Luminous Landscape Forum

Raw & Post Processing, Printing => Capture One Q&A => Topic started by: Phil Indeblanc on November 03, 2015, 01:57:46 pm

Title: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on November 03, 2015, 01:57:46 pm
Each time I make an adjustments, and since I make them in small increments, its vital to see it happening without a image shift.
But since things go blurry for a second when making an adjustment, and then it shows the change, this makes it very hard to reference the before and after.

(*updated: In 100% view. I don't see the "wink" blurry couple screens in the 50% view...testing with new card)

I never thought the problems this type of "image viewing" causes would be something overlooked by C1.

This is something Ronald Rensink has explained.
http://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~rensink/

Does anyone know what I'm even talking about? (of course, If you use C1)
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: Ash Pitman on November 03, 2015, 07:35:35 pm
I know what you're talking about. Changing the Clarity or High Dynamic Range sliders causes the image to spaz out for a second while it recalculates. Other changes, like exposure, seem to recalculate faster, but it's still noticeable. I think it gets worse when I lower the preview resolution setting (set to max 5120px). Lightroom applies the changes much more smoothly. But I like the C1 results better.
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: Paul2660 on November 03, 2015, 08:05:33 pm
Actually for me, C1 has very smooth transitions none of the shifts etc.  This is with an image at normal or 100% view, the time for the adjustment is quick and not problematic.  LR on the other hand, I see the problem you are seeing in C1, interesting. This is on Phase One, Nikon Canon or Fuji images.  I tend to use the heck out of local adjustments, most times over 5 and still no slow down.  I do see some issues after C1 is left open for a long time, mainly with processing out files.  But closing and reopening seems to fix that.  I have always assumed it's a memory leak or something.  I am running in session mode only.

I am running W7 64 bit 32GB of ram on a 1GB nvidia GX470 card (soon to be upgraded), and I have open CL enabled. 

LR is slow on everything for me, 100% zoom, loading images in that have been worked on previously, and any of the sliders.  I still don't get a jump image, but there is hesitation when they are moved. 

Paul C
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on November 05, 2015, 02:08:45 am
I have used both and only have it happening on C1.  My system is also Win7-64 but I think I have either 16 or 24gb ram/Its been a while!
I have 4gb vram, and SSD OS, SSD PageFile, SSD scratch for PS.  I am using Open GL, and as much as I can complain about LR being slow, it NEVER draws a "in between image" that kills any reference to a before vs after memory comparison. AND this is with the C1 files being on the SSD OS vs the files for LR being on a server.
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on November 05, 2015, 03:16:13 am
Each time I make an adjustments, and since I make them in small increments, its vital to see it happening without a image shift.
But since things go blurry for a second when making an adjustment, and then it shows the change, this makes it very hard to reference the before and after.

I never thought the problems this type of "image viewing" causes would be something overlooked by C1.

Hi Phil,

I'm not sure that Phase One 'overlooked' it, they just designed it differently, to be less of a memory hog (perhaps with large HR screens in mind).

When I want to compare before/after previews, without pause when switching between image versions, I (temporarily) create a Cloned Variant. Then switching between (any of) them is instant, and you can have multiple variants to compare between. You can promote or demote variants as to their preference, so you can also compare versions that are wildly different, e.g. with more than one slider adjustment between versions.

Since only the zoomed in part of the image needs to be cached, it should require less memory to cache, which becomes increasingly important on systems with limited RAM and with large HD displays. It also makes it possible to apply certain adjustments to only the primary variant, or to all or only selected variants.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on November 05, 2015, 12:17:55 pm
That maybe a helpful work around in a pinch, but can you imagine the Structure, Clarity, Sharpening and about 3-7 different steps within each I might go through to see how the file looks? This would be a very slow process.
I don't know why Paul experiences the opposite.  So far 3 of us see this and Paul sees it on LR, NOT C1.

This either tells me I am not clear to some on the explanation of the actual issue, or Paul misunderstood whats happening, or that our systems can be configured to work properly on one software vs the other like Paul's.
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on November 05, 2015, 12:31:38 pm
That maybe a helpful work around in a pinch, but can you imagine the Structure, Clarity, Sharpening and about 3-7 different steps within each I might go through to see how the file looks? This would be a very slow process.

Maybe, but also note that the individual panels have an instant temporary undo while pressing the Alt key.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: gdh on November 05, 2015, 12:38:25 pm
Never had that problem.  I upgraded to MacPro early last year with plenty memory, high processing speed, D700 graphics card.  I process a full 480~mb tiff in less than 5 seconds from large 62mp raw files--it cooks and changes in adjustments are instant.

I'd look at video/graphics card or processor and processor speed.  But I'm no expert by any means
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: StuartOnline on November 05, 2015, 01:18:35 pm
I do not have a rendering problem.  My issue is each time I move C1 (drag) to the external monitor the program crashes. It is the only program I have this issue with.
Current system is a MacBook Pro Retina 15" (June2012) 2.6 GHz Intel Core i7, 16 GB 1600 MHz DDR3, NVIDIA GeForce GT 650M 1024 MB with an Apple Cinema 24" Display as the external monitor. Running the most recent release of C1 8.3.4 with El Capitan 10.11.1. Have submitted a support ticket to C1 but they have yet to figure out what is causing this problem.

Stu
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on November 05, 2015, 03:25:02 pm
Maybe, but also note that the individual panels have an instant temporary undo while pressing the Alt key.

Cheers,
Bart

Maybe, but also note that the individual panels have an instant temporary undo while pressing the Alt key.

Cheers,
Bart

this is a good suggestion for me. I think I will give it a try... thanks.

My system is a i7 Quad 860 2.8-3.4Ghz.
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on November 05, 2015, 04:40:35 pm
this is a good suggestion for me. I think I will give it a try... thanks.

My system is a i7 Quad 860 2.8-3.4Ghz.

Gpu?
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on November 05, 2015, 05:19:35 pm
Gpu?

nVidia GeForce GTX 460. I'll check the ram, but i think its 2 or 4gb?
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: Doug Peterson on November 05, 2015, 07:18:27 pm
When using a powerful GPU which is supported by Phase One's Open CL engine, and when making sure Open CL is on in the preferences, C1 should render most types of adjustments instantly. Here is an article we wrote on Upgrading computer hardware for Capture One (https://digitaltransitions.com/blog/workflow-wizard/computer-upgrades). Executive summary of that article: GPU is really the thing that matters now.

We are at a tradeshow today with a Mac Pro with dual D700 graphics cards and an Eizo 4k monitor. Most adjustments on 80mp raw files are instant in Capture One 8.3.4.
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on November 05, 2015, 07:42:28 pm
My mem is dedicated 1GB and Total available is 4GB

Thanks Doug....
Iff its "MOST" can you let us know which sliders are not, and why it needs to create a "in between" image ?

If it didn't instantly show it, NO PROBLEM, its the inbetween that ruins things. (That flash of blurry)
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on November 06, 2015, 04:40:50 am
My mem is dedicated 1GB and Total available is 4GB

Thanks Doug....
Iff its "MOST" can you let us know which sliders are not, and why it needs to create a "in between" image ?

If it didn't instantly show it, NO PROBLEM, its the inbetween that ruins things. (That flash of blurry)

If I remember correctly the GTX460 is only 1GB max, and also 4GB of memory is pretty low for any OS and Imaging program.

I think that probably describes your problem!

David
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: JaapD on November 06, 2015, 05:16:28 am
When using a powerful GPU which is supported by Phase One's Open CL engine, and when making sure Open CL is on in the preferences, C1 should render most types of adjustments instantly. Here is an article we wrote on Upgrading computer hardware for Capture One (https://digitaltransitions.com/blog/workflow-wizard/computer-upgrades). Executive summary of that article: GPU is really the thing that matters now.

Unfortunately C1 does NOT support GPU processing on Fuji RAF files. While the CPU is doing the job the GPU is sitting doing nothing here.

@ David Grover: please support GPU processing on Fuji RAF files in a next release. yes?
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on November 06, 2015, 06:00:20 am
Unfortunately C1 does NOT support GPU processing on Fuji RAF files. While the CPU is doing the job the GPU is sitting doing nothing here.

@ David Grover: please support GPU processing on Fuji RAF files in a next release. yes?

As you know Fuji doesn't use the Bayer Mosaic and a lot of the computations are based on that.  So therefore its quite a task to enable it for OpenCl too.
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: JaapD on November 06, 2015, 08:08:10 am
As you know Fuji doesn't use the Bayer Mosaic and a lot of the computations are based on that.  So therefore its quite a task to enable it for OpenCl too.

Hi David,
I am indeed fully aware of this. Even FastRawViewer is capable of doing OpenCL processing on Fuji RAF files and others are able to do so as well.

Image processing is mostly matrix operations and just this can very well be done by OpenCL. Matlab is another example of a software package performing GPU matrix and image computations, able to do much more complex calculations than this RAF 6x6 demosaicing. Iím sure your software developers are perfectly capable to write the required code and I expect itís only held up at your management or marketing level.

Soooo, how could we convince PhaseOne of the necessity for GPU RAF processing? By investigation the quantity of users that specifically chose for C1 for to handle their Fuji files? Your ideas and suggestions are very welcome!


Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on November 06, 2015, 10:13:42 am
Hi David,
I am indeed fully aware of this. Even FastRawViewer is capable of doing OpenCL processing on Fuji RAF files and others are able to do so as well.

Image processing is mostly matrix operations and just this can very well be done by OpenCL. Matlab is another example of a software package performing GPU matrix and image computations, able to do much more complex calculations than this RAF 6x6 demosaicing. Iím sure your software developers are perfectly capable to write the required code and I expect itís only held up at your management or marketing level.

Soooo, how could we convince PhaseOne of the necessity for GPU RAF processing? By investigation the quantity of users that specifically chose for C1 for to handle their Fuji files? Your ideas and suggestions are very welcome!

Everybody is indeed perfectly capable and there is no 'holding up' with this or any other feature.

It is always a tricky matter (for the Product Manager) to decide what man hours to put where, as I am sure you understand!

So!  As a proactive suggestion, and feature request is officially logged if you make a support case.  Encourage your Fuji friends to do so.  ;)

https://www.phaseone.com/en/SupportMain.aspx

Use the last link - contact support.
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: AlterEgo on November 06, 2015, 10:19:05 am
Even FastRawViewer
that was mean, as if FRV is some kind of shitty software, pardon my language...
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: JaapD on November 06, 2015, 11:43:58 am
that was mean, as if FRV is some kind of shitty software, pardon my language...

Point taken! Allow me to explain a bit. I am a paying customer and also a huge fan of FRV. It's an impressive piece of software with respect to its performance. I have shared my positive attitude of FRV to many forum readers on Lula, GetDPI and FujiX. The same is applicable to C1 by the way.

The thing is that with FRV there is not a complete sw development team behind it, and because of this I used the word 'even'. With C1 there is a complete development team behind it and therefore I expect more from them!
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on November 09, 2015, 11:56:40 am
If I remember correctly the GTX460 is only 1GB max, and also 4GB of memory is pretty low for any OS and Imaging program.

I think that probably describes your problem!

David

You asked me about my video and that is the ram I was referring to. My system ram is at least 16GB, the Total available graphic is 4GB while dedicated is 1GB.

How much VRam do I need so I don't get ANY of my adjustments to throw up a blurry inbetween frame when developing?
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on November 09, 2015, 03:27:21 pm
You asked me about my video and that is the ram I was referring to. My system ram is at least 16GB, the Total available graphic is 4GB while dedicated is 1GB.

How much VRam do I need so I don't get ANY of my adjustments to throw up a blurry inbetween frame when developing?

Is it this card Phil?

http://www.geforce.com/hardware/desktop-gpus/geforce-gtx-460/specifications

I only see max 1GB.

I would also check for the latest drivers (WIN) for that card, incase there is an update.

Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: E.J. Peiker on November 09, 2015, 04:32:52 pm
I definitely see that on my 2.6GHz i7(dual core) 16GB, 1TB SSD, MacBook Pro and it is a bit annoying - you can see it in David Grover's webinars as well and he is using a MBP in those.   But on my workstation class desktop (4GHz i7quad core, 32GB, SSD, Nvidia GEForce-760 Titanium (3GB)) there is no lag whatsoever - everything is real time.
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on November 09, 2015, 08:05:32 pm
Is it this card Phil?

http://www.geforce.com/hardware/desktop-gpus/geforce-gtx-460/specifications

I only see max 1GB.

I would also check for the latest drivers (WIN) for that card, incase there is an update.


Yes David, one of the 2 1 GB cards.I guess a 3GB is the answer? I think at one time my thought process was to tryy and limit this, as ,y thinking was that the OS will now take 3GB of the system ram and put it towards the Video ram. Not sure if that is correct, but. Also thanks E.J , at least I should have the like results with a Vram increase.  Good idea about the driver update David, thanks.

I hope I can get it to work without the glitch.

Doug was saying most adjustments should be no delay/in-between image....which are the most taxing?
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on November 10, 2015, 03:53:57 am
I definitely see that on my 2.6GHz i7(dual core) 16GB, 1TB SSD, MacBook Pro and it is a bit annoying - you can see it in David Grover's webinars as well and he is using a MBP in those.   But on my workstation class desktop (4GHz i7quad core, 32GB, SSD, Nvidia GEForce-760 Titanium (3GB)) there is no lag whatsoever - everything is real time.

Hey Ej- That's more GTW catching up and a low frame rate.  Its pretty much real time on the MBP too.  ;)
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on November 10, 2015, 03:55:18 am

Yes David, one of the 2 1 GB cards.I guess a 3GB is the answer? I think at one time my thought process was to tryy and limit this, as ,y thinking was that the OS will now take 3GB of the system ram and put it towards the Video ram. Not sure if that is correct, but. Also thanks E.J , at least I should have the like results with a Vram increase.  Good idea about the driver update David, thanks.

I hope I can get it to work without the glitch.

Doug was saying most adjustments should be no delay/in-between image....which are the most taxing?

Hey Phil,

Hmmm doesn't really work like that.  A low spec card is a low spec card.  Memory is one thing but its processor speed should also be taken into account.

I would recommend investing in a decent video card.

David
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on November 10, 2015, 04:11:44 am
OK, whats your top 5 recommendations?

thanks!
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on November 10, 2015, 10:38:23 am
OK, whats your top 5 recommendations?

thanks!

https://www.phaseone.com/en/Search/Article.aspx?articleid=1720&languageid=1

Top 5?  Spend as much as you can and go from there.

That article should be from Jan 2015 not 2014.  Typo.
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: AlterEgo on November 10, 2015, 10:57:58 am
Yes David, one of the 2 1 GB cards.I guess a 3GB is the answer?
may be unlikely... I have GTX870M which scores versus the current best GPU in MacbookPro = http://gpuboss.com/gpus/Radeon-R9-M370X-Mac-vs-GeForce-GTX-870M and I do not have a fluid experience with C1 v8.x on A7R2 raws (I have 32gb RAM, 2xSSD, i7quad core CPU, etc in my notebook) ... now think about this - C1 does not work (unless a staged presentation) fluently on a top mac notebook... on top mac notebook, Carl !
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on November 10, 2015, 01:16:51 pm
Well shoot, there goes that answer to be the solution.
But I think I can gain from upgrading the card. Although recommending to get the most I can spend includes a bunch of cards designed for 3D and video that can run into $2000+
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: AlterEgo on November 10, 2015, 01:57:30 pm
But I think I can gain from upgrading the card.
hopefully

btw Adobe is not that far from P1... as Eric Chan just not so long ago put in Adobe Camera Raw forum over there - they (he himself actually) develop/test whatever he is in charge of in ACR/LR on a desktop machine with Nvidia K-class GPU (was it K5000 ? I think it was the one... $1000+ GPU) - now where are you going to feel the pain of an average Joe now ? granted Adobe markets the proxies solution where you edit a DNG proxy on a less capable computer where less power is OK and your edits are synced.
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on November 10, 2015, 02:10:47 pm
hopefully

btw Adobe is not that far from P1... as Eric Chan just not so long ago put in Adobe Camera Raw forum over there - they (he himself actually) develop/test whatever he is in charge of in ACR/LR on a desktop machine with Nvidia K-class GPU (was it K5000 ? I think it was the one... $1000+ GPU) - now where are you going to feel the pain of an average Joe now ? granted Adobe markets the proxies solution where you edit a DNG proxy on a less capable computer where less power is OK and your edits are synced.

Yes, LR has a delay, BUT the major issue is that there is no in-between brain erase of previous short term stored image. So you know the change you made (even the slightest).
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: Paul2660 on November 10, 2015, 02:14:17 pm
I would consider any of the Nvidia GX960 or 980.  They come in 4GB to 8GB but 4 should be fine.  128 or 256 cache. Again 128 should be fine.

Purchase of a high dollar card in 1K dollar or higher IMO is a waist for both C1 or LR these cards are meant for rendering and high speed video work  I don't see C1 needing this much video card.

You can pick up a 4GB Nvidia 960 in the 235.00 price range.

Paul C
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on November 10, 2015, 06:18:20 pm
Thanks Paul that helps. I also need to make sure it supports dual 30" 2560x(1440)1600 screens/Dual head display at the max res. I maybe upgrading one of the screens to be 4K soon...but if that opens up a new can of issues, I may need to get 2 cards, or a new one and the old gtx460 running now for the 2nd screen.

980 is $400 and up for a 4Gb!
I miss the days of Photoshop video card requirments :-/
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on November 11, 2015, 01:07:02 pm
Looks like CUDA core numbers would also help
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: AlterEgo on November 11, 2015, 01:14:03 pm
Looks like CUDA core numbers would also help
P1 people stated that C1 will be using (always ?) all GPUs - both iGPU (in CPU) and dGPU... so you might consider getting a dual dGPU
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on November 11, 2015, 03:12:23 pm
I'm getting the 970 SSC. On Newegg for about 300+
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: The View on November 12, 2015, 02:44:14 am
It is typical for C1 that different users have different problems on different machines.

Maybe because they are a small company and cannot test for all setups.

I don't experience the problem described here - but I had it show up a few times and know what Phil is talking about. I'm on a 3 year old MacBook Pro, and it can handle it fine without the blurs.


But I have trouble exporting images - the progress bar goes all crazy when I export, the minutes count down in fast speed, then it disappears, and then it's there again. That's the problem probably only few people have as well (and forget exporting hundreds of images. C1 just doesn't do it)

Phase One likes to tell you your graphics card is bad or switch off the use of the graphics card for general calculating operation, but I think they go too fast with the versions - or there is some old code under the hood that doesn't work with the newest settings. C1 is a bit like a sports car that delivers great results - but it's very maintenance intensive, and when you want to change the oil, you have to take out the engine ;)
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on November 12, 2015, 07:55:26 am
It is typical for C1 that different users have different problems on different machines.

Maybe because they are a small company and cannot test for all setups.

I don't experience the problem described here - but I had it show up a few times and know what Phil is talking about. I'm on a 3 year old MacBook Pro, and it can handle it fine without the blurs.


But I have trouble exporting images - the progress bar goes all crazy when I export, the minutes count down in fast speed, then it disappears, and then it's there again. That's the problem probably only few people have as well (and forget exporting hundreds of images. C1 just doesn't do it)

Phase One likes to tell you your graphics card is bad or switch off the use of the graphics card for general calculating operation, but I think they go too fast with the versions - or there is some old code under the hood that doesn't work with the newest settings. C1 is a bit like a sports car that delivers great results - but it's very maintenance intensive, and when you want to change the oil, you have to take out the engine ;)

Hi,

Part of the difficulty, besides hardware differences, is that there are several versions of the acceleration standards, and things may change with updates of the various drivers. Chasing a moving target adds to the difficulty of pinning it down.

One may need to additionally verify/specify the version of OpenCL (mainly GPU acceleration), or openGL (mainly display acceleration) that a system is actually running on (if it is not logged/reported automatically on error by C1). I vaguely remember updating my openCL version long ago for some application, and maybe that helped in other places as well. Too many inter-dependencies make it harder to troubleshoot.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on November 12, 2015, 12:36:44 pm
P1 people stated that C1 will be using (always ?) all GPUs - both iGPU (in CPU) and dGPU... so you might consider getting a dual dGPU

I found 1 !!!
http://amzn.com/B007ZRO3U4

What a bargain at $1995!

thats under $2000
To make the most of my C1 software. Hmmmm

I'll stick to this 970. For a quiet one its already close to $400 for just C1, as LR is not having the issue with the same files.  But I do like C1 results, and I think a video card update may have already been needed...Well, I should upgrade my Mobo and processor and do 32gb ram as well...But things are moving along fine.  A laptop is what I need next, But this might be a BIGGER issue to spec out for C1!!
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on November 12, 2015, 12:59:54 pm
I found 1 !!!
http://amzn.com/B007ZRO3U4

What a bargain at $1995!

thats under $2000
To make the most of my C1 software. Hmmmm

Well, not only C1. All GPU enabled soft ware should benefit, although Lightroom seems to run slower, Hmmmm.
SNS-HDR's new version 2, currently in Alpha stage, seems to be much (more than 2x) faster according to some users, due to hardware/GPU acceleration.

Quote
I'll stick to this 970. For a quiet one its already close to $400 for just C1, as LR is not having the issue with the same files.  But I do like C1 results, and I think a video card update may have already been needed...Well, I should upgrade my Mobo and processor and do 32gb ram as well...But things are moving along fine.  A laptop is what I need next, But this might be a BIGGER issue to spec out for C1!!

Looks like a fine choice, although the 'need' for speed continues and, what's worse,... we tend to get used to the new situation fast as well.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on November 12, 2015, 06:45:42 pm
we will see in a couple days when I get it. I got the EVGA version http://amzn.com/B00NVODXR4

It says PCI3.0 or 2.0x16, and I'm crossing my fingers that my Asus P7P55D Pro can take it.....  If not, its a good way to pigeon hole(where did this idiom come from?) myself to getting a new setup :-)
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on November 17, 2015, 11:42:44 pm
So I went ahead and took the advice to get a new graphics card and it arrived today!

I got the one below the latest bleeding edge, the GTX970. the EVGA FTW version as they had a high clock speed. 

I fired up C1, and used the same image I shot last with P1/22mp file, and same thing with the Exposure, Contrast, Highlight Shados, Brightness slider and other top adjustments. At least the Sharpen isn't doing it, but even Saturation does it.  Also it does it at the most critical time when it matters and you have it at 100% so you can see the details, but then goes blurry!! 

This just shouldn't be so, and I shouldn't have had to spend $300-400 just to find out that its about the same!
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: AlterEgo on November 18, 2015, 12:09:33 am
So I went ahead and took the advice to get a new graphics card and it arrived today!

I got the one below the latest bleeding edge, the GTX970. the EVGA FTW version as they had a high clock speed. 

I fired up C1, and used the same image I shot last with P1/22mp file, and same thing with the Exposure, Contrast, Highlight Shados, Brightness slider and other top adjustments. At least the Sharpen isn't doing it, but even Saturation does it.  Also it does it at the most critical time when it matters and you have it at 100% so you can see the details, but then goes blurry!! 

This just shouldn't be so, and I shouldn't have had to spend $300-400 just to find out that its about the same!

just in case - what C1 logs say about gpu performance ?
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on November 18, 2015, 12:19:18 am
Never checked the C1 logs...

Only logs I see is when I open or close, or camera error
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on November 18, 2015, 05:17:16 am
Never checked the C1 logs...

Only logs I see is when I open or close, or camera error

Is hardware acceleration enabled in C1 prefs?  Checked drivers for the card?

Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: Paul2660 on November 18, 2015, 09:31:44 am
Hi Phil.

You have a good card for sure, so the GPU is top.  I don't think C1 or LR can use the cards in the 2K range to any great benefit, at least on the win side of things.

As mentioned, make sure that the GPU is enabled under prefs.  In C1 you have two check boxes, both should auto.

You might need to do a total uninstall of C1 and go back and re-install it.  As I am sure you are aware, on the win side C1 leaves a ton of hooks in the OS.  On the Phase One site, they have a listing of everything that needs to be pulled off. 

If you are using a tech camera, copy all the LCC's out of their folder, as a totally true clean un-install will delete them also.  I can send you the location of the LCC folder, it's not where you think.

Paul C
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: Doug Peterson on November 18, 2015, 10:35:20 am
Also make sure your proxy/preview size is set to higher than the resolution you're viewing the images at.

For instance if you're on a 4k screen you need to increase the proxy/preview size from default. If you're on a normal res monitor you may want to lower the size from default.

Setting a new preview size does not effect previews that have already been drawn. So after changing this value make sure to regenerate the previews of any existing images.

When viewing an image larger than the preview that has been drawn for that image, C1 must use the raw data rather than the preview, which is much much slower.
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: Paul2660 on November 18, 2015, 11:48:28 am
Each time I make an adjustments, and since I make them in small increments, its vital to see it happening without a image shift.
But since things go blurry for a second when making an adjustment, and then it shows the change, this makes it very hard to reference the before and after.

I never thought the problems this type of "image viewing" causes would be something overlooked by C1.

This is something Ronald Rensink has explained.
http://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~rensink/

Does anyone know what I'm even talking about? (of course, If you use C1)

Phil,

I may have steered you wrong, I see now what you are talking about.  I miss read your 1st post.  Yes, when ever you make a change when viewing the image at 100%, the first 6 sliders, all wink the screen and the view blurs for a 1 sec or 2.  Then comes back with your effective change.  I don't see the wink when viewed in normal size, or default size where the viewer slider is all the way to the left.  All the changes with the image at this size don't do not exhibit the same issue.  I guess most of the time I make the adjustments like that I am not at 100% view.  Only for sharpening. 

I also checked in a local adjustment and the same is true for all 6 sliders again. 

And now you mention it, it is very distracting. 

Sorry for the bad call.

I am running win7 64 bit, 32 GB system ram, 4 GB Vram, C1 8.3.3.  One or two versions behind, but I tend to stay there as I have been bitten hard by moving too soon with C1, (like the disaster with the workspace issue that was a huge bug for win7 users before 8.3.3 and the minimize command).

I will look at the MAC version later today just to see if it does the same them on Yosemite. 
EDIT, Just looked, and on the Retina 15" Macbook pro late 2013 version, (purchased early 2014) with 16GB and whatever the graphics setup was (they are all the same), I see the exact same thing, albeit, faster and not quite as noticeable as on the Win side. Only on a 100% view. 

Paul
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: AlterEgo on November 18, 2015, 11:49:52 am
Never checked the C1 logs...
see, for example, the file like "ImgCoreExternal.log"... there you will find info like this :

> Logging is now active.                                                                                   
> CPU: GenuineIntel [Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4810MQ CPU @ 2.80GHz]                                             
> CPU features: MMX, SSE, SSE2, SSE3, SSSE3, SSE41, SSE42, AVX, AVX2, FMA, F16C, MOVBE, CX8, RDRAND, RDTSCP
> CPU features: POPCNT, BMI1, BMI2, LZCNT                                                                   
> OpenCL initialization...                                                                                 
> OpenCL : found platform Intel(R) OpenCL, OpenCL Version : OpenCL 1.2                                     
> OpenCL : found platform NVIDIA CUDA, OpenCL Version : OpenCL 1.1 CUDA 6.5.35                             
> OpenCL Device : Intel(R) HD Graphics 4600                                                                 
> OpenCL Driver Version : 10.18.14.4264                                                                     
> OpenCL Compute Units : 20                                                                                 
> OpenCL : Loading kernels                                                                                 
> OpenCL : Loading kernels finished                                                                         
> OpenCL : Benchmarking                                                                                     
> OpenCL : Initialization completed                                                                         
> OpenCL benchMark : 0.823120                                                                               
> OpenCL Device : GeForce GTX 870M                                                                         
> OpenCL Driver Version : 344.91                                                                           
> OpenCL Compute Units : 7                                                                                 
> OpenCL : Loading kernels                                                                                 
> OpenCL : Loading kernels finished                                                                         
> OpenCL : Benchmarking                                                                                     
> OpenCL : Initialization completed                                                                         
> OpenCL benchMark : 0.319616                                                                               
> Exiting                                                                                                   
> Shutting down                                                                                             


lower benchmark is better (yes, lower!)
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: AlterEgo on November 18, 2015, 11:51:40 am
And now you mention it, it is very distracting. 

so you were a happy user till you read this topic  ;D
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: Paul2660 on November 18, 2015, 12:24:46 pm
Must must be the fact, I most of the time am not making those adjustments at a 100% view.  I tend to keep the entire file in view for that, just my workflow. 

But it is strange to see it.

Paul C
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on November 18, 2015, 12:27:00 pm
Ok,

So I checked if the Auto,Auto was on for HW accel, and it is. I really had not messed with default setting as far as I remember.
Doug, that was a interesting point on the cache, and I use a 2560x1600/30" dual screens, and it was set to the default, I think it was 1152, SO perhaps this needs to be at least 1600px ?

And for the log file. Weird but I did a search in the P1 folder and subfolders, but no file came up with "*.log" extension/?


No worries Paul...but I should mention, when you do critical focus work, and you need to be accurate to compile files, or even just see the changes as a before after WHILE(In case someone suggest me to use the side by side view/it actualy might help, but also complexing the workflow) doing the raw processing..its VITAL to know the changes being made, specially when they are small ones.

The "wink" as you call it...
I say its 2 images slipped between the actual image before edit and post edit...and no matter how you slice it, it erases the brains set point of logging what the image was, to what the change is you made.  Hard to convince anyone when they don't make small 100% view alterations.

I did a test to the GPU and the FPS was on average 1750(~1650-1850). I also did a 3DBench, but the 2003 version as the file is 1.6GB for the latest and I bet its full of crap, so not installing it.I saved that log.
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: AlterEgo on November 18, 2015, 12:54:32 pm
And for the log file. Weird but I did a search in the P1 folder and subfolders, but no file came up with "*.log" extension/?

if Windows then it is somewhere in place like = C:\Documents and Settings\Administrator\AppData\Local\CaptureOne\Logs (or replace Administrator with your user id)
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on November 18, 2015, 03:35:59 pm
Ya, my second post has the OS...I should add it to my first

Interesting find!
...

2015-11-18 08:58:56.434> Logging is now active.
2015-11-18 08:58:56.601> OpenCL initialization...
2015-11-18 08:58:56.677> OpenCL : found platform NVIDIA CUDA, OpenCL Version : OpenCL 1.2 CUDA 7.5.0
2015-11-18 08:58:56.699> OpenCL : Benchmark previously failed. OpenCL disabled
2015-11-18 08:58:57.170> OpenCL initialization...
2015-11-18 08:58:57.170> OpenCL : found platform NVIDIA CUDA, OpenCL Version : OpenCL 1.2 CUDA 7.5.0
2015-11-18 08:58:57.195> OpenCL : Benchmark previously failed. OpenCL disabled
2015-11-18 09:05:06.382> OpenCL initialization...
2015-11-18 09:05:06.382> OpenCL : found platform NVIDIA CUDA, OpenCL Version : OpenCL 1.2 CUDA 7.5.0
2015-11-18 09:05:06.399> OpenCL : Benchmark previously failed. OpenCL disabled
2015-11-18 11:28:57.062> Exiting
2015-11-18 11:28:57.063> Shutting down
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: AlterEgo on November 18, 2015, 04:03:05 pm
Ya, my second post has the OS...I should add it to my first

Interesting find!
...

2015-11-18 08:58:56.434> Logging is now active.
2015-11-18 08:58:56.601> OpenCL initialization...
2015-11-18 08:58:56.677> OpenCL : found platform NVIDIA CUDA, OpenCL Version : OpenCL 1.2 CUDA 7.5.0
2015-11-18 08:58:56.699> OpenCL : Benchmark previously failed. OpenCL disabled
2015-11-18 08:58:57.170> OpenCL initialization...
2015-11-18 08:58:57.170> OpenCL : found platform NVIDIA CUDA, OpenCL Version : OpenCL 1.2 CUDA 7.5.0
2015-11-18 08:58:57.195> OpenCL : Benchmark previously failed. OpenCL disabled
2015-11-18 09:05:06.382> OpenCL initialization...
2015-11-18 09:05:06.382> OpenCL : found platform NVIDIA CUDA, OpenCL Version : OpenCL 1.2 CUDA 7.5.0
2015-11-18 09:05:06.399> OpenCL : Benchmark previously failed. OpenCL disabled
2015-11-18 11:28:57.062> Exiting
2015-11-18 11:28:57.063> Shutting down

here is your answer it seems - check the nvidia drivers ! use the ones that are stable and not most recent game ready ones just in case... you are not gaming
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on November 18, 2015, 06:39:36 pm
Yes AlterEgo...looks like checking this might do the trick.
Is there a specific way to go about installing older drivers?
Other than deleting it, and have the older extracted file with the right driver file, or dll ready when it prompts?
Well, I'll give it a spin, and see how it goes.

Perhaps nVidia or C1 should update their compatibility as well.


As far as what Doug brought up...I should update that as well...Any idea what I should set it as? I'm thinking the max that teh C1 edit screen allows on a 30" screen
I would have to do a PrintScreen, paste that into a file and calculate the space the image takes up and aprox that into the C1 Preferneces to render..I think that should work.
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: AlterEgo on November 18, 2015, 08:46:17 pm
Yes AlterEgo...looks like checking this might do the trick.
Is there a specific way to go about installing older drivers?
Other than deleting it, and have the older extracted file with the right driver file, or dll ready when it prompts?
Well, I'll give it a spin, and see how it goes.

I'd suggest to note what is the current version of the driver then I 'd uninstall the driver completely and then check what Windows Update suggests to install (means not from Nvidia or EVGA website)... 

for example for my GTX870M Nvidia itself has

GeForce Game Ready Driver - WHQL
Version: 358.91 - Release Date: Mon Nov 09, 2015

but I am still using the version from Dec 07, 2014 (so Windows says) - not the bleeding edge, but no issues... installed from M$.

C1 reports my driver as
2015-11-18 20:46:56.600> OpenCL Device : GeForce GTX 870M
2015-11-18 20:46:56.600> OpenCL Driver Version : 344.91



Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on November 18, 2015, 10:48:50 pm
It didn't suggest, it just loaded a generic vga with low res.  So I went back 5 months. I will go back further, BUT before I do, I read about the 3D vision feature, the nVida Experince and the HD Audio, which all 3 I opted out of installing as I don't game. Can any of these disable installing some feature that C1 needs?  Or does JUST the driver cut it?
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on November 19, 2015, 04:12:13 am
It didn't suggest, it just loaded a generic vga with low res.  So I went back 5 months. I will go back further, BUT before I do, I read about the 3D vision feature, the nVida Experince and the HD Audio, which all 3 I opted out of installing as I don't game. Can any of these disable installing some feature that C1 needs?  Or does JUST the driver cut it?

Phil,

Rather than continue this guess work?  Why don't you simply make a support case with us?

David
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on November 19, 2015, 04:14:08 am
Ok,

So I checked if the Auto,Auto was on for HW accel, and it is. I really had not messed with default setting as far as I remember.
Doug, that was a interesting point on the cache, and I use a 2560x1600/30" dual screens, and it was set to the default, I think it was 1152, SO perhaps this needs to be at least 1600px ?

And for the log file. Weird but I did a search in the P1 folder and subfolders, but no file came up with "*.log" extension/?


No worries Paul...but I should mention, when you do critical focus work, and you need to be accurate to compile files, or even just see the changes as a before after WHILE(In case someone suggest me to use the side by side view/it actualy might help, but also complexing the workflow) doing the raw processing..its VITAL to know the changes being made, specially when they are small ones.

The "wink" as you call it...
I say its 2 images slipped between the actual image before edit and post edit...and no matter how you slice it, it erases the brains set point of logging what the image was, to what the change is you made.  Hard to convince anyone when they don't make small 100% view alterations.

I did a test to the GPU and the FPS was on average 1750(~1650-1850). I also did a 3DBench, but the 2003 version as the file is 1.6GB for the latest and I bet its full of crap, so not installing it.I saved that log.

1152 is not default.  You must have reduced it at a point in time.  Go at least to 2560.

Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: AlterEgo on November 19, 2015, 09:12:00 am
It didn't suggest, it just loaded a generic vga with low res.  So I went back 5 months. I will go back further, BUT before I do, I read about the 3D vision feature, the nVida Experince and the HD Audio, which all 3 I opted out of installing as I don't game. Can any of these disable installing some feature that C1 needs?  Or does JUST the driver cut it?
when you do search for a new hardware in dev. management Windows shall detect NVidia and offer to download drivers (that is if you totally removed old ones from the system, to prevent Windows from reusing old ones)
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on November 23, 2015, 02:34:02 pm
OK, so this is the new log after some driver updates and reboots.

2015-11-23 11:27:51.699> Logging is now active.
2015-11-23 11:27:51.699> CPU: GenuineIntel [Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 CPU 860 @ 2.80GHz]
2015-11-23 11:27:51.699> CPU features: MMX, SSE, SSE2, SSE3, SSSE3, SSE41, SSE42, CX8, RDTSCP, POPCNT
2015-11-23 11:27:51.892> OpenCL initialization...
2015-11-23 11:27:51.972> OpenCL : found platform NVIDIA CUDA, OpenCL Version : OpenCL 1.2 CUDA 7.5.0
2015-11-23 11:27:52.005> OpenCL Device : GeForce GTX 970
2015-11-23 11:27:52.005> OpenCL Driver Version : 358.91
2015-11-23 11:27:52.005> OpenCL Compute Units : 13
2015-11-23 11:27:52.286> OpenCL : Loading kernels
2015-11-23 11:27:53.105> OpenCL : Loading kernels finished
2015-11-23 11:27:53.105> OpenCL : Benchmarking
2015-11-23 11:27:53.271> OpenCL : Initialization completed
2015-11-23 11:27:53.271> OpenCL benchMark : 0.160480

I also changed the image pref to 2560


Oddly, this hasn't helped, still a blurr image then a brightness image, and then the image we're supposed to see.  Granted its a split second faster as I notice, but not much help.

So some of you see this issue, but according to the solutions provided, we should NOT be seeing them?
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on November 23, 2015, 02:48:45 pm
OK, so this is the new log after some driver updates and reboots.

2015-11-23 11:27:51.699> Logging is now active.
2015-11-23 11:27:51.699> CPU: GenuineIntel [Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 CPU 860 @ 2.80GHz]
2015-11-23 11:27:51.699> CPU features: MMX, SSE, SSE2, SSE3, SSSE3, SSE41, SSE42, CX8, RDTSCP, POPCNT
2015-11-23 11:27:51.892> OpenCL initialization...
2015-11-23 11:27:51.972> OpenCL : found platform NVIDIA CUDA, OpenCL Version : OpenCL 1.2 CUDA 7.5.0
2015-11-23 11:27:52.005> OpenCL Device : GeForce GTX 970
2015-11-23 11:27:52.005> OpenCL Driver Version : 358.91
2015-11-23 11:27:52.005> OpenCL Compute Units : 13
2015-11-23 11:27:52.286> OpenCL : Loading kernels
2015-11-23 11:27:53.105> OpenCL : Loading kernels finished
2015-11-23 11:27:53.105> OpenCL : Benchmarking
2015-11-23 11:27:53.271> OpenCL : Initialization completed
2015-11-23 11:27:53.271> OpenCL benchMark : 0.160480

I also changed the image pref to 2560


Oddly, this hasn't helped, still a blurr image then a brightness image, and then the image we're supposed to see.  Granted its a split second faster as I notice, but not much help.

So some of you see this issue, but according to the solutions provided, we should NOT be seeing them?

Phil - see reply 60 above.  Its hard for me (anyone) really know what's going on without having full spec access and the full details.

As an idea if you want to see faster updates for something like dialling in Sharpening, Use the Focus tool.  Drag it out of the tool tabs and enlarge.  Keep the viewer at fit screen size.

This way, only a smaller area of the image is being continually calculated at 100%

David

Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on November 23, 2015, 03:12:18 pm
The sharpening is now instant.....It looks like the top main Exposure sliders that are doing the 2 images before the actual.

I'll take a look over #60
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: Phil Indeblanc on November 23, 2015, 04:11:51 pm
Phil,

Rather than continue this guess work?  Why don't you simply make a support case with us?

David


Its teh guess work of all the expereinces here. I don't want to take any resources away from Phase One and promote increase of prices for digital backs :-)
Title: Re: Does anyone else have problems with C1's inability to "render" in realtime?
Post by: David Grover / Capture One on November 24, 2015, 11:05:36 am

Its teh guess work of all the expereinces here. I don't want to take any resources away from Phase One and promote increase of prices for digital backs :-)

But you have paid for support, Phil... so you may as well use it!

David