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Author Topic: New H3D full frame!!!  (Read 116045 times)

thsinar

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« Reply #240 on: April 19, 2007, 06:51:46 am »

Dear Bill,

I didn't dare to mention this here: thanks for doing it for me!

Best regards,
Thierry

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Curious you're worried about the stability of Sinar.  They are owned by the multi-billion dollar company Jenoptik, who are funding the R+D of the Hy6.  Billion, not million (who else can make this claim?)   makes them the most stable in my eyes.

Billy
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« Last Edit: April 19, 2007, 06:58:05 am by thsinar »
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Thierry Hagenauer
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Dinarius

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« Reply #241 on: April 19, 2007, 07:14:57 am »

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Curious you're worried about the stability of Sinar.  They are owned by the multi-billion dollar company Jenoptik, who are funding the R+D of the Hy6.  Billion, not million (who else can make this claim?)   makes them the most stable in my eyes.

Billy
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Billy,

Fair point. I guess that the unseemly politics of economics would like to see as little competition as possible.

I should also have written in my original post that I can buy Phase and Hassie less than 3km from where I'm typing this. To the best of my knowledge, I have to take a flight to buy Sinar. A great pity.

D.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2007, 07:16:49 am by Dinarius »
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BJNY

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« Reply #242 on: April 19, 2007, 07:32:34 am »

Correction:
I just realized Leaf is owned by multi-billion dollar corp. Kodak.  AND, perhaps the owners of Hasselblad (Shiro?) have deep pockets as well.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2007, 07:47:09 am by BJNY »
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Guillermo

thsinar

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« Reply #243 on: April 19, 2007, 07:45:57 am »

Sinar too, Billy!

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Correction:
I just realized Leaf is owned by multi-billion dollar corp. Kodak.  AND, perhaps the owners of Hasselblad (Shiro?) Have deep pockets as well.
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Thierry Hagenauer
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BJNY

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« Reply #244 on: April 19, 2007, 07:51:12 am »

Amusing how Phase is besting the others in sales and software development, doing so without a (rich) parent company.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2007, 07:53:35 am by BJNY »
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Guillermo

Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #245 on: April 19, 2007, 07:53:41 am »

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1. I am getting the impression that the Hy6 is perceived as some kind of panacea due to its 'open source' approach to other manufacturers digital backs. [snip]........hasn't the Mamiya RZ provided this solution for years? What difference will the Hy6 make?

The more open nature of the Hy6 is one benefit but I'm excited about a truly digital-ready body working with the great Rollei lenses. I also like the rotating back feature very much, and the fact that this allows one to use a waist-level finder in both landscape and portrait modes. I don't think any other camera offers this. The Rollei is also an established system with more accessories and lenses than the Hass H series.

Each to their own.

The Mamiya RZ is not a competitive solution mainly due to the high crop factor, no digital integration, and excessive size. Bellows focusing is not for everyone either.

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I haven't tried either the 54-H  or the Evolution75H, both of which can be used with the Mamiya (again why the Hy6 fuss?)

The Mamiya has no waist level finder, and a very slow flash sync speed of 1/125. Not for everyone.

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But, I don't like what I hear about Sinar's commercial stability and Sinar dealers are now like hen's teeth in my part of the world - another reason for me to be wary.

In the age of overnight couriers, proximity to a dealer is not a big issue. I don't have a Sinar dealer in my country at all but can courier the back overnight to Sinar in Switzerland or the Jenoptik factory in Germany. Someone else has already answered the financial stability issue.
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Dinarius

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« Reply #246 on: April 19, 2007, 08:04:37 am »

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I also like the rotating back feature very much, and the fact that this allows one to use a waist-level finder in both landscape and portrait modes. I don't think any other camera offers this. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113223\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hasn't a rotating back been Mamiya's unique selling point for over a quarter of a century?




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The Mamiya RZ is not a competitive solution mainly due to the high crop factor, no digital integration, and excessive size. Bellows focusing is not for everyone either.
The Mamiya has no waist level finder, and a very slow flash sync speed of 1/125. Not for everyone.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113223\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

No waist level finder? Which camera are you talking about?

Digital integration? Isn't that what the RZ Pro SD 11D was introduced to deal with?

That said, your point about the crop factor is an issue. But, I guess it just means a shorter standard lens.

D.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2007, 08:05:02 am by Dinarius »
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BJNY

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« Reply #247 on: April 19, 2007, 08:15:13 am »

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I also like the rotating back feature very much,....

Thierry and Yair,
The term "rotating" is misleading.
"Reversible" is more accurate.  The only medium format SLR cameras with built-in rotating capability are Mamiya RZ/RB 6x7 and Fuji GX680.
Billy
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Guillermo

Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #248 on: April 19, 2007, 08:20:44 am »

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Hasn't a rotating back been Mamiya's unique selling point for over a quarter of a century?

The Mamiya 67 may have a rotating back, but that camera is out of the digital race. Btw, the Rollei 6000 cameras have had rotating backs for a long time. This is nothing unique to Mamiya. So of all the 'contenders', the Rollei is the only camera with waist level finder and rotating back.

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No waist level finder? Which camera are you talking about?

I assumed you were talking about the Mamiya 645. Sorry.

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That said, your point about the crop factor is an issue. But, I guess it just means a shorter standard lens.

It also means that the 50mm is your shortest rectilinear lens. Ouch.
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Dinarius

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« Reply #249 on: April 19, 2007, 08:35:19 am »

So that there is no further confusion, this is the Mamiya camera I am referring to.......

http://www.mamiya.com/cameras.asp?id=1&id2=2022

Out of the digital race? They don't seem to think so.


D.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2007, 08:36:13 am by Dinarius »
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #250 on: April 19, 2007, 08:54:16 am »

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So that there is no further confusion, this is the Mamiya camera I am referring to.......

http://www.mamiya.com/cameras.asp?id=1&id2=2022

Out of the digital race? They don't seem to think so.

Which back makers support that interface directly? I'm not talking about a 'dumb' adapter which merely holds a back on and allows the back to work from the flash sync.

I don't think anyone does. Could be wrong.
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BJNY

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« Reply #251 on: April 19, 2007, 08:58:25 am »

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The Mamiya 67 may have a rotating back, but that camera is out of the digital race.

You've chosen the medium format camera that meets your needs for your photography.  There's no need to convince others and yourself against other brands.  I happen to use everything from Hasselblad 503cw, 555ELD + H1 to Mamiya RZ67II to Fuji GX680III...whatever suits the assignment as each one has their strengths.  Believe me, here in NYC some top names are using RZ67 with digital for major editorial and advertising.
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Guillermo

thsinar

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« Reply #252 on: April 19, 2007, 08:59:13 am »

Yes, absolutely right, Billy!
Thanks for mentioning it.

However, we are still looking into this and check the (mechanical) possibility/feasibility.

Regards,
Thierry

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Thierry and Yair,
The term "rotating" is misleading.
"Reversible" is more accurate.  The only medium format SLR cameras with built-in rotating capability are Mamiya RZ/RB 6x7 and Fuji GX680.
Billy
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« Last Edit: April 19, 2007, 09:01:33 am by thsinar »
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Thierry Hagenauer
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Dinarius

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« Reply #253 on: April 19, 2007, 09:21:44 am »

For the sake of completion...........

Here you can read about the Mamiya range and its compatability with various makes of back........

http://www.mamiya.com/products.asp?id=1&id2=166

Click on >Compatability Chart.

Curiously, I don't see the 39Mp MS back mentioned. Or maybe I'm missing something. (Nor is the EV75 mentioned. But, it may be that the list simply needs updating.)

But, it is mentioned here in conjunction with the RZ>

http://www.hasselblad.com/media/890fe86e-d...cbb12-CF_UK.pdf

Scroll down to page 4.

D.
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BJNY

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« Reply #254 on: April 19, 2007, 09:44:18 am »

Thierry,
It would be terrific if you're successful at implementing a true rotating interface like the RZ67 and GX680 method.  I still get tense when I have to change between vertical and horizontal orientation when using Hasselblad 503cw/555ELD or view camera sliding adapter for fear of exposing the sensor to dust, or dropping the digital back.  Of course, this issue evaporates once you offer a square sensored back .

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Yes, absolutely right, Billy!
Thanks for mentioning it.

However, we are still looking into this and check the (mechanical) possibility/feasibility.

Regards,
Thierry
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Guillermo

Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #255 on: April 19, 2007, 09:52:40 am »

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Here you can read about the Mamiya range and its compatability with various makes of back........

Sorry but I think you missed my last post. Sure, you can stick a digital back on ANY medium format camera which uses film backs and use the flash sync socket to trigger the back. All you need is an adapter to hold the digital back in the right place. Even Bronicas can be used with digital backs in this way.

That is a very different scenario from digital integration, in which the camera and digital back communicate to give you seamless operation, exif data, etc.
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Dinarius

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« Reply #256 on: April 19, 2007, 09:54:51 am »

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Of course, this issue evaporates once you offer a square sensored back .
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113245\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

But Billy, which would you rather?

a. 39Mp spread over a square chip, when you then spend your life cropping out precious pixels you have no use for?

or

b. The same 39Mp spread over a rectangular chip?

To me option b. is a no-brainer.

For that reason, a Hassie with a 6x4.5 back, giving all those extra frames of film, was always the smarter option, IMHO. One of the reasons I went for Mamiya all those years ago.

But, in today's digital world, making the best use of the available pixels is the way to go, I believe.

D.
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RSPhoto

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« Reply #257 on: April 19, 2007, 10:13:00 am »

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Which back makers support that interface directly? I'm not talking about a 'dumb' adapter which merely holds a back on and allows the back to work from the flash sync.

I don't think anyone does. Could be wrong.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=113232\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

foto-z

I think you are wrong. I use a Mamiya RZ Pro IID (and a AFD II) with a Leaf Aptus 22 with the Mamiya interface plate.
The digital integration is exactly the same as on the AFD or H2. There are no cables between the back and the camera. All shooting information is communicated to the back; ISO, Exposure ecc. It is fully integated.
This works as well with any Phase back and every back that has the AFD interface.
For portrait and fashion work the RZ67 lenses are unbeatable and you can do close up focusing with any lens which is important with beauty work.
Sure the camera is big and heavy but I like it better than any SLR style MF camera and even with the crop mask the finder is big and bright.


RS
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BJNY

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« Reply #258 on: April 19, 2007, 10:13:39 am »

Dinarius,
I didn't look at the links you provided as here are the reasons why I continue to use the RZ67 system:
- abundance of lenses in mint condition available on eBay for under $500.  Exotic ones such as the 75mm short barrel and the 210mm APO fetch more.
- availability of lenses renting for $25 to $40 per day.
- availability of tilt shift adapter which is usable on more than just the 75mm + 180mm short barrel lenses when at jewelry magnification.

When I'm working + concentrated, I don't notice the ground glass being masked off when I look through the prism or waist-level finder, nor am I aware of an extra cable or two that's attached.

Lest I be accused of being a Mamiya fanboy, I'm not.  I plan on purchasing into the Rollei system I know so well since the SLX days when the AFi/Hy6 is available.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2007, 10:19:04 am by BJNY »
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Guillermo

thsinar

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« Reply #259 on: April 19, 2007, 10:26:11 am »

Billy,

yes, it would definitively be nice. But don't get me wrong: I said our techincians are studying the feasibility, which does not mean 1st: that it will at all be possible; 2nd: if yes, then it may not with ALL the sinarbacks which can be attached; 3rd: we will start shipping with the "non-rotating" adapters in any case (since those are ready).

Let's hope!

Thanks,
Thierry

Quote
Thierry,
It would be terrific if you're successful at implementing a true rotating interface like the RZ67 and GX680 method.  I still get tense when I have to change between vertical and horizontal orientation when using Hasselblad 503cw/555ELD or view camera sliding adapter for fear of exposing the sensor to dust, or dropping the digital back.  Of course, this issue evaporates once you offer a square sensored back .
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Thierry Hagenauer
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