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pprdigital

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« Reply #180 on: October 20, 2006, 04:56:33 pm »

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An earlier earlier (!) contribution of mine refered to the profitability of some of the MF companies.  I was amazed that Hasselblad are losing so much money as stated above.  Can anyone let me know how well the likes of Phase, Leaf, Mamiya etc etc are doing, not specifically just broad brush very well, ok, nigh on bankrupt etc etc.  That would be interesting.

Regards Steve
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81413\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Steve:

Your post illuminates the irresponsibility of Michael's comment. Hasselblad is not losing money. They are profitable. This is a straight up fact. They're a public company, you can go look it up. Why don't you ask Michael to share the history of other medium format companies like Leaf or Phase One? See how accurate that is.

Stating that Hasselblad has "huge debt", especially coming from someone in a position of influence like Michael, really raises a question about his agenda.

But - back to your dilemma. I expect H2 cameras to be produced for quite some time. The comment "As long as there is demand" could be attributed to any companie's product. H3D's will continue to be produced "as long as there is demand".

In fact, 14 months ago, I was told by Christian Poulson that V-Series Hasselblad's would continue to be produced "as long as there was demand". They are still being produced today.

The idea of a conspiracy to put competitors out of business by stopping production on the H2 doesn't hold water. You have to remember, Hasselblad also makes digital backs in single (CF-22/CF-39) and multi-shot (CF-22MS/CF-39MS) capture. These backs cannot go on an H3D, just as Phase Leaf or Sinar can't. Hasselblad's very own digital backs will not go on H3D. What would Hasselblad put these on if H2's stopped production?

Incidentally, I am a dealer, and I am not "deeply concerned" as Michael states.

Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
www.ppratlanta.com
Dealer for Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar
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pss

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« Reply #181 on: October 20, 2006, 05:14:57 pm »

i have a hard time believing that hasselblad is loosing money with their camera division. they must have sold more H1/2s since their introduction then anticipated....they released it pretty much at the same time everybody else disappeared....every rental house in the US bought complete kits...every photographer looking into that direction got one...almost no competition....when hasselblad decided to make the H1, i don't think they could have anticipated its success...so it must have made them money...their backs are a different story, but they must be able to keep their costs down with the backs, since the backs are always about one generation/year behind phase/leaf...the H3D/Cf39 is a P45/A75...which are being phased out by their companies...does not mean that these backs are not good (just like a P25 is still more then anyone really needs)...but if you get into the game, you know that your back will be upgraded within a year, so you want to have the latest technology...

anyway, after reading these forums one must wonder why contax ever went out of business...i never heard of anyone owning a contax when they were still alive..now that they are dead, people complain how much they have to pay for a finder on ebay!
personally i don't like the H1/2, but most people do and there is no reason to not buy a H1/2 now and use a phase or leaf back with it. service won't be a problem. if one is happy with the current lens-line up, no problem! maybe now is the time to buy a H1/2..people are jumping ship...

captureintegration just sent me an email with a list of demo backs (aptus, leaf and imacon), most of them for H1 mount..unbelievable prices...with the 3year warranty...made me consider a H1/2 for a second (a brief second)...nothing wrong with a system like that...should pay for itself within 3 years after which you still have a working, serviceable system...what more does anyone want...
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pprdigital

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« Reply #182 on: October 20, 2006, 05:37:35 pm »

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i have a hard time believing that hasselblad is loosing money with their camera division. they must have sold more H1/2s since their introduction then anticipated....they released it pretty much at the same time everybody else disappeared....every rental house in the US bought complete kits...every photographer looking into that direction got one...almost no competition....when hasselblad decided to make the H1, i don't think they could have anticipated its success...so it must have made them money...their backs are a different story, but they must be able to keep their costs down with the backs, since the backs are always about one generation/year behind phase/leaf...the H3D/Cf39 is a P45/A75...which are being phased out by their companies...does not mean that these backs are not good (just like a P25 is still more then anyone really needs)...but if you get into the game, you know that your back will be upgraded within a year, so you want to have the latest technology...

anyway, after reading these forums one must wonder why contax ever went out of business...i never heard of anyone owning a contax when they were still alive..now that they are dead, people complain how much they have to pay for a finder on ebay!
personally i don't like the H1/2, but most people do and there is no reason to not buy a H1/2 now and use a phase or leaf back with it. service won't be a problem. if one is happy with the current lens-line up, no problem! maybe now is the time to buy a H1/2..people are jumping ship...

captureintegration just sent me an email with a list of demo backs (aptus, leaf and imacon), most of them for H1 mount..unbelievable prices...with the 3year warranty...made me consider a H1/2 for a second (a brief second)...nothing wrong with a system like that...should pay for itself within 3 years after which you still have a working, serviceable system...what more does anyone want...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81418\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Paul:

P45's and A75's are not being phased out. In fact they are in the process of being modified to shoot faster, etc. because new chips are at least a year out, if not longer. And there's a fee for that, but it's the same chip. And the H3D uses the same chip as the H2D-39, which was introduced late last year.

I don't know if Hasselblad will be introducing any "Plus" or "S" models, which enhanced speed, buffering, etc. with the Phase and Leaf product. With the integration of the H3D, optimization may not always require paying for a new back or upgrade. The latest firmware download eliminated any buffering on the H2D/H3D whether shooting tethered or un-tethered (at least up to a minute - that's as long as we tested).

Steve

Steve Hendrix
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www.ppratlanta.com
Dealer for Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar
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josayeruk

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« Reply #183 on: October 20, 2006, 06:30:23 pm »

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"There is a lot of speculation there without any hard fact on your part."

Regretably I am not in a position to be able to share publicly certain information. But, knowing what I do, I am confident of my statements, otherwise I wouldn't make them here.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81404\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Well thats not good enough really.  You can't say something as fact when it involves Hasselblad.. when it appears you have no direct contact with them?

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And I'm not alone. Their entire dealer network is deeply concerned about it as well. Speak to a few dealership owner/managers to see what I mean.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81404\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Come on old Fruit!  Can you really say that you spoke to every dealer from London to Bombay and interviewed them on the merits or otherwise of the H3D and strategy?

Or do you class 'entire' as the USA only?  Well us peeps in the ROW might be a little peeved about that.    

Well on your exhaustive interview process you must have missed out my dealer as he seems more than happy.  He also used to sell Phase One.  So perhaps if I pass on his telephone number you could post up the dialogue of your conversation for us all to take a look at?

Plus the fellow Steve Hendrix who has been commenting doesn't seem overly worried.  A few initial concerns maybe until he gets to talk to his rep but I don't see him being overly generous to either of the brands he sells... Just impartial as any good dealer should be.

Jo x.
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SeanBK

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« Reply #184 on: October 20, 2006, 08:05:53 pm »

I have been silently listening to all this misdirected rumours, inuendo & ..... There is old adage "Offense is best defense". I attended Phase One Roadshow this year and Michael is shown thru' Video as a very prominant spokesperson tooting virtues of Phase One & he is entitled to his opinion. In past Michael has posted often that he tried very hard to get the backs & cameras from Hasselblad to run side by side tests and they just did not supply him with newer models. May be Hasselblad don't consider him as totally unbiased!!!....
   Unless Phase One is very succesful with Mamiya and can knock Hasselblad off the perch, I as a consumer would be more worried @ Phase One's financial long term & not Hasselblad's.
   Remember the back is only as good as the photographer. We all know there are a LOT of Hasselblad users, they have their Forums and are quitely minding their own business & making a hell of a profit too. The 800# gorrilla has been in this forum & we all are very aware that all this commotion of "Hassey, You done me wrong song" is only precursor to what phase one has to do with the cards THEY are holding, as Hassey's cards are already on table, time will tell, whether Phase One can survive. I like Hasselblad, Phase One, Leaf... they are just the wheels on my car, but it is the driving ability that makes the race worthwhile & not the negetive P.R. All the political commercials we are getting (south of the border, the biggest consumer of M.F), which talk only about bad things of their opponent and not what they are planning to offer. So Michael, as YOU are the insider to Phase One, & YOU will AGAIN be going on your Antarctica trip with your PhaseOne buddies, instead of telling us how bad Hasselblad is, why not tell us what Phase One is going to offer to us, the true paying customer. Enuf of negetive, I just want to shoot better pictures than I shot yesterday. Sorry for the long rant, but it is still shorter than this rant of the topic.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2006, 10:36:47 pm by SeanBK »
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Photomangreg

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« Reply #185 on: October 20, 2006, 09:01:21 pm »

This came in my email today, maybe it IS time to take a look myself???  I'm sure there are other events going on accross the country and around the world, let's take the time to see for ourselves and talk to the hasselblad reps in person.

Come and See What Everyone Is Talking About!

Hasselblad will be launching the new H3D digital camera system at several locations in the New York City area.  Take one of these opportunities to learn about this revolutionary new product.  In addtion to the launch events at our dealer locations, Hasselblad will host a demonstration center during the PhotoPlus Expo on Friday November 3rd from 10:00am -3:00pm. This demo center will be setup at Splashlight Studios

Dealer Launch Event schedule:

FotoCare  
Oct. 23rd - 10am-4:00pm
136 W. 21st Street
New York NY 10011  
phone: 212-741-2990

Professional Graphics
Oct. 24th - 10am-4:00pm
1333 Broadway, Suite 1112
New York, NY 10018
phone: 212-244-3538

Photo Village
Oct. 25th - 12:00pm-6:00pm
1133 Broadway, Suite 824
New York, NY  10010
phone: 212-989-1252

Kurland Photo
Oct. 26th - 11:00am-5:00pm
670 Broadway, Suite 501  
New York, NY 10012
phone: 212-475-7799

Professional Graphics
Oct. 30th - 10am-4:00pm
3 West Main Street    
Elmsford, NY 10523    
phone: 800-344-0855

Hasselblad PhotoPlus Demonstration Center
Friday, November 3rd -10:00am-3:00pm
Splashlight Studios
529-535 West 35th Street
New York, NY 10001

To learn more about the H3D click on the link below.
H3D Product Info <http://newsmailservice.com/s.asp?0832361045221440400889161>

We look forward to seeing you at one of these exciting product launch events.


Best Regards,


Hasselblad USA
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #186 on: October 21, 2006, 01:27:47 am »

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So where does that leave me?  Commercially I cannot wait for the Hy6.  Unless that is it will take an H or Mamiya mount back when it eventually comes on the market?

The Hy6 will have a totally new mount with a digital interface.
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Morgan_Moore

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« Reply #187 on: October 21, 2006, 02:12:09 am »

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The Hy6 will have a totally new mount with a digital interface.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81465\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Sinar/Eyelike backs have a change able interface for £600 they will work now with Mam/Contax/H1/HV and in the future another adapter plate will become available for the Hy
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zzzone

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« Reply #188 on: October 21, 2006, 03:48:39 am »

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The Hy6 will have a totally new mount with a digital interface.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81465\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Thanks Graham for your reply.

Gosh, another new interface complicates matter even more.  So am I right in saying that the Hy6 will not be able use any Phase or Leaf back produced today or in the past?  (Unless the back is very new and Phase for example, will swop it within the first year).

Steve
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Morgan_Moore

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« Reply #189 on: October 21, 2006, 04:07:05 am »

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another new interface complicates matter even more.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81476\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I am not sure of the exact situation this is what I think

Phase and leaf backs are re-engineerable at the factory for some 1000s of $ and months of downtime

Sinar/Eyelike backs have adapter plates for all current systems ($1000 + three screws) a sinar plate will become available for the HY6 in time

-------------

This is the same situation as now for a phase/leaf owner how wants to change from H1 to Mamiys etc

For me this has always been the winning USP for sinar/eyelike backs

I always had my eye on puchasing the first camera to have decent multipoint AF so didnt want to tie myself into hassy because I didnt know who it would be - lucky for me

Incidentally Sinar Eye like uses a 'foil stack' that allows one to 'tune' the focus plane of your back to the mirror plane of the individaul body (once per foil stack - a dealer operation)
« Last Edit: October 21, 2006, 04:08:16 am by Morgan_Moore »
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khwanaon

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« Reply #190 on: October 21, 2006, 04:28:27 am »

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I am not sure of the exact situation this is what I think

Phase and leaf backs are re-engineerable at the factory for some 1000s of $ and months of downtime

Sinar/Eyelike backs have adapter plates for all current systems ($1000 + three screws) a sinar plate will become available for the HY6 in time

-------------

This is the same situation as now for a phase/leaf owner how wants to change from H1 to Mamiys etc

For me this has always been the winning USP for sinar/eyelike backs

I always had my eye on puchasing the first camera to have decent multipoint AF so didnt want to tie myself into hassy because I didnt know who it would be - lucky for me

Incidentally Sinar Eye like uses a 'foil stack' that allows one to 'tune' the focus plane of your back to the mirror plane of the individaul body (once per foil stack - a dealer operation)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81477\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

FIY: Sinar DOES NOT plan to close their system to other backs. This was informed officially at Photokina. Unlike Hasselblad, it will be possible to mount/use other backs on the Hy6. Does make the system very more attractive than the Hassel.

Aon
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« Reply #191 on: October 21, 2006, 05:43:32 am »

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   Remember the back is only as good as the photographer. We all know there are a LOT of Hasselblad users, they have their Forums and are quitely minding their own business & making a hell of a profit too. The 800# gorrilla has been in this forum & we all are very aware that all this commotion of "Hassey, You done me wrong song" is only precursor to what phase one has to do with the cards THEY are holding, as Hassey's cards are already on table, time will tell, whether Phase One can survive. I like Hasselblad, Phase One, Leaf... they are just the wheels on my car, but it is the driving ability that makes the race worthwhile & not the negetive P.R. All the political commercials we are getting (south of the border, the biggest consumer of M.F), which talk only about bad things of their opponent and not what they are planning to offer. So Michael, as YOU are the insider to Phase One, & YOU will AGAIN be going on your Antarctica trip with your PhaseOne buddies, instead of telling us how bad Hasselblad is, why not tell us what Phase One is going to offer to us, the true paying customer.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81445\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


Wow Sean thats a great summary!

I can not understand Michaels rantings and if I were him I would be cautious of publicly claiming that a compay like Hasselblad are in huge debt!!! I dont know what laws exist in your country but here I would be seriously considering my comments before posting. Will he enlighten us as to phase one or leafs current financial situation?

This is indeed a heavily weighted thread and as was pointed out there are many Hasselblad users either remaining silent or happily continuing their cyber life on other forums.

My 132 back like other current hasselblad backs will fit on many platforms and I would not be worried until they pull the plug on stand alone backs.

Take a chill pill Mike
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eronald

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« Reply #192 on: October 21, 2006, 06:00:05 am »

Ok, let's stop talking about tomorrow's H back - how good is today's H back compared to the competiiton ?

Edmund
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #193 on: October 21, 2006, 08:28:02 am »

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Gosh, another new interface complicates matter even more.  So am I right in saying that the Hy6 will not be able use any Phase or Leaf back produced today or in the past?  (Unless the back is very new and Phase for example, will swop it within the first year).

Yes, Leaf and Phase One backs will have to be swapped for the right mount, but as I understand it Phase One is very interested in this platform so I hope that means they will make it easy for existing users.

As has already been stated, Sinar, Jenoptik and even Imacon backs have adaptable mounts. Will be interesting to see whether Imacon provides Hy6 mount adapters!
« Last Edit: October 21, 2006, 08:57:10 am by foto-z »
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michael

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« Reply #194 on: October 21, 2006, 08:50:39 am »

I'll say this once, and then will have nothing further to add.

My comments about Hasselblad's financial situation are based on clear and unequivocal statements made by the company's CEO. I have discussed this in private correspondance with Steve, because he was the first to query it, but I will not say anything further publicly. The facts of the matter remain, and I stand by them.

As for my comment about dealers being upset, and did I speak to dealer from Bombay to wherever – actually yes, I did. In the four days that I was at Photokina I had the opportunity to speak with more than a few Hasselblad dealers from the USA, Canada, Europe and Australia. Every one that I spoke with worried about the wisdom of Hasselblad's new strategic plan. Does this mean that every dealer in the world has this concern? No, of course not. I'm sure that some will think it a great idea, just like Hasselblad management does. But I feel confident that when I say that many dealers are concerned, this is a fair representation of the mood of a great many dealers in October, 2006.

As for my "friends" at Phase One. Get over it! Anyone who knows my writing knows that I have a personal friendship with that company's US VP Sales. This has little to nothing to do with his role at Phase One. Yes, I own a Phase One back. I have to own one brand or another, right? The reason that I do has more to do with the excellent decade-long relationship that I have with Vistek, my local dealer in Toronto, than with Kevin or the company itself. In fact I only met Kevin after I purchased my first Phase back. So, if I have any bias, it's toward a strong local dealer, a must have when you're buying $50,000 worth of medium format gear.

I also have a good relationship with the European Sales Manager for Leaf and various people at Kodak and Dalsa. I have been out shooting with them more than once, and have actually written more in the past year about the Aptus 75 than about the P45. Does that make me biased toward Leaf? I've also written that if I didn't already own a P45 I'd be more than pleased to own an Aptus 75. Bias. Yes. I'm biased toward good equipment regardless of the brand name.

As for any bias I may have against Hasselblad – nonsense. I own an H1, an H2 and four HC lenses. I use them continiously and find the camera to be the most precise and enjoyable to use of any medium format camera that I've ever owned. Just look at the Home Page photograph today, and over the past months. I've also stated here, and elsewhere on this site, that I have nothing but praise for Hasselblad's handling of the problem I had when one of my HC lenses malfunctioned while I was in Africa earlier this year. They responded quickly and professionally, and I've said so several time publicly.

No. My problem is not with Hasselblad the product, or Hasselblad the company. My concerns are regarding the strategic business direction that the company's management has recently announced. I think that it is wrong headed, and ultimately not in the best interest of either past or future customers, of which I am one. If nothing else my ownership of the product and high regard for its qualities gives me the right to express my concerns.

Michael
« Last Edit: October 21, 2006, 08:54:41 am by michael »
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eronald

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« Reply #195 on: October 21, 2006, 08:59:59 am »

Quote
I'll say this once, and then will have nothing further to add.

My comments about Hasselblad's financial situation are based on clear and unequivocal statements made by the company's CEO.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81494\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Correct. I was there and heard those statements. I think Michael has probably got them in video. As I remember it, Hasselblad/Imacon had serious financial problems, they are now in a strong uptrend with good sales, but are still left with some debt. Hasselblad have been very open about their financials.

Edmund
« Last Edit: October 21, 2006, 09:01:24 am by eronald »
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pprdigital

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« Reply #196 on: October 21, 2006, 09:40:08 am »

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Correct. I was there and heard those statements. I think Michael has probably got them in video. As I remember it, Hasselblad/Imacon had serious financial problems, they are now in a strong uptrend with good sales, but are still left with some debt. Hasselblad have been very open about their financials.

Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81498\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

My problem with the statement was that debt only paints one side of a picture. The fact is despite the debt of Hasselblad, they are indeed a profitable company. And to portray that Hasselblad is choosing what Michael sees as a losing business strategy because of concern over the debt only leads to more distortion.

Leaf, Phase One, Hasselblad and Sinar. All these companies strive to make the best product they can to improve their financial situation. There is plenty of negative information about the financials of these companies that could be spilled on this page. Hasselblad is doing nothing different than any of these companies would do to enhance profitability. Michael doesn't agree that their choice of strategy is wisest. But that has nothing to do with their debt position.

And throwing that out there, only leads to inaccurate conclusions like the one drawn by Steve (zzzone). No offence meant, Steve.

"I was amazed that Hasselblad was losing so much money as stated above."


Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
www.ppratlanta.com
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James Russell

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« Reply #197 on: October 21, 2006, 10:35:52 am »

These camera discussions can get so passionate.

I've seen it and become involved with it on other boards and  honestly it makes no sense to me, unless you have a reason.

Obviously Steve sells Imacon/Hasselblad and wants the story to be as correct as possible .  As far as Michael's ties with Phase, only he can answer if that leads to bias or not.

It's funny I own two Aptus'' or is it Apti and through the early days of working through some of the issues, I have become friends with some of the people at Leaf.  

If you asked me which is the best back I would say Leaf, if you asked me if I was unbiased towards Leaf I would say defiantly not.  

That's just the way humans are built, we always have bias towards the people we know and trust and we develop a bond with the tools we use, especially when our end product is also a passionate endeavor.

In regards to medium format cameras, there has never been a perfect one, in fact 35mm consumer cameras have always had more features and were easier to use than any medium format camera, at any price.

Personally, I think you decide on cameras and backs with separate thoughts.

The camera is as much what it allows me to do as much as what it won't allow me to do.  I went with a Contax because it allows me a lot of lens choices and the lens are generally a stop faster than most leaf shutter lenses.

I then select a back as I would a film and in most cases a  film and a lab combined.  The Leaf just gave me more lab options and it turns out currently my lab of choice is Adobe's Raw Converter.

It's not that my decision was the only right decision, it just was the only right decision for me.

With this in mind it doesn't really matter to me what Hasselblad, Rollei or Mamiya does.  Medium format cameras, even out of date ones last a long time.
Contax has been gone for what . . . 2 years and if needed I can rent lenses and bodies in almost any market in the world, large and small, with no worry about what firmware the camera has installed.

Today I can buy anything (except the elusive waist level finder) for the Contax with the click of a credit card and have it tomorrow.

I assume that regardless of what Hasselblad does in the future H1/2's will also be on the market for years to come and work just as well in 5 years as they do now.

Even if tomorrow Leaf, Phase and Sinar stopped making backs for my Contax or an H-1 it won't stop me or anyone from shooting anything and I would imagine if that happened, all of the mfdb companies would make changing mounts a fairly fast and cost effective upgrade.

I think the most interesting part of this conversation is the overall direction.

One or two years ago this would be about Canon's vs. all medium format and now it's about mf backs and cameras.  It shows me the professional market is growing  and many people that  got their digital feet wet with dslrs and are now shooting mature work with digital backs.

That is probably why we are told that digital back sales are on the increase.

If there is a market for an H3, a new HY6 maybe someone else will also step up and compete.

That's good for all of us.

JR
http://russellrutherford.com/
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Photomangreg

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New H3D full frame!!!
« Reply #198 on: October 21, 2006, 03:58:36 pm »

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Ok, let's stop talking about tomorrow's H back - how good is today's H back compared to the competiiton ?

Edmund
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Why don't you go see one for yourself?
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digitalguy

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New H3D full frame!!!
« Reply #199 on: October 21, 2006, 06:11:13 pm »

My Phase Dealer has told me that with the purchase a value added version of their backs you have one year to switch platforms at no charge.
They should really get that out there, because with the current developments in the MF camera arena it gives the photographer peace of mind.
Dg


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I am not sure of the exact situation this is what I think

Phase and leaf backs are re-engineerable at the factory for some 1000s of $ and months of downtime

Sinar/Eyelike backs have adapter plates for all current systems ($1000 + three screws) a sinar plate will become available for the HY6 in time

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This is the same situation as now for a phase/leaf owner how wants to change from H1 to Mamiys etc

For me this has always been the winning USP for sinar/eyelike backs

I always had my eye on puchasing the first camera to have decent multipoint AF so didnt want to tie myself into hassy because I didnt know who it would be - lucky for me

Incidentally Sinar Eye like uses a 'foil stack' that allows one to 'tune' the focus plane of your back to the mirror plane of the individaul body (once per foil stack - a dealer operation)
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