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Author Topic: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018  (Read 71281 times)

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #740 on: August 26, 2018, 05:25:39 pm »

Whenever there is huge buildup to the release of a major new camera, with the internet fora in a tizzy with anticipation, what inevitably happens when the camera is actually released is that the internet fora again light up with negativity about some feature that is missing or some spec. This becomes THE DEALBREAKER for all those who were never really going to buy the camera in the first place. They just couldnít bear the idea that there would be a new camera out there that made them feel inadequate about what they already owned. So, they need THE DEALBREAKER. In the case of the Z7, we now have it. ONE CARD SLOT.

Thatís an interesting analysis.

Cheers,
Bernard

BernardLanguillier

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« Last Edit: August 26, 2018, 07:51:07 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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eronald

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #742 on: August 26, 2018, 05:57:55 pm »

Edmund,

A teenage newbie turns to his best friend, and asks for advice in choosing his first camera. ďBest go to the guys in the knowĒ says the Ďbfí and points him to LuLa and this thread.
Newb reads the thread.
Newb thanks his Ďbfí for the best advice he could have ever given him.
Newb buys the iPhoneX.

On a more serious note, Bernard doesnít need an adapter for his Otus.
Just hold the Otus in one hand, the iPhone in the other , blow Siri a kiss and she does the rest.

M

I think you're better at being serious than joking :)
Don't you agree that a hollowed out X1D would make a perfect ergonomic camera-trigger case for the iPhone?
I think that body is actually a sidepproduct of those wonderful handles which Hassy used to make.

https://petapixel.com/2013/08/04/a-review-of-the-hasselblad-stellar/

Edmund
« Last Edit: August 26, 2018, 06:02:42 pm by eronald »
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BJL

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #743 on: August 26, 2018, 06:22:17 pm »

... when the camera is actually released is that the internet fora again light up with negativity about some feature that is missing or some spec. This becomes THE DEALBREAKER ..
Indeed; one of my favorite ďZĒ comments at DPReview was
ďno hot shoe cover, no dealĒ
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32BT

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #744 on: August 26, 2018, 06:40:30 pm »

https://www.dpreview.com/opinion/9336220495/the-nikon-z-is-a-big-step-for-nikon-but-they-need-to-keep-being-brave

Pretty me echoes how I feel.

Cheers,
Bernard


Could you please elaborate? How exactly is this initial offering even remotely brave?


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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #745 on: August 26, 2018, 07:09:36 pm »

... negativity about some feature that is missing or some spec. This becomes THE DEALBREAKER for all those who were never really going to buy the camera in the first place...

Otherwise known as tire-kickers.

Manoli

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #746 on: August 26, 2018, 07:21:04 pm »

I think you're better at being serious than joking :)

I think you're right. :)
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chez

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #747 on: August 26, 2018, 07:23:13 pm »

Whenever there is huge buildup to the release of a major new camera, with the internet fora in a tizzy with anticipation, what inevitably happens when the camera is actually released is that the internet fora again light up with negativity about some feature that is missing or some spec. This becomes THE DEALBREAKER for all those who were never really going to buy the camera in the first place. They just couldnít bear the idea that there would be a new camera out there that made them feel inadequate about what they already owned. So, they need THE DEALBREAKER. In the case of the Z7, we now have it. ONE CARD SLOT.

Well it was Nikon's hype machine that got the frenzy going with terms like revolutionary camera...and then release nothing revolutionary at all.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #748 on: August 26, 2018, 07:57:30 pm »

Well it was Nikon's hype machine that got the frenzy going with terms like revolutionary camera...and then release nothing revolutionary at all.

It really depends on what the expectation is.

As far as I am concerned, my main expectation was better image quality in a compact form factor and a platform (a mount) that won't be limiting 5 years down the road. And it looks like we may be getting that. That what truly matters (to me at least).

For the rest it seems like a highly usable, perfectly sized, well implemented mirrorless camera with good AF, excellent video (possibly overall best in class among FF DSLRs based on initial reports),... in other words not much that should come in the way of achieving the image quality potential of the platform. As a photographer, that's what matters to me.

As a geek, I would have preferred a levitation-capable-glow-in-the dark-plugged-into-my-mind-no-need-to-press-the-shutter camera of course.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: August 26, 2018, 08:44:14 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #749 on: August 26, 2018, 08:05:37 pm »

Could you please elaborate? How exactly is this initial offering even remotely brave?

Yes, certainly:
- new mount after 60 years on the previous one - imagine the amount of accountability of the chief engineer who signed off on that design
- target directly the highest end of mirrorless (from a technology standpoint - let's put aside some features missing such as double card) - go back to the start of this thread and read the comments I got when I mentioned the possibility 4 months ago that Nikon may attempt that...
- simultaneous release of many new technological blocks (for Nikon that is, FF mirrorless AF, IBIS, 10 bits video, EVF,...)
- simultaneous release of 2 cameras
- sharing of a lens roadmap - from a Nikon company culture, this is unheard of - I know, sounds like a small thing, but if you have ever experienced the way companies evolve, the challenge it is to change these things - especially in Japan based on my 20 years experience working with Japanese companies
- definition of a new S line of lenses that they call "best in class", here again, this is a breakthrough for a company that has never marketed their product in the past

If you have any experience of product development and the corporate world, you'll understand why this is brave, and I have to praise DPreview for understanding this.

Cheers,
Bernard

eronald

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #750 on: August 26, 2018, 08:40:50 pm »

I like this thread - I'm thinking of this wonderful glut of used Nikon D850 bodies that's due to hit the used market.

Edmund
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #751 on: August 26, 2018, 08:53:28 pm »

I like this thread - I'm thinking of this wonderful glut of used Nikon D850 bodies that's due to hit the used market.

We'll see. I may end up keeping the Z7 and D5 and sell the D850. It will depend on how the Z7 performs in real world. ;)

I have a one week sailing trip coming up in November that should be a perfect chance to test the Z7 in a demanding environment for IBIS, battery life, weather sealing,... last year I used the D850 + 24-70 f2.8 VR + 70-200 f2.8. I would probably take the Z7 + 24-70 f4 S + 35mm f1.8 S + 70-200 f2.8 E FL this year. About the same size overall, but a brigher/higher quallity lens for low light shooting.



Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: August 26, 2018, 09:26:13 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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BJL

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system: evolution vs revolution
« Reply #752 on: August 26, 2018, 09:25:14 pm »

Well it was Nikon's hype machine that got the frenzy going with terms like revolutionary camera...and then release nothing revolutionary at all.
I agree that Nikon Z is a good and only slightly risky evolutionary step rather than anything revolutionary, but then again maybe I have a weird idea of what is and is not revolutionary. Amongst the more worthily revolutionary things that lie behind the Z system, and the companies who first bought them to cameras:
- digital SLRs (Kodak, and arguably Nikon for going beyond "Franken-cameras")
- sensor-based stabilization (Konica-Minolta)
- active pixel CMOS sensors (Canon)
- Live view (Olympus and partner Panasonic, initially in Four Thirds DSLRs)
- mirrorless system cameras (Panasonic and Olympus with Micro Four Thirds)
- an EVF in live view cameras (Panasonic)
- column-parallel ADC on CMOS sensors (Sony)
- on-sensor PDAF, mostly closing the gap with SLRs on AF performance (correction: Nikon, not Sony?)
- five axis IBIS, clearly establishing IBIS as superior to lens-based IS (Olympus)
and maybe
- abandoning essentially all backward compatibility for the sake of a new modernized lens mount and system (several times: Canon EOS, Olympus Four Thirds, Fujifilm X system, etc.)

What strikes me as most clearly mere evolution, not revolution, is doing something that has been done for some years by several camera makers, but in a different format. And yet some seem to think of Sony's moving mirrorless to 36x24mm as revolutionary, rather than its more legitimate innovation(s) listed above.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2018, 09:31:57 pm by BJL »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #753 on: August 26, 2018, 09:28:03 pm »

- on-sensor PDAF, mostly closing the gap with SLRs on AF performance (Sony, I think)

I believe that was Nikon with the 1 series, wasn't it (sept 2011)? Sensor was manufactured by Aptina if I recall correctly.

You could add:
- optical image stabilization (Nikon in a compact camera)
- SLR video - Canon 5D MkII (although the nikon D90 was in fact announced a few days before)
- Usable video AF - Canon with their dual pixel
- eye AF - Sony
- lens motor AF - Canon USM
- near perfect optics - Zeiss with the Otus

But yes, agreed, the a7 mostly packaged existing technologies in a compact form factor and then Sony did iterative improvements from then on. I personally think that this is still innovation from a product standpoint, but yes, indeed not a revolution from a technology standpoint.

Now, an evolutionary product may result in near revolutionary improvements for some categories of users.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: August 26, 2018, 09:41:01 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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dseelig

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #754 on: August 26, 2018, 11:59:29 pm »

Tony Northrup jsut trashed the af in the Z7 and it's frames per second slower without a battery grip n ot quite sony killer yet.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #755 on: August 27, 2018, 12:05:32 am »

Tony Northrup jsut trashed the af in the Z7 and it's frames per second slower without a battery grip n ot quite sony killer yet.

Yes, I saw that. I asked them whether they reviewed their findings with Nikon engineers on the AF/IBIS topic, but they have not answered till date.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: August 27, 2018, 01:00:20 am by BernardLanguillier »
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32BT

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #756 on: August 27, 2018, 02:39:25 am »

Yes, certainly:
- new mount after 60 years on the previous one - imagine the amount of accountability of the chief engineer who signed off on that design
We all understood it required a new mount. They have the experience to make a relevant mount, they get to draw on a blank slate. Nobody says it needs to remain relevant for another 60 years. That wasn't brave, and the final result was hopefully a team effort.

- target directly the highest end of mirrorless (from a technology standpoint - let's put aside some features missing such as double card) - go back to the start of this thread and read the comments I got when I mentioned the possibility 4 months ago that Nikon may attempt that...
Well, maybe you were brave mentioning it, but i think most people (not necessarily participating in this thread) were expecting 850 image quality in a slightly less capable package. And guess what we got? Some were (and some still seem to be) expecting a more capable package because, i don't know, mirrorlessmagicdust, but those people don't seem to realize the tour-the-force that the 850 really is.

- simultaneous release of many new technological blocks (for Nikon that is, FF mirrorless AF, IBIS, 10 bits video, EVF,...)
Yes, but very much proven technologies, again necessary directions like the lensmount. Nothing brave happened here.

- simultaneous release of 2 cameras
This strategy has been followed ever since the speed vs mpx conundrum. In fact the brave (but stupid) thing to do is trying to combine all disciplines in a single camera. It's clear that we now may even get a split into 3 specialties, if Sony is anything to go by.

- sharing of a lens roadmap - from a Nikon company culture, this is unheard of - I know, sounds like a small thing, but if you have ever experienced the way companies evolve, the challenge it is to change these things - especially in Japan based on my 20 years experience working with Japanese companies
- definition of a new S line of lenses that they call "best in class", here again, this is a breakthrough for a company that has never marketed their product in the past
So, if a Japanese company is finally coming to terms with the western ideal of marketing practices it is now called brave?

If you have any experience of product development and the corporate world, you'll understand why this is brave, and I have to praise DPreview for understanding this.
Dpr staff are databasegatekeepers, technophiles that are neither cameramanufacturer nor photographer. They might want to stick to having an opinion about what they actually understand as opposed to being as arrogant as telling an established, long time cameramanufacturer how they perceive their mirrorless strategy.

The only correct observation in that article was the opening up of the mount to third parties, that would be brave, but we already discussed this here and how it may actually be the case already, just under contract which allows Nikon to more-or-less control the quality of third party offerings.

In my opinion calling this effort brave is utter nonsense. They are distinctly "me too" offerings which is fine, but very, very safe indeed.

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davidgp

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #757 on: August 27, 2018, 02:48:55 am »

Yes, I saw that. I asked them whether they reviewed their findings with Nikon engineers on the AF/IBIS topic, but they have not answered till date.

Cheers,
Bernard

Although I like them... they make nice videos... I tend not to trust them in reviews. I always have the feeling they go to much in exaggeration of problems to get views... I suspect their problems are the same pointed out by DPReview... nothing more... nothing less...


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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #758 on: August 27, 2018, 03:07:44 am »

In my opinion calling this effort brave is utter nonsense. They are distinctly "me too" offerings which is fine, but very, very safe indeed.

What would have been a brave effort from Nikon according to you?

Cheers,
Bernard

Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Nikonís new mirrorless system, coming in ... late September 2018
« Reply #759 on: August 27, 2018, 03:12:16 am »

As I have said I think itís a very good start. Not sure about revolutionary. Weather proofing is my favorite feature over the Sony. I guess it will push Sony along a bit which is what I was hoping for.

I hope Canon do at least as good a job. I hope Canon put dual card slots into their camera. Not because itís a big deal for me but so we dont have to go over all that again.  :)
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