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Author Topic: New H3D full frame!!!  (Read 121514 times)

BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #120 on: October 04, 2006, 06:45:06 am »

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Unless they use an older version of the chip, which I doubt, I think he means the implementation of the Kodak chip in Phase produces a better image/workflow than the Imacaon/blad, the Leaf/Dalsa, arguably, better still.
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Thank you Paul, that is indeed what I meant.

Cheers,
Bernard

BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #121 on: October 04, 2006, 06:51:36 am »

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Bernard - the only person you have to convince is yourself.  So why not take a look at it and see if you like it or not.
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Well, I think that I have managed to convince myself alright indeed, my H1 will be sold by the end of the month if nothing change on Hassy's part.

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We can all rant and rave about what is the 'best' system.  At the end of the day there are no wrong choices.  Its not like Leaf, Phase, blah blah make bad products is it?
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Well, I'd rather rave when 30.000 US$ is at stake. The wrong choises are all those that are not the best, and I am with you in thinking that Leaf and Phase probably do not belong to the "wrong" catgory. Who does it leave us with?

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So, spare a few blood vessles everyone and go and take some photos.   
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I am with you Jo, it is indeed not worth it.

Cheers,
Bernard

liana1

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« Reply #122 on: October 04, 2006, 08:28:51 am »

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Well, I think that I have managed to convince myself alright indeed, my H1 will be sold by the end of the month if nothing change on Hassy's part.[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79045\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]



Hi Bernard,

I dont think you would look good without a nose  

why sell it now if it still works for you?

I was pointed to this thread by a friend (also a long time imacon user) and I figured after wading through the posts,  that some of us satisfied imacon/hasselblad users should try to balance the thread.

My imacon 384 (multishot) has given 4 years of faultless service, from tests, none of the other single shot backs could ever get close to the 4 shot captures never mind the 16 shot captures.
The imacon also has live video which phase one dealers tell me they never saw the need for???

I have been looking to add to my H1 and 384 and figured it best to wait until after photokina, and am I glad I did!

I have tried phase and leaf finding both to have overly complicated software and had also been waiting for an all in one solution, the H2D was tempting,)wasnt this an integrated camera) but the money wasnt available, I have recently tried a leaf aptus 22 (didnt like the software) and the various phase backs (didnt like the firewire cable in my chin and it is only firewire 400) and I am sorry but size for size I cant see a noticable difference in the images of the single shot backs. And sinar?  well after sales support is lacking I am told.

After you have multi shot in the studio  you never want to go back to  single shot.

Live video is a big selling point for me  too.

If I want to shoot fast then I use my canon mk2( and ACR)

Talk of investment confuses me too, is it just you boys and your toys? for me a camera is a tool of my trade (not an expensive toy for my hobby) which will wear out and be superceeded by a better tool. My car depreciates at about $1000 per month and do I complain if I cant put the engine out of the latest model in it?

My TV isnt HD ready but I still see pictures on it

If I cant make enough money to keep up with the latest release then I have to wait, my 384 is more than up to the job.

I like to be able to clean the chip on the imacon which is more than can be said of the canon.

Hasselblad could have gone the way of contax, rollei etc and then what would you boys have done with your "investments"? Instead they have chosen to develop "their" range of products whilst still supporting the H2, which as we have heard is in great demand around the world.

Hasselblad dont charge for their software updates and am I to be upset that C1 doesnt support my 3f files.

Sorry I cant pee any higher that this, take care boys

Liana
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BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #123 on: October 04, 2006, 09:53:24 am »

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why sell it now if it still works for you?
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Liana,

I doesn't. It has been sitting in a Lowe Pro back for a year without me using it a single time. With a film back on, the H1 has zero value compared to a high end DSLR like the D2x that I have been using for 1.5 years. Similar image quality, but you pay the film, carry more weight, have less range, less flexibility,...

The H1 has been solely waiting for a MFDB that it will most probably never get...

Cheers,
Bernard

mkravit

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« Reply #124 on: October 05, 2006, 10:12:29 pm »

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Sorry I cant pee any higher that this, take care boys

Liana
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I can't believe I actually read through this entire thread! Torture I tell you.

So here is a prediction.  

Hasselblad's decision is brilliant!

Their marketing strategy is outstanding. They will grow to be the number one selling "integrated" medium format system (I guess due to lack of any other integrated product thay already are). They will out sell the Hy6, Leaf Afi and any other medium format system on the market unless Canon makes a bigger chip and produces wide lenses that are semi decent.

BTW, from what I am told it is Jenoptic developing the Hy6/AFi not Rollei and we all know who Jenoptic is.
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Steve Kerman

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« Reply #125 on: October 05, 2006, 11:04:49 pm »

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BTW, from what I am told it is Jenoptic developing the Hy6/AFi not Rollei and we all know who Jenoptic is.
I guess I'm not part of "we all."  Could you please explain who Jenoptic is?  (I understand they used to own 51% of Sinar, that they sold to Leica.)

Could you provide a link to somewhere that explains that Jenoptic and not Rollei is developing the Hy6?

Thanks!
« Last Edit: October 05, 2006, 11:05:22 pm by Steve Kerman »
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David WM

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« Reply #126 on: October 06, 2006, 12:37:23 am »

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Hasselblad's decision is brilliant!
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It seems to me that Hasselblad have made a decision about their future direction that may upset existing users (like me) which is similar to what Canon did in the '80s when they introduced the EOS. They then began their domination of the Pro 35mm market. Nikon were not prepared to risk upsetting their existing users and stayed with their same mount. How did that turn out for each company?  Maybe one was looking forwards and the other backwards?
If the other DB manufacturers don't get exclusive deals with other camera manufacturers and need a good body to hang their back on, I imagine Hasselblad will sell them cameras if they can make profit out of the deal... unless they actually think they can wipe them all out, which doesn't sound very realistic, but maybe it is their intention if they believe the future global demand for DB's isn't going to be very big and they will need all of that market to get economies of scale.
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eronald

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« Reply #127 on: October 06, 2006, 04:38:53 am »

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It seems to me that Hasselblad have made a decision about their future direction that may upset existing users (like me) which is similar to what Canon did in the '80s when they introduced the EOS. They then began their domination of the Pro 35mm market. Nikon were not prepared to risk upsetting their existing users and stayed with their same mount. How did that turn out for each company?  Maybe one was looking forwards and the other backwards?
If the other DB manufacturers don't get exclusive deals with other camera manufacturers and need a good body to hang their back on, I imagine Hasselblad will sell them cameras if they can make profit out of the deal... unless they actually think they can wipe them all out, which doesn't sound very realistic, but maybe it is their intention if they believe the future global demand for DB's isn't going to be very big and they will need all of that market to get economies of scale.
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When they have a big enough user base, a competitive upgrade could do wonders for them, indeed. At the moment it sounds like they have upset their existing users pointlessly.

Edmund
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Carl Glover

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« Reply #128 on: October 06, 2006, 05:27:11 am »

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BTW, from what I am told it is Jenoptic developing the Hy6/AFi not Rollei and we all know who Jenoptic is.
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Strange? It takes Rollei lenses and has all the usual Rollei functions. Jenoptik might be bankrolling it  but it looks very much like a Rollei, epecially with all the handgrip area controls.

I'm going to buy a HY6 because it gives me more choices, the lenses are better and the front elements don't drop off the zooms.

The Sinar backs work well on my 6008, I'm looking forward to the back going onto a camera that will take up less space when being carried onto an aircraft as hand luggage.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2006, 05:35:43 am by Carl Glover »
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yaya

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« Reply #129 on: October 06, 2006, 06:06:56 am »

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I guess I'm not part of "we all."  Could you please explain who Jenoptic is?  (I understand they used to own 51% of Sinar, that they sold to Leica.)

Could you provide a link to somewhere that explains that Jenoptic and not Rollei is developing the Hy6?

Thanks!
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Steve here are a few links for further reading:

[a href=\"http://www.jenoptik.com/cps/rde/xchg/SID-26EE34DB-2DE8C916/jenoptik/hs.xsl/276.htm]http://www.jenoptik.com/cps/rde/xchg/SID-2.../hs.xsl/276.htm[/url]

http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=347844

http://www.photonewstoday.com/?p=105

http://www.franke-heidecke.net/

http://www.leaf-photography.com/files/Pres...tiks_Camera.pdf

http://www.leaf-photography.com/files/Pres...Cooperation.pdf
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mkravit

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« Reply #130 on: October 06, 2006, 10:53:36 am »

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I guess I'm not part of "we all."  Could you please explain who Jenoptic is?  (I understand they used to own 51% of Sinar, that they sold to Leica.)

Could you provide a link to somewhere that explains that Jenoptic and not Rollei is developing the Hy6?

Thanks!
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79263\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


The group was founded in 1991 as a successor to JENOPTIK Carl Zeiss Jena GmbH. Since June 1998 JENOPTIK AG has been listed on the Frankfurt Stock Exchange and is included in the TecDax.
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James Russell

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« Reply #131 on: October 06, 2006, 11:00:03 am »

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I guess I'm not part of "we all."  Could you please explain who Jenoptic is?  (I understand they used to own 51% of Sinar, that they sold to Leica.)

Could you provide a link to somewhere that explains that Jenoptic and not Rollei is developing the Hy6?

Thanks!
[{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]


If I've learned anything about digital capture in the last few years is the bottom line is don't get caught up in the bleeding edge of it all.

It's just too difficult running a business, moving your art and constantly buying, upgrading, learning just to start the whole process over again.

I could write a book on my chronicles from digital capture starting with the Kodak 760 to the Leaf Aptus, and each camera, each new upgrade took hundreds of hours to learn and digest.

Today, after Photokina you would think the world has ended, now that Hasselblad has decided to go their own propreitary way.

Personally I think thier decision is good for our industry because it forces positive change.  Many people will explore past systems and as we see Leaf and Sinar will develope new ones.

But for anyone to say they have to wait and see what shakes out before making a decision to me makes no sense.

Leaf, Phase, Sinar and Imablad all make backs that will go on at least 7 medium format cameras that offer huge lens selections at bargain basement prices.  

Some like the Contax are easier because they have a digital interface, others like the RZ are more difficult because they require adpater plates, but all of them work and continue to work as easily as they did with film.

It's funny that eveyrone bitches about the cost of medium format digital, but on the other hand feels lost unless there is a brand new camera platform available.  Problem is the last brand new camera platform costs as much as a good digital back, by the time a few lenses were added.

I have a Contax with 9 lenses, two bodies, for around the same cost as a 1ds2 and one good lens.

I still use the Aptus 22 and can promise you it has all the resolution (and more) than any client has asked for and  I will be using it for another 2 to 3 years, maybe more.  I recently bought an A-65 just for a little higher iso and as a backup and for a long time I should be set.

I guess we can all get caught up in this, but as of today I think we have more options than ever before and if you pick the right system and you can get more than great value from it, you can get where you were in the film days where you had one system that lasted a large part of your career.

Just because Hasselblad or Leaf or Phase writes a new PDF doesn't mean that what your using today magically quit working.

I constantly read that C-1 is the only useable software, the Leaf file is more film like, or the Hasselblad is more integrated.  Truth be told, most of these systems are very good, some In my opinion better, but all very good.  

The trick is finding what works for you, developing a fast workflow and getting back to what your true love is, which is making photographs.

I have a simple workflow useing Leaf V-8 for tethering, which btw is very fast and rock stable, I-view for editing and sorting and pscs1 for batching.

In the world of digital this may seem like a step backward but unless you've learned and tried V-8 you don't really know how fast and stable tethering can be.   The upside of the small embedded tiffs in the Leaf file is they sort very fast in I-view and though Adobe would love to see us all move to the next CS2,3,4,5,6,, CS1 processes my files film like and even on an old G4 powerbook will batch process a file in 17 seconds.

I hope the new Leaf/Sinar  HY6 is a success, I hope hasselblad improves their backs and would love nothing more than to see Phase assist Mamiya into making a world class product.  That is good for all of us, but keep in mind that if technology absolutely stopped today, there would still be beautiful photographs produced with what is available.

In the last few weeks nothing changed for the worst.  It probably got better.

IMO

JR
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JBM

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« Reply #132 on: October 06, 2006, 11:28:52 am »

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The trick is finding what works for you, developing a fast workflow and getting back to what your true love is, which is making photographs.

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Personally I think thier decision is good for our industry because it forces positive change. Many people will explore past systems and as we see Leaf and Sinar will develope new ones.

Here, here. Pleasure to read you James. Although I'm loathe to forget Hasselblad's dubious decision and adopt their platform I'm more than glad to see, and hopefully buy, the innovation that results from the competition's response.

I've received three mailings from Hasselblad since Photokina, each one as slick and oblivious as the last. It just floors me why the other brands aren't fine tuning their marketing plans. Then again, their chances just got a whole lot more interesting.

I'm a month away from spending a considerable sum on MF and the options are nothing if not exciting. I'm more confident now about my choices than I was in July, thanks in no small part to hungry dealer networks, innovative product development and sage advice from other grounded pros with more MF experience than my own...

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and workflow James.
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Steve Kerman

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« Reply #133 on: October 06, 2006, 01:09:16 pm »

Yaya, thank you ever so much for all the links--I'm sure it took a fair while to find all of those.  I've read them through, and learned quite a bit that I didn't already know.

James Russell, your very thoughtful essay followed a quote from me; I think, though, that what you said was more directed at everyone here rather than me.  I thank you for your wise counsel; indeed, we do now have many very fine ways to do photography!
« Last Edit: October 06, 2006, 01:11:38 pm by Steve Kerman »
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KenRexach

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« Reply #134 on: October 07, 2006, 10:52:55 am »

The Hasselblad Integrated approach is a good idea IF that translates into significantly more agressive pricing of their system. I mean being a DSLR it should be priced more closely to say the Canon 1Ds mk2. The upcoming 20-22mp 1Ds "mk3" is already ready so when Canon finally decides to release it it will bridge the gap with MFDBs even more.

I mean if Hasselblad prices their H3D at around $12,000 or so it will just raise the value bar so high in MFDB world that it will be hard for MFDB mfgs to compete.

Canon kinda did that with the DSLR I mean they offered the original 1Ds with about twice the resolution of Nikons D1x for only $2000 more only a year later than the D1x was introduced.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2006, 10:53:28 am by KenRexach »
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MarkKay

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« Reply #135 on: October 07, 2006, 11:09:32 am »

Ken you are dreaming.  THe prices have been released and  are 27K and 32k depending on if you go with the 22 or 39 back.

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The Hasselblad Integrated approach is a good idea IF that translates into significantly more agressive pricing of their system. I mean being a DSLR it should be priced more closely to say the Canon 1Ds mk2. The upcoming 20-22mp 1Ds "mk3" is already ready so when Canon finally decides to release it it will bridge the gap with MFDBs even more.

I mean if Hasselblad prices their H3D at around $12,000 or so it will just raise the value bar so high in MFDB world that it will be hard for MFDB mfgs to compete.

Canon kinda did that with the DSLR I mean they offered the original 1Ds with about twice the resolution of Nikons D1x for only $2000 more only a year later than the D1x was introduced.
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damien

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« Reply #136 on: October 07, 2006, 06:42:23 pm »

Gosh we are back on topic and at last, some common scense real world views from a master, thanks James. I'm not sure what all the fuss is about either. I feel neutral about Hasselblad and with such testosterone about on this thread that is probably a good thing. I know that using my 2 year old H1 with it's P25 is great fun and inspiring. When It eventually gets replaced in another 2 or 3 years time I'm sure Hasselblad will still be there making some kind of MF camera system for me. I'm glad about that, and hopefully the competition will have got it's act together too.

Damien.

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« Reply #137 on: October 10, 2006, 09:17:05 pm »

I'm probably missing something fundamental, but whats to stop Phase reverse engineering one of their backs for an H3D?

They can make it fit, and work with the camera's electronics, provide power supply, etc. yes, it wont have the optical correction necessary to work that ultra wide, but that can be done in DXO pro or somesuch, and for the other lenses it should work as well as an H2D, so what am I missing?

I do understand hassleblads need to grab a big slice of the MF Digiback $ to survive, and totally would try the same if it were my company, but wouldnt it be better to do that by designing a better product than engineering a lockout?
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yaya

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« Reply #138 on: October 11, 2006, 03:07:05 am »

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I'm probably missing something fundamental, but whats to stop Phase reverse engineering one of their backs for an H3D?

They can make it fit, and work with the camera's electronics, provide power supply, etc. yes, it wont have the optical correction necessary to work that ultra wide, but that can be done in DXO pro or somesuch, and for the other lenses it should work as well as an H2D, so what am I missing?

I do understand hassleblads need to grab a big slice of the MF Digiback $ to survive, and totally would try the same if it were my company, but wouldnt it be better to do that by designing a better product than engineering a lockout?
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You're missing the money bit...licencing fee that is...

Also if the firmware in the body is diffenrent and locks it, then there's not much you can do about it...
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johndk

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« Reply #139 on: October 15, 2006, 10:56:11 am »

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what i don't understand is why would anyone want to buy the H3D?
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Hello. I haven´t posted ever before. But I am currently buying an H3D. And it´s easy to explain why. I think most of those that complain about H3D being a closed system probably use a mac for retouching etc. Thats a closed system too. It works tremendously well, because it´s a closed system. Sure you can buy aftermarket monitors etc, which would be like buying filters for the H3D, but that Mac sitting on your desk is the same as an H3D.

Here´s why I´m buying the H3D:
First quality of the images. I went to Photokina 2006. I brought with me several CF cards. I shot handheld and tripod with both a P45+ and a H3D, at the respective booth of each company. I know it´s not a perfect test, but it´s a test. I took it images back to my hotel room, and loaded them up.  I haven´t shot with any 39Megapixel cameras ever. I shoot sinar 4x5 and Canon Mark II. So I haven´t any preconcieved notions.  When I talk about quality of the files I mean image detail. The H3D resolves much more detail than the P45+. However the P45+ has slightly less noise. This was the main difference. It´s a small difference, but noticeable. I returned the next day to ask in the Hasselblad booth about the difference in noise. They told me that Phase One does handle noise a little bit better, which seemed well refreshing that they would say that to me. On the other hand, when I returned to the Phase One booth to ask them about the lack of detail in their digital files, they got defensive, and when I asked if they would try to reprocess them they flatly said no and tried to sell me on the  live preview feature instead. (which they were demoing at the hasselblad booth too).

I used the latest Capture One 3.7.5 and Flexcolor. I admit that Flexcolor is not in the same league as Capture One, I use Capture one for my Canon RAW files, but the Barrel Distorsion Correction and Digital Apo are what really makes me choose the H3D.  

Beyond these aspects, the lenses are fantastic, the new waist level is essential, and it´s NOT a closed system like the H2D-39. You can use a film back on the H3D, another essential.  There is an adapter to put the Digital Back onto my sinar too, perfect.

One question that still remains in my head, is that if the H3D will accept Film Backs, how could they prevent it from accepting other Digital Backs. I believe this is pure assumption and I doubt that anyone has really tried it.

If you´re interested in recieving any of the files from the H3d let me know.

Regards. John DK
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