Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: wilburdl on September 29, 2006, 10:54:57 pm
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It's finally here. Full frame medium format. The H3D was announced at Photokina, and well, I want one. But at $32,000, I think I'll wait....
Hasselblad Launches World's First 48mm Full-Frame DSLR Camera System
Hasselblad is today firmly positioning itself as the pre-eminent provider of high-end digital cameras with >>the launch of the Hasselblad H3D, the world's first 48mm full-frame DSLR camera system. The H3D is the result of Hasselblad's strategy of taking photographic flexibility and image quality to new levels, as yet unseen in any competing product. When compared with high-end 35mm DSLRs, the H3D delivers unmatched pixel resolution, better colors and detail rendering and a new choice of viewfinders for creative image composition. In comparison with digital backs, the H3D delivers image quality with a higher level of detail and true sharpness thanks to Hasselblad's Digital APO Correction (DAC) and the advances of its new Ultra-Focus functionality. The H3D's full-frame concept offers unique control of image composition and with its new 28mm lens, the H3D allows photographers for the first time ever to take wide angle shots on a 36 x 48mm sensor.
U.S. MSRP Pricing is as follows:
H3D-22: $26,995
H3D-39: $31,995
Link: http://www.hasselblad.com/promotion/h3d.aspx (http://www.hasselblad.com/promotion/h3d.aspx)
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It's finally here. Full frame medium format. The H3D was announced at Photokina, and well, I want one. But at $32,000, I think I'll wait....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78350\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
As was discussed elsewhere, very little is new.
A H2D is just as - or just not as - full frame as the H3D with the same lens.
The same applies to any MF body with a P25, P45, A22 or A75 mounted on a H1 and H2.
The Hassy announcement is mostly a marketing move. Michael's latest article clarifies the situation further in this regard.
Cheers,
Bernard
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It's finally here. Full frame medium format. The H3D was announced at Photokina, and well, I want one. But at $32,000, I think I'll wait....
This is a joke right?
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no better time for the sinar/rollei/leaf alliance to enter the stage with a nice camera system - if they get the price right!
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no better time for the sinar/rollei/leaf alliance to enter the stage with a nice camera system - if they get the price right!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78375\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Yep, it looks like it might be the right time to get rid of my Hassy H gear... but I don't see Sinar producing anything cheap.
As we speak, Mamiya definitely appears now to be the only remaining reasonnable option in MF. Or an Ebony 23...
Cheers,
Bernard
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Yep, it looks like it might be the right time to get rid of my Hassy H gear... but I don't see Sinar producing anything cheap.
As we speak, Mamiya definitely appears now to be the only remaining reasonnable option in MF. Or an Ebony 23...
Cheers,
Bernard
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=78377\")
Bernard, on this topic please see my reply to you in this other thread
[a href=\"http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=12400]http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=12400[/url]
Edmund
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The H3D isn't full frame if it's 48mm. They have redefined what full frame is to fit the sensor size, it seems.
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See my new essay (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/photokina/H3-concerns.shtml) on this topic for my perspective on this nonsense.
Michael
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The H3D isn't full frame if it's 48mm. They have redefined what full frame is to fit the sensor size, it seems.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78385\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No, we (the photographic comunity) have redefined "full-frame" into meaning "full coverage" or 1.0x crop factor today. A full-frame CCD was originally reffering to the CCD architechture and the way the data was read out of the chip. Most CCD's used for high-end photographic purposes use a full frame architechure today and that has nothing to do with the physical size of the CCD's. So HB is beeing clever and really are right in claiming a full-frame camera as it uses a full-frame CCD.
I also suspect they could be reffering to the reduced diameter 28mm lens which has a coverage made for the 48x36mm format and hence is a "full-frame" as in full-coverage or 1.0x crop. That would be like Nikon claiming their dSLR's to be full frame with the DX lenses.
MHO.
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I also suspect they could be reffering to the reduced diameter 28mm lens
And I guess to the new higher magnification HVD90x viewfinder
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See my new essay (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/photokina/H3-concerns.shtml) on this topic for my perspective on this nonsense.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78404\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well argued essay. Bad timing also for Hasselblad with the new more open architecture systems becoming available. The 28mm lens issue is frankly incredible, if true.
Quentin
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If H3 is rated as full frame, what will happen in 20 months time when Dalsa and Kodak bring out real full frame? In Michael's interview with ceo Phase One I think the line was "It's going to be 20 months before a bigger chip is available so we developed the P+ backs while we wait" or similar.
Damien.
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See my new essay (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/photokina/H3-concerns.shtml) on this topic for my perspective on this nonsense.
Thanks, Michael. You voiced my own sentiments perfectly. Even if the H system hadn't been closed, the Hy6 seems much more interesting. I can only sympathise with existing Hasselblad owners.
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So HB is beeing clever and really are right in claiming a full-frame camera as it uses a full-frame CCD.
I don't agree with your argument because you are referring to a CCD description. When the term 'full frame' is describing a camera, it can only mean 1.0x crop factor.
In any case, Hasselblad is dishonest by claiming that it is the "World's First 48mm Full-Frame DSLR Camera System". There is nothing about the H3D format which is a first.
I also suspect they could be reffering to the reduced diameter 28mm lens which has a coverage made for the 48x36mm format and hence is a "full-frame" as in full-coverage or 1.0x crop. That would be like Nikon claiming their dSLR's to be full frame with the DX lenses.
MHO.
Yes, that's exactly what they are doing, which is deliberately misleading because the H system is marketed as a 645 system.
What happens when true 645 sensors become available? Hasselblad seems to be locking the user into the 48mm format too.
I used to own and love Hasselblad back in the 90s. How the mighty have fallen.
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See my new essay (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/photokina/H3-concerns.shtml) on this topic for my perspective on this nonsense.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78404\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
WOW. I'm dissapointed. I feel decieved to say the least and after reading your essay, I'll add appalled. I may be a couple of years offf from purchasing a MFDB but with the way the market is closing in, it may make more sense to stay with the Canon 1Ds series.
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so really the H1/2 system will be looked at as a 5 year system..2 bodies, 4,5? lenses...that's it...not unlke the hasselblad 2000 system (not sure abot the name, the one with the film plane shutter)...
first i thought, well the ususal hasselblad nonsense: leaf/mamiya have been selling integrated (but not closed) pro-digital kits (including full frame) for years...and really you don't have to buy the H3, just stay with the H2 (same camera anyway) and keep the leaf/phase backs and buy the new lenses...
the announcement that the H1/2 cannot take any new lenses is simply unbelievable....
anyone who invested in the most expensive (IMHO overpriced because of a perceived monopoly) MF system (ever?) is now left out in the cold....
i guess i would understand if hasselblad would simply force people to get the new body...but do they really think they can force people to switch to their backs? to simply drop their leaf and phase backs to get a imacon back? the only backs out there that still have some serious (color, skintone!) problems?
maybe the imacon side, which of course makes great scanners and which brought in everything behind the lens (back, software), told the cameramakers: look, in order to get this under control, we have to have a lens to chip to software solution...just has to be just like in our scanners we have to be able to control the light all the way...
i guess anyone with a phase and a 3 year warranty can have their back-mount switched for free anyway...for others it will be a fee...
either way, everything else looks better and more alive then hasselblad right now...
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The H3 pretty much removes landscape, architecture and prodcuct photographers who want the finest digital lenses for their Ebony, Horseman, Sinar, Arca, Linhoff, Plaubell and other digital platforms.
That is pretty straightforward and a growing market. People want to use a back on a MF body and on their T/S platform.
They also, As Michael points out so well more H2 users are for sure
1) miffed to the nth that the're H2 investment is devalued so much
2) angry that they can't choose their own back
3)feel they are being cheated and exploited.
Non H3 users, unless they could care less about history will turn their backs on H3 as the Hy6 comes to market and there's a huge amount of pressure from Leaf, Sinar and Phase one for the Rollie heir to succeed.
Michael's videoblog from photokina says it all
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/photokin...at-report.shtml (http://www.luminous-landscape.com/photokina/medium-format-report.shtml)
Asher Kelman
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do they really think they can force people to switch to their backs?
Obviously the answer is yes or they wouldn't have done it.
Hasselblad's share of the new MF DSLR body market must be at least twice their share of the MF back market. So Poulsen's challenge as CEO is crystal clear, leverage Hasselblad's body strength to lift their back business. He's chosen a pretty brutal route, but stripped of the emotion I'd judge his chances (pre Hy6) as very good. After all, what other choices did a photographer have?
Hasselblad V? Fond as I am of the V system I'd be the first to recognise it's in the digital dark ages and probably not long for this life.
Contax? And be faced with scouring Ebay for important accessories and urgently needed spare parts? No thanks.
Mamiya? No clarity or confidence regarding their future direction or stability.
Pentax? Where's the product?
Rolleiflex (pre Hy6)? Little US presence, a boutique Euro brand.
Sinar? Death by ticket shock.
Hasselblad H1/2? No doubt about it, ironically the H3D's biggest competitor actually sits in Poulsen's stable. But he's perfectly placed to progressively strangle that particular rival by cutting off the oxygen of new lenses and accessories.
So yes, no matter what we think of the morality, IMO Hasselblad had a very strong chance of just bullying their way to success.
Then along came the Hy6!
But even now Hasselblad will have a clean run at the market for at least six months until the Hy6 arrives. And selling anything in today's world is as much about marketing and distribution as about products, which means the Hy6 will still have a mountain to climb even when and if the cameras are rolling merrily off the production line.
Hasselblad may be reprehensible, but rationally I'd still rate their chances of growing the bottom line with the H3D as good. But I bet Poulsen's throwing some black looks at the Hy6's Photokina stand, because without them it would have been a banker's bet that he'd have succeed.
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Good analysis Gary. The Hy6 is the spoiler.
Thing is, those inside the industry have known about the Hy6 for some months. One has to therefore assume that Poulsen did as well.
There's even more to the story than meets the eye. Somewhat like those nested Russian dolls. But over time it will all come out.
Interesting times ahead.
Michael
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the Hy6 has been rumoured for a while...rollei has been working on it for years, i first heard about it one year ago (it was supposed to come out...)....but with the sale of the company....anyway it looks like what took them so long was worth the wait.....
Gary
after reading your post i realized that the H1/2 is as dead as contax...you can still buy them, but there will be no new development and who knows when hasselblad will pull the plug entirely....at least contax had a long life and there are a lot of lenses and add ons out there...the H1 doesn't even have a WLF?
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On the first day of Photokina at least two different booth reps stated catagorically to me and to others that the H2 would be discontinued as soon as production quantities on the H3D were sufficient.
There was so much outraged buzz about this on the show floor that by the next day and the Hasselblad press conference this was toned down to be "we'll make them as long as there's demand".
Not a statement that instills much confidence, at least in me.
Michael
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There was so much outraged buzz about this on the show floor that by the next day and the Hasselblad press conference this was toned down to be "we'll make them as long as there's demand".
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I agree this is too bad, to limit choice like this in an already small and struggling MF digital market.
In any case, any company that charges $2000 for film back and I.M.O. crazy prices for the rest of their products is honestly already off my list.
I used to use Hasselblad, but haven't in a while, and now they seem to be losing their minds more and more.
-ron
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In any case, any company that charges $2000 for film back and I.M.O. crazy prices for the rest of their products is honestly already off my list.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78499\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i could not agree more...i did not think hasselblad did anyone a favour by releasing a completely overpriced, ergonimically horrific counterpart to the very good, compact, solid mamiya 645af...i never liked the H1/2 to begin with and i always felt that if you force someone to rotate the camera, at least make it as small and as light as possible (like the mamiya or contax)....the success of the H1 has IMHO less to do with the actual quality of the product, but more with the marketing hype (unseen before in the MF world) and the demise of the competition, who simply cound not get their s*%$# together....just like it seems now that the timing seeems a bit off with the H3D and the Hy6 going head to head...hasslblad marketing is going strong already (i have already received 4 emails), rollei marketing is also as usual...i have yet to actually see a pic of the camera with the rollei name on it...of course no email...and i own 2 6008AFs and several lenses....
anyway seems like hasselblad really shot themselves in the foot with this one
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Don't bet against Hasselblad succeeding.
It is all going down to marketing muscle and technical service and support. When your camera system fails in the middle of a shoot or before a big wedding gig tomorrow, you need to be able to rent or get it repaired fast. When you need that lens for that particular gig, you need to be able to rent it. Hasselblad has traditionally been very strong in its support and marketing. Its marketing is already in place and the H3D is ready to ship NOW.
Rollei-Sinar has traditionally been very poor in marketing and support. Who is able to rent Rollei equipment even in New York City? After HP Marketing dropped Rollei, what has happened to its service and support? Where is the marketing muscle?
Technological pizzaz alone just won't cut it. Working photographers need solutions which work right now out of the box. Their paid gigs won't wait till April 07. It remains to be seen how reliable the Hy6 is. I don't see working photographers counting on an untested camera system for at least one year after its launch. And that gives Hasselblad a one and half year head start to gain market share at least. Hobbyists can wait; professionals can't.
I expect Hasselblad to offer very attractive trade-in incentives for photographers to switch to its backs. Hasselblad may have to take a loss initially but it will do so to gain market share.
If you take a look at it, all the backs from the different makers are all based on either Kodak or Dalsa chips. The only difference lies in the software and this is something that Hasselblad will resolve eventually.
Honestly, I don't think that Rollei stands much of a chance despite its technologically superior product. Until they work on their marketing and set up a network of support, the only ones to drool over the HY6 are camera geeks like me. Not all working photographers are camera geeks although most are. When it comes down to brass tacks for paid gigs, they need solutions which work with the least amount of fuss and compatibility problems. The Hy6 looks very attractive to me. But when the initial excitement wears off it is time to take a more austere look at it. Looks great but can I count on you? How reliable are you? How well are you supported? Those are the pressing questions beyond technological pizzaz.
Amongst my peers, the Hasselblad integrated all-in-one solution is the one they want. No fuss, minimum muss. The world of wedding, lifestyle and fashion pros works on a very tight timeline with little room for retakes. Of course, fine-art, landscape and hobbyist photographers will have a different take on this but how large is this market? Michael is writing from the perspective of a landscape photographer and his coterie of well-heeled friends, a few of whom may sell the occasional landscape or two or many. Their needs may not mirror the needs of the major market that Hasselblad is targetting.
Despite the anger shown against Hasselblad on this forum, I suspect that when the dust settles, Poulsen will have the last laugh. He is taking a huge gamble but it is an educated one based on his knowledge of the US market. I don't know about the Europeans but Rollei isn't strong there either. And Asia tends to follow the lead of the Americans.
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Who in God's name legitimately needs to make a back with a chip larger than 39MP???
39MP yields Raw files in 8 bit that are roughly 100MB, 16bit 200MB, - equivalent to drum scanned 4x5. This is getting ridiculous.
I for one, a person who makes my living daily creating images finds this talk of even larger chips utter folly.
Those of you who are independently wealthy and/or have the time to kill taking positions on the need for this stuff obviously are more concerned with hardware and less with creating marketable images. Fine, that I guess could be a good pastime.
As for MR's commments regarding Hasselblad's decision to make a "closed" system. Who bloody cares about the ethics of this decision. They're a business in a rarified marketplace, and they will succeed or fail on their choice of direction. MR seems to have picked Phase because he has a friend at Phase who likes to go on trips with him to test equipment. Fine it's a good back that makes fine images - just like Leaf, Hasselblad and Eyelike. It's up to Phase to figure out how to compete with this latest turn of events and win over the pros. That's the world of business. It's a competitive world , where innovation rules - it's the captialistic way. If people agree with MR and don't like what Hasselblad is doing, then they won't buy. If they do, then Hasselblad made a proper business decision.
Personally, I buy equipment that allows me to make the best quality images possible, period. If someone, like say, Nikon decides they're not going to manufacture full frame 35mm digital and I want full frame 35mm digital, I switch to Canon, which I did after 30 years of using Nikon. That's reality. That's the consumer deciding what works best for his particular needs. A year ago I was torn between Leaf and Hasselblad 22MP backs - both make great images. I chose Hasselblad specifically because they were integrated with a camera system, and I suspected they'd make advances in the evolution of lens distortion correction technology. It was a predictable and logical progression. Now it's up to the other MF manufacturer's to figure out how to compete.
As for Victor turning in his grave? That depends on whether his company (and his name) end up stronger or slowly weakens and fades away (say, like Mamiya, Contax, Rollei) in the end doesn't it, really?
If H3 is rated as full frame, what will happen in 20 months time when Dalsa and Kodak bring out real full frame? In Michael's interview with ceo Phase One I think the line was "It's going to be 20 months before a bigger chip is available so we developed the P+ backs while we wait" or similar.
Damien.
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..the success of the H1 has IMHO less to do with the actual quality of the product, but more with the marketing hype (unseen before in the MF world) and the demise of the competition, who simply cound not get their s*%$# together....just like it seems now that the timing seeems a bit off with the H3D and the Hy6 going head to head...hasslblad marketing is going strong already (i have already received 4 emails), rollei marketing is also as usual...i have yet to actually see a pic of the camera with the rollei name on it...of course no email...and i own 2 6008AFs and several lenses....
anyway seems like hasselblad really shot themselves in the foot with this one
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78504\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
But let's look at Rollei for a while. They obviously have been working closely with Leaf and Phase One with Sinar at the planning table. So shouldnt there be enough pressure, brains and money to get the Hy6 out fast. After all 3 digital backs are depending on it! Or these guys cannot get together enough to do that?
For me I have two questions:
1. When can we expect a Hy6 in the stores?
2. Will we have to commit to the back or will there be adapters or adaption possible?
Asher Kelman
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My sentiments exactly, Richard.
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Just when I thought Hasselblad "gets" it ... when they came out with the attractively priced CFV back for those of us who still have 203 and 205 bodies .... and they provided a reasonably priced upgrade for us H1 users to an H2 ... they go and close the system (even to those of us who have a full set of the H series lenses). The last major company to do that was IBM when they developed a proprietary bus to lock out all the other manufacturers who made product for the generic ISA bus ... and we see where it got them ... they went out of the PC manufacturing business years ago. Hopefully Hasselblad will rethink their strategy .... and fire the ignorant marketing person who dreamed up this less than original idea. Historically, monopolies have never worked in the longterm.
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First, we gotta find a coterie of East Asian clones which is able to manufacture camera systems of comparable reliability and support at keen price points to Hasselblad's that working photographers will want to bet their careers on.
Doesn't look like that is gonna happen. As for monopolies and oligopolies, remember Coca-Cola and the Seven Sisters (now Six)?
You may argue that Hasselblad isn't a soft-drink company but I will counter that Hasselblad isn't a computer company either. Different business, different dynamics. Don't need to go to Harvard Business School to know that.
Time will tell if that 'ignorant' marketing guy is really all that ignorant.
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Does anyone know how Hassy will prevent others from making backs which work with their new H3 cameras?
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Don't bet against Hasselblad succeeding.
It is all going down to marketing muscle and technical service and support. When your camera system fails in the middle of a shoot or before a big wedding gig tomorrow, you need to be able to rent or get it repaired fast. When you need that lens for that particular gig, you need to be able to rent it. Hasselblad has traditionally been very strong in its support and marketing. Its marketing is already in place and the H3D is ready to ship NOW.
Rollei-Sinar has traditionally been very poor in marketing and support. Who is able to rent Rollei equipment even in New York City? After HP Marketing dropped Rollei, what has happened to its service and support? Where is the marketing muscle?
Technological pizzaz alone just won't cut it. Working photographers need solutions which work right now out of the box. Their paid gigs won't wait till April 07. It remains to be seen how reliable the Hy6 is. I don't see working photographers counting on an untested camera system for at least one year after its launch. And that gives Hasselblad a one and half year head start to gain market share at least. Hobbyists can wait; professionals can't.
I expect Hasselblad to offer very attractive trade-in incentives for photographers to switch to its backs. Hasselblad may have to take a loss initially but it will do so to gain market share.
If you take a look at it, all the backs from the different makers are all based on either Kodak or Dalsa chips. The only difference lies in the software and this is something that Hasselblad will resolve eventually.
Honestly, I don't think that Rollei stands much of a chance despite its technologically superior product. Until they work on their marketing and set up a network of support, the only ones to drool over the HY6 are camera geeks like me. Not all working photographers are camera geeks although most are. When it comes down to brass tacks for paid gigs, they need solutions which work with the least amount of fuss and compatibility problems. The Hy6 looks very attractive to me. But when the initial excitement wears off it is time to take a more austere look at it. Looks great but can I count on you? How reliable are you? How well are you supported? Those are the pressing questions beyond technological pizzaz.
Amongst my peers, the Hasselblad integrated all-in-one solution is the one they want. No fuss, minimum muss. The world of wedding, lifestyle and fashion pros works on a very tight timeline with little room for retakes. Of course, fine-art, landscape and hobbyist photographers will have a different take on this but how large is this market? Michael is writing from the perspective of a landscape photographer and his coterie of well-heeled friends, a few of whom may sell the occasional landscape or two or many. Their needs may not mirror the needs of the major market that Hasselblad is targetting.
Despite the anger shown against Hasselblad on this forum, I suspect that when the dust settles, Poulsen will have the last laugh. He is taking a huge gamble but it is an educated one based on his knowledge of the US market. I don't know about the Europeans but Rollei isn't strong there either. And Asia tends to follow the lead of the Americans.
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i think the amount of people talking about this new camera is great viral marketing for the hy6. i guarantee there are as much photographers talking about the hy6 as photographers bitching over the h3d.
they have spent peanuts, and every photographer i talk to is buzing about the hy6. i think the muscle of all these companies working together is different than any photographic product in the past. the main tooling is done, and the proto type is actually working, before it was even anounced (except a couple of electronic features).
hasselblads may be popular to rental places now, but i have come across rental houses that have had enough of the hassles with the h1, and no longer rent them. other rental places live with the hassles as its the only "new system".
i was talking to a rental place today, and they are worried about the closed system hasselblad is pursuing.
as for service, im in new zealand and hasselblad service is no existant, australia is slow, and when i got the firmware updated on my h1 in the usa, it took 5 weeks!
theres a kind of arrogance with them as they are the biggest selling camera, but they are the biggest sellers because the competition hasnt come up with the goods. but thats about to change.
dont get me wrong, i do like many things about the h1/2, but unless they buck up their ideas, they will lose a lot of market share.
paul
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Rollei-Sinar has traditionally been very poor in marketing and support. Who is able to rent Rollei equipment even in New York City? After HP Marketing dropped Rollei, what has happened to its service and support? Where is the marketing muscle?
I think you are missing a crucial point. Rollei is not doing this alone. Leaf and Phase One will be releasing this camera through their existing networks. I'll be shocked if rental places which already have the backs DON'T start to supply the Hy6 to go with it. It works better with their existing investment.
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I think you are missing a crucial point. Rollei is not doing this alone. Leaf and Phase One will be releasing this camera through their existing networks. I'll be shocked if rental places which already have the backs DON'T start to supply the Hy6 to go with it. It works better with their existing investment.
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Pros aren't the only ones watching this development. I assume the sellers who have different backs aren't to thrilled about this development. As much as I like this new Hy^ (and hate the name) I wonder how will it compare ergonomically, feature-wise, will it be robust...The Mamiya ZD saga was one tale of the pit-falls of developing new models, Pentax's long-awaited cam is another. Couple that with the late release date and the bugs might not be worked out till fall/winter 07 at the earliest.
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I think you are missing a crucial point. Rollei is not doing this alone. Leaf and Phase One will be releasing this camera through their existing networks. I'll be shocked if rental places which already have the backs DON'T start to supply the Hy6 to go with it. It works better with their existing investment.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78536\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Tell me how well Rollei. Sinar, Leaf and Phase One have been marketing themselves over the last five years and I will gladly concede that I miss the crucial point. These are not exactly companies well known for their marketing savvy. Hasselblad however, is.
Rollei, Leaf, Phase One and Sinar combined cannot match the marketing muscle of Hasselblad USA. At the end of the day, whoever provides the most complete all-in-one solution takes the market.
Why would rental houses who would not take a second look at the Rollei 6008 system all these years, all of a sudden take an interest in the Hy6? Essentially the same camera, different shell. And until the announcement of the Hy6, how many digital backs could you find that would attach itself to the Rollei? Prepare to be shocked because rental houses stock what photographers would want to shoot. And until the Hy6 penetrates the market to some degree (it won't start until April 07), don't expect rental houses to carry any Rollei equipment. Rental houses are in this to make money, not to cosset some technological whizz kit with poor support. Don't you think that Hasselblad would be working with rental houses to ensure their visibility at this moment? And they have the H3d ready as we speak, not six months down the road, if at all. Can rental houses wait that long? Can photographers wait that long? And by the time the Hy6 is truly ready and everything that it promises to be, will photographers be convinced to switch when what they have, the Hasselblad, has worked as well as it has? Not bloody likely, as Seinfeld sez.
Phase One hasn't said a whit about wanting in with Rollei. So far, it has been speculation. Don't forget that Phase One is in talks with Mamiya. Leaf America is part of Mamiya America Corp. Something's gotta give and I don't think MAC is about t give up Mamiya.
With Leaf and its spotty record of delivering on its promises with the Leaf Aptus series, would you expect it to market the LEAF AFi well at all?
In fact, with the Rollei line splintering up into four distinct groups, market confusion is the end result. Witness how many questions loom on this forum about what the Hy6 really is.
With so much uncertainty going on, you'd expect photographers to stand in line for the Hy6, would you?
The person who commented that there is interest generated about the Hy6 by viral marketing is correct. But it is one thing to be curious about a product and another thing to having a physical product in your hands and making you part with your hard-earned dollars for and risk your reputation on it. Curiousity has seldom translated into sales.
As it is, we are all speculating based on our biases. You are all besotted with what you think the Hy6 promises without waiting to see if its promises can be delivered.
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Tell me how well Rollei. Sinar, Leaf and Phase One have been marketing themselves over the last five years and I will gladly concede that I miss the crucial point. These are not exactly companies well known for their marketing savvy. Hasselblad however, is.
Rollei, Leaf, Phase One and Sinar combined cannot match the marketing muscle of Hasselblad USA. At the end of the day, whoever provides the most complete all-in-one solution takes the market.
Why would rental houses who would not take a second look at the Rollei 6008 system all these years, all of a sudden take an interest in the Hy6? Essentially the same camera, different shell. And until the announcement of the Hy6, how many digital backs could you find that would attach itself to the Rollei? Prepare to be shocked because rental houses stock what photographers would want to shoot. And until the Hy6 penetrates the market to some degree (it won't start until April 07), don't expect rental houses to carry any Rollei equipment. Rental houses are in this to make money, not to cosset some technological whizz kit with poor support. Don't you think that Hasselblad would be working with rental houses to ensure their visibility at this moment? And they have the H3d ready as we speak, not six months down the road, if at all. Can rental houses wait that long? Can photographers wait that long? And by the time the Hy6 is truly ready and everything that it promises to be, will photographers be convinced to switch when what they have, the Hasselblad, has worked as well as it has? Not bloody likely, as Seinfeld sez.
Phase One hasn't said a whit about wanting in with Rollei. So far, it has been speculation. Don't forget that Phase One is in talks with Mamiya. Leaf America is part of Mamiya America Corp. Something's gotta give and I don't think MAC is about t give up Mamiya.
With Leaf with its spotty record of delivering on its promises with the Leaf Aptus series, would you expect it to market the LEAF AFi well at all?
In fact, with the Rollei line splintering up into four distinct groups, market confusion is the end result. Witness how many questions loom on this forum about what the Hy6 really is.
With so much uncertainty going on, you'd expect photographers to stand in line for the Hy6, would you?
The person who commented that there is interest generated about the Hy6 by viral marketing is correct. But it is one thing to be curious about a product and another thing to having a physical product in your hands and making you part with your hard-earned dollars for and risk your reputation on it. Curiousity has seldom translated into sales.
As it is, we are all speculating based on our biases. You are all besotted with what you think the Hy6 promises without waiting to see if its promises can be delivered.
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i realise that the rollei still needs to live up to its promises, but if it does, it will be a winner.
if hasselbald keeps the door closed on the future of its non-imacon customers, the hy6 wont need very much marketing to sell. rollei will have to come up with the goods of cause, but the market is theirs.
like i said before, the h1 is a pretty good camera. but the customers they lose is because they are shutting them out of any future improvements. they wont buy imacon if they are a leaf or phase user, just because its the only option with a future.
for the phase/leaf/sinar users, the future for the h1 is as rosy as the contax's is.
paul
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thanks izaack, for putting some informed balance into this discussions that to me feels very lobsided and showing many opinions propagated by self interest instead of knowing the market as a whole.
BTW my opinion is also propagated by self interest, but I am happy shooting with a H2D39, what can I say?
Marc
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Does anyone know how Hassy will prevent others from making backs which work with their new H3 cameras?
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By having the intellectual property rights on the connections and mount which is already the case with the H-Mount.
You need to obtain a license to develop and manufacture stuff with an H-mount.
Unless you want to be taken to court by Hasselblad over this you cannot manufacture anything with their mount without their consent.
At least that is the way I expect it is going to be.
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By having the intellectual property rights on the connections and mount which is already the case with the H-Mount.
You need to obtain a license to develop and manufacture stuff with an H-mount.
Unless you want to be taken to court by Hasselblad over this you cannot manufacture anything with their mount without their consent.
At least that is the way I expect it is going to be.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78553\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I suppose things are even more complicated than this, I was at the Sinar stand yesterday, having a look at the Sinar F3 and the M camera too, and asked if there is a kind of possiblity to fit a Phaseone back sooner or later. They told me if Phase or someone eles would like to produce a back for the m, they could (or did he mean that they wouldn't mind?) Now i suppose there aren't that many M cameras out there, that's why the back manufacturers aren't interested (yet).
tom-
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The presentation of the Hy6 has been a marketing disaster.
Rollei is nothing in the actual market. They must to explain what are the strong points of this new "open" platform and what are the compromises assumed with potential clients. What are you offering, why it is a good offer, what problems and demands of clients are you serving better, what are the new possibilities that this system brings and competitors cannot offer, how strong is the involvement of the different companies (and their future plans...).
The Hy6 present more unknowns than responses at this moment. To make things worse, Leica buys Sinar to Jenoptik. Why they did it? What is the role of Leica and Jenoptik in the MF market? Leaf camera was a last minute idea. It was not planned a Leaf clon of the Rollei camera.
This is not a open and public standard, like the 4/3 system is. This is a de facto semi-open platform based on internal (secret) agreements among several companies. We don't know the terms of those agreements. Rollei developed the camera based on the 6000 series, but we don't know if Sinar participated in it. We don't know who paid the bills. We don't know who is the owner of the patents. We don't know if Phase One will be invited or blocked. We know nothing about the "openess" of this "system". We don't know if Schneider and Zeiss are involved in the project or not, and if Leica will offer lenses or not (Sinar was involved in it before Leica purchased them... What is Leica thinking about the Hy6? Is it a mere collateral "accident" of the puchase?)... What is the distribution and support model planned for this camera?
Hasselblad has a stronger position in the MF market, only challenged by Canon (from "outside"). Mamiya is in trouble. Pentax will try. They will offer "closed" MF solutions. Say bye-bye to the other contenders (digital backs manufacturers like Sinar, Leaf, Phase One...).
So... there is an opportunity for a new contender that offers a better solution than Hasselblad (more open, more friendly to photographers) and good (modern, full of features) enough to fight against Canon. Leaf (owned by Kodak), Phase One, Sinar (owned by Leica), Rollei... should establish a new standard, open to all, under clear and public specifications, with a clear commitment from expressely involved companies, and make public all the information in a ordered and clear form. The 4/3 consortium is an acceptable model for one such "open platform". This new "open" and well defined standard is a must, absolutely. If these companies try to go to war separated, I give them a few months of life... Things are changing, competition is stronger and the camera manufacturers are closing their cameras and providing "in house" digital solutions... it is clear to me what will happen...
This is not a question of engineering, but marketing... simple and pure market strategy.
I wish and hope these German companies wake up...
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Purely from a self interested point of view, I'm very interested in the Hy6, I think it has potential. I think Hasselblad have shot themselves in the foot with their closed system, not to mention bullshit 'full frame' advertising.
The rental issue is not of interest to me. I have never rented and prefer to buy. Maybe I'm lucky but all the equipment I have bought has been very reliable (he says touching wood), and as a professional, I always have backup so a non issue for me. When I did need repair or support Rollei, in the past, was no slower or worse the blad even though they had a much, much smaller user base. So also non issue for me.
As a long time V series blad user in film days, then a long time Rollei user, then back to blad (when Rollei, at the time didn't accept P1 backs), I have never ruled out the possibility of moving to H series... until know.
I have looked at them in the past but, for my way of shooting never jumped. I prefer to rotate the back rather than the camera, German glass to Japanese, waist level finders. Imacon backs never floated my boat and, compared to C1, Flex software and workflow sucks. Although of course that wasn't a problem as you could have chosen another back.... until know. I'm P1 at the moment but wouldn't rule out changing to Leaf or SInar in the future, as long as the camera platform is supported. The implementation of this with the Hy6 remains to be seen but, hopefully, will give me the choice... very important to me.
The old V series has proven to be a reliable, simple platform and a joy to use, although it would be nice sometimes to have the creature comforts of AF, metering and getting rid of some external wiring. Enter the Hy6. It has those added features, retains the features I enjoy, waist level finder, Zeiss and Schneider glass and retains the square format. I like square and if a rumour, that certain companies are talking with other companies about making a 48mm square sensor turns out to be true, I for one, will be very happy. If it happens (a way off yet I guess), it really would be a poke in the eye to Hasselblad. If Michael's comments about Victor turning in his grave are right (and I think they are), that would get him to a high speed spin.
So, for the moment, I'll stay with V series. Considering an H has now out of the window so that's one potential sale that Hasselblad have lost and, I suspect, not the only one.
All IMHO. Your milage may vary.
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Tell me how well Rollei. Sinar, Leaf and Phase One have been marketing themselves over the last five years and I will gladly concede that I miss the crucial point. These are not exactly companies well known for their marketing savvy. Hasselblad however, is.
Actually I haven't heard so much as a 'boo' from Hasselblad for years. Only by indirect reports and third party websites. If they do any marketing at all, it must be elsewhere.
Rollei, Leaf, Phase One and Sinar combined cannot match the marketing muscle of Hasselblad USA. At the end of the day, whoever provides the most complete all-in-one solution takes the market.
...or whoever provides what that professionals want. There is nothing complete about the H system with only a few lenses and no WLF. I believe that the Hy6 will be the more complete system from the first day it hits the shelves.
Why would rental houses who would not take a second look at the Rollei 6008 system all these years, all of a sudden take an interest in the Hy6?
Because suddenly it will work with their existing rental backs (afaik). The 6008 didn't.
I guess we come from different worlds. I know people who own P1 backs but I never met anyone who rented one. Seems to be more of a big deal in the US. Europeans tend to own their own gear. The rental market is meaningless to me.
And by the time the Hy6 is truly ready and everything that it promises to be, will photographers be convinced to switch when what they have, the Hasselblad, has worked as well as it has? Not bloody likely, as Seinfeld sez.
There are no H3D owners yet. Some people will upgrade. This number will be small compared to the number of high-end DSLR users who are waiting for a clear MF solution. Many have been hanging on for a clear winner and to see what happens with Mamiya. The H system is far from mature, and as I already wrote, the Hy6 will be a more complete system from day one. I only hope they can release it soon.
In fact, with the Rollei line splintering up into four distinct groups, market confusion is the end result. Witness how many questions loom on this forum about what the Hy6 really is.
Probably not more than the questions asked about the H system a few days after that was first announced. 99% of questions will be answered once specs are published. I don't see your point.
You are all besotted with what you think the Hy6 promises without waiting to see if its promises can be delivered.
It's true we don't have hard facts, but unlike the H system, this system already uses a proven range of lenses and other parts. I'll be happy if the thing just connects Rollei lenses to my choice of P1/Leaf/Sinar back. The rest is a bonus.
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I own H1/ P25 is as good today as it was when I bought it. I can put a P45+ on it too if I want and still be ahead of the H3D. The H3 seems to be a rebadged H2 which in turn is a rebadged H1 (no mention of faster AF or better metering). I'm not sure about the accesories thing either. There is nothing to suggest the waist level finder won't work on my H1 is there? In fact no mention of any accesories not compatable with H1 in anything I've read. The only compatability issue mentioned is the 28mm lens. I'm happy with my 35mm at the wide end and not after anything wider. Now it is likely that you need the software to correct abberations and distorsions on the 18mm so that may be the reason for incompatability. The only other reason can only be a deeper pertruding rear element. The H3 can have a smaller mirror as it is no longer real full frame capable. I wouldn't be surprised if a third party like Phase One included lens mapping in its software portfolio. We will have to wait and see.
It does seem that the agressive stance by Hasselblad is likely to do more damage than good to their sales. I'm sure that for the past 2 years or so Phase One has been making more profit than Hasselblad and if Phase was to partner Mamiya and make better backs than Imacon then Hasselblad too will become a boutique brand to join Rollei.
Damien.
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I'm sure that for the past 2 years or so Phase One has been making more profit than Hasselblad
Damien, I think you're getting to the heart of the issue here, it's this commercial reality that really explains why Hasselblad have taken such an aggressive stance.
I believe Phase One have about 60% of the single-shot, medium format back market. So what's Imacon's share? Obviously it can't be more than 40%, even 30% sounds high, so I'd say 20% or less. Which means Phase One are probably selling three backs or more to every one sold by Imacon.
And what about medium format SLR camera bodies? Well here it's a completely different story, Hasselblad don't have a great deal of competition at the moment so it's reasonable to assume that their share of the body market must be over 60%, I wouldn't be surprised if it was currently 80% or even higher.
But what about the relative profitability of backs and bodies? I understand that Kodak charges about $5k per sensor, which suggests to me that there's roughly $5k of gross margin in every back sale. However, I very much doubt that Hasselblad takes $5k from each sale of an H1/2 plus a couple of lenses, not after Fuji's slice. And furthermore the replacement cycle for backs is far more attractive than that for bodies. There's plenty of sexy developments still to come with backs (even if it's needed or not), but there's not too much that can be done to tempt a photographer to upgrade current bodies. I guess that professional photographer's will upgrade their backs every two to three years, but only upgrade their bodies every five to ten years.
So the profit's in backs, but Hasselblad's strength is in bodies. And that strategic truth will only grow in importance over the coming years. I doubt too many people are buying brand new, medium format cameras and lenses today with the intention of using them with film. Tomorrow it will be virtually nil. The future for the medium format SLR business is digital, and digital means backs not bodies.
Now if Victor Hasselblad was still in charge he might be swayed by sentimentality. But he's not in charge, a hard headed Hong Kong trading company called Shriro runs Hasselblad, and they'll be beating CEO Poulsen around the head saying come up with a plan to drive our back sales or we'll find someone who can. And Poulsen's strategy is very simple, he plans to strong-arm the market into Imacon backs with the H3D. If you play around with some numbers you'll see he can afford to lose quite a few body sales and still be ahead on the bottom line so long as he sells just a few more backs. I'm not privvy to Hasselblad's financial data, but taking a few eductated guesses I reckon they'll still make a lot more money if they sell a third fewer bodies but get Imacon backs on all of them.
And that, to my commercial mind if not my photographer's mind, sounds like a gamble worth taking.
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I'm sure that for the past 2 years or so Phase One has been making more profit than HasselbladDamien.
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Damien:
You're sure based on....
It has been widely distributed that Phase One lost money for years. The first profitable year they had was rumored to be 2004. Emphasis on "rumor". So, that is not necessarily known fact. Hard to find out without being a publicly traded company, like Hasselblad. Hasselblad was losing money until the Imacon merger. Within a year, they were profitable again (fact), and they are profitable today. As for the future....
You have to remember, unit sales are never the only factor of profitability. Profitability is based on a balance sheet.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
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Profitability is based on a balance sheet.
Hmm? Last time I looked profitability was based on a profit and loss account.
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Hmm? Last time I looked profitability was based on a profit and loss account.
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Gary:
Pardon my wording - balance sheets contain statements of assets/liabilities, etc, do they not?
What I meant is that unit sales alone do not mean a company is profitable. Phase One certainly sells more digital backs than Hasselblad, but that doesn't mean they're profitable. You could not determine that without seeing a "balance sheet" or statement of profit/loss, if you like.
Dell sells more computers than Apple. It doesn't speak to their profitability in any particular way, other than it completes an "asset" column in the ledger, just one part of the equation.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
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Steve:
While the intense opinions on the morality and marketing savvy/stupidity behind Hassleblad's approach with the H3 are all well expressed and heartfelt, I would be very interested in more practical observations from you and others about the plusses/minusses/differences in the file quality and workflow with the Hasselblad 39MP backs compared to the P1 P45 and the Aptus75. I recall you are a Hasselblad and Leaf dealer.
Thanks.
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What I meant is that unit sales alone do not mean a company is profitable.
And on that we can certainly agree.
Steve:
I would be very interested in more practical observations from you and others about the plusses/minusses/differences in the file quality and workflow with the Hasselblad 39MP backs compared to the P1 P45 and the Aptus75. I recall you are a Hasselblad and Leaf dealer.
Has Hasselblad demonstrated anywhere the practical benefits of their "digital apo correction" system (apologies if I've got the name wrong). This seems to be the corner stone of their justification for a closed system, and therefore I'd like to learn more about it. In particular I'd like to see evidence that it works (ie before and after comparisons), and understand why it demands a closed system rather than just a post capture module similar to DxO.
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In particular I'd like to see evidence that it works (ie before and after comparisons), and understand why it demands a closed system rather than just a post capture module similar to DxO.
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Gary,
Wouldn't it be simpler to go to a dealer and do some testing on your own rather than rant? I for one, have taken the time to do just that and amazingly have found that what they claim is true! Wow! Can you believe it? DAC actually works!
Hey, but rather than take my or anyone else's word for it just take the time to go test the camera and make your own judgement.
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Wouldn't it be simpler to go to a dealer and do some testing on your own rather than rant? I for one, have taken the time to do just that and amazingly have found that what they claim is true! Wow! Can you believe it? DAC actually works!
I never said it wouldn't Richard. I've an open mind, if veering towards the sceptical, regarding DAC. Not a bad policy with Hasselblad. After all they're the ones that told us the 905 was an advance over the 903. Before it emerged the emperor was stark bollock naked and the 905 was a forced move as Zeiss could no longer source the optical glasses needed for the 903. Oops!
So, let us all benefit from your investigations. You saw files with and without DAC did you? And to get to the heart of the issue, why does DAC demand a closed system?
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I can really understand how people are so upset by Hasselblads decision over their future direction. Especially as they've invested so much money in their present systems. I ask the question, probably from a naive point of view, do we really need to invest in another new Hasselblad to successfully carry on our businesses? Will it improve our photography and turnover, is it really necessary? I know it carries a whole bunch of new technology with it, including DAC whatever the hell that means, but do we honestly need it to create better pictures. James Russell seems to manage very well with his Contax gear and he seems to be a very busy photographer.
Some time ago I decided to stop pixel peeping and gear lusting and concentrate on my work. It improved enormously and thankfully still continues to do so. I looked at the work of people I admire and tried to find out what gear they used and quite often it was very basic. I won't get sucked into buying gear from any manufacturer that becomes obsolete after a couple of years. I reckon Hasseblad are digging themselves a hole with their future policy. If they disappear down it good luck to them. Kodak thought they had a monoply on film until Fuji came along.
Barrie Watts
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I am still unsure about this whole 'closed system' thing
The H3 looks to be the same camera as the H1/2 with firmware upgrade and a viewer that covers the 48 chip size rather than 645
Blad are obviously pushing thier own products but how are they actually closing out the other back makers
The 28 obviously relys on some image correction but surely a third party plug in or regular PS skills will correct this lens
As I said before I am sure BMW say 'our cars only work with our wheels' whereas everyone knows there is a thriving market for after market low profile alloys
Can anyone link to a web page with the quote 'our system wont work with others' from a reliable Blad source
Why didnt anyone at Kina just grab the lense/body and try swapping the bits with thier H1/2
If blad werent allowing that then that adds weight to my theory
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a closed system has the advantage that the manufacturer has control over all aspects of the imagemaking...which would be the ideal case...BUT we all know that it is hard to make the best camera, the best lenses, the best back, the best chip and the best software all in one company...(i guess hasselblad still uses kodak and fuji for some of this, but they still make more of their own parts in house then the others...)
so the "old" idea of a seperate camera maker, seperate lens maker, seperate back maker and seperate software designer still makes more sense to me...especially if they seem to work closer together then ever before...as in the case of the Hy6...
i am not sure about the uncertainty of the Hy6...the lenses are available, the backs are available and franke&heidecke will build a body that will be labeled sinar, leaf, rollei or whatever and below it will say made by franke&heidecke...very simple...just like zeiss has built lenses for rollei and hasselblad...
the fact that F&H works so closely with leaf, sinar (and phase?) and schneider and jenoptic is wonderful and esures that everybody does what they are doing best...throw in the fact that the leaf and sinar back files can be opened by most converters and editing software already...this is about choices!
all i can say that the 645 rotating film back designed for the 6000 series is amazing, anyone who has ever held one or worked with one knows what i am talking about...it fits into the back-adapter with contacts on both sides, almost gets sucked in, the fit is amazing, a simple and elegant solution which screams for a digital chip....from the photos and from some text from a german site i understand that the Hy6 will even take these backs/inserts from the 6000 series...when people talk about the Hy6 like it is some spaceship they forget that it really is a slimmed down 6008af (even the controls are in the same place) and that the 6008af is a very mature product in its 3rd generation.....
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why does DAC demand a closed system?
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Probably software/firmware. That would be my guess. It's the same reason you can't use Flexcolor with a Phase or Leaf back or vice versa Phase's and Leaf's software with a Hasselblad back. Honestly, do you think Leaf and Phase would allow Hasselblad to have at their capture software in order to write the proper data into it, even if the could? Why would Haselblad want to do that anyway? It's really not in their interest. They have a technology that gives them a definite edge over the others. Why negate that? This is a tough business and it seems right now all of the players have an attitude of every man for himself. No different that Canon, Nikon, Pentax, Mamiya. They want to sell more backs and this certainly gives people a reason to consider them.
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Probably software/firmware. That would be my guess....
That is not a reason for ADC 'demanding' a closed system.
The original poster's point was that Hasselblad are once again making a false claim by suggesting that a closed system was 'necessary' to implement ADC. What rubbish. Whatever processing is done to the captured data, it could be done on a PC as well as in-camera.
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That is not a reason for ADC 'demanding' a closed system.
The original poster's point was that Hasselblad are once again making a false claim by suggesting that a closed system was 'necessary' to implement ADC. What rubbish. Whatever processing is done to the captured data, it could be done on a PC as well as in-camera.
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You do NOT have proof to say that it is indeed rubbish and false. This is pure speculation on your part and does a disservice to Hasselblad.
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You do NOT have proof to say that it is indeed rubbish and false. This is pure speculation on your part and does a disservice to Hasselblad.
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Nope, it is false. Software is software, regardless of whether it runs in a custom DSP or on a PC. The data can be processed with identical results.
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Nope, it is false. Software is software, regardless of whether it runs in a custom DSP or on a PC.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78622\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It is still speculation and is based on your understanding of what software should be and how it should be implemented in your ideal world. Software, including firmware, can be proprietary.
You still cannot furnish proof other than speculation.
The data can be processed with identical results.
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Prove it.
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This isn't an end all decision for closing the system by Hasselblad. A simple flash of the ROM and the opening of the architecture at a later date when the revenue crosses a bean counters desk will verify whether it was a good decision or time to change course. Does the higher attachment rate of Hasselblad backs revenue exceed the lost revenue of the camera system?
The entire medium and large format back market is in flux. Double secret handshake agreements, strategic alliances and market altering acquisitions. There isn't room for 4 players in the market and everyone is grasping for partnerships with outside vendors. PhaseOne courting Mamiya while providing the software for Leica's flagship product while they acquire a majority share of Sinar. Jenoptik bows out of their Sinar acquisition but meanwhile still has a technology agreement in place and also with Leaf via Franke and Heidecke.
Strange bedfellows and interesting times ahead. It will definitely prove to be novel material in the not too distant future.
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It is still speculation and is based on your understanding of what software should be and how it should be implemented in your ideal world. Software, including firmware, can be proprietary.
Making software proprietary has nothing to do with the fact that the same processing could be handled on a PC and therefore the closed system IS NOT NECESSARY. This is a simple fact obvious to anyone who understands digital electronics. Not trying to flame you but this obviously isn't your field of expertise so why pretend it is?
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Making software proprietary has nothing to do with the fact that the same processing could be handled on a PC and therefore the closed system IS NOT NECESSARY. This is a simple fact obvious to anyone who understands digital electronics. Not trying to flame you but this obviously isn't your field of expertise so why pretend it is?
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Prove it, foto-z. Show me that I am ignorant. You cannot prove your claim, can you, except to make sweeping statements. That is not proof.
How would you know what is necessary for Hasselblad? How do you know what it takes to implement Hasselblad's DAC except that YOU feel that it is not necessary?
It is quite clear to me that it is NOT your field of expertise either so why do you pretend to know anymore than you really do? Your remarks, my friend, is borne out of sheer naivety and ignorance of real software engineering issues and nothing else.
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This is a photography forum, not an electronics forum. I suggest you get a few books and learn something. I could point out that I studied electronic engineering at university level but I doubt you'd listen anyway and I'm not about to reproduce a 500 page book on electronics in this forum. Geez... My last post on this diversion. Believe Hasselblad's marketing BS if you want, what do I care.
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This is a photography forum, not an electronics forum. I suggest you get a few books and learn something. I could point out that I studied electronic engineering at university level
---snip---
Believe Hasselblad's marketing BS if you want, what do I care.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78637\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I have a Ph.D, and a couple of undergrad degrees in related subjects. foto-z is right as far as image processing is concerned.
HOWEVER, I did have an interview with the Hasselblad CEO, where he indicated that he was now intending to make "dumb" cameras with "smart" backs that talk directly to the lens, because the back processors are getting more and more powerful. In this *future* scenario, where the back processor potentially takes over focus, exposure, diaphragm and shutter control third party backs are obviously not going to cut it.
Whether doing this or not makes sense I don't know, but clearly one could imagine the body becoming a cheap and dumb piece of hardware. Easy to imagine because that's exactly what the 500 bodies were.
Edmund
Edmund
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This is a photography forum, not an electronics forum. I suggest you get a few books and learn something. I could point out that I studied electronic engineering at university level but I doubt you'd listen anyway and I'm not about to reproduce a 500 page book on electronics in this forum. Geez... My last post on this diversion. Believe Hasselblad's marketing BS if you want, what do I care.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78637\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I read physics and mathematics. I have already read the books. Sweeping statements are the result of braggadoccio. You should know that by now.
You made a claim that you cannot prove. You do not know. You made a simplistic claim and imputed that Hasselblad was somehow being deceiving by keeping its system closed unnecessarily. I argued that you do not know what is necessary for Hasselblad and it is clear to me now that you don't.
Why reply if you do not care?
That is a cop out, if there ever was one.
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Please reduce the heat under the personal attacks. Keep the discussion on topic and don't allow it to become personal.
Michael
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Please reduce the heat under the personal attacks. Keep the discussion on topic amd don't allow it to become personal.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78645\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Let me be the first to apologise to you, Michael.
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Making software proprietary has nothing to do with the fact that the same processing could be handled on a PC and therefore the closed system IS NOT NECESSARY. This is a simple fact obvious to anyone who understands digital electronics. Not trying to flame you but this obviously isn't your field of expertise so why pretend it is?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78630\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Please understand that there is a large population of photographers who do not want to use DXO-type software as a separate step in post-processing to correct for lens aberrations, and would love to have the corrections applied automatically in camera. Post-processing of raw files is completely unappealing to me. I would prefer to spend my time taking photographs and making prints.
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Steve:
While the intense opinions on the morality and marketing savvy/stupidity behind Hassleblad's approach with the H3 are all well expressed and heartfelt, I would be very interested in more practical observations from you and others about the plusses/minusses/differences in the file quality and workflow with the Hasselblad 39MP backs compared to the P1 P45 and the Aptus75. I recall you are a Hasselblad and Leaf dealer.
Thanks.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78590\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hasselblad (Imacon) trailed Leaf and Phase One in single shot image quality when they dove into digital capture by aquiring ColorCrisp (Carnival Back makers) in 2001. The biggest issue for them was their color engine, which had a pronounced yellow color bias (not to be confused with recent posts - more on that later). That being said, the overall file was still outstanding, and we have many satisfied Imacon digital back users who purchased Imacon digital backs within the 2003-2004 period, who may have a bit more post-tweaking than their Leaf/Phase cousins.
From 2005, through today, Imacon (Hasselblad) has made significant strides in their software and in their image quality. In addition to Hasselblad and Leaf, I also sell Sinar. Today, the difference between a single shot capture between them is really hard to quantify as the differences have become so very slight.
I will say this about the Flexcolor software; it gets demonstrated inadequately on a regular basis and is under-appreciated. It has a wealth of features, is stable, quick and reliable.
I have seen the DAC (Digital APO Correction) work, although I haven't spent enough time with it to make it not work. The new distortion correction capability being discussed with the H3-D, also looks encouraging. What I've been told regarding these "corrections", is that due to the enhanced communication between sensor and lens, and the resulting exchange of capture data, including distance to subject, for example, DAC and Distortion Correction will perform better than, say Photoshop or another software solution like DXO, because of the difficulty in extracting all of the capture data that Flexcolor has available in the raw file.
Regarding the whole H3-D system and closed systems, etc. I don't have a conclusion there as yet. I'll be having a discussion with Hasselblad Monday to get some more insight into why they've gone in this direction, and we'll see if it makes sense.
But everyone has a right to be concerned - closed anything is generally disturbing, expecially when large investments are involved.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
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Tell me how well Rollei. Sinar, Leaf and Phase One have been marketing themselves over the last five years and I will gladly concede that I miss the crucial point. These are not exactly companies well known for their marketing savvy. Hasselblad however, is.
Rollei, Leaf, Phase One and Sinar combined cannot match the marketing muscle of Hasselblad USA. At the end of the day, whoever provides the most complete all-in-one solution takes the market.
Why would rental houses who would not take a second look at the Rollei 6008 system all these years, all of a sudden take an interest in the Hy6?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78542\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I believe you overestimate Hasselblad a little.... The H1/H2 have been the only digital MF systems for just a short time. While that gives them an advantage, it doesn't mean a decent contender can't take their place in the near future, especially one that is open-platform.
In the meantime, existing cameras like the RZ, Contax and others work just fine with digital backs, no need to jump on the bandwagon right now.
As for rental houses, the Mamiya RZ has many years ago replaced Hasselblad as a work horse for pro photographers, and Sinar is still the market leader in view cameras, regarding world wide availability.
It's a shame Mamiya failed to come up with a promising solution, they sure have the infrastructure and marketing philosophy to rule the market.
Hasselblad approached the DB market quite agressively, yet it remains to be seen how successful a brand will be which has been living on a long gone reputation for the past 10-15 years .
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Steve when you see Hassy on Monday can you put them my theory that the 3 will be no more 'closed' than the 1 or 2
There is a difference between 'supported' and 'closed'
It is obvious that the lens data will add to the H system if used with an H back that is not the same as the body not working on 'regular backs'
I think people here are getting in a twist between 'supported' and 'closed'
Also I note that the 2 is still on the hassy website advertised with the multishot backs maybe they will run D and non D in parrallel
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Very nice potted history Steve.
I think possibly the problem with Flexcolour is the documentation is very poor - particularly compared to capture one, which I use with my Canon. It certainly is capable of stunning ( and fast )results but it takes time to learn that many don't have - and some of the recent upgrades haven't helped matters - the film response settings in particular I find quite useful as it seems to extend dynamic range but I read a lot of negative comments about how it has removed a stop of sensitivity from the old settings - which isn't the case when its worked out correctly but at first glance looks rather alarming.
I'm looking forward to your report from Hasselblad - being the improbable budget kind of hasselblad /Imacon kind of guy it probably won't concern me either way too much but I like to keep abreast of it .You never know when it will impact down the line and its good to be able to plan ahead.
Hasselblad (Imacon) trailed Leaf and Phase One in single shot image quality when they dove into digital capture by aquiring ColorCrisp (Carnival Back makers) in 2001. The biggest issue for them was their color engine, which had a pronounced yellow color bias (not to be confused with recent posts - more on that later). That being said, the overall file was still outstanding, and we have many satisfied Imacon digital back users who purchased Imacon digital backs within the 2003-2004 period, who may have a bit more post-tweaking than their Leaf/Phase cousins.
From 2005, through today, Imacon (Hasselblad) has made significant strides in their software and in their image quality. In addition to Hasselblad and Leaf, I also sell Sinar. Today, the difference between a single shot capture between them is really hard to quantify as the differences have become so very slight.
I will say this about the Flexcolor software; it gets demonstrated inadequately on a regular basis and is under-appreciated. It has a wealth of features, is stable, quick and reliable.
I have seen the DAC (Digital APO Correction) work, although I haven't spent enough time with it to make it not work. The new distortion correction capability being discussed with the H3-D, also looks encouraging. What I've been told regarding these "corrections", is that due to the enhanced communication between sensor and lens, and the resulting exchange of capture data, including distance to subject, for example, DAC and Distortion Correction will perform better than, say Photoshop or another software solution like DXO, because of the difficulty in extracting all of the capture data that Flexcolor has available in the raw file.
Regarding the whole H3-D system and closed systems, etc. I don't have a conclusion there as yet. I'll be having a discussion with Hasselblad Monday to get some more insight into why they've gone in this direction, and we'll see if it makes sense.
But everyone has a right to be concerned - closed anything is generally disturbing, expecially when large investments are involved.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78653\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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hands on report with the Hy6:
here (http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00IErf&tag=)
this should answer most questions....
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I have seen the DAC (Digital APO Correction) work, although I haven't spent enough time with it to make it not work. The new distortion correction capability being discussed with the H3-D, also looks encouraging. What I've been told regarding these "corrections", is that due to the enhanced communication between sensor and lens, and the resulting exchange of capture data, including distance to subject, for example, DAC and Distortion Correction will perform better than, say Photoshop or another software solution like DXO, because of the difficulty in extracting all of the capture data that Flexcolor has available in the raw file.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78653\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Steve,
Thanks for these interesting comments, as always.
This subject is very interesting.
- Phaseone claimed in the past the their back couldn't produce a DNG file because they RAW file contains some callibration information related to the characteristics of every single back,
- Some people interpreted the Nikon move as far as auto white balance "encryption" as being also related to some sort of callibration of the sensor,
- Now Hassy also claims that they are able to do things better than the competition thanks to "insider" information about the lens and back.
There are differences between these 3 cases, but there are also things in common, namely that a manufacturer has access to some information that provides them with an advantage compared to the competition, and that they claim that this information is technically difficult to share with other players (whether this is true or not).
It is obvious to me that there is some truth to their statement, but it is also obvious to me that they are trying to make use of that to sell more of their stuff instead of letting customers choose freely the best option for every single segment of the chain.
From a technical standpoint, it seems very possible to me to define standard interfaces between segments that would let a lens communicate its characteristics to the body/back, and a soft interface that would let a back/sensor com
municate its characteristics to a downstream conversion software on a PC.
However:
- Today, these interfaces do not exist, and it is therefore likely true that a closed system has the potential to deliver better performance in the short term,
- The photographic industry has a deeply closed system culture that starts with non compatible lens mounts and extends to basically every area of the field (SLR flash, accesories,...),
- Opening completely the chain to competition has the potential to leave us with a situation where only the intially dominant player survives in each niche,
- Besides a few photographers who care - and who are currently discussing on this board and on others, most photographers don't care much about this, and are in fact not informed about these issues,
- There is always a trade off between openess and performance. Stating that openess is always the best option is over-simplistic and does not address the real concerns of the players involved. A more ellaborate approach is needed to progress on this topic. The success of Apple is a good example of a player that is striving on top of a closed approach,
- Fully opened systems where customers shop themselves for components pause some issues in terms of liability and support - what happens when the components don't interact well? The PC model is probably an interesting one here - OEM assemble components and take responsability for the system as a whole. This could be what Rollei is headed towards. Leaf plays the role of the OEM for assembling its back with the camera, and takes responsability for possible problems,
All in all, we have been dreaming for a few years about openess for the first time in the history of photography in the niche MFDB segment, it isn't very surprising that our favourite manufacturers are trying to step back to the situation that we - photographers and customers - have been tolerating for decades...
Cheers,
Bernard
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The Hy6 platform is not an open platform meaning that a camera has an "open" mount (to every lens manufacturer) and "open" back connections (to any digital back manufacturer).
I think Rollei sells the camera to digital backs manufacturers, and they adapt the body to their backs. The Leaf cameras only work with Leaf backs... This implies that we will have many "mini-Hasselblads": Leaf camera and Leaf back; Sinar camera and Sinar back; Rollei camera and Rollei back... This would be nonsense! Perhaps Hasselblad can do it, but Rollei/Sinar/Leaf don't.
The Hy6 platform must be based on a set of public specifications open to everyone, lens manufacturers and back manufacturers. I should be possible to use a Phase One back on a Leaf-branded camera, or a Leaf back on a Sinar camera, and any lens on any camera.
I hope to see this platform well-defined and really open. Potential buyers will not accept tricks. People looking for a closed platform will have Hasselblads, Mamiyas, Pentaxes... and Canons... Rollei, Sinar and Leaf cannot win in that game. They have the opportunity to offer something different.
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I think Rollei sells the camera to digital backs manufacturers, and they adapt the body to their backs. The Leaf cameras only work with Leaf backs... This implies that we will have many "mini-Hasselblads": Leaf camera and Leaf back; Sinar camera and Sinar back; Rollei camera and Rollei back... This would be nonsense! Perhaps Hasselblad can do it, but Rollei/Sinar/Leaf don't.
Huh?! Is that why Leaf has their own badged camera? Mamiya would be the only camera system of choice under those conditions becuase then you could rent various digital backs depending on the output required for the finished job. If Phase & Mamiya merge, I hope that Mamiya will accept Leaf & Sinar backs as well. My concern is that with all these mergers, Medium Format is going to do it's self in, we users are not that big of a segment of the market share.
Cheers, Denis
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I think Rollei sells the camera to digital backs manufacturers, and they adapt the body to their backs. The Leaf cameras only work with Leaf backs... This implies that we will have many "mini-Hasselblads": Leaf camera and Leaf back; Sinar camera and Sinar back; Rollei camera and Rollei back... This would be nonsense! Perhaps Hasselblad can do it, but Rollei/Sinar/Leaf don't.
I hope this isn't how it will be. The market doesn;t need a bunch of new mounts. It would be simpler for everyone to introduce a universal digital back mount. Then consumers can proceed with confidence, and confidence is lacking at the moment and hurting ALL the players.
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I think Rollei sells the camera to digital backs manufacturers, and they adapt the body to their backs. The Leaf cameras only work with Leaf backs... This implies that we will have many "mini-Hasselblads": Leaf camera and Leaf back; Sinar camera and Sinar back; Rollei camera and Rollei back... This would be nonsense! [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78732\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't believe this to be the case as the mounting method for the backs looked to be the same at Photokina. The technology agreements between Leaf/Sinar and Jenoptik are likely just for the proprietary pin out information and data coming from the camera body. Actually slightly humorous as Hasselblad initially had licensing agreements with other back manufacturers that were balked at as they upgraded their platform. No one was very keen about having to pay another manufacturer for the right to attach their back to a camera.
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hands on report with the Hy6:
here (http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00IErf&tag=)
this should answer most questions....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78687\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Many thanks.
I hope this isn't how it will be.
I hope so too.
Maybe we have some answers to our questions soon.
A really open platform must be based on open-to-all specifications.
The closed model of Hasselblad, Pentax and Mamiya can work for them. I only points to the possibility of a different offer for those who want to or like to have choices: the lens, the body and the back. Any combination should be possible: Schneider lens/Rollei body/Sinar back; or Zeiss lens/Leaf body/Phase One back.
The Hy6 is an unique opportunity for a real open platform for MF, but the proponents have not marketed the Hy6 in this way at Photokina.
I think people will prefer Hasselblad, Mamiya or Pentax to Leaf or Sinar, small brands which will not resist the pressure in the long run if they play separately (I am not sure about Mamiya or Pentax either).
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Please understand that there is a large population of photographers who do not want to use DXO-type software as a separate step in post-processing to correct for lens aberrations, and would love to have the corrections applied automatically in camera. Post-processing of raw files is completely unappealing to me. I would prefer to spend my time taking photographs and making prints.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78649\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sure, that is true but I think should not be a reason to rule external post processing out. Other people would not mind and when it is optional you have the choice now haven't you?
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am i missing something here? how can anyone expect the Hy6 to accept ALL backs all of a sudden? we all know that every back has different connections and different software! rollei can't change that! they can offer different manufacturers to build bodies to fit their backs and they can sell bodies with adapters for different backs...same as before and just like any other company like mamiya, contax and hasselblad (up to now...) in which ways can they be more open?
this is the most open platform i have ever seen in photography and people are still complaining? this is crazy!
i am assuming that the leaf Hy6 will pretty much be free with the Aptus 75s, the sinar with the emotion75.....if you want to switch backs, just get the rollei version and the adapters and buy an aptus, a phase and a sinar...no problem...
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Please let me explain why myself and I expect at least a few others are disappointed with Hasselblad's decision. As a purchaser of one of the earliest H1 systems with all of its available lenses I endured the last couple of years of constantly sending my camera body and lenses back to Hasselblad to get "reprogrammed" as they corrected and stabilized their new product line. There was a time when they had the system in NJ more than I had it. I tolerated the fact that they essentially abandoned my 203FE and 205FCC with their expensive lenses because this is what happens with displacement technologies (and they still take great film pictures). My commitment (and investment which essentially to some extent funded the development) seemed a wise decision when several companies started a falter and drop out of the market. It looked even better when they announced the CFV back (which I now own) and support for DNG files ... so I was willing to put up with once again sending my H1 back to become and H2. Now suddenly there is no support for DNG without going through a software cluge, my H2 and potentially the lenses may not be compatible with the "future" (although it the front elements are going to fall off, maybe that's a good thing). Combine this with the "full frame" hype and you will understand that my patience ( and I expect others) is wearing thin. Compare this with Phase One's admission that no new sensors would be available for at least a year so they decided to freshen the product and admittedly make incrimental (but solid improvements) ... and you'll understand why the new back for my H2 is more likely to be a Phase than an Imacon.
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Hallo all,
After reading Michaels report on the H3D and Photokina I thought I had better sign up and make a reply as this new development is very interesting.
I spent a couple of busy days at Photokina and certainly the Hasselblad booth was one of the most striking! They even had grass for the flooring!
Anyway, onto more important things...
Michael - I was a little dissapointed with your report on the H3D. I am slightly biased as I own an H2D since July, and after a few teething problems it has really helped me with a new start into photography. I had suffered a serious RTA so this is my first investment in getting back into my working life. Of course this cost me a lot of money when I don't have much right now so to see an H3D so soon I was a bit worried I had made a bad decision!
First of all I think your reort is pretty innacurate too Michael! Where did you get the name H3D Pro from? I can't see that on any of the marketing material? Surely as a journalist you have a responsibility to report the facts?
And lets not get confused - like the H2D the H3D is a completely integrated camera... You say in your report 'I must buy [an H3D] along with either a 22MP or 39MP Hasselblad digital back'
Errr... Its an integrated camera! So you buy it lock stock and barrell as a body / unit combo. You complain later on about the term DSLR used for the H3D. Why? It is an SLR, no? And it is digital? It does not have interchangeable digital backs as you say again - it can use film backs which is good for me as I am sometimes in environmental conditions where I would not want to risk my digital equipment.
The rest of your article then pretty much paints a bad picture of Hasselblad as shutting out the competition. Are we all forgetting the H2?????
Its a simple choice if you want to use Phase, Leaf etc... then go ahead with an H2 Purchase and off you go!! I went the H2D route as I only have to lug one battery system around as it is powered by the hand grip (body and back) and the lens correciton part is interesting.
Speaking of lenses I guess I was a bit worried this new 28mm was a closed lens. I spoke to some of the guys on the H stand and the reason the 28mm is closed is as it was only possible to design this lens in conjunction with the lens correction software now in the H3D / H2D. Otherwise to build a lens with the same performance without the lens correction would have made it bulky and prohibitivly more expensive.
Is this not obvious as this is the first 28mm lens we have seen on any medium format body from any manufacturer???
Yes, I know there was this argument between a couple of users that DXO or other software could correct this. Well, as a photographer the more software packages I have the more time I am sitting in front of my mac pushing pixels. I think the point behind the H3D lens corrections is that is is fully automated and therefore time saving.
Plus is DXO or any other package work with H lenses? I have tried to correct the distortion of a an H35mm in Photoshop and it can't be done! The distortion is has is a little irregular so I am keen to see if Hasselblads own corrections does the job! The people on stand said they have been mapping all the lenses for quite some time now. Every time the H3D makes a capture the Aperture, focal length and subject distance are written into the image file as they are all necesary to correct the distortion and Chromatic Abberation correctly.
As for the rest of your article Michael you are really missing the point. Did you not see the digital back area on the stand with cameras from Rollei, Mamiya etc etc... all working with Hasselblad backs? This doesn't look like shutting out the competition to me!
As I said earlier the H2 is still there and a working platform for other manufactuers. If I where Hasselblad or a CEO of any other company I too would be looking at ways to strengthen my position. It is only natural for them to want to succeed it what could be a dying market. Would everybody prefer to see Hasselblad go out of business? It still amuses me to read the Imacon name on this forum - that was two years ago guys - they don't even exist as a company anymore. If it wasn't for this intelligent merger than I think you could have kissed Hasselblad goodbye by now. They certainly were not financially strong then but by the look of their stand at Photokina I think the turn around is dramatic.
I asked Hasselblad if they where discontinuing the H2 as a platform and I was just laughed at. It is easy to forget that we are not all digital users. One of the guys said that a lot of H1/2 cameras are still being used as film cameras - especially in Asia and the less developed countries so it wouldn't make economic sense. It was also pointed out to me that there even if you are a Phase or Leaf user on an H platform you still need H lenses! The guy told me they ship about 1000 lenses a month now and that is big bucks as us users know they are not cheap!
I also saw the new Hasselblad Image Bank working which looked very nifty. I can connect this to my H2D and have just under 2000 captures! I am not a fan of CF cards so this looke like a real alternative.
The 28mm lens, new viewfinder, integrated power, versatility of the H3D - it can work on a view camera (if I had one! ), and the Image Bank are all good things for photographers so why are we all so upset? I would be upset but for one thing...
My H2D gets an automatic free upgrade to an H3D, so how is that for service?
Finally on the stand there was a group from LA who carry out a digital lab service. They had this monster X-Serve / X-Grid which could burn through raw files at an alarming rate as they where handling all the files from the stand. Not really applicable to me but for the volume shooters it looked amazing! www.digitalfusion.net.
All the best,
Jo
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I'm afraid that just about evey point in your rambling post has been addressed in other emails on this forum, so I can't take to time to restate what has already be written. A few points though...
"H3D Pro" was a typo. Sorry. I was also writing about the Fuji S5 Pro at the time.
"like the H2D the H3D is a completely integrated camera" I have no idea what this means. A Mamiya ZD is an intergrated camera. An H1, H2 or H3 is a modular camera, since the prism, and especially the back is removable. Let's not play with sematics, which is what I'm complaining Hasselblad is doing with terms like "48MM Full Frame", which is simply a new label on old wine.
As for the continuing existance of the H2, we'll see. I was told by a Hasselblad booth rep that the H2 would be discontinued shortly. Several others including some Hasselblad dealers were each told this as well. (In case anyone doubts this, I have a record of it on video). Poulsen, the CEO, when asked about this stated that they would continue producing H2s as long as there was demand, contradicting what the booth personel were saying. Of course as CEO he has the final say, but it did seem like backpeddling on a position which all the people in the Hasselbald booth were putting forward for two days, prior to the press conference. They obviously didn't each make it up, now did they? Time will tell.
"the reason the 28mm is closed is as it was only possible to design this lens in conjunction with the lens correction software now in the H3D / H2D." Yup, that's the case and also the point. They have decided to not license other back makers. This is about business practices, not technology. Please reread my essay if that isn't clear. Most people get it.
Just in case you think that I am a lone voice crying in the wilderness, be aware that within the industry itself there is a huge hubbub about this. I am in touch with a number of dealers as well as other journalists, and almost no one is happy, or thinks that this will end well for Hasselblad.
You may think that this is a good move on the part of Hasselbald, but I can ssure you that most knowledgeable observers and industry participants see this as a case of Hasselbald shooting themselves in the foot – big time.
Michael
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It does not have interchangeable digital backs as you say again - it can use film backs which is good for me as I am sometimes in environmental conditions where I would not want to risk my digital equipment.
Are you sure that the H3D can use film backs? Can you provide a source for this? I thought this was the first camera for the 'new' 48mm format, which means that it's not good for film any more.
The rest of your article then pretty much paints a bad picture of Hasselblad as shutting out the competition. Are we all forgetting the H2?????
Hasselblad did announce that the H2 was to be dropped, so yes we are forgetting the H2
Its a simple choice if you want to use Phase, Leaf etc... then go ahead with an H2 Purchase and off you go!!
...and buy an obsolete model which will probably never have additional lenses, WLF, etc
Speaking of lenses I guess I was a bit worried this new 28mm was a closed lens. I spoke to some of the guys on the H stand and the reason the 28mm is closed is as it was only possible to design this lens in conjunction with the lens correction software now in the H3D / H2D.
I they chose to use lens correction to keep the price down, fair enough. However that could just as easily be done WITHOUT making it a closed system. I bet most of the existing H1/2 owners would like the choice rather than being shut out. Automation for those who spent the extra money, manual correction for those who didn't.
It still amuses me to read the Imacon name on this forum - that was two years ago guys - they don't even exist as a company anymore.
Wrong, Imacon AS (Denmark) still exists.
If it wasn't for this intelligent merger than I think you could have kissed Hasselblad goodbye by now.
I used and loved the V system, but wouldn't miss the H system. I don't want to see Hasselblad go out of business. Choice and competition are good. On the other hand, if just one medium format camera were to survive, there are other cameras I would pick first.
The 28mm lens, new viewfinder, integrated power, versatility of the H3D - it can work on a view camera (if I had one! ),
How can the 28mm work on a view camera? It requires correction and in order to perform the correction it needs the focal distance which is not possible witha view camera. On top of that the image circle isn't large enough for movements sothere is no point. Much better to stick to Schneider ot Rodenstock lenses on a view camera.
My H2D gets an automatic free upgrade to an H3D, so how is that for service?
Nice indeed! Not all bad then
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The rest of your article then pretty much paints a bad picture of Hasselblad as shutting out the competition. Are we all forgetting the H2?????
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78865\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Jo,
As a regular Hassy customer without agenda, I can tell you that I am really unhappy about their move.
- Why would I welcome the news that future Hassy lenses will not be usable on my 3 years old 6000 US$ body?
- Why would I welcome the news that my H1 has no future as a platform for digital backs?
With all due respect, I have a really hard time understanding your positions.
Cheers,
Bernard
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My H2D gets an automatic free upgrade to an H3D, so how is that for service?
is this for real?
I want my upgrade now!
Who told you?
marc
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In a small market space in need of consolidation the Hasselblad moves were anticipated from day one in this corner. They have every right to leverage their platform in a tight market with too many players. Hasselblad's decisions and strategies aren't an end all and in fact have spurred the market into reaction with new entries into the medium format camera platforms. If the Hasselblad/Imacon merger had never come to be would there be any entry by Franke & Heidecke into a new medium format platform without the speculation of some Hasselblad doors being closed? Would Mamiya be looking into bolstering their platform with potential new lenses (leaf shutter?) and perhaps a new incarnation of the 645AFD?
As I see things the Hasselblad moves could result in a couple of tracks for the medium format digital market place. First, integrated systems not unlike those from Canon or Nikon with the back manufacturers seeking refuge with a medium format camera maker. With three chairs for the back manufacturers to jump in someone's left standing in a game of musical chairs as the other players scramble for the seats provided by Mamiya, Hasselblad and F&H. With Hasselblad's seat already glued, the competition for the remaining seats is heightened. The second track is by continued innovation and enhancements by the other back manufacturers making their products more important than what it's attached to, leaving Hasselblad with a market position that can be easily remedied by reopening their platform.
While Hasselblad's maneuvering will certainly draw the ire of a few, in a market that was seeing medium format platforms drop like flies with the demise of Contax, Bronica and Fuji's entries, we are suddenly seeing some innovative products and talks of more to come in the future. With the 35mm DSLR formats pushing the limits of their platform this is certainly welcome and we will have more innovative medium format options to choose from a year from now with perhaps one less back line to attach to them. It's just temporary battle lines drawn in the sand with gusting winds and in the end some consolidation and more robust products will prove to be positive.
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I'm afraid that just about evey point in your rambling post has been addressed in other emails on this forum, so I can't take to time to restate what has already be written. A few points though...
"H3D Pro" was a typo. Sorry. I was also writing about the Fuji S5 Pro at the time.
"like the H2D the H3D is a completely integrated camera" I have no idea what this means. A Mamiya ZD is an intergrated camera. An H1, H2 or H3 is a modular camera, since the prism, and especially the back is removable. Let's not play with sematics, which is what I'm complaining Hasselblad is doing with terms like "48MM Full Frame", which is simply a new label on old wine.
As for the continuing existance of the H2, we'll see. I was told by a Hasselblad booth rep that the H2 would be discontinued shortly. Several others including some Hasselblad dealers were each told this as well. (In case anyone doubts this, I have a record of it on video). Poulsen, the CEO, when asked about this stated that they would continue producing H2s as long as there was demand, contradicting what the booth personel were saying. Of course as CEO he has the final say, but it did seem like backpeddling on a position which all the people in the Hasselbald booth were putting forward for two days, prior to the press conference. They obviously didn't each make it up, now did they? Time will tell.
"the reason the 28mm is closed is as it was only possible to design this lens in conjunction with the lens correction software now in the H3D / H2D." Yup, that's the case and also the point. They have decided to not license other back makers. This is about business practices, not technology. Please reread my essay if that isn't clear. Most people get it.
Just in case you think that I am a lone voice crying in the wilderness, be aware that within the industry itself there is a huge hubbub about this. I am in touch with a number of dealers as well as other journalists, and almost no one is happy, or thinks that this will end well for Hasselblad.
You may think that this is a good move on the part of Hasselbald, but I can ssure you that most knowledgeable observers and industry participants see this as a case of Hasselbald shooting themselves in the foot – big time.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78879\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Michael:
Debating the term "integrated" is certainly playing with semantics. You might wish to consider a product with a removable prism "not integrated" (as if that was a negative). By far the most compelling aspect of "integration" is optimal communication between camera, lens and sensor. That's a big part of what makes Canon so effective. From Hasselblad's perspective, image quality is enhanced by this communication. Hasselblad also feels that medium format solutions must show a greater value/image quality equation to working photographers for them to justify spending their money on medium format instead of with 35mm. For their purposes, this is a path to that objective.
Hasselblad could have saved themselves a lot of grief if they would have called the H3D "The first digital system with a 48mm, full-frame viewinder. That's what it is, and that is a benefit. They blew that.
The H2 may at some point be discontinued. But for now, it is not. 12 months ago, Christian Poulsen himself hinted that the V-series days were numbered, but that was dependent on unit sales. The same holds true for the H2. Could Hasselblad discontinue H2 production only to stifle digital back competition? Possibly, but they have made no official announcement stating so. Dealers and reps often have less than 100% information regarding new announcements, and fill in what they don't know with projections and opinion. It would be in Hasselblad's and their customers best interest to issue a statement regarding H2 production so that users who prefer an H2 system could choose whether or not to utilize that platform for film capture or with Leaf, Phase or Sinar digital backs.
As far as I know, the 28mm will not work with an H2D. I believe there are some physical limitations to using the 28mm with the H2 body - I could be wrong. But to your point, regarding the 28mm, are you saying that Hasselblad "decided not to license" other back makers for the distortion correction technology? And you're penalizing Hasselblad for that? You're penalizing them for that business practise? Can you show me how it makes business sense to develop technology to enhance the products of it's direct competitors?
I believe most of the hubbub from users and dealers alike comes from these negative buzzwords - "closed system" "fullframe (not)". Canon's a closed system, much more closed than Hasselblad. Capture One software is a closed system. Yes, it works for 35mm, no it doesn't work for it's direct competitors (Leaf, Sinar, Hasselblad). In contrast, Raw Developer by Iridient Systems, provides raw conversion software for all the medium format players. Why? Because they're not it's competitors.
Look, I love photography. I love working with photographers. I'm sure Hasselblad does too. But it doesn't do any of my customers any good if I'm not in business. These days, medium format is a very tough market. Bronica, Fuji, Contax - all gone. Sinar (Leica?), Rollei, Leaf, Phase One, Mamiya, Hasselblad - hanging on. For how long? This is a business move and a technology move. If it keeps Hasselblad in business, I have no problem with that. You may not like Hasselblad's choices, but at least by them making the choices they need to make to stay in business, it also gives you choices - and when it comes to gear, that is critical.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
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Are you sure that the H3D can use film backs? Can you provide a source for this?[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=78881\")
See Hasselblad's page on the H3D, [a href=\"http://hasselblad.com/products/h-system/h3d.aspx]http://hasselblad.com/products/h-system/h3d.aspx[/url]
under the section on "Four modes ..."
Also note the two viewfinder options:
HVD90X covering the 36x48mm frame format for digital use,
HV90X covering the 42.5x56mm frame formatr for 645 format film use.
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The second track is by continued innovation and enhancements by the other back manufacturers making their products more important than what it's attached to, leaving Hasselblad with a market position that can be easily remedied by reopening their platform.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78892\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well you could aruge that Hasselblad is very scarred by Leaf/Phase and Jenoptic(Sinar). Why, as their backs all have one up on the Hasselblad backs. hasselblad will not even give a unit of any kind to Michael, as I suspect they know its shortcomings will be highlighted against the other backs. Look what Phase has accomplished with the same sensors as hasselblad. Can the H3D do 5 hour exposures.... what about a clean iso 800 (P45+)?
Lets take Leaf... can the 39MP unit shoot at the same speed as the A75S to a CF card (1.1 sec/frame) ? I think Not.
What extra features to Hasselblad backs have ? Do they have built in fast RAM like the eMotion backs, which some say also have the best softwate/colour out there ?
NO. I tell you what "features" they have - since they haven't essentially changed from the DCC citcuits in the DAC in 4 years, the feature of being able to use them with the newer much needed Hassleblad (H3D) and by implication much desired 28mm lens.
Now we can put your:
"making their products more important than what it's attached to"
into perpective.
Just a thought
Ed
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"Can you show me how it makes business sense to develop technology to enhance the products of it's direct competitors?"
Yes, I can actually.
By allowing the thousands (yes thousands) of photographers who have H1 and H2 bodies and who are currently using non-Hasselblad backs to not be not frozen out of an upgrade path for new Hasselblad bodies and lenses. To alienate and discard these customers seems like folly to me.
Why would I want to get rid of a perfectly good $30,000 back so as to be able to have access to a new Hasselblad lens or viewfinder, when I know that the key to that lens is just software and an API?
If I'm going to have to spend that much money all over again, my options may well not include Hasselblad – and that's why it makes good buisness sense for them not to shaft their current customer base. The marketplace for these products is too small for any company to be able to afford to alienate such a large segment of it. And that's what Hasselblad appears to be doing with its new policy.
Michael
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Are you sure that the H3D can use film backs? Can you provide a source for this? I thought this was the first camera for the 'new' 48mm format, which means that it's not good for film any more.
Yes. Check the web - it has lots of information you know.
Hasselblad did announce that the H2 was to be dropped, so yes we are forgetting the H2
This is not the case. CEO Poulsen say it will stay for as long as there is demand.
...and buy an obsolete model which will probably never have additional lenses, WLF, etc
The Waste level finder is compatible with both the H1 and H2. It is mechanical with no electronics.
I they chose to use lens correction to keep the price down, fair enough.
I beleive that is the case.
Wrong, Imacon AS (Denmark) still exists.
Errr... no it doesn't.
How can the 28mm work on a view camera? It requires correction and in order to perform the correction it needs the focal distance which is not possible witha view camera. On top of that the image circle isn't large enough for movements sothere is no point. Much better to stick to Schneider ot Rodenstock lenses on a view camera.
You misunderstand - the Digital unit on the H3D can be removed and put on a view camera. I was not referring to the lens.
Jo.
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I'm afraid that just about evey point in your rambling post has been addressed in other emails on this forum, so I can't take to time to restate what has already be written. A few points though...
Pot calling the kettle black, eh?
"like the H2D the H3D is a completely integrated camera" I have no idea what this means. A Mamiya ZD is an intergrated camera. An H1, H2 or H3 is a modular camera, since the prism, and especially the back is removable. Let's not play with sematics, which is what I'm complaining Hasselblad is doing with terms like "48MM Full Frame", which is simply a new label on old wine.
Integrated as it is sold as one unit. Integrated as they have one on/off button. Integrated as it uses one battery. Integrated as it is built by the same manufacturer. Integrated due to the communication between lens and body. Shall I go on...?
As for the continuing existance of the H2, we'll see. I was told by a Hasselblad booth rep that the H2 would be discontinued shortly. Several others including some Hasselblad dealers were each told this as well. (In case anyone doubts this, I have a record of it on video). Poulsen, the CEO, when asked about this stated that they would continue producing H2s as long as there was demand, contradicting what the booth personel were saying. Of course as CEO he has the final say, but it did seem like backpeddling on a position which all the people in the Hasselbald booth were putting forward for two days, prior to the press conference. They obviously didn't each make it up, now did they? Time will tell.
I think Michael they are referring to the H2D - the previous integrated camera.
"the reason the 28mm is closed is as it was only possible to design this lens in conjunction with the lens correction software now in the H3D / H2D." Yup, that's the case and also the point. They have decided to not license other back makers. This is about business practices, not technology. Please reread my essay if that isn't clear. Most people get it.
I shall remain one of the other people then. If they have spent a bunch of R&D money mapping lenses and figuring out how to correct for distortion and CA - why oh why would you hand that on a plate to Phase One and leaf?
Just in case you think that I am a lone voice crying in the wilderness, be aware that within the industry itself there is a huge hubbub about this. I am in touch with a number of dealers as well as other journalists, and almost no one is happy, or thinks that this will end well for Hasselblad.
Why is my dealer happy then?
Jo S.
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"They have decided to not license other back makers. This is about business practices, not technology. Please reread my essay if that isn't clear. Most people get it."
Michael,
I'm not sure that if Jo disagrees with your point of view, it follows that she hasn't understood it.......
Isn't any digital back user who needs a decent flash sync speed, and needs fastish lenses on a reflex camera with nice viewfinders, in fact already "stuck with" the Hasselblad H, at a pinch the V, or the old (soon to be discontinued) Rollei 6008 AF? Or the promised mixed identity Sinar/Leaf/Rollei, which as Izaack points out is untested, untested....... and doesn't offer anything wider than a 40, for those that need it?
The problem with these digital back systems is that they are hybrid contraptions, prone to incompatibilities. Hasselblad is trying to confront this fundamental design problem.
My hope and expectation is that Hasselblad, rather than trying to greedily force market share, (as if they could!) are going to achieve that end by ironing out all these problems and designing a versatile camera system that works reliably as advertised for the professional user.
As we've seen from countless posts on the subject there are colour cast problems with different lens/sensor combinations. The strategy of getting the lens to talk to the back and to sort these things out in camera firmware is a big step forward (if it works.) Who really wants to spend their working lives battling with this in front of a computer? Denis M has pointed out that the H3D has a slow capture rate of 35 pictures per minute- but isn't it actually doing something for you for you in that time, something that you will not have to do later yourself- the lens correction processing? A compromise, not perfect for all users, but on the way there.
Is it any coincidence that another great camera company is also pursuing the "lens talks to camera firmware" strategy with the Leica M8?
When you have to look these things in the teeth to find if they are going to work for you, it gets to be a complicated judgement. If I could go back in time, and with what I know now, I would have chosen Hasselblad and Leica as film camera systems (I still use Leicas and a Mamiya RZ).
My prediction is that Hasselblad's camera/ back integration is not only the best way to go but will also in time be copied by others. Are there not rumours of a Phase/Mamiya link up? If a change is underway that would be very good news for us customers.
Andrew Parker
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ATT: josayeruk
Why is my dealer happy then?
Perhaps you share the same opinion, that’s all. However, you could be wrong or you could be right, either way Michael makes loads of sense whether few like it or not.
Regards
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what i don't understand is why would anyone want to buy the H3D? the only reason would be to have a one in all solution that provides fast shooting, and the best quality...now that wold be a reason...but we know that it simply does not...it is actually the slowest shooting MF digital and the color problem, if taken care of still puts in at least as good as the others, but not better...i have never heard anyone argue that the hasselblad backs are better then all the others...people say: they are as good now,..they worked the problems out now...but never, yes they are better....
i tested the H2D because i liked the all in one concept and i could have gotten a great price on it...the files simply were not as good as either leaf, phase or sinar! this might be my personal opinion, but many share this opinon and nobody says that they are better....so where is the advantage?
the H3D comes in 2 flavors, both with stats competing with last years leaf and phase models! sinar already had the faster shooting, built in buffer and great disply....the digital part of the H3D has no improvement at all! phase got a better display, faster shooting and higher asa, leaf got even faster shooting and higher asa, both got live preview...both also have a much wider product line to choose from...and both are (arguably) as good if not better then the H3D...so what is the argument to go with the H3D?
btw: mamiya now has a 28mm as well...no software necessary....
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http://hasselblad.com/media/57304/h3d%20datasheet.pdf (http://hasselblad.com/media/57304/h3d%20datasheet.pdf)
Page 5 will show you the diagram, that indeed H3D can be hookeup to Film back or even a poloroid back. (like suggested earlier that Asian market still shoots film).
I think Hasselblad is unneccessarily put down in this forum.
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I for one wish that the H2 stays in production and that Hasselblad come up with a clear statement through their dealers about it.
You can call it selfishness as I would like our current users to still be able to purchase this system, but also for Hasselblad it gives an opportunity to, at some point, convert these users to the CFH backs or whatever comes next.
There are 3 things that are still very annoying with the spec of the H3D:
"48mm full frame" - The Kodak sensor, being 49mm, is now capturing more than what the new (masked) focusing screen is showing, so where are the extra pixels going?
The HVD90X prism is essentially the same as the HV90X with the meter tuned to ignore the Black masking on the focusing screen.
The new viewfinder should have had a bit more thought and money put into it, to allow at least for some of the available info (frame count, focusing, battey status...) to be viewed through...
There's ONE good feature that is noticable so far, and that is the extra sync socket that allows the back to be used on a view camera (what is then going to hapen with the APO info is another question though...)
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If I'm going to have to spend that much money all over again, my options may well not include Hasselblad – and that's why it makes good buisness sense for them not to shaft their current customer base. The marketplace for these products is too small for any company to be able to afford to alienate such a large segment of it. And that's what Hasselblad appears to be doing with its new policy.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78925\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think Michael has just summed up this entire thread and as a H1 user I'm "on his side", but then there only is "his side" when this ends up damaging Hasselblad (as it will), which will be a Pyric Victory. The software lens correstion is a "fudge" which insults all our intelligence. Any reason why the new Hy6 can't be in a H-mount version and therefore poach all the disillusioned H1/H2 owners ? THAT Would be a coup de force?!
Anyway, I'm fed up with this discussion now.. especially as it seems to just consists of people taking a swipe at one another... with reasonable people wasting time with the unreasonable people. Obviously I'l like to put myself in the reasonalbe group with MR !
Ed
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Imacon still exists
Errr... no it doesn't.
Just FYI: the Commercial registry in Denmark (Erhvervs- og Selskabsstyrelsen) lists Imacon Inc USA as active:
http://www.cvr.dk/Site/Forms/PublicService...?cvrnr=21994987 (http://www.cvr.dk/Site/Forms/PublicService/DisplayCompany.aspx?cvrnr=21994987)
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"48mm full frame" - The Kodak sensor, being 49mm, is now capturing more than what the new (masked) focusing screen is showing, so where are the extra pixels going?
...
The HVD90X prism is essentially the same as the HV90X with the meter tuned to ignore the Black masking on the focusing screen.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78946\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I suspect that Hasleblad is just using "36x48mm" as nice round numbers (nicer than "36.7x49mm")and is not saying that this is exactly the FOV covered by the VF. Similarly, "645" is not 6x4.5cm, but only 56x42.5mm. And 6x7 is not even 6:7 shaped; it is 4:5 shaped.
The HVD90X is not just a masked version of the 645 format HV90X; the "D" version has higher magnification, so that it gives the same sized image of the slightly smaller frame.
But you have a good point that by ignoring light from outside the "48mm format" frame the "D" VF should give better metering accuracy than earlier 645 format bodies used with sub-645 format sensors.
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The software lens correstion is a "fudge" which insults all our intelligence.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78953\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Why do you say that Ed? It was working really nicely on the H3D at Photokina. Have you seen it working?
Instantly corrected the distortion on the 28 and 35. Plus I saw the effect of having the Chromatic Abberation turned on compared to disabled.
Jo.
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This is not the case. CEO Poulsen say it will stay for as long as there is demand.
He actually contradicted that himself, so it will be interesting to see what they decide to do.
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My H2D gets an automatic free upgrade to an H3D, so how is that for service?
is this for real?
I want my upgrade now!
Who told you?
marc
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78888\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi Marc,
I think so! It might depend on how old your H2D is, but considering the H3D is €1000 more (I think?) then it could be a charge like this.
Go ask your dealer I guess.
Jo.
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You misunderstand - the Digital unit on the H3D can be removed and put on a view camera. I was not referring to the lens.
Ah, ok. That sounds perfectly plausible.
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Jo,
As a regular Hassy customer without agenda, I can tell you that I am really unhappy about their move.
- Why would I welcome the news that future Hassy lenses will not be usable on my 3 years old 6000 US$ body?
- Why would I welcome the news that my H1 has no future as a platform for digital backs?
With all due respect, I have a really hard time understanding your positions.
Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78884\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi Bernard,
I had an old H1 body which I didn't need when I got the H2D. I got it upgraded to an H2 for less than €400.. or something like that... and keep it for backup with film.
I don't think you need to think of your H1 as having no future as my dealer gave me a whole load of upgrade options before I went for the H2D. Maybe go and have a chat with them to settle your mind?
Jo.
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If they have spent a bunch of R&D money mapping lenses and figuring out how to correct for distortion and CA - why oh why would you hand that on a plate to Phase One and leaf?
To help them sell their lenses. This info could only be of possible value to owners of the Hasselblad lens. Making the correction data openly available would only make the lens more attractive to users of H1/2 with non-Hass backs.
Maybe Hass could sell the correction module as a plug-in. In fact this would be a great way for all companies to go.
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Or the promised mixed identity Sinar/Leaf/Rollei, which as Izaack points out is untested, untested.......
Why are the Hasselblad proponents calling the Hy6 untested but arguing in favour of the H3D? I assume you mean tested by the buying public? The Hy6 is an evolution of the 6008 which has been around a lot longer than the Hasselblad H system. Furthermore the H3D is also not 'tested' by the public either. The H1/2 cameras seem to have more than their fair share of glitches.
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Denis M has pointed out that the H3D has a slow capture rate of 35 pictures per minute- but isn't it actually doing something for you for you in that time, something that you will not have to do later yourself- the lens correction processing?
I believe that is how slow they were BEFORE lens correction.
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It was working really nicely on the H3D at Photokina. Have you seen it working?
Instantly corrected the distortion on the 28 and 35. Plus I saw the effect of having the Chromatic Abberation turned on compared to disabled
Jo, are you saying that you can switch DAC on or off at the camera/RAW processor stage? Or was this a specially set up demo and not something a photographer could do in real life?
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what i don't understand is why would anyone want to buy the H3D? the only reason would be to have a one in all solution that provides fast shooting, and the best quality...now that wold be a reason...but we know that it simply does not...it is actually the slowest shooting MF digital and the color problem, if taken care of still puts in at least as good as the others, but not better...i have never heard anyone argue that the hasselblad backs are better then all the others...people say: they are as good now,..they worked the problems out now...but never, yes they are better....
i tested the H2D because i liked the all in one concept and i could have gotten a great price on it...the files simply were not as good as either leaf, phase or sinar! this might be my personal opinion, but many share this opinon and nobody says that they are better....so where is the advantage?
the H3D comes in 2 flavors, both with stats competing with last years leaf and phase models! sinar already had the faster shooting, built in buffer and great disply....the digital part of the H3D has no improvement at all! phase got a better display, faster shooting and higher asa, leaf got even faster shooting and higher asa, both got live preview...both also have a much wider product line to choose from...and both are (arguably) as good if not better then the H3D...so what is the argument to go with the H3D?
btw: mamiya now has a 28mm as well...no software necessary....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78943\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Here a few reasons. One, Hasselblad will apparently come out with a T/S lens that will only work with the H3D, and presumably provide for in-camera software to optimize the optical performance of the lens. This is a "killer app", in software industry speak, and I understand the frustration and anger of those like Michael that bought into the H system thinking that they would get access to such a lens even if they used a Phase or Leaf back on their H1 or H2. Where else am I going to go for it?
Two, I want a camera/digital back that "talk" to each other and make the workflow as easy as possible to get a processed image that is at least the equal of a sheet of say Astia that I get back from E-6 lab(i.e., it looks really good without the need to spend X minutes on each image in post-processing).
Third, I want to know that my camera system has a solvent company behind it that is committed to updating and expanding the system that provides a long-term "Home" for my digital back. Again, Michael thought he was getting this as well by switching out of his Contax system to H system bodies and lenses quite recently.
Mamiya does not do it for me. Their misstarts on the digital front indicate to me that they are clueless. They MAY merge with Phase, but who knows. As for Rollei, Sinar and Leaf for a camera system, no thanks. I am not gambling a $50 k investment on any of them. If you are in say Zion National Park taking photographs and your camera/back fails, who would you want to call for a quick replacement, Rollei or Hasselblad?
Of course, if the files and workflow with the H3D were not "as good" as Phase and Leaf, then the decision becomes VERY cloudy, and perhaps that is the case. I don't have the answers yet.
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Jo, are you saying that you can switch DAC on or off at the camera/RAW processor stage? Or was this a specially set up demo and not something a photographer could do in real life?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78974\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
What I saw in the Hasselblad software is that you could choose to apply / unapply the corrections in the same box as where the USM settings are. So yes, at the processing stage.
So, if you click the Box for Distortion, then you see the image 'pop' on screen as the corrections are appllied... If that makes sense!
Jo.
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I believe that is how slow they were BEFORE lens correction.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78971\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
On the stage in the Hasselblad stand I watched a fashion demonstration. The photographer seemed to be shooting at lot faster than I could manage on my H2D. I asked him at the end how he was doing it and it seems they where using a yet to be released software which had improved the FireWire 800 connection and made some other changes... he didn't know what exactly except to say that it was much faster.
He gave me the camera and I shot continuously at I guess around 1.5 frames a second connected to a computer for at least a minute.
Jo.
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I don't have the answers yet.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78976\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think that's the best single line from a post yet on this thread. Much of what we're debating is based to a degree on conjecture, and Hasselblad has to take some blame on that for not being clear regarding certain issues - like H2 production, full-frame, etc.
I believe one thing is clear. No camera company can survive by making film bodies for digital backs to go on. That has been proven. Fuji, Bronica, Contax, M...a...m...i...y...a, R...o...l...l...e...i... - all gone or heading that way.
So while Hasselblad might have made the effort to enhance the quality of capture for a Leaf or Phase One user, that strategy would serve no purpose other than to contribute to it's ultimate demise.
Lens sales will not keep Hasselblad in business. The most profitable component of their solution is the digital component. They do not benefit by enhancing the image quality of their competitors and gaining lens sales.
The H1/H2 user is potentially at a system dead-end. And that's a huge bummer if it turns out ot be the case. But that is the state of medium format today. It's a tough business in a small and very competitive market. More will drop out - that's for sure.
The key to Hasselblad's future is integrated digital cameras, and the successful implementation of those solutions. If they really work, and really make a difference, Hasselblad has a chance.
The key to the future of Leaf and Phase One and Sinar is also integrated digital cameras. They're heading that way now, and it will be challenge.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
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Well you could aruge that Hasselblad is very scarred by Leaf/Phase and Jenoptic(Sinar). Why, as their backs all have one up on the Hasselblad backs. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78915\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ed, I can't disagree with much of anything you stated and certainly the back manufacturers look for places where their competitors aren't to gain a marketing advantage. It's clear there is some fear running through the market and consolidation is certainly around the corner when the players make potentially volatile moves, deals or alliances. The market simply isn't large enough to support all the bright minds engineering the plethora of products available, the talented sales and marketing people who put them on the street and all the other work that goes on behind the scenes.
If Hasselblad is running scared, perhaps they are the smart ones. I don't see anyone with a decided market advantage that allows them to sit on their hands nor do I see a feature set that makes a single manufacturer a runaway success. I don't see a market big enough to allow 4 players to truly be successful nor a player powerful enough to strike a knockout blow. In the end the fight for survival will leave us with better products and I honestly shrug my shoulders at the perceived skullduggery. It's just business as usual in a competitive market and if you didn't see this coming you weren't paying attention.
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Hi Bernard,
I had an old H1 body which I didn't need when I got the H2D. I got it upgraded to an H2 for less than €400.. or something like that... and keep it for backup with film.
I don't think you need to think of your H1 as having no future as my dealer gave me a whole load of upgrade options before I went for the H2D. Maybe go and have a chat with them to settle your mind?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78966\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Jo,
It won't cut it. Even if I upgrade to a H2, I would probably not upgrade to a H2D since most reports seem to indicate that the Imacon sensor is behind its Leaf and Phase competitors.
I would therefore not be able to use future Hassy lenses...
If the current directions is confirmed, I'll be selling all my Hassy gear soon, and will not come back. The Mamiya platform, including their new 28 mm, is probably where I am going to put my money for now. Hassy H lenses have been way overpriced anyway. It is tempting to invest in an expensive "perfect" system, but H has become a lot less perfect as a system since the recent announcements...
Cheers,
Bernard
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Well that was a bit of a rant by a Hassy guy. I don't think Michael would sit there with his pants down showing the world his willy if he didn't have some proof to back it up. The only error was calling it the pro.
I loved Hasselblad and my three different Imacons were amazinng! I still have a PIII that ROCKS! My Fuji GA 645's and GX617's were stunning. Made me a lot of money and some spectacular images. So when these three companies merged or started working together, I was not disappointed. I was thrown off the RG because I jokingly said that if a JAP, a Sweed and Dane got together it cannot be all bad. They left out the German. Well some of the most amazing images of our time were made with Japanese glass. NIKON, Canon, Mamiya and yes FUJI!. It is about the photographer and how we interact with the subject matter. Gimme a Holga and I'll make some cool shit! Not what a Hassy 120 macro with tri-x will do. But yet still cool. You approach your subject matter with the tool you have.
I'll be the first to say that my H1, H2, four film backs, Polaroid Back (yeah, i know), and five lenses that I use with my P25 and A75 will be gone the minute a properly working Rollei Hy6 will be available.
My first square was a Rollei 6008 and then I went to the Hassy 553ELX and then the RZ. The best film and colours I ever achieved were from my Schneider PQS lenses. the 180mm 2.8 is breathtaking! The 55mm/2.8 was superb! and the 55 Shift was insane. But the DAMN battery SUCKED!
I will most likely only ever use Phase One and Leaf for my digital backs. They are simply the best at what they do from software on up.
After I have close to $25K on Hassy hardware and they leave me holding little Ricky with no upward lens strategy! I am pissed! I sold my Contax to get into H1. I had every lens Contax made form 35 to 210, the Pentax adapter and the Hassy V adapter. With a range of lenses that was insane! Not cool at all! Rollei has some of the most superb lenses out there, the shutter speeds that we all want should we need them and let's see what they come out with on the autofocus side. Plus!, being able to use the focusing hood with a vertical or horizontal chip! The H1 will only let me use it as a Horizontal. 20% of my work. I could have taped a pentax 67 magnifyng hood to my H1 with some Liquid nails and duct tape and probably gotten the same thing! I though they would make some rotating thing like the Rollei prism finders!
Nothing against Hassy! Love my PIII scanner although I am stuck using a software from three years ago because they don;t support SCSI anymore. Love my GA 645's and GX 617. They should have figured out a way to make the backs work with V bodies and no cables. That would have been cool! Although I just saw the 555ELD is gone and I hated the grip on the 503CW. Anything shorter than a 100 and your fingers got jammed in the trigger pusher.
Upward and Onward!!
I am off to shoot and not worrying about this crap anymore. Looks like the ROLLEI is the place to be. I hope it works!
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Has anybody mentioned developing a seperate "integrated" body a la ZD and keeping the H as-is. That would please those who want a MFDSLR and a modular unit.
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Jo,
It won't cut it. Even if I upgrade to a H2, I would probably not upgrade to a H2D since most reports seem to indicate that the Imacon sensor is behind its Leaf and Phase competitors.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79012\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Bernard - the only person you have to convince is yourself. So why not take a look at it and see if you like it or not.
I am not sure what you mean by 'Imacon' sensor as the sensor in Phase and Hassy is the same. Leaf uses Dalsa.
We can all rant and rave about what is the 'best' system. At the end of the day there are no wrong choices. Its not like Leaf, Phase, blah blah make bad products is it?
So, spare a few blood vessles everyone and go and take some photos.
Jo.
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I am not sure what you mean by 'Imacon' sensor as the sensor in Phase and Hassy is the same. Leaf uses Dalsa.
Unless they use an older version of the chip, which I doubt, I think he means the implementation of the Kodak chip in Phase produces a better image/workflow than the Imacaon/blad, the Leaf/Dalsa, arguably, better still.
The Leaf V10 software may not be up to C1 in function, but it's getting better. The great strength of C1 is being able to process files (very well) from Canon, Nikon, Leica, keeping the same workflow. C1 makes the images from the Kodak chip sing, Flex doesn't. Apart from that, it looks like a relic of some scanning software from OS9 days (which it is). Even if the camera was the best thing since sliced bread, the thought of being locked into that is a major turn off.
Quite interesting how the views are polarised into love and hate for what Hasselblad are doing. For those snappers who support it, quite vehemently (are you being paid by them?), I wish you all the best with your chosen platform. I'll carry on with my 500 series which will no doubt work as well has it has for the last 7 years I've been back with them. The only thing which does excite me is the Hy6, I can wait. Hasselblad H is definitely off the menu.
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Unless they use an older version of the chip, which I doubt, I think he means the implementation of the Kodak chip in Phase produces a better image/workflow than the Imacaon/blad, the Leaf/Dalsa, arguably, better still.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79041\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thank you Paul, that is indeed what I meant.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Bernard - the only person you have to convince is yourself. So why not take a look at it and see if you like it or not.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79026\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well, I think that I have managed to convince myself alright indeed, my H1 will be sold by the end of the month if nothing change on Hassy's part.
We can all rant and rave about what is the 'best' system. At the end of the day there are no wrong choices. Its not like Leaf, Phase, blah blah make bad products is it?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79026\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well, I'd rather rave when 30.000 US$ is at stake. The wrong choises are all those that are not the best, and I am with you in thinking that Leaf and Phase probably do not belong to the "wrong" catgory. Who does it leave us with?
So, spare a few blood vessles everyone and go and take some photos.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79026\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I am with you Jo, it is indeed not worth it.
Cheers,
Bernard
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Well, I think that I have managed to convince myself alright indeed, my H1 will be sold by the end of the month if nothing change on Hassy's part.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79045\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi Bernard,
I dont think you would look good without a nose
why sell it now if it still works for you?
I was pointed to this thread by a friend (also a long time imacon user) and I figured after wading through the posts, that some of us satisfied imacon/hasselblad users should try to balance the thread.
My imacon 384 (multishot) has given 4 years of faultless service, from tests, none of the other single shot backs could ever get close to the 4 shot captures never mind the 16 shot captures.
The imacon also has live video which phase one dealers tell me they never saw the need for???
I have been looking to add to my H1 and 384 and figured it best to wait until after photokina, and am I glad I did!
I have tried phase and leaf finding both to have overly complicated software and had also been waiting for an all in one solution, the H2D was tempting,)wasnt this an integrated camera) but the money wasnt available, I have recently tried a leaf aptus 22 (didnt like the software) and the various phase backs (didnt like the firewire cable in my chin and it is only firewire 400) and I am sorry but size for size I cant see a noticable difference in the images of the single shot backs. And sinar? well after sales support is lacking I am told.
After you have multi shot in the studio you never want to go back to single shot.
Live video is a big selling point for me too.
If I want to shoot fast then I use my canon mk2( and ACR)
Talk of investment confuses me too, is it just you boys and your toys? for me a camera is a tool of my trade (not an expensive toy for my hobby) which will wear out and be superceeded by a better tool. My car depreciates at about $1000 per month and do I complain if I cant put the engine out of the latest model in it?
My TV isnt HD ready but I still see pictures on it
If I cant make enough money to keep up with the latest release then I have to wait, my 384 is more than up to the job.
I like to be able to clean the chip on the imacon which is more than can be said of the canon.
Hasselblad could have gone the way of contax, rollei etc and then what would you boys have done with your "investments"? Instead they have chosen to develop "their" range of products whilst still supporting the H2, which as we have heard is in great demand around the world.
Hasselblad dont charge for their software updates and am I to be upset that C1 doesnt support my 3f files.
Sorry I cant pee any higher that this, take care boys
Liana
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why sell it now if it still works for you?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79052\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Liana,
I doesn't. It has been sitting in a Lowe Pro back for a year without me using it a single time. With a film back on, the H1 has zero value compared to a high end DSLR like the D2x that I have been using for 1.5 years. Similar image quality, but you pay the film, carry more weight, have less range, less flexibility,...
The H1 has been solely waiting for a MFDB that it will most probably never get...
Cheers,
Bernard
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Sorry I cant pee any higher that this, take care boys
Liana
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79052\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I can't believe I actually read through this entire thread! Torture I tell you.
So here is a prediction.
Hasselblad's decision is brilliant!
Their marketing strategy is outstanding. They will grow to be the number one selling "integrated" medium format system (I guess due to lack of any other integrated product thay already are). They will out sell the Hy6, Leaf Afi and any other medium format system on the market unless Canon makes a bigger chip and produces wide lenses that are semi decent.
BTW, from what I am told it is Jenoptic developing the Hy6/AFi not Rollei and we all know who Jenoptic is.
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BTW, from what I am told it is Jenoptic developing the Hy6/AFi not Rollei and we all know who Jenoptic is.
I guess I'm not part of "we all." Could you please explain who Jenoptic is? (I understand they used to own 51% of Sinar, that they sold to Leica.)
Could you provide a link to somewhere that explains that Jenoptic and not Rollei is developing the Hy6?
Thanks!
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Hasselblad's decision is brilliant!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79262\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It seems to me that Hasselblad have made a decision about their future direction that may upset existing users (like me) which is similar to what Canon did in the '80s when they introduced the EOS. They then began their domination of the Pro 35mm market. Nikon were not prepared to risk upsetting their existing users and stayed with their same mount. How did that turn out for each company? Maybe one was looking forwards and the other backwards?
If the other DB manufacturers don't get exclusive deals with other camera manufacturers and need a good body to hang their back on, I imagine Hasselblad will sell them cameras if they can make profit out of the deal... unless they actually think they can wipe them all out, which doesn't sound very realistic, but maybe it is their intention if they believe the future global demand for DB's isn't going to be very big and they will need all of that market to get economies of scale.
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It seems to me that Hasselblad have made a decision about their future direction that may upset existing users (like me) which is similar to what Canon did in the '80s when they introduced the EOS. They then began their domination of the Pro 35mm market. Nikon were not prepared to risk upsetting their existing users and stayed with their same mount. How did that turn out for each company? Maybe one was looking forwards and the other backwards?
If the other DB manufacturers don't get exclusive deals with other camera manufacturers and need a good body to hang their back on, I imagine Hasselblad will sell them cameras if they can make profit out of the deal... unless they actually think they can wipe them all out, which doesn't sound very realistic, but maybe it is their intention if they believe the future global demand for DB's isn't going to be very big and they will need all of that market to get economies of scale.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79271\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
When they have a big enough user base, a competitive upgrade could do wonders for them, indeed. At the moment it sounds like they have upset their existing users pointlessly.
Edmund
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BTW, from what I am told it is Jenoptic developing the Hy6/AFi not Rollei and we all know who Jenoptic is.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79262\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Strange? It takes Rollei lenses and has all the usual Rollei functions. Jenoptik might be bankrolling it but it looks very much like a Rollei, epecially with all the handgrip area controls.
I'm going to buy a HY6 because it gives me more choices, the lenses are better and the front elements don't drop off the zooms.
The Sinar backs work well on my 6008, I'm looking forward to the back going onto a camera that will take up less space when being carried onto an aircraft as hand luggage.
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I guess I'm not part of "we all." Could you please explain who Jenoptic is? (I understand they used to own 51% of Sinar, that they sold to Leica.)
Could you provide a link to somewhere that explains that Jenoptic and not Rollei is developing the Hy6?
Thanks!
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=79263\")
Steve here are a few links for further reading:
[a href=\"http://www.jenoptik.com/cps/rde/xchg/SID-26EE34DB-2DE8C916/jenoptik/hs.xsl/276.htm]http://www.jenoptik.com/cps/rde/xchg/SID-2.../hs.xsl/276.htm[/url]
http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=347844 (http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=347844)
http://www.photonewstoday.com/?p=105 (http://www.photonewstoday.com/?p=105)
http://www.franke-heidecke.net/ (http://www.franke-heidecke.net/)
http://www.leaf-photography.com/files/Pres...tiks_Camera.pdf (http://www.leaf-photography.com/files/Press%20Releases/Leaf_and_Janoptiks_Camera.pdf)
http://www.leaf-photography.com/files/Pres...Cooperation.pdf (http://www.leaf-photography.com/files/Press%20Releases/Leaf-Janoptiks_Cooperation.pdf)
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I guess I'm not part of "we all." Could you please explain who Jenoptic is? (I understand they used to own 51% of Sinar, that they sold to Leica.)
Could you provide a link to somewhere that explains that Jenoptic and not Rollei is developing the Hy6?
Thanks!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79263\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The group was founded in 1991 as a successor to JENOPTIK Carl Zeiss Jena GmbH. Since June 1998 JENOPTIK AG has been listed on the Frankfurt Stock Exchange and is included in the TecDax.
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I guess I'm not part of "we all." Could you please explain who Jenoptic is? (I understand they used to own 51% of Sinar, that they sold to Leica.)
Could you provide a link to somewhere that explains that Jenoptic and not Rollei is developing the Hy6?
Thanks!
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=79263\")
If I've learned anything about digital capture in the last few years is the bottom line is don't get caught up in the bleeding edge of it all.
It's just too difficult running a business, moving your art and constantly buying, upgrading, learning just to start the whole process over again.
I could write a book on my chronicles from digital capture starting with the Kodak 760 to the Leaf Aptus, and each camera, each new upgrade took hundreds of hours to learn and digest.
Today, after Photokina you would think the world has ended, now that Hasselblad has decided to go their own propreitary way.
Personally I think thier decision is good for our industry because it forces positive change. Many people will explore past systems and as we see Leaf and Sinar will develope new ones.
But for anyone to say they have to wait and see what shakes out before making a decision to me makes no sense.
Leaf, Phase, Sinar and Imablad all make backs that will go on at least 7 medium format cameras that offer huge lens selections at bargain basement prices.
Some like the Contax are easier because they have a digital interface, others like the RZ are more difficult because they require adpater plates, but all of them work and continue to work as easily as they did with film.
It's funny that eveyrone bitches about the cost of medium format digital, but on the other hand feels lost unless there is a brand new camera platform available. Problem is the last brand new camera platform costs as much as a good digital back, by the time a few lenses were added.
I have a Contax with 9 lenses, two bodies, for around the same cost as a 1ds2 and one good lens.
I still use the Aptus 22 and can promise you it has all the resolution (and more) than any client has asked for and I will be using it for another 2 to 3 years, maybe more. I recently bought an A-65 just for a little higher iso and as a backup and for a long time I should be set.
I guess we can all get caught up in this, but as of today I think we have more options than ever before and if you pick the right system and you can get more than great value from it, you can get where you were in the film days where you had one system that lasted a large part of your career.
Just because Hasselblad or Leaf or Phase writes a new PDF doesn't mean that what your using today magically quit working.
I constantly read that C-1 is the only useable software, the Leaf file is more film like, or the Hasselblad is more integrated. Truth be told, most of these systems are very good, some In my opinion better, but all very good.
The trick is finding what works for you, developing a fast workflow and getting back to what your true love is, which is making photographs.
I have a simple workflow useing Leaf V-8 for tethering, which btw is very fast and rock stable, I-view for editing and sorting and pscs1 for batching.
In the world of digital this may seem like a step backward but unless you've learned and tried V-8 you don't really know how fast and stable tethering can be. The upside of the small embedded tiffs in the Leaf file is they sort very fast in I-view and though Adobe would love to see us all move to the next CS2,3,4,5,6,, CS1 processes my files film like and even on an old G4 powerbook will batch process a file in 17 seconds.
I hope the new Leaf/Sinar HY6 is a success, I hope hasselblad improves their backs and would love nothing more than to see Phase assist Mamiya into making a world class product. That is good for all of us, but keep in mind that if technology absolutely stopped today, there would still be beautiful photographs produced with what is available.
In the last few weeks nothing changed for the worst. It probably got better.
IMO
JR
[a href=\"http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/bethany/]http://www.russellrutherfordgroup.com/bethany/[/url]
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The trick is finding what works for you, developing a fast workflow and getting back to what your true love is, which is making photographs.
Personally I think thier decision is good for our industry because it forces positive change. Many people will explore past systems and as we see Leaf and Sinar will develope new ones.
Here, here. Pleasure to read you James. Although I'm loathe to forget Hasselblad's dubious decision and adopt their platform I'm more than glad to see, and hopefully buy, the innovation that results from the competition's response.
I've received three mailings from Hasselblad since Photokina, each one as slick and oblivious as the last. It just floors me why the other brands aren't fine tuning their marketing plans. Then again, their chances just got a whole lot more interesting.
I'm a month away from spending a considerable sum on MF and the options are nothing if not exciting. I'm more confident now about my choices than I was in July, thanks in no small part to hungry dealer networks, innovative product development and sage advice from other grounded pros with more MF experience than my own...
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and workflow James.
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Yaya, thank you ever so much for all the links--I'm sure it took a fair while to find all of those. I've read them through, and learned quite a bit that I didn't already know.
James Russell, your very thoughtful essay followed a quote from me; I think, though, that what you said was more directed at everyone here rather than me. I thank you for your wise counsel; indeed, we do now have many very fine ways to do photography!
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The Hasselblad Integrated approach is a good idea IF that translates into significantly more agressive pricing of their system. I mean being a DSLR it should be priced more closely to say the Canon 1Ds mk2. The upcoming 20-22mp 1Ds "mk3" is already ready so when Canon finally decides to release it it will bridge the gap with MFDBs even more.
I mean if Hasselblad prices their H3D at around $12,000 or so it will just raise the value bar so high in MFDB world that it will be hard for MFDB mfgs to compete.
Canon kinda did that with the DSLR I mean they offered the original 1Ds with about twice the resolution of Nikons D1x for only $2000 more only a year later than the D1x was introduced.
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Ken you are dreaming. THe prices have been released and are 27K and 32k depending on if you go with the 22 or 39 back.
The Hasselblad Integrated approach is a good idea IF that translates into significantly more agressive pricing of their system. I mean being a DSLR it should be priced more closely to say the Canon 1Ds mk2. The upcoming 20-22mp 1Ds "mk3" is already ready so when Canon finally decides to release it it will bridge the gap with MFDBs even more.
I mean if Hasselblad prices their H3D at around $12,000 or so it will just raise the value bar so high in MFDB world that it will be hard for MFDB mfgs to compete.
Canon kinda did that with the DSLR I mean they offered the original 1Ds with about twice the resolution of Nikons D1x for only $2000 more only a year later than the D1x was introduced.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79419\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Gosh we are back on topic and at last, some common scense real world views from a master, thanks James. I'm not sure what all the fuss is about either. I feel neutral about Hasselblad and with such testosterone about on this thread that is probably a good thing. I know that using my 2 year old H1 with it's P25 is great fun and inspiring. When It eventually gets replaced in another 2 or 3 years time I'm sure Hasselblad will still be there making some kind of MF camera system for me. I'm glad about that, and hopefully the competition will have got it's act together too.
Damien.
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I'm probably missing something fundamental, but whats to stop Phase reverse engineering one of their backs for an H3D?
They can make it fit, and work with the camera's electronics, provide power supply, etc. yes, it wont have the optical correction necessary to work that ultra wide, but that can be done in DXO pro or somesuch, and for the other lenses it should work as well as an H2D, so what am I missing?
I do understand hassleblads need to grab a big slice of the MF Digiback $ to survive, and totally would try the same if it were my company, but wouldnt it be better to do that by designing a better product than engineering a lockout?
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I'm probably missing something fundamental, but whats to stop Phase reverse engineering one of their backs for an H3D?
They can make it fit, and work with the camera's electronics, provide power supply, etc. yes, it wont have the optical correction necessary to work that ultra wide, but that can be done in DXO pro or somesuch, and for the other lenses it should work as well as an H2D, so what am I missing?
I do understand hassleblads need to grab a big slice of the MF Digiback $ to survive, and totally would try the same if it were my company, but wouldnt it be better to do that by designing a better product than engineering a lockout?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79867\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
You're missing the money bit...licencing fee that is...
Also if the firmware in the body is diffenrent and locks it, then there's not much you can do about it...
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what i don't understand is why would anyone want to buy the H3D?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78943\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hello. I haven´t posted ever before. But I am currently buying an H3D. And it´s easy to explain why. I think most of those that complain about H3D being a closed system probably use a mac for retouching etc. Thats a closed system too. It works tremendously well, because it´s a closed system. Sure you can buy aftermarket monitors etc, which would be like buying filters for the H3D, but that Mac sitting on your desk is the same as an H3D.
Here´s why I´m buying the H3D:
First quality of the images. I went to Photokina 2006. I brought with me several CF cards. I shot handheld and tripod with both a P45+ and a H3D, at the respective booth of each company. I know it´s not a perfect test, but it´s a test. I took it images back to my hotel room, and loaded them up. I haven´t shot with any 39Megapixel cameras ever. I shoot sinar 4x5 and Canon Mark II. So I haven´t any preconcieved notions. When I talk about quality of the files I mean image detail. The H3D resolves much more detail than the P45+. However the P45+ has slightly less noise. This was the main difference. It´s a small difference, but noticeable. I returned the next day to ask in the Hasselblad booth about the difference in noise. They told me that Phase One does handle noise a little bit better, which seemed well refreshing that they would say that to me. On the other hand, when I returned to the Phase One booth to ask them about the lack of detail in their digital files, they got defensive, and when I asked if they would try to reprocess them they flatly said no and tried to sell me on the live preview feature instead. (which they were demoing at the hasselblad booth too).
I used the latest Capture One 3.7.5 and Flexcolor. I admit that Flexcolor is not in the same league as Capture One, I use Capture one for my Canon RAW files, but the Barrel Distorsion Correction and Digital Apo are what really makes me choose the H3D.
Beyond these aspects, the lenses are fantastic, the new waist level is essential, and it´s NOT a closed system like the H2D-39. You can use a film back on the H3D, another essential. There is an adapter to put the Digital Back onto my sinar too, perfect.
One question that still remains in my head, is that if the H3D will accept Film Backs, how could they prevent it from accepting other Digital Backs. I believe this is pure assumption and I doubt that anyone has really tried it.
If you´re interested in recieving any of the files from the H3d let me know.
Regards. John DK
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Hello. I haven´t posted ever before. But I am currently buying an H3D. And it´s easy to explain why. I think most of those that complain about H3D being a closed system probably use a mac for retouching etc. Thats a closed system too. It works tremendously well, because it´s a closed system. Sure you can buy aftermarket monitors etc, which would be like buying filters for the H3D, but that Mac sitting on your desk is the same as an H3D.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80496\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
it is funny that you compare it to a mac....which runs ANY (mac os, windows, linux,..) operating system you want, you can obviously run any software on it as well, so most add ons work as well...i would not consider that a closed system at all!
about your choice: if you are happy with the results..that is all that matters! before i got my back, i went out and tested them all, including hasselblad/imacon...i made my choice based on what i thought was the best solution for me...
last year, when i looked at all the different backs, i looked at the H2D and did not like the way it showed color (especially skintone) and i really did not like the H1/2 at all...the H3D is still the same back and it is still the same camera, so there is no reason for me to consider it....(i am sure a lot of people don't like the 6008, which i love)....anyway i can imagine that imacon worked out their problems and that the H3D produces wonderful files, it drew the wrath of the community because it abandoned all H1/2 owners (all the existing customers!), which hasselblad has actually done before with the 200 series (produced a new line of product only to completely abandon it a couple of years later), which i am sure still has many happy users regardless....still, i would be pissed off as well....
all this really should not matter to you, because you bought the product you found to be the best for you and that is the most important (and really only) factor...you will be able to use all future lenses and as long as you are happy with the imacon back, you won't have to worry about the H3D taking other backs.... congrats on your purchase and happy shooting....and yes i would love to see some files!
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it is funny that you compare it to a mac....which runs ANY (mac os, windows, linux,..) operating system you want, you can obviously run any software on it as well, so most add ons work as well...i would not consider that a closed system at all!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80507\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This is off-topic, but I need to make myself clearer.
The problem I have with mac is that the OS is LOCKED. I would like to be able to install it on a Dell and save $800 on a laptop, but apple doesn´t allow it, there´s no reason it should work fine on a dell or compaq or whatever. That way they can charge a steep price for what would be cheaper from any other manufactuerer. Thats the price you have to pay to use their OS. It´s a similiar thing with Hasselblad, but reverse you save $10,000 if you buy their ¨locked¨ system.
John.
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I'm really interested to see a sample of your files from the H3D. Are you going for the 39mp or the 22mp? Have you got a delivery date?
Damien.
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The problem I have with mac is that the OS is LOCKED.
It makes no sense to compare hardware with software, in my opinion. Saying the Mac OS is locked is like saying that Capture One is locked. I don't see anyone buying backs in order to use a specific RAW processor. It's the hardware which drives the MFDB market.
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"Hasselblad H3D, the world's first 48mm full-frame DSLR camera system." ---
Actually my Dicomed Bigshot circa 1995 "overfilled" the 58mmx58mm frame of the hasselbled by a whole 3mm!
Of course the dicomed was teathered via a SCSI cable to a 80lb Mac G3 tower with a minimum of 1GB ram in 1995 money!. FYI it was 12bit/16 MP!
www.vincentseye.com
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"Hasselblad H3D, the world's first 48mm full-frame DSLR camera system." ---
Actually my Dicomed Bigshot circa 1995 "overfilled" the 58mmx58mm frame of the hasselbled by a whole 3mm!
Of course the dicomed was teathered via a SCSI cable to a 80lb Mac G3 tower with a minimum of 1GB ram in 1995 money!. FYI it was 12bit/16 MP!
www.vincentseye.com
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80849\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hasselblad did a really poor job of communicating what they're doing. When most photographers see "full frame" they get a big lump in their throat because they think "No, it can't be. Is it? Is it finally the full-frame sensor?" And Hasselblad should have know this.
But to be technically specific, yes, it is the "world's first 48mm full frame DSLR camera system".
Meaning, when you look through the viewfinder, you will see a 100% view of a 48mm frame (or 49mm, since they're using the Kodak chip - still haven't sorted that out ). And the lenses that will be made specifically for this camera will be spec'd to fit a 48mm capture area.
This Thursday I will be looking at an H3D and getting a closer handle on it. Perhaps some more clarifications will emerge. If any do, I'll post em.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
www.ppratlanta.com
Dealer for Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar
Father of one
Husband of two (one former, one current and forever)
Mediocre driver
Nowhere near talented enough to be a professional photographer
Uh oh, too much information...
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It hasn't been mentioned but Kodak has been calling its CCD sensors "Full-Frame CCD Imaging Sensors" since it started putting them on the market. So I guess Hasselblad could be said to be following Kodak's lead without any deliberate move to mislead the market.
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It hasn't been mentioned but Kodak has been calling its CCD sensors "Full-Frame CCD Imaging Sensors" since it started putting them on the market. So I guess Hasselblad could be said to be following Kodak's lead without any deliberate move to mislead the market.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80871\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Both Kodak and Dalsa list their sensors as "full frame" which doesn't actually have anything to do with how it relates to a camera format, it's for a technical reason that escapes me at the moment.
Where Hasselblad screwed up is in not effectively communicating that they're not talking about the sensor itself in relation to, say a 645 format. They're not following the lead on anything, they're just doing a poor job of communicating the non-cropped nature of the product from the viewing and lens perspectives.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
ww.ppratlanta.com
Dealer for Leaf/Hasselblad/Sinar
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It hasn't been mentioned but Kodak has been calling its CCD sensors "Full-Frame CCD Imaging Sensors" since it started putting them on the market. So I guess Hasselblad could be said to be following Kodak's lead without any deliberate move to mislead the market.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=80871\")
I doubt it.
When Kodak and Dalsa refer to their medium format sensors as Full Frame CCD's they are using the established standard name for the type of CCD technology used, distinguished from the Interline type of CCD used in video cameras, compact digital cameras, and Sony's DSLR CCD's. (Interline CCD's have extra "wiring" needed for video output, at the cost of smaller electron wells and so lower dynamic range.)
Hasselblad-Imacon is clearly using "Full Frame" instead the way Canon does, as meaning "not crop frame", on the basis that with the new 28mm HCD lens and the new digital only viewfinder adapted specifically to the "36x48" format, there is no reduction of maximum available angular FOV compared to H cameras use with film backs, no cropping or masking down of the VF to a smaller image size, no metering errors due to bright lights outside the recorded frame but within the 645 frame, and so on.
As I have said before, the sensor still crops all other H system lenses to a FOV about 13% narrower than they were designed for, so Hasselblad-Imacon's claim is still a bit dubious: "the glass is 87% full".
I am not a medium format user (since I stopped using my 6x9 format Brownie!), so I do not know how much of a bother that 13% is. The comparison picture for the Phase One P45+ back at the left here [a href=\"http://phaseone.com/upload/pplus.pdf]http://phaseone.com/upload/pplus.pdf[/url] suggests to me though that it is not a very big deal, except when one has payed a lot for the widest possible lens.
P. S. Perhaps we should stop attributing the H3D to the Swedish company Hasselblad, which no longer exists.
The H3D comes from the Danish company Hasselblad-Imacon whose management (e.g Paulson) is roughly the former Imacon management, in partnership with Fujifilm. "Hasselblad" is now little more than a brand name used on products of these other companies, like "Hasselblad" branded film scanners.
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Hi Marc,
I think so! It might depend on how old your H2D is, but considering the H3D is €1000 more (I think?) then it could be a charge like this.
Go ask your dealer I guess.
Jo.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78962\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi jo and Marc,
I just asked my dealer what the upgrade costs, and ordered one on the spot. He wantet 1000,- euro for the upgrade from my H2 + CFH-39 to the H3D-39. He also said they exchange the whole system (exept the lenses) to brand new items.
This is my first post by the way, so if the quotations and anything go amiss, be friendly
Regards, Axel.
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This Thursday I will be looking at an H3D and getting a closer handle
Steve Hendrix
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80856\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If the 28 lens is there grab it . stick it on a p25 and H1/2 drop some frames and report back
It the body is there stick a p25 on the back , fire the shutter and report back
SMM
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I thought the 28mm would not be chipped to work on the H1/h2
If the 28 lens is there grab it . stick it on a p25 and H1/2 drop some frames and report back
It the body is there stick a p25 on the back , fire the shutter and report back
SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80943\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I thought the 28mm would not be chipped to work on the H1/h2
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80944\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Grabbing is believing.
May upset the hassy rep especially if it works
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it is funny that you compare it to a mac....which runs ANY (mac os, windows, linux,..) operating system you want, you can obviously run any software on it as well, so most add ons work as well...i would not consider that a closed system at all!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80507\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
He is right though, most people buy the Mac for the OS, and the OS drives the choice of hardware in the case of Apple. It is without any possible doubt a closed system. And it being a closed system has indeed a lot to do with why it works so well.
It doesn't make sense to deny the value of closed systems, what makes sense is to show that open system have other advantages that can potentially overcome the advantages of closed system. We should all be aware that image quality is not likely to be an area where open systems top closed ones.
Sorry guys, but the whole "open" is better than "closed" discussion is just oversimplistic.
This being said, I just bought an iMac, but just sold my Hassy gear...
- I am fully aware of the closeness of the Mac World but I have come to prefer a system that works (and one that looks real good),
- I was using Hassy before they decided to close up the doors, I am just a casuality of war... too bad for me, and too bad for Hassy that they have lost me as a customer. They'll cry the day I get the Pulizer with a Mamiya hanging around my neck!
Cheers,
Bernard
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If the 28 lens is there grab it . stick it on a p25 and H1/2 drop some frames and report back
It the body is there stick a p25 on the back , fire the shutter and report back
SMM
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80943\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Great idea Morgan!
I doubt he'll have the 28mm - they're not expected until end of year, but if he does, on an H2 it will go.
How about a Leaf Aptus 75 on the H3? Will that do?
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
www.ppratlanta.com
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Leaf Aptus 75 on the H3?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80973\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
any thing thats not supposed to work
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any thing thats not supposed to work
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=80975\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I'm going to dig out an Eyelike M11....
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Nothing against Hassy! Love my PIII scanner although I am stuck using a software from three years ago because they don;t support SCSI anymore.
The last software version to officially support SCSI was Flexcolor 4.0.2 from August 2005. Try some later versions as well. The main problem is finding an operating system and hardware that supports it. I dont think that is something that Hasselblad could influence.
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It's finally here. Full frame medium format. The H3D was announced at Photokina, and well, I want one. But at $32,000, I think I'll wait....
Hasselblad Launches World's First 48mm Full-Frame DSLR Camera System
Hasselblad is today firmly positioning itself as the pre-eminent provider of high-end digital cameras with >>the launch of the Hasselblad H3D, the world's first 48mm full-frame DSLR camera system. The H3D is the result of Hasselblad's strategy of taking photographic flexibility and image quality to new levels, as yet unseen in any competing product. When compared with high-end 35mm DSLRs, the H3D delivers unmatched pixel resolution, better colors and detail rendering and a new choice of viewfinders for creative image composition. In comparison with digital backs, the H3D delivers image quality with a higher level of detail and true sharpness thanks to Hasselblad's Digital APO Correction (DAC) and the advances of its new Ultra-Focus functionality. The H3D's full-frame concept offers unique control of image composition and with its new 28mm lens, the H3D allows photographers for the first time ever to take wide angle shots on a 36 x 48mm sensor.
U.S. MSRP Pricing is as follows:
H3D-22: $26,995
H3D-39: $31,995
Link: http://www.hasselblad.com/promotion/h3d.aspx (http://www.hasselblad.com/promotion/h3d.aspx)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78350\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think you better off looking for a H1 or H2 (bound to lower in price soon) and put a NEW PhaseOne P45 Plus back with 100-1600 ISO / faster shooting rate and open architecture with CAPTURE ONE 3.7.5 - the combo just rock. I am NOT 100% sure H3 is REALLY FULL-FRAME???
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I read the Lum.Landscape review of the H3 and agree that the execution of self obsolescence really does blow.
I am a second string market commercial photographer... no booz adds, or sexy models... lots of farmers, engineers, and open sky.
I couldn't and will not dream of spending that kinda cash on a H3 or Sinar/Rollie thing new.
I am making due with my used cobbled together Sinar system, and my Hassy 500's with my Refurb Aptus 17 back that I got this week.
If I need auto-focus I will use my Fuji S3 and in the future S5.
Loving the slow(er) lane.... hey I did photograph a nearly nude model two years ago for a swimwear issue spoof in a literary magazine.
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I read the Lum.Landscape review of the H3 and agree that the execution of self obsolescence really does blow.
I am a second string market commercial photographer... no booz adds, or sexy models... lots of farmers, engineers, and open sky.
I couldn't and will not dream of spending that kinda cash on a H3 or Sinar/Rollie thing new.
I am making due with my used cobbled together Sinar system, and my Hassy 500's with my Refurb Aptus 17 back that I got this week.
If I need auto-focus I will use my Fuji S3 and in the future S5.
Loving the slow(er) lane.... hey I did photograph a nearly nude model two years ago for a swimwear issue spoof in a literary magazine.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81246\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well, it's good I was alway Mamiya RB / RZ II based and now have no medium format. Strangely I always wanted a HASSY when in college but lucky to have met Mamiya along the way (shame it is NOT doing well with its digital outfit - the 22mp was interesting with a DSLR style body). So without any HASSY lenses or bodies, I have NOT locked in. I really enjoyed working with PhaseOne P45 back + Capture One.
My 5D and 1Ds II are fine - especially fast auto focusing and ability to blow up to 40 x 60" without many trace of digital (some photographers swear they can tell the difference between film and digital. Just wait for the rumored 1ds iii with 22 mp FF sensor or 1d iii with 17 mp 1.3x sensor with SOME super duper NEW Canon EF "XL" lenses.
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Do we know Hasselblad are to drop the H2? I asked that question at Photokina and was assured by Hasselblad that it was still to be produced.
Steve
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Do we know Hasselblad are to drop the H2? I asked that question at Photokina and was assured by Hasselblad that it was still to be produced.
Steve
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81297\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Guess you just have to buy a s/h H1 or H2 or a few of them if you really got the DOSH or just move to CANON 1ds ii or rumored 1ds iii in DEC 2006 / JAN 2007.
I personally think Canon is still the safest investment in terms of chip / lens and body combination.
I print with an EPSON 9800 to 60 x 40" and the results are great from both 1ds ii and 5d files. I also found archiving is a HUGE problem working with PhaseOne P45 - MASSIVE 39 MP which sometime is just plain stupid (you do notice a very subtle improvement from Canon FF but cost ratio and future upgrabilities are BAD issues now that HASSY decided to do a CLOSED architecture!!!
I personally loved the PhaseOne and Capture One 3.7.5 combination and H3D means I can't do that. I found the HASSY software NOT as good as Capture One and the back NOT as great for high ISO like P30+ and P45+ just released. Why would I have to be dictated by HASSY what back I used (H2D was OK but H3D with a CLOSED architecture I think NOT). Lucky I love my CANON and only use PhaseOne at work.
I guess HASSY will be dropping them soon??? I would be pis*ed off if I am a HASSY user right now. Luckily I got hooked with Mamiya RB / RZ II when in college (or also unlike they have sort off got problem moving to digital with the ZD).
Also I think the HCD lens meaning HC digital will NOT be compatible with H1 or H2 i.e. HCD 28mm that just released (more like the reverse situation to Canon's EF and EFs and Nikon's AF and AF DX).
HASSY is being greedy! Watch out from SINAR / ROLLEI and LEAF 's new bodies in the near future. Competition will be good.
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"Do we know Hasselblad are to drop the H2?"
Hasselblad are being completely disingenuous about this. At the booth on the first two days of Photokina Hasselblad employees were stating catagorically that the H2 would be discontinued as soon as H3D production could be ramped up. (I have this recorded on video more than once).
The dealer community got up in arms, and at the press conference Christian Poulsen, the CEO, said that H2 production would continue "as long as there was demand". Right!
My guess is that the company intended to discontinue the H2, but were surprised by the vociferous dealer response and so back-peddled – at least verbally.
The real answer is now anyone's guess. If Hasselblad follows through with their new strategy (H3D as closed system) then they will likely discontinue the H2 in the near future. If on the other hand they listen to dealer and customer feedback and abandon this losing strategy, then we will hopefully continue to have a system that photographers can consider as a viable alternative.
Otherwise, we're left with just Mamiya and the upcoming Hy6 as platforms for medium format photography. We can only hope that Hasselblad management sees the light, or that there's a palace coup. Otherwise, Hasselblad RIP.
Michael
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Guess you just have to buy a s/h H1 or H2 or a few of them if you really got the DOSH or just move to CANON 1ds ii or rumored 1ds iii in DEC 2006 / JAN 2007.
I don't see the Canon as ever being a true substitute for a medium format camera. The larger sensor size and larger viewfinder, as well as waist-level finder options all make it a very different tool. Not to mention the superior MF lenses. I would still gladly choose a MF 22 MP system over a Canon 22 MP system.
Btw, the Rollei 6008 AF with Sinar back is also available now and is very competitive with the H2, and the Mamiya 645 or ZD systems also have a lot to offer. It is by no means a one-horse race.
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I have been communicating with Paul Claesson who is a Technical Specialist for the H System and Digital. He has been very helpful to me when there were some technical issues running my Aptus 65 and Hassy H2 and I am appreciative.
This is what he told me via an email in response to my disappointment with the Photokina announcement "There was alot of misunderstanding of what the H3D release means for the H2 system."
I want to post his letter but the disclammer requests that the contents cannot be communicated elsewhere. I guess i need to respect that. However his specific point regarding the future of the H2 system was :
"First, Hasselblad still offers the H2 camera platform for photographers shooting film or utilizing a 3rd party digital back, this has not changed."
This with the statement that there is misunderstanding of the H3D release makes one think that the H2 system will continue.. HOWEVER--- if you read the statement carefully it does not mean much related to the future of the H2 system. His sentence reads that the H2 availability and system has not changed... That means today it is still here. The big question is whether or not it will change or be discontinued in the near future (e.g. tomorrow).
THis is a note I got from a Hasselblad sales rep
Dr. Kay:
"I can understand that you may feel that Hasselblad is abandoning the H system as an open architecture system, nothing is further from the truth.
Our H1D, H2D, and now the H3D are strictly medium format DSLR products that we will offer. Because our technology of manufacturing the front end (the camera body), we can create a much more powerful digital magazine. Please keep an open mind and look at what we are doing as a whole for high end digital photography.
If you’d like to schedule a demonstration sometime in the future, please feel free to contact me."
Again, I am not sure what this means. I suggest that if you are not happy about the decision you write to Hasselblad and let them know your concerns.
Mark
"Do we know Hasselblad are to drop the H2?"
Hasselblad are being completely ingenuious about this. At the booth on the first two days of Photokina Hasselblad employees were stating catagorically that the H2 would be discontinued as soon as H3D production could be ramped up. (I have this recorded on video more than once).
The dealer community got up in arms, and at the press conference Christian Poulsen, the CEO, said that H2 production would continue "as long as there was demand". Right!
My guess is that the company intended to discontinue the H2, but were surprised by the vociferous dealer response and so back-peddled – at least verbally.
The real answer is now anyone's guess. If Hasselblad follows through with their new strategy (H3D as closed system) then they will likely discontinue the H2 in the near future. If on the other hand they listen to dealer and customer feedback and abandon this losing strategy, then we will hopefully continue to have a system that photographers can consider as a viable alternative.
Otherwise, we're left with just Mamiya and the upcoming Hy6 as platforms for medium format photography. We can only hope that Hasselblad management sees the light, or that there's a palace coup. Otherwise, Hasselblad RIP.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81315\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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"Do we know Hasselblad are to drop the H2?"
Hasselblad are being completely disingenuous about this. At the booth on the first two days of Photokina Hasselblad employees were stating catagorically that the H2 would be discontinued as soon as H3D production could be ramped up. (I have this recorded on video more than once).
The dealer community got up in arms, and at the press conference Christian Poulsen, the CEO, said that H2 production would continue "as long as there was demand". Right!
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81315\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Are you sure you are not confusing this with the H2D????
...and I don't understand why the H'3'D has caused so much controversy when at last Photokina I was looking at an H1D which was also a closed system???
Is the video footage part of your medium format video blog?
Jo S.
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Are you sure you are not confusing this with the H2D????
...and I don't understand why the H'3'D has caused so much controversy when at last Photokina I was looking at an H1D which was also a closed system???
Is the video footage part of your medium format video blog?
Jo S.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81367\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The CEO of Hasselblad announced they were not going to support (and maybe permit) thir daprty backs, starting from the H3D.
Edmund
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The CEO of Hasselblad announced they were not going to support (and maybe permit) thir daprty backs, starting from the H3D.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81373\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hi Edmund,
This is incorrect.
The H1D and the H2D never supported third party backs either. The H1 existed while the H1D and was being sold - that wasn't dropped. Why do you think this situation is any different?
The H3D, to me, appears to be a development of the H2D - which was also a system which did not support third party backs.
Jo s.
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Jo,
This is a quibble argument.
There is no H3, just the H3D. That's the whole point.
No migration path for those currently owning or wishing to own a body which can use the new generation of lenses. And, if the company's current strategy remains unchanged, the H2 will become history sooner rather than later.
The reality is that Hasselblad has huge debt, and revenue from their camera offerings doesn't meet their cash flow needs to service this debt. Only selling backs is a high enough margin business, and their backs currently only have a tiny market share compared to Phase and Leaf.
Ergo, the need to lock out competative backs and force customers to buy Hassy backs if they want a Hassy camera and lenses.
Makes sense on the surface, if you're a bean counter, but is to my mind it's a doomed strategy from a marketing point of view.
Michael
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Jo,
The reality is that Hasselblad has huge debt, and revenue from their camera offerings doesn't meet their cash flow needs to service this debt. Only selling backs is a high enough margin business, and their backs currently only have a tiny market share compared to Phase and Leaf.
Ergo, the need to lock out competative backs and force customers to buy Hassy backs if they want a Hassy camera and lenses.
Makes sense on the surface, if you're a bean counter, but is to my mind it's a doomed strategy from a marketing point of view.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81388\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
If you are right, Michael, then Hasselblad had two choices. Bankruptcy or the H3D. I think that's a pretty easy decision. If their backs are truly competitive, and unfortunately no one who visits this site seems to know(or wants to know), then their decision with their H3D will prove correct.
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If you are right, Michael, then Hasselblad had two choices. Bankruptcy or the H3D. I think that's a pretty easy decision. If their backs are truly competitive, and unfortunately no one who visits this site seems to know(or wants to know), then their decision with their H3D will prove correct.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81393\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Exactly.
Would we prefer to see Hasselblad go out of business or survive?
I think it would be the latter which would make 'Victor Hasselblad turn in his grave'....
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Jo,
This is a quibble argument.
There is no H3, just the H3D. That's the whole point.
No migration path for those currently owning or wishing to own a body which can use the new generation of lenses. And, if the company's current strategy remains unchanged, the H2 will become history sooner rather than later.
The reality is that Hasselblad has huge debt, and revenue from their camera offerings doesn't meet their cash flow needs to service this debt. Only selling backs is a high enough margin business, and their backs currently only have a tiny market share compared to Phase and Leaf.
Ergo, the need to lock out competative backs and force customers to buy Hassy backs if they want a Hassy camera and lenses.
Makes sense on the surface, if you're a bean counter, but is to my mind it's a doomed strategy from a marketing point of view.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81388\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Michael,
There is a lot of speculation there without any hard fact on your part.
Do you know how many H2 bodies are sold per year? I don't but if you do a rough scribble in your head there is an awful lot of Leaf / Phase backs out there on this platform. I would assume with every H2 body there would also be a couple of lenses which = revenue for a company with "huge debt".
Doesn't it?
Crikey, somebody must have really upset you in Hasselblad at a point in time.
Would you be quite so upset if it was Phase One who had merged with Hasselblad? Would you be championing the cause for Imacon owners?
...thought not.
Jo. x
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Exactly.
Would we prefer to see Hasselblad go out of business or survive?
I think it would be the latter which would make 'Victor Hasselblad turn in his grave'....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81394\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I think H3D architecture might be a problem because it is a closed HASSY system that does not seem to allow other backs to fit it like PhaseOne - probably the most popular 22mp and 39mp back because of bthe large Capture One user base.
I though don't think HASSY will go as far as BANKRUPTCY. I don't think VICTOR would like that even though he is dead.
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Would we prefer to see Hasselblad go out of business or survive?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81394\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The answer is obvious, otherwise why would I be so concerned about this issue?
But, just because the closed system approach is the one that Poulsen has chosen as a survival strategy doesn't make it the best or only strategy available. I can imagine several that have reasonable chances for success and which don't alienate current or potential customers the way their current one does.
Michael
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The answer is obvious, otherwise why would I be so concerned about this issue?
But, just because the closed system approach is the one that Poulsen has chosen as a survival strategy doesn't make it the best or only strategy available. I can imagine several that have reasonable chances for success and which don't alienate current or potential customers the way their current one does.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81398\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I bought a Hasselblad system over 20 years ago. It has been "updated" several times since then. But:
1) The camera system I bought then, while obsolete by many standards, is still just as good as it was then. If I was happy then, why can't I be happy now?
2) I can buy new gear (update) that fits the obsolete system to make it pretty modern, if I wanted or needed to. I like the idea that Hasselblad, while introducing new systems, has not abandon the older systems and users.
It would be a shame to see them go, but they are a business and need to make a fair profit (return on their investment). That could price them out the market, so be it, but a shame.
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"There is a lot of speculation there without any hard fact on your part."
Regretably I am not in a position to be able to share publicly certain information. But, knowing what I do, I am confident of my statements, otherwise I wouldn't make them here.
"Crikey, somebody must have really upset you in Hasselblad at a point in time"
Yes, indeed they did. It was a few weeks ago at Photokina when the CEO announced their current business strategy. Prior to that I had no beef whatsoever with the company. I own their products and think very highly of them. Also, I was treated very well by them when one of their brand-new lenses failed catastrophically while I was on location in Africa earlier this year.
My problem isn't with the products. My problem is with their new foolhardy business strategy.
And I'm not alone. Their entire dealer network is deeply concerned about it as well. Speak to a few dealership owner/managers to see what I mean.
Michael
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"I bought a Hasselblad system over 20 years ago. It has been "updated" several times since then. But:
1) The camera system I bought then, while obsolete by many standards, is still just as good as it was then. If I was happy then, why can't I be happy now?
2) I can buy new gear (update) that fits the obsolete system to make it pretty modern, if I wanted or needed to. I like the idea that Hasselblad, while introducing new systems, has not abandon the older systems and users."
I too have had Hasselblad systems for many years, but I believe the latest offering is departure from your points.
With previous Hasselblad systems you could always buy new lenses or even use the older lenses etc. With Canon (assuming L glass) I kept my lenses from the film bodies and use them fine on the digital body. I didn't have to replace the entire system to upgrade to something newer.
With the HD3 (if I understand correctly) system you cannot use H2 or H3 lenses or backs but rather have to reinvest in new lenses, at least to maximize the new capabilities and features.
People who sold other systems to jump on the Hasselblad bandwagon, imo, are being left in the dust. I had not yet jumped back to Hasselblad and now I will wait and see what shakes out. Does not promote brand loyalty for Hasselblad.
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The reality is that Hasselblad has huge debt, and revenue from their camera offerings doesn't meet their cash flow needs to service this debt. Only selling backs is a high enough margin business, and their backs currently only have a tiny market share compared to Phase and Leaf.
Ergo, the need to lock out competative backs and force customers to buy Hassy backs if they want a Hassy camera and lenses.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81388\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Michael:
This is an irresponsible statement on your part. What does that mean, "huge debt"? Every company has assets and liabilities. The ratio of debt to asset is a much more revealing statistic. Saying a company has huge debt is a meaningless statement. Or are you trying to say that they're not making money? Because whatever the case may be, the fact is that Hasselblad is a profitable company. Within a year of the Hasselblad/Imacon merger, Hasselblad became a profitable company again, after being un-profitable in the latter years of the film days. Imacon had been profitable for most of it's existence, which is more than you can say for some of it's competitors.
Obviously, revenues from film camera sales do not meet the needs of any medium format manufacturers. That's why - hello? - most of them are out of business. Regardless of what you call "huge debt", and please, by all means expound on this, the sale of film-based camera/lenses is not a successful business model. Who would have thought?
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
www.ppratlanta.com
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Personally this a big problem. As have stated before I am just about to invest in probably a Phase or Leaf DB. My prime objective is using either on a Cambo or Horsemann body. But what mount do I go for as I would then purchase the 645 system to go with that choice. The Mamiya would be fine but I had decided to go for the H2 for its superior AF and viewfinder.
I am very pleased with my 1Ds11 and 5D but the DB purchase is for my architectural work. However I know that I am going to like the quality of the DB file and want to use this more and more, particularly after having made such a significant purchase.
My earlier contribution recalled the comment I received from Hasselblad at Photokina that the H2 would continue to be produced, unfortunately the additional comment "whilst there is demand for the product" or something like that was added which I didn't really think about too much at the time. Reading between the lines of what Michael knows but is not allowed to say, makes me question my investment in any Hasselblad product.
So where does that leave me? Commercially I cannot wait for the Hy6. Unless that is it will take an H or Mamiya mount back when it eventually comes on the market?
An earlier earlier (!) contribution of mine refered to the profitability of some of the MF companies. I was amazed that Hasselblad are losing so much money as stated above. Can anyone let me know how well the likes of Phase, Leaf, Mamiya etc etc are doing, not specifically just broad brush very well, ok, nigh on bankrupt etc etc. That would be interesting.
Regards Steve
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An earlier earlier (!) contribution of mine refered to the profitability of some of the MF companies. I was amazed that Hasselblad are losing so much money as stated above. Can anyone let me know how well the likes of Phase, Leaf, Mamiya etc etc are doing, not specifically just broad brush very well, ok, nigh on bankrupt etc etc. That would be interesting.
Regards Steve
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81413\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Steve:
Your post illuminates the irresponsibility of Michael's comment. Hasselblad is not losing money. They are profitable. This is a straight up fact. They're a public company, you can go look it up. Why don't you ask Michael to share the history of other medium format companies like Leaf or Phase One? See how accurate that is.
Stating that Hasselblad has "huge debt", especially coming from someone in a position of influence like Michael, really raises a question about his agenda.
But - back to your dilemma. I expect H2 cameras to be produced for quite some time. The comment "As long as there is demand" could be attributed to any companie's product. H3D's will continue to be produced "as long as there is demand".
In fact, 14 months ago, I was told by Christian Poulson that V-Series Hasselblad's would continue to be produced "as long as there was demand". They are still being produced today.
The idea of a conspiracy to put competitors out of business by stopping production on the H2 doesn't hold water. You have to remember, Hasselblad also makes digital backs in single (CF-22/CF-39) and multi-shot (CF-22MS/CF-39MS) capture. These backs cannot go on an H3D, just as Phase Leaf or Sinar can't. Hasselblad's very own digital backs will not go on H3D. What would Hasselblad put these on if H2's stopped production?
Incidentally, I am a dealer, and I am not "deeply concerned" as Michael states.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
www.ppratlanta.com
Dealer for Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar
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i have a hard time believing that hasselblad is loosing money with their camera division. they must have sold more H1/2s since their introduction then anticipated....they released it pretty much at the same time everybody else disappeared....every rental house in the US bought complete kits...every photographer looking into that direction got one...almost no competition....when hasselblad decided to make the H1, i don't think they could have anticipated its success...so it must have made them money...their backs are a different story, but they must be able to keep their costs down with the backs, since the backs are always about one generation/year behind phase/leaf...the H3D/Cf39 is a P45/A75...which are being phased out by their companies...does not mean that these backs are not good (just like a P25 is still more then anyone really needs)...but if you get into the game, you know that your back will be upgraded within a year, so you want to have the latest technology...
anyway, after reading these forums one must wonder why contax ever went out of business...i never heard of anyone owning a contax when they were still alive..now that they are dead, people complain how much they have to pay for a finder on ebay!
personally i don't like the H1/2, but most people do and there is no reason to not buy a H1/2 now and use a phase or leaf back with it. service won't be a problem. if one is happy with the current lens-line up, no problem! maybe now is the time to buy a H1/2..people are jumping ship...
captureintegration just sent me an email with a list of demo backs (aptus, leaf and imacon), most of them for H1 mount..unbelievable prices...with the 3year warranty...made me consider a H1/2 for a second (a brief second)...nothing wrong with a system like that...should pay for itself within 3 years after which you still have a working, serviceable system...what more does anyone want...
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i have a hard time believing that hasselblad is loosing money with their camera division. they must have sold more H1/2s since their introduction then anticipated....they released it pretty much at the same time everybody else disappeared....every rental house in the US bought complete kits...every photographer looking into that direction got one...almost no competition....when hasselblad decided to make the H1, i don't think they could have anticipated its success...so it must have made them money...their backs are a different story, but they must be able to keep their costs down with the backs, since the backs are always about one generation/year behind phase/leaf...the H3D/Cf39 is a P45/A75...which are being phased out by their companies...does not mean that these backs are not good (just like a P25 is still more then anyone really needs)...but if you get into the game, you know that your back will be upgraded within a year, so you want to have the latest technology...
anyway, after reading these forums one must wonder why contax ever went out of business...i never heard of anyone owning a contax when they were still alive..now that they are dead, people complain how much they have to pay for a finder on ebay!
personally i don't like the H1/2, but most people do and there is no reason to not buy a H1/2 now and use a phase or leaf back with it. service won't be a problem. if one is happy with the current lens-line up, no problem! maybe now is the time to buy a H1/2..people are jumping ship...
captureintegration just sent me an email with a list of demo backs (aptus, leaf and imacon), most of them for H1 mount..unbelievable prices...with the 3year warranty...made me consider a H1/2 for a second (a brief second)...nothing wrong with a system like that...should pay for itself within 3 years after which you still have a working, serviceable system...what more does anyone want...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81418\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Paul:
P45's and A75's are not being phased out. In fact they are in the process of being modified to shoot faster, etc. because new chips are at least a year out, if not longer. And there's a fee for that, but it's the same chip. And the H3D uses the same chip as the H2D-39, which was introduced late last year.
I don't know if Hasselblad will be introducing any "Plus" or "S" models, which enhanced speed, buffering, etc. with the Phase and Leaf product. With the integration of the H3D, optimization may not always require paying for a new back or upgrade. The latest firmware download eliminated any buffering on the H2D/H3D whether shooting tethered or un-tethered (at least up to a minute - that's as long as we tested).
Steve
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
www.ppratlanta.com
Dealer for Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar
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"There is a lot of speculation there without any hard fact on your part."
Regretably I am not in a position to be able to share publicly certain information. But, knowing what I do, I am confident of my statements, otherwise I wouldn't make them here.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81404\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well thats not good enough really. You can't say something as fact when it involves Hasselblad.. when it appears you have no direct contact with them?
And I'm not alone. Their entire dealer network is deeply concerned about it as well. Speak to a few dealership owner/managers to see what I mean.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81404\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Come on old Fruit! Can you really say that you spoke to every dealer from London to Bombay and interviewed them on the merits or otherwise of the H3D and strategy?
Or do you class 'entire' as the USA only? Well us peeps in the ROW might be a little peeved about that.
Well on your exhaustive interview process you must have missed out my dealer as he seems more than happy. He also used to sell Phase One. So perhaps if I pass on his telephone number you could post up the dialogue of your conversation for us all to take a look at?
Plus the fellow Steve Hendrix who has been commenting doesn't seem overly worried. A few initial concerns maybe until he gets to talk to his rep but I don't see him being overly generous to either of the brands he sells... Just impartial as any good dealer should be.
Jo x.
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I have been silently listening to all this misdirected rumours, inuendo & ..... There is old adage "Offense is best defense". I attended Phase One Roadshow this year and Michael is shown thru' Video as a very prominant spokesperson tooting virtues of Phase One & he is entitled to his opinion. In past Michael has posted often that he tried very hard to get the backs & cameras from Hasselblad to run side by side tests and they just did not supply him with newer models. May be Hasselblad don't consider him as totally unbiased!!!....
Unless Phase One is very succesful with Mamiya and can knock Hasselblad off the perch, I as a consumer would be more worried @ Phase One's financial long term & not Hasselblad's.
Remember the back is only as good as the photographer. We all know there are a LOT of Hasselblad users, they have their Forums and are quitely minding their own business & making a hell of a profit too. The 800# gorrilla has been in this forum & we all are very aware that all this commotion of "Hassey, You done me wrong song" is only precursor to what phase one has to do with the cards THEY are holding, as Hassey's cards are already on table, time will tell, whether Phase One can survive. I like Hasselblad, Phase One, Leaf... they are just the wheels on my car, but it is the driving ability that makes the race worthwhile & not the negetive P.R. All the political commercials we are getting (south of the border, the biggest consumer of M.F), which talk only about bad things of their opponent and not what they are planning to offer. So Michael, as YOU are the insider to Phase One, & YOU will AGAIN be going on your Antarctica trip with your PhaseOne buddies, instead of telling us how bad Hasselblad is, why not tell us what Phase One is going to offer to us, the true paying customer. Enuf of negetive, I just want to shoot better pictures than I shot yesterday. Sorry for the long rant, but it is still shorter than this rant of the topic.
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This came in my email today, maybe it IS time to take a look myself??? I'm sure there are other events going on accross the country and around the world, let's take the time to see for ourselves and talk to the hasselblad reps in person.
Come and See What Everyone Is Talking About!
Hasselblad will be launching the new H3D digital camera system at several locations in the New York City area. Take one of these opportunities to learn about this revolutionary new product. In addtion to the launch events at our dealer locations, Hasselblad will host a demonstration center during the PhotoPlus Expo on Friday November 3rd from 10:00am -3:00pm. This demo center will be setup at Splashlight Studios
Dealer Launch Event schedule:
FotoCare
Oct. 23rd - 10am-4:00pm
136 W. 21st Street
New York NY 10011
phone: 212-741-2990
Professional Graphics
Oct. 24th - 10am-4:00pm
1333 Broadway, Suite 1112
New York, NY 10018
phone: 212-244-3538
Photo Village
Oct. 25th - 12:00pm-6:00pm
1133 Broadway, Suite 824
New York, NY 10010
phone: 212-989-1252
Kurland Photo
Oct. 26th - 11:00am-5:00pm
670 Broadway, Suite 501
New York, NY 10012
phone: 212-475-7799
Professional Graphics
Oct. 30th - 10am-4:00pm
3 West Main Street
Elmsford, NY 10523
phone: 800-344-0855
Hasselblad PhotoPlus Demonstration Center
Friday, November 3rd -10:00am-3:00pm
Splashlight Studios
529-535 West 35th Street
New York, NY 10001
To learn more about the H3D click on the link below.
H3D Product Info <http://newsmailservice.com/s.asp?0832361045221440400889161>
We look forward to seeing you at one of these exciting product launch events.
Best Regards,
Hasselblad USA
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So where does that leave me? Commercially I cannot wait for the Hy6. Unless that is it will take an H or Mamiya mount back when it eventually comes on the market?
The Hy6 will have a totally new mount with a digital interface.
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The Hy6 will have a totally new mount with a digital interface.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81465\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Sinar/Eyelike backs have a change able interface for £600 they will work now with Mam/Contax/H1/HV and in the future another adapter plate will become available for the Hy
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The Hy6 will have a totally new mount with a digital interface.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81465\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Thanks Graham for your reply.
Gosh, another new interface complicates matter even more. So am I right in saying that the Hy6 will not be able use any Phase or Leaf back produced today or in the past? (Unless the back is very new and Phase for example, will swop it within the first year).
Steve
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another new interface complicates matter even more.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81476\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I am not sure of the exact situation this is what I think
Phase and leaf backs are re-engineerable at the factory for some 1000s of $ and months of downtime
Sinar/Eyelike backs have adapter plates for all current systems ($1000 + three screws) a sinar plate will become available for the HY6 in time
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This is the same situation as now for a phase/leaf owner how wants to change from H1 to Mamiys etc
For me this has always been the winning USP for sinar/eyelike backs
I always had my eye on puchasing the first camera to have decent multipoint AF so didnt want to tie myself into hassy because I didnt know who it would be - lucky for me
Incidentally Sinar Eye like uses a 'foil stack' that allows one to 'tune' the focus plane of your back to the mirror plane of the individaul body (once per foil stack - a dealer operation)
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I am not sure of the exact situation this is what I think
Phase and leaf backs are re-engineerable at the factory for some 1000s of $ and months of downtime
Sinar/Eyelike backs have adapter plates for all current systems ($1000 + three screws) a sinar plate will become available for the HY6 in time
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This is the same situation as now for a phase/leaf owner how wants to change from H1 to Mamiys etc
For me this has always been the winning USP for sinar/eyelike backs
I always had my eye on puchasing the first camera to have decent multipoint AF so didnt want to tie myself into hassy because I didnt know who it would be - lucky for me
Incidentally Sinar Eye like uses a 'foil stack' that allows one to 'tune' the focus plane of your back to the mirror plane of the individaul body (once per foil stack - a dealer operation)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81477\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
FIY: Sinar DOES NOT plan to close their system to other backs. This was informed officially at Photokina. Unlike Hasselblad, it will be possible to mount/use other backs on the Hy6. Does make the system very more attractive than the Hassel.
Aon
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Remember the back is only as good as the photographer. We all know there are a LOT of Hasselblad users, they have their Forums and are quitely minding their own business & making a hell of a profit too. The 800# gorrilla has been in this forum & we all are very aware that all this commotion of "Hassey, You done me wrong song" is only precursor to what phase one has to do with the cards THEY are holding, as Hassey's cards are already on table, time will tell, whether Phase One can survive. I like Hasselblad, Phase One, Leaf... they are just the wheels on my car, but it is the driving ability that makes the race worthwhile & not the negetive P.R. All the political commercials we are getting (south of the border, the biggest consumer of M.F), which talk only about bad things of their opponent and not what they are planning to offer. So Michael, as YOU are the insider to Phase One, & YOU will AGAIN be going on your Antarctica trip with your PhaseOne buddies, instead of telling us how bad Hasselblad is, why not tell us what Phase One is going to offer to us, the true paying customer.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81445\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Wow Sean thats a great summary!
I can not understand Michaels rantings and if I were him I would be cautious of publicly claiming that a compay like Hasselblad are in huge debt!!! I dont know what laws exist in your country but here I would be seriously considering my comments before posting. Will he enlighten us as to phase one or leafs current financial situation?
This is indeed a heavily weighted thread and as was pointed out there are many Hasselblad users either remaining silent or happily continuing their cyber life on other forums.
My 132 back like other current hasselblad backs will fit on many platforms and I would not be worried until they pull the plug on stand alone backs.
Take a chill pill Mike
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Ok, let's stop talking about tomorrow's H back - how good is today's H back compared to the competiiton ?
Edmund
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Gosh, another new interface complicates matter even more. So am I right in saying that the Hy6 will not be able use any Phase or Leaf back produced today or in the past? (Unless the back is very new and Phase for example, will swop it within the first year).
Yes, Leaf and Phase One backs will have to be swapped for the right mount, but as I understand it Phase One is very interested in this platform so I hope that means they will make it easy for existing users.
As has already been stated, Sinar, Jenoptik and even Imacon backs have adaptable mounts. Will be interesting to see whether Imacon provides Hy6 mount adapters!
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I'll say this once, and then will have nothing further to add.
My comments about Hasselblad's financial situation are based on clear and unequivocal statements made by the company's CEO. I have discussed this in private correspondance with Steve, because he was the first to query it, but I will not say anything further publicly. The facts of the matter remain, and I stand by them.
As for my comment about dealers being upset, and did I speak to dealer from Bombay to wherever – actually yes, I did. In the four days that I was at Photokina I had the opportunity to speak with more than a few Hasselblad dealers from the USA, Canada, Europe and Australia. Every one that I spoke with worried about the wisdom of Hasselblad's new strategic plan. Does this mean that every dealer in the world has this concern? No, of course not. I'm sure that some will think it a great idea, just like Hasselblad management does. But I feel confident that when I say that many dealers are concerned, this is a fair representation of the mood of a great many dealers in October, 2006.
As for my "friends" at Phase One. Get over it! Anyone who knows my writing knows that I have a personal friendship with that company's US VP Sales. This has little to nothing to do with his role at Phase One. Yes, I own a Phase One back. I have to own one brand or another, right? The reason that I do has more to do with the excellent decade-long relationship that I have with Vistek, my local dealer in Toronto, than with Kevin or the company itself. In fact I only met Kevin after I purchased my first Phase back. So, if I have any bias, it's toward a strong local dealer, a must have when you're buying $50,000 worth of medium format gear.
I also have a good relationship with the European Sales Manager for Leaf and various people at Kodak and Dalsa. I have been out shooting with them more than once, and have actually written more in the past year about the Aptus 75 than about the P45. Does that make me biased toward Leaf? I've also written that if I didn't already own a P45 I'd be more than pleased to own an Aptus 75. Bias. Yes. I'm biased toward good equipment regardless of the brand name.
As for any bias I may have against Hasselblad – nonsense. I own an H1, an H2 and four HC lenses. I use them continiously and find the camera to be the most precise and enjoyable to use of any medium format camera that I've ever owned. Just look at the Home Page photograph today, and over the past months. I've also stated here, and elsewhere on this site, that I have nothing but praise for Hasselblad's handling of the problem I had when one of my HC lenses malfunctioned while I was in Africa earlier this year. They responded quickly and professionally, and I've said so several time publicly.
No. My problem is not with Hasselblad the product, or Hasselblad the company. My concerns are regarding the strategic business direction that the company's management has recently announced. I think that it is wrong headed, and ultimately not in the best interest of either past or future customers, of which I am one. If nothing else my ownership of the product and high regard for its qualities gives me the right to express my concerns.
Michael
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I'll say this once, and then will have nothing further to add.
My comments about Hasselblad's financial situation are based on clear and unequivocal statements made by the company's CEO.
Michael
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81494\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Correct. I was there and heard those statements. I think Michael has probably got them in video. As I remember it, Hasselblad/Imacon had serious financial problems, they are now in a strong uptrend with good sales, but are still left with some debt. Hasselblad have been very open about their financials.
Edmund
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Correct. I was there and heard those statements. I think Michael has probably got them in video. As I remember it, Hasselblad/Imacon had serious financial problems, they are now in a strong uptrend with good sales, but are still left with some debt. Hasselblad have been very open about their financials.
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81498\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
My problem with the statement was that debt only paints one side of a picture. The fact is despite the debt of Hasselblad, they are indeed a profitable company. And to portray that Hasselblad is choosing what Michael sees as a losing business strategy because of concern over the debt only leads to more distortion.
Leaf, Phase One, Hasselblad and Sinar. All these companies strive to make the best product they can to improve their financial situation. There is plenty of negative information about the financials of these companies that could be spilled on this page. Hasselblad is doing nothing different than any of these companies would do to enhance profitability. Michael doesn't agree that their choice of strategy is wisest. But that has nothing to do with their debt position.
And throwing that out there, only leads to inaccurate conclusions like the one drawn by Steve (zzzone). No offence meant, Steve.
"I was amazed that Hasselblad was losing so much money as stated above."
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
www.ppratlanta.com
Dealer for Leaf, Hasselblad, Sinar
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These camera discussions can get so passionate.
I've seen it and become involved with it on other boards and honestly it makes no sense to me, unless you have a reason.
Obviously Steve sells Imacon/Hasselblad and wants the story to be as correct as possible . As far as Michael's ties with Phase, only he can answer if that leads to bias or not.
It's funny I own two Aptus'' or is it Apti and through the early days of working through some of the issues, I have become friends with some of the people at Leaf.
If you asked me which is the best back I would say Leaf, if you asked me if I was unbiased towards Leaf I would say defiantly not.
That's just the way humans are built, we always have bias towards the people we know and trust and we develop a bond with the tools we use, especially when our end product is also a passionate endeavor.
In regards to medium format cameras, there has never been a perfect one, in fact 35mm consumer cameras have always had more features and were easier to use than any medium format camera, at any price.
Personally, I think you decide on cameras and backs with separate thoughts.
The camera is as much what it allows me to do as much as what it won't allow me to do. I went with a Contax because it allows me a lot of lens choices and the lens are generally a stop faster than most leaf shutter lenses.
I then select a back as I would a film and in most cases a film and a lab combined. The Leaf just gave me more lab options and it turns out currently my lab of choice is Adobe's Raw Converter.
It's not that my decision was the only right decision, it just was the only right decision for me.
With this in mind it doesn't really matter to me what Hasselblad, Rollei or Mamiya does. Medium format cameras, even out of date ones last a long time.
Contax has been gone for what . . . 2 years and if needed I can rent lenses and bodies in almost any market in the world, large and small, with no worry about what firmware the camera has installed.
Today I can buy anything (except the elusive waist level finder) for the Contax with the click of a credit card and have it tomorrow.
I assume that regardless of what Hasselblad does in the future H1/2's will also be on the market for years to come and work just as well in 5 years as they do now.
Even if tomorrow Leaf, Phase and Sinar stopped making backs for my Contax or an H-1 it won't stop me or anyone from shooting anything and I would imagine if that happened, all of the mfdb companies would make changing mounts a fairly fast and cost effective upgrade.
I think the most interesting part of this conversation is the overall direction.
One or two years ago this would be about Canon's vs. all medium format and now it's about mf backs and cameras. It shows me the professional market is growing and many people that got their digital feet wet with dslrs and are now shooting mature work with digital backs.
That is probably why we are told that digital back sales are on the increase.
If there is a market for an H3, a new HY6 maybe someone else will also step up and compete.
That's good for all of us.
JR
http://russellrutherford.com/ (http://russellrutherford.com/)
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Ok, let's stop talking about tomorrow's H back - how good is today's H back compared to the competiiton ?
Edmund
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81483\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Why don't you go see one for yourself?
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My Phase Dealer has told me that with the purchase a value added version of their backs you have one year to switch platforms at no charge.
They should really get that out there, because with the current developments in the MF camera arena it gives the photographer peace of mind.
Dg
I am not sure of the exact situation this is what I think
Phase and leaf backs are re-engineerable at the factory for some 1000s of $ and months of downtime
Sinar/Eyelike backs have adapter plates for all current systems ($1000 + three screws) a sinar plate will become available for the HY6 in time
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This is the same situation as now for a phase/leaf owner how wants to change from H1 to Mamiys etc
For me this has always been the winning USP for sinar/eyelike backs
I always had my eye on puchasing the first camera to have decent multipoint AF so didnt want to tie myself into hassy because I didnt know who it would be - lucky for me
Incidentally Sinar Eye like uses a 'foil stack' that allows one to 'tune' the focus plane of your back to the mirror plane of the individaul body (once per foil stack - a dealer operation)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81477\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Hasselblad did a really poor job of communicating what they're doing. When most photographers see "full frame" they get a big lump in their throat because they think "No, it can't be. Is it? Is it finally the full-frame sensor?" And Hasselblad should have know this.
But to be technically specific, yes, it is the "world's first 48mm full frame DSLR camera system".
Meaning, when you look through the viewfinder, you will see a 100% view of a 48mm frame (or 49mm, since they're using the Kodak chip - still haven't sorted that out ). And the lenses that will be made specifically for this camera will be spec'd to fit a 48mm capture area.
This Thursday I will be looking at an H3D and getting a closer handle on it. Perhaps some more clarifications will emerge. If any do, I'll post em.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
Hi
What do you mean by this? The Mamiya ZD that I own does not have crop marks in the view finder and it is a DSLR.
Thanks Denis
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Hasselblad did a really poor job of communicating what they're doing. When most photographers see "full frame" they get a big lump in their throat because they think "No, it can't be. Is it? Is it finally the full-frame sensor?" And Hasselblad should have know this.
But to be technically specific, yes, it is the "world's first 48mm full frame DSLR camera system".
Meaning, when you look through the viewfinder, you will see a 100% view of a 48mm frame (or 49mm, since they're using the Kodak chip - still haven't sorted that out ). And the lenses that will be made specifically for this camera will be spec'd to fit a 48mm capture area.
This Thursday I will be looking at an H3D and getting a closer handle on it. Perhaps some more clarifications will emerge. If any do, I'll post em.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
Hi
What do you mean by this? The Mamiya ZD that I own does not have crop marks in the view finder and it is a DSLR.
Thanks Denis
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=81570\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Denis:
The Mamiya ZD does indeed have a "full-frame" viewfinder. But there is not (currently) a Mamiya lens system made for the 48mmx36mm sensor. That's the difference. Actually, Hasselblad so far, only has one lens for the system - the 28mm, but more are sure to follow. But you probably could make an argument that the ZD is the world's first, although until they announce plans or product releases that include lenses, it's not really as complete a system as an H3D. I'll leave that to Hasselblad and Mamiya to sort out.
I could also note that I can't say Mamiya has the world's first full-frame 48mm DSLR camera, because it's not available in the whole world yet, only select parts of it. We're Mamiya dealers, based in the United States and still await the arrival of the ZD.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
www.ppratlanta.com
Dealers for Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar
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I just read Michael's rant. DSLR simply means digital single lens reflex. The Hassy is certainly a DSLR. I think it's silly to suggest that there's some kind of vernacular use of DSLR that makes Hasselblad's terminology misleading. The target market for a Hassleblad can grasp such simple concepts, and cut through marketing hype too.
And I'm baffled by the suggestion that Hassleblad's introduction of a closed system camera is somehow illegal. Nobody makes such a suggestion in regard to Canon, Nikon, and every other smaller format DSLR that's built around a fixed sensor. The suggestion this is like limiting the user to one type of film is absurd (or is that a jab at the capabilities of all 35mm and APS-C non-modular cameras?) Hasselblad's dedicated back is at the very least more flexible in that it is modular. Yes, they obviously intend that you will have to buy any upgraded future back from Hassy. I can certainly understand that current and potential Hasselblad digital users would be very displeased by their move to a closed system. Stick with the real complaint.
It seems to me that the other back manufacturers should either have their own camera production alliances in the works if they wish to survive the decade.
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******EDIT: Everybody seems to be taking this post wrong. I'm just trying to answer bjnicholls' post immediately above. I'm NOT saying that Hasselblad should be brought up on antitrust charges! I personally think that the marketplace should be left alone to sort this out on its own.
******END OF EDIT
And I'm baffled by the suggestion that Hassleblad's introduction of a closed system camera is somehow illegal.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82570\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I don't know about the exact law being referenced here, but it is parallel to "tying contracts." A tying contract is where a company requires you to buy product "B" in order to buy product "A", even though product "A" is separate from, and useful without product "B". A classic example of a tying contract was heard by the USSC about 20-25 years ago in Fairchild Semiconductor v. Data General Corporation, or some similar title as that.
Data General manufactured a minicomputer known as the "Nova", for which they also sold operating system software. The license agreement for the software required that it be used only on a computer sold by Data Genera.
Fairchild Semiconductor brought to market a single-chip microcomputer that executed the same instruction set as the Nova minicomputer. Data General refused to sell operating system software to Fairchild's customers to run on Fairchild's microcomputer.
Litigation ensued. The US Supreme Court ruled that Data General's restriction was an illegal "tying contract", and that they had to sell unbundled operating system software to Fairchild's customers on the same terms as they sell it to customers of their Nova minicomputers.
I'm not a lawyer, and don't know if facts of the Hasselblad sitution are similar enough to the facts of the DG case for it to apply. Also, the law is of course different in different countries. From comments here, it sounds like the E.U. also has antitrust laws that might or might not apply to this situation.
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Who cares, if Hassy wants to intoduce a closed system and you object, them don;t buy it. I really can't figure some of you out, do you have nothing else to do then whine like old women?
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Who cares, if Hassy wants to intoduce a closed system and you object, them don;t buy it. I really can't figure some of you out, do you have nothing else to do then whine like old women?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82611\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This is the only the second, completely candid response to the Hasselblad H3D, closed system, the sky is falling phenomenon. The first was the guy who said anyone who bought a Mamiya camera was a zit faced girley man who took wedding photographs for a living. (I assume he was kidding, but I do think he hit a raw nerve.)These guys really cut to the chase.
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Who cares, if Hassy wants to intoduce a closed system and you object, them don;t buy it. I really can't figure some of you out, do you have nothing else to do then whine like old women?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82611\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I thought that I was simply answering a question. I didn't realize I was whining like an old woman.
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I don't know about the exact law being referenced here, but it is parallel to "tying contracts." A tying contract is where a company requires you to buy product "B" in order to buy product "A", even though product "A" is separate from, and useful without product "B". A classic example of a tying contract was heard by the USSC about 20-25 years ago in Fairchild Semiconductor v. Data General Corporation, or some similar title as that.
Data General manufactured a minicomputer known as the "Nova", for which they also sold operating system software. The license agreement for the software required that it be used only on a computer sold by Data Genera.
Fairchild Semiconductor brought to market a single-chip microcomputer that executed the same instruction set as the Nova minicomputer. Data General refused to sell operating system software to Fairchild's customers to run on Fairchild's microcomputer.
Litigation ensued. The US Supreme Court ruled that Data General's restriction was an illegal "tying contract", and that they had to sell unbundled operating system software to Fairchild's customers on the same terms as they sell it to customers of their Nova minicomputers.
I'm not a lawyer, and don't know if facts of the Hasselblad sitution are similar enough to the facts of the DG case for it to apply. Also, the law is of course different in different countries. From comments here, it sounds like the E.U. also has antitrust laws that might or might not apply to this situation.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82597\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Not to agree or disagree. But i feel the case with hasselblad is more of a patent situation, where camera makers have always been allowed to and had patents on their lensmounts, I think Hasselblad could and should be able and allowed to patent their rear H-mount for DB FB etc. Also Firmware to drive a specific attachable part (like a lens, rear mount etc.) is somewhat different in purpose from an operating system, where the firmware cannot hawe software installed on it (third party or otherwise) the operating system does just this, allow software (original or third party) to be installed and used.
Any thoughts on this? And does anyone know if Hasselblad has patents on parts of (or the whole) H-system?
-axel
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Not to agree or disagree. But i feel the case with hasselblad is more of a patent situation, where camera makers have always been allowed to and had patents on their lensmounts, I think Hasselblad could and should be able and allowed to patent their rear H-mount for DB FB etc. Also Firmware to drive a specific attachable part (like a lens, rear mount etc.) is somewhat different in purpose from an operating system, where the firmware cannot hawe software installed on it (third party or otherwise) the operating system does just this, allow software (original or third party) to be installed and used.
Any thoughts on this? And does anyone know if Hasselblad has patents on parts of (or the whole) H-system?
-axel
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82632\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
This raises the whole issue of using patents on connecting hardware or enabling software to lock out the suppliers of compatible products ie allowing only Apple licensed peripherals on iPods. Or of allowing only Microsoft licensed software on Microsoft operating systems.
The strange thing is, anyone not a lawyer doesn't really understand the state of play here.
Edmund
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While I welcome a lively debate on this importsnt topic, personal attacks are not permitted here.
Everyone is requested to pause before hitting the send button, and ask themselves – would I still say this to the person if we were sitting across a table from each other?
Please keep the dialog civil.
Michael
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While I welcome a lively debate on this importsnt topic, personal attacks are not permitted here.
Everyone is requested to pause before hitting the send button, and ask themselves – would I still say this to the person[span style=\'font-size:14pt;line-height:100%\'] if we were sitting across a table from each other?[/span]
Please keep the dialog civil.
Michael
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=82659\")
Michael,
Unfortunately many people would say it if they were invisible.
That is the problem with aliases.
Given that I somewhat agree with Mr., Mrs, Ms., Miss, Dr?. Ghost Dancer,
Why does anyone care what hasselblad does and why is anyone suprised that they would try to devise a way to move people to their backs?
Maybe I don't care because I don't like or use their cameras but I still don't see the issue as there are other options.
Eveyrone complains about Contax prices going up, but they would have to triple from current levels to reach the price of a new H-1/2 system.
Still, Hasselblad is way behind in sales to Leaf and Phase and must do something to catch up.
Actually I'm surprised anyone that doesn't use an Imacon back moved to the H-1, unless they defanetly need a faster flash sync, which I find a non issue with digital backs as you can drop the iso down to 25 or 50.
I see this all the time, people sold their Contax systems thinking the H2 was better then mised the ranges of lenses, the Contax offered as well as the lens speed, plus the tens of thousands of dollars they spent to make the move. Many now regret it.
Mr., Ms., Miss, Mrs., Dr.? Phaque Name compared the Mamiya 645 to a pimply faced kid nobody wants, but in most of my world I find that to be true. I have yet to find someone that could stand the feel of the Mamiya 645 and the lenses, regardless if they are sharp or not. Also the AFDII has a lot of reports of error messages (much like the hasselblad) when using digital backs. I guess that is why Mamiya is now offering a firmware fix.
One of the camera dealers posted here that the reason Contax went of out business is because they didn't have a digital solution. I disagree with that as I believe Contax lost interest because they didn't invest in their 645 system, by adding some leaf shutter lens and some other improvements to keep interest in the line.
Actually Contax did have the first full frame digital camera of any format with the D-1 , [a href=\"http://www.dpreview.com/news/0007/00071801contaxn1digital.asp]http://www.dpreview.com/news/0007/00071801...axn1digital.asp[/url] but it had some design issues and I guess that amount of R+D expense with low sales probably did a lot of damage.
Kind of reminds me of Hasselblad.
JR
http://www.russellrutherford.com/ (http://www.russellrutherford.com/)
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One of the camera dealers posted here that the reason Contax went of out business is because they didn't have a digital solution. I disagree with that as I believe Contax lost interest because they didn't invest in their 645 system, by adding some leaf shutter lens and some other improvements to keep interest in the line.
Actually Contax did have the first full frame digital camera of any format with the D-1 , http://www.dpreview.com/news/0007/00071801...axn1digital.asp (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0007/00071801contaxn1digital.asp) but it had some design issues and I guess that amount of R+D expense with low sales probably did a lot of damage.
Kind of reminds me of Hasselblad.
JR
http://www.russellrutherford.com/ (http://www.russellrutherford.com/)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82669\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Actually, Contax's unsuccessful attempt to go digital does not remind me of Hasselblad. It reminds me of Mamiya. The Contax digital attempt referenced above is indeed what put them out of business, rather than loss of interest, or any lack of improvements in the line. As you've effectively illustrated, the Contax 645 is an extremely robust product line. But in the medium format world, a robust film camera product line won't keep you in the black.
When a medium format camera company is not selling enough film cameras - natch - and tries to produce a digital camera, the cost is enormous in terms of R&D, etc. The fact it took nearly 3 years to get that camera to market, combined with the fact that it was a flop, killed Contax. Lots of R&D funds spent, very little revenue coming in from film camera sales, product gets delivered too late to be competitive, has design problems, flops, whoops, no revenue, goodbye company.
That sounds like Mamiya, not Hasselblad. Hasselblad did not take 3 years to get to market and one can debate whether they match Leaf or Phase, but their product has a much higher level of success than the Contax N Digital or the Mamiya ZD, and I believe the H3D will expand on that success. Mamiya is really the company I'm concerned about at this point.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
www.ppratlanta.com
Dealer for Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar
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and one can debate whether they match Leaf or Phase, but their product has a much higher level of success than the Contax N Digital or the Mamiya ZD, and I believe the H3D will expand on that
PPR Digital
www.ppratlanta.com
Dealer for Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82678\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Well, the debate is decided by the marketplace and as of today Hasselblad digital back sales are at the best #3 though their Camera sales are probably #1 in medium format, so that says something.
Actually, other than I find the conversation interesting, I have zero vested interest in this, as I don't sell cameras or backs but knowing only what I read, Hasselblad, Mamiya and HY6 or whatever the company is now named would do themselves a world of good if they would produce a frequenly asked question page with real ansers.
1. Will hasselblad continue to support 3rd party back with the H2 and continue H2 production?
2. Will hasselblad lock out 3rd party backs from new lens offerings and if you buy a new 35mm blad lens next year will it work with an H2 and a 3rd party back?
3. Does Mamiya still produce 645AFDII, and RZ67s and will they support them with continued digital interface's and upgrades.
4. Who actually owns HY6, what is the complete new lens line, will 6008 lenses work on it, when will it be introduced and btw what is the suggested retail price?
All of these companies websites and thier respective dealers are high on flash value and very low on real information, hence everytime somebody introduces something new, my Contax cameras look better and better.
JR
P.S. In fact Steve, do you have any real information that Mamiya is in trouble? This sounds much like what Michael wrote about Hasselblad you took offense with, especially since he made a statement that he couldn't "really" divulge his sources.
That the problem with all digital, the rumors and it makes me wonder hwo anyone ever sells anything. Today their are promises of Plus series this, S series that, new cameras, old cameras with new alliances, new cameras not produced, but made by one company, bought by another etc., etc.,
I finally came to the conclusion that none of the digital companies can make a camera that lives up to the initial hype. Leaf software promises, wi-fi on both phase and leaf, better lcd's even Nikon execs keep floating a full frame hint, probably just to sell another zoom lens.
The only thing for a photographer to do is find something that works, find your own workarounds and stop worrying about what any of these companies do, because none of them will ever deliver what is on thier sales pdf and if all of them can change their direction in a hearbeat.
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Hi James
I have no information at all that Mamiya are in trouble. The only worry is if they were we would probably be the last to know!!
All of this is particularly interest to me right now, hence the AFD11 vs H2 thread running at the moment I started. If Contax were still around I would probably have purchased that. If Hasselblad were to continue to support third party backs I would buy that. But they are not (?) so I am left with the Mamiya BUT will they be around. I don't know.
All I can say in response to your comment is that at Photokina the guys on the Mamiya stand looked like they were a week or two later and should have been there for a different exhibition! Their product knowledge was zero. The focus on the AFD I looked at there was on Continuous. I think they call it AI Servo on the Canon. Not one of the four guys there knew how to change it!! Other exhibitors at Photokina were commenting about this as well. It could be poor training by Mamiya but it did make me wonder whether they are close to the end. The ZD looks fantastic value but how long and where is it in the States??
I reiterate that I honestly have no knowledge and don't want to spread any rumour. Read between the lines as you will. My worry is after gazing in the crystal ball, I buy the Mamiya, they go out of business like Contax and Hasselblad continues to support the Phase back I have just ordered. This business is difficult enough without this ----- to deal with!!!
All the very best
Steve Townsend
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Yes, the Photokina presence of Mamiya was a joke. However, do I see Mamiya advertising, a bit, in the Japanese photo press about their new 28mm lens and the ZD. The ZD is selling decently over here in Europe, indeed I think it's outselling anything else in digital MF. Let's face it, the ZD now has the reputation of a reasonably priced product that actually works.
I don't know whether Mamiya is doing well, but they have two fully working bodies out there getting revenue through an established channel, new lens stock still seems to be selling, and the ZD can probably now be fairly easily upgraded to a new sensor thereby providing a predictable new product path. Within the Japanese environment where predictability counts and loans are cheap, I cannot see anyone pulling th plug on Mamiya right now if they are breaking even.
Edmund
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Wow! There's been a lot of traffic here since I posted about the Data General case.
I want to make it clear that the reason I posted that information was to give a little bit of an answer to bjnicholls' question about how Hasselblad's actions might be illegal. I happen to be familiar with that case because I was involved with similar circumstances around the same time, so I related that case so bjnicholls could get some idea of the sort of things that might come up in Hasselblads' case.
I didn't and don't make any judgement as to whether the DG case would directly apply to Hasselblad's situation. The facts are different, the law has likely changed since then, and it would take a lawyer deeply involved with antitrust law to sort all that out.
All that said, my personal moral judgement is that it would be wrong to force Hasselblad to continue to support their competitors against their will. I think what they are doing to their customers does a terrible disservice to the customers, and I think they will suffer in the marketplace because of it. But I think it would be an evil for a government to step in to force them to do things differently.
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Well, the debate is decided by the marketplace and as of today Hasselblad digital back sales are at the best #3 though their Camera sales are probably #1 in medium format, so that says something.
Actually, other than I find the conversation interesting, I have zero vested interest in this, as I don't sell cameras or backs but knowing only what I read, Hasselblad, Mamiya and HY6 or whatever the company is now named would do themselves a world of good if they would produce a frequenly asked question page with real ansers.
1. Will hasselblad continue to support 3rd party back with the H2 and continue H2 production?
2. Will hasselblad lock out 3rd party backs from new lens offerings and if you buy a new 35mm blad lens next year will it work with an H2 and a 3rd party back?
3. Does Mamiya still produce 645AFDII, and RZ67s and will they support them with continued digital interface's and upgrades.
4. Who actually owns HY6, what is the complete new lens line, will 6008 lenses work on it, when will it be introduced and btw what is the suggested retail price?
All of these companies websites and thier respective dealers are high on flash value and very low on real information, hence everytime somebody introduces something new, my Contax cameras look better and better.
JR
P.S. In fact Steve, do you have any real information that Mamiya is in trouble? This sounds much like what Michael wrote about Hasselblad you took offense with, especially since he made a statement that he couldn't "really" divulge his sources.
That the problem with all digital, the rumors and it makes me wonder hwo anyone ever sells anything. Today their are promises of Plus series this, S series that, new cameras, old cameras with new alliances, new cameras not produced, but made by one company, bought by another etc., etc.,
I finally came to the conclusion that none of the digital companies can make a camera that lives up to the initial hype. Leaf software promises, wi-fi on both phase and leaf, better lcd's even Nikon execs keep floating a full frame hint, probably just to sell another zoom lens.
The only thing for a photographer to do is find something that works, find your own workarounds and stop worrying about what any of these companies do, because none of them will ever deliver what is on thier sales pdf and if all of them can change their direction in a hearbeat.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82681\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
The marketplace does indeed determine the debate, and Hasselblad (Imacon) has certainly been playing catch-up. They have their work cut out for them. But in the digital era, a product can very quickly have a sudden impact - either negatively or positively - with regard to market share. Leaf is a good example of a company that had not been dominant for some time until the Aptus. Nikon was on shaky ground until they pushed the D2X out there, now sales have turned around dramatically for them. Time will tell regarding acceptance of Hasselblad's digital product.
James, you're dead-on regarding communication from these companies. Communication is either beneficial or not. These companies have an opportunity to communicate effectively, and all fail miserably. Some communicate poorly, and others not at all. Either way, it harms them.
Regarding Mamiya, I do not have any information that they are in trouble. I was only making the point that the same business model and the same attempt to slavage their future has so far gone along very similar paths to Contax, and that worries me. I am not making any claim about Mamiya's financial condition - they could be rolling in money right now. As a Mamiya dealer, we anticipated a successful ZD product years ago, and the fact that they are still not available in the US market 3 years after an announcement is worrisome enough, regardless of their financial condition.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
www.ppratlanta.com
Dealer for Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar
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Hi James
I have no information at all that Mamiya are in trouble. The only worry is if they were we would probably be the last to know!!
All of this is particularly interest to me right now, hence the AFD11 vs H2 thread running at the moment I started. If Contax were still around I would probably have purchased that. If Hasselblad were to continue to support third party backs I would buy that. But they are not (?) so I am left with the Mamiya BUT will they be around. I don't know.
All I can say in response to your comment is that at Photokina the guys on the Mamiya stand looked like they were a week or two later and should have been there for a different exhibition! Their product knowledge was zero. The focus on the AFD I looked at there was on Continuous. I think they call it AI Servo on the Canon. Not one of the four guys there knew how to change it!! Other exhibitors at Photokina were commenting about this as well. It could be poor training by Mamiya but it did make me wonder whether they are close to the end. The ZD looks fantastic value but how long and where is it in the States??
I reiterate that I honestly have no knowledge and don't want to spread any rumour. Read between the lines as you will. My worry is after gazing in the crystal ball, I buy the Mamiya, they go out of business like Contax and Hasselblad continues to support the Phase back I have just ordered. This business is difficult enough without this ----- to deal with!!!
All the very best
Steve Townsend
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=82693\")
Steve Townsend,
Thanks for the information.
I was actually refering to Steve Hendrix because he got in a hissy fit when someone mentioned that Hasselblad was in trouble, so I found it rather ironic that he would bring up Mamiya has troubles without stating some facts. Just the facts man.
Still, no photographer really gives a damn about any of this the way the dealers, seminar givers or camera makers care about this. They make money off all this talk and that's what 95% of it is . . talk and rumors.
Hell in LA some people still shoot features with old Arri's and Maxwells and nobody is worried about it and no one sits down in a movie theatre and says, "I think that scene was shot with an old BL".
Photography is about art not cameras and this stuff is all about selling us more stuff only to sell us some more stuff.
I get as lured in as the rest, but if Hasselblad, Mamiya and HY whatever left tomorrow there would be something I could earn a living with, probably these Contax cameras.
Edmund,
The Mamiya may be a real camera that works but by all accounts doesn't work that well and I've yet to hear anyone in the U.S. that uses one.
I saw one in Japan a few weeks ago the the retailer knew nothing about it, other than the price.
JR
[a href=\"http://www.russellrutherford.com/]http://www.russellrutherford.com/[/url]
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Steve Townsend,
Thanks for the information.
I was actually refering to Steve Hendrix because he got in a hissy fit when someone mentioned that Hasselblad was in trouble, so I found it rather ironic that he would bring up Mamiya has troubles without stating some facts. Just the facts man.
Still, no photographer really gives a damn about any of this the way the dealers, seminar givers or camera makers care about this. They make money off all this talk and that's what 95% of it is . . talk and rumors.
Hell in LA some people still shoot features with old Arri's and Maxwells and nobody is worried about it and no one sits down in a movie theatre and says, "I think that scene was shot with an old BL".
Photography is about art not cameras and this stuff is all about selling us more stuff only to sell us some more stuff.
I get as lured in as the rest, but if Hasselblad, Mamiya and HY whatever left tomorrow there would be something I could earn a living with, probably these Contax cameras.
Edmund,
The Mamiya may be a real camera that works but by all accounts doesn't work that well and I've yet to hear anyone in the U.S. that uses one.
I saw one in Japan a few weeks ago the the retailer knew nothing about it, other than the price.
JR
http://www.russellrutherford.com/ (http://www.russellrutherford.com/)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82704\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
James - FYI - the facts are all I've stated.
Regarding Mamiya, I do not have any information that they are in trouble. I was only making the point that the same business model and the same attempt to slavage their future has so far gone along very similar paths to Contax, and that worries me. I am not making any claim about Mamiya's financial condition - they could be rolling in money right now. As a Mamiya dealer, we anticipated a successful ZD product years ago, and the fact that they are still not available in the US market 3 years after an announcement is worrisome enough, regardless of their financial condition.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
www.ppratlanta.com
Dealer for Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar
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I get as lured in as the rest, but if Hasselblad, Mamiya and HY whatever left tomorrow there would be something I could earn a living with, probably these Contax cameras.
Edmund,
The Mamiya may be a real camera that works but by all accounts doesn't work that well and I've yet to hear anyone in the U.S. that uses one.
I saw one in Japan a few weeks ago the the retailer knew nothing about it, other than the price.
JR
http://www.russellrutherford.com/ (http://www.russellrutherford.com/)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82704\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
James,
Even if all they were making were Brownie Box cameras, I'm sure you'd still be making a living with them - was it you or Melvin who told the story of those Polaroid Swinger prints ?
My take on this is that there are TWO currently made cameras which I both find cruddy, and there is a third (Contax) which is well-recommended but doesn't make much commercial sense over here. Strangely, brand M lenses and bodies are available everywhere used cheap or rental, brand H are horribly expensive.
Compare this to the 35 mm arena where Canon basically keep their promises and I am amazed that professionals put up with this nonsense -
As for the ZD, why don't you borrow one and shoot it ? I'd be curious as to what you think.
Edmund
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James - FYI - the facts are all I've stated.
Regarding Mamiya, I do not have any information that they are in trouble. I was only making the point that the same business model and the same attempt to slavage their future has so far gone along very similar paths to Contax, and that worries me. I am not making any claim about Mamiya's financial condition - they could be rolling in money right now. As a Mamiya dealer, we anticipated a successful ZD product years ago, and the fact that they are still not available in the US market 3 years after an announcement is worrisome enough, regardless of their financial condition.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
www.ppratlanta.com
Dealer for Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=82705\")
Steve,
My point is that is all anybody hears about this stuff is rumor, conjecture or problems.
If you are a new potential buyer of medium format you just shake your head and believe it's impossible to buy a camera.
I've let photographers use my Leaf/Contax and come back amazed that the cameras and back worked, after reading all the reports online.
When in reality, using my Leaf backs and my contax's I don't have any real issues, jams, CA, centerfold, colorcasts. Actually none.
Your a Sinar and Leaf dealer. If someone walked in today with cash in hand and wanted to buy a Sinar HY6 and a Leaf Aptus S series, you can't sell them, or even tell them when they will be available.
If someone wants to buy an H2 can you assure them that H2's will be made in a year, or the new lenses will even work on an H2?
My real point is for you it's an issue, maybe for Michael Reichman and his friend Mr. Raber it's an issue, but for a working photographer it's not an issue, we are just told by the people writing this dribble that it's an issue.
It's funny that for about 10 grand I can double my Contax system, throw it in a closet and use my two Leaf backs probably forever, becasue the Leaf file will work in Photoshop so I assume it will work in photoshop for a long time.
Then again I'm not in the business of getting my gallery show sponsored by Canon, or Hasselblad or giving a slide show to a bunch of guys with Viking hats.
I really doubt if Contax is going to be writing any checks, so for me it's just about what I can do with the cameras that are available today and why should I care if it comes from KEH or B+H.
It's all the same to me except what I buy at KEH costs less.
Still, for the potential buyer you would think there wasn't a camera that they could buy and use if you read and listen to the reports of the HY6, hasselblad and Mamiya.
You would also think that for many unless they can have the newest and the latest they can't take a photograph.
This week I used the A-22 and a Canon because both did different things very well. If the A-22 becomes an A whatever and Canon comes out with a 1ds Mark whatever it doesn't change the fact that what I use today will work well tomorrow.
It's really not my business what any photographer uses for equipment but if someone asked, I'd say buy something that works today, that is available today and use it until the paint falls off.
I wouldn't get caught up in the wait for a better lcd, wireless or software promises that never really seem to be completely fullfilled and let somebody else cut themself up on the bleeding edge.
JR
[a href=\"http://www.jamesrussellphotography.com]http://www.jamesrussellphotography.com[/url]
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If someone wants to buy an H2 can you assure them that H2's will be made in a year, or the new lenses will even work on an H2?
Hi James
That is a strange question from a man that use Contax.
Why should someone worry about if H2 will be made 2 years from now if
it works today. Just using your own logic,
And it it is not that many more different lenses made for Contax than H2.
And if there are no more lenses made for H2 - there will
surtenly not be made more lenses for Contax!
Willow
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Instead of waiting for new to appear, what about going with used tried and true? Much of the MF announcements is "vapor talk" by an ever shifting set of alliances!
So to me at least, there one important question. What is the current repair experience with Mamiya, Contax and H2. What MF systems are at least repairable now and likely for the next several years?
Proven backs new or used are always available. So are used Contax or H1 and H2 bodies.
So which bodies would be best for repair at this time?
Asher Kelman
http://www.openphotographyforums.com (http://www.openphotographyforums.com)
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Steve,
My point is that is all anybody hears about this stuff is rumor, conjecture or problems.
http://www.jamesrussellphotography.com (http://www.jamesrussellphotography.com)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82708\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
James -
That point is completely relevant and I think just about everyone on this board shares the same opinion.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
www.ppratlanta.com
Dealer for Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar
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James -
That point is completely relevant and I think just about everyone on this board shares the same opinion.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
www.ppratlanta.com
Dealer for Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82728\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Steve:
Here is one data point that is not conjecture because this is what I was quoted. The H3D-39 with a prism and an 80mm lens is $28k, with the trade in of any old MF camera body(a Holga will do). An Aptus 75+ or Phase P45+ with an H2, the prism and the 80mm lens is $38,500. No doubt, the $10,500 price difference may not be great in practical terms if the H3D simply does not work effectively for you, but it sure is a reason to look seriously at whether the H3D CAN work for you as well as the Aptus or the Phase, which is really what this discussion ought to about, rather than whether Hasselblad has violated the antitrust laws. (Not personal, Steve.) These are two real choices available now in the market
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4. Who actually owns HY6, what is the complete new lens line, will 6008 lenses work on it, when will it be introduced and btw what is the suggested retail price?
Yes, the 6008 lenses will work. Expect to see it end of Q2 2007.
All of these companies websites and thier respective dealers are high on flash value and very low on real information
P.S. In fact Steve, do you have any real information that Mamiya is in trouble?
Iirc, Mamiya sold off its camera division a few months ago to Cosmos Scientific Systems so the real question is: is CSS in trouble?
The only thing for a photographer to do is find something that works, find your own workarounds and stop worrying about what any of these companies do, because none of them will ever deliver what is on thier sales pdf and if all of them can change their direction in a hearbeat.
That seems to be true of the last 3 years or so but it wasn;t always like this. I sincerely hope this is just a short adjustment phase.
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Steve:
Here is one data point that is not conjecture because this is what I was quoted. The H3D-39 with a prism and an 80mm lens is $28k, with the trade in of any old MF camera body(a Holga will do). An Aptus 75+ or Phase P45+ with an H2, the prism and the 80mm lens is $38,500. No doubt, the $10,500 price difference may not be great in practical terms if the H3D simply does not work effectively for you, but it sure is a reason to look seriously at whether the H3D CAN work for you as well as the Aptus or the Phase, which is really what this discussion ought to about, rather than whether Hasselblad has violated the antitrust laws. (Not personal, Steve.) These are two real choices available now in the market
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82730\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Ok, everyone keeps getting me confused with Steve Kerrman. I have not had any involvement in any posts regarding anti-trust this or that. That's the other Steve.
However, with regard to your point, I'm in agreement. In general, I would say that this industry has more than it's share of issues that are FUBAR. Photographers have to deal with it, and so do dealers. It's not fun. And it's real easy to get caught up in all that. But the bottom line remains: find equipment that you feel confident about and let it work for you.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
www.ppratlanta.com
Dealer for Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar
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What is the current repair experience with Mamiya, Contax and H2. What MF systems are at least repairable now and likely for the next several years?
Asher Kelman
http://www.openphotographyforums.com (http://www.openphotographyforums.com)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82726\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I wouldn'tknow about contax repair - with two bodies, almost all the lenses, both view finders, battery packs and film, plus now switching backs for Kodak to P25 to P45 (and lots of back and forth, beach, mountain tops and snow)
nothing seems to have broken,
With any of the three, so called 'dead' systems you have tonnes of supply. $700 waist finders? sounds like the new price for the H3D wouldnt be much different!
What is strange is all the hand wringing
I can't even get too excited about closed systems. The H3D? I expect IQ is pretty good, no use wondering why you can't have a Phase back on a H3D with contox finder and Silkypix firmware any more than you can buy a mercedes with a jaguar engine and a BMW steering system.
Explain the problem with this logic (I would love to know, so I can correct my think LOL)
Decide which system gives best IQ and workability
Decide if you can afford it
Decide if it is reliable (dead companies means nothing as long as you can use it for 10 years or more)
Buy it
I have a Phase with Contax 645 and a whole mess of lovely glass and thousands of images, only limited by ME!
In the meantime, what are YOU shooting, while waiting for the ideal solution? (not aimed at Asher, who asked a very sensible question. :-)
Victor
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Instead of waiting for new to appear, what about going with used tried and true? Much of the MF announcements is "vapor talk" by an ever shifting set of alliances!
So to me at least, there one important question. What is the current repair experience with Mamiya, Contax and H2. What MF systems are at least repairable now and likely for the next several years?
Proven backs new or used are always available. So are used Contax or H1 and H2 bodies.
So which bodies would be best for repair at this time?
Asher Kelman
http://www.openphotographyforums.com (http://www.openphotographyforums.com)
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82726\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I've never heard of a Contax going down, but I have heard of people breaking them.
Nippon and Metro in Manhattan repairs contax, Ace in Flushing.
JR
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I've never heard of a Contax going down, but I have heard of people breaking them.
Nippon and Metro in Manhattan repairs contax, Ace in Flushing.
JR
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82793\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Dear James
After all these years Ilikely should CLA some of my Contax 645 and Hasselblad CF lenses. Can you recommend someone?
Thanks in advance
Victor
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Steve:
Here is one data point that is not conjecture because this is what I was quoted. The H3D-39 with a prism and an 80mm lens is $28k, with the trade in of any old MF camera body(a Holga will do). An Aptus 75+ or Phase P45+ with an H2, the prism and the 80mm lens is $38,500. No doubt, the $10,500 price difference may not be great in practical terms if the H3D simply does not work effectively for you, ...
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82730\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
umm, these figures aren't remotely right. a P45+ with an H2 body/80/prism kit should not set you back anything like $38,500. The real world price difference with a H3D39 is more like $2300. Quite acceptable if you prefer Phase software and the + series better screen/noise. there's really not much in it.
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Top post James. Right on the nail.
I've been using my P25 for over 2 years now on my H1 and it is great. It will take as good pictures in 5 years time as it did when I bought it, unless I drop it or do something stupid. My photography has improved in leaps and bounds since I made the 'second mortgage' investment. The moral is that MF digital is here, working well, and has been for some time. I don't see anything on the horizon to change that. I've had the benefit of excellent kit for some time now and I use it with a freedom that doesn't reflect the price tag. It's a great working tool that has served me well for the past 45,000 frames and I expect to get another 100,000 frames before the camera needs replacing. Like my car, i'll trade in before it gets unreliable.
Damien.
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Top post James. Right on the nail.
I've been using my P25 for over 2 years now on my H1 and it is great. It will take as good pictures in 5 years time as it did when I bought it, unless I drop it or do something stupid. My photography has improved in leaps and bounds since I made the 'second mortgage' investment. The moral is that MF digital is here, working well, and has been for some time. I don't see anything on the horizon to change that. I've had the benefit of excellent kit for some time now and I use it with a freedom that doesn't reflect the price tag. It's a great working tool that has served me well for the past 45,000 frames and I expect to get another 100,000 frames before the camera needs replacing. Like my car, i'll trade in before it gets unreliable.
Damien.
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a] (http://index.php?act=findpost&pid=82804\")
I believe for every post of issues and cost with medium format there are probably 1000's of users that get the results of Damien, they're just not vocal about it.
None of these systems are perfect and waiting on the perfect system gets you nowhere.
Looking for a lower cost alternative really goes nowwhere either, though cost is not really the issue anymore if you use your camera and back a lot.
Investment is the key to success in any business and it takes time and money to get it right.
Most of the stories I hear about problems on set, or issues with digital come from photographers and digital techs that didn't fully know the systems they were using, or were not familiar enough with the camera/back/software to know how to quickly fix any glitch that could come up.
Knowing this, I prefer to say just 1/2 step back on buying new equipment. It seems all of the digital world delivers product before it is 100% mature.
JR
[a href=\"http://www.russellrutherford.com/]http://www.russellrutherford.com/[/url]
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umm, these figures aren't remotely right. a P45+ with an H2 body/80/prism kit should not set you back anything like $38,500. The real world price difference with a H3D39 is more like $2300. Quite acceptable if you prefer Phase software and the + series better screen/noise. there's really not much in it.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82801\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No, I believe HCubbell is correct. But it bears confirming. If you use listed price, then an H3D-39 (with the medium format camera trade-in) is $28,995. An H2 camera kit will run $7,999. If the P45 is $29,995, then you're at $37,994. Unless the price of a P45 is listed as lower or there is some promo that reduces the price, $9,000 is the list price delta.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
www.ppratlanta.com
Dealer for Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar
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No, I believe HCubbell is correct. But it bears confirming. If you use listed price, then an H3D-39 (with the medium format camera trade-in) is $28,995. An H2 camera kit will run $7,999. If the P45 is $29,995, then you're at $37,994. Unless the price of a P45 is listed as lower or there is some promo that reduces the price, $9,000 is the list price delta.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
www.ppratlanta.com
Dealer for Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82827\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Steve: just to be sure we are comparing apples to apples, does the $28,995 list price for the H3D-39 include a 3 yr. warranty, and is $29,995 the list for the P45+ with the 3 year warranty?
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Steve: just to be sure we are comparing apples to apples, does the $28,995 list price for the H3D-39 include a 3 yr. warranty, and is $29,995 the list for the P45+ with the 3 year warranty?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82840\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hasselblad does not publish a 3 year warranty price as a package - it's treated as a separate line item. 3 year warranty on H3D-39 adds $5,000 ($2,500 per year). That covers the entire solution, including camera, and is a Hot Swap warranty. My understanding has been that top of the line Phase One backs normally sell for $29,995 with one year warranty and $32,995 with 3 year warranty.
I was using the one year warranty as a model. At the 3 year warranty, the gap closes a bit because Phase One only charges $3,000 for the extra two years, although that doesn't cover the camera.
Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital
www.ppratlanta.com
Dealer for Leaf, Hasselblad and Sinar
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I got to see and test the H3D this past week in NYC. Made files both indoors and out. Shot the H3D / HC80 side by side with Leaf Aptus 75 on Contax/Zeiss 80, Phase P45 on H2/ HC80. Each camera was tripod mounted, same exposure same focal length lens.
The images from all three are so good that I would bet a weeks salary that NO ONE can tell the difference. Color on the H3D was outstanding.
Phaquer, do yourself a favor, get some sleep and stop stressing over the Contax 645. Get something that works and enjoy life.
Dancin on the other side.
Hoka Hay
Aho
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I got to see and test the H3D this past week in NYC. Made files both indoors and out. Shot the H3D / HC80 side by side with Leaf Aptus 75 on Contax/Zeiss 80, Phase P45 on H2/ HC80. Each camera was tripod mounted, same exposure same focal length lens.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=82860\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Aho... can you upload the results of this testng of the three camara backs to your websight....
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Been wading my way through this thread, on and off, over the last two days.
A lot to ponder and I have a couple of questions.........
1. I am getting the impression that the Hy6 is perceived as some kind of panacea due to its 'open source' approach to other manufacturers digital backs. This stance seems to be taken most fervently by those who would like to see Hasselblad given a bloody nose. My question is this........hasn't the Mamiya RZ provided this solution for years? What difference will the Hy6 make?
2. Having tried the Hassie CF-39MS and spoken to some who own one, its killer app, for me, (I am very close to buying one) is multi-shot.
I haven't tried either the 54-H or the Evolution75H, both of which can be used with the Mamiya (again why the Hy6 fuss?) so I can't comment on their performance in MS relative to the Hassie. But, I don't like what I hear about Sinar's commercial stability and Sinar dealers are now like hen's teeth in my part of the world - another reason for me to be wary.
Factor in the on-back screen, which neither of the Sinar backs has and which is vital to me in day-to-day on location shooting, and I can't see any alternative, to be honest.
Yes, the 'closed' nature of the system is a pain for existing Hassie owners. I couldn't agree more. Fortunately, as with digital SLR (up to 3 years ago, I never owned a Canon camera. I was weaned on my beloved Olympus's - glorious glass!. Now I wouldn't part with my 5D for anything. In Mirror Up mode it is truly the equal of medium-format film, IMHO. But, I digress.........) I would be buying into Hassie for the first time. I have a shed load of Mamiya RB's and lenses - if I had made the switch to RZs earlier, I might think differently now about the Sinar backs. But, I didn't......
So, if you're in the market for the complete package of multi-shot, screen and lots of pixels, what's the alternative to Hassie?
Fantastic thread, by the way.
D.
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Dinarius,
Thank you for your perspective. I, too, was impressed with the demo of the 39MS and will consider it against the eVolution75.
Curious you're worried about the stability of Sinar. They are owned by the multi-billion dollar company Jenoptik, who are funding the R+D of the Hy6. Billion, not million (who else can make this claim?) makes them the most stable in my eyes.
Billy
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Dear Bill,
I didn't dare to mention this here: thanks for doing it for me!
Best regards,
Thierry
Curious you're worried about the stability of Sinar. They are owned by the multi-billion dollar company Jenoptik, who are funding the R+D of the Hy6. Billion, not million (who else can make this claim?) makes them the most stable in my eyes.
Billy
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113211\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Curious you're worried about the stability of Sinar. They are owned by the multi-billion dollar company Jenoptik, who are funding the R+D of the Hy6. Billion, not million (who else can make this claim?) makes them the most stable in my eyes.
Billy
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113211\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Billy,
Fair point. I guess that the unseemly politics of economics would like to see as little competition as possible.
I should also have written in my original post that I can buy Phase and Hassie less than 3km from where I'm typing this. To the best of my knowledge, I have to take a flight to buy Sinar. A great pity.
D.
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Correction:
I just realized Leaf is owned by multi-billion dollar corp. Kodak. AND, perhaps the owners of Hasselblad (Shiro?) have deep pockets as well.
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Sinar too, Billy!
Correction:
I just realized Leaf is owned by multi-billion dollar corp. Kodak. AND, perhaps the owners of Hasselblad (Shiro?) Have deep pockets as well.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113218\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Amusing how Phase is besting the others in sales and software development, doing so without a (rich) parent company.
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1. I am getting the impression that the Hy6 is perceived as some kind of panacea due to its 'open source' approach to other manufacturers digital backs. [snip]........hasn't the Mamiya RZ provided this solution for years? What difference will the Hy6 make?
The more open nature of the Hy6 is one benefit but I'm excited about a truly digital-ready body working with the great Rollei lenses. I also like the rotating back feature very much, and the fact that this allows one to use a waist-level finder in both landscape and portrait modes. I don't think any other camera offers this. The Rollei is also an established system with more accessories and lenses than the Hass H series.
Each to their own.
The Mamiya RZ is not a competitive solution mainly due to the high crop factor, no digital integration, and excessive size. Bellows focusing is not for everyone either.
I haven't tried either the 54-H or the Evolution75H, both of which can be used with the Mamiya (again why the Hy6 fuss?)
The Mamiya has no waist level finder, and a very slow flash sync speed of 1/125. Not for everyone.
But, I don't like what I hear about Sinar's commercial stability and Sinar dealers are now like hen's teeth in my part of the world - another reason for me to be wary.
In the age of overnight couriers, proximity to a dealer is not a big issue. I don't have a Sinar dealer in my country at all but can courier the back overnight to Sinar in Switzerland or the Jenoptik factory in Germany. Someone else has already answered the financial stability issue.
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I also like the rotating back feature very much, and the fact that this allows one to use a waist-level finder in both landscape and portrait modes. I don't think any other camera offers this. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113223\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hasn't a rotating back been Mamiya's unique selling point for over a quarter of a century?
The Mamiya RZ is not a competitive solution mainly due to the high crop factor, no digital integration, and excessive size. Bellows focusing is not for everyone either.
The Mamiya has no waist level finder, and a very slow flash sync speed of 1/125. Not for everyone.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113223\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
No waist level finder? Which camera are you talking about?
Digital integration? Isn't that what the RZ Pro SD 11D was introduced to deal with?
That said, your point about the crop factor is an issue. But, I guess it just means a shorter standard lens.
D.
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I also like the rotating back feature very much,....
Thierry and Yair,
The term "rotating" is misleading.
"Reversible" is more accurate. The only medium format SLR cameras with built-in rotating capability are Mamiya RZ/RB 6x7 and Fuji GX680.
Billy
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Hasn't a rotating back been Mamiya's unique selling point for over a quarter of a century?
The Mamiya 67 may have a rotating back, but that camera is out of the digital race. Btw, the Rollei 6000 cameras have had rotating backs for a long time. This is nothing unique to Mamiya. So of all the 'contenders', the Rollei is the only camera with waist level finder and rotating back.
No waist level finder? Which camera are you talking about?
I assumed you were talking about the Mamiya 645. Sorry.
That said, your point about the crop factor is an issue. But, I guess it just means a shorter standard lens.
It also means that the 50mm is your shortest rectilinear lens. Ouch.
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So that there is no further confusion, this is the Mamiya camera I am referring to.......
http://www.mamiya.com/cameras.asp?id=1&id2=2022 (http://www.mamiya.com/cameras.asp?id=1&id2=2022)
Out of the digital race? They don't seem to think so.
D.
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So that there is no further confusion, this is the Mamiya camera I am referring to.......
http://www.mamiya.com/cameras.asp?id=1&id2=2022 (http://www.mamiya.com/cameras.asp?id=1&id2=2022)
Out of the digital race? They don't seem to think so.
Which back makers support that interface directly? I'm not talking about a 'dumb' adapter which merely holds a back on and allows the back to work from the flash sync.
I don't think anyone does. Could be wrong.
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The Mamiya 67 may have a rotating back, but that camera is out of the digital race.
You've chosen the medium format camera that meets your needs for your photography. There's no need to convince others and yourself against other brands. I happen to use everything from Hasselblad 503cw, 555ELD + H1 to Mamiya RZ67II to Fuji GX680III...whatever suits the assignment as each one has their strengths. Believe me, here in NYC some top names are using RZ67 with digital for major editorial and advertising.
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Yes, absolutely right, Billy!
Thanks for mentioning it.
However, we are still looking into this and check the (mechanical) possibility/feasibility.
Regards,
Thierry
Thierry and Yair,
The term "rotating" is misleading.
"Reversible" is more accurate. The only medium format SLR cameras with built-in rotating capability are Mamiya RZ/RB 6x7 and Fuji GX680.
Billy
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113225\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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For the sake of completion...........
Here you can read about the Mamiya range and its compatability with various makes of back........
http://www.mamiya.com/products.asp?id=1&id2=166 (http://www.mamiya.com/products.asp?id=1&id2=166)
Click on >Compatability Chart.
Curiously, I don't see the 39Mp MS back mentioned. Or maybe I'm missing something. (Nor is the EV75 mentioned. But, it may be that the list simply needs updating.)
But, it is mentioned here in conjunction with the RZ>
http://www.hasselblad.com/media/890fe86e-d...cbb12-CF_UK.pdf (http://www.hasselblad.com/media/890fe86e-d85c-4295-9aa4-9705acfcbb12-CF_UK.pdf)
Scroll down to page 4.
D.
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Thierry,
It would be terrific if you're successful at implementing a true rotating interface like the RZ67 and GX680 method. I still get tense when I have to change between vertical and horizontal orientation when using Hasselblad 503cw/555ELD or view camera sliding adapter for fear of exposing the sensor to dust, or dropping the digital back. Of course, this issue evaporates once you offer a square sensored back .
Yes, absolutely right, Billy!
Thanks for mentioning it.
However, we are still looking into this and check the (mechanical) possibility/feasibility.
Regards,
Thierry
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113237\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Here you can read about the Mamiya range and its compatability with various makes of back........
Sorry but I think you missed my last post. Sure, you can stick a digital back on ANY medium format camera which uses film backs and use the flash sync socket to trigger the back. All you need is an adapter to hold the digital back in the right place. Even Bronicas can be used with digital backs in this way.
That is a very different scenario from digital integration, in which the camera and digital back communicate to give you seamless operation, exif data, etc.
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Of course, this issue evaporates once you offer a square sensored back .
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113245\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
But Billy, which would you rather?
a. 39Mp spread over a square chip, when you then spend your life cropping out precious pixels you have no use for?
or
b. The same 39Mp spread over a rectangular chip?
To me option b. is a no-brainer.
For that reason, a Hassie with a 6x4.5 back, giving all those extra frames of film, was always the smarter option, IMHO. One of the reasons I went for Mamiya all those years ago.
But, in today's digital world, making the best use of the available pixels is the way to go, I believe.
D.
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Which back makers support that interface directly? I'm not talking about a 'dumb' adapter which merely holds a back on and allows the back to work from the flash sync.
I don't think anyone does. Could be wrong.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113232\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
foto-z
I think you are wrong. I use a Mamiya RZ Pro IID (and a AFD II) with a Leaf Aptus 22 with the Mamiya interface plate.
The digital integration is exactly the same as on the AFD or H2. There are no cables between the back and the camera. All shooting information is communicated to the back; ISO, Exposure ecc. It is fully integated.
This works as well with any Phase back and every back that has the AFD interface.
For portrait and fashion work the RZ67 lenses are unbeatable and you can do close up focusing with any lens which is important with beauty work.
Sure the camera is big and heavy but I like it better than any SLR style MF camera and even with the crop mask the finder is big and bright.
RS
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Dinarius,
I didn't look at the links you provided as here are the reasons why I continue to use the RZ67 system:
- abundance of lenses in mint condition available on eBay for under $500. Exotic ones such as the 75mm short barrel and the 210mm APO fetch more.
- availability of lenses renting for $25 to $40 per day.
- availability of tilt shift adapter which is usable on more than just the 75mm + 180mm short barrel lenses when at jewelry magnification.
When I'm working + concentrated, I don't notice the ground glass being masked off when I look through the prism or waist-level finder, nor am I aware of an extra cable or two that's attached.
Lest I be accused of being a Mamiya fanboy, I'm not. I plan on purchasing into the Rollei system I know so well since the SLX days when the AFi/Hy6 is available.
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Billy,
yes, it would definitively be nice. But don't get me wrong: I said our techincians are studying the feasibility, which does not mean 1st: that it will at all be possible; 2nd: if yes, then it may not with ALL the sinarbacks which can be attached; 3rd: we will start shipping with the "non-rotating" adapters in any case (since those are ready).
Let's hope!
Thanks,
Thierry
Thierry,
It would be terrific if you're successful at implementing a true rotating interface like the RZ67 and GX680 method. I still get tense when I have to change between vertical and horizontal orientation when using Hasselblad 503cw/555ELD or view camera sliding adapter for fear of exposing the sensor to dust, or dropping the digital back. Of course, this issue evaporates once you offer a square sensored back .
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113245\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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I have posted since the RG days my preference for a 48mmx48mm size sensor. If one were to consider the 33MP Dalsa sensor as three 11MP slices at 12x48 each totalling 36x48, I believe that means my proposed 48x48 would be 44MP, preserving ISO performance and not placing extra demands on existing lenses.
But Billy, which would you rather?
a. 39Mp spread over a square chip, when you then spend your life cropping out precious pixels you have no use for?
or
b. The same 39Mp spread over a rectangular chip?
To me option b. is a no-brainer.
For that reason, a Hassie with a 6x4.5 back, giving all those extra frames of film, was always the smarter option, IMHO. One of the reasons I went for Mamiya all those years ago.
But, in today's digital world, making the best use of the available pixels is the way to go, I believe.
D.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113251\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
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Billy,
Ahah!
My misunderstanding.
Yes, 44Mp would be bundles of pixels, square or otherwise.
D.
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I think you are wrong.
Thanks for the correction. The other issues remain though - lack of wide angle and size. Obviously this isn't a problem for everyone!
I used to use an RZ67 with film and liked the quality back then.
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A question for those of you using the Mamiya RZ67 ProII D. Do digital backs - Phase One to
be more specific - revolve on the RZ in the same way as film backs (that is without being taken
off, rotated in hand and reattached)? If so, is this the case only with WLF or prism finder as well?
I've been receiving conflicting information from dealers.
Thank you in advance.
Richard
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A question for those of you using the Mamiya RZ67 ProII D. Do digital backs - Phase One to
be more specific - revolve on the RZ in the same way as film backs (that is without being taken
off, rotated in hand and reattached)? If so, is this the case only with WLF or prism finder as well?
I've been receiving conflicting information from dealers.
Thank you in advance.
Richard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113272\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
It doesn't matter which back you use. It is the adapter plate that rotates in place, just like the film back. No need to detach anything.
RS
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Just curious.........
If a 50mm lens would be the widest I could use, what would that equate to in 35mm terms when used with, say, the Hassie 39Mp back?
A 35mm lens? A 28mm lens?
Thanks.
D.
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Richard,
Be careful which adapter plate you purchase. You're safer getting the Phase plate if you use Phase. I wasn't able to attach a friend's V-mount P30 onto the RZ using the Mamiya plate that I normally use with Leaf Valeo/Aptus. The shape of the back's perimeter is different enough to prevent attachment.
Billy
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Just curious.........
If a 50mm lens would be the widest I could use, what would that equate to in 35mm terms when used with, say, the Hassie 39Mp back?
The ratio is different so it's not a direct comparison.
In terms of width (landscape), it's equivalent to 37.5mm in 135 terms.
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Richard,
Be careful which adapter plate you purchase. You're safer getting the Phase plate if you use Phase. I wasn't able to attach a friend's V-mount P30 onto the RZ using the Mamiya plate that I normally use with Leaf Valeo/Aptus. The shape of the back's perimeter is different enough to prevent attachment.
Billy
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113277\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Billy
The Mamiya adapter is AFD mount only. You cannot attach a V mount back to it. If you want to use the communication features with the Pro IID the only option is the AFD mount.
RS
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Billy
The Mamiya adapter is AFD mount only. You cannot attach a V mount back to it. If you want to use the communication features with the Pro IID the only option is the AFD mount.
RS
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113282\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
How about the RZ specific adapter plate hasselblad sells with their CF and CF-MS backs, does this not communicate with the body (there is a small cable depicted on it, and its not flash sync... so one would assume it does communicate?)
-axel
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Billy
The Mamiya adapter is AFD mount only. You cannot attach a V mount back to it. If you want to use the communication features with the Pro IID the only option is the AFD mount.
RS
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113282\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Universal V-mount to RZ adapter plate 903-596
I've been using one for several years dating back to the Leaf Valeo 11MP
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A question for those of you using the Mamiya RZ67 ProII D. Do digital backs - Phase One to
be more specific - revolve on the RZ in the same way as film backs (that is without being taken
off, rotated in hand and reattached)? If so, is this the case only with WLF or prism finder as well?
I've been receiving conflicting information from dealers.
Thank you in advance.
Richard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113272\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i use my P30 on mamiya 645afdII and the RZDII, with the phase adapter...no cables, the back rotates just like a film back, no taking off...works perfectly....
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Looking at the Hasselblad website, I see no mention in this data sheet>
http://www.hasselblad.com/media/890fe86e-d...cbb12-CF_UK.pdf (http://www.hasselblad.com/media/890fe86e-d85c-4295-9aa4-9705acfcbb12-CF_UK.pdf)
...of the CF22/39-MS backs in relation to the H3D camera, only in relation to the H2 camera.
Similarly, in the H3D data sheet, no mention is made of MS capability.
Similarly, this dealer, for example, is selling MS capability only with the H2 system>
http://www.pictureline.com/category.php?mid=32&cid=39 (http://www.pictureline.com/category.php?mid=32&cid=39)
Is it the case that no multi-shot capability is possible with the new H3 system?
If I want to invest in Hassie MS capability, am I therefore ruling out access to all future lens development (including the new 28mm)?
If so, then this really is total BS and I will be seriously considering alternatives. For the sake of an extra few grand, multi-shot capability is a no-brainer for someone in my line of work, but if I'm restricted to the H2 system as is, then..................!?
Please tell me I'm wrong.
D.
ps......have a look at this page.........
http://www.hasselblad.com/downloads/datasheets/h-system.aspx (http://www.hasselblad.com/downloads/datasheets/h-system.aspx)
Note the number of items with 'Discontinued' after them. Scary, or what?!
pps.....Why, oh why, can't Sinar put a screen on the Evolution 75H?
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Please tell me I'm wrong.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114827\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
I am sorry to inform you that you are perfecly right.
-axel
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I am sorry to inform you that you are perfecly right.
-axel
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114856\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Then is it any wonder that other contributors to this thread have reported disquiet and uncertainty on the part of some Hasselblad agents?
You really have to wonder about the wisdom of this move, strategically speaking. It is no surprise that, in an attempt to get people on board, they have been offering a free lens and hard case with the H3D basic kit.
On balance, the H2 + CF39-MS is still very tempting. But, shutting me out of future developments before I even enter the frame is moronic, to put it mildly.
On the other hand, the H3D could become the next 2000FC.
The latter is the more likely scenario, in my view. I just don't think that people will buy into this crap. This is the age of the internet and it's impossible to pull the wool over people's eyes.
D.
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Then is it any wonder that other contributors to this thread have reported disquiet and uncertainty on the part of some Hasselblad agents?
You really have to wonder about the wisdom of this move, strategically speaking. It is no surprise that, in an attempt to get people on board, they have been offering a free lens and hard case with the H3D basic kit.
On balance, the H2 + CF39-MS is still very tempting. But, shutting me out of future developments before I even enter the frame is moronic, to put it mildly.
On the other hand, the H3D could become the next 2000FC.
The latter is the more likely scenario, in my view. I just don't think that people will buy into this crap. This is the age of the internet and it's impossible to pull the wool over people's eyes.
D.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114884\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Dinarius:
You are potentially correct that lens additions may be at a dead-end for H1/H2 cameras.
However, if your application would benefit the most from multi-shot technology (as it seems to be from your post), why can't you purchase a CF-MS unit? You do not have to use it on an H2, it will go on almost any camera you want, which is the same case with the Sinar 75H. The only potential limitation is if you want it on the H2 platform, meaning that it appears future lens development may be HXD only, although this remains to be seen. It works perfectly fine on Mamiya, Contax, etc.
I suppose it's possible that future development of the H3D (H4D, etc) may include multi-shot technology, but it's also possible that the design plans for HxD don't easily accomodate that technology. In that case, Hasselblad will likley leave the multi-shot technology to CF-MS units, which, like the single shot CF backs, allow for complete flexibility for photographers to choose their system of choice, even allowing for use on multiple camera systems.
I don't understand your mention of the page with regards to "discontinueds". The only discontinued items are H1D and H2D, which have been discontinued by the emergence of the H3D.
Regarding the free lens and case, and the notion that Hasselblad has to do that to "get people on board" - I can tell you that all digital back manufacturers typically offer some type of "sweetener". And that H3D sales have boomed (at least for us) ever since the announcement of the product. We have many new customers only too happy to take advantage of what the technology offers.
For those who prefer not to use the H2 system (and it's potential limitations), we have successfully provided CF digital backs and CF-MS digital backs for their camera of choice.
Steve Hendrix
Profesional Photo Resources
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For those who prefer not to use the H2 system (and it's potential limitations), we have successfully provided CF digital backs and CF-MS digital backs for their camera of choice.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114915\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
..apart from an H camera that uses all of the H series lenses (the H3)
Blad are morons if even (and I am not sure about this) thier own current gear, the MS back, is locked out of the 3 series and the wide lense and any future ones
(45 rise/fall is what I want)
And who knows when the H2 will be discontinued
S
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Steve,
I have been using Mamiya RBs for nearly 25 years. Much and all as I love them, the glass isn't up to the mark in the digital world. Secondly, in order to avail of the multi-shot mode, I would have to switch to the RZ. While I could then use my RB lenses with the RZ body, this still wouldn't address the issue of inferior glass.
Therefore, even though replacing my 8 RB lenses with another manufacturer's equivalent is going to cost me a lot, I'm pretty much obliged to jump ship and switch. That's why I'm considering the H2 system.
Another possibility is to convert my Sinar P to a P3 and use the Hassie back with just that in MS mode. But, the H2 'kit' packages offered are probably a cheaper way in, albeit without any movements.
Thanks.
D.
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i am using contax 645 aswel as hassie H2 and must say that besides some beuatiful zeiss jena lenses and the hartblei super rotater lenses on the contax there is for myself nothing not to use the H2 hassie platform. The H2 is a robust, megasharp, completely adapted for digital camera. Once you found your way with the hassie, all other camer'a are like from an other millenium
I can understand that some people who not actually have the monney to buy the system always are looking for reasens to feel good not having H1/2/3 but this usually ends when they are in the system.
About the H3 MS limitation. So far it is only the 28mm ( and thats not the most used lens for MS) that limites the H2 user. However, MS is mostly used in studio and there we use technical camera such as the linhof or the P2/P3.
Just try the H wit MS and you will see.....
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Ixpressraf,
Many thanks. ;-)
Two questions.......Can you shoot multi-shot with the Contax?
Do you consider the current Hassie lenses to be as good as the Contax/Carl Zeiss lenses?
D.
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Ixpressraf,
Many thanks. ;-)
Two questions.......Can you shoot multi-shot with the Contax?
Do you consider the current Hassie lenses to be as good as the Contax/Carl Zeiss lenses?
D.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114970\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Hasselblad does have some very nice lenses such as the 50/110 100 210 50 and even the 35 is noth bad at all. The biggest plus is that when using a H2 body it corrects abberation, even the smallest automattically. Contax lenses are also far from perfect but are not corrected at all. In real life photography like i do people do not see the difference between a zeiss or hassie v/h lens but they tend to see sharp/unscharp matters, CA and other defaults.
You can do MS on the contax but micro step is more difficult because of the moving og the shutter. Hassie is much better equipted for this.
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ixpressraf,
That's extremely helpful.
One last question........
If you were choosing a lens from the Hassie range for copy work (shooting flat art for coffee-table books) which one would it be?
Thanks.
D.
ps.....Apologies to others for going slightly off-topic.
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ixpressraf,
That's extremely helpful.
One last question........
If you were choosing a lens from the Hassie range for copy work (shooting flat art for coffee-table books) which one would it be?
Thanks.
D.
ps.....Apologies to others for going slightly off-topic.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=114986\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
i would go for the macro HC ( or CF with adapter) or the 100 CF 3.5/ 100 2.2 HC
Although i do most of my " near" photography using an extention tube and the 50/110mm zoom wich gives suberb results to me. ( remember distorion is corrected extremely well using H lenses and a H2/3 body.)
Go for it, but slowly