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Author Topic: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018  (Read 83259 times)

BJL

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #800 on: August 28, 2018, 08:05:34 pm »

I believe that was Nikon with the 1 series, wasn't it (sept 2011)? Sensor was manufactured by Aptina if I recall correctly.
Thanks; corrected.

But yes, agreed, the a7 mostly packaged existing technologies in a compact form factor and then Sony did iterative improvements from then on. I personally think that this is still innovation from a product standpoint, but yes, indeed not a revolution from a technology standpoint.

Now, an evolutionary product may result in near revolutionary improvements for some categories of users.
Agreed. I am not much interested in the "revolutionary vs mere evolution" debate; I care about how much a new product or system advances possibilities for photographers, and a "mere" mash-up and tweaking of existing ideas and technologies into a combination not previously available can do that.

Anyway, "revolution vs evolution" is a false dichotomy for what is only degrees of difference; every camera at this stage builds on  a vast history of previous innovations.  As Carl Sagan said,
Quote
If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. ó https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/32952-if-you-wish-to-make-an-apple-pie-from-scratch
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #801 on: August 28, 2018, 09:32:11 pm »

https://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2018/08/28/nikon-z7-engineer-interview-deep-dive-q

Nikon's engineer's view seems to be that the AF of the Z7 + S lenses shouldn't be quite as fast as the D850 + D5, but still very fast. This comment doesn't seem aligned with the recent report from the Northup.

Cheers,
Bernard

eronald

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #802 on: August 29, 2018, 01:02:16 am »

https://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2018/08/28/nikon-z7-engineer-interview-deep-dive-q

Nikon's engineer's view seems to be that the AF of the Z7 + S lenses shouldn't be quite as fast as the D850 + D5, but still very fast. This comment doesn't seem aligned with the recent report from the Northup.

Cheers,
Bernardior

Who cares? The initial body will be suboptimal in a variety of ways. Because it needs to be suboptimal by design.
It has to be suboptimal because the engineers don't know yet what the real world and manufacturing tolerances will do to its behavior in the hands of users.

Sony first brought out the A7, but the A7R2 was the huge step forwards as I recall.

Edmund
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #803 on: August 29, 2018, 02:34:55 am »

Sufficient AF speed and accuracy will be important for me, I do care.

I know that many Sony early adopters did forgive a lot to the a7r and a7rII in exchange for compactness, but this is 2018 and we have D850/D5/a7rIII to compare against.

Cheers,
Bernard

davidgp

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #804 on: August 29, 2018, 04:26:16 am »

All true but Lula is quite Sony-centric so ignoring a major innovation from Nikon does not surprise me.

Yes I am. Nikon are a reputable and respectable camera company, and are introducing a new mount (I don't count the failed CX one) after sticking with 60-odd years with the old one.

They seem to be readying themselves for the future in imaging.

Maybe you both should go to Kevin message in this same thread: https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=124549.msg1063264#msg1063264 where he says that it was impossible for him to travel to the presentation event because he is in a workshop and both systems: Z7 and Z6 are going to be in his hands for him to review and plans to give enough details here.

Paulo Bizarro

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #805 on: August 29, 2018, 06:03:19 am »

Maybe you both should go to Kevin message in this same thread: https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=124549.msg1063264#msg1063264 where he says that it was impossible for him to travel to the presentation event because he is in a workshop and both systems: Z7 and Z6 are going to be in his hands for him to review and plans to give enough details here.

Thanks, I missed that. Apologies to Kevin.

chez

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #806 on: August 29, 2018, 09:45:48 am »

Sufficient AF speed and accuracy will be important for me, I do care.

I know that many Sony early adopters did forgive a lot to the a7r and a7rII in exchange for compactness, but this is 2018 and we have D850/D5/a7rIII to compare against.

Cheers,
Bernard

If AF speed and accuracy are important to you, you need to use the new lenses as the legacy lenses won't deliver speed and accuracy as they do on DSLR's.
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sc_john

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #807 on: August 29, 2018, 10:27:01 am »

If AF speed and accuracy are important to you, you need to use the new lenses as the legacy lenses won't deliver speed and accuracy as they do on DSLR's.

Posted 8/28 at Imaging Resource from "IR Interview: A deeper dive with the Nikon Z7 engineers", https://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2018/08/28/nikon-z7-engineer-interview-deep-dive-q:

"Z-series AF performance with F-mount lenses

This is obviously a huge area of interest for existing Nikon shooters, and is the area in which Nikon potentially leaps ahead of their competitors in terms of lens choice. In our pre-launch briefing, Nikon stated that, on a lens-by-lens basis, F-mount lenses should focus just as quickly and accurately as on a body like the D850. I pointedly asked for confirmation on this point, and they assured me that that indeed should be the case.
"

I guess time will tell.

John
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chez

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #808 on: August 29, 2018, 10:47:08 am »

Posted 8/28 at Imaging Resource from "IR Interview: A deeper dive with the Nikon Z7 engineers", https://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2018/08/28/nikon-z7-engineer-interview-deep-dive-q:

"Z-series AF performance with F-mount lenses

This is obviously a huge area of interest for existing Nikon shooters, and is the area in which Nikon potentially leaps ahead of their competitors in terms of lens choice. In our pre-launch briefing, Nikon stated that, on a lens-by-lens basis, F-mount lenses should focus just as quickly and accurately as on a body like the D850. I pointedly asked for confirmation on this point, and they assured me that that indeed should be the case.
"

I guess time will tell.

John

Why not quote the entire thing where they go deeper into it and discuss the limitations.
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sc_john

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #809 on: August 29, 2018, 01:36:21 pm »

Why not quote the entire thing where they go deeper into it and discuss the limitations.

Chez,

Take a deep breath and count to ten. I wasn't attacking you. I linked the entire article for folks to read... and I also added "I guess time will tell". Just because an engineer discusses intent, it doesn't prove out the results. Time and usage will prove the results.

John
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D Fuller

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #810 on: August 29, 2018, 01:39:09 pm »

Sufficient AF speed and accuracy will be important for me, I do care.

I know that many Sony early adopters did forgive a lot to the a7r and a7rII in exchange for compactness, but this is 2018 and we have D850/D5/a7rIII to compare against.

Cheers,
Bernard

I expect that we're going to find that AF performance is somewhat different from what we've gotten used to from our SLRs. Pure conjecture, of course, but it's based on what I experienced when I tested a Leica SL, and my experience with the Sony a7 series.

The Leica didn't track moving things nearly as well as I'm used to my Nikons doing, yet for single-shot AF, it (with its 24-90) was the fastest AF I've ever experienced. By contrast, I find my Sony a7r3's continuous AF to work quite well, but the single-shot AF seems almost always to be slower than I want. I always feel like I'm waiting for the camera in that mode.

I suspect that the engineering choices (phase vs contrast detect, different motors with different behaviors, etc.) in mirrorless are requiring the engineers to make decisions that impact how various focus modes perform in different ways than we're used to on SLRs. Without long-term testing, we're really not going to know how the new set of compromises works for our particular kind of shooting.
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eronald

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #811 on: August 29, 2018, 03:41:16 pm »

Don't hold your breath Bernard, for then next 2 or 3 years your D5 will still be speed champ.

Edmund
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #812 on: August 29, 2018, 05:51:32 pm »

Don't hold your breath Bernard, for then next 2 or 3 years your D5 will still be speed champ.

I am pretty sure that Nikon will release the Z8 and Z9 in year 2019.

Odds are that the designs are at advanced stage and they will match the availability of the pro zooms. There is just no way they would release the 24-70mm f2.8 and 70-200mm f2.8 without matching pro spec cameras. So this roadmap is as good as a Z pro body roadmap to me.

And I hope that at least you will admit that my Nikon forecast have all been totally spot on these past years and months. ;)

This being said, even an a9 is not yet a match for the D5 AFwise so I had no expectation to replace my D5 with a Z7 or Z6. I find the size of the D5 a good match for the lenses I use it with, and that bulk isnít problematic for those assignments.

Plus owning a big camera makes me feel more manly. :D

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: August 29, 2018, 10:06:13 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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BJL

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Nikonís new mirrorless system: how good will its C-AF and S-AF be?
« Reply #813 on: August 29, 2018, 06:40:39 pm »

... it's based on what I experienced when I tested a Leica SL, and my experience with the Sony a7 series.

The Leica didn't track moving things nearly as well as I'm used to my Nikons doing, yet for single-shot AF, it (with its 24-90) was the fastest AF I've ever experienced. By contrast, I find my Sony a7r3's continuous AF to work quite well, but the single-shot AF seems almost always to be slower than I want. ...

I suspect that the engineering choices (phase vs contrast detect, different motors with different behaviors, etc.) ...

The Leica has only CDAF, and the motion tracking (C-AF) weakness is to be expected there; Nikon's on-sensor PDAF (and hybrid AF when using adapted F-mount lenses that have OIS) should do much better. I have no idea why the Sony A7R3 is sluggish with S-AF!

I would not put much weight on any adverse reviews so far of AF performance, because the firmware on review models so far is clearly not the release candidate. (Favorable information is more trust-worthy, as I doubt that future firmware updates will degrade anything!)
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BJL

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #814 on: August 29, 2018, 06:53:42 pm »

And I hope that at least you will admit that my Nikon forecast have all been totally spot on these past years and months. ;)
You were a bit off in this one: https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=124549.msg1059704#msg1059704
But then I was off in the other direction and you revised and improved your prediction as more information became available.
Comparisons come to mind, but political discussions are banned here ...
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #815 on: August 29, 2018, 07:09:21 pm »

You were a bit off in this one: https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=124549.msg1059704#msg1059704
But then I was off in the other direction and you revised and improved your prediction as more information became available.
Comparisons come to mind, but political discussions are banned here ...

Yes, indeed. But I was more speaking about the overall directions, the fact that Nikon would go for FF mirrorless and not APS-C (which was by far the dominant opinion, including that of Thom Hogan), that they would target the top (including all the features we have come to expect from top mirrorless), that they would come up with a design focused on image quality rather than compactness, that they would find a way to ensure good AF performance with F mount lenses, the rough schedule,...

Note that I never claimed that they would be totally successful, just that it would make sense for them to go in that direction.

Cheers,
Bernard

Kevin Raber

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #816 on: August 29, 2018, 07:31:42 pm »

Amazing the reaction this thread has going.  First, apologies for not putting anything on the home page but I can't be everywhere.  I was gone for two-plus weeks running two back to back workshops.  Just about every YouTuber had the bases covered on the launch so not much to say by putting something on the LuLa front page.  I don't usually put something on the home page until I have something in my hands.  Plus, Nikon didn't invite me to their event.  LuLa most likely wasn't on Nikon's favorite list with some of the criticisms towards it over the last few years.  (see the last video for example where Michael has a few words). 

Last night I finally got my hands on the Nikon Z cameras.  I have also ordered on my own dime both cameras and two lenses so we can try them.  While my time was short with them I have to say this regardless of all the negativity I am reading out there that I think we need to give Nikon a chance.  Frankly, I want to shoot with the camera and see how it does.  I want to see what else is coming down the pike.  There is no question Canon will have a system.  So far it's the best-kept secret next to the original iPhone.  Kudos to Canon.  Fuji will certainly announce something too.  And, a lot of predictions about Sony announcements coming.  It is Photokina year and everything will certainly be announced by the time that show opens. Heck, look what Phase One announced the other day.  Who would have ever dreamed of 151 megapixels?

The next 30 days are going to be a lot of fun.  I can say that for certain.  I look forward to having one of the first Nikon production units.  I also look forward to seeing what else is coming our way.  I am left scratching my head a bit on some of Nikon's choices regarding the Z cameras but I'll wait until I have one to say whether these thoughts have any bearing on the user experience.

I look forward to doing an On The Rocks episode where once everything is announced and shipping where we can sit down and talk about all the offerings.  We also plan to have a representative on future episodes from all the major camera companies.  We just finished editing an episode on Olympus.  Look for that in the next week.  We have an episode scheduled with Sony and hopefully once we have products in our hands Canon and Nikon as well as Fuji. 

It's never been a better time to be a photographer.  The choices coming our way are tremendous.  As a photographer, you'll be able to choose the best solution for you and the photography that you enjoy. And, let's not forget that there are also numerous processing and post-processing option available to take our photography further.

So, stay tuned, it's going to get real interesting. 

P.S. A lot of talk about LuLa being a Sony-centric site.  In the recent article where I shared a video Micahel and I did four years ago we made it very clear we were all about innovation.  Sony was and has been one of the major invovators.  Kind of funny how many are comparing what Nikon is offering to the a7 III as the camera to beat.  Let's not forget how many cameras Sony has announced in the last few year.  Each of them improving on the previous model.  Wonder if Nikon and others can keep that pace. 

To make it clear I own Sony, Fuji, Panasonic and Olympus and shoot regularlly with each.  I look forward to adding Nikon and Canon to the list soon. As always we report on here what we like and use.  I can't wait.



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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #817 on: August 29, 2018, 09:49:02 pm »

Looking forward to your findings Kevin, I know they will be unbiased and that you will tell it like you see it.

I expect to get a Z7 around availability date in Japan, which means in less than a month. If you are interested I could write a short piece about the experience of a Nikon D850 shooter with the Z7? I guess I'll need one or 2 month to get usable conclusions.

Let me know.

Cheers,
Bernard

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #818 on: August 30, 2018, 07:54:33 am »


Plus owning a big camera makes me feel more manly. :D

Cheers,
Bernard
It also can be used as a weapon like the medieval mace in case you are in need of self-defense.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #819 on: August 30, 2018, 08:30:51 am »

It also can be used as a weapon like the medieval mace in case you are in need of self-defense.

Yes, as hammer also.

I believe it should also work as a jetliner parking wheel stopper... only with the lens on though.

Cheers,
Bernard
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