New H3D full frame!!!

[BJL]

"48mm full frame" - The Kodak sensor, being 49mm, is now capturing more than what the new (masked) focusing screen is showing, so where are the extra pixels going?
...
The HVD90X prism is essentially the same as the HV90X with the meter tuned to ignore the Black masking on the focusing screen.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78946\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I suspect that Hasleblad is just using "36x48mm" as nice round numbers (nicer than "36.7x49mm")and is not saying that this is exactly the FOV covered by the VF. Similarly, "645" is not 6x4.5cm, but only 56x42.5mm. And 6x7 is not even 6:7 shaped; it is 4:5 shaped.

The HVD90X is not just a masked version of the 645 format HV90X; the "D" version has higher magnification, so that it gives the same sized image of the slightly smaller frame.

But you have a good point that by ignoring light from outside the "48mm format" frame the "D" VF should give better metering accuracy than earlier 645 format bodies used with sub-645 format sensors.

[josayeruk]

The software lens correstion is a "fudge" which insults all our intelligence.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78953\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Why do you say that Ed?  It was working really nicely on the H3D at Photokina.  Have you seen it working?

Instantly corrected the distortion on the 28 and 35.  Plus I saw the effect of having the Chromatic Abberation turned on compared to disabled.

Jo.

[Graham Mitchell]

This is not the case.  CEO Poulsen say it will stay for as long as there is demand.

He actually contradicted that himself, so it will be interesting to see what they decide to do.

[josayeruk]

My H2D gets an automatic free upgrade to an H3D, so how is that for service?

is this for real?
I want my upgrade now!
Who told you?

marc
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78888\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Marc,

I think so!  It might depend on how old your H2D is, but considering the H3D is €1000 more (I think?) then it could be a charge like this.

Go ask your dealer I guess.    

Jo.

[Graham Mitchell]

You misunderstand - the Digital unit on the H3D can be removed and put on a view camera.  I was not referring to the lens.

Ah, ok. That sounds perfectly plausible.

[josayeruk]

Jo,

As a regular Hassy customer without agenda, I can tell you that I am really unhappy about their move.

- Why would I welcome the news that future Hassy lenses will not be usable on my 3 years old 6000 US$ body?
- Why would I welcome the news that my H1 has no future as a platform for digital backs?

With all due respect, I have a really hard time understanding your positions.

Cheers,
Bernard
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78884\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Hi Bernard,

I had an old H1 body which I didn't need when I got the H2D.  I got it upgraded to an H2 for less than €400.. or something like that... and keep it for backup with film.

I don't think you need to think of your H1 as having no future as my dealer gave me a whole load of upgrade options before I went for the H2D.  Maybe go and have a chat with them to settle your mind?

Jo.

[Graham Mitchell]

If they have spent a bunch of R&D money mapping lenses and figuring out how to correct for distortion and CA - why oh why would you hand that on a plate to Phase One and leaf?

To help them sell their lenses. This info could only be of possible value to owners of the Hasselblad lens. Making the correction data openly available would only make the lens more attractive to users of H1/2 with non-Hass backs.

Maybe Hass could sell the correction module as a plug-in. In fact this would be a great way for all companies to go.

[Graham Mitchell]

Or the promised mixed identity Sinar/Leaf/Rollei, which as Izaack points out is untested, untested.......

Why are the Hasselblad proponents calling the Hy6 untested but arguing in favour of the H3D? I assume you mean tested by the buying public? The Hy6 is an evolution of the 6008 which has been around a lot longer than the Hasselblad H system. Furthermore the H3D is also not 'tested' by the public either. The H1/2 cameras seem to have more than their fair share of glitches.

[Graham Mitchell]

Denis M has pointed out that the H3D has a slow capture rate of 35 pictures per minute- but isn't it actually doing something for you for you in that time, something that you will not have to do later yourself- the lens correction processing?

I believe that is how slow they were BEFORE lens correction.

[Gary Ferguson]

It was working really nicely on the H3D at Photokina. Have you seen it working?

Instantly corrected the distortion on the 28 and 35. Plus I saw the effect of having the Chromatic Abberation turned on compared to disabled

Jo, are you saying that you can switch DAC on or off at the camera/RAW processor stage? Or was this a specially set up demo and not something a photographer could do in real life?

[hubell]

what i don't understand is why would anyone want to buy the H3D? the only reason would be to have a one in all solution that provides fast shooting, and the best quality...now that wold be a reason...but we know that it simply does not...it is actually the slowest shooting MF digital  and the color problem, if taken care of still puts in at least as good as the others, but not better...i have never heard anyone argue that the hasselblad backs are better then all the others...people say: they are as good now,..they worked the problems out now...but never, yes they are better....
i tested the H2D because i liked the all in one concept and i could have gotten a great price on it...the files simply were not as good as either leaf, phase or sinar! this might be my personal opinion, but many share this opinon and nobody says that they are better....so where is the advantage?
the H3D comes in 2 flavors, both with stats competing with last years leaf and phase models! sinar already had the faster shooting, built in buffer and great disply....the digital part of the H3D has no improvement at all! phase got a better display, faster shooting and higher asa, leaf got even faster shooting and higher asa, both got live preview...both also have a much wider product line to choose from...and both are (arguably) as good if not better then the H3D...so what is the argument to go with the H3D?
btw: mamiya now has a 28mm as well...no software necessary....
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78943\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Here a few reasons. One, Hasselblad will apparently come out with a T/S lens that will only work with the H3D, and presumably provide for in-camera software to optimize the optical performance of the lens. This is a "killer app", in software industry speak, and I understand the frustration and anger  of those like Michael that bought into the H system thinking that they would get access to such a lens even if they used a Phase or Leaf back on their H1 or H2. Where else am I going to go for it?
Two, I want a camera/digital back that "talk" to each other and make the workflow as easy as possible to get a processed image that is at least the equal of a sheet of say Astia that I get back from E-6 lab(i.e., it looks really good without the need to spend X minutes on each image in post-processing).
Third, I want to know that my camera system has a solvent company behind it that is committed to updating and expanding the system that provides a long-term "Home" for my digital back. Again, Michael thought he was getting this as well by switching out of his Contax system to H system bodies and lenses quite recently.
Mamiya does not do it for me. Their misstarts on the digital front indicate to me that they are clueless. They MAY merge with Phase, but who knows. As for Rollei, Sinar and Leaf for a camera system, no thanks. I am not gambling a $50 k investment on any of them. If you are in say Zion National Park taking photographs and your camera/back fails, who would you want to call for a quick replacement, Rollei or Hasselblad?
Of course, if the files and workflow with the H3D were not "as good" as Phase and Leaf, then the decision becomes VERY cloudy, and perhaps that is  the case. I don't have the answers yet.

[josayeruk]

Jo, are you saying that you can switch DAC on or off at the camera/RAW processor stage? Or was this a specially set up demo and not something a photographer could do in real life?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78974\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

What I saw in the Hasselblad software is that you could choose to apply / unapply the corrections in the same box as where the USM settings are.  So yes, at the processing stage.

So, if you click the Box for Distortion, then you see the image 'pop' on screen as the corrections are appllied... If that makes sense!

Jo.

[josayeruk]

I believe that is how slow they were BEFORE lens correction.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78971\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

On the stage in the Hasselblad stand I watched a fashion demonstration.  The photographer seemed to be shooting at lot faster than I could manage on my H2D.  I asked him at the end how he was doing it and it seems they where using a yet to be released software which had improved the FireWire 800 connection and made some other changes... he didn't know what exactly except to say that it was much faster.

He gave me the camera and I shot continuously at I guess around 1.5 frames a second connected to a computer for at least a minute.

Jo.

[pprdigital]

I don't have the answers yet.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78976\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

I think that's the best single line from a post yet on this thread. Much of what we're debating is based to a degree on conjecture, and Hasselblad has to take some blame on that for not being clear regarding certain issues - like H2 production, full-frame, etc.

I believe one thing is clear. No camera company can survive by making film bodies for digital backs to go on. That has been proven. Fuji, Bronica, Contax, M...a...m...i...y...a, R...o...l...l...e...i... - all gone or heading that way.

So while Hasselblad might have made the effort to enhance the quality of capture for a Leaf or Phase One user, that strategy would serve no purpose other than to contribute to it's ultimate demise.

Lens sales will not keep Hasselblad in business. The most profitable component of their solution is the digital component. They do not benefit by enhancing the image quality of their competitors and gaining lens sales.

The H1/H2 user is potentially at a system dead-end. And that's a huge bummer if it turns out ot be the case. But that is the state of medium format today. It's a tough business in a small and very competitive market. More will drop out - that's for sure.

The key to Hasselblad's future is integrated digital cameras, and the successful implementation of those solutions. If they really work, and really make a difference, Hasselblad has a chance.

The key to the future of  Leaf and Phase One and Sinar is also integrated digital cameras. They're heading that way now, and it will be challenge.

Steve Hendrix
PPR Digital

[jpop]

Well you could aruge that Hasselblad is very scarred by Leaf/Phase and Jenoptic(Sinar). Why, as their backs all have one up on the Hasselblad backs. [a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78915\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Ed, I can't disagree with much of anything you stated and certainly the back manufacturers look for places where their competitors aren't to gain a marketing advantage.  It's clear there is some fear running through the market and consolidation is certainly around the corner when the players make potentially volatile moves, deals or alliances.  The market simply isn't large enough to support all the bright minds engineering the plethora of products available, the talented sales and marketing people who put them on the street and all the other work that goes on behind the scenes.

If Hasselblad is running scared, perhaps they are the smart ones.  I don't see anyone with a decided market advantage that allows them to sit on their hands nor do I see a feature set that makes a single manufacturer a runaway success.  I don't see a market big enough to allow 4 players to truly be successful nor a player powerful enough to strike a knockout blow.  In the end the fight for survival will leave us with better products and I honestly shrug my shoulders at the perceived skullduggery.  It's just business as usual in a competitive market and if you didn't see this coming you weren't paying attention.

[BernardLanguillier]

Hi Bernard,

I had an old H1 body which I didn't need when I got the H2D.  I got it upgraded to an H2 for less than €400.. or something like that... and keep it for backup with film.

I don't think you need to think of your H1 as having no future as my dealer gave me a whole load of upgrade options before I went for the H2D.  Maybe go and have a chat with them to settle your mind?
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=78966\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Jo,

It won't cut it. Even if I upgrade to a H2, I would probably not upgrade to a H2D since most reports seem to indicate that the Imacon sensor is behind its Leaf and Phase competitors.

I would therefore not be able to use future Hassy lenses...

If the current directions is confirmed, I'll be selling all my Hassy gear soon, and will not come back. The Mamiya platform, including their new 28 mm, is probably where I am going to put my money for now. Hassy H lenses have been way overpriced anyway. It is tempting to invest in an expensive "perfect" system, but H has become a lot less perfect as a system since the recent announcements...

Cheers,
Bernard

[RicAgu]

Well that was a bit of a rant by a Hassy guy.  I don't think Michael would sit there with his pants down showing the world his willy if he didn't have some proof to back it up.  The only error was calling it the pro.

I loved Hasselblad and my three different Imacons were amazinng!  I still have a PIII that ROCKS!  My Fuji GA 645's and GX617's were stunning.  Made me a lot of money and some spectacular images.  So when these three companies merged or started working together, I was not disappointed.  I was thrown off the RG because I jokingly said that if a JAP, a Sweed and Dane got together it cannot be all bad.  They left out the German.  Well some of the most amazing images of our time were made with Japanese glass. NIKON, Canon, Mamiya and yes FUJI!.  It is about the photographer and how we interact with the subject matter.  Gimme a Holga and I'll make some cool shit!  Not what a Hassy 120 macro with tri-x will do.  But yet still cool.  You approach your subject matter with the tool you have.

I'll be the first to say that my H1, H2, four film backs, Polaroid Back (yeah, i know), and five lenses that I use with my P25 and A75 will be gone the minute a properly working Rollei Hy6 will be available.  

My first square was a Rollei 6008 and then I went to the Hassy 553ELX and then the RZ.  The best film and colours I ever achieved were from my Schneider PQS lenses.  the 180mm 2.8 is breathtaking!  The 55mm/2.8 was superb! and the 55 Shift was insane.  But the DAMN battery SUCKED!

I will most likely only ever use Phase One and Leaf for my digital backs.  They are simply the best at what they do from software on up.

After I have close to $25K on Hassy hardware and they leave me holding little Ricky with no upward lens strategy!  I am pissed!  I sold my Contax to get into H1.  I had every lens Contax made form 35 to 210, the Pentax adapter and the Hassy V adapter.  With a range of lenses that was insane!  Not cool at all!  Rollei has some of the most superb lenses out there, the shutter speeds that we all want should we need them and let's see what they come out with on the autofocus side.  Plus!, being able to use the focusing hood with a vertical or horizontal chip!  The H1 will only let me use it as a Horizontal.  20% of my work.  I could have taped a pentax 67 magnifyng hood to my H1 with some Liquid nails and duct tape and probably gotten the same thing!  I though they would make some rotating thing like the Rollei prism finders!

Nothing against Hassy!  Love my PIII scanner although I am stuck using a software from three years ago because they don;t support SCSI anymore. Love my GA 645's and GX 617.  They should have figured out a way to make the backs work with V bodies and no cables.  That would have been cool!  Although I just saw the 555ELD is gone and I hated the grip on the 503CW.  Anything shorter than a 100 and your fingers got jammed in the trigger pusher.

Upward and Onward!!

I am off to shoot and not worrying about this crap anymore.  Looks like the ROLLEI is the place to be.  I hope it works!

[wilburdl]

Has anybody mentioned developing a seperate "integrated" body a la ZD and keeping the H as-is. That would please those who want a MFDSLR and a modular unit.

[josayeruk]

Jo,

It won't cut it. Even if I upgrade to a H2, I would probably not upgrade to a H2D since most reports seem to indicate that the Imacon sensor is behind its Leaf and Phase competitors.

[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=79012\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Bernard - the only person you have to convince is yourself.  So why not take a look at it and see if you like it or not.

I am not sure what you mean by 'Imacon' sensor as the sensor in Phase and Hassy is the same.  Leaf uses Dalsa.

We can all rant and rave about what is the 'best' system.  At the end of the day there are no wrong choices.  Its not like Leaf, Phase, blah blah make bad products is it?

So, spare a few blood vessles everyone and go and take some photos.    

Jo.

[Paul Barker]

I am not sure what you mean by 'Imacon' sensor as the sensor in Phase and Hassy is the same.  Leaf uses Dalsa.

Unless they use an older version of the chip, which I doubt, I think he means the implementation of the Kodak chip in Phase produces a better image/workflow than the Imacaon/blad, the Leaf/Dalsa, arguably, better still.

The Leaf V10 software may not be up to C1 in function, but it's getting better. The great strength of C1 is being able to process files (very well) from Canon, Nikon, Leica, keeping the same workflow. C1 makes the images from the Kodak chip sing, Flex doesn't.  Apart from that, it looks like a relic of some scanning software from OS9 days (which it is). Even if the camera was the best thing since sliced bread, the thought of being locked into that is a major turn off.

Quite interesting how the views are polarised into love and hate for what Hasselblad are doing. For those snappers who support it, quite vehemently (are you being paid by them?), I wish you all the best with your chosen platform. I'll carry on with my 500 series which will no doubt work as well has it has for the last 7 years I've been back with them. The only thing which does excite me is the Hy6, I can wait. Hasselblad H is definitely off the menu.