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Author Topic: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?  (Read 11576 times)

Phil Indeblanc

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Each time I make an adjustments, and since I make them in small increments, its vital to see it happening without a image shift.
But since things go blurry for a second when making an adjustment, and then it shows the change, this makes it very hard to reference the before and after.

(*updated: In 100% view. I don't see the "wink" blurry couple screens in the 50% view...testing with new card)

I never thought the problems this type of "image viewing" causes would be something overlooked by C1.

This is something Ronald Rensink has explained.
http://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~rensink/

Does anyone know what I'm even talking about? (of course, If you use C1)
« Last Edit: November 18, 2015, 12:00:13 pm by Phil Indeblanc »
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Ash Pitman

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I know what you're talking about. Changing the Clarity or High Dynamic Range sliders causes the image to spaz out for a second while it recalculates. Other changes, like exposure, seem to recalculate faster, but it's still noticeable. I think it gets worse when I lower the preview resolution setting (set to max 5120px). Lightroom applies the changes much more smoothly. But I like the C1 results better.
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Paul2660

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Actually for me, C1 has very smooth transitions none of the shifts etc.  This is with an image at normal or 100% view, the time for the adjustment is quick and not problematic.  LR on the other hand, I see the problem you are seeing in C1, interesting. This is on Phase One, Nikon Canon or Fuji images.  I tend to use the heck out of local adjustments, most times over 5 and still no slow down.  I do see some issues after C1 is left open for a long time, mainly with processing out files.  But closing and reopening seems to fix that.  I have always assumed it's a memory leak or something.  I am running in session mode only.

I am running W7 64 bit 32GB of ram on a 1GB nvidia GX470 card (soon to be upgraded), and I have open CL enabled. 

LR is slow on everything for me, 100% zoom, loading images in that have been worked on previously, and any of the sliders.  I still don't get a jump image, but there is hesitation when they are moved. 

Paul C
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Paul Caldwell
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Phil Indeblanc

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I have used both and only have it happening on C1.  My system is also Win7-64 but I think I have either 16 or 24gb ram/Its been a while!
I have 4gb vram, and SSD OS, SSD PageFile, SSD scratch for PS.  I am using Open GL, and as much as I can complain about LR being slow, it NEVER draws a "in between image" that kills any reference to a before vs after memory comparison. AND this is with the C1 files being on the SSD OS vs the files for LR being on a server.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2015, 02:52:10 am by Phil Indeblanc »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Each time I make an adjustments, and since I make them in small increments, its vital to see it happening without a image shift.
But since things go blurry for a second when making an adjustment, and then it shows the change, this makes it very hard to reference the before and after.

I never thought the problems this type of "image viewing" causes would be something overlooked by C1.

Hi Phil,

I'm not sure that Phase One 'overlooked' it, they just designed it differently, to be less of a memory hog (perhaps with large HR screens in mind).

When I want to compare before/after previews, without pause when switching between image versions, I (temporarily) create a Cloned Variant. Then switching between (any of) them is instant, and you can have multiple variants to compare between. You can promote or demote variants as to their preference, so you can also compare versions that are wildly different, e.g. with more than one slider adjustment between versions.

Since only the zoomed in part of the image needs to be cached, it should require less memory to cache, which becomes increasingly important on systems with limited RAM and with large HD displays. It also makes it possible to apply certain adjustments to only the primary variant, or to all or only selected variants.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: November 05, 2015, 03:27:03 am by BartvanderWolf »
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Phil Indeblanc

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That maybe a helpful work around in a pinch, but can you imagine the Structure, Clarity, Sharpening and about 3-7 different steps within each I might go through to see how the file looks? This would be a very slow process.
I don't know why Paul experiences the opposite.  So far 3 of us see this and Paul sees it on LR, NOT C1.

This either tells me I am not clear to some on the explanation of the actual issue, or Paul misunderstood whats happening, or that our systems can be configured to work properly on one software vs the other like Paul's.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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That maybe a helpful work around in a pinch, but can you imagine the Structure, Clarity, Sharpening and about 3-7 different steps within each I might go through to see how the file looks? This would be a very slow process.

Maybe, but also note that the individual panels have an instant temporary undo while pressing the Alt key.

Cheers,
Bart
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gdh

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Never had that problem.  I upgraded to MacPro early last year with plenty memory, high processing speed, D700 graphics card.  I process a full 480~mb tiff in less than 5 seconds from large 62mp raw files--it cooks and changes in adjustments are instant.

I'd look at video/graphics card or processor and processor speed.  But I'm no expert by any means

StuartOnline

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I do not have a rendering problem.  My issue is each time I move C1 (drag) to the external monitor the program crashes. It is the only program I have this issue with.
Current system is a MacBook Pro Retina 15" (June2012) 2.6 GHz Intel Core i7, 16 GB 1600 MHz DDR3, NVIDIA GeForce GT 650M 1024 MB with an Apple Cinema 24" Display as the external monitor. Running the most recent release of C1 8.3.4 with El Capitan 10.11.1. Have submitted a support ticket to C1 but they have yet to figure out what is causing this problem.

Stu
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Phil Indeblanc

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Maybe, but also note that the individual panels have an instant temporary undo while pressing the Alt key.

Cheers,
Bart

Maybe, but also note that the individual panels have an instant temporary undo while pressing the Alt key.

Cheers,
Bart

this is a good suggestion for me. I think I will give it a try... thanks.

My system is a i7 Quad 860 2.8-3.4Ghz.
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David Grover / Phase One

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Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2015, 04:40:35 pm »

this is a good suggestion for me. I think I will give it a try... thanks.

My system is a i7 Quad 860 2.8-3.4Ghz.

Gpu?
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Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2015, 05:19:35 pm »

Gpu?

nVidia GeForce GTX 460. I'll check the ram, but i think its 2 or 4gb?
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2015, 07:18:27 pm »

When using a powerful GPU which is supported by Phase One's Open CL engine, and when making sure Open CL is on in the preferences, C1 should render most types of adjustments instantly. Here is an article we wrote on Upgrading computer hardware for Capture One. Executive summary of that article: GPU is really the thing that matters now.

We are at a tradeshow today with a Mac Pro with dual D700 graphics cards and an Eizo 4k monitor. Most adjustments on 80mp raw files are instant in Capture One 8.3.4.

Phil Indeblanc

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Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2015, 07:42:28 pm »

My mem is dedicated 1GB and Total available is 4GB

Thanks Doug....
Iff its "MOST" can you let us know which sliders are not, and why it needs to create a "in between" image ?

If it didn't instantly show it, NO PROBLEM, its the inbetween that ruins things. (That flash of blurry)
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David Grover / Phase One

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Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2015, 04:40:50 am »

My mem is dedicated 1GB and Total available is 4GB

Thanks Doug....
Iff its "MOST" can you let us know which sliders are not, and why it needs to create a "in between" image ?

If it didn't instantly show it, NO PROBLEM, its the inbetween that ruins things. (That flash of blurry)

If I remember correctly the GTX460 is only 1GB max, and also 4GB of memory is pretty low for any OS and Imaging program.

I think that probably describes your problem!

David
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David Grover
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JaapD

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Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2015, 05:16:28 am »

When using a powerful GPU which is supported by Phase One's Open CL engine, and when making sure Open CL is on in the preferences, C1 should render most types of adjustments instantly. Here is an article we wrote on Upgrading computer hardware for Capture One. Executive summary of that article: GPU is really the thing that matters now.

Unfortunately C1 does NOT support GPU processing on Fuji RAF files. While the CPU is doing the job the GPU is sitting doing nothing here.

@ David Grover: please support GPU processing on Fuji RAF files in a next release. yes?
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David Grover / Phase One

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Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2015, 06:00:20 am »

Unfortunately C1 does NOT support GPU processing on Fuji RAF files. While the CPU is doing the job the GPU is sitting doing nothing here.

@ David Grover: please support GPU processing on Fuji RAF files in a next release. yes?

As you know Fuji doesn't use the Bayer Mosaic and a lot of the computations are based on that.  So therefore its quite a task to enable it for OpenCl too.
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David Grover
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JaapD

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Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2015, 08:08:10 am »

As you know Fuji doesn't use the Bayer Mosaic and a lot of the computations are based on that.  So therefore its quite a task to enable it for OpenCl too.

Hi David,
I am indeed fully aware of this. Even FastRawViewer is capable of doing OpenCL processing on Fuji RAF files and others are able to do so as well.

Image processing is mostly matrix operations and just this can very well be done by OpenCL. Matlab is another example of a software package performing GPU matrix and image computations, able to do much more complex calculations than this RAF 6x6 demosaicing. Iím sure your software developers are perfectly capable to write the required code and I expect itís only held up at your management or marketing level.

Soooo, how could we convince PhaseOne of the necessity for GPU RAF processing? By investigation the quantity of users that specifically chose for C1 for to handle their Fuji files? Your ideas and suggestions are very welcome!


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David Grover / Phase One

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Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2015, 10:13:42 am »

Hi David,
I am indeed fully aware of this. Even FastRawViewer is capable of doing OpenCL processing on Fuji RAF files and others are able to do so as well.

Image processing is mostly matrix operations and just this can very well be done by OpenCL. Matlab is another example of a software package performing GPU matrix and image computations, able to do much more complex calculations than this RAF 6x6 demosaicing. Iím sure your software developers are perfectly capable to write the required code and I expect itís only held up at your management or marketing level.

Soooo, how could we convince PhaseOne of the necessity for GPU RAF processing? By investigation the quantity of users that specifically chose for C1 for to handle their Fuji files? Your ideas and suggestions are very welcome!

Everybody is indeed perfectly capable and there is no 'holding up' with this or any other feature.

It is always a tricky matter (for the Product Manager) to decide what man hours to put where, as I am sure you understand!

So!  As a proactive suggestion, and feature request is officially logged if you make a support case.  Encourage your Fuji friends to do so.  ;)

https://www.phaseone.com/en/SupportMain.aspx

Use the last link - contact support.
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David Grover
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AlterEgo

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Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2015, 10:19:05 am »

Even FastRawViewer
that was mean, as if FRV is some kind of shitty software, pardon my language...
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