 pm
Actually, no. If an SLR is optical then the lens needs to be "see through",  most lens aberrations need to be corrected optically, by convention, so the lens optics are mostly system-agnostic.
This is what allows these huge lens ranges to flourish over a long period, it is an ecosystem of interchangeable parts.

Electronic imaging allows lenses you cannot "look through" to be be employed; but these are then captive to the type of electronics you employ to recover the image ...

How are Nikon and Sony different from that standpoint?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: shadowblade on August 24, 2018, 10:16:39 pm
No, this is not true at all:
- 9fps in 12 bits compressed raw with exposure locked
- 8 fps in 14 bits compressed raw with exposure locked
- 5.5 fps in 14 bits compressed raw

Actual tested speeds, or just according to the spec sheet? As we have seen from Sony mirrorless cameras (as well as Canon/Nikon SLRs), what's on the spec sheet can be quite different from actual use and often represents a best-case scenario, with idiosyncrasies discovered only upon release and further testing.

Obviously, the testers would have had preproduction cameras, which likely don't function as well as the release model will.

Quote
Correct

Would be surprising considering how fast XQD is, but could be. Don't forget these are beta cameras.

Slow buffer clearance is usually more of an issue than small buffers. I can work in 1-2 second bursts, if I don't have to wait 15 seconds or so between them.

It may not be due to XQD, but other bottlenecks in the data handling pipeline.

Quote
These is an exposure compensation dial just right of the shutter... not sure how you could possibly miss it and it is certain that any tester would have known this.

It looks like a big control wheel with no markings to me. Has it actually been stated to be an exposure compensation dial?

Quote
So your introduction that this information is coming from actual testers cannot possibly be true. Some would call it "fake news".

Not my quote. I merely reposted it from another site, which actually linked the pages where testers reported each of these issues. I have no reason to doubt the honesty or motivations of the testers, regardless of the accuracy of their results.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: eronald on August 24, 2018, 10:19:13 pm
How are Nikon and Sony different from that standpoint?

Cheers,
Bernard

Exactly as with the whole mirrorless tech: Sony are close to the camera phone engineers and to the silicon. They can see 2 or 3 years further into the future.

I mean the economic future: They know what chips will fall fully designed into their camera designer's hands in 2 years. All of this tech design stuff is I believe a little like romance:: Your success rate is different if you know ahead of time whether she plans to go on the date, or she's just thinking about it :)

Edmund
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in early 2019
Post by: D Fuller on August 24, 2018, 10:26:42 pm
You are a very annoying man, Dave: I was just about to make a similar post. "The reason disputes in academia are so vicious is that the stakes are so small." But I'll forgive you.

Jeremy

Jeremy, I like your phrasing better, so there’s that.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 24, 2018, 10:27:26 pm
https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-z7-first-impressions-review

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 24, 2018, 10:36:15 pm
https://m.dpreview.com/articles/1904416326/nikon-z-7-sample-videos

Looks like Nikon is starting to be competitive on the video front.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 24, 2018, 10:40:09 pm
Exactly as with the whole mirrorless tech: Sony are close to the camera phone engineers and to the silicon. They can see 2 or 3 years further into the future.

I mean the economic future: They know what chips will fall fully designed into their camera designer's hands in 2 years. All of this tech design stuff is I believe a little like romance:: Your success rate is different if you know ahead of time whether she plans to go on the date, or she's just thinking about it :)

Maybe some day...

For now computational photography is concentrating on merging images shot from different tiny lenses.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: D White on August 24, 2018, 10:48:52 pm
I find this to be an exiting time and transition.

I have come to appreciate the advantages of mirrorless with the Olympus system I use for overseas travel, I love real time histograms for instance and waste far less time reviewing exposure after the fact. And IBIS is such a big advantage across the board of lens use, and stunning with those lenses that also have optical stabilization. The small form factor will keep me using the Olympus for travel as we all know that the format size is the biggest influence on system size as opposed to simply going mirrorless.

But when back home or traveling in North America for my landscapes I continue to love using my Canon as well.

Thus I look forward to what Canon will offer. My wish list is for better sensors, IBIS, and eye detection focus among other things. (Eye detection is semi wizard in the Olympus and would be greatly appreciated with wide open portrait focal lengths).

But, as you know with Canon, they may score well with many of their lenses but they have a habit of disappointed too when it comes to some aspects of their bodies. Innovation with bodies has not been their history for some time now. They are solid and reliable but always seem a step behind.

But I digress; the exciting thing is that we are entering an era of semi body agnostic. If Canon disappoints I may very well try at least a Sony body, or perhaps a Nikon if reasonable adapters show up. For landscape work, adapters are likely to perform well enough, but there are obviously mixed reviews when it come to AF performance.

But if I like what I see with a competing body, it would trigger a transition to native lenses away from Canon, at least for those that benefit the most from AF performance. (I would not give up my Canon TS lenses and a few others). Mirrorless bodies are opening up the option to transition at a measured pace rather than dumping everything at once.

Maybe I will even join Bernard to the dark side of the force, (Nikon).

Changing systems must be carefully evaluated as it is obviously a significant expenditure over time, despite those here that feel a DDS degree is a license to be extravagant. They forget, I still have a wife to answer too. And with my luck, just as I complete a transition, Canon will come out with the most amazing body that crushes every one else.

One thing I have not seen a comment on yet; will the Nikon IBIS work in conjunction with optical stabilized F series lenses via their adaptor?

Regards
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: D Fuller on August 24, 2018, 10:56:04 pm

Slow buffer clearance is usually more of an issue than small buffers. I can work in 1-2 second bursts, if I don't have to wait 15 seconds or so between them.

It may not be due to XQD, but other bottlenecks in the data handling pipeline.

I watched a panel discussion hosted by B&H this evening. The Sports Illustrated photographers on it described buffer clearing fast enough that buffer size was never a problem. So reports of slow clearing may have been from earlier beta cameras.

It looks like a big control wheel with no markings to me. Has it actually been stated to be an exposure compensation dial?

It’s been stated to be a multi-use dial. Interestingly, the ‘control ring’ on the lenses can be programmed to be exposure compensation as well if you don’t want to use manual focus.

Also—on battery life: the same SI photog mentioned above claimed he shot all day—2000 frames—without exhausting one battery. That’s 6x better than the CIPA spec of 330. And on that note, the Nikon spec sheet has been updated to a rated 85 minutes of movie recording.

He also claimed that SnapBridge worked very well for remote controlling the cameras.

Finally, he said that after testing them, he has four on order—two each of the z7 and z6. All in all, a very encouraging review.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 24, 2018, 11:05:02 pm
Yes, IBIS is said to work in conjunction with lens VR, they combine the forte of both.

On exposure compensation, there are 2 ways:
- dedicated button right of shutter that is clearly visible on images of the camera shot from the top
- by enabling a setting in the menu the rotation of the rear wheel enables direct compensation without pushing anywhere

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: D Fuller on August 24, 2018, 11:54:37 pm
Yes, IBIS is said to work in conjunction with lens VR, they combine the forte of both.

On exposure compensation, there are 2 ways:
- dedicated button right of shutter that is clearly visible on images of the camera shot from the top
- by enabling a setting in the menu the rotation of the rear wheel enables direct compensation without pushing anywhere

Cheers,
Bernard

According to the B&H panel, one can also program the lens ring to control exposure compensation instead of focus I’d you like.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 25, 2018, 12:17:54 am
Indeed, I had forgotten that.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: shadowblade on August 25, 2018, 01:09:22 am
https://m.dpreview.com/articles/1904416326/nikon-z-7-sample-videos

Looks like Nikon is starting to be competitive on the video front.

Cheers,
Bernard

I'd reserve judgement on that until Canon makes a full-frame announcement (?September ?October) and Sony announces the A7s3 (probably within the next two months). Canon's dual pixel AF is second to none for video AF (held back more by lenses not optimised for mirrorless/video AF than anything else), while the A7s series has pretty much been optimised for video and low light performance.

These two cameras - not the current A9/A7III/A7r3 and the two-year-old A7s2 - will be the peer competitors to the Z6/Z7 for video. (Panasonic's video-oriented crop cameras certainly rate a mention, but aren't really in the same category, due to their lack of a full-frame sensor). Nikon's new video log format certainly looks good - it should offer a lot of latitude in post-processing - but how that stacks up against the new, video-focused peer competitors remains to be seen. Certainly, if the A7s3 is bumped up to 24MP and offers 4k/60fps full-sensor output, or even 6k at 24/25/30fps, it would be a major rival, and would be seen as a significant milestone towards the goal of 8k video for the Tokyo Olympics in two years' time.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: shadowblade on August 25, 2018, 01:41:47 am
But, as you know with Canon, they may score well with many of their lenses but they have a habit of disappointed too when it comes to some aspects of their bodies. Innovation with bodies has not been their history for some time now. They are solid and reliable but always seem a step behind.

They haven't been putting much effort into SLR in the last 8-10 years.

Where they have made a lot of advances is video-related technologies - dual pixel AF and other through-the-sensor AF technologies, data processing, EVFs, etc. These haven't really helped their SLRs, since they're mostly not applicable to SLRs. But they're very applicable to mirrorless cameras - and that's where they'll show up.

Essentially, Canon hasn't done much with their SLR bodies because they've spent the past decade developing mirrorless. Everyone called it 'video' at the time, but what is a mirrorless still camera other than a video camera with higher resolution and slower frame rate?

Of course, having these capabilities isn't the same as actually deploying them into a good camera. But Canon should know, as well as anyone else, that they have to knock it out of the park with their full-frame release.

Quote
Changing systems must be carefully evaluated as it is obviously a significant expenditure over time, despite those here that feel a DDS degree is a license to be extravagant. They forget, I still have a wife to answer too. And with my luck, just as I complete a transition, Canon will come out with the most amazing body that crushes every one else.

You're going to have to change systems no matter what. Whether it's Canon EF to Canon mirrorless or Canon EF to Sony/Nikon, you'll still end up changing all your lenses, unless you want to put up with substandard AF. SLRs are peaking and will start to disappear as mirrorless technologies take over and exceed the limitations of the the SLR design. It's like the transition from TLRs to SLRs, or from manual focus to autofocus - everyone's going to need to buy new lenses. Essentially, this opens up the whole playing field - Canon's and Nikon's incumbent positions in the camera marketplace don't mean much when everyone needs to replace their lens collection anyway, so people don't have a huge pre-existing collection of viable lenses holding them back and restricting their choice of system. This is not likely to occur again for decades, until the next major design shift.

But what you have a choice in is when you make that change. At present, mirrorless doesn't have a huge performance advantage over SLRs - they are on par, with mirrorless better for somethings and the top-end SLRs a bit better for others (partly owing to lens availability). For the moment, SLRs are a perfectly viable system. The question then becomes whether you move to a mirrorless platform now, selling all your SLR gear while they still have value and replacing them with mirrorless equivalents (at some net cost), or whether you keep on using your SLR lenses for as long as possible, getting another 5-10 years of use out of them until they become obsolescent (and possibly unsellable) and moving to mirrorless then.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 25, 2018, 02:05:34 am
Ah... and adding a mirrorless body with a few native lenses to an existing DSLR line up would not be a smart move?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on August 25, 2018, 03:08:03 am
Ah... and adding a mirrorless body with a few native lenses to an existing DSLR line up would not be a smart move?

Particularly for the non-dentists for whom replacing a system en masse is not financially viable.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 25, 2018, 03:29:03 am
Particularly for the non-dentists for whom replacing a system en masse is not financially viable.

Very true, now even if I were able to replace 10 systems cash without much of a second thought I would still add a mirrorless and lenses to address some usage patterns where they are superior.

That’s one of the patterns made possible by the FTZ adapter.

I mean that was before Shadowblade taught me it isn’t a good idea. Now I am really hesitant... :D

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: shadowblade on August 25, 2018, 03:44:15 am
Ah... and adding a mirrorless body with a few native lenses to an existing DSLR line up would not be a smart move?

Cheers,
Bernard

Unless you specifically want it for shooting video (which Nikon SLRs don't do well), what does it get you that a second, backup SLR body doesn't.

You don't save money - the new cameras are as expensive as the SLRs they replace.

A second SLR retains the full autofocus capability of your lenses, whereas a Z6/Z7 doesn't. With two SLRs, you can mount one lens on each - say, 24-70 on one and 70-200 on the other - and are able to use them interchangeably, with each one working just as well as the other. You can't do that with mirrorless.

And, if you're dead-set on going mirrorless and gradually building up your mirrorless lens collection, while using the SLR as your primary body, you're free to use any mirrorless system - Sony, Canon or Nikon - since your new lenses won't fit on your SLR lenses anyway, and you'll be able to adapt your old F-mount lenses onto any mirrorless system, at a cost in AF performance. And the E-mount system is a much more proven quantity, with much greater first- and third-party lens and accessory support, than the Z-mount.

Early adopters can do well - eventually. We have seen that with the evolution of E-mount over the past five years. But it takes time, and early adoption is often not the best solution when more mature systems (in this case, Nikon SLR and Sony E-mount) are available already. In five years' time, Z-mount may well be a capable and well-supported system. But that's not a particularly good reason to go out and buy a new system you won't get much benefit out of in the meantime - by the time Z-mount is more mature and supported, the Z6/Z7 will be obsolete anyway, so you would likely have to buy new bodies.

Particularly for the non-dentists for whom replacing a system en masse is not financially viable.

You're going to have to do it, whether you like it or not, if you want to keep taking photos. Your only choice is when you're going to replace them.

In 10 years' time, updates to SLR bodies and lenses will be few and far between, and Canon and Nikon will stop servicing legacy bodies and lenses. They'll still work, up until the point where they physically/electronically break down, but, if anything happens to them, you're on your own.

Sell them now and you can probably get a good price for your gear - switching is cheaper than buying a new system from scratch. Sell them in 5-10 years and you'll get several extra years' use out of your gear, skipping a few generations (which may well save you money), but you won't get much back for your SLR gear at that stage. Either option is viable, and one may be preferable to the other, depending on how you shoot and what gear you have, but not switching isn't a choice.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: shadowblade on August 25, 2018, 03:47:56 am
Very true, now even if I were able to replace 10 systems cash without much of a second thought I would still add a mirrorless and lenses to address some usage patterns where they are superior.

That’s one of the patterns made possible by the FTZ adapter.

I mean that was before Shadowblade taught me it isn’t a good idea. Now I am really hesitant... :D

Cheers,
Bernard

Under what circumstances are F-mount lenses on a Z-mount camera superior to either F-mount lenses on an F-mount camera, or using E-mount lenses on an E-mount camera?

F-mount lenses work just fine on Nikon SLRs, and, unlike the case with Canon five years ago, Nikon bodies don't have a deficiency that would force someone to take their F-mount lenses and put them on something else.

For applications where you specifically want a mirrorless camera, E-mount lenses on an E-mount camera work much better than adapted lenses.

You won't get many Z-mount lenses on a Z-mount camera, at least not for a few years - they just don't exist yet.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 25, 2018, 03:52:33 am
Are you aware that HCB built the most remarkable portfolio of the history of photography with a 35mm lens?

As far as your questions go, I have already answered them several times. I am not confident about my ability to convey the message better this time around.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on August 25, 2018, 04:03:28 am
Ah... and adding a mirrorless body with a few native lenses to an existing DSLR line up would not be a smart move?

Cheers,
Bernard

Well that would allow you to slowly migrate across without losing functionality. I was fortunate when I moved to Sony that all the lenses I needed for my type of commercial work and personal work were already available so once I figured the system was comfortable for me I dumped all the Canon gear. Actually a much less traumatic scenario would have been the one you propose here but Canon didn’t have anything mirrorless on offer and I wasn’t keen on any of there DSLR offerings at the time.

If I was in Nikon I would without doubt buy one of these two new camera with the 24 to 70 and see how it goes. Obviously I would buy the adapter. It’s a perfect solution. Can’t see any good reason to not do this.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: shadowblade on August 25, 2018, 04:06:03 am
Are you aware that HCB built the most remarkable portfolio of the history of photography with a 35mm lens?

That's about as relevant as knowing Tiger Woods used X brand of golf clubs.

You're probably shooting different things, in a different style, to what he shot. You need gear to suit your photography, not someone else's.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: shadowblade on August 25, 2018, 04:10:46 am
As far as your questions go, I have already answered them several times. I am not confident about my ability to convey the message better this time around.

Cheers,
Bernard

As in, 'failed to answer them at all'.

You have never addressed why getting the Z6/Z7 this year, in 2018 would serve you better than simply getting another Nikon SLR, or moving to E-mount instead. There aren't too many situations where one of those other two options wouldn't give you more capabilities than the Z6/Z7 option.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 25, 2018, 04:12:28 am
That's about as relevant as knowing Tiger Woods used X brand of golf clubs.

You're probably shooting different things, in a different style, to what he shot. You need gear to suit your photography, not someone else's.

It really isn’t easy to type on an iPhone when laughing uncontrollably. That’s at least one thing I have learned from this sureal conversation.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Alex Waugh on August 25, 2018, 04:20:22 am
Guys give it a rest, we're all tired of you two arguing the same points over and over. I don't mind banter but this is just noise.

I'm fairly neutral on the Z cameras at the moment. A big part of my opinion will be formed when I hold one as for me haptics are a huge priority. Ergonomics look decent although I have huge hands so I'm always sceptical of small cameras.

 I love the colour coming out of the 45MP Nikon sensor but sharpness beyond "good enough" is lost on me - rendering is more important. I wish the primes were half the length and simply "very good". I absolutely know i'm in the minority here.

I'm also unsure whether I could get used to 10 hour shooting days using an EVF as I seem to get a slight headache eventually or at the very least eye fatigue. Does this effect anyone else or have any scientific reasoning? Perhaps its just my mind being resistant to  change.

The Northrup pre-production review states it doesn't feel as good as the SLRs, but splits the difference between a D5 and the Sonys. They also didn't think the EVF was much better than the other flagships out there and I find even the A9 EVF mediocre compared to the D850 viewfinder. Not my favourite reviewing duo but probably the most honest hands on out there at the moment.

I love the idea of knowing exactly what I'm getting with an EVF - I find it immensely useful when creating still life compositions and making decisions on colours and geometry. I also have to admit most of my images are viewed on a screen and I get a better idea of how it'll be viewed looking through a backlit EVF.

I don't really mind the single slot although I do think it's a mistake and for wedding shooters DOA.

I shoot slowly and don't need sports AF, it's probably good enough for me. I do love the 3D tracking on my D850 - perhaps the press just struggled to find the right settings since everything is renamed.

Lens wise - I wish Nikon weren't wasting so much R&D on the Noct, although I'm sure the technologies will be seen across the lineup eventually and will pay for themselves. I feel like 3 more crucial lenses this year would have been a better use of time and funds. I'm in no way a professional marketer though - perhaps the fanfare is worth the investment.

I want the 14-30/4 badly and if it was available in F mount I'd own it. Compact, takes normal filters and I use wide zooms in portrait + high res bodies to approximate shift lenses with heavy cropping.



Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: shadowblade on August 25, 2018, 04:32:46 am
Well that would allow you to slowly migrate across without losing functionality. I was fortunate when I moved to Sony that all the lenses I needed for my type of commercial work and personal work were already available so once I figured the system was comfortable for me I dumped all the Canon gear. Actually a much less traumatic scenario would have been the one you propose here but Canon didn’t have anything mirrorless on offer and I wasn’t keen on any of there DSLR offerings at the time.

It still involves replacing all your gear - just that you're doing it gradually, rather than all at the same time. At the end of it, you'll still have a pile of mirrorless lenses and almost no F-mount lenses.

Quote
If I was in Nikon I would without doubt buy one of these two new camera with the 24 to 70 and see how it goes. Obviously I would buy the adapter. It’s a perfect solution. Can’t see any good reason to not do this.

If it were a 24-70/2.8 and the body had dual card slots, I'd say the same. But it only has one card slot and is an f/4 lens.

What Nikon should have done with Z6/Z7 is aimed it squarely at the event/wedding photography crowd. The Z6 would be the star of the show - 24MP, good low-light performance, face detection (since Nikon lacks eye focus), dual card slots, a setting for full electronic shutter without sacrificing bit depth or other image quality and the best AF system they can stuff into a mirrorless body at this stage. Release it with a 24-70/2.8, 70-200/2.8 and 85/1.4 (or even 105/1.4), with announcements of a 14-24/2.8 or 16-35/2.8, 35/1.4 and 50/1.4 on the way imminently (instead of the super-niche, manual-focus 58/0.95). And release a flash system at the same time. State that there will be no SLR successor to the D610 and D750 and announce to the world, 'Event and wedding photographers - this is your camera'. The Z7 would also exist, but in a secondary role, aimed more at studio and well-heeled landscape/travel photographers who would previously have used the D850 with a few fast zooms. An entry-level camera (?Z5) would probably come next. There may not be a Z-mount D5 or A9 equivalent just yet, but that matters little at this stage, since the lens collection wouldn't be there to support such a camera for a few years anyway.

Instead, what we have is a decent body, on the whole quite similar to the A7r3, but with a glaring weakness (Single. Card. Slot.) and a few lenses which don't do justice to the system and don't seem to be aimed at any subset of photographers in particular.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 25, 2018, 04:37:16 am
Alex,

I know... an old dislike for incorrect information and wicked logic... I am working on it... ;D

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on August 25, 2018, 04:39:07 am
You have never addressed why getting the Z6/Z7 this year, in 2018 would serve you better than simply getting another Nikon SLR, or moving to E-mount instead. There aren't too many situations where one of those other two options wouldn't give you more capabilities than the Z6/Z7 option.

Speaking for myself it would be to get the much-touted benefits of an EVF, and keep the ergonomics of the Nikon.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Alex Waugh on August 25, 2018, 04:48:02 am
Speaking for myself it would be to get the much-touted benefits of an EVF, and keep the ergonomics of the Nikon.

Pretty much. I've come to terms with the Sonys being too small for me. Not the end of the world but it does mean I'm very interested in the new options. It will be interesting to see Canons take on whats important.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on August 25, 2018, 04:50:14 am
I don’t care about dual card slots. Not everyone does. Not everyone shoots weddings. Perhaps naive but I have never had a card fail since I moved off CF and even those CFs that failed were DOA.

As for 2.8 lenses I have a several primes that will give me wide apertures but guess what, I don’t use wide apertures. Personally I dislike the shallow depth of field thing. People are so binary these days with depth of field. It must all in focus or have extreme shallow depth of field.

Lot of people have a lots of theories about what pros need. I think Nikon have a better idea than the folks on this forum. As do Canon. Canon still sell a lot of cameras to a lot of pros despite the forums being pretty sure that Canon is hopeless and makes nothing of any use. Either Canon and Nikon and the pros are all idiots or some of the assumptions made on forums are just plain wrong.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Alex Waugh on August 25, 2018, 04:54:16 am
I dont care about dual slots either. I actually don't mind the lens selection, I just wish the 35mm was a 28mm and they were a bit smaller. I really like most of the weight to be in the body - the balance of a D850 and 35/1.8G is pretty much perfect for me.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: mcbroomf on August 25, 2018, 05:01:15 am
A heavy read ...
https://cdn-4.nikon-cdn.com/e/Q5NM96RZZo-RRZZFeeMiveET0gVQ--AxJI7g-xcLVNVcp7mdwZQz5w==/Misc/Z7_Z6_Brochure.pdf
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Jonathan Cross on August 25, 2018, 05:31:50 am
Much of this thread has concentrated on the specs of the Z7 and Z6, but can I look at it from a different angle.  All camera manufacturers need to sell to survive.  To whom will Nikon sell the Z7 and Z6?  I have been a Canon person for many years originally, I guess, by accident.  My first SLR after a Practika was a Canon. I have no idea now why it was not a Nikon.  About 30 years later I went digital and got a Canon 10D as I could keep my EF lenses.  I have ended up with a 5D3.  Eventually the lure of a smaller, lighter system with more information in the viewfinder lead me to try a Fuji X-E1 with the 18-55 lens.  It did not break the bank.  The X–E1 eventually lead to a X-T1 and now an X-T2.  I am delighted and take more images and have more fun with a camera and lenses that I am happy to take around with me in a much smaller bag that the 5D3.  Mirrorless is for me.

Would I buy a Z7 or Z6? Very unlikely.  Why?  Too much cost for too little return now I am into mirrorless as many people I meet are.

Who will buy the Z7 and  Z6?  I guess that Nikon hopes to stem the number of people leaving for the likes of Sony, Fuji, and m4/3, by getting them to stay with Nikon when going mirrorless which seems an unstoppable development.  But what about converts?  Is the price too high given that such people will have to invest in glass as well unless adapters are made available.  (I do not like the thought of an adapter as it means extra weight and size.  I do not even like using a grip with extra batteries and prefer to just carry spare batteries in a little Think Tank battery holder.)  Will those who have another system be tempted to spend a considerable sum of money to change to Nikon?  As this is Nikon’s first serious foray into mirrorless, they cannot sell to Nikon upgraders from a less good mirrorless body, so that market sector does not exist to them.

All of this will also apply to Canon unless they introduce a camera with real competitive advantage.  I do not know if the market will see the Z7 and Z6 as having sufficient competitive advantage.  I hope for Nikon’s sake that people do.

Best wishes,
Jonathan
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: shadowblade on August 25, 2018, 06:23:45 am
I don’t care about dual card slots. Not everyone does. Not everyone shoots weddings. Perhaps naive but I have never had a card fail since I moved off CF and even those CFs that failed were DOA.

That's not the point. It wouldn't be aimed at you. The point is to introduce something that appeals heavily to one, significant market segment and can be a dominant product there, rather than something which does a bit for everyone without really providing a compelling reason for any one segment to migrate. Once you have a strong base there, then you can expand.

That's essentially what Sony did - they pretty much had the Canon-shooting amateur landscape segment by default, since Canon essentially ceded the space to them. And it's what Canon and Nikon will have to do too. You don't sell a product by making something that's mildly interesting to a whole lot of people - you need something that's really compelling to a particular segment to win converts.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: davidgp on August 25, 2018, 06:44:16 am

Who will buy the Z7 and  Z6?  I guess that Nikon hopes to stem the number of people leaving for the likes of Sony, Fuji, and m4/3, by getting them to stay with Nikon when going mirrorless which seems an unstoppable development.  But what about converts?  Is the price too high given that such people will have to invest in glass as well unless adapters are made available.  (I do not like the thought of an adapter as it means extra weight and size.  I do not even like using a grip with extra batteries and prefer to just carry spare batteries in a little Think Tank battery holder.)  Will those who have another system be tempted to spend a considerable sum of money to change to Nikon?  As this is Nikon’s first serious foray into mirrorless, they cannot sell to Nikon upgraders from a less good mirrorless body, so that market sector does not exist to them.


I assume that, if Canon takes too long to create a FF mirrorless camera and somebody like Metabones creates a Z system adapter for EF lenses to Z mount, maybe Canon users start to migrate to Nikon instead of Sony if they want to try mirrorless. If that scenario was happening like two years ago, I maybe ended using Nikon mirrorless system instead of the Sony I'm using now. But as you say, now that I'm converting to Sony system, still using some EF lenses on my kit... I don't have the economics means to change to a new system now or in a few years... I'm not a dentists after all...

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on August 25, 2018, 07:02:54 am
Shadow do you have any evidence that the amateur landscape shooters are where Sony took market share from Canon or that they took market share from canon at all? Do you really think that with IBiS and great high ISO performance and with increasingly good AF and such things as eye focus that Sony set out to and accomplished the task of taking market share from canon in the landscape segment? Also where does your theory of needing fast glass fit in with landscape photography?

Anyway this is about Nikon. I have no idea what their plan is and nor do you. I think but dont know that they are planning a migration path for existing Nikon users. This offering does that imho. Sony needed to break into the market. Nikon need to retain existing Nikon clients. That is working I believe and my evidence for that is Bernard and several friends with Nikon’s who are keen to give mirrorless a try. Two of them have 850s and the mirrorless gives them a more compact option that can be used with existing lenses should they wish to do so.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: DP on August 25, 2018, 07:46:46 am
point to consider (Thom noted it) - Nikon again trying to protect D850 by cutting some features from Z7 to keep D850 better still ... so why 'd you go with a vendor who still does not go in dSLM with full force always keeping mirrorless cameras in 2nd spot ? vs Sony who is totally committed ?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 25, 2018, 07:54:19 am
I understand and agree, but this isn’t about protecting the D850, it is about protecting the Z8/Z9.

I have a huge amount of respect for Thom, but he has been completely wrong in his forecast of Nikon’s mirrorless moves till date.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Alex Waugh on August 25, 2018, 08:12:48 am
I feel like the Z7 will be the flagship high MP body for a couple of years, do they expect studio photographers to live without high end features that they offer on their cheaper D850. I should not have to spend ~$4500+ to get these these things.

A Z9? high speed body for the Olympics is probably a given but commercial and editorial guys have no interest in that body.

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: adriantyler on August 25, 2018, 08:18:05 am
Are you aware that HCB built the most remarkable portfolio of the history of photography with a 35mm lens?

it was actually a 50mm. and just quickly off the top of my head i’ll trow out 3 “portfolios” which have had far more importance to the history of photgraphy than hcb: atget, evans and frank.

sorry that’s totally off topic...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 25, 2018, 08:21:14 am
I feel like the Z7 will be the flagship high MP body for a couple of years, do they expect studio photographers to live without high end features that they offer on their cheaper D850. I should not have to spend ~$4500+ to get these these things.

A Z9? high speed body for the Olympics is probably a given but commercial and editorial guys have no interest in that body.

I don’t when they will be released, but I think we will get:
- z8 which is a a9mk II competitor high speed camera
- z9 which is a a9r competitor with 60+ megapixel

I would bet summer 2019 announcement.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Alex Waugh on August 25, 2018, 08:25:19 am
I don’t when they will be released, but I think we will get:
- z8 which is a a9mk II competitor high speed camera
- z9 which is a a9r competitor with 60+ megapixel

I would bet summer 2019 announcement.

Cheers,
Bernard

If $3400 is the price of the prosumer models I might get priced out by Nikon. No hard feelings but it would be a shame. It costs what it costs I guess.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 25, 2018, 08:32:24 am
If $3400 is the price of the prosumer models I might get priced out by Nikon. No hard feelings things cost what they cost.

Well, this shouldn't come as a surprise, the a9 isn't cheap either.

Now, I have been the first about reporting and complaining about the lack of double memory slot on the Z6/Z7, I fully share the feeling that Nikon has made a huge product planning mistake by omitting this feature. And I would totally understand anybody thinking that this is a regrettable choice that may be life threatening for Nikon.

The only hope would be that they have a solution with their upcoming battery grip that I would find acceptable. But I sincerely doubt it.

My only point here isn't to find excuses for Nikon, but to provide what I think is the right explanation for their decisions.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 25, 2018, 08:35:56 am
it was actually a 50mm. and just quickly off the top of my head i’ll trow out 3 “portfolios” which have had far more importance to the history of photgraphy than hcb: atget, evans and frank.

sorry that’s totally off topic...

My bad, you are correct, but this doesn't change the story. ;)

Beyond that, yes, the importance of the relative portfolios can be discussed and I do agree that at least Atget and Frank are serious candidates. I am less of a fan of Evans, but who cares about what I like.

As I know you have fully understood, the point is that the right camera with a 50mm or 35mm lens can change history.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on August 25, 2018, 08:42:10 am
Now, I have been the first about reporting and complaining about the lack of double memory slot on the Z6/Z7, I fully share the feeling that Nikon has made a huge product planning mistake by omitting this feature. And I would totally understand anybody thinking that this is a regrettable choice that may be life threatening for Nikon

Not every purchaser is as wise as you. I assumed that the 2 card slots on the 800 were so the user could choose between SD and CF. It didn't occur until later that I could use one as a backup. And even then I mostly didn't.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Alex Waugh on August 25, 2018, 08:45:22 am
Well, this shouldn't come as a surprise, the a9 isn't cheap either.

The A9 isn't cheap but most people don't need A9 features, they're niche. Sony position the A7R3 as their pro studio camera (currently). It has great AF + eye AF, dual slot, great battery life. I also don't like it for a myriad of reasons but if Sony can provide these features for $3k then I'd like Nikon to for $3400

Nikon flagship studio DSLR is $3200 and probably costs more to produce.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on August 25, 2018, 08:46:47 am
I think the dual card issue is really not all that important.  As was noted if a card is bad, it is 99% of the time DOA and doesn't fail while shooting.  Event photographers got along just fine with single card DSLRs since the cameras were invented (I'm unsure at what point dual card cameras came on the market; maybe the last five years??).  Event photographers also don't need lots of megapixels as most of the output will not be printed but kept in digital form.  Two women who used to work for me in the pharma industry are now highly respected event photographers and they have told me there is seldom any request for more than a couple of images being printed.

IMO, the big advantage of mirrorless is in size and weight assuming image quality is not compromised by camera/lens design.  For those of us who are getting up in age and enjoy international travel this advance is great.  I upgraded to a D810 just as the model was nearing the end of the cycle as there was a great discount from B&H.  Because of the investment in Nikon lenses over the years, it was difficult to rationalize switching to a non-Nikon mirrorless system (some of the older Nikon lenses purchased in the 1970-1980 time period continue work well on DSLR bodies once the tab is shaved off and one gets use to manual focusing which for landscape photography is just fine).  Were the Z cameras available a couple of years ago I would have purchased one but now it is a more difficult choice (it would be different if photography was a business and I could amortize it on my tax filing).

We will see how this plays out following the launch of the Z cameras and see what the sales actually are.  That is the bottom line for Nikon.

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 25, 2018, 09:15:38 am
Alan,

It is true that the P1 XF, supposedly the highest end camera in existence shooting super highend gigs all the time only has a single memory slot... but it is shot thetered a lot.

I agree that the odds an XQD cards goes wrong during a shoot is very low. But I would probably worry about that possibility.

I had to go through that using my H6D-100c for a year or so until they added back up capability in firmware, I experienced no issue, I ended up forgetting about it... most of the time. But I still far prefer to have 2 slots.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: 32BT on August 25, 2018, 09:56:52 am
I can't imagine either of the mirrorless options to be a main camera for event/wedding in the foreseeable future, but certainly as a backup/silent second unit, which renders the duocard issue more or less irrelevant.

They are good offerings for "amateurs" wanting a single camera, or pro's wanting to dabble with mirrorless as a second body (backup/silent/video).

All of the arguments against these offerings are based on the presumption (as stated) that the consumer makes an entirely logic decision void of emotion with complete information about past, present, and future, and we all know they never, ever do.


Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 25, 2018, 10:06:05 am
At the end it is extremely simple, the key question is whether the ability (or not) of the Z7/Z6 to help create better images overweights its disadvantages, the only obvious one to me as of now is the lack of double memory slots.

The answer will differ for each of us.

The more I read about the camera, the more I feel that it might for me, but that's just my context.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: ErikKaffehr on August 25, 2018, 10:07:29 am
Hi Bernard,

Your reasoning pretty well matches mine...

Best regards
Erik


Alan,

It is true that the P1 XF, supposedly the highest end camera in existence shooting super highend gigs all the time only has a single memory slot... but it is shot thetered a lot.

I agree that the odds an XQD cards goes wrong during a shoot is very low. But I would probably worry about that possibility.

I had to go through that using my H6D-100c for a year or so until they added back up capability in firmware, I experienced no issue, I ended up forgetting about it... most of the time. But I still far prefer to have 2 slots.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: davidgp on August 25, 2018, 11:51:57 am
I don’t when they will be released, but I think we will get:
- z8 which is a a9mk II competitor high speed camera
- z9 which is a a9r competitor with 60+ megapixel

I would bet summer 2019 announcement.

Cheers,
Bernard

I will be quite surprised if after a year Nikon releases another set of cameras. If I was a Z user I will prefer them to concentrate in that aggressive lens roadmap...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: sbay on August 25, 2018, 11:54:27 am
Did Nikon say anything about aps-c mirrorless? Either bodies or lenses?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: davidgp on August 25, 2018, 11:55:41 am
At the end it is extremely simple, the key question is whether the ability (or not) of the Z7/Z6 to help create better images overweights its disadvantages, the only obvious one to me as of now is the lack of double memory slots.

The answer will differ for each of us.

The more I read about the camera, the more I feel that it might for me, but that's just my context.

Cheers,
Bernard

I don't see that big difference between Sony and Nikon offerings... each one has their strong and weak points vs the other... and if I was you Bernad, I would go for the Z system... after all, you must have a good collection of F lenses.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: davidgp on August 25, 2018, 11:56:52 am
Did Nikon say anything about aps-c mirrorless? Either bodies or lenses?

As far as I saw in the different news webpages, I will say no... but I just watched the ones with people with real cameras and no the ones with people just going over the spec sheet, so maybe I missed something.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on August 25, 2018, 12:11:21 pm

All of the arguments against these offerings are based on the presumption (as stated) that the consumer makes an entirely logic decision void of emotion with complete information about past, present, and future, and we all know they never, ever do.

This.

There's spec sheets and road maps and there's being in a camera store and holding something in your hand.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BJL on August 25, 2018, 12:57:10 pm
A more modern version of HCB's 50mm lens is the fact (reference forgotten; sorry) that a great majority of all photographs are in the FOV range from about 24mm to 70mm (35mm equiv.) — and this was data compiled in the late film era, so not skewed by phone-photography. So I expect that a lot of potential 36x34mm format mirrorless cameras buyers will be comfortable doing most or all of their Z photography with one or two of the initial native lenses, and maybe handling the occasional more extreme cases with adaptor-mounted F-mount lenses and/or trusting the roadmap to fill their lens wish-lists.

Though personally I would have liked a "middle-weight" telephoto zoom now or coming soon, like 70-200/4 or 70-300/5.6; but maybe my tastes for the "narrow view" (telephoto and macro) without excessive bulk are better served by a middle-sized format like MFT or APS-C.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Rob C on August 25, 2018, 02:15:53 pm
Perhaps Nikon would have made a smarter decision if they'd introduced a digital take on their rangefinder S3.

Why? Well, think Leica. It makes reflex-style bodies and all that, but the flagship, the thing over which people drool, myself inculded, is the current M-style of body. Nikon could have turned a digi rangefinder into a direct competitor in the luxury market. And don't knock that aspect: it makes money, and money is the bottom line, even for most photographers - if only in ability to spend it or to make it.

Perhaps next year, once they have the mirrorless system perfected.

Either way, I wish 'em luck!

Rob
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Chris Kern on August 25, 2018, 03:54:47 pm
I will be quite surprised if after a year Nikon releases another set of cameras. If I was a Z user I will prefer them to concentrate in that aggressive lens roadmap...

That, and iteratively refining the Z cameras' firmware.  Nikon would be well-advised to take a cue from Fuji in that regard.  So would every other manufacturer, for that matter.  Mirrorless camera bodies, especially, are essentially machine-control software systems—and thus susceptible to selective improvement over time.  As well, of course, as the drivers of the lens sales that produce both profits and customer lock-in.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: hexx on August 25, 2018, 03:55:13 pm
From people who have actually used and tested it (https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/nikon-z7-z6-quirks-has-blackout-z7-does-5-5fps-no-lens-mount-sharing-to-third-parties/)

  • Z7 only manages 9fps with a battery grip. Without the grip, it slows to 5.5fps. The Z6 is slowed by a similar amount.
  • Z7 only has a 2.5 second buffer when shooting 12-bit compressed RAW (obviously less when shooting 14 bit, and more when shooting JPEG). No mention as to whether this is when shooting with or without a grip.


  • Slow buffer clearance - compared with the original-series A7/A7r (not that the A7r3/A9 are particularly fast either, unless you're using a single UHS-II card - Sony needs to fix this in the next generation and use UHS-II for both slots)
  • Half the rated battery life compared with the A7r3. But we knew this one already.
  • No exposure compensation dial. Far less needed on mirrorless, since you have a real-time through-the-lens exposure simulation, but it might take some getting used to. Certainly, I've never touched the dial on the Sony, but I never use Tv or Av modes either - mirrorless makes manual exposure very easy.

If true, some of these are huge deal-breakers. 9fps is fine for action. 5.5fps puts in a completely different, slower class. The small buffer and slow clearance would also make it largely a non-action camera.

Sorry but the source (as linked - sonyalpharumors) is wrong and some of those claims have been pointed as false in the comments section.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Telecaster on August 25, 2018, 04:37:02 pm
I'm bemused, though not surprised, that the lack of "it just works" network connectivity in all these camera systems gets so little attention in threads like this. After all, we're film-era folks who've (mostly) embraced new photo tech…so stuff we consider ancillary doesn't factor much into our gear preferences. But to younger folks seamless wifi isn't ancillary, it's central and flat-out expected. Not even the disruptive upstart, Sony, seems to have a freakin' clue about the demographic brick wall they'll soon splat into if they don't get with it.

-Dave-
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 25, 2018, 04:52:53 pm
Who knows, Nikon may have gotten Snapbridge to work after 3 or 4 iterations? :D

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 25, 2018, 05:04:07 pm
I don't see that big difference between Sony and Nikon offerings... each one has their strong and weak points vs the other... and if I was you Bernad, I would go for the Z system... after all, you must have a good collection of F lenses.

Yes, I do.

But I am open to all options, including selling the whole set of F lenses and going Sony or Canon (not at the moment obviously).

But yes, the easiest route would be adding a Z7 and checking how well it is doing for my typical shooting.

I have a huge amount of admiration for the Sony a7/a9 and for Sony as a company and innovation force. But I have to admit that the Z mount appears to have better optical potential and that’s what appealing to me. I also believe that many who have not used recent glass from Nikon don’t realize the progress they have made and what it means for Z lenses.

I just wish Nikon had made that choice easier by proposing a 2 slot body from the onset.

But it will probably not be a deal breaker in the end.

I can see myself using it in 3 ways:
- for easily reshootable occasions or non critical ones -> I just hope my XQD card works
- for more critical opportunities-> implement a regular card back up strategy using my surface pro
- for can’t fail at any price -> continue to use my D850/D5

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BJL on August 25, 2018, 07:23:18 pm
I don’t when they will be released, but I think we will get:
- z8 which is a a9mk II competitor high speed camera
- z9 which is a a9r competitor with 60+ megapixel
I have a similar vision but not much sense of when: going by names, prices at release, and features, it seems that the Z6 and Z7 are intended to cover most of the range covered by the D610, D750 and D850, while not touching the D5, so my guess:
- A D5 counterpart in time for the 2020 Olympics — if Nikon can get the AF good enough, and
- A higher resolution "Z8" when a next generation higher resolution sensor is available — along with the same sensor in a D850 successor, if there is still demand for such a thing!. No rush on that, I think, and I have no idea when it would come.

Aside: Talk of a single "flagship" camera is simplistic, along with the "pro" vs "amateur" distinction; Nikon has two "top" SLRs in different categories (as does Canon).
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 25, 2018, 07:33:18 pm
Yes, indeed.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on August 25, 2018, 07:33:40 pm
A couple of points that I'm not sure have been mentioned yet... The z7 could be pretty special for my application (I'm a landscape photographer who often hikes in a long way - I hiked 450 miles on the Pacific Crest Trail photographing last year.

1.) This is claimed to have D850 level weather sealing... No Sony is anywhere near that (Olympus is there or beyond - the E-M1 mk II may even be D5 level, and some of the newer Fujis are close to a D850). We'll have to see if that's real, but if it is, it's got a VERY interesting combination (to landscape photographers) of a big-MP sensor and weather sealing.

Why not use a D850? This thing and the 24-70 f4 are half the weight of a D850 with the 24-70 f2.8 (yes, the SLR lens is faster, but they don't have a lighter alternative with very high image quality - again, we'll have to see if the 24-70 f4 has the claimed IQ). If the claims on both (lens - I'm sure the sensor's terrific) IQ and weather sealing are true, the z7 is unique as a hikeable landscape camera.

2.) Unlike any other mirrorless camera, the z6 and z7 take tilt-shift lenses without an unsupported third-party adapter. Yes, it's three pieces, but it's a camera by Nikon, attached to an adapter made for the camera by Nikon, attached to a lens by Nikon... That seems a lot less fishy than Sony camera to Metabones (who the heck is Metabones) adapter to Canon lens. Sure,  Sony or Fuji could release a first-party tilt-shift lens, but nobody has yet, and I haven't seen one on anybody's public roadmap.

3.) I don't love the single card slot, but XQD cards are supposed to be a lot more reliable than SD... What if they've got the chances of a card failure down to 1 in 200,000 images? The shutter fails once in 200,000 images. If you can't take a 1 in 200,000 chance of failure (and there are some jobs where you can't), use two cameras, because there are plenty of mechanical parts in any camera with failure rates in that range. SD cards are closer to 1 failure in 20,000 images, so dual slots are needed. How's the error checking on XQD? Will it immediately report a card error?

4.) What's up with that battery life? I'm inclined to think it's a testing quirk or a flaw with the pre-production models. The few people who've played with one suggest it's a testing quirk - they're seeing much better life.  If it's not, the camera is about twice as power hungry as it's competitors - Fujis get about 300-350 shots out of the little NP-W126 batteries (with about half the power of an EN-EL15), and Sonys get in the high 200s from their little battery (like the Fuji one), and I've heard close to 600 from the EN-EL15 size battery.

Assuming the battery life works out and the sealing and IQ are as promised, this could be a pretty ideal hiking camera - no heavier than hiking with a Fuji, but twice the pixels, ISO 64, an extra stop or two of DR. My long hike lenses would be the 24-70 and 14-30 f4 pair. When closer to the car, it has the versatility of T/S lenses (and just about anything else - if nobody's put a F mount on it, nobody's made the lens...).

Dan

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 25, 2018, 07:53:45 pm
Dan,

Indeed. I think the following would also be nice for landscape:
- IBIS for daytime handheld shooting
- Lighter tripod compatibility
- WB preview in EVF which can help get a useful reference for later raw based tuning
- association with 300mm PF for great distant landscape photography
- smaller body will give less obstructed access to T/S lens controls

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: D Fuller on August 25, 2018, 11:04:42 pm

...

4.) What's up with that battery life? I'm inclined to think it's a testing quirk or a flaw with the pre-production models. The few people who've played with one suggest it's a testing quirk - they're seeing much better life.  If it's not, the camera is about twice as power hungry as it's competitors - Fujis get about 300-350 shots out of the little NP-W126 batteries (with about half the power of an EN-EL15), and Sonys get in the high 200s from their little battery (like the Fuji one), and I've heard close to 600 from the EN-EL15 size battery.
...

Dan

The battery life “issue” seems to be a tempest in a teapot. Or more accurately, a result of the unfortunate use of CIPA as a battery life standard.

Real-world reports by people who have had hands on the cameras for days, not minutes, report 1500-2000 shots, and an entire day of shooting without exhausting a single battery. Additionally, the movie recording time on Nikon’s spec sheet has been corrected to read 85 minutes rather than the 10-15 minutes it originally listed.

I don’t understand why the CIPA numbers are so unreliable, but it does appear that they are.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 25, 2018, 11:48:54 pm
My guess is that real world usage probably falls in between, I am betting on 600~800 shot per battery charge, which is totally fine.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: shadowblade on August 26, 2018, 01:02:55 am
Shadow do you have any evidence that the amateur landscape shooters are where Sony took market share from Canon or that they took market share from canon at all? Do you really think that with IBiS and great high ISO performance and with increasingly good AF and such things as eye focus that Sony set out to and accomplished the task of taking market share from canon in the landscape segment? Also where does your theory of needing fast glass fit in with landscape photography?

I don't think anyone has actual figures. But the tone on various forums - DPReview, POTN, here and elsewhere - changed significantly between 2012-2014, as did the makeup of full-frame cameras I've seen in the hands of shooters on landscape photography tours and at prominent landscape shooting locations all over the world (I'm using full-frame as a marker to indicate more serious photographers, since many not-so-serious photographers and tourists have a low-end Canon or Nikon crop or an Olympus M43 body).

Prior to 2012, almost everyone used the 5D2 - it was everywhere, and probably still remains the most commercially successful full-frame digital camera released. But a number of comparisons soon emerged between the 5D2 and the early Exmor sensors used in the A900 and D3x, showing much better shadow detail recovery in the Exmor sensors and a disturbing tartan pattern noise in the 5D2's shadows. This did not translate into success for the A900 or D3x - the A900 had a far poorer lens lineup (among other issues), while the D3x was double the weight and triple the price and was generally far more limited when not shooting landscapes or studio shots at base ISO. There was low-level grumbling, but this was generally far outweighed about the grumbling about the AF and other handling features vs the D700 - most talk was about a potential '3D', with the 5D2 sensor and compact body but 1D-type AF (this was later realised in the 5D3). When Nikon released the D800/D800e in 2012 and Canon was unable to maintain the lead in either resolution or overall image quality, the grumbling intensified, but most people still stayed with the 5D2 (without upgrading to the 5D3), since they'd be unable to use their Canon lenses on the D800. This changed with the A7r, helped by Sony's inclusion of a free Metabones adapter with every A7-series body sold. At that time, there were a huge number of 5D2 and 5D3 bodies on sale in the buy & sell boards of every forum (including here). And A7rs started showing up everywhere landscape photographers congregated (Gorak Shep, Namche Bazaar, Patagonia's W-circuit, Erta Ale, among various places I first noticed the trend) - almost universally attached to red-ringed Canon L-series lenses. And the tone on forums changed, too - on landscape sub-forums, Canon appeared to be generally out of favour, with Nikon and Sony being the two main choices, and remains so to this day.

Sony may not have intended to specifically pry landscape shooters away from Canon (although the inclusion of a Metabones adapter with the first two generations of A7-series cameras clearly intended an intention to pry photographers away from other systems - and, with the AF performance of adapted lenses, and AF performance of early-generation A7-series bodies in general, it was never going to be the action photographers they would pry away). But, intended or not, that's what they ended up doing. And it helped them a lot - without the influx of Canon shooters, uptake of E-mount would probably have been much slower, restricted largely to beginners and those looking for a 'compact solution' at first, and the evolution of the mount since then (assuming it wasn't stillborn entirely) would probably have taken a completely different track, focusing on compact, portable lenses rather than the fast, pro-grade f/2.8 zooms and f/1.4 primes we're now getting. It's probably not coincidental that two of the biggest camera stores around here sold almost twice as many A7r bodies as A7 bodies, despite the A7r being more expensive and more specialised. These days, whenever I go to shooting spots popular with landscape photographers (New Zealand most recently, Pakistan and Japan coming up), I see an almost-even mix of Canon, Nikon and Sony among full-frame shooters. Many of the Sonys are now attached to native E-mount lenses, but there are still a large number attached to Canon lenses. Very few of them are attached to Nikon lenses, though, likely due to suitable adapters for Nikon lenses being late to arrive, but also because Nikon shooters have had no particular reason to switch, since Nikon bodies already provided everything they needed.

Quote
Anyway this is about Nikon. I have no idea what their plan is and nor do you. I think but dont know that they are planning a migration path for existing Nikon users. This offering does that imho. Sony needed to break into the market. Nikon need to retain existing Nikon clients. That is working I believe and my evidence for that is Bernard and several friends with Nikon’s who are keen to give mirrorless a try. Two of them have 850s and the mirrorless gives them a more compact option that can be used with existing lenses should they wish to do so.

Obviously Nikon needs to try to retain market share. But intention is not the same as results, and perception is not the same as reality. And it's far too early to say that 'it's working'. There have been negative reviews (of preproduction models) already, mostly centering around AF (apparently similar to A7r2-level), and opinions among Nikon users I know have been mixed to underwhelmed, with most saying 'I'll stick with my SLR' rather than switching to mirrorless. In a way, Nikon is a victim of its own success - the new camera needed to outdo the D850 (probably the best all-round SLR out there, and by no small margin) but mostly fails to do this. If they had never released the D850, or if it had been a lemon, there would probably be more people interested in switching (assuming they didn't switch to Sony first).

The question is not whether Nikon is trying to provide a migration path - they clearly are, so it's not even a question. The more relevant questions are whether a large proportion of current Nikon shooters will follow this migration path, and whether it is even the best migration path to mirrorless for current F-mount users. After all, porting your existing lenses to mirrorless and using an adapter is only one of several possible paths to mirrorless. There is also the option of selling your entire lens lineup now, for a good amount of money, and buying an all-new, all-mirrorless system (in which case Sony would have the clear advantage), or sticking it out with SLR until your lenses become obsolete and are due for replacement anyway (in which case the advantage would be with whichever mirrorless system is dominant in 5-10 years' time). Nikon will clearly try to sell it as a migration path, and the marketing will reflect this. But whether it is the best path remains to be seen, and likely depends on how many F-mount lenses (and which ones) you already have.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: shadowblade on August 26, 2018, 01:12:07 am
I think the dual card issue is really not all that important.  As was noted if a card is bad, it is 99% of the time DOA and doesn't fail while shooting.  Event photographers got along just fine with single card DSLRs since the cameras were invented (I'm unsure at what point dual card cameras came on the market; maybe the last five years??).  Event photographers also don't need lots of megapixels as most of the output will not be printed but kept in digital form.  Two women who used to work for me in the pharma industry are now highly respected event photographers and they have told me there is seldom any request for more than a couple of images being printed.

It kills it for professional use. Event and wedding photographers and photojournalists - everything from backyard parties to large corporate or political events - constitute a large part of the pro market and cannot risk losing key shots or coming back with nothing, no matter how small the chance, even if it's one-in-a-million

The pro market may be much smaller than the amateur/consumer market, but it has marketing influence that belies its actual size. A lot of sales are driven by 'what the pros use', which not only drive sales of that particular piece of gear, but also drives downmarket sales of lesser gear of the same brand. Witness Canon's marketing success through its highly-visible big white lenses and pro bodies at sporting events.

Quote
IMO, the big advantage of mirrorless is in size and weight assuming image quality is not compromised by camera/lens design.  For those of us who are getting up in age and enjoy international travel this advance is great.  I upgraded to a D810 just as the model was nearing the end of the cycle as there was a great discount from B&H.  Because of the investment in Nikon lenses over the years, it was difficult to rationalize switching to a non-Nikon mirrorless system (some of the older Nikon lenses purchased in the 1970-1980 time period continue work well on DSLR bodies once the tab is shaved off and one gets use to manual focusing which for landscape photography is just fine).  Were the Z cameras available a couple of years ago I would have purchased one but now it is a more difficult choice (it would be different if photography was a business and I could amortize it on my tax filing).

The way Sony has moved since the launch of the A7 suggests that this is clearly not the case - at least not with full-frame bodies. If it were all size and weight, they'd be releasing pancake lens after pancake lens, focusing on slower zooms and primes with good optical quality rather than f/2.8 zooms and f/1.4 primes which are just as big as their SLR equivalents.

Those primarily concerned with size and weight have already moved to Olympus M43, which caters to that niche (and does it very well).
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: shadowblade on August 26, 2018, 01:23:41 am
I don’t when they will be released, but I think we will get:
- z8 which is a a9mk II competitor high speed camera
- z9 which is a a9r competitor with 60+ megapixel

I would bet summer 2019 announcement.

Cheers,
Bernard

I suspect they'll move the other direction first - a Z5, designed as an entry-level full-frame mirrorless body, possibly (?probably) undercutting the A7III in both features and price, packaged with a 24-70/4 or 24/105/4 to entice new buyers into the Nikon system. The A7III is 'cheap' only by the standards of Sony full-frame cameras and lenses - there's plenty of room to undercut it with a product aimed at casual shooters, who are only ever going to have one or two lenses, but who want better image quality (or better low-light performance) than a crop body can provide.

There's no point releasing a high-speed action body when you don't have the native lenses to go with it. This won't happen for a few years - probably not until after the Tokyo Olympics (there's no point having a sports camera for the Olympics when you don't have the fast superteles to go with it).

As for the 60+ MP body, that probably won't happen for a few years, for the same reason. If they released it in 2019, it would be several years before enough high-end lenses were available to do it justice, by which time the body would be obsolete and due for replacement by a new generation (?Z9II). You don't buy a top-end body to use it with a rigged-together system of third-party lenses and adapters (F-mount being third-party on a Z-mount camera). And the Sony equivalent could just as easily be the A7r4 (in 2020) as the A9r.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on August 26, 2018, 01:25:09 am
Yes to all of Bernard's points...

I love the IBIS on my X-H1 (the ability to shoot 1/15 critically sharp without a tripod is wonderful). An "X-H1" closely approaching 50 MP (which seems to be the Z7, at least from the early reports)  would be extraordinary (although my guess is that the huge pixel count will mean at least slightly higher shutter speeds - the D8xx series are notorious for requiring surprisingly high shutter speeds, and that's not all shutter shock and mirror damping).

I own only a Series 0 Gitzo tripod, and I don't even carry that on long hikes - 3 lbs extra is just impossible over hundreds of miles. I do carry it on 5-10 mile hikes and short overnights. A big DSLR would mean a Series 2 or 3 tripod, which really wouldn't go overnight at all.

I haven't used WB preview heavily, but I use exposure preview ALL the time - what would an image look like silhouetted by 3 stops of underexposure?

True about the PF...

And the adapter itself actually helps with T/S lenses - it moves the knobs out farther from the body without serving as an extension tube that kills infinity focus.

And glad to hear D Fuller's battery life report...

That means it's about as power hungry (at least shooting video) as an X-H1, and also comparable to the A7rIII. An X-H1 goes about 45-55 minutes on a battery with a bit more than half the power, while the A7rIII is between an hour and a half and two hours on a battery a little bigger than the Nikon one. This will be a 600 shot camera in demanding outdoor use (as is the A7rIII)  - well more than that at an event where the shots per hour are greater and the camera is on less between images.

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 26, 2018, 02:50:19 am
I have never walker more than 65 miles in one go over 45 hours, but I did indeed only carry my D810 + 24-70 f2.8 VR for the first 20 miles and did indeed not even consider packing a tripod. ;) VR/IBIS is indeed expanding the envelope of usage tremendously.

But, when light is needed but a tripod an option, I have had good results with the D850 and H6D-100c with the RSS 1 series kept non extended, especially in e-shutter mode.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: davidgp on August 26, 2018, 03:51:31 am

2.) Unlike any other mirrorless camera, the z6 and z7 take tilt-shift lenses without an unsupported third-party adapter. Yes, it's three pieces, but it's a camera by Nikon, attached to an adapter made for the camera by Nikon, attached to a lens by Nikon... That seems a lot less fishy than Sony camera to Metabones (who the heck is Metabones) adapter to Canon lens. Sure,  Sony or Fuji could release a first-party tilt-shift lens, but nobody has yet, and I haven't seen one on anybody's public roadmap.


I have been using my old Canon 24mm TS-E II lens with the metabones Mark IV T adapter, the one that it is flocked, and it worked quite reliable. Even if I sold the TS-E lens because I was using it in very few ocasiones, the combination worked very well.

I hardly doubt Sony or Fuji will release a Tilt-Shift lenses, but if those are critical for your job, maybe you should wait to see what Canon releases, they have after all the best series of Tilt-Shift lenses in the market right now.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: davidgp on August 26, 2018, 03:55:05 am
I suspect they'll move the other direction first - a Z5, designed as an entry-level full-frame mirrorless body, possibly (?probably) undercutting the A7III in both features and price, packaged with a 24-70/4 or 24/105/4 to entice new buyers into the Nikon system. The A7III is 'cheap' only by the standards of Sony full-frame cameras and lenses - there's plenty of room to undercut it with a product aimed at casual shooters, who are only ever going to have one or two lenses, but who want better image quality (or better low-light performance) than a crop body can provide.

I hardly doubt Nikon will release something lower than the Z6. That will be the entry level camera. With the pass of years it will get lower in price point. Like the A7 II is now the entry level camera for Sony...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: shadowblade on August 26, 2018, 04:15:06 am
I hardly doubt Nikon will release something lower than the Z6. That will be the entry level camera. With the pass of years it will get lower in price point. Like the A7 II is now the entry level camera for Sony...

Depends on the launch price of the Z6. I doubt Nikon can make it as cheap as the A7III - there's a large gap at the bottom end that needs filling.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: davidgp on August 26, 2018, 05:44:27 am
Depends on the launch price of the Z6. I doubt Nikon can make it as cheap as the A7III - there's a large gap at the bottom end that needs filling.

Price for Z6 was already officially released, you can preorder it. It has more or less the same price as the A7 III - https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1431706-REG/nikon_1595_z6_mirrorless_digital_camera.html

Then there are kits with 24-70 and adapter for F lenses.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on August 26, 2018, 07:44:12 am
One thing that has not been mentioned is sensor cleaning.  I assume cleaning a mirrorless sensor is much easier than a DSLR.  Occasionally one does have to do a 'wet' clean of the sensor.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: KLaban on August 26, 2018, 08:01:43 am
Perhaps Nikon would have made a smarter decision if they'd introduced a digital take on their rangefinder S3...

I'm sure we all know they never will and in this case quite rightly so, but wouldn't it be refreshing in this homogenised, risk-free, camera market world, if someone, anyone, offered something, well...refreshing.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: eronald on August 26, 2018, 09:00:06 am
I'm sure we all know they never will and in this case quite rightly so, but wouldn't it be refreshing in this homogenised, risk-free, camera market world, if someone, anyone, offered something, well...refreshing.

Sometimes camera companies make a product the managers like rather than the one marketing tells them to make - look at the Nikon DF. There is definitely a tolerance for crazy designs, and some of them even catch on.

Also, Nikon may like Sony and Panasonic/Leica dip their toes into the very high end luxury compact market. Japanese consumers love super-miniaturised high performance consumer electronics.

Edmund
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 26, 2018, 09:08:54 am
http://www.rossharvey.com/reviews/nikon-z7-review

Yes, he is a Nikon ambassador, but some of the points, in particular the level of quality of the 35mm seems beyond interpretation.

The 100% crop in the corner at f1.8 is Otus like for those who had the chance to work with these.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: KLaban on August 26, 2018, 09:22:51 am
Sometimes camera companies make a product the managers like rather than the one marketing tells them to make - look at the Nikon DF. There is definitely a tolerance for crazy designs, and some of them even catch on.

Also, Nikon may like Sony and Panasonic/Leica dip their toes into the very high end luxury compact market. Japanese consumers love super-miniaturised high performance consumer electronics.

Edmund

And wasn't that a disaster.

;-)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: davidgp on August 26, 2018, 09:54:20 am
One thing that has not been mentioned is sensor cleaning.  I assume cleaning a mirrorless sensor is much easier than a DSLR.  Occasionally one does have to do a 'wet' clean of the sensor.

Having cleaned the sensor of my old Canons and my new Sony A7r II, the complication is the same:

- Canon 5D Mark II. Activate the sensor cleaning mode, by leaving the mirror up, clean the sensor (yes, being more depth, it is easier to touch with the stick one of the walls of the sensor chamber).

- Sony A7r II. Go to the menus, activate sensor cleaning, so it vibrates to remove dust, and then, without turning off the camera, clean it. Since in this way the IBIS is locked and you don't damage it by applying to much force...

I read somewhere that the Nikon Zs also have some point where you lock the sensor IBIS for cleaning.

In other point, not having a mirror in front of it and being the sensor on all the time, it attracts more dust, but, at the same time, since it does not have a mirror, I always have in my bag a blower, each two days or so I just blow the sensor... after nearly one year, it has been quite clean... only moments needed for wet cleaning it is when some stuck dust spot... small ones that you see at f16 or higher... (same with my A7 II that I have for nearly two years... but not very used lately...)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on August 26, 2018, 10:10:12 am
2.) Unlike any other mirrorless camera, the z6 and z7 take tilt-shift lenses without an unsupported third-party adapter. Yes, it's three pieces, but it's a camera by Nikon, attached to an adapter made for the camera by Nikon, attached to a lens by Nikon... That seems a lot less fishy than Sony camera to Metabones (who the heck is Metabones) adapter to Canon lens. Sure,  Sony or Fuji could release a first-party tilt-shift lens, but nobody has yet, and I haven't seen one on anybody's public roadmap.

3.) I don't love the single card slot, but XQD cards are supposed to be a lot more reliable than SD... What if they've got the chances of a card failure down to 1 in 200,000 images? The shutter fails once in 200,000 images.

2. I don't find particularly valuable having all my system on the same brand as long as it works. Specially for MF lenses, mirrorless cameras can be considered universal bodies where almost any previous lens can be adapted. Thanks to Metabones I can use a Canon 24mm tilt shift lens which is better than Nikon's, on a Sony body which is better than Canon's. Moreover I can use a 12mm Laowa lens with Canon mount on a Sony body with the shiftable 1,4x converter to get a high performance 17mm TS lens just for the price of the converter.

3.
I understand your point on reliability and I agree with it, it's a matter of statistical MTBF and redundancy, but your comparison with shutter is very bad: when your shutter gets broken you loose your last shot, while a card failure can mean losing all the previously done shots. I think this is the reason for the complaints.

If XQD cards are much more reliable they make less useful having two slots. Spare wheels on cars are being replaced by emergency wheels (just suitable for some 100Km at low speed) and anti puncture kits because MTBF are nearing 10 years of car usage, nearly a whole car's lifetime.

Regards
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Rob C on August 26, 2018, 11:49:44 am
And wasn't that a disaster.

;-)


I'm not sure if it was or was not, but from my perspective, they screwed if up and, as bad, made it look cheap, even if it was anything but.

The main lure of film cameras was in their design and ergonomics. The pentaprism with interchangeable, split-image screen was the best thing to happen to reflex bodies. How they could have ignored the core value of the F and F2 to such an extent is remarkable. I guess it's the penalty of trying to be all things to all customers.

You're probably right regarding a rangefinder Nikon, but it would have been an interesting development.

Rob
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Manoli on August 26, 2018, 12:05:42 pm
2. I don't find particularly valuable having all my system on the same brand as long as it works. Specially for MF lenses, mirrorless cameras can be considered universal bodies where almost any previous lens can be adapted. Thanks to Metabones ..

This ^^^, again and again!
Add Novoflex into the mix and I doubt there's a mount that can't be usefully converted.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: eronald on August 26, 2018, 03:00:35 pm
This ^^^, again and again!
Add Novoflex into the mix and I doubt there's a mount that can't be usefully converted.

Now if someone would just make the adapter to convert Bernard's Zeiss Otus to his iPhone X , Bernard would own the perfect camera!

Edmund
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: hubell on August 26, 2018, 03:14:43 pm
Whenever there is huge buildup to the release of a major new camera, with the internet fora in a tizzy with anticipation, what inevitably happens when the camera is actually released is that the internet fora again light up with negativity about some feature that is missing or some spec. This becomes THE DEALBREAKER for all those who were never really going to buy the camera in the first place. They just couldn’t bear the idea that there would be a new camera out there that made them feel inadequate about what they already owned. So, they need THE DEALBREAKER. In the case of the Z7, we now have it. ONE CARD SLOT.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: KLaban on August 26, 2018, 04:21:24 pm
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ7.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Manoli on August 26, 2018, 04:22:49 pm
Now if someone would just make the adapter to convert Bernard's Zeiss Otus to his iPhone X , Bernard would own the perfect camera!

Edmund,

A teenage newbie turns to his best friend, and asks for advice in choosing his first camera. “Best go to the guys in the know” says the ‘bf’ and points him to LuLa and this thread.
Newb reads the thread.
Newb thanks his ‘bf’ for the best advice he could have ever given him.
Newb buys the iPhoneX.

On a more serious note, Bernard doesn’t need an adapter for his Otus.
Just hold the Otus in one hand, the iPhone in the other , blow Siri a kiss and she does the rest.

M
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Telecaster on August 26, 2018, 04:56:25 pm
One of my fav lenses on the Sonys is a late 1930s uncoated Zeiss 35/4.5 Orthometar. It's small, can autofocus via Techart adapter (and at a much closer minimum distance than when used on a Contax RF) and delivers a look unlike any modern lens. Since it uses an early retrofocus design it also plays well, unlike most wider rangefinder lenses, with the Sony's sensor stack.

Wonder how thick the Z's stack is…

-Dave-
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 26, 2018, 05:25:39 pm
Whenever there is huge buildup to the release of a major new camera, with the internet fora in a tizzy with anticipation, what inevitably happens when the camera is actually released is that the internet fora again light up with negativity about some feature that is missing or some spec. This becomes THE DEALBREAKER for all those who were never really going to buy the camera in the first place. They just couldn’t bear the idea that there would be a new camera out there that made them feel inadequate about what they already owned. So, they need THE DEALBREAKER. In the case of the Z7, we now have it. ONE CARD SLOT.

That’s an interesting analysis.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 26, 2018, 05:36:17 pm
https://www.dpreview.com/opinion/9336220495/the-nikon-z-is-a-big-step-for-nikon-but-they-need-to-keep-being-brave

Pretty much echoes how I feel.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: eronald on August 26, 2018, 05:57:55 pm
Edmund,

A teenage newbie turns to his best friend, and asks for advice in choosing his first camera. “Best go to the guys in the know” says the ‘bf’ and points him to LuLa and this thread.
Newb reads the thread.
Newb thanks his ‘bf’ for the best advice he could have ever given him.
Newb buys the iPhoneX.

On a more serious note, Bernard doesn’t need an adapter for his Otus.
Just hold the Otus in one hand, the iPhone in the other , blow Siri a kiss and she does the rest.

M

I think you're better at being serious than joking :)
Don't you agree that a hollowed out X1D would make a perfect ergonomic camera-trigger case for the iPhone?
I think that body is actually a sidepproduct of those wonderful handles which Hassy used to make.

https://petapixel.com/2013/08/04/a-review-of-the-hasselblad-stellar/

Edmund
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BJL on August 26, 2018, 06:22:17 pm
... when the camera is actually released is that the internet fora again light up with negativity about some feature that is missing or some spec. This becomes THE DEALBREAKER ..
Indeed; one of my favorite “Z” comments at DPReview was
“no hot shoe cover, no deal”
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: 32BT on August 26, 2018, 06:40:30 pm
https://www.dpreview.com/opinion/9336220495/the-nikon-z-is-a-big-step-for-nikon-but-they-need-to-keep-being-brave

Pretty me echoes how I feel.

Cheers,
Bernard


Could you please elaborate? How exactly is this initial offering even remotely brave?


Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 26, 2018, 07:09:36 pm
... negativity about some feature that is missing or some spec. This becomes THE DEALBREAKER for all those who were never really going to buy the camera in the first place...

Otherwise known as tire-kickers.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Manoli on August 26, 2018, 07:21:04 pm
I think you're better at being serious than joking :)

I think you're right. :)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: chez on August 26, 2018, 07:23:13 pm
Whenever there is huge buildup to the release of a major new camera, with the internet fora in a tizzy with anticipation, what inevitably happens when the camera is actually released is that the internet fora again light up with negativity about some feature that is missing or some spec. This becomes THE DEALBREAKER for all those who were never really going to buy the camera in the first place. They just couldn’t bear the idea that there would be a new camera out there that made them feel inadequate about what they already owned. So, they need THE DEALBREAKER. In the case of the Z7, we now have it. ONE CARD SLOT.

Well it was Nikon's hype machine that got the frenzy going with terms like revolutionary camera...and then release nothing revolutionary at all.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 26, 2018, 07:57:30 pm
Well it was Nikon's hype machine that got the frenzy going with terms like revolutionary camera...and then release nothing revolutionary at all.

It really depends on what the expectation is.

As far as I am concerned, my main expectation was better image quality in a compact form factor and a platform (a mount) that won't be limiting 5 years down the road. And it looks like we may be getting that. That what truly matters (to me at least).

For the rest it seems like a highly usable, perfectly sized, well implemented mirrorless camera with good AF, excellent video (possibly overall best in class among FF DSLRs based on initial reports),... in other words not much that should come in the way of achieving the image quality potential of the platform. As a photographer, that's what matters to me.

As a geek, I would have preferred a levitation-capable-glow-in-the dark-plugged-into-my-mind-no-need-to-press-the-shutter camera of course.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 26, 2018, 08:05:37 pm
Could you please elaborate? How exactly is this initial offering even remotely brave?

Yes, certainly:
- new mount after 60 years on the previous one - imagine the amount of accountability of the chief engineer who signed off on that design
- target directly the highest end of mirrorless (from a technology standpoint - let's put aside some features missing such as double card) - go back to the start of this thread and read the comments I got when I mentioned the possibility 4 months ago that Nikon may attempt that...
- simultaneous release of many new technological blocks (for Nikon that is, FF mirrorless AF, IBIS, 10 bits video, EVF,...)
- simultaneous release of 2 cameras
- sharing of a lens roadmap - from a Nikon company culture, this is unheard of - I know, sounds like a small thing, but if you have ever experienced the way companies evolve, the challenge it is to change these things - especially in Japan based on my 20 years experience working with Japanese companies
- definition of a new S line of lenses that they call "best in class", here again, this is a breakthrough for a company that has never marketed their product in the past

If you have any experience of product development and the corporate world, you'll understand why this is brave, and I have to praise DPreview for understanding this.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: eronald on August 26, 2018, 08:40:50 pm
I like this thread - I'm thinking of this wonderful glut of used Nikon D850 bodies that's due to hit the used market.

Edmund
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 26, 2018, 08:53:28 pm
I like this thread - I'm thinking of this wonderful glut of used Nikon D850 bodies that's due to hit the used market.

We'll see. I may end up keeping the Z7 and D5 and sell the D850. It will depend on how the Z7 performs in real world. ;)

I have a one week sailing trip coming up in November that should be a perfect chance to test the Z7 in a demanding environment for IBIS, battery life, weather sealing,... last year I used the D850 + 24-70 f2.8 VR + 70-200 f2.8. I would probably take the Z7 + 24-70 f4 S + 35mm f1.8 S + 70-200 f2.8 E FL this year. About the same size overall, but a brigher/higher quallity lens for low light shooting.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4455/37214842030_0a3808d4e6_h.jpg)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system: evolution vs revolution
Post by: BJL on August 26, 2018, 09:25:14 pm
Well it was Nikon's hype machine that got the frenzy going with terms like revolutionary camera...and then release nothing revolutionary at all.
I agree that Nikon Z is a good and only slightly risky evolutionary step rather than anything revolutionary, but then again maybe I have a weird idea of what is and is not revolutionary. Amongst the more worthily revolutionary things that lie behind the Z system, and the companies who first bought them to cameras:
- digital SLRs (Kodak, and arguably Nikon for going beyond "Franken-cameras")
- sensor-based stabilization (Konica-Minolta)
- active pixel CMOS sensors (Canon)
- Live view (Olympus and partner Panasonic, initially in Four Thirds DSLRs)
- mirrorless system cameras (Panasonic and Olympus with Micro Four Thirds)
- an EVF in live view cameras (Panasonic)
- column-parallel ADC on CMOS sensors (Sony)
- on-sensor PDAF, mostly closing the gap with SLRs on AF performance (correction: Nikon, not Sony?)
- five axis IBIS, clearly establishing IBIS as superior to lens-based IS (Olympus)
and maybe
- abandoning essentially all backward compatibility for the sake of a new modernized lens mount and system (several times: Canon EOS, Olympus Four Thirds, Fujifilm X system, etc.)

What strikes me as most clearly mere evolution, not revolution, is doing something that has been done for some years by several camera makers, but in a different format. And yet some seem to think of Sony's moving mirrorless to 36x24mm as revolutionary, rather than its more legitimate innovation(s) listed above.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 26, 2018, 09:28:03 pm
- on-sensor PDAF, mostly closing the gap with SLRs on AF performance (Sony, I think)

I believe that was Nikon with the 1 series, wasn't it (sept 2011)? Sensor was manufactured by Aptina if I recall correctly.

You could add:
- optical image stabilization (Nikon in a compact camera)
- SLR video - Canon 5D MkII (although the nikon D90 was in fact announced a few days before)
- Usable video AF - Canon with their dual pixel
- eye AF - Sony
- lens motor AF - Canon USM
- near perfect optics - Zeiss with the Otus

But yes, agreed, the a7 mostly packaged existing technologies in a compact form factor and then Sony did iterative improvements from then on. I personally think that this is still innovation from a product standpoint, but yes, indeed not a revolution from a technology standpoint.

Now, an evolutionary product may result in near revolutionary improvements for some categories of users.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: dseelig on August 26, 2018, 11:59:29 pm
Tony Northrup jsut trashed the af in the Z7 and it's frames per second slower without a battery grip n ot quite sony killer yet.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 27, 2018, 12:05:32 am
Tony Northrup jsut trashed the af in the Z7 and it's frames per second slower without a battery grip n ot quite sony killer yet.

Yes, I saw that. I asked them whether they reviewed their findings with Nikon engineers on the AF/IBIS topic, but they have not answered till date.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: 32BT on August 27, 2018, 02:39:25 am
Yes, certainly:
- new mount after 60 years on the previous one - imagine the amount of accountability of the chief engineer who signed off on that design
We all understood it required a new mount. They have the experience to make a relevant mount, they get to draw on a blank slate. Nobody says it needs to remain relevant for another 60 years. That wasn't brave, and the final result was hopefully a team effort.

- target directly the highest end of mirrorless (from a technology standpoint - let's put aside some features missing such as double card) - go back to the start of this thread and read the comments I got when I mentioned the possibility 4 months ago that Nikon may attempt that...
Well, maybe you were brave mentioning it, but i think most people (not necessarily participating in this thread) were expecting 850 image quality in a slightly less capable package. And guess what we got? Some were (and some still seem to be) expecting a more capable package because, i don't know, mirrorlessmagicdust, but those people don't seem to realize the tour-the-force that the 850 really is.

- simultaneous release of many new technological blocks (for Nikon that is, FF mirrorless AF, IBIS, 10 bits video, EVF,...)
Yes, but very much proven technologies, again necessary directions like the lensmount. Nothing brave happened here.

- simultaneous release of 2 cameras
This strategy has been followed ever since the speed vs mpx conundrum. In fact the brave (but stupid) thing to do is trying to combine all disciplines in a single camera. It's clear that we now may even get a split into 3 specialties, if Sony is anything to go by.

- sharing of a lens roadmap - from a Nikon company culture, this is unheard of - I know, sounds like a small thing, but if you have ever experienced the way companies evolve, the challenge it is to change these things - especially in Japan based on my 20 years experience working with Japanese companies
- definition of a new S line of lenses that they call "best in class", here again, this is a breakthrough for a company that has never marketed their product in the past
So, if a Japanese company is finally coming to terms with the western ideal of marketing practices it is now called brave?

If you have any experience of product development and the corporate world, you'll understand why this is brave, and I have to praise DPreview for understanding this.
Dpr staff are databasegatekeepers, technophiles that are neither cameramanufacturer nor photographer. They might want to stick to having an opinion about what they actually understand as opposed to being as arrogant as telling an established, long time cameramanufacturer how they perceive their mirrorless strategy.

The only correct observation in that article was the opening up of the mount to third parties, that would be brave, but we already discussed this here and how it may actually be the case already, just under contract which allows Nikon to more-or-less control the quality of third party offerings.

In my opinion calling this effort brave is utter nonsense. They are distinctly "me too" offerings which is fine, but very, very safe indeed.

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: davidgp on August 27, 2018, 02:48:55 am
Yes, I saw that. I asked them whether they reviewed their findings with Nikon engineers on the AF/IBIS topic, but they have not answered till date.

Cheers,
Bernard

Although I like them... they make nice videos... I tend not to trust them in reviews. I always have the feeling they go to much in exaggeration of problems to get views... I suspect their problems are the same pointed out by DPReview... nothing more... nothing less...


http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 27, 2018, 03:07:44 am
In my opinion calling this effort brave is utter nonsense. They are distinctly "me too" offerings which is fine, but very, very safe indeed.

What would have been a brave effort from Nikon according to you?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on August 27, 2018, 03:12:16 am
As I have said I think it’s a very good start. Not sure about revolutionary. Weather proofing is my favorite feature over the Sony. I guess it will push Sony along a bit which is what I was hoping for.

I hope Canon do at least as good a job. I hope Canon put dual card slots into their camera. Not because it’s a big deal for me but so we dont have to go over all that again.  :)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: 32BT on August 27, 2018, 03:38:00 am
What would have been a brave effort from Nikon according to you?

Cheers,
Bernard

Businesswise: circular ownership
Technologywise: modularisation

I personally believe the integration of video is not our finest hour in digital photography, but if that's where the industry is going in the foreseeable future, you might also try to radically redesign the ergonomics for that considering ergonomics is one of the fortés of Nikon. New separately joined rotating handgrip that allows comfortable low or high holding, detachable viewfinder (even if just wired) that attaches to glasses, that type of thing.

Mind you, considering the specialisation in separate bodies currently happening seems to indicate to me that we will return to a situation where stills and videos are separate devices.

And that perhaps brings us to a relevant generalisation: there's precious little need for an slr style body under a lot of circumstances.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 27, 2018, 03:40:55 am
Businesswise: circular ownership

Please forgive my ignorance, could you please elaborate on this?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: 32BT on August 27, 2018, 03:56:16 am
Please forgive my ignorance, could you please elaborate on this?

Cheers,
Bernard

Perhaps we could think of it as a subscription type model (oh horror, i can't believe i just said that) where the goodies remain the property (read: responsibility) of the manufacturer so that the raw materials will be recycled at end-of-lifetime.

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 27, 2018, 04:08:58 am
Perhaps we could think of it as a subscription type model (oh horror, i can't believe i just said that) where the goodies remain the property (read: responsibility) of the manufacturer so that the raw materials will be recycled at end-of-lifetime.

I see. I personally either re-sell or send for re-cycling all the electronic equipment I use, but I understand the point.

I am not sure that camera buyers are ready for this kind of business model, but this is for sure innovative.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on August 27, 2018, 04:34:03 am
We'll see. I may end up keeping the Z7 and D5 and sell the D850. It will depend on how the Z7 performs in real world. ;)

If I may ask Bernard, until yesterday I read you claiming all time the D850 to be the best FF option in the market, even over the A7R III. Pretty much in Thom Hogan's commenting line (i.e. without much rationale to support his choice). Now you are becoming a Z7 early adopter, even suggesting you could end up replacing your D850 by a camera few people have even put their hands on.

Is this passion? you expect the Z7 filling some important gap you found on the D850 but never talked about?.

I feel really curious.

Regards


Enviado desde mi PRA-LX1 mediante Tapatalk

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 27, 2018, 05:02:04 am
If I may ask Bernard, until yesterday I read you claiming all time the D850 to be the best FF option in the market, even over the A7R III. Pretty much in Thom Hogan's commenting line (i.e. without much rationale to support his choice). Now you are becoming a Z7 early adopter, even suggesting you could end up replacing your D850 by a camera few people have even put their hands on.

Is this passion? you expect the Z7 filling some important gap you found on the D850 but never talked about?.

No, the D850 remains an amazing camera, no issues at all with it. I believe it is overall a more complete camera than the Z7 but probably not by much. The only moment I don't use it is when I need more speed or even more AF-C accuracy or when I expect very low light situations, and then the D5 comes into play.

I have written many times that I find the D850 to be the best DSLR, I don't think I wrote that much about it vs the a7rIII that I think is an excellent body. But as an owner of F mount lenses, the D850 is indeed currently the best FF option for me since I believe we will agree that the performance of the D850 and a7rIII are close. In the limited time I had with the Sony, I had the feeling that it was not yet at D850 level in terms of subject tracking, but pretty close.

But I have been considering for a long time to try out a top mirrorless body with the a7rIII being my top candidate till date. There are times when a more compact option would be convenient and I have been intrigued by the benefits of the EVF, even if I still far prefer the OVF experience from what I have seen with the Sony. We'll have to see whether the Z7 changes that. I would also like to dip my toes in some video shooting (at a very amateur family level) and the video AF of the D850 is not usable.

On top of this, what attracts me most with the Z7, or I should say the Z mount, is the promise of very good lenses while keeping the benefit of my existing lenses line-up. I have been impressed by what I have seen from the H1D/GFX lenses, and I believe that the Nikon S glass has the potential to deliver the same value on 35mm mirrorless. I believe that I have been pretty consistent in my quest for good glass that has taken me towards Otus and Rodenstock options at the cost of convenience and... price. ;) I have seen good results from some Sony alpha lenses and some are outstanding with zero reservation (the 85mm GM comes to mind), but I was less impressed by the more compact options. The 55mm f1.8 is very good but I can't say I found the rendering exciting. But I could probably live with those. But the prospect of having to change over my many F mount glass is a bit daunting, a Nikon solution would be easier for several reasons, as long as the performance is close. And with the Z, I believe that we will get better lenses. Test results will tell of course.

I have not said that I would replace my D850 by a Z7, I wrote that I would take a decision after several months of usage. It could go either way. The financial risk will be pretty limited considering that both cameras will still be in high demand by the time I take a decision.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on August 27, 2018, 05:29:27 am
I have written many times that I find the D850 to be the best DSLR, I don't think I wrote that much about it vs the a7rIII that I think is an excellent body. But as an owner of F mount lenses, the D850 is indeed currently the best FF option for me since I believe we will agree that the performance of the D850 and a7rIII are close. In the limited time I had with the Sony, I had the feeling that it was not yet at D850 level in terms of subject tracking, but pretty close.

That's reasonable. If you allow me an advice when judging the EVF, wait till you have used it for some time, getting used to all of its benefits (realtime exposure and WB, zoom for MF, checking your shots without having to look at the LCD,...), and then go back to the OVF. I actually realized the advantages of the EVF once I needed to use my DSLR again, and then I knew I'd never go back to DSLR.

Regards
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Manoli on August 27, 2018, 05:47:51 am
No, the D850 remains an amazing camera, no issues at all with it. The only moment I don't use it is when I need more speed or even more AF-C accuracy [...] In the limited time I had with the Sony, I had the feeling that it was not yet at D850 level in terms of subject tracking, but pretty close.

Regarding superlative AF, excerpts below from a commentary by Kenneth Jarecke

https://medium.com/@kennethjarecke/shutterbugs-pixel-peepers-and-others-who-annoy-me-9924593a8ac4
https://medium.com/@kennethjarecke

Quote
When it comes to looking at pictures, the first thing that matters is the picture. Is it any good? Does it trigger a receptor in one’s brain that triggers something else? That’s what good pictures do [...] I don’t care what camera system you use. Nikon, Canon, Sony, Fuji… I just don’t care. Never have, never will. Knock yourself out, I mean literally, for real.

(https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1000/1*zEISHhrJT-f-_3-mMfldjg.jpeg)

“Taken with a Sony Alpha a7R III on July 4, 2018. Images like this from a Montana rodeo would be much more difficult to shoot using DSLR cameras.”

I used this eye focus feature to lock onto and track the horse when it was about fifty yards away, at which point the beast was still below the horizon line, meaning no separation from the background, and a long throw with a wide angle (35mm) lens. That’s a crazy level of sophistication for a camera to successfully pull off, but it did.

And if that wasn't enough,

Quote
Talking about gear is the kind of stuff that drives me nuts. Sure, there’s a time and a place for it, but my dear photography friends, that time is not “always” and the place is not “everywhere on the entire internet”.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 27, 2018, 07:23:44 am
Sounds impressive!

Hard to tell how other cameras would perform without an in situ comparison, but it does sound impressive.

Now, the ability to track consists in many different aspects, including the ability to follow complex rear/front and sidewide motion, the ability to do so at different levels of illumination,...

Kind of ironic that you use his brand agnostic article to promote the performance of one brand over an another don't you think? ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 27, 2018, 07:59:46 am
That's reasonable. If you allow me an advice when judging the EVF, wait till you have used it for some time, getting used to all of its benefits (realtime exposure and WB, zoom for MF, checking your shots without having to look at the LCD,...), and then go back to the OVF. I actually realized the advantages of the EVF once I needed to use my DSLR again, and then I knew I'd never go back to DSLR.

Thanks for the tip Guillermo, much appreciated!

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Manoli on August 27, 2018, 08:42:21 am
Kind of ironic that you use his brand agnostic article to promote the performance of one brand over an another don't you think? ;)

No, I don't.
It wasn't an article promoting one brand over another.
It was an article illustrating the usefulness of an MILC over a DSLR in those particular circumstances
If you'd read the full blog post, you'd have understood that - and that's coming from a man whose covered both Olympics and Gulf war(s) - so, IMO, he's got the street cred to go with the post.

Also, I'm not promoting any brand - but I do use mirrorless, in preference to DSLR's, for my purposes.

Bernard,

I don't know what you're getting so futzed about. You should be amongst the happiest people on the planet. Even I'm elated for you!  Get the Z7 plus adapter - you've got an abundance of exceptional lenses to try it out on (for a relative minimal outlay) and you'll soon be in hog heaven ... As they say 'live in the present' and don't worry about who is going to produce the 'the best image quality system in existence in the 35mm world' which , for sure, will still be many years away.

Best,
M
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 27, 2018, 08:47:02 am
No, I don't.
It wasn't an article promoting one brand over another.
It was an article illustrating the usefulness of an MILC over a DSLR in those particular circumstances
If you'd read the full blog post, you'd have understood that - and that's coming from a man whose covered both Olympics and Gulf war(s) - so, IMO, he's got the street cred to go with the post.

Also, I'm not promoting any brand - but I do use mirrorless, in preference to DSLR's, for my purposes.

Bernard,

I don't know what you're getting so futzed about. You should be amongst the happiest person on the planet. Get the Z7 plus adapter - you've got an abundance of exceptional lenses to try it out on (for a relative minimal outlay) and you'll soon be in hog heaven ... As they say 'live in the present' and don't worry about who is going to produce the 'the best image quality system in existence in the 35mm world' which , for sure, will still be many, many years away.

I am perfectly happy, I was just messing with you a bit. I understand that the blog post wasn't about one brand, your usage of the blog post appeared to be, but I guess I got that wrong. ;) For the record, I answered a question from Guillermo about the a7rIII, it was absolutely not my intention to discuss non Nikon cameras here.

This being said, this isn't the object of this thread, and won't prevent me from sleeping, but which system offers the best image quality is a perfectly legitimate question. And I don't think that the answer "they are all the same" is likely to be the right one.

If your point is that the photographer is more important than the camera, I fully agree.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: chez on August 27, 2018, 09:40:39 am
It really depends on what the expectation is.

As far as I am concerned, my main expectation was better image quality in a compact form factor and a platform (a mount) that won't be limiting 5 years down the road. And it looks like we may be getting that. That what truly matters (to me at least).

For the rest it seems like a highly usable, perfectly sized, well implemented mirrorless camera with good AF, excellent video (possibly overall best in class among FF DSLRs based on initial reports),... in other words not much that should come in the way of achieving the image quality potential of the platform. As a photographer, that's what matters to me.

As a geek, I would have preferred a levitation-capable-glow-in-the dark-plugged-into-my-mind-no-need-to-press-the-shutter camera of course.

Cheers,
Bernard

Sure that's fine for you Bernard...but what is so revolutionary about what you mentioned. As far as image quality goes...do you really think you can tell the difference in prints between images shot with a anion, Canon or Sony...or is this "revolutionary hype" as well?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 27, 2018, 09:58:18 am
Sure that's fine for you Bernard...but what is so revolutionary about what you mentioned. As far as image quality goes...do you really think you can tell the difference in prints between images shot with a anion, Canon or Sony...or is this "revolutionary hype" as well?

I don’t think I have used the term revolutionary to speak about the Z7.

I think that progress can still be made in optical image quality and that the Z system is going to move the bar forward.

People spend lots of money to get MF image quality, there are applications where that makes a difference in a world when prints that aren’t 40x60 inch feel tiny.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: eronald on August 27, 2018, 10:08:01 am
Clearly Bernard feels that a lighter camera would disappear into the background and allow him to use his photographic skills more "transparently".
Even $2  humble graphite pencils are very different to use, and finding the right one can make a huge difference.

Let's see what happens when he gets his new Nikon MILC or whatever you call its mirrorless ilk.

btw, those are nice images you chose to post.

Edmund





No, I don't.
It wasn't an article promoting one brand over another.
It was an article illustrating the usefulness of an MILC over a DSLR in those particular circumstances
If you'd read the full blog post, you'd have understood that - and that's coming from a man whose covered both Olympics and Gulf war(s) - so, IMO, he's got the street cred to go with the post.

Also, I'm not promoting any brand - but I do use mirrorless, in preference to DSLR's, for my purposes.

Bernard,

I don't know what you're getting so futzed about. You should be amongst the happiest people on the planet. Even I'm elated for you!  Get the Z7 plus adapter - you've got an abundance of exceptional lenses to try it out on (for a relative minimal outlay) and you'll soon be in hog heaven ... As they say 'live in the present' and don't worry about who is going to produce the 'the best image quality system in existence in the 35mm world' which , for sure, will still be many years away.

Best,
M
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: D White on August 27, 2018, 12:10:44 pm
I guess it's all part of the process, but it is amazing how forty pages later we can still slice and dice and rehash the topic of a new piece of equipment.

Perhaps it is due to these releases being seen as paradigm shift. Perhaps there is angst as to which way to go with further equipment choices. Perhaps we are never satisfied at what we have already and fear being left behind.

Regardless of underlying cause, it is fascinating to read through all of the back and forth banter. Some is very useful and well thought out while some less so.

When Canon finally has a release, one metric to judge it's success is by whether it obtains forty plus pages on a forum.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 27, 2018, 12:19:08 pm
... When Canon finally has a release, one metric to judge it's success is by whether it obtains forty plus pages on a forum.

No way, Canon doesn't have Bernard in its corner ;)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on August 27, 2018, 12:21:48 pm
No way, Canon doesn't have Bernard in its corner ;)

My thoughts exactly.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Manoli on August 27, 2018, 12:27:26 pm
Thanks, Edmund.
I'm assuming you're referring to the Instag ones ?
and not the shots of my cameo at a Montana Rodeo ...  ( just jesting, boys, just jesting .. 'twas not I)

Best,
M

Clearly Bernard feels that a lighter camera would disappear into the background and allow him to use his photographic skills more "transparently".
Even $2  humble graphite pencils are very different to use, and finding the right one can make a huge difference.
Let's see what happens when he gets his new Nikon MILC or whatever you call its mirrorless ilk.

btw, those are nice images you chose to post.

Edmund
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 27, 2018, 04:30:21 pm
No way, Canon doesn't have Bernard in its corner ;)

The questions is more how much Shadowblade will dislike the new Canon isn’t it? ;)

This thread has been a lot more about people writing about what the new Nikon isn’t rather than about what the camera is and can do. You guys last 5-6 posts are a good example of that btw (all pencils/cameras are the same,...).

I personnally think that the Z mount is as big a thing in photographic gear as can be. And the only remaining event of similar impact will indeed be Canon’s mirrorless FF intro. Now, it is totally fine to not care about camera equipment but then why bother commenting here?

Chees,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 27, 2018, 09:38:29 pm
An interesting article from Thom about the marketing failures at Nikon in relation with the Z launch:

http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/reader-questions-about-the.html

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 27, 2018, 09:40:51 pm
An another one about the Z lenses:

http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/the-z-lenses.html

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on August 28, 2018, 12:53:35 am
So far, I haven't heard of Canon going in the direction of a high-resolution body - the rumors I've seen are more in the Z6/A7III range - a fast body with good resolution, but not a resolution monster.

While Sony has the advantage of the most extensive line of native lenses (not counting Fuji, who uses a different sensor size, but the excellent lenses are designed for the sensor size), Nikon has a first-party adapter that supports a very wide range of lenses. The previous poster who said 6mm to 800mm actually understated the point. I don't know of anything wider than 6mm with a 220 degree field of view, but 800mm is just getting started :)

How about this?
https://www.popphoto.com/gear/2012/07/insane-zoom-nikkor-1200-1700mm
About the longest non-mirror telephoto ever made for photography...

If a mirror lens is acceptable, how's this F-mount option (basically an 8" astronomical telescope with a built-in F-mount)
https://www.thephoblographer.com/2018/01/03/rare-reflex-nikkor-2000mm-f-11-largest-nikon-lens-ever-made/

This isn't first party, and is probably cheating because the F-mount is buried inside one of the spectrographs, which may not still be in use, but this technically has an F-mount on it (and would be hard to beat).  The primary camera never had a standard lens mount and went from large-format glass plate to large-format film to custom CCD... No word on how that F-mount in the spectrograph would work with a Z-mount adapter...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hale_Telescope.   :) :) :) :)

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on August 28, 2018, 05:30:19 am

I personnally think that the Z mount is as big a thing in photographic gear as can be. And the only remaining event of similar impact will indeed be Canon’s mirrorless FF intro. Now, it is totally fine to not care about camera equipment but then why bother commenting here?

Chees,
Bernard

I think so too, the new Nikon mount is indeed big news. I am actually surprised that Lula has no coverage in the front page, must be the only photo-related site not talking about it?

Anyway, the new Z system is big news, but all summed up, IMO the Z6 and Z7 are almost copy cats of Sony's Alpha 7/9 system; why try to change a winning formula?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: 32BT on August 28, 2018, 05:32:10 am
http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2018/08/youtube-hot-take-ace-reviews-breakfast.html
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 28, 2018, 05:44:55 am
I think so too, the new Nikon mount is indeed big news. I am actually surprised that Lula has no coverage in the front page, must be the only photo-related site not talking about it?

Anyway, the new Z system is big news, but all summed up, IMO the Z6 and Z7 are almost copy cats of Sony's Alpha 7/9 system; why try to change a winning formula?

Yes, there are positioned very close featurewise indeed. Actual usage may reveal quite different experiences though.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 28, 2018, 05:48:13 am
http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2018/08/youtube-hot-take-ace-reviews-breakfast.html

Brilliant!

Still... only one card slot...  ;D

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Rob C on August 28, 2018, 06:14:46 am
So far, I haven't heard of Canon going in the direction of a high-resolution body - the rumors I've seen are more in the Z6/A7III range - a fast body with good resolution, but not a resolution monster.

While Sony has the advantage of the most extensive line of native lenses (not counting Fuji, who uses a different sensor size, but the excellent lenses are designed for the sensor size), Nikon has a first-party adapter that supports a very wide range of lenses. The previous poster who said 6mm to 800mm actually understated the point. I don't know of anything wider than 6mm with a 220 degree field of view, but 800mm is just getting started :)

How about this?
https://www.popphoto.com/gear/2012/07/insane-zoom-nikkor-1200-1700mm
About the longest non-mirror telephoto ever made for photography...

If a mirror lens is acceptable, how's this F-mount option (basically an 8" astronomical telescope with a built-in F-mount)
https://www.thephoblographer.com/2018/01/03/rare-reflex-nikkor-2000mm-f-11-largest-nikon-lens-ever-made/

This isn't first party, and is probably cheating because the F-mount is buried inside one of the spectrographs, which may not still be in use, but this technically has an F-mount on it (and would be hard to beat).  The primary camera never had a standard lens mount and went from large-format glass plate to large-format film to custom CCD... No word on how that F-mount in the spectrograph would work with a Z-mount adapter...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hale_Telescope.   :) :) :) :)


Not ony acceptable, but if you put focus intentionally in the "wrong" place, you have yet another tool with which to get into fantasy.

http://www.roma57.com/uploads/4/2/8/7/4287956/3061173_orig.jpg

Reading all these comments makes it appear as if nobody is interested in anything except razor blades.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on August 28, 2018, 07:31:52 am
I am actually surprised that Lula has no coverage in the front page,

Are you? Really?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on August 28, 2018, 08:12:09 am
Thom on conspiracy theories:

http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/conspiracy-theories-and-the.html

Liked the one about sub-standard senors.

Also nice commentary on the one slot issue:

http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/the-card-failure-issue.html
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on August 28, 2018, 11:14:34 am
I am actually surprised that Lula has no coverage in the front page,

Are you? Really?

Yes I am. Nikon are a reputable and respectable camera company, and are introducing a new mount (I don't count the failed CX one) after sticking with 60-odd years with the old one.

They seem to be readying themselves for the future in imaging.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on August 28, 2018, 12:10:10 pm
Yes I am. Nikon are a reputable and respectable camera company, and are introducing a new mount (I don't count the failed CX one) after sticking with 60-odd years with the old one.

They seem to be readying themselves for the future in imaging.

All true but Lula is quite Sony-centric so ignoring a major innovation from Nikon does not surprise me.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: HSakols on August 28, 2018, 12:48:40 pm
I know many are excited to have a Nikon Mirrorless that they can use their old glass with.  I'm curious what old glass would you want to use on your new Nikon mirrorless?  I also have a bunch of old lenses including the 35mm f2, 85 1.8 AF, 50mm 1.8 AFD, 200mm micro 2.8 AI.  I don't really see using any of these lenses except maybe the 85 1.8 that focuses quite slowly.  Then again having a Nikon mirrorless with the 24-70 f4 zoom would be the perfect landscape backpacking setup. 
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 28, 2018, 01:13:04 pm
... a major innovation from Nikon...

Innovation!? It is a lens mount, for god's sake. Had they made it square, however... ;)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: hubell on August 28, 2018, 01:18:49 pm
Then again having a Nikon mirrorless with the 24-70 f4 zoom would be the perfect landscape backpacking setup.

Yes, it could be, and for travel/street photography as well. That new Nikon zoom may be an exceptional lens. We will see. We do know that Sony's  24-70mm f/4 zoom is very mediocre. Sony headed off and invested its R&D in producing a top quality but big, heavy f/2.8 24-70 Grand Master Flash lens. Same story with the 70-200 zooms.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on August 28, 2018, 02:48:07 pm
I'm excited about it precisely because it is a potentially perfect landscape backpacking setup. I've been using Fuji for years, happily, but nearly double the pixel count plus ISO 64 plus an extra stop or more of DR is tempting... The Nikon will probably achieve its peak DR at a lower ISO - the newest XTrans stay right with the D850 at ISO 200 (base on the Fuji), but you get a full extra stop by taking the D850 to ISO 100, and even more by going to ISO 64.

 It also has a bigger battery, which is nice for two reasons. Charging individual batteries in the field is a pain - you not only need enough energy (from a battery pack,a solar panel or a wall outlet on a trip to town) to charge the battery, you need to hook up each battery, and that is a pain when you might have seven of them for a weeklong section. The only Fuji USB chargers I've ever found are one battery at a time or too big to backpack with (Nitecore has just released a small, lightweight dual charger for the Fuji batteries, but I haven't seen it for sale). There IS a dual-slot Nikon EN-EL15 charger (weighs 2.5 ozs) available from Nitecore, which is the equivalent of a 4-slot Fuji charger. Easy enough to charge a week's worth in a night in town... Come into town, get two charging, get dinner, change the batteries and go to bed - four charged by morning! The second advantage of the bigger battery is that the power to weight ratio is better - you get more battery per gram of case, circuit board and other things that don't power the camera.

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Rob C on August 28, 2018, 03:23:37 pm
Not it's primary purpose, I expect, but the one with the greater pixel count might make a wonderful copy camera.

I scanned most of the 135 format trannies that I had interest in, but my few 6x6 and 6x7 survivors were copied on my D700 using the 105mm micro-Nikkor, and it worked very well. But, using only the middle number of pixels of a 12mp camera is no ideal route...

A photographer having a relatively large stock of such larger originals could find a convenient tool in that new camera.

Rob
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: D Fuller on August 28, 2018, 05:33:19 pm
Not it's primary purpose, I expect, but the one with the greater pixel count might make a wonderful copy camera.

I scanned most of the 135 format trannies that I had interest in, but my few 6x6 and 6x7 survivors were copied on my D700 using the 105mm micro-Nikkor, and it worked very well. But, using only the middle number of pixels of a 12mp camera is no ideal route...

A photographer having a relatively large stock of such larger originals could find a convenient tool in that new camera.

Rob

Very true.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: eronald on August 28, 2018, 07:05:00 pm
Innovation!? It is a lens mount, for god's sake. Had they made it square, however... ;)

Innovation is the new word companies use to reassure customers that they have only applied a coat of paint.

In this case a red stripe on an A7.

Edmund
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on August 28, 2018, 07:20:59 pm
Quote
The only Fuji USB chargers I've ever found are one battery at a time or too big to backpack with (Nitecore has just released a small, lightweight dual charger for the Fuji batteries, but I haven't seen it for sale).

I've had this for a while: https://www.amazon.com/Wasabi-Power-Battery-Charger-Fujifilm/dp/B06VVGY5KW/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1535497213&sr=8-5&keywords=fuji+battery&dpID=51uiBXnwkFL&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch
It's quite light, I wanted to weigh it but I can't find it anywhere in the house right now, I'm sure it's going to resurface once I buy it again.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BJL on August 28, 2018, 08:05:34 pm
I believe that was Nikon with the 1 series, wasn't it (sept 2011)? Sensor was manufactured by Aptina if I recall correctly.
Thanks; corrected.

But yes, agreed, the a7 mostly packaged existing technologies in a compact form factor and then Sony did iterative improvements from then on. I personally think that this is still innovation from a product standpoint, but yes, indeed not a revolution from a technology standpoint.

Now, an evolutionary product may result in near revolutionary improvements for some categories of users.
Agreed. I am not much interested in the "revolutionary vs mere evolution" debate; I care about how much a new product or system advances possibilities for photographers, and a "mere" mash-up and tweaking of existing ideas and technologies into a combination not previously available can do that.

Anyway, "revolution vs evolution" is a false dichotomy for what is only degrees of difference; every camera at this stage builds on  a vast history of previous innovations.  As Carl Sagan said,
Quote
If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. — https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/32952-if-you-wish-to-make-an-apple-pie-from-scratch
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 28, 2018, 09:32:11 pm
https://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2018/08/28/nikon-z7-engineer-interview-deep-dive-q

Nikon's engineer's view seems to be that the AF of the Z7 + S lenses shouldn't be quite as fast as the D850 + D5, but still very fast. This comment doesn't seem aligned with the recent report from the Northup.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: eronald on August 29, 2018, 01:02:16 am
https://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2018/08/28/nikon-z7-engineer-interview-deep-dive-q

Nikon's engineer's view seems to be that the AF of the Z7 + S lenses shouldn't be quite as fast as the D850 + D5, but still very fast. This comment doesn't seem aligned with the recent report from the Northup.

Cheers,
Bernardior

Who cares? The initial body will be suboptimal in a variety of ways. Because it needs to be suboptimal by design.
It has to be suboptimal because the engineers don't know yet what the real world and manufacturing tolerances will do to its behavior in the hands of users.

Sony first brought out the A7, but the A7R2 was the huge step forwards as I recall.

Edmund
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 29, 2018, 02:34:55 am
Sufficient AF speed and accuracy will be important for me, I do care.

I know that many Sony early adopters did forgive a lot to the a7r and a7rII in exchange for compactness, but this is 2018 and we have D850/D5/a7rIII to compare against.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: davidgp on August 29, 2018, 04:26:16 am
All true but Lula is quite Sony-centric so ignoring a major innovation from Nikon does not surprise me.

Yes I am. Nikon are a reputable and respectable camera company, and are introducing a new mount (I don't count the failed CX one) after sticking with 60-odd years with the old one.

They seem to be readying themselves for the future in imaging.

Maybe you both should go to Kevin message in this same thread: https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=124549.msg1063264#msg1063264 where he says that it was impossible for him to travel to the presentation event because he is in a workshop and both systems: Z7 and Z6 are going to be in his hands for him to review and plans to give enough details here.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on August 29, 2018, 06:03:19 am
Maybe you both should go to Kevin message in this same thread: https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=124549.msg1063264#msg1063264 where he says that it was impossible for him to travel to the presentation event because he is in a workshop and both systems: Z7 and Z6 are going to be in his hands for him to review and plans to give enough details here.

Thanks, I missed that. Apologies to Kevin.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: chez on August 29, 2018, 09:45:48 am
Sufficient AF speed and accuracy will be important for me, I do care.

I know that many Sony early adopters did forgive a lot to the a7r and a7rII in exchange for compactness, but this is 2018 and we have D850/D5/a7rIII to compare against.

Cheers,
Bernard

If AF speed and accuracy are important to you, you need to use the new lenses as the legacy lenses won't deliver speed and accuracy as they do on DSLR's.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: sc_john on August 29, 2018, 10:27:01 am
If AF speed and accuracy are important to you, you need to use the new lenses as the legacy lenses won't deliver speed and accuracy as they do on DSLR's.

Posted 8/28 at Imaging Resource from "IR Interview: A deeper dive with the Nikon Z7 engineers", https://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2018/08/28/nikon-z7-engineer-interview-deep-dive-q (https://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2018/08/28/nikon-z7-engineer-interview-deep-dive-q):

"Z-series AF performance with F-mount lenses

This is obviously a huge area of interest for existing Nikon shooters, and is the area in which Nikon potentially leaps ahead of their competitors in terms of lens choice. In our pre-launch briefing, Nikon stated that, on a lens-by-lens basis, F-mount lenses should focus just as quickly and accurately as on a body like the D850. I pointedly asked for confirmation on this point, and they assured me that that indeed should be the case.
"

I guess time will tell.

John
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: chez on August 29, 2018, 10:47:08 am
Posted 8/28 at Imaging Resource from "IR Interview: A deeper dive with the Nikon Z7 engineers", https://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2018/08/28/nikon-z7-engineer-interview-deep-dive-q (https://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2018/08/28/nikon-z7-engineer-interview-deep-dive-q):

"Z-series AF performance with F-mount lenses

This is obviously a huge area of interest for existing Nikon shooters, and is the area in which Nikon potentially leaps ahead of their competitors in terms of lens choice. In our pre-launch briefing, Nikon stated that, on a lens-by-lens basis, F-mount lenses should focus just as quickly and accurately as on a body like the D850. I pointedly asked for confirmation on this point, and they assured me that that indeed should be the case.
"

I guess time will tell.

John

Why not quote the entire thing where they go deeper into it and discuss the limitations.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: sc_john on August 29, 2018, 01:36:21 pm
Why not quote the entire thing where they go deeper into it and discuss the limitations.

Chez,

Take a deep breath and count to ten. I wasn't attacking you. I linked the entire article for folks to read... and I also added "I guess time will tell". Just because an engineer discusses intent, it doesn't prove out the results. Time and usage will prove the results.

John
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: D Fuller on August 29, 2018, 01:39:09 pm
Sufficient AF speed and accuracy will be important for me, I do care.

I know that many Sony early adopters did forgive a lot to the a7r and a7rII in exchange for compactness, but this is 2018 and we have D850/D5/a7rIII to compare against.

Cheers,
Bernard

I expect that we're going to find that AF performance is somewhat different from what we've gotten used to from our SLRs. Pure conjecture, of course, but it's based on what I experienced when I tested a Leica SL, and my experience with the Sony a7 series.

The Leica didn't track moving things nearly as well as I'm used to my Nikons doing, yet for single-shot AF, it (with its 24-90) was the fastest AF I've ever experienced. By contrast, I find my Sony a7r3's continuous AF to work quite well, but the single-shot AF seems almost always to be slower than I want. I always feel like I'm waiting for the camera in that mode.

I suspect that the engineering choices (phase vs contrast detect, different motors with different behaviors, etc.) in mirrorless are requiring the engineers to make decisions that impact how various focus modes perform in different ways than we're used to on SLRs. Without long-term testing, we're really not going to know how the new set of compromises works for our particular kind of shooting.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: eronald on August 29, 2018, 03:41:16 pm
Don't hold your breath Bernard, for then next 2 or 3 years your D5 will still be speed champ.

Edmund
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 29, 2018, 05:51:32 pm
Don't hold your breath Bernard, for then next 2 or 3 years your D5 will still be speed champ.

I am pretty sure that Nikon will release the Z8 and Z9 in year 2019.

Odds are that the designs are at advanced stage and they will match the availability of the pro zooms. There is just no way they would release the 24-70mm f2.8 and 70-200mm f2.8 without matching pro spec cameras. So this roadmap is as good as a Z pro body roadmap to me.

And I hope that at least you will admit that my Nikon forecast have all been totally spot on these past years and months. ;)

This being said, even an a9 is not yet a match for the D5 AFwise so I had no expectation to replace my D5 with a Z7 or Z6. I find the size of the D5 a good match for the lenses I use it with, and that bulk isn’t problematic for those assignments.

Plus owning a big camera makes me feel more manly. :D

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Nikon’s new mirrorless system: how good will its C-AF and S-AF be?
Post by: BJL on August 29, 2018, 06:40:39 pm
... it's based on what I experienced when I tested a Leica SL, and my experience with the Sony a7 series.

The Leica didn't track moving things nearly as well as I'm used to my Nikons doing, yet for single-shot AF, it (with its 24-90) was the fastest AF I've ever experienced. By contrast, I find my Sony a7r3's continuous AF to work quite well, but the single-shot AF seems almost always to be slower than I want. ...

I suspect that the engineering choices (phase vs contrast detect, different motors with different behaviors, etc.) ...

The Leica has only CDAF, and the motion tracking (C-AF) weakness is to be expected there; Nikon's on-sensor PDAF (and hybrid AF when using adapted F-mount lenses that have OIS) should do much better. I have no idea why the Sony A7R3 is sluggish with S-AF!

I would not put much weight on any adverse reviews so far of AF performance, because the firmware on review models so far is clearly not the release candidate. (Favorable information is more trust-worthy, as I doubt that future firmware updates will degrade anything!)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BJL on August 29, 2018, 06:53:42 pm
And I hope that at least you will admit that my Nikon forecast have all been totally spot on these past years and months. ;)
You were a bit off in this one: https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=124549.msg1059704#msg1059704
But then I was off in the other direction and you revised and improved your prediction as more information became available.
Comparisons come to mind, but political discussions are banned here ...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 29, 2018, 07:09:21 pm
You were a bit off in this one: https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=124549.msg1059704#msg1059704
But then I was off in the other direction and you revised and improved your prediction as more information became available.
Comparisons come to mind, but political discussions are banned here ...

Yes, indeed. But I was more speaking about the overall directions, the fact that Nikon would go for FF mirrorless and not APS-C (which was by far the dominant opinion, including that of Thom Hogan), that they would target the top (including all the features we have come to expect from top mirrorless), that they would come up with a design focused on image quality rather than compactness, that they would find a way to ensure good AF performance with F mount lenses, the rough schedule,...

Note that I never claimed that they would be totally successful, just that it would make sense for them to go in that direction.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Kevin Raber on August 29, 2018, 07:31:42 pm
Amazing the reaction this thread has going.  First, apologies for not putting anything on the home page but I can't be everywhere.  I was gone for two-plus weeks running two back to back workshops.  Just about every YouTuber had the bases covered on the launch so not much to say by putting something on the LuLa front page.  I don't usually put something on the home page until I have something in my hands.  Plus, Nikon didn't invite me to their event.  LuLa most likely wasn't on Nikon's favorite list with some of the criticisms towards it over the last few years.  (see the last video for example where Michael has a few words). 

Last night I finally got my hands on the Nikon Z cameras.  I have also ordered on my own dime both cameras and two lenses so we can try them.  While my time was short with them I have to say this regardless of all the negativity I am reading out there that I think we need to give Nikon a chance.  Frankly, I want to shoot with the camera and see how it does.  I want to see what else is coming down the pike.  There is no question Canon will have a system.  So far it's the best-kept secret next to the original iPhone.  Kudos to Canon.  Fuji will certainly announce something too.  And, a lot of predictions about Sony announcements coming.  It is Photokina year and everything will certainly be announced by the time that show opens. Heck, look what Phase One announced the other day.  Who would have ever dreamed of 151 megapixels?

The next 30 days are going to be a lot of fun.  I can say that for certain.  I look forward to having one of the first Nikon production units.  I also look forward to seeing what else is coming our way.  I am left scratching my head a bit on some of Nikon's choices regarding the Z cameras but I'll wait until I have one to say whether these thoughts have any bearing on the user experience.

I look forward to doing an On The Rocks episode where once everything is announced and shipping where we can sit down and talk about all the offerings.  We also plan to have a representative on future episodes from all the major camera companies.  We just finished editing an episode on Olympus.  Look for that in the next week.  We have an episode scheduled with Sony and hopefully once we have products in our hands Canon and Nikon as well as Fuji. 

It's never been a better time to be a photographer.  The choices coming our way are tremendous.  As a photographer, you'll be able to choose the best solution for you and the photography that you enjoy. And, let's not forget that there are also numerous processing and post-processing option available to take our photography further.

So, stay tuned, it's going to get real interesting. 

P.S. A lot of talk about LuLa being a Sony-centric site.  In the recent article where I shared a video Micahel and I did four years ago we made it very clear we were all about innovation.  Sony was and has been one of the major invovators.  Kind of funny how many are comparing what Nikon is offering to the a7 III as the camera to beat.  Let's not forget how many cameras Sony has announced in the last few year.  Each of them improving on the previous model.  Wonder if Nikon and others can keep that pace. 

To make it clear I own Sony, Fuji, Panasonic and Olympus and shoot regularlly with each.  I look forward to adding Nikon and Canon to the list soon. As always we report on here what we like and use.  I can't wait.



Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 29, 2018, 09:49:02 pm
Looking forward to your findings Kevin, I know they will be unbiased and that you will tell it like you see it.

I expect to get a Z7 around availability date in Japan, which means in less than a month. If you are interested I could write a short piece about the experience of a Nikon D850 shooter with the Z7? I guess I'll need one or 2 month to get usable conclusions.

Let me know.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on August 30, 2018, 07:54:33 am

Plus owning a big camera makes me feel more manly. :D

Cheers,
Bernard
It also can be used as a weapon like the medieval mace in case you are in need of self-defense.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 30, 2018, 08:30:51 am
It also can be used as a weapon like the medieval mace in case you are in need of self-defense.

Yes, as hammer also.

I believe it should also work as a jetliner parking wheel stopper... only with the lens on though.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: OmerV on August 30, 2018, 01:52:09 pm
Amazing the reaction this thread has going.  First, apologies for not putting anything on the home page but I can't be everywhere.  I was gone for two-plus weeks running two back to back workshops.  Just about every YouTuber had the bases covered on the launch so not much to say by putting something on the LuLa front page.  I don't usually put something on the home page until I have something in my hands.  Plus, Nikon didn't invite me to their event.  LuLa most likely wasn't on Nikon's favorite list with some of the criticisms towards it over the last few years.  (see the last video for example where Michael has a few words). 

Last night I finally got my hands on the Nikon Z cameras.  I have also ordered on my own dime both cameras and two lenses so we can try them.  While my time was short with them I have to say this regardless of all the negativity I am reading out there that I think we need to give Nikon a chance.  Frankly, I want to shoot with the camera and see how it does.  I want to see what else is coming down the pike.  There is no question Canon will have a system.  So far it's the best-kept secret next to the original iPhone.  Kudos to Canon.  Fuji will certainly announce something too.  And, a lot of predictions about Sony announcements coming.  It is Photokina year and everything will certainly be announced by the time that show opens. Heck, look what Phase One announced the other day.  Who would have ever dreamed of 151 megapixels?

The next 30 days are going to be a lot of fun.  I can say that for certain.  I look forward to having one of the first Nikon production units.  I also look forward to seeing what else is coming our way.  I am left scratching my head a bit on some of Nikon's choices regarding the Z cameras but I'll wait until I have one to say whether these thoughts have any bearing on the user experience.

I look forward to doing an On The Rocks episode where once everything is announced and shipping where we can sit down and talk about all the offerings.  We also plan to have a representative on future episodes from all the major camera companies.  We just finished editing an episode on Olympus.  Look for that in the next week.  We have an episode scheduled with Sony and hopefully once we have products in our hands Canon and Nikon as well as Fuji. 

It's never been a better time to be a photographer.  The choices coming our way are tremendous.  As a photographer, you'll be able to choose the best solution for you and the photography that you enjoy. And, let's not forget that there are also numerous processing and post-processing option available to take our photography further.

So, stay tuned, it's going to get real interesting. 

P.S. A lot of talk about LuLa being a Sony-centric site.  In the recent article where I shared a video Micahel and I did four years ago we made it very clear we were all about innovation.  Sony was and has been one of the major invovators.  Kind of funny how many are comparing what Nikon is offering to the a7 III as the camera to beat.  Let's not forget how many cameras Sony has announced in the last few year.  Each of them improving on the previous model.  Wonder if Nikon and others can keep that pace. 

To make it clear I own Sony, Fuji, Panasonic and Olympus and shoot regularlly with each.  I look forward to adding Nikon and Canon to the list soon. As always we report on here what we like and use.  I can't wait.

Who is "we?" Are you not including paying members? Obviously the response to the new Nikon cameras suggests we also use cameras not on your personal list. Acknowledge this fact, otherwise the question becomes: Is Lula a photography site or...what?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Telecaster on August 30, 2018, 03:26:23 pm
Who is "we?" Are you not including paying members? Obviously the response to the new Nikon cameras suggests we also use cameras not on your personal list. Acknowledge this fact, otherwise the question becomes: Is Lula a photography site or...what?

This is sub-ridiculous. Kevin & Chris are under no obligation to own any particular camera system. LuLa is a photography site that also covers gear. Sites that do it the other way 'round are plentiful if that's what you're after.

-Dave-
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: OmerV on August 30, 2018, 05:04:13 pm
This is sub-ridiculous. Kevin & Chris are under no obligation to own any particular camera system. LuLa is a photography site that also covers gear. Sites that do it the other way 'round are plentiful if that's what you're after.

-Dave-

 It doesn’t matter what Kevin uses nor do I care. Yeah, Kevin can do whatever he likes, but he should then not be surprised when ignoring Canon(his ownership or not is immaterial) that he is perceived as being obsequious towards Sony. 

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 30, 2018, 05:47:42 pm
Who is "we?"...

“We” here was obviously used in its pluralis modestiae form. Meaning Kevin.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: OmerV on August 30, 2018, 08:10:32 pm
“We” here was obviously used in its pluralis modestiae form. Meaning Kevin.

I think he meant management; himself, Chris and others(don’t know who the others are,) even though he is probably the main camera reviewer. There may also be select members, not part of management, who contribute camera info in some way.

My use of “we” was meant as being both management, and paid membership who should be regarded as part of what LuLa is.



Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Kevin Raber on August 30, 2018, 09:08:25 pm
The we is the LuLa team. Chris, Michael, Debra and myself.  As far as Canon goes I think we made it clear we were waiting for some innovation.  I'm sure like Nikon that Canon will have an interesting offering in mirrorless.  I'll purchase a Canon camera too. And, like I said we will sit down with all of them and discuss the merits of each.  Sp much chitter and chatter right now.  Give Nikon and Canon a chance.  Let's deal all the cards and see what it looks like.  Fun and exciting times.

In the end, though it's about getting the shot, having fun doing so and having the right tools at your disposal.  I have still yet to sell a print where the client asked what I shot it with.  And, I bet dollars to donuts that if I shot the same scene with all the mirrorless cameras available and made the same size prints from them that they all would look pretty much the same and that you wouldn't be able to tell me what camera took which.

I look forward to putting all of these cameras next to each other and talking about them.  I know that the next few weeks will be full of announcements, cameras and otherwise as we get closer to Photokina.  Fun times!
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on August 31, 2018, 04:55:53 am
Who is "we?" Are you not including paying members? Obviously the response to the new Nikon cameras suggests we also use cameras not on your personal list. Acknowledge this fact, otherwise the question becomes: Is Lula a photography site or...what?

I think it is quite simple: if you, as a paying member, feel that the content of the site does not meet your wants/needs/requirements, then stop being a paying member.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 31, 2018, 06:01:47 am
http://chsvll.nikon-image.com/products/nikkor/zmount/nikkor_z_35mm_f18s/img/sample/pic_03_l.jpg

I say wow. The shape and quality of oof highlights is the closest thing to perfect I remember seeing. Much better than what my Otus delivers on F mount.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: eronald on August 31, 2018, 06:46:27 am
I think it is quite simple: if you, as a paying member, feel that the content of the site does not meet your wants/needs/requirements, then stop being a paying member.

When are the football championship series starting up again? It's time fandom found a place to express its energy.

 :D
Edmund
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: eronald on August 31, 2018, 06:48:36 am
http://chsvll.nikon-image.com/products/nikkor/zmount/nikkor_z_35mm_f18s/img/sample/pic_03_l.jpg

I say wow. The shape and quality of oof highlights is the closest thing to perfect I remember seeing. Much better than what my Otus delivers on F mount.

Cheers,
Bernard

Hey that's a nice pic. Bubbles for bubbles. I wonder if the bubbly wine got drunk by the photographer.

Edmund
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: kers on August 31, 2018, 06:56:11 am
How much i like it that Nikon has a Z6& Z7...

I am afraid a lot of the R&D power will go into the Z lineup and lens development . obviously.
The dslr F-mount lenses will get less attention...
for instance - a good 50mm is now only available in Z-mount.
New PCE lenses will be even further away. A new 24mmPCE is much needed.
There is no new ultra wide fixed focal lens since...
etc.



Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on August 31, 2018, 08:06:30 am
...I am afraid a lot of the R&D power will go into the Z lineup and lens development . obviously.
The dslr F-mount lenses will get less attention...
for instance - a good 50mm is now only available in Z-mount.
New PCE lenses will be even further away. A new 24mmPCE is much needed.
There is no new ultra wide fixed focal lens since...
etc.

Obviously. Mirror is dead, just doesn’t know it yet.

Mirror is, evolutionary, a remnant of the distant past, like appendix. There is no reason for its continued existence, now that there are other ways to provide a view through the lens.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: OmerV on August 31, 2018, 09:00:24 am
Obviously. Mirror is dead, just doesn’t know it yet.

Mirror is, evolutionary, a remnant of the distant past, like appendix. There is no reason for its continued existence, now that there are other ways to provide a view through the lens.

Not quite yet, Slobodan. Mirrorless cameras have a glaring problem; power-on lag when first being turned on and when waking from power save/sleep mode. Sure, when doing still life, in any of its variants, or landscape, waiting for the camera to power up is a non-issue. But for sports, journalism, wildlife, and street, immediacy or lack of, may decide whether a photo is made or not.

For all the praise Sony gets for being innovative, it has yet to solve that problem in all the E mount cameras, including the much ballyhooed A9.  Yeah, keeping a mirrorless camera on continuously will work if heat is dissipated well, and carrying a bag full of batteries.

Still, with Nikon and Canon now in the game, “innovation” may actually mean something. That is if the whole camera industry isn’t put to shame by the smartphone industry.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: chez on August 31, 2018, 09:50:37 am
Not quite yet, Slobodan. Mirrorless cameras have a glaring problem; power-on lag when first being turned on and when waking from power save/sleep mode. Sure, when doing still life, in any of its variants, or landscape, waiting for the camera to power up is a non-issue. But for sports, journalism, wildlife, and street, immediacy or lack of, may decide whether a photo is made or not.

For all the praise Sony gets for being innovative, it has yet to solve that problem in all the E mount cameras, including the much ballyhooed A9.  Yeah, keeping a mirrorless camera on continuously will work if heat is dissipated well, and carrying a bag full of batteries.

Still, with Nikon and Canon now in the game, “innovation” may actually mean something. That is if the whole camera industry isn’t put to shame by the smartphone industry.

But the manufactures really don't care about that. They want to sell equipment and all the hype regarding mirrorless will sell equipment and they will release new lenses for mirrorless as that is what will sell. Just look at Bernard...he's already opened up his wallet and is heading to the store.  :D
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Chris Livsey on August 31, 2018, 10:03:45 am
Obviously. Mirror is dead, just doesn’t know it yet.
 There is no reason for its continued existence, now that there are other ways to provide a view through the lens.

And those ways cost much less to manufacture (more automation) and adjust to tolerance whilst allowing the retail price to remain at a point to realise a reassuringly high return to the maker.

BTW has no one mentioned Nikon's recent track record in delivering new cameras with issues or are we all optimistic that this time it will be different?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on August 31, 2018, 10:18:35 am
Bernard I have a question. You have a theory that Nikon is getting out of low end cameras because cell phones are going to kill this off and there is no future in it.  I read yesterday that Nikon has announced a very entry level DSLR D3500.

Does that not indicate that Nikon is taking a different approach to what you anticipated? Also what of all the people saying DSLR is over? Clearly Nikon doesn’t think so.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: shadowblade on August 31, 2018, 11:23:29 am
Not quite yet, Slobodan. Mirrorless cameras have a glaring problem; power-on lag when first being turned on and when waking from power save/sleep mode. Sure, when doing still life, in any of its variants, or landscape, waiting for the camera to power up is a non-issue. But for sports, journalism, wildlife, and street, immediacy or lack of, may decide whether a photo is made or not.

For all the praise Sony gets for being innovative, it has yet to solve that problem in all the E mount cameras, including the much ballyhooed A9.  Yeah, keeping a mirrorless camera on continuously will work if heat is dissipated well, and carrying a bag full of batteries.

Still, with Nikon and Canon now in the game, “innovation” may actually mean something. That is if the whole camera industry isn’t put to shame by the smartphone industry.

It takes longer to lift the A9/A7r3 to the eye than it does for the camera to turn on. Sports proceed in predictable ways - you know when an athlete is running down the track a certain way or is running in to kick a ball - and fast-moving wildlife also moves in predictable directions. Shooting them is not likr skeet shooting. Although what you are describing is even worse than skeet shooting - not only do you not know where the subjects will be coming from, but you also don't seem to know whether they'll be coming in five seconds' time or twenty minutes. If the time needed for an A9 or A7r3 to start up affects your ability to get the shot for sports or wildlife, the problem isn't with the camera - you just don't know your subject well enough. Even if the camera were on full-time, you'd still need to bring it to eye level and point it in the right direction, which takes much longer than turning it on.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: kers on August 31, 2018, 11:42:11 am
Bernard I have a question. You have a theory that Nikon is getting out of low end cameras because cell phones are going to kill this off and there is no future in it.  I read yesterday that Nikon has announced a very entry level DSLR D3500.

Does that not indicate that Nikon is taking a different approach to what you anticipated? Also what of all the people saying DSLR is over? Clearly Nikon doesn’t think so.

Thom Hogan has some answers...
http://www.dslrbodies.com/newsviews/nikon-2018-news/august-2018-nikon-news/whats-up-with-dx-redux.html
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: OmerV on August 31, 2018, 02:06:31 pm
It takes longer to lift the A9/A7r3 to the eye than it does for the camera to turn on. Sports proceed in predictable ways - you know when an athlete is running down the track a certain way or is running in to kick a ball - and fast-moving wildlife also moves in predictable directions. Shooting them is not likr skeet shooting. Although what you are describing is even worse than skeet shooting - not only do you not know where the subjects will be coming from, but you also don't seem to know whether they'll be coming in five seconds' time or twenty minutes. If the time needed for an A9 or A7r3 to start up affects your ability to get the shot for sports or wildlife, the problem isn't with the camera - you just don't know your subject well enough. Even if the camera were on full-time, you'd still need to bring it to eye level and point it in the right direction, which takes much longer than turning it on.

I disagree, but then maybe I’m quicker at lifting my camera. And yes, I’ve tried to get the camera on by first tapping the shutter to wake it from power-save mode, and though it works sometimes(if there’s no rush,) inevitably I forget. I have put my Sony up to my eye only to see a black EVF(I don’t use lens caps  :D)

Yes, action can be predictable but there are moments that require immediate reaction and response. I want a camera that won’t take my attention while concentrating on photography.

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: bcooter on August 31, 2018, 02:33:03 pm


Amazing the reaction this thread has going.  snip….

I have also ordered on my own dime both cameras and two lenses so we can try them.  While my time was short with them I have to say this regardless of all the negativity I am reading out there that I think we need to give Nikon a chance.  Frankly, I want to shoot with the camera and see how it does. 
That’s great you ordered it to test it with your style of photography, which is way different than mine, not that one i right or wrong, just different genres, different end results.   

Honestly I was a little excited about the announcement of the new Nikons because Nikon was way behind in the motion capture race compared to others and thought ah-hah Nikon now has a chance to blow by them,  though we all know that most new evf cameras come in needing firmware updates, then the next two, three versions address the main issues of the original, in specific Sony.

Though my needs are different and I’d probably use one of these Nikons 95% of the time shooting motion footage. 

snip….

P.S. A lot of talk about LuLa being a Sony-centric site.  In the recent article where I shared a video Micahel and I did four years ago we made it very clear we were all about innovation.  Sony was and has been one of the major invovators.  snip……

I see this less of a Sony centric forum as I do a new equipment forum.   I think it’s too early to diss Nikon, or any new camera at announcement, as 1. Everyone shoots in a different genre and style and 2. Sony seems to come out with new cameras which seem monthly so it gets a lot of attention.    Given that there does seem to be a lot of different information based in stills on frame rates, 14 vs. 12 bit etc. etc.

But it’s all in the eye of the beholder.   22,000 views on this thread and growing tells me that Nikon continues to have popularity among the girls and guys that like talking about cameras and 2. As this is a gear site there is always a lot of talk about C vs. N. vs. P  vs. F vs. the other P vs. O, etc. etc.

I guess I’m seeing it different.   I wouldn’t care if a camera or gear was made by Heinz Beans if it 1. did something I couldn’t live without, or 2. didn’t stop me from doing what I want to do.

I do know this Kevin is right, put it in your hands and shoot what you shoot.   Now, I’d rather wait and rent, then buy, because I’ve only bought two cameras in my career that I didn’t test and they didn’t do what I needed, (the S brand).

I went from the reviews and those cameras didn’t work for me.   Actually the cameras that made me the most (and still do) we’re my ancient (in electro land) which everyone said they didn’t like we’re my R1s oh yea and my C branded cameras.   Thework, they still produce what I need and they produce a look I prefer from my Scarlet and Epic for motion, everything else for stills. 

I am now going to buy two new motion cameras on Netflix approved site.   Gotta find the time to really test them, but I can promise you I won't spend $65,000 on one camera, it's gotta be two which is 12.5k.

So I’d suggest rent before you buy, produce imagery that you actually want to produce (hopefully better than expected) and then you’ll know.

IMO

BC

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on August 31, 2018, 03:14:23 pm
When are the football championship series starting up again? It's time fandom found a place to express its energy.

 :D
Edmund
Champions League draw was yesterday and my Ajax team made it into the group stage with a favorable draw.  First matches are in a couple of weeks.  Are you a Paris St. Germain supporter?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Telecaster on August 31, 2018, 03:26:13 pm
http://chsvll.nikon-image.com/products/nikkor/zmount/nikkor_z_35mm_f18s/img/sample/pic_03_l.jpg

I say wow. The shape and quality of oof highlights is the closest thing to perfect I remember seeing. Much better than what my Otus delivers on F mount.

Yeah, it's very nice. Reminds me of the Zeiss ZM 35/1.4.

-Dave-
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: DougDolde on August 31, 2018, 03:26:56 pm
If you are still considering the Nikon Z watch this review

https://youtu.be/r19prJVWOXA
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 31, 2018, 04:21:47 pm
Bernard I have a question. You have a theory that Nikon is getting out of low end cameras because cell phones are going to kill this off and there is no future in it.  I read yesterday that Nikon has announced a very entry level DSLR D3500.

Does that not indicate that Nikon is taking a different approach to what you anticipated? Also what of all the people saying DSLR is over? Clearly Nikon doesn’t think so.

I see the D3500 as a perfect confirmation that Nikon is stopping investment in low end and APS-C.

If you have tried to undertake what I wrote, I have never meant that they would completely stop selling low end APS-C cameras, nor that this would happen overnight.

We all know that some people buy new stuff just because it’s new. We all know that retail salesman use the newer as a means to triggering gas. So Nikon is releasing a D3500, that is essentially identical to the D3400 and must have been super cheap to design and produce, to extract a bit more money out of this segment while it lasts.

Btw the D3400 was alreasy nearly identical to the D3300.

My conservative view is that the D3500 must have cost about 100 times less to develop than the Z6/Z7.

This is very similar to the “new” Canon 70-200 f2.8 mkIII that is identical to the mkII. Well, at least Nikon did make the D3500 a tiny bit smaller. ;) Same story.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 31, 2018, 04:28:11 pm
Yeah, it's very nice. Reminds me of the Zeiss ZM 35/1.4.

-Dave-

Yes, but:
- the Zeiss has cat eyes oof highlights when shot at f1.8 , does it not?
- it doesn’t use aspherical glass elements, which is why it doesn’t exhibit any weird texture in those areas.

As far as I can tell the Nikon is the first compactish wide using aspherical glass elements for excellent corner performance with such pure rendering.

I’d glad to be proven wrong, I am just trying to establish facts.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: John Camp on August 31, 2018, 05:27:51 pm
I couldn't read this full thread, it's too long-- I wish it had been edited into two parts, one before the camera came out, and the other after.

But, whatever. Last weekend I went with some friends to a drag strip that ran from late afternoon until well after dark, and I was shooting with a D800 and a 35-70 F2.8 zoom. By the time I finished, my arm felt dead. In addition to my Nikon system, I have a full Panasonic system including their version of the f2.8 zoom, and I wish I'd taken that one instead...I didn't, because I wanted more high-res tall verticals (it was a drag strip) from the D800's longer aspect ratio.

Unlike most people here, I am not obsessing over the Z7's lack of a second card slot or the sensor (more about those things in a minute.) I'm obsessing over its size. I looked at the camera size comparison website and guess what? It's about the size of my m4/3 GX8 Panny. It's slightly narrower and only a bit taller (because of the viewer) than a Leica M10, and weighs less. For me, that's huge. And it's weather-sealed. Also huge. It'll use my whole range of fairly modern F-mount lenses. Huge. The mid-range zoom is f4 and reasonably compact: terrific. I shot most of the drag strip at 1600 and the quality was excellent; I don't need no stinking' f1.4. Would I buy the f0.95 manual focus? Maybe. Although I have a couple for the Panny, and those work fine. Depends on price.

Second card slot and sensor: I don't care about the sensor as long as it works. I suspect it'll be about the same as the higher-end Sonys and Canons, and all, IMHO, are brilliant. The only reason I can think of for more resolution is that you're shooting for billboards, or the kind of larger-than-life model photos in Victoria Secret windows. Second card slot? Most interesting review I've seen for that came from a wildlife photographer who says he doesn't use a second slot because it's too slow, and that XQD cards have *never* failed him. They are essentially as good or better than the SSDs that all your computer stuff is on. Another review said that the reviewer interviewed all their pro friends, and that they'd never heard of an XQD card failing in the field, *ever.* And frankly, if I were a pro wedding shooter, since cameras are far, far, far more like to fail than XQD cards, I'd have *two* cameras with me, and shoot with them alternately. Maybe that's just me.

I admit that I'm a Nikon user and like Nikon ergonomics. And I'll freely admit that Canons and Sony produce photos that are just as good. I'm going to wait to see more in-depth user reviews of this camera, but I expect to buy one.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: 32BT on August 31, 2018, 05:50:03 pm
Yes, but:
- the Zeiss has cat eyes oof highlights when shot at f1.8 , does it not?
- it doesn’t use aspherical glass elements, which is why it doesn’t exhibit any weird texture in those areas.

As far as I can tell the Nikon is the first compactish wide using aspherical glass elements for excellent corner performance with such pure rendering.

I’d glad to be proven wrong, I am just trying to establish facts.

Cheers,
Bernard

So does the example you linked to. You can see it towards the edges.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 31, 2018, 06:04:07 pm
So does the example you linked to. You can see it towards the edges.

To such a low extent that they appear mostly circular.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: 32BT on August 31, 2018, 06:09:44 pm
I couldn't read this full thread, it's too long-- I wish it had been edited into two parts, one before the camera came out, and the other after.

Ha, wouldn't have made much difference, i think, since afterwards none of us still haven't had a clue what we were talking about as no one even came near an actual specimen.

Page after page with arguments why it would or wouldn't properly autofocus. I was reminded of the link someone shared somewhere else about birdphotographers switching from C to N because of supposed autofocus superiority. Some esotheric edge case. Birding for f's sake. Then if you read this thread with the S examples it all becomes such a comedy.

Eye autofocus apparently is "crazy sophisticated" because it tracks an animal's eye in total darkness. Yep, crazy is indeed the word for that, but there's apparently a bunch of birding photographers that might be really interested in such a feature.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: 32BT on August 31, 2018, 06:19:07 pm
To such a low extent that they appear mostly circular.

Cheers,
Bernard

Well, it would be a good argument to use cropping instead of binning when shooting video...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 31, 2018, 07:13:04 pm
Well, it would be a good argument to use cropping instead of binning when shooting video...

Indeed.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: chez on August 31, 2018, 08:22:02 pm
Yes, but:
- the Zeiss has cat eyes oof highlights when shot at f1.8 , does it not?
- it doesn’t use aspherical glass elements, which is why it doesn’t exhibit any weird texture in those areas.

As far as I can tell the Nikon is the first compactish wide using aspherical glass elements for excellent corner performance with such pure rendering.

I’d glad to be proven wrong, I am just trying to establish facts.

Cheers,
Bernard

Funny I've never heard anyone complain about cats eye bokeh other than bit head photographers. Most people look at the subject of the photo...not how elegant the out of focus areas are.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Alex Waugh on August 31, 2018, 08:27:49 pm
Funny I've never heard anyone complain about cats eye bokeh other than bit head photographers. Most people look at the subject of the photo...not how elegant the out of focus areas are.

I agree. As long as the image looks good as a whole it can be shot through anything for all I care. As long as that lens provides the shooting envelope I need, I'm happy. Whether that is focal length, system weight, bokeh quality, speed or colour rendition depends on the photographer.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on August 31, 2018, 09:23:47 pm
Funny I've never heard anyone complain about cats eye bokeh other than bit head photographers. Most people look at the subject of the photo...not how elegant the out of focus areas are.

We all have different levels of expectations. ;)

I have been frustrated by cateyes bokeh for many many years.

Do they make or break an image? No more than 45mp vs 12mp of CA vs perfectly corrected lenses.

And many images don’t have blurred speculat highlights. For those that do, their share is considered by me and many others as important.

Good for you if you don’t care.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: scooby70 on September 01, 2018, 05:44:27 am
Sorry if this has already been posted, if not it's worth a look...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ud0ljGVhn6M
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 01, 2018, 06:29:07 am
Sorry if this has already been posted, if not it's worth a look...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ud0ljGVhn6M

Funny, coming from you I am 100% sure it is about something negative on the Z. :D

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: scooby70 on September 01, 2018, 08:45:43 am
Funny, coming from you I am 100% sure it is about something negative on the Z. :D

Cheers,
Bernard

As opposed to the constant stream of over enthusiasm bordering on complete hyperbole from you?

Bernard.

I couldn't give a flying who makes what and I can't see why I should as I have no vested interest in any system. No one I know works for any photography equipment company and I have no shares or any financial or otherwise interest in any of them.

I started by photography journey with a Kodak instamatic and I still love simple cameras. I moved on through SLR's and RF's and owned a Nikon SLR for decades. I moved to digital with a Fuji S602 before moving to DSLR's with Canon and owned 300D, 10D, a 20D for over seven years and then a 5D for a few years until going mirrorless with Panasonic and now Sony and Panasonic. I currently own lenses made by Canon, Nikon, Voigtlander, Sigma, Panasonic, Olympus, Tokina, Minolta and a few I've doubtless not listed there.

My point is that I'm completely and utterly brand agnostic and I couldn't give a flying who makes what or where they make it.
 
So why oh why would I waste my time by going out of my way to deliberately search the net looking for something I can post here that's overly or unfairly negative about this new system?

I'm following developments with interest and I posted the above as it's one of the few I've so far seen that is as far as I know unbiassed and not from someone who's objectivity could be questioned even if unfairly so because they're an ambassador (or whatever they may be called) or otherwise somehow affiliated to or known or suspected to be friendly towards Nikon.

ok?

:D

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Jeremy Roussak on September 01, 2018, 08:58:45 am
Insofar as it contains information or informed comment, this is an interesting thread. The bickering needs to stop, though.

Jeremy
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 01, 2018, 09:29:57 am
... The bickering needs to stop, though.

Yes, criticize the behavior, not the person ;)

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: chez on September 01, 2018, 09:41:37 am
We all have different levels of expectations. ;)

I have been frustrated by cateyes bokeh for many many years.

Do they make or break an image? No more than 45mp vs 12mp of CA vs perfectly corrected lenses.

And many images don’t have blurred speculat highlights. For those that do, their share is considered by me and many others as important.

Good for you if you don’t care.

Cheers,
Bernard

It's not me that does not care...it's the people who view or purchase my images that don't care. Like I said it's the bit head photographers that care about things like bokeh quality and the sharpness pixel peeping in the far corners.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 01, 2018, 09:44:35 am
It's not me that does not care...it's the people who view or purchase my images that don't care...

People also purchase Elvis or dogs playing cards on velvet.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Hulyss on September 01, 2018, 10:58:18 am
Pre-reviews are pretty mixed but I'm not as excited as the annoncement of the DF (even if it turned to be an half camera). I see a lot of drama over all the forums… it killed some of the magic.

I really like the idea of mirror less but I fear to not be pleased once I get one. My mother own Canon, Sony and Leica so I can test some other brands. I bought the XT1 back in the day with the holly trinity but sold it after some month of use, was not my cup of tea and get back to my D700. The canon DSLR and UI isn't my cup of tea (I love canon colors), sony is a big NoNoo and Leica out of my reach and not convenient for what I do.


I still shoot with only one camera, corporate, weeding and all, my jack of all trade with one CF slot : the D700.

Never got a problem (might have one if I continue reading forums …), never got a complain from my clients.

I really need an upgrade and I thought it was now, with solid mirror less offer from Nikon but … I do not think so, at all. By what I've seen actually on the AF, my D700 track better (as well as most semipro DSLR). Sony have a good AF but nowhere on this planet I'm gonna go sony route. Lenses for the Z aren't what I expected.


I the other hand, Canon come with a new camera and the lenses correspond to what I expected from Nikon : The 28-70f2 and the 50f1.2 with AF. If the AF is proven very good on the EOS R I might jump, because I also need video too and especially for the lenses and because the body is less green "auto" on a dial... I'm only 40 but I start to be tired to wait Nikon checking the right boxes.


Time will tell but neither Nikon or Canon might check the right boxes in what I expect to dump my D700.

IMHO, the Z cameras are very overpriced, especially the lenses. The D850 still the king.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Hulyss on September 01, 2018, 11:18:17 am
Paradoxically, there is actually only one device (mirror less) that deeply seduced me a few years ago: The Sony RX1R

Although it is a Sony, its compactness and optical performance have delighted me. I would have liked to buy one if I had the money.


Even if the AF is not at the rendez vous, it might be the perfect compagnon for a DLSR.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on September 01, 2018, 03:50:08 pm
I didn't think this Nikon would interest me after seeing the original specs but the more I think about it I think it makes sense as an addition to the Nikon DSLRs.
The image quality seems to be similar to the D850, which means as good as it gets; if the lenses are sharp you can have a significantly more compact kit for landscapes/hiking and things like autofocus and others don't have to be top of the line.
Why no a Sony? Well, you already have some Nikon DSLRs lenses. For somebody starting from zero it will be a little more difficult but probably still competitive. The sensor and colors are as good or better and the weather sealing allegedly is superior. The downsides will be the lenses, fewer options for now. If the 15-30 comes out fast and it's very good, then along with the 24-70 and a bright prime you are set. For the telephoto (in landscapes, not wildlife) you can add the 70-200 F4 with the adapter and call it the day.

I would wait to see what Fuji does, both on camera side: the X-T3 and the GFX 50R, and on the lens side: the 16-80 F4 WR, before a final decision. The GFX 50R in particular might put a lot of pressure.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Telecaster on September 01, 2018, 03:57:00 pm
Yes, but:
- the Zeiss has cat eyes oof highlights when shot at f1.8 , does it not?
- it doesn’t use aspherical glass elements, which is why it doesn’t exhibit any weird texture in those areas.

There's a wee bit of catty-coma in the frame edges/corners below f/2 or so. I've attached an example, at f/1.4, from a pic taken last year that I neglected to delete at the time.  :D  I like coma effects, but then I tend to like artifacts in general. It's why I so often use lenses wide open. The coma is due to oblique light-ray angles at wide apertures despite the lens' "Distagon" (retrofocus) design.

The lens does use aspherical elements, though: two of 'em. It has floating elements as well.

-Dave-
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Telecaster on September 01, 2018, 04:06:54 pm
As far as I can tell the Nikon is the first compactish wide using aspherical glass elements for excellent corner performance with such pure rendering.

Oh, also, the Zeiss is not a compact lens…at least not for an RF 35mm. It's IMO on the verge of being too big.

-Dave-
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: John Camp on September 01, 2018, 05:08:17 pm
People also purchase Elvis or dogs playing cards on velvet.

I've had my eye out for a while for a good print rendition of Dogs Playing Cards. But I want the classic (Coolidge) one, not the rip-offs. I haven't seen one on velvet.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Bernard ODonovan on September 01, 2018, 06:57:18 pm
Random YouTube tests

https://youtube.com/watch?v=tfmgaMyApyg

https://youtube.com/watch?v=AcZFY99St9c

https://youtube.com/watch?v=K2OogKTGGWE

I like the approach Nikon has taken with the new lens mount. The prime MTFs suggest very sharp lenses. Good balance of size vs performance for the 1.8s.  I wish them well with the new cameras too...

Interesting card door come thumb rest. Not sure I would have designed it to do both roles...

A great start and a D5 type Zee to follow...

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: chez on September 01, 2018, 07:58:42 pm
People also purchase Elvis or dogs playing cards on velvet.

Right...and if they are willing to pay the price I'd ask for those things...I'd have no problem selling to them.

Obviously you would not sell a great portrait shot to a paying customer with their wallet open because there is an onion bokeh in the upper right corner.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 01, 2018, 08:25:11 pm
...I'd have no problem selling to them...

Some of us have higher standards when offering things for sale.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 01, 2018, 10:41:37 pm
Some of us have higher standards when offering things for sale.

+1 :D

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: KLaban on September 02, 2018, 12:26:19 pm
Oh, also, the Zeiss is not a compact lens…at least not for an RF 35mm. It's IMO on the verge of being too big.

-Dave-

And that's the only reason I've not bought it.

Hate rangefinder blockage.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: scooby70 on September 02, 2018, 06:03:31 pm
Paradoxically, there is actually only one device (mirror less) that deeply seduced me a few years ago: The Sony RX1R

Although it is a Sony, its compactness and optical performance have delighted me. I would have liked to buy one if I had the money.


Even if the AF is not at the rendez vous, it might be the perfect compagnon for a DLSR.

Have you noticed the rumor sites are saying that a Zeiss branded fixed lens camera is coming? It'll be interesting to see what they do.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: scooby70 on September 02, 2018, 06:06:45 pm
Just a thought...

No one is launching with 35 and 85mm f1.8's and 24/28-70mm and 70-200mm zooms. I'd have thought that would have been a good start.

Just goes to show I know nothing :D
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 02, 2018, 08:35:43 pm
Just a thought...

No one is launching with 35 and 85mm f1.8's and 24/28-70mm and 70-200mm zooms. I'd have thought that would have been a good start.

Just goes to show I know nothing :D

There is need for coherence btwn camera spec and lenses spec IMHO.

Altgough the Zs are nearly pro spec, they aren’t fully. My guess is that we will get one or two full pro-spec body with the 24-70 f2.8 and 70-200 f2.8 next year.

Those needing a full pro mirrorless setup now should go the Sony route. Plain and simple.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: eronald on September 02, 2018, 09:32:47 pm
Have you noticed the rumor sites are saying that a Zeiss branded fixed lens camera is coming? It'll be interesting to see what they do.

I think it submerged again. The teases were pulled.

Edmund
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: D Fuller on September 02, 2018, 11:17:09 pm
Just a thought...

No one is launching with 35 and 85mm f1.8's and 24/28-70mm and 70-200mm zooms. I'd have thought that would have been a good start.

Just goes to show I know nothing :D

I don’t think you’re so far off. Within the first year, Nikon has a whole set of f/1.8 primes from 20 to 85 matched to the scale of the Zcameras, plus two different sets of zooms. I like that roadmap a lot.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: scooby70 on September 03, 2018, 05:25:43 am
I think it submerged again. The teases were pulled.

Edmund

They were pulled but the rumor is back with people saying it's real and that it will be announced on 27th September. A short time will therefore obviously tell :D

I did think about getting an RX1 but I thought it wouldn't be truly pocketable and would need to go in a bag and I therefore might as well go for an A7 and have the advantage of being able to change lenses. Plus I have a possibly irrational fear of getting sensor contamination and although with a fixed lens camera it's probably less likely if it happens it'll be a lot harder to deal with.
 
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on September 03, 2018, 06:30:21 pm
Nikon came relatively close to Bernard's ideal launch lenses (the 70-200 is missing, and the fourth lens will be the exotic Noct instead of the 70-200 or something else with broad application like a wide prime or the 14-30 zoom). A good start. It looks like their expansion roadmap is relatively sensible, too. The first year of the system is supposed to include that 70-200, a relatively fast portrait lens, a wide prime, the 14-30, a 24-70 f2.8 (not sure I'd have duplicated a focal length only a stop apart in the first year) and the Noct. Most of those have broad application - hopefully, the quality will be excellent. Nothing on the roadmap is really long, but Nikon is a DSLR company, and anyone who wants a 600mm f4 probably has a D850 or a D5 to go with it (if you occasionally want to use it on your Z7, the adapter is a pretty good solution that preserves focus and VR).
Overall, a nice opening kit and roadmap that gets important lenses out quickly and adds some interesting oddities. I like the choice to prioritize f4 zooms over f2.8 at first - it preserves the size and weight advantage of mirrorless. I actually wish the first-year 70-200 were an f4 - save the f2.8 lenses for the second and third year (assuming the f4 lenses are optically excellent, and the difference to the f2.8 models is just a stop of speed, not image quality).

Looking at what other camera manufacturers have done (and are doing)...

Fuji went for classic rangefinder lenses (correctly changing the focal lengths to account for APS-C), added a little gem of an 18-55 (the only one on the market with decent image quality), and then filled in the line in a generally sensible manner. They have a high quality lineup - only a couple of duds (and they even label their duds XC instead of XF). The current Fuji line stretches from 10-400 mm with quite good coverage in both primes and zooms - anything missing (after the next couple of introductions) is an exotic (tilt-shift, fisheye).
The next two lenses fill some of the last holes.  One is long and fast (200 f2 with TCs that get it to 300 f2.8 and 400 f4 - remembering the focal length conversion, that's roughly equivalent to 300/420/600 on FF, with the longer options being a tiny bit slow from a DOF perspective (although fast from a light-gathering perspective). The other is an 8-16 zoom that gets the widest lens on the system to 12mm equivalent  - only Canon's 11-24 gets wider. Fuji's system is behind only the DSLR giants in comprehensiveness, and the quality is excellent. They could use a first-party fisheye (there's a Samyang/Rokinon), and a tilt-shift lens or two...

Micro 4/3 has a very comprehensive lineup, including some gems and some duds. There are even more options than Fuji, including a first-party fisheye that is one of Fuji's few gaps, and you can find a high quality version of just about anything you want, often after navigating three or four lousy lenses to get there. The real strengths are compactness and IS - there are quite a few pancakes with surprising image quality, the pocket-sized long telephotos have shocking reach and the Olympus 12-100 on the E-M1 mk II (lens and body stabilizing together) can be handheld at 1/4 second or even longer - or can shoot video with an "internal Steadicam". The weakness is that the same little sensor with a big crop factor that made those telephoto fields of view amazing and allowed the IS means that depth of field and noise are compromised. Most of the telephotos are f5.6 on the long end to keep them small - that's somewhat slow even measuring straight light-gathering and possible shutter speeds, and it's roughly f11 equivalent from a DOF perspective. People have worried about wide angles on the small sensor, but there are a couple of zooms that get down to 7mm for a 14mm FOV.
The exotics are missing, and some of the long ones may be impossible if you care about subject isolation. The depth of field equivalent of a 300 mm f2.8 on the little sensor is a 150 mm f1.4, and I've never heard of such a lens on any system (the APS-C equivalent 200 mm f2.0 is not all that hard - Canon, Nikon and soon Fuji all make them in decent numbers ). A 600 mm f4 would be a 300 mm f2, which IS actually possible, if difficult - Nikon once made a few in manual focus. Even matching the depth of field of a f2.8 zoom on full-frame requires a f1.4 zoom (impossible?).
No reason tilt-shift lenses wouldn't work - they'd require even higher mechanical precision than usual (maybe electronically controlled)?  The other option if someone wants to get really creative is to use a tilting/shifting sensor! The small sensor means there's plenty of room, which is why the IBIS works so well. Many lenses probably have extra coverage, and the movements needed are small, again due to the small sensor. Could Olympus do this on the E-M1 mk III???

Sony began their lens lineups by smoking something odd... The initial lenses on APS-C were almost completely random, and the FF lineup didn't start much better. The FF lineup has matured nicely and is now quite comprehensive with many high-quality options, although there are still a few weak or missing lenses in surprising places. The 24-70 f4 is still the "Zeiss" that was released with the original a7, and is widely known to be inferior to most other lenses in that range. The widest first-party prime is 28mm, although there is a Zeiss Batis 18mm and a Sigma Art 14mm. The G-Masters have helped a lot. I'm not a Sony shooter, and I don't have close friends who are, so I don't know many of the lenses (does the relatively new 24-105 fill in for the weak 24-70?).
The APS-C lineup is still fairly random - a lot of cheap consumer zooms that don't do the sensors justice mixed in with a few nice higher-end lenses. Some of the weaker lenses are quite notably poor. At least one review of the 16-50 kit zoom that will be most people's first lens called it the worst lens they had ever reviewed, and one of the pancakes has been compared to a Lensbaby.  Is the newish 18-135 which is showing up in kits the first stronger normal zoom? It would be hard to put together a nice Sony APS-C kit without using mainly FF lenses (and why not use FF bodies if you're carrying the larger lenses)?

Canon appears to have stolen some of Sony's smoking material and inhaled more deeply ... The APS-C lenses make some sense if you look at the system only from an entry-level consumer viewpoint, but not much even then. With the midrange bodies they have been releasing, these lenses make no sense at all.  Two primes and four variable-aperture zooms with overlapping focal length ranges, with three of the zooms being f6.3 at the long end, with no lens over $500. One prime is a 22mm  f2 pancake - not a bad choice - compact and a nice focal length given the sensor size. The other is a uselessly short 28mm macro lens - it's not quite a 50mm equivalent, it doesn't have the working distance to be a useful macro, and it's f3.5, limiting its usefulness as a short normal lens. Two of the zooms are meant to be the standard consumer pair (18-55 and 55-200), but have a couple of oddities - one is that the short lens (unusual), as well as the 55-200 (sadly, common) are f6.3. The second is that the short lens is 15-45mm instead of 18-55, which adds a nice bit of wide angle, but leaves a perplexing gap in the portrait lens range. There is an 18-150 travel zoom - the extra bit of telephoto over a standard 18-135 is welcome, our old friend f6.3 is not. The final zoom is another odd choice - it's an 11-22mm. They have that extra bit of wide on the standard zoom, so the only range in which the wide angle is unique is 11-15mm. Something like a 9-18mm would have been a far better fit here.
The initial lineup for their FF system doesn't look much better, although the problems are different. Two of the lenses make pretty good sense - the 35mm is a great choice, and the 24-105mm f4 is a good walkaround zoom (although quite a bit heavier than Nikon's 24-70). I would personally prefer the 24-70 to save the weight, but this is a matter of preference - either is a reasonable choice for a first zoom for a mirrorless system.
The other two choices are perplexing to say the least. A 50mm prime is great, but a 1 kg 50mm f1.2 prime doesn't go well with a small mirrorless body (at least not as the only 50 mm option). The 28-70mm f2.0 is ridiculously heavy at 1430 grams - it's between 1.5x and twice as heavy as common 24-70 f2.8 lenses. Why start the system with two big, heavy, expensive, exotically fast lenses? The 28-70 would be a nice exotic addition to a system that already had f4 and f2.8 lenses in that focal length range (it would be an interesting addition to Canon's EF system, for example).
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: John Camp on September 03, 2018, 06:41:07 pm
<big snip>
Micro 4/3 has a very comprehensive lineup, including some gems and some duds. The exotics are missing... <big snip>

Good post. I have a couple of GX8s that I use all the time, and would point out that Voightlander offers two f/0.95 lenses in native m4/3 mounts. One at 25mm (50mm equiv) and one at 42.5 (85mm equiv.)
I have both and they are okay, if not great.

I didn't know this, but (after making the post above) I found that Voightlander also offers 10.5mm (21) and 17.5mm (35mm) lenses at f/0.95 in native m4/3 mounts.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 03, 2018, 07:19:17 pm
Dan,

I share your views 100%.

But as I wrote elsewhere, I think we must look at the Canon initial lenses from China and think in terms of bling culture. IMHO, the exotics where not designed to be used by "working" photographers (although I am sure some will put them to good use), they were designed to please Chinese fanboys with big cash to spend who want to be seen with the bigger lens than their Nikon shooter friends. Those will be a good match for the high end Audis that roam the streets of Pudong at night (and yes, we are talking about perhaps .1% of the population of China, meaning 1+ million people, enough to sell a few thousands of 28-70 f2).

Whether we like it or not, the dominantly western older crowd at LL is mostly irrelevant to marketing oriented companies such as Canon. They design what will sell in China. Obviously Canon North America will deny this vigorously but that's the only way I can make sense from the decisions Canon took. Some may call this Leicaisation. ;)

More traditional companies (or I should probably write companies who don't understand the world as well) such as Nikon are probably still thinking a bit about us and that may be the reason why they designed high quality compact lenses to go with a compact camera... but that is making way too much sense I guess (although it could be argued that the 58mm f0.95 is targetting the same crowd). ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on September 03, 2018, 10:12:34 pm
Maybe so - Bernards's is the best explanation I have heard for these lenses - I like the term Leicaization... I believe there was an interview with Andreas Kaufmann (spelling?), the president of Leica, in which he admitted something like "we could leave the sensor out of half the cameras we make - we just don't know which ones will never be used". Hopefully, Canon doesn't go too far down that road.

Dan
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Telecaster on September 04, 2018, 05:06:59 pm
Re. Leicaization: those of us who love using rangefinders can benefit from cameras bought but never (or rarely) used. When a new model comes out the now "obsolete" one often gets sold at a decent discount. This is how I got both my M8s and M9, all from the same person. With the M10 we decided to cut right to the chase: I bought the camera and my acquaintance reimbursed me for what likely would've been the eventual discount.  ;D  In the meantime he mostly keeps it but sometimes I borrow it too.

Re. m43 and noise: I know this is a personal preference thing. I personally like having some texture in my photos—pleasing grain is the main thing I miss from film days—and the sensor in the GX8 creates the most grain-like noise I've seen so far. The attached pic is just a post-firmware-upgrade test from earlier this afternoon…my 14–140mm lens now supports dual sensor/lens IS. It's at ISO 3200 and shows something of what I mean by pleasing texture. This tiny lens has quite a nice OOF character too at the long end, and can focus down to 30cm at an "equivalent" of 280mm. IMO controlling depth of field with an m43 camera is mostly a matter of technique. Get out of the "full frame" mindset and you'll be fine.

-Dave-
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: DougDolde on September 04, 2018, 06:46:49 pm
I think what it comes down to is if you already have a D850, the Z7 would be a downgrade.  If you are trying to decide between the two go for the D850
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on September 04, 2018, 07:28:48 pm
We've had a real-life battery life test on the Z7 from a photographer who goes by nikonricci on Instagram and YouTube. Obviously not definitive, but looking very good. He got just over 1000 shots using it for street photography with a little video, and close to 2000 doing wildlife with AF (500mm PF through the adapter) and VR  - both sound like some version of real-life conditions. He used the camera's built-in shots per charge counter to determine life... He also got a little over 2 hours of video on a static scene (so no refocusing).

All three of these numbers sound like what we'd expect from an en-el15 camera, maybe even a little better. They aren't as good as a d850 with no live view and little chimping, but they wouldn't be expected to be, either. They're also roughly in the range with the "big-battery" Sonys, and more than twice what the "small-battery" Sonys get out of their much smaller battery.

I'd expect the Canon R to post numbers in the same range - FF mirrorless with a big battery gets around 1000 shots, more in a really good use case...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 04, 2018, 08:56:32 pm
I think what it comes down to is if you already have a D850, the Z7 would be a downgrade.  If you are trying to decide between the two go for the D850

As a D850/D5 owner, I see things a bit differently.

This was already explained earlier in this thread in minute details, but there are objective advantages of a high-end mirrorless body such as the Z7, including the size, the advantages of EVF that have been explained at length by Sony a7 users, some AF advantages,...

I will buy a Z7 and test it in parallel to my D850 to see their respective value for native and F mount lenses for the kind of allround shooting I have been doing with my D850.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 05, 2018, 02:22:37 am
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=372&v=KyonQ_OsA5Q

I know, this is Nikon marketing. But what struck me here is the focus on the quality of the EVF around 5:45. It appears that the Chief Engineer who developped the Z system feels that the EVF is the most remarkable aspect of the camera, on top of the mount.

I compare that to the 2 sec comment of the Northup in their famous video when they speak of this EVF as being no different from that of other mirrorless cameras... and I am surprised again. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on September 05, 2018, 10:40:31 am
Sight unseen (I'm going to a Nikon Z launch event tomorrow, and will also attend a local Canon R event when I hear of one), I far prefer the Nikon for my needs (landscape, often on long backcountry hikes)...

1.) D850 sensor vs. 5DmkIV sensor. For me, the whole point of full-frame is image quality that nothing less can bring - I shoot 24 MP APS-C Fuji, and would only consider something that can really beat that. Canon offers a barely noticeable 6 extra MP, and about 2/3 of a stop of extra DR - mostly by setting the (indicated - I know that what Fuji considers 200 is more like 125 to Canon or Nikon) ISO below Fuji's 200 minimum. Nikon offers nearly double the pixels I have, and something close to 1.5 stops of extra DR (by using ISO 64).

2.) Lenses. This is tricky, because it requires assumptions on optical quality. Everybody who's shot with the Nikon says the lenses are great, but that is still in the "remains to be seen" category. I like the size and weight of the initial Nikon lenses much better. Two of Canon's four are so heavy I would never consider them, and there's no roadmap to see what's coming. Nikon has a 24-70 that I consider a near-perfect backpacking lens (Canon's 24-105 is a little big, but acceptable), and a roadmap that shows a reasonable-size 14-30 on its way. If those Nikkors live up to the claimed quality, it's a darned nice start.

3.)IBIS. Nikon yes, Canon no...

4.)Weather sealing. Nikon specifically says D850 level, which is a very small step down from their best (D5), and is built to survive the backcountry. Canon says (insert sound of crickets) "it has some sealing". My guess is 6D/80D type sealing, which is similar to the D610 and a little better than the Sonys. If it had their best or something close, I'd hope they'd say it. Maybe it does, and that'll come out soon?The latest Fujis are similar to a D850, and I don't want to go down a level...

5.) Cards. I don't love one card slot on either camera, but Nikon's is XQD with improved speed and durability. At this level, I'm not concerned with replacing a few hundred dollars worth of memory cards. That would be a real consideration on a sub-$1000 camera.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on September 05, 2018, 01:30:58 pm
Sight unseen (I'm going to a Nikon Z launch event tomorrow, and will also attend a local Canon R event when I hear of one), I far prefer the Nikon for my needs (landscape, often on long backcountry hikes)...

1.) D850 sensor vs. 5DmkIV sensor. For me, the whole point of full-frame is image quality that nothing less can bring - I shoot 24 MP APS-C Fuji, and would only consider something that can really beat that. Canon offers a barely noticeable 6 extra MP, and about 2/3 of a stop of extra DR - mostly by setting the (indicated - I know that what Fuji considers 200 is more like 125 to Canon or Nikon) ISO below Fuji's 200 minimum. Nikon offers nearly double the pixels I have, and something close to 1.5 stops of extra DR (by using ISO 64).

2.) Lenses. This is tricky, because it requires assumptions on optical quality. Everybody who's shot with the Nikon says the lenses are great, but that is still in the "remains to be seen" category. I like the size and weight of the initial Nikon lenses much better. Two of Canon's four are so heavy I would never consider them, and there's no roadmap to see what's coming. Nikon has a 24-70 that I consider a near-perfect backpacking lens (Canon's 24-105 is a little big, but acceptable), and a roadmap that shows a reasonable-size 14-30 on its way. If those Nikkors live up to the claimed quality, it's a darned nice start.

3.)IBIS. Nikon yes, Canon no...

4.)Weather sealing. Nikon specifically says D850 level, which is a very small step down from their best (D5), and is built to survive the backcountry. Canon says (insert sound of crickets) "it has some sealing". My guess is 6D/80D type sealing, which is similar to the D610 and a little better than the Sonys. If it had their best or something close, I'd hope they'd say it. Maybe it does, and that'll come out soon?The latest Fujis are similar to a D850, and I don't want to go down a level...

5.) Cards. I don't love one card slot on either camera, but Nikon's is XQD with improved speed and durability. At this level, I'm not concerned with replacing a few hundred dollars worth of memory cards. That would be a real consideration on a sub-$1000 camera.

What you say is close to what I would say. I do have also m43 and full frame Nikon dSLR, but Fuji gets the most use. Let us know how the decision evolves for you.

PS. Don't forget Fuji, X-T3 later today and GFX 50R in few months.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: faberryman on September 05, 2018, 01:34:47 pm
For a current Fuji user thinking of moving to FF mirrorless for still photography (no video), and no investment in Canon, Nikon or Sony lenses, is there any reason to pick the Canon or Nikon over the Sony? I'm not seeing what these new systems bring to the table. Looks like me too offerings.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: D Fuller on September 05, 2018, 02:13:00 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=372&v=KyonQ_OsA5Q

I know, this is Nikon marketing. But what struck me here is the focus on the quality of the EVF around 5:45. It appears that the Chief Engineer who developped the Z system feels that the EVF is the most remarkable aspect of the camera, on top of the mount.

I compare that to the 2 sec comment of the Northup in their famous video when they speak of this EVF as being no different from that of other mirrorless cameras... and I am surprised again. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Is this the same Tony Northrup who rated the a7r3 better than the D850 in battery life because it had USB charging? And you’re surprised?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Telecaster on September 05, 2018, 03:05:06 pm
Is this the same Tony Northrup who rated the a7r3 better than the D850 in battery life because it had USB charging? And you’re surprised?

If I remember right Tony likes USB charging, when travelling, 'cuz it allows you to charge two batteries at once: one via external charger & the other in-camera. I've done this too. He wasn't making a general statement of superiority.

-Dave-
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on September 05, 2018, 08:09:25 pm
Unfortunately for Canon, DPReview has now confirmed (seemingly directly with Canon, although this is not completely clear) that the EOS-R has 6D level weather sealing, and it sounds like 6D level build in most other ways?

Nikon is clearly saying "it's a mirrorless D850" about the build quality and specifically the sealing.

For serious outdoor use, the difference between 6D (equivalent to D610 in Nikonese) build and D850 (somewhat above 5D, although not quite 1D, in Canonspeak) build is highly significant...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: D Fuller on September 05, 2018, 11:18:38 pm
If I remember right Tony likes USB charging, when travelling, 'cuz it allows you to charge two batteries at once: one via external charger & the other in-camera. I've done this too. He wasn't making a general statement of superiority.

-Dave-

Yes, actually he was. (It was in their a7r3 vs D850 video. He made equally silly calls in the D850's favor, but I can't remember what they  were at the moment, and I'm not interested enough to watch the vid again.)

I get the value of USB charging--espeially for the earlier Sony cameras that needed a basketfull of bateries to get through a day. But that's really not the point. The point is that I find him awfully hard to take seriously because makes a lot of silly calls like that.

He can never seem to separate his own personal preferences from what the camera does, and that's not really a good trait for a reviewer. It's fine--even good to discuss your preferences as a reviewer, but it's not fine to say "the camera doesn't work" when what you really mean is "the camera doesn't work the way I'd prefer it to work." That becomes even more of a problem when you've only got an hour with a camera.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on September 05, 2018, 11:33:18 pm
I'm going to a Z-series launch event tomorrow - supposedly bodies and lenses will be available to handle. I'll post my impressions tomorrow night - I won't have a chance to take it out to shoot anything but the inside of a camera shop, but I'll bring my X-H1 to compare side by side...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Bo_Dez on September 06, 2018, 06:28:20 am
I don't understand the negativity of the Z cameras.

It's a very solid release and I'm sure will have D850 performance in a drastically smaller package with all the mirrorless bells and whistles, IBIS etc.

I don't care about the single card slot.

This will supplement and complement my Medium Format use very nicely.

BUT. That Canon f2 zoom has made me pause on my order, what a game changer.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: faberryman on September 06, 2018, 07:55:18 am
BUT. That Canon f2 zoom has made me pause on my order, what a game changer.
Kind of depends on the game.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 06, 2018, 08:57:18 am
It has started...

https://www.newsshooter.com/2018/09/06/mtf-services-nikon-z-mount-adapters/

I am waiting for the first adapter that will enable to use Sony FE lenses no the Nikon Z. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on September 06, 2018, 09:34:49 am
Is that practical, or are the flange distances too similar? I haven't seen a mirrorless to mirrorless adapter (other than Leica M lenses to various bodies, and the M mount is substantially deeper than newer mirrorless mounts)...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: davidgp on September 06, 2018, 10:12:04 am
Is that practical, or are the flange distances too similar? I haven't seen a mirrorless to mirrorless adapter (other than Leica M lenses to various bodies, and the M mount is substantially deeper than newer mirrorless mounts)...

Well, Nikon Z is 16 mm and Sony E is 18 mm, so 2 mm to make a metal with chips that translate electronic signals... I’m not a mechanical or electronic engineer... but I see it a bit on a very difficult side to do...




http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: D Fuller on September 06, 2018, 11:22:48 am
It has started...

https://www.newsshooter.com/2018/09/06/mtf-services-nikon-z-mount-adapters/

I am waiting for the first adapter that will enable to use Sony FE lenses no the Nikon Z. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

That's a welcome report. I've been anxiously awaiting the first PL adapter from a quality manufacturer. Very interested to see how a Cooke Speed Panchro looks on the Z7.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: davidgp on September 06, 2018, 12:32:08 pm
Is it me... or is Lloyd mixing things here: https://diglloyd.com/blog/2018/20180906_0834-CanonEOSR-implications-for-lenses.html

Quote
Since gaining 2mm of length just means extending the lens barrel*, the Canon design is more friendly to adapting lenses designed for Sony mirrorless, versus the Nikon Z mount.

It will be the Nikon Z the one that is more easy to have a Zeiss Loxia lens adapted, right?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system: pronunciation?
Post by: BJL on September 06, 2018, 02:44:01 pm
For Bernard in particular: what is the official Japanese pronunciation, “zed” or “zee”?
I know we westerners mangle both”Nikon” and “Canon”, so let’s get this one right!
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system: pronunciation?
Post by: Telecaster on September 06, 2018, 03:55:22 pm
For Bernard in particular: what is the official Japanese pronunciation, “zed” or “zee”?
I know we westerners mangle both”Nikon” and “Canon”, so let’s get this one right!

As Mike Johnston (at The Online Photographer (http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2018/09/the-answer-to-the-nikon-question.html)) has recently noted, "Nikon" is a made-up name and the company's own policy is effectively "say it however you like."  :)

-Dave-
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 06, 2018, 04:28:34 pm
Well, Nikon Z is 16 mm and Sony E is 18 mm, so 2 mm to make a metal with chips that translate electronic signals... I’m not a mechanical or electronic engineer... but I see it a bit on a very difficult side to do...

2mm isn’t enough with the same diameter, but the Nikon may be larger enough to do something still.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system: pronunciation?
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 06, 2018, 04:29:17 pm
For Bernard in particular: what is the official Japanese pronunciation, “zed” or “zee”?
I know we westerners mangle both”Nikon” and “Canon”, so let’s get this one right!

If I recall it was Zeeeeeeeeee.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: davidgp on September 06, 2018, 05:28:24 pm
2mm isn’t enough with the same diameter, but the Nikon may be larger enough to do something still.

Cheers,
Bernard
Yes... as I say, not an engineer


http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 06, 2018, 07:59:45 pm
https://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/nikon-z7/Y-BETA-DSC_0092.HTM

This is shot with the 24-70mm f4 wide open at f4 at the weakest focal length of the lens (70mm)...

Look at corner/edge sharpness of this out of camera jpg image with very light sharpening, this is simply incredibly good, regardless of the price/size of this lens.

From what I have seen, few 24-70 f2.8 pro zooms reach this level of performance at f4.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: chez on September 06, 2018, 08:27:16 pm
Unfortunately for Canon, DPReview has now confirmed (seemingly directly with Canon, although this is not completely clear) that the EOS-R has 6D level weather sealing, and it sounds like 6D level build in most other ways?

Nikon is clearly saying "it's a mirrorless D850" about the build quality and specifically the sealing.

For serious outdoor use, the difference between 6D (equivalent to D610 in Nikonese) build and D850 (somewhat above 5D, although not quite 1D, in Canonspeak) build is highly significant...

What a company claims versus reality can be quite different. Let's wait until lensrentals breaks them apart.

As a side note, how many 6d cameras have you heard of that died out in the field due to the weather sealing?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: chez on September 06, 2018, 08:29:25 pm
Kind of depends on the game.

Yeh, I'm still trying to locate this game where I'd need a 3 lb lens costing $3,000 in order to get the shot.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: chez on September 06, 2018, 08:30:50 pm
It has started...

https://www.newsshooter.com/2018/09/06/mtf-services-nikon-z-mount-adapters/

I am waiting for the first adapter that will enable to use Sony FE lenses no the Nikon Z. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

I always knew you were a closet Sony lens fan...the Nikon cheerleading is just smoke screen.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 06, 2018, 08:47:00 pm
I always knew you were a closet Sony lens fan...the Nikon cheerleading is just smoke screen.

I believe that Sony makes excellent equipment, both cameras and lenses and have been remarkably innovative. I don't remember ever writing the opposite.

Contrary to what you seem to be thinking, it is possible to think highly of Nikon without having a negative opinion of other brands.

It is just about being objective about the respective values being delivered.

The Z seems to be delivering a unique value proposition with its compact and super high quality lenses, which happens to be exactly what I was expecting of mirrorless (that's what a modern digital Leica M should have been all along), it doesn't mean I don't recognize and embrace the amazing qualities of the a7rIII for example.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: D Fuller on September 06, 2018, 09:57:06 pm
Is it me... or is Lloyd mixing things here: https://diglloyd.com/blog/2018/20180906_0834-CanonEOSR-implications-for-lenses.html

It will be the Nikon Z the one that is more easy to have a Zeiss Loxia lens adapted, right?

You are correct.

Though to be sure, I wouldn’t expect it to be a problem for Zeiss to make a version of the Loxias for either mount. An adapter, though, that’s a different story. It’s not likely to be possible to adapt Sony or Nikon Z lenses to the canon with its longer flange/focal distance.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on September 07, 2018, 12:50:36 am
I had a chance to handle a Z7 today (in a retailer, no card in it - but I could examine images on the camera screen). It's extremely well built, right in the same size range with other SLR-style mirrorless bodies (actually slightly smaller than some). I had my own X-H1 next to it and the Nikon is (very slightly) the smaller of the two. Controls are beautifully placed - the AF-area joystick in particular is right where I would want it. IBIS works - I was getting sharp shots at 1/20 second at 70mm.

The body feels great in hand - it's small and light, but every inch a modern Nikon. It has the controls of every high-end Nikon going back to when Guigiaro designed the F5. Sonys have always felt a bit too computer-ish to me - they have wonderful features, but nobody has really given any thought to how they are used as a camera (they get a little better with each generation). Canon and Nikon both have very nice control schemes, and Fuji's classic controls also make a lot of sense. The Z7 definitely speaks Nikonese, so Canon shooters will have to get used to it (from the looks of it, the EOS-R may feel quite Canonish, although without the traditional low-mounted wheel).

The viewfinder is impressive - I didn't think it's any better than an X-H1, but it's certainly no worse either, and the X-H1 has one of the newest and best EVFs on the market. They have a very impressive multi-axis level that actually shows the plane the camera is sitting in (it looks like an aircraft artificial horizon), making leveling exceptionally easy. I don't wear glasses, but the eyepoint is very good from what I could tell.

From what little I could tell, the 24-70 is a very sharp lens - the number of targets in a camera store is limited, so I suspect the pic that Imaging Resource posted is a better guide than anything I got - that's really quite impressive. I did photograph a flower arrangement in the store (working distance ~2 feet), and got pixel-level sharpness on the camera monitor.  The MTF charts are actually better than the latest Nikkor 24-70 f2.8 E ED VR, which is slightly over twice the weight. The first sample images we are seeing tend to indicate that those MTF charts may be reasonably accurate!

The build quality on the 24-70 is good, although it is plastickier than really high-end lenses.  Nikon showed a diagram of the sealing and it is excellent (made better by the fact that there are no switches on the lens). The sealing is a bunch of thick-looking ring seals around the zoom ring, the control (focus by wire - but definable to aperture or exposure compensation as well) ring and both ends of the barrel. There is quite a bit of plastic on the lens, although it has a metal barrel. It feels far better than any kit lens (except the Fujinon 18-55mm f2.8-4, which really stretches the definition of a kit lens), and somewhat better than something like a Nikkor 24-120mm f4. This is a very compact and relatively lightweight lens, especially given its capabilities. They had two different examples on display, one of which had a stiffer zoom ring than the other.

Overall, my impression was wow, that's a 45 MP camera in a tiny package. If you value portability and image quality in a rugged package, it's the state of the art. Of course, it's not for everyone - I didn't think it focused quite as snappily as an XH-1,although settings may not have been optimal, and it had beta firmware. It's   certainly better than any mirrorless before the most recent generation (which I'd define as A7 III/A7RIII, XT-2/XH-1, E-M1 mk II and GH5). It's a 5.5 fps camera (significantly more if you're willing to fix exposure at the first frame, and some sources say black out the finder as well - I didn't try it). That sounds slow, but to put it in perspective:

The legendary Nikon F3HP, beloved of press and sports photographers for years, was also a 5.5 fps camera, if you used its dedicated MD-4 motor drive and the custom rechargeable battery pack for maximum speed. That was the speed demon of its day, not so very long ago.

To match or exceed the Z7's image quality in the film era, you'd be using a single shot camera - your second image was on the other side of the 4x5 film holder! The best digital sensors below medium format (and this is perhaps the best of those) fall somewhere between the best of MF film and 4x5 film, while digital medium format can exceed 4x5 quality.

All in all, I liked it enough that my name's on the list. I'll be shooting it alongside my Fuji system...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 07, 2018, 02:39:46 am
All in all, I liked it enough that my name's on the list. I'll be shooting it alongside my Fuji system...

Congratulations on your new camera! Hopefully you won't have to wait too long to receive it. :)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: davidgp on September 07, 2018, 03:01:41 am
You are correct.

Though to be sure, I wouldn’t expect it to be a problem for Zeiss to make a version of the Loxias for either mount. An adapter, though, that’s a different story. It’s not likely to be possible to adapt Sony or Nikon Z lenses to the canon with its longer flange/focal distance.

Yes, I will be surprised if Zeiss didn’t adapt their Loxia line to either Nikon Z or Canon R.


http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on September 07, 2018, 07:50:23 am
I had a chance to handle a Z7 today (in a retailer, no card in it - but I could examine images on the camera screen). It's extremely well built, right in the same size range with other SLR-style mirrorless bodies (actually slightly smaller than some). I had my own X-H1 next to it and the Nikon is (very slightly) the smaller of the two. Controls are beautifully placed - the AF-area joystick in particular is right where I would want it. IBIS works - I was getting sharp shots at 1/20 second at 70mm.

The body feels great in hand - it's small and light, but every inch a modern Nikon. It has the controls of every high-end Nikon going back to when Guigiaro designed the F5. Sonys have always felt a bit too computer-ish to me - they have wonderful features, but nobody has really given any thought to how they are used as a camera (they get a little better with each generation). Canon and Nikon both have very nice control schemes, and Fuji's classic controls also make a lot of sense. The Z7 definitely speaks Nikonese, so Canon shooters will have to get used to it (from the looks of it, the EOS-R may feel quite Canonish, although without the traditional low-mounted wheel).

The viewfinder is impressive - I didn't think it's any better than an X-H1, but it's certainly no worse either, and the X-H1 has one of the newest and best EVFs on the market. They have a very impressive multi-axis level that actually shows the plane the camera is sitting in (it looks like an aircraft artificial horizon), making leveling exceptionally easy. I don't wear glasses, but the eyepoint is very good from what I could tell.

From what little I could tell, the 24-70 is a very sharp lens - the number of targets in a camera store is limited, so I suspect the pic that Imaging Resource posted is a better guide than anything I got - that's really quite impressive. I did photograph a flower arrangement in the store (working distance ~2 feet), and got pixel-level sharpness on the camera monitor.  The MTF charts are actually better than the latest Nikkor 24-70 f2.8 E ED VR, which is slightly over twice the weight. The first sample images we are seeing tend to indicate that those MTF charts may be reasonably accurate!

The build quality on the 24-70 is good, although it is plastickier than really high-end lenses.  Nikon showed a diagram of the sealing and it is excellent (made better by the fact that there are no switches on the lens). The sealing is a bunch of thick-looking ring seals around the zoom ring, the control (focus by wire - but definable to aperture or exposure compensation as well) ring and both ends of the barrel. There is quite a bit of plastic on the lens, although it has a metal barrel. It feels far better than any kit lens (except the Fujinon 18-55mm f2.8-4, which really stretches the definition of a kit lens), and somewhat better than something like a Nikkor 24-120mm f4. This is a very compact and relatively lightweight lens, especially given its capabilities. They had two different examples on display, one of which had a stiffer zoom ring than the other.

Overall, my impression was wow, that's a 45 MP camera in a tiny package. If you value portability and image quality in a rugged package, it's the state of the art. Of course, it's not for everyone - I didn't think it focused quite as snappily as an XH-1,although settings may not have been optimal, and it had beta firmware. It's   certainly better than any mirrorless before the most recent generation (which I'd define as A7 III/A7RIII, XT-2/XH-1, E-M1 mk II and GH5). It's a 5.5 fps camera (significantly more if you're willing to fix exposure at the first frame, and some sources say black out the finder as well - I didn't try it). That sounds slow, but to put it in perspective:

The legendary Nikon F3HP, beloved of press and sports photographers for years, was also a 5.5 fps camera, if you used its dedicated MD-4 motor drive and the custom rechargeable battery pack for maximum speed. That was the speed demon of its day, not so very long ago.

To match or exceed the Z7's image quality in the film era, you'd be using a single shot camera - your second image was on the other side of the 4x5 film holder! The best digital sensors below medium format (and this is perhaps the best of those) fall somewhere between the best of MF film and 4x5 film, while digital medium format can exceed 4x5 quality.

All in all, I liked it enough that my name's on the list. I'll be shooting it alongside my Fuji system...

The focus not being as good as the best in class is less than ideal. Experience with Fuji shows that firmware updates improve it but doesn't dramatically make it better. For my uses as a landscape camera this would be likely good enough, particularly if the manual focus is good, after all I can easily work with a X-E1.
I suspect many others would not be happy though.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on September 07, 2018, 10:05:20 am
This is MUCH better than an XE-1. From a brief test in a dark camera store with beta firmware and unknown settings, a challenging test for anything except a D5 or an EOS-1Dx mkII, it's at least as good as an X-T1, an A7rII, or an E-M1. What it lags is the very latest generation of X-H1, E-M1 mk II and probably the A7 mk III series (I've never actually handled a mk III, and didn't have the presence of mind to ask for one yesterday).

I own Fuji gear, and can confidently place the newcomer between the X-T1 and the X-H1 (the reason I don't mention the X-T2 is that I'm not quite sure - I'd probably give the edge to the X-T2, but it's pretty close). A friend has an E-M1 mk II, and that's clearly better.

The Z7 has several clear advantages to its AF - some in the body, others in the lens. One is that the phase detect coverage is extraordinarily wide - far wider than any other camera I have used. It's not quite as wide as the published specs for the EOS-R or the X-T3, but all three of the newcomers have very wide PDAF coverage we haven't seen before. The second is that the AF is really silent (on the 24-70). Think purpose-built video lens silent...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 07, 2018, 10:07:35 am
Dan,

Did you also test the AF with the 35mm f1.8 wide open?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on September 07, 2018, 12:20:09 pm
Just had the opportunity to play with a Z7 in a shop (Park Cameras in London in case anyone is passing). Not a detailed test but it feels really nice in the hand and everything worked as far as it was possible to judge in a few minutes.

The question now is - do I trade in my D850, my Oly m43 system, both, or neither?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: faberryman on September 07, 2018, 01:08:45 pm
The question now is - do I trade in my D850, my Oly m43 system, both, or neither?
Why change? Will the Z7 make you a better photographer?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: KLaban on September 07, 2018, 01:34:48 pm

The question now is - do I trade in my D850, my Oly m43 system, both, or neither?

You've got problems. I'm unsure if I should go with the chicken souvlaki accompanied by gigantes or the moussaka with a side of Greek salad followed by baklava.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on September 07, 2018, 02:00:04 pm
The only cameras I was able to handle had the 24-70 (two examples, one stiffer than the other). It was a launch event, with probably 30 people passing three or four cameras around. There were probably single examples of the two primes, but I didn't get to handle them - I saw the zoom and a couple of adapted lenses (I wasn't really focused on the primes, because the zoom will be my choice for extended hikes).

Nikon gave an interesting 90-minute presentation, ranging from the durability and sealing of the body to the optical engineering behind the mount, then they did a hands-on. The presentation was very engineering-focused, interesting to the group of diehards who gave up a couple of hours in the middle of the day to be there, but I see what people mean about Nikon marketing - incredibly sincere engineers talking about the optical advantages of wide, shallow mounts are not going to pull in the social media generation.

If the Nikon engineers are right (and what they are saying makes sense), Sony has a huge disadvantage to contend with compared to both Nikon and Canon - their very narrow mount restricts lens design. The Nikon F-mount has the same problem, but film didn't need parallel light rays in the way that digital sensors do, so the F-mount made sense in 1959. At least according to Nikon, Sony made a real mistake trying to cram a FF sensor into an APS-C mount, especially when they didn't have a significant lens line (at the time) to preserve. Notably, Fuji didn't do that - an X-mount will fit a FF sensor as tightly as an E-mount will, but Fuji went with a new mount and a beyond-FF (I won't quite call 33x44 medium format) sensor for the GFX.

From MTF charts and initial sample images, the Nikkor 24-70 is a much better lens than the comparably-sized Sony "Zeiss" 24-70 f4, much closer in performance to the G-Master, which is close to twice the size and weight. Nikon is claiming (and showing MTF charts, for whatever they're worth) that the 24-70 actually (slightly) outperforms the newest version of their own 24-70 f2.8 used at f4. If so, that's a significant optical advantage for something they did - Nikon claims the mount is a big part of it, and I have no reason to dispute them. If so, Canon has a similar advantage...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on September 07, 2018, 02:25:01 pm
Why change? Will the Z7 make you a better photographer?

Obviously not. But it may make me a photographer who is able to carry his best camera to a location where he can get the shots he wants.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on September 07, 2018, 02:26:48 pm
You've got problems. I'm unsure if I should go with the chicken souvlaki accompanied by gigantes or the moussaka with a side of Greek salad followed by baklava.

I'm not fond of aubergine and I do like gigantes so that's an easy one for me.

Kali orexi!!
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 07, 2018, 02:30:51 pm
... able to carry his ... camera...

A gym membership would be cheaper... plus having other health benefits ;)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on September 07, 2018, 02:39:18 pm
A gym membership would be cheaper... plus having other health benefits ;)

:-)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on September 07, 2018, 02:48:20 pm
A gym membership would be cheaper... plus having other health benefits ;)
Especially if you are a senior citizen.  The YMCA right up the street from us is $42/month per person membership.  Three pools, a walking track, exercise and fitness rooms; cannot beat the price.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on September 07, 2018, 02:51:41 pm
Especially if you are a senior citizen.  The YMCA right up the street from us is $42/month per person membership.  Three pools, a walking track, exercise and fitness rooms; cannot beat the price.

My local gym is quite a bit more. And my back surgery was even more expensive :-(
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 07, 2018, 03:22:14 pm
Joking aside, have you noticed the inherent paradox of the new generation of mirrorless (Nikon, Canon)? They are supposed to be more compact, and they are, and yet, they come with ginormous lenses. Not much change in total.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: chez on September 07, 2018, 03:22:28 pm
The only cameras I was able to handle had the 24-70 (two examples, one stiffer than the other). It was a launch event, with probably 30 people passing three or four cameras around. There were probably single examples of the two primes, but I didn't get to handle them - I saw the zoom and a couple of adapted lenses (I wasn't really focused on the primes, because the zoom will be my choice for extended hikes).

Nikon gave an interesting 90-minute presentation, ranging from the durability and sealing of the body to the optical engineering behind the mount, then they did a hands-on. The presentation was very engineering-focused, interesting to the group of diehards who gave up a couple of hours in the middle of the day to be there, but I see what people mean about Nikon marketing - incredibly sincere engineers talking about the optical advantages of wide, shallow mounts are not going to pull in the social media generation.

If the Nikon engineers are right (and what they are saying makes sense), Sony has a huge disadvantage to contend with compared to both Nikon and Canon - their very narrow mount restricts lens design. The Nikon F-mount has the same problem, but film didn't need parallel light rays in the way that digital sensors do, so the F-mount made sense in 1959. At least according to Nikon, Sony made a real mistake trying to cram a FF sensor into an APS-C mount, especially when they didn't have a significant lens line (at the time) to preserve. Notably, Fuji didn't do that - an X-mount will fit a FF sensor as tightly as an E-mount will, but Fuji went with a new mount and a beyond-FF (I won't quite call 33x44 medium format) sensor for the GFX.

From MTF charts and initial sample images, the Nikkor 24-70 is a much better lens than the comparably-sized Sony "Zeiss" 24-70 f4, much closer in performance to the G-Master, which is close to twice the size and weight. Nikon is claiming (and showing MTF charts, for whatever they're worth) that the 24-70 actually (slightly) outperforms the newest version of their own 24-70 f2.8 used at f4. If so, that's a significant optical advantage for something they did - Nikon claims the mount is a big part of it, and I have no reason to dispute them. If so, Canon has a similar advantage...

I don't think the poor performance of the Sony 24-70 f4 has anything to do with the mount...but just a bad optical design. Both the Sony 24-105 and the 12-24 are stellar lenses by anyone's standards...and the mount is the same.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Telecaster on September 07, 2018, 03:26:37 pm
http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2018/09/best-comment-ever.html

-Dave-
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: John Camp on September 07, 2018, 03:55:23 pm
Wish I could handle one. I'm satisfied that I would be happy with the body and sensor (I've been a Nikon guy most of my life) but the other question is about the lenses. The good thing about m4/3 is that the lens sizes fit the body sizes...all small and light. I've seen some reports that the Z lenses are as large as the F lenses, but Dan's post makes it sound like they're actually fairly compact. Does compact mean smaller than F lenses of the same maximum aperture? Or are they the same as F lenses, but smaller than the most common F lenses because they're f4 rather than 2.8?

I'm not worried about the f4 per se -- the high ISO ratings more than make up for it, for me. Nor am I worried about not having shallow depth of field available -- I've got enough F lenses to cover that on a case-by-case basis. I just don't want a system that's essentially as heavy and awkward as my D800 system, except for the small body. I would like an excellent compact f4 12-24, 24-70 and 70-200 as a travel bag, with a fast prime 85 or 105 for portraits. Is that too much to ask?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 07, 2018, 04:47:52 pm
Joking aside, have you noticed the inherent paradox of the new generation of mirrorless (Nikon, Canon)? They are supposed to be more compact, and they are, and yet, they come with ginormous lenses. Not much change in total.


That’s exactly what Nikon is doing different from Canon and Sony. Their f1.8 line (35, 50,...) is targeting top performance while being compact.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on September 07, 2018, 05:10:28 pm
Joking aside, have you noticed the inherent paradox of the new generation of mirrorless (Nikon, Canon)? They are supposed to be more compact, and they are, and yet, they come with ginormous lenses. Not much change in total.

Canon is explaining its mirrorless strategy quite better than Nikon, but you need to read a bit. Mirrorless doesn't necessarily mean compact, it means free of constraints in optical design. So we'll see both compact lenses and bulky lenses.

(http://www.guillermoluijk.com/misc/canonr.png)

The 28-70 f/2 performs at f/2 better than the Canon 24-70 II f/2,8 at f/2,8, and that's a whole stop faster. Priority was not compactness in that lens and Canon lets us know.

Regards
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on September 07, 2018, 05:50:03 pm
Joking aside, have you noticed the inherent paradox of the new generation of mirrorless (Nikon, Canon)? They are supposed to be more compact, and they are, and yet, they come with ginormous lenses. Not much change in total.
The Nikon 24-70 f4 zoom which would be of interest to me is not much bigger than the 24-85 f3.5-4.5 zoom that use for travel these days.  Marginally longer on only about 30g heavier.  The Z camera body is of course a lot lighter than by D810.  I didn't look up the specs of the primes.  I seldom need anything below f4 for my use and of course the faster lenses are also a lot bigger and heavier.  Every thing is a question of choice.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: hubell on September 07, 2018, 05:54:40 pm
Canon is explaining its mirrorless strategy quite better than Nikon, but you need to read a bit. Mirrorless doesn't necessarily mean compact, it means free of constraints in optical design. So we'll see both compact lenses and bulky lenses.

(http://www.guillermoluijk.com/misc/canonr.png)

The 28-70 f/2 performs at f/2 better than the Canon 24-70 II f/2,8 at f/2,8, and that's a whole stop faster. Priority was not compactness in that lens and Canon lets us know.

Regards

Yup. Big, heavy, expensive lenses that have the best optical performance...or smaller, lighter lenses that don't perform as well but are, well, cheaper. For a landscape shooter, that's a terrible strategy. But it is the same old Canon marketing strategy. I am holding out hope for Nikon's S line of lenses.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on September 07, 2018, 06:04:02 pm
Wish I could handle one. I'm satisfied that I would be happy with the body and sensor (I've been a Nikon guy most of my life) but the other question is about the lenses. The good thing about m4/3 is that the lens sizes fit the body sizes...all small and light. I've seen some reports that the Z lenses are as large as the F lenses, but Dan's post makes it sound like they're actually fairly compact. Does compact mean smaller than F lenses of the same maximum aperture? Or are they the same as F lenses, but smaller than the most common F lenses because they're f4 rather than 2.8?

I'm not worried about the f4 per se -- the high ISO ratings more than make up for it, for me. Nor am I worried about not having shallow depth of field available -- I've got enough F lenses to cover that on a case-by-case basis. I just don't want a system that's essentially as heavy and awkward as my D800 system, except for the small body. I would like an excellent compact f4 12-24, 24-70 and 70-200 as a travel bag, with a fast prime 85 or 105 for portraits. Is that too much to ask?
I too wish I could handle one but that would mean a trip to New York as the only camera stores here in DC don't sell top line gear.  Regarding the lens weight and size, you can get the technical specifications from the Nikon site and compare them to what the 'standard' lenses are.  Here is what they show for the 'Z' 24-70 zoom  77.5 x 88.5mm (diameter x length), 500g.  The comparison is a bit off because the comparable zoom is the f2.8:  83 x 133mm, 900g.    For the 'Z' 35:  73 x 86mm; 360g and the 'standard' f1.8G ED:  72 x 71; 305g so the 'Z' lens is a little bigger.  It remains to be seen what the rest of the 'Z' lens line comes in at.  Still the camera body weight will be much less than a comparable D8xx that a lot of us already use. 
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on September 07, 2018, 06:45:12 pm
Nikon doesn't make a 24-70 f4 DSLR lens, but here are some comparisons (looked these up at B+H)

Comparable size and weight:
Nikkor 24-85 f3.5-4.5 (new)
Nikkor 24-85 f2.8-4 (old AF-D)
Sony "Zeiss" 24-70 f4

100-200 grams heavier
Canon 24-70mm f4
Canon 24-105mm f4 (R mount)
Sony FE 24-105mm f4
Fuji 16-55 f2.8 (APS-C)
Nikkor 24-120 mm f4 (210 gram difference)

Much heavier
Canon 24-105mm f4 (EF mount SLR lens)
Sigma ART 24-105mm f4
Nikkor 24-70mm f2.8 (and all other 24-70mm f2.8 lenses) - these cluster around 1000 grams, exactly twice the weight of the Nikkor 24-70.

Nikon does make a 50mm f1.8 SLR lens, and the mirrorless lens is much heavier (twice the weight and twice the price of the diminutive DSLR lens).
The mirrorless lens is somewhat heavier than the Nikkor 50mm f1.4 for DSLRs, and a little heavier than the Zeiss Planar f2.0.
Note that both Nikkor 50mm SLR lenses and the Planar are probably classic double-Gauss designs (the slower Nikkor and the Zeiss are 7 elements in 6 groups, while the Nikkor f1.4 is 8 elements in 7 groups). These film-era classics don't necessarily perform as well as newer designs on high-res digital sensors.

It is, however, much lighter than the high-performance 50mm lenses Nikon would like to complete with.
It's about 2/3 the weight of the Zeiss Milvius 50mm, half the weight of the Sigma ART, and 2/5 the weight of the Zeiss Otus, the last two of which are a stop faster.
I can't find a weight on the forthcoming Tokina Opera, which looks like it's in the size range of the Sigma ART?.
These higher-performance lenses are significantly more complex than an old double-Gauss lens, as is the Nikkor Z. The ART is 13 elements in 8 groups, the Nikkor Z is 12 elements in 9 groups, and the Otus is 12 elements in 10 groups. I suspect Nikon's next updates to their SLR 50mm lenses will be much heavier than their predecessors as they adopt more complex, highly corrected optical formulas.


The 35mm is much heavier than some diminutive film-era 35mm lenses like the old Nikkor AF-D and the Yongnou, comparable in weight (less than 100 g difference) with newer, high-performance 35mm lenses with modest maximum apertures like the current AF-G Nikkor and the Tamron SP, and significantly lighter than fast, modern designs like the latest Nikkor 35mm f1.4, the Sigma ART and the Zeiss Milvius...


Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BJL on September 07, 2018, 08:03:20 pm
@hubell, are Canon’s smaller lighter R lenses of lower optical and build quality, or just of smaller maximum apertures with good performance within that constraint? The latter is a viable “third way” in lens design for some users and use cases with today’s very high sensitivity sensors, and Nikon seems to be pursuing it with most of its “S” lenses, but I have not heard so much about the quality of new Canon lenses like the new 24-105/4 R.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Ray on September 08, 2018, 12:26:15 am
Throughout all the years I've been involved in photography, the major issues for me regarding choice of equipment have been cost, image quality, and weight.

Making a decision to purchase a new camera has largely been a balancing act involving these three variables. In other words, is the increase in image quality justified by the increase in price and the increase in weight, or, is the reduction of image quality justified by the lower price and/or the lower weight?

By image quality, I mean technical image quality, which must also involve the quality and weight of available lenses, accuracy of autofocus, and so on.

A few years ago, whilst taking photos on a beach in Thailand, I foolishly slipped when trying to jump over a stream flowing into the sea, and my Nikon D800E got drowned. It was the only camera I was carrying on that trip, so in order to continue taking photos I went to the local camera shop, hoping to buy the newly released Nikon D7200.

Unfortunately, the shop didn't have one in stock so I settled for a D5300 with Nikkor DX 18-140/F3.5-5.6 walk-around zoom. In Full-Frame terms the lens is equivalent to a 27-210mm zoom. Ever since, I've been torn between the trade-off of image quality, and the weight benefits of the system, including the convenience of the wide ranging zoom which frees me from the hassle of frequently changing lenses and/or carrying additional lenses.

After returning to Australia I've often considered upgrading my D5300 to the D7200, but cannot justify spending $1,000 for the marginal improvement in image quality. Both cameras have a 24 mp sensor without AA filter. However, if Nikon were to produce a significantly improved 18-140 DX lens, sharp from edge to edge, and sharp at maximum zoom, with no increase in weight, I'd willingly pay $1,000.

Perhaps when Nikon eventually produces a mirrorless DX format, they will also offer such a lens.
The D5300 with attached 18-140 zoom weighs a mere 1.1kg. It's so light I can hardly feel any burden at all when the camera is slung around my neck. I'm surprised that the new Nikon Z7, with 24-70/F4 zoom attached weighs no more. That makes it a very attractive option for me.

The downside is that a 70mm shot with the Z7, cropped to the same angle of view as the 140mm lens on the D5300, is unlikely to match the image quality of the DX 140mm lens. If my maths is correct, one would be comparing 24mp with 5mp.

Nevertheless, since I already own an AF-S Nikon 80-400, the Z7 with the 24-70/F4 will give me a range from 24mm to 600mm (including its DX mode), so that should suit my purposes, provided the adapter is fully functional.

By the way, I've noticed much criticism on the forums regarding Nikon's decision to include just one card slot in the Z7. I can understand that those who have experienced a card failure and have lost images as a result, could be very concerned about this issue. However, if it is true that the new XQD cards are more reliable, those concerns should be allayed.

When I ruined my D800E by completely submerging it in salty water, about 3 years ago, the images recorded on the 128GB 'SanDisk Extreme' card I was using, were intact. Not only that, I've continued to use the card with my current Nikon D810, and 3 years later I've experienced no problems.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Bernard ODonovan on September 08, 2018, 05:39:07 am
This guy sums up card issues and tips beautifully. He appears to be responding to V loggers. One had made inappropriate comments about how social media could put single card slot photographers out of business despite that same photographer previously using single card slot cameras in the same line of business. I am sure he would have seen that vid as he posted a link to his video on that channel after as the subject was raised again...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bC-ncGkAbrY
"Single Card Slot Workflow & Tips"

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: KLaban on September 08, 2018, 07:55:53 am
I'm not fond of aubergine and I do like gigantes so that's an easy one for me.

Kali orexi!!

Efharisto poli.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: KLaban on September 08, 2018, 08:01:29 am
http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2018/09/best-comment-ever.html

-Dave-

Brilliant.

Efharisto poli!
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: kers on September 08, 2018, 08:54:09 am
On nikon rumours some remarks from Marsel van Oosten - he made some of the advertising photos with the Z7.

https://nikonrumors.com/
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Ray on September 08, 2018, 10:50:03 am
On nikon rumours some remarks from Marsel van Oosten - he made some of the advertising photos with the Z7.

https://nikonrumors.com/

Excellent article, but I'm a bit confused about the performance of F-mount lenses when used with the FTZ-adapter. Marsel shows an image taken with the 14-24/F2.8 and writes, "The image above is probably one of the best examples of what this camera is capable of: edge to edge sharpness with tons of detail."

He then later writes, under the heading 'Image Quality', "From my limited experience with this camera and the large variety of lenses I have used, I can say that the image quality is superb. All my F-mount lenses performed just as good as on my DSLRs, and some of them got VR as a bonus via the FTZ-adapter (AF-S 14-24/2.8 VR!)."

I understand that the new S-lenses designed for the Z7 camera have the advantage of better resolution at the edges and corners because of the wider mount, but does this also apply to F-mount lenses when used with an adapter?

The fact that Marsel has used an F-mount 14-24mm zoom to demonstrate the 'edge to edge sharpness with tons of detail', implies that F-mount lenses also benefit from additional edge sharpness. However, if that's the case, why write, "All my F-mount lenses performed just as good as on my DSLRs". Was that an oversight? If the images are sharper at the edges, then surely those F-mount lenses will perform better than they do on a DSLR.
Title: Nikon’s new mirrorless system ... with "VR" for all lenses
Post by: BJL on September 08, 2018, 11:35:10 am
Excellent article, but I'm a bit confused about the performance of F-mount lenses when used with the FTZ-adapter. Marsel shows an image taken with the 14-24/F2.8 and writes, "The image above is probably one of the best examples of what this camera is capable of: edge to edge sharpness with tons of detail."

Maybe he is referring to having IBIS available with that lens: the exposure time for that photo is 1 second, and it was taken "perched on top of one of those nasty limestone needles, pointing my 14-24 straight down into the abyss", so probably hand-held. But if so, he does not make the point very clearly.

That is indeed one of the things I love about IBIS; it has let me take low-light, widish shots at indoor locations where neither tripods nor flash are allowed (and I try to avoid those two anyway) and the sort of lenses used for that often lack in-lens IS, for perceived lack of need. For example, none of Canon's 24-70/2.7 EF, 16-35/2.8 or the new 28-70/2 R have IS; only slower and/or longer EF and R lenses do.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system ... with "VR" for all lenses
Post by: Ray on September 08, 2018, 12:44:51 pm
Maybe he is referring to having IBIS available with that lens: the exposure time for that photo is 1 second, and it was taken "perched on top of one of those nasty limestone needles, pointing my 14-24 straight down into the abyss", so probably hand-held. But if so, he does not make the point very clearly.

That is indeed one of the things I love about IBIS; it has let me take low-light, widish shots at indoor locations where neither tripods nor flash are allowed (and I try to avoid those two anyway) and the sort of lenses used for that often lack in-lens IS, for perceived lack of need. For example, none of Canon's 24-70/2.7 EF, 16-35/2.8 or the new 28-70/2 R have IS; only slower and/or longer EF and R lenses do.

Yes. You have a point. If the shot was hand-held at 1 sec exposure and is considered to be the best example of edge to edge sharpness and detail, then that's a remarkable demonstration of the effectiveness of IBIS.

I own a Nikkor 14-24/F2.8, and I would consider the Z7 to be a significant advantage if it allowed me to use that lens at 1 sec exposure, hand-held, and get a sharp image. With that lens I usually use a minimum shutter speed of 2x1/focal length, ie. 1/30th sec at 14mm, and 1/50th at 24mm

I wonder how much that adapter weighs.  ;)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: alan_b on September 08, 2018, 12:54:48 pm
I understand that the new S-lenses designed for the Z7 camera have the advantage of better resolution at the edges and corners because of the wider mount, but does this also apply to F-mount lenses when used with an adapter?

The adapter would have no impact on image sharpness, assuming correct dimensioning.

I can speculate that changes in microlens design could show better results than earlier DSLRs, but have seen no information about this one way or another.

Differences with in-camera processing could show better results in JPEGs, and I can imagine that producing some initial wow-factor.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BJL on September 08, 2018, 02:16:43 pm
@Ray, the FTZ weighs 135g, so Z7+FTZ weighs 810g; c. f. 1005g for the D850 and 980g for the D810.

I see anticipate Nikon and Canon having success with transitional use of SLR lenses on their EVF bodies, but maybe more so for Nikon until Canon adds “all of the above” to its stabilisation options.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: D Fuller on September 08, 2018, 03:53:34 pm
@Ray, the FTZ weighs 135g, so Z7+FTZ weighs 810g; c. f. 1005g for the D850 and 980g for the D810.

I see Nikon and Canon having success with transitional use of SLR lenses on their EVF bodies, but maybe more so for Nikon until Canon adds “all of the above” to its stabilisation options.

For those of us who own (and favor) F-mount lenses, another plus in the Z-Nikon column is the lack of smart adapters for emoting or other systems. It seems that the fact that Nikon’s mount specs are not open has made it very difficult to get the electronics right, so having such an effective adapter available a big thing in the Nikon world.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Telecaster on September 08, 2018, 03:56:02 pm
Brilliant.

Efharisto poli!

בבקשה

-Dave-
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Ray on September 09, 2018, 12:17:47 am
@Ray, the FTZ weighs 135g, so Z7+FTZ weighs 810g; c. f. 1005g for the D850 and 980g for the D810.

I see anticipate Nikon and Canon having success with transitional use of SLR lenses on their EVF bodies, but maybe more so for Nikon until Canon adds “all of the above” to its stabilisation options.

BJL,
Thanks for the weight info. It's a bit disappointing that the weight reduction of the Z7 with adapter is only 170 gms, compared with my D810. However, the greater pixel count of the Z7, plus the benefits of IBIS, the lower requirement, or perhaps no requirement, for AF fine tuning, and the potential for the design of better quality and lighter lenses, is a game changer.

According to the road map, in 2019 there will be a 14-30/F4 lens, which should be much lighter than the current 14-24/F2.8, and probably sharper, certainly towards the edges. I'll be very willing to sacrifice that additional stop at the wide end for the benefits of a longer focal length and lighter weight, even if the image quality is no better than my current 14-24. But that's unlikely to be the case. My current 14-24 does have noticeable softness in the corners and close to the edges, so I would expect an improvement with the new S lens.

I'm sure glad I resisted upgrading to a D850. If I had done that, I would be unable to justify the additional cost of the game-changing Z7, but I'm not sure if I should place my order now, or wait until more thorough reviews are available after the camera has been released.  ;)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: tintoreto on September 09, 2018, 02:41:46 pm
I played yesterday with the Z7 at a local dealer and Nikon stuff. Well not everything worked fine like the green focus display, it should be some kind of software. Suprising for me is that there is only one qxd-slot and no sd-card solt or a second slot. I was able to make some photos but if you have no pc you can not really see if the new lens is better than the old one's. There was also an adapter for the old lenses. The old lens make still a better impression than the new one. There was an new 24-70 lens. The new lens feels cheap.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: SrMi on September 10, 2018, 12:40:55 am
BJL,
Thanks for the weight info. It's a bit disappointing that the weight reduction of the Z7 with adapter is only 170 gms, compared with my D810. However, the greater pixel count of the Z7, plus the benefits of IBIS, the lower requirement, or perhaps no requirement, for AF fine tuning, and the potential for the design of better quality and lighter lenses, is a game changer.

According to the road map, in 2019 there will be a 14-30/F4 lens, which should be much lighter than the current 14-24/F2.8, and probably sharper, certainly towards the edges. I'll be very willing to sacrifice that additional stop at the wide end for the benefits of a longer focal length and lighter weight, even if the image quality is no better than my current 14-24. But that's unlikely to be the case. My current 14-24 does have noticeable softness in the corners and close to the edges, so I would expect an improvement with the new S lens.

I'm sure glad I resisted upgrading to a D850. If I had done that, I would be unable to justify the additional cost of the game-changing Z7, but I'm not sure if I should place my order now, or wait until more thorough reviews are available after the camera has been released.  ;)

The weight savings are anyway mostly in the lenses, not in the body (see m43 and APS-C formats).
If you compare Z7 with 24-70 f4, vs Nikon D850 with 24-70 f2.8 (the lenses should be of comparable high quality), the weight difference is significant. I also expect the 14-30/F4 to be lighter but do not expect the announced 70-200/2.8 to be much lighter than the F-mount one.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on September 10, 2018, 06:38:56 am
The weight savings are anyway mostly in the lenses, not in the body (see m43 and APS-C formats).
If you compare Z7 with 24-70 f4, vs Nikon D850 with 24-70 f2.8 (the lenses should be of comparable high quality), the weight difference is significant. I also expect the 14-30/F4 to be lighter but do not expect the announced 70-200/2.8 to be much lighter than the F-mount one.

Unfortunately for larger aperture zooms or telephoto the difference is not that big. Hopefully the new 24-70 F4S is really a better lens than the 24-120 F4 which is the lens with which it should be compared with, I think only 200g heavier but with a much longer range.

And the body should be compared with the D750, I think it's closer in capability. Yes the sensor is not high resolution but that was Nikon's choice, they could have for a D850 sensor in there.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: RobSaecker on September 10, 2018, 12:02:49 pm
And the body should be compared with the D750, I think it's closer in capability. Yes the sensor is not high resolution but that was Nikon's choice, they could have for a D850 sensor in there.

That would be the Z6, not the Z7.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on September 10, 2018, 09:19:57 pm
That would be the Z6, not the Z7.

Probably true but I was talking about the weight difference which stays the same.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on September 12, 2018, 04:59:46 am
Probably true but I was talking about the weight difference which stays the same.
Eh?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on September 12, 2018, 01:30:09 pm
Eh?

I tend to be brief when typing from a phone.

I think Z7 is closer to a D750 than a D850 in what it can do, regardless of the Nikon marketing.
Either way, the fact that the Nikon D750 doesn't have a 45MP sensor is only a business decision and Nikon could have most of the capability of D850 in a D750 body size, or most of the Z7.
This being said when you talk about the weight losses that are be made by going mirrorless one can start from the D750 body weight as a point of reference and not artificially make it look better by starting at the D850 size.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 12, 2018, 02:18:04 pm
Joking aside, have you noticed the inherent paradox of the new generation of mirrorless (Nikon, Canon)? They are supposed to be more compact, and they are, and yet, they come with ginormous lenses. Not much change in total.

I think I did not make myself clear with this remark.

It is not about immediately pointing out lenses that are available for the new systems and are compact. It was about the touted inherent advantage of mirrorless - having large lens mounts that, in turn, enable really fast lenses, which, in turn, are then ginormous.

If that is the inherent advantage, yes you can have the system without buying those fast lenses, but how are you going to resist the siren call of what the system is best at? It is like buying a Ferrari and saying: "Nah, I am just going to drive it at 35mph to the nearest supermarket." You surely can, but that is not what Ferraris are designed for.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: KLaban on September 12, 2018, 02:31:57 pm
I think I did not make myself clear with this remark.

It is not about immediately pointing out lenses that are available for the new systems and are compact. It was about the touted inherent advantage of mirrorless - having a large lens mounts that, in turn, enable really fast lenses, which, in turn, are then ginormous.

If that is the inherent advantage, yes you can have the system without buying those fast lenses, but how are you going to resist the siren call of what the system is best at? It is like buying a Ferrari and saying: "Nah, I am just going to drive it at 35mph to the nearest supermarket." You surely can, but that is not what Ferraris are designed for.

This is a large part of the reason I use Leica M. Superb lenses that fit in the palm of my hand and compact but solid bodies.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: John Camp on September 12, 2018, 02:55:43 pm
I think I did not make myself clear with this remark.

It is not about immediately pointing out lenses that are available for the new systems and are compact. It was about the touted inherent advantage of mirrorless - having large lens mounts that, in turn, enable really fast lenses, which, in turn, are then ginormous.

If that is the inherent advantage, yes you can have the system without buying those fast lenses, but how are you going to resist the siren call of what the system is best at? It is like buying a Ferrari and saying: "Nah, I am just going to drive it at 35mph to the nearest supermarket." You surely can, but that is not what Ferraris are designed for.

I don't think the larger mounts are basically about faster lenses, but rather are more about flexibility. Given the improvements in ISO ranges, which still maintain the quality (or better) of low ISO in previous generations of cameras, I think fast lenses are becoming less relevant for anything but specialized forms of photography -- and you usually don't buy long zooms for specialized photography. (Or where you do -- for all the varieties of news photography, for example, then ultimate quality isn't really necessary, because the typical reproduction modes can't utilize it all.) Essentially (it seems to me) where you want fast lenses is where you want to isolate the focus point from the fore- and background, and that usually would mean a prime lens, which you could get as fast as you wish, down to f0.95. From my point of view, the siren call of fast lenses is easy to resist because I prioritize size, weight and ergonomics over lens speed. It's more a case of "Jeez, I wish they could make an f2.8 or f1.8 the size of an f4, but since they apparently can't, I'll take the f4."
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 12, 2018, 04:16:09 pm
I tend to be brief when typing from a phone.

I think Z7 is closer to a D750 than a D850 in what it can do, regardless of the Nikon marketing.
Either way, the fact that the Nikon D750 doesn't have a 45MP sensor is only a business decision and Nikon could have most of the capability of D850 in a D750 body size, or most of the Z7.
This being said when you talk about the weight losses that are be made by going mirrorless one can start from the D750 body weight as a point of reference and not artificially make it look better by starting at the D850 size.

Out of curiosity, what makes you say that the capabilities of the Z7 are closer to that of a D750?

Don’t get we wrong, I used to love me D750, but the key differences with the D850 were:
- sensor
- viewfinder
- AF
- framerate
- XQD vs SD
- level of weatherproofing
- feel of the body/construction

On most accounts the Z7 seems to have gone for the D850 spec don’t you think?

Or are you saying that the reports about AF perfo of the Z7 makes you anticipate that it will perform AFwise similarly to the D750?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on September 12, 2018, 04:36:29 pm
Nikon claims (I'm not an optical engineer, so I can't evaluate their claim) that the big mount helps them with optical performance on their modest-speed lenses. While it is a computed MTF chart, not a measured result, the chart Nikon is showing for the 50mm f1.8 is very similar to the 55mm Zeiss Otus (yes, the Otus is 2/3 of a stop faster, but it's also 6 times the price and 3 times the weight). You have to extrapolate because the Otus is shown at 10,20 and 40 lp/mm, while the Nikon is shown at 10 and 30 (the 30 line for the Nikon fits between the 20 and 40 lines for the Otus, right as you'd expect for similar lenses. If it really shoots like an Otus, most of us are going to forgive it for being f1.8.

Canon's 50mm f1.2 for the new mount is also in a different (and better) class from any Canon 50mm  for the EF mount. It's half a stop faster than the Otus, and its chart isn't quite as good. What would happen if it were tested at f1.4? Might it be in Otus territory?

Meanwhile, and again with the caveat of computed MTF, the 24-70 f4 Z is showing MTF charts never seen before for a zoom. It's better than what LensRentals came up with for any of the "big three" 24-70mm f2.8 lenses, better than the Fuji 16-55mm f2.8 and better than the Olympus 12-40mm f2.8 PRO (from a depth of field perspective, the Fuji is no faster than the Nikkor, and the Olympus is slower, due to the smaller sensors). If this thing shoots like it computes, it's quite simply the sharpest standard zoom ever built (unless there's something obscure, probably either a Leica lens or something with a restricted zoom range). To be fair to Canon, the computed MTF charts for their 28-70 f2 also look incredible.

The proof is in the pictures, and we haven't seen many of those yet, but there may be something special in these big, new mounts (or Nikon and Canon are doing something special with aspherics and/or exotic glass and their standard SLR lenses haven't caught up yet)?

Dan
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: shadowblade on September 12, 2018, 04:46:45 pm
The MTF charts aren't comparable because they're taken at different apertures. You're comparing a 24-70mm lens at f/4 with three other zooms at f/2.8. There would be a problem if it didn't look sharper.

Compare them all at f/4 and you'd likely get a different result.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on September 12, 2018, 05:37:17 pm
Out of curiosity, what makes you say that the capabilities of the Z7 are closer to that of a D750?

Don’t get we wrong, I used to love me D750, but the key differences with the D850 were:
- sensor
- viewfinder
- AF
- framerate
- XQD vs SD
- level of weatherproofing
- feel of the body/construction

On most accounts the Z7 seems to have gone for the D850 spec don’t you think?

Or are you saying that the reports about AF perfo of the Z7 makes you anticipate that it will perform AFwise similarly to the D750?

Cheers,
Bernard

Maybe not entirely based on reality and maybe a little too harsh but I feel Nikon held too many punches to protect their D850.

Just skimming through the initial reports I get the impression that Z7 focus is nowhere close to D850, and most likely significantly under D750 too. I expect Fuji X-T1 level. But I often say the key to happiness is to lower your expectations.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on September 12, 2018, 06:29:24 pm
There aren't any readily available MTF charts of the Canon, Nikon or Sony 24-70mm f2.8 lenses stopped down... The new Nikkor also looks a lot better than the Canon EF 24-70mm f4, the Sony "Zeiss" 24-70mm f4, the Nikkor 24-120mm f4, the Canon EF 24-105mm f4 or the Sigma Art 24-105mm f4. Yes, three of these are longer lenses, and two are older lenses - there are no direct competitors (nobody has a brand-new 24-70mm f4, or for that matter a brand-new 50mm f1.8, in an older mount)...

Remember that the Canon RF 28-70mm f2.0 also looks very good in computed MTF charts, and that has a 1-stop disadvantage compared to the SLR lenses. Either the new mounts, some new optical design or both are producing (at least theoretically) extremely sharp lenses...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on September 12, 2018, 07:08:27 pm
The Z7 is specifically compared to the D850 in durability and weatherproofing - Nikon emphasizes that, and the bodies I handled definitely felt that way - they were really solid.

Due to the inherent advantages of on-sensor hybrid phase/contrast AF, I suspect the focus precision of the z7 will eclipse any other Nikon (the RF should eclipse any other Canon as well). AF coverage on most newer mirrorless designs will be wider than any DSLR, from any manufacturer - this is just an advantage of on-sensor AF over any viable separate sensor (and, even if you're willing to use a DSLR in live view without an eye-level viewfinder, nobody has put a huge number of PDAF points on a DSLR sensor yet). AF speed won't be as fast as the best DSLRs, although it's better than an X-T1 by a significant margin.

The Z7 has a relatively slow framerate (the Z6 and the Canon RF are both faster), but you aren't taking the film holder out and turning it around after every shot, and it's getting close to 4x5" film resolution (it's probably better than almost any sub-4x5 film, and 6x9 cm, another possible comparison, was never a film format known for high frame rates, either). How often do you need both absurdly high resolution and the framerate of a movie camera?

The idea of the Z7 is to take a very, very, very high-quality sensor and put it in a durable, ergonomic package with superb optics. It's not meant to be the ultimate Instagram camera, the best choice for shooting the Olympics or the Indy 500, nor even necessarily the best camera for day-to-day shooting if you don't print big (it'll happily melt your computer and overload your drives, and it doesn't offer the ideal lens for pictures of the kids).

It's built to be Galen Rowell's dream camera - the most image quality you can haul the farthest from the trailhead and bang around/get rained on. It also has applications in some places where medium format digital is the other choice - fashion, architecture and product photography (and the focusing is far better than current MF digital). The D850 works just as well in those applications, but no better. From the early "reviews", the Z7 will probably succeed at its goal...

The Z6, EOS-R and A7III are meant to be more versatile - they offer good resolution, although not as jaw-dropping as the Z7, more speed and they're cheaper with files that are less of a pain to edit.

 If you can lift your printer by yourself (unless you're a bodybuilder and can somehow lift a modern 24" or 44" printer!), you are not the Z7's target customer (or the A7r III's, for that matter). It feeds big, luscious files to big, ugly printers for big, gorgeous prints, and that's all it does.

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: faberryman on September 12, 2018, 07:33:36 pm
If you can lift your printer by yourself (unless you're a bodybuilder and can somehow lift a modern 24" or 44" printer!), you are not the Z7's target customer (or the A7r III's, for that matter). It feeds big, luscious files to big, ugly printers for big, gorgeous prints, and that's all it does.
The Z7 sensor resolution is 8256x5504. My printer, which I can pick up, has a native resolution of 360ppi, which means a print size of 23"x15". So the Z7 resolution is just about right for small prints too.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 12, 2018, 08:06:34 pm
It's built to be Galen Rowell's dream camera - the most image quality you can haul the farthest from the trailhead and bang around/get rained on. It also has applications in some places where medium format digital is the other choice - fashion, architecture and product photography (and the focusing is far better than current MF digital). The D850 works just as well in those applications, but no better. From the early "reviews", the Z7 will probably succeed at its goal... .

Very good point Dan. I hadn't thought of Galen Rowell, but now that you mention it that's right on. This is indeed his dream camera come true.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on September 12, 2018, 09:59:55 pm
Very good point Dan. I hadn't thought of Galen Rowell, but now that you mention it that's right on. This is indeed his dream camera come true.

Cheers,
Bernard

I certainly hope you are both right. As I said above the 24-70 and probably the 14-30 fit with that, I'm not sure we have the telephoto covered. I feel that 70 is a touch too short, would have been nicer in the 90-120 range. You can theoretically add the 70-200 F4 or the newest 70-300 with the adapter but the weight will be a little too much.

PS. On a second thought it might be enough with the extra resolution of Z7, you can have a 105mmm equiv with 20+ MP, probably enough for most purposes.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: DP on September 12, 2018, 10:30:51 pm
nobody has put a huge number of PDAF points on a DSLR sensor yet)
Canon Dual Pixel PDAF sensors are in their dSLRs ... the mere fact that firmware does not present you so many "PDAF points" in dSLR's UI in LV mode does not mean that Canon can't
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on September 12, 2018, 10:46:08 pm
How wide is the spread of the Dual Pixels on any of the Canon DSLRs - I believe there is hardware behind that, either on the sensor itself or in the various filter layers above it? I don't know where they are on the sensor...

On the issue of a telephoto for the Z system, I'm hoping Nikon comes out with a high-quality variable aperture 70-300 (Canon actually had a Fresnel version) - they are welcome to do constant-aperture versions as well, but a really compact lens would be something like f4-5.6. There have been a couple of nice lenses in that focal length and aperture range (the current Canon L and possibly the DO Fresnel version, plus the latest Nikon AF-P VR version) as well as a lot of forgettable ones. Nikon could use the big mount and their increasing expertise with PF lenses to produce something compact but high quality...

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on September 13, 2018, 01:35:46 am
I tend to be brief when typing from a phone.


Je n'ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n'ai pas eu le loisir de la faire plus courte.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: francois on September 13, 2018, 03:31:57 am
Je n'ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n'ai pas eu le loisir de la faire plus courte.

 ;D
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: davidgp on September 13, 2018, 06:20:55 am
How wide is the spread of the Dual Pixels on any of the Canon DSLRs - I believe there is hardware behind that, either on the sensor itself or in the various filter layers above it? I don't know where they are on the sensor...

Dual Pixels and PDAF on sensor is not something it is done over or behind the sensor, it is done in the sensor itself. At pixel level in the sensor.

- In PDAF, in a very broad view, what they do, if they say that a camera has XXX number of PDAF points, 2 x XXX pixels of the sensors are used. Over the microlens that is put over the pixel/photodiode itself, the block half of it, usually in the green pixels, and the other half in a pixel next to it. So, each pixel is recieving light from oposite sides lens, what is needed of PDAF to work. There are two drawbacks from this approach: maing one, you have 2 x XXX amount of pixels getting half light, those pixels have more noise. Anyway, Sony commented that the percentage is to low for someone to worry about. Also, the metal that blocks the light can create some banding paterns, this is more noticiable in "lower" megapixel cameras (you can find lots of threads around internet about this topic for the Sony A7 III or A9, it is not the banding due to light sync with electronic shutter, it is something more subtle).

- Canon when other way, a more interesting one, their sensors, again a very general explanation, in reality, they are not a 30 megapixel sensor (like the one in the Canon 5D Mark IV), it is in reality a 60 megapixel sensor. Each pair of pixels shares one unique microlens, in this way, each, let's call it sub-pixel, gets light from one side of the lens. Each pair of this sub-pixels is a PDAF sensor. They use that information to AF the lens and then, when they create the image, they joing the light capture by each subpixel into just one pixel. If you speak people that does video everybody says the same, Canon has the best AF for video, and this is understable, they collect in all pixels Phase Detect information... they have more information for tracking than anybody else. They just need the procesing power and CPU to use it.

I read other method in a paper of Sony about how to do phase detect at pixel level (I need to look for the reference) that I was not able to follow, since they were using some mathematical model to extract the Phase information in a derivative way that will not have the problems of blocking half of the pixel, but I think they have not implemented yet in any camera, maybe the idea was not good from the theoretical model to a practical one.

Regards,

David
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Paulo Bizarro on September 13, 2018, 09:01:20 am
This is a large part of the reason I use Leica M. Superb lenses that fit in the palm of my hand and compact but solid bodies.

Same feeling here, but replace with Alpha 7 and Loxia lenses:)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: KLaban on September 13, 2018, 09:28:29 am
Same feeling here, but replace with Alpha 7 and Loxia lenses:)

Now, if only the lenses were faster, the bodies had rangefinders and haptics that didn't see me wanting to slam them into a wall...

;-)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 13, 2018, 10:04:49 am
The Z7 was announced to become available in Japan on Sept-28th.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: HSakols on September 13, 2018, 10:47:49 pm
Or Galen would have embraced a Nikon 7200 and a kit lens?  But at that point I would just go with the Olympus.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on September 13, 2018, 11:15:12 pm
Or Galen would have embraced a Nikon 7200 and a kit lens?  But at that point I would just go with the Olympus.

The smaller formats do have the advantage of increased DOF, usually nice to have in landscape, but they come with less DR and more work on colors. From what I read on Galen I think a small m43, E-M5 or smaller, with a couple of small sharp zooms (the much lighter nonpro) are very good candidates. On the same token a X-T20 with the 18-55 would look good too.
In the end I would vote for a Nikon 3000's series with something like a 18-55 or 18-140 lens for one major reason: battery. You can go much longer with a single battery if you don't review the shots, you can plan your shots without even turning on the camera.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 14, 2018, 12:05:48 am
The smaller formats do have the advantage of increased DOF, usually nice to have in landscape, but they come with less DR and more work on colors. From what I read on Galen I think a small m43, E-M5 or smaller, with a couple of small sharp zooms (the much lighter nonpro) are very good candidates. On the same token a X-T20 with the 18-55 would look good too.
In the end I would vote for a Nikon 3000's series with something like a 18-55 or 18-140 lens for one major reason: battery. You can go much longer with a single battery if you don't review the shots, you can plan your shots without even turning on the camera.

We'd have to ask Thom Hogan his view on this. :-)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on September 14, 2018, 11:41:57 am
The problem with Micro 4/3 is the image quality hit from the sensor... In the days of film, Galen's FM2 (if I remember correctly) took exactly the same picture as an F4 three times the size and weight - it didn't do the work for you, but if you had the same film in it and the same lens on it, you could get the same result (and there were good small primes, and the occasional zoom, if you were willing to sacrifice aperture to get the size and weight).

Now, the film is part of the camera, and Micro 4/3 cameras are permanently loaded with film that has a lower maximum acuity (ability to reproduce details) and dynamic range than a good larger sensor. I have always found that sensors smaller than APS-C don't live up to their MP rating by the standards of larger sensors. A 12 MP iPhone doesn't have over half the overall performance of 20 MP Micro 4/3, and, in turn, 20 MP Micro 4/3 doesn't have 5/6 the performance of 24 MP Fuji. Between good APS-C and full-frame, it's darned close - if you rank modern APS-C and larger sensors by MP, you have a good idea of their overall performance for low ISO landscape-type shooting.

 Digital performance as a whole is better than most films used to be, so even a good Micro 4/3 sensor with a good lens can beat almost all 35mm film. On the other hand, an X-T2 with the 18-55 (one of the few actually decent compact APS-C zooms, and it's very good) can beat most 645 film (I print high-detail landscape as large as 24x36 from that combination). Double the acuity of the sensor again (and add dynamic range) by going to a Z7 with the new 24-70, assuming it lives up to its computed MTF chart, and you're past 6x9 cm medium format and closely approaching 4x5" territory.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on September 14, 2018, 03:03:47 pm
Theoretically the difference between m43 and APS-C is smaller than the difference between APS-C and full frame. I think a lot of the extra difference between m43 and APS-C is related to the generation of the sensor. I have the RX100 iv and its sensor is quite close to the m43 from the E-M5ii, closer than expected based on the size difference.

With a top of the line sensor m43 can stay competitive for when light and compact is needed. Problem is for how long can m43 survive, Oly is not having much success lately. With the new releases in the mirrorless world it's difficult to justify the price on the E-M1ii and the new one needs to even better for less, tough to do.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: scooby70 on September 15, 2018, 07:19:32 am
I'd recommend that people start with the end product they want to produce and work backwards from there.

Do you want a picture to be viewed on screen or printed and if so how large? Will you be cropping? Is the subject static or moving? What end image quality is acceptable? That sort of thing. Once these questions are asked and answered an informed decision can be made.

I've been a MFT user since the GF1 came out and IMO the later bodies produce image quality that would have been almost science fiction just a few years ago. When I had my 5D I thought it was all the camera I'd ever need but MFT very probably beats the 5D let alone anything I ever got from 35mm film for image quality (IMO) and enables me to take pictures at much higher ISO's and still get a useable and even good result.

I'd disagree with some of the opinions of others regarding Fuji APS-C. I've not seen anything for Fuji so far that would convince me to go that route and I don't think APS-C leaves MFT too far behind at all. I think that FF is a significant move forward from MFT but there are drawbacks too which can include bulk, cost and weight depending upon your choice of lens and perhaps even performance as the latter MFT bodies are incredibly fast beasts.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on September 15, 2018, 08:25:01 am
I'd recommend that people start with the end product they want to produce and work backwards from there.

Do you want a picture to be viewed on screen or printed and if so how large? Will you be cropping? Is the subject static or moving? What end image quality is acceptable? That sort of thing. Once these questions are asked and answered an informed decision can be made.

Great comment and one that is too often overlooked as we debate arcane facts about cameras.  If one is only going to print modest size (less than 17x25) a 24 megapixel sensor is just fine so one would opt for a Z6 if that is the primary consideration.  Personally, I think we are really spoiled with all this great equipment (cameras, printers and software).  Look at what all the great photographers of the pre-digital age had to do to get great prints (I'm not saying that everyone with a digital camera and printer makes great prints but the ease in accomplishing things is key).  Lots of us started printing while using 6mP and 12mP cameras and now look at sensor size.  Folks are moaning about the absence of two card slots on these new cameras despite the fact that we all coped well enough when we had cameras with one card slot.  I never had a card or read failure with my old D300 over about 7000 digital captures.  I don't even use the CF slot on the D810.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on September 15, 2018, 10:02:34 am
The main reason I would be interested in a high resolution body is the fact I gain 1.5xFL with good quality from the APS-C region.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Ray on September 15, 2018, 09:59:06 pm
The main reason I would be interested in a high resolution body is the fact I gain 1.5xFL with good quality from the APS-C region.

Not only is a 1.5x crop capability useful, but also a 2x crop, and 3x crop, and even a 4x crop. A 3x crop of a 45mp image would be 5 mp, probably good enough for an A4 size print. A 4x crop would be only 2.8 mp, probably still good enough for an A4 size print, or at least 5" x 7" print, as well as an HDTV display, depending on the nature of the subject and the quality of the lens used. If razor sharp eyelashes and sharp individual strands of hair are required, then 2.8 mp and 5 mp crops would not pass muster.

When I first visited this site, Canon's first DSLR, the 3 mp D30, was all the rage. Michael praised this camera for matching the resolution of 35mm film, at least on an A4 size print, but not quite on an A3 size print. We had to wait for the 6 mp D60 for that. The camera following the D60 was the 10D which had noticeably improved noise characteristics, but was still 6 mp.

Out of interest, I've compared DXOMark's results for that early Canon 10D, with the recent Nikon D850, at the pixel level (ie. screen option).

Amazingly, at base ISO, the SNR at 18% level, for the smaller D850 pixel, is 2dB better than the 10D pixel, not significant, but better than nothing. The DR of the D850 pixel is very significantly higher, a full 2.5 stops better. Tonal range is also better for the D850 pixel. Color Sensitivity is at least marginally better, at base ISO. However, such improvements do not apply at higher ISOs, except for DR, which is still close to 2 stops better at all high ISOs.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 16, 2018, 06:55:11 pm
Great comment and one that is too often overlooked as we debate arcane facts about cameras.  If one is only going to print modest size (less than 17x25) a 24 megapixel sensor is just fine so one would opt for a Z6 if that is the primary consideration.  Personally, I think we are really spoiled with all this great equipment (cameras, printers and software).  Look at what all the great photographers of the pre-digital age had to do to get great prints (I'm not saying that everyone with a digital camera and printer makes great prints but the ease in accomplishing things is key).  Lots of us started printing while using 6mP and 12mP cameras and now look at sensor size.  Folks are moaning about the absence of two card slots on these new cameras despite the fact that we all coped well enough when we had cameras with one card slot.  I never had a card or read failure with my old D300 over about 7000 digital captures.  I don't even use the CF slot on the D810.

That is all very true, but it is difficult to accept going back once you’ve gotten used to better.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: chez on September 16, 2018, 08:11:44 pm
That is all very true, but it is difficult to accept going back once you’ve gotten used to better.

Cheers,
Bernard

Exactly right. We all once watched TV on 21" screens and thought it was great. Now we can't even process our images on anything less than 27".
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on September 16, 2018, 08:51:38 pm
That's very true of 35mm film - people sometimes forget that 11x14" was about the maximum for good print quality from most film on a high-detail subject - 16x20" required very slow film and a lot of care... 24x36" was clearly medium-format territory.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Ray on September 17, 2018, 12:56:30 am
I'm curious to test for myself how a 4x crop of a D810 image can look. Is the detail good enough for an A4 size print?
The attached full-frame image of ancient Buddha statues carved into a rocky hillside in China (Hangzhou), and attached 4x crop of the same image, illustrate my point.

The full-frame shot portrays the general background, and the crop shows the full detail of the sitting Buddha, which would only be visible on a 32" x 48" size print, from a close viewing point.

A 4x crop of the 36mp of the D810 is just 2.25mp. The example I've shown is a downsized 2.3mp crop, close enough. It was a dull day, and to get a reasonably fast shutter speed in the lighting conditions, I had to raise ISO to 200, using an aperture of F5.6 for reasonable DoF. The lens doesn't have image stabilization. A faster shutter speed would probably have delivered sharper results. (Nikkor 14-24 at 24mm and F5.6 - shutter speed 1/50th, hand-held.)

If we use that ancient guideline of a shutter speed of 1/focal length for a reasonably sharp A4 size print, in the days of film, then 1/50th is a bit on the slow side. A 4x crop of a 24mm full-frame shot is equivalent to a 4x24mm = 96mm lens. Perhaps I should have used a shutter speed of 1/100th.  ;)

If I'd been using a Nikon Z7 with adapter, in these circumstances, the 4x crop factor would have resulted in a 2.86 mp image, a slight improvement over 2.25 mp. However, more significantly, I would have been able to use the base ISO of 64 because of the IBIS feature of the Z7. The resulting image would be slightly sharper because of the greater pixel count, probably sharper to some degree because of the image stabilization, and would definitely have lower noise at ISO 64, compared with ISO 200.

Are all these factors significant when combined? I think so. Oops! I'm getting a bit anal. Must rush to the toilet.  ;D


Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on September 17, 2018, 01:26:26 am
Great comment and one that is too often overlooked as we debate arcane facts about cameras.  If one is only going to print modest size (less than 17x25) a 24 megapixel sensor is just fine so one would opt for a Z6 if that is the primary consideration. 

Maybe, but I am impressed with your composition skills if you print all your pixels! I shoot a lot of dancers and leave a margin for error to make sure I don't clip a foot or something; I end up using about half the pixels on a good day. That's OK with a D850 but limiting with u43.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on September 17, 2018, 07:27:57 am
Maybe, but I am impressed with your composition skills if you print all your pixels! I shoot a lot of dancers and leave a margin for error to make sure I don't clip a foot or something; I end up using about half the pixels on a good day. That's OK with a D850 but limiting with u43.
Except for street photography, I try to choose the lens (or zoom length it that's what I am using) to capture the image in full frame.  This minimizes cropping so that I have as many pixels as possible.  In addition, I don't think I have ever printed bigger than 17x25 as that's pretty much the capacity of my Epson 3880. 
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on September 17, 2018, 07:33:38 am
That's very true of 35mm film - people sometimes forget that 11x14" was about the maximum for good print quality from most film on a high-detail subject - 16x20" required very slow film and a lot of care... 24x36" was clearly medium-format territory.
In the print days, one was also limited by available paper sizes and for really big prints a special enlarger was required.  Some years ago we had a very exhaustive Ansel Adams retrospective at the National Gallery here in Washington and I don't think there was any print larger than a 16x20 (which was only a two-fold enlargement for an 8x10 negative or four-fold from a 4x5).  With modern inkjet printers and wide roll paper, prints much larger than that are much easier to produce.  If Adams were alive today he would marvel at the small size of equipment that can produce extremely sharp prints relative to the view cameras he trekked with.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Rob C on September 17, 2018, 08:26:35 am
That's very true of 35mm film - people sometimes forget that 11x14" was about the maximum for good print quality from most film on a high-detail subject - 16x20" required very slow film and a lot of care... 24x36" was clearly medium-format territory.


I used to regularly have 40"x60" exhibition fashion prints made from Nikon negatives (FP3/4) for fashion conventions, manufacturer display and department store promotion.

The secret is expected viewing distance and not some arbitrary number some guy dreams up after a bad night's sleep. If you have to sniff, try coke or just catch a cold.

Frankly, photographers are the last people anyone should ask when it comes to such matters: their heads are so often up their ass and clouded by thoughts of how much their toy cost, what it should do and on and interminably on.

Reality is reality, not some theoretical numbers game. But hey, that would kill the "fun" part, right?

Oy vey, already.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: D Fuller on September 17, 2018, 10:06:39 am

I used to regularly have 40"x60" exhibition fashion prints made from Nikon negatives (FP3/4) for fashion conventions, manufacturer display and department store promotion.

The secret is expected viewing distance and not some arbitrary number some guy dreams up after a bad night's sleep. If you have to sniff, try coke or just catch a cold.

Frankly, photographers are the last people anyone should ask when it comes to such matters: their heads are so often up their ass and clouded by thoughts of how much their toy cost, what it should do and on and interminably on.

Reality is reality, not some theoretical numbers game. But hey, that would kill the "fun" part, right?

Oy vey, already.

This is a really god point, Rob.

I remember going to an Avedon retrospective at MoMA a few years ago, where there were plenty of 20x24 and larger from 35mm negs. I commented at the time that the "technical" quality by today's standards was awful. Camera shake was evident all over the place. But oh, what wonderful images! I suspect that the inability to zoom an image up 1:1 on a monitor saved a lot if truly wonderful images from the dustbin over the last half-century.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Rob C on September 17, 2018, 11:17:05 am
This is a really god point, Rob.

I remember going to an Avedon retrospective at MoMA a few years ago, where there were plenty of 20x24 and larger from 35mm negs. I commented at the time that the "technical" quality by today's standards was awful. Camera shake was evident all over the place. But oh, what wonderful images! I suspect that the inability to zoom an image up 1:1 on a monitor saved a lot if truly wonderful images from the dustbin over the last half-century.

Yes, and you made an equally good one about Avedon.

For my own photography these days, I seldom zoom to anything above whatever the file opens up at on the monitor. Usually, I lower that down too, so that my editing image looks to be about 4"x6" on the screen. That way, I get a pretty good idea of what the image is, rather than what parts of it look like. A big display forces that scanning process because the eye just can't help scanning. It's what it does all day. Wood; trees.

I do blow it up when I have to do something clever locally, and it's too tiny for me to cope with small.

Of course, were I still in the selling business, then I would naturally inspect everything at 100% before even starting work on a file.

No longer having a working photographic-style printer, all I'm interested in achieving is what looks okay on my website.

That said, I often think on the topic of posterity and how fleeting the life of a file will probably be. So much effort, time, love and care, and perhaps it will all vanish without tangible trace.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system ... and pixel needs for viewing intent
Post by: BJL on September 17, 2018, 01:20:08 pm
Thanks Rob for the sanity about what I more geekishly call _intended apparent image size_ which comes down to the ratio of image size to viewing distance. I usually see huge prints viewed from the same distance as an equally large painting—a bit further than the long dimension of the image. With that “normal” or “typical” viewing, what works for an 8”x10” viewed from 12” to 15” (the comfortable minimum for most people, at least past a certain age) is just as good when those inches are replaced by feet or metres. And there is good evidence that about 5MP is then good enough for most images viewed that way. For example, 2000x1600 = 3.2MP is enough for a 200 PPI dye sub print at 10X8, and such prints were already considered a match for traditional darkroom prints for quality.

I also remember the Canon 1D being taken seriously even for various professional tasks like weddings, and it had a 4MP CCD (outsourced from Panasonic).

Since that is how I typically intend my images to be viewed, 24MP would already make me comfortable with very loose framing of wildlife or dancers, allowing a 2X crop if needed.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Telecaster on September 17, 2018, 04:32:51 pm
Around this time in 2002 the ICP in New York hosted Winogrand 1964, an exhibition featuring a fair amount of color work taken on Kodachrome. A friend and I went to see it. The photos were displayed pretty big, with some ~6x4'. Huge grain and fuzzy detail from more than a few of 'em but the subject matter and composition made that all but irrelevant. I think the strong texture and lack of fine detail even enhanced our appreciation of the framing and content.

-Dave-
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Rob C on September 17, 2018, 05:37:04 pm
Around this time in 2002 the ICP in New York hosted Winogrand 1964, an exhibition featuring a fair amount of color work taken on Kodachrome. A friend and I went to see it. The photos were displayed pretty big, with some ~6x4'. Huge grain and fuzzy detail from more than a few of 'em but the subject matter and composition made that all but irrelevant. I think the strong texture and lack of fine detail even enhanced our appreciation of the framing and content.

-Dave-


Which is why Sarah Moon used 500 ASA colour film for so much of her early work. Even with low magnification the grain was visible to give its intrinsic quality effect.

You need only consider that street posters were also made from 135 and 120 film quite often, and seen from the car or the pavement, those hoardings could look amazing.

It's all down to viewing distance, but even so, I think that small digital doesn't hold up nicely; grain can be attractive, but not pixels.

However, even at nominal 400/320 ASA there are differences in look when blown up very large. Ilford's fast stuff was softer, more mushy at extremes, whereas Kodak's version was harder, more crisply granular, which I guess comes down to coating techniques more than chemistry, because grain is grain and perhaps the way you pile it together makes the difference in look - or not. Grey area, so to speak.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 18, 2018, 01:50:29 am
https://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/reviews/compactsystemcameras/nikon-z7

Very positive review overall.

Their conclusion:

Indeed the Z 7 gives the impression that Nikon hasn’t held anything back in a bid to protect its DSLRs, and instead has produced the best mirrorless camera it believes it can make right now, that will handle more-or-less like a mini-D850.  This sets it apart from Canon’s EOS R, which feels more like a design experiment that’s trying to be different for the sake of it. Naturally the Z 7 has its own foibles and irritations, but overall it gets considerably more right than it does wrong. Indeed for applications where its few specific weaknesses are unimportant, I think that on balance, it’s the best camera on the market right now, either mirrorless or DSLR.
Read more at https://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/reviews/compactsystemcameras/nikon-z7/8#QAy9h46w1LukcMxC.99


Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on September 18, 2018, 05:57:46 am
https://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/reviews/compactsystemcameras/nikon-z7

Very positive review overall.

Their conclusion:

Indeed the Z 7 gives the impression that Nikon hasn’t held anything back in a bid to protect its DSLRs, and instead has produced the best mirrorless camera it believes it can make right now, that will handle more-or-less like a mini-D850.  This sets it apart from Canon’s EOS R, which feels more like a design experiment that’s trying to be different for the sake of it. Naturally the Z 7 has its own foibles and irritations, but overall it gets considerably more right than it does wrong. Indeed for applications where its few specific weaknesses are unimportant, I think that on balance, it’s the best camera on the market right now, either mirrorless or DSLR.
Read more at https://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/reviews/compactsystemcameras/nikon-z7/8#QAy9h46w1LukcMxC.99


Cheers,
Bernard

Yes, very positive - did they not read Kevin's summary ?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 18, 2018, 08:26:03 am
Yes, very positive - did they not read Kevin's summary ?

Well, Kevin essentially just wrote that the lenses feel cheap(er than heavy metal ones) and that his friend Tony killed the Z7. Which is factual.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: bobtowery on September 18, 2018, 02:23:02 pm
Re: the one QXD card issue. Seems to me it would have been very easy to include 128gb (or more) of internal memory. There isn't even any setup. Whatever is written to the card is written to internal memory, overwriting the oldest files. You can then connect the camera to computer via USB, and have the option of reading internal or the card.

In the unlikely event that a card ever failed, you'd have that much of of your images stored in the internal memory.

It's true that having another card slot would take up more precious real estate. A small on-board memory chip would solve this and would be faster than any card.

And there's an additional benefit that if you ended up forgetting your card (etc) you could choose to go ahead and shoot with internal memory only.

There you go Nikon!
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on September 21, 2018, 01:55:25 pm
More evidence that the new Nikkor Z lenses may be exceptional... Tokina just released computed MTF charts on their new Opera 50mm f1.4 (a competitor to Sigma Art in the "super 50mm, cheaper than Otus and with AF" category). They're significantly better than the mostly older and cheaper F-mount Nikkors (as you'd expect a $949, 950 gram (nearly 2 lb) lens to be), but they aren't even in a league with the Z-mount lens. Of course, this is computed chart to computed chart - I'll be very interested to see Roger Cicala's real measurements, then see (more importantly) what photographers can do with these lenses in the real world... Yes, the Tokina is half a stop faster - but the charts didn't look close enough that stopping it down should close the gap...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: gkroeger on September 21, 2018, 03:37:57 pm
Where Nikon has an opportunity to "hit it out of the park" is in consistency and QC. Sample to sample variation and alignment issues are often the real limitations on lens performance, not the ultimate potential of the design. In their introduction, Nikon seemed to be emphasizing better QC.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: faberryman on September 21, 2018, 04:24:27 pm
In their introduction, Nikon seemed to be emphasizing better QC.
How so?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: gkroeger on September 21, 2018, 05:09:42 pm
At about 33.5 minutes into the long, boring introduction event, they explained that the S-line grade is reserved for lenses that have cleared more rigorous standards for MTF performance and stricter quality control standards.  We'll see?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 21, 2018, 05:26:57 pm
How so?

By stressing that one characteristic of the S series lenses are tighter and more repeatable manufacturing tolerances.

I am a bit surprised overall by the lack of acknowledgement about Nikon’s skills in terms of iens design sometimes. All of their recent F mount releases have been best in class in their segment (19mm T/S, 105mm f1.4, 70-200 f2.8,...) and those were just regular F mount lenses designed for a mount known to be super limiting optically.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: johnvanatta on September 21, 2018, 07:38:32 pm
The bit about QC is in the lens brochure too. It's a fairly thorough document that I'm not sure Nikon bothered to tell anyone existed?

https://cdn-4.nikon-cdn.com/e/Q5NM96RZZo-RRZZFeeMiveET0gpU-PYm90DZMEpjBfZRR51BYn9b4sjxcCuc2_t9Tr8iw3d-qf0=/Misc/NIKKOR-Z-Brochure.pdf

Nikon marketing...anyway I think they are skittish about hammering this point since the corollary is that their *existing* lenses don't have sufficient QC. A bit of an industry problem that's convenient to ignore until you've got a solution [editorial: see also PDAF's poor precision].
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: faberryman on September 21, 2018, 07:41:30 pm
I don't know enough about lens manufacture to assess why Z-mount lenses would be susceptible to better quality control than F-mounts lenses.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 21, 2018, 08:50:57 pm
I don't know enough about lens manufacture to assess why Z-mount lenses would be susceptible to better quality control than F-mounts lenses.

This aspect is in no way related to the mount.

It is simply the result of investment in higher quality manufacturing equipment , stricter tolerances for parts, stricter QA rejection criteria,... that they have deployed as part of the S line lenses.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: HSakols on September 22, 2018, 09:55:33 am
Quote
Where Nikon has an opportunity to "hit it out of the park" is in consistency and QC.

I'm sure this is just advertising. 

It is the same thing as getting the Leica name put on Panasonic Lenses.  It still is a Panasonic Lens not a Leica lens but you pay for the name.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: gkroeger on September 22, 2018, 10:13:25 am
Could be... that's why I say "we'll see."  What I do know is that QA for Sony/Zeiss FE lenses is their Achilles heel. Sample to sample alignment problems are common. The G and G-Master series seem to be better.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on September 22, 2018, 10:22:27 am
I'm sure this is just advertising. 

It is the same thing as getting the Leica name put on Panasonic Lenses.  It still is a Panasonic Lens not a Leica lens but you pay for the name.

But the S lenses are Nikon lenses with a Nikon badge, no?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: HSakols on September 22, 2018, 10:45:58 am
Quote
But the S lenses are Nikon lenses with a Nikon badge, no?

I'm just saying that a big part of this is creating a mystique around the god of Nikon. 

Oh, and I'm a sucker.  I plan on purchasing one when they are available.  My Nikon D800 is on Ebay. 
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Rob C on September 22, 2018, 04:56:39 pm
I don't think that higher priced lenses will do anything to stop lemons leaving the end if the line. It seems to me that it is industry standard now to expect the customer to be the final inspection department. If they return the rotten fruit, cool; if not, then even better. Do all buyers even know what they should be getting from their glass?

Rob
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on September 23, 2018, 03:39:15 am
A "field report" - sort of a puff piece, but some nice pictures...

http://www.squiver.com/blog/nikon-z7-field-report/
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 23, 2018, 08:59:00 am
I don't think that higher priced lenses will do anything to stop lemons leaving the end if the line. It seems to me that it is industry standard now to expect the customer to be the final inspection department. If they return the rotten fruit, cool; if not, then even better. Do all buyers even know what they should be getting from their glass?

Maybe, but although competitors have looked real real hard there have been next to zero reports of faulty D850 or recent high end Nikon lenses.

Having first hand knowledge about the hate of over-commitment of Nikon engineers, I believe there is more than marketing talk to their claims about QC for S line lenses.

The good news being that lens rental will soon have actual measurements to tell us if Nikon is talking BS or not. And since we all know that these results will be published and scrutenized, it would be incredibly foolish on Nikon’s part to make such claims if they were not true.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 26, 2018, 07:29:01 pm
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/61650197

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 26, 2018, 11:17:06 pm
https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/news/nikons-future-z-system-plans-revealed

Marketing oriented of course, but some pretty interesting comments.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: shadowblade on September 27, 2018, 01:52:03 am
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/61650197

Cheers,
Bernard

To me, this is the single most telling line in the review:

Quote
If so, and explicit in relation to action, sports, BIF, insects in flight and wildlife photography, Z serie' AF has still to be improved a lot to become a D850 competitor or replacement.

And, unlike the pre-production reviews, this one appears to come from a production model.

AF capability vis-a-vis SLR was always going to be the big distinguishing feature among the new mirrorless bodies. Looks like we'll need to wait for the next generation for a mirrorless D850 (or D850 successor, as it would be by that time). Or, if 30MP works for you, go for the EOS R - Canon's dual-pixel AF looks much more promising (although I'd expect a mirrorless, 50-70MP successor to the 5Ds sooner rather than later - the 5Ds is getting rather old and was never great to begin with - so it may be worth waiting for that). And we already know that the A7III/A7r3/A9 can handle fast action just fine, and that Sony's expanding its AI-based AF algorithms to include eye AF on animals, among other things (I hope this includes birds, snakes, leopards and elephants too, not just domestic cats and dogs); according to Sony's wording, this may even be a firmware update, not just a hardware one for future cameras.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 27, 2018, 02:16:05 am
To me, this is the single most telling line in the review:

And, unlike the pre-production reviews, this one appears to come from a production model.

AF capability vis-a-vis SLR was always going to be the big distinguishing feature among the new mirrorless bodies. Looks like we'll need to wait for the next generation for a mirrorless D850 (or D850 successor, as it would be by that time). Or, if 30MP works for you, go for the EOS R - Canon's dual-pixel AF looks much more promising (although I'd expect a mirrorless, 50-70MP successor to the 5Ds sooner rather than later - the 5Ds is getting rather old and was never great to begin with - so it may be worth waiting for that). And we already know that the A7III/A7r3/A9 can handle fast action just fine, and that Sony's expanding its AI-based AF algorithms to include eye AF on animals, among other things (I hope this includes birds, snakes, leopards and elephants too, not just domestic cats and dogs); according to Sony's wording, this may even be a firmware update, not just a hardware one for future cameras.

Why am I not surprised to see you single out one slightly negative line among 100 positives ones?  ;D

Btw, I have seen positive comments about the Canon R video AF, but haven't heard any raving reviews about the AF for native lenses or converted ones on moving subjects for still photography. It is anybody's guess as to whether it is better than the Z AF.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: shadowblade on September 27, 2018, 09:08:04 am
Why am I not surprised to see you single out one slightly negative line among 100 positives ones?  ;D

Because all the positive comments are all either completely subjective (e.g. ergonomics) or are what you'd simply expect any competent camera to be able to do in 2018 (i.e. you'd be annoyed if it didn't have it). As in, they simply say that the camera meets the baseline (D850/A7r3/A7III) level of performance, not that it rises above and beyond what other systems can already do. It can take 420 shots without running out of battery? Guess what - it's supposed to. Decent sensor? You'd be whinging if it didn't meet the same standard as the SLRs. Has IBIS? So does every other mirrorless system other than Canon.

In short, all the 'positive' comments aren't really 'positive', in the sense that they aren't things in which the camera stands head-and-shoulders above its rivals. They simply mention areas in which the new camera meets the expected baseline, as defined by current SLR and mirrorless competitors.

Poor AF isn't 'slightly' negative. It means that the camera can't do the same job as the D850 can, and, therefore, can't replace an SLR in the same roles. Which may be fine if your photography doesn't require the full capabilities of a modern SLR (say, if you're a portrait, product or architecture photographer) but it means. Other reviews compared its AF to the A7r2 - fine if your subject isn't moving, but inadequate for a go-everywhere, do-everything camera. There are reasons Sony wasn't a real competitor to Canon/Nikon outside of a few select applications (video, the non-action enthusiast market and Canon shooters needing better sensors) until 2017, although it was moving in the right direction - lack of native lenses, low battery life, single card slots and slow AF compared to SLRs. Most of these are problems Nikon's mirrorless system has right now. They'll probably have it right for the next generation, but that's 2-3 years away. If you shoot action as well as non-action subjects, you're still going to need the SLR, and since that SLR can do almost everything the mirrorless camera can, the mirrorless body becomes somewhat superfluous.

Quote
Btw, I have seen positive comments about the Canon R video AF, but haven't heard any raving reviews about the AF for native lenses or converted ones on moving subjects for still photography. It is anybody's guess as to whether it is better than the Z AF.

In a mirrorless camera, continuous AF is the same thing as video AF - it's not like an SLR, where video AF is sensor-only and continuous AF still uses the off-sensor AF system. Single-shot AF barely matters - if you're using it, it means that your subject isn't moving, you have time to focus and you can get a perfectly accurate result with manual focus.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 27, 2018, 09:29:36 am
In a mirrorless camera, continuous AF is the same thing as video AF - it's not like an SLR, where video AF is sensor-only and continuous AF still uses the off-sensor AF system.

Apologies, but although the means of focusing are the same, the needs couldn't differ more.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 27, 2018, 09:30:49 am
Poor AF isn't 'slightly' negative.

The review doesn't speak at all about poor AF. I speaks about good overall AF performance but not quite up to the very best on the market for sports.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: shadowblade on September 27, 2018, 09:41:08 am
Apologies, but although the means of focusing are the same, the needs couldn't differ more.

Cheers,
Bernard

It's done using exactly the same system, using exactly the same methods. It's not rocket science for the firmware to tell it to go as quickly as possible for stills, and slowly and smoothly for video. And the sensitivity setting is equally applicable to both. Assuming the firmware writers aren't complete idiots, a camera that can do one well has the hardware required to do the other equally well.

Anyway, you can pick up a Canon mirrorless crop camera now and see exactly how well it functions for yourself. It's pretty fast.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: shadowblade on September 27, 2018, 09:49:55 am
The review doesn't speak at all about poor AF. I speaks about good overall AF performance but not quite up to the very best on the market for sports.

Cheers,
Bernard

It doesn't match the D850 - in fact, it makes it clear that it doesn't come anywhere close to matching the D850.

Quote
AF has still to be improved a lot to become a D850 competitor or replacement.

That means that it also doesn't come anywhere close to matching the A7r3, A7III or 5D4.

Probably fine for a general walk-around camera, but not up to standard for situations where you're tracking fast action, or just need to nail a shot first time, with minimal delay.

A modern SLR can do these things. The Z7 can't.

For an SLR replacement, the Z7 is a poor substitute. It may be a fun toy to tinker with, but, if you shoot action at all, or if you perform any kind of shooting where you can't afford to lose your photos to memory card failure, you're still reliant on an SLR as your main camera.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: dreed on September 27, 2018, 10:19:27 am
If Nikon has a mirrorless version of the D5 with D5 performance coming soon then I can see that some people will need to eat a lot of humble pie.

Sony is stealing the show anywhere that decides they don't want to put up with shutter slap noise.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on September 27, 2018, 11:02:17 am

Probably fine for a general walk-around camera

Or for a landscape photographer - strange concept for "Luminous Landscape" !!
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: faberryman on September 27, 2018, 11:12:24 am
In short, all the 'positive' comments aren't really 'positive', in the sense that they aren't things in which the camera stands head-and-shoulders above its rivals. They simply mention areas in which the new camera meets the expected baseline, as defined by current SLR and mirrorless competitors.
This was my general takeaway. There are two comparisons to be made. The first against the Nikon D850, and in the case of Canon, the 5DIV, and the second against the Sony A7RIII. In both cases, the new offerings come up short, and given the dearth of native lens offeringss, while these may be seen as good first steps, there is no hurry to adopt, and you might as well wait for the next iterations (hopefully they will have caught up by then) and a decent selection of native lenses are available. Or if you must choose now, go with the Sony. Unless you just have to have a Nikon/Canon, image making be damned.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Chairman Bill on September 27, 2018, 11:36:21 am
As someone who shoots landscapes and portraits, I'm now looking with interest at the new Fujifilm GFX 50R. Seems to be priced at about the same as a Nikon Z7. The issue of lenses matters and I'm quite invested in Nikon, but otherwise ...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: gkroeger on September 27, 2018, 12:43:04 pm
Horses for courses... not everyone shoots action and sports.  I am interesting in landscape and travel, and so for me, meeting the current DSLR standard means the Z7 is a better choice for the future promises of lenses and for the reduced weight and bulk. I don't recall Nikon suggesting that the D7 is a sports or action camera. In fact they constantly remind that they are not leaving the DSLR market.

Glenn
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 27, 2018, 04:01:21 pm
This was my general takeaway. There are two comparisons to be made. The first against the Nikon D850, and in the case of Canon, the 5DIV, and the second against the Sony A7RIII. In both cases, the new offerings come up short, and given the dearth of native lens offeringss, while these may be seen as good first steps, there is no hurry to adopt, and you might as well wait for the next iterations (hopefully they will have caught up by then) and a decent selection of native lenses are available. Or if you must choose now, go with the Sony. Unless you just have to have a Nikon/Canon, image making be damned.

Or...
- you already have F mount lenses
- you need a rugged camera because you sail, shoot often in the rain, face situations where heavy condensation can occur,...
- you value very high quality lenses that are compact on a compact body
- you prefer a better EVF than the very decent a7rIII one
- ...

While remembering that, although a D5 like AF would be better, you remember that you shot successful action images with a D750 and 400mm f2.8 not that long ago and take a realistic position about the AF of the Z7.

In other words you look objectively at the value being delivered.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: shadowblade on September 27, 2018, 04:57:50 pm
Or...
- you already have F mount lenses

Sounds like a great reason to keep shooting SLR for another generation, until the Nikon/Canon systems mature more. You get two slots, better AF and longer battery life, and, if you're going to keep using your old lenses anyway, you're hardly saving on weight and size.

Quote
- you need a rugged camera because you sail, shoot often in the rain, face situations where heavy condensation can occur,...

I've shot the A7r2 in sandstorms, on the rim of active volcanoes, in polar conditions and in tropical rainstorms. It never died. The A7r3 and A9 are even better sealed.

That one test where someone put it under a shower isn't particularly indicative of anything. You're not meant to put these cameras under a shower without protection. It's like asking whether an A7r3, 5D4 or D850 makes a better hammer to pound in tent pegs.

Or, you know, keep shooting that D850. It's built like a tank and works well with your existing lenses.

Quote
- you value very high quality lenses that are compact on a compact body

Of which Nikon has announced exactly one.

Then there's the entire Batis lineup. And the new Sony 24/1.4.

Quote
- you prefer a better EVF than the very decent a7rIII one
- ...

So you'd give up a second card slot, a much larger lens lineup and a whole generation of AF performance... all for an EVF that one user said was slightly better and another said was about the same. Given that the two viewfinders have the same resolution, the fact that Sony makes so many EVFs and display panels and that Nikon's sensors are made by Sony, there's every chance that it's actually exactly the same EVF, with a different fitting/EVF optics over the top.

And we know Sony has a >5MP EVF ready, as well as the multilayer sensor technology (as demonstrated in the A9) to make them function even better than they do in the current generation. Remember, the Z7 is a year newer than the A7r3, and one-and-a-half years newer than the A9. It's supposed to be better. But, evidently, it does not match up.

Quote
In other words you look objectively at the value being delivered.

That's exactly what I did. And the fact is, apart from the sole case of a non-action-shooting, amateur user who puts a huge premium on size and weight (almost to the exclusion of everything else) and who's happy walking around with a single, slow 24-70mm lens, it doesn't deliver anything that isn't delivered better by either a D850 or an A7r3.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on September 27, 2018, 05:23:37 pm
That's exactly what I did. And the fact is, apart from the sole case of a non-action-shooting, amateur user who puts a huge premium on size and weight (almost to the exclusion of everything else) and who's happy walking around with a single, slow 24-70mm lens, it doesn't deliver anything that isn't delivered better by either a D850 or an A7r3.

Good. Well done you. You made the perfect decision. For you. Now - do us all a favour and dont tell us about it any more, eh?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 27, 2018, 06:17:28 pm
That's exactly what I did. And the fact is, apart from the sole case of a non-action-shooting, amateur user who puts a huge premium on size and weight (almost to the exclusion of everything else) and who's happy walking around with a single, slow 24-70mm lens, it doesn't deliver anything that isn't delivered better by either a D850 or an A7r3.

Shadowblade,

I don't want to sound alarming, but I think I may be detecting in you some early sign a slight Sony fanboyism, possibly aggravated by an irrational hatred with anything with a Nikon logo on it?  ;D

One point you may want to think about... when one provides you with a list of points, they may be connected by an "AND", not by an "OR". This should IMHO make you consider to re-assess the relevance of providing isolated answers to each point but instead think of the situation holistically?

I can point you to the remarkable books of Ken Wilber in case you are interested in the value of an holistic approach btw. Because I have no shame to admit that I am a Ken Wilber fanboy. ;)

And, as a final comment, I don't think I ever dared to provide you with advice on what you should be doing in terms of camera choice. I think it would be stupid to do so.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 27, 2018, 07:16:39 pm
As someone who shoots landscapes and portraits, I'm now looking with interest at the new Fujifilm GFX 50R. Seems to be priced at about the same as a Nikon Z7. The issue of lenses matters and I'm quite invested in Nikon, but otherwise ...

Bill,

There is a lot to like about the GFX system, starting with excellent lenses, but honestly I think that the value of the 50mp version is quite limited compared to an a7rIII, D850, Z7. There is quite a price difference, lenses are larger and you don't gain much in terms of image quality... at least probably not enough to compensate for what you lose, starting with AF performance.

On the other hand I find the GFX100 to be a game changer because you won't need anymore to sacrifice too much AF performance or stabilization to benefit from a still only slightly larger but now significantly higher res sensor.

If hasselblad doesn't announce anything interesting by spring 2019, I may just decided to sell my H system and go the Fuji route for landscape.

Just my 2 cent obviously.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: shadowblade on September 27, 2018, 07:51:13 pm
Good. Well done you. You made the perfect decision. For you. Now - do us all a favour and dont tell us about it any more, eh?

No.

Give me one use case scenario - apart from the size-focused hobbyist who doesn't care about AF and can live with a single slow lens - where the Z7 will serve you better as a primary camera than either a D850 or an A7r3.

At best, its an accessory camera for Nikon SLR users - a fun toy for situations where you don't need the full capabilities of the SLR, or for shooting video. It can't replace an SLR for all the tasks expected of an SLR - if you were using the SLR for its AF capability or dual slots, you're still going to need to keep it. If you weren't using these capabilities, you probably didn't need the SLR in the first place and were mainly using it for lack of other full-frame options. But that only represents a subset of SLR users and in no way makes the Z7 a replacement for the D850 - it has some of the D850's capabilities and may be sufficient for some users, but is unable to take the D850's place within Nikon's lineup and fill the same roles for the same photographers.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 27, 2018, 08:13:39 pm
...but is unable to take the D850's place within Nikon's lineup and fill the same roles for the same photographers.

Would you mind confirming whether you also try to convince the people around you that their choice of car is wrong, their choice of TV is wrong, perhaps their choice of hustand/wife is wrong?  ;D

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: chez on September 27, 2018, 08:14:37 pm
No.

Give me one use case scenario - apart from the size-focused hobbyist who doesn't care about AF and can live with a single slow lens - where the Z7 will serve you better as a primary camera than either a D850 or an A7r3.

At best, its an accessory camera for Nikon SLR users - a fun toy for situations where you don't need the full capabilities of the SLR, or for shooting video. It can't replace an SLR for all the tasks expected of an SLR - if you were using the SLR for its AF capability or dual slots, you're still going to need to keep it. If you weren't using these capabilities, you probably didn't need the SLR in the first place and were mainly using it for lack of other full-frame options. But that only represents a subset of SLR users and in no way makes the Z7 a replacement for the D850 - it has some of the D850's capabilities and may be sufficient for some users, but is unable to take the D850's place within Nikon's lineup and fill the same roles for the same photographers.

One quick question. Why does the Z7 need to replace the 850? I currently have 5 different camera systems including medium and large format film, and none can replace the other. If you are looking for 1 camera that does it all the best....well keep looking.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BJL on September 27, 2018, 08:40:42 pm
Give me one use case scenario - apart from the size-focused hobbyist who doesn't care about AF ...
There is a huge gap between "doesn't put high priority on having industry-leading AF performance" and "doesn't care about AF", especially with cameras clearly oriented to high detail more than high speed action.

... and can live with a single slow lens ...
I also recommend dropping this assumption that existing Nikon F-mount (or Canon EF-mount for R bodies) are of little or no value, so that the new systems can be evaluated solely on the basis of their initial native lens systems.  (Whatever happened to all the touting of the advantage of being able to use Canon lenses on Sony E-mount bodies?)  And when the adaptor-mounted lenses (and the adaptor) are from the same maker as the camera, some extra information sharing has the potential to make those adapted lenses work better than ones from another maker (e.g. Canon) that has no interest in helping the camera maker (e.g. Sony) get the best out of those lenses.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: shadowblade on September 27, 2018, 08:50:07 pm
Shadowblade,

I don't want to sound alarming, but I think I may be detecting in you some early sign a slight Sony fanboyism, possibly aggravated by an irrational hatred with anything with a Nikon logo on it?  ;D

One point you may want to think about... when one provides you with a list of points, they may be connected by an "AND", not by an "OR". This should IMHO make you consider to re-assess the relevance of providing isolated answers to each point but instead think of the situation holistically?

I can point you to the remarkable books of Ken Wilber in case you are interested in the value of an holistic approach btw. Because I have no shame to admit that I am a Ken Wilber fanboy. ;)

And, as a final comment, I don't think I ever dared to provide you with advice on what you should be doing in terms of camera choice. I think it would be stupid to do so.

Cheers,
Bernard

Personally, I prefer the Canon SLR system in terms of functionality. Just that they fell behind in the sensor game, having not released a sensor with both high resolution and good low-ISO performance, hence the move to Sony.

If that is an 'AND' list, it represents an extremely narrow use-case scenario and doesn't represent a large user base. If it's an 'OR' list, each individual point is equally or better served by another existing camera.

I'm not advising anyone on individual camera choice. I speak in terms of general capabilities only - in this case, specifically, its ability to replace an SLR as the primary/only camera in a kit, or to replace the D850 in Nikon's camera lineup. Obviously, there are use case scenarios on the individual level for just about anything. In this case, those scenarios just happen to be much narrower than for either the D850 or A7r3.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: shadowblade on September 27, 2018, 08:57:28 pm
Would you mind confirming whether you also try to convince the people around you that their choice of car is wrong, their choice of TV is wrong, perhaps their choice of hustand/wife is wrong?  ;D

Cheers,
Bernard

See above. I speak in general terms only. You can use whatever you want. Get a lens cap and drill a pinhole in it if you want small size over everything else.

Also, what happened to Nikon having 'class leading' AF and special algorithms that translate to mirrorless? By all accounts, the Nikon bodies have the worst AF out of the big three.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: shadowblade on September 27, 2018, 09:15:50 pm
One quick question. Why does the Z7 need to replace the 850? I currently have 5 different camera systems including medium and large format film, and none can replace the other. If you are looking for 1 camera that does it all the best....well keep looking.

If the D850 can do almost everything the Z7 can, and more, what's the point of the Z7, apart from being small? If you're going to share lenses between the two systems, it's no longer even small. If you're not going to share lenses, why not the higher-performing A7r3 over the Z7?

It's not like the A7r vs Canon scenario a few years ago, when the Sony offered a >50% increase in megapixels and much better base ISO image quality compared to the 5D3. In this case, there is very little in still photography that the Z7 does better than the D850, and plenty that the D850 does much better at.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: gkroeger on September 27, 2018, 10:07:46 pm
Good. Well done you. You made the perfect decision. For you. Now - do us all a favour and dont tell us about it any more, eh?

Ditto.  You (shadowblade) don't like the Z7 (although you haven't used one), but this thread is about Nikon's mirrorless system and some of us are interested and would like the discussion to focus on that system and not every alternative system you prefer.

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: chez on September 27, 2018, 10:22:12 pm
If the D850 can do almost everything the Z7 can, and more, what's the point of the Z7, apart from being small? If you're going to share lenses between the two systems, it's no longer even small. If you're not going to share lenses, why not the higher-performing A7r3 over the Z7?

It's not like the A7r vs Canon scenario a few years ago, when the Sony offered a >50% increase in megapixels and much better base ISO image quality compared to the 5D3. In this case, there is very little in still photography that the Z7 does better than the D850, and plenty that the D850 does much better at.

Well one huge benefit of mirrorless for me is smaller size and weight. I'd never take the 850 on a month long trip through SEA...but the Z7....yeh man.

If that is not important for you...then just use the big DSLR's...what's your beef?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on September 28, 2018, 12:03:02 am
I have been shooting mirrorless exclusively for two years, FF and APSC, four different bodies. I have a few reservations about the information regarding the new Nikon mirrorless performance. Particularly regarding the comparisons with the 850.

First off what lenses are used for the comparisons. If it’s the same lens then that skews the results in favor of whatever camera the lens is native to. If it’s native lenses then we are perhaps comparing lens focus performance rather than camera focus performance. Do the lenses at least have the same maximum apertures?

Second how is the mirrorless set up. Most recent converts to mirrorless fall in love with the wsyiwyg viewfinder setting for exposure. This severely hobbles the auto focus performance unless maximum aperture is selected. All the mirrorless shooters I know end up using this feature only when auto focus performance is unimportant.

Nikon know how to make cameras and auto focus systems. Call me skeptical about these reviews that are critical of Nikon mirrorless performance in this regard. If it’s just based on a “feeling” the reviewer has then it’s not worth much imho.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on September 28, 2018, 01:16:58 am
No.


Your choice of course. But i find your aggressive tone and endless belittling of others tiresome, so I'll be using the excellent "block" feature of the forum  As Stalin said - everyone has the right to be stupid, but some abuse that right.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: shadowblade on September 28, 2018, 02:01:33 am
Your choice of course. But i find your aggressive tone and endless belittling of others tiresome, so I'll be using the excellent "block" feature of the forum  As Stalin said - everyone has the right to be stupid, but some abuse that right.

Please point out one single instance of a personal attack.

An attack on an argument is not the same as a personal attack.

As far as I've seen, you (and other proponents of the Z7) have barely even attempted to defend the Z7 on its merits or to point out any advantages it has over other systems, with the sole exception of size, and have instead chosen to ignore any shortcomings of the system while attacking the credibility, rather than the arguments, of its detractors.

This sudden fixation on small size - when, for years, the very same users have focused on the image quality of the D800, D810 and D850, and the AF performance of the D4 and D5 - suggests a cart-before-the-horse situation, where the objective is to find something the system is good at and promote that as why it's the new, perfect system, rather than having any single photographic objective and pointing out logically why the new system (or any other system) is better/worse for that application than any other potential competitor. It creates an impression of blind product/brand worship rather than any logical analysis of its advantages and shortcomings. And the size argument is so 2010. Back then, size was the only selling point that mirrorless could claim. Now, with mirrorless cameras being an established product, for a product to only be able to claim small size as their main advantage over another system (e.g. Nikon SLR) that can otherwise do the same job as well (in some applications) or better (in others) is a very poor showing indeed.  A new mirrorless camera should be able to claim some sort of performance advantage for still photography over an older SLR, other than just being smaller and lighter. The way it looks, though, the Z7 is just a cut-down D850 with less size, less weight, less performance and a jacked-up price tag.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 28, 2018, 02:46:12 am
Shadowblade,

This information has been proposed tens of time in this thread. It is really up to you to try to comprehend it or not.

But I think none of us are wealthy enough to buy a camera that would have no value for us just because we are Nikon fanboys.

Hopefully you can do a bit of thinking on this?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: shadowblade on September 28, 2018, 03:03:24 am
Shadowblade,

This information has been proposed tens of time in this thread. It is really up to you to try to comprehend it or not.

But I think none of us are wealthy enough to buy a camera that would have no value for us just because we are Nikon fanboys.

Hopefully you can do a bit of thinking on this?

Cheers,
Bernard

So explain why, for so many years, Sony and other mirrorless cameras were too small to use, while the D810's large size was not an issue and the AF performance of Nikon's SLRs was an ultimate trump card that couldn't be traded away, but now, when Nikon releases an equally-small camera that lacks the performance (AF and otherwise) of the SLRs, small size is suddenly paramount, while AF and other aspects of performance no longer matter so much? There's no consistent logic behind the argument, other than the argument of the day being consistently behind the strengths of Nikon's latest product.

Don't get me wrong - small size is a good thing, all else being equal. But the Z7 is not the equal of the D850, and I'd never trade performance characteristics for small size alone. If it's trading one performance factor for another (e.g. AF on Canon SLRs vs a much better sensor on the first-generation A7r) it's a different matter entirely.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 28, 2018, 03:10:42 am
Don't get me wrong - small size is a good thing, all else being equal. But the Z7 is not the equal of the D850, and I'd never trade performance characteristics for small size alone. If it's trading one performance factor for another (e.g. AF on Canon SLRs vs a much better sensor on the first-generation A7r) it's a different matter entirely.

I sometimes wonder if you actually take photographs... if you did the answers to these questions should be pretty obvious.

I'll just give you one hint: from a specification point of view, the Z7 is overall superior to the D850 for landscape work, especially for existing F mount users
And another one: photographers photograph different types of subjects.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: kers on September 28, 2018, 05:35:55 am
Nikon and Canon will be facing tremendous competition.
This photokina has brought more new cameras and lenses in the FF and MF sector than ever.
Even Zeiss and Zenit enter the competition.
The Zeiss camera is the most interesting and daring one- : android- built in 512Gb of storage- no cards- built in Lightroom, wifi , bluetooth & usb-c connectivity- a homemade lens and sensor
I am sure that is the way more cameras will go ; kudos to Zeiss.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on September 28, 2018, 07:03:01 am
The Zeiss camera is the most interesting and daring one- : android- built in 512Gb of storage- no cards- built in Lightroom, wifi , bluetooth & usb-c connectivity- a homemade lens and sensor
I am sure that is the way more cameras will go ; kudos to Zeiss.

Yes that is pretty cool. If only you could make phone calls on it :-)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on September 28, 2018, 09:12:51 am
I wonder how can you edit your photos on that small screen and if the screen is calibrated. I think it's waste of resources. The setup it's just not convenient for editing on the go.

If they really wanted something they could have approached the WD SSD way, make the shots available wireless for editing on an iPad, that could work if you have the battery for it.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Riverman on September 28, 2018, 10:45:20 am
If one orders a Z7 from BH Photo today, will they receive it before the year has ended?  The problem is that for many of us these products aren't really available. Look at the D850. 
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on September 28, 2018, 10:49:31 am
If one orders a Z7 from BH Photo today, will they receive it before the year has ended?  The problem is that for many of us these products aren't really available. Look at the D850.

I imagine so. The first batch are now being distributed here (London) and the shops seem to have received good supplies.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on September 28, 2018, 10:51:24 am
As someone who shoots landscapes and portraits, I'm now looking with interest at the new Fujifilm GFX 50R. Seems to be priced at about the same as a Nikon Z7. The issue of lenses matters and I'm quite invested in Nikon, but otherwise ...

The 50R with the 32-64 is likely very close weight wise to what you are using right now for walk around, less zoom though. The GFX lenses are not more expensive the pro Nikons. Now, the difference in IQ is likely not that big.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on September 28, 2018, 10:56:44 am
If one orders a Z7 from BH Photo today, will they receive it before the year has ended?  The problem is that for many of us these products aren't really available. Look at the D850.

D850 is still not in stock at many major stores, 1.5 years! since launch. I wanted to buy one last January for my Iceland trip. Now with all these new toys announced I’ll wait.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: chez on September 28, 2018, 11:13:40 am
I wonder how can you edit your photos on that small screen and if the screen is calibrated. I think it's waste of resources. The setup it's just not convenient for editing on the go.

If they really wanted something they could have approached the WD SSD way, make the shots available wireless for editing on an iPad, that could work if you have the battery for it.

The herds of photographers today edit their images on their phones and send directly to the net...Zeiss is just trying to duplicate this in a more conventional camera than the phone.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on September 28, 2018, 11:29:42 am
I wonder how can you edit your photos on that small screen and if the screen is calibrated...l

Today’s phones have screens that are better calibrated than what 99% of photographers have at home. Furthermore, 99% of people seeing our photos will do it on their phones, if not today, then tomorrow.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: faberryman on September 28, 2018, 11:48:47 am
I imagine so. The first batch are now being distributed here (London) and the shops seem to have received good supplies.
Are the lenses and adapters available as well? I read one report that the 50mm f/1.8 lens has been delayed to December.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on September 28, 2018, 11:48:57 am
True, for some. I would rather do the editing on the phone directly though or even better on a larger screen tablet, with phone specific apps. As I said above, the picture could still remain on the camera hard drive and only the associated catalog would change.

I recall trying to edit in LR on smaller screen laptops (with lower resolution, HD only) and it was not fun. Not too mention it was not that fast either. In the end I was mostly selcting/deleting the obvious failures and doing few basic adjustments.
Time will tell if this one will catch up.

PS. Is the screen bent? It looks like it follows the grip, not too mention your thumb will likely rest on it, unless the camera is bigger than what I think
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on September 28, 2018, 12:23:14 pm
While there (admittedly) aren't many of them, the initial lenses have exceptional MTF charts for their size and weight (they are that elusive creature known as a great lens that isn't super-fast). The 24-70 outscores any other normal zoom I am aware of (I'm not sure about some oddities like Leica R lenses and I know nothing about cine lenses) - it's slightly better than the best (much bigger and heavier) 24-70 f2.8 lenses, and pulls away more significantly from the f4 and variable aperture crowd. The 50 mm f1.8 is bigger and somewhat heavier than the double Gauss 50mm lenses that are basically film era designs, but it outperforms them by a huge margin (example: any other Nikon 50mm). It is MUCH smaller and lighter than the more complex "super 50" designs like the Sigma ART and the Otus, although it is slower - and it seems to perform comparably to those designs.

Initial shooting reports seem to indicate that the lenses may live up to their MTF charts - and that's one reason why I'm excited about the Z7. Nikon looks like the one for me, although I'm going to give everybody a good look at PhotoPlus.

I love Fuji (have shot their APS-C system for years - a Z7 could give me an extra stop plus of DR, ISO 64 and twice the pixels in the same size and weight) , and will give the GFX 50R a close look, but I think the weight of the glass and the lack of IS will be a problem on long hikes. If the GFX 100 were the size and weight of the 50R??? Especially if they had a few more compact lenses???

I don't trust Sony's weather sealing for what I do - having carried a camera on the outside of my pack for 450 miles on the Pacific Crest Trail last year (and with no plans to stop photographing that way), I won't take less than the best in that department. I also don't like the fact that Sony's compact lenses tend to be mediocre (with some exceptions) and Sony's great lenses tend to be big (and fast)...

Canon's sensor doesn't give me enough over my APS-C Fujis - similar DR and 6 million extra pixels aren't enough to trigger an expensive addition to my system, plus they seem to have a similar initial lens philosophy to Sony  - great fast lenses if you're willing to pay in cost, size and weight, plus average to above average compact, slower lenses.

The Panasonic mockups (and I consider a supposedly functional camera nobody is allowed to turn on to be a mockup) are much bigger and heavier than their competitors.

These are strictly my priorities - there are reasons to like each of these systems...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: faberryman on September 28, 2018, 12:54:09 pm
I love Fuji (have shot their APS-C system for years - a Z7 could give me an extra stop plus of DR, ISO 64 and twice the pixels in the same size and weight)
I don't know how to insert an image, but here is a link to a size comparison to the Fuji XT3 with 35mm f/2.0 and the Nikon Z7 with 50mm f/1.8

http://j.mp/2zChRWX
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on September 28, 2018, 03:04:18 pm
You might want to look at these too:

http://j.mp/2zCGUck

http://j.mp/2zD2vRX

Less clear cut.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on September 28, 2018, 03:13:59 pm
I am aware of how small the Fuji f2.0 primes are - as Armand says, the differences decrease when you're using zooms.

 I always use zooms to avoid changing lenses frequently on the trail, and that makes it closer. Another thing to consider is that in order to have any image stabilization at all (which I consider essential on the trail - tripods are darned heavy), you aren't taking advantage of the weight reduction of both the X-T2 and a prime lens - that combination is unstabilized unless the prime is the large, heavy 80mm Macro or the upcoming huge, heavy 200mm f2.0 - not Fuji's fault, 200mm f2 lenses are heavy due to physics! You either have to use a zoom or the X-H1 body to gain stabilization. Some of the primes are also non weather sealed - that varies by the lens.

 The Z7 body is comparable to the X-H1 in size and weight comparing stabilized bodies (the Nikon is actually slightly lighter when you consider that it contains the equivalent of two Fuji batteries, and, while its CIPA reports are disappointing, real world tests are seeming to show that it gets 1.5 to 2 Fuji batteries worth of performance) The Nikkor 24-70 falls in between two Fuji normal zooms in size - there is the little 18-55 f2.8-4 , which is a great little lens (best kit lens on the market for years), but it isn't as good as initial reports show the Nikkor 24-70 will be. The other option is the 16-55 f2.8, which is a fantastic lens (probably comparable to the Nikkor), but significantly heavier than the Nikkor (and it's Fuji's one and only unstabilized zoom - why did they do that?).  It requires the X-H1 for stabilization... The Nikkor 14-30 will probably be comparable to the Fuji 10-24 in size and weight.

You can get a wide variety of results out of camerasize, depending on exactly what you choose for options. Those tiny Fuji primes on the smaller bodies (and, even more so, a small Micro 4/3 body  with a pancake) allow for some very small systems. For a weather sealed kit with top-quality normal and (admittedly upcoming for Nikon) wide zooms and stabilization in either the body or lens, the differences are minimal.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Telecaster on September 28, 2018, 03:52:51 pm
I wonder how can you edit your photos on that small screen and if the screen is calibrated. I think it's waste of resources. The setup it's just not convenient for editing on the go.

If they really wanted something they could have approached the WD SSD way, make the shots available wireless for editing on an iPad, that could work if you have the battery for it.

Folks edit photos on their "phones" all the time. That kind of use is what the Zeiss camera's editing features are intended for. But if I understand it right you'll also be able to pass on your edits from the camera's Lightroom to Lightroom on your tablet or desktop/laptop. Lightroom Mobile can already do this. So…quick & easy edits for social media sharing plus the ability to refine those edits later on for other purposes.

-Dave-
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on September 28, 2018, 04:25:42 pm
Can you share directly from the camera? If you still need a phone than I don't see the point but maybe I'm behind times.

If I can't wait until I get to a computer I usually just take a shot with the phone or rarely I send it to the phone from the camera where I might perform some basic editing before sharing. The only reason to do this in camera would be if the color profiles cannot be simulated otherwise (such as the Fuji colors).
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: hogloff on September 28, 2018, 08:21:22 pm
Can you share directly from the camera? If you still need a phone than I don't see the point but maybe I'm behind times.

If I can't wait until I get to a computer I usually just take a shot with the phone or rarely I send it to the phone from the camera where I might perform some basic editing before sharing. The only reason to do this in camera would be if the color profiles cannot be simulated otherwise (such as the Fuji colors).

When I travel for extended times, I like to keep family and friends up to date on my travels and always send pics. Right now I transfer from the camera to my phone, do some edits and then send out. It would be great to be able to skip and phone and just edit / send from the camera.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: SrMi on September 28, 2018, 10:55:20 pm
Are the lenses and adapters available as well? I read one report that the 50mm f/1.8 lens has been delayed to December.

Z7 with 24-70, FTZ adapter, 35/1.8 are all available. Need to look for them, though (e.g., Best Buy). 50/1.8 is scheduled for the end of October.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 29, 2018, 12:01:05 am
Z7 with 24-70, FTZ adapter, 35/1.8 are all available. Need to look for them, though (e.g., Best Buy). 50/1.8 is scheduled for the end of October.

The 50mm f1.8 Z is now announced on Nikon image page in Japan to become available mid December.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Kirk_C on September 29, 2018, 12:56:10 am
Can you share directly from the camera? If you still need a phone than I don't see the point but maybe I'm behind times.

Quoting Zeiss:

"The ZX1 features Wi-Fi network connectivity (in addition to Bluetooth and USB-C data transfer), allowing photographers to upload photos directly to the Web without having to first transfer images to other devices or programs"

There are a number of ways that this could be done. The camera may have an FTP client, a Drobpox type app or a simplified web browser that allows you to use WebDav or access a CMS like Cpanel. Or just simply access your Instagram account via browser. Then maybe it's just LR allows you to create a web gallery and upload it to a web server.

However they intend to facilitate it there will have to be a Wi-Fi available but you could use your smartphone as a Wi-Fi hot spot if you're off in the wild and have a cell signal.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: D Fuller on September 29, 2018, 10:49:38 am
Very interesting hands-on review by Ming Thein:
https://blog.mingthein.com/2018/09/29/2018-nikon-z7-24-70-review/

“On an absolute scale, what we have here is not revolution but thorough evolution – much as the D3 was in its day. And as the D3, this represents a massive quantum leap of innovation for conservative Nikon; though the Z7 isn’t the second coming of sliced Jesus there are enough solid improvements over the D850, and not too many compromises (some of which are firmware-fixable). For a first try, it’s remarkable effort. Put another way: I don’t care what the fanboys say, but we’re now on the third generation of Sony A7 (fourth, if you count the A9) and they still don’t operate as smoothly.

If you’re not bothered by the D850’s size and weight, or need stabilization in lenses that don’t have it, or shoot video, or use a lot of manual focus – then you can skip this generation. But if any of those things apply to you for any meaningful portion of the time, you’re likely to find the Z7 is a worthwhile addition. Just remember that there are some differences in control paradigm, with heavier reliance on customizable menus and far fewer customizable buttons. Don’t get me wrong, though: Nikon has managed something impressive: a mirrorless device retaining all of the advantages of mirrorless, but still feeling and operating with the immediacy of a good DSLR. MT”
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on September 29, 2018, 11:18:18 am
Very interesting hands-on review.
https://blog.mingthein.com/2018/09/29/2018-nikon-z7-24-70-review/

Funny! I opened this to post the same link.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on September 29, 2018, 11:31:29 am
What I find slightly concerning is his comment in regards to the color not being as “good” as that is be one of the things going for the D850, at least for me.

Focus not being as good as a D850 is fine, I think a Fuji X-T2 level is already good enough for anything but very fast moving targets; to be honest I still use AF-S for most. For me this Z7 would give about 1.5 extra stops of DR, IBIS and a small WR zoom (if only Fuji had that 16-80 WR out). I probably don’t need the extra resolution or high ISO that much.

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: gkroeger on September 29, 2018, 12:00:35 pm
What I find slightly concerning is his comment in regards to the color not being as “good” as that is be one of the things going for the D850, at least for me.

If I read his post correctly, he is using ACR and raw... so the color is being created by ACR, not the camera (which is always the case in raw). It seems likely that the CFA might not be exactly the same as the D850, and that Adobe hasn't built the ideal profile for the Z7 yet. Of course some folks don't think Adobe every builds ideal profiles). I am always struck by the reviewers that go on and on about each companies "color science" and then shoot raw? Seems like there needs to be a better way for companies to supply end users with LR and ACR profiles. Adobe is the gatekeeper in many cases, and their process is far from transparent.

MT is as good a reviewer as they come, and his thoughts and observations are some of the first that I trust.

Glenn
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on September 29, 2018, 01:23:24 pm
Well, so far so good for the camera. Just one outing but very happy.

What I forgot was what a royal pain in the bum Capture NX is. I hope CaptureOne come out with an update soon that handles the new NEF files!!
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: D Fuller on September 29, 2018, 03:57:53 pm
What I find slightly concerning is his comment in regards to the color not being as “good” as that is be one of the things going for the D850, at least for me.


I don’t think he said that. He said “Note that color response is typically Nikon, i.e. not that accurate; and way behind Hasselblad-neutral. Early testing suggests this is not quite the same as the D850, either. It has a partially exponential tonal response curve – the default rendering is towards darker midtones, which must be lifted in post.”

He also said the jpeg engine is better than the 850’s, but behind Oly, who he considers the industry leader.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 29, 2018, 06:00:58 pm
So far my findings match his.

In short, the Z7 is pretty much a smaller/lighter D850 with the advantages of the EVF + IBIS without the downsides in terms of experience.

I am really at a loss as to why any objective reviewer wouldn't come away mostly impressed by the camera and lenses.

There are some small annoyances as mentioned by Ming (AF modes is the main one I guess) but they haven't come in the way of capturing the images I wanted so far.

Anyway, I am happy so far.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Mike Dale on September 29, 2018, 07:11:32 pm
I used to have the Sony A7RIII as my lightweight camera as a backup to my D850. As Bernard says the Z7 is a smaller lighter D850. I suspect the AF will not be as good as the D850 but as it’s  predominantly going to be my landscape and hiking camera that’s not an issue for me. Having come up through the A7R,A7RII and A7RIII I’m pretty familiar with the pros and cons of EVF v OVF. I cannot believe how good the EVF on the Z7 is, it really is amazing.

I bought the 35 f/1.8 and it’s sharp edge to edge. Not too big, not too heavy, construction seems to be absolutely fine.

I’ve tried the Z7 with my Sigma 135 f/1.8 and I think the AF is better than the D850, I tried it with my Sigma 150-600 Sport and it’s perfectly adequate but not as good as the D850.

I’ve used the FTZ adapter and my Zeiss Distagon 15mm works as expected with the focus peaking being very helpful. The 300mm f/4 PF is a nice size combined with the Z7, AF seems about the same as the D850 using a single point. I haven’t tried the other AF modes as yet.

The main advantages this camera brings for me is that I don’t have to carry 2 sets of lenses and the controls are sufficiently similar that I’m not reaching for the wrong button. The menu structure is very, very familiar too which helps enormously.

I’m happy. Need Capture One Raw capability now.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: cgarnerhome on September 29, 2018, 08:03:14 pm
I had the opportunity to do some preliminary testing and I'm very pleased.  I'm also a landscape photographer so the focusing is not an issue.  The only slight nits so far are the grip is not that comfortable (particularly compared to the 850) and the lens hood is cheap.   I love the size of the Z7 with the 24-70.  Great compact package.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on September 30, 2018, 11:30:06 am
You guys don't make this easy! I placed a preorder on the Z7 with the 24-70 and the adapter, I'll probably have at least a couple of weeks to cancel it if I change my mind. Rationally it's difficult to justify, even if I say it's instead a D850 which I planned to get in the past. The problem is that I have 3 well stocked systems, I'm trying to narrow it down unsuccessfully for several years but I'm going in the opposite direction.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on September 30, 2018, 02:53:10 pm
http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#FujiFilm%20X-T2,FujiFilm%20X-T3,Nikon%20D750,Nikon%20D850,Nikon%20Z%207

I find it interesting that besides ISO 64 my D750 has better DR than D850 or Z7 and that the Fuji X-T has practically the same DR once you go above ISO 800.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on September 30, 2018, 03:26:57 pm
Nikon's big DR advantage is at low ISOs - by the time you reach even 200 or so indicated, the DR is quite close to a Fuji also set at 200 (remembering that, because of how Nikon and Fuji report ISO, there is about a 2/3 of a stop difference - Fuji at 200 demands about the same amount of light as Nikon at 125, or conversely, a Nikon set to 200 would require a Fuji at 320 to get the same exposure).

Nikon at 64 - no match from Fuji - 1.6 stops extra compared to Fuji at 200 (but requires more light than any setting on a Fuji except the L setting that actually reduces DR)

Nikon at 125 - Fuji at 200 (very similar actual exposures) - close to 1 stop extra DR from Nikon

Nikon at 200 - Fuji at 320 (again, similar actual exposures) - close to 1 stop extra DR from Nikon

BUT Nikon at 200 - Fuji at 200 (not quite comparable exposures) - only 0.16 stop extra DR from Nikon
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on September 30, 2018, 08:56:11 pm
https://www.dpreview.com/news/8631972840/nikon-z7-added-to-studio-comparison-scene

Pretty impressed by the Z7 at 64 ISO. Great compromise between sharpness and lack of aberrations.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BJL on September 30, 2018, 09:55:07 pm
(remembering that, because of how Nikon and Fuji report ISO, there is about a 2/3 of a stop difference - Fuji at 200 demands about the same amount of light as Nikon at 125, or conversely, a Nikon set to 200 would require a Fuji at 320 to get the same exposure).
This is somewhat confused by DXO's confusing mis-use of the name "ISO" to measure raw-file highlight headroom. I am fairly sure that at the same ISO speed and using standard center-weighted metering, Nikon and Fujifilm cameras will choose (in AE mode) or recommend (in manual mode) close to the same shutter speed/aperture combinations, because the in-camera light meters have to meet industry and ISO standards. The differences come next, in how much analog gain is then applied to the sensor output in producing raw output: Fujifilm applies less than Nikon at a given ISO setting (giving more raw headroom) and then balances this by amplifying more in the digital domain in default raw-to-JPEG conversions. DXO looks at raw output and describes this as a lower ISO speed, but it is just choosing a different mic of analog and digital gain at given ISO setting, not a change in the light-metering or exposure levels chosen. That choice is something that the ISO standard leaves to the choice of camera makers except recommending a minimum amount of highlight headroom in raw files (and thus effectively a maximum recommended amount of analog gain at a given ISO setting), which DXO misreads as a mandatory fixed amount of highlight headroom and analog gain.

As an extreme case, a perfectly "ISO-less" sensor with no read noise at all would best use with the same analog gain at all settings, sending full wells to maximum raw level or just below, which would minimize risk of highlight clipping due to over-amplification—then DXO would absurdly report that camera as having the same ISO speed regardless of ISO setting!
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Kevin Raber on September 30, 2018, 09:55:25 pm
For the first time in a long time, I own a Nikon again.  I purchased for review and testing the Z7 as I mentioned in previous articles and picked it up on Friday.  It's taking some getting used to as far as handling as does any new camera.  Over the next few weeks, I will be trying this camera out and see how it performs.  Michael Durr will also try out the video features and I'll have a report on the site about my experiences.  I also purchased the adapter and will borrow some of the regular mount glass to see how the camera performs. 

I also received the XT-3 which I'll also be working with.  That seems to be a very nice camera.

I am still recovering from hip replacement surgery less than two weeks ago but I am getting my energy back and in two weeks I should be able to drive myself around again instead of relying on others.  So bear with me as I come to full steam.

Fun times as far as gear goes. 
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on September 30, 2018, 10:03:00 pm
https://www.dpreview.com/news/8631972840/nikon-z7-added-to-studio-comparison-scene

Pretty impressed by the Z7 at 64 ISO. Great compromise between sharpness and lack of aberrations.

Cheers,
Bernard

I don't know, I just took a quick peak and the D850 shots are clearly sharper/ have better contrast. I don't know if it's a focus problem (that would be bad is the mirrorless has less accurate autofocus than the DSLR), a different less sharp lens or the adobe raw. I only looked at the iso64 setting. On the positive note it looks similar or slightly better than A7R iii at iso100.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: gkroeger on October 01, 2018, 12:12:41 am
I don't know, I just took a quick peak and the D850 shots are clearly sharper/ have better contrast. I don't know if it's a focus problem (that would be bad is the mirrorless has less accurate autofocus than the DSLR), a different less sharp lens or the adobe raw. I only looked at the iso64 setting. On the positive note it looks similar or slightly better than A7R iii at iso100.

I noticed this too, but barring an antialiasing filter, slight focus error or sharpening settings in ACR, I couldn't imagine how the sensor could generate softness?  And I can't believe they use autofocus on this type of test.

I was a bit concerned that their "comparison tool" in the browser might be displaying the results with some browser interference. So I downloaded the Z7 and D850 ISO 64 jpeg images and compared them in Photoshop at 1:1 and I can't see any systematic differences between the images. They are virtually identical, although I can pick spots where one might seem ever-so-slightly better there is no advantage to one or the other. Even the moire patterns in some of the etchings is identical.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 01, 2018, 06:12:12 am
I noticed this too, but barring an antialiasing filter, slight focus error or sharpening settings in ACR, I couldn't imagine how the sensor could generate softness?  And I can't believe they use autofocus on this type of test.

I was a bit concerned that their "comparison tool" in the browser might be displaying the results with some browser interference. So I downloaded the Z7 and D850 ISO 64 jpeg images and compared them in Photoshop at 1:1 and I can't see any systematic differences between the images. They are virtually identical, although I can pick spots where one might seem ever-so-slightly better there is no advantage to one or the other. Even the moire patterns in some of the etchings is identical.

Thank you! I'm not sure how a browser could interfere but it's good news. With the D850 experience in mind I was expecting the camera in months from now but it looks I'll get it before next week, without the adapter though. I'll see how I can handle the 24-70 range, the reason I didn't update my original Sony RX100.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Kirk_C on October 01, 2018, 12:57:17 pm
I'm sure DPR's latest headline will displease some.

Banding means Nikon Z7 cant match D850 dynamic range. (https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-z7-first-impressions-review/7)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: 32BT on October 01, 2018, 01:32:10 pm
I'm sure DPR's latest headline will displease some.

Banding means Nikon Z7 cant match D850 dynamic range. (https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-z7-first-impressions-review/7)

Because we've seen this problem before, the question really is this: can it be compensated for in RAW conversion and is it therefor actually a RAW converter problem?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: John Camp on October 01, 2018, 02:11:15 pm
To tell the truth, it seems that you only get banding when you force it to get banding. And the banding is so slight that you have to search for it, and even then, it's not all that obvious. Just my opinion.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: gkroeger on October 01, 2018, 02:12:00 pm
Not sure I think this is a "problem" any more than with the Sony A7III. I think of it as a limitation. All technologies have limitations; film had many. What I see in the images on DPR is that if you dig deep enough in the shadows in certain conditions, aimed at finding this limitation, you can find it... barely visible when pixel peeping. I will accept the limitation and enjoy the PDAF.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 01, 2018, 02:56:20 pm
https://photographylife.com/nikon-z7-first-impressions-and-sample-photos

Did any of you notice the high vignetting and "huge" drop off sharpness in the corners that it's mentioned in the above first take?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 01, 2018, 03:34:26 pm
I have used the 35mm f1.8 more so far, will need to double check the images shot with the 24-70 f4, but I haven’t noticed anything obvious in terms of drop of sharpness in the far corners.

This review is overall super positive.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: SrMi on October 02, 2018, 01:17:47 am
Great camera, great lens (24-70 S). Did not see any issues in corners when using test charts ... on contrary. Few primes are as good.

Tested also Z1 with 90mm Tamron Macro vs a7rIII with Sony 90mm Macro, AF-C mode, f.2.8, low light. Similar focusing speed, except that Sony occasionally starts oscillating.

The camera is very quick and switches quickly between record and play. This may be trivial for people used to DSLR, but not to those who are using mirrorless cameras.

Great ergonomics, almost as good as D850 :-).
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on October 02, 2018, 01:30:59 am
https://photographylife.com/nikon-z7-first-impressions-and-sample-photos

Did any of you notice the high vignetting and "huge" drop off sharpness in the corners that it's mentioned in the above first take?

No I didn't, but I didn't look for it.

The Arca-Swiss incompatibility with the FTZ thing is potentially annoying. I guess you can use the tripod mount on the FTZ itself.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 02, 2018, 06:33:55 am
I'm sure DPR's latest headline will displease some.

Banding means Nikon Z7 cant match D850 dynamic range. (https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-z7-first-impressions-review/7)

It is not ideal, I really wanted a D850 sensor in that Z7 body. Interestingly at ISO 100 is less obvious that at ISO 64 but there it's behind the A7R iii.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BJL on October 02, 2018, 08:15:48 am
https://photographylife.com/nikon-z7-first-impressions-and-sample-photos

Did any of you notice the high vignetting and "huge" drop off sharpness in the corners that it's mentioned in the above first take?
That reviewer seems to have had a polarising filter on when he saw the vignetting; if so, that’s crazy. (Who tests lens quality with any filter on?!)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 02, 2018, 08:34:56 am
That reviewer seems to have had a polarising filter on when he saw the vignetting; if so, that’s crazy. (Who tests lens quality with any filter on?!)

Interesting, I'll do some tests when I find the time.

I normally use ultra-thin PL filters though, there may be no issue.

I have double checked in Lightroom and I don't see the reported sharpness drop, but I have not photographed flat test charts, so it's hard to tell for sure.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: kers on October 02, 2018, 10:05:51 am
That reviewer seems to have had a polarising filter on when he saw the vignetting; if so, that’s crazy. (Who tests lens quality with any filter on?!)
"The 24-70mm f/4 lens also has a couple flaws, despite its overall impressive image quality.
For one, at f/4, it has very high levels of vignetting across the zoom range, to the degree that I had to double check whether or not I was capturing my polarizing filter in the edges of the photo (I wasn’t)."
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on October 02, 2018, 11:20:11 am
If he had a PL on, I wonder if it was stacked with a UV filter - any 24mm will vignette like crazy with two full-thickness filters. PL filters can also cause vignetting on their own, both due to the thickness of the filter rings and due to the polarizer itself.

     
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Christopher on October 02, 2018, 01:34:10 pm
Didn’t he say already that he didn’t....


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Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BJL on October 02, 2018, 01:53:19 pm
Didn’t he say already that he didn’t....


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He said that the edge of the filter was not the cause, but implies that the filter was on. Polarisation effects can dim parts of the image, so it seems a sloppy procedure. Still, I’m sure we’ll get images of gray cards or such soon enough
Title: Nikon 24-70 f/4 S Imatest
Post by: JohnHeerema on October 02, 2018, 04:24:35 pm
Curiosity got the better of me yesterday, so I did some Imatest testing on the new Nikon 24-70 f/4 S lens, using a large SQR-Plus target. For comparison, I also re-tested my 85mm f/1.4 prime, 70-200 f/4, and 16-35 f/4. I looked at MTF-50.

In my copy, central sharpness of the 24-70 is very good - even a bit better than the 85mm.
It's best at 70mm with a fairly large region of maximum sharpness.
At 70mm, my copy is sharpest right in the middle, so I believe that it was put together more or less correctly.
Sharpness drops off smoothly in all directions, but is dramatically lower in the corners (the corners are all about equal).
Compared to the 85mm f/1.4 at the same aperture, the peak sharpness is slightly better than the 85mm, but the 85mm is much better into the corners (this 85mm f/1.4 is exceptionally good across the entire frame).

At 24mm, some decentering is evident, with maximum sharpness about 20% off to one side of centre.
The peak sharpness is a smaller portion of the frame, and is a bit less sharp than at 70mm.
Corner sharpness drops dramatically.

At 35mm and 50mm, the only other focal lengths at which I tested, the central sharpness is very good - particularly at 50mm.
It's significantly better than my 50mm f/1.4 prime, but that's not a particularly high bar to jump.

Hope this is of some interest to potential purchasers.
This compact lens was one of my biggest drivers for getting the Z7, since I do a lot of backcountry shooting.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Christopher on October 02, 2018, 05:49:27 pm
Doesn’t sound like the amazing MTFs are holding up. I really need tontest that myself, but your description sounds underwhelming.


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Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: kers on October 02, 2018, 06:05:23 pm
I would not expect a compact 24-70 zoom to be perfect wide open, but the corners should be good enough at f8.
24-70mm, is a difficult range to get everything right. The VR 2.8 version has very good coatings and did not disappoint me- more than good enough always.
But now how good is the 50mm and 35mm lens? They should be really good.
Title: Re: Nikon 24-70 f/4 S Imatest
Post by: alan_b on October 02, 2018, 06:26:04 pm
Corner sharpness drops dramatically.

Thanks. 

Did you check field curvature, or focus at center and let corners fall where they may?  What target distance?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: JohnHeerema on October 02, 2018, 06:35:40 pm
The focus was at centre, so the results will be affected by whatever curvature there is in the focal plane.
That's pretty much how it has to be when you use a flat chart (which is pretty much universal).

My chart distance is 55 focal lengths.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: JohnHeerema on October 02, 2018, 06:49:44 pm
If I'd been thinking more clearly, I would have moved a zoomed-in view around the frame to see if I could get better visual sharpness in the corners by focusing on them. Another time.

Nikon's theoretical MTFs are pretty amazing - but they only show MTF 10 and MTF 30. I'm not surprised that MTF 50 doesn't hold out right to the corners, although I confess that I'd hoped that they would hold up better than they do on my copy. 

Still though, it's a very decent lens, and the sharpness around 35-50mm is outstanding.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 02, 2018, 07:48:03 pm
I'm quite conflicted by these findings, I'm very tempted to cancel my order (so far only the adapter shipped). If I get it I want a big step in quality compared to what I have, the positive reviews might be new toy excitement.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: kers on October 02, 2018, 07:59:44 pm
I'm quite conflicted by these findings, I'm very tempted to cancel my order (so far only the adapter shipped). If I get it I want a big step in quality compared to what I have, the positive reviews might be new toy excitement.
Why don't you wait a bit, rent the camera to check it out...
I am sure there are some things that could be better since its their first FF ML.
For one the sensor needs a very short read-out-time  to make it more useful; am not sure were these new ML's stands and there will be tests and reviews all over the place.
I have a d850 and that serves me well...  although i see the benefit of ML in some cases.
 (and still have the lightweight nikon1 that i really like and can combine with all my nikkors)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: SrMi on October 02, 2018, 08:06:45 pm
"The 24-70mm f/4 lens also has a couple flaws, despite its overall impressive image quality.
For one, at f/4, it has very high levels of vignetting across the zoom range, to the degree that I had to double check whether or not I was capturing my polarizing filter in the edges of the photo (I wasn’t)."

The vignetting at f/4 is corrected automatically by Capture NX-D (when converting to TIFF) but is not corrected by Lightroom. Maybe we need to wait for Lightroom update to recognize and correct the lens properly.
Title: Nikon Z7 gripes
Post by: JohnHeerema on October 02, 2018, 11:49:44 pm
The Z7 is pretty good, considering that it's Nikon's first FF mirrorless.
There are a few things that I hope get addressed in a future firmware update though:

One of the really nice things about aperture priority shooting on Nikon DSLRs is that you can modify the shutter speed selected based on 1/focal length, plus or minus a couple stops worth of shutter speed. I use it a lot on my D800e - I bump the shutter speed up for non-stabilized lenses, and lower it for stabilized lenses. On the Z7, I can't put this setting into "My Menu", nor can I assign it to a physical button. So the best I can do is to put it into U1...U3 (speaking of which, I'm sure happy to see the U1..U3 settings, since Nikon's DSLR settings banks are, to put it as politely as I can, not incredibly well thought out).

I'm not the first person to wonder what happened to 3D subject tracking. And why the user interface for subject tracking is so awkward? Also, like almost everyone who's used the Z7, I'd love to see something like Sony's eye tracking.

I was really keen on focus stacking - in fact, it was one of my reasons for getting the Z7. Unfortunately, the user interface for focus stacking is ... awkward. The most annoying thing about it is that the live view goes away while you're setting it up, and there's no way to actually aim the camera before starting the sequence. This makes handheld focus stacks almost impossible (although I tried). This isn't because I don't believe in tripods - I do, and like to use them where possible. But a lot of my shooting is in the backcountry, where every gram counts. I can easily handhold well enough to do half a dozen shots at different focus distances, which is enough depth of field even for the very large canvas prints I make, if combined with stitching. I tried attaching this function to a control ... but I still get taken to the focus stack screen, and so I can't see what I'm trying to focus stack. Too bad - this would be such a simple firmware fix. More sensible control over the focus increments would be really handy too, and would also be easy to calculate in camera (if Nikon folks were interested, I'd be happy to help them out).

Anyway, hope this of value to someone...
Title: Re: Nikon Z7 gripes
Post by: SrMi on October 03, 2018, 01:44:09 am
The Z7 is pretty good, considering that it's Nikon's first FF mirrorless.
There are a few things that I hope get addressed in a future firmware update though:

One of the really nice things about aperture priority shooting on Nikon DSLRs is that you can modify the shutter speed selected based on 1/focal length, plus or minus a couple stops worth of shutter speed. I use it a lot on my D800e - I bump the shutter speed up for non-stabilized lenses, and lower it for stabilized lenses. On the Z7, I can't put this setting into "My Menu", nor can I assign it to a physical button. So the best I can do is to put it into U1...U3 (speaking of which, I'm sure happy to see the U1..U3 settings, since Nikon's DSLR settings banks are, to put it as politely as I can, not incredibly well thought out).

I'm not the first person to wonder what happened to 3D subject tracking. And why the user interface for subject tracking is so awkward? Also, like almost everyone who's used the Z7, I'd love to see something like Sony's eye tracking.

I was really keen on focus stacking - in fact, it was one of my reasons for getting the Z7. Unfortunately, the user interface for focus stacking is ... awkward. The most annoying thing about it is that the live view goes away while you're setting it up, and there's no way to actually aim the camera before starting the sequence. This makes handheld focus stacks almost impossible (although I tried). This isn't because I don't believe in tripods - I do, and like to use them where possible. But a lot of my shooting is in the backcountry, where every gram counts. I can easily handhold well enough to do half a dozen shots at different focus distances, which is enough depth of field even for the very large canvas prints I make, if combined with stitching. I tried attaching this function to a control ... but I still get taken to the focus stack screen, and so I can't see what I'm trying to focus stack. Too bad - this would be such a simple firmware fix. More sensible control over the focus increments would be really handy too, and would also be easy to calculate in camera (if Nikon folks were interested, I'd be happy to help them out).

Anyway, hope this of value to someone...

Good comments. Focus stacking (shift) interface is the same as in D850. Unfortunately, you cannot have separate content in EVF and LCD (an advantage of OVFs).
Would like to have some in-focus notification in AF-C mode (there is in AF-S) and generate a raw file as result of multiple exposures, instead of jpg (the originals can be saved together with the merged image, so merging can occur in post).
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 03, 2018, 01:48:28 am
An interesting article about focus fine tuning on the Z7.

https://blog.reikanfocal.com/2018/10/the-new-nikon-z7-investigating-with-reikan-focal/

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 03, 2018, 06:33:27 am
An interesting article about focus fine tuning on the Z7.

https://blog.reikanfocal.com/2018/10/the-new-nikon-z7-investigating-with-reikan-focal/

Cheers,
Bernard

Why does it need to? Isn't the focus achieved on the sensor? Is there focus shift when the aperture is closed?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 03, 2018, 07:41:05 am
Why does it need to? Isn't the focus achieved on the sensor? Is there focus shift when the aperture is closed?

All that is explained in the article. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: davidgp on October 03, 2018, 09:18:14 am
All that is explained in the article. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Umm... reading the article seems to imply that Nikon does not do at the end of the PDAF adjustement a CDAF tuning like Other mirrorless cameras do...

I always thought that was the case (with the exception of Canon that always said they were not doing in their dual pixel technology)



http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 03, 2018, 09:40:21 am
Umm... reading the article seems to imply that Nikon does not do at the end of the PDAF adjustement a CDAF tuning like Other mirrorless cameras do...

I always thought that was the case (with the exception of Canon that always said they were not doing in their dual pixel technology)

Indeed but considering the need to adapt AF-S lenses with good level of AF performance, it does make sense that they went for a solution where contrast AF isn't needed.

But this is just a plausible guess at this point. I don't think anybody got an official explanation from Nikon regarding the way the Z AF works.

AF-C and AF-S may not be working the same way either. AF fine tune is common to both AF-S and AF-C, so we don't really know how it works for both modes.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon Z7 gripes
Post by: Rory on October 03, 2018, 09:43:56 am
I was really keen on focus stacking - in fact, it was one of my reasons for getting the Z7. Unfortunately, the user interface for focus stacking is ... awkward. The most annoying thing about it is that the live view goes away while you're setting it up, and there's no way to actually aim the camera before starting the sequence. This makes handheld focus stacks almost impossible (although I tried). This isn't because I don't believe in tripods - I do, and like to use them where possible. But a lot of my shooting is in the backcountry, where every gram counts. I can easily handhold well enough to do half a dozen shots at different focus distances, which is enough depth of field even for the very large canvas prints I make, if combined with stitching. I tried attaching this function to a control ... but I still get taken to the focus stack screen, and so I can't see what I'm trying to focus stack. Too bad - this would be such a simple firmware fix. More sensible control over the focus increments would be really handy too, and would also be easy to calculate in camera (if Nikon folks were interested, I'd be happy to help them out).

Anyway, hope this of value to someone...

For a small system focus stacking you should try the Olympus EM1 (version 1 or 2).  With the outstanding image stabilization and live view of stacking in real time it is easy to use and works very well handheld.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: davidgp on October 03, 2018, 11:01:45 am
Indeed but considering the need to adapt AF-S lenses with good level of AF performance, it does make sense that they went for a solution where contrast AF isn't needed.

But this is just a plausible guess at this point. I don't think anybody got an official explanation from Nikon regarding the way the Z AF works.

AF-C and AF-S may not be working the same way either. AF fine tune is common to both AF-S and AF-C, so we don't really know how it works for both modes.

Cheers,
Bernard

I suppose one way to know some info is when people starts to reverse engineer to make adapters or third party lenses but I doubt that even them we will know for sure...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Telecaster on October 03, 2018, 03:02:23 pm
My main motivation for mostly dumping AF SLRs was their "guesstimate and hope" PDAF implementations. No AF system is perfect but for me CDAF has been way more consistently accurate than any PDAF system I've used. I'm also fine with hybrid PD/CD AF systems…but a PDAF-only mirrorless system would be a non-starter.

-Dave-
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: SrMi on October 03, 2018, 04:13:16 pm
My main motivation for mostly dumping AF SLRs was their "guesstimate and hope" PDAF implementations. No AF system is perfect but for me CDAF has been way more consistently accurate than any PDAF system I've used. I'm also fine with hybrid PD/CD AF systems…but a PDAF-only mirrorless system would be a non-starter.

-Dave-

People are reporting that the pinpoint AF mode is CDAF. Some believe that there is a CDAF trim step in other modes. I do not know of any reliable source that provides the necessary information.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on October 03, 2018, 04:23:58 pm
It is not ideal, I really wanted a D850 sensor in that Z7 body. Interestingly at ISO 100 is less obvious that at ISO 64 but there it's behind the A7R iii.

Surprised to see such evident stripes. I don't know how much underexposed was the shot, but it doesn't seem a too demanding scene. The point is that you get stripes where you still have detail.

(http://www.guillermoluijk.com/misc/nikonz7.jpg)

Regards
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 03, 2018, 04:28:04 pm
PDAF on mirrorless eliminates most of the cause of errors found in DSLR, which the subtle positioning of AF sensors. It pretty much only leaves the lens side aspects.

Contrast AF is inherently an iterative, and therefore slower, process that is a poor match for subject tracking.

Designing a PDAF that has to be good enough to focus accurately without contrast AF is IMHO the best way to get real mid to long term improvements.

I don’t mind doing fine tuning of my lenses.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 03, 2018, 04:32:27 pm
Surprised to see such evident stripes. I don't know how much underexposed was the shot, but it doesn't seem a too demanding scene. The point is that you get stripes where you still have detail.

That doesn’t look good.

On the other hand, I tried to brighten a daylight scene at ISO64 4 stops in LR and wasn’t able to generate any banding, even in the darkest part of the scene.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: vjbelle on October 03, 2018, 04:59:16 pm
I too am alarmed by this report.  Maybe you can try a little harder to replicate what DPR seemed to uncover.  Maybe a typical scene where there is strong sunlight which causes under exposure to eliminate clipping and see what happens when raising shadows...... I'm sure you have but maybe one more try. To me, if this is substantiated, this would be cause to eliminate this camera.  I'm used to bringing up shadows with my 3100 and GFX at will with no banding.

Victor
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: gkroeger on October 03, 2018, 05:16:07 pm
Now I understand why I was unable to make any good images for 40 years with reversal film.  I could never underexpose by 5 stops and then print the area as neutral gray. Better start ripping the prints off the wall.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: SrMi on October 03, 2018, 05:25:54 pm
Lots of people are trying to reproduce the banding that DPR is reporting, to no avail.
I tried underexposing an indoor scene by 5 stops, lifting it by 5 stops in Lightroom and cannot see any banding at ISO 64. Once I start destroying the image (shadows +80) the banding starts appearing. I.e., it exists, but it is unclear in which cases they are visible in useful images.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: SrMi on October 03, 2018, 05:28:06 pm
Surprised to see such evident stripes. I don't know how much underexposed was the shot, but it doesn't seem a too demanding scene. The point is that you get stripes where you still have detail.

(http://www.guillermoluijk.com/misc/nikonz7.jpg)

Regards

Where did you get that image from? This looks like an overprocessed image of the image (JPG) published on DPR.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: gkroeger on October 03, 2018, 08:39:26 pm
That is not the original jpeg published by DRP... it has the contrast jacked way up bordering on posterization.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 03, 2018, 10:01:00 pm
Why don't you wait a bit, rent the camera to check it out...
I am sure there are some things that could be better since its their first FF ML.
For one the sensor needs a very short read-out-time  to make it more useful; am not sure were these new ML's stands and there will be tests and reviews all over the place.
I have a d850 and that serves me well...  although i see the benefit of ML in some cases.
 (and still have the lightweight nikon1 that i really like and can combine with all my nikkors)

Well, too late. Having the D850 experience for the first time I preordered a camera but it became available much sooner than I expected.
I tried to cancel it but it was too late. I'm debating if I should send it back without opening or to give it a shot. On a side not I forgot I need a XQD card so if I want to keep it I need to buy one of those too, I see cheap is not one of their qualities.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on October 04, 2018, 01:21:18 am
Not a big fan, but Tony Northrup has a comaprison of image quality on his YouTube channel where he tests Z7 vs D850 vs A7r3 vs EOS R.  The bottom line is - they're all about the same, banding and all (not the D850).

Back to taking photographs ....
Title: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: davidgp on October 04, 2018, 01:57:37 am
This sound all too familiar... the banding issue I mean... now everybody is saying is the doom of everything... others saying it is not a problem... in a few weeks you will have people enjoying the camera, Jim Kasson put this in better words than me: https://blog.kasson.com/nikon-z6-7/z7-silly-season/

In resume, Z7 sensor is a tiny bit worst because of the PDAF system on top of some photodiodes than the D850 sensor? Of course it is!!! Matters too much? I suppose if you bought the camera just for pure sensor performance and you already have a D850... yes, then it matters... for the rest, enjoy the camera...


http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: davidgp on October 04, 2018, 02:01:58 am
By the way... Jim has already starting dissecting the camera: https://blog.kasson.com/nikon-z6-7/nikon-z7-edr-vs-iso/ , I enjoy reading his articles although I confess he goes many times in more depth than I can follow...


http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on October 04, 2018, 02:32:47 am
Where did you get that image from? This looks like an overprocessed image of the image (JPG) published on DPR.
The original JPG is top right for reference. I applied a contrast curve to enhance the visibility of the stripes, which are already visible without any curve in the original image.

The point is not how much over processing was needed, but if stripes are visible where we could still expect to find valid information on a D850 for instance. If this is the case, the Z7 would have less usable DR than the D850, no matter if their SNR curves are similar (pattern 'noise' has a much greater effect on human vision than on statistical noise measurements).

Regards
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on October 04, 2018, 02:42:58 am


Now I understand why I was unable to make any good images for 40 years with reversal film.  I could never underexpose by 5 stops and then print the area as neutral gray. Better start ripping the prints off the wall.

This is heard 100 times and it's 100 times wrong. Lifting the shadows by 5 stops doesn't mean underexposing anything. A high contrast scene must be exposed to preserve the highligts. Done that, you'll lift only the dark areas of the scene to make information visible on them. This is what DR in a digital sensor is about.

Regards

Enviado desde mi PRA-LX1 mediante Tapatalk

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 04, 2018, 03:41:25 am

This is heard 100 times and it's 100 times wrong. Lifting the shadows by 5 stops doesn't mean underexposing anything. A high contrast scene must be exposed to preserve the highligts. Done that, you'll lift only the dark areas of the scene to make information visible on them. This is what DR in a digital sensor is about.

Yes, this is indeed true, but so far the only case of slight banding I have been able to reproduce is an underexposed photo of a black object (a Profoto soft box grid - softbox shut down) at ISO 4000 after a +100% shadow lift with +2 stop exposure increase in LR. And even so, it is pretty subtle.

I am as concerned about DR as anybody else, but I don't feel that this issue has real world implications per my current findings.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: 32BT on October 04, 2018, 03:42:30 am
The original JPG is top right for reference. I applied a contrast curve to enhance the visibility of the stripes, which are already visible without any curve in the original image.

The point is not how much over processing was needed, but if stripes are visible where we could still expect to find valid information on a D850 for instance. If this is the case, the Z7 would have less usable DR than the D850, no matter if their SNR curves are similar (pattern 'noise' has a much greater effect on human vision than on statistical noise measurements).

Regards


I'm not a Nikon fanboy by any means, never owned a Nikon. Was tempted by that 85 nikkor though. But i'm going to repeat this ad nauseum: it's a raw converter problem, not a camera problem. All the FFM offerings have a pattern problem of some kind due the pdaf pixels which apparently need to be compensated for.

In that respect i find "unusable" a bit of an exegaration. It would be perfectly usuable, if the raw conversion did what it's supposed to do.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: gkroeger on October 04, 2018, 05:21:29 am

This is heard 100 times and it's 100 times wrong. Lifting the shadows by 5 stops doesn't mean underexposing anything. A high contrast scene must be exposed to preserve the highligts. Done that, you'll lift only the dark areas of the scene to make information visible on them. This is what DR in a digital sensor is about.

Regards

Enviado desde mi PRA-LX1 mediante Tapatalk

I expose for highlights and lift the shadows all the time... but raising the minimally exposed pixels to midtones is alway going to produce noisy midtones.  The only question is whether the noise will have a repeatable pattern or random pattern. I do agree that this makes the DR of the Z7 a bit less than the D850. But I also disagree that there is any meaningful "detail" in the regions where the banding appears... perhaps some subtle tonal variations.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: 32BT on October 04, 2018, 05:29:51 am
Technically, this gives the Z more dynamic range, not less...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on October 04, 2018, 05:56:32 am
But I also disagree that there is any meaningful "detail" in the regions where the banding appears... perhaps some subtle tonal variations.

I didn't say that, I was just wondering myself. The Dpreview JPG file is unfortunately a bad example to judge because the strips appear in soft out of focus areas, so it's difficult to guess that if on those areas we had had fine detail, a D850 would have been capable of recovering it over (regular, not stripped) noise or not.

Perhaps Bernard can do some D850 vs Z7 comparison on a controlled high contrast scene.

Regards
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 04, 2018, 07:34:21 am
Perhaps Bernard can do some D850 vs Z7 comparison on a controlled high contrast scene.

Yes, I could try to do that.

But before that I need to understand what conditions generate this banding, because I don't see any in some images.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 04, 2018, 08:02:44 am
Yes, I could try to do that.

But before that I need to understand what conditions generate this banding, because I don't see any in some images.

Cheers,
Bernard

Do you see it in something like this: sunset, expose for highlights, lift shadows at 100, lift exposure by 1-2 stops and add some contrast and clarity?

On the comparison on dpreview I see the shadows don't take that color shift towards magenta that all my other cameras do if I push the shadows enough, Oly being the worst but both the X-Ts from Fuji and the D750 do it.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 04, 2018, 08:12:30 am
Do you see it in something like this: sunset, expose for highlights, lift shadows at 100, lift exposure by 1-2 stops and add some contrast and clarity?

On the comparison on dpreview I see the shadows don't take that color shift towards magenta that all my other cameras do if I push the shadows enough, Oly being the worst but both the X-Ts from Fuji and the D750 do it.

I don't yet have such outdoor samples to check, but I will.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Bo_Dez on October 04, 2018, 11:09:03 am
I have seen this sort of banding in other cameras. As I understand these times in the past it has related to not enough shielding of electronics. So it could well be something that can be resolved.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: chez on October 04, 2018, 01:41:11 pm

This is heard 100 times and it's 100 times wrong. Lifting the shadows by 5 stops doesn't mean underexposing anything. A high contrast scene must be exposed to preserve the highligts. Done that, you'll lift only the dark areas of the scene to make information visible on them. This is what DR in a digital sensor is about.

Regards

Enviado desde mi PRA-LX1 mediante Tapatalk

Exactly. Right now on Kauai shooting sunsets with dark lava rock foregrounds. I expose for the sun and lift the dark foreground in post. Will I lift 5 stops...not always, but I'm glad it's available to me if the scene requires it.

Used to always shoot same scenes with a 3 stop ND filter and still lift some in post...but that had issues with uneven foregrounds which clashed with the straight line of the GND filter.

I think many people that poke fun at lifting exposure just don't shoot under conditions that require this...in other words...speaking from ignorance.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: cgarnerhome on October 04, 2018, 06:24:12 pm
Wouldn't be the first time someone speaks from ignorance!  So far so good with my Z7 but personally I never open shadows that much so not an issue for me.  If would just shoot a couple of exposures and blend them in PS - albeit it's a little more work.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 04, 2018, 10:15:52 pm
Some updates regarding the performance of the 24-70, the pictures make it easier to understand the magnitude of the problem: https://photographylife.com/nikon-z-24-70mm-f-4-s-performance-overview

The vignetting is a little too much, particularly at 35 but something once can deal with.
The sharpness drop is quite obvious but from memory they are likely similar to my 24-120 F4, just starting later. I was hoping for it to be much better than my 24-120, particularly is it doesn't really improve that much with stopping down but I guess there is no free lunch. The comment that it can be an excellent lens if you use a 1.1x crop is interesting.
I'll play with some raws and see if I get any banding.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on October 04, 2018, 10:47:54 pm
Even those "weak corners" are marked "the triangles of what you'd expect from a zoom" in the review. They're tiny pieces of the corner that are weak by the standards of the rest of the field. Those corners are equivalent to something like a Nikkor 24-120 - they stand out because everythingexcept the corners is in a different class...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 04, 2018, 11:50:53 pm
I played with few raws from dpreview. Initially as I would normally process them than I pushed them beyond what I would usually do. Most were at iso 64, one at 6400. I obtained many unnatural things but no banding.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: 32BT on October 05, 2018, 12:54:18 am
Apparently their oversized mount still wasn't large enough...! 
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 05, 2018, 02:35:14 am
Even those "weak corners" are marked "the triangles of what you'd expect from a zoom" in the review. They're tiny pieces of the corner that are weak by the standards of the rest of the field. Those corners are equivalent to something like a Nikkor 24-120 - they stand out because everythingexcept the corners is in a different class...

That summarizes it pretty well. The corners are not weak in absolute terms, they are merely good.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: SrMi on October 05, 2018, 11:12:18 am
That summarizes it pretty well. The corners are not weak in absolute terms, they are merely good.

Cheers,
Bernard

Let's wait for more tests. In the article mentioned, the tester may have used a polarizer, which may or may not have affected the corners. Hopefully, the tester did not use the EXIF hack (change Z7 -> D850) otherwise built-in profiles are not applied (crops the image slightly).
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: chez on October 05, 2018, 01:01:02 pm
Apparently their oversized mount still wasn't large enough...!

So much talk about the large mount enabling brilliant lenses and yet we get strong vignette and smeary corners. Come on Nikn...lets make the mount HUGE.
Title: Nikon 24-70 f/4 S Imatest
Post by: JohnHeerema on October 05, 2018, 01:36:51 pm
For folks who like pictures, here what sharpness looks like at a few focal lengths on my 24-70 f/4 S.

Please note that absolute sharpness values should be taken with a huge grain of salt, as I'm not set up to reliably test absolute sharpness - I only use Imatest for relative comparisons. Also, these were done with focus set on the centre point. Before judging the corner performance, I hope to find some time to run some tests with the focus point set close to the corners, as the plane of focus may well be (is likely to be) a bit curved.
Title: Re: Nikon 24-70 f/4 S Imatest
Post by: SrMi on October 05, 2018, 02:00:22 pm
For folks who like pictures, here what sharpness looks like at a few focal lengths on my 24-70 f/4 S.

Please note that absolute sharpness values should be taken with a huge grain of salt, as I'm not set up to reliably test absolute sharpness - I only use Imatest for relative comparisons. Also, these were done with focus set on the centre point. Before judging the corner performance, I hope to find some time to run some tests with the focus point set close to the corners, as the plane of focus may well be (is likely to be) a bit curved.

Thanks! What did you use to convert raw files to TIFF?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: JohnHeerema on October 05, 2018, 03:05:29 pm
Quote
Thanks! What did you use to convert raw files to TIFF?

I used the new converter that ships with Imatest.
Let me know if you need more details.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 05, 2018, 03:57:31 pm
What do you guys think about ergonomics?
I received it today and I'm still not decided but I did open the box (it's not sealed) to see how the Z7 fits in hand. I didn't think the ergonomics are that great, the caveat being I didn't put the lens on it.
The FN buttons next to the mount are difficult to reach. The buttons on the right lower back require repositioning of the right hand. Despite the much deeper grip it didn't feel that much better than a Fuji X-T2 which has its own warts (the in between top dials Fn button it's very difficult to access). Maybe I should try a Sony too ;)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: JohnHeerema on October 05, 2018, 04:18:00 pm
Quote
What do you guys think about ergonomics?

I find the function buttons to be quite easy to use, but I've got long fingers, which probably helps.

There's limited flexibility in how you can assign functions to the physical controls, which means that I can't set it up quite the way I want it.

Focus stacking is an ergonomic disaster. It looks like someone at Nikon had read that there was something called focus stacking, and wanted to be able to put it on the feature checklist, but didn't actually know anything about it. Presumably there weren't any smart people left to implement it, so it went to someone on what Michael called "The B Team" in his review of the Fuji X100. It's awful in so many ways, but could easily be fixed in firmware if it ever got assigned to someone on the "A Team".

The virtual horizon is gaudy and intrusive, unlike the nice subtle virtual horizon in Nikon's DSLRs (it looks like the silly version in LiveView got used instead). That's a real shame for me, because I use the virtual horizon in the vast majority of my shots.

Nikon has a reputation for being lazy about firmware updates, but I think that the company is on the line with the Z system, so I'm optimistic that Nikon management will consider allocating some funds to improving the user experience.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: SrMi on October 05, 2018, 04:47:33 pm
I used the new converter that ships with Imatest.
Let me know if you need more details.

Thanks. Does it apply the built-in lens profile? If you read the file with LR or Capture NX-D, the distortion gets fixed and the file slightly cropped automatically (no way to opt-out). It is a mandatory/typical step for lenses that rely on SDC (Software Distortion Correction).
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: JohnHeerema on October 05, 2018, 04:51:11 pm
Quote
Does it apply the built-in lens profile?

There is no such thing as a built in lens profile in Imatest - it works from raw files - and, as far as I know, Nikon does not adjust raw files to compensate for known lens aberrations. Nikon might (or more likely, might not) clarify this at some point.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: SrMi on October 05, 2018, 04:52:16 pm
What do you guys think about ergonomics?
I received it today and I'm still not decided but I did open the box (it's not sealed) to see how the Z7 fits in hand. I didn't think the ergonomics are that great, the caveat being I didn't put the lens on it.
The FN buttons next to the mount are difficult to reach. The buttons on the right lower back require repositioning of the right hand. Despite the much deeper grip it didn't feel that much better than a Fuji X-T2 which has its own warts (the in between top dials Fn button it's very difficult to access). Maybe I should try a Sony too ;)

IMO, if you are used to Nikon DSLRs, you may find the ergonomics worse. If you are used to other mirrorless cameras, you may find the ergonomics better (especially when comparing to Sony). I personally am very happy to get a mirrorless camera that comes close to my preferred ergonomics, those of Nikon DSLRs.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: SrMi on October 05, 2018, 04:56:14 pm
There is no such thing as a built in lens profile in Imatest - it works from raw files - and, as far as I know, Nikon does not adjust raw files to compensate for known lens aberrations. Nikon might (or more likely, might not) clarify this at some point.

Nikon Z7 files are the first ones to have built-in profiles, AFAIK (see LR Lens Correction tab and/or compare a 24mm image with and without correction). I think it would be interesting to convert your test files to TIFF using Capture NX-D, if possible. Otherwise, you'll be measuring corners that nobody will see anyway.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Christopher on October 05, 2018, 06:01:11 pm
I didn’t like how it felt in my hands. The same goes for all current FF mirrored cameras. I find it very „exhausting“ carrying them in my hand for a longer time. In 10 Times prefer the grip of a d850 or in my case GFX.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: DP on October 05, 2018, 06:47:02 pm
Nikon Z7 files are the first ones to have built-in profiles, AFAIK (see LR Lens Correction tab and/or compare a 24mm image with and without correction).
you nave no clue - the first ones were raw files from Panasonic P&S (like LX3) many-many years ago ... and that is what forced Adobe to make changes to DNG standard and introduce optics correction tags, that was if I am not mistaken since LX3 in the summer of 2008
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: JohnHeerema on October 05, 2018, 07:07:21 pm
Ah, that must be why the NEF file format changed.

I don't use Nikon software, but I exported TIFFs from Lightroom, with the built-in lens profile active.
The results changed more than I had expected that they would change if the lens profile only addressed geometry. Interesting.
I'd post the charts, but the LL server seems to be cranky about attachments today.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: SrMi on October 05, 2018, 07:16:56 pm
you nave no clue - the first ones were raw files from Panasonic P&S (like LX3) many-many years ago ... and that is what forced Adobe to make changes to DNG standard and introduce optics correction tags, that was if I am not mistaken since LX3 in the summer of 2008

I meant that the first Nikon's files to have built-in profiles are the files from Z7, AFAIK. I thought that was clear from the context, but apparently, it was not.

Many of my cameras have been having built-in profiles for many years, fully aware of that. Sometimes those built-in profiles are not really needed (read Sean Reid complaining about them), sometimes they are very needed, almost mandatory.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: SrMi on October 05, 2018, 07:23:58 pm
Ah, that must be why the NEF file format changed.

I don't use Nikon software, but I exported TIFFs from Lightroom, with the built-in lens profile active.
The results changed more than I had expected that they would change if the lens profile only addressed geometry. Interesting.
I'd post the charts, but the LL server seems to be cranky about attachments today.

Capture NX-D is a free download and generates TIFF files with less vignetting at f4.0 than LR does. It is easy to use if you only want to convert :-).
I think applying the profile also crops a bit so that the extreme & unsharp corners fall out. After cropping, the image looks as it was in the EVF.
Another trap is when you use ExifTool as a hack to force an older version of LR to accept Z7 files: built-in profiles do not get applied in that case.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 05, 2018, 08:03:42 pm
I meant that the first Nikon's files to have built-in profiles are the files from Z7, AFAIK. I thought that was clear from the context, but apparently, it was not.

It was clear, that's just him.

IMO, if you are used to Nikon DSLRs, you may find the ergonomics worse. If you are used to other mirrorless cameras, you may find the ergonomics better (especially when comparing to Sony). I personally am very happy to get a mirrorless camera that comes close to my preferred ergonomics, those of Nikon DSLRs.

I use a D750 on the DSLR side (never the "pro" stuff), X-E1 and X-T1/2 from Fuji and Oly E-M5ii. Most of the times they have an L-plate attached. I think I like the most the X-T2 for overall ergonomics but D750 is the most comfortable to hold. Keep in mind I almost always use 2 hands, with the left holding the lens so the grip is less important than for others. I appreciate a deeper grip when carrying the camera not that much when shooting.

The Z7 felt a little weird. The grip is deep but if you hold it properly your thumb goes away or is less easy to get to the buttons on the bottom right. To reach the function buttons next to the mount I have to release the grip a little; it feels more natural on both X-T2 and E-M5ii. The caveat to this is I tried it without a lens, it's very possible/likely it will be easier the reach them if I hold the camera by the lens and don't need to hold on the grip that tight.


I find the function buttons to be quite easy to use, but I've got long fingers, which probably helps.

There's limited flexibility in how you can assign functions to the physical controls, which means that I can't set it up quite the way I want it.

Focus stacking is an ergonomic disaster. It looks like someone at Nikon had read that there was something called focus stacking, and wanted to be able to put it on the feature checklist, but didn't actually know anything about it. Presumably there weren't any smart people left to implement it, so it went to someone on what Michael called "The B Team" in his review of the Fuji X100. It's awful in so many ways, but could easily be fixed in firmware if it ever got assigned to someone on the "A Team".

The virtual horizon is gaudy and intrusive, unlike the nice subtle virtual horizon in Nikon's DSLRs (it looks like the silly version in LiveView got used instead). That's a real shame for me, because I use the virtual horizon in the vast majority of my shots.

Nikon has a reputation for being lazy about firmware updates, but I think that the company is on the line with the Z system, so I'm optimistic that Nikon management will consider allocating some funds to improving the user experience.


I wish I can be optimistic about it but did Nikon ever release firmware updates that were more than bug fixes? I don't see anything in this "new" Nikon that says they changed and I don't think they will, not willingly at least. While Fuji has flaws they correct them and more importantly they add new features that were not there. Oly and Pana (less) are following this example. Even Sony is doing some, although they mostly release new cameras.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: D Fuller on October 05, 2018, 10:55:26 pm
What do you guys think about ergonomics?
I received it today and I'm still not decided but I did open the box (it's not sealed) to see how the Z7 fits in hand. I didn't think the ergonomics are that great, the caveat being I didn't put the lens on it.
The FN buttons next to the mount are difficult to reach. The buttons on the right lower back require repositioning of the right hand. Despite the much deeper grip it didn't feel that much better than a Fuji X-T2 which has its own warts (the in between top dials Fn button it's very difficult to access). Maybe I should try a Sony too ;)

I like the ergonomics quite a lot. I just picked mine up today, and have been testing with various lenses and under varous conditions.

My middle and ring fingers fall quite naturally onto the function buttons as I hold the camera (with my left hand largely supporting it under the lens). The combinaton of those with the dials for AF and WB settings works well for me, though I'm not sure I see the need for WB to be as accessible as that, so I may play with assigning that function to something else.

I need to find a buton to assign to Live View 1:1 magnification for manual focus lenses; the +/- buttons are in an awkward place to use with the viewfinder.

And as most every one has said, the the AF tracking controls are, at best, non-intuitive. I'm a long way from confident that I've got those understood yet.

Balance of the camera seems fine with everything I've got up through the 70-200 f2.8. And that lens autofocusses very well. I have a MF 300mm f2.8 that is definitely not well-balanced.but peaking is a joy with that lens. It's much easier to focus than on my D810, and sharp with the FTZ.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: SrMi on October 06, 2018, 02:11:54 am
I like the ergonomics quite a lot. I just picked mine up today, and have been testing with various lenses and under varous conditions.

My middle and ring fingers fall quite naturally onto the function buttons as I hold the camera (with my left hand largely supporting it under the lens). The combinaton of those with the dials for AF and WB settings works well for me, though I'm not sure I see the need for WB to be as accessible as that, so I may play with assigning that function to something else.

I need to find a buton to assign to Live View 1:1 magnification for manual focus lenses; the +/- buttons are in an awkward place to use with the viewfinder.

And as most every one has said, the the AF tracking controls are, at best, non-intuitive. I'm a long way from confident that I've got those understood yet.

Balance of the camera seems fine with everything I've got up through the 70-200 f2.8. And that lens autofocusses very well. I have a MF 300mm f2.8 that is definitely not well-balanced.but peaking is a joy with that lens. It's much easier to focus than on my D810, and sharp with the FTZ.

What do you use the OK button for? In my settings, it magnifies to 1:1 both in the review and record modes.
There is a lag in magnified view (about 200ms) that is causing some people a hard time to focus manually. Does it bother you as well? It does not bother me, but I'd rather have no lag.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: D Fuller on October 06, 2018, 09:50:18 am
What do you use the OK button for? In my settings, it magnifies to 1:1 both in the review and record modes.
There is a lag in magnified view (about 200ms) that is causing some people a hard time to focus manually. Does it bother you as well? It does not bother me, but I'd rather have no lag.

Not using OK for anything else yet, but it’s a little harder than I like to get my thumb there while focusing. I just reprogrammed F1 to 1:1, which is, I think, perfect. F1 gives me instant 1:1, F2 gives me AF modes. I don’t think I’ll mind getting to WB through the i menu, but I’ll see.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: SrMi on October 06, 2018, 10:28:06 am
Not using OK for anything else yet, but it’s a little harder than I like to get my thumb there while focusing. I just reprogrammed F1 to 1:1, which is, I think, perfect. F1 gives me instant 1:1, F2 gives me AF modes. I don’t think I’ll mind getting to WB through the i menu, but I’ll see.

You can also program the 'Movie Record button' to be the magnifier. I set Fn1 as Preview button.
Title: Nikon 24-70 f/4 S Imatest
Post by: JohnHeerema on October 06, 2018, 05:50:51 pm
Someone asked if the relatively lower corner sharpness on the 24-70 f/4 S was due to focus plane curvature.

So I tried focusing near the upper right hand corner of the SQRPlus chart, and seeing what the MTF-50 looked like.
The sharpness distribution is surprisingly close to the results obtained with the focus set right at the centre of the chart, except that the maximum resolution declines significantly.

My interpretation is that there is indeed a small amount of curvature to the plane of focus, but that other factors are the principal reasons for decreased resolution in the corners.

I largely bought the Z7 so I could use this compact 24-70 mm lens, and the resolution in the central part of the frame does not disappoint. There is some geometric distortion, but I'm not too concerned by it.

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on October 06, 2018, 07:20:16 pm
I'm not sure how to do it, since Imatest works on the RAW, but I'd be very interested to see these results run through Nikon Capture... I don't think anything else is applying the lens corrections correctly (yet). I suspect that lens has a fair bit of correction applied in the JPEG engine (or Nikon Capture) - most modern lenses do. Some very high-end lenses (like the Hassy X1D lenses, I believe) use quite a bit.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: SrMi on October 06, 2018, 08:31:22 pm
I'm not sure how to do it, since Imatest works on the RAW, but I'd be very interested to see these results run through Nikon Capture... I don't think anything else is applying the lens corrections correctly (yet). I suspect that lens has a fair bit of correction applied in the JPEG engine (or Nikon Capture) - most modern lenses do. Some very high-end lenses (like the Hassy X1D lenses, I believe) use quite a bit.

Bummer that you cannot read TIFF files.
X1D (XCD) lenses do not have built-in lens profiles. Turning on lens correction in LR does indeed correct distortions slightly, but the image is very usable without the correction.
Correction on 24-70/f4 S reminds me of the correction of Leica Q lens, where the uncorrected image is wider than the corrected one and the data at the edges gets thrown away automatically.
I am talking about corrections in Raw images.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: JohnHeerema on October 06, 2018, 09:30:16 pm
Quote
I'd be very interested to see these results run through Nikon Capture.

Using a TIFF generated by Lightroom, using the lens corrections baked into the NEF file, the results are not dramatically different:

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: johnvanatta on October 06, 2018, 10:07:26 pm
I spent today testing my 24-70 and Z7 out. I found a dramatic decrease in edge sharpness in close. At 24mm, f4, MFD, it looks like a stereotypical super zoom, with a very sharp center area and rapidly degrading edges. The effect was most pronounced at the wide end. Not field curvature, at least not in the usual sense, as far as I can tell. I didn't try focusing at the edges--perhaps the MFD is greater at the edges, so they simply can't be good? IE even the locus of maximum focus isn't really in focus, except at the center.

The good news is that at every distance except minimum it's a completely different story. Excellent edge to edge at f4 throughout most of the range. Colors and rendition look great too; a little hard for me to judge without capture one support.

My copy seems to have slight alignment issues at 70mm (infinity focus) on the left quarter-frame that don't clear up until about f7.1...I'll probably chalk that up to zoom variance.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 06, 2018, 11:16:49 pm
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1909/45096723672_1208ecca69_h.jpg)

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1908/31271883338_33ef9173ce_h.jpg)

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1948/45096723422_2261a4d770_h.jpg)
Z7 + 24-70mm f4

Now, in other images of the same series with the sun directly hitting the lens, I saw some pretty bad flare/reflection near circular patterns that may be reflections off the sensor. To be investigated more.

Other than that the Z7 performed superbly in those challenging conditions. I was glad to have a compact, stabilized high quality camera since the boat was small and crowded. My D850 and 24-70mm f2.8 would have been problematic.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on October 07, 2018, 12:33:12 am
Nice shots, Bernard - and impressive flare control - the sun in the frame is a source of problems to most lenses, and a compact zoom with a boatload (sorry) of elements should be worse than most...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 07, 2018, 06:09:16 am
Thanks Dan!

I don’t know if this is just a lens thing or a lens sensor interaction.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on October 07, 2018, 07:30:17 am
Spent the day wandering round Paris, 20 km according to my phone, carrying Z7+24-70.  Not sure I'd have managed that if I'd been carrying my D850+equivalent F-mount lens.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 07, 2018, 09:21:51 am
Spent the day wandering round Paris, 20 km according to my phone, carrying Z7+24-70.  Not sure I'd have managed that if I'd been carrying my D850+equivalent F-mount lens.

Not too be the devil's advocate but this could be much closer in weight.

Z7 with 24-70 - about 1100g

Nikon doesn't have a 24-70 F4 for F-mount but a Canon 24-70 F4 is 600g, so a D850 combo would be around 1500g. Going back to what I said in the past, there is no reason why a D750 cannot have a high resolution sensor and it's 750g.

So in an ideal world the difference could be 1100g vs 1350g.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 07, 2018, 09:27:10 am
On a second note how do you guys feel about a D750 body without the mirror and with the F-mount?

I'll probably try and keep the Z7, the problem that I have right now is that I didn't pay enough attention and instead of ordering a XQD card I got a SD UHSii so currently even if I want to try it I can't. Closest store that has a XQD in stock is 50 miles away. Oh well, it's raining anyway.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on October 07, 2018, 11:57:35 am
Not too be the devil's advocate but this could be much closer in weight.

Z7 with 24-70 - about 1100g

Nikon doesn't have a 24-70 F4 for F-mount but a Canon 24-70 F4 is 600g, so a D850 combo would be around 1500g. Going back to what I said in the past, there is no reason why a D750 cannot have a high resolution sensor and it's 750g.

So in an ideal world the difference could be 1100g vs 1350g.

My alternative is D850 with 24-120 which is 1780g
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on October 07, 2018, 01:10:06 pm
60 pages and 1200 posts of fanboys salivating at yesterday's news and me-too improvements, while the only magic and breakthroughs in photography are happening with iPhones.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: John Camp on October 07, 2018, 01:40:11 pm
I have almost no interest in lens or sensor tests for the Z7, because it was obvious right from the start that they're very good and any imperfections are nothing that we haven't dealt with in the past. (I'm a veteran of the Leica M8 "magenta wars.")

But I'm very interested in the handling and "apparent size" issues. I shoot a lot of street and I'm currently working with a couple of Panasonic GX8s which are pretty good, and, more importantly, are light and from a street subject's point of view, are not very obvious. What I'd really like to hear from Jeremyrh and Bernard is more on how they handle and what they look like. I currently shoot a D800 as well as the GX8s and have had almost every pro model of Nikon going back to the F3, so I doubt I'll have any trouble with software or menus or any of that stuff. But Jeremy said that his 850 and zoom would have been a problem if he'd carried them a long distance around Paris. Really? Is the difference that significant? My D800 and f2.8 24-70 are about 1800 grams total (without batteries, I think.) That's about a pound and a half more than the Z7 and the f4 zoom. I honestly have a hard time evaluating what exactly that means in terms of use. And what does Bernard mean when he says that the D850 on the sailboat would have been problematic? Also, when comparing them to an 850+lens, in terms of size, do they look *really* smaller? Or just *kind of* smaller? Is the frontal appearance notably less obvious?

I'm interested in the Z7 and maybe the Z6 because they'd have better low light performance than my GX8s and of course better resolution. But I don't want to be carrying a bazooka around with me -- I've already got that.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on October 07, 2018, 02:22:13 pm
60 pages and 1200 posts of fanboys salivating at yesterday's news and me-too improvements, while the only magic and breakthroughs in photography are happening with iPhones.

Thanks for your valuable contribution, Slobodan!!
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 07, 2018, 02:34:11 pm
I'm currently playing with it, with the 24-70 attached. It is not that small, however compared to a larger m43 camera it is comparable. The combo is quite dense though, heavier than what I would expect just by looking at it. The lens is larger, halfway between an Oly 12-40 F2.8 and 12-100 F4.

I'm still not very taken with the ergonomics, the hand have doesn't feel in a natural position. I definitely prefer an X-T2 with an L-plate attached, they are similar size. It might get better with time.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 07, 2018, 02:36:16 pm
60 pages and 1200 posts of fanboys salivating at yesterday's news and me-too improvements, while the only magic and breakthroughs in photography are happening with iPhones.

For the iPhone fanboys out there, the iPhone tends to be me too in this regard (or others).
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on October 07, 2018, 03:02:57 pm
I have almost no interest in lens or sensor tests for the Z7, because it was obvious right from the start that they're very good and any imperfections are nothing that we haven't dealt with in the past. (I'm a veteran of the Leica M8 "magenta wars.")

But I'm very interested in the handling and "apparent size" issues. I shoot a lot of street and I'm currently working with a couple of Panasonic GX8s which are pretty good, and, more importantly, are light and from a street subject's point of view, are not very obvious. What I'd really like to hear from Jeremyrh and Bernard is more on how they handle and what they look like. I currently shoot a D800 as well as the GX8s and have had almost every pro model of Nikon going back to the F3, so I doubt I'll have any trouble with software or menus or any of that stuff. But Jeremy said that his 850 and zoom would have been a problem if he'd carried them a long distance around Paris. Really? Is the difference that significant? My D800 and f2.8 24-70 are about 1800 grams total (without batteries, I think.) That's about a pound and a half more than the Z7 and the f4 zoom. I honestly have a hard time evaluating what exactly that means in terms of use. And what does Bernard mean when he says that the D850 on the sailboat would have been problematic? Also, when comparing them to an 850+lens, in terms of size, do they look *really* smaller? Or just *kind of* smaller? Is the frontal appearance notably less obvious?

I'm interested in the Z7 and maybe the Z6 because they'd have better low light performance than my GX8s and of course better resolution. But I don't want to be carrying a bazooka around with me -- I've already got that.

Hi John - maybe difficult to answer your questions objectively. My take is that I would simply not go out of the house to walk around with the D850 unless I were planning on shooting a lot of photos. The Z7 is light enough that I can take it out and if I come across something interesting, great, but if I come home without having used it, it's not the end of the world. In that sense it is a good replacement for my Oly EM1.

In terms of being obvious, I suppose it's like any small DSLR - perhaps less obvious because it's all black. I don't see it as a very unobtrusive "street" camera but it's far from a bazooka.

Not sure I was very helpful ...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on October 07, 2018, 03:05:37 pm
Hi John - maybe difficult to answer your questions objectively. My take is that I would simply not go out of the house to walk around with the D850 unless I were planning on shooting a lot of photos. The Z7 is light enough that I can take it out and if I come across something interesting, great, but if I come home without having used it, it's not the end of the world. In that sense it is a good replacement for my Oly EM1.

In terms of being obvious, I suppose it's like any small DSLR - perhaps less obvious because it's all black. I don't see it as a very unobtrusive "street" camera but it's far from a bazooka.

As for ergonomics, it is as everyone has said - a small D850. The dials and buttons are a little more awkward due to the size, but the grip is very good and the touch screen menu is really nice - a world away from the Oly version.

Not sure I was very helpful ...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 07, 2018, 03:44:44 pm
60 pages and 1200 posts of fanboys salivating at yesterday's news and me-too improvements, while the only magic and breakthroughs in photography are happening with iPhones.

I hope you’ll repost that 2 or 3 times in the Canon R threat... ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: LesPalenik on October 07, 2018, 03:48:19 pm
Not too be the devil's advocate but this could be much closer in weight.
Z7 with 24-70 - about 1100g

Nikon doesn't have a 24-70 F4 for F-mount but a Canon 24-70 F4 is 600g, so a D850 combo would be around 1500g. Going back to what I said in the past, there is no reason why a D750 cannot have a high resolution sensor and it's 750g.

So in an ideal world the difference could be 1100g vs 1350g.

In other words, the difference between Z7 with 24-70 and 850 combo is 400g which compares to the combined weight of one Big Mac (240g) with large fries (150g). For some photographers who want to save on carrying excessive weight, it might be cheaper to change their eating habits than the camera systems.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on October 07, 2018, 03:49:52 pm
In other words, the difference between Z7 with 24-70 and 850 combo is 400g which compares to the combined weight of one Big Mac (240g) with large fries (150g). For some photographers who want to save on carrying excessive weight, it might be cheaper to change their eating habits than the camera systems.

Post of the Year!!! :D
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 07, 2018, 04:04:14 pm
In other words, the difference between Z7 with 24-70 and 850 combo is 400g which compares to the combined weight of one Big Mac (240g) with large fries (150g). For some photographers who want to save on carrying excessive weight, it might be cheaper to change their eating habits than the camera systems.

Could be but Nikon doesn't have a 24-70 F4. With the 24-120 it's not light.

In other order I went to a Best Buy to pick up a XQD card (couldn't wait) and to my surprise they had lots of cameras on display.

The Sony A7 series didn't feel any better than the Nikon. The best felt the E-M1ii.
I also played with a D850 with a 24-70 F2.8G. I'll definitely not carry that thing in the mountains.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BJL on October 07, 2018, 04:07:31 pm
So in an ideal world the difference could be 1100g vs 1350g.
Yes; not a huge deal in itself. As I said at greater length in another thread,
https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=126656.msg1068369#msg1068369
the main way to reduce kit weight is to reduce lens weight through smaller effective aperture diameter, meaning higher minimum f-stop and/or a smaller format (or to be pedantic, higher sensor resolution). In turn, one thing that helps to make those smaller apertures acceptable more often is better IS, like 5-axis IBIS—better yet, coordinating that with in-lens IS.

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 07, 2018, 06:40:30 pm
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1912/44433653364_721aa3e245_h.jpg)
Z7 + 35mm f1.8 S

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 07, 2018, 06:42:01 pm
In other words, the difference between Z7 with 24-70 and 850 combo is 400g which compares to the combined weight of one Big Mac (240g) with large fries (150g). For some photographers who want to save on carrying excessive weight, it might be cheaper to change their eating habits than the camera systems.

True, but that has always been the case, yet lighter and more compact has been the key initial selling point of mirrorless camera systems (that is until the lenses because larger then DSLR ones ;)).

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: John Camp on October 07, 2018, 09:52:18 pm
Hi John - maybe difficult to answer your questions objectively. My take is that I would simply not go out of the house to walk around with the D850 unless I were planning on shooting a lot of photos. The Z7 is light enough that I can take it out and if I come across something interesting, great, but if I come home without having used it, it's not the end of the world. In that sense it is a good replacement for my Oly EM1.

In terms of being obvious, I suppose it's like any small DSLR - perhaps less obvious because it's all black. I don't see it as a very unobtrusive "street" camera but it's far from a bazooka.

Not sure I was very helpful ...

Actually, that does help. So like a small DSLR, with a FF lens. Huh. My GX8 with a 12-35 (24-70 equiv) is just under 800 grams (~28 ounces) including battery and memory card...so quite a bit smaller. I took my D800 to a drag strip a few weeks ago with the cars running from late afternoon until full night, and my D800 did quite a bit better than the GX8 in the lowest light with higher ISOs.  On the other hand, I've got two Voightlander f0.95 lenses for the GX8 that I wasn't using at the drag strip. I've got a lot to mull over here.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on October 07, 2018, 11:50:03 pm
On the wide-to-normal end, the mount means that the lenses don't have to be what we think of as FF sized (or at least not what FF  size has come to mean in the digital era - there were a lot of really compact film-era FF lenses)...

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on October 08, 2018, 01:13:23 am
True, but that has always been the case,


Not really. If someone thinks that not eating a Big Mac will lose them quarter of a kilo, I've got a bridge they might want to buy. Or, indeed, a diet plan.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 08, 2018, 01:58:21 am
Not really. If someone thinks that not eating a Big Mac will lose them quarter of a kilo, I've got a bridge they might want to buy. Or, indeed, a diet plan.

True enough. :)

I was speaking about the fact that the amount of weight saved by mirrorless over DSLRs was once very strongly highlighted by some Sony shooters.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on October 08, 2018, 02:50:26 am
Weight suspended from the neck is really valuable weight to get rid of - going from 2085 grams (D850 with 24-70 VR) to 1135 grams (Z7 with 24-70) around your neck is huge. Yes, you lose a stop, and if Nikon made a high-quality 24-70 f4 VR in F-mount, about half the weight savings would go away (about half of it is that the f2.8 lens is big and heavy, and the Z-mount version will probably be only modestly lighter).

There is presently no 24-70 f4 compatible with a camera with a high-resolution, high-DR sensor other than the Z-mount lens and the inferior Sony "Zeiss". Canon makes one, but their sensors aren't as capable as the Sony/Nikon group. Nikon makes a variable aperture 24-85 (not in the same league as far as I know), and a 24-120 f4, and Sony makes a pretty good 24-105 f4 (as does Canon). The lenses with much longer telephoto ends are quite a bit heavier, although the range is useful, and many initial tests suggest they aren't close to as sharp as the Z lens (most testing shows the Z as very, very sharp in the central 80-90% of the image).
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 08, 2018, 08:28:31 am
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1967/43363933310_92aff131eb_h.jpg)
Z7 + 35mm f1.8 S

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: HSakols on October 08, 2018, 09:18:40 am
Does the 24-70 zoom come with a lens shade?  I like the last image Bernard. 
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: cgarnerhome on October 08, 2018, 09:23:00 am
It does come with a lens shade.  It's pretty cheap though.  Not sure camera manufactures do such a poor job with lens shades.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on October 08, 2018, 09:26:56 am
Yes nice shot Bernard. Glad to see you out and about using the camera. It’s clearly a capable piece of equipment.

Regarding the weight I don’t think the saving is insignificant. Like packing a backpack. Easy to say it’s only 100g but say that often enough and you are in for a tough time. There is also the smaller form factor that makes you much less threatening on the street, and less of a target for criminals. All important in my world. I would buy this Z7, wouldn’t consider the 850 as good a camera as it is.

People sure got hysterical about this camera. Pleased to see that’s dying down a little and people,e are simply starting to use the thing.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 08, 2018, 09:55:08 am
It does come with a lens shade.  It's pretty cheap though.  Not sure camera manufactures do such a poor job with lens shades.

I don’t mind that it is flimsy, maybe it absorbs the shocks better and saves the lens.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on October 08, 2018, 10:15:45 am
NOBODY makes uniformly high-quality lens hoods (well, maybe Leica)... Nikon and Canon make some beauties for the supertelephotos, and Fuji has some nice ones but a bunch of terrible ones as well.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: D Fuller on October 08, 2018, 10:53:29 am
I don’t mind that it is flimsy, maybe it absorbs the shocks better and saves the lens.

I think this is spot on. I like the lens shades on the zoom and on the 35mm. They fit snugly, so they are in no danger of bent knocked off by a casual bump, and they shade stray light, which is what they're supposed to do. I also like that they're a bit flexible. That means they'll absorb a little shock without transferring it to the lens, and are much less likely to sustain damage than a metal shade. Also (a pet peeve of mine with some other shades) they have a flat enough front on the blades that you can stand the lens up on them without it falling over if you breathe on it.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on October 08, 2018, 02:40:44 pm
"Canon EOS M rules Japanese ILC market"

"Canon’s APS-C mirrorless format beating Nikon, Sony, Panasonic and Olympus"

https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/news/canon-eos-m-rules-japanese-ilc-market?utm_content=bufferfd41e&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer_dcwfb

Quote
for the month of September, the Canon EOS M50 was the best-selling interchangeable lens camera (ILC) in Japan – outselling all other DSLRs and mirrorless cameras.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 08, 2018, 03:58:02 pm
"Canon EOS M rules Japanese ILC market"

"Canon’s APS-C mirrorless format beating Nikon, Sony, Panasonic and Olympus"

https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/news/canon-eos-m-rules-japanese-ilc-market?utm_content=bufferfd41e&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer_dcwfb

Seems to be a nice camera that happens to be cheaper than many others.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: johnvanatta on October 08, 2018, 04:14:24 pm
I like the 24-70 lens hood. It's light and snaps on solidly, both mounted and reversed. The lens also feels great in hand. Machined aluminum Olympus lenses look nice, and feel great indoors, but they suck the heat out of my hands in tough field conditions, and they get slippery with sweat.

In practicality terms, Nikon has gotten a lot right with the Z7.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 08, 2018, 04:36:17 pm
Got to shoot with it an hour or so, much less than what I initially planned so more in depth testing of other adapted lenses or even of a polarizer will have to wait.

I still get the feel that Nikon got this camera out to stop the leaking to other brands.
From what I'm seeing so far for when the file quality doesn't need the high resolution or the best dynamic range I will still prefer the Fuji.
The good news is that I'm getting faster at accessing what I need.

Not being able to reassign the i button is probably good, it's the only one that doesn't require a significant change in the hand position. I'll have to play more with the content of the quick menu.

Whoever designed the focus shift wasn't having their best moment. It's relatively idiotic. You can't see what it's doing, I can only assume it's starting to focus either in the beginning vs where I focused last. I know it stops before shooting all frames of it reaches infinity. In practice it makes it difficult to do a focus stack only for the subject that you care about.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 08, 2018, 07:30:42 pm
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1910/30239130617_228e4f253e_h.jpg)
Z7 + 35mm f1.8 S

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 08, 2018, 08:15:25 pm
"Canon EOS M rules Japanese ILC market"

Slobodan,

What is this fascinating piece of information doing posted by you in a Nikon thread?

Yes, Canon has a great sales force. Nothing new. They would have gone down a long time ago on camera performance alone. Known facts.

Since the M is probably going away soon (no way Canon is going to keep 4 mounts in existence), they are aggressively cutting the prices to clear stock.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: SrMi on October 08, 2018, 08:16:14 pm
Got to shoot with it an hour or so, much less than what I initially planned so more in depth testing of other adapted lenses or even of a polarizer will have to wait.

I still get the feel that Nikon got this camera out to stop the leaking to other brands.
From what I'm seeing so far for when the file quality doesn't need the high resolution or the best dynamic range I will still prefer the Fuji.
The good news is that I'm getting faster at accessing what I need.

Not being able to reassign the i button is probably good, it's the only one that doesn't require a significant change in the hand position. I'll have to play more with the content of the quick menu.

Whoever designed the focus shift wasn't having their best moment. It's relatively idiotic. You can't see what it's doing, I can only assume it's starting to focus either in the beginning vs where I focused last. I know it stops before shooting all frames of it reaches infinity. In practice it makes it difficult to do a focus stack only for the subject that you care about.

What do you mean by "either in the beginning vs where I focused last"?
It starts wherever the lens is focusing on when you press Start. Have you tried "Peaking Stack Image" to visualize what will be in focus?
I do not like the interface neither, it is the same one as in D850. But in D850 you can look through OVF during focus-shift, with Z7 you cannot.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on October 08, 2018, 09:28:03 pm
Slobodan,

What is this fascinating piece of information doing posted by you in a Nikon thread?...

 Bernard,

Since apparently there is a “mirrorless war” out there, the arena where the new Nikons are competing, in global terms, I thought that info on the market share of various players might be of interest. As a Canon user, I must confess my own surprise that the M series is doing so good. From my perspective, it is a totally unremarkable camera.
Title: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... no let's talk about Canon!
Post by: BJL on October 08, 2018, 09:44:44 pm
Since apparently there is a “mirrorless war” out there, the arena where the new Nikons are competing, in global terms, I thought that info on the market share of various players might be of interest. As a Canon user, I must confess my own surprise that the M series is doing so good. From my perspective, it is a totally unremarkable camera.
Since you are curious, a better measure is probably the BCN estimates for total unit sales of mirrorless system cameras by brand in Japan for full years. That has Canon rising over the last few years into a tie with Sony for second place in 2017 (about 21% share), behind (unit sales) leader Olympus (about 28%). I too am puzzled by the M-system's degree of success in Japan; Sony E seems to do better than Canon M globally.

https://photorumors.com/2018/01/16/the-2018-bcn-camera-rankings-are-out/
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 08, 2018, 10:38:46 pm
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1926/31315680718_f50b8c41cc_h.jpg)
Z7 + 35mm f1.8 S

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 08, 2018, 10:43:23 pm
What do you mean by "either in the beginning vs where I focused last"?
It starts wherever the lens is focusing on when you press Start. Have you tried "Peaking Stack Image" to visualize what will be in focus?
I do not like the interface neither, it is the same one as in D850. But in D850 you can look through OVF during focus-shift, with Z7 you cannot.

I focused where I wanted to start and then go in the menu and start the focus shift operation but I had no visualization of where the sequence was starting, if it was where I focused before going into the menu or starting at the minimum focus distance. I did not do the peaking stack image, I did not know about its existence because like any self respecting male I read no manual or instructions.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 08, 2018, 10:59:43 pm
https://blog.kasson.com/nikon-z6-7/nikkor-s-35-1-8-on-z7-sigma-35-1-4-art-on-a7riii/

A very positive review of the 35mm f1.8 S by Jim.

The way he phrases his post is a bit strange though, the introduction may lead one to think that the results aren't that good,... but the rest shows the lens to be outstanding. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 08, 2018, 11:29:07 pm
Few samples from today
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 08, 2018, 11:35:54 pm
24-70 flare.

last one is heavily cropped
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: SrMi on October 08, 2018, 11:55:19 pm
I focused where I wanted to start and then go in the menu and start the focus shift operation but I had no visualization of where the sequence was starting, if it was where I focused before going into the menu or starting at the minimum focus distance. I did not do the peaking stack image, I did not know about its existence because like any self respecting male I read no manual or instructions.

To clarify: you focus where you want the sequence to start (or a little bit closer, just in case), invoke focus shift menu, start it. Hopefully, your setting will cover everything that needs to be sharp.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on October 09, 2018, 04:57:56 pm
Bernard,

Since apparently there is a “mirrorless war” out there, the arena where the new Nikons are competing, in global terms, I thought that info on the market share of various players might be of interest. As a Canon user, I must confess my own surprise that the M series is doing so good. From my perspective, it is a totally unremarkable camera.
Slobodan suffers from Nikon envy syndrome is still ruing the day that he picked Canon as his system. ;)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: faberryman on October 09, 2018, 05:16:31 pm
What are these random photographs supposed to demonstrate about the Z7. That it works?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on October 09, 2018, 06:01:39 pm
One bias that is always true of forums like this one is that we like both nice cameras and good photography. Most people who don't post here buy (relatively) cheap cameras with (very) cheap lenses to take pictures of their kids (and then don't use them because they're using their iPhone instead). The EOS-M models that are selling well are not the expensive ones - it's the kits found in Best Buy type stores (not sure what the Japanese equivalent is) that pair a $400 body with a $100 lens that drive unit sales.

In the US, those are DSLRs (D3500, latest low-end Rebel). In much of Asia, they're mirrorless, and EOS-M is doing well in that market.

The total interchangeable lens camera market from the cheapest D3500 to the Phase One IQ4150 is ~10 million units/year

Total annual production of Z6+Z7 is under a quarter-million units (20,000/month)  - this is straight from Nikon
I've seen 10,000/month for the D850, and the 5D line is probably a little more, but not much
I'd be shocked if the D5 plus 1Dx II added up to 10,000 units/month
The Sony mirrorless full-frame models probably add 50,000/month all told (I don't have data here, but that seems to be the range - hope Thom Hogan posts something comprehensive to his site soon, as he sometimes does).
Medium format is tiny, and not worth worrying about (I'd be amazed if any single non-Fuji maker sold 1000/month, or if everybody together (including Fuji) sold 5000/month)

Somewhere around 1 million of those 10 million cameras are the models we most often talk about here.

Another million are probably the low end of full-frame  (D610, D750, EOS 6D mkII) plus the highest end of APS-C (Fuji, D500, EOS 7D). Fuji sells somewhere around half a million interchangeable lens cameras per year or a little more, but many of those are X-A and X-M models, NOT X-Pro, X-T and X-H. you can't find the cheap Fujis in US stores, but (like the EOS-M) they sell well in some Asian markets.


The remaining 8 million cameras/year are never talked about on Luminous - they're sold in department stores with the only lenses they'll ever wear (sometimes you get an 18-55 and a 55-200 with them). That's the volume driver. Volume figures have nothing to do with any camera most of us use (unless you teach, in which case, knowing the controls of all of them is important because that's what students bring - cheap DSLRs are GREAT teaching/learning tools because they combine decent control with instant feedback). For exactly that reason, I make sure to learn to use all of them as they come out...

Dan
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 09, 2018, 06:40:26 pm
What are these random photographs supposed to demonstrate about the Z7. That it works?

You ok? Why are photos out there with camera reviews?
For me the first set was a quick test for dynamic range and colors. Second, called flare, was for .... flare. Sorry that I troubled you with these shots.

I'll let Bernard explain himself, should be want to.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 09, 2018, 07:37:15 pm
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1916/45212743561_7fbfc93c67_h.jpg)
Z7 + 35mm f1.8 S

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 09, 2018, 07:39:56 pm
What are these random photographs supposed to demonstrate about the Z7. That it works?

As far as I am concerned, that the Z7 + 35mm f1.8 S is a dream street photography camera offering best in class image quality (starting with colors) in a compact package with top quality lens.

But above that, I am a bit tired of too much camera talk without actual photographs.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: gkroeger on October 09, 2018, 09:31:07 pm
But above that, I am a bit tired of too much camera talk without actual photographs.

Cheers,
Bernard

Bravo... keep them coming!

Glenn
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Ray on October 10, 2018, 01:38:26 am
It's always possible to take nice or interesting photos, whatever camera one is using. However, when one is thinking of spending a significant amount of money on an upgrade, one needs a comparison with one's existing equipment in order to assess if the upgrade is worth the money.

For example, one of the major attractions of the Z7 and 24-70/F4 combination, is the 'claimed'  better sharpness at the edges and corners. If I were in possession of a Z7 and 24-70 S, one of the first tests I would be doing is comparing edge and corner resolution with my Nikkor 14-24, at 24mm and F8.

One of the main reasons I bought the Nikkor 14-24/F2.8 many years ago, was because the zoom was claimed to have the performance of many highly regarded primes at specific focal lengths within the zoom range. My own tests also confirmed that edge and corner resolution was far better than my then current wide-angle zoom, the Sigma 15-30 mm.

Having recently returned from a trip to China, I came across the following shot when processing my RAW files. As I understand, the location, if not the actual peak portrayed in the photo, is named 'The Beginning to Believe Peak'.

Apparently, some Chinese character in the ancient past was very skeptical about the  claims of the wondrous beauty of this area in the 'Yellow Mountains'. When he visited the place himself, his opinion gradually changed, and he gradually began to accept and believe that the reports he'd heard, of the magnificence of the mountains, were correct.

Sounds similar to the current problem with the Z7.  ;D

The 100% crop in the attached 3 images reveals a significant fuzziness that I hope would have been reduced had I been using a Z7 with 24-70 S, at 24mm. The camera used for the attached shot was the D810.

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 10, 2018, 02:52:08 am
Ray,

Nice images!

Where these shot with the 14-24 f2.8?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 10, 2018, 02:53:54 am
Bravo... keep them coming!

Yes sir, thanks for the encouragement!  ;D

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1972/45162633012_9e4a3f27a7_h.jpg)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Ray on October 10, 2018, 04:14:27 am
Ray,

Nice images!

Where these shot with the 14-24 f2.8?

Cheers,
Bernard

Thanks! Yes. It's just one shot with the D810 and 14-24 F2.8 zoom, but the aperture used was F8. I wouldn't expect corners to be as sharp at F2.8.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 10, 2018, 04:18:34 am
Quote
For example, one of the major attractions of the Z7 and 24-70/F4 combination, is the 'claimed'  better sharpness at the edges and corners. If I were in possession of a Z7 and 24-70 S, one of the first tests I would be doing is comparing edge and corner resolution with my Nikkor 14-24, at 24mm and F8. 

Jim Kasson tested the 24-70 F4 against the 24-70 F2.8G and they were close.
For the 14-24 comparison you might want to wait until next year for the 15-30 F4.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on October 10, 2018, 08:31:38 am
@Bernard - Great images from the Z7 and the 35mm lens.  This looks like just the kind of set up I would like to have while traveling as it would be lighter than by D810.  Right now, I have the small Peak Designs bag but that will only hold the D810 with a 24-85 3.5-4.5 zoom; no room at all for a second lens.  I know that for some mirrorless systems there is room for the body and a couple of lenses.  I'll need to look at the Nikon Z dimensions and see if this is the case as well.  In any event, I need to wait until the end of the year when I take my IRA distribution! ;D
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Ray on October 10, 2018, 08:50:52 am
Jim Kasson tested the 24-70 F4 against the 24-70 F2.8G and they were close.
For the 14-24 comparison you might want to wait until next year for the 15-30 F4.

In the meantime I would be more interested in seeing comparisons between my existing lenses and what's currently available for the new Z7 mount. I don't own a 24-70/F2.8; too heavy for me, especially when carried with the 14-24/F2.8.

Nevertheless, I'll be very interested in the 15-30 F4 which could be an ideal replacement for my rather heavy 14-24 F2.8.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: elliot_n on October 10, 2018, 08:55:16 am
Nice pictures Bernard. I have a soft spot for downtown Tokyo, but over and above that, your camera/lens combo is imparting something special. The pictures seem very clean and clear.

(Any chance you could share one at full resolution?)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on October 10, 2018, 11:17:42 am
... your camera/lens combo is imparting something special...

Ah, are we witnessing the birth of a Nikon-Z Leicanesque mystique?  ;)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: 32BT on October 10, 2018, 12:03:02 pm
Ah, are we witnessing the birth of a Nikon-Z Leicanesque mystique?  ;)

+1

 to the sarcasm, that is. Bernard's pictures have always been sharp and clean.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: chez on October 10, 2018, 12:28:38 pm
+1

 to the sarcasm, that is. Bernard's pictures have always been sharp and clean.

But doesn't just about any camera today deliver sharp clean images under nice lighting?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Riverman on October 10, 2018, 12:49:25 pm
So what lenses aren't sharp?  Even today's kit lenses are sharp enough. 
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Christopher on October 10, 2018, 12:51:19 pm
I think there are quite different opinions on what is actually sharp....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: elliot_n on October 10, 2018, 12:55:37 pm
I didn't say 'sharp', I said 'clear'.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on October 10, 2018, 01:38:52 pm
I didn't say 'sharp', I said 'clear'.

That clears it up then. As opposed to my murky Canon shots:
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: 32BT on October 10, 2018, 01:39:32 pm
The point is: even if you give Bernard a Canon (god forbid) then he'd still come back with sharp and clear images. It's a result of his attention to the photographic process, not equipment related at all, imo.

Now, if you look at some of Keith's images (KLaban), that's where you'll find some of that magical sharp and clear beyond attention to process. AS IF there is no glass between the viewer and the scene, a kind of sharp and clear that i currently ascribe to equipment or particular look.

Some of the first 850 images from capable hands have swept me and many others off of our feet. The Z system, despite its potential or promises, have yet to do something similar.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Rob C on October 10, 2018, 03:23:10 pm
The point is: even if you give Bernard a Canon (god forbid) then he'd still come back with sharp and clear images. It's a result of his attention to the photographic process, not equipment related at all, imo.

Now, if you look at some of Keith's images (KLaban), that's where you'll find some of that magical sharp and clear beyond attention to process. AS IF there is no glass between the viewer and the scene, a kind of sharp and clear that i currently ascribe to equipment or particular look.

Some of the first 850 images from capable hands have swept me and many others off of our feet. The Z system, despite its potential or promises, have yet to do something similar.


Getting swept off my feet would just give me a nasty bump which, on its own, would fail to provide me with a new, better camera and even if it did, my determination not to saddle myself with tripods again unless I get really, really brilliantly lit up one day and decide to use the 500 cat. once more, means that only a miraculous stabilisation system (which I have on nothing) would help me make it more successfully through the night physical barrier of human shakings.

Doomed, I tell you, doomed! But who cares? I don't! What I get is good enough for what I need. On that level I can be content. However, my Leica M style camera unfulfilled wish still remains, not because I think it would make anything better, just that I never did get round to buying one when I could easily do so. Now, like then, it can't be justified, and equipment justification has always run deep within me. I think I inherited that fiscal caution. Probably just as well, what with Brexit and all...

:-)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: johnvanatta on October 10, 2018, 04:21:21 pm
I don't think any of the Z lenses qualify for mystical adoration...after all, they're all less than $1000. It's simply not possible ;)

That being said, I find the out of focus areas from the 24-70 to be quite pleasing. Not something zooms, even excellent ones, are known for.

Tough conditions: heavy fog, half an hour before sunset, probably some water on the lens front by this point, ISO 1600 + some pushing, handheld.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: davidgp on October 10, 2018, 05:36:03 pm
Indeed but considering the need to adapt AF-S lenses with good level of AF performance, it does make sense that they went for a solution where contrast AF isn't needed.

But this is just a plausible guess at this point. I don't think anybody got an official explanation from Nikon regarding the way the Z AF works.

AF-C and AF-S may not be working the same way either. AF fine tune is common to both AF-S and AF-C, so we don't really know how it works for both modes.

Cheers,
Bernard

Hi Bernard,

Not sure if you are following Jim Kasson (he is forum member here) testing of the Z7, but he suggests that the Z7 does indeed the CDAF Trim phase: https://blog.kasson.com/nikon-z6-7/z7-vs-d850-afs-accuracy-with-nikon-58-1-4/ . He is quite happy with the precise focusing of the camera vs the D850.

Regards,

David
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: SrMi on October 10, 2018, 06:29:54 pm
Hi Bernard,

Not sure if you are following Jim Kasson (he is forum member here) testing of the Z7, but he suggests that the Z7 does indeed the CDAF Trim phase: https://blog.kasson.com/nikon-z6-7/z7-vs-d850-afs-accuracy-with-nikon-58-1-4/ . He is quite happy with the precise focusing of the camera vs the D850.

Regards,

David

Nikon has confirmed that they use CDAF with adapted lenses. It is not yet known if they use it with S lenses.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 10, 2018, 08:07:32 pm
Nikon has confirmed that they use CDAF with adapted lenses. It is not yet known if they use it with S lenses.

I stand corrected. Does that apply to both AF-C and AF-S?

Interesting that it doesn't have much of a negative impact on focusing performance.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 10, 2018, 08:24:04 pm
More thoughts.

The focusing joystick is a little stiff, had a hard time getting fast and accurately to where I wanted. I set it to go every other focusing area and it's better.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: SrMi on October 10, 2018, 11:52:12 pm
I stand corrected. Does that apply to both AF-C and AF-S?

Interesting that it doesn't have much of a negative impact on focusing performance.

Cheers,
Bernard

My only source is this quote "both Phase and Contrast-Detect AF are in fact used when attaching an F-mount lens to the Z series cameras via the Mount Adapter FTZ." (link (https://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2018/08/28/nikon-z7-engineer-interview-deep-dive-q))
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on October 11, 2018, 02:27:50 am
Just wondering - the guys posting Z7 images - are you converting to TIFF and then processing some more in C1 etc, or processing in the wretched CNXD??
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 11, 2018, 02:39:29 am
Just wondering - the guys posting Z7 images - are you converting to TIFF and then processing some more in C1 etc, or processing in the wretched CNXD??

Processing end to end in Lightroom Classic CC. It does support already the Z7 lossless compressed 14 bits files.

I prefer(red) C1 Pro but had to start re-learnign Lightroom for my Hasselblad files and now think thet are closer than I used to think.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Ray on October 11, 2018, 05:21:27 am
Here's another image of the Yellow Mountains with some interesting detail in the extreme lower right corner.

The image is a stitch from a couple of hand-held shots at 24mm and f8, using the Nikkor 14-24/F2.8 with the D810.

I didn't notice the tourists clambering over the rocks when taking the shots, and was very surprised to see them later as I processed the images in Photoshop. Those tiny figures tend to lend some perspective to the huge size of the mountain peaks.

Again, I can only speculate whether that corner crop would have been more detailed, and less distorted, if I had used the Z7 with 24-70 F4, at 24mm and F8.

PS. The lady doesn't seem to be ideally dressed for such an activity.  ;D


Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Rob C on October 11, 2018, 06:39:47 am
Here's another image of the Yellow Mountains with some interesting detail in the extreme lower right corner.

The image is a stitch from a couple of hand-held shots at 24mm and f8, using the Nikkor 14-24/F2.8 with the D810.

I didn't notice the tourists clambering over the rocks when taking the shots, and was very surprised to see them later as I processed the images in Photoshop. Those tiny figures tend to lend some perspective to the huge size of the mountain peaks.

Again, I can only speculate whether that corner crop would have been more detailed, and less distorted, if I had used the Z7 with 24-70 F4, at 24mm and F8.

PS. The lady doesn't seem to be ideally dressed for such an activity.  ;D

Nobody seems appropriately clad.

Are there no poisonous snakes, spiders or scorpions in China?

;-)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Ray on October 11, 2018, 10:05:09 am
Nobody seems appropriately clad.

Are there no poisonous snakes, spiders or scorpions in China?

;-)

Probably not as many as one might expect, because the Chinese eat such creatures. In some restaurants one can find a snake aquarium where one can choose the individual snake one wants to eat, and even watch it being skinned, so you are sure you're getting the snake you chose.  ;D
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on October 11, 2018, 10:07:36 am
...The image is a stitch from a couple of hand-held shots at 24mm and f8, using the Nikkor 14-24/F2.8 with the D810...

Ouch! Not a particularly nice corner performance at f/8, especially if you were stitching overlapping shots.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 11, 2018, 02:08:23 pm
Ouch! Not a particularly nice corner performance at f/8, especially if you were stitching overlapping shots.

Even if you are stitching most of the times the corners represent the single shot corners unless you overshoot and crop the corners.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 11, 2018, 02:17:51 pm
Just wondering - the guys posting Z7 images - are you converting to TIFF and then processing some more in C1 etc, or processing in the wretched CNXD??

I did both. Most shots I posted here are converted tiffs with Capture NX-D, then edited in LR. I can however open them in LR, it just says no profile loaded or something like that (I'm not next to a computer now), however if I apply my sharpening profile that I made for D750 it gives a decent start.

I'll probably stop using tiff, they are around 250MB each, not worth it most of the times.
I built my computer 3-4 years ago with a focus on silence. For the first time I'm hearing the fan when opening/ exporting the Z7 files. Chances are I'll need to upgrade, mostly to get a Thunderbolt storage with higher capacity and still fast enough for these humongous files.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on October 11, 2018, 03:18:49 pm
Even if you are stitching most of the times the corners represent the single shot corners unless you overshoot and crop the corners.

Which is why you should overshoot and crop the corners.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: davidgp on October 11, 2018, 04:26:14 pm
Ouch! Not a particularly nice corner performance at f/8, especially if you were stitching overlapping shots.

The Nikon 12-24 shows its age with higher megapixel sensors. It was the wide-angle king for long time, but it needs a refresh from Nikon for cameras like the Z7 or the D850.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 11, 2018, 04:34:38 pm
Just wondering - the guys posting Z7 images - are you converting to TIFF and then processing some more in C1 etc, or processing in the wretched CNXD??

I just compared head to head one of the shots and I get nicer colors and better highlight control from the CNXD but I like better the detail from the LR, more natural/ less crunchy. I hope full support on LR will be out soon.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: John Camp on October 11, 2018, 05:06:02 pm
I'm traveling, but stopped by a camera shop today and they had a Z7 with the zoom on display so I finally got to handle one, and I found it to be nothing like any DSLR I've ever handled. I liked it quite a lot. Notably larger than my GX8s and quite a bit smaller than the D800. Frontally, not really as noticeable as the D800s -- viewed from the front, as if somebody were taking a picture of you, the zoom stays inside the rectangle of the camera, so you really don't see it, unlike the situation with the f2.8 zooms which are just SFB that you see them even when mounted on a D800. Not nearly as intimidating as an 800-series with a 2.8. Also not like a smaller DSLR; had a denser feel to it, if that makes any sense. Like a Leica. Thought the viewfinder was terrific.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: SrMi on October 11, 2018, 06:38:44 pm
I just compared head to head one of the shots and I get nicer colors and better highlight control from the CNXD but I like better the detail from the LR, more natural/ less crunchy. I hope full support on LR will be out soon.

A new DNG Converter is out and they added Z7 support. Converted DNGs still report 'Profile Missing', but vignetting seems a bit better than with LR direct import.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 11, 2018, 10:54:04 pm
Did anybody tried properly the focus stacking/ shifting? I went through what I did and the results are terrible, maybe a couple of shots in focus and the rest totally out of focus. I'll have to do this on a more organized fashion to see where the problem might be.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Ray on October 12, 2018, 01:23:57 am
The Nikon 12-24 shows its age with higher megapixel sensors. It was the wide-angle king for long time, but it needs a refresh from Nikon for cameras like the Z7 or the D850.

I think you are right. I bought the 14-24 many years ago, around the time the 12 mp Nikon D700 was released. I was using the lens initially with my 13 mp Canon 5D, with adapter, then later with the Nikon D700.

The future 15-30/F4 on the Nikon roadmap will hopefully be a significant improvement. I'd be willing to sacrifice a full f stop at the wide end for the sake of a much lighter lens with sharper corner and edge performance. The increase of 6mm in focal length at the long end would likely be more useful than the wider 1 mm of the 14-24 at the short end.

A Z7 with 15-30 F4, 24-70 F4, and 80-400 using adapter, should suit all my photographic requirements. If Nikon can eventually produce a lighter and sharper 80-400 for the Z7 mount, then that would be much appreciated.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Ray on October 12, 2018, 01:33:17 am
Which is why you should overshoot and crop the corners.

Very true, Slobodan. As a competent photographer I should have taken more shots so I could crop out any fuzzy corners which might become a problem if I were to print a 2 meter x 4 meter polyptych.  ;)

Thinking that I probably did take more shots of that particular scene, for stitching, I revisited my archives to check. Sure enough, I found that I had taken a couple of more shots to the right of the scene, which I hadn't included in my original stitch, probably because of the variability of the tourist activity in 3 of the shots, which I thought the stitching program might not handle well. As I'm sure you know, stitching is not ideal for scenes which are not static.

Attached is the full scene showing the group of tourists in just one of the shots. I cropped out the tourists in the other two images prior to stitching. The degree of overlap was sufficient to allow that.

I've also included a 100% crop of the group of tourists which is close to the lower edge, but some distance from the extreme corner. Resolution is still lacking, but probably good enough for a 24" x 40" print, from a reasonable viewing distance of course.  ;)


Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: davidgp on October 12, 2018, 03:04:21 am
Jim Kasson on the banding or not: https://blog.kasson.com/nikon-z6-7/nikon-z7-banding/
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Ray on October 12, 2018, 03:22:44 am
Jim Kasson on the banding or not: https://blog.kasson.com/nikon-z6-7/nikon-z7-banding/

Good to see that Jim couldn't find any banding in 5 stop underexposures when pushed to normal exposure in LR. I've owned two cameras which produced noticeable banding in the deep shadows, the Canon 5D and the Nikon D7100. It disturbed me, and I don't want to experience that again.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 12, 2018, 04:24:48 am
Jim Kasson on the banding or not: https://blog.kasson.com/nikon-z6-7/nikon-z7-banding/

Upon examination, the only case where I saw banding wasn't banding, it was the texture of the dark object I was trying to photograph... ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: dchew on October 12, 2018, 06:38:25 am
Yes sir, thanks for the encouragement!  ;D

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1972/45162633012_9e4a3f27a7_h.jpg)

Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard,
The aliasing on that Kangaroo sign is horrible! Since Jim K killed any mileage out of the banding tragedy, I’m going to crop this, start a blog and see if I can get any traction.
 :P

Dave
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: 32BT on October 12, 2018, 07:05:35 am
Bernard,
The aliasing on that Kangaroo sign is horrible! Since Jim K killed any mileage out of the banding tragedy, I’m going to crop this, start a blog and see if I can get any traction.
 :P

Dave

Funny.

However...

The blurring of the sign with red letters and the street is a point of concern. Is that the backfocus transition for this zoom? Or is something else happening like maybe ibis?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: elliot_n on October 12, 2018, 07:18:27 am
It's the 35 f1.8 at f4.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: 32BT on October 12, 2018, 07:28:32 am
It's the 35 f1.8 at f4.

Seriously??? Glad i didn't use the word "horrible" in connection with the blur...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: HSakols on October 12, 2018, 09:24:46 am
I placed my order for a z7 on 9/26 from B&H.  I'm wondering if it would be faster if I cancelled the B&H order and went through a smaller shop? 
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 12, 2018, 02:17:55 pm
Jim Kasson on the banding or not: https://blog.kasson.com/nikon-z6-7/nikon-z7-banding/

I think this shows some banding, look on the bottom and left upper corner of the black door. This is the nef worked in LR, it looks even less obvious on the exported tiff (along with a more natural look). Keep in mind this was shot as a test, has exposure + 1.8, shadows +100, highlights -88 and clarity +21.
I tried to exported at full size with lower quality but the site gives an error.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: faberryman on October 12, 2018, 02:42:52 pm
Keep in mind this was shot as a test, has exposure + 1.8, shadows +100, highlights -88 and clarity +21.
So what you are saying is that the Z7 metering doesn't handle backlight situations very well.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: 32BT on October 12, 2018, 03:03:33 pm
I think this shows some banding, look on the bottom and left upper corner of the black door. This is the nef worked in LR, it looks even less obvious on the exported tiff (along with a more natural look). Keep in mind this was shot as a test, has exposure + 1.8, shadows +100, highlights -88 and clarity +21.
I tried to exported at full size with lower quality but the site gives an error.

Definitely something going on, but it's not quite similar to what was shown at dpr. The direction of the banding doesn't seem to follow the sensor:
1. Was this normal shutter exposure or e-shutter?
2. How much battery charge when taking the shot?
3. Did you add lens distortion correction?
4. If yes, what's with the sizeable CA?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Ray on October 12, 2018, 10:45:11 pm
I think this shows some banding, look on the bottom and left upper corner of the black door. This is the nef worked in LR, it looks even less obvious on the exported tiff (along with a more natural look). Keep in mind this was shot as a test, has exposure + 1.8, shadows +100, highlights -88 and clarity +21.
I tried to exported at full size with lower quality but the site gives an error.

I fail to see any significant banding which is distinguishable from a likely, natural, texture of the surface, especially at 100% enlargement, and after raising the shadows to a much lighter level than one would normally use in processing.

Banding is only a problem when it is obviously not the texture of the surface. To be certain it's banding, when the banding is slight, one needs to examine a completely smooth surface, such as the plastic rubbish bin in the foreground. Try underexposing a shot by 5 or 6 stops, which contains some genuinely smooth surfaces.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 12, 2018, 11:42:38 pm
So what you are saying is that the Z7 metering doesn't handle backlight situations very well.

No

Definitely something going on, but it's not quite similar to what was shown at dpr. The direction of the banding doesn't seem to follow the sensor:
1. Was this normal shutter exposure or e-shutter?
2. How much battery charge when taking the shot?
3. Did you add lens distortion correction?
4. If yes, what's with the sizeable CA?

1. normal shutter
2. practically full, less than 20 shots from full charge
3. no, unless LR did it on its own but I doubt it considering it says "profile missing"
4. came with the package, LR didn't autocorrect it and neither did I

The direction of the banding doesn't seem to follow the sensor
It kind does, I leveled the shot. See attached.


I fail to see any significant banding which is distinguishable from a likely, natural, texture of the surface, especially at 100% enlargement, and after raising the shadows to a much lighter level than one would normally use in processing.

Banding is only a problem when it is obviously not the texture of the surface. To be certain it's banding, when the banding is slight, one needs to examine a completely smooth surface, such as the plastic rubbish bin in the foreground. Try underexposing a shot by 5 or 6 stops, which contains some genuinely smooth surfaces.

New glasses maybe  ;D? There is definitely some banding in the dark areas and even a more faint one in the trash can. It's a smooth door, has no real texture. Now on what I posted it might be a little more difficult to see, I'll attach a smaller portion that's a little more obvious; look at the door.

I also attached how the initial shot looked like, no adjustment just resized.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: 32BT on October 13, 2018, 02:48:51 am
No

1. normal shutter
2. practically full, less than 20 shots from full charge
3. no, unless LR did it on its own but I doubt it considering it says "profile missing"
4. came with the package, LR didn't autocorrect it and neither did I

The direction of the banding doesn't seem to follow the sensor
It kind does, I leveled the shot. See attached.


New glasses maybe  ;D? There is definitely some banding in the dark areas and even a more faint one in the trash can. It's a smooth door, has no real texture. Now on what I posted it might be a little more difficult to see, I'll attach a smaller portion that's a little more obvious; look at the door.

I also attached how the initial shot looked like, no adjustment just resized.

Yup, you definitely got it.

Do you perhaps have a similar shot where if you apply the same LR correction, you do not have the banding?

What iso setting? What exposure parameters? Exp comp? And not unimportantly: what lens? FTZ adapter?

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Ray on October 13, 2018, 04:03:59 am
New glasses maybe  ;D? There is definitely some banding in the dark areas and even a more faint one in the trash can. It's a smooth door, has no real texture. Now on what I posted it might be a little more difficult to see, I'll attach a smaller portion that's a little more obvious; look at the door.

I also attached how the initial shot looked like, no adjustment just resized.

It's not an issue because the surface you've shown has got streaks all over the place. What's probably more disturbing, at that high degree of magnification, is the chromatic aberrations. A click on the 'reduce noise' tag in Photoshop, fixes that.

Attached is your image after applying color noise reduction. Whilst there does appears to be some degree of slight banding, it's still credible (from  the viewers' perspective rather than the anally retentive perspective) that the timber itself, perhaps as a result of degraded paint, contains the streaks.

You'll have to show me the banding on a completely smooth surface, or an obviously naturally smooth surface, before I'm convinced there's a problem.


Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Ray on October 13, 2018, 04:22:09 am
Here's an example of some obvious banding which is unacceptable. The shot was taken with my ISO-less D7100. I underexposed 4 stops, using ISO 200 instead of ISO 3200.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on October 13, 2018, 05:11:23 am
Another weekend, another day toting the Z7 as my "walkaround" camera, this time in Beijing, which frustratingly means I can't read Jim Kasson's blog as it's apparently blocked by the Google filter.

Anyway, still very pleased with the new package. 
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 13, 2018, 09:57:38 am
It's not an issue because the surface you've shown has got streaks all over the place. What's probably more disturbing, at that high degree of magnification, is the chromatic aberrations. A click on the 'reduce noise' tag in Photoshop, fixes that.

Attached is your image after applying color noise reduction. Whilst there does appears to be some degree of slight banding, it's still credible (from  the viewers' perspective rather than the anally retentive perspective) that the timber itself, perhaps as a result of degraded paint, contains the streaks.

You'll have to show me the banding on a completely smooth surface, or an obviously naturally smooth surface, before I'm convinced there's a problem.

It's a black metal door, has no structure per se. There are no significant streaks in it, definitely not repeating horizontal ones. The pattern that you showed is definitely more obvious but this one has it too, even in your "corrected" one.

Yup, you definitely got it.

Do you perhaps have a similar shot where if you apply the same LR correction, you do not have the banding?

What iso setting? What exposure parameters? Exp comp? And not unimportantly: what lens? FTZ adapter?



No similar shot yet, I could easily try one but I want to see first how the focus shift works, this banding is not such a big issue yet.
ISO64, 24-70 F4 S, F4 and 1/20, no exposure compensation.
I'll share for few days the raw, do with it whatever you please.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/zvyht22r3n1noug/DSC_0033.NEF?dl=0

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 13, 2018, 11:38:41 pm
Random.


1.The tilt screen is nice but I have very much preferred one similar to the Fuji X-T2 (or Pentax K1) for when shooting portrait.

2. I'm using Adobe color right now as a profile until Z7 is fully supported and I noticed this profile changes much more than color. It has already some modifications in contrast and saturation, and in sharpness and noise reduction. It varies the amount and the radius for the sharpness and it's using values much higher than what I would use for noise control. Maybe that's old news to those who used them but I just figured this out.

3. How do you use the face focus? I have set it to ON but I fail to see it getting activated. I'm probably missing something.

4. I have to do some testing but even with the IBIS my guess is that if you shoot handheld you gain significantly less resolution than you would expect compared to a lower resolution camera. Even compared to a higher density/ smaller sensor, such as a newer generation Fuji (it might be because I can hold the Fuji the steadiest, not sure why).

5. Focus shift - I think the steps are huge, even if you choose low values. It really takes into account the entire DOF and starts where the prior one ends. At F11 and 24-50mm it only needs ~ 3 shots to have everything in focus up to 100-150 m or so. More testing to done. It does stop I think at infinity but I was shooting in the forest and the second half of the shot in a series was totally oof. I actually like it this way, I prefer fewer shots.

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 14, 2018, 12:00:38 am
Today
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 14, 2018, 12:25:22 am
I figured the face detection thing. It has to be in auto area. I was used to Oly and Fuji where you can be in any autofocus mode and if you select face detection it will override it if it detects a face.


A site with settings: https://www.wimarys.com/nikon-z7-setup-guide-with-tips-and-tricks/
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: davidgp on October 14, 2018, 06:54:00 am
I think this shows some banding, look on the bottom and left upper corner of the black door. This is the nef worked in LR, it looks even less obvious on the exported tiff (along with a more natural look). Keep in mind this was shot as a test, has exposure + 1.8, shadows +100, highlights -88 and clarity +21.
I tried to exported at full size with lower quality but the site gives an error.

He updated his tests: https://blog.kasson.com/nikon-z6-7/nikon-z7-banding-revisited/


http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: elliot_n on October 14, 2018, 08:09:55 am
Interesting. So you get banding when there is a large brightness range. Which is the exact real-world scenario where you might find yourself pushing the shadows hard (as in Armand's example). Reminds me of the Canon 5D.

--------

Edit to add:

There's a long and ongoing thread discussing Jim Kasson's findings on DPReview:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4328936

As of now, the cause of the problem is a mystery. They are currently looking at two images (with a bright light source included in frame), taken one second apart, with identical settings. One displays banding, the other does not.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: John Camp on October 14, 2018, 11:52:46 am
I read through the whole thread on DPR and it's important to note that they're having trouble both forcing the banding and then spotting it. This reminds me a bit of audiophiles wandering around in a room to find the perfect spot to listen to music, when in fact they're not listening to music at all, they're trying to detect technical anomalies in sound waves, and sometimes they agree, and sometimes they don't, on what they find. Whatever the guys on DPR find, it seems as though it won't much affect actual photographs.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: D Fuller on October 14, 2018, 12:25:24 pm
Interesting. So you get banding when there is a large brightness range. Which is the exact real-world scenario where you might find yourself pushing the shadows hard (as in Armand's example). Reminds me of the Canon 5D.

--------

Edit to add:

There's a long and ongoing thread discussing Jim Kasson's findings on DPReview:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4328936

As of now, the cause of the problem is a mystery. They are currently looking at two images (with a bright light source included in frame), taken one second apart, with identical settings. One displays banding, the other does not.

I think I’m beginning to develop a theory for what might be going on with this. It does only seem to occur when there’s a substantial bright area in the frame as well as an underexposed area. A couple of things seem consistent:

It seems to me that this effect might be a kind of flare (not sure if that is the right term, but I don’t have another at the moment), where the bright light is bouncing around the inside of the sensor box or reflecting off the cover glass. In that case, what is recorded is a very faint reflected image of the sensor, similar to the familiar red dot problem some cameras exhibit. (The stripes, in that case, might be the reflected pattern of the PDAF sensels.)

If that is the case, the angle of the incoming light would surely be a factor, as might shutter speed and the use of EFCS, as they would change the reflective surfaces inside the camera.

Again, this is just a theory, so take it for what it’s worth.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Ray on October 14, 2018, 06:17:41 pm
I read through the whole thread on DPR and it's important to note that they're having trouble both forcing the banding and then spotting it. This reminds me a bit of audiophiles wandering around in a room to find the perfect spot to listen to music, when in fact they're not listening to music at all, they're trying to detect technical anomalies in sound waves, and sometimes they agree, and sometimes they don't, on what they find. Whatever the guys on DPR find, it seems as though it won't much affect actual photographs.

I agree, John. The banding on the Canon 5D, and later on the Nikon D7100 (at least on my model) was something that one didn't have to go searching for, but was something which hit you in the face during normal processing when lifting deep shadows.

The examples I've seen so far, of the occasional, slight banding on the Z7 in certain circumstances which are perhaps not yet fully understood, do not seem to me to be a problem from any practical perspective of taking technically good photos, but are more like a distraction.

Nevertheless, some benefit to basic image quality might eventually arise as a result of the ongoing investigation.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 14, 2018, 06:57:20 pm
So far I found the banding only when I went looking for it, meaning taking the shot and processing with the purpose of finding banding.

Here is a file where there was some DR challenge but I didn't push the file beyond expectations (no exposure change, - 86 highlights, + 100 shadows, contrast + 26, clarity +10) and I got no banding that I could see.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: JohnHeerema on October 15, 2018, 05:06:07 pm
Quote
Did anybody tried properly the focus stacking/ shifting? I went through what I did and the results are terrible, maybe a couple of shots in focus and the rest totally out of focus. I'll have to do this on a more organized fashion to see where the problem might be.

This is definitely a bug in the firmware.

I was really keen on focus stacking (focus shift in Nikon-speak) - in fact, it was one of my reasons for getting the Z7. Unfortunately, focus stacking is an ergonomic disaster. It looks like someone at Nikon had read that there was something called focus stacking, and wanted to be able to put it on the feature checklist, but didn't actually know anything about it. Presumably there weren't any smart people available to implement it who knew how focus stacking works.

The most annoying thing about it is that the live view goes away while you're setting it up, and there's no way to actually aim the camera before starting the sequence. This makes handheld focus stacks almost impossible.

This could easily be mitigated in firmware, by assigning the “start” action to a function button.

There’s more. At the default settings, the Z7 will take 100 photos at it’s “middle” focus step. If the 24-70 S lens is focused about 1.5 metres away, the first three shots will be focused on something this side of infinity. The remaining 97 frames will be focused past infinity.

Even on the smallest focus step, only five of those shots will be this side of infinity. Although the documentation claims that the sequence will stop when focus reaches infinity, it does not.

The minimum focus step is much too small.

 I can easily handhold well enough to do half a dozen shots at different focus distances, which is enough depth of field even for the very large canvas prints I make, if combined with stitching. I tried attaching this function to a control ... but I still get taken to the focus stack screen, and so I can't see what I'm trying to focus stack. Too bad - this would be such a simple firmware fix. More sensible control over the focus increments would be really handy too, and would also be easy to calculate in camera (if Nikon folks were interested, I'd be happy to help them out, as I have expertise in the area).
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: D Fuller on October 15, 2018, 10:00:52 pm
Did anybody tried properly the focus stacking/ shifting? I went through what I did and the results are terrible, maybe a couple of shots in focus and the rest totally out of focus. I'll have to do this on a more organized fashion to see where the problem might be.

I did this shot yesterday--Z7, 24-70S. It's a 21-image stack combined in Helicon Focus.

It worked very easily. I set the focus just shy of the nearest point on the orchid, and set the parameters for 25 images, with a focus interval of "1". The camera shifted focus toward infinity as it made the 25 shots. I chose 21 of them and processed in Helicon Focus at its defaults.

I really don't know what I'm doing here, These are the first stacked images I've ever made.

The second one is 100 images, with the same parameters. I don't like it as much as the first, but it certainly worked.

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1906/43536175640_81c4072013_b.jpg)

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1964/43536581490_b14f70b3f9_b.jpg" width="1024" height="1024" alt="Orchid Stack-3")
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: D Fuller on October 15, 2018, 10:10:10 pm
This is definitely a bug in the firmware.

I was really keen on focus stacking (focus shift in Nikon-speak) - in fact, it was one of my reasons for getting the Z7. Unfortunately, focus stacking is an ergonomic disaster. It looks like someone at Nikon had read that there was something called focus stacking, and wanted to be able to put it on the feature checklist, but didn't actually know anything about it. Presumably there weren't any smart people available to implement it who knew how focus stacking works.

The most annoying thing about it is that the live view goes away while you're setting it up, and there's no way to actually aim the camera before starting the sequence. This makes handheld focus stacks almost impossible.

This could easily be mitigated in firmware, by assigning the “start” action to a function button.

There’s more. At the default settings, the Z7 will take 100 photos at it’s “middle” focus step. If the 24-70 S lens is focused about 1.5 metres away, the first three shots will be focused on something this side of infinity. The remaining 97 frames will be focused past infinity.

Even on the smallest focus step, only five of those shots will be this side of infinity. Although the documentation claims that the sequence will stop when focus reaches infinity, it does not.

The minimum focus step is much too small.

 I can easily handhold well enough to do half a dozen shots at different focus distances, which is enough depth of field even for the very large canvas prints I make, if combined with stitching. I tried attaching this function to a control ... but I still get taken to the focus stack screen, and so I can't see what I'm trying to focus stack. Too bad - this would be such a simple firmware fix. More sensible control over the focus increments would be really handy too, and would also be easy to calculate in camera (if Nikon folks were interested, I'd be happy to help them out, as I have expertise in the area).

It certainly would be tricky to use the function hand-held, but on sticks, it's manageable. While you set up the parameters, you can hit the OK button and you'll get Live View back. The camera holds the parameters you've set, so you can get everything set up, check the shot, then start the sequence.

I have no idea what the focus interval scale indicates. But in my attempts, the camera started from where I was focussed and incremented toward infinity, so its actions seemed very logical to me. But again, I have no other experience with focus stacking to compare it to.

It does seem really odd that it requires that you work blind.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: HSakols on October 16, 2018, 07:57:42 pm
Thom Hogan said that Nikon does not recommend user sensor cleaning.  I've always used a sensor cleaning brush with my Nikon D800.  What are users supposed to use for the Z7?  There are times as a landscape photographer that I get dust on my sensor even after being very careful with lens switches. 
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 16, 2018, 08:31:45 pm
Thom Hogan said that Nikon does not recommend user sensor cleaning.  I've always used a sensor cleaning brush with my Nikon D800.  What are users supposed to use for the Z7?  There are times as a landscape photographer that I get dust on my sensor even after being very careful with lens switches.

I guess it's similar to the Olympus IBIS. Oly didn't recommend it either. Good that many found magical properties of the dust cleaning function and truth be told I have yet to obviously get my E-M5ii dirty enough to notice it and to require cleaning. One would hope Nikon will be as good.
If not, if the blower fails we face a difficult decision.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 16, 2018, 08:40:43 pm
I got to play a little with the 70-200 F4 via the FTZ adapter. Relatively well balanced, handles well.
For AF-S seems ok although in dimmer light it had issues locking focus, see attached shot where I was focusing on the cloud. For other subjects, see the combine shot, did ok.
For stationary objects with AF-C there was some hunting, will need to experiment more.


Overall the image quality is there. For slow focusing requirements tasks, such as landscape, will do the job. Is it worth it it? The Sony is probably a better value unless you have many Nikon lenses. It feels like it wasn't fully ready for prime time and just rushed it out to stop the leaking to other systems.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Rory on October 16, 2018, 10:34:48 pm
I have no idea what the focus interval scale indicates. But in my attempts, the camera started from where I was focussed and incremented toward infinity, so its actions seemed very logical to me. But again, I have no other experience with focus stacking to compare it to.

It does seem really odd that it requires that you work blind.

The focus interval refers to the amount of DOF overlap between images.  Try 4 - it gives a reasonable overlap.  The distance and aperture will change how many images are required, but the "interval" between images to achieve similar DOF overlap will remain constant.

Compared to the Olympus implementation the Nikon version is pathetic (on the D850).  My EM1.2 shows the progression in the LCD in real time and I can just press the shutter button again when the stacking has progressed through the subject.  However, if your stack has not made it all the way through the subject you can just start another stack and it will continue from where it left off.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: chez on October 16, 2018, 10:42:07 pm
I guess it's similar to the Olympus IBIS. Oly didn't recommend it either. Good that many found magical properties of the dust cleaning function and truth be told I have yet to obviously get my E-M5ii dirty enough to notice it and to require cleaning. One would hope Nikon will be as good.
If not, if the blower fails we face a difficult decision.

I've had dust in very humid situations that just stuck to the sensor and even a rocket blower would not budge it. I needed to swab the sensor. I'd really hate to send my camera into Nikon every time I got the sensor dirty...which would be 3 to 5 times a year. I change lenses when needed, even at the ocean shores where there is blowing sand and salt spray. I'd hate to have to skip changing lenses because I might get something on my sensor.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 16, 2018, 11:30:47 pm
I've had dust in very humid situations that just stuck to the sensor and even a rocket blower would not budge it. I needed to swab the sensor. I'd really hate to send my camera into Nikon every time I got the sensor dirty...which would be 3 to 5 times a year. I change lenses when needed, even at the ocean shores where there is blowing sand and salt spray. I'd hate to have to skip changing lenses because I might get something on my sensor.

Another reason why I like the E-M5ii with the 12-100, I don't really need to change the lens  ;)
Suddenly the lack of IBIS is not such a disadvantage anymore.

For Oly, or all other IBIS cameras, it depends how often it happens. Once a year, fine. Several times, not so much. My guess is that people will bite the bullet and risk voiding the warranty by doing the cleaning themselves. It will be challenging tough, I think for many IBIS cameras the sensor is quite mobile when the camera is turned off. A nice feature would be to "park" it upon shutdown, not only for ease of cleaning but also to avoid damage during transport.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: chez on October 17, 2018, 03:20:09 am
Another reason why I like the E-M5ii with the 12-100, I don't really need to change the lens  ;)
Suddenly the lack of IBIS is not such a disadvantage anymore.

For Oly, or all other IBIS cameras, it depends how often it happens. Once a year, fine. Several times, not so much. My guess is that people will bite the bullet and risk voiding the warranty by doing the cleaning themselves. It will be challenging tough, I think for many IBIS cameras the sensor is quite mobile when the camera is turned off. A nice feature would be to "park" it upon shutdown, not only for ease of cleaning but also to avoid damage during transport.

I've cleaned my A7R2 sensor that has ibis dozens of times with sensor swabs with no issues. Don't see what the problem is.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on October 17, 2018, 07:42:07 am
Also cleaned my IBIS enabled Sony many times. You run a cleaning cycle where the IBIS shakes to clear off dust. Once that finishes the sensor is “parked” and held firmly in place to enable cleaning without it wobbling about. Then you shut down the camera and the sensor is released from its parked mode.

Sure Nikon will have something similar.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 17, 2018, 09:04:28 am
I've cleaned my A7R2 sensor that has ibis dozens of times with sensor swabs with no issues. Don't see what the problem is.

Is it accepted by Sony without risk voiding your warranty?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: kers on October 17, 2018, 10:27:40 am
The sensor coverglass is expected to be far before the sensor- so less problems with dust .
The coverglass is sensitive and plastic-  vulnerable.

My d850 and j5 did not have to be cleaned after one year of usage other than by the camera or the blower.
and i change lenses very often and use f8-11 a lot.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 17, 2018, 10:45:12 am
The sensor coverglass is expected to be far before the sensor- so less problems with dust .
The coverglass is sensitive and plastic-  vulnerable.

Are you sure the coverglass is plastic? It doesn't sound right and seems like a bad idea, how is somebody going to clean it without scratching it?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 17, 2018, 10:55:40 am
more info here:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4327768#forum-post-61768339
http://www.sansmirror.com/articles/mirrorless-accessories/sensor-cleaning-in-mirrorle.html
http://www.sansmirror.com/cameras/camera-database/nikon-z-mirrorless-cameras/reader-questions-about-the.html

From the last link:
Quote
"Can I clean the sensor on my Z6/Z7?"

Yes. And Nikon did the right thing here: when the camera is off, the sensor VR is locked mechanically. Other IBIS type solutions I've seen to date don't lock the sensor position, which led Olympus to disclaim user sensor cleaning, while early Sony A7 models tended to have IBIS failures until Sony beefed up the mechanism.

So it least it's possible without breaking the IBIS.
Title: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: davidgp on October 17, 2018, 11:29:00 am
Is it accepted by Sony without risk voiding your warranty?

Sony says that for cleaning the sensor you go to an official Sony support like Nikon. I personally clean the sensor myself... luckily I have never had to test if my warranty is still valid...


http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: chez on October 17, 2018, 12:41:32 pm
Is it accepted by Sony without risk voiding your warranty?

No idea but I have not damaged anything and have cleaned my sensor dozens of times.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 17, 2018, 02:33:27 pm
My guess is it will be the same for all. You can clean it yourself but if you damage it, good luck.

Unless the coverglass is plastic as mentioned earlier it should be easier to clean with the larger mount and shorter flange.

So far I’ve cleaned a Nikon D750 and the X-T1/2 without obvious ill effects but not the E-M5ii which is IBIS.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Telecaster on October 17, 2018, 04:18:09 pm
I suspect the "don't clean your sensor" stuff is mostly manufacturer CYA. I've cleaned Sony A7r and Olympus E-M5 & E-M1 IBIS sensors multiple times each. The Sony's sensor was pretty gunked up the first time too (in the midst of a bad cold I coughed on it while changing lenses…yuk!). Just be gentle and careful about it.

-Dave-
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: HSakols on October 17, 2018, 08:36:58 pm
Armand thanks for the links and eveyone elses input.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 18, 2018, 07:31:29 am
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1954/45384948711_1db624d254_h.jpg)

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1965/45384948361_82053b8ddf_h.jpg)
Z7 + 35mm f1.8 S

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Slobodan Blagojevic on October 18, 2018, 09:18:11 am
What, you can’t read, Bernard!? 😂
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Rory on October 18, 2018, 10:27:53 am
Wildlife photographer Brad Hill Z7 review (http://www.naturalart.ca/voice/blog.html) (generally positive).
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on October 18, 2018, 11:13:39 am
On my DSLR I generally don't turn it off between photos so Ithe autoclean will be activated once per session. To save battery I turn off the Z7 between photos so the autoclean would be activated many times per session. Not sure if that is good or bad!!
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: kers on October 18, 2018, 12:09:55 pm
Wildlife photographer Brad Hill Z7 review (http://www.naturalart.ca/voice/blog.html) (generally positive).

Very informative review and indeed very positive:- he finds it better than the d850 for his purpose...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: D Fuller on October 25, 2018, 12:04:47 am
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1968/44820208734_d4bd637606_k.jpg)[/url]It Rained Today (https://flic.kr/p/2bhBhxy) by David Fuller (https://www.flickr.com/photos/59124344@N00/), on Flickr
Nikon Z7, 35mm f1.8S @ f2.8

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1921/43728180840_114b9b1001_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/29C7mGq)
Grafton Notch, Maine (https://flic.kr/p/29C7mGq) by David Fuller (https://www.flickr.com/photos/59124344@N00/), on Flickr
Nikon Z7, 24-70mm f4.0S @ f11, 27mm

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1962/30604635947_0f11cf7b8c_k.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/NCqL22)
Neon Leaves (https://flic.kr/p/NCqL22) by David Fuller (https://www.flickr.com/photos/59124344@N00/), on Flickr
Nikon Z7, 24-70mm f4.0S @ f4.5, 70mm

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Ray on October 25, 2018, 07:09:38 pm
The images certainly look very sharp, David, and the third image has a lovely mixture of colors. However, what attracts me about the new S lenses for the Z7, is their improved edge and corner sharpness. Have you investigated this issue and done comparisons with F mount lenses?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: John R on October 25, 2018, 09:39:07 pm
David, why Neon Leaves? Are you trying to demonstrate something or do you actually prefer over the top, unrealistic colors for a natural subject? I may go for the Nikon Z7 because I want to use my older manual lenses.

JR
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 25, 2018, 10:07:21 pm
https://diglloyd.com/blog/2018/20181024_1600-NikonZ35f1_8-conclusion.html

He is coming out impressed by the 35mm f1.8S and calls it one of the best 35mm lens from any brand, although it suffers from focus shift.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: 32BT on October 26, 2018, 03:00:16 am
Bernard, now that you have used your toys for a while, what are your impressions so far? How do you like the vf? Batterylife? Manual focus fbw & override?

And not unimportantly: what's your impression of the S lenses so far?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: SrMi on October 26, 2018, 05:34:54 am
https://diglloyd.com/blog/2018/20181024_1600-NikonZ35f1_8-conclusion.html

He is coming out impressed by the 35mm f1.8S and calls it one of the best 35mm lens from any brand, although it suffers from focus shift.

Cheers,
Bernard

As I understand it (I am not a subscriber), focus shift is pronounced only if you do Focusing wide open, and then close the aperture to take a picture. Normally, Z7 focuses at working aperture or f5.6, thus eliminating focus shift.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 26, 2018, 08:15:18 am
Bernard, now that you have used your toys for a while, what are your impressions so far? How do you like the vf? Batterylife? Manual focus fbw & override?

And not unimportantly: what's your impression of the S lenses so far?

In short:
- AF not bad but not at the level of D850/D5
- ergonomics very good
- EVF great
- battery life is a non issue
- manual focus ok but there is a lag (apparently due to focus by wire) so it’s hard to focus very quickly with S lenses. Problem isn’t there with native MF lenses such as the Otus
- S lenses are great technically and in terms of look

But I keep using my other cameras depending on the application so I have only shot a few thousand frames so far.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: SrMi on October 26, 2018, 08:56:29 am
In short:
- AF not bad but not at the level of D850/D5
- ergonomics very good
- EVF great
- battery life is a non issue
- manual focus ok but there is a lag (apparently due to focus by wire) so it’s hard to focus very quickly with S lenses. Problem isn’t there with native MF lenses such as the Otus
- S lenses are great technically and in terms of look

But I keep using my other cameras depending on the application so I have only shot a few thousand frames so far.

Cheers,
Bernard

Are you using the latest FW1.0.1? People are reporting that, among other things, the focusing lag has been reduced.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: D Fuller on October 26, 2018, 01:08:32 pm
David, why Neon Leaves? Are you trying to demonstrate something or do you actually prefer over the top, unrealistic colors for a natural subject? I may go for the Nikon Z7 because I want to use my older manual lenses.

JR

Neon Leaves is absolutely just for fun.

But the camera works really well with my manual Nikkors. Focus peaking and VF magnification make focusing them a real pleasure.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: D Fuller on October 26, 2018, 01:27:27 pm
The images certainly look very sharp, David, and the third image has a lovely mixture of colors. However, what attracts me about the new S lenses for the Z7, is their improved edge and corner sharpness. Have you investigated this issue and done comparisons with F mount lenses?

I’ve been using the two S lenses and the F-Mount 70-200 f2.8 VRII mostly. My feeling about the S lenses is that they are very clean. They seem sharp everywhere, and seem to have very little color cast. I think this is even more true for the 35mm than for the 24-70. That lens has a clarity that seems quite special. I’m sure part of the color observation is due to the camera's improved white balance algorithms; that seems to me to be a significant, if subtle step. But I do think the lens plays a part as well.

I have been very impressed with the performance of the 70-200 on the Z. Focus is very quick, even using the TC14. (I think I have v2 of that.) that’s a very sharp lens as well, and seems very much at home on the camera.

I have a good set of AI primes, which are, of course, not in the same class as those three lenses in terms of sharpness (especially wide open) but which are a pleasure to focus with the EVF. I’ll post some images with them when I get a bit of time.

I’ve been meaning to do a head-to-head comparison with my 24-70 f2.8 (non VR version) but haven’t gotten to that yet.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Michael Erlewine on October 26, 2018, 08:05:55 pm
As I understand it (I am not a subscriber), focus shift is pronounced only if you do Focusing wide open, and then close the aperture to take a picture. Normally, Z7 focuses at working aperture or f5.6, thus eliminating focus shift.

More recent posts take some of that back.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: SrMi on October 27, 2018, 06:27:13 am
More recent posts take some of that back.

Yes, it seems to have been just wishful thinking.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: D Fuller on October 28, 2018, 02:39:49 pm
Yes, it seems to have been just wishful thinking.
Kasson seems to think the focus shift is not very significant at all. 35 mm f/1.8 Nikkor S focus shift (https://blog.kasson.com/gfx-50s/35-mm-f-1-8-nikkor-s-focus-shift/)

Is he mistaken?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: D Fuller on October 28, 2018, 02:50:09 pm
A couple of images taken on the Z7 with my Nikon 20mm f2.8 AI-S lens. These were wide open, a bit after sunset. 1/25th @ iso800.

It's a real pleasure to focus manual lenses on this camera. But I do wish Nikon had put aperture indexing into the FTZ adapter. Especially as they still sell some AI-S lenses.

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1979/43785046310_4c8f587dd2_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/29H8NPy)
Rye Grass (https://flic.kr/p/29H8NPy) by David Fuller (https://www.flickr.com/photos/59124344@N00/), on Flickr

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1917/43785518510_1e60a4666a_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/29HbebW)
Rye Grass B&amp;W (https://flic.kr/p/29HbebW) by David Fuller (https://www.flickr.com/photos/59124344@N00/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: SrMi on October 28, 2018, 05:45:29 pm
Kasson seems to think the focus shift is not very significant at all. 35 mm f/1.8 Nikkor S focus shift (https://blog.kasson.com/gfx-50s/35-mm-f-1-8-nikkor-s-focus-shift/)

Is he mistaken?

I don't think Jim Kasson is wrong. Lloyd's focus shift analysis is not public, therefore I cannot judge his findings.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 28, 2018, 11:19:19 pm
I have had the chance to spend more time with the Z7 and 35mm f1.8 S and it seems that silent shooting mode really helps to tap into the resolution potential of the sensor and lens. Just as I experienced this, I have read this post from Jim Kasson who confirms the point beautiffully:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/61851364

This experience confirms my intuition that the Z7 is really and M10 killer, it excels at this stealth street shooting kind of photography with pretty amazing results.

It also works wonders as a complement to my Hasselblad MF set up.

I did apply 1.01 before the shoot, not sure I noticed any fundamental change, but I didn't look for any really.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: D Fuller on October 28, 2018, 11:22:44 pm
I don't think Jim Kasson is wrong. Lloyd's focus shift analysis is not public, therefore I cannot judge his findings.

I can’t see Lloyd’s article either. I used to subscribe to some of his blogs, but he’s priced himself out of my willingness to play along.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: KLaban on October 29, 2018, 05:26:48 am
I have had the chance to spend more time with the Z7 and 35mm f1.8 S and it seems that silent shooting mode really helps to tap into the resolution potential of the sensor and lens. Just as I experienced this, I have read this post from Jim Kasson who confirms the point beautiffully:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/61851364

This experience confirms my intuition that the Z7 is really and M10 killer it excels at this stealth street shooting kind of photography with pretty amazing results.,

It also works wonders as a complement to my Hasselblad MF set up.

I did apply 1.01 before the shoot, not sure I noticed any fundamental change, but I didn't look for any really.

Cheers,
Bernard

Cameras don't excel at this stealth street shooting kind of photography: however some people do.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 29, 2018, 05:40:00 am
Cameras don't excel at this stealth street shooting kind of photography: however some people do.

Yes, you are right of course. But camera can or not hinder this ability.

And once you have managed to be stealth, you are still hoping to be able to capture the scene with very high quality, reasonnably compact lenses, in low light,...

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: KLaban on October 29, 2018, 06:38:44 am
Yes, you are right of course. But camera can or not hinder this ability.

And once you have managed to be stealth, you are still hoping to be able to capture the scene with very high quality, reasonnably compact lenses, in low light,...

Cheers,
Bernard

I'm not sure the Masters of street photography were hindered by their cameras.

If modern cameras were a measure of competency then we'd all be Masters and have no excuses.   
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: KLaban on October 29, 2018, 08:38:45 am
BTW, this is what I'd call compact.

(http://thumb1.zeppy.io/d/l400/pict/163283409370/leica-summicron-m-1-2-35-asph-35mm-m)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 29, 2018, 03:08:07 pm
UPDATES

Focus shift
- if you focus at 1-2m away with about 4 shots and step 2 you will have things in focus up to 30-50m which is most of DOF that I would want. This is valid for 24-28mm. Go to ~ 35mm and you will need 5 shots.
I'll need to further experiment but this seems like a good starting point.


Postprocessing in LR
- the default import seems to change the contrast from shot to shot
- the default import sharpening has a very large radius at 2, with details at 25% and noise reduction at 25.
Any thoughts on these?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 29, 2018, 03:37:19 pm
Few focus shifts from today
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: John Camp on October 29, 2018, 05:49:56 pm
I'm not sure the Masters of street photography were hindered by their cameras.

If modern cameras were a measure of competency then we'd all be Masters and have no excuses.

Really? Most of the masters of film-era street photography chose Leicas, because they were small and handy. Ignoring for a moment news photographers like Weegee who some might consider related to street photography, the masters didn't choose 4x5s, because then they would have been hindered. So, apparently, they were making the best tech choices they could at the time.

Nobody (so far) has argued that modern cameras are a measure of competency; only that some cameras might be a wiser choice for street photography than others. That seems to me to be obvious, and is the reason I shoot Panasonic GX8s when shooting street, rather than dragging my D800 around with the f2.8 zooms that look like bazookas. I'm interested in the Z7 and maybe the Z6 or maybe one of each, but right now I'm still hung up on the size of the Nikon Z lenses, because I'm afraid that the size, even if smaller than the F-mount lenses, might be a hinderance.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: KLaban on October 29, 2018, 06:19:52 pm
Really? Most of the masters of film-era street photography chose Leicas, because they were small and handy. Ignoring for a moment news photographers like Weegee who some might consider related to street photography, the masters didn't choose 4x5s, because then they would have been hindered. So, apparently, they were making the best tech choices they could at the time.

Nobody (so far) has argued that modern cameras are a measure of competency; only that some cameras might be a wiser choice for street photography than others. That seems to me to be obvious, and is the reason I shoot Panasonic GX8s when shooting street, rather than dragging my D800 around with the f2.8 zooms that look like bazookas. I'm interested in the Z7 and maybe the Z6 or maybe one of each, but right now I'm still hung up on the size of the Nikon Z lenses, because I'm afraid that the size, even if smaller than the F-mount lenses, might be a hinderance.

I suggested that the Masters weren't hindered by their cameras of choice which as you suggested were often Leicas. They happen to be my cameras of choice for similar reasons in similar circumstances. What Bernard, you or I see as an advantage or hindrance in camera choice doesn't necessarily apply to all.

I suggested that modern cameras were not a measure of competency, for if they were we'd all be Masters. I also suggested that cameras don't excel at stealth street photography but rather that some people do.

How do we differ?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: SrMi on October 30, 2018, 03:34:33 am
UPDATES

Focus shift
- if you focus at 1-2m away with about 4 shots and step 2 you will have things in focus up to 30-50m which is most of DOF that I would want. This is valid for 24-28mm. Go to ~ 35mm and you will need 5 shots.
I'll need to further experiment but this seems like a good starting point.


Postprocessing in LR
- the default import seems to change the contrast from shot to shot
- the default import sharpening has a very large radius at 2, with details at 25% and noise reduction at 25.
Any thoughts on these?

The number of shots required depends also on the aperture used, AFAIK.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: kers on October 30, 2018, 06:10:00 am
I have noticed with the d850 that Nikon has some sort of algoritm that calculates the focus jumps depending on the aperture and type of lens.
The effect: step 4 would be sufficient most of the time.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 30, 2018, 12:27:21 pm
The number of shots required depends also on the aperture used, AFAIK.

Forgot to say, I used F8 only.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on October 30, 2018, 01:46:09 pm
LensRentals' teardown is up...

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2018/10/teardown-of-the-nikon-z7-mirrorless-camera/

He usually doesn't like weather sealing, but he liked this one. It's a D850, if not a D5.

I got caught in a downpour for a few minutes yesterday, and (as expected) no problem...

Dan
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on October 30, 2018, 02:53:47 pm
LensRentals' teardown is up...

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2018/10/teardown-of-the-nikon-z7-mirrorless-camera/

He usually doesn't like weather sealing, but he liked this one. It's a D850, if not a D5.

I got caught in a downpour for a few minutes yesterday, and (as expected) no problem...

Dan

Compare with Tony Northrup's claim that the Z7 is a "consumer level" body.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 30, 2018, 05:09:29 pm
The quality of the build illustrates the amount of strategic thinking Nikon has put in these cameras and how serious they are about mirrorless compared to Canon for instance.

The way the camera is built is vastly different from previous Nikon cameras and uses best in class technology together with a rugged frame and best in class weather sealing.

One could argue that this is normal at the price point of the Z7, but this goes to show how much of a bargain the Z6 is.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: HSakols on October 31, 2018, 09:00:40 am
Doesn't one have an AA filter and the other does not?  I'm not sure why the difference.  I settled on the Z7 mainly for the ISO 64. 
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: davidgp on October 31, 2018, 09:59:00 am
The quality of the build illustrates the amount of strategic thinking Nikon has put in these cameras and how serious they are about mirrorless compared to Canon for instance.

Canon put the EOS R at the same level as the 5D or 6D... same level of weather sealing. If you want a really good weather sealed camera in Canon you need to go with 1D series...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: 32BT on October 31, 2018, 10:18:31 am
Far more interesting than weathersealing is lensdrawing. So far it seems the Canon lenses are winning the rendering game. Now that both systems have become available i'm ready for a direct, head-to-head, shoot out comparison.

Anyone done that yet? Or have any links?

(And no, i have no bias. As far as i'm concerned they should have given us a Nikon camera with EOS R mount and lenses. True Nikanon/Canikon!)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 31, 2018, 10:18:43 am
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1938/31777235798_b89d37b21f_h.jpg)
Nikon Z7

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: KLaban on October 31, 2018, 10:29:43 am
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1938/31777235798_b89d37b21f_h.jpg)
Nikon Z7

Cheers,
Bernard

Is that dark banding in the top left of the image?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 31, 2018, 10:42:38 am
Is that dark banding in the top left of the image?

That's a wooden ceiling... ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: KLaban on October 31, 2018, 11:52:03 am
That's a wooden ceiling... ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Glad to hear it!
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 31, 2018, 12:45:43 pm
Few more focus shifts.
There is very little focus breathing with the 24-70, at least under 35mm and at medium distances, 1m to 20m, in some sequences practically none.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on October 31, 2018, 03:54:15 pm
I'm not sure that the level of build and sealing in the Z7 is "normal" even at the Z7's price. It's certainly not unheard of (D850, 5DmkIV is at least close, D5 and 1D series). and it's occasionally found even on cheaper cameras (OM-D E-M1 mkII, Pentax K1, maybe top Fujis) - but no 5D before the latest was even close, no Leica except perhaps for the medium format S is close on the sealing (gem-like build but limited or no seals), and no Sony is close...

Once you get above about $1500-$2000, comprehensive weather sealing starts to show up, but it's not a given...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 31, 2018, 05:01:09 pm
Indeed.

Now the key aspect highlighted by this test wasn’t the weather sealing, it was how well the camera its built compared to its mirrorless competitors.

This points at the quality of the engineering, the reliability, the margins,... and overall at the level of investment of Nikon in mirrorless.

The Z7 and Z6 aren’t half baked “let’s repackage D600 tech and stick an EVF”, this is a totally new generation of Nikon camera from the ground up. They are all in.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 31, 2018, 06:00:57 pm
Quote
They are all in.

If only they didn't try so hard to protect the D850.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on October 31, 2018, 06:14:29 pm
I suspect Canon of being all in as well, but having missed a deadline on a body - could it be the sensor that missed, and how far off is it? The existing EOS-R is probably the low-end model of a pair of bodies they were planning to release? The reason for that speculation is that the Canon lenses are too nice (and too high-spec) to really belong with a 6DII with an EVF.

If I had to guess what the "missing body" is, it's something like a mirrorless 5Ds, although with a somewhat improved sensor. It'll be a worthy competitor to the Z7 when it emerges.

The little 35mm macro makes sense with this body, and, while the 24-105 doesn't really, it fits with an established Canon pattern of "super-kit" lenses that are big, heavy and expensive for a kit lens, but also offer excellent image quality. The similar EF 24-105 is a common kit lens with both the 6DII and the 5DIV, and the smaller EF 24-70 f4 is much newer than the first version of the 24-105 - they went with only relatively large standard zooms for years on EF.

The two big, expensive lenses (a 50mm over 2 lbs for $2299, a 28-70 over 3 lbs for $2999, both extremely fast) make no sense with this body.

If we think of a body that makes sense with those lenses and the innovative adapters, it would probably be a bit bigger and heavier than the EOS R (more the size of the new Panasonics than the Z7), with 5D series build quality or better. Might it have IBIS?  Priced around $4000? I haven't heard anything about such a body, but it makes sense with the lenses, and I can't see what else would...

At least my personal suspicion is that Canon was originally planning to release two bodies and four (or five) lenses to start - if there's a missing lens, it might be a 24-70 f4 (or variable aperture) that provides a lightweight companion to the EOS R.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on October 31, 2018, 07:59:10 pm
If only they didn't try so hard to protect the D850.

How exactly are they doing that?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on October 31, 2018, 09:26:38 pm
How exactly are they doing that?

Cheers,
Bernard

Several small things, including their marketing that Z7 is an addition and not a replacement. Here is a good starting point: https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/a-few-more-thoughts-on.html

Some might blame it on the first generation thing but I'm not that generous, after all it's more expensive than a D850.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on October 31, 2018, 11:02:59 pm
Nobody ever accused Nikon of understanding marketing...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: johnvanatta on November 01, 2018, 12:10:20 am
At least my personal suspicion is that Canon was originally planning to release two bodies and four (or five) lenses to start - if there's a missing lens, it might be a 24-70 f4 (or variable aperture) that provides a lightweight companion to the EOS R.

I think Nikon was planning on having more at launch, too. Certainly at least the 50/1.8, but there are also multiple bits of marketing material with the 58 Noct too, as part of a 4-lens family.

Development for the Z obviously has been going on for years, but my hunch is that Canon and Nikon (and Panasonic, incidentally) got spooked by something more recently and moved up their timetables by months.

I don't think the Z7 was crippled at all. The autofocus issues look more like rushed software, and there's absolutely no room for another card slot. The $3400 price is absolutely about skimming from early adopters, it won't hold up once the competition really gets going a year or so in. As for the messaging, what else could Nikon tell their many, many DSLR customers except "of course we'll keep making DSLRs"? And they will, too, so it's not even particularly disingenuous.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 01, 2018, 01:37:10 am
Several small things, including their marketing that Z7 is an addition and not a replacement. Here is a good starting point: https://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/a-few-more-thoughts-on.html

Some might blame it on the first generation thing but I'm not that generous, after all it's more expensive than a D850.

I don't think that this is about protecting the D850, this is about protecting the upcoming Z8/Z9.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: kers on November 01, 2018, 07:05:33 am
The Z cameras bring the 35mm and 50mm lens that are better than their DSLR counterparts...
But not as good as the Zeiss lenses if i may believe Lloyd Chambers ( blog info - i am not a subscriber)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: HSakols on November 01, 2018, 08:57:26 am
As a landscape person, my one gribe with the Z7 is fact that I have to reset the exposure delay timer each time I turn the camera off.   Is there anyway to keep it fixed at a 2 second delay.  I always work from a tripod and I've turned IBIS off.  This is quite an upgrade from a D800!  Working with the images in Lightroom are a real joy. 
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on November 01, 2018, 01:05:46 pm
As a landscape person, my one gribe with the Z7 is fact that I have to reset the exposure delay timer each time I turn the camera off.   Is there anyway to keep it fixed at a 2 second delay.  I always work from a tripod and I've turned IBIS off.  This is quite an upgrade from a D800!  Working with the images in Lightroom are a real joy.

We can add this to things to change in a firmware update although, as I said before, Nikon is unlikely to do such a thing.
The fact that in focus stacking you lose the live view is also quite annoying if you want to shoot handheld, I'm more comfortable now from a tripod.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on November 01, 2018, 01:08:00 pm
I don't think that this is about protecting the D850, this is about protecting the upcoming Z8/Z9.

Cheers,
Bernard

Regardless, it feels they didn't give their best shot. And if they did this to protect the future Z8/9 then it means it's even worse, they will have zero incentive to update the firmware and correct some of these things.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 01, 2018, 05:30:22 pm
Regardless, it feels they didn't give their best shot. And if they did this to protect the future Z8/9 then it means it's even worse, they will have zero incentive to update the firmware and correct some of these things.

There are 3 categories among the gaps mentioned by Thom:
- market segmentation related (typically hardware related) or technical consequences of the compact body size: the camera size/single card decision, the number of frame per second, the buffer size,...
- voluntarily improvements/simplifications designed to improve the experience (that may be bad ideas): the logic of AF control, in particular tracking
- aspects where the performance isn’t at D850 level: mostly AF speed and battery life

In my view we may get firmware improvements for type 3 and possibly specs tuning for type 2.

Whether type 1 is designed to differentiate from the D850 or the Z8, whether these design decisions are meant or mere limitations resulting from the compacter body are not obvious questions.

As a result I find it a bit abrupt and unsubstantiated to blame Nikon for trying to protect the D850.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on November 01, 2018, 06:37:38 pm
There are 3 categories among the gaps mentioned by Thom:
- market segmentation related (typically hardware related) or technical consequences of the compact body size: the camera size/single card decision, the number of frame per second, the buffer size,...
- voluntarily improvements/simplifications designed to improve the experience (that may be bad ideas): the logic of AF control, in particular tracking
- aspects where the performance isn’t at D850 level: mostly AF speed and battery life

In my view we may get firmware improvements for type 3 and possibly specs tuning for type 2.

Whether type 1 is designed to differentiate from the D850 or the Z8, whether these design decisions are meant or mere limitations resulting from the compacter body are not obvious questions.

As a result I find it a bit abrupt and unsubstantiated to blame Nikon for trying to protect the D850.

Cheers,
Bernard

But it's not abrupt, I've been saying this all along.
I still got the camera as it can serve a specific purpose for me but it could and should have been more.
As for unsubstantiated, read again. There are clear reasons, and there are multiple people saying this. FYI, I don't care that much about the limitations of the body size and all that come with it (that would have been a deal breaker). I care more about focus and usability.
I'm learning to work around some limitations and get it do more, maybe I'll get warmer. I already did at some extent compared to when I got it and was really close to send it back.

You are too protective with what Nikon does, like a personal protegee. They are big boys, they should be able to handle criticism.

Lastly, do you truly think Nikon will follow the footsteps of other companies and offer firmware updates that truly improve the product and not just just fix some glaring problems? As far as I recall they never did it.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 01, 2018, 07:11:45 pm
I am not sure how writing that Nikon specced the Z7 in anticipation of the Z8 is more protective of Nikon that writing that they specced the Z7 to preserve D850 sales.

Those are just two different explanation about the way they perceive their current and future line-up.

One is the right one. In think Thom is wrong on this.

I don't think I am in denial of the shortcomings of the Z7, my list clearly acknowledges them doesn't it?

On your last point, it is clear that Nikon doesn't have a good track record in terms of delivering features through firmware updates (although they did add vertical/horizontal line group AF to the D5), but they did improve the D800 AF through firmware, so I so believe there is a real possibility for AF and power consumption. The 2 topics are obviously related because AF is pretty much CPU cycles and that relates to power usage.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Telecaster on November 01, 2018, 09:23:35 pm
I think Nikon's (and Canon's) hurry up! mirrorless offerings are less about protecting other products in their own lineups and more about trying to put the brakes on Sony now, while they still have a chance at staying in the game.

-Dave-
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: hogloff on November 01, 2018, 09:37:51 pm
I think Nikon's (and Canon's) hurry up! mirrorless offerings are less about protecting other products in their own lineups and more about trying to put the brakes on Sony now, while they still have a chance at staying in the game.

-Dave-

I agree with this. If Sony was not in the game...does anyone really think either Canon or Nikon would have a full frame mirrorless offering?

They had no choice. The writings on the wall that there is a movement now to mirror less cameras...driven in the full frame market by Sony. CaNikon had no choice but to enter this market or be in danger of being left holding the bag.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 01, 2018, 10:20:30 pm
I think Nikon's (and Canon's) hurry up! mirrorless offerings are less about protecting other products in their own lineups and more about trying to put the brakes on Sony now, while they still have a chance at staying in the game.

I am really at a loss as to why Nikon and Canon are considered similarly on this front.

The R is no where near the Z in terms of specs and technological progress.

Yes, the Z is not at the level of the a7rIII on all fronts, but it is superior (or at least equal) in terms of:
- image quality (which remains an important aspect of cameras)
- mount potential (gap similar to the one between F mount and EOS)
- usability/UI/body quality feel
- ruggedness
- EVF (and the gap is significant)
- video specs and video AF
- build quality/manufacturing technology
- adaptability of third party lenses thanks to its much thinner cover glass
- image stabilization

It does fall behind in terms of
- AF speed and usability
- battery life (but its battery life is good enough for most usages)
- shooting speed (but the speed is sufficient for general usage)
- lack of double battery card

The importance of these will vary from person to person, and I do understand that some shooters find the a7rIII to be vastly superior do to eye AF alone (and I would tend to agree), but, at least, how can Nikon be looked at as not being fully in in mirrorless with what they have delivered this time around?

If you try to draw a similar comparison table with the Canon you'll easily see that they are the ones slowing down with close to zero investement compared to what they already had elsewhere. How is the R not mostly a piecing together of an M, a 6DII and a 5DMkIV, none of that, except some aspects of the AF, being close to best in class?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: DP on November 01, 2018, 10:40:42 pm
- EVF (and the gap is significant)

I did not follow the spec closely - where is the significant gap in EVF ?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 02, 2018, 12:51:31 am
I did not follow the spec closely - where is the significant gap in EVF ?

I advise you to try both cameras side to side. The resolution is similar but the experience is quite different.

Don’t take my word for it, please see for yourself.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Michael Erlewine on November 02, 2018, 03:54:06 am
I advise you to try both cameras side to side. The resolution is similar but the experience is quite different.

Don’t take my word for it, please see for yourself.

Cheers,
Bernard

I agree with Bernard. I have owned the Sony A7s, A7r2, A7r3, and both the Hasselblad and Fujifilm mirrorless and the Nikon Z7 (in my opinion) is the superior camera by far. It is a lovely piece of work.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Manoli on November 02, 2018, 03:57:36 am
- adaptability of third party lenses thanks to its much thinner cover glass

Do we know what the thickness of the cover glass is ?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 02, 2018, 04:13:35 am
Do we know what the thickness of the cover glass is ?

Looks like it is 1.1mm.

https://diglloyd.com/blog/2018/20181031_1430-ZeissZM35f1_4-NikonZ7.html

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Manoli on November 02, 2018, 05:19:26 am
Looks like it is 1.1mm.

Thanks, Bernard.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: SrMi on November 02, 2018, 06:53:25 am
As a landscape person, my one gribe with the Z7 is fact that I have to reset the exposure delay timer each time I turn the camera off.   Is there anyway to keep it fixed at a 2 second delay.  I always work from a tripod and I've turned IBIS off.  This is quite an upgrade from a D800!  Working with the images in Lightroom are a real joy.

Instead of Self-Timer, you can uses d4: Exposure Delay Mode. At least with 1.0.1, Exposure Delay Mode does not get reset when turning camera off/on.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Michael Erlewine on November 02, 2018, 06:56:44 am
Instead of Self-Timer, you can uses d4: Exposure Delay Mode. At least with 1.0.1, Exposure Delay Mode does not get reset when turning camera off/on.

I like and use the corded external remote.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Mike Dale on November 02, 2018, 08:02:52 am
There’s such a thing a criticism and there’s such a thing as incessant whining. People need to accept the Z7 for what it is, nobody forced anyone to buy it. I’ve already sold my A7Riii with zero regrets.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: kers on November 02, 2018, 08:49:24 am
I don't think Nikon held back on the Z7 en Z6.
They did there ultimate best to produce a camera that can compete in a strong field.
It would anyway not wise to do so, since a successor (z8) may take another 2 years ( Olympics 2020) and the competiton will move forward.
There are two simple reasons the camera has more to offer than a d850; IBIS and the Z lenses, small and good.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on November 02, 2018, 09:48:15 am
I like and use the corded external remote.

I would too but when there are some rain drops out there I don't want to take the risk and a cover is an added complication for few drops.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on November 02, 2018, 12:54:42 pm
I finally went through all the menus on the Z7 and for the first time I decided to play with the U1-3 settings.

I set U1 - landscape on a tripod, U2 - portraits, U3 - action, with all the settings I think would use. When I switch between them the shooting image area doesn't change. For the fun of it I changed to 5:4 for portraits, the others are FX. Is there a special setting to transfer this or I need to change it every time?

PS. Initially I also had issues getting the exposure delay mode to change but now it's working, I'm not sure what I did.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Telecaster on November 02, 2018, 02:01:09 pm
I am really at a loss as to why Nikon and Canon are considered similarly on this front.

The differences between the two brands' initial mirrorless offerings just tell you the different states of development both were in when the decisions came down to release something now. Nikon was further along in bodies. I think the cameras that come next will be better indicators of where the two companies really plan to go with mirrorless.

-Dave-
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: kers on November 02, 2018, 02:08:03 pm
What would make the Z7 even more attractive, is a tilt/shift adapter for F-mount.
I am sure it is just a matter of time for it will arrive ; it would be very useful for a large number of lenses.


Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on November 02, 2018, 02:31:17 pm
A T/S adapter is optically tricky, due to coverage limitations on existing Nikkors. Most wider lenses probably barely cover 24x36mm without taking shift into account. Most telephotos have some extra coverage, but many probably have baffles limiting them to 24x36mm, to prevent reflections inside the camera body.

Dan
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: davidgp on November 02, 2018, 03:54:57 pm
I am really at a loss as to why Nikon and Canon are considered similarly on this front.

I agree with Telecaster comment... Canon and Nikon move is, between several reasons, to make people to stop switching to Sony and make Sony not continue to take users from their camp... probably primary from Canon...

It is not about which camera it is better or worst, it is about, hey!!! Do you want a mirrorless fullframe? Here you have one from your actual brand...



http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: faberryman on November 02, 2018, 04:03:26 pm
The differences between the two brands' initial mirrorless offerings just tell you the different states of development both were in when the decisions came down to release something now. Nikon was further along in bodies. I think the cameras that come next will be better indicators of where the two companies really plan to go with mirrorless.
So wait two or three years for a better indication? It's not like the competition is going to be standing still.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 02, 2018, 04:45:04 pm
The differences between the two brands' initial mirrorless offerings just tell you the different states of development both were in when the decisions came down to release something now. Nikon was further along in bodies. I think the cameras that come next will be better indicators of where the two companies really plan to go with mirrorless.

Yes, that may be the case, but as far as I am concerned their initial release tells me that Nikon is dead serious while Canon for now still looks like the Canon we’ve kown the past 10 years. Some appealing lenses but no worthwhile bodies to mount them on. Something akin to an expensive version of Sigma.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: John Camp on November 02, 2018, 07:42:09 pm
Yes, that may be the case, but as far as I am concerned their initial release tells me that Nikon is dead serious while Canon for now still looks like the Canon we’ve kown the past 10 years. Some appealing lenses but no worthwhile bodies to mount them on. Something akin to an expensive version of Sigma.

Cheers,
Bernard

Maybe there are some advantages to having only one thing you can do well.  :o
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: DP on November 02, 2018, 07:43:50 pm
I advise you to try both cameras side to side. The resolution is similar but the experience is quite different.

Don’t take my word for it, please see for yourself.

Cheers,
Bernard

I see... 2x2 = 5 when a dear Nikon gear is involved...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Telecaster on November 02, 2018, 10:23:46 pm
So wait two or three years for a better indication? It's not like the competition is going to be standing still.

I bet the next bodies will show up sooner rather than later. The current cameras are in the category of "stanch the bleeding so we can treat the injury."  ;)

-Dave-
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: D Fuller on November 02, 2018, 10:57:57 pm
I'm not sure that the level of build and sealing in the Z7 is "normal" even at the Z7's price. It's certainly not unheard of (D850, 5DmkIV is at least close, D5 and 1D series). and it's occasionally found even on cheaper cameras (OM-D E-M1 mkII, Pentax K1, maybe top Fujis) - but no 5D before the latest was even close, no Leica except perhaps for the medium format S is close on the sealing (gem-like build but limited or no seals), and no Sony is close...

Once you get above about $1500-$2000, comprehensive weather sealing starts to show up, but it's not a given...

I’m not so sure this is trie. The Leica SL is reported to have superb weather sealing.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 02, 2018, 11:30:50 pm
I see... 2x2 = 5 when a dear Nikon gear is involved...

Your words.

There are objective reasons why it should be better (starting with the optics) and the experience confirms it.

Again, just try it out yourself if you don’t believe my judgement is objective.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: HSakols on November 03, 2018, 05:04:01 pm
Quote
Instead of Self-Timer, you can uses d4: Exposure Delay Mode. At least with 1.0.1, Exposure Delay Mode does not get reset when turning camera off/on.

Thank you! 
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 04, 2018, 07:29:42 am
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4828/45637544982_0632cf40b0_h.jpg)
Z7 + 35mm f1.8 S

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on November 05, 2018, 09:58:36 am
What is the video capability of the Z7? Not much being said about it on this forum. Easy to use? Quality? I am being pushed into doing video for some clients and have to pay more attention to this than I did in the past. Enjoying it actually.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Michael Erlewine on November 05, 2018, 10:05:52 am
What is the video capability of the Z7? Not much being said about it on this forum. Easy to use? Quality? I am being pushed into doing video for some clients and have to pay more attention to this than I did in the past. Enjoying it actually.
the Z7 has the best video to date from Nikon. It has the ablility through HDM port to send 4K 10-bit 4:2:2 video to an external recorder like the Atomos Ninja or Shogan recorders. It is worth reading more about than I am remarking here. I might sell my fs5 Sony camcorder and just use the Z7 for the small amount of video I am doing these days.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 05, 2018, 07:13:49 pm
The Z7 is pretty good, the Z6 will be even better sidewise.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: D Fuller on November 05, 2018, 07:38:44 pm
What is the video capability of the Z7? Not much being said about it on this forum. Easy to use? Quality? I am being pushed into doing video for some clients and have to pay more attention to this than I did in the past. Enjoying it actually.

The video quality is very good for a camera in its class. It’s generally as food as the Sony a7r3, but better in that it’s autofocus seems to be more controllable in terms of speed, so focus shifts can look better, and it seems to be better at choosing the right thing to focus on if you’re not shooting faces. It also has 10-bit external recording capability, which makes the video more gradeable than the Sony’s. On the negative side, N-log seems to be Nikon’s own idea of what Log should be, (like Sony’s S-log2) whereas Sony’s S-log3 conforms to Cineon spec. So Nikon’s log takes more custom work, but with 10 bits, it has the headroom to withstand much more custom grading work than the Sony.

The native lenses are quite good for video, as long as you don’t want to focus manually. They don’t breathe, and they’re quiet when they focus. F-mount lenses are a mixed bag in that regard. As always, I recommend testing.

My gimbal kit is now the Z7 with the native 24-70 f/4 and a Sony a7r3 with the Zeiss 16-35 f/4, and the Z7 with the 35 f/1.8 in low light.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on November 06, 2018, 01:31:46 am
Thanks for the reply’s regarding video. I think I may wait to see what the rumoured new A7s looks like before deciding.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on November 06, 2018, 12:01:51 pm
Or, if you're video-centered, it may be wise to see what the new L-mount Panasonics offer... I've written that I can't see where they fit in the picture for stills (much bigger than a Z or a Sony with a sensor that is (at best) as good, probably slower AF (CDAF only), and a brand-new lens line with no obvious adaptability).

On the other hand, I CAN see how they fit for video, and it's potentially really exciting. Panasonic has historically had the best video capability of any make, and they could really leverage that here. The S1r sensor should have enough resolution for 8K, although that would be very hard to record or display, so I suspect it'll be used for oversampled 4K instead. The XQD card has enough bandwidth to record 4K raw, and that seems likely, as well as some very good compression ratios. 4K slo-mo with a lot of options seems likely as well.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 07, 2018, 06:37:48 pm
Iridient développer 3.3 now supports the Z7.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: D White on November 10, 2018, 08:35:52 pm
Yes, that may be the case, but as far as I am concerned their initial release tells me that Nikon is dead serious while Canon for now still looks like the Canon we’ve kown the past 10 years. Some appealing lenses but no worthwhile bodies to mount them on. Something akin to an expensive version of Sigma.

Cheers,
Bernard

On this I totally agree. It was sort of sad to dump most of my rather good Canon lenses as there was no body to continue using them on and life is too short to wait forever. So far I am very happy with the jump to Sony and the GM lenses I acquired. In about a week I should have my 400f2.8GM.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on November 10, 2018, 11:53:55 pm
Canon may yet be serious - I suspect we haven't seen the body those lenses were made for... A couple of rumor sites are saying "something high resolution will come out before Photokina in May". It'll be interesting to see if it uses the recycled 50 MP sensor from the 5Ds, or something that deals with the dynamic range issues of that sensor?

I'm purely guessing here, but I think the second body may have been meant to come out in the initial release. On the other hand, a senior Canon executive (in the same interview that he hinted at the high-res body) also said something like "remember the 50mm F1.0 EF - we put that out to show we could, it was very high end for the initial EOS bodies". Of course, there were many more lenses in the initial EF release - 12 in the first year, only one of which (the 300mm f2.8 ) was at all exotic. The 50mm f1.0 came along a year or two later, around the same time as the EOS-1 (according to Wikipedia, the 50 and the EOS-1 were both 1989, but they don't say which came first.

How would the many Nikon fans on this thread feel if the initial release had excluded the Z7? Nikon happened to have a sensor that was an excellent fit for a high-res body (adding PDAF to the D850 sensor may not have been hard), and they made the decision that it was cheaper to use the high-end Z7 body for the Z6 as well than to build a "prosumer" body. The Z6 could have very easily gotten its own, D610-grade body. If that were the case, either body could have fallen behind the other in development...

I wouldn't be surprised if Canon has two cameras waiting for us at Photokina? How about an "EOS-R1" and an "EOS-R1s"? What if they share a body that addresses many of the complaints about the EOS-R? The EOS-R1 would have the best AF system yet seen in mirrorless (and competitive with the EOS-1Dx mkII) and a maximum frame rate of 12 FPS or more on a sub-30 MP sensor. The EOS-R1s would lose a lot of the frame rate, but pick up a sensor in the 50 MP range. The challenge is that Sony and Nikon have set the going rate for a high-resolution body in the low $3000s, and Canon may well want to charge more than that for the fast body. They could follow Sony's example with the A7rIII and the A9, going against years of their own pricing policy with any EOS 1D and Ds variant, and make the fast body more expensive than the high-res variant, they could add enough features that they at least try to put the high-res body close to 1Ds territory, or they could just price them similarly ($4500? - the high-res body would need something that clearly set it above the Z7 and A7rIII).

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: D White on November 11, 2018, 12:47:28 am
Canon will obviously come out with higher end bodies; one with high MP and another with faster frame rates.

The question is more about what their sensor tech will be. They seem to be tone deaf on the failure of their dynamic range to compete with every one else on the planet and I lost faith that that will change any time soon. One of the problems is that they seem to be able to sell what ever warmed over sensor tech they push out, so I guess they think why bother investing heavily into better sensors. I would predict that this tone deaf stance will continue until the bottom falls out of their sales.

I believe some never experience the lack of dynamic range depending on the images they take and the image processing they apply, while others don't realize how much better it can be. This sub set will be happy to line up and buy what ever Canon puts in front of them and believe what ever Canon tells them they should be happy with. Others are so committed in lenses that they try to ignore the issue and hold out for better days ahead, (I was one of these until I final gave up).

I also question how well the dual pixel AF is really going to compete. There are very mixed views on the R as it is, and I just don't trust Canon will get it right, because, well, they are Canon.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: DP on November 11, 2018, 07:08:59 am
Canon will obviously come out with higher end bodies; one with high MP and another with faster frame rates.

or not or may be 5 years later... or may be with the same M.Fn bar as on their current EOS - R ( or may be with 2 more bars  ;D )

The question is more about what their sensor tech will be. They seem to be tone deaf on the failure of their dynamic range to compete with every one else on the planet

Give them credit - they mostly get rid of the banding in deep shadows that was even further reducing DR measured by sites like DxO or Bill Claff's one !
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: kers on November 11, 2018, 10:25:53 am
Canon may yet be serious - I suspect we haven't seen the body those lenses were made for...
This sounds a bit like    ... Leica..?
ah ...the future...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: D White on November 11, 2018, 10:41:29 am
or not or may be 5 years later... or may be with the same M.Fn bar as on their current EOS - R ( or may be with 2 more bars  ;D )

Give them credit - they mostly get rid of the banding in deep shadows that was even further reducing DR measured by sites like DxO or Bill Claff's one !

Other than maybe the 1Dx2, there is still plenty of banding. Enough to keep noise reduction software busy for years.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on November 11, 2018, 12:34:20 pm
Even as a Nikon and Fuji shooter, I tend to give Canon significantly more credit than Leica. At least Canon makes cameras that are meant to be used - some absurd portion of Leica's revenue comes from commemorative models that will never leave the box. I believe it was Leica CEO Andreas Kaufmann (?) who said something like "we could omit the sensor from half the cameras we make, and the buyer would never know - we just don't know which ones" :) There are probably certain commemoratives where it's well over half that don't need a sensor, and some of them are actually unique in operation (they have some unusual feature other than a paint job). Their first rear screen-less digital rangefinder was only a commemorative, although they later released a standard model without a screen. I'm not sure the original Monochrom wasn't commemorative-only???
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 12, 2018, 08:31:57 am
I finally found the time to use my Leica 180mm f2.8 APO on the Z7.

What a joy, never got so many tack sharp images with it. The EVF is really amazing!

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on November 17, 2018, 07:56:22 pm
Another focus stack experiment; it's getting easier but you still have to go through multiple shots, at least in close ups, to figure it out how many shots you need. It might be that you can be more liberal with the focus steps at close distance.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: MichaelEzra on November 17, 2018, 07:58:18 pm
Z7... finally, Nikon, bracketing with 3 EV step!
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: 32BT on November 18, 2018, 02:35:49 am
Another focus stack experiment; it's getting easier but you still have to go through multiple shots, at least in close ups, to figure it out how many shots you need. It might be that you can be more liberal with the focus steps at close distance.

What's the problem with just taking a superfluous number of shots and handpicking what you actually need? i.e. let it take 10 shots and using only the first 5 for the actual composite? Or is this in-camera merging?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Guillermo Luijk on November 18, 2018, 03:41:20 am
I finally found the time to use my Leica 180mm f2.8 APO on the Z7.

What a joy, never got so many tack sharp images with it. The EVF is really amazing!

Cheers,
Bernard
Bernard, now that you've used the Z7 for a while, how are you feeling with the EVF experience?. Do you miss something when going back to your D850's OVF? or viceversa.

Regards
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: kers on November 18, 2018, 06:45:43 am
Z7... finally, Nikon, bracketing with 3 EV step!
also on the d850 and d810
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on November 18, 2018, 02:35:40 pm
What's the problem with just taking a superfluous number of shots and handpicking what you actually need? i.e. let it take 10 shots and using only the first 5 for the actual composite? Or is this in-camera merging?

Time-space continuum.

Time:
A. when you take the shots, you want the shortest time for various reasons (change in light, small movements, you want to take photos of more things, etc)
B. I don't want to go through too many shots and select the best, it can be quite time consuming.

Space:
take too many unnecessary shots and soon you run out of space, lose more time changing the card, etc

Can it be done as you say? Sure. It's less efficient though.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on November 22, 2018, 01:10:30 am
Why have we not yet seen Kevin's Z7 review, nor even any mention of it on Luminous (outside the forum)? He mentioned on the forum that he had one coming, and, meanwhile, there are at least four or five of us on here who are shooting it (and getting great results, although it is quirky for some applications). The Z7 deserves the front page for a bit... It's certainly the most interesting camera of 2018, in my opinion (the Canon lenses indicate that they have a great body coming, but the EOS-R isn't it). For some things it can't be beat, and a landscape-focused site should have a review of the best landscape camera around...

I'd put the X-H1 (IBIS, video) and A7III (great new sensor, battery) in second place for most interesting release of 2018, then the GFX-50R , then probably the EOS-R. The A7rIII and D850 are both 2017 releases (and galloped away with all the awards, between them).
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: davidgp on November 22, 2018, 05:30:49 am
Why have we not yet seen Kevin's Z7 review, nor even any mention of it on Luminous (outside the forum)? He mentioned on the forum that he had one coming, and, meanwhile, there are at least four or five of us on here who are shooting it (and getting great results, although it is quirky for some applications). The Z7 deserves the front page for a bit... It's certainly the most interesting camera of 2018, in my opinion (the Canon lenses indicate that they have a great body coming, but the EOS-R isn't it). For some things it can't be beat, and a landscape-focused site should have a review of the best landscape camera around...

I'd put the X-H1 (IBIS, video) and A7III (great new sensor, battery) in second place for most interesting release of 2018, then the GFX-50R , then probably the EOS-R. The A7rIII and D850 are both 2017 releases (and galloped away with all the awards, between them).

Kevin went through hip replacement surgery by the end of September. He is probably taking it slowly during these months...



http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on November 22, 2018, 07:54:24 am
Kevin went through hip replacement surgery by the end of September. He is probably taking it slowly during these months...

Somehow managed to find a Canon shooter to make a video about the EOS-R, though.

(Having said that, it's not a review that will have anybody running to their local Canon dealer)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: davidgp on November 22, 2018, 08:43:44 am
Somehow managed to find a Canon shooter to make a video about the EOS-R, though.

(Having said that, it's not a review that will have anybody running to their local Canon dealer)

I knew it... I should have said nothing...



http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, and crowd-sourced reviews?
Post by: BJL on November 22, 2018, 12:24:06 pm
How about some crowd-sourcing of reviews: a thread for the Z7 (and one for each interesting new camera) intended only for reports from actual users of said camera?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: faberryman on November 22, 2018, 05:30:40 pm
Swing a dead cat and you find one. This thread is already 73 pages long with plenty of first hand accounts from those who couldn't restrain themselves and rushed out to buy their very own Z7.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, and crowd-sourced reviews?
Post by: kers on November 22, 2018, 08:21:59 pm
How about some crowd-sourcing of reviews: a thread for the Z7 (and one for each interesting new camera) intended only for reports from actual users of said camera?
there is this one on the Z7

https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=127494.0
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, and crowd-sourced reviews?
Post by: BJL on November 22, 2018, 11:02:01 pm
there is this one on the Z7

https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=127494.0
Indeed. I’m looking forward to the Z6 and EOS-R user experience threads (and Kevin’s Z review)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on November 25, 2018, 10:09:36 pm
Swing a dead cat and you find one. This thread is already 73 pages long with plenty of first hand accounts from those who couldn't restrain themselves and rushed out to buy their very own Z7.

Have you read many reports from unhappy Z7 owners?

The camera is obviously not perfect but is still an excellent product overall.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Michael Erlewine on November 30, 2018, 07:18:07 pm
I have a question for NIkon Z7 owners. Using LiveView, I have not figured out how to leave it on permanently. It stays bright for many 20 seconds and then partially dims out. Anyone know how to make it stay on? Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on December 04, 2018, 08:20:51 pm
Quick AF update...

I am in India and had the chance to use my Z7 through my taxi’s window last night.

Very dark, moving platform, moving subjects typically appearing in my viewfinder in less than 0.5s, f1.8 on the 35mm f1.8 S.

Incredibly enough, I have never gotten as many keepers from my D850. And the gap in favour of the Z7 is significant.

The secret? AF-C in wide area mode which is the equivalent of group AF on the D850 I had used rather successfully on the D850.

Obviously you don’t have much control on where it does focus but man... what an incredible performance that was.

One caveat is that I was using the 28mm f1.4 on the D850 that is arguably slower to focus being f1.4, but still...

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on December 12, 2018, 06:03:26 pm
https://www.cameralabs.com/nikon-z-50mm-f1-8s-review/

The conclusion in short is Otus 55mm f1.4 like quality at less than 1/4th the price, half the weight and 2/3rd the size... with AF.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Michael Erlewine on December 12, 2018, 08:07:29 pm
https://www.cameralabs.com/nikon-z-50mm-f1-8s-review/

The conclusion in short is Otus 55mm f1.4 like quality at less than 1/4th the price, half the weight and 2/3rd the size... with AF.

Cheers,
Bernard

I am not clear how you come up with that from the review. I don't see how the 50mm is anywhere close to the Otus. Please explain if you have time. Thanks.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: chez on December 12, 2018, 09:27:33 pm
I am not clear how you come up with that from the review. I don't see how the 50mm is anywhere close to the Otus. Please explain if you have time. Thanks.

You must put on those Nikon made rose coloured glasses that Bernard wears. Everything through them with a Nikon label turns to gold.

In other words...take people’s opinions with a grain of salt.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BJL on December 12, 2018, 10:17:43 pm
To be fair, that is roughly the conclusion that the linked article states. But there is room for some skepticism with the methodology, like comparing MTF wide open (so f/1.8 vs f/1.4) instead of only at equal f-stop.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on December 13, 2018, 02:03:37 am
To be fair, that is roughly the conclusion that the linked article states. But there is room for some skepticism with the methodology, like comparing MTF wide open (so f/1.8 vs f/1.4) instead of only at equal f-stop.

Exactly, if you read the review, the conclusion for most of the comparison items is that the lenses are very close.

I am pretty sure that Chez didn't bother reading it but is just commenting based on his pre-conveived ideas about my lack of objectivity. Not to mention the fact that he has zero interest in Nikon equipment. There is little more than bad mouthing going on here... ;)

Besides, I own both and I am very impressed by the 50mm f1.8 S. I was one of the first here to own an Otus and to boast about its qualities, I have zero reason to prefer one over the other.

I personally find the Otus to be a bit better still, but the gap nowhere justifies the difference in price/weight/size. The 50mm f1.8 S is both an incredible deal and a remarkable performer in absolute terms.

What's so strange with the 50mm f1.8 S being a remarkable lens when Nikon told us it would be, when the MTF charts shows it should be, when the mount it is relying on is the most promising there is, when all recent Nikon lenses have been top performers, when all the other tests published so far have been very positive,... how could this 50mm f1.8 S not be very good?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: JaapD on December 13, 2018, 06:54:09 am
Hi Bernard,

I agree that this 50mm f/1.8S is very good indeed, no question about that. On the other hand I don’t recognize “all recent Nikon lenses have been top performers”. For me a top performer is one that also performs near the edges. I see that only in Nikon’s tele range, with the rest I’m not that impressed. For instance it doesn’t come close to Sony’s G-Master lenses.

And no, I don’t have a Sony camera and have no business with Sony what so ever.

Regards,
Jaap.

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: kers on December 13, 2018, 07:27:37 am
Hi Bernard,
I agree that this 50mm f/1.8S is very good indeed, no question about that. On the other hand I don’t recognize “all recent Nikon lenses have been top performers”. For me a top performer is one that also performs near the edges. I see that only in Nikon’s tele range, with the rest I’m not that impressed. For instance it doesn’t come close to Sony’s G-Master lenses.
And no, I don’t have a Sony camera and have no business with Sony what so ever.
Regards,
Jaap.

I think the 35mm 1.8 that came with the Z is a good lens , but not that good in the corners- on the other hand the 24-70  f4 is a very good zoom with good corners... i tested both.
It was about time Nikon came with a decent 50mm lens. Have not tested it yet. Silly thing; Now i have to buy a Z camera to be able to use a good 50mm Nikkor.
I agree Nikon needs to work on more good primes, I like the 24mm 1.8G very much. It is one of my favourite lenses.
Not only does it have a flat field at infinity it has also a very nice bokeh.
What is not good is the mechanical part- not a pro lens in that sense. I would buy it if it was made as a pro lens at double the price.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on December 13, 2018, 07:46:32 am
I agree that this 50mm f/1.8S is very good indeed, no question about that. On the other hand I don’t recognize “all recent Nikon lenses have been top performers”. For me a top performer is one that also performs near the edges. I see that only in Nikon’s tele range, with the rest I’m not that impressed. For instance it doesn’t come close to Sony’s G-Master lenses.

The best in class - or very close to - lenses (center, corner,...) they have released recently:
- 19 mm f4 T/S
- 24mm f1.8
- 28mm f1.4
- 24-70 f4 S
- 24-70 f2.8 VR (only pro spec VR pro zoom, makes a world of difference)
- 50mm f1.8 S
- 105mm f1.4 - now bettered by the Sigma, but that lens is too large for practical usage
- 70-200mm f2.8 E FL
- 180-400 f4 E

I have a hard time coming up with any of their recent release that isn't outstanding.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: kers on December 13, 2018, 10:42:43 am
The best in class - or very close to - lenses (center, corner,...) they have released recently:
- 19 mm f4 T/S
- 24mm f1.8
- 28mm f1.4
- 24-70 f4 S
- 24-70 f2.8 VR (only pro spec VR pro zoom, makes a world of difference)
- 50mm f1.8 S
- 105mm f1.4 - now bettered by the Sigma, but that lens is too large for practical usage
- 70-200mm f2.8 E FL

I have a hard time coming up with any of their recent release that isn't outstanding.

Cheers,
Bernard
agreed with the list...
I see 3 lenses in that list under a 800€ - two of those are for the Z...and the 24mm 1.8g
Those are the bargains. - and small + lightweight.

Update: Jim Kasson clearly shows the quality of the 50mm 1.8 lens - better than the Sigma 50 Art  !
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on December 14, 2018, 09:05:18 am
Update: Jim Kasson clearly shows the quality of the 50mm 1.8 lens - better than the Sigma 50 Art  !

He must be a Nikon fanboy.  ;D

How could the Nikon be better than the Sigma that has been reviewed as being nearly as good as the Otus when Chez has told us that the Nikon can’t be any close to the Zeiss???

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Michael Erlewine on December 14, 2018, 09:12:08 am
He must be a Nikon fanboy.  ;D

How could the Nikon be better than the Sigma that has been reviewed as being nearly as good as the Otus when Chez has told us that the Nikon can’t be any close to the Zeiss???

Cheers,
Bernard

B. Roslett, to me personally responsible for my buying most of my many lenses, LOL, says that this 50mm S lens is perhaps the best 50mm Nikkor ever made. That says something to me.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on December 14, 2018, 09:14:25 am
B. Roslett, to me personally responsible for my buying most of my many lenses, LOL, says that this 50mm S lens is perhaps the best 50mm Nikkor ever made. That says something to me.

Another Nikon fanboy!  ;D

Let’s face it, anyone who is not acknowledging the total superiority of Sony can only be a Nikon fanboy.

How could that not be the case since Sony is superior?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Michael Erlewine on December 14, 2018, 09:20:08 am
Another Nikon fanboy!  ;D

Let’s face it, anyone who is not acknowledging the total superiority of Sony can only be a Nikon fanboy.

Cheers,
Bernard

Not sure how you are using the term "Fanboy" here. Rørslett knows Nikon glass better than anyone I have ever come across, and does not succumb IMO to Nikon just because it is Nikon. He knows lenses very well, lenses of all kinds, not just Nikon. And there are IMO a LOT of subpar Nikon Lenses out there, especially in terms of their being well-corrected as in "APO" which is not a precise term. For him to speak that highly (as you have) of the new Z7 50mm S is enough for me to take notice. However, he does not particularly care for the Otus series, which I very much do.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: kers on December 14, 2018, 09:23:45 am
B. Roslett, to me personally responsible for my buying most of my many lenses, LOL, says that this 50mm S lens is perhaps the best 50mm Nikkor ever made. That says something to me.

Nikon internal competition is not very interesting alas..
Sigma, Canon, Sony and Zeiss will be the competition to refer to.
It says enough that Sigma dared to make a 50mm 1.4 ART in 2014 that was more than twice as expensive as the Nikkor and in some aspects was sharper than the Otus 58mm.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on December 14, 2018, 02:17:47 pm
Not sure how you are using the term "Fanboy" here. Rørslett knows Nikon glass better than anyone I have ever come across, and does not succumb IMO to Nikon just because it is Nikon. He knows lenses very well, lenses of all kinds, not just Nikon. And there are IMO a LOT of subpar Nikon Lenses out there, especially in terms of their being well-corrected as in "APO" which is not a precise term. For him to speak that highly (as you have) of the new Z7 50mm S is enough for me to take notice. However, he does not particularly care for the Otus series, which I very much do.

Certainly, I was joking of course.

He is a world famous authority about lenses obviously.

There is an anti Nikon Z web warfare on-going, led by some Sony owners who can apparently not accept the possibility that the Z mount may enable the design of better lens and they tend to call fanboy anybody reporting such positive information about the Z lenses. I was just making a bit fun of them. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Michael Erlewine on December 14, 2018, 02:44:07 pm
Certainly, I was joking of course.

He is a world famous authority about lenses obviously.

There is an anti Nikon Z web warfare on-going, led by some Sony owners who can apparently not accept the possibility that the Z mount may enable the design of better lens and they tend to call fanboy anybody reporting such positive information about the Z lenses. I was just making a bit fun of them. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

I get it now. I have been out of the loop for a while and have not paid attention to that riff. Nothing wrong with Sony, I had the A7R, A7S, A7R2 (twice), and A7R3... and no longer have any of them. Also had the Z1D. GFX, Pentax K1/K3 and so on. Gone. They all have qualities. However, the Nikon Z7 and D850 are the cameras I like most for my work, which is close-up/Macro nature photography.  And you can tell from the mounts (simple measurement) that the Z7 has great potential.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: faberryman on December 14, 2018, 03:15:40 pm
I get it now. I have been out of the loop for a while and have not paid attention to that riff. Nothing wrong with Sony, I had the A7R, A7S, A7R2 (twice), and A7R3... and no longer have any of them. Also had the Z1D. GFX, Pentax K1/K3 and so on. Gone. They all have qualities. However, the Nikon Z7 and D850 are the cameras I like most for my work, which is close-up/Macro nature photography.  And you can tell from the mounts (simple measurement) that the Z7 has great potential.
Boy, you really run through the camera equipment.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on December 14, 2018, 03:42:49 pm
Jim Kasson, who tests lenses quite carefully, has just posted test images in which the 50mm Z lens pretty clearly beats the Sigma Art 50mm, even with the Z wide open and the Sigma stopped down to f1.8. The Art is certainly one of the new breed of "Super 50s", which includes the Sony Zeiss 50 f1.4 and 55 f1.8, as well as the Canon RF 50 f 1.2, and perhaps others. These are all a different (and much sharper) animal from the classic double Gauss 50mm lenses (most if not all Canon and Nikon DSLR 50s, for example). The "Super 50s" tend to have 10 or more elements, instead of 6-8 for a conventional 50mm lens, and to use aspheric elements, low-dispersion elements or both, which aren't involved in classic 50mm designs.

Jim Kasson's test shows that the Nikkor is not only a "Super 50", but even in the upper echelon of that already refined class - the Sigma is an excellent and well-respected lens that doesn't give up much, if anything, to any of the others. Since there's no way to get the most obvious "Super 50's" other than the Sigma onto the Z7 body (Sony to Z and Canon RF to Z adapters don't exist), a direct comparison with the Sony or Canon lenses is impossible... There is very little evidence that any of them are in a whole different class from the Sigma, though - one or more might be as good as the Z Nikkor (the Sony Zeiss 55mm f1.4 and the Canon RF 50mm f1.2 are likely candidates), but almost certainly none will outclass it (the Canon RF is a full stop faster, and most of the others are a half stop faster).

That leaves one ~50 mm lens that might truly be better than the little Nikkor - the mighty Zeiss Otus 55mm f1.4. At 2.5x the weight (before adding the FTZ adapter) and nearly 7x the price, the Otus would have no reason to exist if it can't beat all comers! We have an interesting situation where each FF mirrorless system has a great 50mm lens that is probably preferable to any 50mm DSLR lens except the Otus. There doesn't appear to be much to choose between the mirrorless "Super 50s" across systems - pick the Nikkor Z, the Sony Zeiss or the Canon RF by what fits your camera, but 50mm belongs to mirrorless...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Michael Erlewine on December 14, 2018, 03:54:38 pm
Boy, you really run through the camera equipment.

I test them out for my particular kind of work. But I only keep what is the best for what I do. My style is below:

https://michaelerlewine.smugmug.com/
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on December 14, 2018, 04:57:40 pm
I get it now. I have been out of the loop for a while and have not paid attention to that riff. Nothing wrong with Sony, I had the A7R, A7S, A7R2 (twice), and A7R3... and no longer have any of them. Also had the Z1D. GFX, Pentax K1/K3 and so on. Gone. They all have qualities. However, the Nikon Z7 and D850 are the cameras I like most for my work, which is close-up/Macro nature photography.  And you can tell from the mounts (simple measurement) that the Z7 has great potential.

I totally agree that the Sony is excellent and the best in quite a few area, starting with AF. A great solution from a great company.

The Nikon fanboys appear to be able to see the value of Sony equipment, only the opposite isn’t true.  ;D

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Michael Erlewine on December 14, 2018, 05:07:40 pm
I totally agree that the Sony is excellent and the best in quite a few area, starting with AF. A great solution from a great company.

Cheers,
Bernard


I have been more impressed with Sony video cameras for many years. I have the Sony FS5 camcorder that is a very impressive camera with a small footprint. I am not that interested in their mirrorless, probably because I use manual focus and never autofocus.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on December 14, 2018, 05:44:58 pm
I have been more impressed with Sony video cameras for many years. I have the Sony FS5 camcorder that is a very impressive camera with a small footprint. I am not that interested in their mirrorless, probably because I use manual focus and never autofocus.

Yes, indeed. It is all the more ironic that the Z6 is a significantly better video camera than the a7III or a7rIII.

Now I believe that the a7SIII should hopefully correct that.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Michael Erlewine on December 14, 2018, 05:49:15 pm
Yes, indeed. It is all the more ironic that the Z6 is a significantly better video camera than the a7III or a7rIII.

Now I believe that the a7SIII should hopefully correct that.

Cheers,
Bernard

I don't use the mirrorless cameras for video. The Sony SF5 is another order of magnitude video camera (IMO), used with the Atomos Shogun Inferno..
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on December 14, 2018, 07:01:08 pm
Video on mirrorless is about to get really interesting - between the new Panasonics, the A7sIII and the potential that Olympus might do something on their new model... If they're serious about 7.5 stops of stabilization, and that works in video, they have essentially eliminated the gimbal market! Even a 5 stop stabilized camera like a Z7 is impressively easier to hold than an older-style 2.5-3 stop stabilizer.

We may end up with a battle for bit rate between Panasonic and Sony, with Olympus a little behind, but well ahead in stabilization. Fuji and Nikon will end up with cameras that are a little behind the 2019 generation for video, but still impressive (e.g. as good or better than anything of the A7SII/GH5 generation), while very likely being better still cameras than the kings of motion. Canon will either have to admit that they're protecting the Cinema EOS line by keeping video features out of their still cameras OR they'll have to release something better... Either way, they're stuck - they either lose some mirrorless sales to a huge lag in video features, OR some Cinema EOS sales by competing with themselves!
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: faberryman on December 14, 2018, 07:09:20 pm
Video on mirrorless is about to get really interesting - between the new Panasonics, the A7sIII and the potential that Olympus might do something on their new model... If they're serious about 7.5 stops of stabilization, and that works in video, they have essentially eliminated the gimbal market! Even a 5 stop stabilized camera like a Z7 is impressively easier to hold than an older-style 2.5-3 stop stabilizer.

We may end up with a battle for bit rate between Panasonic and Sony, with Olympus a little behind, but well ahead in stabilization. Fuji and Nikon will end up with cameras that are a little behind the 2019 generation for video, but still impressive (e.g. as good or better than anything of the A7SII/GH5 generation), while very likely being better still cameras than the kings of motion. Canon will either have to admit that they're protecting the Cinema EOS line by keeping video features out of their still cameras OR they'll have to release something better... Either way, they're stuck - they either lose some mirrorless sales to a huge lag in video features, OR some Cinema EOS sales by competing with themselves!
I am a still photographer. I could not care less about video features. Fortunately, you can turn them off. Nevertheless, I know that professionals need video given the broadening demands of their clients.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Michael Erlewine on December 14, 2018, 07:44:12 pm
Yep, the Nikon Z7 is a major stop forward with video. I can get 10-bit 4k exported to my Atomos Shogun Inferno full-frame. No other mirrorless I know of can do that or DSLR either.

The Z7 has minor flaws, but it is a major hit with me. If they would add pixel-shift in firmware, it would be incredible. As a still camera, I still use the D850 for a lot of work, but the Z7 pretty much owns my Cambo Actus Mini and Actus XL-35 right now. Plus, I am gearing up for and have ordered shorter adapters (Leica, M42, etc.) to field the many exotic lenses that I have and use.

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: SrMi on December 15, 2018, 01:53:14 am
Video on mirrorless is about to get really interesting - between the new Panasonics, the A7sIII and the potential that Olympus might do something on their new model... If they're serious about 7.5 stops of stabilization, and that works in video, they have essentially eliminated the gimbal market! Even a 5 stop stabilized camera like a Z7 is impressively easier to hold than an older-style 2.5-3 stop stabilizer.
<snip>

Olympus Says Earth’s Rotation Limits Image Stabilization to 6.5 Stops Max.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: kpz on December 15, 2018, 02:16:04 am
Olympus Says Earth’s Rotation Limits Image Stabilization to 6.5 Stops Max.

I would really love to see the math involved here. Do you have a link?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: johnvanatta on December 15, 2018, 04:30:29 am
I liked Camera Labs' review of the 50 S. The LOCA comparison with the Otus 55mm is particularly impressive. A welcome trend from Nikon's latest lenses.
https://www.cameralabs.com/nikon-z-50mm-f1-8s-review
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Michael Erlewine on December 15, 2018, 09:28:33 am
I liked Camera Labs' review of the 50 S. The LOCA comparison with the Otus 55mm is particularly impressive. A welcome trend from Nikon's latest lenses.
https://www.cameralabs.com/nikon-z-50mm-f1-8s-review

The way I am starting to see this is that if the 50mm S Nikon Z7 lens is as good as it is for the relatively low price it costs and the forthcoming new NOCT will be the stellar lens it looks to be, then IMO the writing is on the wall. The future belongs to a new series of lenses for the Z mount. I have scores of very fine and expensive lenses and I probably should sell some of them now since if those new Nikon Z native lenses are as good as my guess they will be, even the Otus series of which I have all of them will be in a fire sale.

For example: Should I sell my current NOCT Nikkor, which is a great copy NOW to help pay for the forthcoming one?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on December 15, 2018, 09:37:40 am
I wondered about precisely the piece of Olympus math somebody pointed out... The 6.5 stops due to the rotation of the Earth was in an interview somewhere when the E-M1 mk II came out, while the 7.5 stop number is in a more recent link. Unless Olympus has figured out how to slow down the Earth's rotation (without causing havoc with tide changes), something's wrong. I wonder if the rotation of the Earth has more of an effect at longer distances, and the 7.5 stops has a caveat about subject distance?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BJL on December 15, 2018, 11:24:30 am
Olympus Says Earth’s Rotation Limits Image Stabilization to 6.5 Stops Max.
If a camera has GPS and compass (like phones do), it could correct for that rotation ...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: SrMi on December 15, 2018, 11:52:52 am
I wondered about precisely the piece of Olympus math somebody pointed out... The 6.5 stops due to the rotation of the Earth was in an interview somewhere when the E-M1 mk II came out, while the 7.5 stop number is in a more recent link. Unless Olympus has figured out how to slow down the Earth's rotation (without causing havoc with tide changes), something's wrong. I wonder if the rotation of the Earth has more of an effect at longer distances, and the 7.5 stops has a caveat about subject distance?

Would love to see the link to the article about 7.5 stops. Thanks.
P.S.: Did a search on Google, could not find it.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: faberryman on December 15, 2018, 11:56:59 am
Would love to see the link to the article about 7.5 stops. Thanks.
P.S.: Did a search on Google, could not find it.
Does it really matter if it is 6.5 or 7.5 stops?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Telecaster on December 15, 2018, 04:06:20 pm
Re. 50mm lenses (and most other focal lengths), we're at the point now where resolution has little if anything to do with which one I choose for a given purpose. They're all more than good enough in this respect, and in this judgment I include lenses going back to the 1950s. Even pre-WWII, uncoated lenses are fine so long as you avoid flare-y situations. (The flare these lenses tend to produce isn't the cool, cinematic stuff but the "huge blobs of low-contrast washout" kind.) At some point it's best IMO to let the geekery go and just enjoy the imaging character of your favorites.

-Dave-
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: kers on December 15, 2018, 08:15:24 pm
Re. 50mm lenses (and most other focal lengths), we're at the point now where resolution has little if anything to do with which one I choose for a given purpose. They're all more than good enough in this respect, and in this judgment I include lenses going back to the 1950s. Even pre-WWII, uncoated lenses are fine so long as you avoid flare-y situations. (The flare these lenses tend to produce isn't the cool, cinematic stuff but the "huge blobs of low-contrast washout" kind.) At some point it's best IMO to let the geekery go and just enjoy the imaging character of your favorites.

-Dave-
So, I understand you did not buy new 50mm stuff since the 1950's...?
(I thought you did buy a 40mm zeiss?)
So just - not shoot against the sun?
There are so much different kind of photographs and photographers ...
Also we all want to make some kind of progress...
The architectural kind of photographer ( me for one-) likes that the corners are good at infinity.
Not many 50mm do that wide open...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: johnvanatta on December 15, 2018, 10:10:26 pm
Unfortunately (for me) my favorite properties in a lens are:

- Small and light
- Sharp across the field, not just in the center
- Minimal color aberrations
- Weather sealing

So, I'm kind of stuck in a narrow range of new, rather expensive lenses  :-X
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on December 15, 2018, 10:14:39 pm
Here's the citation on 7.5 stops... (https://www.43rumors.com/ft4-are-these-the-first-leaked-image-of-the-new-e-m1x/) Not quite sure I believe it - these rumor sites publish from relatively random sources, and are cagey about it (so we don't know if it's a real insider or not). The comment that 6.5 stops is approaching a limit imposed by the rotation of the Earth is from an attributed Olympus interview on Imaging Resource about a year and a half ago, and probably reliable.

If the 7.5 stop figure has any truth at all, I suspect that it's under certain circumstances... I could see them claiming it if the 12-100 (the lens they always use - it has very good built-in IS that interacts with the body IS) is sharp at 100 mm and 3/4 second. I've shot a friend's copy of it at 60mm and 1/2 second on an existing E-M1 mkII with acceptable results, so I would sort of believe it's possible.

They'll claim 1/250 as the shutter speed needed without stabilization (based on pixel density and field of view), so 1/125 is already one stop. 1/60 is 2, 1/30 is 3, 1/15 is 4 (most conventional IS systems would drop out around here with a 200 mm FOV equivalent), 1/8 is 5, 1/4 is 6, 1/2 is 7 stops.  I don't think they are really talking about a 6 second shutter speed at 12mm on their favorite 12-100 lens... The other possibility is that they get to 1/4 second on the 300mm lens (600 mm field of view) and claim victory... Whether or not that's really 7.5 stops (it is if you claim 1/750 second as the no-stabilizer speed), it's impressive.

However they do it, I'm sure the E-M1X will have really impressive stabilization. Probably so much that it's overkill for most stills other than previously impossible pursuits like handheld astrophotography - but it'll make for super-stable video without a gimbal...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on December 15, 2018, 10:19:03 pm
The narrow range of relatively new, expensive lenses Johnvanatta mentions has a bunch of new members from both Nikon and Canon's mirrorless systems... A lot of Fuji glass and the lighter Sony G-Masters for company (plus the Olympus Pro lenses if you can live with the sensor limits)...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: johnvanatta on December 15, 2018, 11:54:19 pm
Yeah, there's no way stops are a great measure of whatever limitation it is they're referring to. The lower frequency movement from the breathing cycle isn't the same as hand jitters. Stabilization also has diminishing returns, as more and more things start to move quickly relative to the shutter. Fast people at 1/80th, slow people at 1/40th, branches and grass wiggling at 1/10th, etc. Perhaps the e-mix will have a ISO 64 or 50 mode like the Z7 to make more use of it--it'd be a great combination of features.

I bought a Z7 partly because of the promise of the S line of lenses. In 3 years, Nikon may well have more that check all four of my boxes than anyone. They're on a roll so far.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: SrMi on December 16, 2018, 12:24:26 am
Here's the citation on 7.5 stops... (https://www.43rumors.com/ft4-are-these-the-first-leaked-image-of-the-new-e-m1x/) Not quite sure I believe it - these rumor sites publish from relatively random sources, and are cagey about it (so we don't know if it's a real insider or not). The comment that 6.5 stops is approaching a limit imposed by the rotation of the Earth is from an attributed Olympus interview on Imaging Resource about a year and a half ago, and probably reliable.

If the 7.5 stop figure has any truth at all, I suspect that it's under certain circumstances... I could see them claiming it if the 12-100 (the lens they always use - it has very good built-in IS that interacts with the body IS) is sharp at 100 mm and 3/4 second. I've shot a friend's copy of it at 60mm and 1/2 second on an existing E-M1 mkII with acceptable results, so I would sort of believe it's possible.

They'll claim 1/250 as the shutter speed needed without stabilization (based on pixel density and field of view), so 1/125 is already one stop. 1/60 is 2, 1/30 is 3, 1/15 is 4 (most conventional IS systems would drop out around here with a 200 mm FOV equivalent), 1/8 is 5, 1/4 is 6, 1/2 is 7 stops.  I don't think they are really talking about a 6 second shutter speed at 12mm on their favorite 12-100 lens... The other possibility is that they get to 1/4 second on the 300mm lens (600 mm field of view) and claim victory... Whether or not that's really 7.5 stops (it is if you claim 1/750 second as the no-stabilizer speed), it's impressive.

However they do it, I'm sure the E-M1X will have really impressive stabilization. Probably so much that it's overkill for most stills other than previously impossible pursuits like handheld astrophotography - but it'll make for super-stable video without a gimbal...

Thank you for the link, Dan! I am sure that E-M1X will be a technological marvel. It is mentioned that it should be able to do high-res shots at 1/60s. Olympus may need very impressive stabilization to accomplish that.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on December 16, 2018, 01:17:20 am
The "more and more things start to move below 1/60" point is a great one - although there is an interesting corollary if you can stabilize 1/8 (or so) or slower. Below about 1/8, more and more things you want to move start moving relative to the shutter. Think shiny water, interesting motion blurs and interestingly panned action shots. Stabilization rarely gets you that low - that generally takes camera support - but I've done a few handheld water blurs on the Z7 (which has the best non-Olympus stabilizer I've used - note that my limited Sony experience is all with pre-IBIS bodies), and the Olympi can stabilize even more than that...

As interesting as I think Olympus' stabilizer claims are, I'm dubious of the EM1x in general - if the price and size are where they say they are, literally every non-Leica competitor is full-frame. I just think it's unlikely that a $3000 camera that gives up two stops to the competition right off the bat will sell well.  I'd rather see Olympus focus on a $1300-$1500 E-M1 mkIII that will continue the mk II's legacy as by far the smallest and cheapest real sports/action camera around.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Telecaster on December 16, 2018, 03:24:25 pm
So, I understand you did not buy new 50mm stuff since the 1950's...?

Deliberate misreading. Pfffft.

-Dave-
Title: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, 2-stops only when a far bigger aperture is usable
Post by: BJL on December 17, 2018, 11:16:30 am
I'm dubious of the EM1x in general ... a $3000 camera that gives up two stops to the competition right off the bat ...
It is a fallacy—or at least rather misleading—to say that a 4/3" sensor gives up two stops to a 35mm one. That assumes using equal ISO speeds, requiring equal aperture ratio, in turn requiring the larger format camera to use a lens of twice the focal length with the same f-stop, typically meaning a far bigger, heavier, more expensive lens. (300/4 vs 600/4?) The bottom line from physics is that lens size (effective aperture diameter) is the most fundamental photographic speed limit.

The 2-stop argument makes sense in cases where the smaller format is limited to the same aperture ratio (e.g. f/2.8 zooms lenses) so for on thing when two stops less DOF for the larger format is not a problem, but it is irrelevant when lens size/cost or need for adequate DOF limits the larger format to a proportionately larger aperture ratio. The speed benefit is intermediate if, for example, the larger format is limited to f/4 vs f/2.8 for the smaller.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, 2-stops only when a far bigger aperture is usable
Post by: SrMi on December 17, 2018, 12:39:20 pm
It is a fallacy—or at least rather misleading—to say that a 4/3" sensor gives up two stops to a 35mm one. That assumes using equal ISO speeds, requiring equal aperture ratio, in turn requiring the larger format camera to use a lens of twice the focal length with the same f-stop, typically meaning a far bigger, heavier, more expensive lens. (300/4 vs 600/4?) The bottom line from physics is that lens size (effective aperture diameter) is the most fundamental photographic speed limit.

The 2-stop argument makes sense in cases where the smaller format is limited to the same aperture ratio (e.g. f/2.8 zooms lenses) so for on thing when two stops less DOF for the larger format is not a problem, but it is irrelevant when lens size/cost or need for adequate DOF limits the larger format to a proportionately larger aperture ratio. The speed benefit is intermediate if, for example, the larger format is limited to f/4 vs f/2.8 for the smaller.

Olympus M1mII has considerably improved dynamic range when compared to mark 1. Looking at PhotonsToPhotos website, M1mII seems to have a very similar dynamic range as D850 if you shoot above ISO 200:

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D850,Olympus%20OM-D%20E-M1,Olympus%20OM-D%20E-M1%20Mark%20II
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, 2-stops only when a far bigger aperture is usable
Post by: BJL on December 17, 2018, 06:20:48 pm
Olympus M1mII has considerably improved dynamic range when compared to mark 1. Looking at PhotonsToPhotos website, M1mII seems to have a very similar dynamic range as D850 if you shoot above ISO 200:

http://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Nikon%20D850,Olympus%20OM-D%20E-M1,Olympus%20OM-D%20E-M1%20Mark%20II
Smaller photosites do tend to have less read noise for given exposure (photon count) received, so closing the gap in the deep shadows relative to a simplistic reckoning based only on photon shot noise, and that graph looks impressive. However, I admit that I do not understand the practical significance of measures of DR at high ISO speeds. It seems that a lot of that can just be the numerous stops of highlight headroom that is almost always irrelevant in practice because no photosites will get that much light. That because—almost by definition—a high ISO exposure is greatly underexposing the sensor relative to full well capacity. I would much rather measure high ISO performance by noise levels, and where the bottom of the "photographically useful levels" is.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on December 26, 2018, 08:59:14 am
https://cdn-4.nikon-cdn.com/e/Q5NM96RZZo-RRZZFeeMiveET0gVQ--AxJI7g-xcLVNVcp7mZwZQo0f6fAd8yUoQG/Misc/Z7-Autofocus-Guide.pdf

An interesting mapping of the Z7 AF modes vs D850.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on December 27, 2018, 12:11:34 am
Good timing, just today I found myself cursing the Z7 autofocus. AF-S, both small and larger area point, set on my kids. The damn thing, while in the larger area, focused on the background and half on the background with the small focus area, to the dismay of my kids as I had to ask them to come back several times. I fail to see why Nikon doesn’t favor the closest objects. It even recognized that there are 2 faces during image review. This was first generation mirroless performance. As a side note I think it would have gotten it right if I chose auto-area.
The other thing is that the focus performance decreases fast when the light gets low and you don’t have much contrast to work with.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on December 27, 2018, 03:26:12 am
Good timing, just today I found myself cursing the Z7 autofocus. AF-S, both small and larger area point, set on my kids. The damn thing, while in the larger area, focused on the background and half on the background with the small focus area, to the dismay of my kids as I had to ask them to come back several times. I fail to see why Nikon doesn’t favor the closest objects. It even recognized that there are 2 faces during image review. This was first generation mirroless performance. As a side note I think it would have gotten it right if I chose auto-area.
The other thing is that the focus performance decreases fast when the light gets low and you don’t have much contrast to work with.

When the light gets low I advise using area focus, this works very well in fact.

I would agree, auto with face detect on works very well. I did some tests again yesterday in a crowd with the 300mm f4 PF and was impressed by the speed and accuracy.

The potential for great AF is clearly there, but I totally agree that there are some strange behaviors and the removal of - at last an option to - pick the closest subject is idiotic.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, 2-stops only when a far bigger aperture is usable
Post by: DP on December 27, 2018, 01:15:59 pm
However, I admit that I do not understand the practical significance of measures of DR at high ISO speeds.
if you have important for you details both in deep shadows and in bright lights you might want to know if you can increase the gain safely, which in general tend to help with S/N in deep shadows... that is quite practical... certainly you can bracket, try to bring extra light for shadows and employ a number of other tricks - but to know DR (engineering or some other metric of your S/N ratio choice) helps... if you are talking about really high nominal ISO values like ISO512K or ISO1024K then you have a point though...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, 2-stops only when a far bigger aperture is usable
Post by: Ray on December 28, 2018, 08:46:48 am
Smaller photosites do tend to have less read noise for given exposure (photon count) received, so closing the gap in the deep shadows relative to a simplistic reckoning based only on photon shot noise, and that graph looks impressive. However, I admit that I do not understand the practical significance of measures of DR at high ISO speeds. It seems that a lot of that can just be the numerous stops of highlight headroom that is almost always irrelevant in practice because no photosites will get that much light. That because—almost by definition—a high ISO exposure is greatly underexposing the sensor relative to full well capacity. I would much rather measure high ISO performance by noise levels, and where the bottom of the "photographically useful levels" is.


I'm very surprised, BJL, that you don't understand the practical significance of measures of DR at high ISO speeds.

Nikon cameras tend to be ISO-invariant, which means if you shoot everything at base ISO, in RAW mode, using the appropriate shutter speed and F/stop for the scene, then the photos that are underexposed due to poor lighting, can be processed in Photoshop to look just as good as the same shot would be at a higher ISO which does not blow any highlights.

The advantage of underexposing at base ISO is that there is no risk of blowing highlights.
However, most Nikon models are not exactly ISO-invariant. There is often a slight DR advantage in raising ISO to 400, say, instead of underexposing at ISO 100. In order to understand the degree of this advantage, we  need measurements of DR at high ISO speeds.

Choosing ISO 400 or 800 instead of underexposing at base ISO, using the same shutter speed and f/stop, might result in a 0.2 EV increase in DR, which is insignificant. However, if the measurements show a 0.5 EV increase in DR, then choosing the higher ISO is significant.

With Canon cameras, there's no issue. Underexposing at base ISO instead of choosing a higher ISO, always results in significantly noisier images.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on December 30, 2018, 02:58:52 pm
Most Nikons seem to have a two-level analog gain - they are ISO-invariant up to some point around IS0 400-800, then they kick the gain up and are invariant again from whatever point they kick the gain up to the top ISO.

I don't know if some of the really fast cameras (D5?) might have more analog gain levels?

Where it's important to understand DR at multiple ISOs is to find those points where the gain actually varies... You'd generally want to shoot at the bottom ISO in a given gain group (assuming only the RAW matters, and you can see enough in the preview to find out if the image is in focus).

The disadvantage to shooting ISO 800 underexposed 6 stops instead of ISO 51,200 is that the preview and the JPEG will both look like the original negative to Ansel Adams' Moonrise, Hernandez, New Mexico (which looks like a black piece of film - the glorious image many of us are familiar with was achieved with something like 17 burns and 9 dodges in the darkroom).
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 01, 2019, 11:11:33 pm
A more detailed view of Nikon’s Z roadmap.

https://nikonrumors.com/2018/12/31/rumored-nikon-z-mirrorless-lenses-2019-release-schedule.aspx/

Seems just about perfect to me.

Judging from the quality of the first 3, the 14-30 f4 should be a landscape photographer’s dream lens.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on January 02, 2019, 07:33:04 am
The disadvantage to shooting ISO 800 underexposed 6 stops instead of ISO 51,200 is that the preview and the JPEG will both look like the original negative to Ansel Adams' Moonrise, Hernandez, New Mexico (which looks like a black piece of film - the glorious image many of us are familiar with was achieved with something like 17 burns and 9 dodges in the darkroom).

Did you mean blank piece of film? The negative you mention was severely underexposed and very thin. The opposite of black
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: D Fuller on January 03, 2019, 12:05:58 am

Judging from the quality of the first 3, the 14-30 f4 should be a landscape photographer’s dream lens.

Cheers,
Bernard

And a videographer’s. If it is a match in sharpness and focus performance to the Zeiss 16-35 f4 for emount, I’ll be a happy man. I own an A7r3 solely so I can fly that lens on a small gimbal.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on January 03, 2019, 08:56:05 am
A more detailed view of Nikon’s Z roadmap.

https://nikonrumors.com/2018/12/31/rumored-nikon-z-mirrorless-lenses-2019-release-schedule.aspx/

Seems just about perfect to me.

Despite the moaning about how the first Z lenses are not fast, I am actually a bit disappointed that there is no 70-200 f/4 - would have been a good backpacking lens. Of course a more compact 70-200 f/2.8 will also be welcome, but it is pretty chunky.

(However, my first purchase will be the 85 f/1.8, as my current "cream machine" won't autofocus on the Z7 )
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on January 03, 2019, 09:35:51 am
Do you expect a Z-mount 70-200 F4 to be significantly smaller than the current F-mount 70-200 F4 with the FTZ adapter?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on January 03, 2019, 09:58:02 am
Do you expect a Z-mount 70-200 F4 to be significantly smaller than the current F-mount 70-200 F4 with the FTZ adapter?
I would have thought so, on the basis that the 24-70 Z mount f/4 is quite a bit smaller than the F mount f/2.8, but maybe my assumption is incorrect. (I have the 70-200 f/4 and the Z mount 2.8 is said to be a similar size)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 03, 2019, 11:47:09 am
I am pretty sure that we will get a 70-200 f4 soon enough, but it’s not obvious which lens on the roadmap could be replace by one.

I believe that Nikon wanted to have first a Fuji like line up of top quality pretty compact f1.8 primes + f4 normal/wide zooms, and that makes total sense for upper mid range compact mirrorless bodies like the Z7 and Z6.

Pro zooms will then match a higher specced body and were mandatory too.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: HSakols on January 03, 2019, 12:42:49 pm
A quality 70-300 4-5.6 would be quite nice for landscape / nature.  Right now using the 70-200 f4 with FTZ adapter works.  How much smaller would a 70-200 f4 Z lens really be compared to what is available now? 
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on January 03, 2019, 06:42:06 pm
Maybe what I was remembering about the Moonrise neg (from a John Sexton lecture years ago) is that it would print black without a huge amount of darkroom help. The neg is essentially featureless at first glance, but it may well be 3-4 stops under instead of over...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on January 03, 2019, 06:45:10 pm
I agree that a quality variable-aperture tele (lighter than the most recent F-mount 70-300 plus the FTZ, and equal or better in image quality) is a real priority for the Z -system (and my one real disappointment in the roadmap is that it isn't yet showing up).

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BJL on January 03, 2019, 07:40:36 pm
A quality 70-300 4-5.6 would be quite nice for landscape / nature.  Right now using the 70-200 f4 with FTZ adapter works.  How much smaller would a 70-200 f4 Z lens really be compared to what is available now?
I agree that one good way to offer a lighter kit for “mobile photography” (hiking, etc) is to offer slower but wider ranging zooms like 24-100/4 or 24-100/2.8-4 and then 75-300 or 100-300 at maybe f/4-5.6 or a bit faster. Individually bulkier than 24-70/4 and 70-200/4, but often allowing one to carry fewer lenses to keep total kit bulk down (and need fewer lens changes, or fewer bodies to have all focal lengths rapidly available) We should no longer be slaves to the high end lens focal length range and f-stop specs that fit with the far lower usable speeds of film.

P. S. At 70mm and up, I do not expect that a mirrorless design would be smaller than an SLR lens design: the rear elements of an “optimal” design are probably far enough from the focal plane that it is fine for an SLR too.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Christopher on January 05, 2019, 08:13:15 am
I find the roadmap super boring. Probably correct and important for many, but to get me interested it would need to be much more creative or let’s say smaller. Excellent f4 zooms, something longer also small and light. I would never consider getting a small camera for such big lenses.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: kers on January 05, 2019, 10:50:57 am
I also find the roadmap not that interesting... But i do not know the outcome.
For instance a 70-200 f2.8;  will it be smaller and lighter than the ones we have, can Nikon put fase-fresnel optics in more lenses than tele?

I would like to see f2.8 fixed focal lenses with qualities: small, light and stellar.
They can be made for a reaonable price considering f2.8 means 1/4 of the surface of f1.4.
Af could be very fast for the same reason.
a 14mm , a 18mm, a 24mm, a 35mm, a 50mm , a 85mm come to mind.
+ a new macro 85-105mm f4.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 05, 2019, 05:19:04 pm
I find the roadmap super boring. Probably correct and important for many, but to get me interested it would need to be much more creative or let’s say smaller. Excellent f4 zooms, something longer also small and light. I would never consider getting a small camera for such big lenses.

The 24-70 f4 is both compact and excellent.

In fact when I compare in A1 prints the image quality I am getting from the Z7 + 24-7mm f4 handheld to that I am getting from the H6D-100c with a top H lens such as the 50mm II on tripod... I am wondering why I bother...

The H lens alone costs the same as the Nikon combo.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Christopher on January 06, 2019, 04:27:14 am
One reason I never bothered with the H and prefer the big black Dinosaurus. ;)

The 24-70 is a great start, but I would need to have big weight and size reduction to get a FF camera again. Give me a traveling or hiking combo that has around 75Mp and great f4 lenses. Before that happens I find the phase and Fuji a lot more appealing even if I have to carry a few kg more up the mountain.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 06, 2019, 04:34:47 am
One aspect that hasn't been discussed yet anywhere is the sensor dust, reported till date as being a major annoyance of mirrorless vs DSLRs.

I am happy to report that Nikon has seemingly done a great job on this.

I am just back from a week in New Caledonia where I have changed lenses several dozens of times in a super demanding environment where sea, sand and wind were around us 100% of the time... and I haven't seen a single dust spot in the 3,000 images I shot.

As often, we don't speak about non issues without realizing the tremendous amount of engineering that has gone in the design to ensure we wouldn't have to talk about it.  ;D

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: kers on January 06, 2019, 07:41:37 am
One aspect that hasn't been discussed yet anywhere is the sensor dust, reported till date as being a major annoyance of mirrorless vs DSLRs....

Nikon as well as Fuji and others have put the protection glass at some distance of the sensor to make certain dust does not cast sharp shadows on the sensor.
Also it makes it more easy to clean it. (The coverglass is often made of plastic so it is vulnerable)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: hogloff on January 06, 2019, 09:51:12 am
What in the design of the Z7 makes it less prone to sensor dust. The Canon R has a cover that goes across the sensor when a lens is removed which seems like a great innovation...but is there anything in the Z7 that helps alleviate sensor dust.

If not, then dust will be an issue just like any other digital camera.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 06, 2019, 04:15:59 pm
What in the design of the Z7 makes it less prone to sensor dust. The Canon R has a cover that goes across the sensor when a lens is removed which seems like a great innovation...but is there anything in the Z7 that helps alleviate sensor dust.

If not, then dust will be an issue just like any other digital camera.

The fact is that I am not getting any dust in an environment where I was expecting to get a lot.

Nikon is using IBIS to remove dust. On top of that it appears that the glass they are using is treated to reduce dust sticking in the first place.

I would personally not want to expose a fragile shutter to compensate for the absence of equivalent technologies on the Canon R.

But I am not surprised to see you once again deny the possibility that Nikon may have done something right on the Nikon Z. Would you mind explaining why it hurts you so bad they you use some of your precious time again and again to write such posts? Just out of curiosity...

Btw the glass covering the Z sensor is the rhinnest of all mirrorless cameras.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: faberryman on January 06, 2019, 04:30:23 pm
The fact is that I am not getting any dust in an environment where I was expecting to get a lot.
I think the point was that if you change lenses, you are susceptible to getting dust on the sensor. Canon has implemented a mechanism to avoid that. I change lenses frequently and have never had a problem with dust, so Canon's mechanism is not a selling point to me. Others seem to have dust follow them around like Pig-Pen. They may like Canon's feature.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 06, 2019, 04:38:35 pm
And I changed lenses very frequently and still had no dust issues.

I would not have bothered reporting this otherwise.

This has been a Nikon strength in DSLRs too, I haven’t cleaned the sensor of my D850 once in 1.5 years of intense usage, but I was expecting a lot worse with a mirrorless camera based on many reports I read.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: hogloff on January 06, 2019, 04:56:23 pm
The fact is that I am not getting any dust in an environment where I was expecting to get a lot.

Nikon is using IBIS to remove dust. On top of that it appears that the glass they are using is treated to reduce dust sticking in the first place.

I would personally not want to expose a fragile shutter to compensate for the absence of equivalent technologies on the Canon R.

But I am not surprised to see you once again deny the possibility that Nikon may have done something right on the Nikon Z. Would you mind explaining why it hurts you so bad they you use some of your precious time again and again to write such posts? Just out of curiosity...

Btw the glass covering the Z sensor is the rhinnest of all mirrorless cameras.

Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard...don't get your panties so tight. I asked the question as to what technologies Nikon put into their mirrorless cameras to help with dust reduction. I read about Canon's approach and thought it was innovative. Maybe you should just skip my posts if they get you so burned.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: faberryman on January 06, 2019, 05:06:32 pm
This has been a Nikon strength in DSLRs too, I haven’t cleaned the sensor of my D850 once in 1.5 years of intense usage, but I was expecting a lot worse with a mirrorless camera based on many reports I read.
This is not unique to Nikon. I haven't cleaned the sensors on my Fuji's in the three and five years I have owned them. You can't believe everything you read on the internet.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 06, 2019, 05:39:54 pm
Bernard...don't get your panties so tight. I asked the question as to what technologies Nikon put into their mirrorless cameras to help with dust reduction. I read about Canon's approach and thought it was innovative. Maybe you should just skip my posts if they get you so burned.

That's a piece of advice I will gladly follow.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Hulyss on January 06, 2019, 06:52:37 pm
I have the same experience as Bernard with the Z. I suppose that Nikon added a nonstick Fluorine coating on the sensor glass cover that might help to repel dust. But it is only a supposition. To be honest, the sight of this big sensor when we change lenses can be a little worrying depending on the situation but so far so good.
What I find safe, however, is the fact that the stabilization hangs when the device stops. This is, for me, a big +.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 06, 2019, 06:54:17 pm
This is not unique to Nikon. I haven't cleaned the sensors on my Fuji's in the three and five years I have owned them. You can't believe everything you read on the internet.

The reports I have read were from Sony users as far as I recall.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on January 07, 2019, 12:43:33 am
I'm very interested in Bernard's report that the H6D-100 isn't a lot better than the Z7 - that's what I've been unable to compare prints from myself (MF with a huge pixel count advantage). I looked closely at samples from the Z7 and similar-sensored D850 against many full-frame competitors before buying mine, and I've compared against 24 MP APS-C with excellent lenses (Fuji) on my own work. Of course there was going to be a difference from Fuji to Z7, but I was surprised at the magnitude.

The one sample I wasn't able to come up with was 80+ MP medium format (the differences vs. Fuji 50 MP MF, which I considered seriously, were minimal at best). Nobody had an 80+ MP sample at PhotoPlus, nor at my usual dealer, and I didn't make a special trip to find one because I wasn't looking in the $20,000+ price range, nor was I interested in the size and weight of those cameras.

On another topic, I join Kers' interest in a PF telephoto (probably a zoom) for Z-mount. Rumors say that we should be seeing the 14-30mm soon, and a perfect field kit would include 24-70, 14-30 and a compact 70-(something longish). A 70-200 f2.8, unless it's MUCH smaller than the usual lenses in that focal length range, is going to be too heavy to backpack with. A 70-200 f4, or a variable aperture 70-300, would be much better sizes, especially if it's PF...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Bo_Dez on January 07, 2019, 01:07:19 pm
The 24-70 f4 is both compact and excellent.

In fact when I compare in A1 prints the image quality I am getting from the Z7 + 24-7mm f4 handheld to that I am getting from the H6D-100c with a top H lens such as the 50mm II on tripod... I am wondering why I bother...

The H lens alone costs the same as the Nikon combo.

Cheers,
Bernard

Hi Bernard,

Do you have some comparison images to show?

Prints are one thing and they all tend to even out somewhat.

On screen is a whole other thing though—your H6-100 should be knocking socks off your Nikon.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on January 07, 2019, 02:48:03 pm
I would have thought so, on the basis that the 24-70 Z mount f/4 is quite a bit smaller than the F mount f/2.8, but maybe my assumption is incorrect. (I have the 70-200 f/4 and the Z mount 2.8 is said to be a similar size)
 

I had the impression that in the telephoto range the differences in size between mirroless and DSLR are small, the advantage in size comes mostly in the wide range.

A kit with 14-30, 24-70 and 70-300 would cover most hiking needs if you are not into wildlife and the weight should be significantly less than a DSLR equiv.

Considering this I would rather have a sharp WR variable aperture 70-300 for Z than another 70-200 F4 version; this is for hiking and at some extent travel.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: hogloff on January 07, 2019, 03:17:50 pm
Hi Bernard,

Do you have some comparison images to show?

Prints are one thing and they all tend to even out somewhat.

On screen is a whole other thing though—your H6-100 should be knocking socks off your Nikon.

Depends what ones final display is with their images. Mine is prints and books. If someone just displays their images on screens, do we really need all those megapixels?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 07, 2019, 07:03:31 pm
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7860/46601936702_90ef730330_h.jpg)
Nikon Z7 + 24-70 f4 S

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 07, 2019, 09:06:48 pm
https://www.dpreview.com/news/6069040200/nikon-introduces-14-30mm-f4-ultra-wide-zoom-for-z-mount

Specs look great, samples as well.

Dream set up for landscape work.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 07, 2019, 09:32:18 pm
So much so for those nay sayers who have been swearing that Nikon would never ever add features through firmware updates...  ;D

https://www.dpreview.com/news/7011682215/nikon-to-add-eye-af-raw-video-support-and-cfexpress-support-to-z-series

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on January 07, 2019, 10:13:24 pm
So much so for those nay sayers who have been swearing that Nikon would never ever add features through firmware updates...  ;D

https://www.dpreview.com/news/7011682215/nikon-to-add-eye-af-raw-video-support-and-cfexpress-support-to-z-series

Cheers,
Bernard

I hope they don't stop here and work more on that autofocus, I'm sure it can be improved further via firmware.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 07, 2019, 10:24:49 pm
I hope they don't stop here and work more on that autofocus, I'm sure it can be improved further via firmware.

To me it is pretty much the same topic. AF is already fast when the camera knows what to focus on.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: rgmoore on January 07, 2019, 11:37:19 pm
I have been very happy with Nikon Z7 and the 24-70mm f4 S for ergonomics, IQ, size and weight...and I've used Sony A7rIII and other high end Nikon and Canon DSLRs.

For some time I have been planning to purchase Nikkor 200mm f2 for outdoor shallow DoF portraits - partial and full length.

Does anyone have any experience with Nikon Z7 with the Nikkor 200mm f2?  Or would that lens be better combined with D850?  The system would be used on the tripod vast majority of the time.

Thank you in advance.

Richard


Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 07, 2019, 11:42:05 pm
Does anyone have any experience with Nikon Z7 with the Nikkor 200mm f2?  Or would that lens be better combined with D850?  The system would be used on the tripod vast majority of the time.

Yes, I have mounted my first gen 200mm f2.0 VR on the Z7 and it does work pretty well.

The AF of the D850 is still superior to that of the Z7 and I find the Z7 almost too small for such a bulky lens so I tend to use it more on the D850.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on January 07, 2019, 11:57:09 pm
14-30 looks great (drool...) They managed to hit the size and weight of the best APS-C lens in the same class (Fujinon 10-24) almost exactly - but the darn thing is full-frame!

I'd love to see a 70-300 or 100-300 PF Z... Canon did exactly that (they call the same technology DO). Oddly, the current Nikkor 70-300 is a tiny bit lighter than the old Canon DO lens, although much less compact. Could Nikon hit the same size and weight of the (near-twin) 14-30 and 24-70? Of course the 70-300 would be variable aperture, and would extend more when zooming.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on January 08, 2019, 12:31:05 am
NikonRumors has a couple of cutaways of the new 14-30 up. One shows the elements (4 aspheric plus 4 ED - none appear to be both). The other shows the weather sealing - DPReview wasn't sure how sealed it was, but it has big gaskets around each entry point, including one up front that appears to be borrowed from a Nikonos (underwater) lens!
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 08, 2019, 12:37:07 am
14-30 looks great (drool...) They managed to hit the size and weight of the best APS-C lens in the same class (Fujinon 10-24) almost exactly - but the darn thing is full-frame!

I'd love to see a 70-300 or 100-300 PF Z... Canon did exactly that (they call the same technology DO). Oddly, the current Nikkor 70-300 is a tiny bit lighter than the old Canon DO lens, although much less compact. Could Nikon hit the same size and weight of the (near-twin) 14-30 and 24-70? Of course the 70-300 would be variable aperture, and would extend more when zooming.

Indeed.

As far as I am concerned, for a landscape set up, I'd go with the 14-30, 50mm f1.8 and a 70-200 or 70-300.

I would probably not bring the 24-70 f4 since the image quality of the 50mm f1.8 is even higher and that will be a perfect stitching lens when higher res is needed.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on January 08, 2019, 12:58:31 am
Most of the wide zooms tend to be significantly worse on the long end, I would wait to see how the new 14-30 is. It is impressive that it’s so close size wise to the Fuji 10-24, a very good hiking lens that is not WR (although it looks like it could take a lot).
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: rgmoore on January 08, 2019, 12:59:15 am
Thank you Bernard.  Much appreciated.




Yes, I have mounted my first gen 200mm f2.0 VR on the Z7 and it does work pretty well.

The AF of the D850 is still superior to that of the Z7 and I find the Z7 almost too small for such a bulky lens so I tend to use it more on the D850.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 08, 2019, 01:37:50 am
Most of the wide zooms tend to be significantly worse on the long end, I would wait to see how the new 14-30 is. It is impressive that it’s so close size wise to the Fuji 10-24, a very good hiking lens that is not WR (although it looks like it could take a lot).

Good point indeed.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Bo_Dez on January 08, 2019, 04:28:41 am
Depends what ones final display is with their images. Mine is prints and books. If someone just displays their images on screens, do we really need all those megapixels?

The monitor is the judge, jury and executioner of a professional's client.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: kers on January 08, 2019, 07:09:04 am
good news today-  the f4 14-30 is out - only 450 gr!
and upcoming firmware for  Eye AF, Raw video and CFexpress...
It seems Nikon is listening...and working hard to make the Z a succes.
Also a change of tactics with the past were firmware updates did not bring new features.

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: hogloff on January 08, 2019, 10:29:35 am
The monitor is the judge, jury and executioner of a professional's client.

I sell my prints and my clients never ever see the images on any monitor. Do you think a bride will be looking at their online proofs zoomed in 100%...or maybe it's just bit head Photographers.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on January 08, 2019, 10:47:11 am
I sell my prints and my clients never ever see the images on any monitor. Do you think a bride will be looking at their online proofs zoomed in 100%...or maybe it's just bit head Photographers.
A woman who worked with me moved into photography full time and does a lot of wedding work.  Most all clients want electronic wedding albums these days and prints are a very minor part of the mix.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: kers on January 08, 2019, 10:59:35 am
Depends what ones final display is with their images. Mine is prints and books. If someone just displays their images on screens, do we really need all those megapixels?

There are many types of photographers with different needs...
I think you are right that the focus is a bit too much on the amount of pixels...still in my work i need them. (www.beeld.nu/beeld)
If you print for books usually an A3-300px/inch will be perfect; meaning a  24MP camera with a good lens is more than sufficient and leaves even room for cropping.
I also tend to look and judge my photos 100% on screen, but you are right that it often is not important.
Images from mobile phones look lousy at 100% but in print they look better than expected.  (about 25%)
That said - screen is already the most popular way of seeing photographs, but then especially on a phone and laptop, so often a low quality will do.
However in the near future 8K screens will be the new norm, not only for new, but also for the earlier made photographs.
Then we talk about 40-50MP .
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on January 08, 2019, 11:09:42 am
To me it is pretty much the same topic. AF is already fast when the camera knows what to focus on.

Cheers,
Bernard

One would hope.
Issues are with low light and if it uses PDAF with CDAF or just CDAF. With CDAF only it seems it is not that fast.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: hogloff on January 08, 2019, 01:24:00 pm
A woman who worked with me moved into photography full time and does a lot of wedding work.  Most all clients want electronic wedding albums these days and prints are a very minor part of the mix.

Right...but do you think the clients zoom in to 100% for viewing...or do they view them on a simple monitor or TV...or maybe just put them onto a wedding FB page.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: faberryman on January 08, 2019, 01:33:57 pm
Right...but do you think the clients zoom in to 100% for viewing...or do they view them on a simple monitor or TV...or maybe just put them onto a wedding FB page.
Quality does not matter. Any old junk camera will do. The client will not know the difference anyway. Good enough is good enough. Always strive to provide the least quality you can get away with.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: D Fuller on January 08, 2019, 02:07:00 pm
So much so for those nay sayers who have been swearing that Nikon would never ever add features through firmware updates...  ;D

https://www.dpreview.com/news/7011682215/nikon-to-add-eye-af-raw-video-support-and-cfexpress-support-to-z-series

Cheers,
Bernard

For those of us who do video, support for raw output is huge. I had never even hoped for 10-bit raw suppler from a camera in this class. (At least not now.)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: hogloff on January 08, 2019, 02:46:19 pm
Quality does not matter. Any old junk camera will do. The client will not know the difference anyway. Good enough is good enough. Always strive to provide the least quality you can get away with.

Did I say quality doesn't matter anywhere...if not, stop being a jerk.

This line of discussion came from a statement that the Hassy H6-100 images will still knock the socks off the images from the Nikon. I just said it really depends on how one is going to view those images. So please tell me how you got off onto your ignorant tangent blather.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: faberryman on January 08, 2019, 03:05:15 pm
Did I say quality doesn't matter anywhere...if not, stop being a jerk.

This line of discussion came from a statement that the Hassy H6-100 images will still knock the socks off the images from the Nikon. I just said it really depends on how one is going to view those images. So please tell me how you got off onto your ignorant tangent blather.
Referring to photographers who use current technology as "bit head" photographers led me to believe you held them in contempt.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Telecaster on January 08, 2019, 03:21:01 pm
I wouldn't worry about 8K display. A couple weeks ago a friend & I were looking at 4K and 1080 versions of the same pics on his 60" 4K TV at his standard viewing distance (~3m, closer than my own preference). In many cases we had to look carefully to tell which version was which. In very few cases did the 4K version jump out at us as clearly "better." Granted, both of us are approaching 60…but our glasses-corrected eyesight is still pretty good.

The difference between 4K and 8K, as display mediums, will be even more subtle. IMO wider color gamut and higher display dynamic range will have far greater visual impact.

-Dave-
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on January 08, 2019, 04:12:57 pm
Where dids you see that the RAW video support is 10-bit? I'm not doubting that it is - but that's an even bigger deal than if it's 8-bit... I don't think any other primarily still camera does RAW video at all? The Gh5 and GH5s don't, and that would be my go-to "if anyone did..." for video features. It's quite possible, since the $1295 Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera does RAW video - it can't possibly have much more processing power and output bandwidth than the Nikons.

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 08, 2019, 04:46:27 pm
https://nikonrumors.com/2019/01/08/nikon-z-eye-af-demo-video.aspx/

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 08, 2019, 04:50:17 pm
Where dids you see that the RAW video support is 10-bit? I'm not doubting that it is - but that's an even bigger deal than if it's 8-bit... I don't think any other primarily still camera does RAW video at all? The Gh5 and GH5s don't, and that would be my go-to "if anyone did..." for video features. It's quite possible, since the $1295 Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera does RAW video - it can't possibly have much more processing power and output bandwidth than the Nikons.

The Z6 is shaping out to be one of the best affordable video cameras there is.
- no crop 4k
- 10 bits
- raw (soon)
- few aliasing
- great video AF with eye AF (soon)

Nikon has no dedicated video line to protect, they will deliver whatever they can come up with.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: hogloff on January 08, 2019, 05:00:31 pm
Referring to photographers who use current technology as "bit head" photographers led me to believe you held them in contempt.

I do call photographers that examine every deep dark corner of their images at 100% view bit heads. I've yet to meet a customer / client or in fact any acquaintance that looks at images on their computers at 100%.

Just bit head photographers that worry too much about gear.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Ray on January 08, 2019, 05:29:58 pm
I wouldn't worry about 8K display. A couple weeks ago a friend & I were looking at 4K and 1080 versions of the same pics on his 60" 4K TV at his standard viewing distance (~3m, closer than my own preference). In many cases we had to look carefully to tell which version was which. In very few cases did the 4K version jump out at us as clearly "better." Granted, both of us are approaching 60…but our glasses-corrected eyesight is still pretty good.

The difference between 4K and 8K, as display mediums, will be even more subtle. IMO wider color gamut and higher display dynamic range will have far greater visual impact.

-Dave-

Good point, Dave. This is the main reason I haven't yet upgraded to a 4K OLED TV. In order to appreciate the full detail of a 5.9mp (1080x1920 at 120 pixels/inch) photographic still, on my current 65" Plasma HD, I have to sit as close as 2.5 to 3 metres away. An image of twice the resolution would require a screen 4x the area, that is, 130" diagonal, in order to see the full detail from a distance of 3m.

I see that LG is offering an 88" screen with 8k capability. Not nearly big enough.  ;)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 08, 2019, 05:30:55 pm
We Nikon enthusiasts should learn about video because the Z6/Z7 is bringing it on. I have worked with video for years, first with the Sony FS-700 with 4K raw enabled exporting to the Convergent Design 7Q and currently with the Sony FS5 and exporting raw to the Atomos Shogun Inferno, both cameras providing 4K raw in different formats. Because of the above cameras I did not take Nikon’s video seriously until the Nikon Z6/Z7, which will work with the Atomos recorders, even the Inferno that I already have.

And the Atomos devices solve a big problem for DSLRs and Mirrorless cameras: sound. The Atomos devices totally handle XLR input and record sound as well as video. I’m even considering selling my Sony FS5 and using the Nikon Z7 for video, but I’m not quite there yet.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: D Fuller on January 08, 2019, 08:56:40 pm
Where dids you see that the RAW video support is 10-bit? I'm not doubting that it is - but that's an even bigger deal than if it's 8-bit... I don't think any other primarily still camera does RAW video at all? The Gh5 and GH5s don't, and that would be my go-to "if anyone did..." for video features. It's quite possible, since the $1295 Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera does RAW video - it can't possibly have much more processing power and output bandwidth than the Nikons.

I haven’t been able to find an official Nikon announcement on this, but I can’t imagine them reducing the Z’s bit depth for raw output. ProRes Raw, which is (according to the Nikonrumor article) what they’re using, is capable of carrying a full 4:4:4 16-bit signal, so to do anything less than the 10-bit 4:2:2 signal they’re already outputting would be silly. And, given that Nikon understood that outputting a log file with less than 10 bits was not a good idea, I can’t see them doing that for a raw file.

As far as I know, you’re right about this being the only still-primary camera that will output a raw signal. And, given that, I’m very interested to know just how “raw” it will be. I’ve shot motion on Red cameras since 2007. For Redcode raw files, raw means the undebayered sensor data, compressed. Everything—even ISO—is metadata and can be changed in post. Still cameras don’t work that way, and there’s a lot yet to be known about Nikon’s raw implementation. It will be interesting to see just what they do deliver for a raw format.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: davidgp on January 09, 2019, 10:06:12 am
And the Atomos devices solve a big problem for DSLRs and Mirrorless cameras: sound. The Atomos devices totally handle XLR input and record sound as well as video. I’m even considering selling my Sony FS5 and using the Nikon Z7 for video, but I’m not quite there yet.

Are the pre-amps good in the Atomos devices? The ones that come with XLR input? I usually use zoom external audio recorders and sync audio in post in Final Cut. In case some day I think into buying an external recorder, maybe I pay a bit more for one with XLR input...

P.D.: Apologies for the off-topic
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 09, 2019, 10:46:06 am
Are the pre-amps good in the Atomos devices? The ones that come with XLR input? I usually use zoom external audio recorders and sync audio in post in Final Cut. In case some day I think into buying an external recorder, maybe I pay a bit more for one with XLR input...

P.D.: Apologies for the off-topic

I have a couple of Zoom recorders laying around here. I don't use them anymore. I am entirely happy with the Convergent Design 7Q and more recently with the sound and XLR input on the Atomos Shogun Inferno that I am currently using. Or I can use my sony SF5, which has dual XLR inputs.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Alan Goldhammer on January 09, 2019, 04:44:35 pm
I'm picking up by Z6 tomorrow (I really don't need the extra pixels that the Z7 offers for my type of work).  I have a question on card readers for the XQD.  Sony offer two different readers.  The high price model has two slots, one for XQD and the other for SD.  Since I already have a card reader for the latter, I don't need the additional slot.  I'm wondering what others are used for reading cards.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on January 09, 2019, 05:34:50 pm
I'm picking up by Z6 tomorrow (I really don't need the extra pixels that the Z7 offers for my type of work).  I have a question on card readers for the XQD.  Sony offer two different readers.  The high price model has two slots, one for XQD and the other for SD.  Since I already have a card reader for the latter, I don't need the additional slot.  I'm wondering what others are used for reading cards.

I'm using this: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1242140-REG/sony_qda_sb1_j_xqd_usb_adapter.html
Cheaper than most and so far good enough.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on January 10, 2019, 12:22:03 am
I have the dual-slot Sony reader, for no other reason than it was the one Hunt's had in stock the day I picked up the Z7. It wasn't worth ordering the  less expensive model and paying shipping (it's under B+H's free shipping threshold) to save $30 before shipping.


It's certainly expensive for a card reader, but it seems well built. I've never used the SD slot, because the Thunderbolt 3 dock I have it plugged into has a fast SD slot of its own. The only reason to want that slot is if you don't already have a USB 3.0 (or faster) SD card reader, or if the one you have does nothing else and is taking up a USB port - use the Sony for both and save a port. If your SD slot is built into your computer, built into a hub or dock, or part of a USB 3.0 card reader you use for CF or another format, the SD slot is useless (if you have an older desktop or laptop with a built in SD reader, try the Sony to see if it's faster - some built in readers are actually USB 2.0).
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on January 10, 2019, 08:34:50 am
I'm using this: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1242140-REG/sony_qda_sb1_j_xqd_usb_adapter.html
Cheaper than most and so far good enough.

I have the same one. I wonder if it will work with CFExpress cards? We will find out I suppose ...
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on January 10, 2019, 10:54:08 am
https://m.dpreview.com/articles/5876118090/image-stablization-showdown-nikon-z7-vs-sony-a7r-iii

Interesting test, confirms at some extent some of my older rants. Those were with a D750 where the combination of mirror slap and the way I'm holding the camera made it necessary to use OIS for  sharp results at 1/FL. Curious that I could do it with an X-T2 without stabilization despite higher pixel density.

Going back to this test. My conclusion from this is that you need stabilization to get sharp images at 1/FL. Their cutoff of 50% seems at little low, it means I have to chimp and check both focus and sharpness for each shot under 1/FL or take multiple shots of each scene with the added pain of sorting them later. I suspect most people will take the hit of higher ISO and save the multiple shots at lower ISO and less than 1/FL method for the scene with tricky dynamic range and color.

PS. Or you could use a camera with better stabilization for the bread and butter shots (such as m43) and save the full frame for tripod shots of the special scenes
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: faberryman on January 10, 2019, 10:56:50 am
Going back to this test. My conclusion from this is that you need stabilization to get sharp images at 1/FL. Their cutoff of 50% seems at little low...
No kidding. Can you imagine honest marketing: "With our new image stabilization, there's a 50-50 chance you'll get a sharp image."
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on January 10, 2019, 12:11:18 pm
At 1/FL with stabilization you get 100% with both systems. I was referring at DPReview cutoff of 50% for those 2-4 stops that they measured, I would think that at least 75% sharp enough, with most being as sharp as possible, to be considered reliable. You can maybe add the 25% sharpness cutoff as "you can get lucky if you try hard enough".
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on January 10, 2019, 12:24:52 pm
PS. both have very good stabilization at telephoto ranges though, an honest 4 stops
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 10, 2019, 04:11:53 pm
And then you go back to check the initial Northup Z7 review where they they reported that the stabilization of the Sony was much better... and you get the confirmation once more that those guys simply have zero credibility.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on January 11, 2019, 12:14:36 am
How are people testing stabilization? I tried it hand holding at a range of speeds and it’s all over the place. I am not a beginner and think I know how to hold a camera. I told tremble at all. I use my breath much like when target shooting, in which I was trained years ago. Yet there was little consistency. Yes you can pick up a trend if you shoot multiple frames at each shutter speed but it’s a long way from scientific that’s for sure.

Anyway this is going to become another pissing contest like DR. A camera with half a stop less DR is immediately branded as inferior and so it will go for IBIS.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 11, 2019, 12:20:05 am
Anyway this is going to become another pissing contest like DR. A camera with half a stop less DR is immediately branded as inferior and so it will go for IBIS.

That was never the case for DR. The gap between Sony/Nikon and Canon used to be around 2 stops which was a very real issue. Since the 5DmkIV to the gap has been reduced to a much lower value and the DR topic isn't that hot any more.

The initial report of the Northup was stating that the Z7 IBIS was nowhere near as good as the Sony. Unsurprisingly very misleading.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on January 11, 2019, 01:05:43 am
That was never the case for DR. The gap between Sony/Nikon and Canon used to be around 2 stops which was a very real issue. Since the 5DmkIV to the gap has been reduced to a much lower value and the DR topic isn't that hot any more.

The initial report of the Northup was stating that the Z7 IBIS was nowhere near as good as the Sony. Unsurprisingly very misleading.

Cheers,
Bernard


That doesn’t surprise me at all.  Loads of youtubers made loads of very negative comments about the Z series. Self proclaimed experts. Took me 5 minutes with the camera and I was well impressed. If there is any difference between the IBIS it’s going to be small, much smaller than the differences between peoples ability to hold a camera correctly.

What I have noticed with the Sony is best Stabilisation with long lenses is when both body and lens are stabilized and the camera hands certain aspects of stabilization off to the lens and does some on the chip.
Im sure Nikon do something similar.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: jeremyrh on January 11, 2019, 01:18:45 am
And then you go back to check the initial Northup Z7 review where they they reported that the stabilization of the Sony was much better... and you get the confirmation once more that those guys simply have zero credibility.

Cheers,
Bernard

The Northrups are an entertainment show, really. Sometimes they have useful information but that's mostly incidental to the business of generating clicks.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: davidgp on January 12, 2019, 06:26:11 pm
I have a couple of Zoom recorders laying around here. I don't use them anymore. I am entirely happy with the Convergent Design 7Q and more recently with the sound and XLR input on the Atomos Shogun Inferno that I am currently using. Or I can use my sony SF5, which has dual XLR inputs.

Thanks Michael... I will add that to the bonus of buying a Atomos recorder for my camera... I can leave the audio recorder and external monitor at home...


http://dgpfotografia.com
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Peter_DL on January 13, 2019, 08:23:41 am

https://m.dpreview.com/articles/5876118090/image-stablization-showdown-nikon-z7-vs-sony-a7r-iii

… My conclusion from this is that you need stabilization to get sharp images at 1/FL. Their cutoff of 50% seems at little low, it means I have to chimp and check both focus and sharpness for each shot under 1/FL or take multiple shots of each scene with the added pain of sorting them later.

Valid point. The test and the derived f-stops of IS advantage would have been more meaningful if they went to higher shutter speeds of 1/2FL to 1/5FL without stabilization until a high success rate is reached.

Quote
PS. both have very good stabilization at telephoto ranges though, an honest 4 stops.

… but then this is what OIS alone already promises.
So the benefit of IBIS combined with OIS remains unclear from this test.

Quote
PS. Or you could use a camera with better stabilization for the bread and butter shots (such as m43)

I was actually interested to buy into m4/3 for this reason, but I became unsure to what extend this claim regarding better stabilization is really true.

The results here with the Olympus E-M1 MkII at 200 mm equiv. and dual IS are worse compared to the Nikon Z 7:

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympus-om-d-e-m1-mark-ii/5

--
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: kers on January 13, 2019, 09:51:01 am

The results here with the Olympus E-M1 MkII at 200 mm equiv. and dual IS are worse compared to the Nikon Z 7:
https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympus-om-d-e-m1-mark-ii/5...
and then a stabilized sharp 46MP photo is different from a sharp 20MP photo; 46Mp is far more critical.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 13, 2019, 10:31:46 am
https://www.dpreview.com/sample-galleries/8470255105/nikon-z-14-30mm-f4-photos-by-jimmy-mcintyre/8128869592

Pretty impressive I would say. I assume that this is with lens corrections applied, but this is better in the corners than my Rodenstock 23mm...

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on January 13, 2019, 12:13:52 pm
and then a stabilized sharp 46MP photo is different from a sharp 20MP photo; 46Mp is far more critical.

This is on thing that I don't fully comprehend because I would have thought it should be dependent on the pixel density not on the total number of pixels, particularly if you print. Based on my experience with the D750 and X-T2 I know this is not necessarily true.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: armand on January 13, 2019, 12:15:52 pm
https://www.dpreview.com/sample-galleries/8470255105/nikon-z-14-30mm-f4-photos-by-jimmy-mcintyre/8128869592

Pretty impressive I would say. I assume that this is with lens corrections applied, but this is better in the corners than my Rodenstock 23mm...

Cheers,
Bernard

I wonder why they went with 14-30 instead of 14-28 or 14-35. Unless the 28 is sharper on the 14-30 vs a 14-28.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on January 13, 2019, 03:21:57 pm
Especially on a camera as well sealed as the Z, I'm always grateful for useful focal lengths covered by two adjacent zooms - for no reason other than reducing lens changes...

Jim Kasson has published tests of the 50mm f1.8 S against various competitors, and it comes a lot closer to the Otus than it has any right to at its size and price (and easily beats the Sony "Zeiss" 55mm f1.8). He didn't have a Sony Zeiss 50mm f1.4...

Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: hogloff on January 13, 2019, 03:51:39 pm
Especially on a camera as well sealed as the Z, I'm always grateful for useful focal lengths covered by two adjacent zooms - for no reason other than reducing lens changes...

Jim Kasson has published tests of the 50mm f1.8 S against various competitors, and it comes a lot closer to the Otus than it has any right to at its size and price (and easily beats the Sony "Zeiss" 55mm f1.8). He didn't have a Sony Zeiss 50mm f1.4...

Beats in what ways? There are so many image attributes that just saying beats is very meaningless.

Beats in sharpness in the centre, mid frame, edges, corners and at what distances ( minimum, 8', infinity )
Beats in bokeh and again at what distances.
Beats in CA
Beats in edge falloff
Beats in colours
Beats in contrast
Etc.....
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 13, 2019, 04:32:44 pm
Beats in what ways? There are so many image attributes that just saying beats is very meaningless.

Beats in sharpness in the centre, mid frame, edges, corners and at what distances ( minimum, 8', infinity )
Beats in bokeh and again at what distances.
Beats in CA
Beats in edge falloff
Beats in colours
Beats in contrast
Etc.....

I'm not going to argue it, but will simply state, IMO I have both lenses. the 50mm f/1.8 Sand the Zeiss Otus 55mm and although the Z7 lens is pretty good, it is not as good or better than the Otus 55mm. That my experience. I like them both, but they are not equal.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: faberryman on January 13, 2019, 04:35:58 pm
I'm not going to argue it, but will simply state, IMO I have both lenses. the 50mm f/1.8 Sand the Zeiss Otus 55mm and although the Z7 lens is pretty good, it is not as good or better than the Otus 55mm. That my experience. I like them both, but they are not equal.
What? With that large throat diameter the S lens should be the best. At least that is what Nikon is touting. It's suppose to be a new age in optics.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Telecaster on January 13, 2019, 04:37:38 pm
I take all IBIS/IS/ETC ratings with a big fat grain of salt. The results are to a great extent user dependent. How a particular system performs with me operating it…that's what I care about. I can only find that out by taking a bunch o' photos.

-Dave-
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Hulyss on January 13, 2019, 05:35:53 pm
Many ( a lot !!) don't even know that the operator need to wait till the image is stabilised before pressing the release. So I gess that many photographers find IBIS disapointing because they don't even know there is a particular modus operandi.

(https://i.imgur.com/KJkta7H.jpg)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 13, 2019, 06:37:54 pm
What? With that large throat diameter the S lens should be the best. At least that is what Nikon is touting. It's suppose to be a new age in optics.

I understand the physics. I expect the the new Noct 0.95 may be an Otus, but Nikon did not put enough correction in the 50mm S, even though it is a nice lens. Just my opinion from testing both in the work I do..
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 13, 2019, 10:32:29 pm
What? With that large throat diameter the S lens should be the best. At least that is what Nikon is touting. It's suppose to be a new age in optics.

The 50mm f1.8 S is 5 times cheaper, twice lighter and 1.4 times smaller than the Otus 55mm f1.4. Granted it is 2/3 stop slower but it’s AF and better weather sealed.

How can you be not impressed by its level of performance and also claim an objective view on this?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Dan Wells on January 14, 2019, 12:43:05 am
Nobody (except people trying to put up a straw man) has ever said "better than an Otus". What Jim Kasson said is "much better than the comparably sized and priced Sony 55mm f1.8, and relatively close to the Otus".

Bernard correctly makes the point that it is a far more convenient lens than an Otus.

There are some applications where the convenience doesn't matter at all, and if you have such an application and a very high budget, the Otus is still the best ~50mm there is.

I'd never buy an Otus (or the Noct) due to size, weight and sealing. If I could afford one, I'd buy the two Nikkor primes and the 14-30 to go with my present 24-70, then add either a PC Nikkor or two or the 500mm PF - two exotics I'd love to have.

My next lens is certainly the 14-30, which I really want to have in hand before hiking season.  The positive reviews of the 50 are causing to be much more interested in it than I usually am in primes that duplicate a good zoom I already own (I don't tend to do shallow DOF terribly often)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: kers on January 14, 2019, 07:44:00 am
I'm not going to argue it, but will simply state, IMO I have both lenses. the 50mm f/1.8 Sand the Zeiss Otus 55mm and although the Z7 lens is pretty good, it is not as good or better than the Otus 55mm. That my experience. I like them both, but they are not equal.
It seems more sensible to compare the upcoming Nikkor  .95 58mm S  against the Zeiss Otus 1.4 55mm;
both meant to be state of the art, both expensive, heavy, big and manual focussed.
( nikons lens will be better weather sealed)
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: Michael Erlewine on January 14, 2019, 10:05:22 am
It seems more sensible to compare the upcoming Nikkor  .95 58mm S  against the Zeiss Otus 1.4 55mm;
both meant to be state of the art, both expensive, heavy, big and manual focussed.
( nikons lens will be better weather sealed)

I agree, it does and I will be doing that, but I expect (unless Nikon screws up) for the New Noct to be of Otus quality or higher, higher being some special image-quality. Nikon knows how to do this. I have the APO El Nikkor 105mm lens and it is Otus quality and has a very special IQ. I just can't compare the Otus to the 50mm S f/1.8 without a little embarrassment. The 50mm f/1.8 is a wonderful lens in its own right. Just because the Otus is IMO better corrected does not disparage the Z lens. It's really good IMO too, just not THAT good.
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BJL on January 15, 2019, 07:10:13 pm
In the new thread https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?action=post;quote=1089825;topic=128593.0;last_msg=1089825
re: The 1600 reply topic...."Nikon's new mirrorless system, coming in...late September 2018".   How about closing this thread and whenever anyone has a specific topic related to this camera, they start a New Topic built for that subject.  I stopped reading this thread about 3 months ago because it was so rambling and covered too many topics.  And when it is broad with so many replies, it is very hard to try to find specific topic info that may be buried within it. ...
Brad Smith makes the suggestion that this thread has become way too long and sprawling, and it would be better to close this one and invite new threads on more specific topics.

That makes sense to me; this has become almost an entire forum for "35mm format EVF cameras" in a single thread.
And as the starter of that thread, I could close it to new posts.
But I am asking opinions of others in this thread before I decide whether to do so; both here and in Brad's thread.

So what do you think, Bernard et al? Time to move on to new threads?
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BernardLanguillier on January 16, 2019, 12:12:05 am
Surprisingly, this isn’t my thread, but either way is fine with me. 😀

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: Nikon’s new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
Post by: BJL on January 16, 2019, 08:43:06 pm
Every one who commented seems fine with retiring this thread, so I will: off you go and start some more specific ones for the numerous themes being discussed here.