New H3D full frame!!!

[mcfoto]

Hasselblad did a really poor job of communicating what they're doing. When most photographers see "full frame" they get a big lump in their throat because they think "No, it can't be. Is it? Is it finally the full-frame sensor?" And Hasselblad should have know this.

But to be technically specific, yes, it is the "world's first 48mm full frame DSLR camera system".

Meaning, when you look through the viewfinder, you will see a 100% view of a 48mm frame (or 49mm, since they're using the Kodak chip - still haven't sorted that out  ). And the lenses that will be made specifically for this camera will be spec'd to fit a 48mm capture area.

This Thursday I will be looking at an H3D and getting a closer handle on it. Perhaps some more clarifications will emerge. If any do, I'll post em.

Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital

Hi
What do you mean by this? The Mamiya ZD that I own does not have crop marks in the view finder and it is a DSLR.
Thanks Denis

[pprdigital]

Hasselblad did a really poor job of communicating what they're doing. When most photographers see "full frame" they get a big lump in their throat because they think "No, it can't be. Is it? Is it finally the full-frame sensor?" And Hasselblad should have know this.

But to be technically specific, yes, it is the "world's first 48mm full frame DSLR camera system".

Meaning, when you look through the viewfinder, you will see a 100% view of a 48mm frame (or 49mm, since they're using the Kodak chip - still haven't sorted that out  ). And the lenses that will be made specifically for this camera will be spec'd to fit a 48mm capture area.

This Thursday I will be looking at an H3D and getting a closer handle on it. Perhaps some more clarifications will emerge. If any do, I'll post em.

Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital

Hi
What do you mean by this? The Mamiya ZD that I own does not have crop marks in the view finder and it is a DSLR.
Thanks Denis
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81570\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Denis:

The Mamiya ZD does indeed have a "full-frame" viewfinder. But there is not (currently) a Mamiya lens system made for the 48mmx36mm sensor. That's the difference. Actually, Hasselblad so far, only has one lens for the system - the 28mm,  but more are sure to follow. But you probably could make an argument that the ZD is the world's first, although until they announce plans or product releases that include lenses, it's not really as complete a system as an H3D. I'll leave that to Hasselblad and Mamiya to sort out.

I could also note that I can't say Mamiya has the world's first full-frame 48mm DSLR camera, because it's not available in the whole world yet, only select parts of it. We're Mamiya dealers, based in the United States and still await the arrival of the ZD.

Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
www.ppratlanta.com
Dealers for Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar

[bjnicholls]

I just read Michael's rant. DSLR simply means digital single lens reflex. The Hassy is certainly a DSLR. I think it's silly to suggest that there's some kind of vernacular use of DSLR that makes Hasselblad's terminology misleading. The target market for a Hassleblad can grasp such simple concepts, and cut through marketing hype too.

And I'm baffled by the suggestion that Hassleblad's introduction of a closed system camera is somehow illegal. Nobody makes such a suggestion in regard to Canon, Nikon, and every other smaller format DSLR that's built around a fixed sensor. The suggestion this is like limiting the user to one type of film is absurd (or is that a jab at the capabilities of all 35mm and APS-C non-modular cameras?) Hasselblad's dedicated back is at the very least more flexible in that it is modular. Yes, they obviously intend that you will have to buy any upgraded future back from Hassy. I can certainly understand that current and potential Hasselblad digital users would be very displeased by their move to a closed system. Stick with the real complaint.

It seems to me that the other back manufacturers should either have their own camera production alliances in the works if they wish to survive the decade.

[Steve Kerman]

******EDIT: Everybody seems to be taking this post wrong.  I'm just trying to answer bjnicholls' post immediately above.  I'm NOT saying that Hasselblad should be brought up on antitrust charges!  I personally think that the marketplace should be left alone to sort this out on its own.
******END OF EDIT

And I'm baffled by the suggestion that Hassleblad's introduction of a closed system camera is somehow illegal.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82570\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I don't know about the exact law being referenced here, but it is parallel to "tying contracts."  A tying contract is where a company requires you to buy product "B" in order to buy product "A", even though product "A" is separate from, and useful without product "B".  A classic example of a tying contract was heard by the USSC about 20-25 years ago in Fairchild Semiconductor v. Data General Corporation, or some similar title as that.

Data General manufactured a minicomputer known as the "Nova", for which they also sold operating system software.  The license agreement for the software required that it be used only on a computer sold by Data Genera.

Fairchild Semiconductor brought to market a single-chip microcomputer that executed the same instruction set as the Nova minicomputer.  Data General refused to sell operating system software to Fairchild's customers to run on Fairchild's microcomputer.

Litigation ensued.  The US Supreme Court ruled that Data General's restriction was an illegal "tying contract", and that they had to sell unbundled operating system software to Fairchild's customers on the same terms as they sell it to customers of their Nova minicomputers.

I'm not a lawyer, and don't know if facts of the Hasselblad sitution are similar enough to the facts of the DG case for it to apply.  Also, the law is of course different in different countries.  From comments here, it sounds like the E.U. also has antitrust laws that might or might not apply to this situation.

[GhostDancer]

Who cares, if Hassy wants to intoduce a closed system and you object, them don;t buy it.  I really can't figure some of you out, do you have nothing else to do then whine like old women?

[hubell]

Who cares, if Hassy wants to intoduce a closed system and you object, them don;t buy it.  I really can't figure some of you out, do you have nothing else to do then whine like old women?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82611\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This is the only the second, completely candid response to the Hasselblad H3D, closed system, the sky is falling phenomenon. The first was  the guy who said anyone who bought a Mamiya camera was a zit faced girley man who took wedding photographs for a living. (I assume he was kidding, but I do think he hit a raw nerve.)These guys really cut to the chase.

[Steve Kerman]

Who cares, if Hassy wants to intoduce a closed system and you object, them don;t buy it.  I really can't figure some of you out, do you have nothing else to do then whine like old women?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82611\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I thought that I was simply answering a question.   I didn't realize I was whining like an old woman.    

[godtfred]

I don't know about the exact law being referenced here, but it is parallel to "tying contracts."  A tying contract is where a company requires you to buy product "B" in order to buy product "A", even though product "A" is separate from, and useful without product "B".  A classic example of a tying contract was heard by the USSC about 20-25 years ago in Fairchild Semiconductor v. Data General Corporation, or some similar title as that.

Data General manufactured a minicomputer known as the "Nova", for which they also sold operating system software.  The license agreement for the software required that it be used only on a computer sold by Data Genera.

Fairchild Semiconductor brought to market a single-chip microcomputer that executed the same instruction set as the Nova minicomputer.  Data General refused to sell operating system software to Fairchild's customers to run on Fairchild's microcomputer.

Litigation ensued.  The US Supreme Court ruled that Data General's restriction was an illegal "tying contract", and that they had to sell unbundled operating system software to Fairchild's customers on the same terms as they sell it to customers of their Nova minicomputers.

I'm not a lawyer, and don't know if facts of the Hasselblad sitution are similar enough to the facts of the DG case for it to apply.  Also, the law is of course different in different countries.  From comments here, it sounds like the E.U. also has antitrust laws that might or might not apply to this situation.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82597\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Not to agree or disagree. But i feel the case with hasselblad is more of a patent situation, where camera makers have always been allowed to and had patents on their lensmounts, I think Hasselblad could and should be able and allowed to patent their rear H-mount for DB FB etc. Also Firmware to drive a specific attachable part (like a lens, rear mount etc.) is somewhat different in purpose from an operating system, where the firmware cannot hawe software installed on it (third party or otherwise) the operating system does just this, allow software (original or third party) to be installed and used.

Any thoughts on this? And does anyone know if Hasselblad has patents on parts of (or the whole) H-system?

-axel

[eronald]

Not to agree or disagree. But i feel the case with hasselblad is more of a patent situation, where camera makers have always been allowed to and had patents on their lensmounts, I think Hasselblad could and should be able and allowed to patent their rear H-mount for DB FB etc. Also Firmware to drive a specific attachable part (like a lens, rear mount etc.) is somewhat different in purpose from an operating system, where the firmware cannot hawe software installed on it (third party or otherwise) the operating system does just this, allow software (original or third party) to be installed and used.

Any thoughts on this? And does anyone know if Hasselblad has patents on parts of (or the whole) H-system?

-axel
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82632\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

This raises the whole issue of using patents on connecting hardware or enabling software to lock out the suppliers of compatible products ie allowing only Apple licensed peripherals on iPods. Or of allowing only Microsoft licensed software on Microsoft operating systems.

The strange thing is, anyone not a lawyer doesn't really understand the state of play here.

Edmund

[michael]

While I welcome a lively debate on this importsnt topic, personal attacks are not permitted here.

Everyone is requested to pause before hitting the send button, and ask themselves – would I still say this to the person if we were sitting across a table from each other?

Please keep the dialog civil.

Michael

[James Russell]

While I welcome a lively debate on this importsnt topic, personal attacks are not permitted here.

Everyone is requested to pause before hitting the send button, and ask themselves – would I still say this to the person[span style=\'font-size:14pt;line-height:100%\'] if we were sitting across a table from each other?[/span]

Please keep the dialog civil.

Michael
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

 Michael,

Unfortunately many people would say it if they were invisible.

That is the problem with aliases.

Given that I somewhat agree with Mr., Mrs, Ms., Miss, Dr?. Ghost Dancer,

Why does anyone care what hasselblad does and why is anyone suprised that they would try to devise a way to move people to their backs?

Maybe I don't care because I don't like or use their cameras but I still don't see the issue as there are other options.

Eveyrone complains about Contax prices going up, but they would have to triple from current levels to reach the price of a new H-1/2 system.

Still, Hasselblad is way behind in sales to Leaf and Phase and must do something to catch up.

Actually I'm surprised anyone that doesn't use an Imacon back moved to the H-1, unless they defanetly need a faster flash sync, which I find a non issue with digital backs as you can drop the iso down to 25 or 50.

I see this all the time, people sold their Contax systems thinking the H2 was better then mised the ranges of lenses, the Contax offered as well as the lens speed, plus the tens of thousands of dollars they spent to make the move.  Many now regret it.
 
Mr., Ms., Miss, Mrs., Dr.? Phaque Name compared the Mamiya 645 to a pimply faced kid nobody wants, but in most of my world I find that to be true.  I have yet to find someone that could stand the feel of the Mamiya 645 and the lenses, regardless if they are sharp or not.  Also the AFDII has a lot of reports of error messages (much like the hasselblad) when using digital backs.  I guess that is why Mamiya is now offering a firmware fix.

One of the camera dealers posted here that the reason Contax went of out business is because they didn't have a digital solution.  I disagree with that as I believe Contax lost interest because they didn't invest in their 645 system, by adding some leaf shutter lens and some other improvements to keep interest in the line.

Actually Contax did have the first full frame digital camera of any format with the D-1 , [a href=\"http://www.dpreview.com/news/0007/00071801contaxn1digital.asp]http://www.dpreview.com/news/0007/00071801...axn1digital.asp[/url] but it had some design issues and I guess that amount of R+D expense with low sales probably did a lot of damage.

Kind of reminds me of Hasselblad.


JR
http://www.russellrutherford.com/

[pprdigital]

One of the camera dealers posted here that the reason Contax went of out business is because they didn't have a digital solution.  I disagree with that as I believe Contax lost interest because they didn't invest in their 645 system, by adding some leaf shutter lens and some other improvements to keep interest in the line.

Actually Contax did have the first full frame digital camera of any format with the D-1 , http://www.dpreview.com/news/0007/00071801...axn1digital.asp but it had some design issues and I guess that amount of R+D expense with low sales probably did a lot of damage.

Kind of reminds me of Hasselblad.
JR
http://www.russellrutherford.com/
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82669\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Actually, Contax's unsuccessful attempt to go digital does not remind me of Hasselblad. It reminds me of Mamiya. The Contax digital attempt referenced above is indeed what put them out of business, rather than loss of interest, or any lack of improvements in the line. As you've effectively illustrated, the Contax 645 is an extremely robust product line. But in the medium format world, a robust film camera product line won't keep you in the black.

When a medium format camera company is not selling enough film cameras - natch - and tries to produce a digital camera, the cost is enormous in terms of R&D, etc. The fact it took nearly 3 years to get that camera to market, combined with the fact that it was a flop, killed Contax. Lots of R&D funds spent, very little revenue coming in from film camera sales, product gets delivered too late to be competitive, has design problems, flops, whoops, no revenue, goodbye company.

That sounds like Mamiya, not Hasselblad. Hasselblad did not take 3 years to get to market and one can debate whether they match Leaf or Phase, but their product has a much higher level of success than the Contax N Digital or the Mamiya ZD, and I believe the H3D will expand on that success. Mamiya is really the company I'm concerned about at this point.

Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
www.ppratlanta.com
Dealer for Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar

[James Russell]

and one can debate whether they match Leaf or Phase, but their product has a much higher level of success than the Contax N Digital or the Mamiya ZD, and I believe the H3D will expand on that
PPR Digital
www.ppratlanta.com
Dealer for Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82678\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well, the debate is decided by the marketplace and as of today Hasselblad digital back sales are at the best #3 though their Camera sales are probably #1 in medium format, so that says something.

Actually, other than I find the conversation interesting, I have zero vested interest in this, as I don't sell cameras or backs but knowing only what I read, Hasselblad, Mamiya and HY6 or whatever the company is now named would do themselves a world of good if they would produce a frequenly asked question page with real ansers.

1.  Will hasselblad continue to support 3rd party back with the H2 and continue H2 production?

2.  Will hasselblad lock out 3rd party backs from new lens offerings and if you buy a new 35mm blad lens next year will it work with an H2 and a 3rd party back?

3.  Does Mamiya still produce 645AFDII, and RZ67s and will they support them with continued digital interface's and upgrades.

4.  Who actually owns HY6, what is the complete new lens line, will 6008 lenses work on it, when will it be introduced and btw what is the suggested retail price?

All of these companies websites and thier respective dealers are high on flash value and very low on real information, hence everytime somebody introduces something new, my Contax cameras look better and better.

JR

P.S.  In fact Steve, do you have any real information that Mamiya is in trouble?  This sounds much like what Michael wrote about Hasselblad you took offense with, especially since he made a statement that he couldn't "really" divulge his sources.

That the problem with all digital, the rumors and it makes me wonder hwo anyone ever sells anything.  Today their are promises of Plus series this, S series that, new cameras, old cameras with new alliances, new cameras not produced, but made by one company, bought by another etc., etc.,

I finally came to the conclusion that none of the digital companies can make a camera that lives up to the initial hype.  Leaf software promises, wi-fi on both phase and leaf, better lcd's even Nikon execs keep floating a full frame hint, probably just to sell another zoom lens.

The only thing for a photographer to do is find something that works, find your own workarounds and stop worrying about what any of these companies do, because none of them will ever deliver what is on thier sales pdf and if all of them can change their direction in a hearbeat.

[zzzone]

Hi James

I have no information at all that Mamiya are in trouble.  The only worry is if they were  we would probably be the last to know!!

All of this is particularly interest to me right now, hence the AFD11 vs H2 thread running at the moment I started.  If Contax were still around I would probably have purchased that.  If Hasselblad were to continue to support third party backs I would buy that.  But they are not (?) so I am left with the Mamiya BUT will they be around.  I don't know.

All I can say in response to your comment is that at Photokina the guys on the Mamiya stand looked like they were a week or two later and should have been there for a different exhibition!  Their product knowledge was zero.  The focus on the AFD I looked at there was on Continuous.  I think they call it AI Servo on the Canon.  Not one of the four guys there knew how to change it!!  Other exhibitors at Photokina were commenting about this as well.  It could be poor training by Mamiya but it did make me wonder whether they are close to the end.  The ZD looks fantastic value but how long and where is it in the States??

I reiterate that I honestly have no knowledge and don't want to spread any rumour.  Read between the lines as you will.  My worry is after gazing in the crystal ball, I buy the Mamiya, they go out of business like Contax and Hasselblad continues to support the Phase back I have just ordered.  This business is difficult enough without this ----- to deal with!!!

All the very best

Steve Townsend

[eronald]

Yes, the Photokina presence of Mamiya was a joke. However, do I see Mamiya advertising, a bit, in the Japanese photo press about their new 28mm lens and the ZD. The ZD is selling decently over here in Europe, indeed I think it's outselling anything else in digital MF. Let's face it, the ZD now has the reputation of a reasonably priced product that actually works.

I don't know whether Mamiya is doing well, but they have two fully working bodies out there getting revenue through an established channel, new lens stock still seems to be selling, and the ZD can probably now be fairly easily upgraded to a new sensor thereby providing a predictable new product path. Within the Japanese environment where predictability counts and loans are cheap, I cannot see anyone pulling th plug on Mamiya right now if they are breaking even.

Edmund

[Steve Kerman]

Wow!  There's been a lot of traffic here since I posted about the Data General case.

I want to make it clear that the reason I posted that information was to give a little bit of an answer to bjnicholls' question about how Hasselblad's actions might be illegal.  I happen to be familiar with that case because I was involved with similar circumstances around the same time, so I related that case so bjnicholls could get some idea of the sort of things that might come up in Hasselblads' case.

I didn't and don't make any judgement as to whether the DG case would directly apply to Hasselblad's situation.  The facts are different, the law has likely changed since then, and it would take a lawyer deeply involved with antitrust law to sort all that out.

All that said, my personal moral judgement is that it would be wrong to force Hasselblad to continue to support their competitors against their will.  I think what they are doing to their customers does a terrible disservice to the customers, and I think they will suffer in the marketplace because of it.  But I think it would be an evil for a government to step in to force them to do things differently.

[pprdigital]

Well, the debate is decided by the marketplace and as of today Hasselblad digital back sales are at the best #3 though their Camera sales are probably #1 in medium format, so that says something.

Actually, other than I find the conversation interesting, I have zero vested interest in this, as I don't sell cameras or backs but knowing only what I read, Hasselblad, Mamiya and HY6 or whatever the company is now named would do themselves a world of good if they would produce a frequenly asked question page with real ansers.

1.  Will hasselblad continue to support 3rd party back with the H2 and continue H2 production?

2.  Will hasselblad lock out 3rd party backs from new lens offerings and if you buy a new 35mm blad lens next year will it work with an H2 and a 3rd party back?

3.  Does Mamiya still produce 645AFDII, and RZ67s and will they support them with continued digital interface's and upgrades.

4.  Who actually owns HY6, what is the complete new lens line, will 6008 lenses work on it, when will it be introduced and btw what is the suggested retail price?

All of these companies websites and thier respective dealers are high on flash value and very low on real information, hence everytime somebody introduces something new, my Contax cameras look better and better.

JR

P.S.  In fact Steve, do you have any real information that Mamiya is in trouble?  This sounds much like what Michael wrote about Hasselblad you took offense with, especially since he made a statement that he couldn't "really" divulge his sources.

That the problem with all digital, the rumors and it makes me wonder hwo anyone ever sells anything.  Today their are promises of Plus series this, S series that, new cameras, old cameras with new alliances, new cameras not produced, but made by one company, bought by another etc., etc.,

I finally came to the conclusion that none of the digital companies can make a camera that lives up to the initial hype.  Leaf software promises, wi-fi on both phase and leaf, better lcd's even Nikon execs keep floating a full frame hint, probably just to sell another zoom lens.

The only thing for a photographer to do is find something that works, find your own workarounds and stop worrying about what any of these companies do, because none of them will ever deliver what is on thier sales pdf and if all of them can change their direction in a hearbeat.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82681\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

The marketplace does indeed determine the debate, and Hasselblad (Imacon) has certainly been playing catch-up. They have their work cut out for them. But in the digital era, a product can very quickly have a sudden impact - either negatively or positively - with regard to market share. Leaf is a good example of a company that had not been dominant for some time until the Aptus. Nikon was on shaky ground until they pushed the D2X out there, now sales have turned around dramatically for them. Time will tell regarding acceptance of Hasselblad's digital product.

James, you're dead-on regarding communication from these companies. Communication is either beneficial or not. These companies have an opportunity to communicate effectively, and all fail miserably. Some communicate poorly, and others not at all. Either way, it harms them.

Regarding Mamiya, I do not have any information that they are in trouble. I was only making the point that the same business model and the same attempt to slavage their future has so far gone along very similar paths to Contax, and that worries me. I am not making any claim about Mamiya's financial condition - they could be rolling in money right now. As a Mamiya dealer, we anticipated a successful ZD product years ago, and the fact that they are still not available in the US market 3 years after an announcement is worrisome enough, regardless of their financial condition.

Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
www.ppratlanta.com
Dealer for Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar

[James Russell]

Hi James

I have no information at all that Mamiya are in trouble.  The only worry is if they were  we would probably be the last to know!!

All of this is particularly interest to me right now, hence the AFD11 vs H2 thread running at the moment I started.  If Contax were still around I would probably have purchased that.  If Hasselblad were to continue to support third party backs I would buy that.  But they are not (?) so I am left with the Mamiya BUT will they be around.  I don't know.

All I can say in response to your comment is that at Photokina the guys on the Mamiya stand looked like they were a week or two later and should have been there for a different exhibition!  Their product knowledge was zero.  The focus on the AFD I looked at there was on Continuous.  I think they call it AI Servo on the Canon.  Not one of the four guys there knew how to change it!!  Other exhibitors at Photokina were commenting about this as well.  It could be poor training by Mamiya but it did make me wonder whether they are close to the end.  The ZD looks fantastic value but how long and where is it in the States??

I reiterate that I honestly have no knowledge and don't want to spread any rumour.  Read between the lines as you will.  My worry is after gazing in the crystal ball, I buy the Mamiya, they go out of business like Contax and Hasselblad continues to support the Phase back I have just ordered.  This business is difficult enough without this ----- to deal with!!!

All the very best

Steve Townsend
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Steve Townsend,

Thanks for the information.

I was actually refering to Steve Hendrix because he got in a hissy fit when someone mentioned that Hasselblad was in trouble, so I found it rather ironic that he would bring up Mamiya has troubles without stating some facts.  Just the facts man.

Still, no photographer really gives a damn about any of this the way the dealers, seminar givers or camera makers care about this.  They make money off all this talk and that's what 95% of it is . .  talk and rumors.

Hell in LA some people still shoot features with old Arri's and Maxwells and nobody is worried about it and no one sits down in a movie theatre and says, "I think that scene was shot with an old BL".

Photography is about art not cameras and this stuff is all about selling us more stuff only to sell us some more stuff.

I get as lured in as the rest, but if Hasselblad, Mamiya and HY whatever left tomorrow there would be something I could earn a living with, probably these Contax cameras.

Edmund,

The Mamiya may be a real camera that works but by all accounts doesn't work that well and I've yet to hear anyone in the U.S. that uses one.

I saw one in Japan a few weeks ago the the retailer knew nothing about it, other than the price.

JR
[a href=\"http://www.russellrutherford.com/]http://www.russellrutherford.com/[/url]

[pprdigital]

Steve Townsend,

Thanks for the information.

I was actually refering to Steve Hendrix because he got in a hissy fit when someone mentioned that Hasselblad was in trouble, so I found it rather ironic that he would bring up Mamiya has troubles without stating some facts.  Just the facts man.

Still, no photographer really gives a damn about any of this the way the dealers, seminar givers or camera makers care about this.  They make money off all this talk and that's what 95% of it is . .  talk and rumors.

Hell in LA some people still shoot features with old Arri's and Maxwells and nobody is worried about it and no one sits down in a movie theatre and says, "I think that scene was shot with an old BL".

Photography is about art not cameras and this stuff is all about selling us more stuff only to sell us some more stuff.

I get as lured in as the rest, but if Hasselblad, Mamiya and HY whatever left tomorrow there would be something I could earn a living with, probably these Contax cameras.

Edmund,

The Mamiya may be a real camera that works but by all accounts doesn't work that well and I've yet to hear anyone in the U.S. that uses one.

I saw one in Japan a few weeks ago the the retailer knew nothing about it, other than the price.

JR
http://www.russellrutherford.com/
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82704\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

James - FYI - the facts are all I've stated.

Regarding Mamiya, I do not have any information that they are in trouble. I was only making the point that the same business model and the same attempt to slavage their future has so far gone along very similar paths to Contax, and that worries me. I am not making any claim about Mamiya's financial condition - they could be rolling in money right now. As a Mamiya dealer, we anticipated a successful ZD product years ago, and the fact that they are still not available in the US market 3 years after an announcement is worrisome enough, regardless of their financial condition.

Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
www.ppratlanta.com
Dealer for Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar

[eronald]

I get as lured in as the rest, but if Hasselblad, Mamiya and HY whatever left tomorrow there would be something I could earn a living with, probably these Contax cameras.

Edmund,

The Mamiya may be a real camera that works but by all accounts doesn't work that well and I've yet to hear anyone in the U.S. that uses one.

I saw one in Japan a few weeks ago the the retailer knew nothing about it, other than the price.

JR
http://www.russellrutherford.com/
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82704\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

James,
 Even if all they were making were Brownie Box cameras, I'm sure you'd still be making a living with them - was it you or Melvin who told the story of those Polaroid Swinger prints ?

 My take on this is that there are TWO currently made cameras which I both find cruddy, and there is a third (Contax) which is well-recommended but doesn't make much commercial sense over here. Strangely, brand M lenses and bodies are available everywhere used cheap or rental, brand H are horribly expensive.

Compare this to the 35 mm arena where Canon basically keep their promises and I am amazed that professionals put up with this nonsense -

 As for the ZD, why don't you borrow one and shoot it ? I'd be curious as to what you think.

Edmund