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Author Topic: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?  (Read 210517 times)

synn

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Re: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?
« Reply #560 on: June 25, 2016, 02:49:59 am »

As I have little experience with MF, I hope you won't mind my saying that of all the cameras I have used, the one I enjoyed using most was my 500C or whatever the "cheap on sale" model with 80mm was called. I carted the thing around in my backpack around the world, and hugely enjoyed taking it out from time to time for ... one shot on Fujichrome 1600, metering with the cheapest incident light Sekonic meter. I had an ancient Rollei 6x6 slide projector. Before the Hassy I had a russian Kiev - with I think a 30mm? fisheye in addition to a couple of other lenses.

My experience with digital MF was bad, I never merged with the Phamiya and eventuallly sold it. For some reason no art I ever did with the Phase ever sold. All my "pro" images that were published, all the catalog work, and all the art prints I sold I did with Canon, although I used the Phamiya as a travel camera. As we all know, these days  the only reason I pull out a camera is when I want to take an atmospheric image of my kid, and my new "pro" imaging activity is video, although I'm now directing rather than lensing.

I just wish that Hassy had found a way to sell digital versions of the V series rather than starting from scratch. The lenses I was lucky enough to handle were wonderful, and at least for amateur use, the shooting experience delightful.

Edmund

So basically, next to nothing that is relevant to pontificating on this forum like an expert in medium format digital.
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Rob C

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Re: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?
« Reply #561 on: June 25, 2016, 04:01:17 am »

So basically, next to nothing that is relevant to pontificating on this forum like an expert in medium format digital.

Come on Synn, you can do better than that.

If you want a totally closed gassing shop, then you'd better look elsewhere. As with photography itself, if it, LuLa, were to depend on its elite performers and its pros, it would close shop today, not tomorrow.

For the record, the man's right: he knows what worked for him and what did not; that's all he's putting down. From my own  experience, my two 500 Series cameras were fantastic for the jobs for which they were suitable. Yet, overall, I owe most to Nikon and Kodachrome which brought me in the bulk of my earnings.

Yes, photography was the only arrow in my quiver.

Rob

synn

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Re: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?
« Reply #562 on: June 25, 2016, 04:14:33 am »

Come on Synn, you can do better than that.

If you want a totally closed gassing shop, then you'd better look elsewhere. As with photography itself, if it, LuLa, were to depend on its elite performers and its pros, it would close shop today, not tomorrow.

For the record, the man's right: he knows what worked for him and what did not; that's all he's putting down. From my own  experience, my two 500 Series cameras were fantastic for the jobs for which they were suitable. Yet, overall, I owe most to Nikon and Kodachrome which brought me in the bulk of my earnings.

Yes, photography was the only arrow in my quiver.

Rob

Saying what worked for him and didn't is well and good, but the said gentleman is in every thread, giving expert commentary on how this AF system performs better than that one, how this body locks up and the other doesn't, how this company should be pricing their products and so on, without having even smelled the products in question.

Now I am gonna take a cue from Keith and sign up for an online course to learn swimming.
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Hulyss

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Re: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?
« Reply #563 on: June 25, 2016, 06:05:18 am »

Saying what worked for him and didn't is well and good, but the said gentleman is in every thread, giving expert commentary on how this AF system performs better than that one, how this body locks up and the other doesn't, how this company should be pricing their products and so on, without having even smelled the products in question.

Now I am gonna take a cue from Keith and sign up for an online course to learn swimming.

So true ... book one training course for me too I'll pay you later.
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eronald

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Re: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?
« Reply #564 on: June 25, 2016, 08:46:44 am »

Rob,

But what a travel camera! Roughly the same size as my Leicas and smaller a lighter than your Nikons. What's not to like?

Yes!

Lots of detail, huge DR, needs to be shot at high shutter speed or on tripod (lack of stabiliser), accurate but slow focus.
Smaller than Nikon or Canon SLRS. Wide and normal lenses.
Exactly what one needs for a travel camera.
Edmund
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JV

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Re: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?
« Reply #565 on: June 25, 2016, 08:49:16 am »

This camera is definitely growing on me...

But I will patiently wait till more reviews become available and by that time it will be Photokina and we will hopefully also know more about what the competition has lined up.

As a S2-owner it will also be interesting to see what Leica has in mind.

Now that both Pentax and Hasselblad are below the $10K price point selling a 37MP camera at $16K is no longer commercially viable IMHO.
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Ken R

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Re: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?
« Reply #566 on: June 25, 2016, 03:56:47 pm »

This camera is definitely growing on me...

But I will patiently wait till more reviews become available and by that time it will be Photokina and we will hopefully also know more about what the competition has lined up.

As a S2-owner it will also be interesting to see what Leica has in mind.

Now that both Pentax and Hasselblad are below the $10K price point selling a 37MP camera at $16K is no longer commercially viable IMHO.

The Leica S/S2 is a great platform. The body (amazing viewfinder) and lenses are awesome. The sensor might be its weak point but it is not that far off the Sony 50mm which I think fits into the body no problem and the lenses have enough coverage. So it is still a future possibility for Leica. The short flange focal length is also a plus for adapting many lenses.

The X1D looks like a superb platform as well but the EVF is it's weak point. Hasselblad can easily fix that in future models (along with better AF and adding other features). The X1D changes the game no question but it would have made a HUGE impact had it incorporated a mechanical shutter.
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markymarkrb

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Re: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?
« Reply #567 on: June 25, 2016, 06:38:55 pm »

As much as the camera is growing on me, I can't help but think that the door is still wide open for the competition. If anyone releases a FFMF mirrorless with a focal plane shutter or an electronic global shutter to accommodate legacy glass, the conversation will move elsewhere quickly. 
« Last Edit: June 25, 2016, 06:42:33 pm by markymarkrb »
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eronald

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Re: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?
« Reply #568 on: June 25, 2016, 08:09:27 pm »

As much as the camera is growing on me, I can't help but think that the door is still wide open for the competition. If anyone releases a FFMF mirrorless with a focal plane shutter or an electronic global shutter to accommodate legacy glass, the conversation will move elsewhere quickly.

If one follows this line of reasoning, then the warm reception seen so far should be interpreted as a wish for more :)

Edmund
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synn

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Re: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?
« Reply #569 on: June 26, 2016, 02:52:01 am »

If one follows this line of reasoning, then the warm reception seen so far should be interpreted as a wish for more :)

Edmund

The angry mob led by Edmund himself.




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hjulenissen

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Re: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?
« Reply #570 on: June 26, 2016, 04:59:35 am »

Looks, status and brand is a factor when people buy cameras, yes. That's why there are luxury editions or accessories. It's not the only factor but it's there more or less depending on the buyer. Leica and Hasselblad has the brands that can build on that more than others.
Camera manufacturers obviously spend resources on product appearance. This indcates that they believe that looks means something to the average buyer.

Of course, perfectly rational buyers are not average in any way and through complete insight into their own mind they just switch off biases as needed.

h
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 05:08:05 am by hjulenissen »
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hjulenissen

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Re: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?
« Reply #571 on: June 26, 2016, 05:05:05 am »

If Hasselblad can make this camera in Sweden targeting a relatively small production run... What prices can we expect if the Japanese big players decide to have a go at it?

I am guessing that many D810/5Ds owners would be willing to sacrifice AF speed, framerate, lens selection etc if they could have the argueably "best" camera sensor out there without increased size, weight, a moderate price increase.

-h
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?
« Reply #572 on: June 26, 2016, 07:23:15 am »

If Hasselblad can make this camera in Sweden targeting a relatively small production run... What prices can we expect if the Japanese big players decide to have a go at it?

I am guessing that many D810/5Ds owners would be willing to sacrifice AF speed, framerate, lens selection etc if they could have the argueably "best" camera sensor out there without increased size, weight, a moderate price increase.

Potentially yes, that will depend also on what is announced next by Nikon and Sony.

I have a very significant investement in F mount lenses, many of which without equivalent in the MF world.

I would be a question of figuring out what I would do with what camera, what I would gain in terms of look/image quality/success ratio, the cost impact,...

The X1D is interesting but I don't know yet if it is interesting enough to replace my collection of Otus lenses. I would gain AF, a slightly larger sensor but would loose some DoF control and possibly a few points in lens quality and ability to fine tune manual focus.

It really is a difficult call and I am not sure that testing the X1D for a few minutes would provide decisive decision making information.

Cheers,
Bernard

landscapephoto

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Re: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?
« Reply #573 on: June 26, 2016, 07:39:52 am »

Potentially yes, that will depend also on what is announced next by Nikon and Sony.

I have a very significant investement in F mount lenses, many of which without equivalent in the MF world.

I don't get your reasoning. F-mount lenses are designed for a 24x36 sensor, they will not cover anything bigger as a rule. Or do you expect Nikon to announce a mirrorless camera with a 24x36 sensor capable to use F-mount lenses? That camera already exists, is made by Sony and is called A7.
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synn

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Re: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?
« Reply #574 on: June 26, 2016, 07:45:45 am »

If Hasselblad can make this camera in Sweden targeting a relatively small production run... What prices can we expect if the Japanese big players decide to have a go at it?

I am guessing that many D810/5Ds owners would be willing to sacrifice AF speed, framerate, lens selection etc if they could have the argueably "best" camera sensor out there without increased size, weight, a moderate price increase.

-h

I am one of those people.
For most of my work, the AF speed, points, frame rate etc. of my D800 is too much camera.

I use it mostly when I need ISO flexibility, extra long exposures or an ultra wide perspective.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?
« Reply #575 on: June 26, 2016, 08:05:51 am »

I don't get your reasoning. F-mount lenses are designed for a 24x36 sensor, they will not cover anything bigger as a rule. Or do you expect Nikon to announce a mirrorless camera with a 24x36 sensor capable to use F-mount lenses? That camera already exists, is made by Sony and is called A7.

To me EVF is a means by which MFish bodies like the X1D can get in the same bulk ballpark as DSLR or even a bit smaller, but I would buy the X1D in spite of its EVF, not thanks to its EVF.

So that aspect won't have a huge influence on my decision, the decision will be driven by image quality and by the lack of major inderhance in terms of usability (a poorly implemented auto ISO could by itself remove any image quality advantage at iso usability),...

I am not sure that a 50mp X1D with its apparently excellent lenses would deliver superior image quality compared to a 70mp D900/a9 with an Otus. It may or it may not.

From a cost standpoint, moving to the X1D would probably cost me around 5,000 US$ + the annoyance of having to manage auction sales. There better be a significant advantage. ;) In comparison upgrading to a D900 would cost me around 2,000 US$ and I would be able to use my full range of lenses with it...

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 08:13:47 am by BernardLanguillier »
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eronald

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Re: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?
« Reply #576 on: June 26, 2016, 08:48:10 am »

If Hasselblad can make this camera in Sweden targeting a relatively small production run... What prices can we expect if the Japanese big players decide to have a go at it?

I am guessing that many D810/5Ds owners would be willing to sacrifice AF speed, framerate, lens selection etc if they could have the argueably "best" camera sensor out there without increased size, weight, a moderate price increase.

-h

Production in Japan won't be cheaper than in Sweden, but a big group could source latest generation EVF and display and sensor to which non-japanese wouldn't get access. As we all know, Phase and Hassy displays were for a long time not exactly the most appealing part of the product, and this trend seems to continue with the new Hassy EVF.

And then there is this perverse japanese attitude that normal members of society are supposed to be able to afford consumer products, whereas as Hasselblad once told me they see themselves as "reserved for an Elite". So I would expect a Fuji or Pentax product to trade at most at 60% of the swedish product. On the other hand, the swedish product may have more "western" design, have buttons physically sized for westerners with large hands, and be better repairable.

A french engineer who subcontracted some instrument manufacture for me had portable audio disc jockey mix stations of his own design as a steady seller. One of the sales points was that the buttons were separated enough for "American disc-jockeys with very thick fingers". Also, as it is very conventional discrete electronics it can stand up to any amount of abuse and is field-repairable by anyone with a soldering iron.

I think there is room for both western and eastern build philosophies and pricepoints; personally I have always preferred the western designs, more stolid and more solid. The market doesn't share my opinion, as the large German camera industry has mostly died out.

Edmund
« Last Edit: June 26, 2016, 08:55:37 am by eronald »
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kers

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Re: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?
« Reply #577 on: June 26, 2016, 08:56:47 am »

I think it is truly outstanding from HBlad to be introducing a kind of FF EVF camera before Nikon and Canon; Usually Medium format is lagging a few years behind.
I am sure the next half year we will see more FF-mirrorles coming.

Looking back I think especially Nikon has missed a great opportunity to bring out Otus-type of lenses as soon as they released the D3x with its excellent sensor.
Instead they released a new 300€  mediocre -50mm1.4;  as if they did not understand that they were entering a new era were FF can be as good as a former Hblad.
At that time they had a two years advantage with the 24MP sensor over the competition.
Now, with the knowledge from making the Nikon1 series they know exactly how to built a good FF-mirrorless.
If it has an outstanding EVF it could be surpassing Hasselblad for the first time in terms of the quality of the viewfinder.
Sony and Hblad make sure that we are entering the FF-EVF-era, from now on. I personally would like a camera that has both a very good OVF and a very good EVF to choose from.
At the moment my EVF is the viewfinder with a loop. Good EVF, but not very convenient.
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eronald

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Re: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?
« Reply #578 on: June 26, 2016, 09:11:12 am »

Looking back I think especially Nikon has missed a great opportunity to bring out Otus-type of lenses as soon as they released the D3x with its excellent sensor.
Instead they released a new 300€  mediocre -50mm1.4;  as if they did not understand that they were entering a new era were FF can be as good as a former Hblad.

I took my new-design 85/1.4 and my D3x with me to Boulder when I visited Norman, the author of Imatest. We set up together, and he then said it was the best lens he'd ever tested. In the sense that it outresolved the D3x so far that we could barely see any variation across the field.

Like many, I prefer my old 85 to the newish one, but it is clear that at least some lens teams in Nikon shared your point of view that 35mm could be very very good, technically speaking.

Edmund
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Hasselblad's "game changer" 22nd of June?
« Reply #579 on: June 26, 2016, 03:20:39 pm »

Hi Bernard,

Interesting and good questions.

Best regards
Erik

Potentially yes, that will depend also on what is announced next by Nikon and Sony.

I have a very significant investement in F mount lenses, many of which without equivalent in the MF world.

I would be a question of figuring out what I would do with what camera, what I would gain in terms of look/image quality/success ratio, the cost impact,...

The X1D is interesting but I don't know yet if it is interesting enough to replace my collection of Otus lenses. I would gain AF, a slightly larger sensor but would loose some DoF control and possibly a few points in lens quality and ability to fine tune manual focus.

It really is a difficult call and I am not sure that testing the X1D for a few minutes would provide decisive decision making information.

Cheers,
Bernard
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