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Author Topic: Canon sows FUD  (Read 34717 times)

AlterEgo

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Re: Canon sows FUD
« Reply #40 on: September 10, 2015, 04:32:28 pm »

The point of FUD, as Michael notes, is to minimize user defection.

"FUD is generally a strategic attempt to influence perception by disseminating negative and dubious or false information."

so where Canon says anything negative, dubious or false ? Michael used the wrong word (proprietary formats will lead to disaster, etc... right ? that was/is classic FUD) and now he (and you) just trying to invent a new definition of what FUD is... certainly there is a marketing intent behind Canon's PR... but it is not FUD as it is classically defined - no negative, dubious or false there...
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dwswager

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Re: Canon sows FUD
« Reply #41 on: September 10, 2015, 09:54:17 pm »


Now we have Canon announcing that they are developing a 120 Megapixel DSLR and an 8K video camera. No anticipated date for delivery, just that they are "in development".

Does this now seem to anyone reminiscent of IBM's FUD strategy from years past?

Just say'n.

Michael


Hmm...I would rather they indicate they would deliver 24MP and 50MP sensors with better SNR characteristics.  Realistically, what is the market for a 120MP 135 sized sensor unless there is a spectacular introduction of new technology.
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eronald

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Re: Canon sows FUD
« Reply #42 on: September 10, 2015, 10:08:05 pm »

I can only assume Canon didn't fully realise what Sony was up to and capable of.

The latest Sony sensor is a good device, but not that much better than the D810 except it is BSI; however the *camera* it is in, with the addition of on-sensor AF for Canon lenses, a stabiliser, fullframe internal 4K video, is a nasty one-stop shopping competitor to every single product which Canon markets in the prosumer space. An incredible general purpose bag-filler. And things will get worse for Canon as Sony ratchets up the bandwidth of the stacked interface circuitry.allowing them to get incredible hirez frame rates.

What has happened to Canon is that Sony doesn't have an existing range of stabilised lenses they want to keep in play, or any overpriced video products, so they are free to innovate. Canon couldn't introduce in-body stabilisation, and doesn't want to let their SLRs do movies anymore, to protect their video range.
 
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synn

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Re: Canon sows FUD
« Reply #43 on: September 11, 2015, 01:57:20 am »

Jesus Tapdancing Christ, so much discussions about the semantics of FUD.  Here, let me break it down for you.

F - Instilling fear in the minds of existing Canon customers that if they jump ship, they wont be able to enjoy that sweet 120MP DSLR eventually
U - Making existing customers and on the fence potential customers (And even some customers of rivals) feel uncertain if Sony can create something similar
D - Until a product is shipped, this remains vaporware. Hence, deceiving people that something is DEFINITELY coming, when there is no guarantee for it other than Canon's word.

As someone who has worked for many years in marketing, I can assure you. If Canon wanted to do some guerrilla marketing, they would have sent this info as a CR3 rumor or whatever to Canon Rumors. Then it will get picked up by all the news syndicate blogs and there will be chatter. Which is exactly what they (And all the other manufacturers) are doing with actual products. The fact that they are going all official with this quite simply means damage control. FUD is a time tested tactic to do that.
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hjulenissen

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Re: Canon sows FUD
« Reply #44 on: September 11, 2015, 02:10:01 am »

surely reducing readout noise @ low gains is good, but the wording was about DR (and low readout noise is just one component there), so you have a raw example illustrating 11 stops from some Nikon D8** series ?
Here is a paper suggesting that the Canon 20D can (using multiple exposures) record between 9 and 20 stops of DR, depending on the scene. The largest DR is available when the "bright" stuff is a single point-source, the smallest DR when half the scene is covered by the bright stuff:

https://graphics.stanford.edu/papers/glare_removal/glare_removal.pdf

For my own part, under-exposure is a real thing, especially as camera manufacturers continually make it hard to expose their cameras properly, or photographer incompetence, stressed situation, flash misfire,.... When under-exposing a scene, glare may not be limiting the shadow recovery, but noise sure is.
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Otto Phocus

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Re: Canon sows FUD
« Reply #45 on: September 11, 2015, 07:57:42 am »

Some people appear to be missing the point, and interpreting FUD in a way that is not what is meant by it.
Michael

Well, it is clear that some people on this forum are interpreting FUD in a way that is not what is meant by it.   ;D
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Canon sows FUD
« Reply #46 on: September 11, 2015, 09:08:17 am »

Here is a paper suggesting that the Canon 20D can (using multiple exposures) record between 9 and 20 stops of DR, depending on the scene. The largest DR is available when the "bright" stuff is a single point-source, the smallest DR when half the scene is covered by the bright stuff:

https://graphics.stanford.edu/papers/glare_removal/glare_removal.pdf

For my own part, under-exposure is a real thing, especially as camera manufacturers continually make it hard to expose their cameras properly, or photographer incompetence, stressed situation, flash misfire,.... When under-exposing a scene, glare may not be limiting the shadow recovery, but noise sure is.

I have been annoyed for quite a while by the exposure systems. The result is that for landscape shooting I simply bracket everything and choose the optimal exposure in Lightroom. For my Nikon D810 I'm currently trying out the highlight weighted metering method. I have set the adjustment to be one stop over the metering and have been bracketing 0EV, +1EV and +2EV to see how this metering would work in practical scenes. What I have found so far is the sometimes the +1EV will clip, but the 0EV seems to never clip. I haven't got enough samples to be sure, but it looks that way to me. If this is consistent then I can basically stop bracketing the D810 and shoot with this mode and be sure not to blow the highlights and only in extreme cases bracket to protect the shadows. So if my continued testing of this method will result in this conclusion then this is great. On my Canon 5DS R I will need to continue bracket as there is no such metering method and the DR is not high enough.

Hans Kruse

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Re: Canon sows FUD
« Reply #47 on: September 11, 2015, 09:11:21 am »

Back in the day (and I know many here will remember), when IBM was king, if another company started shipping a computer that was faster or in some way better than anything that IBM then had, they would quickly announce a new model that – on promise at least – blew the competition into the weeds.

At that time, the slogan in business and academia was "No one ever got fired for buying IBM".

Now we have Canon announcing that they are developing a 120 Megapixel DSLR and an 8K video camera. No anticipated date for delivery, just that they are "in development".

Does this now seem to anyone reminiscent of IBM's FUD strategy from years past?

Just say'n.

Michael


I don't believe this is FUD. I haven't seen such announcement result in being used in final products. It's very different from the situation with IBM in the old days. There is no comparison.

chez

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Re: Canon sows FUD
« Reply #48 on: September 11, 2015, 09:44:36 am »

And I think they will still beat Sony in the race for number 1... Wasn't Sony that said 5 years ago that their target was to be number 1?

In the last 5 years, Sony exploded into the camera world. Just think where we would be without Sony pushing the butts of Canon and Nikon.
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AlterEgo

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Re: Canon sows FUD
« Reply #49 on: September 11, 2015, 10:47:02 am »

F - Instilling fear in the minds of existing Canon customers that if they jump ship, they wont be able to enjoy that sweet 120MP DSLR eventually

you can always jump back any time... and now if you jump to 36/40mp you are already leaving 50mp... 50mp > 36/40mp... you even don't need to sell Canon optics if you buy 40mp Sony camera... and why'd you jump if you want even more mp which Canon already have ? and also it assures others that Sony will be answering the challenge and even more mp will come from Sony than current 40mp.... so you are just being creative with words like with exposure/metering in your JPG examples in a recent topic about MF vs 35mm...


U - Making existing customers and on the fence potential customers (And even some customers of rivals) feel uncertain if Sony can create something similar

again choice of wording - they are making their own customers feel certain that they will deliver even more mp sensors with then already delivered more mp in production camera and me as a Sony user it makes feel that I am getting even more mp from Sony too  ;D

D - Until a product is shipped, this remains vaporware. Hence, deceiving people that something is DEFINITELY coming, when there is no guarantee for it other than Canon's word.

history shows that 50mp made it to the production...

---

bottom line, Canon does not disseminating negative and dubious or false information, like in case with DNG vs proprietary formats... they are disseminating marketing information to gains something, but that is not FUD because of the absence of negative and dubious or false information.



« Last Edit: September 11, 2015, 10:49:13 am by AlterEgo »
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John Koerner

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Re: Canon sows FUD
« Reply #50 on: September 11, 2015, 11:15:47 am »

Does this now seem to anyone reminiscent of IBM's FUD strategy from years past?
Just say'n.
Michael

Based on the proof Matthew and Ron have offered, Canon is offering a continuous stream of FUD.

A 50mm hinted about in 2008, becoming a reality in 2015, is a joke.

A 120 mm hinted about in 2010, never becoming a reality, and morphing into a renewed "promise" in 2015 is a lie.

An announcement is a foreshadowing of something that actually materializes in 6-months to a year (at most).

Based on the proof, Canon is simply spreading lies (or, at best, "verbalized wishes" or pipe-dreams).



Either ship it already, or shut up till it's ready.
Michael

Couldn't agree more.

If you really have the finished product, then announce the shipping date with the revelation.

Otherwise, if it's so far from being a usable reality that you can't forsee its ship date, then (as you say) keep your mouth shut until it is.

Anything else is a cry for help (call it FUD or SOS).

Jack
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: Canon sows FUD
« Reply #51 on: September 11, 2015, 11:24:31 am »

In the last 5 years, Sony exploded into the camera world. Just think where we would be without Sony pushing the butts of Canon and Nikon.

We would be more or less where we are today. I think "exploded" is very much exaggerated. I hardly see anybody using Sony A7 cameras when I go to London, Paris, Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Lisbon (where I live), or Muscat. What I see is still the prevalence of people/tourists using entry level DSLR (consumer level) and the prevalence of pros using DSLRs.

I don't think that Canon or Nikon have felt the pressure (yet?), especially Canon have been showing their muscle in the last couple of years, releasing top quality lens after top quality lens, completing revamping their f2.8 pro zoom lenses, their TS lenses, some f1.4 primes, new top quality 16-35 f4 and 24-70 f4 zooms, 11-24 f 4 zoom, their 400, 500, and 600 mm lenses, etc. This is just lenses.

As for their DSLRs, they lagged behind in resolution for a while, but are now the top ones again. I know all about the DR, so no need to mention:) I could mention the Sony compressed raw thing:)

Sony all but have abandoned their NEX APSC line, never made it into a system... no new cameras, no new lenses (even Zeiss and Sigma seem to have forgotten that they exist). The FF A7 seems is gaining momentum, but really, sometimes it seems that only serious hobbyists and some fine art pros are using it. But I am all for it, after all, I am using it and have committed to it. Hope it does not go the way of the dodo, as with other Sony "experiences"...

Hans Kruse

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Re: Canon sows FUD
« Reply #52 on: September 11, 2015, 11:46:37 am »

Funny you should mention saying something about this five years ago.

Real artists ship.

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/2773376832/canon120mpsensor

Where can I buy it?

If you read the article it says clearly that Canon did not announce any specific plans for it. It was just shown as a technology that could be built. This is not uncommon for companies to do such a proof of concept. Many more are done internally than are even mentioned externally. This is a normal part of developing new technology. But you seem not to know or understand this even though it was clearly stated in the article....

Hans Kruse

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Re: Canon sows FUD
« Reply #53 on: September 11, 2015, 11:48:50 am »

Based on the proof Matthew and Ron have offered, Canon is offering a continuous stream of FUD.

A 50mm hinted about in 2008, becoming a reality in 2015, is a joke.

A 120 mm hinted about in 2010, never becoming a reality, and morphing into a renewed "promise" in 2015 is a lie.

An announcement is a foreshadowing of something that actually materializes in 6-months to a year (at most).

Based on the proof, Canon is simply spreading lies (or, at best, "verbalized wishes" or pipe-dreams).



Couldn't agree more.

If you really have the finished product, then announce the shipping date with the revelation.

Otherwise, if it's so far from being a usable reality that you can't forsee its ship date, then (as you say) keep your mouth shut until it is.

Anything else is a cry for help (call it FUD or SOS).

Jack

These were not announcements of products to come. They were just proof of concepts. You do not seem to know that companies make lots of such internally. Most them do not end up in specific products in the form they were made.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Canon sows FUD
« Reply #54 on: September 11, 2015, 11:59:24 am »

Frankly, I'm amazed how poorly people understand basic concepts. Reading/comprehension skills also seem scarce these days.

FUD is a known strategy, what Canon does is not FUD, because they are not spreading disinformation. They are just informing the world about their development projects. On the same day they also sent out a press release about another development project, a material appearance image-processing technology that uses UV-curable printer ink to reproduce surface structure and provide weather resistance.

Otherwise, why not call this Sony presentation FUD as well (and it would be an equally wrong use of the term FUD). And that's just one example of what many companies do all the time, providing information about their own activities.

No negative and dubious or false information to be found in the press release.

Press releases are usually pretty easy to read because the headline already tells what to expect. They use words like, company "X" is developing / develops / developed, or announces, or reveals, or celebrates, etc. Only product announcements hold something of a promise, and they are usually kept. Other announcements are to inform the public, which also helps to inform investors.

What Michael possibly had in mind, was the technique of "SPIN selling", which is a sales technique. He would also be wrong about that, although some of the SPIN principles can be part of a company's communication strategy.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: September 11, 2015, 12:05:17 pm by BartvanderWolf »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Canon sows FUD
« Reply #55 on: September 11, 2015, 12:24:58 pm »

Hi,

Could be, could be not. I would say decent lenses ever made are a good match for high resolution sensors. I have right now an A7rII and I really find that all lenses I tested work decently well with it, so I don't think lenses are an issue.

What I see are a lot of artefacts, bad edges and some cases of moiré, even if it quite mild.

Canon could release a high resolution sensor. It would give up some DR at base ISO for sure, but how many of Canon's customers are shooting base ISO anyway.

Canon has revamped a lot of their lenses recently, and they may deliver sensor resolution to match.

I would expect that Canon has a roadmap of it's own.

Now, comparing with computers, IBM, DEC and the PC revolution may be adequate or it may be not. Photographers are often artists and no computer geeks. But I must say, MFD enthusiasts are what reminds me of minicomputer people. In big computing mainframes still exist or persist. But, the minicomputer is very, very dead.

Best regards
Erik





Back in the day (and I know many here will remember), when IBM was king, if another company started shipping a computer that was faster or in some way better than anything that IBM then had, they would quickly announce a new model that – on promise at least – blew the competition into the weeds.

At that time, the slogan in business and academia was "No one ever got fired for buying IBM".

Now we have Canon announcing that they are developing a 120 Megapixel DSLR and an 8K video camera. No anticipated date for delivery, just that they are "in development".

Does this now seem to anyone reminiscent of IBM's FUD strategy from years past?

Just say'n.

Michael

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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Canon sows FUD
« Reply #56 on: September 11, 2015, 12:38:05 pm »

... it's so far from being a usable reality...

Quote
When installed in a camera, the newly developed sensor was able to capture images enabling the distinguishing of lettering on the side of an airplane flying at a distance of approximately 18 km from the shooting location.

michael

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Re: Canon sows FUD
« Reply #57 on: September 11, 2015, 01:10:55 pm »

So many axes to grind, so little time.

In any event, my understanding of the word FUD is exactly as I used it and as I first described it. Scroll back a few pages. Nothing has changed. (Here is one definition...the one that's at the top of the page when you Google the word..."fear, uncertainty and doubt, usually evoked intentionally in order to put a competitor at a disadvantage".

The Canon announcement of a 120MP camera is designed to sow FOD in my view. No detailed specs, no delivery date and no price. It's a "here is what we're thinking of" type of announcement, and depending on timing can either be innocent or FUD. I see it as FUD.

Sony's announcement today of the A7s II is a straightforward product announcement; detailed specs, price and delivery date (this month).

I don't know why this difference eludes some.

Michael
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AlterEgo

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Re: Canon sows FUD
« Reply #58 on: September 11, 2015, 03:23:13 pm »

I don't know why this difference eludes some.

example of the real FUD - every new camera has new raw format... this is false information, clearly known to the writer that it is false, hence a genuine FUD
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michael

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Re: Canon sows FUD
« Reply #59 on: September 11, 2015, 03:31:06 pm »

Why am I not surprised that you are flogging this horse once again.

OK, your point is made. You are totally off base, but I will not respond further because it simply would be feeding a troll.

This is your one and only notice that you're out of bounds due to unnecessary repetition of an inappropriate accusation.

My patience does have limits. You have just hit that limit.

Michael
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